from sats@gte.net Sun Jun 1 09:30:31 1997 Subject: Re: Tensioners I made a tensioner with two beer bottle tops in contact with the spool, a spring, washer and wing nut. It worked OK but I threw it out when it rusted and have used the old telephone book ever since. The problem I found with the Telephone book (and a deck of cards, etc.) isthat,I occasionally screw up (not as much as I used to but still from time totime.)I wrap my rods by hand so stopping and backing up is no problem except forthefact that you lose tension. My solution was to build what looks like a big bobbin with a 1/16 hobbypipe fora feed. I leave the tube fairly long and drop the whole affair over theedgedof the work bench ( held in place by a cup holder on a large block of wood.). Istart with the bobbin dangling only a few inches from the floor. If I screwup,half way through a wrap, I can back off a few turns and fix the problem. Mytension is constant. If I feel that I'd like to add tension, I put a bolts around the tube (thereason I leave it long). Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from jsbond@inforamp.net Sun Jun 1 20:06:54 1997 Subject: Re: beginner question I think there are some typo's, be carefull, If i recal, identical tapers arelisted for two rods. JBAt 17:02 27/05/97 -0700, you wrote:Okay guys, maybe I missed something but I'm confused. Why, on aCattanach2-piece 6'6" rod for example, do the 35" and 40" stations appear on boththetip and butt sections? What does this imply as far as the setting of thefinalplaning forms is concerned? I'm no that good at math but I can see that78inches minus 35 inches is a lot more than half the total rod length (eachsection is 39 inches, but according to the taper chart in Waynes book 78 -35equals 43). What gives? and why does the tip section total up to beshorter? Don D. James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from sal@eol.ime.net Sun Jun 1 20:37:13 1997 Subject: Taper I am looking for a taper for a two handed fly rod twelve feet long orso. Anyone have one ? Mike from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jun 2 07:52:33 1997 Subject: Two Hand Taper Mike - This was posted some time ago by Michael Marklund, who seems tohavesome experience with these tapers. ---- Tom Spey Special 13' # 9-10 ButtDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 14,8055 - 14,70255 - 14,20455 - 13,70655 - 13,20855 - 12,701055 - 12,201300 - 11,50 MiddleDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 11,2560 - 11,00260 - 10,40460 - 10,00660 - 9,40860 - 9,101060 - 8,501305 - 8,25 TopDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 8,25160 - 8,00360 - 7,30560 - 6,60760 - 5,90960 - 5,101160 - 4,301360 - 3,50 The default handle-length is 650mm. Rings could be placed:-13-15-18-20-24- 25-25-28-33-39-59 cm. The problem is to get good, thick-walled bamboo and good ferrules. Please let me know if anyone builds it and tries it. Regards...----------------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm ----------------------- Headers from khube@benmeadows.com Mon Jun 2 09:18:41 1997 Subject: Ferrule Tabs I am fitting a new Bailey Woods' ferrule and two points have come up: 1. The standard slits look like they provide enough movement to eliminatethe need to snip out any material to create tapered tabs. This observationis based on a dry fit with a light-pressure thread wrap on the ferrule. Hasthis been the experience of others? 2. A few days ago, there was some chatter about fitting these ferruleswithcrocus cloth, special files, etc... I have a supply of 500 and 600 wet/drypaper. Do you think that the grit from this paper would imbed in theferrulematerial and eventually lead to it self destructing? Any input always valued. Karl Hube from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Jun 2 10:32:49 1997 Subject: Greyrock '97 It just dawned on me that at this time, two weeks from nowI'll be on the road heading towards Grayling, MI for Greyrock '97!!! I'll be leaving St. Louis, heading northto Chicago, meeting up with fellow listmember Dennis Highamand carpooling the rest of the way to Grayling. With anETA of "Evening:Hatch o'clock" GST(grayrock standard time :-) Last year, I only set aside three days which immeadiatelybecame apparent was NOT enough time to take in all greatfun, fishing, and friendships! So this year I'm planningalmost a week. (Geez, at this rate I might just have tomove up there in 5 years!!!) Another thing that became apparent...last year I broughtup a 2.5 gallon keg of homebrew which all but disappearedthe first night. This year I'm bringing a FIVE gallon keg!!! So, let's start up the attendance/arrival list... Wayne, Matt, and Lyndi Cattanach Friday the 13th (hmmmm!!? ;-)Dennis Higham Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clockMike Biondo Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clock Let me know what day/hatch you'll arriving and I'll get youadded to the list. Everyone is encouraged to come up a fewdays before the official start date of 6/20. Many side tripsto sample the surrounding waters are un-planned. (NON-planningis a well-seated tradition of Grayrock! :-) Hope to see you all in Greyrock... Mike - Rod & Mug at the ready - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Mon Jun 2 15:35:06 1997 Subject: dip tubes I've got my dip tube up and running and the finishes are remarkable forthetime invested in each rod. I highly recommend dipping for those who aredissatisfied with their finishes.One question I do have is what others have done to solve the problem ofgelled finish at the top of the tube. I try to lay a piece of plastic foodwrap on top to cover the whole surface area, and then put an air-tight capon,but there are still gooy chunks of gelled varnish at the top. So far thishasn't been a problem because they tend to stick to the sides of the tube,butI'm afraid to pull them out for fear of breaking off and leaving bitssuspendedin the tube. (How) have others dealt with this threat? -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from HARRY@wacbhs.tstc.edu Mon Jun 2 15:52:37 1997 2 Jun 97 15:52:31 CST6CDT CST6CDT Subject: Tonkin Cane Does anyone in Texas have any Tonkin cane for sale? from rclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Mon Jun 2 15:54:52 1997 Subject: Re: dip tubes M Freed" at Jun 2, 97 04:35:01 pm I've got my dip tube up and running and the finishes are remarkable forthetime invested in each rod. I highly recommend dipping for those who aredissatisfied with their finishes.One question I do have is what others have done to solve the problemofgelled finish at the top of the tube. I try to lay a piece of plastic foodwrap on top to cover the whole surface area, and then put an air-tightcap on,but there are still gooy chunks of gelled varnish at the top. So far thishasn't been a problem because they tend to stick to the sides of the tube,butI'm afraid to pull them out for fear of breaking off and leaving bitssuspendedin the tube. (How) have others dealt with this threat? -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu Mark, I have run into the same problems. I have a valve at the bottom of my dip tube which now needs to be removed and cleaned. I did purchase a strainer recently and plan on straining the varnish when moving it between tube and storage container. Haven't tried it yet, but it may work. Please let the list know if you find anything out. Robert Clarkerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 2 16:23:30 1997 Subject: Well Somebody Had To Well I'm starting to get some of the to-dos done - the last adventurewasswitching the ol' comput over to '95' - so I've been off line for a bit and Iam reading the posts of the last couple of weeks.In the mean time, I was kidnapped by trout bum terrorists this pastweekend and forced to float the upper Manistee. With the cool spring thatwe've had the hatches are off to a slow start but with the sunlight andwarmer weather we had a great fish.A progress report of the gathering would be as follows:a) there are still fish to be caughtb) the aprons are on orderc)the bamboo should be shipped this fridayd)ferrules and realseats are in transit BUT - a little planning on an agenda wouldn't hurt - Your help would begreatly appreciated. Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 2 16:28:52 1997 Subject: beginner answer The layout in the book is correct - or at least the way that I set theforms and use them - follow - the finished rod is 6' 6" or 78" so in a 2piece version the start point for the butt section is at 39". To best getthis point set the forms at 35" and at 40" then make a start mark at whatwould be 39" - then set the strips so that the tip of the butt strips startat this mark. Well Hey it makes sense when you live in Casnovia. Wayne from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Jun 2 18:12:26 1997 TAA08572 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:18:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Ferrule Tabs Karl Question 1 - It is a matter of personal preferance and experience - Wayne's suggestion of tapered tabs have merit - especially if you thinnerthreads - it helps to disapate energy - notice on older rods there isusuallya thread break at this point - if you go with A or C thread it may not be aprob Question 2 - Too coarse - must go to 1000 or better, 0000 steelwool,or a 6 or 8 cut pillar file. Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Jun 2 18:22:01 1997 TAA08702 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:28:31 -0400 Subject: Re: dip tubes Mark Despite your best efforts - sounds like an air seal problem. I havea copper tube with a screw top (plastic) and it seals good - After a fewrodsI top off the varnish from small jars I have stored the excess from fillingthetube. Just for info purposes - I replace my varnish each fall prior to thewinter production. I have found that it is a small price to pay to insure that I have good clean varnish in the tube - it is a false ecconomy to tryto streach the life of varnish to 2+ years - replacement is under $20 andwhen I do 8 - 10 rods a season it works out to a couple of bucks a rod. Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Jun 2 18:25:52 1997 TAA08740 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:32:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Well Somebody Had To Wayne You forgot the most important part - I talked to the "Lovebug" on Sunday - he says most of the hatches are about 2 weeks behind sked - brown drakes will prob be in but the Hex hatch will be late -we will be lucky to see it (damn). Other than that - Mike is bringingthe beer - what else do we need to plan? Regards Chris from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jun 2 18:48:57 1997 Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:48:40 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: dip tubes You could try removing the tube holding the varnish from the dip tube housing and slowly turn the tube with the varnish upside down. This wayany skin that forms is on the bottom. Before dipping any new rods again, make sure you leave the inner tube in it's upright possition for a few days so air bubbles etc selly either up or down. Tony On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Mark M Freed wrote: I've got my dip tube up and running and the finishes are remarkable forthetime invested in each rod. I highly recommend dipping for those who aredissatisfied with their finishes.One question I do have is what others have done to solve the problemofgelled finish at the top of the tube. I try to lay a piece of plastic foodwrap on top to cover the whole surface area, and then put an air-tightcap on,but there are still gooy chunks of gelled varnish at the top. So far thishasn't been a problem because they tend to stick to the sides of the tube,butI'm afraid to pull them out for fear of breaking off and leaving bitssuspendedin the tube. (How) have others dealt with this threat? -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Jun 2 19:26:44 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA19852 for Subject: Re: Greyrock '97 Michael Biondo wrote: It just dawned on me that at this time, two weeks from nowI'll be on the road heading towards Grayling, MI forGreyrock '97!!! I'll be leaving St. Louis, heading northto Chicago, meeting up with fellow listmember Dennis Highamand carpooling the rest of the way to Grayling. With anETA of "Evening:Hatch o'clock" GST(grayrock standard time :-) Last year, I only set aside three days which immeadiatelybecame apparent was NOT enough time to take in all greatfun, fishing, and friendships! So this year I'm planningalmost a week. (Geez, at this rate I might just have tomove up there in 5 years!!!) Another thing that became apparent...last year I broughtup a 2.5 gallon keg of homebrew which all but disappearedthe first night. This year I'm bringing a FIVE gallon keg!!! So, let's start up the attendance/arrival list... Wayne, Matt, and Lyndi Cattanach Friday the 13th (hmmmm!!? ;-)Dennis Higham Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clockMike Biondo Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clock Let me know what day/hatch you'll arriving and I'll get youadded to the list. Everyone is encouraged to come up a fewdays before the official start date of 6/20. Many side tripsto sample the surrounding waters are un-planned. (NON-planningis a well-seated tradition of Grayrock! :-) Hope to see you all in Greyrock... Mike - Rod & Mug at the ready - BiondoSt. Louis, MOMike,ETA 6/18Reed from WDHCJL@aol.com Mon Jun 2 19:57:29 1997 Subject: Re: beginner answer Amazing given the fact that he has disappeared...to get his attentionsomeonehad to challenge the book! Just joking Wayne. By the way, got your call andI wasn't on the couch! Word is that you are coming up on the 13th...I maytry that date to. Will call re: bamboo, video etc.Doug from plipton@sunvalley.net Mon Jun 2 22:21:51 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA206 Subject: dip tubes Mark: When I am through dipping, I float about a teaspoon of thinner on thetop of my finish before sealing the tube. The way I do this is bydipping a fresh clean soda straw in thinner, placing a finger over theother end, removing the straw, place it over the dip tube and let thethinner run onto the surface of the finish. Maybe the thinner seals outsome air and maybe it evaporates rather than the varnish. Another suggestion that I have not tried is to spray some inert gas inthe tube and seal it up. The idea comes from wine enthusiasts. Wineshops sell a product that you spray into a partial bottle beforere-corking it. It is a mixture of carbon dioxide, argon and small tracesof other gasses. One proprietary name is Alagal. Oh yes, and I pick out bits of goo that happen anyway. Mark M Freed wrote: I've got my dip tube up and running and the finishes areremarkable for thetime invested in each rod. I highly recommend dipping for those whoaredissatisfied with their finishes.One question I do have is what others have done to solve theproblem ofgelled finish at the top of the tube. I try to lay a piece ofplastic foodwrap on top to cover the whole surface area, and then put anair-tight cap on,but there are still gooy chunks of gelled varnish at the top. Sofar thishasn't been a problem because they tend to stick to the sides of thetube, butI'm afraid to pull them out for fear of breaking off and leavingbits suspendedin the tube. (How) have others dealt with this threat? -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 3 01:07:00 1997 Subject: Re: beginner answer In a message dated 97-06-03 01:40:52 EDT, you write: the start point for the butt section is at 39". To best getthis point set the forms at 35" and at 40" then make a start mark atwhatwould be 39" - then set the strips so that the tip of the butt stripsstartat this mark. Well Hey it makes sense when you live in Casnovia. I was waiting for someone else to answer this one, becauseI'm beginning to sound like a know-it-all even to myself.Basically it's this: If the end of your section falls betweentwo stations, then you have to set the forms at both stationsto get the taper right at the end point of the section. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 3 01:16:39 1997 Subject: Re: dip tubes In a message dated 97-06-03 01:45:01 EDT, you write: Mark, I have run into the same problems. I have a valve at the bottom of my dip tube which now needs to be removed and cleaned. I did purchasea strainer recently and plan on straining the varnish when moving it between tube and storage container. Haven't tried it yet, but it may work. Please let the list know if you find anything out. The paint strainer works great. To clean the valve, after the varnish has drained and beforeit hardens, pour some paint thinner in a small can, like aCampbells soup can, and sumbmerge your valve in thepaint thinner by lifting the can up to the valve from the bottom.Prop the can up on another can or something and let it sit be sure you don't contact the end with the paint thinner. Thethinner will go up inside the tube if you lift the can up too far. DArryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 3 01:48:09 1997 Subject: Re: dip tubes In a message dated 97-06-02 17:56:58 EDT, you write: One question I do have is what others have done to solve the problemofgelled finish at the top of the tube. If you put the varnish back into the can, you leave the gelledvarnish in the can. Use a paint strainer when you fill the tubeup for the next rod. Or, if you carefully pour about a half ounceof thinner down the side of the tube, trying to form a layer ofthinner on the top of the varnish, and the thinner does floaton top if you're careful, then you don't have the gel problem.Mix well just before you do your next rod. I can't leave the varnish in the tube because it's out in thegarage, and my garage gets really hot in the summer. Darryl Hayashida from neuneman@fh-ge.de Tue Jun 3 03:06:22 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA18429; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:12:54 +0200Subject: Re: Ferrule Tabs Hi Karl, 2. A few days ago, there was some chatter about fitting these ferruleswithcrocus cloth, special files, etc... I have a supply of 500 and 600 wet/drypaper. Do you think that the grit from this paper would imbed in theferrulematerial and eventually lead to it self destructing? 600 grit paper is OK. If you can get some finer grit paper like 1000 it is even better. Take your time when fitting your ferrules. With finer grit paper it is easier not to screw up. Cleaning of the female (and the male) part of the ferrule before trying the fit is very important! If you do that, there won't be any problems. I don't use any oil stones or steel wool because I feel that I have better control with narrow strips of 1000 grit paper. Frank Neunemann ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- ---------------------------------------------- from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Tue Jun 3 06:36:13 1997 Subject: dip tube Thanks for the help with the dip tube problem. John Lipton's solutionseems tome the most elegant: a soda straw full of thinner gently poured on as thetoplayer on the varnish. Thanks John, -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Tue Jun 3 06:42:07 1997 Subject: apology to Philip Lipton Philip,I am terribly sorry for having gotten your name wrong, especially soafteryou came up with such an elegant solution. Please put it down to my beinggiddyabout the simplicity of your suggestion. -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Jun 3 08:28:01 1997 IAA32342 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:27:59 - Subject: Re: dip tubes The new Garrett-Wade catalog (the same one with the little scraperplane on the back) has just such a product. I recall its $10 for a can of heavier-than- air gas that they say will give ~100 treatments.You just lift the varnish can (or tube) lid a crack and give it a squirt.It sounds like a good investment to me; I just paid $25 for a quart of Pratt&Lambert spar varnish, and used about 2 tablespoons to do guideson 2 rods. The guy at the paint store says that when varnish skimsover, it disproportionally looses its driers, so whats left after youdiscard the skim isn't as good. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Philip Lipton wrote: Another suggestion that I have not tried is to spray some inert gas inthe tube and seal it up. The idea comes from wine enthusiasts. Wineshops sell a product that you spray into a partial bottle beforere-corking it. It is a mixture of carbon dioxide, argon and small tracesof other gasses. One proprietary name is Alagal. from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 3 10:01:07 1997 Subject: Re:Ferrule Tabs 1. The standard slits look like they provide enough movement toeliminatethe need to snip out any material to create tapered tabs. Thisobservationis based on a dry fit with a light-pressure thread wrap on the ferrule.Hasthis been the experience of others? I've found that I've had to at least thin out the tabs, because it's hard tomake the step up over the tabs with the thread when you wrap it, andthen you either have to double layer the thread or leave a gap in thethread. 2. A few days ago, there was some chatter about fitting these ferruleswithcrocus cloth, special files, etc... I have a supply of 500 and 600 wet/drypaper. Do you think that the grit from this paper would imbed in theferrulematerial and eventually lead to it self destructing? With the CSE ferrules I've bought, usually all that's needed is a littletouch up with 600 wet - dry, then polishing with a rouge cloth. alcohol or acetone on a Q-tip. Sometimes there's oil inside and theglue doesn't stick. Darryl Hayashida from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Jun 3 10:26:58 1997 Subject: Greyrock '97 Update Here's the latest update... Wayne, Matt, and Lyndi Cattanach Friday the 13th (hmmmm!!? ;-)Dennis Higham Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clockMike Biondo Tuesday 6/17 Evening:Hatch o'clockChris Bogart Saturday 6/14 PFT (Prime Fishing Time)Reed Curry Wednesday 6/18 PADT (Prime Ale Drinking Time :-) If you have been planning on coming up later in the week, buthave the opportunity come up earlier, I really recommend it!There is so much great water and so much to do, a weekend isjust not enough time. You won't be sorry in giving yourselfas much time as you can get away with in Grayling! Those whohave attended in the past can certainly confirm this. Besides,if want any chance at all of sampling the official Grayrock '97HomeBrew you better there early!!!! :-) Mike - 13 days and counting - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Tue Jun 3 11:04:25 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA14429 for; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:04:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Greyrock '97 Update Mike, Unfortunately my name will not be added to the list this year. I will be in the Adirondacks on an annual fishing expedition. I will bow my head in silent reflection in honor of the event. We will have two 5 gallon kegs of homebrew to keep us busy. Have fun, and y'all be on yer best behavior now, y'hear? Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from DEMARALON@aol.com Tue Jun 3 12:35:04 1997 Subject: Re: Tonkin Cane Don't know about Texas but can recommend Charles H. Demarest, Inc inNewJersey. Our e-mail address is DEMARALON@aol.com. Eileen Demarest from 102130.461@compuserve.com Tue Jun 3 18:18:22 1997 Subject: Re: Well Somebody Had To Message text written byChris, INTERNET:rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wayne You forgot the most important part - I talked to the "Lovebug" on Sunday - he says most of the hatches are about 2 weeks behind sked - brown drakes will prob be in but the Hex hatch will be late -we will be lucky to see it (damn). Other than that - Mike is bringingthe beer - what else do we need to plan? Regards, Chris from jsbond@inforamp.net Tue Jun 3 20:52:41 1997 Subject: Hida Fax No. Does anyone have a fax number for Hida woodworking. JBJames Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from burgould@mint.net Tue Jun 3 21:29:40 1997 mint.mint.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29771 for; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:29:27 -0400 Sorry to post this to the whole list, but I lost (actually, my computerate) the direct e-mail address. Bob, I hooked my first atlantic salmon -- he got away, -- and I have somequestions for you. Please reply. Thanks. Bill from Bangor. from rclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Wed Jun 4 19:09:05 1997 Subject: test Testing. BTW, Grayrock sounds like fun. I have Marinaro's "In the Ring of the Rise", which I believe Grarock is part of his old stomping ground. Only a few "old time places" out west. Maybe we need to do something similar on the Rogue or Deschutes. Robert Clarkerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu from jfoster@gte.net Wed Jun 4 21:56:46 1997 Subject: [Fwd: add a book] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5FE9F246603 We have a new contribution to the bookshelfThanks to Marcel jerry --------------5FE9F246603 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release "2" ID# 0-32582L10S150000)with ESMTP id AAA14582 for ;Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:51:02 -0500 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release "2" ID# 0-32582L10S150000)with SMTP id AAA3558 for ;Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:50:30 -0500 0405PM) Organization: personnal Subject: add a book Hello I'm a french fly fisher and fly rod buider. I wonder if u could add abook to your shelf. Here are the reference :La canne ` mouche - Traiti de construction et d'habillage des cannes `mouche - J. De Lespinay - Editions La Simarre ZI n02 37300 Joui LhsTours FranceVery good book and very helpfullThanks and best wishesMarcel Cornille --------------5FE9F246603-- from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Wed Jun 4 23:30:06 1997 0000 Subject: Re: Introduction and identification help Hello, Here is my revised list. I suddenly need to sell some of these, so pricesare reduced from previous lists. Should be something here you can use. Heddon #125 Expert 9' 2 1/2F 3/2 6 wt.bag and tube no cap (2 perfect tips2 1/2F) this rod has a replaced bottom ferrule set probably due to damagebut the rest of the rod is exc. original condition and is ready to fish.Gold plated guides, ferrules (other than the replaced one) and reel seatparts....$155 W&M Granger Victory 8 1/2' 3/2 older bag, a very nice rod, ready to fish inVG+ condition 5 wt....$215 Goodwin Granger Special. 9 1/2' 3/2 original bag with channeled wood tipprotector. This rod from the late 20's or early 1930's. Has model nameengraved between knurled bands on NS slide band seat. Coke bottle grip.While in good condition overall the mid is delaminated for about 6 inchesnear the big end. No breaks or splinters. Needs to be reglued (mid)rewrapping and varnish. Tips measure only .070 so will make a nice bantyrod with mid and tips or restore this very early Granger.....$145 Heddon Model 13 9' 3/2. Project rod. This early 13 has the NS slide bandseat with "Heddon" stamped on butt cap. Has rarely seen Fish Decal withHeddon. Early style Heddon ferrules. The butt has been broken and reglued.One tip is about 4 inches short. Good for parts or build a banty.....$50 Lyon & Coulson Crown #302 8 1/2' 2F ferrules. 5wt. Original bag and tube.Tube is taped up. Has readable label. Red/tipped black. Brown bakelite SLseat. Stripper is replaced with a snake guide. Varnish is good with somesmall chips and nicks. This rod should have a few rewraps and a rubout anddip. A nice casting rod for .....$165 Weber of Stevens Point Wisconcin. 9' 3/2 in original bag. Heddon made 21/2F ferrules. Jasper wrappings. Weber decal on butt. Varnish should berubbed out in places. this rod from early to mid 30's. Nice old rod to fishor display......$145 Heddon Model 20 9' 2 1/2F 3/2 original bag/tube needs a little more polishand a few rewraps of easy color no tipping....$225 H-I Tonka Queen 7'9" 2/2 bag/tube not original? 5 wt. These rods are verynice affordable short rods usually found with one tip for this price.VG toExc....$235...pending Heddon Model 10 9' 2 1/2F 3/2 bag/tube 6 wt. repair wrap on one tip butseems sound VG....$140 Model 1200 Webercraft, 8 1/2' 3 piece with two tips in excellentcondition. These Weber rods were made by Heddon. Original bag and tubeboth well marked. The varnish is beautiful. This rod will cast a 5 wt.well. This rod has a full metal DL reel seat and is from the late 30's. Ihave had this rod in my collection but want to get something new, so off itgoes......$255 Montgomery Ward's "Precision" 9' 3/2 bag and tube. South Bend built rod,one tip is about 3" short. Wraped in black w/yellow tipping. Probably for a6 wt. Varnish fairly good. South Bend style comficient grip.#97003......$55 South Bend Model 59 9' 3/2 bag and tube VG with a few wraps a little dry.Nice bass and panfish rod....$75 Montague Rapidan 9/ 3/2 bag and fiber tube with nice label. Flamed andwrapped as usual. EX original condition. Could use a little varnish on thesilks. Priced to sell at.......$95 Montague 9' rod 3/2. Project rod. Decal is gone so don't know the model.One tip is about 6" short. Ferrules not cracked. Plastic down lock seat.Good cork.....$45 Wiscoy #604 9' 3/2 one tip 1 inch short. bag and fiber tube no cap.Probably made by H-I good for bass and panfish, good solidcondition.....$45 Reels Horrocks-Ibbotson Mohawk No. 1106 Green VG-.....$15 Ocean City No. 35 Good.....$12 Pflueger Medalist 1495 1/2 with extra spool & lines Made in USA EX-.....$50 Books Trout by Ray Bergman not 1st EX condition......$15 Streamcraft by Holden 1919 not first. A little loose but good readingcopy.....$15 Standard three day inspection. $8 S&H per rod $4 per reel. Let me know if anything interests you. Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307CEffort PA 18330 610 681 5670 mstevens@ptdprolog.net Stevens Sight & Tool CoMaker of fine sights for antique single shot target rifles Collector of Heddon and other bamboo flyrods from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Wed Jun 4 23:39:58 1997 0000 Subject: Sorry for mistaken post Hello, Sorry for the posting of my list. It was an accident and will try not tolet it happen again. Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307CEffort PA 18330 610 681 5670 mstevens@ptdprolog.net Stevens Sight & Tool CoMaker of fine sights for antique single shot target rifles Collector of Heddon and other bamboo flyrods from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Thu Jun 5 08:33:03 1997 06:32:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Payne guide spacing Dennis: Thanks a bunch. I recently purchased an 8'0" 2pc Payne. I got it at abargain price because its ferrules were repalced and all sections areshort. I'm trying to determine how much of the tip "shortness" is due to tip-endbreaks and how much is due to ferrule reset. Thanks again. --Rich------------------------------ Richard-The following guide spacing is from a payne 200L (8',3piece,4wt).Measurementsare with the rod assembled. tip top = 0"#1 =5"#2 = 10 1/4"#3 = 15 5/8"#4 = 21 1/8"#5 = 26 5/8"ferrule#6 = 34 3/16" Guide foot touches the ferrule tabs with a single brownwrap covering both.#7 = 40 3/8"#8 = 47 3/4#9 = 56 7/8"ferrule#10 = 66 3/8" Guide foot touches ferrule tabs, same single wrap.#11 = 74 1/2 agate stripper Hope this helps. Are you redoing an old payne or building a new rod? Regards Dennis ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 17:09:28-0700 Subject: Re: Payne guide spacing from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Jun 5 08:37:12 1997 Subject: Conservation vs Restoration ? This is a question that has been nagging at me for some time, and wasbroughtto a head when I was asked my opinion on how to proceed with restorationon aC.F. Murphy rod. I haven't seen it yet, but it is apparently in rough shape,with short tips, some delamination, and old looking varnish and wraps.Normally, if a rod in this shape were brought to me, I would do arestoration job. That is; reglue, splice on new tip pieces, re- wrap, and re- varnish. In other words, restore the rod to it's original appearance, andalso restore it's ability to function as a fishing tool. My question is: Is there a point when that is no longer appropriate, whenthehistoric value of a rod exceeds its value as a tool and it should be treatedas a museum piece instead of a functional piece? In that case, should weadopt the attitude of a furniture conservator, doing only the minimalrepairsnecessary to stabilize the piece, and preserving as much of the originalstructure and finish as possible? I've never heard this area addressed, andwould be interested in the comments of fellow list members. --- Tom from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Jun 5 09:06:21 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13369 for; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:06:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Conservation vs Restoration ? Hello all, C.F. Murphy did not build rods to be hung up on a wall or stored in a glass case.I think all rod makers build rods to fish with. Granted, they are things of beauty, but the "spirit of the rod" wants to fish. By all means fish with it. My $.02 worth. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from santiago@ricochet.net Thu Jun 5 09:27:29 1997 HAA27921 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:27:24 - Subject: Re: Introduction and identification help michael, do you have or are you able to get a copy of martin keane's book? email me directly thanks, leo santiago@ricochet.net from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Thu Jun 5 09:48:41 1997 07:48:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Conservation vs Restorat Tom: On a rod like this, whose value is in historical significance, it may beappropriate to do absolutely NOTHING to the rod, regardless of thecondition. If you were to do something, maybe just regluing the delaminations wouldbe asfar as you should go. If I were in your shoes, I would call Martin Keane anddiscuss what should be done. I'm sure he can offer the best advice. Hisnumber is: (413) 229-7988. --Rich------------------------------ This is a question that has been nagging at me for some time, and wasbroughtto a head when I was asked my opinion on how to proceed with restorationon aC.F. Murphy rod. I haven't seen it yet, but it is apparently in rough shape,with short tips, some delamination, and old looking varnish and wraps.Normally, if a rod in this shape were brought to me, I would do arestoration job. That is; reglue, splice on new tip pieces, re- wrap, and re- varnish. In other words, restore the rod to it's original appearance, andalso restore it's ability to function as a fishing tool. My question is: Is there a point when that is no longer appropriate, whenthehistoric value of a rod exceeds its value as a tool and it should be treatedas a museum piece instead of a functional piece? In that case, should weadopt the attitude of a furniture conservator, doing only the minimalrepairsnecessary to stabilize the piece, and preserving as much of the originalstructure and finish as possible? I've never heard this area addressed, andwould be interested in the comments of fellow list members. --- Tom ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 06:48:44-0700 Subject: Conservation vs Restoration ? from rcurry@jlc.net Thu Jun 5 18:35:10 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA28480 for Subject: Re: Conservation vs Restoration ? TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: This is a question that has been nagging at me for some time, and wasbroughtto a head when I was asked my opinion on how to proceed withrestoration on aC.F. Murphy rod. I haven't seen it yet, but it is apparently in rough shape,with short tips, some delamination, and old looking varnish and wraps.Normally, if a rod in this shape were brought to me, I would do arestoration job. That is; reglue, splice on new tip pieces, re- wrap, andre- varnish. In other words, restore the rod to it's original appearance, andalso restore it's ability to function as a fishing tool.My question is: Is there a point when that is no longer appropriate, whenthehistoric value of a rod exceeds its value as a tool and it should betreatedas a museum piece instead of a functional piece? In that case, should weadopt the attitude of a furniture conservator, doing only the minimalrepairsnecessary to stabilize the piece, and preserving as much of the originalstructure and finish as possible? I've never heard this area addressed,andwould be interested in the comments of fellow list members. --- TomTom,I used to work in the "Conservation" field and we were constantlyconfronted by that question. Most of our pieces were significanthistorically and were the property of the peoples of Canada. We wishedto "conserve", but in many cases, where the piece would be exhibited, we"restored" the piece, sometimes removing some wood in order to cut aDutchman, sometimes painting in grain with Pot. Dichr. on a patch. Theresult of our restoration efforts was usually a fully functional piecerepresentative of the original craftsman's effort.In the case of your piece, knowing the high quality of your work, Iwould personally vote for restoration.Best regards,Reed from jsbond@inforamp.net Thu Jun 5 19:26:25 1997 Subject: Hida fax number I was kicked of the server for a few days, can anyone send me a faxnumber the server. JBJames Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from bjcoch@arkansas.net Fri Jun 6 08:03:34 1997 mail.anc.net (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id NAA15439 for; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:03:30 GMT Subject: Re: Conservation vs Restoration ? Reed F. Curry wrote: TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: This is a question that has been nagging at me for some time, and wasbroughtto a head when I was asked my opinion on how to proceed withrestoration on aC.F. Murphy rod. I haven't seen it yet, but it is apparently in roughshape,with short tips, some delamination, and old looking varnish and wraps.Normally, if a rod in this shape were brought to me, I would do arestoration job. That is; reglue, splice on new tip pieces, re- wrap, andre- varnish. In other words, restore the rod to it's original appearance, andalso restore it's ability to function as a fishing tool.My question is: Is there a point when that is no longer appropriate,when thehistoric value of a rod exceeds its value as a tool and it should betreatedas a museum piece instead of a functional piece? In that case, shouldweadopt the attitude of a furniture conservator, doing only the minimalrepairsnecessary to stabilize the piece, and preserving as much of the originalstructure and finish as possible? I've never heard this area addressed,andwould be interested in the comments of fellow list members. --- TomTom, I mostly do work like you describe. I would vote for restoration likereed. I would also think about taking the tip measurements and extendthem to the origonal length and make new tips if I were planning toactually fish the rod. by the way when a rod restorer says "restore" hemeans a full restoration, to origonal look and fishability. Bryant C. from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Sat Jun 7 04:26:27 1997 KAA28539 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:26:09+0100 Subject: Testing Nothing coming in for several days. Has America slid into the sea, or hassome glitch appeared in the system? Gimme a come-back good buddy. JO-C. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jun 7 05:40:40 1997 Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:40:26 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Testing On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, John Cooper wrote: Nothing coming in for several days. Has America slid into the sea, or hassome glitch appeared in the system? Gimme a come-back good buddy. JO-C. Reading you OK in the (your) Antipodes Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from SacMan6@aol.com Sat Jun 7 09:51:57 1997 Subject: Re: Testing I think everyone is out fishing. Have not had good response to questions oflate.DanPalo Alto from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Jun 7 14:49:58 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27484 for Subject: Grayling - Trading Last year I had some fun making some trades at the Grayrock Gathering(the strangest being a Leonard for a Montague... don't ask). There aresome hard to find rod parts, obscure books, blanks, etc. that I need.And I have some things that might delight someone else (e.g., Traver's"Anatomy of a Fisherman", Walden's "Angler's Choice"). Informally, overone of Mike B's brews we might exchange pleasantries and more.See you there,Reed from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Sat Jun 7 20:13:29 1997 0000 Subject: 60 degree pt. for indicator i just got my dial indicator and need the 60 degree point for it. I knowStarett has one, but i have contacted them numerous times to ask for acatalog and have not seen one yet (going on about 5 weeks). If anyonecouldsuppy me with the phone number, item number, and price from eitherStarettor a catalog which sells it, i would REALLY appreciate it. THANKS!!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net/~mleider/ from KDLoup@aol.com Sat Jun 7 21:12:16 1997 Subject: Re: 60 degree pt. for indicator Matt, Oliver Van Horn Company in Baton Rouge, LA (504)355-2531 has aStarret60 degree point and 60 degree gauge ordered for me. The price is about $4and $10 respectively. I was told it would take about one week for Starrettoship the items to them. I assume they will be willing to ship an order outof state. Good luck. Kurt from jfoster@gte.net Sun Jun 8 12:50:50 1997 Subject: error Warning... I've just uploaded a new version of excel hexrod..In using it i found asmall bug in the form setup page.. This version is corrected. Please download this version if you have previously been using the oldversion Sorry about the inconvenience Jerry from jsbond@inforamp.net Sun Jun 8 20:18:25 1997 Subject: Re: 60 degree pt. for indicator Contact your local machinists supply store. Starrett does not sell directlyand they are also very expensive. If you don't live in a large centre, trythe library yellow pages for a supply house in the nearest large centre. JB At 20:13 07/06/97 -0500, you wrote:i just got my dial indicator and need the 60 degree point for it. I knowStarett has one, but i have contacted them numerous times to ask for acatalog and have not seen one yet (going on about 5 weeks). If anyonecouldsuppy me with the phone number, item number, and price from eitherStarettor a catalog which sells it, i would REALLY appreciate it. THANKS!!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net/~mleider/ James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from jsmm@interaccess.com Sun Jun 8 23:12:18 1997 XAA02857 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:10:05 - Subject: Straightening How long did it take most of you to go insane straightening a gluedsection? Any tips? Thanks,Matt Makowski from jsmm@interaccess.com Sun Jun 8 23:12:23 1997 XAA02868 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:10:09 - Subject: Herters Rod Looking for any information (value, production date, etc..) on a Hertersrod I picked up. Here are some of the details and markings: "Made in England" stamp on the rod"Grand Deluxe, St. Albans""Entirely hand made RH8C"Wraps are red and black Thanks,Matt Makowski from jsmm@interaccess.com Sun Jun 8 23:14:39 1997 XAA03133 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:12:25 - Subject: Re: 60 degree pt. for indicator I was able to order eight 60 degree points from Starrett for under $4. Ican get the number of the retailer if you need it. They might have thrownin some extra points because I also got a depth gauge, but it's probablyworth checking out. Matt Makowski from neuneman@fh-ge.de Mon Jun 9 02:52:14 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA06127; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:59:01 +0200Subject: Re: Straightening Hi there! How long did it take most of you to go insane straightening a gluedsection? Any tips? It largely depends on various things: - How I am emotionally prepared (having a good straightening day).- How many bends I put into that particular blank.- The day (hours before straightening) I had before switching on the hot air gun.- The amount of Valium and/or Scotch I took in. In fact I don't straighten, when I am not emotionally prepared to do it. The time required? It varies from 5 minutes to several hours. Tips? Keep VERY cool and relaxed. Frank Frank Neunemann ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- ---------------------------------------------- from neuneman@fh-ge.de Mon Jun 9 02:52:19 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA06129; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:59:02 +0200Subject: Re: Testing Hi John, I can understand you loud and clear. Greetings fom Germany. Frank Frank Neunemann ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- ---------------------------------------------- from neuneman@fh-ge.de Mon Jun 9 02:52:21 1997 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA06131; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:59:03 +0200Subject: Re: Ferrule Fitting "Rodbuilders List" Hi Karl, The fine grit paper seems to be a popular method although somebuilders also use a small felt buffing wheel to get a final polished finishon the slide. While I know it looks good, I am not sure how you control theprocess. Thats exactly the problem! You have absolutely no real control about how much material is removed. A ferrule is a high precision fit and the way I described it is the best way to do it, because you fit the ferrule step-by- step. I have put two new rods through the "Neunemann Oven" with good success.Maintaining temperature level and distribution has not been difficult.Lastweekend, I helped a new builder assemble his oven which also performswell. Great! Good to learn that you guys have success. I still use my oven, too. :-) No plans to try something different. In early May, my wife traveled through southern Germany and part ofAustriaand the corner of Switzerland with my son and his wife. She came backwithstories of beautiful rivers and reports of seeing several flyfisherman "atwork". We hope to expand on her travels as I have only been able to spendalittle time around Trier and some of the Moselle. In an early message youindicated that you fish small streams....what area of the country is yourpersonal favorite? There are lots of nice spots in southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland and I used to fish there regularly many years ago. I don't know about the conditions there right now, but fishing licenses tend to be pretty expensive. In 1983 the day license at the river Traun in Austria was about $65, which made me look for other spots to chase trout. Maybe someone else can tell you more about how the water conditions and prices are now. I fish in a "secret spot" or better say pretty unknown spot in northwest Germany which is in easy driving distance from my home (less than 2 hours. Nice water, but no guest licenses any more. If you want to fish there, you'd have to come with me. For (vacation) fly fishing trips I now prefer Alberta (far nicer people, better fishing) and I can combine fishing with an other hobby, or switch between both, in case the waters are unfishable (which happened to me all too often in the past). Around Trier and up in the Eifel mountains there are a number of spring creeks and rivers that hold nice fish. I have been there once in 1986, so I don't have any up-to-date information. Frank Frank Neunemann ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- ---------------------------------------------- from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Jun 9 04:00:15 1997 KAA18254 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:00:00+0100 Has everyone gone fishing? I'm used to my system telling me I have 36newmessages - mostly from the States: for several days there's beenabsoultelynothing.. My last 'testing' mail elicited only one response from Frank inGermany. I wouldn't like to think I'm missing hundreds of 'pearls of wisdom.' Could someone at head-office just say 'hi'. from "rmoon"@dns.ida.net Mon Jun 9 08:54:11 1997 Subject: Re: Hi John , I am certainly not from the head office, and I have not beenable to go fishing yet although we had one of the greatest giantstonefly hatches in history on the Henry's Fork this spring. Bad back,and my wife's commitment to my helping get a garden planted have keptmedown. I'm not even doing enough rod building to crow about, but that iscoming. I am only about 6 behind right now. It is good to hear fromsome of our friends from out of the US like you and Frank Neunemann Ralph Moon from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Mon Jun 9 09:03:58 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA04076 for; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 10:03:56 -0400 Subject: Re: testing John, This is very common this time of year, everyone is trying out the rods they built over the winter, I know I've been. Add to it the Grayrock Meeting, BAM.... silence. If you think this is quiet, wait 'til the meeting starts. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jun 9 09:53:13 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) 1997 07:52:50 -0700 Subject: RE: 60 degree pt. for indicator 4.0.994.63 Starrett Tools 1-800-254-8690 part number is EDP70794. I bought twofroma starrett dealer here in Seattle for about $4.50 each. Patrick ----------From: Matt Leiderman[SMTP:mleider@postoffice.ptd.net]Sent: Saturday, June 07, 1997 6:13 PM Subject: 60 degree pt. for indicator i just got my dial indicator and need the 60 degree point for it. I knowStarett has one, but i have contacted them numerous times to ask for acatalog and have not seen one yet (going on about 5 weeks). If anyonecouldsuppy me with the phone number, item number, and price from eitherStarettor a catalog which sells it, i would REALLY appreciate it. THANKS!!