from KDLoup@aol.com Sat Mar 1 09:36:19 1997 Subject: varnish Does anyone have any experience using Behr 45 Sunblocking U.V.I. SuperSparVarnish? Any pros or cons would be appreciated. Kurt from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Mar 1 09:58:33 1997 Subject: Re: Garrison Rod Did it make your back crawl just a little to cast a $10K rod? Yes it did--I restrained my usual inpulse to see if I could cast all the wayacross the parking lot. We were VERY polite. from lawdevil@ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 10:13:08 1997 ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: #100 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: The next 100th for me will be the number of students that I've taughtrod making first hand - to date there are 67. Wayne, I wonder how many THOUSAND rods have been built with your book? I'm on my first but I suspect a lot of people wouldn't have tackled itwithout the aid of your book. CONGRATULATIONS! Mike -- Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly-fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704- 743-5625 from jfoster@gte.net Sat Mar 1 11:06:48 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id LAA01053 for; Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:06:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Archives? Reed Curry has supplied us with a whole new group of tapers (Pezon/Michel,F E Thomas, Jim Payne, and a Halstead) check them out in the taper archive Thanks Reed Jerry from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 1 14:09:37 1997 Subject: Re: hexrod In a message dated 97-02-28 21:07:34 EST, you write: WOWIf you haven't run into it before check out L W's in the links list..knock you socks off international links.. Jerry Hi Jerry - for those of us who are not all that steeped in computer/netexpertise, would you please go into a bit of detail on the above? Ie, howdoI access the above for checking it out? Thanks and Best Regards,Richard from GLohkamp@aol.com Sat Mar 1 14:46:35 1997 Subject: rod builders meeting Hello All l'am going to post the notice for the Portland Oregon rod builders meetingagain l see new builders to the list all the time so just in case l've missedsomeone ,it will be April 12th 1997 in TroutDale Oregon which is about 18miles east of Portland . This is a one day meeting round table disscussion .So far we have 25 builders coming from all around the NorthWest . RayGouldwill be there with any luck his new book will be printed in time for themeeting . Ed Hartzell , Jack Byrd , Tom Fulk as well as Philip Lipton , AlBellinger to name afew . Harold Demarest will be attending he is truely agreat man we are lucky he can make it . There is still room for 20 morepeople lf you would like some detailed information about the meetingpleasefeel free to contact me . Hope you can make it .Gary Lohkamp503-666-4834 glohkamp@aol.com from jfoster@gte.net Sat Mar 1 14:46:59 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id OAA06157 for; Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:46:53 -0600 Subject: Re: hexrod Richard, all Generally when I refer to the archives I'm talking about Http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm After that I kind of use a shorthand to refer to the specific page I'mrefering to. Each of the pages has an icon ( a little picture ) and/or sometimes ahighlighted and underlined text section. These are clickable items,meaning if you drag your mouse curser ( you MUST have a mouse ) over anyof the special items the normal curser will turn to a little hand with afinger (index finger) which means you can click now. This will cause thepage under the icon to spool to your screen. and so on and so on. I usually refer to the "links of interest" as just "links". etc. Most of the problems people have are related to AOL or old AOL browsers.I'd suggest getting the newest version off the AOL page if my home pageis splattered all over your screen. I'm sorry about the rma text.. The additional new line sequences won'tslow down your transfer but it is hard to read.. The problem is when Iupload the ram text from sirronald I have to delete the soft returnswhich cause automatic line wrapping. The Hard returns (return Key )sometimes cause and additional line feed accompaning them. That is whatcauses the addition line in your output. It is also caused by listserverusers (all of us) who hit the return key while sending messages unsteadof letting the mailer wrap the lines for you. Usually the extra line is a function of your local setup..somewhere, orAOL. Richard if you would post your exact machine type and AOL browserversion maybe someone can tell you how to correct the extra line feed. The other problem is since Mike "like" Biondo has turned on the newarchive process I'm getting more X-400 (addressing) information than themessage is long, which also makes the messages look ugly and hard tosort through. to download the rest of last month. I know some of this is confusing but we'll get it right for you If this is all nonsense Richard let me know your phone no. and I'll giveyou a call Jerry from whensel@ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 15:36:46 1997 ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: #100 You wrote: Occassionally there are those that finish there first rod that willshare that with the list. Well, earlier this evening I started my 100th rod.Fifteen years ago I questioned whether I would ever get the first onefinished let alone a hundred. There were many nights that I would shut offthe lights in the basement and finally make it to bed only to wonder if Ihadn't started something that I may not be able to finish. It doesn't seemlike it's been that long ago.On the Winston Waters tape, Glen Brackett talks of reaching thatmilestone in his career. Gary Howells had introduced him to rod making andlike the rest of us Glen had all the questions. Apparently Gary, at one pointin time, told Glen that after he had made his 100th rod to ask his questionsagain. Glen doesn't talk of it further. It seems that as we mature atsomething the why questions sort of transend into knowledge but yet somequestions remain - only our focus is keener. I've often said that if I canonly tell all the things that went wrong - you would have to be creative incoming up with 'new' mistakes.The next 100th for me will be the number of students that I've taughtrod making first hand - to date there are 67. In the classes the excitementstarts about wednesday with the gluing of the first sections. Up to thatpoint the tension can be felt as everyone struggles with the new experience.And for some that excitement will last a lifetime. I know that I'm stillcaught up with it myself - it has become food for the soul.Now I've got it figured that in making each rod about 8 cubic feet ofshavings are generated - that means that I've planed away 3 dump truck loadsto make about 20 pounds of fly rods. Gee - a culm weights from 7 1/2 to 9pounds - I could have saved some time and just slapped a few guides on acouple of culms. And speaking of time - I figure that I've missed 5000 hours(or there 'bout) of laying on the couch and watching TV.Dear Wayne,Congrats go to you. I have finished three rods after buying your tapes and book. I was remote student and I thankyou. I am building up in the near future a 6'6" your taper and it will go in a local fly shop BUSINESS IS BUSNIESS: i PAY WITH EVERY THING NOW WITH CASH ORMONEY ORDER. MY QUESTION TO YOU DID I EVER PAY YOU FOR THE OVEN? IREMEMBER WHEN IT ARRIVED NOT SEEING A ENVOICE WITH A PRICE. I HONESTY DONT REMEMBER. PLEASE PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT I OWE YOU FOR THE OVEN. I FEEL I DIDNOT PAY YOU HOWEVER I WAS BUYING SO MANY THINGS FOR THISROD MAKING LOTS OF RECIEPTS WHEN AWAY CAUSE I DECIDED NOT TO FIGUREOUT HOW LONG OR HOW MUCH IT COST ME TO MAKE MY FIRST ROD. PLUS I HAVE TREIDTO STAY OUT OF DEVORCE COURTS. I EVEN GAVE MY WIFE A 7'6" ROD THEOTHER DAY AS AN ANNERVERFARY PRESENT. BILL IN DENVER Wayne from FFer4trout@aol.com Sat Mar 1 16:38:41 1997 Subject: Re: #100 Wayne, While some of us are just legends in our own minds, you're truely a legendinyour own time. Thanks for writting your book (&video) and all the helpoffered on this list too. When my finances allows, I'll be taking the big plunge - "The finalfrontier"! Then you can cut another notch in the grip of your wrapping machine. Don Burns PS - Congrad's on turning 100. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Mar 1 22:02:54 1997 00:02:22 -0500 Subject: long ago and far away Several years ago an elderly lady called me after an article on bamboorodsappeared in the newspaper. She had some old fishing tackle that she shedidnot want and asked if I would be interested.I am not a collector and I am not really interested in old rods, refinishingetc. The lady sounded so interesting and she was a fly fisherman so thewifeand I paid a visit.The Lady lived in a big old house on the lake with servants quarters, tenniscourts and formal gardens. A bygone age in Canada I'm afraid.I was shown a couple of Hardy bamboo Salmon rods, "brand new" with thepricetags still on them and a Hardy Uniqua reel in a leather case and a dozenfully dressed Salmon flys. The tackle had belonged to a relative that had been killed in the trenchesin 1916 and had been away when the telegramme arrived.I suggested that the reel might be worth something to a collector becauseitwas in such good condition but I was not so sure about double handedsalmonrods. The lady said take them, she was going to throw them away, I couldsell them if I wanted to.I put the rods in the corner of my workshop and never really touched them beautiful, all except one which was dog-eared and had obviously beenfished.I untied one of the rods and inspected it, the finish had melted down alittle but it was still straight( that is saying something for a 14ft rod).I inspected the grip and noticed that there were some scales attached tothecork.This got me thinking, was fly fishing the last thing the young Canadianofficer did before going to France for King and Country? I had such a sadfeeling, the scales had been on the rod for almost 80 years, back in an ageso different from what we live in now.To me this rod is priceless, it is a heroes rod.Terry Ackland from KDLoup@aol.com Sat Mar 1 23:08:57 1997 Subject: Varnish I have a refinish rod that is ready for guide wrapping and varnishing. Noneof the books that I have read have recommended any particular brand ofvarnish. I have been experimenting with Behr 45 Super Spar Varnish usingathinned amount as a color preserver prior to an unthinned dippedapplicationof varnish. Before I use this on my rod, can someone relate theirexperience with the above product or recommend a brand of varnish thathasgiven them good results? If a color preserver is used over the threadwrapsbefore varnishing with your recommended finish, please specify preserverandmethod. Thanks in advance. Kurt from whensel@ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 23:13:28 1997 ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Good Bye God Bless and Tight Lines Dear Everyone, I have built my rods the addiction is set tight in my brain and forever the rods will be made. Thanks to all...I read Harry Middleton book "The Bright Country" and I wish I had know him personally. I have decided to leave the internet because cycber space is an illusion that I have fallen into and had exspected more humanity than I found. Its not you its me..... Snail mail welcome: Bill Hensel4701 So delaware St.Englewood, Co 80110 Tel 1-303-783-3957 I have been to hell and back again I want to be free on the system of ...... you will find me on the water. Build more rods and laugh more and find love. Good bye if any one really cares it is doubted.... from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 2 08:08:55 1997 Subject: Re: long ago and far away Terry,What you just wrote sort of sums up for me just what this bamboo thingisall about.Thanks.Hank. from m.boretti@agonet.it Sun Mar 2 12:04:57 1997 mago.agonet.it (8.8.0/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA20183 for; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:07:59 +0100 Subject: RE Information to Mark Huff Dear Mark,I have a problems with E-mail system.I send this message from Rodmakers list, enclose the GIorgio Dallariadrrees.Sincerely,Marco. GIORGIO DALLARIVia Morane 4841100 ModenaItaly from sats@gte.net Sun Mar 2 12:14:34 1997 ; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 12:14:30 -0600 Subject: Rebuilding II Just as I suspected. I taped the guides on my experiment yesterday morning, before going tothe Frank Sargent sporting show, in Tampa. (I was tying for my club.) The rod worked well to about 45 feet. After that performance fell offrapidly. I believe the reason is that I removed far too much of the outerpower fibers. I think that while I'm casting with the tip section ofthe rod, everything's fine, but when I start putting enough power inmy cast to get the butt section there isn't enough there to "stand up"to the cast. This has led me to rethink my approach. I'm now thinking aboutthe FLEX of the rod, rather then it's taper. The way I see it right now flex is what gives a rod it'spersonality. A fast rod has less flex in the butt then a slower rod.I believe flex in a rod has two major components: I'll call the first"elasticity," the ability to bend from the rod's axis, and what I'llcall "snap," the speed and force with which the rod returns to is'taxis. Each quality brings something important to a rod. A rod that istoo stiff could break while fighting fish, (or even casting, if it wastoo ridged and too frail.) It evens out the power applied to ourcast. It can even add power from the double hall.Snap is what allows us to get the line out where we want it. Itactually transfers the energy stored in the bent rod to the fly line. The rod that I'm toying with now lacks the second quality in it'sbutt section. So for my next project, I'd like to approach the modification ofthe taper from this angle. The problem is, I don't know where tostart. I guess that if I were to bend enough bamboo fly rods, I'deventually get a "Feel" for what I wanted. I don't know enough peoplewho own bamboo fly rods that would allow me the opportunity ofdeveloping that feel. Any suggestions? p.s. I was bumped from the list for about 48 hours this weekend. If Idon't respond to a post, please try me direct.... Thanks Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Fl. sats@gte.net from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Sun Mar 2 18:44:10 1997 Subject: Leonard taper Two questions (actually one question and one request): When micing a rod, how much should one deduct for varnish? I suspectitshould vary with kind of finish etc, but is there some typical calculation? It's a 6' with a 11/64 ferrule.[The larger story here is that I miced one, but don't have muchconfidencein the numbers: and the measurements around the ferrule and grip are, ofcourse, estimates.] I would be quite grateful if someone could send memorereliable dimensions. --Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from jfoster@gte.net Sun Mar 2 19:15:10 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id TAA14236 for; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:15:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Leonard taper Speaking of tapers A new guy on the list Don DeLoach happens to have a beautiful 8' 6" E CPowell. I think you guys should coerse him into poping with the taper. I'll help, Don. I had a chance to cast it, talk about smooth Jerry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Mar 2 19:40:09 1997 Subject: Guide Wraps? Here is a question for you all... Has anyone ever had epoxy or varnish creep up the guide feet? A capillary action it looks like. It was not apparent on the first thin coat. But upon further applications the epoxy created a clump (?) under the guide feet.Any ideas or comments? Jon in Ithaca from jfoster@gte.net Sun Mar 2 21:10:33 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id VAA24792 for; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 21:10:30 -0600 Subject: tapers I know it's awful late but i finally got the grayrock 96 tapers posted a leonard, an fe thomas, a calcutta special, and a mystery rod.. i'm not sure i did them justice so you'd better check them out richard They have their own icon , grayrock 96 jerry from FFer4trout@aol.com Sun Mar 2 21:19:11 1997 Subject: Re: long ago and far away In a message dated 97-03-01 23:05:07 EST, you write: To me this rod is priceless, it is a heroes rod.Terry Ackland Hear, hear! from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Mar 2 21:36:17 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? At 20:23 02/03/97 +0000, Jon wrote:Here is a question for you all... Has anyone ever had epoxy or varnish creep up the guide feet? A capillary action it looks like. It was not apparent on the first thin coat. But upon further applications the epoxy created a clump (?) under the guide feet.Any ideas or comments? Jon in Ithaca Jon, Just stripped a rod that used varnish on the guide wraps and there was alittle bit of varnish under each foot - didn't measure depth but it may havebeen about 0.002". Suspect the varnish filled in the irregularities aroundthe guide foot when the guides wraps were coated. I know that I didn'tfile/grind/lap the guide feet flat prior to installation. Never use epoxy. regards, Don from rbrown@infocom.net Sun Mar 2 22:03:54 1997 login1.infocom.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA25473 for; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:05:50 -0600 Subject: Mail Problem Having problems with the bulletin board. This is a check. Thanks Rob Brown from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Mar 3 08:51:28 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? In a message dated 97-03-02 20:41:29 EST, you write: Here is a question for you all... Has anyone ever had epoxy or varnish creep up the guide feet? A capillary action it looks like. It was not apparent on the first thin coat. But upon further applications the epoxy created a clump (?) under the guide feet.Any ideas or comments? Jon in Ithaca Jon - If you mean varnish migrating out from under the wrap and along theguide and spreading out onto the bamboo to a point where the guide beginstoclimb steeply, that has happened to me when, (1) c/p not being used, (2) inan attempt to wet out the thread, thined the 1st coat maybe too much, andespecially, (3) when the first coat is put on too heavily coupled with (2),above.Regards,RTyree from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Mon Mar 3 09:56:02 1997 with BSMTP id 9699; Mon, 03 Mar 97 10:54:49 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9884; Mon, 3 Mar1997 10:54:48 -0500Subject: Re: #100 congratulations Wayne, that's a lot of shavings.Let you know when I finish my first. Binder is nowunder construction. Bob. from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Mar 3 10:35:50 1997 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA240986946; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:35:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Varnish I use a spar varnish made by Carver Tripp. It is titled marine super spar varnish and comes in a high gloss finish, which I prefer. I have also used Man- O-War high gloss and matte finish spar varnish. I didn't care for the matte finish and had some trouble with shiny streaks. I use a dip tube to apply the final coat of varnish over the guides, wraps and blank. No it doesn't create drips at the guides, and no it doesn't leave an ugly film on the guides. preservers, as well as flex coat and more recently Parks laquer. The laquer I used darkens the thread(Which is fine in most cases and original). I have found the best true color retention, (if that is your goal) with the alcohol based Gudebrod. I apply two 50% thinned coats of theGudebrod, followed by five coats of flex coat. I like the flex coats ease of use and it will fill gaps nicely (if you like that look, I do). If your using 3/0 thread then the build is not that drastic even with seven total coats of preserver. Following color preservation I brush a coat of spar varnish onto the wraps to check for a good seal. If the wraps are not completely sealed you will soon see a dark patch developing at a weak spot on the wrap, and will need to start over on that wrap(if the darkness bothers you). Once all the wraps are sealed and tested with the spar varnish I dip the entire section into a tube of spar varnish. Dipping over the guides gives you a seamless, hopefully flawless appearance. I'm still experimenting with color preserver combinations. Others may reach their desired goals with an easier method. Hope this helps. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from thezig@ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 3 11:45:13 1997 ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Leonard taper Jerry Foster wrote: Speaking of tapers A new guy on the list Don DeLoach happens to have a beautiful 8' 6" E CPowell. I think you guys should coerse him into poping with the taper. I'll help, Don. I had a chance to cast it, talk about smooth JerryIs it an E.C. or a Tony Maslan powell. The hookkeeper is the tipoff. Also Hollowbuilt or solid?jz from hood@hpesdah.fc.hp.com Mon Mar 3 11:58:17 1997 palrel3.hp.com with SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA26690 for (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA00389; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:58:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Some Numbers for Hollowbuilt Rods! David A. Hood wrote: Using Garrison's equations and Waynes 7'6" #5 rod as an example: Assumptions:Action length 75 feetCast length 40 inchesFerrule weight 0.22 ounces Cool! But did you mean Action length of 75 INCHES and Cast length or 40FEET? Of course, I live in an apartment and when I cast in here, thecasts are about 40 inches! Yea, what he said! I also assumed that bamboo is homogeneous in bothdensity and strength; this assumption will serve adequately for smallrods but not so well for very large rods. Davidhood@fc.hp.com from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Mon Mar 3 12:24:20 1997 2.0/2.12um) id KAA000.41; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:12:11 -0500 Subject: Re: #100 Wayne: What a milestone! May you experience as much success and enjoyment from your second hundred as your first. My wife (bless her) gave me copies of your video for Christmas last year and they've helped me greatly to further understandcane rodmaking. Thanks for all you've done to further "the art." Best regards, Rich Brown from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Mar 3 14:58:28 1997 with ESMTP id OAA10518; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:48:03 -0600 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA07554; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.8.3) with SMTP id TPUXBDAA; Mon, 3 Mar 199714:48:03 -0600 (Central Standard Time) boundary="BeyondBoundary_2_Mon_Mar_03_14:48:00_1997__4823" Subject: E.C. Powell 8'6" --BeyondBoundary_2_Mon_Mar_03_14:48:00_1997__4823 Jim, The rod was restored by Glenn Brackett at Winston, who is widelyacknowledgedas an expert on both Powell and Maslan. I asked Glenn what he thought andhesaid that in all probability it was E.C.'s work, citing the guide wraps andseveral other details. My Mom has had the rod since the early fifties(aboutthe time E.C. quit making rods, right?) so it may well have been one ofE.C.'slast. I'm pretty sure its hollow-built too. How can I find this out--I wasthinkingabout weighing it(?) I thought E.C. only built hollow rods. This was why hislonger rods were so good--they could be made so much lighter. The hookkeeper is a small snake guide--was this original equipment? Iassume itwas since Glenn's instructions were to restore the rod to its original spec. Don DeLoach P.S. I finally got a chance to take the rod on the water and it was awonderfulto spend the day with--my first fishing experience with a cane rod. I knowwhatyou mean about the tip action now Jerry; very supple and a joy to cast. Thebest part: after only about five minutes of fishing I hooked a fat, 17"rainbowthat I had to put on the reel when he ripped off about fifty feet of line onhis first run downstream. Several minutes later when I had landed andadmiredthe fish before releasing it, all I could think of was how the old roddeservedsuch a fitting return to its former glory when my Mom had last fishedwith itsome thirty years before. A great experience, and one that I'll neverforget! ------------------Original text Jerry Foster wrote: Speaking of tapers A new guy on the list Don DeLoach happens to have a beautiful 8' 6" E CPowell. I think you guys should coerse him into poping with the taper. I'll help, Don. I had a chance to cast it, talk about smooth JerryIs it an E.C. or a Tony Maslan powell. The hookkeeper is the tipoff. Also Hollowbuilt or solid?jz --BeyondBoundary_2_Mon_Mar_03_14:48:00_1997__4823 Part 1.2 Name: ATTRIBS.BNDType: unspecified type (application/octet- stream)Encoding: x-uuencode --BeyondBoundary_2_Mon_Mar_03_14:48:00_1997__4823-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 3 15:32:43 1997 17:31:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Rebuilding II Just as I suspected. I taped the guides on my experiment yesterday morning, before going tothe Frank Sargent sporting show, in Tampa. (I was tying for my club.) The rod worked well to about 45 feet. After that performance fell offrapidly. I believe the reason is that I removed far too much of the outerpower fibers. I think that while I'm casting with the tip section ofthe rod, everything's fine, but when I start putting enough power inmy cast to get the butt section there isn't enough there to "stand up"to the cast. This has led me to rethink my approach. I'm now thinking aboutthe FLEX of the rod, rather then it's taper. The way I see it right now flex is what gives a rod it'spersonality. A fast rod has less flex in the butt then a slower rod.I believe flex in a rod has two major components: I'll call the first"elasticity," the ability to bend from the rod's axis, and what I'llcall "snap," the speed and force with which the rod returns to is'taxis. Each quality brings something important to a rod. A rod that istoo stiff could break while fighting fish, (or even casting, if it wastoo ridged and too frail.) It evens out the power applied to ourcast. It can even add power from the double hall.Snap is what allows us to get the line out where we want it. Itactually transfers the energy stored in the bent rod to the fly line. The rod that I'm toying with now lacks the second quality in it'sbutt section. So for my next project, I'd like to approach the modification ofthe taper from this angle. The problem is, I don't know where tostart. I guess that if I were to bend enough bamboo fly rods, I'deventually get a "Feel" for what I wanted. I don't know enough peoplewho own bamboo fly rods that would allow me the opportunity ofdeveloping that feel. Any suggestions? p.s. I was bumped from the list for about 48 hours this weekend. If Idon't respond to a post, please try me direct.... Thanks Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Fl. sats@gte.net The softness in the butt section could be caused by not having a finishunder the grip. Cork is only moisture proof when highly compressed as in abottle cork or a gasket.Terry Ackland from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Mar 3 15:50:31 1997 Subject: A New 6' 3" I've been polishing some of the tapers lately and have a new base curve tip - .07005 - .07910 - .09515 - .11720 - .13425 - .14430 - .15935 - .18240 - .19445 - .20350 - .21655 - .22760 - .23765 - .24770 - .25375 - .253 Now if you run this through a 'hexy' program and compare it to the curve ofthe 7' 6" - the curve for this rod should be just a foreshortened version. Wayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Mar 3 16:31:08 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? Don Andersen wrote: Never use epoxy. regards, Don Hi Don,Pray tell. Why did you write "never use epoxy"??John from sats@gte.net Mon Mar 3 17:21:42 1997 ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:21:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Rebuilding II On Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:31:33 -0500, you wrote: The softness in the butt section could be caused by not having a finishunder the grip. Cork is only moisture proof when highly compressed as inabottle cork or a gasket.Terry Ackland I guess I wasn't clear in what I'm trying to do. I apologize. I had a 7 1/2ft butt section from an old rod. I scrounged a 7 1/2ft. tip section from another rod. My goal was to mate the twopiece into a 6 1/2 rod by removing 6in from each piece. That's the easy part, of course. (I've never been known to do thingsthe easy way....!) The hard part is getting the two to join without ahellofa' change in the taper at the ferrule. (I think there was morethen 1/32nd difference between the end of the tip section and thestart of the butt section. My solution was to shave the outside of the rod, one flat at a time,until I got the two to match. The problem is, (As you know) when you remove material from theOutside of a rod, you're removing the so-called "Power fibers" thething that puts a SNAP in a fly rod. I think I removed too much material around the ferrule of the buttsection. When I put enough pressure on the rod getting down into thetop of the butt section, it loses additional snap. Because I'm working from the outside, rather then the inside, computermodels won't do me much good. (I based my taper on a modification ofseveral rods that I checked with "HEXROD") If I had some Idea of theamount of usable outer fibers, I might be able to come up with amodification to the programs, but because each rod is different, Idon't. My solution is to check the "Flex" of the rod, removing just enoughmaterial from each section to have a smooth action and leaving enoughto keep the Snap. I AM learning a lot about Bamboo. The rod's fine as long as I don't go beyond it's capability. Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Fl.sats@gte.net from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Mon Mar 3 18:40:46 1997 Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:40:37 +0800 (WST) Subject: RE: Varnish On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I use a spar varnish made by Carver Tripp. It is titled marine super spar varnish and comes in a high gloss finish, which I prefer. I have also used Man- O-War high gloss and matte finish spar varnish. I didn't care for the matte finish and had some trouble with shiny streaks. I use a dip tube to apply the final coat of varnish over the guides, wraps and blank. No it doesn't create drips at the guides, and no it doesn't leave an ugly film on the guides. preservers, as well as flex coat and more recently Parks laquer. The laquer I used darkens the thread(Which is fine in most cases andoriginal). I have found the best true color retention, (if that is your goal) with the alcohol based Gudebrod. I apply two 50% thinned coats of theGudebrod, followed by five coats of flex coat. I like the flex coats ease of use and it will fill gaps nicely (if you like that look, I do). If your using 3/0 thread then the build is not that drastic even with seven total coats of preserver. Following color preservation I brush a coat of spar varnish onto thewraps to check for a good seal. If the wraps are not completely sealed you will soon see a dark patch developing at a weak spot on the wrap, and willneed to start over on that wrap(if the darkness bothers you). Once all thewraps are sealed and tested with the spar varnish I dip the entire section intoa tube of spar varnish. Dipping over the guides gives you a seamless, hopefully flawless appearance. I'm still experimenting with color preserver combinations. Others may reach their desired goals with an easier method. Hope this helps. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu What you've described is exactly what I've found works except I only use Flex Coat, and I reserve a brush to use only with the Flex Coat so there is no possibility of contamination between liquids. The varnish I've used is Epiglass Goldspar. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 3 18:42:09 1997 Subject: Sherline Lathes I have a question about the Lathes from Sherline. What would be one of those lathes? One bed was 7" between centers. What exactly does that mean. I really have no idea what to look into or what would work. Jon from Lloyd.Cross@clorox.com Mon Mar 3 20:06:28 1997 mail.pilot.net with ESMTP id SAA25532 for (CEMS 5.01/1.37.109.14) id AA274731646; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:14:06- 0800 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000734C; Mon, 3 Mar 9718:10:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Sherline Lathes Jon, First, everything you ever wanted to know about centers: The "Between Centers" dimension refers to the horizontal distance between theheadstock center and the tailstock center on a metal lathe. A center on a metal lathe is analogous to spur centers on a wood lathe. Centers are used to hold shafts. The headstock center goes where you would normally see a 3 or 4jaw chuck. Most lathe manufacturers state the individual size of the center in terms of a standard "Morse Taper" or MT. I think the Sherline uses a MT-1 could be wrong. The back of each center is tapered and is fit into the headstock and tailstock spindles. Much of what is written about building handles involves gluing and turning the handle on the rod blank. One way to get by with a small lathe is to use an arbor. An arbor is simply a shaft that can be mounted between the lathe centers. Glue the handle up on the arbor just as you would on a rod shaft. The only difference is that a release agent is used on the arbor so you can slip the handle off when finished. That's how ready to assemble handlesare made. The release agent depends on the type of glue used. You would probably be able to make a 7" handle on the Sherline providedyou held the headstock end of the arbor with the chuck instead of a center. That way the arbor could extend through the hole through the headstock. Some bare shaft is helpful as a place to hang on to when pushing thehandle off the arbor. Also, I belive Sherline has just come out with a longer bed version of their 4000 series lathe. I think it is 24" between centers, but once again this is from memory... ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Sherline LathesAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet I have a question about the Lathes from Sherline. What would be one of those lathes? One bed was 7" between centers. What exactly does that mean. I really have no idea what to look into or what would work. Jon from dryfly@erols.com Mon Mar 3 21:23:25 1997 Subject: Half Culm Rod I am getting ready to start planing my first rod and I know a rod shouldbe made from a full 12ft culm, tips from top half and butts from bottomhalf. However, I have been given a half culm (6ft, top half)to use as asacrifical culm. Rather than just experimenting only, I thought I wouldtry to build a 6'0" #3 or #4 rod from the half culm. What problems arethere are to making all the sections from the same 6ft culm? Bob from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 3 21:25:44 1997 ; Subject: Re: Sherline Lathes Thanks a lot...I think i have learned a little more and I will save themessage for the future. Is a lathe like that suitable for turningreel seat parts and ferrules?Also, the way I have seen people turn ferrule stations is by putting the rod through the (headstock or 3 jaw chuck?). Is that possible with one of those lathes? not necessarily the Sherline, but a metal working lathe. Jon On 3 Mar 97 at 17:42, Lloyd Cross wrote: Jon, First, everything you ever wanted to know about centers: The "Between Centers" dimension refers to the horizontal distance between theheadstock center and the tailstock center on a metal lathe. A center on a metallathe is analogous to spur centers on a wood lathe. Centers are used to hold shafts. The headstock center goes where you would normally see a 3 or 4jaw chuck. Most lathe manufacturers state the individual size of the centerin terms of a standard "Morse Taper" or MT. I think the Sherline uses a MT-1 could be wrong. The back of each center is tapered and is fit into the headstock and tailstock spindles. Much of what is written about building handles involves gluing andturning the handle on the rod blank. One way to get by with a small lathe is touse an arbor. An arbor is simply a shaft that can be mounted between thelathe centers. Glue the handle up on the arbor just as you would on a rod shaft. The only difference is that a release agent is used on the arbor so youcan slip the handle off when finished. That's how ready to assemble handlesare made. The release agent depends on the type of glue used. You would probably be able to make a 7" handle on the Sherline providedyou held the headstock end of the arbor with the chuck instead of a center. That way the arbor could extend through the hole through the headstock. Some bare shaft is helpful as a place to hang on to when pushing thehandle off the arbor. Also, I belive Sherline has just come out with a longer bed version of their 4000 series lathe. I think it is 24" between centers, but once again this is from memory... ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Sherline LathesAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at InternetDate: 3/3/97 07:25 PM I have a question about the Lathes from Sherline. What would be one of those lathes? One bed was 7" between centers. What exactly does that mean. I really have no idea what to look into or what would work. Jon from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 3 21:57:30 1997 Subject: Re: Half Culm Rod Bob,It depends on the depth of power fibers in the culm. Some top half culmsare better than some bottom halves on different culms-if it's any good youshould be all right. Measure the depth of the usable power fibers and ifthey'r equal to or greater than 1/2 the largest butt measurement betweentheflats you'r all right.Hank Woolman. from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Mar 3 22:41:00 1997 Subject: Re: Sherline Lathes Jon Lintvet wrote: I have a question about the Lathes from Sherline. What would be one of those lathes? One bed was 7" between centers. What exactlydoes that mean. I really have no idea what to look into or whatwould work. JonDear Jon,I means that you can fit a piece no more than 7" long between centers on the lath. If you're turning between a chuck and a tailstock center, this distance could be somewhat less.John from GLohkamp@aol.com Mon Mar 3 23:23:08 1997 Subject: Re: Half Culm Rod Bob remember you need to space your nodes l would build a three peice rod .Garrison used 8ft culms but he needed to splice strips to bring them tolength .. go for it have some fun it's just a fishing rod . Gary from impalass@litenet.net Mon Mar 3 23:23:23 1997 litenet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA31559 for; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:23:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Varnish CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I use a spar varnish made by Carver Tripp. It is titled marine super sparvarnish and comes in a high gloss finish, which I prefer. I have also usedMan-O-War high gloss and matte finish spar varnish. I didn't care for thematte finish and had some trouble with shiny streaks. I use a dip tube toapply the final coat of varnish over the guides, wraps and blank. No itdoesn't create drips at the guides, and no it doesn't leave an ugly film onthe guides. preservers, as well as flex coat and more recently Parks laquer. Thelaquer I used darkens the thread(Which is fine in most cases andoriginal).I have found the best true color retention, (if that is your goal) withthe alcohol based Gudebrod. I apply two 50% thinned coats of theGudebrod,followed by five coats of flex coat. I like the flex coats ease of use andit will fill gaps nicely (if you like that look, I do). If your using 3/0thread then the build is not that drastic even with seven total coats ofpreserver. Following color preservation I brush a coat of spar varnish onto thewrapsto check for a good seal. If the wraps are not completely sealed you willsoon see a dark patch developing at a weak spot on the wrap, and willneedto start over on that wrap(if the darkness bothers you). Once all thewrapsare sealed and tested with the spar varnish I dip the entire section intoatube of spar varnish. Dipping over the guides gives you a seamless,hopefully flawless appearance. I'm still experimenting with color preserver combinations. Others mayreach their desired goals with an easier method. Hope this helps. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.eduTry wetting the threads with water after using color preserver andbefore final finish. If there are any spots that have not been fullycovered with color preserver they will show up as a dark spot. When thewater dries up the color will return to normal. If dark spots show upyou know you need another coat of color preserver, if not apply yourfinish. This prevents flaws showing up when finished and its too late.Rich Uffert from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Mar 4 02:31:12 1997 Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:31:02 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Varnish On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Rich Uffert wrote: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: I use a spar varnish made by Carver Tripp. It is titled marine supersparvarnish and comes in a high gloss finish, which I prefer. I have alsousedMan-O-War high gloss and matte finish spar varnish. I didn't care forthematte finish and had some trouble with shiny streaks. I use a dip tubetoapply the final coat of varnish over the guides, wraps and blank. No itdoesn't create drips at the guides, and no it doesn't leave an ugly filmonthe guides. preservers, as well as flex coat and more recently Parks laquer. Thelaquer I used darkens the thread(Which is fine in most cases andoriginal).I have found the best true color retention, (if that is your goal) withthe alcohol based Gudebrod. I apply two 50% thinned coats of theGudebrod,followed by five coats of flex coat. I like the flex coats ease of useandit will fill gaps nicely (if you like that look, I do). If your using 3/0thread then the build is not that drastic even with seven total coats ofpreserver. Following color preservation I brush a coat of spar varnish onto thewrapsto check for a good seal. If the wraps are not completely sealed youwillsoon see a dark patch developing at a weak spot on the wrap, and willneedto start over on that wrap(if the darkness bothers you). Once all thewrapsare sealed and tested with the spar varnish I dip the entire section intoatube of spar varnish. Dipping over the guides gives you a seamless,hopefully flawless appearance. I'm still experimenting with color preserver combinations. Others mayreach their desired goals with an easier method. Hope this helps. Macmcdowellc@lanecc.eduTry wetting the threads with water after using color preserver andbefore final finish. If there are any spots that have not been fullycovered with color preserver they will show up as a dark spot. When thewater dries up the color will return to normal. If dark spots show upyou know you need another coat of color preserver, if not apply yourfinish. This prevents flaws showing up when finished and its too late.Rich Uffert That's good advise. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Mar 4 02:40:07 1997 Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:39:53 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Sherline Lathes I own the metric model of the 4000 (4100) with which I turn ferrules from NS rod stock and make screw type reel seats. If I were to buy another lathe, it'd be another Sherline (if I were in the market for another lathe of this size). Reason I say that is that they are very well made and all the parts are interchangeable with older models. Sherline *say* any future models will remain interchangeablewith earlier models. Also they're made in the US. I'm an Aussie and even I think that counts for something.When I turn handles or mount ferrules, I remove the tailstock and work on the handle/ferrule not within the bed section as per usual, but have the handle/ferrule on the left hand side of the headstock. If the tailstock is removed the rod fits and you don't need to fit the handle through the jaws.This adds about 50 seconds to the job and works well.I have a link to Sherline in my home page, as well as my (not ver Tony. On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Jon Lintvet wrote: Thanks a lot...I think i have learned a little more and I will save themessage for the future. Is a lathe like that suitable for turningreel seat parts and ferrules?Also, the way I have seen people turn ferrule stations is by putting the rod through the (headstock or 3 jaw chuck?). Is that possible with one of those lathes? not necessarily the Sherline, but a metal working lathe. Jon On 3 Mar 97 at 17:42, Lloyd Cross wrote: Jon, First, everything you ever wanted to know about centers: The "Between Centers" dimension refers to the horizontal distance between theheadstock center and the tailstock center on a metal lathe. A center on a metallathe is analogous to spur centers on a wood lathe. Centers are used to hold shafts. The headstock center goes where you would normally see a 3 or4 jaw chuck. Most lathe manufacturers state the individual size of the centerin terms of a standard "Morse Taper" or MT. I think the Sherline uses aMT-1 I could be wrong. The back of each center is tapered and is fit into the headstock and tailstock spindles. Much of what is written about building handles involves gluing andturning the handle on the rod blank. One way to get by with a small lathe is touse an arbor. An arbor is simply a shaft that can be mounted between thelathe centers. Glue the handle up on the arbor just as you would on a rodshaft. The only difference is that a release agent is used on the arbor so youcan slip the handle off when finished. That's how ready to assemble handlesare made. The release agent depends on the type of glue used. You would probably be able to make a 7" handle on the Sherline providedyou held the headstock end of the arbor with the chuck instead of a center. That way the arbor could extend through the hole through theheadstock. Some bare shaft is helpful as a place to hang on to when pushing thehandle off the arbor. Also, I belive Sherline has just come out with a longer bed version of their 4000 series lathe. I think it is 24" between centers, but onceagain this is from memory... ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Sherline LathesAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at InternetDate: 3/3/97 07:25 PM I have a question about the Lathes from Sherline. What would be one of those lathes? One bed was 7" between centers. What exactly does that mean. I really have no idea what to look into or what would work. Jon /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jjohnso4@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 4 08:56:11 1997 mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17391 for Subject: Re: Sherline Lathes Hi Folks, The Sherline Web pages also include lots of good info on how to setup anduse the lathe and mill. You won't find any info on using the lathe to turnferrule stations or cork handles but there is lots of good info on standardmetal cutting practices. There's also a picture of a nine cylinder gasengine that was made on a Sherline lathe. Later,Johnny At 04:39 PM 3/4/97 +0800, Tony wrote:I own the metric model of the 4000 (4100) with which I turn ferrules from NS rod stock and make screw type reel seats. If I were to buy another lathe, it'd be another Sherline (if I were in the market for another lathe of this size). Reason I say that is that they are very well made and all the parts are interchangeable with older models. Sherline *say* any future models will remain interchangeablewith earlier models. Also they're made in the US. I'm an Aussie and even I think that counts for something.When I turn handles or mount ferrules, I remove the tailstock and work on the handle/ferrule not within the bed section as per usual, but have the handle/ferrule on the left hand side of the headstock. If the tailstock is removed the rod fits and you don't need to fit the handle through the jaws.This adds about 50 seconds to the job and works well.I have a link to Sherline in my home page, as well as my (not ver Tony. -------------------John JohnsonLilburn, GA from wfmack@evansville.net Tue Mar 4 09:14:15 1997 via sendmail with smtp (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #21 built 1997-Feb-28) Subject: heat guns I am starting to look at heat guns. Surprisingly few catalogs seem to mention them. Found a Bosch in Tool Crib of the North. Do any of you have preferences for brand, temperature, air flow, accessory tips you might care to suggest? Many thanks. By the way, have drilled, tapped, and almost flattened my planing form. The previous one I did suffered from poor drilling technique and didn't remian level as it opened. Once I get this one flat I'll see how much better I did-so far looks pretty good. Skipped the shoulder bolts and drilled out the near side bar (where the shoulder would be) to clear the threads. Used 1 1/2 steel dowels on each side of the pull and pull holes. Would be glad to go into more detail on the trials and tribulations on each for anyone starting one--but since I don't have a finished product tested yet, so listener beware! Bill Mack from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Mar 4 09:47:20 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? At 17:15 03/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Don Andersen wrote: Never use epoxy. regards, Don John, Well, I never use epoxy on wraps - other things yes - wraps - no. And Ireally don't want to tell you what I think it looks like on canes - do useit on graphites - appropriate there - plastic rod deserves a plastic finish- I know - I know - give me a hard time for using varathane on canes -Well, I ain't pure - just opinionated. Good hearing from you - Are you getting any notes from John B.? regards, Don Hi Don,Pray tell. Why did you write "never use epoxy"??John from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Tue Mar 4 10:33:59 1997 2.0/2.12um) id IAA000.44; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:20:43 -0500 Subject: Re: heat guns Hi Bill: Re heat guns I seem to recall a post recently about the Steinel line of heatguns. Because I'm also looking for one I found they have a web page (http://www.thomasregister.com:8000/olc/steinelamerica/) that youshould check out next time you surf the web. The author of the post (Chris Bogart, I think)spoke quite highly of their product and I believe he said he owned one. Steinelalso has a toll-free number you can call to determine the distributor closest toyou. The number id 1-800-910-7673. Hope this helps. Regards, Rich Brown from sats@gte.net Tue Mar 4 10:47:53 1997 ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:47:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Half Culm Rod It depends on the depth of power fibers in the culm...Measure the depth of the usable power fibers and ifthey'r equal to or greater than 1/2 the largest butt measurement betweentheflats you'r all right.Hank Woolman.Hank, Wayne, My understanding is that the power fibers don't just stop, but thinout at a more or less even rate as we move toward the inside of theculm? How do you know where the usable power fibers end. 1/2 the largest butt measurement would mean that each piece of the rodis made of 100% power fibers? 1/2 the butt section would be thethickness of one of the six sections. Is this correct? Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.sats@gte.net from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Mar 4 13:16:19 1997 Subject: Re: Half Culm Rod To confirm the use of the 1/2 culm to this - block sand the cut endsuntil you can clearly see the power fibers - looking closely you will see apoint where the fibers are no longer touching each other the fiber layerwill have a distinct white(pith) ring around the fibers. mark this depth andmeasure it with a caliper using the depth feature. with these dimensionscompare them with the 1/2 dimensions of the rod that you intend to makefromthe culm. if the power fiber depth is equal or greater - fine. If the powerfiber depth is less the rod will be weaker than anticipated but by anunknowndegree. If at all posible make sure that the power fiber is always greaterthan 1/2 ff the butt dimension of the rod. Wayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Tue Mar 4 15:41:21 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? Hi Don.I haven't heard from John B. Posted him a message a week ago.John from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Mar 4 16:09:51 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? At 16:30 04/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Hi Don.I haven't heard from John B. Posted him a message a week ago.John He's being having some teething problems with his machine/applications. got message from him this PM. He's alive!!!! Going out to see my daughter in Vancouver in late March - will see JohnandJoy then. Don from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 4 17:09:14 1997 Subject: Re: Half Culm Rod Terry,Yes, I try to use all power fibers if I can. As far as knowing where theusable fibers end I try to not have very much light colored spaces betweenthe dark bundles-less than a 1/4th.Hope this helps-most of the above is subjective and comes fromexperience-some of it bad :-)Hank. from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Mar 4 18:19:59 1997 TAA04099 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:19:47 - Subject: Reelseats To the list,Having never tried uplocking reelseats, am I missing something? Most ofmy rods are light in weight (hopefully), with a Garrison type butt cap anda sliding ring, or two lightweight sliding rings, using a cork insert. Thesetypes seem to hold reels quite well. Many exotic wood inserts areavailable.Is there any advantage to them other than cosmetics? Many of my rods areexperimental models where cosmetics don't count much. Even wine corkswork from rbrown@infocom.net Tue Mar 4 20:23:40 1997 login1.infocom.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA27124 for; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 20:25:36 -0600 Subject: Help I am having trouble with my subscription to rodbuilders bulletin board.I guess I need to re-subscribe but I can't find the starting point. Please help me to find it. Thanks Rob Brown from jfoster@gte.net Tue Mar 4 21:18:23 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id VAA06344 for; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 21:18:19 -0600 Subject: archives All The listproc archives for feb are now up to date..thanks MikeMike, I read a thing on your listproc and was led to believe there's anoption the admin can set to store abbreviated x400 addresses.. surewould make things cleaner.. check out Chris Bogart and John Zimny's web sites under rodmakers.. Wayne's grayrock III poster icon now links you to The Fly Factory website in grayling.. I understand they will be posting info on GRAYROCK III I also added their link on the links page.. Might be posting the final intermediate version of hexrod for excellater tonight.. need testers, along with Chris..( thanks chris) Jerry from JCZIMNY@dol.net Tue Mar 4 21:20:49 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Wraps? Don Andersen wrote: At 16:30 04/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Hi Don.I haven't heard from John B. Posted him a message a week ago.John He's being having some teething problems with his machine/applications. got message from him this PM. He's alive!!!! Going out to see my daughter in Vancouver in late March - will see JohnandJoy then. DonPlease give them my greetings.John from gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk Wed Mar 5 08:55:39 1997 [130.209.135.199] sender gqla14) by lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk (8.8.5/UK- 2.2a/cent-sparc) with SMTP id OAA22166 for; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:54:54 GMT Subject: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts I have been trying to obtain a 60 degree lathe tool but my tool store doesn't know what this is. I saw in the archives that it is actually a thread cutting tool for a metal lathe but even this description drew a blank, can anyone help with the correct name for this tool.I have obtained shoulder bolts for my forms, but although I asked for bolts with a 1 inch shoulder when I got home and measured them I found the shoulder to be 1 and 3/8ths inches. Will these be ok for forms made from 3/4 inch as described by Bruce Connor, should I make my forms from thicker wood or should I replace them with 1 inch bolts, assuming these are available at the same tool store.Thanks in advance.John KennedyResearch TechnicianDept of SurgeryWestern InfirmaryGlasgow from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Wed Mar 5 09:14:06 1997 Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:13:55 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts John,sounds like you're doing your shopping at the local hardware store.Try an industrial tooling /engineers outlet. You might find 58 deg cutting tools are more or less standard in the UK, but you will be able to get 60 deg if you specify it. Tony I have been trying to obtain a 60 degree lathe tool but my tool store doesn't know what this is. I saw in the archives that it is actually a thread cutting tool for a metal lathe but even this description drew a blank, can anyone help with the correct name for this tool.I have obtained shoulder bolts for my forms, but although I asked for bolts with a 1 inch shoulder when I got home and measured them I found the shoulder to be 1 and 3/8ths inches. Will these be ok for forms made from 3/4 inch as described by Bruce Connor, should I make my forms from thicker wood or should I replace them with 1 inch bolts, assuming these are available at the same tool store.Thanks in advance.John KennedyResearch TechnicianDept of SurgeryWestern InfirmaryGlasgow /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Wed Mar 5 09:23:31 1997 IAA29643; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:23:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Reelseats To the list,Having never tried uplocking reelseats, am I missing something? Mostofmy rods are light in weight (hopefully), with a Garrison type butt cap anda sliding ring, or two lightweight sliding rings, using a cork insert. Thesetypes seem to hold reels quite well. Many exotic wood inserts areavailable.Is there any advantage to them other than cosmetics? Many of my rodsareexperimental models where cosmetics don't count much. Even wine corkswork Bill, One of the main benifits of an uplocking reel seat is that it gets theweight of the reel closer to your hand. Try making a cast with your handup the rod about 1-2 feet and you will feel the momentem of the reel whenyou try to check your cast. The closer you can get the reel to your handthe less the weight of the reel will effect your cast. For a betterexplanation see Gary Borgers new book Presentation. As far as wood inserts I believe they are mainly cosmetic. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 5 09:59:11 1997 Subject: Re: Reelseats Bill,Im(not so)ho the uplocking reel seat has the rod butt sticking out so thatwhen I cast the line sometimes wraps around it when shooting line- Ipreferdownlocking. If your rods are lightweight and your cap and ring do the jobstay with it . If you can find a supply of special woods it should be asimple matter to make your own cap and ring reel seats(buying thehardware,of course).Good luck.Hank. from johnnatk@juno.com Wed Mar 5 12:33:52 1997 Subject: Nodeless Splicing I have question for those of you building nodeless. What type of slpicedo you use. Are you using a compound splice as described in Garrison onpgs. 