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net/~mleider/ from rclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Mon Jun 9 10:49:52 1997 Subject: Edward's Quadrate Anyone out there have info on an Edward's Quadrate? It is a 4 sided, 3 piece rod. It says #35 on it, light cane. The tube says AAW Co, Peerless, Newark, NJ. It belongs to a colleague of mine, and I am trying to get any info on it I can. Thanks in advance. Robert Clarkerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu from SacMan6@aol.com Mon Jun 9 12:18:00 1997 Subject: Re: Straightening I live in a dry region and a fellow suggested I use a steam vaporizer. Itworks great but you have to watch the moisture exposure. good luck.Dan from rbrown@cleanair.arb.ca.gov Mon Jun 9 15:08:41 1997 2.0/2.12um) id NAA000.70; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:08:38 -0400 Subject: Videos Hi all: While in my local fly shop yesterday, I rented two videos that might be of interest to the members of this list. They are: "Winston Waters - A Philosophy of Fly Fishing", narrated by Charles Kuralt and written by artist Russell Chatham, and The Art of Fly Reel and Rod Manufacture (A guided tour of the House of Hardy factory). I'd seen the Winston video referred to on this list before but never viewed it. Filmed in Montana (where else?) the cane rodmaking segment features Glen Brackett (who else?) and shows in some detail the building of a cane blank in a production environment. The video portrays the history of the R.L. Winston Company from its founders through its present owner. The scenery alone is worth the watching. The House of Hardy video shows the manufacturing steps involved inmaking a Hardy reel from casting the frame and spool to final inspection. I was amazed at the number of specialized machines employed in the factory to speed up repetitive operations. Time is also devoted to showing the building of both cane and graphite rods with some coverage of the use of a beveling maching for milling of the strips prior to gluing. Both these videos were well done and interesting. I plan on renting them again and I'd recommend them to anyone interested in knowing a bit more about how these two manufacturers produce their products. Regards, Rich Brown from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 9 17:22:08 1997 Subject: Re: testing Tom - You're right on several counts - or close - It's not the rods that got donethis winter that our family is concerned with but rather the ones thatHAVEto be shipped by next friday before we leave for Grayrock. Then add in ahard drive crash last week and you can generally get the idea. This year acouple of us have planned a surprise - Grayrock On Line. That's right - forthose of you that for one reason or another won't be attending this yearsfestivities - We plan to post updates and take questions on the hour. Nowthepost may be toned down a bit - we won't let on as if we were having fun orthe like - but if there happens to be a big fish caught or something - youwill hear about it at ' web ' speeds.And there will be several videos made of the presentations that will gointo a library that other gathering can ask to get copies of Well I must be off to the basement. Wayne from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Jun 9 17:22:26 1997 SAA22747 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:30:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Straightening MattNot to open an old can of worms - I spend very little and sometimes - NO rpt NO time straightening. I had one student whoafter taking the glue off wanted to know about straightening and I had to find an old scrap and induce straightening problems since his rod turned out straight. (of course this may lead to his long termphycosis trying to duplicate the feat in thinking all rods turn outthis way).Now, I contribute it to three reasons:First - nodeless constructionSecond - maintaining your anglesThird - Shell Epon Epoxy allowing a long working time. I have also had students bring me their straightening problems inclone hard dog leg to the right in a butt section (worse I have ever seen). Guidance is simple - straightening is a finesse thing - small stepsnot one great leap.Start at butt end and first get out twists - going forward - don'tjumpbackwards and forwards. Then get bends (starting at the butt end) thatseem to be caused by a flat (usually at a node) and lastly you may havea bend on an edge and straighten that. Key is to develop a system thatyou start from the back and go forward and not haphazzardly jumping around on a blank. On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:07:33 -0500, Matt and Julie wrote: How long did it take most of you to go insane straightening a gluedsection? Any tips? Thanks,Matt Makowski Regards Chris from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Jun 9 17:52:04 1997 with ESMTP id RAA16611 for ; Mon, 9 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id SLWACUBM; Mon,9 Jun 1997 17:50:45 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Lie-Nielsen Scraper Everyone, Got my LN scaper the other day and was wondering, how does one sharpenthisblade, and how often should this take place? It seems sharp enough directfromthe factory but wouldn't I need a much steeper angle on my sharpeningguide ascompared to the hock plane blade (looks like about 30 deg for the planebladeversus about 60-70 deg for the scraper blade). BTW, regretfully I will not be joining you at Grayrock. I will be spendingthetimely wisely, however, as I will be in NYC on business and then mygirlfriendand will be meeting with some Catskill trout over the weekend. You guyshavefun, I know I will! ThanksDon DeLoach from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Jun 9 18:04:35 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA06470 for Subject: Grayling - lines Chris,At previous gatherings we enjoyed testing rods with different lines.Soplease bring all the lines you can carry, its the least likely one thatturns a ho-hum rod into a star. Reed from mcreek@sirus.com Mon Jun 9 18:22:11 1997 Subject: Re: Conservation vs Restoration ? Can you keep the existing tips original and rebuild replacements? Sounds like this might be the best of all worlds. IMHO, Brian from M1L2@aol.com Mon Jun 9 18:40:37 1997 Subject: Potter County, PA - Flies? I will be fishing in Potter County, PA in several days. Any suggestions onwhat hatches to expect or fly patterns to have on hand? I am a new user of this service and hope this is an appropriate subject. Thanks. Myron Ward from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Jun 9 19:34:56 1997 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen Scraper Don, Sharpen the blade as you would a plane iron. First flatten the back, thenestablish the 30 deg. angle and then final sharpening, don't forget toremove the burr that develops on the opposite side. There is a great Hockhow to on the Conner FAQ, I believe it is in the Rodmakers homepage. Good Luck. JB At 17:50 09/06/97 -0700, you wrote:Everyone, Got my LN scaper the other day and was wondering, how does one sharpenthisblade, and how often should this take place? It seems sharp enough directfromthe factory but wouldn't I need a much steeper angle on my sharpeningguide ascompared to the hock plane blade (looks like about 30 deg for the planebladeversus about 60-70 deg for the scraper blade). BTW, regretfully I will not be joining you at Grayrock. I will be spendingthetimely wisely, however, as I will be in NYC on business and then mygirlfriendand will be meeting with some Catskill trout over the weekend. You guyshavefun, I know I will! ThanksDon DeLoach James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Jun 9 19:39:18 1997 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen Scraper Don, One more things, very important, THE BEVEL FACES BACK, this is theoppositeof a plane iron. JB At 17:50 09/06/97 -0700, you wrote:Everyone, Got my LN scaper the other day and was wondering, how does one sharpenthisblade, and how often should this take place? It seems sharp enough directfromthe factory but wouldn't I need a much steeper angle on my sharpeningguide ascompared to the hock plane blade (looks like about 30 deg for the planebladeversus about 60-70 deg for the scraper blade). BTW, regretfully I will not be joining you at Grayrock. I will be spendingthetimely wisely, however, as I will be in NYC on business and then mygirlfriendand will be meeting with some Catskill trout over the weekend. You guyshavefun, I know I will! ThanksDon DeLoach James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jun 9 20:04:20 1997 Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:03:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: testing On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Tom - You're right on several counts - or close - It's not the rods that gotdonethis winter that our family is concerned with but rather the ones thatHAVEto be shipped by next friday before we leave for Grayrock. Then add in ahard drive crash last week and you can generally get the idea. This year acouple of us have planned a surprise - Grayrock On Line. That's right - forthose of you that for one reason or another won't be attending this yearsfestivities - We plan to post updates and take questions on the hour. Nowthepost may be toned down a bit - we won't let on as if we were having funorthe like - but if there happens to be a big fish caught or something - youwill hear about it at ' web ' speeds.And there will be several videos made of the presentations that willgointo a library that other gathering can ask to get copies of Well I must be off to the basement. Wayne Grayrock on line sounds good, it's a long drive from here! Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Mon Jun 9 21:11:57 1997 0000 Subject: a few questions i have a few questions for those who accually know what they're doing! 1. are there any other ways to temper the cane other than in an oven?? iREALLY don't feel like building an oven, but if i have to i will. i read onBruce Conner's FAQ's that flaming is the most resiliant form of heating??also could i just get a heat gun and slowly run it up and down the sidesuntil the cane turns darker brown?? 2. i was looking through the new Woodcraft catalog and there was ascraperin there with a 2in. carbide tiped blade, and it was mounted on a plastichandle, sort of like a chisel handle, really hard to explain! i sawsomething like it on Mikael's page in his "How to build cnae rods" part, oneof the last pictures. wondering if anyone had any experiance with it, or ifi should just stay with a standard cabinet scraper for now. 3. i was reading through some of the archives and saw that someone(forgetwho) made a rod glued with Titebond II. i was just wondering how the rodwas holding up (the post was about a year ago), were there any problemswithit?? any input on these questions are appreciatted, THANKS!!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net from WDHCJL@aol.com Mon Jun 9 21:44:01 1997 Subject: Re: Videos Anyone that may have leads on the availablility of these videos pleaseprovide details thanksDoug Hall from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jun 9 22:15:21 1997 Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:14:53 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: a few questions On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Matt Leiderman wrote: i have a few questions for those who accually know what they're doing! 1. are there any other ways to temper the cane other than in an oven?? iREALLY don't feel like building an oven, but if i have to i will. i read onBruce Conner's FAQ's that flaming is the most resiliant form ofheating??also could i just get a heat gun and slowly run it up and down the sidesuntil the cane turns darker brown?? If you make your rods nodeless, you can use your kitchen oven. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Tue Jun 10 04:44:51 1997 Subject: Re: testing At 09:03 AM 10/06/97 +0800, you wrote:On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Tom - You're right on several counts - or close - It's not the rods that gotdonethis winter that our family is concerned with but rather the ones thatHAVEto be shipped by next friday before we leave for Grayrock. Then add in ahard drive crash last week and you can generally get the idea. This yearacouple of us have planned a surprise - Grayrock On Line. That's right - forthose of you that for one reason or another won't be attending thisyearsfestivities - We plan to post updates and take questions on the hour.Now thepost may be toned down a bit - we won't let on as if we were having funorthe like - but if there happens to be a big fish caught or something - youwill hear about it at ' web ' speeds.And there will be several videos made of the presentations that willgointo a library that other gathering can ask to get copies of Well I must be off to the basement. Wayne Grayrock on line sounds good, it's a long drive from here! Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ And from here , but I hope to make it next year if I can wangle a businesstrip at the right time Ian k Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Jun 10 05:29:17 1997 Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:28:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: testing /***snip ******/ hard drive crash last week and you can generally get the idea. Thisyear acouple of us have planned a surprise - Grayrock On Line. That's right - forthose of you that for one reason or another won't be attending thisyearsfestivities - We plan to post updates and take questions on the hour.Now thepost may be toned down a bit - we won't let on as if we were havingfun orthe like - but if there happens to be a big fish caught or something -youwill hear about it at ' web ' speeds. Grayrock on line sounds good, it's a long drive from here! Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ And from here , but I hope to make it next year if I can wangle a businesstrip at the right time Ian k Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Hey, Hey!!!! A Kiwi!! This list is getting downright mutli cultural! Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from harry37@epix.net Tue Jun 10 07:06:04 1997 HAA15694 Subject: Re: Potter County, PA - Flies? M1L2@aol.com wrote: I will be fishing in Potter County, PA in several days. Any suggestionsonwhat hatches to expect or fly patterns to have on hand? I am a new user of this service and hope this is an appropriate subject. Thanks. Myron Ward Myron, I haven't fished the area for a few years, but I remember that this timeof year was good with Adams, 14 & smaller, Light Cahills/Sulfurs, 14 &smaller, and BWO are just starting to the east on Pine Creek in TiogaCounty.You might want to refer to Charlie Meck's books--a lot of what he talksabout for Pine Creek will probably be just as valid for most PotterCounty streams, since they're the adjoining county to the west. Probably the best title to look for would be "Pennsylvania Trout Streamsand Their Hatches". You don't have to buy it, just look at it for aboutfive minutes--you'll probably get enough to get you started. The tableswill be a little off this year since the spring's been so cold, and alot of hatches are late. Good luck--I grew up nearby and fished a lot in Potter County many yearsago, and always did well. If you're nearby and can get directed to theProuty, try it for an evening-It always fished well. Greg Kuntz from jsbond@inforamp.net Tue Jun 10 08:54:59 1997 Subject: Re: Videos The winston video can be ordered from Winston directly. JB At 10:43 PM 6/9/97 -0400, you wrote:Anyone that may have leads on the availablility of these videos pleaseprovide details thanksDoug Hall from jsbond@inforamp.net Tue Jun 10 09:03:12 1997 Subject: Re: a few questions Matt, Get some metal pipe, the kind we use for wood clamps (plumbing supplies)suspend it with wire and run a torch along it. Put an end cap on one end,slowly pass the torch along, when it it warm, put the cane in and you willsee steam escaping and you will have tempered some. Needless to say runabunch of tests first, use a watch and develop some tables. If you have agram scale, you can actually weigh the strips. Also, you may have tofashiona sort of shelf to aviod scorching. Garrison's oven was an external LP gastype and his rods sell for incredible sums. Go figure. JB At 09:11 PM 6/9/97 -0500, you wrote:i have a few questions for those who accually know what they're doing! 1. are there any other ways to temper the cane other than in an oven?? iREALLY don't feel like building an oven, but if i have to i will. i read onBruce Conner's FAQ's that flaming is the most resiliant form of heating??also could i just get a heat gun and slowly run it up and down the sidesuntil the cane turns darker brown?? 2. i was looking through the new Woodcraft catalog and there was ascraperin there with a 2in. carbide tiped blade, and it was mounted on a plastichandle, sort of like a chisel handle, really hard to explain! i sawsomething like it on Mikael's page in his "How to build cnae rods" part,oneof the last pictures. wondering if anyone had any experiance with it, orifi should just stay with a standard cabinet scraper for now. 3. i was reading through some of the archives and saw that someone(forgetwho) made a rod glued with Titebond II. i was just wondering how therodwas holding up (the post was about a year ago), were there any problemswithit?? any input on these questions are appreciatted, THANKS!!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net from maiello@yorku.ca Tue Jun 10 09:35:08 1997 (YbJakcePPMbwBaVZQkCex5qxzBskSG0B@sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA16019 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: a few questions Matt,There was a post by Darryl a while ago where he describes how to heattreat a culm with a heat gun by just running it over the culm from one endto the other. If you cant find it in the archives I'm sure Darryl wouldshare it with you.If I recall, he split the culm in half, then with the heat gun hescorched the pith side slowly from one end to the other. This is to avoidhaving a spot which was not treated, and holding on to some water. Thenhewould start on the enamel side and work his way up again. Mauro from rfairfie@cisco.com Tue Jun 10 09:47:12 1997 HAA09756 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:46:40 - 0700 Subject: Re:heat treatment All, here is a re-post of Darryl's heat treating technique. Thanks,Roger ----- Begin Included Message ----- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Mon Feb 24 18:47:49 1997 Subject: Re:heat treatment Content-Length: 870 I've been staying out of the heat treatment thread becausethe subject is akin to religion to some people, and I'vealready been accused of being on the lunatic fringe ofbamboo rod making. But, here goes.... I heat gun the heck out of the pith side of a culm splitin half length wise. Until the pith scorches black andalmost ignites. You can heat the bamboo until thesmoke alarm goes off and the enamel side won'tchange color. a heat gun gives the heat time to soakthrough to the outside, a propane torch is too intenseto allow the heat to soak through before the pith ignites.You need to heat the nodes longer, but when you are doneyou have a nicely tempered culm. I also flame the enamelside, but not very much - mostly just for color. I like theflamed appearance. I think my rods turn out okay, at leastthey don't take and hold a set. Darryl Hayashida ----- End Included Message ----- from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Tue Jun 10 10:00:48 1997 Subject: Grayrock Rodmakers Gathering Hey everyone, if you are currently working on a rod, or gettingready to start one, bring it along with you to Grayling. Therewill be several complete sets of tools, forms and binders there a lathe if your blank just happens to be ready for ferrules, orturning a grip. C'mon up a few days early, fish the day away, and during theevenings you can build a rod while you're hanging out witheveryone in "The Clubhouse". Hey, I've been wanting to starton the 6'3" out of Wayne's book for a while now, this will bethe perfect time to do it! Hmmmm, this has possibilites... :-) Mike - counting the days - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 10 10:13:59 1997 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen Scraper In a message dated 97-06-10 03:00:00 EDT, you write: Sharpen the blade as you would a plane iron. First flatten the back, thenestablish the 30 deg. angle and then final sharpening, don't forget toremove the burr that develops on the opposite side. There is a greatHockhow to on the Conner FAQ, I believe it is in the Rodmakers homepage. I find I disagree with this. A scraper blade does not work like a planeblade, and does not get dull as a plane blade does. I find that the timeto resharpen a LN scraper blade is when a little arch gets worn in theedge. Due to the angle that the blade is presented to the spline, as aLN scraper blade "dulls" a new edge is created. The time to resharpenis when the edge no longer cuts (scrapes) a flat surface. The original60 degree bevel presents an edge with a lot of metal behind it, anddoesn't wear away as quickly as a 30 degree bevel would. It alsotends not to chatter as much, also due to the thicker edge. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 10 10:21:53 1997 Subject: Re: a few questions In a message dated 97-06-10 10:36:59 EDT, you write: If I recall, he split the culm in half, then with the heat gun hescorched the pith side slowly from one end to the other. This is to avoidhaving a spot which was not treated, and holding on to some water. Thenhewould start on the enamel side and work his way up again. Yup, thats it! You can flame the enamel side too, but if you wanta light colored rod the heat gun works. It takes longer than usingan oven, and don't faint when your electric bill comes. Darryl Hayashida from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Jun 10 17:48:39 1997 SAA04786 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:56:46-0400 Subject: Re: Grayling - lines Reed Plan to do so - I have a selection of different lines for my7' 2wt incl the braided silk H line that we traded last year - It is interesting to see the difference line makes to a rod - maybe people will stop buying some of the cheap crap they sell whenthe can dramatically feel the difference. I encourage othersto bring lines and try different lines on their rods. A real education. See you and the SM in Grayling Regards Chris from wfmack@evansville.net Tue Jun 10 18:48:06 1997 world.evansville.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, Subject: Re: Ralph Moon wrote: Hi John , I am certainly not from the head office, and I have not beenable to go fishing yet although we had one of the greatest giantstonefly hatches in history on the Henry's Fork this spring. Bad back,and my wife's commitment to my helping get a garden planted have keptmedown. I'm not even doing enough rod building to crow about, but that iscoming. I am only about 6 behind right now. It is good to hear fromsome of our friends from out of the US like you and Frank Neunemann Ralph MoonRalph--I tell my wife that if God had intended us to plant and tendgardens he wouldn't have invented gorcery stores! Of course thatdoesn't get me out of my annual duty on the compost heap, but it makesme feel better. Bill from M1L2@aol.com Tue Jun 10 19:47:57 1997 Subject: Re: Potter County, PA - Flies? Greg, Thanks for the tips on Potter County. I have heard of the Prouty and willtry to get to it. Best, MLW from EMiller257@aol.com Wed Jun 11 00:38:40 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers Gathering question. What do your wives and kids do in Grayling while you're hangingoutat the clubhouse? The answer to this could affect future gatherings in agood way. Wishin' I was goin'..... ed m. from Fquinchat@cac.net Wed Jun 11 05:10:40 1997 1997 06:15:22 EDT Subject: Grayrock How do I sign up for the Grayrock rod builders gathering? Dennis Bertram from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Wed Jun 11 09:51:17 1997 CDT Subject: Re: Grayrock Dennis asks... How do I sign up for the Grayrock rod builders gathering? Sign up???? Oh that's much too formal for this group!!! :-) Seriously, anyone interested in attending the rodmakersgathering in Grayling June 20 & 21, please just come onup. There is a $25 registration fee for the weekend.Many folks will be coming up earlier in the week, so ifyou have the time, everyone is encourage to get up therea few days early to enjoy the fishing, get started onbuilding a rod, and/or just hang out. If anyone would like more specific info, just let me know. Hope to see ya all there... Mike- from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Wed Jun 11 09:56:49 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13451 for; Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:56:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Lines Hello all, Chris wrote:interesting to see the difference line makes to a rod - maybe You don't kknow how true this is. I built two rods this winter, one was a Paul Young para-15, (he taper accuracy was not great). When test casting, it was horrible with a five weight, better witha 6 weight, but I think it will be best with a 7 or an 8. This is all with about 45-50' of line out. This test casting got me thinking, What is wrong with this logic:I'm fishing my local stretch of river, which is not very wide. I want to use my 8' - 5 wt.(based on 50' of line out), But I will only be casting 20' tops, couldn't I use a 7 or 8 wt line and not change the feel of the rod? I was just playing with Rodmaker, the stress curve's profiles look the same just shifted in the Y plane with just a change in line. (It seemed for a line change from 5 to 6, it took approx 10' to compensate to keep stress levels the same).I'm sorry if this revelation seems obvious, but it took some mystery out of this for me. Please tell me what you think. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Jun 11 13:45:20 1997 with ESMTP id NAA21623 for ; Wed, 11 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id OESTBTBL; Wed,11 Jun 1997 13:44:44 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Scraper blade sharpening Re sharpening the LN scraper blade, do those of you who use an off- stoneguide theangle would have to be drastically different because of the steep bevel onthescraper blade. How many strips do you get of of one sharpening typically? Thanks,Don DeLoach from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jun 11 16:12:24 1997 Subject: Re: Scraper blade sharpening In a message dated 97-06-11 15:06:04 EDT, you write: Re sharpening the LN scraper blade, do those of you who use an off- stoneguide course,theangle would have to be drastically different because of the steep bevelon thescraper blade. How many strips do you get of of one sharpeningtypically? I use an on the stone sharpening jig, because I use two differentwaterstones,and if the thickness of the stones are different you will get two differentangleswith an off the stone jig. To sharpen my LN scraper blade I use a Veritas jig. Due to the way thedesignis on a Veritas jig, you can sharpen a scraper blade at steep angles. becauseI get very close to final dimensions with a Record 9 1/2 plane before I usethe LN scraper. I usually have to do only a couple of passes per strip withthe LN scraper. I can do a number of complete rods without resharpeningthe scraper blade. Darryl Hayashida from MiTiernan@aol.com Wed Jun 11 16:37:53 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers Gathering To answer E. Miller regarding what do the wives and kids do? Well I am awife and I fish (since my husband was kind enough to finally make me acanerod). However there are other activities also. Hartwick Pines State Parkisclose and has some nice hiking areas, an interpretive center, andactivities.Canoeing is very popular in the area and the back half of the Fly Factory isknown as Ray's Canoes. There is a wonderful quilt store called the Ice Boxin Grayling that needs to be visited regardless of sewing ability. (Mysewing is limited to rod tube bags). Traverse City is close and has manytourist attractions, including an outlet mall. Interlochen has a nationallyknown musical arts center and probably about an hour away. The group is friendly and I have always felt welcomed. Not havingchildren Ican't directly respond to that, however there are children there and theyalwaysseem to be having fun. For more information contact the Grayling AreaVisitors Council at:http://www.grayling-mi.com e-mail : visitor@grayling-mi.comor theMichigan Travel Bureau at: http://www.travel-michigan.state.mi.us It is great fun in Grayrock, hope to see you and the family there.Cheryl Tiernan from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jun 11 16:38:56 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers Gathering My answer may be different than others - but the 'kids' will be in withthe group especially Lyndi and the fishing. The wife doesn't fish or makerods but she enjoys the boat rides. justwest of Grayrock 45 miles in TC(Traverse City). And if by some chancetheygolf there is Gaylord to the north. And then Fudgey Mackinew City andIslandabout 1 1/2 hours up I 75.And you thought that you were going to be stuck out in the middle ofnowhere. Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jun 11 16:41:30 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock Dennis -All you have to do is show up - And If you are in town this weekend itmight be a good time to do the boat thing we were supposed to do earlier. Wayne from "rmoon"@dns.ida.net Wed Jun 11 17:33:58 1997 Subject: Re: Lines You are quite right Tom. I have never done the math to determine theexact line size for a relative distance in a given rod, but I rememberwhen I was still a boy that I invariably overloaded my rod when I wasfishing near and fine. Sounds dumb does'nt it. Heavier line for closerfishing, but then it is really the way one casts and the leader that areimportant at the final link between fly and fish. I have gotten soraunchy in my old age I am deliberately not marking line weights on myrods. Ralph from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jun 11 18:39:36 1997 Subject: Grayrock - the wednesday before An update of sorts - the aprons are done - There will also be name tags- the around the neck type ( similar as dog tags - for body identification -if needed). Several are bring tools and rods under construction or start onsite. I have an oven and wood lathe - torches - in addition to a couplecomplete sets of hand tools. Mile T is coming with canoe and dip tubelatchedto the roof of the sport utility. Ya - the dip tube is a bail out plan for arod that looks like it won't quite get all the coats of finish on beforefriday.With the extended unofficial days several of the group will have achanceto learn and practice their skills (flyfishing - rod making - brewskis). Iambring practice culms as well as some to make rods with. I suspect thatanyrain days and evenings that the shavings will be rolling in the clubhouse.There is not going to be any moon to fish too late into the night with sothis could all work out well. All are welcome to come and join us whetherveteran or novice - this could be a rewarding experienceI talked with Ron Barch a couple of nights ago and he will have freshcopies of his new book available. The ferrules are in for those that orderedthem and there maybe a spare set or two for impromptu selection. AlBellingerhas sent several sample reelseats as well as Al at REC - Bellinger also a reel for all to drool over - wholesale it's a tad over $700.AND - a while back I purchased a fine piece of fly fishing antiquia -buried in a corner of a local shop I pawed out a new # 6 DTsilk line - itcame mounted on an even more collectible bakelite reel with green crankhandle - NOW this line is bigger than what I normally fish so I might beableto be talked out of it or it might be donated to a less than silent bid forthe local stream improvement fund.I appologize for the silence of late - it has been a period of addressingneeded issues - but I'm looking forward to a relaxing sleepless week inGrayrock. There will be a postings board for messages and to indicate thelocale of the major flock - or if in dought just come to Spike's. The phonenumber for The Fly Factory is 517 - 348 - 5844 or my home number is 616- 675- 5894 - my patient and loving wife will take messages and answerquestionsas needed. Wayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Jun 11 19:29:36 1997 Subject: test Test from Fquinchat@cac.net Wed Jun 11 21:13:13 1997 1997 22:18:04 EDT Subject: Re: Grayrock ----------From: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: GrayrockDate: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 5:50 PM Dennis -All you have to do is show up - And If you are in town this weekend itmight be a good time to do the boat thing we were supposed to do earlier. Wayne Wayne: We will be up this weekend (in Fredrock). Let's do the boat thing, I'lldrop by the Fly Factory Friday evening. If we don't connect, call thecabin. Dennis from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Jun 12 11:17:38 1997 with ESMTP id LAA15745 for ; Thu, 12 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id NMQQAOBM; Thu,12 Jun 1997 11:16:44 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Alternative glues Was at the local Boater's World last night looking for Resorcinol when Istarted talking