42-46 or is everyone using a "standard" splice? Does it make muchdifference? Thanks from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Wed Mar 5 12:51:39 1997 2.0/2.12um) id KAA000.44; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:39:04 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts John: Tony is correct. If your trying to find the 60 degree threading tool at ahardware store you're probably in for a long search. In the U.S., these tools arecommonly known as lathe tool bits and the cutting surface is most often made ofcarbide to prolong sharpness and long life when machining abrasive and toughmaterials, i.e., cast iron. They are produced by brazing a carbide chip to the surface of ashort piece of square steel bar stock. The carbide chip is also available indifferent shapes for different applications. An industrial supplier specializing in machine tools and supplies is yourbest bet. Failing that, a machine shop may be willing to sell you one from theirstock. But check the included angle of the tool bit. A thread gage is the tool to use purpose. If it is 58 degrees, ask the machinist to dress the tool to a 60degree included angle for you. You could also buy a high speed steel tool bit and have it sharpened to a 60degree included angle. These bits are normally not pre-formed, leaving it up tothe user to grind his (or her) own cutting profile. Any machine shop could do this Regards, Rich Brown from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Wed Mar 5 13:00:47 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts John, I have mail order sources for the 60 degree lathe tool and theshoulder bolts. I'll look them up tonight and post the info tomorrow. Bob Matarazzo from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Mar 5 14:55:39 1997 with ESMTP id OAA14295 for ; Wed, 5 Mar1997 14:55:06 -0600 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA23762 for (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.8.3) with SMTP id XQUECRBF; Wed, 5 Mar 199714:54:44 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: Alden Co. phone number All: What's the phone# for Alden Co. I can't find which folder I put it in*1 Thanks, Don from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Mar 5 15:09:08 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id QAA10311 for ; 17:10:13 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: Leonard taper Mark, I have a 38 (H?) 7' 4wt that I could mic for you, as far as the varnishgoes, I would guess at 3 thou which you would divide the mic measures X 2and subtract 1.5 for final dimension. Beware, I am not an expert,Comments?Also this rod is pretty slow as so many of them are. JB At 19:44 02/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Two questions (actually one question and one request): When micing a rod, how much should one deduct for varnish? I suspectitshould vary with kind of finish etc, but is there some typicalcalculation? It's a 6' with a 11/64 ferrule.[The larger story here is that I miced one, but don't have muchconfidencein the numbers: and the measurements around the ferrule and grip are, ofcourse, estimates.] I would be quite grateful if someone could send memorereliable dimensions. --Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Mar 5 15:19:40 1997 Subject: NS Blackening (revisited) We had a thread a few weeks ago on this topic, describing the Payne typesolution for blackening NS. The stuff works great, and if you need to matchaPayne or Garrison greenish black, you have no choice. But the stuff isnasty,corrosive and potentially dangerous. Here is another method using KodakRapidFixer( cat. # 146 4106). It should cost about 10 dollars for the one gallonsize at a well stocked photography store.You will get one large bottle of fixer, marked solution A, and a smallbottleof hardener, marked solution B. Place small ammounts of both solutions inseparate containers.The NS pieces must be oxide and grease free. I usually spin them with adrill, and polish them with 0000 steel wool. Don't touch them with yourfingers afterward. Mask off any areas you don't want to blacken and dip insolution A. With the high copper alloys of NS this may be enough. If youdon't get a color change, dip in solution B. Rinse thoroughly with water anddry and lightly polish with a soft cloth. If you did not get completecoverage repeat the process, but never dip from solution B to A withoutrinsing or you will "kill" solution A. Solution B will develop a milkyprecipitate, but will continue to work.The result is a blackish blue color, sometimes with bronze overtones, thatisvery attractive. This is not a durable coating, and should be protected withvarnish or lacquer ASAP.- --Tom Smithwick from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Mar 5 16:07:34 1997 Subject: NS blackening In my earlier post, I should have mentioned that while the solutionsinvolvedare relatively benign, they are still acids, and all the usual precautionsshould be taken. from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Mar 5 17:19:08 1997 ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:21:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Rebuilding II Terry IF the tip was smaller than the butt at the ferrule -I would have left well enough alone - You would of havea famous Millward step-down taper design. Having bothequal at the ferrule is not always good. Depends on theaction you wanted. You may have been surprised athow good some of these mismatches turn out - just askReed Curry - he put one together that can roll cast 100+ feet - impressive. Chris from cbogart@ibm.net Wed Mar 5 17:33:56 1997 ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:35:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Nodeless Splicing John Use a regular splice block - a compound splice block is used forrepairing rods - see the info on the rodmakers homepage. Chris from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Mar 5 19:20:48 1997 #19314) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, Subject: Alden's Number The John Alden Co. number is (800)-249-8665. Ordered the stanley plane on a Thursday received it the next Tuesday. from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Mar 5 19:26:05 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id UAA04098 for ; 16:50:47 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: Leonard taper Mark, I have a 38 (h?) 7' 4wt that I could mic for you, as far as the varnishgoes, I would guess at 3 thou which you would divide X 2 and subtract 1.5 rod ispretty slow as so many of them are. JB At 19:44 02/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Two questions (actually one question and one request): When micing a rod, how much should one deduct for varnish? I suspectitshould vary with kind of finish etc, but is there some typicalcalculation? It's a 6' with a 11/64 ferrule.[The larger story here is that I miced one, but don't have muchconfidencein the numbers: and the measurements around the ferrule and grip are, ofcourse, estimates.] I would be quite grateful if someone could send memorereliable dimensions. --Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from sats@gte.net Wed Mar 5 20:15:43 1997 ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:15:32 -0600 Subject: Re: Rebuilding II IF the tip was smaller than the butt at the ferrule -I would have left well enough alone - You would of havea famous Millward step-down taper design. Having bothequal at the ferrule is not always good. Depends on theaction you wanted. You may have been surprised athow good some of these mismatches turn out - just askReed Curry - he put one together that can roll cast 100+ feet - impressive. Chris, That's how I started out. (actually took about .005 off the buttsection but really didn't change anything.) It cast great... after you got the line out to 50ft. The first fiftyfeet were terrible. Like casting a straw stuck in a broomstick. Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Fl.sats@gte.net from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Wed Mar 5 21:20:42 1997 Thu, 6 Mar 1997 11:20:26 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Nodeless Splicing On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, John R Natkevicius wrote: I have question for those of you building nodeless. What type of slpicedo you use. Are you using a compound splice as described in Garrison onpgs. 42-46 or is everyone using a "standard" splice? Does it make muchdifference? Thanks Just use the simple standard scarf. I use a 1:20 scarf and UF glue.Also, try getting the two pieces closely matched in diamension otherwise you'll wind up with one half of the scarf longer than the other and it wont be such a good joint. Clamp using spring clamps. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 5 21:38:44 1997 23:36:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Rebuilding II Terry IF the tip was smaller than the butt at the ferrule -I would have left well enough alone - You would of havea famous Millward step-down taper design. Having bothequal at the ferrule is not always good. Depends on theaction you wanted. You may have been surprised athow good some of these mismatches turn out - just askReed Curry - he put one together that can roll cast 100+ feet - impressive. ChrisI have a British rod that has been built up at the ferrule with 6 splintsof bamboo just around the section that fits into the male.I would not plane off the dense outside fibers of a rod section to make ausable rod and I certainly would not try a 100 ft+ roll cast with it.The so called power fibers of bamboo are very shallow, take a look at thephotomicrogram of a rod section on my web page and you will get an idea.Thesection is .2 across flats!I personally do not use any of these expensive scraper planes, I justscrapethe powdery coating off and stop before any grain becomes visible.I build rods differently to the book and to most people on this site, sowhat I do might not work for you.Terry from DANNUGENT@aol.com Wed Mar 5 22:34:42 1997 Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts the tool you are looking for is called a center gage.Ask for a starett center gage. DAN from KDLoup@aol.com Wed Mar 5 22:54:53 1997 Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts John, Enco Manufacturing 1(800)873-3626 list a 60 degree "V" threadinginsert in their catalog on page 269 for $4.95-9.50. I suspect thatSherline's web page, under accessories, would also sell this tool - seeRodmaker's page for URL. Kurt from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Thu Mar 6 08:14:27 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts John,A 60-degree lathe tool is available from: Blue Ridge Machinery & ToolsP.O. Box 536Hurricane, WV 25526-0536Tel: (800) 872-6500 The part number is E-8 370 and costs $3.84 Shoulder bolts and set screws are available from: ENCO Manufacturing5000 W. BloomingdaleChicago, IL 60639Tel: (800) 860- 3400 The shoulder bolts have 1" x 3/8" body - 5/16-18 ThreadCost: $11.75 for box of 25 (Order # 434-0021)I used these with good results. The set screws are 3/4" long - 1/4-20 ThreadCost: $5.75 for box of 100 (Order # 431-0103) They also have other things like dial indicators and center gauges. Bothcompanies put out a catalog. Good luck!Bob Matarazzo from gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk Thu Mar 6 09:08:06 1997 [130.209.135.199] sender gqla14) by lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk (8.8.5/UK- 2.2a/cent-sparc) with SMTP id PAA08584 for; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:04:47 GMT Subject: Update: 60 degree lathe tool/Shoulder bolts Thanks for the advice on the lathe tool. I was shopping at an industrial outlet. I went back today and eventually got the correct shoulder bolts and set screws. It turned out the screws I got yesterday were a different thread from the bolts. I then went back to the tool department with the latest info on the lathe tool, they still didn't know what I wanted until the manager was sent for. He eventually produced a tool with a 60 degree point. This tool was aprox 5 inches long and 5/8ths square, the point was off set and measured 3/8ths at its widest.The apex of the point was the full thickness of the tool(5/8ths) I had imagined it to be much thinner, it was also higher at one end than the other.Is this the correct tool, is the 3/8ths point large enough? It costs 7pounds UK for this the smallest tool of its type they stocked, which is considerably more than the cost in the USA but it is probably easier to buy here than import. Thanks again.John KennedyResearch TechnicianDept of SurgeryWestern InfirmaryGlasgow from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Mar 6 11:10:02 1997 Subject: Polishing Wraps Does anyone have any methods for sanding down epoxy wraps and polishing them up again? To remove any slight blemishes. Jon from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Mar 6 12:29:18 1997 Subject: Another heat gun In looking for another heat gun - in a pannick I stopped at the localTrue Value Hardware and found one on sale. I one I bought was theEasypowerunit with their accessories pak the True Value #'s are: 355669 Easy Power 2 speed heat gun 21.88 (caught on sale)865238 4 pk asst. Heat Gun Wayne from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Mar 6 13:09:28 1997 with ESMTP id NAA25453 for ; Thu, 6 Mar1997 13:08:55 -0600 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA26112 for (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.8.3) with SMTP id YQTIACCQ; Thu, 6 Mar 199713:08:52 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: re: Another heat gun Wayne: Have you tried it out yet? Is it worth it, or is Steinel still the best bet? Thanks, Don DeLoach ------------------Original text In looking for another heat gun - in a pannick I stopped at the localTrue Value Hardware and found one on sale. I one I bought was theEasypowerunit with their accessories pak the True Value #'s are: 355669 Easy Power 2 speed heat gun 21.88 (caught on sale)865238 4 pk asst. Heat Gun Wayne from FFer4trout@aol.com Thu Mar 6 15:10:41 1997 Subject: Re: Polishing Wraps In a message dated 97-03-06 13:03:07 EST, you write: Subj: Polishing WrapsDate: 97-03-06 13:03:07 ESTFrom: jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu (Jon Lintvet)Sender: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Does anyone have any methods for sanding down epoxy wraps and polishing them up again? To remove any slight blemishes. Jon Jon, Sand them smooth and then add a light 50-50 thinned overcoat of epoxy(flexcoat). I was taught to use MEK to thin the flexcoat. Don B. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 6 15:15:20 1997 16:14:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Polishing Wraps Does anyone have any methods for sanding down epoxy wraps and polishing them up again? To remove any slight blemishes. Jon Epoxy on the wraps of a bamboo rod? hmmm. from 100423.176@CompuServe.COM Thu Mar 6 15:25:01 1997 Subject: Re:Polishing Wraps Does anyone have any methods for sanding down epoxy wraps and polishing them up again? To remove any slight blemishes. Jon from Fallcreek9@aol.com Thu Mar 6 21:31:05 1997 Subject: Re: hexrod In a message dated 97-03-01 15:51:10 EST, you write: f this is all nonsense Richard let me know your phone no. and I'll giveyou a call Jerry Jerry - its ok; thanks for all your help.Richard from plipton@sunvalley.net Fri Mar 7 09:46:25 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA99 Subject: Re: rod builders meeting Gary: Looking forward to the April12th get together. I wish we could make it atwo day affair. Do other folks share my feeling? GLohkamp@aol.com wrote: Hello Alll'am going to post the notice for the Portland Oregon rod buildersmeetingagain l see new builders to the list all the time so just in casel've missedsomeone ,it will be April 12th 1997 in TroutDale Oregon which isabout 18miles east of Portland . This is a one day meeting round tabledisscussion .So far we have 25 builders coming from all around the NorthWest .Ray Gouldwill be there with any luck his new book will be printed in time forthemeeting . Ed Hartzell , Jack Byrd , Tom Fulk as well as PhilipLipton , AlBellinger to name afew . Harold Demarest will be attending he istruely agreat man we are lucky he can make it . There is still room for 20morepeople lf you would like some detailed information about the meetingpleasefeel free to contact me . Hope you can make it .Gary Lohkamp503-666-4834glohkamp@aol.com -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Fri Mar 7 12:49:05 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: No need to read this - just a test Just testing from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Fri Mar 7 16:01:48 1997 PAA10364 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:01:30 -0700 Subject: Final Planing Form Fix Hello to all: I have purchased a set of reject forms from Frank in Colorado. The forms were exactly as Frank described them. They only cost $25.00 basically for shipping and handling. Anyhow, I spent most of last weekend draw filing the top and bottom surfaces true. Both my hands are bruised and blistered, but I now have true steel forms. The problem now is that the taper is off. I took so many valleys and ridges off the two form surfaces that I need to reconstruct the 0.001"/1" slope taper. I have attached a drawing of the jig that I plan to make in order to correct the problem. (Wayne: I think that my design is similar to the design that you described in your book, but I had trouble visualizing what you were describing. A great resource and book by the way. Well worth the money I spent for it.) I was wondering if some of you would check out the attached drawing and send me comments? The drawing is in a jpeg file format and most Internet browsers will view the drawing. I really want to know if my machinist to correct the taper. I have access to a drill press so the form alignment situation will be no problem. Regards- -Paul(Kalispell, Montana) Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Paul That looks like one way to skin the cat. Wayne also hadanother idea expressed here on the list is to use a triangle file thatwas epoxied to something and work the 60 degree grouve thatway. I like the second idea better since the depth on both sideswill be the same. Give this consideration. from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Fri Mar 7 17:24:39 1997 skeria.skelleftea.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) 1.21);8 Mar 97 00:32:01 MET DST 00:31:56 MET DST 8 Mar 97 00:31:50 MET DST Subject: tapers Hello rodbuilders!I've added some salmon tapers to my rodbuilding / flyfishing site.Check them out and let me know if anyone tries to build the rods.See URL below. Regards...---------------------------------------------------------------- Mikael MarklundDragongatan 22931 64 Skellefftea0910- 777795mikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Fri Mar 7 17:48:23 1997 QAA11943 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:48:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Chris wrote: Paul That looks like one way to skin the cat. Wayne also hadanother idea expressed here on the list is to use a triangle file thatwas epoxied to something and work the 60 degree grouve thatway. I like the second idea better since the depth on both sideswill be the same. Give this consideration. To all: I have thought about the triangular file. Sounds like a good idea. Do you know where I can get such a file? I assume the three edges mustbe very sharp, and the angles must be a very precise 60 degrees. I haven't seen such files around Kalispell, or in Enco, and Woodworkers Supply catalogs. -Paul************************************************ Dr. Paul Martino * * Flathead Valley Community College * Chemistry Department * 777 Grandview Dr. Kalispell, MT 59901 * * Phone: 406-756-3895 FAX: 406-756-3815 * * Email Address: pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us * *********************************************** from bootstrap@earthlink.net Fri Mar 7 17:49:33 1997 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Hello to all: I have purchased a set of reject forms from Frank in Colorado.The forms were exactly as Frank described them. They only cost$25.00 basically for shipping and handling. Anyhow, I spent most oflast weekend draw filing the top and bottom surfaces true. Both myhandsare bruised and blistered, but I now have true steel forms. Theproblem now is that the taper is off. I took so many valleys andridges off the two form surfaces that I need to reconstruct the 0.001"/1"slope taper. I have attached a drawing of the jig that I plan tomake in order to correct the problem. (Wayne: I think that mydesign is similar to the design that you described in your book, butI had trouble visualizing what you weredescribing. A great resource and book by the way. Well worth themoney I spent for it.) I was wondering if some of you would check out the attached drawingand send me comments? The drawing is in a jpeg file format and mostInternet browsers will view the drawing. I really want to know if my machinist to correct the taper. I have access to a drill press so the form alignment situation will be noproblem. Regards- -Paul(Kalispell, Montana)Hi, paul, this is Frank. Are the chamfers too far off to be able to filethem with a triangular file? If they're not too bad, attach a handle to afile and push it down the groove starting at the small end. Let me knowhow bad they are. I don't want yoiu to have to pay a machinist to do thatunless he's a friend and doing it for free. Otherwise, it'll bbe more thanthe forms are worth. Frank from bootstrap@earthlink.net Fri Mar 7 18:08:35 1997 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Chris: All I have is an old ENCO catalog, but in that catalog, I'drecommend the three following: get one of each, the bastard for the roughcut, then the second cut for clean up, and finally the smooth cut for thefinal smooth surface. the part numbers are as follows:382-6464-bastard cut, 382-6460- smooth cut, 382-6462, smooth cut. Orif youwish, like the lady said when the hardware clerk asked her if she wanted abastard cut, or a second cut file, " I think I'll take that little son-of-abitch over there!Frank in Colorado from lblan@oeonline.com Fri Mar 7 19:39:44 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0w3B6z-0005QpC; Fri, 7 Mar 97 20:39 EST Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Paul; just a couple of comments. You mention a sharp file. It isn'tnecessary to use a file that tapers to a sharp edge, a common 60 degreefile will work just fine. Open the forms up, using shims at each station tokeep the gap even, or adjust them with the screws, and check with afeelergauge. Chris' advise is good, use Wayne's method, epoxy the file to arectangular block. The block gives you a good visual reference to ensurethat the file isn't canted. I use a 6" by 2" by 1/4" piece of aluminum.Work slowly, and check often. If you get close, you can do the last coupleof passes with a 60 degree stone. It leaves a nice finish, and isn't asaggressive as the file. Subject: Re: Final Planing Form FixDate: Friday, March 07, 1997 6:48 PM Chris wrote: Paul That looks like one way to skin the cat. Wayne also hadanother idea expressed here on the list is to use a triangle file thatwas epoxied to something and work the 60 degree grouve thatway. I like the second idea better since the depth on both sideswill be the same. Give this consideration. To all: I have thought about the triangular file. Sounds like a good idea. Do you know where I can get such a file? I assume the three edges mustbe very sharp, and the angles must be a very precise 60 degrees. I haven't seen such files around Kalispell, or in Enco, and Woodworkers Supply catalogs. -Paul************************************************ Dr. Paul Martino * * Flathead Valley Community College * Chemistry Department * 777 Grandview Dr. Kalispell, MT 59901 * * Phone: 406-756-3895 FAX: 406-756-3815 * * Email Address: pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us * *********************************************** from GLohkamp@aol.com Fri Mar 7 20:44:46 1997 Subject: Re: rod builders meeting Philip lt's getting close l'am hearing from more people all the time ,yes therehas been some talk about a two day meeting . This is something that we asagroup should talk about l don't want this to be a one time thing we shouldget together at least once a year .Next year the corbett lake meeting willbeheld in Merritt BC, it is a three day meeting firday nite all day sat, andjust people hanging out together on sunday . l had a great time there andplan on going next year . The corbett lake meeting is every other year lwould like to see a meeting to fill in the gap but that is just me .We willsee what everyone would like to do . Also l would like to discuss formatoptions . The meeting hall that l rented almost 3 months ago will not beavailableto have the meeting more than one day .But it could be possible to arrange thedeschutes should be fishing good then ,or possilbly meet at someones shopthesecond day . l guess we have another topic for disscussion . Well l need togo, got to finish a rod for the meeting . Thanks Gary from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sat Mar 8 10:41:31 1997 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Paul- I was just cleaning out a stack of mail to be thrown away, andfound an ENCO catalog for 1997. The files are on p. 301. The numbers arethe same, namely:382-6464-bastard cut, $2.40;382-6460-second cut, $2.14;382- 6462, smooth cut, $2.54.They're cheap, so when I buy files, I always order two each at the sametime, so order two of each, use one for your present job, and when you'redone, you'll be able to throw the worn one away and still have a new one inyour tool box. Frank from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Mar 8 11:02:56 1997 MAA02457 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 12:05:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Paul I just checked the master Enco Catalog - they have Triangle MillBastard files. I like this idea since you take both sides down at the sametime to the same depth while maintaining the angle. Also, I checked the big MSC book and they have triangler files, sharpening stones and polishing stones to finish the job with.I also have a triangler finishing stick to dress my froms just beforeplaning to remove any crap that may have accumilated. (800-645- 7270)Lots of luck on your project. from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sat Mar 8 11:05:07 1997 Subject: Re:Planing Form price increase/offer Announcement-Announcement-Announcement-Hey, guys, don't flame, I asked permission from the list guy to post this,and he said "okay."If you read THE PLANING FORM newsletter, you've probably noticed that theprice has gone up on the finish-planing form from Colorado Bootstrap.It'll be $325 plus shipping and handling ($25 in the US), for a total of$350.BUT, if you send a copy of this message along with your order, I'llstill honor the old price of $300.00, includes free shipping in thecontiguous US for anyone who is a member of this newsgroup. So you guyswho are lurking out there, here's a chance to save a little change. Printthis, and then when you decide to order, include a copy of this lettterwith your order. The offer is good until Dec. 31, 1997. Frank in Colorado .o..888. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.8"888. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..8' `888. bootstrap@earthlink.net.88ooo8888. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.8' `888. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626o88o o8888o"It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,it's tha things we know that ain't so! -Artemus Ward from mcreek@sirus.com Sat Mar 8 13:14:44 1997 Subject: [Fwd: which hock] Subject: which hock Hiya, I want to order a Hock blade for my stanley 9 1/2 block plane, but I'mconfused by the two thicknesses. My planes are old style with theknurled, vertical adjustment nut, adjustable throat, etc. Do I want thethicker or thinner blade?Thanks for the help, Brian > from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Sat Mar 8 15:20:07 1997 OAA16850 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:20:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Thanks for all the comments! Chris, Frank, Larry...and whoever else... I will look into getting a triangular file and stone. I will try ENCO, and possibly a local hatrdware store. -Paul(Kalispell, Montana) from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Mar 8 19:16:15 1997 SAA13924; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:16:11 -0700 Subject: Urac kicker Has anyone out there been using the amonium chloride as a kiker for uracas suggested by John Zimney in a past issue of the planning form? Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sat Mar 8 19:41:27 1997 #19314) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, Subject: Re: Planing Form price increase/offer FrankThank -you for the great offer. I deeply appriciate the offer. You along with Wayne and other members of this list make it a hellua lot easier toenter rod building. Thanks to all.gerald(jerry) johnson from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 8 21:44:16 1997 Subject: Re: heat treatment In a message dated 97-02-24 21:01:42 EST, you write: Richard, your posting about Nyatex epoxy was interesting. This is athermoset resin. I had no idea. Did you know that Urac is also athermosetresin? It is used ine the manufacture of plywood and laminated productsusing high frequency to cure the the multiple glue lines very fast. If youwere to use urac and then cured it at the same time/temp that you useforthe epoxy you will get the same results.Urac is an easier adhesive to use, it is water soluble and the blank can bewashed with a wet cloth before cooking. Terry Delayed response:Terry - Thought that urac was quick-set at a milder temp, that highertempswould break it down. Right/wrong? Presently using urac with nh4cl askickerand find it quite good. What cooking time/temp do you propose w/urac?Nyatex can be set at 350 f for for as little as 15 min (per Nyatex) withgood results in case of a hurry, as in at least one rod making classprocedure. I've tried it and it seems as ok as otherwise had been used. Onechap used it thus from a batch at least 5-6 yrs old with no noticableproblems, so guess it has its strong points. We are blessed in that wehaveso many great choices - glad we do not depend solely on hide glue, for ex. Ichanged to urac because of it's reputation of being able to straighten withmilder heat than w/nyatex. Use nh4cl to control working time. I like toexperiment, and as my urac is about outdated, will next try Bill's dinosaurglue, tho it is a bit pricey. Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 8 21:44:21 1997 Subject: Re: tapers In a message dated 97-02-24 21:32:18 EST, you write: From: cbogart@ibm.net (Chris Bogart) BillDo you mean things like swelled butts and stuff like that?If so, I believe that it was to stop the effective length of the taper -more of a control mechanism - some people like the action to goright into the handle and other want to control it by creating a definatestop. The question then procedes to how we can best control theweight - which is not all bad - I have to go back to a paragraph outof Bill Phillips book which is preceeded by: Chris - Cast an 8-ft #4 a few years ago, with the swell beginningsomewherearound 12" ahead of the grip. The builder said it was simply the taper of ashorter rod extended to 8' by the long swell. Wonder if that fits in withthe great scheme of things in the swell's development? Of course, therewerethe very early rods with the swell progressing on up to become the grip.Regards,RTyree from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Mar 8 21:49:15 1997 Subject: Re:Re:Planing Form price increase/offer At 09:04 08/03/97 -0800, you wrote:Announcement-Announcement- Announcement-Hey, guys, don't flame, I asked permission from the list guy to post this,and he said "okay."If you read THE PLANING FORM newsletter, you've probably noticed thattheprice has gone up on the finish-planing form from Colorado Bootstrap.It'll be $325 plus shipping and handling ($25 in the US), for a total of$350.BUT, if you send a copy of this message along with your order, I'llstill honor the old price of $300.00, includes free shipping in thecontiguous US for anyone who is a member of this newsgroup. So youguyswho are lurking out there, here's a chance to save a little change. Printthis, and then when you decide to order, include a copy of this lettterwith your order. The offer is good until Dec. 31, 1997. Frank in Colorado .o..888. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.8"888. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..8' `888. bootstrap@earthlink.net.88ooo8888. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.8' `888. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626o88o o8888o"It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,it's tha things we know that ain't so! -Artemus Ward To all, Frank quotes for his product is way more than fair. My first set of formswere done by a major machine shop after touring the local shops with theprints and getting the same comment " they'll be ready next week" and thatwas in 1983 - still waiting for next week. The major shop produced me asetthat were so far off I returned them and had them rebuilt. The cost for thejob was $ 600.00 and I still had to build the bolts. from what I'vegathered, Frank's forms are "good equipment" and well worth the price.Whileyou can build rods with wooden form [ I did ], I recommend that you don'teven try if you expect to build more than a couple of rods. The time spentbuilding on a single rod using wood forms can yield about 3 on metal forms+the strips are a lot more accurate. just my $0.02 Don from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 8 22:22:47 1997 Subject: Re: Urac kicker In a message dated 97-03-08 20:17:30 EST, you write: Has anyone out there been using the amonium chloride as a kiker for uracas suggested by John Zimney in a past issue of the planning form? Jim - yes. It works just fine for me. Let me know if you want details.Regards,Richard from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Mar 8 22:34:12 1997 VAA26594; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:34:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Urac kicker Jim - yes. It works just fine for me. Let me know if you want details.Regards,Richard Yes any info would be appreciated. esp. int in amount of kicker mixedwith the urac. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Sun Mar 9 00:57:07 1997 Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:56:43 +0800 (WST) Subject: Looking for Ron Barch Sorry to bother the list with this. If your out there Ron, could you reply to this. I've a message for you and it's been bouncing. I must have a wrong address. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Mar 9 06:17:17 1997 07:15:11 -0500 Subject: Re: heat treatment In a message dated 97-02-24 21:01:42 EST, you write: Richard, your posting about Nyatex epoxy was interesting. This is athermoset resin. I had no idea. Did you know that Urac is also athermosetresin? It is used ine the manufacture of plywood and laminated productsusing high frequency to cure the the multiple glue lines very fast. If youwere to use urac and then cured it at the same time/temp that you useforthe epoxy you will get the same results.Urac is an easier adhesive to use, it is water soluble and the blank canbewashed with a wet cloth before cooking. Terry Delayed response:Terry - Thought that urac was quick-set at a milder temp, that highertempswould break it down. Right/wrong? Presently using urac with nh4cl askickerand find it quite good. What cooking time/temp do you propose w/urac?Nyatex can be set at 350 f for for as little as 15 min (per Nyatex) withgood results in case of a hurry, as in at least one rod making classprocedure. I've tried it and it seems as ok as otherwise had been used. Onechap used it thus from a batch at least 5-6 yrs old with no noticableproblems, so guess it has its strong points. We are blessed in that wehaveso many great choices - glad we do not depend solely on hide glue, for ex. Ichanged to urac because of it's reputation of being able to straightenwithmilder heat than w/nyatex. Use nh4cl to control working time. I like toexperiment, and as my urac is about outdated, will next try Bill'sdinosaurglue, tho it is a bit pricey. Regards,Richard Urac can be cured at 225F. At this temp a 1/16in glue line sets up in1.5mins and a 1/8in glue line @ 3.0 min.Remember that you can wash the glued up section with a wet cloth toremoveall the excess glue before cooking! You cannot do that with epoxy. I wish you guys would explain to me the advantages of using the smellystuff? To me "the book" is rodmaking the hard way, and epoxy is taking it a stepfurther. Building nodeless rods with epoxy and one hand in your pocket could bereally interesting.Terry Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Mar 9 08:06:51 1997 09:04:48 -0500 Subject: urac If a glued up section is difficult to straighten, it is as it should be.Urac is difficult to straighten when used as a thermoset adhesive. Thereismoisture in urac and cooking removes that moisture that would otherwiseremain in the cane. Terry from george.barnes@acornbbs.com Sun Mar 9 09:28:40 1997 KAA32104 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:32:58 -0500 John Zimny: I've a question that should not clutter up the list, if you'll shoot me up your e-mail address.George Barnes(george.barnes@acornbbs.com) from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sun Mar 9 09:57:57 1997 IAA29921; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:57:52 -0700 Subject: Re: urac If a glued up section is difficult to straighten, it is as it should be.Urac is difficult to straighten when used as a thermoset adhesive. Thereismoisture in urac and cooking removes that moisture that wouldotherwiseremain in the cane. Terry Terry, in the previous post you said urac could be cured at 225 degrees. Is thisthe temp that you are using? Also are you using NH4CL as a kicker. Mylast rod I set at 175 degrees for one hour then kept it at 100 degreesovernight. seemed to work well but I would like to know the temps youhave been using. As a new builder I greatly appreciate any information onheat treating and setting urac that you would like to pass on. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Mar 9 10:46:32 1997 11:44:22 -0500 Subject: Re: urac If a glued up section is difficult to straighten, it is as it should be.Urac is difficult to straighten when used as a thermoset adhesive. Thereismoisture in urac and cooking removes that moisture that wouldotherwiseremain in the cane. Terry Terry, in the previous post you said urac could be cured at 225 degrees. Is thisthe temp that you are using? Also are you using NH4CL as a kicker. Mylast rod I set at 175 degrees for one hour then kept it at 100 degreesovernight. seemed to work well but I would like to know the temps youhave been using. As a new builder I greatly appreciate any information onheat treating and setting urac that you would like to pass on. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado Jim, 225 is the max safe temperature for curing urac, the time specified issupplied by Cyanamid for production manufacturers. You must decide whattemperature/time suites you, as long as you do not exceed 220F in theinitial say, 10 mins I am not going to give out exactly what I do. I do not have time, plus thereare books out there to be purchased and it is basically up to you to decidewhether the information is correct. I have only read Carmichaels book, it is an excellent book to start with butremember it is only a guide for amateur builders and I have not been anamateur builder for a few years now. A big problem is, is that most of the subscribers on the list have not helda good bamboo rod, they are too young. I willingly tell guys what I think they should not use, epoxy and tung oiletc only because I have tried them and they give problems. Terry from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Mar 9 13:33:30 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA01490 for Subject: Extra Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia I picked up a spare Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia today. It lookedlonely.If anyone wants it, it is a first edition (1951) with dustjacket,overall in good condition, for $30 U.S. plus shipping.This book contains an excellent section on cane rodmaking.Best regards,Reed Curryrcurry@jlc.net from plipton@sunvalley.net Sun Mar 9 13:59:30 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA77 Subject: Re: Planing Form price increase/offer Don's comments about Frank's forms are similar to my experience. Ibought my first form from a fellow builder here in Idaho. It is a niceform but one shoulder bolt is too short. It was a $100.00 more expensivethan the Colorado Bootstrap form so there was no bargain to the deal. Ialso have another form from Jeff Wagner. It is well made and longer(6-1/2 feet). At twice the price I can't say it is twice as good. Lastyear, I built a rod on one of Frank's form and it worked well. My initial problem was that I heard his forms were not accurate. Thatmight have been true for some early forms but it is not the case now.They say a good craftsman never blames his tools. There is a sense forme that accuracy comes from developing my skills. It doesn't come frommy tools. The skill is working to tolerances tighter than my tools. Don Andersen wrote: To all, thatFrank quotes for his product is way more than fair. My first set offormswere done by a major machine shop after touring the local shops withtheprints and getting the same comment " they'll be ready next week"and thatwas in 1983 - still waiting for next week. The major shop producedme a setthat were so far off I returned them and had them rebuilt. The cost job was $ 600.00 and I still had to build the bolts. from what I'vegathered, Frank's forms are "good equipment" and well worth theprice. Whileyou can build rods with wooden form [ I did ], I recommend that youdon'teven try if you expect to build more than a couple of rods. The timespentbuilding on a single rod using wood forms can yield about 3 on metalforms +the strips are a lot more accurate. just my $0.02 Don ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from plipton@sunvalley.net Sun Mar 9 14:08:58 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA269 Subject: Re: Scrapers Wayne: Do you remember showing me a miniature scraper in your tool box? I waslooking through catalog 30 from CMT Tools and on page 57 they show avery similar scraper and plane. I have a second catalog if you areinterested or you can call them at 800-531- 5559. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Jerry.Snider@UC.Edu Sun Mar 9 16:12:42 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: Bootstrap Planing Forms Frank, received your hex form and the rough form. Thanks for providing uswith a decent form for a good price! The rough form is fantastic, excellentprice, and way overbuilt (that is NOT a complaint!). Thanks for steering mein the right direction with all of your advice.At 04:08 PM 3/7/97 -0800, you wrote:Chris: All I have is an old ENCO catalog, but in that catalog, I'drecommend the three following: get one of each, the bastard for theroughcut, then the second cut for clean up, and finally the smooth cut for thefinal smooth surface. the part numbers are as follows:382-6464- bastard cut, 382-6460-smooth cut, 382-6462, smooth cut. Orif youwish, like the lady said when the hardware clerk asked her if she wantedabastard cut, or a second cut file, " I think I'll take that little son-of-abitch over there!Frank in Colorado Jerry Snidere-mail: CINC@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDUhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from jfoster@gte.net Sun Mar 9 17:47:21 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id RAA18893 for; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:47:18 -0600 Subject: ferrules Reed..anyone Whats the story with titanium ferrules..?? Jerry from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 18:46:49 1997 Subject: Re: Extra Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia I want it if it's still available. Frank in Colorado-Colorado Bootstrap18599 E. Louisiana Ave.Aurora, CO 80017(303)745-1353FAX (303)7551-8626Let me know how to get the money to you. Thanks .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 18:49:51 1997 Subject: Re: Bootstrap Planing Forms Thanks for those kind words, Jerry. I appreciate them. Good luck and stayin touch. Frank in Colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Mar 9 19:27:20 1997 Subject: I should know better - - - I should know better - butQuite often at the end of a tiring day I will sit with a cup of coffeeand reflect on the different thoughts and events. It's one of the times thatlife and I seem to get back in touch with each other. And because of myinvolvement with bamboo rod making those thoughts often revolve aroundthatinterest. I just got back from the fly fishing show at Southfield - had agreat time. As I shared earlier I have been involved with the show for anumber of years and in preparing for the show I came across a brochurefromthe 1985 show which was the first that I attended. I brought it along totheshow so that Sam and I could reviewed it together. from 1985 until today50 %of the individuals and shops are no longer involved with the business.Included in that list, several "PROFESSIONAL" rod makers. They havevanished.I would suspect that either their expectations were set too high or theirquality too low with respect to todays market.I have always said that my rod making is a hobby - therefore I can beand am considered an amateur at it - just as many of the others I knowconsider themselves amateurs at it. But the label 'amateur' doesn'tdescribeeither their knowledge of the craft or their workmanship. Today some ofthebest bamboo fly rods ever made are being produced by this group who somemaylabel as less than the professionals that they are.Last night Lyndi and I were at diner with a group from the show - TomBrookover has a pasta fest each year and invites his friends over for funandfellowship. It's times like last night and at the get togethers that Irealize a part of why I make rods. It's the people. Like Sam says - if itwere money that we were after then we should be selling real estateinstead.The rodmakers list was started by and has been supported by those whoenjoythe craft and the people involved with it. And it has been and shouldalwaysbe a place where those looking for information can come and feel free toaskquestions of the other list members. Well, the coffee is ready - I think I'll take a cup and go down to theshop - I'd hate to lose touch with reality Wayne from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Mar 9 20:19:37 1997 Subject: Re: heat treatment In a message dated 97-03-09 07:21:06 EST, you write: Urac can be cured at 225F. At this temp a 1/16in glue line sets up in1.5mins and a 1/8in glue line @ 3.0 min. Terry - Thanks for the info. Regards,RTyree from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Mar 9 20:20:19 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA10208 for Subject: Re: Extra Wise Fisherman's Encyclopedia Franz O. Armbruster wrote: I want it if it's still available. Frank in Colorado-Colorado Bootstrap18599 E. Louisiana Ave.Aurora, CO 80017(303)745-1353FAX (303)7551-8626Let me know how to get the money to you. Thanks To Frank and all the others (except one),I'm sorry, the book is bespoke. Would that I had enough for all.Best regards,Reed from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Mar 9 21:43:53 1997 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Fix Paul -In better reading the posts - I forgot to answer all your questions. Thetriangle file I talked of can be had for most any hardware store - a checkofthe angle with a center gauge might be in order just to make sure it is atrue 60 degree angle. For the epoxy to hold it on just use the 2 ton stuff -eventually it will come loose of the plastic but it should last for the oneset of forms that you are working on.Wayne from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Mar 9 21:53:52 1997 22:51:33 -0500 Subject: what is an amateur? The word AMATEUR is not used in a derogatory way, it has nothing to dowithquality. If A maker builds a rod and he pays no attention to how long ittakes and is just happy to have sold a couple of rods no matter if he isworking for $10 per hour then, to my thinking he is an amateur.As far as I can gather if you build a rod by "the book" it takes between 50and 60 hrs, add to that the cost of all the hardware and you are onminimumwage. A professional to me is a builder who can produce a rod sell it and walkaway with a realistic profit from his investment and skill. The fame factor is important in rodmaking to many builders and this hasbeenperpetuated by angling authors and historians that have ignored the factthat most custom rodmakers died poor. Heddon,Granger and other production rodmakers made good rods and alsomadegood profits and to me these are the companies to emulate when bamboo isrediscovered. Terry from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Sun Mar 9 23:36:37 1997 Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:36:29 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Personaly, I don't see a problem with being called an amatuer. Used in the correct way all it realy means is non professional, and no matter how many rods I'll ever make, I don't want to have to earn a living at it. All that would do is force me to find another hobby to unwind with.Besides, amatures don't *have* to perform, they can experiment. It's always been amatures who developed ideas into paying enterprises likeearly planes starting with kites, motors, boats etc, etc.Don't cringe at being an amature, rather enjoy it's freedom to be creative. I'll just slink away into my corner again now and make some shavings.... Tony On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: The word AMATEUR is not used in a derogatory way, it has nothing to dowithquality. If A maker builds a rod and he pays no attention to how long ittakes and is just happy to have sold a couple of rods no matter if he isworking for $10 per hour then, to my thinking he is an amateur.As far as I can gather if you build a rod by "the book" it takes between50and 60 hrs, add to that the cost of all the hardware and you are onminimumwage. A professional to me is a builder who can produce a rod sell it and walkaway with a realistic profit from his investment and skill. The fame factor is important in rodmaking to many builders and this hasbeenperpetuated by angling authors and historians that have ignored the factthat most custom rodmakers died poor. Heddon,Granger and other production rodmakers made good rods and alsomadegood profits and to me these are the companies to emulate when bambooisrediscovered. Terry /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 10 13:13:09 1997 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? To Tony, Terry et al,The word "amateur" derives from the Latin meaning "love" and used tomean one does something for the joy of doing it. I'm extremely jealous ofmyamateur status as a huntsman and hound man but I'm better at it than mostprofessionals I know-being an amateur is no put down in my book.Hank. from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Mar 10 14:34:36 1997 Subject: Re: george.barnes@acornbbs.com wrote: John Zimny: I've a question that should not clutter up the list, if you'll shoot meup your e- mail address.George Barnes(george.barnes@acornbbs.com)Hi George,Need to talk to you too. Want one of those plane depth setters that you're making. You can also get me at jczimny@bamboorods.comJohn from jfoster@gte.net Mon Mar 10 14:58:20 1997 smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/) via SMTP id OAA10906 for; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:57:47 -0600 Subject: archive All Just a note to let you know I got a very nice email from Dennis Highamdiscussing the tbbq tapers I had previously posted. I had made severalinterpretive errors which he helped me straighten out. anyway.... thebbq tapers have been straightend out now and I beleive they are correct. Jerry from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Mon Mar 10 16:22:55 1997 SVR4) (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA272212361; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:19:21 -0800 Subject: forms Does anybody know if Lon Bluevelt (spelling?) still makes planning forms and if so does anybody have a phone number or e-mail address for him.I was wondering why not use stainless steel to build planning forms, ifa guy is going to put the bevel on the steel forms himself why not usestainless and completly do away with the problem of rust and skin acidseating the surface of the forms. Two peices of stainless to buld a formcan't be that expensive to make the forms or is there another reason Patrick from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 10 17:07:22 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA21690 +0000 Subject: Re: forms Patrick W. Coffey wrote: Does anybody know if Lon Bluevelt (spelling?) still makes planning formsand if so does anybody have a phone number or e-mail address for him.I was wondering why not use stainless steel to build planning forms, ifa guy is going to put the bevel on the steel forms himself why not usestainless and completly do away with the problem of rust and skin acidseating the surface of the forms. Two peices of stainless to buld a formcan't be that expensive to make the forms or is there another reason Patrick from a metalurgical point of view, I would think the free machiningforms of stainless would do quite well - 303 (free machining form of304) and 416 are the two grades I've specified for other things. The 300series is basically non- magnetic, if I remember my former lifecorrectly. These have a machinability index of 60 to 80 (100 being themachinability of mild steel, i.e. 1018). Typically, the additives thatmake steel stainless make it hard to machine. If you can overcome that,stainless is great. Also, remember that stainless is a relative term. It is quite easy toget "stainless" to corrode under the proper conditions, most commonlyexcess moisture (like in a garage in winter). The 300 series should bemore resistant than the 400 series. Best regards, Ed Estlow (caveat: not much knowledge of planing forms, but a fair amount onsteels) from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Mar 10 18:04:18 1997 TAA04621 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:04:13 Subject: Tapers Hi Chris, 3/9/97Richard's message of 3/8/97 was a reminder to me to respond to yourquestion about swelled butts. They seem like a nice cosmetic but they doadda bit of weight and quite honestly when I try swelled butts my glue jointscome out less than great. Any suggestions?One more thought prompted by your quote from Bill Phillips: I don't everintend to become a slave to lightness to the point where rod performanceiscompromised. My rods seem to perform OK. Computer taper programs basedonstress curves would seem to guarantee this compared to empirical (trialanderror) tapers. And nobody who's a real light weight nut should ever messwith penta's. They should make only quads. Bill from jaquin@netsync.net Mon Mar 10 20:19:33 1997 quartz.netsync.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14650 for; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:19:30 -0500 Subject: Re: I should know better - - - WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: I should know better - butQuite often at the end of a tiring day I will sit with a cup of coffeeand reflect on the different thoughts and events. It's one of the timesthatlife and I seem to get back in touch with each other. And because of myinvolvement with bamboo rod making those thoughts often revolvearound thatinterest. I just got back from the fly fishing show at Southfield - had agreat time. As I shared earlier I have been involved with the show for anumber of years and in preparing for the show I came across a brochurefromthe 1985 show which was the first that I attended. I brought it along totheshow so that Sam and I could reviewed it together. from 1985 untiltoday 50 %of the individuals and shops are no longer involved with the business.Included in that list, several "PROFESSIONAL" rod makers. They havevanished.I would suspect that either their expectations were set too high or theirquality too low with respect to todays market.I have always said that my rod making is a hobby - therefore I can beand am considered an amateur at it - just as many of the others I knowconsider themselves amateurs at it. But the label 'amateur' doesn'tdescribeeither their knowledge of the craft or their workmanship. Today some ofthebest bamboo fly rods ever made are being produced by this group whosome maylabel as less than the professionals that they are.Last night Lyndi and I were at diner with a group from the show -TomBrookover has a pasta fest each year and invites his friends over for funandfellowship. It's times like last night and at the get togethers that Irealize a part of why I make rods. It's the people. Like Sam says - if itwere money that we were after then we should be selling real estateinstead.The rodmakers list was started by and has been supported by those whoenjoythe craft and the people involved with it. And it has been and shouldalwaysbe a place where those looking for information can come and feel free toaskquestions of the other list members.Well, the coffee is ready - I think I'll take a cup and go down to theshop - I'd hate to lose touch with reality Wayne hi wayne that was a great note on the Why you're in the rod makingbusiness. have read your book through once and gathering my thoughts onequipment. one question on final planing form. You filed your own 60degree taper in the form. What grade of steel is the form made of? Just cold rolled steel? some tool steels are hard enough, it would takeforever to file those grooves. do you know of any shops that wouldmachine the grooves at a reasonable cost? thanks for your help!! from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 10 21:10:55 1997 22:08:12 -0500 Subject: going by the book The problem with building rods by the book is the expense of theequipmentis very high and selling a couple of rods to get some of the original outlayback is necessary. This is difficult because the methods taught in the bookdoes not make it a commercially viable proposition. I had (have) a small rodbuilding book written by a a guy down in Maine,George Burns or Barnes? He made rodmaking look simple, too simple infact,how could you build a bamboo rod with a hunting knife? In retrospect this book is excellent, for the equipment requirements areminimal and an angler can build himself a couple of rods with very littleoutlay. The book may have been a victim of its simplicity. Who wouldbelieverodbuilding was that simple after reading Carmichaels technicallyslightlyover the top offering on a subject that is basically a handicraft! I guess there are two schools of thought.