with one of the employees who was a boatbuilder about hisfavorite glue-- West Systems epoxy. He thinks this stuff is far superior toanything he's used, including Resorcinol and Nyatex, mainly because itswater-thin and extremely flexible. He seemed to indicate that theflexibilityof this stuff would be perfectly suited to rod building. Also he said it islighter than anything he's tried--this really peaked my curiosity. Thelighterthe better, because a glue-heavy tip section changes rod actionconsiderably.Anyway the guy seemed real knowledgable and helpful and gave me lots ofinformation on the glue. There are several resin/hardener combinationswithvarying setup times. The 206 formula is the quickdry formula (15-20minutes)whereas the 209 has a working time of nearly an hour. The only drawback Icouldsee with this stuff is the cost--about $50 for the resin and hardener inthe209 formula. Anyone heard of this stuff, or tried it on a rod? Don DeLoach from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Jun 12 11:45:37 1997 Subject: Re: Alternative glues Dear Don,You should try to find out at what temperature the cured resinsoftens(glass transition temperature). Then find out at what temperaturecatastrophic failure occurs. If these two figures are close, then youwon't be able to straighten the glued sections without risk. If they are50 or more degrees apart, then you'll have a good useable compound.John Zimny from 102130.461@compuserve.com Thu Jun 12 12:28:45 1997 Subject: Grayrock Hatch Update I thought that those of you coming to Grayrock might appreciate a streamconditions and hatch update. It follows below. Steve Southard~~ *************************************************************************** THE FLY FACTORY HATCHLINE UPDATE 6/12 BROWN DRAKE ALERT! Things are warming up here in the north. Evening fishing and bigger-fish-on- dry-flies fishing is in fashion !! The sulphurs, march browns, light cahills and mahoganys [...ies??] are active. There have been reports of brown drakes on the north branch and also in the bigger water below Mio. Both reports are unconfirmed [not firsthand] but come from reliable sources. All indicators point to increasing brown drake activity over the next few days to a week. STREAM CONDITIONS The streams have dropped considerably and virtually all streams sections are either at normal levels or are a little below normal levels. Some ofthe sections that lower than normal are extremely clear. All stream sections are fishable! Essentially, we have already reached summer stream conditions. Though we have a good ground water charge, from snowpack and a good, gradual melt off, the woods are dry and streams are dropping steadily. We need some rain to wet the woods and reduce the fire danger, which is very high right now. Water temps firmly moved over 60 degrees. Morning water temps recently have ranged from the mid 50's to low 60's and late afternoon water temps in the low to high 60's. With warmer evenings [in the 50's] the water temps are not dropping dramatically overnight. This morningwe repeated our highest AM water temp of the season - 62 degrees. Conditions are likely not to change significantly as the balance of theweek should bring us a continuing spell of warm weather, perhaps cooling from the 80's to the 70's, with decent sunshine and [we hope] a chance of showers Thursday and Saturday in addition to the little bit of rain wereceived via a thunderstorm last evening. HATCH ACTIVITY We're still seeing some olives early in the AM, from dawn until the sungets high enough in the sky to chase away early morning shadows, and again at dusk and after dark. With warmer temps, the black caddis [#16-18 with green egg sac) have peaked, but we are still seeing a few on some river sections. The olive caddis [#12-16]and tan caddis [#14] are hatching strongly now, with lots of both caddis coming off at and after dark. We've had bugs on our shop window after dark regularly over the past two weeks and the overnight conditions have steadily been becoming more 'summer-like'. There have March Browns [#12] and Sulphurs [#16-18] for sometime and the Light Cahills [#12-16] have come on more strongly during this week. These light bodied mayflies are a great hatch to fish -at dusk in the "sweet" time of the evening; Roberts Drake [#14-18] can be very effective. In some river sections we are also seeing good numbers of yellow [or "green"] stones [#12-14], a few larger stones [#8-10] and an occasional "giant" stone [similar to the western "salmon fly"] that run up size 2-4. In the past two days we've had some reports of brown drakes, particularly on the North Branch; haven't been there personally to confirm, butcertainly conditions are right for the brown drakes and we are going to be seeing plenty of them very soon ---- expect good brown drake activity by the end of the week. There are also decent numbers of big "mahoganies". These bugs range size 10-12 [primarily 12] and are a very dark reddish-brown. When the spinners hit the water, generally near dark, they can be tough to see with their very dark body color and clear wing. the trout will sometimes go "selective" on these bigger flies, to the exclusion of larger numbers of sulphur duns and spinners. Keep an eye out for them!! With the caddis active throughout the day, Royal trudes and sparkle trudes [#12-14] have been a good daytime attractor pattern. You can also fish a soft-hackled wet fly [like a partridge & peacock] during the day when you see the caddis hatching and no surface feeding activity. Try rigging upwith a beadhead nymph "down" [on the end of your line] and a soft-hackle on a dropper, up 12-18" from the beadhead. If fishing a caddis dry fly,"skitter" it a bit to attract attention. Alternatively, try trailing a caddisemerger or soft-hackle from the bend of the hook of the dry, about 12-18" behind; treat the trailing dropper with leader sink. Look for trout to more actively feed on the caddis emergers near the surface late in the day, when the sun is low in the sky and until dark, but generally very close to cover. There can be a real 'pot pouri' [big assortment!] of bugs active at dark [including mosquitoes!!]. It can be tough to identify which of the insects the fish are feeding on. Look closely and use a net seine to identifywhich fly to use; carry a bunch of different flies!!!! [it's good for business] AND there is a decent chance that we may see some showers later in the week. Heavy overcast and rain can bring bigger browns out to cruise [that normally stay very close to cover in the daylight hours]. They come out to pick up minnows and smaller fish dislodged by increased flows caused by the rain. Get out and fish in that rain!!! --- using zonkers, sculpins, matukas, muddlers, etc. We like using a sinking leader system - which we have diagrammed on our board in the shop -- rather than a split shot or a sink tip line. It is very versatile, easier to cast and is resistant togetting hung up on the bottom. WEATHERThu: partly sunny; 80Fri: partly sunny; upper 70's - 80Sat: dry; upper 60's - mid 70'sSun: chance of showers; 70 - 75Mon: chance of showers; 70 AN OLINE HATCHLINE BONUS TODAY: A "fishing story": The night before last I headed over to the Manistee with Sam Surre for an evening wade. Some of you know Sam, who is an excellent and creative production tyer who also guides and does instruction [both ff'ing and fly- tying] through the shop. We arrived at the river [between Yellow Trees and CCC Bridge] just as the sun got very low in the sky. We could see some bugs on the water and some smaller fish were already active, so we hurried to get into our waders and the river. Sam went upstream and I went down. Within a few minutes there were nicer fish feeding; 3 or 4 looked to be in the 12-18" range, judging bytheir rise forms and feeding habits. Sulphurs and mahogany spinners were obviously active. In short order I went through a succession of 5 or 6 fly changes, trying to match the bugs that were the object of these finebrowns' attention. The best I managed were several very tentative takes and a like number of outright refusals. I knew that I hadn't succeeded in finding the right fly and considered wading over into their feeding lane to see if I could figure out what I was missing. I didn't do so [not wanting to disrupt their feeding rhythm] but,in retrospect, now wish that I had. At least I would have likely discovered what these trout had gone 'selective' on and had the right fly on my line before it became too late. While I was standing in midstream with the latest wrong-fly-of-choice in my hand and contemplating my next move, Sam waded down behind me. "Did you hear my little 2 weight reel singing?", says he. Too involvedwith my own predicament to notice, I hadn't heard Sam's good fortune, but the twinkle in his eye was a quick indicator that Sam had landed a nice fish. It turned out that he had identified the trout's food-of-choice fairly quickly-- #20-22 olives [in the midst of #16 Sulphurs and #12 mahogany spinners] -- and had landed and released two nice browns, one 17"+ and another a little smaller. Sam offered his rod and #20 olive; I had a couple of decent fish roll on it, but the feeding activity was winding down and I never "hooked up". Moral of the story: It is always important, and especially so during this evening/night-time fishing period, to fully and accurately assess what is going on with regard to the bugs on the water and the trout's bug of choice. At this time of year there can be perhaps a half dozen or more different insects on the water at one time. Bigger is not always better,as the above story illustrates. Take time when you enter the water to take a close look around; check a feeding lane [generally where the bubblesgather into a steady stream in the river - the "bubble line". Using a seine tocheck in a pouch right on your net and is very handy - the "Quick-Seine" from gwbarnes@biddeford.com Thu Jun 12 12:50:47 1997 mail.gwi.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27578 for Subject: Re: Alternative glues At 11:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote:Was at the local Boater's World last night looking for Resorcinol when Istarted talking with one of the employees who was a boatbuilder abouthisfavorite glue-- West Systems epoxy. He thinks this stuff is far superiortoanything he's used, including Resorcinol and Nyatex, mainly because itswater-thin and extremely flexible. He seemed to indicate that theflexibilityof this stuff would be perfectly suited to rod building. Also he said it islighter than anything he's tried--this really peaked my curiosity. Thelighterthe better, because a glue-heavy tip section changes rod actionconsiderably.Anyway the guy seemed real knowledgable and helpful and gave me lots ofinformation on the glue. There are several resin/hardener combinationswithvarying setup times. The 206 formula is the quickdry formula (15-20minutes)whereas the 209 has a working time of nearly an hour. The only drawbackIcouldsee with this stuff is the cost--about $50 for the resin and hardener inthe209 formula. Anyone heard of this stuff, or tried it on a rod? Don DeLoach Sure have. I've been using West Epoxy for years on all the rods I've built.The things John Z. mentioned are all available from West System (GougeonBrothers, Inc., P.O. Box X908, Bay City, MI 48707, Tel 517-684-7286, FAX517-684-1374). They also have a WEB page but I've misplaced the URL. When contacted they have been very helpful. For example when I startedgoing nodeless, they went to great length to be sure their system wascompatible with the Tight Bond II I wasnted touse for splicing the shortsections. They also addressed straightening, giving a temperature at which the bondand strength would both be increased. Those I'd have to look up but I'msure they would respond if you contact them. The address I quoted is an old one but I believe still good. George Barnes from gwbarnes@biddeford.com Thu Jun 12 12:53:19 1997 mail.gwi.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27959 for Subject: Re: Alternative glues At 11:16 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote:Was at the local Boater's World last night looking for Resorcinol when Istarted talking with one of the employees who was a boatbuilder abouthisfavorite glue-- West Systems epoxy. He thinks this stuff is far superiortoanything he's used, including Resorcinol and Nyatex, mainly because itswater-thin and extremely flexible. He seemed to indicate that theflexibilityof this stuff would be perfectly suited to rod building. Also he said it islighter than anything he's tried--this really peaked my curiosity. Thelighterthe better, because a glue-heavy tip section changes rod actionconsiderably.Anyway the guy seemed real knowledgable and helpful and gave me lots ofinformation on the glue. There are several resin/hardener combinationswithvarying setup times. The 206 formula is the quickdry formula (15-20minutes)whereas the 209 has a working time of nearly an hour. The only drawbackIcouldsee with this stuff is the cost--about $50 for the resin and hardener inthe209 formula. Anyone heard of this stuff, or tried it on a rod? Don DeLoach P.S. Prices quoted are high compared to this area if you go with quart sizeon the resin. 206 hardener will give a pot life of 25 to 30 minutes at 70degrees. GWB from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Thu Jun 12 14:12:32 1997 Subject: RE:Grayrock Hatch Update RO>I thought that those of you coming to Grayrock might appreciate astreamRO>conditions and hatch update. It follows below. RO>Steve Southard~~ You guys are making it very very hard to miss the outing - I really wishI could go this year. Enjoy and tight lines all, Don Burns from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jun 12 17:17:58 1997 Subject: Re: Alternative glues I hate to be argumentative - but remember you were talking to a boatbuilder and not a rod maker - his recommendation for the West Systemglue isonly leading you toward disappointment. The thermoset system 125/126of theWest system can be used for rods if you are willing to purchase theminimumquanities.The problem is the HDT (heat deflection temperature) of the gluingsystem105/209 system - It's great if you are building an AuSable river boat butnota bamboo fly rod. Wayne from nakayama@katri.kajima.co.jp Thu Jun 12 18:48:58 1997 (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/3.4W4) with ESMTP id IAA11040 for; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:48:30 +0900 (JST) SMTP id IAA02781 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 199708:48:29 +0900 (JST) katrigw.katri.kajima.co.jp (8.6.11+2.4W/3.4W3) with SMTP id IAA02168 1345963142==_============" Subject: Self introduction --============_-1345963142==_============ This is the first time for me to mail this mailing list. I introducemyself briefly. I am a Japanese amateur bamboo rod builder experienced 8years. I usually make 1 or 2 rods per year. I show you a latest rod whichwon the first prize of amateur bamboo rod building contest in 1997 . JPEGphoto of this rod is attached , so you can open and view it using browser.It is 4 pieces 6ft. 6in. #3 and no node. The materials of reel seat areelm and nickel silver.Please send your impression and advice to me. Minoru NakayamaMusashino-shi, TokyoJapan from wfenior@cris.com Thu Jun 12 19:31:14 1997 [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Subject: Re: Greyrock '97 Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum (some of you may have seen a couple posts from me acouple weeks ago...), and I've been doing a lot of lurking/learning. I'd like to meet you all this weekend, but my Mom is in Michigan for a visitand I'll be driving down to the Clarkston area. (Maybe I'll get a chance tocome up Sunday). Anyway, my son and I fished the South Branch of the AuSable Sunday night,sohere's my report on the river for all you guys coming up to fish. (Wefished down from Chase bridge road). Lots of sulfurs, generally size 16. Most of our fish were caught on spinnerimitaions. (all brookies).Mahogonies were falling at about 9:30 pm.We saw a lot of tan caddis, but the fish as far as I could tell were notkeying in on them. That's it! Its raining in Midland now, we're about an hour and a half from"the zone." Good luck to everyone this weekend, and maybe I'll get up tosee you all Sunday. There is a remote possibility that we'll fish tomarrownight, in which case I'll post another report. Wayne FeniorMidland, MI======================================---- ---------------------------------- wfenior@cris.com Wayne B. FeniorQuebecor Printing Pendell Inc.Electronic Prepress Technical Manager Extention 199 at:517-496-3333 - or -800-448-4288Fax:517-496-9165 World Wide Web Family Home Page:http://www.cris.com/~wfenior/ --------------------------------------- ======================================= from holmesr@mwr.kic.or.jp Thu Jun 12 19:37:44 1997 Subject: nodeless am trying to do a nodeless rod and am wondering if the splice bockis the 4 degree as mentioned in garrison/carmichael book, chris'ssplice block looks to be 8-12 degrees, any advice? wes parker okinawa, japan from wfenior@cris.com Thu Jun 12 19:41:57 1997 [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Straightening I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael book saystouse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and I putan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tip that Ihad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MI from joannedgill@clear.net.nz Thu Jun 12 19:52:25 1997 orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.8) with ESMTP id MAA19009; Fri, 13 Jun 199712:52:18 +1200 (NZST) Subject: Re: nodeless HiPlease remove my name from the rodmakers mailing listThanksJoanne ----------From: REBECCA L. HOLMES Subject: nodelessDate: Saturday, 14 June 1997 04:32 am trying to do a nodeless rod and am wondering if the splice bockis the 4 degree as mentioned in garrison/carmichael book, chris'ssplice block looks to be 8-12 degrees, any advice? wes parker okinawa, japan from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jun 12 19:54:59 1997 Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:54:51 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: nodeless On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, REBECCA L. HOLMES wrote: am trying to do a nodeless rod and am wondering if the splice bockis the 4 degree as mentioned in garrison/carmichael book, chris'ssplice block looks to be 8-12 degrees, any advice? wes parker okinawa, japan Experiment a bit with the scarf angles. Too short a scarf will fail every time. I'm using about 1:20 and that works ok. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from rclarke@eosc.osshe.edu Thu Jun 12 20:30:36 1997 Subject: Re: Straightening "Wayne Fenior" at Jun 12, 97 08:42:03 pm I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael book saystouse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and I putan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tip thatIhad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MI Cabela's and Angler's Workshop both carry small alcohol lamps. I use mine for a number of different aspects of restoration. Don't know if it would work for your purposes. Robert Clarkerclarke@eosc.osshe.edu from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Jun 12 22:24:10 1997 Subject: Re: Straightening Wayne Fenior wrote: I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael book saystouse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and I putan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tip thatIhad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MIUse a paint stripper type heat gun. You'll be glad that you did.John Zimny from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Thu Jun 12 22:37:53 1997 mailfep3-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Straightening Robert Clarke wrote: I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael booksays touse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and Iputan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tipthat Ihad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MI I don't think anything can beat the dry, concentrated heat from a commonpaint stripping heat gun. Anything that can get hot enough to strippaint should do the job. I like to straighten my blanks (if they needit) without wearing any gloves. My 'unprotected' hands tell me quicklywhen the cane is getting up to temperature. Wearing gloves would notallow me to feel the heat, and then perhaps get into trouble withallowing the blank to get too hot. It's touch and go. But, with practiceyou'll soon get the knack. Joseph Loverti, Miamisburg, Ohio from mrj@seanet.com Thu Jun 12 23:36:40 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA00867 for Subject: Re: Self introduction Minoru Nakayama wrote: This is the first time for me to mail this mailing list. I introducemyself briefly. I am a Japanese amateur bamboo rod builder experienced8years. I usually make 1 or 2 rods per year. I show you a latest rod whichwon the first prize of amateur bamboo rod building contest in 1997 . JPEGphoto of this rod is attached , so you can open and view it using browser.It is 4 pieces 6ft. 6in. #3 and no node. The materials of reel seat areelm and nickel silver.Please send your impression and advice to me.Don't think I can give you any advice but what I saw of your rod lookedpretty good. What material did you use for the sliding band on the reelseat? It looked like wood in the photo. I would guess that you simplyeliminated the nodes and that there are no splices in this rod. Correct?Each section must be pretty short. I would guess that you didn't need tosplice.-- Martin Jensen from 102130.461@compuserve.com Fri Jun 13 00:07:49 1997 Subject: Grayrock BONUS Hatch Update Tonight [Thurs] was very pleasant in the north and more reports of browndrakes and decent fish feeding are rolling in. I thought that those of youheaded to Grayrock might appreciate this "bonus" hatchline update beforethe upcoming weekend. Steve Southard~~ www.troutbums. com "BONUS" FLY FACTORY E-MAIL HATCHLINE REPORT 6/13/97 MID-SEASON FLY-TYING WORKSHOP/DEMO SUNDAY, JUNE 15 Sam Surre will be demonstrating tying techniques for mid-season flies at the shop this coming Sunday, June 15 from mid-morning [about 10 AM until 2 or 3 in the afternoon]. Stop by if you'd like some fresh tying BROWN DRAKE ALERT! As indicated might be the case in Thursday morning's e-mail hatchline report, the brown drakes are coming! Drakes reported for three days now on the upper north branch; recent drake activity below Mio. Sporadic, light hatches of drakes on lower South Branch and lower Manistee [CCC-Sharon area]. Brown drake activity should become more generalized over the next few days and into next week. The forecast is pretty good - but things willcool down a little, so concerns that the hatch might get hot everywhere at once have been somewhat tempered. More nice fish moving with the warmer temps., 'tho not necessarily onlyonbrown drakes. Sam had another "run in" with a big brown taking the littleolives [#20] at dusk over on the Manistee this evening. One fish in atough lie PROMPTLY broke the 6x leader after rolling to take the olive. Bob Andrus reported several active "pods" of fish in the holy water - onegroup feeding on yellow stones that responded to dry yellow skunks skatedon the surface. Another pod went for #6 dry stones [stimulators] skatedonthe surface. Bob also saw good numbers of yellow stones and mahoganyspinners in the air below Wakeley Bridge. LATEST WEATHER OUTLOOKFri: partly sunny; upper 70's - 80Sat: mostly cloudy AM, partly sunny PM; lower 70'sSun: dry mid to upper 60's Mon: dry; mid to upper 60'sTue: dry; lower 70's from nakayama@katri.kajima.co.jp Fri Jun 13 03:39:24 1997 (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/3.4W4) with ESMTP id RAA29867 for; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:39:01 +0900 (JST) SMTP id RAA25987 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 199717:39:00 +0900 (JST) katrigw.katri.kajima.co.jp (8.6.11+2.4W/3.4W3) with SMTP id RAA15834 Subject: Re: Self introduction At 9:39 PM 97.6.12, Martin Jensen wrote:Minoru Nakayama wrote: This is the first time for me to mail this mailing list. I introducemyself briefly. I am a Japanese amateur bamboo rod builderexperienced 8years. I usually make 1 or 2 rods per year. I show you a latest rodwhichwon the first prize of amateur bamboo rod building contest in 1997 . JPEGphoto of this rod is attached , so you can open and view it usingbrowser.It is 4 pieces 6ft. 6in. #3 and no node. The materials of reel seat areelm and nickel silver.Please send your impression and advice to me. Don't think I can give you any advice but what I saw of your rod lookedpretty good. What material did you use for the sliding band on the reelseat? It looked like wood in the photo. I would guess that you simplyeliminated the nodes and that there are no splices in this rod. Correct?Each section must be pretty short. I would guess that you didn't need tosplice. Sliding band was made of nickel silver coverd with thin layler of elm.First making appropriate diameter of nickel silver band then adheringwoodblock with epoxy on it. Finaly lathe again to desired shape.You are correct. I only use bamboo between node and node. That is thereason why I made 6ft 6in 4 piece rod.Which amount of work do you like eliminating splice or making ferrure? Minoru NakayamaTokyo, Japan from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jun 13 04:27:52 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 1997 02:27:10 -0700 Subject: RE: Alternative glues 4.0.995.52 I've used that epoxy for building a few things for my boat and one thingthat I discovered is that it has a severe tendency to break down andcome apart when exposed to sunlight. I built a bow sprit for my boat,and had to glue up mahogany 1x3 to make up a 2x3, and after one year inthe sun here in Seattle, and we cut a calf on a rock when the sun comesout, the glue joint had completely failed and separated. Now whether ornot they've fixed that problem in the last 3 years since I used it ornot, I don't know but I would be terribly wary of using it to glue up arod. Patrick----------From: Don DeLoach[SMTP:d-deloach1@ti.com]Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 11:16 AM Subject: Alternative glues Was at the local Boater's World last night looking for Resorcinol when Istarted talking with one of the employees who was a boatbuilder abouthisfavorite glue-- West Systems epoxy. He thinks this stuff is far superiortoanything he's used, including Resorcinol and Nyatex, mainly because itswater-thin and extremely flexible. He seemed to indicate that theflexibilityof this stuff would be perfectly suited to rod building. Also he said it islighter than anything he's tried--this really peaked my curiosity. Thelighterthe better, because a glue-heavy tip section changes rod actionconsiderably.Anyway the guy seemed real knowledgable and helpful and gave me lots ofinformation on the glue. There are several resin/hardener combinationswithvarying setup times. The 206 formula is the quickdry formula (15-20minutes)whereas the 209 has a working time of nearly an hour. The only drawbackIcouldsee with this stuff is the cost--about $50 for the resin and hardener inthe209 formula. Anyone heard of this stuff, or tried it on a rod? Don DeLoach from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jun 13 05:11:37 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 1997 03:10:59 -0700 Subject: color preservative 4.0.995.52 What is the best color preservative to put on silk wraps beforevarnishing? I bought some elephant silk for my rod I'm making and I amhoping that I can coat it with something that will allow the color toremain the same after I varnish it that it is before varnishing. Patrick from wishbone@headwaters.com Fri Jun 13 06:32:11 1997 (5.65/1.1.8.2/17Feb97-0626PM) Subject: Re: Glues for ferrules Date: 26 May 1997 16:20:25 -0800 From: "Rich Margiotta" Subject: Glues for ferrules Subject: Time: 4:11 PMOFFICE MEMO Glues for ferrules Date: 5/26/97 Does anyone know how to obtain a glue made by Dow Corning called "urethane bond"? I have found this to be great stuff for attaching ferrulesbecause it sets up with slight expansion and stays flexible. BTW, do the new polyurethaneglues have these characteristics and could theybe used for attaching ferrules? --Rich Rich: Dow did discontinue this adhesive due to some ingredient that has posed some health concerns. It was brought back onto the market, however, because it was off the market for so long, most of the suppliers merely ignored it, it seemed. I believe it is still available, however, I have not purchased it myself in a couple of years. I think I still have some left, if you are interested, I will check my stock. I personally stopped using it, and prefer an epoxy called Rod Bond made by U- 40. Although urethane bond does expand, this is not necessarily of any advantage. Anytime you use any epoxy, it is important to ensure a complete coverage of the area to be epoxied. The other problem with urethane bond that I have heard from my discussions with chemists is that it has a relatively weak shear strength. It does have an advantage over epoxy in that there is no mixing, to be sure. Hope this is of some help,Regards, Ian H. ScottWishbone Custom Rods2 Henry St., R.R. #1Grand Valley, Ont.L0N 1G0 519-928-2906http://www.absolute-sway.com/wishbone "It is in men as in soils, where sometimes thereis a vein of gold which the owner knows not of."Jonothan Swift IAW from sal@ime.net Fri Jun 13 06:57:32 1997 Subject: West System Epoxy I noticed the comments on west system epoxy the other day.I have made about a dozen rods with it over the past few years. Have nothad any problem and I do heat straighten using a heat gun. It was recommended to me by a local rodmaker, Cecil Pierce , nowdeceased. He used it exclusively and sold his rods commercially. Mike Palumbo from sall@eol.ime.net Fri Jun 13 07:13:42 1997 Subject: New to the list Well here goes. I am new to the list and have been having troublegetting the server to identify me. I have been making rods for a fewyears. The forum here looks very interesting. I look forward to participatingin the discussions. Mike from sall@eol.ime.net Fri Jun 13 07:20:44 1997 Electronic MailMessage # Topic: New to the list I am new to the list and have been having trouble getting the server to The forum here looks very interesting. I look forward to participatingin the discussions. Mike from sall@eol.ime.net Fri Jun 13 07:22:44 1997 Patrick, I use a water based latex varnish for the color preservative over mysilk. Any hardware store should have it. The one I use is made byBenjamin Moore. I dilute it with water by 50% and put three coats on it. Mike from jsmm@interaccess.com Fri Jun 13 07:52:17 1997 HAA16451 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:50:01 - Subject: First rod Yesterday I put the final coat of tung oil on my first rod! It's an 8'5wt. This has become a favorite past-time that started in January. I probablyspent a little more than seems reasonable on good tools, but I am veryhappy with the rod and since a carpenter always blames his tools that'swhat I'll do. Thank you to good tools, this list, Garrison's book, andmostly Wayne's book. I've been flyfishing for almost 15 years and havemoved away from the Pacific Northwest, this has been a great way to getback to the rivers. I learned a lot with this first rod and the two 3-wt's ready for finalplanning will definitely reflect what I gained from my first rod. Thanksagain to all. Matt Makowski from rfairfie@cisco.com Fri Jun 13 10:42:02 1997 IAA01061 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:41:30 - 0700 Subject: Re: Straightening Wayne, I've used a heat gun and the edge of a burner on our electric stove.Both worked, but I think you have to be careful when using the stove. It'sdifficult for me to gauge temperature. Thanks,roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Jun 12 17:48:15 1997Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:42:03 -0400 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Wayne Fenior "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: StraighteningMime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: wfenior@mail.cris.comX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent- Length: 467 I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael book saystouse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and I putan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tip thatIhad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MI from maiello@yorku.ca Fri Jun 13 11:13:21 1997 (YiLYTMI+oG39Ch7CmoxoejBLNFrYINRn@sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA18132 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: nodeless Hi there.I've built a few nodeless rods.The advantage of the 4 deg is the strength.The advantage of 8 deg. is the length.I think that for my next rod I will use 8 deg on the butt and 4 deg on thetip. I think 6 deg is fine if you only want to make one splicing jig.Mauro On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, REBECCA L. HOLMES wrote: am trying to do a nodeless rod and am wondering if the splice bockis the 4 degree as mentioned in garrison/carmichael book, chris'ssplice block looks to be 8-12 degrees, any advice? wes parker okinawa, japan from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jun 13 11:45:05 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 1997 09:39:53 -0700 Subject: COLOR PRESEVATIVE 