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 10 21:36:08 1997 22:33:31 -0500 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Personaly, I don't see a problem with being called an amatuer. Used in the correct way all it realy means is non professional, and no matter how many rods I'll ever make, I don't want to have to earn a living at it. All that would do is force me to find another hobby to unwind with.Besides, amatures don't *have* to perform, they can experiment. It's always been amatures who developed ideas into paying enterprises likeearly planes starting with kites, motors, boats etc, etc.Don't cringe at being an amature, rather enjoy it's freedom to be creative. I'll just slink away into my corner again now and make some shavings.... Tony I,ll disagree very slightly with you Tony, The professionals of the old daysknew stuff that we have to rediscover and I have not noticed any strikingdevelopments yet among the new crop. OK rod finishing has been developed to the point of garish overstatement.Who would buy a rod now with the primitive yet functional fittings thatGarrison made? There has been a sort of contest on the best finished rodsthat was started by T&T and is now the hallmark of a good flyrod. I think this is a shame really for a good rod is about casting performanceand looking half decent. Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 10 21:48:27 1997 22:45:50 -0500 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Personaly, I don't see a problem with being called an amatuer. Used in the correct way all it realy means is non professional, and no matter how many rods I'll ever make, I don't want to have to earn a living at it. All that would do is force me to find another hobby to unwind with.Besides, amatures don't *have* to perform, they can experiment. It's always been amatures who developed ideas into paying enterprises likeearly planes starting with kites, motors, boats etc, etc.Don't cringe at being an amature, rather enjoy it's freedom to be creative. I'll just slink away into my corner again now and make some shavings.... Tony Tony, I actually have a day job, I am a tool and die maker. When I buildrods I build them making sure that I do not suffer financially. What is thepoint of working in the basement for nothing when I can get overtime rateatwork? I have to make more than overtime rate, its that simple.Terry from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Mar 10 22:03:26 1997 00:02:43 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: going by the book Hey Terry, Bye the bye, Mr Barnes is a member of our list, he appears to be mostaccomodating and congenial. It should be noted that fine wordworking haschanged very little in the past, oh few, hundred years or so. With theexception of time saving power tools, adhesives and finish materials thecraft remains much the same. Some would suggest that even the use ofpowertools is a compromise to the purist. If the goal of a good rod is a marriageof aesthetics and performance, it is important not to lose sight thatbeautyis indeed in the eye of the beholder and user. I personally don't think flyrods need fine tooling on the reel seat a la gun tooling, but many do. I ampleased that some makers do this so that the user (purchaser) can selectthat rod if he/her so chooses. I was once asked "what is the mostsignificant technological change that has taken place in the last 50 years".Other than modern fly lines, ff'ing itself remain unchanged. Graphite,fiberglass, submarine technology, synthetic dubbing, monofilamentleadersdon't make you a better fisherman per se, just poorer and lazier. I figurethat Vince Marinaro or George Harvey could out fish me today with theirgear from the fifties. Anyway, I've run of at the mouth (fingers) enough for one night. Best Regards, JB Regards and thin shavings, JB At 22:08 10/03/97 -0500, you wrote:The problem with building rods by the book is the expense of theequipmentis very high and selling a couple of rods to get some of the original outlayback is necessary. This is difficult because the methods taught in thebookdoes not make it a commercially viable proposition. I had (have) a small rodbuilding book written by a a guy down in Maine,George Burns or Barnes? He made rodmaking look simple, too simple infact,how could you build a bamboo rod with a hunting knife? In retrospect this book is excellent, for the equipment requirements areminimal and an angler can build himself a couple of rods with very littleoutlay. The book may have been a victim of its simplicity. Who wouldbelieverodbuilding was that simple after reading Carmichaels technicallyslightlyover the top offering on a subject that is basically a handicraft! I guess there are two schools of thought.Terry James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 10 22:59:45 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers or plastic. yecchh! from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 10 23:07:16 1997 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Terry,Perhaps for some (yuppie scum, wet-behind-the-ears,more-money- than-sense) fly fisherfolk the finish is the hallmark, but Ihumbly believe that the performance of a rod in casting and playing afish is the acid-test. AHB/AWB.Yet again, as my daddy told me so many years ago"It's just as easy to love a pretty one." ;^)Brian from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Mar 11 05:00:23 1997 KAA20001 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:59:13GMT Subject: A novice's tribulations Good morning everyone. Greetings from southern England. I'm new to yourlist, which is providing some fascinating snippets of information. After twenty-odd years in the soulless plastic wilderness, some of us Britsare returning to proper bamboo rods. Some, more sensitive characters,neverleft them of course. Others of us - perhaps without the innate neuralconnection to the natural integrity of bamboo, needed prompting in onewayor another. We are grateful to those who provided the necessary catalysttoproduce the reaction that was for so long dormant in us. Those of usre-converted tend to be the greatest proselytizers: like recentlyconfirmednon-smokers. There's no harm in that. Returning to bamboo, and thenon-razzmatazz ways of a kinder world is the best thing that hashappened tomy fishing in twenty years. It has put me in touch with folks of like mind:quieter, more aesthetic souls for whom the fishing is more important thanthe fish. I just wish I'd seen the light years ago. The next step is obvious - I must take a piece of that 'lovely reed' andconvert it with my own hands into a fishing rod that combines my love,andmy modest craft, with the Chinese wisdom in the cane. If you think that'stoo romantic, or just plain foolish - keep it to yourself please. It's aslight of mind that gives me pleasure. A couple of year ago I made some bamboo rod-sections on a Moss-type 60degree hardwood former. The top professional who put me on to themethodsuggested that if I couldn't make a good rod by this method, I would be a'pillock' (a British term of derision). The result - I proved to be apillock. Despite being a pretty handy wood-worker, my sections wereinaccurate. The major problems being caused by over-hardening the splitcanestrips before planing, and inadequate wrapping tension during gluingprocess. The resulting sections were not worthy of ferruling, and standyetin the corner - quietly mocking me. Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. It seems that everyone is now using steel formers, and getting goodresults.Does anyone out there have experience of both planing methods? If so, I'dbevery grateful for their view on the relative merits, ease, and accuracy. The high tension wrapping machine shown in the Garrison video lookssuperb.Oh how I'd love to have all the gagets - but for a very part time hobbyistlike me, such high-technology would be too complicated to construct, andtooexpensive to buy. Any ideas? I look forward to hearing from anyone out there in our American colonieswhomay be able to help. Perhaps there's even a kindred soul somewhere inEngland. With best 'fishes' to all. John Olliff-Cooper from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Mar 11 05:21:01 1997 Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:20:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: going by the book Lets talk rods again, James mentioned that name Vince Marinaro and I have to ask again just in case somebody out there has this info.Does anybody have any tapers or more info on the tapers of VinceMarinaro?This idea of his (3 piece rods with convex tapers) which he mentions in "In The Ring Of The Rise" seems a worthwhile idea to follow up. If you haven't read this book he mentions his idea, says it's idea, draws some pictures, gets you interested, then moves on to the next chapter. Tony On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, James Bond wrote: Hey Terry, Bye the bye, Mr Barnes is a member of our list, he appears to be mostaccomodating and congenial. It should be noted that fine wordworkinghaschanged very little in the past, oh few, hundred years or so. With theexception of time saving power tools, adhesives and finish materials thecraft remains much the same. Some would suggest that even the use ofpowertools is a compromise to the purist. If the goal of a good rod is amarriageof aesthetics and performance, it is important not to lose sight thatbeautyis indeed in the eye of the beholder and user. I personally don't think flyrods need fine tooling on the reel seat a la gun tooling, but many do. I ampleased that some makers do this so that the user (purchaser) can selectthat rod if he/her so chooses. I was once asked "what is the mostsignificant technological change that has taken place in the last 50years".Other than modern fly lines, ff'ing itself remain unchanged. Graphite,fiberglass, submarine technology, synthetic dubbing, monofilamentleadersdon't make you a better fisherman per se, just poorer and lazier. I figurethat Vince Marinaro or George Harvey could out fish me today with theirgear from the fifties. Anyway, I've run of at the mouth (fingers) enough for one night. Best Regards, JB Regards and thin shavings, JB At 22:08 10/03/97 -0500, you wrote:The problem with building rods by the book is the expense of theequipmentis very high and selling a couple of rods to get some of the originaloutlayback is necessary. This is difficult because the methods taught in thebookdoes not make it a commercially viable proposition. I had (have) a small rodbuilding book written by a a guy down in Maine,George Burns or Barnes? He made rodmaking look simple, too simple infact,how could you build a bamboo rod with a hunting knife? In retrospect this book is excellent, for the equipment requirements areminimal and an angler can build himself a couple of rods with verylittleoutlay. The book may have been a victim of its simplicity. Who wouldbelieverodbuilding was that simple after reading Carmichaels technicallyslightlyover the top offering on a subject that is basically a handicraft! I guess there are two schools of thought.Terry James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from david_j_rogers@ccm2.hf.intel.com Tue Mar 11 09:10:37 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0w4TFU-000RVPC; Tue, 11 Mar 97 07:13 PST Subject: What did the production makers use for equipment? I have enjoyed reading the posts to this list over the last six monthsor so, but I keep wondering what the production houses did (do)differently than you do (and that I will do--someday) by hand. Doesanyone have information regarding *production* rodmaking equipmentused fascinated by production process. Are there books that talk to theprocesses and equipment used? Thank you and regards, David RogersHillsboro, Oregon from david_j_rogers@ccm2.hf.intel.com Tue Mar 11 09:31:00 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0w4TZD-000RVPC; Tue, 11 Mar 97 07:34 PST Subject: Garrison video John Olliff-Cooper wrote: Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. I've never heard of the Garrison video. Does anyone know where to getit (preferably state-side)? Regards, David RogersHillsboro, Oregon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Mar 11 09:57:34 1997 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Brian I have related this story so much that probably everyone here has heard it.One of the finest fishing rods I ever cast was a 7' Montague Sunbeam,original cost about $5.00. I told my customer that I would not redo the rod it built a new handle and reel seat and refinished the rod. It was a dreamto cast, but you could drive a semi through the glue lines. The differencesin the measurement of the three flats at various points was horrendous.Even after refinishing the rod looked like a dog. On the other hand, I casta Garrison once and I thought it was about as poor a speciman of a fishingtool as I have ever cast. You are right it is easy to love a pretty one,but fame, glitter and shine do not make a good fly rod. Still I like tofeel proud of what I have done, and I guess that that is the ultimate: didI make a good fly rod and am I unashamed to exhibit it to my peers. Ralph Moon At 12:12 AM 3/11/97 -0500, you wrote:Terry,Perhaps for some (yuppie scum, wet-behind-the-ears,more-money-than-sense) fly fisherfolk the finish is the hallmark, but Ihumbly believe that the performance of a rod in casting and playing afish is the acid-test. AHB/AWB.Yet again, as my daddy told me so many years ago"It's just as easy to love a pretty one." ;^)Brian from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Mar 11 10:02:32 1997 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations John, Welcome! It took me twenty years to finish my first rod. Never give uphope. Two bits of my experience for you. Do not try to build a rod onwooden forms. It can be done, but not well. Second, Be innovative andimprovise your tools. I made my binder out of scrap. It is still in usetwenty-five years later and still plubbing along. Ralph Moon At 10:59 AM 3/11/97 GMT, you wrote:Good morning everyone. Greetings from southern England. I'm new to yourlist, which is providing some fascinating snippets of information. After twenty-odd years in the soulless plastic wilderness, some of us Britsare returning to proper bamboo rods. Some, more sensitive characters,neverleft them of course. Others of us - perhaps without the innate neuralconnection to the natural integrity of bamboo, needed prompting in onewayor another. We are grateful to those who provided the necessary catalysttoproduce the reaction that was for so long dormant in us. Those of usre-converted tend to be the greatest proselytizers: like recentlyconfirmednon-smokers. There's no harm in that. Returning to bamboo, and thenon-razzmatazz ways of a kinder world is the best thing that hashappened tomy fishing in twenty years. It has put me in touch with folks of like mind:quieter, more aesthetic souls for whom the fishing is more importantthanthe fish. I just wish I'd seen the light years ago. The next step is obvious - I must take a piece of that 'lovely reed' andconvert it with my own hands into a fishing rod that combines my love,andmy modest craft, with the Chinese wisdom in the cane. If you think that'stoo romantic, or just plain foolish - keep it to yourself please. It's aslight of mind that gives me pleasure. A couple of year ago I made some bamboo rod-sections on a Moss-type 60degree hardwood former. The top professional who put me on to themethodsuggested that if I couldn't make a good rod by this method, I would be a'pillock' (a British term of derision). The result - I proved to be apillock. Despite being a pretty handy wood-worker, my sections wereinaccurate. The major problems being caused by over-hardening the splitcanestrips before planing, and inadequate wrapping tension during gluingprocess. The resulting sections were not worthy of ferruling, and standyetin the corner - quietly mocking me. Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. It seems that everyone is now using steel formers, and getting goodresults.Does anyone out there have experience of both planing methods? If so, I'dbevery grateful for their view on the relative merits, ease, and accuracy. The high tension wrapping machine shown in the Garrison video lookssuperb.Oh how I'd love to have all the gagets - but for a very part time hobbyistlike me, such high-technology would be too complicated to construct, andtooexpensive to buy. Any ideas? I look forward to hearing from anyone out there in our American colonieswhomay be able to help. Perhaps there's even a kindred soul somewhere inEngland. With best 'fishes' to all. John Olliff-Cooper from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Mar 11 10:07:23 1997 Subject: Re: Garrison video David It was made as a motion picture not a video. I don't know if it iscommercially available, but I would guess that Hoagy Carmichael might beaware of its availability.It is interesting and a little informative, but not anything that would addmuch to your building skills. I would be more inclined to think of it as anintroduction to the process aimed at the general public. Ralph Moon At 07:30 AM 3/11/97 -0800, you wrote:John Olliff-Cooper wrote: Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. I've never heard of the Garrison video. Does anyone know where to getit (preferably state-side)? Regards, David RogersHillsboro, Oregon from maiello@yorku.ca Tue Mar 11 11:23:28 1997 (VHGXAOWkAj0HaVIRdOToXhAKZ/v0M3zW@sunspot.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.4/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA23934 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: forms Patrick.I have just finished building a set of forms out of cold rolled.Also, I've been working with stainless for a while. There are a few things which make it more difficult to machine ss overcold rolled. SS has a tendancy to work harden. What this means is that when you aredrilling your holes, if your bit "dwells" (ie sits in one spot for awhile) you will harden the steel to the point where your bit will neverget through. It is very much a feel sort of thing. Also, SS is difficut to cut threads into. I have broken taps more thanonce inside a piece. If that happens, then you start over. This is allmore of a problem for small holes and small taps, but can happen. Also SS will be harder to touch up if there are any spots which need it. Having said that, I think you are right that a SS form would be betteronce built. I found prices for each in canadian $: cold rolled steel : $10 for 6 ft. of 3/4" bar stockSS : $55 for 6 ft. of 3/4" bar stock So $110 vs $20 big diff, but not too bad a price considering all the otherstuff you need to buy. Worth considering.Mauro On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Patrick W. Coffey wrote: Does anybody know if Lon Bluevelt (spelling?) still makes planning forms and if so does anybody have a phone number or e-mail address for him.I was wondering why not use stainless steel to build planning forms, ifa guy is going to put the bevel on the steel forms himself why not usestainless and completly do away with the problem of rust and skin acidseating the surface of the forms. Two peices of stainless to buld a formcan't be that expensive to make the forms or is there another reason Patrick from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 11 13:15:39 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA18579 +0000 Subject: Re: Garrison video Ralph W. Moon wrote: DavidIt was made as a motion picture not a video. I don't know if it iscommercially available, but I would guess that Hoagy Carmichael mightbeaware of its availability.It is interesting and a little informative, but not anything that would addmuch to your building skills. I would be more inclined to think of it asanintroduction to the process aimed at the general public. Ralph Moon At 07:30 AM 3/11/97 -0800, you wrote:John Olliff-Cooper wrote: Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. I've never heard of the Garrison video. Does anyone know where to getit (preferably state-side)? Regards, David RogersHillsboro, Oregon Didn't Carmichael produce the video/movie? I recall an article in Field& Stream a number of years ago which featured him and mentioned that hehad produced a documentary on Garrison shortly before he died. I, too, would like to get a copy, for historical reference, if nothingelse. Best regards,Ed Estlow from bootstrap@earthlink.net Tue Mar 11 13:24:28 1997 Subject: Re: forms Hi, folks. I'm the guy who makes the Bootstrap planing forms from coldrolled. Just to put my $.02 in. I won't use SS because I make them on acomputer controlled milling machine. It's fully automatic. It even changesits own tool when it needs to. And you can imagine the headaches if areamer or tap broke in the middle of a cycle. I won't risk it. When Alputs a set of rods in the fixture and presses the "start" button, he canwalk away and know that when he comes back later there will be acompletedset of forms waiting to be wiped clean and packed for shipment. Ofcourse,Al would never walk away from a running machine, but he could-if hewantedto, and there would still be a finished part when he came back. Thanks forletting me have my say. Frank in Colorado! .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from lawdevil@ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 11 13:27:31 1997 ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Garrison video Ed Estlow wrote: I recall an article in Field& Stream a number of years ago which featured him and mentioned thathehad produced a documentary on Garrison shortly before he died. This sounds suspiciously like a comment made by Yogi Berra after seeingthe movie "The Sand Pebbles" ,i.e., - "I guess Steve McQueen made this movie before hedied" Mike -- Mike Ray "...sex, death and fly- fishing;lawdevil@ix.netcom.com the meanings of life and sport;Atlanta, Georgia are we real participants or just observers,404-332-6661 and what kind of difference does it make?"Cashiers, NC John Gierach704-743-5625 from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Mar 11 15:10:51 1997 Subject: Re: going by the book Marinaro Tony - About 5 years ago Datus Proper, whose writing I admire, wrote apiece interested, but I had no idea how to proceed. As luck would have it, Ihappened to be in VT a few months later and The American Museum of flyfishing had a display of Marinaro's tackle. Included were two rods. Both,frankly, seemed clumsy and overbuilt. I realize that two is not a lot ofrods, and they were in a glass case and I could not handle them, so I maybeunfairly maligning a man who contributed a great deal to our sport. Iwouldadvise a bit of caution before you pursue this, unless you get a differentreport from someone else. -- Tom from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 11 15:21:07 1997 16:17:37 -0500 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations Good morning everyone. Greetings from southern England. I'm new to yourlist, which is providing some fascinating snippets of information. After twenty-odd years in the soulless plastic wilderness, some of us Britsare returning to proper bamboo rods. Some, more sensitive characters,neverleft them of course. Others of us - perhaps without the innate neuralconnection to the natural integrity of bamboo, needed prompting in onewayor another. We are grateful to those who provided the necessary catalysttoproduce the reaction that was for so long dormant in us. Those of usre-converted tend to be the greatest proselytizers: like recentlyconfirmednon-smokers. There's no harm in that. Returning to bamboo, and thenon-razzmatazz ways of a kinder world is the best thing that hashappened tomy fishing in twenty years. It has put me in touch with folks of like mind:quieter, more aesthetic souls for whom the fishing is more importantthanthe fish. I just wish I'd seen the light years ago. The next step is obvious - I must take a piece of that 'lovely reed' andconvert it with my own hands into a fishing rod that combines my love,andmy modest craft, with the Chinese wisdom in the cane. If you think that'stoo romantic, or just plain foolish - keep it to yourself please. It's aslight of mind that gives me pleasure. A couple of year ago I made some bamboo rod-sections on a Moss-type 60degree hardwood former. The top professional who put me on to themethodsuggested that if I couldn't make a good rod by this method, I would be a'pillock' (a British term of derision). The result - I proved to be apillock. Despite being a pretty handy wood-worker, my sections wereinaccurate. The major problems being caused by over-hardening the splitcanestrips before planing, and inadequate wrapping tension during gluingprocess. The resulting sections were not worthy of ferruling, and standyetin the corner - quietly mocking me. Nevertheless, I'm going to do it: I'm going to fish with a good rod thatI've made myself. I've read all the books, and I've been riveted by theGarrison video. It seems that everyone is now using steel formers, and getting goodresults.Does anyone out there have experience of both planing methods? If so, I'dbevery grateful for their view on the relative merits, ease, and accuracy. The high tension wrapping machine shown in the Garrison video lookssuperb.Oh how I'd love to have all the gagets - but for a very part time hobbyistlike me, such high-technology would be too complicated to construct, andtooexpensive to buy. Any ideas? I look forward to hearing from anyone out there in our American colonieswhomay be able to help. Perhaps there's even a kindred soul somewhere inEngland. With best 'fishes' to all. John Olliff-Cooper John, dont bother with a fancy wrapping machine, a couple of springtensionedwashers as on sewing machines is great. High tension is not necessary ,youjust twiddle away. Dont buy these expensive scraper planes just to scrapethe outside coating off, keep it simple. Terry Ackland from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Mar 11 17:09:39 1997 CST Subject: Fwd: Ferrules Mark Huff, who is having some trouble posting seez... Do you use bamboo in the winter? I was on the river on the CrowsnestRiver onSunday, and it was just below freezing. I cleaned ice out of the guidesevery 10 to 20 minutes. I use a graphite rod in the winter, because Iam scared of pulling out a guide while removing ice. I read about Gierachfishing bamboo all winter, but I wonder how cold it is when he goes out.I would like to fish the cane rod, but frankly, it scares the hell out ofme right now. Part of the problem is that no one uses cane around here,so I am sort of going where no man has gone before. Thanks....Mark Huff from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Tue Mar 11 17:12:38 1997 Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:12:23 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: going by the book Tom,Thanks for the warning. By clumsy do you mean club like? To my eyes a lot of the older rods were fairly rough looking and overbuilt. Also, do you think these were the convex taper type rods I'm asking about? Just to relate to you all something I heard last night at a fly club meeting.1) A guy from the US caught an 18lb rainbow in a lake in the NorthIslandof New Zealand recently. 2) I opened my mouth about making cane rods and was told no less than 3 times about "Yanks" going to NZ and Tasmania with their light trout rods and having them tied in knots. I don't know if this is the same guy traveling around displaying his rod knot tying abilities, an urban myth or it just happpens often ;-) I only mention this as possibly these rods aren't over built, they just weren't built for all occasions. I don't know what the guy who caught the fish was using. The area was Taupo region. Tony. On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Marinaro Tony - About 5 years ago Datus Proper, whose writing I admire, wrote apiece interested, but I had no idea how to proceed. As luck would have it, Ihappened to be in VT a few months later and The American Museum of flyfishing had a display of Marinaro's tackle. Included were two rods. Both,frankly, seemed clumsy and overbuilt. I realize that two is not a lot ofrods, and they were in a glass case and I could not handle them, so I maybeunfairly maligning a man who contributed a great deal to our sport. Iwouldadvise a bit of caution before you pursue this, unless you get a differentreport from someone else. -- Tom /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jfoster@gte.net Tue Mar 11 17:36:36 1997 ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:36:33 -0600 Subject: archive Thamks for pointing out the broken links. all operational again. Jerry from BamboRods@aol.com Tue Mar 11 17:40:34 1997 Subject: Re: Garrison video Ralph,There is a video! It is called "Creating the Garrison Fly Rod". It is of thefilm produced by Carmichael & directed by Bill Wheatley. Copyright in1973 692, Mt Kisco. NY 10549. This was on the market in about 1989 when I got mycopy.I don't know about availability now. It was kind of neat to see another rod builder working. We seldom get achance to look over another builders shoulder. You may not learn newtechniques but watching the videos of Garrison and Digger at work is arealjoy.Jon Parker from george.barnes@acornbbs.com Tue Mar 11 18:07:02 1997 TAA12306 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:11:10 - 0500 Subject: FORMS R> from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Mar 10 18:20:35 1997 byR>gray.maine.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id SAA06997 forR>; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:20:24 -0500 R> by wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07759; R>Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net R> by wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07634R> for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:07:16 R>mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) withR> SMTP id AAA21690 for ; Mon, 10R>Mar 1997 23:06:37 +0000 Message-Id: R>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:12:17 -0800 R>Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduR>From: Ed Estlow R>Subject: Re: formsR>References: R>MIME-Version: 1.0 R>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitR>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U)R>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN R>Patrick W. Coffey wrote: R>> Does anybody know if Lon Bluevelt (spelling?) still makes planningR>> forms and if so does anybody have a phone number or e-mail addressR>> for him. I was wondering why not use stainless steel to buildR>> planning forms, if a guy is going to put the bevel on the steelR>> forms himself why not use stainless and completly do away with theR>> problem of rust and skin acids eating the surface of the forms. TwoR>> peices of stainless to buld a form can't be that expensive to makeR>> the forms or is there another reason for not using stainless. AnyR>> information on this would be greatly appr. R>> Patrick R>> from a metalurgical point of view, I would think the free machiningR>forms of stainless would do quite well - 303 (free machining form ofR>304) and 416 are the two grades I've specified for other things. TheR>300 series is basically non-magnetic, if I remember my former lifeR>correctly. These have a machinability index of 60 to 80 (100 being theR>machinability of mild steel, i.e. 1018). Typically, the additives thatR>make steel stainless make it hard to machine. If you can overcomeR>that, stainless is great. R>Also, remember that stainless is a relative term. It is quite easy toR>get "stainless" to corrode under the proper conditions, most commonlyR>excess moisture (like in a garage in winter). The 300 series should beR>more resistant than the 400 series. R>Best regards, R>Ed Estlow R>(caveat: not much knowledge of planing forms, but a fair amount onR>steels) Does anyone else know the story of "Body Cubic" crystalline structure and that of Austinetic", It interested me and I'll share it if others are interested.George Barnes from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Mar 11 18:33:12 1997 Subject: Re: Use of Cane Rods Mark, I was out yesterday and when I got back to the truck, I had ice 6" down therod tip and all the top guides were coated with ice- The worst single day I've fished with cane was on the Missouri when theairtemp was 28F with a strong north wind and 6>8" of snow - midges doingtheirthing and trout rising everywhere. About every 5 casts you needed to clearthe guides. Fished for 5 hours like that - rod still going strong but I wasnear froze.Those organic rods are a lot tougher than they are given credit. Use themwhere you would use plastic and then use 'em when it really gets tough. regards, Don At 03:47 11/03/97 CST, you wrote:Mark Huff, who is having some trouble posting seez... Do you use bamboo in the winter? I was on the river on the CrowsnestRiver onSunday, and it was just below freezing. I cleaned ice out of the guidesevery 10 to 20 minutes. I use a graphite rod in the winter, because Iam scared of pulling out a guide while removing ice. I read aboutGierachfishing bamboo all winter, but I wonder how cold it is when he goes out.I would like to fish the cane rod, but frankly, it scares the hell out ofme right now. Part of the problem is that no one uses cane around here,so I am sort of going where no man has gone before. Thanks....Mark Huff from jsbond@inforamp.net Tue Mar 11 19:41:36 1997 21:40:52 -0400 (AST) Subject: Garrison Video Greetings, To the best of my knowledge (including speaking to Hoagy who no longermakesrods) the Garrison video is not available through commercial sources. AsMrGarrison is no longer living, I don't think anyone would mind if you foundone and made a copy for yourself. There are a few around if one digs. Good Luck JBJames Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from mcreek@sirus.com Tue Mar 11 20:00:54 1997 Subject: Re: what is an amateur? Thanks for sharing the story.You are right, if you can't proudly put your name on it, maybe itsbetter off holding up the tomatos. Brian from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Mar 12 09:27:14 1997 Subject: Re: Use of Cane Rods In a message dated 97-03-11 19:36:16 EST, you write: Those organic rods are a lot tougher than they are given credit. Use themwhere you would use plastic and then use 'em when it really gets tough. regards, Don Mark and Don:A friend of mine chides me for using my good cane at the local creek forsunfish and rock bass when the weather is steaming and the water near hot. Ireply in kind to him for not. RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Mar 12 09:27:17 1997 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations In a message dated 97-03-11 11:55:06 EST, you write: A couple of year ago I made some bamboo rod-sections on a Moss-type 60degree hardwood former. The top professional who put me on to themethodsuggested that if I couldn't make a good rod by this method, I would be a'pillock' (a British term of derision). The result - I proved to be apillock. Despite being a pretty handy wood-worker, my sections wereinaccurate. The major problems being caused by over-hardening the splitcanestrips before planing, and inadequate wrapping tension during gluingprocess. The resulting sections were not worthy of ferruling, and standyetin the corner - quietly mocking me. John - would encourage you to complete the rod already started. Youmight bepleasantly surprised with your work. Or, like Don Anderson's friend Des,youcan decomission it, strip off all the goodies and use them on another rod.Ole # 1 hangs proudly, if otherwise useless, on a wall of my shop. Nothingventured, nothing gained.Regards,RTyree from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 12 10:02:49 1997 Subject: Re: Fwd: Ferrules Mark,If you pull the guides out of a cane rod you'll do the same with agraphite- go on and use it, just be prudent and put the rod in the water toget rid of the ice.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 12 10:02:59 1997 Subject: Re: going by the book Tsk,tsk,you colonial chaps do go on-by the way, I'm sending you the 60 1/2.Keep those shavings thin.Hank. from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Wed Mar 12 10:48:06 1997 Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:47:41 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-03-11 11:55:06 EST, you write: A couple of year ago I made some bamboo rod-sections on a Moss- type60degree hardwood former. The top professional who put me on to themethodsuggested that if I couldn't make a good rod by this method, I would be a'pillock' (a British term of derision). The result - I proved to be apillock. Despite being a pretty handy wood-worker, my sections wereinaccurate. The major problems being caused by over-hardening thesplit canestrips before planing, and inadequate wrapping tension during gluingprocess. The resulting sections were not worthy of ferruling, and standyetin the corner - quietly mocking me. John - would encourage you to complete the rod already started. Youmight bepleasantly surprised with your work. Or, like Don Anderson's friend Des,youcan decomission it, strip off all the goodies and use them on another rod.Ole # 1 hangs proudly, if otherwise useless, on a wall of my shop. Nothingventured, nothing gained.Regards,RTyree You'd be a plonker if you don't finish it and use it. The worst thing that'd happen is it may not wind up being your favourite rod. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 12 14:18:53 1997 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations What's a plonker? from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Mar 12 15:24:27 1997 Subject: Where's ron Barch To all et al:Where is Ron Barch? Frank Neunemann tells me that his e-mail address is no longer valid. Can Ron or anyone else provide his current address.John from tyoung@perth.DIALix.oz.au Wed Mar 12 17:44:50 1997 Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:44:37 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: What's a plonker? Another English term of derision. They have lots of them. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 12 18:09:42 1997 0500 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations John,Finish the rod. A manky wall hanging is better than an unfinishedanything reminding you of your short-comings. If it turns out really bad you can give it to the church for a jumblesale! from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 12 18:59:38 1997 19:56:21 -0500 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations John,Finish the rod. A manky wall hanging is better than an unfinishedanything reminding you of your short-comings. If it turns out really bad you can give it to the church for a jumblesale! John,You could always get your wife or girlfriend to beat you with it! Dont knock it out there, It's part of our British heritage, its what madeus great. Not enough beatings nowdays I say. Terry from BYeom58963@aol.com Wed Mar 12 19:16:51 1997 Subject: Kirkfield Book Looking to purchase a copy of S. Kirkfield's book "Fine bamboo flyrods..." from bootstrap@earthlink.net Wed Mar 12 19:50:14 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch Ron BarchC/O THE PLANING FORMP.O. Box 365Hastings, MI 49058 .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 12 20:28:33 1997 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations AMEN! :-) from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Mar 12 21:33:39 1997 #19314) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, Subject: Use of cane rods What are folks thoughts about fishing weighted nymphs and adding split shot etc. My ex (moved) fishing partner chided me for doing the above ashe thought it overstressed the rod?gerald(jerry)johnson from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 12 21:56:27 1997 0500 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations No, British cooking is much more severe and a better character builderthan any beating. from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Mar 12 22:14:15 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Ron BarchC/O THE PLANING FORMP.O. Box 365Hastings, MI 49058 .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward Frank,I know that address. Do you have an e-mail address??John from KDLoup@aol.com Wed Mar 12 22:21:11 1997 Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book Just Good Books 1(800)207-0799 has/had a copy. The local public libraryinBaton Rouge borrowed the book through the interlibrary loan progam forme.It came from the Auburn University library if anyone is interested. Kurt from richjez@wwa.com Wed Mar 12 22:22:30 1997 (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0w5228-0001ZYC; Wed, 12 Mar 97 22:22 CST Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations Truer words were never spoken. Bangers and allRich Jezioro At 11:01 PM 3/12/97 -0500, you wrote:No, British cooking is much more severe and a better character builderthan any beating. *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @/ /||______________||____________________________________________|| /\ /\ > > / \ > from rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Thu Mar 13 06:04:59 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch At 04:14 PM 3/12/97 -0500, you wrote:To all et al:Where is Ron Barch? Frank Neunemann tells me that his e-mail address is no longer valid. Can Ron or anyone else provide his current address.John To All Ships at Sea....And anybody else that is listening. Ron Barch is alive and well, just too D.....busy lately. Too busy even tolet his friends know about his new e-mail address. My excuse is that Iturned 50 last Monday and have many things to accomplish in the next 50years. Sorry. NEW ADDRESS rbarch@remc8.k12.us Look Forward To Hearing from You. Ron, the books almost done, Barch from bootstrap@earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 07:20:44 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Ron BarchC/O THE PLANING FORMP.O. Box 365Hastings, MI 49058 .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us intatrouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -ArtemusWard Frank,I know that address. Do you have an e-mail address??JohnNo, Don't have an email address. .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from bootstrap@earthlink.net Thu Mar 13 07:32:06 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch Happy birthday, Ron. And you can look forward to getting even busier inthe future. The second fifty is the most fun. Frank in colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Mar 13 08:13:36 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch from tlchmiel@istar.ca Thu Mar 13 08:28:15 1997 Subject: e-mail i have been getting all your mail and replies. i was in terested in canerods and surfed the net to your site. as interested as i am in thissubject, i would prefer not to receive all the e-mail questions andreplies that i am. could you take me of the cc list or what ever youhave to do. i would appreciate it. i do have the site bookmarked.thanks, tom from Jerry.Snider@UC.Edu Thu Mar 13 08:34:28 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch Hey guys, I'm ending the first decade of that second 50. Tell me, when doesthe fun begin? Is it because I have yet to build my first bamboo rod? Isit because health care is going to improve in this country? H'mmm, I DIDcatch a few 22" trout last summer on a 6'6" rod, I DID catch (with mypartner) over 600 grayling in a two-week period for a research project(yeah, that was fun), HELP! Define fun for a newly-turned 60 year old. Ihave almost forgotten what it means!At 05:31 AM 3/13/97 -0800, you wrote:Happy birthday, Ron. And you can look forward to getting even busier inthe future. The second fifty is the most fun. Frank in colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward Jerry Snidere-mail: CINC@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDUhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from Fallcreek9@aol.com Thu Mar 13 08:38:26 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch In a message dated 97-03-13 07:21:42 EST, you write: Ron Barch is alive and well, just too D.....busy lately. Too busy even tolet his friends know about his new e-mail address. My excuse is that Iturned 50 last Monday and have many things to accomplish in the next 50years. Sorry. Ron - the price of success. Also, if you think you are busy at 50, waituntil you "retire". You will find new meaning in the word.RTyree from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Mar 13 09:39:24 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch John & Ron Barch He had 2 - the last one he responeded to was: Ron - saw your note as I was getting back to John - noticed there is adifference betwix your email address you wrote about and the one I usedbefore - which is right?Ron's email address in his note Note the absenceofthe mi. Don At 23:05 12/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Ron BarchC/O THE PLANING FORMP.O. Box 365Hastings, MI 49058 .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us intatrouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -ArtemusWard Frank,I know that address. Do you have an e-mail address??John from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Mar 13 11:34:42 1997 KAA14058; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:34:32 -0700 Subject: more urac I contacted EL Richards of American Cyanamid to see if they could clear up some of my questions on using a kicker with urac. . He said they did not reccomend using NH4CL with URAC and that the walnut flour added strength to the glue. He would not give any specific reccomendation as to the ratio of the mix, but did say that the less NH4CL the thinner the glue consistency. He also said he felt without the walnut flour, the may glue would be too thin, run off the material and not form a good bond. He did not recommend heat setting urac until it had set at room temp for a couple of days. He said any temp over 212 degrees could make the glue too brittle. If John Zimny, or any one on the list has any better information please let me know. I do know the one rod that I used the kicker with the glue lines turned out great, but I am hoping there will not be problems with the glue over time. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 13 15:01:25 1997 15:57:46 -0500 Subject: Re: more urac I contacted EL Richards of American Cyanamid to see if they could clear up some of my questions on using a kicker with urac. . He said they did not reccomend using NH4CL with URAC and that the walnut flour added strength to the glue. He would not give any specific reccomendation as to the ratio of the mix, but did say that the less NH4CL the thinner the glue consistency. He also said he felt without the walnut flour, the may glue would be too thin, run off the material and not form a good bond. He did not recommend heat setting urac until it had set at room temp for a couple of days. He said any temp over 212 degrees could make the glue too brittle. If John Zimny, or any one on the list has any better information please let me know. I do know the one rod that I used the kicker with the glue lines turned out great, but I am hoping there will not be problems with the glue over time. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado Jim,I have the technical data Issued by Cyanamid and the thetemperatures/timesI listed last week came from these 6 pages. Urac is a production glue,couldyou imagine a production shop full of glued up wall panels waiting 12hours high frequency generators. If you do prefere to cold clamp the joint must not be subjected totemperatures below 70F for 5 days to develop its strength and waterresistance. This was also in the data sheet.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 13 15:32:15 1997 16:28:37 -0500 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations No, British cooking is much more severe and a better character builderthan any beating.replyOne of the first things my brother noticed when he visitsd the states lastyear and went into a drug store. He said to me,"Terry there is a wholebleeding isle of indigestion and heartburn medicine". I realised then thatthis is why most Americans have white tongues. Terry from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Thu Mar 13 15:47:42 1997 SVR4) (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA235739407; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:43:27 -0800 Subject: british cooking After spending over a month in England I can assuredly say the britishcooking good food iseffinately a oxymoron. For a country that ruled allthe spice countries of the world they certainly NEVER learned how to usethe or how to cook for that matter!!!!! from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Thu Mar 13 17:30:42 1997 Subject: I'm moving Sorry for taking up some bandwidth. I'd like to make a general list-serv posting of my email address change. AOL finally got to be to much to deal with, today I noticed severalemail postings, on my automatic-download list, were listed as arriving- but no new messages showed up in my in-box. AOL says maybe mypersonalfile was too long. I said maybe your software sucks. So formerly ---> FFer4trout@aol.com NOW -->flyfisher@cmix.com While my old AOL email address should still work for now (maybe!) -please update ASAP me in your own address files to this new address. Don't worry, I will unsubscribe FFer4trout from the list-serv also. Thanks all, Don Burns from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Thu Mar 13 18:16:30 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Archive help I'm new to this list and wonder how you access the archives. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you ThomasP@nacm.com from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 13 19:16:36 1997 ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Cumberlanf Valley TU Rivers Conservation and Flyfishing Youth Camp --TO ALL: An interesting circumstance has developed -- to date we have only 14applicants to this camp. If we do not get at least 28, we will beforced to cancel. Too many people comming from too far to make itfiesable. Unfortunately, the deadline is March 15, but that will be extended tothe first of the week. I just learned of this at our board meetionglast nite. CVamp is June 22 to June 27 at Allenberry Resort in Boiling Springs paon the Yellow Breeches. Insructors include George Harvey, Bob Hunt, BobBehnke, Charles Gauvin, Leon Chandler, Gregg Hoover, Charlie Meck, JoeHumphries, Ken Reinard, Barry Serviente, Ed Shenk, Mark Susinno, and ahost of others too numerous to name. It's truly an outstanding,all-star list. Boys and girls age 14-17 should apply. There are several scholarshipsavailable. Cost is only $300. Applicants can e-mail, fax me name,address, phone number -- along with a short essay on why they want toattend. Also need name, address and phone number of either guidencecounsler or science teacher. No experience level is too low or toohigh. Mainly this is a conservation camp with a lots of rock-rollingand practical work -- we do have a project on Big Springs that the kidswill spend two afternoons on. Do cover casting, tying, rod andewuipment repair and maintainence, art, books, water safety, mosteverything connected with fly fishing -- but the emphasis is still onstream improvement and habitat protection. This is an outstanding opportunity for kids to learn from some of thebest....... I can supply further info as necessary, but we need to jump on thisquick. It would be a shame not to go forward with it. FRED ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FRED BOHLS, CFPBohls Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17011-9698Office: (717) 732- 2448Fax: (717) 732-2414e-mail: fcfp@ix.netcom.comHOME: (717) 732- 5050 from jaquin@netsync.net Thu Mar 13 20:08:03 1997 quartz.netsync.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA24266 for; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:08:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book BYeom58963@aol.com wrote: Looking to purchase a copy of S. Kirkfield's book "Fine bamboo flyrods..."speaking of fine bamboo fly rods, i picked up a heddon "black beauty"today. it is marked #17 8' - 1 1/2 F T & E T & or F? winding areblack. hardware is black enamel over brass and or nickel siver. rod isthree piece with only one tip. the rod hsa been used but not abused. some paint wearing of reel seat and ferrules. the varnish on the buttand center section is good. there are a couple spots on the varnish onthe tip section where the varnish has "crawled". Any Idea of the valueof this rod? from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 13 20:36:38 1997 21:33:01 -0500 Subject: Re: british cooking After spending over a month in England I can assuredly say the britishcooking good food iseffinately a oxymoron. For a country that ruled allthe spice countries of the world they certainly NEVER learned how to usethe or how to cook for that matter!!!!! I think the mouth was not the orifice the hot dog was intended for from dbrady@got.net Thu Mar 13 21:24:59 1997 you.got.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA22964 for; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:15:30 -0800 Subject: Re: Archive help Thomas, I think you'll find this site to your liking, http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm dennis from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 13 22:38:20 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA6281 +0000 Subject: Re: tapers, stiffness, strength To all, I had sent this out a few weeks ago, about the time the list blew upand never got any response. Wonder if it get lost in the ether. I had been responding to the discussion about hollow vs. solid rodstiffness,and it occurred to me . . . I should find out what we really are afterhere. To wit: Do we want strong rods, i.e. do we want the strongest rod crosssections? Do we want stiff rods, i.e., do we want the stiffest rod crosssections? Do we want light rods, i.e., so we want the rod as light as it canpossibly be and still cast a line? Before you say "Yes, of course!" to all three, think about it. We canhave the strongest rod in the world and it could still bend like a wetnoodle - probably undesireable. Witness the current discussions on heattreating. Also, remember that, while the two are related, there is adifference between stiffness (deflection) and strength (yield andbreakage). Of course the true answer in my opinion is we want a compromisebetweenstrength, stiffness, and weight. We each define that compromise in ourown way. The math just helps us quantify our compromise, make itpredictable for the next rod, and make it repeatable, again for thenextrod. Thoughts? Best regards,Ed Estlow(an aerospace engineer in another life) from mrj@seanet.com Fri Mar 14 00:04:20 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08413 for Subject: Re: tapers, stiffness, strength Ed Estlow wrote: To all, I had sent this out a few weeks ago, about the time the list blew upand never got any response. Wonder if it get lost in the ether. I had been responding to the discussion about hollow vs. solid rodstiffness,and it occurred to me . . . I should find out what we really are afterhere. To wit: Do we want strong rods, i.e. do we want the strongest rod crosssections? Do we want stiff rods, i.e., do we want the stiffest rod crosssections? Do we want light rods, i.e., so we want the rod as light as it canpossibly be and still cast a line? Before you say "Yes, of course!" to all three, think about it. We canhave the strongest rod in the world and it could still bend like a wetnoodle - probably undesireable. Witness the current discussions on heattreating. Also, remember that, while the two are related, there is adifference between stiffness (deflection) and strength (yield andbreakage). Of course the true answer in my opinion is we want a compromisebetweenstrength, stiffness, and weight. We each define that compromise in ourown way. The math just helps us quantify our compromise, make itpredictable for the next rod, and make it repeatable, again for thenextrod. Thoughts? Best regards,Ed Estlow(an aerospace engineer in another life)I can respond as to a novices' viewpoint here. I am planning to build a8.5 ft. 6 wt. rod and plan to use hollow construction. The rods I havebuilt 8 ft. and under (5), I do not have a problem with the weight. Iam copying a granger "Victory" model for the 8.5 ft. and I liked theaction but it was just a tad bit heavy for casting all day (IMO). So, Ipersonally do not plan on doing any hollow construction on rods 8 ft.and under. If this one works out OK than I will probably build a fewmore rods over 8 ft. I don't care if it weakens the rod a little bit (Idoubt it will) as it seems that most rods are broken in car doors notcasting. from gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk Fri Mar 14 05:35:18 1997 [130.209.135.199] sender gqla14) by lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk (8.8.5/UK- 2.2a/cent-sparc) with SMTP id LAA01988 for; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:34:58 GMT Subject: Doweling jigs I had been hoping to make a start on my forms in the next few days but have just suffered another set back, Starret are sold out of 60 degree points, there will be a three week delay before they can mail me one. This has given me time to reconsider my options for drilling the forms for the shoulder bolts. i had considered buying a dowelling jig or drill stand but decided for what is hopefuully a one off job I would be much cheaper hiring a drill stand. So far I have paid about 4 times the USA price for my hardware, shoulderbolts etc. and was wondering if I could get a reasonably priced dowelling jig capable of drilling concentric 3/8 and 1/4 holes from the USA. My mother is visiting my sister in Phoenix untill the end of March and could possibly bring one home. Can anyone give me a price and catalogue number for a suitable jig. Thanks in advance.John KennedyResearch TechnicianDept of SurgeryWestern InfirmaryGlasgow from rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Fri Mar 14 06:59:56 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch At 08:35 AM 3/13/97 -0700, you wrote:John & Ron Barch He had 2 - the last one he responeded to was: Ron - saw your note as I was getting back to John - noticed there is adifference betwix your email address you wrote about and the one I usedbefore - which is right?Ron's email address in his note Note the absenceofthe mi. Don At 23:05 12/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Ron BarchC/O THE PLANING FORMP.O. Box 365Hastings, MI 49058 .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us intatrouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -ArtemusWard Frank,I know that address. Do you have an e-mail address??John LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RON BARCH'S NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS......rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Does everyone's brain turn to mush after 50??? from rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Fri Mar 14 07:01:36 1997 Subject: Re: Where's ron Barch At 04:14 PM 3/12/97 -0500, you wrote:To all et al:Where is Ron Barch? Frank Neunemann tells me that his e-mail address is no longer valid. Can Ron or anyone else provide his current address.John OOPS.....Try this address, it may work. rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us from DANNUGENT@aol.com Fri Mar 14 08:19:37 1997 Subject: Re: Cumberlanf Valley TU Rivers Conservation and FlyfishingYouth Camp FRED and all I know a kid that had the oppertunity to pertake in this school.He had benifited from it greatly.You can not say enough about this oppertunity for kids. My one complaint is the age limit !Is it not possable to see if the age requirment could be lowerd to12 years old.I really hope that this school dose not falter away my three sons arelooking forward to atending in the future. Thanks DAN NUGENTManchester,Pa. from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Mar 14 08:59:51 1997 Subject: Marinaro Tapers There have been a few mentions of these tapers on the list, and it finallydawned on me that I knew someone who had fished with Marinaro in hislateryears. Basically, my friend confirmed what Datus Proper had said in his TUarticle. Mr. Marinaro was obsessively secretive about the tapers, and couldnot stand the idea that someone else would make money marketing hisdesigns.Any rod that he was finished with, or a new rod that did not meet hisstandards was consigned to the fireplace. My friend estimates that at thetime of his illness and subsequent death, about 1/2 dozen rods survived. Isaw two at the museum, I suppose it is possible that they ended up withallof them. My friend says he will try to make a few phone calls to otherswhowere cronies of Marinaro at the end to see if he can find out where therodsgot off to. If anyone has any contact at the Museum, perhaps they could addto the story.My friend spent a day fishing with a 9 1/2 foot 6 weight, and confirms myimpression that the rod was unabashedly a heavyweight, but said it was animpressive caster, a cannon, to use his words.I don't really know where to go from here, I personally think the tapersshould be preserved, if possible, as a part of angling history. If a rod canbe found, and permission granted to measure it, I would do so, but in viewofMarinaro's feelings be reluctant to publish unless permission could beobtained from his heirs. Any other ideas out there? -- Tom from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 14 09:24:12 1997 Subject: Re: A novice's tribulations Aha,The Empire strikes back!This colonial's tongue ain't white ,only forked.Hank-not enuf time to fish-Woolman. from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Fri Mar 14 09:59:27 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA31689 for; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: Tapers Hello all, It is my understanding that the Museum Of Flyfishing in Manchester, VT has lots of bamboo rods. Is this true?? I was there once but theupstairs was getting renovated or something and could not get up there. Would it be unethical to pursue the permission to measure some of these rods that are tough to find in the real world? Just a thought, I'd be willing to take on the task, I think it would be a great little research project. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Fri Mar 14 10:17:35 1997 Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book RO>BYeom58963@aol.com wrote:RO>>RO>> Looking to purchase a copy of S. Kirkfield's book "Fine bambooflyrods..."RO>speaking of fine bamboo fly rods, i picked up a heddon "black beauty"RO>today. it is marked #17 8' - 1 1/2 F T & E T & or F? winding areRO>black. hardware is black enamel over brass and or nickel siver. rod isRO>three piece with only one tip. the rod hsa been used but not abused.RO>some paint wearing of reel seat and ferrules. the varnish on the buttRO>and center section is good. there are a couple spots on the varnish onRO>the tip section where the varnish has "crawled". Any Idea of the valueRO>of this rod? An 8' B.B. 1 1/2F with one tip and not short in any sections (also nobag or tube, I guess) is a nice rod, value is about $200 - $250 in yourstated condition. Restored maybe $400? Hardware is "japaned" NS. Sounds like you should invest in a copy ofMichael Sinclair's "Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook" for details onHeddon rods (no values listed). For on-line rod values try this URL:http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htm All values are IMHO, Don Burns from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Fri Mar 14 10:54:03 1997 CST Subject: AJ Thramer??? Any of you northwest rodmakers have a current email address forAJ and/or a snail-mail address or telephone number. He is no longer on the list, and his dixalee@aol.com address isno longer valid. Thanks... Mike - Eugene, Oregon telephone directory-less - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Mar 14 11:13:48 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Tom - I was there some years ago and found the people to beextrordinarilynice. They seem to have a great collection. In addition to the Marinarorods,they had a lambuth original. I couldn't believe one existed on the eastcoast. The curator told me they had another in the vault. I don't know whattheir reaction to someone wanting to mike rods would be. I have mixedemotions myself. On the one hand, if a company is out of business, likeLeonard, I've got no problem. On the other hand, should we publish an Orvisor Young taper? - -- Tom from BamboRods@aol.com Fri Mar 14 11:22:07 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Tom A. & Tom Smithwick,In the past when Don Johnson was director of the museum he allowedpeople tomic rods. I am sure if you wrote or called they would allow you to collecttapers on Vince M's rods if they were not on exhibit at the time.Jon Parker from jsbond@inforamp.net Fri Mar 14 11:25:28 1997 13:24:48 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: AJ Thramer??? I think I remember AJ signing off the list a while back, I don't think he ison- line ant longer, too bad. JB At 09:32 PM 13/03/97 CST, you wrote:Any of you northwest rodmakers have a current email address forAJ and/or a snail-mail address or telephone number. He is no longer on the list, and his dixalee@aol.com address isno longer valid. Thanks... Mike - Eugene, Oregon telephone directory-less - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Fri Mar 14 11:49:44 1997 Subject: ferrules As I read Garrison (p117) he indicates that when fitting ferrules "youmustmake sure that the splits are in the middle of the flats. This precautionallows the thin ends of the cap to fold over the corners of the hexagon,givingadded protection to the glue lines and to the edge of the strips at the pointwhere the stresses will be very high" Most of the rods I've seen (all of the rods I've built) have the serrationscentered on the corners not on the flats. What are others's thoughts aboutthis? It seems to me Garrison is right about added strength (is thatpresumptuous?), but that it might increase the difference in stiffnessbetweenthe end of the ferrule and the begining of the blank enough to be a problem. Myfear is that it would further concentrate forces at just that point ratherthantransfer the energy gradually from stiff ferrule to (relatively) flexibleblank. Certainly Garrison's rods didn't all break at that point, but it doesraise a question, don't you think? -- Mark M. Freed, Ph.DDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from DANNUGENT@aol.com Fri Mar 14 11:52:15 1997 Subject: THREAD Can anyone tell me a good thread to use with the binder.Having problems finding glace cotton thread in my area.THANKS !!! DAN DANNUGENT@AOL from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Fri Mar 14 12:03:56 1997 with BSMTP id 0207; Fri, 14 Mar 97 13:02:46 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 1726; Fri, 14 Mar1997 13:02:46 -0500Subject: Re: Doweling jigs John, One such doweling jig is called "Dowel It"and is available from Woodcraft or just about anyUS woodworking store. They have several models, one at 1/4 or 5/16 etc. This is a well made tool andworks very well with wood, with steel forms that'sa different matter. I have tried it and would have tosay that a milling machine is a far better opition becauseit eliminates the slight errors you get even with thevery careful use of this rig. But then you didn'tsay whether you were drilling wooden forms or steel.Hope that helps. Bob. from BYeom58963@aol.com Fri Mar 14 12:37:12 1997 Subject: Re: Kirkfield Book My thoughts exactly. This sounds like a later date #17, since according toMike Sincliar, The earlier #17s had orange tipping from bokstrom@axionet.com Fri Mar 14 12:52:09 1997 Subject: Re: THREAD ----------From: DANNUGENT@aol.com Subject: THREADDate: Friday, March 14, 1997 9:49 AM Can anyone tell me a good thread to use with the binder.Having problems finding glace cotton thread in my area.THANKS !!! DANTry your local craft or sewing shop for crochet cotton. It comes in manyweights (sizes?) and I've yet to encounter a knot.John from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 14 14:23:16 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Tom,Go for it,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Mar 14 14:23:21 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Tom,It seems to me that any current rod maker that has rods out in the publicarena has rods that can be miced, at least by their owners. I have noobjection to anyone micing my own tapers-we're all reinventing the wheelanyway. Besides, there's more to a rod than just the taper. Just my $.02worth,Hank. from rmoon@dns.ida.net Fri Mar 14 18:38:24 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Mark: I agree completely with you. There are many things that Garrison advisedthat I have the feeling constituted only empirical knowledge, and had noexperimental basis for such advice. One of the most likely places for arodto break (other than the tip in a screen door) is at the ferrule station andany factor that increases stress at that point seems to me to besomethingto eschew. Ralph Moon At 12:49 PM 3/14/97 -0500, you wrote:As I read Garrison (p117) he indicates that when fitting ferrules "youmustmake sure that the splits are in the middle of the flats. This precautionallows the thin ends of the cap to fold over the corners of the hexagon,givingadded protection to the glue lines and to the edge of the strips at thepointwhere the stresses will be very high" Most of the rods I've seen (all of the rods I've built) have the serrationscentered on the corners not on the flats. What are others's thoughtsaboutthis? It seems to me Garrison is right about added strength (is thatpresumptuous?), but that it might increase the difference in stiffnessbetweenthe end of the ferrule and the begining of the blank enough to be aproblem. Myfear is that it would further concentrate forces at just that point ratherthantransfer the energy gradually from stiff ferrule to (relatively) flexibleblank. Certainly Garrison's rods didn't all break at that point, but it doesraise a question, don't you think? -- Mark M. Freed, Ph.DDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from mrj@seanet.com Fri Mar 14 19:00:38 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02022 for Subject: Re: THREAD DANNUGENT@aol.com wrote: Can anyone tell me a good thread to use with the binder.Having problems finding glace cotton thread in my area.THANKS !!! DAN DANNUGENT@AOLI don't know what kind of binder you have but I use a Milward design andget cotton covered polyester "Button and Craft" thread at the localsewing store. It is "Coats" brand and the spools are small. About thesame size as regular sewing thread spools. from GLohkamp@aol.com Fri Mar 14 19:04:44 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods Jerry lt's good to hear that lam not the only one . Good fishing Gary from mcreek@sirus.com Fri Mar 14 19:46:22 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Not only do I think that this is a great idea, I think that it wouldmake a terrific sales item (and revenue source) for the museum. One ofthe functions of museums is to preserve for study, to connect us to thepast. from the threads I've read on this list and discussions with avery few makers, we seem to be covering old ground for lack of oldknowledge in many areas, especially tapers.To be really useful a taper list would also include comments from atruly good & experienced cane rod caster critiquing the action anddrawing some conclusions and hypothesizing.Sounds like a team project. Who best to head this up? from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Mar 14 22:06:40 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers In a message dated 97-03-14 12:32:56 EST, you write: Tom A. & Tom Smithwick,In the past when Don Johnson was director of the museum he allowedpeople tomic rods. I am sure if you wrote or called they would allow you tocollecttapers on Vince M's rods if they were not on exhibit at the time.Jon Parker Tom - should you, perhaps the mystery of the casting rod taper could besolved. Re: Charles K Fox's book, Advanced Bait Casting, and the Marinarotaper of the 6'-6" rod for 1/4 oz. lures. We had some discussions thatthereis apparently a dimension absent in the taper given in the book. Regards,RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 15 08:37:04 1997 Subject: Re: THREAD In a message dated 97-03-14 13:02:20 EST, you write: Can anyone tell me a good thread to use with the binder.Having problems finding glace cotton thread in my area.THANKS !!! DAN DANNUGENT@AOL Dan - I am presently using a glaced cotton purchased in the fabrics dept ofWal-Mart labled "hand quilting thread" or words to that effect. from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Mar 15 08:47:55 1997 Subject: Re: THREAD Dan, I've used macrame cotton string for years - got a lifetime supply during aclearance sale when macrame went out of fashion as a hobby. Got realobnoxious colors too - makes it easy to see when you are removing theglue. regards, Don At 12:49 14/03/97 -0500, you wrote:Can anyone tell me a good thread to use with the binder.Having problems finding glace cotton thread in my area.THANKS !!! DAN DANNUGENT@AOL from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Mar 15 08:47:59 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods Jerry,I have no iddea how cane rods got the reputation for not being tough. Justthink - from the mid 1800's to 1955 or thereabouts, cane was about theonly game in town. Cane rods caught everything from trout to tuna - and Iwould venture - a lot more of each than is available today.I would suspect that the tenderness of cane is a marketing ploy by theplastic boys to discredit cane.I fish cane just as I would any other rod - never let fear of nymphs, leadcore lines, shot or anything else stop it from catching fish. regards, Don At 19:28 12/03/97 -0700, you wrote:What are folks thoughts about fishing weighted nymphs and adding split shot etc. My ex (moved) fishing partner chided me for doing the above ashe thought it overstressed the rod?gerald(jerry)johnson from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Mar 15 08:48:10 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers At 11:00 14/03/97 +0000, you wrote:Hello all, It is my understanding that the Museum Of Flyfishing in Manchester, VT has lots of bamboo rods. Is this true?? I was there once but theupstairs was getting renovated or something and could not get up there. Would it be unethical to pursue the permission to measure some of these rods that are tough to find in the real world? Just a thought, I'd be willing to take on the task, I think it would be a great little research project. Tom, If permission could be obtained from the heirs and the museum, I wouldcertainly be interested in the Maniraro tapers. He fished in some of thesame type of places I do.His book mentions a 9' 5 wt. that he considered the best rod for springcreeks. That one would really interest me.Keep us posted. regards, Don Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Mar 15 08:52:59 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers Yes _ I remember the discussion. If we make any progress I'll keep it inmind.- -- Tom from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Mar 15 09:04:35 1997 10:00:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Tapers Not only do I think that this is a great idea, I think that it wouldmake a terrific sales item (and revenue source) for the museum. One ofthe functions of museums is to preserve for study, to connect us to thepast. from the threads I've read on this list and discussions with avery few makers, we seem to be covering old ground for lack of oldknowledge in many areas, especially tapers.To be really useful a taper list would also include comments from atruly good & experienced cane rod caster critiquing the action anddrawing some conclusions and hypothesizing.Sounds like a team project. Who best to head this up? All,I think that putting a micrometer across the flats of rods with varnish andguides still attached would only be a rough approximation and not accurateenough for hand planersSome time back the American Museum of Flyfishing conducted a survey offavourite cane flyrods in their American Fly Fisher journal and theysuggested that some makers rods varied so much in calibration for thesamemodel of rod that it was difficult to be objective. These were production rods and were built as tools for every angler, notasesoteric toys for a 'crackpot fringe'. I think we should leave well enoughalone and preserve the myth and perhaps find out why their rods fished sowell. It was also mentioned in the journal that T&T rods did not figure thatgreatas a favourite rod. This furthers my belief that the old geezers knew morethat what is available! for not too many contemporary builders wareincluded. Terry taking a close look at rods that were built as fishing tools not esoterictoys. I'm sure that builders would prefer to develop their own tapers, it is a lotmore fun. A taper bank would be interesting but also confusing. Terry from bootstrap@earthlink.net Sat Mar 15 10:10:23 1997 Subject: Re: going travelling postpone .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Mar 15 12:44:31 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Use of cane rods Don,Amen to your cane use- I've been "abusing" cane for years.Hank. from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Mar 15 12:50:49 1997 NAA09024 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:50:44 Subject: Reel seats To the list, 3/14/97In connection with reel seats the following terms seem to be used:spacer,filler, insert and arbor. Could someone clear up my confusion as to theirmeanings? Thanks, Bill from DANNUGENT@aol.com Sat Mar 15 13:09:44 1997 Subject: THREAD THANKS TO ALL I made my binder to garrison and wayne's books.I made some extra parts for those that might need them.Just e-mail me at DANNUGENT@AOL. Just thought i would mention that if anybody would be interested in them. THANKS AGAINDAN from RobBrady@ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 15 13:29:18 1997 ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Please take me off the rodmakers E-Mail Can someone please help me remove my name from this list? I think it isafine forum, and no disrepect is intended. I would be glad for some help. Thanks. from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Sat Mar 15 15:50:46 1997 Subject: Reel seats RO>To the list, 3/14/97RO> In connection with reel seats the following terms seem to be used:spacer,RO>filler, insert and arbor. Could someone clear up my confusion as totheirRO>meanings? Thanks, Bill Bill, Spacer = the piece of the reelseat between the butt end (pocket orthreads) and the front end of the realseat (threads or pocket -Downlocking or Uplocking reelseats, respectfully). Might be made out ofa piece of fancy wood, cork, metal or (God forbid) plastic. Filler = Spacer Insert = Spacer Arbor = a material used under the spacer to fill in any air-gap betweenthe I.D. of the reelseat spacer and the O.D. of the rod blank. Might bemade from cork, wood, (plastic?) or even just some masking tape. Don Burns from rickcunn@tenet.edu Sat Mar 15 18:52:42 1997 Subject: Re: THREAD On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 DANNUGENT@aol.com wrote: THANKS TO ALL I made my binder to garrison and wayne's books.I made some extra parts for those that might need them.Just e-mail me at DANNUGENT@AOL. Just thought i would mention that if anybody would be interested inthem. THANKS AGAINDAN Dan,I am interested in what you have in the way of binder parts. What parts do you have and how much are they. I am just beginning to build a binder. Thanks,Rick CunninghamRanger, Texas from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Mar 15 20:05:28 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods In a message dated 97-03-15 13:55:34 EST, you write: Don,Amen to your cane use- I've been "abusing" cane for years.Hank. Don and Hank - One great thing about our cane building: so what if youbreakone, just build another. Has anyone ever worn out a cane rod?RT from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Mar 15 21:34:24 1997 22:30:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods In a message dated 97-03-15 13:55:34 EST, you write: Don,Amen to your cane use- I've been "abusing" cane for years.Hank. Don and Hank - One great thing about our cane building: so what if youbreakone, just build another. Has anyone ever worn out a cane rod?RT Andy Barr an old Scottish rodbuider in Montreal Canada who has sincediedshowed me one of his bamboo rods that a customer dropped in the river inthe spring and only found in the late summer when the water had dropped. Just above the grip the rod was worn 30% through where it had rubbedagainstsomething in the current! I did not assemble the rod but visually it wasnottoo bad except for the worn portion. Does this qualify as wearing out bamboo rod? Terry from santiago@ricochet.net Sun Mar 16 01:20:27 1997 XAA22660 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:20:16 - Subject: looking for a couple of books hello all, i am looking for a couple of books and hope to get them without havingto get a second mortgage. Martin J. Keane - Classic Rod and RodmakersErnest Schweibert - Trout 2 vols thanks in advance, leo from cparham@crocker.com Sun Mar 16 06:42:01 1997 rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA32543 for; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:39:51 GMT Subject: One piece 2 wt. Does anyone have a taper for a short ( from sats@gte.net Sun Mar 16 09:27:22 1997 ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:27:19 -0600 Subject: Re: Tapers On Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:00:19 -0500, you wrote: I'm sure that builders would prefer to develop their own tapers, it is alotmore fun. A taper bank would be interesting but also confusing. Terry I think that tapers are only a place to start. Anyone who's been doingit as long as you have will have come to their own conclusions aboutwhat's good. But for someone who doesn't know where to start it's abeginning. After two or three really bad rods, the individualstarrts to come through. Terry Kirkpatrick Safety Harbor, Flsats@gte.net Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from BYeom58963@aol.com Sun Mar 16 10:50:36 1997 Subject: Re: looking for a couple of books I Think the Keane book may be reprinted soon by Centenial publications. Asfar as "Trout" the going rate is arround $150+, But like anything else, itwill vary with edition and condition. Bill from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Mar 16 14:43:23 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods In a message dated 97-03-15 22:45:18 EST, you write: Just above the grip the rod was worn 30% through where it had rubbedagainstsomething in the current! I did not assemble the rod but visually it wasnottoo bad except for the worn portion. Does this qualify as wearing out bamboo rod? Terry Yes. But not quite what I had in mind.RT from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Mar 16 19:55:02 1997 Subject: Re: Reel seats Bill,I believe that the insert refers to the fancy wood or cork or whateverthat compliments your metal fittings while the other 3 terms refer to thematerials we use to fill the space between the o.d. of the blank and the i.d.of the reel seat(insert et al). Some one may correct me if I'm wrong.Hank. from rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Sun Mar 16 20:29:05 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods At 09:04 PM 3/15/97 -0500, you wrote:In a message dated 97-03-15 13:55:34 EST, you write: Don,Amen to your cane use- I've been "abusing" cane for years.Hank. Don and Hank - One great thing about our cane building: so what if youbreakone, just build another. Has anyone ever worn out a cane rod?RT Richard.....Ya.... I think my dad did when I was a kid....Only it was on myrear end not on the river!!!!!!Ron> from rbarch@remc8.k12.mi.us Sun Mar 16 20:33:05 1997 Subject: Re: One piece 2 wt. At 07:45 AM 3/16/97 -0800, you wrote:Does anyone have a taper for a short (rod? I would like to make a rod to fish in small spring creeks. Many of these creeks here in Mass. have good size native brookies and even small browns. The banks are usually overgrown with low trees so there is little room to cast. Fishing is these spots is great in the spring and few people bother to go to the trouble to search them out. Thank you Eric Parham Eric,Look up a guy named Digger DeGere in Adams Mass....He makes some ofthenicest small fly rods in the world!!!! Tell him Ron sent you. Buy him abeer for me and say hello. Ron Barch ps Jon Parker or Tom Smithwick have some real nice ones too.> from devino@inlink.com Sun Mar 16 20:46:29 1997 thor.inlink.com (8.8.0/V8) with SMTP id UAA25957 for Subject: Re: Use of cane rods At 07:28 PM 3/12/97 -0700, GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU said something like:What are folks thoughts about fishing weighted nymphs and adding split shot etc. My ex (moved) fishing partner chided me for doing the above ashe thought it overstressed the rod? I'm getting a second rod almost expressly for just that purpose. It's toreplace a nine foot graphite 5WT that I use now for bigger wwater fishing.It mostly gets used for nymphing and streamer fishing. Lotsa beadheads,weighted nymphs and sometimes shot fishing in there. And always with abigwad of yarn for an indicator to boot. I have a short (cane) rod that I tried that with and a it was a horrendousnightmare to cast. -=Mark=- from tpaulsen@ecity.net Sun Mar 16 22:23:33 1997 Subject: Weldwood resorcinol glue I am ready to glue up me first rod, and need to know if I have the rightglue.The resorcinol glue I have been able to locate is marketed by Dap, theirWeld Wood Resorcinol Glue. It appears that the main copolymer in it is#24969-11-7In the Garrison book there is the mention of different types of resorcinol.Do I have the proper type? Thanks for your assistance. Terry Paulsen from sleach@plessey.co.za Mon Mar 17 00:28:07 1997 07:42:11 +0200 via smap (V3.1) 17 Mar 97 08:29:45 GMT+0200 GMT+0200 Subject: Flame drying a Culm Are there any instructions, or FAQ's, on flaming a culm. Myattempts have produced either a dirty blond or charcoal. (carbonfibre cane ??). I have not managed to get any thing that look likethe lovely dark hony colour the boffins achieve. Steve LeachCape TownSouth Africa from russett@bcn.net Mon Mar 17 05:35:05 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA25378 for Subject: Re: One piece 2 wt. Ronald J. Barch wrote: At 07:45 AM 3/16/97 -0800, you wrote:Does anyone have a taper for a short ( >rod? I would like to make a rod to fish in small spring creeks. Many ofthese creeks here in Mass. have good size native brookies and evensmallbrowns. The banks are usually overgrown with low trees so there islittleroom to cast. Fishing is these spots is great in the spring and fewpeople bother to go to the trouble to search them out. Thank you Eric Parham Eric,Look up a guy named Digger DeGere in Adams Mass....He makes some ofthenicest small fly rods in the world!!!! Tell him Ron sent you. Buy him abeer for me and say hello. Ron Barch ps Jon Parker or Tom Smithwick have some real nice ones too.> Eric,You will never find Digger using the name Digger. Get a hold of him by calling Points North Fly Shop in Adams MA Larry Russett from george.barnes@acornbbs.com Mon Mar 17 07:00:35 1997 IAA14697 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:04:31 -0500 Subject: ONE PIECE 2 WT. R> from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sun Mar 16 07:50:41 1997 byR>gray.maine.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id HAA22579 forR>; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:50:41 -0500 R> by wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA17860; R>Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com R> id GAA16363 for ; Sun, 16 Mar R>rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA32543 forR>; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:39:51 GMTR>Message-Id: R>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:45:26 - 0800 R>Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduR>From: Charles Parham R>Subject: One piece 2 wt.R>MIME-Version: 1.0 R>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitR>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U)R>X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN R>Does anyone have a taper for a short (rod? I would like to make a rod to fish in small spring creeks. ManyR>of these creeks here in Mass. have good size native brookies and evenR>small browns. The banks are usually overgrown with low trees so thereR>is little room to cast. Fishing is these spots is great in the springR>and few people bother to go to the trouble to search them out. R>Thank you R>Eric Parham I've got tapers generated by computer program for a two piece 6' for a number 2 line. I like the feel of the rod but have never caught anything of substantial size on it.George B. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Mar 17 09:55:40 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods In a message dated 97-03-16 21:34:21 EST, you write: Richard.....Ya.... I think my dad did when I was a kid....Only it was on myrear end not on the river!!!!!!Ron> Hope it wasn't too paynefull. Still wasn't quite what was I had in mind,tho.RTPs- glad to see you resurfaced. from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Mon Mar 17 10:40:21 1997 2.0/2.12um) id IAA000.49; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:26:10 -0500 Subject: Re: AJ Thramer??? Mike: Good morning! I found this snail-mail address for A.J. under the BambooRodmaker's Directory: 645 Powers - Unit CEugene, OR 97402 Sorry - no phone number or email address that I can find. Rich Brown from kkimmel@tnc.com Mon Mar 17 12:07:28 1997 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA09306 for Subject: My bent cane rod Can anyone give some suggestions on how to get a severe bent out of acanerod I inherited from my father? This rod is about 45 years old. ---------------------------------- ------------------------KEN KIMMELHYDRIL CANADIAN CO., LTD2307 8 ST.NISKU, ALBERTAT9E 7Z3PH. 403 955 2045FAX 403 955 7627 from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Mon Mar 17 12:59:21 1997 services.state.mo.us (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id MAA21617 for Subject: Rodmakers, New and Old To the List: Last week someone wrote:">Some time back the American Museum of Flyfishing conducted a survey of favourite cane flyrods in their American Fly Fisher journal and they suggested that some makers rods varied so much in calibration These were production rods and were built as tools for every angler, not as esoteric toys for a 'crackpot fringe'. I think we should leave well enough alone and preserve the myth and perhaps find out why their rods fished so well. It was also mentioned in the journal that T&T rods did not figure thatgreatas a favourite rod. This furthers my belief that the old geezers knew morethan what is available! for not too many contemporary builders were included. from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Mar 17 13:18:29 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) 13:18:32 -0600 Subject: RE: Rodmakers, New and Old 4.0.994.63 Terry, And how might we ' find out why their rods fished so well.' Withoutexamining them? That is cast them, measure them, and then try to replicate them. Olaf Borge,Love many, trust few, paddle your own canoe. ----------From: TERRY FINGER[SMTP:tfinger@services.state.mo.us]Sent: Monday, March 17, 1997 7:00 AM Subject: Rodmakers, New and Old To the List: Last week someone wrote:">Some time back the American Museum of Flyfishing conducted a survey of favourite cane flyrods in their American Fly Fisher journal and they suggested that some makers rods varied so much in calibration These were production rods and were built as tools for every angler, not as esoteric toys for a 'crackpot fringe'. I think we should leave well enough alone and preserve the myth and perhaps find out why their rods fished so well. It was also mentioned in the journal that T&T rods did not figure thatgreatas a favourite rod. This furthers my belief that the old geezers knewmorethan what is available! for not too many contemporary builders were included. I have few doubts that the "old geezers" knew more than what is available, but in something as subjective as the evaluation of casting performance, I'd wager that psychological factors also come into play. By this I mean that, all else being equal, certain older rodmakers that are now in favor will rank higher in such surveys than other rodmakers, recent or old, that are not now trendy. early 1970's and one by maker Y from the early 1960's. I have fished the maker Y for 30+ years and the maker X for 20 years. To my hand, both are wonderful, sweet rods with very similar performance, and I would never part with either. Yet I'm sure the maker X would rank considerably higher in nearly all surveys, simply because it is by a defunct maker that is now very trendy, while it has almost become trendy to denigrate maker Y. {By the way, I also have a 8', 6-wt. T&T from the early 1970's that not only looks better than either of the above, but performs with the best of them as well.} Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 17 13:48:11 1997 Subject: Re: Rodmakers, New and Old Terry,I agree-After casting several of the T&T rods over the years I considerT&T to be one of the best production rodmakers today( although I haven'tcastany since the last ownership change)The heck with trends-if it appeals to me I use it.Hank. from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Mon Mar 17 13:49:57 1997 services.state.mo.us (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA26583 for Subject: RE: Rodmakers, New and Old Olaf wrote: "And how might we ' find out why their rods fished so well.' Withoutexamining them? That is cast them, measure them, and then try to replicate them. " My point, exactly. Personal experience with both new and old rods is preferable to survey data. Terrytfinger@services.state.mo.us from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 17 13:50:23 1997 Subject: Re: My bent cane rod Ken,The rod's age may make it reset after staightening. After using a heatgun (for paint removing) to straighten the rod try taping it to a straightdowel.I f over time the dowel takes a set you know you're in big troubleandsomeone better than will have to advise you -good luck.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 17 13:50:44 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods Ron,What had you done to get caned?Hank. from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Mon Mar 17 14:08:12 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Hwlp with archive Trying this one again - can anyone direct me how to access the archive for this list - I'm trying to avoid duplicating past questions? Thank you. Also, could any list member recommend a source for good quality ferrulesin the US? I have my planing form on order from Colorado Bootstrap and am gettingback into rod making after a 30 year absence - previous efforts were using the triangular former method, which was pretty slow and not as accurate as I would have liked. I learned the skill from Richard Walker's great book "Rod Building for Amateurs" - he holds the UK freshwater carp record at 64lbs, caught on aMk. IV split cane rod of his own making - a 2 piece ten footer. Contemplating a reentry to the rod building world, I have acquired Garrison/Carmichael, Kreider and Cattanach, as well as Sinclair's tome on restoration. Any others out there anyone recommends? Finally, on the planing front, is the small Lie-Nielsen plane any better than the common-or-garden Record # 9 1/2? It comes at a small premiumin price ($75 vs $50) and looks to have a thicker blade, like the Ron Hock alternative for the Record ($25!). Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 17 14:58:36 1997 15:53:42 -0500 Subject: RE: Rodmakers, New and Old Olaf wrote: "And how might we ' find out why their rods fished so well.' Withoutexamining them? That is cast them, measure them, and then try to replicate them. " My point, exactly. Personal experience with both new and old rods is preferable to survey data. Terrytfinger@services.state.mo.us The point I am trying to make is, is that it is impossible to measure a rodaccurately with guides on and varnish. How much vanish is there .002?,.008?You can build a rough approximation that is all, and you must describe itassuch. Terry Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 17 15:08:15 1997 16:03:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Rodmakers, New and Old Terry,I agree-After casting several of the T&T rods over the years I considerT&T to be one of the best production rodmakers today( although I haven'tcastany since the last ownership change)The heck with trends-if it appeals to me I use it.Hank. Hank,actually the T&T rods did not score too well as a 'favourite' rod and thereason given was the performance! This was a survey completed by long time cane users. The old rods came out the winners and this makes me absolutely positivethose old guys processed their cane differently. Terry from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Mon Mar 17 15:09:19 1997 2.0/2.12um) id MAA000.77; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:55:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Thomas: Re Archives - Use http://Home1.gte.net/jfoster/rma.html Re Ferrules - Check out http://Home1.gte.net/jfoster/supp.html Re Lie-Nielsen plane: IMHO, given the choice between the Stanley 9-1/2and the Lie-Nielsen and cost no object, I'd opt for the latter. But that's primarily because I'm impressed by fine tools whose design and quality ofmanufacture makes them a pleasure to own and use. Nothing wrong with the Stanley (I owntwo); just my personal opinion. Regards, Rich Brown from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Mar 17 16:04:50 1997 RAA21498 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:04:45 from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Mar 17 17:56:31 1997 Subject: Re: Flame drying a Culm Steve,I don't flame the whole culm, I flame each strip separately with astandard tip on the propane burner. I start in the middle and work towardboth ends going just fast enough to wrinkle the enamel and not to setthingson fire. When I'm finished I have a charcoaled exterior but the rest of thestrip is intact-the charcooal is removed after gluing when the string isremoved and the blank is sanded.This is one way-there are others.Hope this helps,HAnk. from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Mar 17 18:22:05 1997 Subject: Hwlp with archive RO>Trying this one again - can anyone direct me how to access the archiveforRO>this list - I'm trying to avoid duplicating past questions? Thank you. RO>Also, could any list member recommend a source for good qualityferrules inRO>the US? RO>I have my planing form on order from Colorado Bootstrap and amgetting backRO>into rod making after a 30 year absence - previous efforts were usingtheRO>triangular former method, which was pretty slow and not as accurateas IRO>would have liked. RO>I learned the skill from Richard Walker's great book "Rod Building forRO>Amateurs" - he holds the UK freshwater carp record at 64lbs, caughton a Mk.RO>IV split cane rod of his own making - a 2 piece ten footer. RO>Contemplating a reentry to the rod building world, I have acquiredRO>Garrison/Carmichael, Kreider and Cattanach, as well as Sinclair's tomeonRO>restoration. Any others out there anyone recommends? RO>Finally, on the planing front, is the small Lie-Nielsen plane any betterRO>than the common-or-garden Record # 9 1/2? It comes at a smallpremium inRO>price ($75 vs $50) and looks to have a thicker blade, like the Ron HockRO>alternative for the Record ($25!). RO>Best regards, RO>ThomasP@nacm.com. Ferrules suppliers are listed in the Sinclair book and also availablethrough: NS ferrules -- Dale Clemens -- (610) 395 5119Angler's Workshop -- (360) 225-9445 Ni-plated brass (cheapies) Above two plus Netcraft -- (800) netcraft or (419) 868-8288 All three have very good catalogs. Don Burns from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Mar 17 20:31:15 1997 21:26:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Trying this one again - can anyone direct me how to access the archive this list - I'm trying to avoid duplicating past questions? Thank you. Also, could any list member recommend a source for good quality ferrulesin the US? I have my planing form on order from Colorado Bootstrap and am gettingback into rod making after a 30 year absence - previous efforts were using the triangular former method, which was pretty slow and not as accurate as I would have liked. I learned the skill from Richard Walker's great book "Rod Building for Amateurs" - he holds the UK freshwater carp record at 64lbs, caught on aMk. IV split cane rod of his own making - a 2 piece ten footer. Contemplating a reentry to the rod building world, I have acquired Garrison/Carmichael, Kreider and Cattanach, as well as Sinclair's tomeon restoration. Any others out there anyone recommends? Finally, on the planing front, is the small Lie-Nielsen plane any better than the common-or-garden Record # 9 1/2? It comes at a smallpremium in price ($75 vs $50) and looks to have a thicker blade, like the Ron Hock alternative for the Record ($25!). Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com. Tom,I have a R. Walker MK IV Avon split cane rod, it is from what I canremember10% lighter than the MK IV Carp but exactly the same design. I have abeautiful old centerpin reel and its great fun float fishing with the rod. The Carp was 44lb when it was captured in 1952. I find the Stanly plane perfectly adequate and have certainly found thestandard blade thick enough, the thicker the blade the more you have togrind off. Stanley have been making planes for years and years and I am sure thatanyinnovations would have been incorporated. Terry Ackland from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 17 23:14:03 1997 Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Yeah, like not waiting for green planes to stress relieve before finalgrinding of the sole. Talk about your innovations! Unfortunately, Stanley plane blades right from the box are not the sameas the blades they made under the name "Stanley Tool and Level Company"in the "Old Days" The old blades I have are nearly as thick as Hockblades, and over a sixteenth thicker than the new blades. The markethas changed for the Stanley product. They still make a good plane, youjust have to look at it as a kit, not a finished product, if you want touse it for precise work. Just my $0.02. Brian from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 17 23:22:06 1997 Subject: plane blades Oops! My finger's are faster than my brain tonight.It was the Stanley RULE and Level Company. Brian (this is my brain on scotch) Creek from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Mar 18 01:15:22 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods Does breaking a fly line one night fishing the Hex count as abuse (Isuppose it was a beaver and not a trout)? I would suspect it's all thoseyears resting on the dash of the truck in the sunlight that adds that extratemper. Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Mar 18 01:15:39 1997 Subject: Re: Flame drying a Culm There are several degrees of flaming - The darkest tone (instant coffeecolor) is achieved by flaming the culm to a burnt marshmellow tone. I'mconvinced that there are two distinct layers of enamel - that dark offlamingcauses the upper layer to 'explode' slightly with little up rises of thisupper layer. from your description you are not using the correct torch. I ampresuming that you are using a single flamed torch that screws on a 14 ozcanister of lp gas. The problem here is that this torch doesn't have enoughavailable energy. Consider searing a good steak - you need a hot surface -not enough available heat and the steak is cooked through before thesurfacebrowns. Look for a torch that has 3 fingers and is self igniting. The lowendtorch costs about $15 where as the 3 finger torch costs about $45.Then above this remember that the second layer of enamel acts as aninsulator - once flamed try black sanding the a small area - until you seethe power fibers - this will show you the tonation of the finished rod. Rubalittle tung oil on to see the look of the rod when the finish would beapplied. Wayne from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Mar 18 05:28:42 1997 LAA06709 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:27:43GMT Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Trying this one again - can anyone direct me how to access the archive this list - I'm trying to avoid duplicating past questions? Thank you. Also, could any list member recommend a source for good qualityferrules in the US? I have my planing form on order from Colorado Bootstrap and am gettingback into rod making after a 30 year absence - previous efforts were usingthe triangular former method, which was pretty slow and not as accurate asI would have liked. I learned the skill from Richard Walker's great book "Rod Building for Amateurs" - he holds the UK freshwater carp record at 64lbs, caught ona Mk. IV split cane rod of his own making - a 2 piece ten footer. Contemplating a reentry to the rod building world, I have acquired Garrison/Carmichael, Kreider and Cattanach, as well as Sinclair's tomeon restoration. Any others out there anyone recommends? Finally, on the planing front, is the small Lie-Nielsen plane any better than the common-or-garden Record # 9 1/2? It comes at a smallpremium in price ($75 vs $50) and looks to have a thicker blade, like the Ron Hock alternative for the Record ($25!). Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com. Tom,I have a R. Walker MK IV Avon split cane rod, it is from what I canremember10% lighter than the MK IV Carp but exactly the same design. I have abeautiful old centerpin reel and its great fun float fishing with the rod. The Carp was 44lb when it was captured in 1952. I find the Stanly plane perfectly adequate and have certainly found thestandard blade thick enough, the thicker the blade the more you have togrind off. Stanley have been making planes for years and years and I am sure thatanyinnovations would have been incorporated. Terry Ackland Fancy you knowing all that about the Mk IV rod, Walker, and his 44 pounder.It's a particularly British business. Where are you in this world Terry? from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Tue Mar 18 08:09:37 1997 skeria.skelleftea.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) 1.21);18 Mar 97 15:17:31 MET DST 15:17:09 MET DST 18 Mar 97 15:17:04 MET DST Subject: Re: Rodmakers, New and Old I like hand-made rods better than machined as T&T's. At such a high cost a rod should be hand made! -------------------------------------------------------------- --Mikael MarklundDragongatan 22931 64 Skellefftea0910- 777795mikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from Mikael.Marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Tue Mar 18 08:10:11 1997 1.21);18 Mar 97 15:18:05 MET DST 15:17:09 MET DST 18 Mar 97 15:17:05 MET DST Subject: Re: Rodmakers, New and Old I like hand made rods better. At such a high cost as T&T's they should be hand made!----------------------------------------------------------------Mikael MarklundDragongatan 22931 64 Skellefftea0910- 777795mikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 18 09:09:44 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods Temper!?-temper is what I delaminated a rod with on the Gardiner someyearsago after getting caught in the trees for the umpteenth time- you'd thinkafter fishing the Blue Ridge streams I'd know better. So much for temper:-) from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Tue Mar 18 10:36:22 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Thank you! - was Archive Help Many thanks to all of you for sending me the archive address - what asuperb resource! Thanks also to Terry Ackland for correcting my statement about Richard Walker's record UK carp - 44lbs, not as I stated 64lbs. I recall reading as a kid how he caught the fish and it started a lifelong fascination with split-cane which I am now revisiting. Best regards, Thomas from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Mar 18 10:46:18 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:51:40 EDT Subject: Re: My bent cane rod I heard a guy speak in Ithaca one time about resetting rods. He said he had built a humidity box that he would hang the rod in. Suspending it from the butt section and attaching a weight to the tip. Adjusting the humidity, he corrected it. Sorry I cannot get any more specific than that. Jon On 17 Mar 97 at 14:49, FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Ken,The rod's age may make it reset after staightening. After using a heatgun (for paint removing) to straighten the rod try taping it to a straightdowel.I f over time the dowel takes a set you know you're in big troubleandsomeone better than will have to advise you -good luck.Hank. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Mar 18 10:46:19 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:51:34 EDT Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Just my opinion as a person beginning with all of this...but blade sharpness and holding strength does not appear to be directly tied to blade thickness. Stanley has been making planes and blades for years, your are correct, but what is their target audience? Certainly not people that have our demands in mind. More like carpenters that do not want a blade to rust in the the bed of a pick up. All I am saying, is from my experience...very little...in fact only the butt section of a 3pc...The Hock holds an edge significantly longer. Just my 2cents Jon Stanley have been making planes for years and years and I am sure thatanyinnovations would have been incorporated. Terry Ackland from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Tue Mar 18 12:33:56 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Plane blades I think the issue of the right blade for the plane is twofold. Thickness should reduce chatter. Lie-Nielsen states its blade in the 20 degree block plane (a slightly narrower blade version of the Stanley 9 1/2) is 1/8" thick - in illustrations it certainly looks thicker than the standard blade in the Stanley and Record planes. A related mention is that the L-N blade is hardened to Rockwell 60-62; I seem to remember reading that Ron Hock's blades are harder still at RC64. This should increase times between sharpening. Maybe some of the MIT/JPL gurus on the list could comment? Interestingly, the previous issue of Fine WoodWorking has an article on spokeshave use and the author - Mario Rodriguez - explains how hereplaced the standard blades in his Stanley spokeshaves with Hock's enhanced ones- less chatter and less sharpening.... As for me, I'm ordering a Lie-Nielsen block plane. At $85, it compares favorably to $45 for a Stanley/Record 9 1/2 plus $25 for a Hock blade (prices from the Garrett Wade catalog) and, goodness, is it beautiful to look at. Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Tue Mar 18 12:36:18 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Some Starrett prices I thought list members might be interested in prices of some essential rod building tools; I'm getting back into the hobby, so expect more of these missives! Depth attachment for slide caliper (PT22431) $29.10 - provides a broader base for body of tool when using depth rod. Center gauge, with 60 degree angles (C391) $11.65 60 degree contact pint for dial indicator (PT06632-6) $3.20 Prices are from a local hardware store in San Diego - 7-10 days delivery. Regards, ThomasP@nacm.com from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Mar 18 14:04:12 1997 with ESMTP id OAA28893 for ; Tue, 18 Mar1997 14:03:39 -0600 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA28988 for dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.3) with SMTP id HHUDANAH; Tue,18 Mar 1997 14:03:19 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: re: Plane blades FYI, Wm. Alden Co. still has their Stanley G12-020s on sale for $28.99plusshiping. Don ------------------Original text 10:29 AM: I think the issue of the right blade for the plane is twofold. Thickness should reduce chatter. Lie-Nielsen states its blade in the 20 degree block plane (a slightly narrower blade version of the Stanley 9 1/2) is 1/8" thick - in illustrations it certainly looks thicker than the standard blade in the Stanley and Record planes. A related mention is that the L-N blade is hardened to Rockwell 60-62; I seem to remember reading that Ron Hock's blades are harder still at RC64. This should increase times between sharpening. Maybe some of the MIT/JPL gurus on the list could comment? Interestingly, the previous issue of Fine WoodWorking has an article on spokeshave use and the author - Mario Rodriguez - explains how hereplaced the standard blades in his Stanley spokeshaves with Hock's enhanced ones- less chatter and less sharpening.... As for me, I'm ordering a Lie-Nielsen block plane. At $85, it compares favorably to $45 for a Stanley/Record 9 1/2 plus $25 for a Hock blade (prices from the Garrett Wade catalog) and, goodness, is it beautiful to look at. Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Mar 18 14:06:38 1997 with ESMTP id OAA29323 for ; Tue, 18 Mar1997 14:06:05 -0600 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA29460 for dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.3) with SMTP id IJUFADCA; Tue,18 Mar 1997 14:05:55 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: Center gage and 60 degree point All: I still haven't located a source for Starret center gage or a quality 60- degreepoint (Starret) for my dial indicator. I Have Enco, Jap. Woodworker, Alden,Woodcraft catalogs; any suggestions on where else to look? Thanks,Don from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Tue Mar 18 14:16:44 1997 with BSMTP id 9352; Tue, 18 Mar 97 15:15:22 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9411; Tue, 18 Mar1997 15:15:22 -0500Subject: Re: Center gage and 60 degree point Don, have you tried calling Starret directly? (Theymay say they only deal with wholesalers but theywill and do make exceptions). By the way, the ENCO brandcenter gauge is fine and I believe the one I got fromthem is actually US made. Hope that helps, B. from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Tue Mar 18 14:18:10 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: Center gage and 60 degree point Don, I bought the center guage in the ENCO catalog. It looks like a copy of theone made by Starrett and seems to be OK. To get the 60-degree points,I called Starrett @ (800) 254-8690. They gave me the name of adistributorin my area and I was able to order the points through the distributor. Isuppose I could have gotten the center gauge through the distributor also.Seems like a lot of work for these small items. but I don't know of anyother way. Hope this helps,Bob Matarazzo from BamboRods@aol.com Tue Mar 18 14:59:35 1997 Subject: Tools I was just informed by Don Avery of CT that his friend, mentor, and oldtimerod maker Albert Junkus had passed away this winter. Al had been makingrods Al's widow asked Don to help her sell his single screw planing forms andbinder. If anyone is interested Don will give you details. Don's can bereached at: Don Avery's Rods, 467 RT 32, Franklin, CT 06254. or Phone(360) 642-7360. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 15:06:47 1997 16:01:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Trying this one again - can anyone direct me how to access the archive this list - I'm trying to avoid duplicating past questions? Thank you. Also, could any list member recommend a source for good qualityferrules in the US? I have my planing form on order from Colorado Bootstrap and am gettingback into rod making after a 30 year absence - previous efforts were usingthe triangular former method, which was pretty slow and not as accurateas I would have liked. I learned the skill from Richard Walker's great book "Rod Building for Amateurs" - he holds the UK freshwater carp record at 64lbs, caught ona Mk. IV split cane rod of his own making - a 2 piece ten footer. Contemplating a reentry to the rod building world, I have acquired Garrison/Carmichael, Kreider and Cattanach, as well as Sinclair's tomeon restoration. Any others out there anyone recommends? Finally, on the planing front, is the small Lie-Nielsen plane any better than the common-or-garden Record # 9 1/2? It comes at a smallpremium in price ($75 vs $50) and looks to have a thicker blade, like the Ron Hock alternative for the Record ($25!). Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com. Tom,I have a R. Walker MK IV Avon split cane rod, it is from what I canremember10% lighter than the MK IV Carp but exactly the same design. I have abeautiful old centerpin reel and its great fun float fishing with the rod. The Carp was 44lb when it was captured in 1952. I find the Stanly plane perfectly adequate and have certainly found thestandard blade thick enough, the thicker the blade the more you have togrind off. Stanley have been making planes for years and years and I am sure thatanyinnovations would have been incorporated. Terry Ackland Fancy you knowing all that about the Mk IV rod, Walker, and his 44pounder.It's a particularly British business. Where are you in this world Terry? I own up to being British and we are living for the moment in friendlyQuebec. There was not much flyfishing available when I was a kid in South London. Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 15:29:50 1997 16:24:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Hwlp with archive Just my opinion as a person beginning with all of this...but blade sharpness and holding strength does not appear to be directly tied to blade thickness. Stanley has been making planes and blades for years, your are correct, but what is their target audience? Certainly not people that have our demands in mind. More like carpenters that do not want a blade to rust in the the bed of a pick up. All I am saying, is from my experience...very little...in fact only the butt section of a 3pc...The Hock holds an edge significantly longer. Just my 2cents Jon Hock blades are are made from plain carbon steel as are Stanly blades,theonly difference could be the hardness, but I would have to check that withahardness tester. A tool too hard is a tool too brittle and I like to get a good bit of speedwhen planing for it reduces dig ins and a brittle blade will chip if you hit. I can understand guys getting sucked into to buying what they do not needthat is up to you. If the Gurus of the list say you need it ok. My friend AJ Thramer said no one listens on the list anyway. Terry Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 15:35:45 1997 16:29:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Plane blades I think the issue of the right blade for the plane is twofold. Thickness should reduce chatter. Lie-Nielsen states its blade in the 20 degree block plane (a slightly narrower blade version of the Stanley 91/2) is 1/8" thick - in illustrations it certainly looks thicker than the standard blade in the Stanley and Record planes. A related mention is that the L-N blade is hardened to Rockwell 60-62; I seem to remember reading that Ron Hock's blades are harder still atRC64. This should increase times between sharpening. Maybe some of the MIT/JPL gurus on the list could comment? Interestingly, the previous issue of Fine WoodWorking has an article on spokeshave use and the author - Mario Rodriguez - explains how hereplaced the standard blades in his Stanley spokeshaves with Hock's enhanced ones- less chatter and less sharpening.... As for me, I'm ordering a Lie-Nielsen block plane. At $85, it compares favorably to $45 for a Stanley/Record 9 1/2 plus $25 for a Hock blade (prices from the Garrett Wade catalog) and, goodness, is it beautiful to look at. Best regards, ThomasP@nacm.com Chatter is a carpentry problem associated with planing end grain forwhichthe Stanly block plane was designed. If you are getting chatter planing little strips of bamboo you must behaving problems with sharpening. Terry Ackland from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Mar 18 16:45:38 1997 Subject: Re: Use of cane rods RO> Does breaking a fly line one night fishing the Hex count as abuse (IRO>suppose it was a beaver and not a trout)? I would suspect it's all thoseRO>years resting on the dash of the truck in the sunlight that adds thatextraRO>temper. RO>Wayne Should be on your rod and in your hand - not on the dash. Trygetting an "easy-rider" rifle rack mounted in your pickup's rear windowand then convert it into a rod tube rack. Don Burns FYI - I spoke to Phil Snyder (cane rod list fame) recently - he's havinga couple of operations on blocked arteries in his neck. First one shouldbe done by now. from ghilbers@earthlink.net Tue Mar 18 17:19:49 1997 Subject: Re: Some Starrett prices Thomas Pindelski wrote: I thought list members might be interested in prices of some essentialrodbuilding tools; I'm getting back into the hobby, so expect more of thesemissives! Depth attachment for slide caliper (PT22431) $29.10 - provides abroaderbase for body of tool when using depth rod. Center gauge, with 60 degree angles (C391) $11.65 60 degree contact pint for dial indicator (PT06632-6) $3.20 Prices are from a local hardware store in San Diego - 7-10 daysdelivery. Regards, ThomasP@nacm.comJust out of curiosity, whar local hardware store in San Diego? Garyghilbers@earthlink.net from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Mar 18 17:32:42 1997 SAA06435 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:37:19-0500 Subject: Re: Center gage and 60 degree point Don Starrett will ship you points and minor parts - use the numberon the rodmakers homepage.Also two other sources MSC has Starrett and I just passedJerry their new URL: http://www.mscdirect.com/ or 1-800-645- 7270.Also ask for their BIG book - everything you needed in machine toolsand then some!and Holloway tools 1-800-346-7801 from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 18 18:52:08 1997 ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Fly Fishing List Serve Subject: HARRISBURG FLY FISHERS -- APRIL 5, 1997 On Saturday April 5, there will be a very significant fly fishing eventas the HFF's will hold their 50th anniversery event at the Embers inCarlisle, PA. This 'organization' was established -- as a forum to present Fly Fishingtopics at WEEKLY luncheons in downtown Harrisburg -- by the likes ofVince Marinaro, Charlie Fox, Buzz Grove, Ernie Schwiebert, GeorgeHarvey, etc, etc, etc. At many of these luncheons, papers werepresented and these have been bound together into book form -- somelimiteded editions being available along with other conventional copies. The Day begins with a breakfest buffet from 8:00-10:00am, followed byLeon Chandlers presentation of Fly Fishing Around the World. Workshops,deomenstrations, fly-tying, authors signings, displays will be available from 11:00 to 5:00pm -- all free to the public. Too much to reallynelaborat on here. This will be followed by the tradional 'Stag' dinner from 5:00 until??? which features J. Michael Hayden as a guest speaker. HFF's is a unique organization with no meetings (other than the annualdinner), no dues, no officers, no organization. But the Annual event isspectacular -- even without the 50th celebration. This will be a super event. If you have interest in more information,please contact Norm Shires (717)243-1624, or Rich Shires (717)258-6338. The State Council of TU will also be having their quarterly meeting aswell. FRED~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FRED BOHLS, CFPBohls Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17011-9698Office: (717) 732- 2448Fax: (717) 732-2414e-mail: fcfp@ix.netcom.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 19:34:34 1997 20:29:13 -0500 Subject: Fancy Blades Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about their expensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr, 1/2%v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland from mcreek@sirus.com Tue Mar 18 19:47:23 1997 Subject: Re: Center gage and 60 degree point I surfed "machine tools" and now have 3 catalogs thicker than thedetroit phonebook. All have 800 numbers and such.Now I just need enough cash to buy all the new toys, er, I mean tools,that I 'need!'Brian from mcreek@sirus.com Tue Mar 18 19:55:27 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Baaa from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 18 20:13:23 1997 Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:13:16 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland Terry,Not being a metalurgist I'm not about to go into metal composition or tempering etc but I bought my Stanly 60 1/2 15 years ago while a boat building apprentice. The iron that came with the plane is exactly the same as the replacement irons you can buy now.I can't comment on irons bought prior to that.I wore out my second iron about 6 months back and replaced it with a Hock as these are used in circles other than cane rod building.I thought I'd pay my money and take my chances not expecting much of a difference but I was wrong. Why anybody would bother with a regular iron when you can buy a Hock or laminated Jap iron is hard to understand.They are a little harder to sharpen, but you don't need to as often and that in itself should be worth while, especially if time matters. Add to that the edge is easy to keep keen.Also, the fact you don't need to go to the sharpening bench as often means the iron will last longer so it prob dosn't even cost more if you plan on using a plane often. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 18 20:15:44 1997 Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:15:31 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 21:03:35 1997 21:58:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland Terry,Not being a metalurgist I'm not about to go into metal composition or tempering etc but I bought my Stanly 60 1/2 15 years ago while a boat building apprentice. The iron that came with the plane is exactly the same as the replacement irons you can buy now.I can't comment on irons bought prior to that.I wore out my second iron about 6 months back and replaced it with aHock as these are used in circles other than cane rod building.I thought I'd pay my money and take my chances not expecting much of a difference but I was wrong. Why anybody would bother with a regular iron when you can buy a Hock or laminated Jap iron is hard to understand.They are a little harder to sharpen, but you don't need to as often and that in itself should be worth while, especially if time matters. Add to that the edge is easy to keep keen.Also, the fact you don't need to go to the sharpening bench as often means the iron will last longer so it prob dosn't even cost more if you plan on using a plane often. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ Tony,Japanese blades are laminated, that is, it is a sandwhich of hard and softsteels so you have to purchase an expensive water stone because an oilstoneclogs up on the soft stuff. I have the same blades in my Stanley's as when I first started 13 yearsagoand I make a few rods. I do not go to all the trouble that I once saw in ademonstration of rod building a couple of years ago. It takes just a fewrubs with a medium oil stone when the blade gets a little dull. The secret is, is to split accurately and than there is not that much toremove with a plane! Guys it is not that difficult to make rods, what is going on? Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Mar 18 21:11:43 1997 22:06:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ Tony,You guys in Aussie should benifit from sheep cloning, you can all get agoodlooking one! Terry from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Mar 18 21:48:22 1997 Subject: Please Read I was talking with Luis Marden this evening - He has had a lingeringcold and his allergies are bothering him and he has to go into the hospital thought that it might be nice of the group to send him a note or ratherseveral note to help cheer him up. Luis has always had a love for bambooflyrods and a friendship for those that make them. And I'm sure that he wouldbeencouraged hearing from us. Now several of you have met and know Luisfromthe many gatherings that he has attended. Shortly many more will be abletoread his words - his book "The Angler's Bamboo" will be on the street isjusta few weeks.What I had in mind was to collect the notes here and then send them asa'get well' to him so that he could read them during his down time. from you as well - perhaps describing your stage of rod making and whatyouhope the future will hold. I would appreciate the help Wayne from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 18 23:13:32 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-18 21:17:08 EST, you write: Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony - Yes. Happened to me a couple of times 2-3 wks ago.RTyree from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 18 23:42:28 1997 Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:42:19 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades I've been using Jap chisels and irons for some time now and have always used a waterstone, so you're likely correct in that reg carborundum or Arkansas stones make hard work of sharpening these and Hock irons.Still, I like them and cheap waterstones that work can be had.The accurate splitting comment is also true. Tony Tony,Japanese blades are laminated, that is, it is a sandwhich of hard and softsteels so you have to purchase an expensive water stone because an oilstoneclogs up on the soft stuff. I have the same blades in my Stanley's as when I first started 13 yearsagoand I make a few rods. I do not go to all the trouble that I once saw in ademonstration of rod building a couple of years ago. It takes just a fewrubs with a medium oil stone when the blade gets a little dull. The secret is, is to split accurately and than there is not that much toremove with a plane! Guys it is not that difficult to make rods, what is going on? Terry /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 18 23:44:49 1997 Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:44:41 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ Tony,You guys in Aussie should benifit from sheep cloning, you can all get agoodlooking one! Terry :-))))Too bad there aren't any Kiwis on this list (are there?). /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 18 23:46:06 1997 Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:45:58 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-03-18 21:17:08 EST, you write: Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony - Yes. Happened to me a couple of times 2-3 wks ago.RTyree Seems to be happening on a regular basis lately. Baaaa, I mean Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from DANNUGENT@aol.com Wed Mar 19 07:13:46 1997 Subject: Re: Center gage and 60 degree point MSCthey have a 800 number call 1-800-555-1212 and ask for it.They have stores all over the US.DAN from neuneman@fh-ge.de Wed Mar 19 07:25:21 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16505; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:27:55 +0100 Subject: Re: Please Read Hi Wayne, That's a nice idea! I know Luis Marden and he really is a very nicegentleman. Hope he will be ok again soon. When talking about sending him greetings and get well wishes, what doyou think is the best way? I assume it is by snail mail. What do youthink? Do can you please send me his address, I guess I lost it. Regards, Frank from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wed Mar 19 07:33:00 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades RO>Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?RO>It's happened to me a few times in the last week. RO>Tony RO>/***********************************************************************/RO>Tony YoungRO>http://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlRO>The Australian connectionRO>/***********************************************************************/ Tony, I think I was - but I also had some problems with AOL (what elseis new?). Don PS - Your web page is real nice. from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Wed Mar 19 07:35:02 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA21325 for; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:35:00 -0500 Subject: Hock or Guiness Hello all, My $.02 on blades. In the last year I have spent money on forms, stuff for a binder, stuff for an oven, etc. etc. etc.... I also bought a plane, A Record 9 1/2. I have planed down two rods worth. I sharpened the blade every two strips. Big deal. I'm going to take the money I would have spent on a hock blade and spend it on a case of Guiness instead. My suggestion to newer builders is not to get caught up in the tools and stuff. Get the basics, if after a couple of rods you feel you need it, then get it. The first couple of rods are most likely to be imperfect because of technique, not proper tooling. I know that was my case. So what if you have to sharpen often, what's the big rush. Just think of how much better of a sharpener you'll be : ). Just my opinion. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from BamboRods@aol.com Wed Mar 19 07:47:49 1997 Subject: Re: Tools I posted the wrong area code in Don Avery's phone number: it is 860-642- 7360sorry,Jon Parker from Jerry.Snider@UC.Edu Wed Mar 19 08:16:39 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Woah! Back up just a moment old friend. Why is the Stanley blade so"shiney" when compared to Hock? More chrome? Please note your own keyphrase here, i.e. "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses."Please give us the percent composition of Stanley blades if you wish toprove your point. Only then will the BAAA be well taken!At 08:29 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote:Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr, 1/2%v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 19 08:34:56 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA22595 +0000 Subject: Re: Please Read WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: SNIP What I had in mind was to collect the notes here and then send themas a'get well' to him so that he could read them during his down time. from you as well - perhaps describing your stage of rod making and whatyouhope the future will hold. I would appreciate the help Wayne Mr. Marden, c/o Wayne Cattanach, You don't know me, but, to paraphrase Harvey Pennick, anyone who makesrods is a friend of mine. All the best, keep the faith. People like youare who inspire people like me. I'm just starting this wonderfulpursuit, but hope to contribute my two cents, especially from anengineering point of view. I look forward to your book, and to hearing of your speedy recovery. Best wishes,Ed Estlow from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Mar 19 08:39:36 1997 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Right on TomRalph At 08:36 AM 3/19/97 +0000, you wrote:Hello all, My $.02 on blades. In the last year I have spent money on forms, stuff for a binder, stuff for an oven, etc. etc. etc.... I also bought a plane, A Record 9 1/2. I have planed down two rods worth. I sharpened the blade every two strips. Big deal. I'm going to take the money I would have spent on a hock blade and spend it on a case of Guiness instead. My suggestion to newer builders is not to get caught up in the tools and stuff. Get the basics, if after a couple of rods you feel you need it, then get it. The first couple of rods are most likely to be imperfect because of technique, not proper tooling. I know that was my case. So what if you have to sharpen often, what's the big rush. Just think of how much better of a sharpener you'll be : ). Just my opinion. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Wed Mar 19 08:49:28 1997 Subject: stripper guides I wanted to order a batch of Milrdum stripper guides, and was hoping togetsome comments on what sizes are most commonly used for shorter rods,say 6'through 7'. Milrdum seems to number their guides, and I can't findinformationabout the measurements those numbers represent. Any help would beappreciated. -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Mar 19 09:15:54 1997 CST Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony - Yes. Happened to me a couple of times 2-3 wks ago. Sorry for the inconvenience guys, but this is a feature(?) ofthe listproc that is meant to cut down on the amount of bouncedmail. If the listproc cannot deliver mail to your account itwill automatically bump you off the list. Things like yourinternet provider being down, your mailbox being full, etc. willget you bumped by the listproc. If you suspect that you have been bumped, the easiest thing todo is to un- sub from the list and then re-sub. That will usuallytake care of the above, in addition to clearing up any lessserious problems. listproc@mail.wustl.edu In the body of message: unsubscribe rodmakerssubscribe rodmakers YourFirstname YourLastname That should take care of any problems the listproc may have withyour subscription. You should receive notification from thelistproc in about a day. If you do not receive notification theproblem is likely not with the listproc. There is occasional delaysin mail delivery to certain parts of the country due to a relay sitebetween here and your site being down. Unfortunately nothing but timewill cure that problem. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wed Mar 19 09:24:23 1997 Subject: RE:stripper guides RO>I wanted to order a batch of Milrdum stripper guides, and was hoping togetRO>some comments on what sizes are most commonly used for shorterrods, say 6'RO>through 7'. Milrdum seems to number their guides, and I can't findinformatRO>about the measurements those numbers represent. Any help would beappreciat RO>-- Mark M. Freed,RO>Department of English Language and LiteratureRO>Central Michigan UniversityRO>freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Mark, The smallest guides (today) are #8's. The # equals the number of mm's ofthe ring. So any #8 guide = 8mm. In the "good-old-days" cane rods camewith much smaller strippers and with lower ring mounts too. So thecorrect answer is - it depends on what you're doing. New look or oldlook. I, myself, would go with about a 10 mm stripper on a modern short 3 - 5wt. fly rod, but if I was restoring an old rod - then I'd use a 8mm-unless I could find a more correct and even smaller guide. Some mighteven go larger than 10 mm (12 mm) if it's a modern short /heavy wt. linerod, IMHO. Get yourself an Angler's Workshop catalog - they've got some old-timeMildum guides that they bought some time back. I think they still have afew remaining Agateen (red glass) stripper guides too. A.W. --> (360) 225-9445. IMHO. Don Burns from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Wed Mar 19 09:37:26 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Titebond II I've been working my way throught the archives and was interested in the thread on the use of Franklin's Titebond II adhesive for gluing split cane. I have used this glue with success in general woodworking for a while, and like the 15-20 minute working time. Do any list subscribers have any more recent feedback on Titebond II andits applicability to rods? It seems a lot easier to use than the two part formulas. Thank you. ThomasP@nacm.com from sleach@plessey.co.za Wed Mar 19 09:47:12 1997 16:59:40 +0200 via smap (V3.1) 19 Mar 97 17:49:38 GMT+0200 GMT+0200 Subject: Super Swiss Ferrule Does any one know where I can get dimentions (length, wallthickness, diameter etc) of the so called Super Swiss paternferrule ? We have been "re-inventing the weel" down here but I am not happywith the results. I have found a lot of reference to the design, anda very good explaination on the process uses to turn a ferrule onTony Young's web site, but no dimentions I can work to. Steve Leach Regards Steve LeachPlessey South Africa LtdP.O.Box 30451Tokai 7966South AfricaTel (021) 710 2460fax (021) 710 2692 from maiello@yorku.ca Wed Mar 19 09:56:19 1997 (mpKtVgDIylUNKWwxPJnvm2pgp1xn51mh@sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.4/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA26392 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: Fancy Blades I thought the hardness came from the heat treatment of the metal,combinedwith the composition.Similar to a hobby of mine....cane building...where there is quite a bitof "controversy" as to what is the "best" heat treatment, I suspectwhoever is selling something will claim their is the best. A section out of the hock home page: .....*A steel's carbon content determines its ability to harden with heattreatment.* That hardness determines a tool's ability to holda sharp cutting edge under abrasive pressure (wear). Generally, the harderthe metal the better its edge holding, but it will bemore brittle. Tempering reduces that brittleness, although it also reducesthe tool's hardness and wear resistance. So abalance must be struck to decide how hard a blade should be. Our bladesare hardened to Rc62 for long edge life. This isharder than most available replacement blades yet not as hard or brittleas most Japanese blades...... On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, ACKLAND TERENCE wrote: Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland from patrick.w.coffey@boeing.com Wed Mar 19 10:30:35 1997 SVR4) (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA205728738; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:25:38 -0800 Subject: plane blades There is more to a blades ability to hold an edge than the recipe usedto make the steel and the hardness of it after tempering. Hock bladesare drop forged blades and the forging orientates the molecules and greatley improves the steels ability to hold an edge. Stanley blades arecut out of a sheet of steel with no forging in their start to finishprocess. Its like the difference between a safeway kitchen knife and agood drop forged knife from a chefs quaility knife maker, the betterquality one will hold an edge almost twice as long. I worked as a violin maker and if we couldn't find a old plane blade from a stanley plane made from the era when people made their living with them as apposed to now when people who buy them just wantsomething easy to sharpen (easy to sharpen easy to go dull)and occaisionly make shaving with, we would get our blades from eskeltunasweeden(great edge holding ability) or from hock. The problem with mostwoodworking tools made today,chisels,saws and planes, they are not madeto stay sharp and last a long time. Old time wood workers would go crazywith the quality of cutting equipment that we have today. My old planesthat are about from the turn of the century take a finer edge and staysharper a significant longer period of time than whats available today.I scrounge garrage sales and swap meets and flea markets for old planeswith good blades or just old plane blades. Run a file accross one edgeof them and you can see the finer grain of these old blades Patrick from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Wed Mar 19 10:31:06 1997 JAA03618 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:30:56-0700 Subject: Gratitude Hello Luis. I have never meet you, but Wayne informs me that you are about to publish a book about bamboo flyrods. I have an enormous amout of respect and gratitude for those who have nobely kept a craft alive by publishing books. If it were not for folks like Wayne, Carmicheal, Conner, and yourself, it would not have been possible for me to learn the craft, or even to be inspired by the thought that someday I will hand craft my own bamboo flyrod. I am still a long way from crafting my first rod, but now the dreams of accomplishing the feat are crisp and clear, with few grey areas. The challenge now is to create the best flyrod out of the materials at hand. To decide which procedures to follow, ie, which glue to use, and which heat-treating regimen to perform. I wish you good health, and inspiration. I look forward to reading your book. -Paul(Kalispell, MT) from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Mar 19 11:01:52 1997 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA080130909; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:01:49 -0800 Subject: Luis Marden Hi Mr. Marden, Unfortunately we have not met. Perhaps someday that situation willchange at one of the rodmaker's gatherings. I wish you a quick and complete recovery from your current illness. Thank you for the many contributionsto bamboo rod craft which are evident to me through the many references to your name that I see on this list. I am in the early stages, currently only refinishing rods or putting them together from the blank stage. History and nostalgia are the two most important reasons I'm interestedin bamboo, that would also explain my preference to hunt with the longbow. With books available like the one you are about to release, those of us in the early stages can expand our knowledge and share it with others, and hopefully continue the process of promoting bamboo rodcraft. Again, take care of yourself and I hope these words from your friends, both familiar and unknown, strengthen you in your time of recovery. Chris McDowellEugene, Oregon from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Mar 19 11:58:01 1997 Subject: Re: Re:Super Swiss Ferrule At 17:49 19/03/97 GMT+2, Steve wrote:Does any one know where I can get dimentions (length, wallthickness, diameter etc) of the so called Super Swiss paternferrule ? Got a series of drawing on super z's in the basement - want me to mailcopies of them? regards, Don We have been "re-inventing the weel" down here but I am not happywith the results. I have found a lot of reference to the design, anda very good explaination on the process uses to turn a ferrule onTony Young's web site, but no dimentions I can work to. Steve Leach Regards Steve LeachPlessey South Africa LtdP.O.Box 30451Tokai 7966South AfricaTel (021) 710 2460fax (021) 710 2692 from BYeom58963@aol.com Wed Mar 19 12:05:11 1997 Subject: Re: HARRISBURG FLY FISHERS In a message dated 97-03-18 20:50:03 EST, you write: I understand that one of the founders- Charlie Fox, passed away inFebruary from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Mar 19 12:21:15 1997 Subject: Re: Titebond II I just recently glued up a 4' with Titebond II Extend. Seems to work fine.Many have complained of breakdown during straightening. I have glued upabout a half dozen rods with TBII with now trouble expect on one 7' onepiece spiral. It tacked up too quickly for me. The extend is supposed todouble the working time, but on a 4' rod it takes only seconds so I don'tknow if the extend will help me on spiral rods. I use TBII and like it. Ralph Moon At 07:33 AM 3/19/97 PST, you wrote: I've been working my way throught the archives and was interested in the thread on the use of Franklin's Titebond II adhesive for gluing split cane. I have used this glue with success in general woodworking for a while,and like the 15-20 minute working time. Do any list subscribers have any more recent feedback on Titebond II andits applicability to rods? It seems a lot easier to use than the two part formulas. Thank you. ThomasP@nacm.com from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Mar 19 12:31:29 1997 Subject: Re: Please Read Dear Luis We have not met but I certainly have heard of you. Getting sick (or old) ishell. I wish you the best. I have been building rods for more thantwenty- five years and one of these days I may graduate to the beginner'sclass. I'm looking forward to your book. Best wishes and good health Ralph W. Moon> from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Wed Mar 19 13:05:10 1997 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,19 Mar 1997 13:03:37 CST Subject: Titebond II Ralph Moon, where might I get Titebond II extend in less than 1 gallon lots? Thanks! -Grayson from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Wed Mar 19 14:07:15 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Guides Thanks to Ralph Moon for the notes on Titebond II Extend. Another Q: what are the pros and cons of snake guides vs. regular guides? Is this an issue of cosmetic purity, performance, or both? TIA ThomasP@nacm.com from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wed Mar 19 14:17:07 1997 Subject: Please Read We haven't met, but a good friend of yours and a fellow cane rod builderhas brought it to my attention that you're having a bit of illness.Luis, I hope the get well soon. Maybe a day out in LA's heat andgetting in some early season fishing would help out. I know a nicelittle Southern California trout stream, filled with some small wildrainbows, that could be a cure for 'most anything. Wayne's also brought attention to the fact that you have a new book,"The Angler's Bamboo", being published soon and I'm looking forward toreading it. I wish you much success with it. Sincerely, Don Burns from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Wed Mar 19 14:18:21 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: Titebond II Ralph Moon, where might I get Titebond II extend in less than 1 gallon lots? Thanks! -Grayson I think I bought some at Sears once. Also, catalogs which cater tomusical instrument building sell it. -Bob Matarazzo from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 19 14:29:13 1997 mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA10922 +0000 Subject: Re: Guides Thomas Pindelski wrote: Thanks to Ralph Moon for the notes on Titebond II Extend. Another Q: what are the pros and cons of snake guides vs. regular guides?Is this an issue of cosmetic purity, performance, or both? TIA ThomasP@nacm.com Meaning no offense, it is my experience that snake guides are standardequipment (i.e., they ARE regular guides) on most all fly rods, plasticor bamboo. The exception might be very large, and salt water rods. I believe that they allow a more natural flexure of the rod - interfereless with the rod's natural bending under load - than a two foot"regular" guide such as would be found on a casting or spinning rod.They would open and close during back- and forward casts, respectively,where a guide bound to the rod in two distinct places would stiffen therod at that point and change the action. Best regards, Ed Estlow from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 15:23:30 1997 16:17:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Hello all, My $.02 on blades. In the last year I have spent money on forms, stuff for a binder, stuff for an oven, etc. etc. etc.... I also bought a plane, A Record 9 1/2. I have planed down two rods worth. I sharpened the blade every two strips. Big deal. I'm going to take the money I would have spent on a hock blade and spend it on a case of Guiness instead. My suggestion to newer builders is not to get caught up in the tools and stuff. Get the basics, if after a couple of rods you feel you need it, then get it. The first couple of rods are most likely to be imperfect because of technique, not proper tooling. I know that was my case. So what if you have to sharpen often, what's the big rush. Just think of how much better of a sharpener you'll be : ). Just my opinion. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering Tom,You will find that your rodmaking improves after a few beers, and after afew more you do not need finger cots or gloves! It is good to see a builder not caught up in the equipment rush. Terry from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Wed Mar 19 15:48:08 1997 with BSMTP id 7722; Wed, 19 Mar 97 16:46:57 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6159; Wed, 19 Mar1997 16:46:57 -0500Subject: Re: Gratitude Louis, Best wishes to you. I just this week gotan ad for your book for The Anglers Art. Canhardly wait to get my hands on a copy. Rivers arestill frozen over here in Maine, so it will be awhile until I can actually wet a line, so the nextbest thing is either to read about cane and the flyfishing arts or to be working on my new binder machineand the thousand other details that comprise thiswonderful sport. Take care, Bob Milardo, Newburgh, Maine. from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 16:02:32 1997 16:56:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Woah! Back up just a moment old friend. Why is the Stanley blade so"shiney" when compared to Hock? More chrome? Please note your own keyphrase here, i.e. "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses."Please give us the percent composition of Stanley blades if you wish toprove your point. Only then will the BAAA be well taken!At 08:29 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote:Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland Jerry,What has shiney got to do with chrome? Stanley grind their blades on the front and back after heat treatment toremove the warping that happens with the heat treatment process. Hock donotgrind, the colour you see is how it comes from their furnace. Hardness is what counts in a plane blade not chrome. Stanley blades are 62Rockwell the same as hock. Rockwell is a scale of hardness that isverifiedon a a special machine. There is 1/2% chrome in a hock blade according to their web page. Jerry, you are are only parroting something you have picked up possiblyfromthis site or the hock home page without any understanding of steel. I amnottrying to be smart, just helpful. Terry Ackland from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Mar 19 16:09:20 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-19 10:20:12 EST, you write: Has anybody been getting bumped off this list lately?It's happened to me a few times in the last week. Tony - Yes. Happened to me a couple of times 2-3 wks ago. Sorry for the inconvenience guys, but this is a feature(?) ofthe listproc that is meant to cut down on the amount of bouncedmail. Mike - twas no complaint and the procedure you mentioned took care of itok.BTW, any progress report on the project?Regards,RTyree from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 16:25:53 1997 17:20:12 -0500 Subject: Sgt. Bilko When I was a lad in Britain, I loved Sgt. Bilko, he was my hero, he was sosmart, I imagined all yanks to be just like him. The truth has been more devestating to me than when I discovered threwas noSanta. Just testing That I am still on. Terry from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 19 16:47:20 1997 0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Fancy Blades] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32C73756187A My server was actin' up last nite and I couldn't post this. --------------32C73756187A Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Terry,It's just boys and their toys. In the grand scheme of things none of this matters, so how we choose toindulge ourselves matters equally little. Except to each individual. Ilike having neat tools around (especially neat, old tools) that are justperfect for the job at hand. I don't need thirty some planes, but Ilike 'em, and want more (there's this nice little Norris reproductionI've got my eye on. . . ). Stanley blades work, but I just like Hockblades better. Why are we building fishin' poles out of giant Chinese grass when wehave Gary Loomis? John Gierach quoted someone as saying something like,"If catching fish was all that mattered, not only would we all befishing graphite, we'd be using worms."'Quality of life' is user defined. Tight lines,Brian --------------32C73756187A-- from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 19 16:50:00 1997 0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades How do Kiwis find sheep in the dark?? from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 19 17:01:35 1997 0500 Subject: Re: Sgt. Bilko Whatta ya mean, "No Santa.???" from mcreek@sirus.com Wed Mar 19 17:20:36 1997 0500 Subject: Re: Please Read Luis,Wayne tells me you worked for the Geographic, and did a story on findingHMS Bounty. I have always loved both trout fishing and NationalGeographic Magazine (it was those naked pygmy pictures when I was in theseventh grade), and always wanted to be like Dewitt Jones or JimBrandenbereg and travel the world photographing the natural wonders ofour planet. But I got into another line of work. I also have always wanted to build split cane flyrods. I startedgetting serious about woodworking several years ago to hone my skillswith hand tools with the thought of working my way up to, what Iconsider one of the pinnacles of craftsmanship, building split-caneflyrods. I didn't think there were more than a few dozen peopleinterested in this esoteric pursuit until I stumbled upon this Rodmakershome on the internet. I'm pleased that there are several folks outthere as crazy as (or crazier than) me. If you're a cane buff, you knowwhat I'm speaking of.I hope to have my first rod done by the gathering in Grayling thisJune. I'm planning on planing a 2 piece, 7' - 8' 5 wt., darkly flamed,(I'm a pyro. Sue me.), with an agateen stripper, bronze snake guides,and blackened, satin nickle silver reelseat with a cherry burl insert. I'm leaning toward red and dark green wraps, and will be finishing withSutherland Wells medium lustre tung oil. After all the research thatthis information super highway allowed me to do, I'm going to useresorcinol adhesive and live with the glue lines. (I'm also a F.L.Wright fan, FFF!) I hope you'll make Grayling for the Hex hatch, and I look forward tomaking your acquaintance. Brian CreekHolland, Michigan from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 17:35:51 1997 18:30:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Woah! Back up just a moment old friend. Why is the Stanley blade so"shiney" when compared to Hock? More chrome? Please note your own keyphrase here, i.e. "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses."Please give us the percent composition of Stanley blades if you wish toprove your point. Only then will the BAAA be well taken!At 08:29 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote:Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland Jerry,What has shiney got to do with chrome? Stanley grind their blades on the front and back after heat treatment toremove the warping that happens with the heat treatment process. Hock donotgrind, the colour you see is how it comes from their furnace. Hardness is what counts in a plane blade not chrome. Stanley blades are 62Rockwell the same as hock. Rockwell is a scale of hardness that isverifiedon a a special machine. There is 1/2% chrome in a hock blade according to their web page. I am not trying to be smart, just helpful. Terry Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 17:43:53 1997 18:38:06 -0500 Subject: Sgt. Bilko When I was a lad in Britain, I loved Sgt. Bilko, he was my hero, he was sosmart, I imagined all yanks to be just like him. The truth has been more devastating to me than when I had discoveredtherewas no Santa. Just testing That I am still on, things seem to be screwing up. I haveunsubscribed and re-subscribed and sent all my replies again. Terry from MasjC1@aol.com Wed Mar 19 18:07:08 1997 Subject: Re: Please Read Luis, I hope you are feeling better when you receive this note. Yesterday Ireceived a card from The Angler's Art announcing the availibility of yournewbook. Today I called and ordered it. Should be ready to ship next week. I'mlooking forward to reading it with great anticipation. I have not yet built abamboo fly rod. Last spring my cousin sent me a old Montgue that is notworthmuch, but it did get me interested in bamboo rods and their construction.I'msetting on the side lines, working up my courage to take the plunge intoconstruction. One of these days I will order the bamboo. Get well soon. Mark R. ColeLeadville, ColoradoHouston, Texas from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Mar 19 18:07:27 1997 Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:07:17 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, brian & michelle creek wrote: How do Kiwis find sheep in the dark?? Careful, this is a family show. /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Mar 19 18:13:15 1997 20:12:38 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: stripper guides Mark, My notes indicate a #8 for 2-3 wts and a #10 for 4-5 wts. JBAt 09:49 19/03/97 -0500, you wrote:I wanted to order a batch of Milrdum stripper guides, and was hoping togetsome comments on what sizes are most commonly used for shorter rods,say 6'through 7'. Milrdum seems to number their guides, and I can't findinformationabout the measurements those numbers represent. Any help would beappreciated. -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 18:37:31 1997 19:31:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades At 08:29 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote:Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Hey Terry! You may well be our most outspoken list member! Have you ever, personally, sharpened a Hock blade? Cheers,Gord Gord,never have, I have been satisfied with the blades that came with theplanes. My sharpening is very basic, I use a belt sander with a very coarse grit toput the primary bevel on- just by hand. I then clamp the blade in thoselittle gizmos with a roller on the bottom and give the blade a doz rubs on amed oil stone. That is besides giving the back of the blade a rub! When thesecondary bevel starts to creep up I use the belt sander again. I remember watching on of the guys give a shapening demo a few years agonowand it took so long which I think can cause problems because you arereluctant to go through the whole lengthly proceedure and try to getanothercouple of strips out. Terry from jsbond@inforamp.net Wed Mar 19 19:54:18 1997 21:53:41 -0400 (AST) Subject: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Greetings Listers, I would like to offer the following regarding plane irons despite thealready heavy discussion on this topic: There is an issue about how old the Stanley iron is. The old blades were asimple high-carbon steel (the kind that rusts), these are good irons thatsharpen well and hold a keen edge. The newer Stanley stuff is mostly somesort of Chrome-Vanadium alloy that won't rust and stays flat in heattreating which are good things for manufacturing and shipping. Howeverthechrome and vanadium additions create large, lumpy carbide particlesduringheat treating and those lumps are bigger than the edge that you desire. Sowhen you hone that edge, these "rocks or lumps" either prevent you fromgetting down to the sharpest edges or they pop out of the matrix causingminute nicks in the edge. Those same carbides are the reason that thoseblades will hold a mediocre edge all day but they'll never get really scarysharp. So as that famous British writer once wrote, "ay, there's the rub;" Stay sharp.James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Mar 19 21:03:50 1997 21:57:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Greetings Listers, I would like to offer the following regarding plane irons despite thealready heavy discussion on this topic: There is an issue about how old the Stanley iron is. The old blades were asimple high-carbon steel (the kind that rusts), these are good irons thatsharpen well and hold a keen edge. The newer Stanley stuff is mostlysomesort of Chrome-Vanadium alloy that won't rust and stays flat in heattreating which are good things for manufacturing and shipping. Howeverthechrome and vanadium additions create large, lumpy carbide particlesduringheat treating and those lumps are bigger than the edge that you desire. Sowhen you hone that edge, these "rocks or lumps" either prevent you fromgetting down to the sharpest edges or they pop out of the matrix causingminute nicks in the edge. Those same carbides are the reason that thoseblades will hold a mediocre edge all day but they'll never get really scarysharp. So as that famous British writer once wrote, "ay, there's the rub;" Stay sharp.James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net Tony,Check out the hock web site, their blades also contain chrome andvanadium,they do not make their own steel, they buy 01 ground flat stock( that iswhat it is called) It is purchased in lengths that has been ground tothickness and width. When they talk of high chrome content this is what swiss army typeknivescontain. No edged woodworking tool are made with these steels. I sharpen my blades with a very coarse stone, I like a 'bit of tooth' on myblade, it makes sharpening a steal and I have not had any rods delaminate. My glue lines are as good as the next guys. There is a great deal of really bad advice circulating on this list. Theproblem is is that in the old days simple craftsmen built rods but it hasnow been taken over by academic types that are tying themselves intoknots. Terry from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 19 21:22:44 1997 Subject: Re: RE:stripper guides To all,I make my rods to cast and fish with. The use of small guides tends(imho)to cut down on the shooting ability of the rod. Only if someone wants abonafide restoration would I go to the smaller guides. On the converse sideI've had some "purists" criticize my rods because of the guide size (theyprobably weren't going to buy anyway). Ya pays yer money and takes yerchoice.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Mar 19 21:23:24 1997 Subject: Re: Please Read Wayne,Luis may not remember me but I had the pleasure of meeting hi m atGreyrock last June. I wish him a speedy recovery and look forward toseeinghin at Greyrock this year.Hank Woolman. from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wed Mar 19 22:10:24 1997 Subject: Sgt. Bilko RO>When I was a lad in Britain, I loved Sgt. Bilko, he was my hero, he wassoRO>smart, I imagined all yanks to be just like him. RO>The truth has been more devestating to me than when I discovered threwas noRO>Santa. RO>Just testing That I am still on. RO>Terry When I was a small lad, I thought the mother-country must've beensomething special. Then I visited merry-old and discovered it was justlike America - but everyone lived in smaller houses. Don Burns from sleach@plessey.co.za Thu Mar 20 01:11:55 1997 08:20:50 +0200 via smap (V3.1) 20 Mar 97 09:14:06 GMT+0200 GMT+0200 Subject: Re:Super Swiss Ferrule Got a series of drawing on super z's in the basement - want me tomail copies of them? I would appreciate that. If there is a general interest I could scan them and offer them to one of the rod building Web Sites. Regards Steve LeachPlessey South Africa LtdP.O.Box 30451Tokai 7966South AfricaTel (021) 710 2460fax (021) 710 2692 from neuneman@fh-ge.de Thu Mar 20 01:47:18 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA18301; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:50:41 +0100 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Terry, you are right! As I found out a nice singe malt work fine, too, as wellas a some Cabernet Sauvignon (see my WWW bamboo page). So far the Guiness part. How about hardening your owm plane irons? I useto harden the irons that came with my Record planes. Works well. Frank from Jerry.Snider@UC.Edu Thu Mar 20 07:01:40 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: Re: Fancy Blades "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses." You still have notanswered the primary question, i.e. what IS the composition of Stanleyblades? (not probably). It might be useful to have this info to comparewith Hock blades, as well as the hardness you have kindly pointed out. If IAM being led around by the nose, I would like to debate as to the reasonswhy or why not. Indeed, chrome and "shiney" have little bearing, however,the two together DO provide some indication as to different treatments,i.e. buffing vs non buffing, but concentration of chrome does, from what Iunderstand, have a bearing on blade quality. Certainly, I am simplysuggesting that you provide numbers for both types of blades to prove thepoint. "Probably" simply doesn't provide the answers we need. If thenumbers agree, then your point is proved, if not....? My oh my, you bamboofellows are quick tempered! At 06:30 PM 3/19/97 -0500, you wrote:Woah! Back up just a moment old friend. Why is the Stanley blade so"shiney" when compared to Hock? More chrome? Please note your ownkeyphrase here, i.e. "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses."Please give us the percent composition of Stanley blades if you wish toprove your point. Only then will the BAAA be well taken!At 08:29 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote:Mon Amies,Just taken a look at the Hock web page and the blurb about theirexpensiveplane blades. According to Hock the blades contain 0.95%C, 1/2% cr,1/2% v.This is a simple straight carbon steel known as ground stock. It isprobably exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses. Another case of the one in the front going Baaa and everyone goes Baaa. Terry Ackland Jerry,What has shiney got to do with chrome? Stanley grind their blades on the front and back after heat treatment toremove the warping that happens with the heat treatment process. Hockdo notgrind, the colour you see is how it comes from their furnace. Hardness is what counts in a plane blade not chrome. Stanley blades are62Rockwell the same as hock. Rockwell is a scale of hardness that isverifiedon a a special machine. There is 1/2% chrome in a hock blade according to their web page. I am not trying to be smart, just helpful. Terry Ackland from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Mar 20 08:14:15 1997 Subject: Re:Super Swiss Ferrule At 09:13 20/03/97 GMT+2, you wrote:Got a series of drawing on super z's in the basement - want me tomail copies of them? Mail them tommorrow - going fishing today. Hope you understand. Don I would appreciate that. If there is a general interest I could scan them and offer them to one of the rod building Web Sites. Regards Steve LeachPlessey South Africa LtdP.O.Box 30451Tokai 7966South AfricaTel (021) 710 2460fax (021) 710 2692 from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Mar 20 08:52:11 1997 Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:51:37 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades People, This plane iron thing is getting silly. It's like demanding to know via charts and tv reports what the weather's doing when you can look outside yourself.There are enough people using Hock and regular irons around to try one and see. If you think they work well, get one, otherwise persist with what you have. The difference isn't hard to see once you try one.If you can't try before you buy as it were and you don't want to risk the cost, take heart in the fact a Hock wont make the strips come out any better than a *sharp* iron made by Stanly, Record, LN or the village blacksmith. What the Hock *does* do is keep the edge longer so you spend more time making shavings than sharpening. Nothing mystical. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Mar 20 09:13:18 1997 IAA02429; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:13:14 -0700 Subject: RE:stripper guides To all,I make my rods to cast and fish with. The use of small guides tends(imho)to cut down on the shooting ability of the rod. Only if someone wants abonafide restoration would I go to the smaller guides. On the conversesideI've had some "purists" criticize my rods because of the guide size (theyprobably weren't going to buy anyway). Ya pays yer money and takes yerchoice.Hank. from what I uderstand the smaller guides on the older rods were becuaseofthe smaller size of silk line. Today with the fat plastic lines we areusing rods will cast better with larger guides. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from george.barnes@acornbbs.com Thu Mar 20 09:31:01 1997 KAA28207 for rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:34:49 - 0500 Subject: Plane Irons If you get tired of comparing plane irons you might try the following: Take a used plane iron, Stanley, Record, Hock or what ever you have. It's not important, None of them are anything extra in my book. Saw off the beveled edge, the width of cut being roughly equal to the carbide in the next step. Braze a piece of carbide (I'll not even mention composition) to the plane iron. Rough shape a new bevel with a green stone on your bench grinder. Finish the bevel with a diamond plate (the steel lap plate with diamonds embedded) Finish the bevel with several grades of diamond paste on a leather belt of leather wheel. If this sound like a lot of work, it is. The results though may be measured in rods between sharpenings instead of strips. Some people don't like the way the carbide "sings" when planing. If that's the case just try the last few steps (diamond plate followed regular plane iron. Again I don't care which brand. Until you try this approach to sharpening, you really don't know what sharp is! from khube@benmeadows.com Thu Mar 20 09:40:55 1997 10:40:45 -0500 Subject: Ferrules I have a couple of rod projects that I consider prototype jobs. I'm notinclined to put the best hardware on these creations; so, I wonder ifanyonehas used some of the low-cost nickle-plated ferrules on testconfigurations?The price differential is a couple of bucks versus $35 to $45 for ferrulesyou would use on most rods. Comments appreciated. Karl HubeMarietta, GeorgiaUSA from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Thu Mar 20 10:42:43 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: Ferrules I have a couple of rod projects that I consider prototype jobs. I'm notinclined to put the best hardware on these creations; so, I wonder ifanyonehas used some of the low-cost nickle-plated ferrules on testconfigurations?The price differential is a couple of bucks versus $35 to $45 for ferrulesyou would use on most rods. Comments appreciated. Karl HubeMarietta, GeorgiaUSA Karl, I don't have any info on low-cost ferrules, but I have to say that thelow-cost reel seats being produced by Pacific Bay are an excellent value.I plan on using this type on my first rod or two (still in the works). They are in the $10-$15 range and are nickle-silver plated aluminumwitha wood insert (choice of walnut and several exotic woods). Severalcatalogs list them. Both downlocking and uplocking are available. Thedownlocking are a little harder to find. If you need sources, let me know- I will look it up tonight and post the info tommorow. -Bob Matarazzo from cparham@crocker.com Thu Mar 20 12:04:13 1997 rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA24738 for; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:02:11 GMT Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Ralph W. Moon wrote: Right on TomRalph At 08:36 AM 3/19/97 +0000, you wrote:Hello all, My $.02 on blades. In the last year I have spent money on forms,stuff for a binder, stuff for an oven, etc. etc. etc.... I alsobought a plane, A Record 9 1/2. I have planed down two rods worth.I sharpened the blade every two strips. Big deal. I'm going to takethe money I would have spent on a hock blade and spend it on a caseof Guiness instead.My suggestion to newer builders is notto get caught up in the tools and stuff. Get the basics, if after acouple of rods you feel you need it, then get it. The first couple of rodsare most likely to be imperfect because of technique, not propertooling. I know that was my case. So what if you have to sharpen often, what's the big rush. Justthink of how much better of a sharpener you'll be : ). Just my opinion. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering One of Fine Woodworking's "Best of" series.... I think it was titled Bench Tools, has a comparison of chisels, (not plane blades.) They reviewed hardness, % carbon and other info. Manufacturers reviewed were Stanley, Craftsman, Sorby and other British, German and Japanese. from low to high hardness: Sears, Stanley, British, German then Japan. from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Mar 20 12:52:23 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrules At 10:39 20/03/97 -0500, Karl wrote:I have a couple of rod projects that I consider prototype jobs. I'm notinclined to put the best hardware on these creations; so, I wonder ifanyonehas used some of the low-cost nickle-plated ferrules on testconfigurations?The price differential is a couple of bucks versus $35 to $45 for ferrulesyou would use on most rods. Comments appreciated. Karl HubeMarietta, GeorgiaUSA Karl, Have a friend in Edmonton, Alberta who no only is Scotch by birth but byinclination. He mounts all hardware possible with hot melt glues. Then ifthe rod experiment was a failure - he reuses the parts. That was you getgood components on the rod and still if its a bust - so what. You must useall metal reel seats - can't get the wood inserts free with heat gun - triedit - smell is incredible. And hot glues will hold ferrules in place.Oldtimers used them for years. Local hobby/hardware shops has a hugesupply. Best of luck, Don PS - landed 3 and missed about 1/2 doz. more - off to same place todayagain. Starting to see some bugs. Can spring be far behind. from rmoon@dns.ida.net Thu Mar 20 13:28:55 1997 Subject: Re: antique rod Does anyone have any information at all about Gammidge Rods fromLondon.Although I have yet to see it one has surfaced and appears from thedescription to be from around the turn of the century. Any information re:distinguishing marks or style, value, availability, description of otherGammidges will be greatly appreciated. I have heard the name, but knownothing more until I saee the rod. Ralph Moon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Thu Mar 20 13:30:41 1997 Subject: Re: Titebond II At 01:03 PM 3/19/97 -0600, you wrote:Ralph Moon, where might I get Titebond II extend in less than 1 gallon lots? Thanks! -Grayson I'm sorry, but I do not think it is packaged any other way. I have awoodworking friend who gave me a pint of it.Ralph from rmoon@dns.ida.net Thu Mar 20 13:49:37 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Wow!! At last a bit of common sense. For me the Hock sharpens faster andretains its edge longer. I used to spend many long hours sharpening all ofmy blades before starting a rod, so that I wouldn't have to stop andsharpenduring the planing. Now I prepare a hock blade and sometime about halfwaythrough the rod a few more minutes cleaning up the edge and I am done. Ithink I told the group about casting a Garrison rod--ugh! As Tony says tryit and make up your mind.Ralph Moon At 10:51 PM 3/20/97 +0800, you wrote:People, This plane iron thing is getting silly. It's like demanding to know via charts and tv reports what the weather's doing when you can look outside yourself.There are enough people using Hock and regular irons around to try one and see. If you think they work well, get one, otherwise persist with what you have. The difference isn't hard to see once you try one.If you can't try before you buy as it were and you don't want to risk the cost, take heart in the fact a Hock wont make the strips come out any better than a *sharp* iron made by Stanly, Record, LN or the village blacksmith. What the Hock *does* do is keep the edge longer so you spend more time making shavings than sharpening. Nothing mystical. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Mar 20 14:56:09 1997 with BSMTP id 4647; Thu, 20 Mar 97 15:54:57 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 8594; Thu, 20 Mar1997 15:54:57 -0500Subject: Re: Sgt. Bilko And who is this Bilko guy? Wasn't he Welsh? from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Mar 20 15:15:09 1997 with BSMTP id 4793; Thu, 20 Mar 97 16:13:56 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 0518; Thu, 20 Mar1997 16:13:55 -0500Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Darn those academic types, they're so thoughtful.And by the by, was Lilly really right--Is realitynothing more than a collective hunch? from rfairfie@cisco.com Thu Mar 20 15:35:34 1997 NAA22002 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:18:56 - 0800 Subject: Re: Ferrules Karl, I've used the ones from Jann's and they work fine. The nickle platingwill probably wear off sometime a few years from now, but they hold therodsections together well. Right now, they are all I'm using, as I am still a REAL beginner. Thanks,Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Mar 20 07:47:50 1997Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:39:58 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Karl Hube Subject: FerrulesMime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: khube@pop.mindspring.comX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent-Length: 386 I have a couple of rod projects that I consider prototype jobs. I'm notinclined to put the best hardware on these creations; so, I wonder ifanyonehas used some of the low-cost nickle-plated ferrules on testconfigurations?The price differential is a couple of bucks versus $35 to $45 for ferrulesyou would use on most rods. Comments appreciated. Karl HubeMarietta, GeorgiaUSA from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Mar 20 16:10:22 1997 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Frank Neunemann wrote: Terry, you are right! As I found out a nice singe malt work fine, too, as wellas a some Cabernet Sauvignon (see my WWW bamboo page). So far the Guiness part. How about hardening your owm plane irons? I useto harden the irons that came with my Record planes. Works well. FrankI've made a few plane irons myself. Guess what? I used O-1Starrett tool steel. Cut the serrations in it with a keyway milling cutter. Quenched in oil and tempered by the book- Machinery's handbook. They sharpen very well and have a long lasting edge. You can make one for about $3.00.John from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Mar 20 16:28:25 1997 Subject: Cattanach The sir name Cattanach derives from the Clan Chattan of Scotland. Thename desended to Cattanach there sometime. I pronounce it Cat - tan -ack. Aninteresting note the other side of the family is Mc Nitt which desendsfromMac Naughtan - in 1272 (according to the Mac Naughtan Sage) the twoclans hada feud. I think the Clan Chattan took a beating.My mother was a Warren - the farm I live on came through her side ofthe family - they bought the place back in 1869 - Back then land taxes on180acres were $1.28 and 12 hours labor with a team of horses and a wagon (Ihavethe reciept). Today they are a little more. Wayne from BYeom58963@aol.com Thu Mar 20 16:43:54 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrules In a message dated 97-03-20 14:09:53 EST, you write: inclined to put the best hardware on these creations; so, I wonder ifanyonehas used some of the low-cost nickle-plated ferrules on testconfigurations? >> Yup!! I've used ferrules from Dale Clemens on project "fishing rods" withnoproblem.be sure of your measurements( In 64ths). I will usually go one sizesmallerthan I think I need , and it works out well. Sometimes if I'm not sure , Iwill bracket the ferrule size and return the incorrect one. I have also used "economy ferrules" from Angler's workshop with thesameresults.I've yet to turn a "sow's ear into a silk purse" but I'm at the mid range ofthe restoration learning curve and it works for me. Bill from mcreek@sirus.com Thu Mar 20 17:04:21 1997 Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Robert,O.K. Bowsma pointed out that there's nothing collective about reality. (Evil Genius that he was.) from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 20 19:20:46 1997 20:14:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Frank Neunemann wrote: Terry, you are right! As I found out a nice singe malt work fine, too, as wellas a some Cabernet Sauvignon (see my WWW bamboo page). So far the Guiness part. How about hardening your owm plane irons? Iuseto harden the irons that came with my Record planes. Works well. FrankI've made a few plane irons myself. Guess what? I used O-1Starretttool steel. Cut the serrations in it with a keyway milling cutter. Quenched in oil and tempered by the book- Machinery's handbook. They sharpen very well and have a long lasting edge. You can make one for about $3.00.John John,Making your own blades, that's a great idea! I was going to extend the slotsin my blades to give tham a little longer life but when I checked thehardness it is only 62RC at the cutting end. I presume that the blades areinduction hardened.It is good to hear from you again,Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 20 19:50:27 1997 20:44:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades "It is PROBABLY exactly the same stuff as Stanley uses." You still havenotanswered the primary question, i.e. what IS the composition of Stanleyblades? (not probably). It might be useful to have this info to comparewith Hock blades, as well as the hardness you have kindly pointed out. If IAM being led around by the nose, I would like to debate as to the reasonswhy or why not. Indeed, chrome and "shiney" have little bearing, however,the two together DO provide some indication as to different treatments,i.e. buffing vs non buffing, but concentration of chrome does, from what Iunderstand, have a bearing on blade quality. Certainly, I am simplysuggesting that you provide numbers for both types of blades to prove thepoint. "Probably" simply doesn't provide the answers we need. If thenumbers agree, then your point is proved, if not....? My oh my, you bamboofellows are quick tempered! Jerry,If you look at a new Stanley plane you will notice that the blade has beenlaquered after grinding to stop the blade from rusting. Hock blades are 01( oil hardening) tool steel-that is a high carbon chromesteel. It is not a wonder steel. It is inexpensive, has been around yearsand years. It is a good steel but I think Hock are grossly overcharging. You can get the same hardness eg. 62RC with either Hock or Stanley and itisthe hardness that counts. Jesus, how the hell does Wayne manage to stay with you guys? I amstartingto develope a facial tick as well! He must have the patience of a saint. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Mar 20 20:17:57 1997 21:11:50 -0500 Subject: Stanley blades I have just sent a private email to Tony Young and thought I might repeatthe gist of it. I have found that Stanley blades are not hardened all over, only in thecutting area. If some of you are using old planes you could be into the softportion of the blade. The hardness does not change abruptly, but gradually.The hardness of the blade could be getting gradually softer without younoticing it.Just a thought,Terry from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Mar 20 20:18:27 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Several of us are friends Wayne from bootstrap@earthlink.net Thu Mar 20 20:42:06 1997 Subject: Re: Please Read Wayne: You're just confirminmg what a correspondent in Alaska told me afew weeks back._ "You meet some very nice people on the cork end of acanerod."Best wishes to Luis, and smile a lot, it really helps. Frank in Colorado WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: SNIP What I had in mind was to collect the notes here and then send themas a'get well' to him so that he could read them during his down time. from you as well - perhaps describing your stage of rod making andwhat youhope the future will hold. I would appreciate the help Wayne Mr. Marden, c/o Wayne Cattanach, You don't know me, but, to paraphrase Harvey Pennick, anyone who makesrods is a friend of mine. All the best, keep the faith. People like youare who inspire people like me. I'm just starting this wonderfulpursuit, but hope to contribute my two cents, especially from anengineering point of view. I look forward to your book, and to hearing of your speedy recovery. Best wishes,Ed Estlow .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Mar 20 23:28:09 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-20 20:54:19 EST, you write: Terry -Apparently our focus is different. I have a job that I'm a licensedprofessional at and rod making is my hobby. In fact it is our family hobbywith our son and daughter just as fly fishing is. If there is a professionalrod maker in the family it would be my son, Matthew. He has paid for hiscollege education so far by making bamboo fly rods. But he realizes thatoncehe gets his engineering degree rod making will fall to being a hobby forhimas well.The reward I'm after money can't buy - the rodmakers list isn't anavenue to market rods through - it's about individuals and their personalpursuit for excellence, and it's about sharing that personal goal withothers. And it's about friendships. Over the years I've met many of themembers of this list and it's where we can hang out together andencourageand support one another. If you have come to this list for any other reasonthen that, then I'm afraid that you may find yourself frustrated. Wayne from mrj@seanet.com Fri Mar 21 00:41:39 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA06927 for Subject: reel seat finishes I am making my reel seats and have a question on the finishes. I ammaking a swelled butt style with one glued on slip ring and one loose. Ihave gotten a pretty good finish by dipping the seat in the varnish andletting it drip and then rotating in my rod turner. On the end becauseof the end grain, the finish soakes in and I need to do a second coat.When I have done this, I have gotten some crinkling of the finishunderneath I believe. I am using a polyurethene finish and I have triedrecoating in 4 to 6 hours, 24 hours, and letting dry for several days and I still get the crinkling. The finish sayes "polyurethene finish"not varnish. I doubt that I will use this stuff any more but I want touse what I have if it will work. I'm wondering if maybe the finish isgoing on too thick? The body comes out just fine. Maybe I need to sealthe seat first real well? I tried that by wiping on the first coat withno excess. I figured that it would be enough of a first coat. Anysuggestions? If I can get rid of this crinkling on the end of this reelseat I will have a real good looking reel seat here, and so far for therods I am making these will work, but they are not as good as I wouldlike. from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Mar 21 01:59:26 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-21 00:32:32 EST, you write: Terry - Apparently our focus is different. I have a job that I'm a licensedprofessional at and rod making is my hobby. In fact it is our family hobby Deleted for brevity.... And it's about friendships. Over the years I've met many of themembers of this list and it's where we can hang out together andencourageand support one another. If you have come to this list for any otherreasonthen that, then I'm afraid that you may find yourself frustrated. Wayne>> That's the question I have been wondering about myself - Whydid Terence Ackland return to this list. On the first go aroundhe left in disgust and said we never listen anyway. If I may make a few observations here....Wayne comes across the internet email medium as "one of us"I feel that he genuinely wants to help a neophyte such as myselfand he helps as much as he can. Terence Ackland on the other hand - and this may not be whathe is truly doing, but he comes across this way - as a personsaying "I'm the professional, you guys are amateurs, I knowwhat I am doing - you don't." If one of us amateurs comes up with an unorthodox ideaand wants to know if anyone else has tried it, or has anopinion about it, we ask the members of this list. I havenever seen Mr. Cattanach criticize anyone about anything.Mr. Ackland seems to always have a criticism about everything and everybody, and I think this rubs some people thewrong way. I'm sure Mr. Ackland makes an excellent canerod and has a lot he can contribute to this list, but he hasmade a lot of people defensive and ready to verbally attackat any chance. I can't speak for anyone else on this list, but for myself, Iwelcome constructive discourse and will ignore untoward criticism. Darryl Hayashida from neuneman@fh-ge.de Fri Mar 21 02:14:55 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA23038; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:18:21 +0100 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness John, John Zimny wrote: Frank Neunemann wrote: Terry, you are right! As I found out a nice singe malt work fine, too, as wellas a some Cabernet Sauvignon (see my WWW bamboo page). So far the Guiness part. How about hardening your owm plane irons? Iuseto harden the irons that came with my Record planes. Works well. FrankI've made a few plane irons myself. Guess what? I used O-1Starrett toolsteel. Cut the serrations in it with a keyway milling cutter. Quenchedin oil and tempered by the book- Machinery's handbook. They sharpen verywell and have a long lasting edge. You can make one for about $3.00.John Sounds great! I hardened them "the wrong way" (just cooled in cold waterinstead of oil) in order to get them as hard as possible, but I have towatch out not to nick them. Mine sharpen very well, too and sometimesstay sharp for 6 strips. Frank from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Mar 21 02:36:06 1997 Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:35:27 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: reel seat finishes On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Martin Jensen wrote: I am making my reel seats and have a question on the finishes. I ammaking a swelled butt style with one glued on slip ring and one loose. Ihave gotten a pretty good finish by dipping the seat in the varnish andletting it drip and then rotating in my rod turner. On the end becauseof the end grain, the finish soakes in and I need to do a second coat.When I have done this, I have gotten some crinkling of the finishunderneath I believe. I am using a polyurethene finish and I have triedrecoating in 4 to 6 hours, 24 hours, and letting dry for several days and I still get the crinkling. The finish sayes "polyurethene finish"not varnish. I doubt that I will use this stuff any more but I want touse what I have if it will work. I'm wondering if maybe the finish isgoing on too thick? The body comes out just fine. Maybe I need to sealthe seat first real well? I tried that by wiping on the first coat withno excess. I figured that it would be enough of a first coat. Anysuggestions? If I can get rid of this crinkling on the end of this reelseat I will have a real good looking reel seat here, and so far for therods I am making these will work, but they are not as good as I wouldlike. If you're getting a good finish on the first coat but not the second possibly the first isn't dry enough before applying the second?To avoid doing a second coat you may try sealing with shellac before the varnish. If you use shellac keep applying thin coats until the grain is filled. Shellac drys quickly so you can make a buildup quite rapidly.Just make sure the finish will stick to the shellac. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Fri Mar 21 04:43:41 1997 KAA26378 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:43:18GMT Subject: Re: antique rod Does anyone have any information at all about Gammidge Rods fromLondon.Although I have yet to see it one has surfaced and appears from thedescription to be from around the turn of the century. Any informationre:distinguishing marks or style, value, availability, description of otherGammidges will be greatly appreciated. I have heard the name, but knownothing more until I saee the rod. Ralph Moon Ralph, I can find nothing in my collector's books about a London rod-maker namedGammidge. I suspect your rod was sold by the up-market London store -Gamages (in Oxford Street, London). They would not have made the rodsthemselves, but would have had them made by a reputable outside work- shop.There were many contract rod-makers in Britain at that time, and theymade etc.). Gamages were a highly reputable store, and I suspect that your rodwould have been made up to a standard, rather than down to a price. I betit's covered in hundreds of horrible intermediates too. These high class stores also sold reels under their own names: forexamplewe often find Allcocks reels marketed by Army and Navy. Similarly, I haveasmall 'Birmingham Plate' fly reel marked Gamages, which was certainlymade Talking of Allcocks - I collect their 'Aerial' centre-pin reels. These weremade in many styles and sizes between 1890 - 1965. I'd be interested tohear from anyone who has one or more. John Cooper (England) from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Fri Mar 21 04:43:59 1997 KAA26389 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:43:40GMT Subject: Novice's Tribulations/Ferrule re-bluing A second mailing of this message. I had no replies to the last, and Isuspect some computer glitch prevented it going out properly. Lots of encouraging messages following my mailing 'A Novice'sTribulations'.Mostly with the sage advice to get on and finish the rod. OK, I'll do that,but it will certainly be more decorative than useful. Many thank's toeveryone. I recently obtained a copy of Michael Sinclair's excellent book on bamboorod restoration. Writing on the subject of ferrule re-bluing, he mentions ahighly effective formula explained in the Kirkfield book. Does anyone havethat formula, and notes on its use. At present I'm using a French product called Tourmaline Black. It's wellknown that perfection in re-bluing is 99% preparation, and given thatattention to preparation the Tourmaline's effect is quite good when firstdone, but does tend to become rather brown after a year or two's exposuretoUV., even when lacquered or varnished. It would be good to have somethingthat keeps that attractive rich blue for longer. I have 100 year-old Hardy rods that have beautiful, even, hard, originalbluing. When asked, Hardy's ever-so politely, and apologetically, claim tohave lost the original formula that they used on nickel-silver and brass. Idon't believe them for one second - but they are not going to tell, sothat's that. Many thank's in advance for any information you might have. John Olliff-Cooper (England) from ddm7t@faraday.clas.virginia.edu Fri Mar 21 07:41:35 1997 21 Mar 97 8:41 EST (8.7.6/8.6.6) id IAA453226 for RODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu; Fri, 21 Mar1997 08:41:31 -0500 Subject: Fancy Blades etc...... Reading the information and discourse of this list is honestlyone of the highlights of my typical day (sounds kind-of sad,eh!) and far-and-away the people who present their ideas aresavy, encouraging and completely positive. When Terry A.stopped posting I felt it a real loss, even though he can be abit abrasive. Being a curmudgeon, however, doesn't disqualifyone from having a generally positive effect on the whole, and Ideeply appreciate him sharing his insights andexperience.....even though I occasionally wince while readinghis offerings. It's a big world and I've been involved with a lot of forums ofdifferent sorts and this one is great. I hope Terry willcontinue to contribute and participate..takes all kinds. Dave Makel from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Fri Mar 21 07:41:50 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) 07:42:25 -0600 Subject: RE: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story 4.0.994.63 At the risk of changing the subject....................Who is O.K.Bowsma?I searched the net.I searched the University of Illinois' On-line Catalog and foundnothing about this evil genius.Olaf Borge,Love many, trust few, paddle your own canoe. ----------From: brian & michelle creek[SMTP:mcreek@sirus.com]Sent: Thursday, March 20, 1997 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Robert,O.K. Bowsma pointed out that there's nothing collective about reality. (Evil Genius that he was.) from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Fri Mar 21 07:43:41 1997 Subject: Variables/Testing To all, subjectsof the building of cane rods. Ignoring the tapers question and the variances between the culmsthemselves,there are a number of other techniques or materials used in the buildingprocess that may effect the outcome of the action of the rod. These include: - glues- tempering- finishes- number of guides and placement- number of sections- moisture control when building- moisture control of the finished rod- soak or not to soak strip prior to node staightening- enamel removal - node placement- nodeless And the list goes on. The question is: When a new/different process or technique is introducedtothe building of the rod, how does the builder determine the effects onaction/castability. Are there tests that the builder can perform thatwoulddetermine whether he changed the action. When I tested various times/temps. when working on the temperingquestion, Iused two tests: 1] I mounted the strip at a angle and place a weight on the tip, measuredhow far the tip dropped and determined the deflection. This test wasdesigned to measure the strength of the strip.2] I mounted the strip at the same angle as above and placed a weight onthetip and left it for 10 minutes. I measured the deflection after the weightwas removed. This test was to determine how the strip/rod would recovertostraight after fighting a large fish. I also attempted a vibration test to determine whether the strip wouldvibrate less after tempering. This test was a failure! The strip was pulleddown to a predetermine point and released. The strip assumed an ovalshapepath when released. I would assume that glued up rods may negate the ovalshape. As I was working with strips, I couldn't perform the test. Stripsused all came from the same culm and were split out side by side. Thisattempted to remove the variances between culms during the testing. The challenge: To describe a test or series of tests that the builder can do to determineif process/techniques he's made change the action of the rod. Put on your thinking caps on you academic types and help and Terry - youcanjust give us a pronoucement. regards, Don from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Mar 21 08:02:32 1997 Subject: Re: Plane Irons In a message dated 3/20/97 3:34:30 PM, George Barnes wrote: Let me just say "amen" to that. I used planes for years before I took upcanerodbuilding, and thought I knew how to sharpen. About a year ago, Georgegotme to try this setup. I haven't touched a bench stone since. __ Tom from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Fri Mar 21 08:26:59 1997 Subject: Re: antique rod RO>Talking of Allcocks - I collect their 'Aerial' centre-pin reels. ThesewereRO>made in many styles and sizes between 1890 - 1965. I'd be interestedto hearRO> from anyone who has one or more. RO>John Cooper (England) John, I've got the names of about half dozen people in the U.S. that putout rod & reels lists. If you're interested in the addresses, pleasee-mail me directly - my new server company's software cuts off aposter's net-name off of list-serv posting and I only get the rodmakersreturn address. Try looking around at: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htm Don Burns from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Fri Mar 21 08:29:20 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Pac Bay Reel Seats To those who asked about Pacific Bay Reel Seats, They can be purchased from several of the mail-order rod buildingcatalogs. The catalog listed below seems to have the best pricesand the most complete selection of these reel seats: Fishin Fin-Addict26 Ridgewood Ave.Hawthorne, NJ 07506Tel. 1(800) 673- 3474 I believe the Jann's Netcraft catalog also has them, but I don't havethe address. Bob MatarazzoMelville, NY from rmoon@dns.ida.net Fri Mar 21 08:54:12 1997 Subject: Re: reel seat finishes If you are turning your fillers, you might try Behlens Padding finish. Itis super quick (minutes) hard and beautiful. Ralph Moon At 10:43 PM 3/20/97 -0800, you wrote:I am making my reel seats and have a question on the finishes. I ammaking a swelled butt style with one glued on slip ring and one loose. Ihave gotten a pretty good finish by dipping the seat in the varnish andletting it drip and then rotating in my rod turner. On the end becauseof the end grain, the finish soakes in and I need to do a second coat.When I have done this, I have gotten some crinkling of the finishunderneath I believe. I am using a polyurethene finish and I have triedrecoating in 4 to 6 hours, 24 hours, and letting dry for several days and I still get the crinkling. The finish sayes "polyurethene finish"not varnish. I doubt that I will use this stuff any more but I want touse what I have if it will work. I'm wondering if maybe the finish isgoing on too thick? The body comes out just fine. Maybe I need to sealthe seat first real well? I tried that by wiping on the first coat withno excess. I figured that it would be enough of a first coat. Anysuggestions? If I can get rid of this crinkling on the end of this reelseat I will have a real good looking reel seat here, and so far for therods I am making these will work, but they are not as good as I wouldlike. from rmoon@dns.ida.net Fri Mar 21 09:01:17 1997 Subject: Re: antique rod Ralph, I can find nothing in my collector's books about a London rod- makernamedGammidge. I suspect your rod was sold by the up-market London store -Gamages (in Oxford Street, London). They would not have made the rodsthemselves, but would have had them made by a reputable outside work- shop.There were many contract rod-makers in Britain at that time, and theymade etc.,etc.). Gamages were a highly reputable store, and I suspect that your rodwould have been made up to a standard, rather than down to a price. I betit's covered in hundreds of horrible intermediates too. These high class stores also sold reels under their own names: forexamplewe often find Allcocks reels marketed by Army and Navy. Similarly, Ihave asmall 'Birmingham Plate' fly reel marked Gamages, which was certainlymade Talking of Allcocks - I collect their 'Aerial' centre-pin reels. These weremade in many styles and sizes between 1890 - 1965. I'd be interested tohear from anyone who has one or more. John Cooper (England) John Many thanks. The name Gammidges seemed familiar. Your explanation thatitwas probably a rod made for GAMEGES is very likely on the button. I knowrealize why the name seemed familiar. I'll see the rod today and knowsomething more of it, but I can say with certainty that it has HUNDREDSOFHORRIBLE INTERMEDIATES.tHANKS AGAIN,rALPH from dlh@deltafaucet.com Fri Mar 21 09:20:18 1997 deltafaucet.com 1997 15:25:42 UT SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) 10:18:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... Dave, I agree with you. I have only been on this list for 3 days. I have not built a rod (yet) but have four I hope to restore. I sort of restored a bamboo rod of my fathers when I was in High School (late '58 or '59)but have no idea where it is today). So far, I,m reading and learning all I can before I attempt to do something that will ruin the value of whatI have now. Plan to buy some books soon, trying to figure out whichones. I am finding the daily reading very interesting and often informing. The one thing certain about any group of people is that they are different. That's what makes things so interesting and fascinating. I'm sure there are things about any of us that someone may or maynot necessarily like, that's true in everything we do. Regardless of the tone used to put forth an idea, good ideas can be sorted out. Savewhat you want, trash what you don't want. I have not been involved in a formum like this before. I think the variety is great. Don ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Fancy Blades etc......Author: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at ccmgate Reading the information and discourse of this list is honestly one of the highlights of my typical day (sounds kind-of sad, eh!) and far-and-away the people who present their ideas are savy, encouraging and completely positive. When Terry A. stopped posting I felt it a real loss, even though he can be a bit abrasive. Being a curmudgeon, however, doesn't disqualify one from having a generally positive effect on the whole, and I deeply appreciate him sharing his insights and experience.....even though I occasionally wince while reading his offerings. It's a big world and I've been involved with a lot of forums of different sorts and this one is great. I hope Terry will continue to contribute and participate..takes all kinds. Dave Makel from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Fri Mar 21 09:33:04 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA09988 for; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:33:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing Hello Don, I too have watched and listened, and continued on anyway. I have seen techno-nerds(I was one myself) to straight out just do it this way type of builders. All have their values if you keep an open mind. If predictability is what I was looking for, I wouldn't be using bamboo, made by mom nature, no two alike. To achieve your challenge, you would have to quantify the effect of each of the processes and its contribution to the rod. You would then have to weight each process as to how severe of an effect it would have on the finished action. Then you would need the help of some graduate statistician to come up with some kind of fuzzy logic/multivariate analyses. Now you have a prediction. Now is the tough part, validating your process. You have to build several of the EXACT same rod, controlling everything to the humidity in your workshop down to the dreaded sharpness of your blade, let alone type. Hey wait, this sounds like work.When I first started rod building, I also wanted this type of info. Now, I found that time behind the plane gave me more insight than any arbitrary statistics. My plan is to build a couple of rods, fish them for a year, make notes as to likes and dislikes, next winter make some changes. Only one change at a time. On what?, oh I don't know, we'll see what I feel like doing. I'll rely on intuition, and the experienceof the builders I met on this list, even Terry ; ).So, I guess I won't be much of a help to your challenge. Besides, if it required all that knowledge, I wouldn't be here. Regards.Tom subjectsof the building of cane rods. Ignoring the tapers question and the variances between the culmsthemselves,there are a number of other techniques or materials used in the buildingprocess that may effect the outcome of the action of the rod. These include: - glues- tempering- finishes- number of guides and placement- number of sections- moisture control when building- moisture control of the finished rod- soak or not to soak strip prior to node staightening- enamel removal - node placement- nodeless And the list goes on. The question is: When a new/different process or technique is introducedtothe building of the rod, how does the builder determine the effects onaction/castability. Are there tests that the builder can perform thatwoulddetermine whether he changed the action. When I tested various times/temps. when working on the temperingquestion, Iused two tests: 1] I mounted the strip at a angle and place a weight on the tip, measuredhow far the tip dropped and determined the deflection. This test wasdesigned to measure the strength of the strip.2] I mounted the strip at the same angle as above and placed a weight onthetip and left it for 10 minutes. I measured the deflection after the weightwas removed. This test was to determine how the strip/rod wouldrecover tostraight after fighting a large fish. I also attempted a vibration test to determine whether the strip wouldvibrate less after tempering. This test was a failure! The strip waspulleddown to a predetermine point and released. The strip assumed an ovalshapepath when released. I would assume that glued up rods may negate theovalshape. As I was working with strips, I couldn't perform the test. Stripsused all came from the same culm and were split out side by side. Thisattempted to remove the variances between culms during the testing. The challenge: To describe a test or series of tests that the builder can do to determineif process/techniques he's made change the action of the rod. Put on your thinking caps on you academic types and help and Terry - youcanjust give us a pronoucement. regards, Don Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Mar 21 10:34:09 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... In a message dated 97-03-21 08:56:03 EST, you write: I agree with this and personally I don't mind Mr. Ackland onthis list, but someone new to the hobby might not write inwith a question if he thought he might get flamed for histroubles. When I first started I asked a lot of stupid questionsand fortunately Wayne, Bruce, Reed and all the others werevery patient with me and encouraged me to continue. If I hadrun across Mr. Ackland two years ago I might not have writtenin to the list as much, and I wouldn't have gotten the informationthat I did. If we want to make this on old curmudgeon only listthen fine - let's criticise and make fun of all neophyte questions.If we want to promote our hobby (and livelihood in some cases)and get as many people involved as we can then let's be a littlemore civil. Darryl Hayashida from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Mar 21 10:51:55 1997 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing A good example of this variation - At the first get together in Grayrockthere were three rods made to the same numbers each by a differentmaker -all cast differently. The variation thing isn't limited to bamboo alone - if you watch theWinston Waters video you see the use of a deflection board to determine ifagraphite rod has turned out to the acceptable window of tolerance. I knowthat you can special order Scott rods either lighter or heavier that thestandard models. I'm sure that these are the blanks that fall outside ofthere tolerance window.One of the reasons that I've settled into 'ol' fartism in trying newanything is to be able to maintain a certain amount of consistency fromrodto rod. Realizing the even at best there are differances. I would think that if a maker was to set up a standard for testing that adeflection board would be the first of several tests.Another thought would be to measure the resistance (ohm meter) of thebamboo - there are meters that are used to grade dryness of wood. I oncetalked to a manufacture of such metters - they said that it would workbutthat I would have to create my own scale of moisture content - wherethesecharts already exist for the different species of wood. from rfairfie@cisco.com Fri Mar 21 10:58:16 1997 IAA28471 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:57:36 - 0800 Subject: Re: Pac Bay Reel Seats Janns Netcraft address and phone number.. Jann's NetcraftP.O. Box 89Maumee, Ohio 435371-800-638-2723 from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Mar 21 06:38:36 1997Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 09:32:04 EST Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com (Bob Matarazzo X2631) Subject: Pac Bay Reel SeatsX-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent-Length: 437 To those who asked about Pacific Bay Reel Seats, They can be purchased from several of the mail-order rod buildingcatalogs. The catalog listed below seems to have the best pricesand the most complete selection of these reel seats: Fishin Fin-Addict26 Ridgewood Ave.Hawthorne, NJ 07506Tel. 1(800) 673- 3474 I believe the Jann's Netcraft catalog also has them, but I don't havethe address. Bob MatarazzoMelville, NY from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Fri Mar 21 11:13:44 1997 Subject: Re:[2] Variables/Testing At 10:34 21/03/97 +0000, you wrote:Hello Don, I too have watched and listened, and continued on anyway. I have seen techno-nerds(I was one myself) to straight out just do it this way type of builders. All have their values if you keep an open mind. If predictability is what I was looking for, I wouldn't be using bamboo, made by mom nature, no two alike. To achieve your challenge, you would have to quantify the effect of each of the processes and its contribution to the rod. You would then have to weight each process as to how severe of an effect it would have on the finished action. Then you would need the help of some graduate statistician to come up with some kind of fuzzy logic/multivariate analyses. Now you have a prediction. Now is the tough part, validating your process. You have to build several of the EXACT same rod, controlling everything to the humidity in your workshop down to the dreaded sharpness of your blade, let alone type. Hey wait, this sounds like work. Tom, Although I've built about 60 rods of various tapers over the past 15 years,I keep coming back to the same taper - modifying, changing one thing @ atime to get understanding of what processes/techniques does to each rod- sofar I've built about 25 of this taper. I don't have them all as they havebeen sold or donated to TU auctions. Still, there must be a best way buildthese things. I know that I won't live long enough to figure out theanswers, but I'd hoped that others would contribute their success/failuresin the types of testing they had used to determine their individualprocesses/techniques so that each of us could learn from the collectivewisdom of the whole group.One of the rods built early in the testing period ['83 or '84] has about4000 hours on it. With it I am looking for glue failures or other long termproblems. Only problems so far encountered are: [1]the cork iscompressingalong the thumb/first finger point, [2] the rod needed to be stripped andrewrapped about 3000 hours. [3] the glue lines on the cork rings are notcompressing @ the same rate as the cork itself and require filingoccasionally. Everything else is going strong. When I first started rod building, I also wanted this type of info. Now, I found that time behind the plane gave me more insight than any arbitrary statistics. My plan is to build a couple of rods, fish them for a year, make notes as to likes and dislikes, next winter make some changes. Only one change at a time. On what?, oh I don't know, we'll see what I feel like doing. I'll rely on intuition, and the experienceof the builders I met on this list, even Terry ; ).So, I guess I won't be much of a help to your challenge. But, you will likley contribute. As you gain experience from your building,you can share with others furthering the craft of rod building. The post was to solely a request to add to the knowledge of the group. Besides, if it required all that knowledge, I wouldn't be here. Regards.Tom subjectsof the building of cane rods. Ignoring the tapers question and the variances between the culmsthemselves,there are a number of other techniques or materials used in thebuildingprocess that may effect the outcome of the action of the rod. These include: - glues- tempering- finishes- number of guides and placement- number of sections- moisture control when building- moisture control of the finished rod- soak or not to soak strip prior to node staightening- enamel removal - node placement- nodeless And the list goes on. The question is: When a new/different process or technique isintroduced tothe building of the rod, how does the builder determine the effects onaction/castability. Are there tests that the builder can perform thatwoulddetermine whether he changed the action. When I tested various times/temps. when working on the temperingquestion, Iused two tests: 1] I mounted the strip at a angle and place a weight on the tip, measuredhow far the tip dropped and determined the deflection. This test wasdesigned to measure the strength of the strip.2] I mounted the strip at the same angle as above and placed a weight onthetip and left it for 10 minutes. I measured the deflection after theweightwas removed. This test was to determine how the strip/rod wouldrecover tostraight after fighting a large fish. I also attempted a vibration test to determine whether the strip wouldvibrate less after tempering. This test was a failure! The strip waspulleddown to a predetermine point and released. The strip assumed an ovalshapepath when released. I would assume that glued up rods may negate theovalshape. As I was working with strips, I couldn't perform the test. Stripsused all came from the same culm and were split out side by side. Thisattempted to remove the variances between culms during the testing. The challenge: To describe a test or series of tests that the builder can do todetermineif process/techniques he's made change the action of the rod. Put on your thinking caps on you academic types and help and Terry -you canjust give us a pronoucement. regards, Don Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from mrj@seanet.com Fri Mar 21 11:49:25 1997 krim.seanet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)with SMTP id JAA16190 for ; Fri, 21Mar 1997 09:46:21 -0800 Subject: Re: reel seat finishes Thank you I will look into it. The finish I am using now is harder than spar varnish, I'm sure, but I'm not happy with it. In message writes:If you are turning your fillers, you might try Behlens Padding finish. Itis super quick (minutes) hard and beautiful. Ralph Moon At 10:43 PM 3/20/97 -0800, you wrote:I am making my reel seats and have a question on the finishes. I ammaking a swelled butt style with one glued on slip ring and one loose. Ihave gotten a pretty good finish by dipping the seat in the varnish andletting it drip and then rotating in my rod turner. On the end becauseof the end grain, the finish soakes in and I need to do a second coat.When I have done this, I have gotten some crinkling of the finishunderneath I believe. I am using a polyurethene finish and I have triedrecoating in 4 to 6 hours, 24 hours, and letting dry for several days and I still get the crinkling. The finish sayes "polyurethene finish"not varnish. I doubt that I will use this stuff any more but I want touse what I have if it will work. I'm wondering if maybe the finish isgoing on too thick? The body comes out just fine. Maybe I need to sealthe seat first real well? I tried that by wiping on the first coat withno excess. I figured that it would be enough of a first coat. Anysuggestions? If I can get rid of this crinkling on the end of this reelseat I will have a real good looking reel seat here, and so far for therods I am making these will work, but they are not as good as I wouldlike. Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Fri Mar 21 11:49:27 1997 krim.seanet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)with SMTP id JAA15415 for ; Fri, 21Mar 1997 09:40:23 -0800 Subject: Re: reel seat finishes thanks Tony, I will try the shellac. I'm sure that the finish was drybecause I tried one coat after letting the first coat dry for almost a week. I had toin order for the finnish to be hard enough to sand down a little. In message writes:On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Martin Jensen wrote: I am making my reel seats and have a question on the finishes. I ammaking a swelled butt style with one glued on slip ring and one loose. Ihave gotten a pretty good finish by dipping the seat in the varnish andletting it drip and then rotating in my rod turner. On the end becauseof the end grain, the finish soakes in and I need to do a second coat.When I have done this, I have gotten some crinkling of the finishunderneath I believe. I am using a polyurethene finish and I have triedrecoating in 4 to 6 hours, 24 hours, and letting dry for several days and I still get the crinkling. The finish sayes "polyurethene finish"not varnish. I doubt that I will use this stuff any more but I want touse what I have if it will work. I'm wondering if maybe the finish isgoing on too thick? The body comes out just fine. Maybe I need to sealthe seat first real well? I tried that by wiping on the first coat withno excess. I figured that it would be enough of a first coat. Anysuggestions? If I can get rid of this crinkling on the end of this reelseat I will have a real good looking reel seat here, and so far for therods I am making these will work, but they are not as good as I wouldlike. If you're getting a good finish on the first coat but not the second possibly the first isn't dry enough before applying the second?To avoid doing a second coat you may try sealing with shellac before the varnish. If you use shellac keep applying thin coats until the grain is filled. Shellac drys quickly so you can make a buildup quite rapidly.Just make sure the finish will stick to the shellac. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ Martin Jensen from tball@sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.us Fri Mar 21 12:01:46 1997 sunny.ncmc.cc.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29223 for Subject: Re: tung oil finish Patrick Coffee A couple of weeks ago you wrote about using polimerized Tung Oil tofinish off fly rods. An old master you were apprenticed to gave you theinfo for gun stocks. Would you please share with us how to make thepolimerized Tung Oil. Thanks Tom-- [Dial-In Configuration]SiteName=ISP NameName=Password=InternationalNumber=falsePhone= [IP]DNSAddress=0.0.0.0Enabled=YesIPAddress=0.0.0.0DomainName=DNSAddress2=0.0.0.0 [NetBEUI]Enabled=No [IPX]Enabled=No [Security]SecurityDevice=NoSecurityEcho=No [Services]SMTP_Server=NNTP_Server=POP_Server= [Script]ScriptEnabled=NoScriptTerminal=NoScriptFileName=ISP.SCPScriptRecord=NoScriptRecordTimeout=30 from JCZIMNY@dol.net Fri Mar 21 14:40:07 1997 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness Hi Terry,Yeah. The blades are no trouble to make. I did encounted some warpage. But that was easily resolved with a diamond lapping plate and some elbow grease. I have a friend who is a true smith - I mean- he makes beautiful edged tools. I think mine are a little softer than the Hocks--but I could'nt swear to it. They work well.John from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Mar 21 14:51:03 1997 15:44:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Hock or Guiness John, John Zimny wrote: Frank Neunemann wrote: Terry, you are right! As I found out a nice singe malt work fine, too, as wellas a some Cabernet Sauvignon (see my WWW bamboo page). So far the Guiness part. How about hardening your owm plane irons? Iuseto harden the irons that came with my Record planes. Works well. FrankI've made a few plane irons myself. Guess what? I used O-1Starrett toolsteel. Cut the serrations in it with a keyway milling cutter. Quenchedin oil and tempered by the book- Machinery's handbook. They sharpenverywell and have a long lasting edge. You can make one for about $3.00.John Sounds great! I hardened them "the wrong way" (just cooled in cold waterinstead of oil) in order to get them as hard as possible, but I have towatch out not to nick them. Mine sharpen very well, too and sometimesstay sharp for 6 strips. Frank Cold water is ok for thin parts and where there is is no need to worryabout warping. Chrome is added to the steel to make it easier to harden iein oil,so as to reduce the thermal shock and even more chrome makes itpossible to harden in air! Terry from JCZIMNY@dol.net Fri Mar 21 15:00:18 1997 Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Borge, Olaf A. wrote: At the risk of changing the subject....................Who is O.K.Bowsma?I searched the net.I searched the University of Illinois' On-line Catalog and foundnothing about this evil genius.Olaf Borge,Love many, trust few, paddle your own canoe. ----------From: brian & michelle creek[SMTP:mcreek@sirus.com]Sent: Thursday, March 20, 1997 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Robert,O.K. Bowsma pointed out that there's nothing collective about reality.(Evil Genius that he was.)Yeah. Pray tell. Who is Bowsma??John from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Mar 21 15:27:50 1997 16:21:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-20 20:54:19 EST, you write: Terry -Apparently our focus is different. I have a job that I'm a licensedprofessional at and rod making is my hobby. In fact it is our family hobbywith our son and daughter just as fly fishing is. If there is a professionalrod maker in the family it would be my son, Matthew. He has paid for hiscollege education so far by making bamboo fly rods. But he realizes thatoncehe gets his engineering degree rod making will fall to being a hobby forhimas well.The reward I'm after money can't buy - the rodmakers list isn't anavenue to market rods through - it's about individuals and their personalpursuit for excellence, and it's about sharing that personal goal withothers. And it's about friendships. Over the years I've met many of themembers of this list and it's where we can hang out together andencourageand support one another. If you have come to this list for any other reasonthen that, then I'm afraid that you may find yourself frustrated. Wayne Wayne,have I ever tried to market my rods through this this list? never. I have onoccasions noticed that you are not too adverse in trying to hawk books,videos, wrapping machines, ovens, and even your own children are beinggivena spot.I think builders should be encouraged to think for themselves, dig outinformation for themselves not take every word they read as gospel. Perhaps the guys prefer the "what is the best string" type of listings, niceand cosy and the answer is easy? Terry from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Mar 21 15:51:58 1997 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing I'd like to second Tom Ausfeld's opinion about trying toquantify all the factors involved in changing a rods action. glues, different tempering, tried to measure the moisturecontent, made a nodeless strip and measured it against a strip with the nodes left in, etc. My conclusion was - develop a method which works for you, as far as splitting, heat treating, gluing, number of guides, finish, etc. it doesn't matter exactly what youdecide on, as long as you don't drastically change your method in mid-stream, and then go after understanding tapers. In my opinon the taper is the biggest factor in what kind of action a rod will have. And stress curves are the best way of seeing what a taper will do beforeyou actually build a rod. Darryl Hayashida from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Fri Mar 21 16:06:43 1997 Subject: Pac Bay Reel Seats RO>To those who asked about Pacific Bay Reel Seats, RO>They can be purchased from several of the mail-order rod buildingRO>catalogs. The catalog listed below seems to have the best pricesRO>and the most complete selection of these reel seats: RO> Fishin Fin-AddictRO> 26 Ridgewood Ave.RO> Hawthorne, NJ 07506RO> Tel. 1(800) 673-3474 RO>I believe the Jann's Netcraft catalog also has them, but I don't haveRO>the address. RO> Bob MatarazzoRO> Melville, NY Jann's NetcraftP.O. Box 89Maumee, OH 43537(800) netcraft or (419) 868-8288 FAX -- 8338 from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Mar 21 16:07:08 1997 17:00:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-21 00:32:32 EST, you write: Terry - Apparently our focus is different. I have a job that I'm a licensedprofessional at and rod making is my hobby. In fact it is our familyhobby Deleted for brevity.... And it's about friendships. Over the years I've met many of themembers of this list and it's where we can hang out together andencourageand support one another. If you have come to this list for any otherreasonthen that, then I'm afraid that you may find yourself frustrated. Wayne>> That's the question I have been wondering about myself - Whydid Terence Ackland return to this list. On the first go aroundhe left in disgust and said we never listen anyway. If I may make a few observations here....Wayne comes across the internet email medium as "one of us"I feel that he genuinely wants to help a neophyte such as myselfand he helps as much as he can. Terence Ackland on the other hand - and this may not be whathe is truly doing, but he comes across this way - as a personsaying "I'm the professional, you guys are amateurs, I knowwhat I am doing - you don't." If one of us amateurs comes up with an unorthodox ideaand wants to know if anyone else has tried it, or has anopinion about it, we ask the members of this list. I havenever seen Mr. Cattanach criticize anyone about anything.Mr. Ackland seems to always have a criticism about everything and everybody, and I think this rubs some people thewrong way. I'm sure Mr. Ackland makes an excellent canerod and has a lot he can contribute to this list, but he hasmade a lot of people defensive and ready to verbally attackat any chance. I can't speak for anyone else on this list, but for myself, Iwelcome constructive discourse and will ignore untoward criticism. Darryl Hayashida Darryl, be nice now, I think I have contributed a lot to this list, I have always given a validreason why I disagree with certain methods, such as Titebond andCharmichaels heat treatment. I did not get any mail saying that I waswrong,in actual fact a quite a few guys came out in support of my ideas. Perhaps then I am doing some good, Im getting guys thinking, I know itputssome noses out of joint, especially those that are rather sensitive. Before I came back on the list I checked through the archives in JerryFoster's page and it was bloody boring (the listing that is) and I decidedto try to liven things up a little. I cant stay on the list much longer, Iam really busy with the rods and being only a 1 finger typist it takes metoo long. Does not take me long to upset folk though. One thing that I have noticed about these lists is that there is a peckingorder, a group of Generals that like to be the only guys that have the'knowledge' I must admit that I like to tease and get these guys to get intoa discussion but they keep their heads down. I know that once I am offtheywill all creep out again. It is only a bit of fun Darryl, lets face rodmaking is repetitive and boringsometimes.TerryA fly rod adds legitimacy to a grown man that wants to fool around in thewater up to his scrotum on a hot day. T.Ackland from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 21 16:07:54 1997 ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Wayne,have I ever tried to market my rods through this this list? never. I haveonoccasions noticed that you are not too adverse in trying to hawk books,videos, wrapping machines, ovens, and even your own children are beinggivena spot.I think builders should be encouraged to think for themselves, dig outinformation for themselves not take every word they read as gospel. Perhaps the guys prefer the "what is the best string" type of listings,niceand cosy and the answer is easy? Terry I have been hanging around for some time now -- not saying much --trying to learn and only have this to say: THE ABOVE CRAP HAS NO PLACE ON THIS LIST !!! I'M APPALLED !!!! To date, while there have been differences of opinion, things have beencivil. There are too many gentlemen on the list to have this kind ofverbage ocurring. I'm a newbie -- never having built a cane rod -- and have reallyappreciated being able to learn from the masters. Why should I berequired to re-invent the wheel when there is so much knowledge andexperience that will help reduce my learning curve. If that's not whatthis list is for, then I don't know why I'm here. I have really appreciated Wayne's readiness to share. He typifies -- tome -- what this is all about. If he is "hawking" ovens, binders, booksor videos, I suspect he is doing it at a cost to him in time and effortand not with any resulting profit involved. The only motive is to helppeople like me get into this fantastic "hobbie" on a basis that will getthewre without the mistakes that others have found. If that's faultymotivation, then too basd for those who so think. I can only quote Emmerson as to motives: YOUR ACTIONS SPEAK SO LOUDTHAT I CON NOT HEAR WHAT YOU SAY ! Wayne -- Kepp on being Wayne...... I appreciate your help and all ofthe rest of you. FRED-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FRED BOHLS, CFPBohls Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17011-9698Office: (717) 732-2448Fax: (717) 732-2414e-mail: fcfp@ix.netcom.com from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Fri Mar 21 16:12:40 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:17:57 EDT Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Perhaps the guys prefer the "what is the best string" type of listings,niceand cosy and the answer is easy? TerryI really did not want to get involved in this whole thing but I think I have something to legitimately say now. I have been only watching this serv for about 3 months now. (give or take) In that time I have been shot down by you for asking questions that you felt were apparently obvious. In fact, it was insulting to assume I did not my research before asking. I am a beginner! That is a fact. I have bought books, loaned out books through the library, and done as much research as possible. In my mind, this is a place to do research, at whatever level that is. If I want alternative approaches to simple solutions I think it is representative of what is ideal. Individual thought and creativity. Personally, I have never seen Wayne solicit business but I could be incorrect. Maybe in my mind that is not the area of concern. I would hope that anyone new to this arena would not be shut off for asking simple questions. Some people....including myself....are at the simple stage. Terry has offered be some great advice, as well as a lot of others. I have saved messages containing what I feel is important information and am grateful for everyone's help. So could we please get off the group think gang bashing. Jon LintvetIthaca College from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Mar 21 16:24:24 1997 17:17:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing To all, subjectsof the building of cane rods. Ignoring the tapers question and the variances between the culmsthemselves,there are a number of other techniques or materials used in the buildingprocess that may effect the outcome of the action of the rod. These include: - glues- tempering- finishes- number of guides and placement- number of sections- moisture control when building- moisture control of the finished rod- soak or not to soak strip prior to node staightening- enamel removal - node placement- nodeless And the list goes on. The question is: When a new/different process or technique is introducedtothe building of the rod, how does the builder determine the effects onaction/castability. Are there tests that the builder can perform thatwoulddetermine whether he changed the action. When I tested various times/temps. when working on the temperingquestion, Iused two tests: 1] I mounted the strip at a angle and place a weight on the tip, measuredhow far the tip dropped and determined the deflection. This test wasdesigned to measure the strength of the strip.2] I mounted the strip at the same angle as above and placed a weight onthetip and left it for 10 minutes. I measured the deflection after the weightwas removed. This test was to determine how the strip/rod wouldrecover tostraight after fighting a large fish. I also attempted a vibration test to determine whether the strip wouldvibrate less after tempering. This test was a failure! The strip waspulleddown to a predetermine point and released. The strip assumed an ovalshapepath when released. I would assume that glued up rods may negate theovalshape. As I was working with strips, I couldn't perform the test. Stripsused all came from the same culm and were split out side by side. Thisattempted to remove the variances between culms during the testing. The challenge: To describe a test or series of tests that the builder can do to determineif process/techniques he's made change the action of the rod. Put on your thinking caps on you academic types and help and Terry - youcanjust give us a pronoucement. regards, Don OK Don now I remember you did a great article in the planing form a fewyears back about heat treatment. I recall the Garrison T/T and the Flamedplus you cooked for longer. Yes all coming back now. That is what rodbuilding is all about, discovering things for yourself, notponcing about on this list praising each other up. Terry from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Fri Mar 21 17:11:24 1997 with BSMTP id 2828; Fri, 21 Mar 97 18:10:14 EST MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 3404; Fri, 21 Mar1997 18:10:14 -0500Subject: Chilling the Mark There is a certain strength to weak ties; they become asource of innovation. In many ways, this list is representativeof a collection of weak ties--of people who don't knoweach other well, although some do of course, but mostof us have never met or spoken in other arenas. We'refriendly (or should be I hope), but not friends, andthat's the advantage and the well from which innovationsprings. Each of us provides access to scarce information,and resources (personal knowledge, expertise, experience)which would otherwise be difficult to access or evencompletely unavailable, and all of us benefit from that.So does cane rod building. Innovations happen best in places where informationis freely shared, and "ways of doing it" are challenged.But condescension is not one of the required ingredients,nor is it an idle ingredient. It does have an effectand I don't see how it's at all helpful to anyone butthe originator. Challenge is important and useful, butthe wrong packaging is not useful, it chills thespring, and it's entirely narcissistic, drawing allto itself. Baaa, Bob. from MasjC1@aol.com Fri Mar 21 17:42:18 1997 Subject: Simon Wang -- The Anglers Art Address Simon Wang, Tried to response to your request off line for The Anglers Art address butthe message bounced. The address for The Anglers Art is: P. O. Box 148Plainfield, PA 17081 800-848-1020 Phone717-243-8603 Fax The Angler's Bamboo ahould be shipping next week. I'm sure they will be happy to hear from you. While you are at it ask for acopy of their catalog. It is the most complete listing of flyfishingliterature that I've seen. If you don't see it in the catalog, ask. Leadville is a great place and the fishing is good. Not many large fish at10,520 ft. but browns and native cutts. Hope this helps. Mark ColeLeadville, COHouston, TX from mcreek@sirus.com Fri Mar 21 18:21:49 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... amen from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Mar 21 18:27:43 1997 Subject: Nets-Not plane irons Hi Dan Nugent, 3/20/97Regarding your nets, could I ask where you get nice net bags these days?Has been a problem fitting my old classic (?) wooden nets. Thanks. Bill from mcreek@sirus.com Fri Mar 21 18:29:29 1997 Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story Bowsma (??Bousma) wrote an existential/phenomenological paper aboutwhatwould happen if an all powerful evil genius could manipulate your mindand existence completely. He ran through a bunch of 'what-ifs' and cameto the conclusion that no matter what the EG did, existence was defined a Dover reprint. It's only maybe 30 pages in length. Haven't seen orread it in twenty years. Brian from mcreek@sirus.com Fri Mar 21 18:42:24 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Terry,The list would certainly be less zesty without you. Hope you continueto find the time to chide us into looking twice at sacred beef. And bythe way, is it my imagination or does your use of the language improvewhen you're on the soap box? Brian from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Mar 21 19:37:42 1997 Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:37:34 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Nets-Not plane irons On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Bill Fink wrote: Hi Dan Nugent, 3/20/97Regarding your nets, could I ask where you get nice net bags thesedays?Has been a problem fitting my old classic (?) wooden nets. Thanks. Bill Dan,would you post this to the group please? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jaquin@netsync.net Fri Mar 21 20:52:53 1997 quartz.netsync.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA24434 for; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:52:48 -0500 Subject: Hungary I will be going to Hungary for the month of April Wpould like to meetsome of the European rod makers within a reasonable driving distance ofBudapest. Any good trout fishing in that area? any info would beappreciated. from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Fri Mar 21 22:01:34 1997 Subject: Hungary RO>I will be going to Hungary for the month of April Wpould like to meetRO>some of the European rod makers within a reasonable driving distanceofRO>Budapest. Any good trout fishing in that area? any info would beRO>appreciated. I'm not from Budapest (try Los Angeles), but I was there last Junemyself. I had posted several request for fishing info. on ROFF and gotzip for a response. I don't think anyone in Hungary has the money to buybamboo. The only place I saw fishing in Hungary (no flyfishing at all) was onLake Balaton (sp?). That's about 75 miles or 4 hours by train. I will say that the fishing in nearby Slovenia was great. Post me if youwant some details. In general, Budapest (post-communist period) is changing fast. DO NOTPAY the meter rate for a cab. Work out a price before you get in a cab. If you take a bus, get a bus ticket (100F?) from your hotel and punch ityourself in the bus. No one else will use one, but a tourist might getpinched for not having a ticket. Forget the year old tour book prices - everything in town is at theWestern rates now - even if the service sucks. Budapest is at the moment something like a cross between Vienna andTujuana. Ladies of the night, pickpockets and clapped out buildingsmixed with 100's of Dunkin Donuts stores. Construction is going oneverywhere and shades of the former glory all hidden under 50 years ofdirt. There a good Hungarian restaurant (tourist style) in Pest calledsomething sounding like RA-KA-CASS. Don Burns PS - sorry for the bandwidth, my server strips the email address andonly gives me the list-serv address. from Dane_Johnson@msn.com Fri Mar 21 22:51:10 1997 (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id UAA09847 for; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:45:58 -0800 Subject: RE: reel seat finishes Give this a try...rub a little linseed or tung oil into the endgrain a day before dunking... should help with the absorption by the endgrain... Dane. from Dane_Johnson@msn.com Fri Mar 21 22:53:14 1997 (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id TAA26416 for; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:53:48 -0800 Subject: RE: Flame drying a Culm You can also use a 'weed burner' torch... they put out lots of heat and are fairly reasonable in price... not only that you can convince the wife that it is not just for rod-building, but can also be used for yard work... Dane. from Leessinker@aol.com Sat Mar 22 00:03:29 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Amen Fred,Thanks again Wayne.Dewayne from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Sat Mar 22 04:08:18 1997 KAA17643 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:08:12GMT Subject: Youngs reels/agates/Hardys FerrulesAny amount of mail on plane blades and spacer finishes, but still noin-coming mail with Kirkfield's ferrule re-bluing formula. HELP ..... Doesanyone have that formula, and notes on its use? Chris McDowell - re. Young's reelsA first-class firm of reel-makers, now re- organised, and making goodproducts of world class quality.I don't recognise your old reel from the description, but try Youngsthemselves for info.J.W.Young, Unit 1, 1Enfield Industrial Estate, Redditch, Worcs. B97 6BGEngland JorgeCarcao - re.agatesYes George, we sometimes find them, but we call them 'gold-dust'. Butrealgold-dust is only $350 an ounce. John Linvet -re. Hardys, etc.Ask Hardys themselves where their outlets and shops are situated. Theirmainshop is in Pall Mall, Central London (nr. Buckingham Palace - mostappropriately).House of Hardy Ltd., Willowburn, Alnwick, Northumberland, NE66 2PGEnglandTry also: Kingfishers of Stow on the Wold, in the Cotswold Hills,Gloucestershire, England. They are one of the few shops selling vintagetackle. The owner is Simon Legg. Don Burns - I'll mail you direct. John Cooper (England) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Mar 22 05:07:01 1997 Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:06:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Youngs reels/agates/Hardys On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, John Cooper wrote: FerrulesAny amount of mail on plane blades and spacer finishes, but still noin-coming mail with Kirkfield's ferrule re-bluing formula. HELP ..... Doesanyone have that formula, and notes on its use? Chris McDowell - re. Young's reelsA first-class firm of reel-makers, now re- organised, and making goodproducts of world class quality.I don't recognise your old reel from the description, but try Youngsthemselves for info.J.W.Young, Unit 1, 1Enfield Industrial Estate, Redditch, Worcs. B97 6BG England I recently had reason to contact JW Young to complain of poor service re spares here in Australia (not Young's fault but the local distributors) and Young's response was exemplary. Not only was the problem resolvedbut they have an interesting set of new and old advertising flyers they will send if asked. Because they are interested in resurecting the name in it's own right they would prob be very helpful with any info they may have.Their fax is +44 (0) 152762561 Incidently the new range of reels is very good. /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Sat Mar 22 05:10:15 1997 LAA18333 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:10:01GMT Subject: Bamboo time shadows I'm new to this list, so it may be that I'm asking for answers that havebeen given many times. If so, forgive me. Does anyone have a method of eliminating or reducing the shadows foundonbamboo under aged guide-wraps and intermediates? They are not too muchof aproblem under direct replacement wraps, but permanent removal ofintermediates, or changes to ring spacing are hardly possible without veryobvious and unattractive lines showing through the varnish. There's also the problem of dark water-staining of the cane. It doesn'tseemto affect the integrity of the material. We can rationalise its presence bycalling it 'attractive patina' but in truth the rod would clearly lookbetter without. Over-sanding is obviously unacceptable. Staining over-all might be apossibility, but not ideal on a pretty rod. Thank's in advance for any help you can offer. John Cooper (England) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Mar 22 06:33:54 1997 Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:33:44 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Youngs reels/agates/Hardys On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Tony Young wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, John Cooper wrote: FerrulesAny amount of mail on plane blades and spacer finishes, but still noin-coming mail with Kirkfield's ferrule re-bluing formula. HELP .....Doesanyone have that formula, and notes on its use? Chris McDowell - re. Young's reelsA first-class firm of reel-makers, now re- organised, and making goodproducts of world class quality.I don't recognise your old reel from the description, but try Youngsthemselves for info.J.W.Young, Unit 1, 1Enfield Industrial Estate, Redditch, Worcs. B97 6BG England I recently had reason to contact JW Young to complain of poor service re spares here in Australia (not Young's fault but the local distributors) and Young's response was exemplary. Not only was the problem resolvedbut they have an interesting set of new and old advertising flyers they will send if asked. Because they are interested in resurecting the name in it's own right they would prob be very helpful with any info they mayhave.Their fax is +44 (0) 152762561 Incidently the new range of reels is very good. oops, should mention here due to the vague similarity of surname that I have no financial relationship with JW Young. I don't even have a relational relationship with them.:-) /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Sat Mar 22 06:57:13 1997 Subject: Re: Bamboo time shadows Cooper" at Mar 22, 97 11:10:01 am John Your mention of intermediate wraps and "water-staining" makes mewonder if youhave a Calcutta, not a Tonkin, cane rod, in which case, the "stains" arenormal and not removable. The intermediate wraps could indicate a rod oldenough to be Calcutta. -Mark M. FreedDEpartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu There's also the problem of dark water-staining of the cane. It doesn'tseemto affect the integrity of the material. We can rationalise its presencebycalling it 'attractive patina' but in truth the rod would clearly lookbetter without. Over-sanding is obviously unacceptable. Staining over-all might be apossibility, but not ideal on a pretty rod. Thank's in advance for any help you can offer. John Cooper (England) -- from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Sat Mar 22 09:23:21 1997 PAA22020 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:23:08GMT Subject: Re: Bamboo time shadows John Your mention of intermediate wraps and "water-staining" makes mewonder if youhave a Calcutta, not a Tonkin, cane rod, in which case, the "stains" arenormal and not removable. The intermediate wraps could indicate a rodoldenough to be Calcutta. -Mark M. FreedDEpartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu There's also the problem of dark water-staining of the cane. It doesn'tseemto affect the integrity of the material. We can rationalise its presencebycalling it 'attractive patina' but in truth the rod would clearly lookbetter without. Over-sanding is obviously unacceptable. Staining over-all might be apossibility, but not ideal on a pretty rod. Thank's in advance for any help you can offer. John Cooper (England) Mark Thank's for the input. No it's not Calcutta - we Brits have been putting hundreds of ridiculousintermediates on rods all this century: latterly, just for the looks.They're all on Tonkin bamboo. Do you have a way of reducing/removingtheseshadows (presumably something to do with UV.) from rmoon@dns.ida.net Sat Mar 22 09:35:13 1997 Subject: Hardys Antique Rod :John Linvet -re. Hardys, etc.Ask Hardys themselves where their outlets and shops are situated. Theirmainshop is in Pall Mall, Central London (nr. Buckingham Palace - mostappropriately).House of Hardy Ltd., Willowburn, Alnwick, Northumberland, NE66 2PGEnglandTry also: Kingfishers of Stow on the Wold, in the Cotswold Hills,Gloucestershire, England. They are one of the few shops selling vintagetackle. The owner is Simon Legg. Thanks John, you anticipated my request. I have seen the Gameges rod Imentioned the other day. It is indeed a fine rod. Hundreds ofintermediates, spiked brass ferrules, quite good condition. The tip isabout 3 inches short and there is some minor varnish chipping. The guidesare quite different, the feet lap over onto flats adjacent to the ring. Iam fairly convinced that it could be a Hardy--has that appearance--but Idon't know if Hardy did private label work or not. Your address may helpme. Also here in the colonies Jim Schaaf has quite a reputation as anexpert on Hardy Rods. Does anyone on the net have Jim's address. Ralph Moon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Sat Mar 22 09:40:57 1997 Subject: Re: Bamboo time shadows John I wish I could help. I have had the same problem. Just a thought,since I am too damned hyper to check it out myself, but you might tryexposing the stripped pieces to strong ultraviolet light. Sun bleach for aperiod of time. I'd hesitate to try chemical bleasches, but????????.Staining is tough and not particularly attractive as you point out.Sanding?? How much is too much? If you come up with an answer let usknow. Ralph Moon At 11:10 AM 3/22/97 GMT, you wrote:I'm new to this list, so it may be that I'm asking for answers that havebeen given many times. If so, forgive me. Does anyone have a method of eliminating or reducing the shadows foundonbamboo under aged guide-wraps and intermediates? They are not toomuch of aproblem under direct replacement wraps, but permanent removal ofintermediates, or changes to ring spacing are hardly possible withoutveryobvious and unattractive lines showing through the varnish. There's also the problem of dark water-staining of the cane. It doesn'tseemto affect the integrity of the material. We can rationalise its presence bycalling it 'attractive patina' but in truth the rod would clearly lookbetter without. Over-sanding is obviously unacceptable. Staining over-all might be apossibility, but not ideal on a pretty rod. Thank's in advance for any help you can offer. John Cooper (England) from DANNUGENT@aol.com Sat Mar 22 10:02:17 1997 Subject: Re: Nets-Not plane irons BillI can make you one or you can get one of those machine made ones forabout 6to 8 dollars. If i make one i need to know the number of holes in the rimandthe size of the opening length. If a problem call me. DAN(717)266-6024 from sats@gte.net Sat Mar 22 13:15:52 1997 ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:15:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... I agree with this and personally I don't mind Mr. Ackland onthis list, but someone new to the hobby might not write inwith a question if he thought he might get flamed for histroubles. Terry's from north of the Border. There's a crusty old guy on FF@that is also from north of the border. Must be a Canadian thing. Seriously, every list needs people that stur things up. The bestanswer is to ask "How do YOU do it." Sometimes they have some danggood answers. Another TerryTerry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flsats@gte.net Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from jsbond@inforamp.net Sat Mar 22 13:43:59 1997 15:43:23 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... Hey! Careful out there, You can't tar us all with the same brush! I'mcanadian through and through so is Don Anderson, Ted Knott, Mauro Aiello,Dan Akyroyd, John Candy, Rick Moranis, Donald Sutherland, Peter Jennings,Christopher Plummer, Michael J. Fox, Roderick H. Brown (Born in the U.K.)and thirty million others. Most generalizations, including this one, arefalse. We wish we owned Montana and Idahobut we can hold our own with some great rivers, Atlantic salmon,steelhead,browns, cutts, rainbows, brookies, dolly's, bull.....need I go on? Come up and fish sometime, your dollars go a long way up here. F.Y.I, I amsitting in Toronto which is the same latitude as northern California, gofigure. JB At 18:57 22/03/97 GMT, you wrote: I agree with this and personally I don't mind Mr. Ackland onthis list, but someone new to the hobby might not write inwith a question if he thought he might get flamed for histroubles. Terry's from north of the Border. There's a crusty old guy on FF@that is also from north of the border. Must be a Canadian thing. Seriously, every list needs people that stur things up. The bestanswer is to ask "How do YOU do it." Sometimes they have some danggood answers. Another TerryTerry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flsats@gte.net Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from santiago@ricochet.net Sat Mar 22 15:08:33 1997 NAA12089 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:08:27 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... James Bond wrote: Hey! Careful out there, You can't tar us all with the same brush! I'mcanadian through and through so is Don Anderson, Ted Knott, MauroAiello,Dan Akyroyd, John Candy, Rick Moranis, Donald Sutherland, PeterJennings,Christopher Plummer, Michael J. Fox, Roderick H. Brown (Born in the U.K.)and thirty million others. Most generalizations, including this one, arefalse. We wish we owned Montana and Idahobut we can hold our own with some great rivers, Atlantic salmon,steelhead,browns, cutts, rainbows, brookies, dolly's, bull.....need I go on? Come up and fish sometime, your dollars go a long way up here. F.Y.I, I amsitting in Toronto which is the same latitude as northern California, gofigure. JB At 18:57 22/03/97 GMT, you wrote: I agree with this and personally I don't mind Mr. Ackland onthis list, but someone new to the hobby might not write inwith a question if he thought he might get flamed for histroubles. Terry's from north of the Border. There's a crusty old guy on FF@that is also from north of the border. Must be a Canadian thing. Seriously, every list needs people that stur things up. The bestanswer is to ask "How do YOU do it." Sometimes they have some danggood answers. Another TerryTerry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Flsats@gte.net Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net James Bond, Toronto, CanadaFax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net hello james, i will go anywhere any time to fish. met very good people in all thoseplaces. fishing always became 2nd priority. btw, i will be in montreal at the end of august...any suggestions onwhere to go? it is a family gathering and more than a few hours drive iwill become suspect. thanks for the help...you can email me directly santiago@ricochet.net from burgould@mint.net Sat Mar 22 16:19:55 1997 mint.mint.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11096 for; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:19:52 -0500 Subject: Guide Placement Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on the tipsection of a two piece rod? "Close" being within one to one and one- halfinches from the ferrule station. If so, what are such drawbacks? Wayne'sbook indicates that the spacing should be extrapolated from the placementofthe top guide of the butt section of the rod. This makes sense, however, ifsuch spacing is important, I will be spending tomorrow cutting andrewrapping my guides, which would be unfortunate. My current spacing is:guide one, five inches from the tip; guide two, six inches from guide one;all subsequent guides spaced one inch further than the last. I guess my Also, assuming my spacing is faulty -- a strong likelihood -- can anyonesuggest an appropriate guide spacing for an eight foot, two piece, fiveweight (the plan was for a five weight -- we shall see) rod. Thanks from Bangor, Maine. Bill. from DANNUGENT@aol.com Sat Mar 22 16:41:13 1997 Subject: nets Looking for mchuff@___________.__I did not receive all your e-mail please send again.DANNUGENT@AOL.COM from sats@gte.net Sat Mar 22 20:04:16 1997 ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:04:11 -0600 Subject: Rebuild III Well, I replaced the butt section (or most of it) on the 6 1/2 rod and nowit works. Had to use a mid section for a 9ft. 3pc. from my collectionof odds and ends. Spliced it about 1 in above the reel seat, using aferrule. Replaced the cork and re-rapped the section and fired 'erup. Casts about 55-60 ft.. using DT-5. I didn't push it too far butdid put a 'little' strain on it. Next is the real test... Will itcatch fish. I learned a lot with this rod. How to set Ferrules being the chiefthing. (also took a close look at a cross section of the old blankand was surprised to see that two of the sections appeared to bealmost totally power fiber and two others appeared to have almost nopower fibers in them at all!) One thing I did notice that someone on the list could explain. When Istarted working on the tip it was almost straight -- Very little "set"at all. When I removed a little bamboo from the outside of the tipsection, the set became more pronounced! I'm not sure I understandthe dynamics of what's going on here. I tried to make sure I removedthe same amount from each flat. Could it be that the side thatcontrolled the "set" was harder then the opposite side??---Terry KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from mrj@seanet.com Sat Mar 22 22:23:54 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29344 for Subject: Re: Guide Placement Elizabeth Burke wrote: Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on the tipsection of a two piece rod? "Close" being within one to one and one- halfinches from the ferrule station. If so, what are such drawbacks? Wayne'sbook indicates that the spacing should be extrapolated from theplacement ofthe top guide of the butt section of the rod. This makes sense, however,ifsuch spacing is important, I will be spending tomorrow cutting andrewrapping my guides, which would be unfortunate. My current spacingis:guide one, five inches from the tip; guide two, six inches from guide one;all subsequent guides spaced one inch further than the last. I guess my Also, assuming my spacing is faulty -- a strong likelihood -- can anyonesuggest an appropriate guide spacing for an eight foot, two piece, fiveweight (the plan was for a five weight -- we shall see) rod. Thanks from Bangor, Maine. Bill.This is from a novice (5 rods built). I just use the spacing chart thatis from Sage. I know, graphite, but I have made a lot of rods with thisspacing and they work just fine. I place a snake guide fairly close tothe ferrule most of the time. Sometimes this screws up the Sage chartand if this is the case the rule I use is to make sure that no matterwhat, the distance between guides gradually gets less as the roddiameter gets smaller.Usually I want at least a half inch difference andnot more that one to one and a half inches. These figures are on the tipsection. On the butt section usually my rods (so far) have only twoguides.I really doubt that you can hurt a rod too much by guide placement but IDO believe that the action can be influenced by guide placement. from mcreek@sirus.com Sat Mar 22 22:59:41 1997 Subject: Gee, this doesn't look that sharp. . . . Hiya Y'All - Just made the same discovery most of you have already made. Eventhough everybody says,"wear gloves," those strips just didn't looksharp enough to justify the hassle. Damn! I hate it when I'm thatwrong! Brian from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Mar 23 00:01:41 1997 Subject: Kirkfield's Blackening Agent John - I borrowed a copy of Kirkfield's book through the interlibrary loanservice and read the section on blackening. The impression I got from thechapter was that it would be more trouble than it would be worth tryingtoobtain the chemicals used in his formula, so I didn't bother copying therecipe. Although, I admit, I didn't call around to check on theiravailability due to the construction of my binder, dipping tube, etc. I havecopied recipes off the list that contained chemicals more readilyavailable.One that comes to mind used chemicals that could be purchase from aphotography store. Kirkfield recommended that a chemist mix the agentand Ibelieve that it had to be stored in a special dark glass container as wellasneeding special handling. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance. Goodluck. Kurt from bub@harborside.com Sun Mar 23 00:57:31 1997 WAA14931 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:57:26 Subject: Re: Gee, this doesn't look that sharp. . . . brian & michelle creek wrote: Hiya Y'All -Just made the same discovery most of you have already made. Eventhough everybody says,"wear gloves," those strips just didn't looksharp enough to justify the hassle. Damn! I hate it when I'm thatwrong! BrianI found out the same way, those edges are like razor blades, they theydo make a person think a lot harder about finger cots .leo in oregon from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Sun Mar 23 08:09:35 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... RO>Hey! Careful out there, You can't tar us all with the same brush! I'mRO>canadian through and through so is Don Anderson, Ted Knott, MauroAiello,RO>Dan Akyroyd, John Candy, Rick Moranis, Donald Sutherland, PeterJennings,RO>Christopher Plummer, Michael J. Fox, Roderick H. Brown (Born in theU.K.)RO>and thirty million others. Most generalizations, including this one, areRO>false. We wish we owned Montana and IdahoRO>but we can hold our own with some great rivers, Atlantic salmon,steelhead,RO>browns, cutts, rainbows, brookies, dolly's, bull.....need I go on? RO>Come up and fish sometime, your dollars go a long way up here. F.Y.I, IamRO>sitting in Toronto which is the same latitude as northern California, gofig RO>JB RO>James Bond, Toronto, CanadaRO>Fax (416) 444-8380RO>E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net James, Before moving to Los Angeles (La-La land) from Buffalo, N.Y. (Ithink you can guess the reason for the move ), I used to fishKingscote Lake and some small streams in the Haliburton Highlands areaof Ont. with my father. Great memories of clean lakes, large lake trout,small brookies and swarms of black flies. That's where I first used a cane fly rod - one of my dad's 9' MontagueSunbeams. If you ever get a chance - check out the upper York River for some nicebrookies. Don Burns PS - In California, we don't worry about the latitude - we talk moreabout elevations. IE - Snow level is down to the 5000' level. I've seensnow falling at Lake Tahoe in June. While in the Napa Valley (wine country) the northern end is the hottestand the southern end the coolest due to the winds coming off the S.F.Bay. "The coldest winter I ever spent, was a summer in San Francisco" -Mark Twain from bx470@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sun Mar 23 09:33:56 1997 IAA05314; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:33:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Kirkfield's Blackening Agent John - I borrowed a copy of Kirkfield's book through the interlibrary loanservice and read the section on blackening. The impression I got from thechapter was that it would be more trouble than it would be worth tryingtoobtain the chemicals used in his formula, so I didn't bother copying therecipe. Although, I admit, I didn't call around to check on theiravailability due to the construction of my binder, dipping tube, etc. Ihavecopied recipes off the list that contained chemicals more readilyavailable.One that comes to mind used chemicals that could be purchase from aphotography store. Kirkfield recommended that a chemist mix the agentand Ibelieve that it had to be stored in a special dark glass container as wellasneeding special handling. Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance. Goodluck. Kurt Kurt, I checked the book out of the Denver Library and came to the sameconclusion. I don't rember the exact formula but I think it combined HCLacid and arsnic? along with some other noxious sounding stuff. It wasalso highly reccomended that it be mixed by a professional chemist in alab. Seems like disposing ouf used chemicals was also a problem. Can'tjust put down the drain. I purchased some of Jim Paynes Blackening agent from George Mauer. Iwillbe trying out soon just glued up my next rod and the customer hasrequested blackened fittings. Being an old photographer I was also interested in the Kodak rapid fixer,chemicals that I am much more comfortable with in a different use thanthemix from the Bamboo book and much cheaper than the Paynes stuff. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Mar 23 10:21:31 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:27:02 EDT Subject: Re: Gee, this doesn't look that sharp. . . . Here is a thought....I went out before I started making rods and bought a pair of leather gloves. After one afternoon of planing i noticed the left hand was all ripped up. It was my first rod so I was probably holding a little too tight. I ended up cutting the right hand glove into pieces to patch the fingers on the other glove. Looking at some of those slashes....gets me thinking. Jon Hiya Y'All -Just made the same discovery most of you have already made. Eventhough everybody says,"wear gloves," those strips just didn't looksharp enough to justify the hassle. Damn! I hate it when I'm thatwrong! BrianI found out the same way, those edges are like razor blades, they theydo make a person think a lot harder about finger cots .leo in oregon from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Mar 23 15:58:26 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:03:56 EDT Subject: TEST Just a test. Jon from burgould@mint.net Sun Mar 23 18:00:41 1997 mint.mint.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA30248 for; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:00:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement Thank you for your suggestions -- they are quite helpful. Does anyone else have other thoughts re guide placement? I was hoping toprompt some debate on this issue. Does the relative silence indicate thatit does not really matter where I place my guides? -- surely this cannotbetrue. Bill from Bangor. At 08:26 PM 3/22/97 -0800, you wrote:Elizabeth Burke wrote: Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on thetipsection of a two piece rod? "Close" being within one to one and one- halfinches from the ferrule station. If so, what are such drawbacks? Wayne'sbook indicates that the spacing should be extrapolated from theplacement ofthe top guide of the butt section of the rod. This makes sense, however,ifsuch spacing is important, I will be spending tomorrow cutting andrewrapping my guides, which would be unfortunate. My current spacingis:guide one, five inches from the tip; guide two, six inches from guideone;all subsequent guides spaced one inch further than the last. I guess my Also, assuming my spacing is faulty -- a strong likelihood -- cananyonesuggest an appropriate guide spacing for an eight foot, two piece, fiveweight (the plan was for a five weight -- we shall see) rod. Thanks from Bangor, Maine. Bill.This is from a novice (5 rods built). I just use the spacing chart thatis from Sage. I know, graphite, but I have made a lot of rods with thisspacing and they work just fine. I place a snake guide fairly close tothe ferrule most of the time. Sometimes this screws up the Sage chartand if this is the case the rule I use is to make sure that no matterwhat, the distance between guides gradually gets less as the roddiameter gets smaller.Usually I want at least a half inch difference andnot more that one to one and a half inches. These figures are on the tipsection. On the butt section usually my rods (so far) have only twoguides.I really doubt that you can hurt a rod too much by guide placement but IDO believe that the action can be influenced by guide placement. from russett@bcn.net Sun Mar 23 20:02:53 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14276 for Subject: Re: Guide Placement Elizabeth Burke wrote: Thank you for your suggestions -- they are quite helpful. Does anyone else have other thoughts re guide placement? I was hopingtoprompt some debate on this issue. Does the relative silence indicatethatit does not really matter where I place my guides? -- surely this cannotbetrue. Bill from Bangor. At 08:26 PM 3/22/97 -0800, you wrote:Elizabeth Burke wrote: Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on thetipsection of a two piece rod? "Close" being within one to one and one- halfinches from the ferrule station. If so, what are such drawbacks? Wayne'sbook indicates that the spacing should be extrapolated from theplacement ofthe top guide of the butt section of the rod. This makes sense,however, ifsuch spacing is important, I will be spending tomorrow cutting andrewrapping my guides, which would be unfortunate. My currentspacing is:guide one, five inches from the tip; guide two, six inches from guideone;all subsequent guides spaced one inch further than the last. I guessmy Also, assuming my spacing is faulty -- a strong likelihood -- cananyonesuggest an appropriate guide spacing for an eight foot, two piece, fiveweight (the plan was for a five weight -- we shall see) rod. Thanks from Bangor, Maine. Bill.This is from a novice (5 rods built). I just use the spacing chart thatis from Sage. I know, graphite, but I have made a lot of rods with thisspacing and they work just fine. I place a snake guide fairly close tothe ferrule most of the time. Sometimes this screws up the Sage chartand if this is the case the rule I use is to make sure that no matterwhat, the distance between guides gradually gets less as the roddiameter gets smaller.Usually I want at least a half inch difference andnot more that one to one and a half inches. These figures are on the tipsection. On the butt section usually my rods (so far) have only twoguides.I really doubt that you can hurt a rod too much by guide placement but IDO believe that the action can be influenced by guide placement. I usually tape the guides to the rod on a new taper. Then with a line Iam able to tell if the spacing of the guides goes along with the stresscurve built in to the taper. I then am able to adjust to see where theguides work out best. I have always take the rod out and cast it to see how it works. (be careful with your finish. from thezig@ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 23 20:34:20 1997 ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Guide Placement I have a Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/1 that has snake guides directlyabutting the ferrule on both the butt section and the tip. It isoriginal and seems to work. It is one of the nicest casting rods for aDT 4 that I own.z from russett@bcn.net Sun Mar 23 20:55:43 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA17742 for Subject: tapers Hi.Wanted to know if anyone here could supply me with the tapers for a Dickerson 7012 or the Payne Model 97 or 98. I've been following this forum for only a week and it seems that people are mostly interested in Blades. Does the discussion everget into Tapers? I,ve built several of Wayne's and a couple thatDigger gave me and then some that came out of the planeing form.Don Anderson, Daryll Whitehead and a couple modified for Garrisons book.I've even used Hexrod to design a couple of my own. Is there any place where I could get my hands on tapers? I can spendhours and hours just comparing where the differences are on each rod. Thanks .. Larry A week or so ago someone posted an address where I could see pastpostings. Lost it.. Help. from lblan@oeonline.com Sun Mar 23 21:21:50 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0w90JQ-0003BxC; Sun, 23 Mar 97 22:20 EST Subject: Re: tapers Look at Jerry's outstanding page, in the taper section. http://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.html ----------From: Larry & Jane Russett Subject: tapersDate: Sunday, March 23, 1997 4:51 PM Hi.Wanted to know if anyone here could supply me with the tapers for a Dickerson 7012 or the Payne Model 97 or 98. I've been following this forum for only a week and it seems that people are mostly interested in Blades. Does the discussion everget into Tapers? I,ve built several of Wayne's and a couple thatDigger gave me and then some that came out of the planeing form.Don Anderson, Daryll Whitehead and a couple modified for Garrisons book.I've even used Hexrod to design a couple of my own. Is there any place where I could get my hands on tapers? I can spendhours and hours just comparing where the differences are on each rod. Thanks .. Larry A week or so ago someone posted an address where I could see pastpostings. Lost it.. Help. from jsmm@interaccess.com Sun Mar 23 22:13:26 1997 mcfeely.interaccess.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id WAA12935 for Subject: Dipping I wanted to ask if anyone has used the method of putting a rod in a tube,filling the tube with varnish and then draining the tube via a valve? MikeLeitheiser mentioned this method to me and it sparked my interest as agoodway to control dust because the rod will dry in the tube after the varnishdrains? Does the varnish fill the guides? Is it better to use a PVC tube or acopper tube? Thanks, Matt Makowski from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Mar 23 23:58:58 1997 Subject: Re: Dipping Matt - I just finished building a dipping tube/drying cabinet, but it will bea week or two before I try it out. I borrowed ideas from various books andmade the apparatus for dual uses due to space limitations. In order to usethe tube, you must have enough room above to remove the rod section, so Ihadto make a hole in the garage ceiling. I built the cabinet to extend into theattic. Using closed eye screws at the top of the cabinet and along theside,I threaded some string attached to an old fly reel. I will be able to usethe reel to lower and raise the rod section from the varnish. Opposite thetube, I placed hooks to hang the rod sections after dipping. I usedplexiglass as a door allowing the cabinet can stay closed while dippinganddrying. The tube I used was 2" PVC X 56". I tested some varnish on asparesection of PVC and didn't seem to have any type reaction, so I assume PVCisok to use (books mention copper tubing). Kurt from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Mar 24 05:22:27 1997 LAA24678 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:22:11GMT Subject: Idyll/LeClair/Varnishing This is an invaluable forum. So much collective knowledge, and many goodfolks prepared to share selflessly. Here in Britain there's a certainamount of paranoid secrecy attached to rod building. Secret varnishformulas, secret varnishing techniques, secret tempering processes,secretsources of supplies. This forum is a breath of fresh-air. Very American. To all those who replied to previous posting ..... Thank's for the advice.I'll try the ammonia toning right away, and get in a supply of the PayneFormula blacking agent from David LeClair. Does anyone have his webaddress,fax, or email. (i) I'm looking for an American publication entitled: The Idyll of theSplit- Bamboo by George Parker Holden. I think it's pretty well known andregarded in 'The States.' I'm not concerned about the edition, provided the book is is reasonablecondition. It's the words I want, rather than the prestige of owning a 1stedition. Does anyone have a copy for sale or maybe for trade against another book. Ican possibly find a scarce British title to exchange. (ii) Varnishing. I brush on, then hand-spin the section through 180degrees every two minutes until the finish tacks off. At very least I reallymust make some sort of turning device, but I'm attracted to dipping. But.... apart from blowing air, how do you keep varnish from remaining (eveninthin layers) in the guides? A chum suggested fibre- glass releasing mouldagent to encourage the varnish to flake off after drying. In any event, mywife will probably vito the dipping tank through the living room ceiling. Dust - I struggle with this. Recently I've had some success in simplypolishing it out with 'T - Cut' car paint colour restorer. Any other sageadvice on this? John Cooper (England) from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 24 08:00:15 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA26023 +0000 Subject: Re: tapers Larry & Jane Russett wrote: Hi.Wanted to know if anyone here could supply me with the tapers fora Dickerson 7012 or the Payne Model 97 or 98. I've been following this forum for only a week and it seems thatpeople are mostly interested in Blades. Does the discussion everget into Tapers? I,ve built several of Wayne's and a couple thatDigger gave me and then some that came out of the planeing form.Don Anderson, Daryll Whitehead and a couple modified for Garrisons book.I've even used Hexrod to design a couple of my own. Is there any place where I could get my hands on tapers? I can spendhours and hours just comparing where the differences are on each rod. Thanks .. Larry A week or so ago someone posted an address where I could see pastpostings. Lost it.. Help. Also see www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shml Regards,Ed Estlow from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 24 08:02:51 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA27072 +0000 Subject: Re: tapers Larry & Jane Russett wrote: Hi.Wanted to know if anyone here could supply me with the tapers fora Dickerson 7012 or the Payne Model 97 or 98. I've been following this forum for only a week and it seems thatpeople are mostly interested in Blades. Does the discussion everget into Tapers? I,ve built several of Wayne's and a couple thatDigger gave me and then some that came out of the planeing form.Don Anderson, Daryll Whitehead and a couple modified for Garrisons book.I've even used Hexrod to design a couple of my own. Is there any place where I could get my hands on tapers? I can spendhours and hours just comparing where the differences are on each rod. Thanks .. Larry A week or so ago someone posted an address where I could see pastpostings. Lost it.. Help. Disregard my last, a minute ago. The correct address is: www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml Regards,Ed Estlow from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Mar 24 09:35:00 1997 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10033 for ; Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Jon Lintvet wrote: Perhaps the guys prefer the "what is the best string" type of listings,niceand cosy and the answer is easy? TerryI really did not want to get involved in this whole thing but Ithink I have something to legitimately say now. I have been onlywatching this serv for about 3 months now. (give or take) In thattime I have been shot down by you for asking questions that you feltwere apparently obvious. In fact, it was insulting to assume Idid not my research before asking. I am a beginner! That is a fact.I have bought books, loaned out books through the library, and doneas much research as possible. In my mind, this is a place to doresearch, at whatever level that is. If I want alternativeapproaches to simple solutions I think it is representative of whatis ideal. Individual thought and creativity.Personally, I have never seen Wayne solicit business but I could beincorrect. Maybe in my mind that is not the area of concern. Iwould hope that anyone new to this arena would not be shut off forasking simple questions. Some people....including myself....are atthe simple stage. Terry has offered be some great advice, as well as alot of others. I have saved messages containing what I feel isimportant information and am grateful for everyone's help. So couldwe please get off the group think gang bashing. Jon LintvetIthaca CollegeI could not agree with Jon more. This is not a place to bash others, itis a place to gather information and to further the art of rodbuilding. I thought that the purpose of this list was to promote and encourage ALLbuilders, not just the experienced. If all experienced builders"hoarded" all of their knowledge, where would the art of rodbuilding endup?-- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Todd Talsma +Sligh Furniture Company+Phone:616-394- 0560++Sr. Systems Analyst+1201 Industrial Avenue +Fax: 616-392- 9495++++++++++++++++++++++Holland MI 49423 ++++++++++++++++++++ from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Mar 24 10:03:57 1997 12:03:22 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: Dipping Matt, Daryll H outlined how he does that, I draw ter rod out of the tube in a"clean" environment and they look great. JB At 10:14 PM 23/03/97 -0600, you wrote:I wanted to ask if anyone has used the method of putting a rod in a tube,filling the tube with varnish and then draining the tube via a valve? MikeLeitheiser mentioned this method to me and it sparked my interest as agoodway to control dust because the rod will dry in the tube after the varnishdrains? Does the varnish fill the guides? Is it better to use a PVC tube or acopper tube? Thanks, Matt Makowski from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Mar 24 10:19:17 1997 12:18:36 -0400 (AST) Subject: Re: Idyll/LeClair/Varnishing Greetings from the real Colonies (Canada), we still feature the agelessQueen on all our coins, not sure why though. Hey, how do you rate MrMajorschances? There are many rodmakers who don't like the look of dipping the entire rodw/guides installed. However you can dip the rod (three coats) then installthe guides and with a simple turning device, coat the windings afterdipping. I dip the completed rod, and draw it out in a plastic "enclosure"which I spray down with water, this causes tremendous static and I havenofinish problems. jb Good Luck At 11:22 AM 24/03/97 GMT, you wrote:This is an invaluable forum. So much collective knowledge, and many goodfolks prepared to share selflessly. Here in Britain there's a certainamount of paranoid secrecy attached to rod building. Secret varnishformulas, secret varnishing techniques, secret tempering processes,secretsources of supplies. This forum is a breath of fresh-air. Very American. To all those who replied to previous posting ..... Thank's for the advice.I'll try the ammonia toning right away, and get in a supply of the PayneFormula blacking agent from David LeClair. Does anyone have his webaddress,fax, or email. (i) I'm looking for an American publication entitled: The Idyll of theSplit- Bamboo by George Parker Holden. I think it's pretty well known andregarded in 'The States.' I'm not concerned about the edition, provided the book is is reasonablecondition. It's the words I want, rather than the prestige of owning a 1stedition. Does anyone have a copy for sale or maybe for trade against another book.Ican possibly find a scarce British title to exchange. (ii) Varnishing. I brush on, then hand-spin the section through 180degrees every two minutes until the finish tacks off. At very least Ireallymust make some sort of turning device, but I'm attracted to dipping. But.... apart from blowing air, how do you keep varnish from remaining (eveninthin layers) in the guides? A chum suggested fibre- glass releasing mouldagent to encourage the varnish to flake off after drying. In any event, mywife will probably vito the dipping tank through the living room ceiling. Dust - I struggle with this. Recently I've had some success in simplypolishing it out with 'T - Cut' car paint colour restorer. Any other sageadvice on this? John Cooper (England) from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Mon Mar 24 10:52:21 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Flaming totches This one may be for Wayne (thanks for a marvellous book and for all the selfless advice you provide on this great forum). I tried to find a Burnzomatic Surefire T-550 propane torch, the one you mentioned in your book, for flaming cane, but no luck at ,the local Home Depot, which has a broad selection of Burnzomatic products. Are there any alternatives you suggest? I have a small Burnzomatic propane torch, butit delivers a pointed flame, which seems inappropriate. BTW, on the subject of plane blades, I followed Ron Hock's sharpening procedure in the archives and it really works. 0.002" shavings are easy to produce, and Japanese water stones really deliver a sharp edge if youfollow Mr. Hock's instructions; I can confirm that shaving hairs off the back of one's hand is possible! My experience is with an inexpensive Buck Brothers blade - probably bottom-of-the-line as quality of steel goes. Can't wait ThomasP@nacm.com from ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com Mon Mar 24 11:01:20 1997 SVR4) PST Subject: Titebond - Darryl? Darryl Hayashida - good to see you on the list; I learned a lot from the archives and from your postings in particular. Were you the person experimenting with Titebond II adhesive? Anyfurther feedback 2 years down the road? Thanks, ThomasP@nacm.com from cparham@crocker.com Mon Mar 24 11:55:28 1997 rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.5/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA20958 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:53:54 GMT Subject: Re: Flaming totches Thomas Pindelski wrote: This one may be for Wayne (thanks for a marvellous book and for all theselfless advice you provide on this great forum). I tried to find a Burnzomatic Surefire T-550 propane torch, the one youmentioned in your book, for flaming cane, but no luck at ,the local HomeDepot, which has a broad selection of Burnzomatic products. Are thereanyalternatives you suggest? I have a small Burnzomatic propane torch, butitdelivers a pointed flame, which seems inappropriate. BTW, on the subject of plane blades, I followed Ron Hock's sharpeningprocedure in the archives and it really works. 0.002" shavings are easytoproduce, and Japanese water stones really deliver a sharp edge if youfollowMr. Hock's instructions; I can confirm that shaving hairs off the back ofone's hand is possible! My experience is with an inexpensive BuckBrothersblade - probably bottom-of-the-line as quality of steel goes. Can't wait ThomasP@nacm.com seen them before? from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Mar 24 12:00:29 1997 with ESMTP id LAA28536 for ; Mon, 24 Mar robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA22489 for dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.3) with SMTP id JERJCXBI; Mon,24 Mar 1997 11:59:48 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: Heat Guns All; I finally got my heat gun and frugality won over--I got the cheapest oneavailable. It's an EasyPower, about $30 instead of $100+. The only problemisthat it only has two temp settings, 1000 and 640. I know that 550 is whatWaynerecommends, but will 640 do the job in slightly less time withoutdamaging thenode area? Jerry, I tried it on a couple of nodes on the junk strips you gaveme and it seemed to work okay, though I'm not sure I softened it enough. Ifittakes 1 1/2 to 2 minutes at 550 degrees, how long at 640? 1 to 1 1/2 minI'mguessing? For me the question is, will the node area get damaged by Xdegreesover 550 and/or Y amount of time over the gun? Don from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Mar 24 12:06:14 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA18974 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:28:40 -0500 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA05460 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:09:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------37F2517B8C3 Elizabeth Burke wrote: Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on the tipsection of a two piece rod? "Close" being within one to one and one- halfinches from the ferrule station. If so, what are such drawbacks? Wayne'sbook indicates that the spacing should be extrapolated from theplacement ofthe top guide of the butt section of the rod. This makes sense, however,ifsuch spacing is important, I will be spending tomorrow cutting andrewrapping my guides, which would be unfortunate. My current spacingis:guide one, five inches from the tip; guide two, six inches from guide one;all subsequent guides spaced one inch further than the last. I guess my Also, assuming my spacing is faulty -- a strong likelihood -- can anyonesuggest an appropriate guide spacing for an eight foot, two piece, fiveweight (the plan was for a five weight -- we shall see) rod. Thanks from Bangor, Maine. Bill. Bill, I always try to put a guide at the ferrule if I can, there is morestress on the cane at this point and I feel that placing a guide herereinforces that spot. I've attached a picture of how I wrap theguide/ferrule on some of my rods. Notice the "under wrap" on the ferruleside of the guide. I don't always do the "under wrap" but I do try toplace the guide as shown if I can. As for guide placemant, I will typicly put a guide as close as 4" fromthe tip of the rod and progressivly increase the spacing by 5/8". ThenI'll adjust it until I'm happy with it. I would use 9 guides on a 8'rod. Good luck. today. The Hock blades are money will invested for me. Just my 2 cents.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc --------------37F2517B8C3 ad1ED7526927E6"; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac- creator="3F3F3F3F";name="Cu2.JPEG" ------------ad1ED7526927E6 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 ------------ad1ED7526927E6-- --------------37F2517B8C3-- from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Mon Mar 24 12:08:56 1997 2.0/2.12um) id KAA000.51; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:06:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Hardys Antique Rod Good morning, Ralph: Jim Schaaf's address: P. O. Box 535Concord, CA 94521 Best to you in beautiful Idaho. Rich Brown from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Mar 24 13:33:22 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Guns Don -The Easy Power works great on speed or heat # 2 - I bought one in DCthiswinter and the only comment is to pry the discharge open a bit (to 3/8") -Afew weeks ago I saw that Truevalue had the heat gun on sale for $21.95thediffuser kit was $14.95.The amount of time needed to soften the bamboo is dependent on thethickness - the key is when the strip when flexed becomes 'noodley' and isslow to recover when flexed. What is needed is that the bamboo is softenoughso that when it is vised that both jaws of the vise come into contact withthe bamboo the entire width of both jaws. Here practice with a scrap stripuntil you get comfortable with the feel.Wayne from richjez@wwa.com Mon Mar 24 13:47:12 1997 (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0w9Fhv-0001WWC; Mon, 24 Mar 97 13:47 CST Subject: Re: Guide Placement Your attachment came through as cu2.jpe when decoded and psp pro willnotopen it. If it is renamed cu2.jpg it is viewable.Rich Bill, I always try to put a guide at the ferrule if I can, there is morestress on the cane at this point and I feel that placing a guide herereinforces that spot. I've attached a picture of how I wrap theguide/ferrule on some of my rods. Notice the "under wrap" on the ferruleside of the guide. I don't always do the "under wrap" but I do try toplace the guide as shown if I can. As for guide placemant, I will typicly put a guide as close as 4" fromthe tip of the rod and progressivly increase the spacing by 5/8". ThenI'll adjust it until I'm happy with it. I would use 9 guides on a 8'rod. Good luck. today. The Hock blades are money will invested for me. Just my 2 cents.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc Attachment Converted: c:\eudora\attach\Cu2.JPEG *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /|| /___/__||____________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > / \ > from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Mar 24 14:00:47 1997 Subject: Re: Flaming totches Tom -The self igniting torches have changed numbers quite a bit over thatpast years. I stopped at Builders Square and took a look. The one I saw wasaSurefire # 655 (Surefire is a Trade name of Bernzmatic) - For those nothaving a Builder's Square - WW Grainger has them as well their stock #5W956which has a price of $55.45.The # 550 I had is in Tennesse flaming bamboo now, personally I use aTurbo Torch unit which has quick change tips - it attaches to the larger lpgas cylinders. I use it to soldier copper pipes with as will - This unitcosts about $130.00 without the cylinder cost. Wayne from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Mar 24 14:10:35 1997 Subject: Re: Titebond - Darryl? In a message dated 97-03-24 12:43:17 EST, you write: Titebond II still going strong. No failures, nothing going wrong. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Mar 24 14:11:20 1997 Subject: Re: Dipping In a message dated 97-03-23 23:40:06 EST, you write: Hi,I'm sort of the "inventor" of the drain the tube dipping method. At leastI was the first to come up with it and post it in this list. The method works great for all the reasons you have stated. I use a pvc pipebecause there is always a layer of varnish left on the inside of thepipe, and when it builds up too much, just replace the pipe. Costa couple of bucks. My original post is in the archives, you can getto them through Jerry Fosters web page. The address was just postedtoday in another message. You have to use a thinned varnish, not straight out of the can, and thenthe varnish doesn't hang up in the guides. Personally I varnish the blankbefore I put on the guides and then wrap over the varnish but some folksdon't like the way that looks. The biggest advantages to this method are not having to drill a hole inyour ceiling, and no dust in the tube as the varnish hardens. The disadvantages are it's difficult to see if indeed there is varnish hanging up in the guides, and if you are not careful about covering your varnish after it has drained and adding thinner, your varnish will gel or "skinover". I came up with this idea as a "poor mans" dipping tube. If you have thespace and the funds to go with the traditional method with the steppermotors and all, then that's probably a better way to go. Darryl Hayashida P.S. make sure you clean the valve before the varnish hardens. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 15:36:28 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:41:55 EDT Subject: Re: Dipping The tube I used was 2" PVC X 56". I tested some varnish on a sparesection of PVC and didn't seem to have any type reaction, so I assumePVC isok to use (books mention copper tubing). I believe the reason books talk about copper vs. pvc is because plastics like pvc attract dust. The Plexiglass door will as well, and people use copper just to try and keep the dust away from the varnish. Jon from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 15:36:34 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:42:05 EDT Subject: Re: Dipping That sounds like a great idea, but the only thing I can think of that wouldn't work is you cannot let the varnish drip from the wraps or what not. Slowing the withdrawal in some spots. However if the rod was varnished before wraps were put on. I am a newbie so it was just a thought. What is the reasoning for finishing the rods with the wraps on the rod vs. not on the rods? Jon On 23 Mar 97 at 22:14, Matt and Julie wrote: I wanted to ask if anyone has used the method of putting a rod in a tube,filling the tube with varnish and then draining the tube via a valve? MikeLeitheiser mentioned this method to me and it sparked my interest as agoodway to control dust because the rod will dry in the tube after the varnishdrains? Does the varnish fill the guides? Is it better to use a PVC tube or acopper tube? Thanks, Matt Makowski from plipton@sunvalley.net Mon Mar 24 16:01:02 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA357 0700 Subject: Re: Please Read WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: I was talking with Luis Marden this evening - He has had alingeringcold and his allergies are bothering him and he has to go into thehospital about it Ithought that it might be nice of the group to send him a note orratherseveral note to help cheer him up. Luis has always had a love forbamboo flyrods and a friendship for those that make them. And I'm sure that hewould beencouraged hearing from us. Now several of you have met and knowLuis fromthe many gatherings that he has attended. Shortly many more will beable toread his words - his book "The Angler's Bamboo" will be on thestreet is justa few weeks.What I had in mind was to collect the notes here and then sendthem as a'get well' to him so that he could read them during his down time. hearing from you as well - perhaps describing your stage of rod making andwhat youhope the future will hold. I would appreciate the help Wayne Wayne - Please forward to Luis. Dear Luis: We met last fall in Grayling at Waynes' workshop. I enjoyed those latenight Chinese dinners with you. You are a great story teller and Iconfess to having repeated a few of your tales with great enthusiasm butvery little credit to you. You wore me out at the end of some of thosedays. How can you be laid up in a hospital's bed? This note a few days late in getting to you. It is that time of year toplay with stealhead up on the Salmon River north of Stanley, Idaho. Ispent last week there stalking them. It is a tough stretch water beacuseaccess is limited and there are not a lot of steelhead. We drive alongthe road and stop at likely pullouts on the side. You hike down and look I went with a friend who knows the water from 20 years of fishing on it.We would grab hands and wade out into some water that waist high andfast. The grass may be greener on the other side but the fish are notalways holding there. The days beat me up and put me away wet. There isa saving grace to the location. There are some hot springs there. Atnight, we would soak in the water (about 100 degrees) and look out onthe snow that is starting to run off the Sawtooths. This is pretty muchthe end of fishing here. The season closes at the end of the month untilafter Memorial Day. The Big Wood is at 180 cubic feet a second thisweek. They project flows of 6000 cfs when the thaw gets going on a snowpack 200% of normal. So...my guess is maybe August or even Septemberbefore there is a dry fly hatch in the streams. What are your fishing plans for this summer, Luis? Congratulations onyour new book coming out. I have ordered my copy! Take care, I hope tosee you on the water. Regards, Phil ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 16:06:59 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:12:30 EDT Subject: Re: Heat Guns Is it relevant how long it takes for the strips to get noodely. On a high setting I feel the strip noodle but not at the node and there is heavy browning of the pith. On a low setting it takes longer to get the noodle felling and don't know if I can feel any difference. Jon The amount of time needed to soften the bamboo is dependent on thethickness - the key is when the strip when flexed becomes 'noodley' andisslow to recover when flexed. What is needed is that the bamboo is softenoughso that when it is vised that both jaws of the vise come into contactwiththe bamboo the entire width of both jaws. Here practice with a scrapstripuntil you get comfortable with the feel.Wayne from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 16:07:20 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:12:33 EDT Subject: Re: Flaming totches Where can you pick up the lines that run form the gas unit to the torch? Jon I have only seen complete kits. On 24 Mar 97 at 15:00, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Tom -The self igniting torches have changed numbers quite a bit over thatpast years. I stopped at Builders Square and took a look. The one I sawwas aSurefire # 655 (Surefire is a Trade name of Bernzmatic) - For those nothaving a Builder's Square - WW Grainger has them as well their stock #5W956which has a price of $55.45.The # 550 I had is in Tennesse flaming bamboo now, personally I useaTurbo Torch unit which has quick change tips - it attaches to the largerlpgas cylinders. I use it to soldier copper pipes with as will - This unitcosts about $130.00 without the cylinder cost. Wayne from bootstrap@earthlink.net Mon Mar 24 16:19:00 1997 Subject: Beta test of possible new product Hi all. I've just completed a gadget. I'll send one free to the first tenfolks who are willing to pay the shipping on it. Shipping is about $5.00,according to my post office buddy, so that's what I want out of it. They'rejust prototypes, so I don't know what they will cost when (if) produced inquantity.What is it? I call it a "node buster." It is designed to break throughthe internal dams in the culm before drying, in an effort to induce drying from the inside as well as outside. That way one doesn't have to pre-splitthe culm before storing away in the basement.I conceived the need for it when I wanted to get some very dry, largediameter (3-4 in.) culms without splits. The first model didn't work, butI think the present variation does work, and I'm willing to send them N/Cto any builders who will test and report. I'm out of cane, so I can't testit here in Colorado right now, and I'd like to know how it will work in thehands of someone other than myself. BTW, you can make your own if youwish. If you want a drawing, send a SASE to the address below.It ought to -it is designed to- break out the internal dams in any culmlarger than about an inch and a quarter. If you're a rodmaker, and havesome fresh cane on hand or on order that hasn't started to split yet, andyou are interested, call me at (303)745-1353, and we can talk, or sendemail.Guys overseas will have to wait until it's tested here in the colony, anddebugged, then I'll make a similar (cheap) offer for them. I don't wantanyone to feel discriminated against. Frank -end a sentence with apreposition- Armbruster in colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Mar 24 17:51:25 1997 SAA18658 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:57:15-0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement Jonathan The resolution on the jpeg wasn't good enough for me to seeif you seperated the wraps of the guide and the ferrule. it looked asone continious wrap. I have seen two schools of thought here - onecontigious or wrap as I perfer when spacing permits I personally rather make themtwo seperate wraps seperated by some space (1/2 inch) that allows repair of theferrule w/o tamperingwith the guide wraps. - Comment? Regards Chris from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Mar 24 17:53:20 1997 Subject: Re: Hardys Antique Rod At 10:04 AM 3/24/97 -0800, you wrote:Good morning, Ralph: Jim Schaaf's address: P. O. Box 535Concord, CA 94521 Best to you in beautiful Idaho. Rich Brown Many thanks Rich. I guess I might have spent a MONTH SEARCHING, butthanksto you I won't have to. Ralph from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 24 19:11:11 1997 Subject: Re: Flaming totches Old Buck Bos. stuff is pretty good. I have several 50 + year old BuckBros. Chisels that I love. from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 24 19:14:41 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Placement Jon -How did you do that underwrap? I like the look, is there any realstructural benefit? from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Mar 24 19:15:26 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-20 09:25:47 EST, you write: My oh my, you bamboofellows are quick tempered! JerryYou gereralize.RT from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Mar 24 19:15:35 1997 Subject: Re: stripper guides In a message dated 97-03-20 10:14:58 EST, you write: To all,I make my rods to cast and fish with. The use of small guides tends(imho)to cut down on the shooting ability of the rod. Only if someone wants abonafide restoration would I go to the smaller guides. On the conversesideI've had some "purists" criticize my rods because of the guide size (theyprobably weren't going to buy anyway). Ya pays yer money and takes yerchoice.Hank. Hank - Wots small and wots large? I use # 8 and # 10 Carbaloy. #10 justlooks oversized on a small rod, and anything bigger on larger rods seemsexcessive. There, I did it, brought up an old thread, ie., the form/functionthing.Regards,RTyree from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 24 19:30:47 1997 Subject: Everdur Bronze hardware Hi Y'all, Does anyone have experience using bronze hardware/jewelry rather thannickle silver? I prefer the color of aged bronze, but am wonderingabout tarnishing and hardness compered to n/s.Thanks for any insights. Brian from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Mar 24 19:36:58 1997 Subject: Resrcinol glue lines Don Anderson mentions that resorcinol glue lines can be unsightly, butcan also add to the beauty of a fine cane rod. I have also been readingthat resorcinol is probably the best over-all glue from a performanceand tried-and-true point of view.I want to use this on my first rod. Does anyone have a source, and howquick do you need to work?Thanks!Brian from santiago@ricochet.net Mon Mar 24 19:51:07 1997 Subject: Re: Beta test of possible new product Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Hi all. I've just completed a gadget. I'll send one free to the first tenfolks who are willing to pay the shipping on it. Shipping is about $5.00,according to my post office buddy, so that's what I want out of it.They'rejust prototypes, so I don't know what they will cost when (if) producedinquantity.What is it? I call it a "node buster." It is designed to break throughthe internal dams in the culm before drying, in an effort to induce drying from the inside as well as outside. That way one doesn't have to pre-splitthe culm before storing away in the basement.I conceived the need for it when I wanted to get some very dry, largediameter (3-4 in.) culms without splits. The first model didn't work, butI think the present variation does work, and I'm willing to send them N/Cto any builders who will test and report. I'm out of cane, so I can't testit here in Colorado right now, and I'd like to know how it will work in thehands of someone other than myself. BTW, you can make your own if youwish. If you want a drawing, send a SASE to the address below.It ought to -it is designed to- break out the internal dams in any culmlarger than about an inch and a quarter. If you're a rodmaker, and havesome fresh cane on hand or on order that hasn't started to split yet, andyou are interested, call me at (303)745-1353, and we can talk, or sendemail.Guys overseas will have to wait until it's tested here in the colony, anddebugged, then I'll make a similar (cheap) offer for them. I don't wantanyone to feel discriminated against. Frank -end a sentence with apreposition- Armbruster in colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward i will give it a try. i have 60 clums ready for testing. email me directly for my address and phone thanks, leo santiago@ricochet.net from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Mar 24 20:09:37 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA11535 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:32:18 -0500 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA10951 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:13:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement Chris Bogart wrote: Jonathan The resolution on the jpeg wasn't good enough for me to seeif you seperated the wraps of the guide and the ferrule. it looked asone continious wrap. I have seen two schools of thought here - onecontigiousor wrap as I perfer when spacing permits I personally rather make themtwo seperatewraps seperated by some space (1/2 inch) that allows repair of theferrule w/o tamperingwith the guide wraps. - Comment? Regards Chris Chris, I usually make it a continious wrap. Just my custom I guress, butif you are doing it to reinforce the ferrule transition I feel acontinious wrap will do a better job. http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc/Cu2.JPEG -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Mar 24 20:15:30 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA11837 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:38:08 -0500 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA11409 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:19:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement brian & michelle creek wrote: Jon -How did you do that underwrap? I like the look, is there any realstructural benefit? Brian, the underwrap is done by wrapping the underwrap first thenplacing the guide over it and wrapping down the guide. A little tricky,but if you like the look it's worth the effort. Is there a structuralbenefet to the extra 1/8" of wrap? I think that there is some, but not awhole lot.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain.Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together, thefly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from jonrc@atlantic.net Mon Mar 24 20:19:44 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA12104 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:42:24 -0500 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA11825 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:23:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Beta test of possible new product Hi Frank, I'd love to try your Node Buster-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 337041-800-882-5432 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from DANNUGENT@aol.com Mon Mar 24 21:15:31 1997 Subject: Re: Dipping WHOA!!My brain is smoking now.Was looking to build one to Wayne's book but had a problem.The only 12" pvc tube i could find was along the interstate.My thought was that it could cost more than the $38 Wayne spent.So needless to say still looking at ideas.This list is great and can't wait to help.Hay don't mined me i know im not wright thats wy i am here!THANKSDAN from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Mar 24 21:31:34 1997 Subject: Re: Everdur Bronze hardware At 08:37 PM 3/24/97 -0500, you wrote:Hi Y'all, Does anyone have experience using bronze hardware/jewelry rather thannickle silver? I prefer the color of aged bronze, but am wonderingabout tarnishing and hardness compered to n/s.Thanks for any insights. Brian Brian Winston has used bronze for years. I did a bit of research a long time asgoand found that I could get a bronze alloy that had about the samemetallurigical properties as NS.I made a number of ferrules with this alloy and they have stood up well.There is a darkening with time, but a very light polish restores thebrightness. I don't mind the darkening. Rather like it in fact. I willsee if I can find the alloy and post it, although I may no longer have it.It is expensive, as I remember 12-15 years ago, 3/8" solid rod was about$1.00 an inch. Ralph Moon from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Mar 24 21:34:30 1997 Subject: Re: Resrcinol glue lines At 08:43 PM 3/24/97 -0500, you wrote:Don Anderson mentions that resorcinol glue lines can be unsightly, butcan also add to the beauty of a fine cane rod. I have also been readingthat resorcinol is probably the best over- all glue from a performanceand tried-and-true point of view.I want to use this on my first rod. Does anyone have a source, and howquick do you need to work?Thanks!Brian BrianMost good building supply stores carry it. It will tack up in about 15minutes. Should be enough time to glue a section. Take it from me it isthe very best adhesive for cane I have ever used, but you have to like theeffect, and you must plane extremely accuratelyRalph from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 21:43:30 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:48:58 EDT Subject: Plane problem Ok...I am going to try and explain this but I don't know if it is possible or I will be very clear. So I apologize if I am not understood. I have a stanley plane. I levelled it out with a flat surface and sandpaper like Wayne's book says. It seems pretty straight forward to me. After using the plane for several strips I noticed something peculiar.Looking at the bottom of the plane with the throat at the top look at your plane. back the blade out and see where it enters the body of the plane. The thickness of foot of the plane is greater on the left side. there is more metal to the foot of the plane on the left than right. So as a result the blade comes out deeper on the right side when looking at the bottom. I know the plane has a lateral adjustment...to square the blade with the throat opening but when it is put square with the opening I can take a cut with the left side(now the plane is actually turned right side up to plane the strip)and nothing is removed on the right side. I thought this wouldn't be a problem as long as the cut the depth of the cut right in the center and then kept the strip in the center of the plane....but I will shoot myself down and say that I am a beginner and cannot keep the strip in the center of the plane the whole time. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I am a a loss. The other thing is I seem to always be sharpening. How can you tell when it is the time to stop and sharpen? I am using an off the stone sharpening guide with a water stone...maybe I am not sharpening the blade to a fine enough point. "Lost" Jon from DANNUGENT@aol.com Mon Mar 24 21:48:10 1997 Subject: Net Mark HuffCan't seem to send you mail call me tuesday eve.(717)266- 6024DAN from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 21:48:19 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:53:49 EDT Subject: The underwraps.... So let me see if I understand this right. The ferrule is mounted on the section. Then from where the tabs end to 1/8 past the foot of the planned guide an underwrap is put in place. Then the ferrule is wrapped onto the section over the underwrap and the one foot of the guide is wrapped over the underwrap. Just trying to make sure i understand. I apologize if I am stating something obvious. Jon from rbrown@infocom.net Mon Mar 24 21:55:11 1997 login1.infocom.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA25000 for; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:23:42 -0600 Subject: Re: tapers "www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml" I'm having a problem with thisaddress. The server tells me that this file is not no that server! Mayvbe I've done something wromg. Help me Please!!! Rob from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Mar 24 22:10:53 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:52:05 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Idyll/LeClair/Varnishing /*********** Lots choped out up to this point**********************/ (ii) Varnishing. I brush on, then hand-spin the section through 180degrees every two minutes until the finish tacks off. At very least Ireallymust make some sort of turning device, but I'm attracted to dipping. But.... apart from blowing air, how do you keep varnish from remaining (eveninthin layers) in the guides? A chum suggested fibre- glass releasing mouldagent to encourage the varnish to flake off after drying. In any event, mywife will probably vito the dipping tank through the living room ceiling. See if there is somewhere you bury the bottom of the dipping tank, possibly a garden shed? That way you'll only need 7-8 feet above ground level. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from mrj@seanet.com Mon Mar 24 23:02:28 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20875 for Subject: Re: Beta test of possible new product Franz O. Armbruster wrote: Hi all. I've just completed a gadget. I'll send one free to the first tenfolks who are willing to pay the shipping on it. Shipping is about $5.00,according to my post office buddy, so that's what I want out of it.They'rejust prototypes, so I don't know what they will cost when (if) producedinquantity.What is it? I call it a "node buster." It is designed to break throughthe internal dams in the culm before drying, in an effort to induce drying from the inside as well as outside. That way one doesn't have to pre-splitthe culm before storing away in the basement.I conceived the need for it when I wanted to get some very dry, largediameter (3-4 in.) culms without splits. The first model didn't work, butI think the present variation does work, and I'm willing to send them N/Cto any builders who will test and report. I'm out of cane, so I can't testit here in Colorado right now, and I'd like to know how it will work in thehands of someone other than myself. BTW, you can make your own if youwish. If you want a drawing, send a SASE to the address below.It ought to -it is designed to- break out the internal dams in any culmlarger than about an inch and a quarter. If you're a rod maker, and havesome fresh cane on hand or on order that hasn't started to split yet, andyou are interested, call me at (303)745-1353, and we can talk, or sendemail.Guys overseas will have to wait until it's tested here in the colony, anddebugged, then I'll make a similar (cheap) offer for them. I don't wantanyone to feel discriminated against. Frank -end a sentence with apreposition- Armbruster in colorado .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward Frank,A friend of mine named Jack Byrd, tried knocking all the dams out in aneffort to alleviate the splitting of the drying culm. His test, whichwas on only one piece was unsuccessful. The culm split just the same asif the dams had not been removed. He had it drying in a cool eventempature basement. All my bamboo is split now so I can't help you inyour test but I awaite the results. from mrj@seanet.com Mon Mar 24 23:10:01 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21034 for Subject: Re: Plane problem Jon Lintvet wrote: Ok...I am going to try and explain this but I don't know if it ispossible or I will be very clear. So I apologize if I am notunderstood. I have a stanley plane. I levelled it out with a flatsurface and sandpaper like Wayne's book says. It seems prettystraight forward to me. After using the plane for several strips Inoticed something peculiar.Looking at the bottom of the plane with the throat at the top lookat your plane. back the blade out and see where it enters the bodyof the plane. The thickness of foot of the plane is greater on theleft side. there is more metal to the foot of the plane on the leftthan right. So as a result the blade comes out deeper on the rightside when looking at the bottom. I know the plane has a lateraladjustment...to square the blade with the throat opening but when itis put square with the opening I can take a cut with the leftside(now the plane is actually turned right side up to plane thestrip)and nothing is removed on the right side. I thought thiswouldn't be a problem as long as the cut the depth of the cut rightin the center and then kept the strip in the center of theplane....but I will shoot myself down and say that I am a beginnerand cannot keep the strip in the center of the plane the whole time.Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I am a a loss.The other thing is I seem to always be sharpening. How can you tellwhen it is the time to stop and sharpen? I am using an off the stonesharpening guide with a water stone...maybe I am not sharpening theblade to a fine enough point. "Lost" JonWhat I do is to ignore the fact that the blade may not lookperpendicular with the opening. When you adjust the blace, hold it up tothe light and bring out the blade and use the side adjustment to get iteven on both sides. Eyeball should be good enough. When I sharpen theblade is just a practice sort of thing. When it gets hard to plane, stopand sharpen. The difference should be noticable. If it isn't it probablydidn't need sharpening or maybe it wasn't sharp in the first place (G). An opinion from a novice with 5 rods (working on his 6th.) under hisbelt and still learning. from mrj@seanet.com Mon Mar 24 23:14:59 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21133 for Subject: Re: tapers Robbie Brown wrote: "www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml" I'm having a problem with thisaddress. The server tells me that this file is not no that server!Mayvbe I've done something wromg. Help me Please!!! RobI got the same message " file not found on this server" from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Mar 24 23:54:03 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:59:35 EDT Subject: Re: tapers "www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml" I'm having a problem with this One thing wrong I can see ^^^^^^^^ it should be .html not .shtml Jon from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 25 02:39:32 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:39:21 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Idyll/LeClair/Varnishing On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, James Bond wrote: Greetings from the real Colonies (Canada), we still feature the agelessQueen on all our coins, not sure why though. Hey, how do you rate MrMajorschances? What do you mean the *real* colonies? We not only have the queen oncoins and stamps but also the *Union Jack* on our flag. Who is this queen person and what does she want? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 25 02:45:53 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:45:44 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Resrcinol glue lines On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Ralph W. Moon wrote: At 08:43 PM 3/24/97 -0500, you wrote:Don Anderson mentions that resorcinol glue lines can be unsightly, butcan also add to the beauty of a fine cane rod. I have also been readingthat resorcinol is probably the best over- all glue from a performanceand tried-and-true point of view.I want to use this on my first rod. Does anyone have a source, and howquick do you need to work?Thanks!Brian BrianMost good building supply stores carry it. It will tack up in about 15minutes. Should be enough time to glue a section. Take it from me it isthe very best adhesive for cane I have ever used, but you have to like theeffect, and you must plane extremely accuratelyRalph What Ralph says is correct. Plane accurately as you'll see the glueline which is nice if neat but a bit ragged looking if rough. It wont fill gaps at all.Plain "monasticaly simple" hardware and blackened guides go best with resorcinol I think. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 25 02:56:13 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:56:05 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Everdur Bronze hardware On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Ralph W. Moon wrote: At 08:37 PM 3/24/97 -0500, you wrote:Hi Y'all, Does anyone have experience using bronze hardware/jewelry rather thannickle silver? I prefer the color of aged bronze, but am wonderingabout tarnishing and hardness compered to n/s.Thanks for any insights. Brian Brian Winston has used bronze for years. I did a bit of research a long timeasgoand found that I could get a bronze alloy that had about the samemetallurigical properties as NS.I made a number of ferrules with this alloy and they have stood up well.There is a darkening with time, but a very light polish restores thebrightness. I don't mind the darkening. Rather like it in fact. I willsee if I can find the alloy and post it, although I may no longer have it.It is expensive, as I remember 12-15 years ago, 3/8" solid rod was about$1.00 an inch. Ralph Moon Phosphor Bronze has a reddish tinge which looks very nice on a cane rod.This alloy is used as prop shafts for boats so isn't too hard to come by.Silicon Bronze is also another good looking alloy but is possibly more expensive and may be harder to get. Also prob harder to turn. from what I understand NS is a bronze so the weight will be about thesame. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from sleach@plessey.co.za Tue Mar 25 03:05:06 1997 10:11:14 +0200 via smap (V3.1) 25 Mar 97 11:08:47 GMT+0200 GMT+0200 Subject: Plane Blade Angle I am about to "retire" (or is it terminate with extreme prejudice??) my block plane (made in some un-named South American county) andbuy one that is capable of the basic functions needed for rodbuilding. I notice that the FAQ and most of the correspondence refers to theStanley 9 1/2 (Product No. 1-12-020) as the preferred tool forfinishing (with or without a Hock blade ?) This plane has a 21 degblade angle. One of the other planes in the Stanley range (1-12-060)has a 13 1/2 deg blade angle and my local merchant feels that theshallower angle would be more suitable for my purpose. This opinion may have some thing to do with the fact that he does notnormally stock the 9 1/2 but his advice is normally reliable. Can anyone give me some advice on which I should buy. Steve Leach from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 25 03:08:44 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:08:35 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Plane problem On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Jon Lintvet wrote: Ok...I am going to try and explain this but I don't know if it is possible or I will be very clear. So I apologize if I am not understood. I have a stanley plane. I levelled it out with a flat surface and sandpaper like Wayne's book says. It seems pretty straight forward to me. After using the plane for several strips I noticed something peculiar.Looking at the bottom of the plane with the throat at the top look at your plane. back the blade out and see where it enters the body of the plane. The thickness of foot of the plane is greater on the left side. there is more metal to the foot of the plane on the left than right. So as a result the blade comes out deeper on the right side when looking at the bottom. I know the plane has a lateral adjustment...to square the blade with the throat opening but when it is put square with the opening I can take a cut with the left side(now the plane is actually turned right side up to plane the strip)and nothing is removed on the right side. I thought this wouldn't be a problem as long as the cut the depth of the cut right in the center and then kept the strip in the center of the plane....but I will shoot myself down and say that I am a beginner and cannot keep the strip in the center of the plane the whole time. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I am a a loss. The other thing is I seem to always be sharpening. How can you tell when it is the time to stop and sharpen? I am using an off the stone sharpening guide with a water stone...maybe I am not sharpening the blade to a fine enough point. "Lost" Jon If you have a plane without an adjustable throat, don't take anymore off the sole or you'll widen the throat too much to be of any use. If the throat is adjustable you may need to take more metal off to square things up. Before doing that though find an accurare machinists square and take a look at the sole. If the sole is ok, you may have sharpened the iron (blade) at an angle which is easy to do, especially if using a waterstone as these are very agresive. Again get that machinist square and see. If you're sharpening continualy, (I'm cringing as I write this) you may like to try a Hock iron. Possibly it's not the plane causing the off square planing.Are you starting to plane the strips in a roughing form, then intermediate before going to the final form?If you try going straight to the final form you'll find the strips will lay over and wont easily plane evenly. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 25 03:21:43 1997 Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:21:26 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Steve Leach wrote: I am about to "retire" (or is it terminate with extreme prejudice??) my block plane (made in some un-named South American county) andbuy one that is capable of the basic functions needed for rodbuilding. I notice that the FAQ and most of the correspondence refers to theStanley 9 1/2 (Product No. 1-12-020) as the preferred tool forfinishing (with or without a Hock blade ?) This plane has a 21 degblade angle. One of the other planes in the Stanley range (1-12-060)has a 13 1/2 deg blade angle and my local merchant feels that theshallower angle would be more suitable for my purpose. This opinion may have some thing to do with the fact that he does notnormally stock the 9 1/2 but his advice is normally reliable. Can anyone give me some advice on which I should buy. Steve Leach There must be a real *ideal* pitch of iron and most seem to think the 9 1/2 is the best plane to use. I've been using a 60 1/2 and wont swap and it's pitch is different to the 9 1/2.I think the most important thing is an adjustable throat. Without it you can't easily control the curl of the shavings unless you adjust the frog of the plane and you can't do that on low angle block planes.When the plane cuts the shaving is lifted and follows the iron. If the shaving isn't prevented from lifting too far along the strip it'll tear out.Adjusting the throat so it's a good match between the thickness of the shaving being cut and width of the opening is (apart from the sharpness) how you acheive a good cut.Without the ability to adjust the throat, no matter how sharp or finely set the iron is you can't control how far the shaving will lift before curling. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Mar 25 06:23:24 1997 MAA21499 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:23:07GMT Subject: Re: Book search/Rod turners/Varnishing John, if you do not get any responses to your book search, you might try Powells books in Portland, OR. Please let me know if you would like their web page URL. You can look up stock on the web. P.S. I am a long time brit car enthusiast, and have a '71 Triumph GT-6 in the garage. May not be the most reliable cars in the world, but England made some of the best sports cars ever built, in my opinion. Robert ClarkeAssoc Director Financial AidEastern Oregon State Collegerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Rod turners Can anyone recommend a good model, and the best place from which tosource it? Varnishing If the rod shaft is pre-varnished, can one still use epoxy wrap fillers onthe subsequent wraps. Perhaps, on cane, one shouldn't anyway. Book search Thank's Robert. There's been no deluge of offers of the Idyll book, sothat web address or a fax number would be gratefully received. Here, the GT6 is considered to be a pretty poor thing, but with its hardtopprobably appropriate for your rainy climate. Contrary to popular myth, wehave very little rain in England (and precious little sun either).The TR6however is generally thought a wonderful beast. If you ever need advice onyour car, garage manuals, or glossy books - try The Bookshop, The NationalMotoring Museum, Beaulieu, Hampshire, SO42, England. from ttalsma@macatawa.org Tue Mar 25 07:28:39 1997 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03220 for ; Subject: Re: tapers Martin Jensen wrote: Robbie Brown wrote: "www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml" I'm having a problem with thisaddress. The server tells me that this file is not no that server!Mayvbe I've done something wromg. Help me Please!!! RobI got the same message " file not found on this server"Try this one: http://www.teleport.com/~gord/tapers.shtml Should help all out. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Todd Talsma +Sligh Furniture Company+Phone:616-394- 0560++Sr. Systems Analyst+1201 Industrial Avenue +Fax: 616-392- 9495++++++++++++++++++++++Holland MI 49423 ++++++++++++++++++++ from bootstrap@earthlink.net Tue Mar 25 08:11:03 1997 Subject: Re: Beta test of possible new product Okay, send address and phone. Frank .A. F.O. (Frank) Armbruster.AAA. Colorado Boostrap, Inc..A"AAA. bootstrap@earthlink.net.A' `AAA. http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap.AAaaaaAAA. Tel: (303)745-1353 FAX: (303)751-8626.A' `AAA. "It ain't tha things we don't know what gets us inta trouble,aAAa aAAAAa it's tha things we know that ain't so!" -Artemus Ward from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 25 08:19:15 1997 mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA15762 +0000 Subject: Re: tapers Todd Talsma wrote: Martin Jensen wrote: Robbie Brown wrote: "www.teleport.com/~gord.tapers.shtml" I'm having a problem withthisaddress. The server tells me that this file is not no that server!Mayvbe I've done something wromg. Help me Please!!! RobI got the same message " file not found on this server"Try this one: http://www.teleport.com/~gord/tapers.shtml Should help all out. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Todd Talsma +Sligh Furniture Company+Phone:616-394- 0560++Sr. Systems Analyst+1201 Industrial Avenue +Fax: 616-392- 9495++++++++++++++++++++++Holland MI 49423 ++++++++++++++++++++ My apologies to all for my misquote of the taper web address. Thank you, Tony, for bailing me out! Best Regards,Ed Estlow from ddm7t@faraday.clas.virginia.edu Tue Mar 25 08:25:09 1997 25 Mar 97 9:25 EST (8.7.6/8.6.6) id JAA132568 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Mar1997 09:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Beta test of possible new product Armbruster" at Mar 25, 97 06:10:54 am Hi Frank, Glad to hear that there are still some available for testing.My phone number and address are Dave Makel492 School House La.P.O. Box 391 (for mail)Nellysford VA 22958 phone: (804) 361-1535 from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Mar 25 08:59:25 1997 IAA29957 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:59:23 Subject: sizing tiptops My this list is busy lately...maybe its the changing of the seasons. Garrison rounds off the corners of the hex shape to fit the rod'stip top guide. Is that standard practice? After working down thosetiny little strips to the final dimensions I'm reluctant to removeany more material, I guess.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 09:44:38 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Hey,Watch it-I have a kiwi friend or two. If you're from Virginia you talkabout W. Va. or Montana you talk about N. Dakota-leave the Kiwis outa this.:-)Hank. from bokstrom@axionet.com Tue Mar 25 09:57:53 1997 Subject: Re: Resrcinol glue lines Archive rodmakers, file log9703.Part 1/1 (subpart 15/21), total size 1331902 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Don Anderson mentions that resorcinol glue lines can be unsightly, butcan also add to the beauty of a fine cane rod. I have also been readingthat resorcinol is probably the best over-all glue from a performanceand tried-and-true point of view. Way back I researched glues at the Vancouver Public Library. Learned that,with respect to the wood that it was tested on, resorcinol is 20 timesstronger, urac types 16 times stronger. How much overkill does one need?John from jjohnso4@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 25 09:59:41 1997 Subject: A.J. Thramer Hi folks, Someone recently was looking for a contact for A.J. Thramer. Thefollowinginfo was good about 6 months ago. A.J. Thramer645 Powers Unit CEugene, Oregon 97402(541) 484-9162 days(541) 746-5942 Evenings and weekends Later,Johnny-------------------Johnny JohnsonLilburn, GA from mrj@seanet.com Tue Mar 25 10:10:38 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00342 for Subject: Re: sizing tiptops Frank Stetzer wrote: My this list is busy lately...maybe its the changing of the seasons. Garrison rounds off the corners of the hex shape to fit the rod'stip top guide. Is that standard practice? After working down thosetiny little strips to the final dimensions I'm reluctant to removeany more material, I guess.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899.If you only take off a little of the edges I don't think you will weakenthe rod any. I doubt that there is any real strength in the corners. Iwouldn't make it a tight fit and take off too much though, just go up asize. I fine that there is slight vareation in sizes. If possible, takethe tip section when you size the tip top and try a bunch of the samesize. from mrj@seanet.com Tue Mar 25 10:13:46 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00439 for Subject: Re: Book search/Rod turners/Varnishing John Cooper wrote: John, if you do not get any responses to your book search, you might tryPowells books in Portland, OR. Please let me know if you would liketheir web page URL. You can look up stock on the web. P.S. I am a long time brit car enthusiast, and have a '71 Triumph GT-6in the garage. May not be the most reliable cars in the world, butEngland made some of the best sports cars ever built, in my opinion. Robert ClarkeAssoc Director Financial AidEastern Oregon State Collegerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Rod turners Can anyone recommend a good model, and the best place from which tosource it? Varnishing If the rod shaft is pre-varnished, can one still use epoxy wrap fillers onthe subsequent wraps. Perhaps, on cane, one shouldn't anyway. Book search Thank's Robert. There's been no deluge of offers of the Idyll book, sothat web address or a fax number would be gratefully received. Here, the GT6 is considered to be a pretty poor thing, but with itshardtopprobably appropriate for your rainy climate. Contrary to popular myth,wehave very little rain in England (and precious little sun either).The TR6however is generally thought a wonderful beast. If you ever need adviceonyour car, garage manuals, or glossy books - try The Bookshop, TheNationalMotoring Museum, Beaulieu, Hampshire, SO42, England.Rod turners: I built one out of a barbecue rotissorie motor. It is theperfect speed. You can buy them at Anglers Workshop in Woodland Wa. Ican't find there phone nu. but I think they have a web page somewhere.Someone here should have it. from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Mar 25 10:16:34 1997 ESMTP id KAA27493 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA07116 for dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.3) with SMTP id VLQPAECO; Tue,25 Mar 1997 10:15:55 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: Titebond II Okay, we've all hear the favorable reports for Titebond II. Now, anyone whohashad failures please tell us your story! I think we should decide once andforall whether this stuff is even worth considering. Don from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Mar 25 10:19:21 1997 with ESMTP id KAA04787 for ; Tue, 25 Mar robin.itg.ti.com (8.7.3/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA07700 for dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.3) with SMTP id VLQSAUBL; Tue,25 Mar 1997 10:18:47 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: LN Scraper Does anyone have an LN Scraper they're willing to part with? I was abouttoorder one from Japan Woodworker but I thought I might as well try ans seeifsomeone on the list has an extra used one. E-mail me directly with youraskingprice, thanks. from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Mar 25 10:26:38 1997 Subject: Re: Book search/Rod turners/Varnishing In a message dated 97-03-25 11:18:19 EST, you write: If the rod shaft is pre-varnished, can one still use epoxy wrap fillersonthe subsequent wraps. Perhaps, on cane, one shouldn't anyway. That's the way I make my rods. Varnish the blank, then put on thereel seat, handle, and guides. My reasoning is that the entire shaftis sealed, even under the handle, so if any moisture gets inside,it can't get into the bamboo. Darryl Hayashida from rclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Tue Mar 25 11:20:50 1997 Subject: Re: Book search/Rod turners/Varnishing 25, 97 08:16:15 am John Cooper wrote: John, if you do not get any responses to your book search, you mighttryPowells books in Portland, OR. Please let me know if you would liketheir web page URL. You can look up stock on the web. P.S. I am a long time brit car enthusiast, and have a '71 Triumph GT-6in the garage. May not be the most reliable cars in the world, butEngland made some of the best sports cars ever built, in my opinion. Robert ClarkeAssoc Director Financial AidEastern Oregon State Collegerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Rod turners Can anyone recommend a good model, and the best place from which tosource it? Varnishing If the rod shaft is pre-varnished, can one still use epoxy wrap fillersonthe subsequent wraps. Perhaps, on cane, one shouldn't anyway. Book search Thank's Robert. There's been no deluge of offers of the Idyll book, sothat web address or a fax number would be gratefully received. Here, the GT6 is considered to be a pretty poor thing, but with itshardtopprobably appropriate for your rainy climate. Contrary to popular myth,wehave very little rain in England (and precious little sun either).The TR6however is generally thought a wonderful beast. If you ever need adviceonyour car, garage manuals, or glossy books - try The Bookshop, TheNationalMotoring Museum, Beaulieu, Hampshire, SO42, England.Rod turners: I built one out of a barbecue rotissorie motor. It is theperfect speed. You can buy them at Anglers Workshop in Woodland Wa. Ican't find there phone nu. but I think they have a web page somewhere.Someone here should have it. The URL for Anglers is www.anglersworkshop.com John, if they can't send you a catalog because you are out of the US, let me know. I have an extra copy of their 97 catalog. I highly recommend Anglers. Robert Clarke from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:40:24 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades Tony,Thanks for some uncommen sense on blades. It's the end product thatcounts.How we get there may be of interest to others but there ain't one way.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:40:31 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... Darryl,The only "dumb" question is the one not asked.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:40:46 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Placement Bill,There is a 2 stage formula that uses length of 1st and last guide fromrodtip plus the number of guides used. It's a bit tedious and I found that Orvis(you'll excuse the expression) used the same formula and if my guide nos.arethe same I use their spacing from their rod building kit (I used to be anOrvis dealer). I can send you the fomula off list if you'd like me to do so.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:45:29 1997 Subject: Re: Idyll/LeClair/Varnishing Tony,I wish you "semi" colonials would stop fussing over who's who- afterall,we dumped the tea in Boston harbor (it's a good thing the EPA wasn'taroundthen).BTW I'll ship that 60 1/2 out this week.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:45:33 1997 Subject: Re: stripper guides Richard,I tend to use 10's 0r 12's-the latter on large line rods regardless oflength-I'll use 8's on #3 and #2 wgt. rods. Ithink I differ from mostbuilders in that I rarely use anything below a #1 snake guide and try tostaywith a #2 if possible. Just my $.02 fwiw-good to hear from you.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 25 13:46:02 1997 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing To all,Tom Ausfield articulated (for me) what this list and rod building is allabout-I enjoy the "curmudgeons" as much as anyone and the variations inmyrods may be partly due to my own inexactness -there are so manyvariablesthat it stays interesting. Like Tom I make one, use it and change it a littleat a time-I am even pleasantly surprised from time to time!Hank. from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Tue Mar 25 13:49:18 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA21281 for; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:49:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Guide Placement All right Hank, How 'bout me??? I'd like it too. Thanks Bill,There is a 2 stage formula that uses length of 1st and last guide fromrodtip plus the number of guides used. It's a bit tedious and I found thatOrvis(you'll excuse the expression) used the same formula and if my guide nos.arethe same I use their spacing from their rod building kit (I used to be anOrvis dealer). I can send you the fomula off list if you'd like me to do so.Hank. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Mar 25 14:13:47 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:19:19 EDT Subject: LN Scraper I have a question for everyone. I am using a LN bodied scraper for finishing dimensions. It seems to build up a burr on the blade very quickly. To the point at which I feel like i am not taking any wood off at all. Any ideas? Jon from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Mar 25 14:13:52 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:19:24 EDT Subject: Re: Plane problem What I do is to ignore the fact that the blade may not lookperpendicular with the opening. When you adjust the blace, hold it up tothe light and bring out the blade and use the side adjustment to get iteven on both sides. Eyeball should be good enough. When I sharpen the Well...that is what I have been doing but I get wary when i see posts or hear of info that says the throat adjustment really controlls how deep a bite there is. It just seems to me wierd. I have only completed a butt section of a 3pc and I don't think the measurements are at all close enough. When reading the caliper I was leaving .010 on the finished dimensions of the rod sections. Is it correct to believe that I should leave only .0010 on the strip dimension to allow for finished sanding if I am using epoxy? I do not have a lot of experience with these sorts of tools and I am not all that sure on how to read everything... Jon. Does anyone have any other comments about the plane problem I mentioned? from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Mar 25 14:14:22 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:19:21 EDT Subject: Blade Angle My water stone is very close to 1 7/16" thick. I am using an off the stone sharpening guide and I am having a problem determining what setting I should set the guide at for sharpening the blade. I am using, like Wayne's book describes, a took to set the blade tip 1" from the guide. Could someone please help. I feel like I am sharpening way to often and don't have any idea how long it takes to get a sharp edge. Any and all info would be helpful. I know this may be basic so you can direct e-mail privately if you want. Jon LintvetIthaca College from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:12 1997 Subject: Re: Variables/Testing In a message dated 97-03-21 10:41:48 EST, you write: Hello Don, I too have watched and listened, and continued on anyway. I have seen techno-nerds(I was one myself) to straight out just do it this way type of builders. All have their values if you keep an open mind. If predictability is what I was looking for, I wouldn't be using bamboo, made by mom nature, no two alike. To achieve your challenge, you would have to quantify the effect of each of the processes and its contribution to the rod. You would then have to weight each process as to how severe of an effect it would have on the finished action. Then you would need the help of some graduate statistician to come up with some kind of fuzzy logic/multivariate analyses. Now you have a prediction. Now is the tough part, validating your process. You have to build several of the EXACT same rod, controlling everything to the humidity in your workshop down to the dreaded sharpness of your blade, let alone type. Hey wait, this sounds like work.When I first started rod building, I also wanted this type of info. Now, I found that time behind the plane gave me more insight than any arbitrary statistics. My plan is to build a couple of rods, fish them for a year, make notes as to likes and dislikes, next winter make some changes. Only one change at a time. On what?, oh I don't know, we'll see what I feel like doing. I'll rely on intuition, and theexperienceof the builders I met on this list, even Terry ; ).So, I guess I won't be much of a help to your challenge. Besides, if it required all that knowledge, I wouldn't be here. Regards.Tom Don and Tom:You two have done a really great thing, for me at least. Let me explain.One thing I worry about is that we are accumulating so much knowledgethat wemay one day find out too much about bamboo. I think it would be a shameifsomeone figured out and quantified bamboo to the proverbial gnat'seyelash,to make bamboo explicitely predictable. Don's questions and Tom'sresponsetell me it will never happen. Great !! + $0.02. RTyree Ps - Don, this is not to discourage you in any of your work. My regards foryou and your work, and especially your sharing, are greatly appreciated. Irealize that what you seek in the above subject is not what I feared. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:21 1997 Subject: Re: Bamboo time shadows In a message dated 97-03-22 06:20:06 EST, you write: Does anyone have a method of eliminating or reducing the shadows foundonbamboo under aged guide-wraps and intermediates? They are not toomuch of aproblem under direct replacement wraps, but permanent removal ofintermediates, or changes to ring spacing are hardly possible withoutveryobvious and unattractive lines showing through the varnish. There's also the problem of dark water-staining of the cane. It doesn'tseemto affect the integrity of the material. We can rationalise its presence bycalling it 'attractive patina' but in truth the rod would clearly lookbetter without. John Cooper (England) John - Just a thought - you might explore camouflage. Wayne's book has aprocedure for browntoning rods using the fumes of blueprint amonia. Itmightwork. Let us know what you discover as this is a universal problem.Regards,RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:23 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades etc...... In a message dated 97-03-22 14:21:11 EST, you write: Terry's from north of the Border. There's a crusty old guy on FF@that is also from north of the border. Must be a Canadian thing. Terry - Ref Don Anderson - also from Canada and definitely different fromTerry.RT from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:24 1997 Subject: Re: Guide Placement In a message dated 97-03-22 17:28:25 EST, you write: Are there any drawbacks to having a guide close to the ferrule on the tipsection of a two piece rod? Bill - There are cases where it might be the thing to do. Some tapersshow alarge step-down across ferrules, and a guide adjacent to the ferrule insucha case may be indicated. Tho not sure what that might do to the action asthe step downs are reported to have been there to speed things up a bit.Baily Woods of Classic Enterprises says those step downs are as much as1/16", so the stress increase must be great at that point. Could be ananswer for 5-side builders, also. Regards,RTyree I have a Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/1 that has snake guides directlyabutting the ferrule on both the butt section and the tip. It isoriginal and seems to work. It is one of the nicest casting rods for aDT 4 that I own. Jim ZThis may tie in with the above. The one Phillipson taper that I have is a2-pc with a large step-down acorss the ferrule. Is that true with yourrod?RT from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:27 1997 Subject: Re: Fancy Blades In a message dated 97-03-21 17:22:31 EST, you write: I would hope that anyone new to this arena would not be shut off for asking simple questions. Some people....including myself....are at the simple stage. Terry has offered be some great advice, as well as a lot of others. I have saved messages containing what I feel is important information and am grateful for everyone's help. So could we please get off the group think gang bashing. Jon LintvetIthaca College Jon - Like you, I think there is room for the beginner. Maybe the origins ofthe list are what is at issue here. Could it be that it was started andnurtured by those who were acomplished builders? I do not know, havingcomein a long while after the list started. Have seen the vexation of sometowards some of us delving into really basic stuff and in a way canunderstand it. So the question is, what is this list for? Maybe thereshould be two lists. One to teach the beginner and one for the plain oldlove of bamboo and the philosophising that goes with it. What about itMike"list guy" Biondo? Can we have it both ways? I for one, haveing beenhelpedalong by Wayne and many others, really enjoy helping the beginner - notthatI consider myself "so advanced", but having gone thru it, enjoy helping.And, having been burned (read flamed) for doing so, drew back. Two lists-think about it. Regards to all,Richard Tyree Ps - sent Terry a letter of appreciation for the story of the Hardy Rod andthe young fighting man who never came back for it. I knew such men inVietnam, and consider it a wonderful piece. I encouraged Terry to staywiththe list, and still do. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:28 1997 Subject: Re: Hock vs Stanley, The Real Story In a message dated 97-03-21 16:15:52 EST, you write: (Evil Genius that he was.)Yeah. Pray tell. Who is Bowsma??John Obvioiusly, mother of Bow. I think her name is Agness. RTyree Ps - Sorry, just trying to lighten the list up a bit. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Mar 25 14:22:28 1997 Subject: Re: Kirkfield's Blackening Agent In a message dated 97-03-23 01:08:52 EST, you write:John - You might try a current product that is quite good. It is sold bySweet Water Rods (610) 756-6385 George Maurer, and The Fly & Rod Room(315)689-7896 David LeClair. I have some from SW Rods and it provides ablueingcolor rather than black. I think the product is the same, whichever of thetwo you suppliers you might use.Re