4.0.995.52 I'm preparing the components of the bamboo rod I'm making and I waswondering what the general opinion,of the list, as to what is the bestcolor preservative for silk winding thread. I bought some burgundycolored elephant silk for my rod and I'm hoping that I can find a colorpreservative that works so that after I varnish the rod it's windingsare still burgundy. Patrick from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Fri Jun 13 12:34:03 1997 Subject: RE:COLOR PRESEVATIVE RO> I bought some burgundyRO>colored elephant silk for my rod and I'm hoping that I can find a colorRO>preservative that works so that after I varnish the rod it's windingsRO>are still burgundy. Patrick, Lacquer as a preserver will give you almost the same color when dry. Dilute 50-50 with thinner for the 1st coat or 2. Then 100% lacquer forthe final coat. Thread's cheap. Wrap a piece of wood dowel with some wraps and tryseveral preservers over the thread - use the one you like on the rod. Don B. from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Fri Jun 13 14:20:06 1997 Subject: Colorado I realize this is not strickly about rodmaking, but: I'm headed to Breckenridge-area in Colorado: does anyone haverecommendations about where a rodmaker might fish in that area? Whatmight begood flies to take along etc. Thanks, -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Fri Jun 13 16:27:52 1997 Subject: Re: West System Epoxy At 08:16 AM 13/06/97 -0700, you wrote:I noticed the comments on west system epoxy the other day.I have made about a dozen rods with it over the past few years. Have nothad any problem and I do heat straighten using a heat gun. It was recommended to me by a local rodmaker, Cecil Pierce , nowdeceased. He used it exclusively and sold his rods commercially. Mike Palumbo I have not used west system in rod building but would make a generalcommentregarding epoxy glues from my use of glues in the business of makinglaminated timber beams . Firstly epoxy glues will soften when heated evensome months after being used . This may have some advantages for rodbuilding but can also lead to problems . By comparision resornal glues willtend to harden or cure faster if heated . Secondly the epoxy glues have anability to "bridge " gaps whereas resornal needs a close matching of thesurfaces to be glued . This may not be so important given the closetolerences in rodbuilding . regards IankIan Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from Global2u@aol.com Fri Jun 13 17:34:53 1997 Subject: Re: Colorado Take the float trip on the Eagle river, by Beaver Creek. It is terrific. from wfenior@cris.com Fri Jun 13 17:36:22 1997 [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Subject: Re: Colorado Hi Mark, I just got back from out there. I fished the Frying Pan at the dam withvery good success. About 15 rainbows, the smallest was about 20". I usedabunch of the micro pattern that they sold to me out there, but they didn'twork. Instead, I caught most of my fish on olive caddis nymphs, size 8-10, inpatterns like we use on the Pere Marquette. Other patterns usefull around the dam would be mysis shrimp, which Ifoundto be in fair abundance. The lower pan was pretty high, as was the Roaring Fork, and the Eagleriver.Most of them may be high till July I just read in one report. Good Luck!!! Wayne FeniorMidland MI HAt 03:20 PM 6/13/1997 -0400, Mark M Freed wrote:I realize this is not strickly about rodmaking, but: I'm headed to Breckenridge-area in Colorado: does anyone haverecommendations about where a rodmaker might fish in that area? Whatmight begood flies to take along etc. Thanks, -- Mark M. Freed,Department of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu ======================================-------------------------------- ------ wfenior@cris.com Wayne B. FeniorQuebecor Printing Pendell Inc.Electronic Prepress Technical Manager Extention 199 at:517-496-3333 - or -800-448-4288Fax:517-496-9165 World Wide Web Family Home Page:http://www.cris.com/~wfenior/ --------------------------------------- ======================================= from sall@eol.ime.net Fri Jun 13 18:34:59 1997 Subject: two handed rods I would like to make a 13 foot or so two handed rod to fish some of thelarger rivers here.Does anyone have a taper they would be willing to share. Mike from sall@eol.ime.net Fri Jun 13 18:38:10 1997 Subject: lie nielson scraper I have been receiving the postings but unable to reply for a few daysand saw the postings about the lie nielson scraper plane. To therodmaker who just bought one: it works extremely well for flattening thenodes. You need to straighten them first. Set the plane to take off 5thousanths or so and you will have a perfectly flat node in a fewminutes. Mike from mrj@seanet.com Fri Jun 13 18:49:14 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA28829 for Subject: Re: Self introduction Minoru Nakayama wrote:Sliding band was made of nickel silver coverd with thin layler of elm.First making appropriate diameter of nickel silver band then adheringwoodblock with epoxy on it. Finaly lathe again to desired shape.You are correct. I only use bamboo between node and node. That is thereason why I made 6ft 6in 4 piece rod.Which amount of work do you like eliminating splice or making ferrure? Very interesting on the sliding band. Have you used this design long? Iam curious as to how well it holds up. It sure is attractive.I was taught to press the nodes and straighten the sections. I have beenbuilding about 3 years now and I have my hands full just getting mytolerances down and numerous other small details (like a decent finish).It will be some time before I try to do a node less rod as I amcomfortable with nodes at this point. My next rod I do plan on makinghollow though. It will be an 8.5 footer and I want to lighten it a bit.Martin Jensen from sall@eol.ime.net Sat Jun 14 04:55:35 1997 Subject: Morley Bros My brother picked up a two handed rod made by "Morley Brothers". Iintend to refinish it.Does anyone know where and when it was made ? I have never heard ofthem. It has an unusual cork grip . The cork appears to be a sheet that waswrapped around the rod handle. Mike from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jun 14 08:05:02 1997 Subject: Re: two handed rods Mike - The following was posted some time ago by Michael Marklund:Spey Special 13' # 9-10 ButtDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 14,8055 - 14,70255 - 14,20455 - 13,70655 - 13,20855 - 12,701055 - 12,201300 - 11,50 MiddleDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 11,2560 - 11,00260 - 10,40460 - 10,00660 - 9,40860 - 9,101060 - 8,501305 - 8,25 TopDist(mm) - Dia(mm)0 - 8,25160 - 8,00360 - 7,30560 - 6,60760 - 5,90960 - 5,101160 - 4,301360 - 3,50 The default handle-length is 650mm. Rings could be placed:-13-15-18-20-24- 25-25-28-33-39-59 cm. The problem is to get good, thick-walled bamboo and good ferrules. Please let me know if anyone builds it and tries it. Regards...----------------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm ----------------------- Headers from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Sat Jun 14 10:37:20 1997 Subject: RE:Morley Bros RO>My brother picked up a two handed rod made by "Morley Brothers". IRO>intend to refinish it.RO>Does anyone know where and when it was made ? I have never heard ofthemRO>. It has an unusual cork grip . The cork appears to be a sheet that wasRO>wrapped around the rod handle. RO>Mike Mike, The sheet cork grip was used on early rods - late 1800's and early1900's. This rod might be more of a collectors rod than a rod to fish orrefinish. IMHO, Don Burns from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Jun 14 16:12:51 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA04643 for Subject: Re: Morley Bros flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com wrote: RO>My brother picked up a two handed rod made by "Morley Brothers". IRO>intend to refinish it.RO>Does anyone know where and when it was made ? I have never heardof themRO>. It has an unusual cork grip . The cork appears to be a sheet that wasRO>wrapped around the rod handle. RO>Mike Mike, The sheet cork grip was used on early rods - late 1800's and early1900's. This rod might be more of a collectors rod than a rod to fish orrefinish. IMHO, Don BurnsDon may be right about the (implied) poor casting qualities of the rod,but this is not a given. I've had several rods with sheet cork gripsthat cast beautifully. Mike, sheet cork was a transitional material between the use of rattanand cord, and the current use of solid cork. Most of the makers producedsome sheet cork grips during the 1880-1900 period. Orvis had aninteresting approach, they cut oblong shaped sections and laid themlengthwise. There is nothing inherently "cheap" about the maker's use of the sheetcork, it was, perhaps, more expense to create. I would use the gripas-is if the condition is usable. If you do remove the sheet cork, you will find a (typically) pine form.Usually the rod butt goes only halfway into this form; so you will needto extend your rod butt (with a splice or copper tubing, etc,) in orderto build your new grip and attach the reel seat. Best regards,Reed from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Sat Jun 14 21:46:55 1997 Subject: Re[2]: Morley Bros RO>> The sheet cork grip was used on early rods - late 1800's and earlyRO>> 1900's. This rod might be more of a collectors rod than a rod to fishorRO>> refinish.RO>>RO>> IMHO,RO>>RO>> Don BurnsRO>Don may be right about the (implied) poor casting qualities of the rod,RO>but this is not a given. I've had several rods with sheet cork gripsRO>that cast beautifully. RO>Mike, sheet cork was a transitional material between the use of rattanRO>and cord, and the current use of solid cork. Most of the makersproducedRO>some sheet cork grips during the 1880-1900 period. Orvis had anRO>interesting approach, they cut oblong shaped sections and laid themRO>lengthwise. RO>There is nothing inherently "cheap" about the maker's use of the sheetRO>cork, it was, perhaps, more expense to create. I would use the gripRO>as-is if the condition is usable. RO>If you do remove the sheet cork, you will find a (typically) pine form.RO>Usually the rod butt goes only halfway into this form; so you will needRO>to extend your rod butt (with a splice or copper tubing, etc,) in orderRO>to build your new grip and attach the reel seat. RO>Best regards,RO>Reed I kind'a meant the value might be destroyed by any restoration work. Ofcourse, if the rod has an old wet fly action or has loosen up over theyears, it might not fish well too. Don Burns from 76250.1771@CompuServe.COM Sun Jun 15 10:07:50 1997 Subject: Re: Colorado Mark-Lots of good water that you can day-trip to. The Blue & the Arkansas arebothgood rivers. The South Platt or, if you don't mind a bit of a drive, SpinneyReservoir's back and fishing well. Spinney's a tailwaters with lots of bigrainbows - I fished it last fall and had a great time. If I could only fishoneplace I'd probably fish Cheeseman Canyon. The Canyon's beautiful and fulloffish. It's a bit of a hike in (about a mile - half uphill) but worth it. Thearea just below the canyon (Deckers,Co.) is great also and easy to get to...park your car and walk 50' to the river. Fish at Deckers, just upstream ofthe Bridge there's a flats that's usually got lots of good fish. There is a flyshop called Flies&Lies at Deckers owned by Dick Johnson. The phone#'s303-647-2237. Dick can tell you how to get there,what's happening andthe flydu-jour.If you decide to try the Frying Pan the Frying Pan Anglers # is 303-927-3441.Roy Palm can tell you what's happening.Good luck - have fun Regards Dennis from InfoMan@InfoGuys.com Sun Jun 15 10:37:38 1997 Subject: unsubscribe from sats@gte.net Sun Jun 15 15:28:13 1997 Subject: Report on third rebuild. Well, after the disaster with the 6 1/2ft. two piece, I'm happy to reportthatmy 7ft 1in. three piece catches fish. It does have a strange action, but will put 4wt line out about where I'dexpectit to go. I've caught quite a few fish on it so far and am satisfied with it. The action is slow, but once I get in tune with the rod it works great. I didn't really do anything different to this rod, other then take fourdifferent parts from four different rods and clean them up, cut them tothecorrect length and mount the hardware. Hope everyone's haveing a good spring. It's been fairly good here, but Ihavemissed J. Clark. at the local Fly fishing club meetings. I understand He'sbeenon the road, Fishing his bamboo in Colorado. Oh, In case I didn't mention, on my last weekend in Ocalla N.F. Bamboobeatgraphite about two or three to one... Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Jun 15 18:05:51 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23494 for Subject: Re: Morley Bros flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com wrote: I kind'a meant the value might be destroyed by any restoration work. Sorry I misunderstood. Ofcourse, if the rod has an old wet fly action or has loosen up over theyears, it might not fish well too. True. Some of the old actions were pretty sloppy. (I've owned some ofthem.) Don Burns Best regards,Reed from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Sun Jun 15 18:35:57 1997 0000 Subject: old cane and reels rods well i just got back from my g-parents with all the materials to build myfirst cane rods (BTW thanks John!) and to my surprise, my parents hadvisited an auction and picked me up 4 old cane rods and 3 old reels. here'sthe descriptions: RODS: 1. 8.5 footer 3 piece, 1 tip, nickel plated ferrules, nice finish, somewraps coming undone, red wraps and intermediates, a short, cigar sheetcorkgrip with the winding check extening over the end of the grip, and a metalslide band downlocking reel seat, no cracks or breaks, it has the name"Majestic" on it. 2. 9 ft. 3 piece, 1 tip, nickel plated ferrules, good finish, also red wrapsw/ intermediates, 1/2 wells grip with the same type of metal slide bandreelseat, no cracks or breaks, but no label 3. 9ft. 3 piece, 2 tips (1 broken) a really old and worn rod but has nodamage, with a VERY dark finish, wells grip, NS ferrules, and an old Agatestripper, the same reel seat as listed above 4. 9ft. 3 piece, 2 tips, good finish, looks like someone had alittle funwith all the wraps, each one consists of 4 colors, it is a bamboo rod, butthe rod is round, not a hex, it also has a sheet cork grip, with a windingcheck overlapping the front of the cork, and the same reel seat asdescribedabove, no name. REELS: 1. old "Sunnybrook" reel with an open design, wood handle, prettyold.....looks like a few i saw at the Musem of Fly Fishing 2. like the above but with the "Meisselbach" name and the number #280stamped on the bottom of the reel foot 3. an old pillar style multiplying reel, VERY small diameter (1 1/2 inches)with an old silk line on it, the name "Hendry" stamped on the reel foot andthen the patent dates, March 21, 1876 and July 10, 1886 also on the reelfoot. any info about the history and/or value would be appreciated, THANKS!!!!! Matt Leidermanmledier@postoffice.ptd.nethttp://home.ptd.net/~mleider/ from sall@eol.ime.net Sun Jun 15 22:34:10 1997 Subject: Re: Morley Bros RO>flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com wrote:RO>>RO>> I kind'a meant the value might be destroyed by any restoration work. RO>Sorry I misunderstood. RO>>OfRO>> course, if the rod has an old wet fly action or has loosen up over theRO>> years, it might not fish well too.RO>>RO>True. Some of the old actions were pretty sloppy. (I've owned some ofRO>them.) RO>> Don Burns RO>Best regards,RO>Reedto Reed and Don, Thanks for the reply. It is too late to worry about the value as Ialready stripped it down. It was in terrible shape, having beenrefinished at least once. The guides have been replaced as well. Thereis what appears to be an agate stripper and two very heavy bronze snakeguides. One has a double twist almost like a spring. The other guideswere chrome casting guides. I will let you know how it casts Mike from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Sun Jun 15 23:07:47 1997 0000 Subject: splitting trouble well i am finally begining to split my bamboo, but i'm having trouble withit....the section i'm using has a slight twist in it...this is causing mysplits to have one side which is at the correct angle, but the other side isat a REALLY sharp angle....is there any way to correct this, or should ijust try a different culm...THANKS!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffcie.ptd.net from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Jun 15 23:17:07 1997 Subject: Good Morning Grayrock Well with the help of a few Spike's onion rings - the unofficial isstarted - we have floated both days (sat & sun) fair fishing - Rainscheduled rods. On board - Bogart - Foster - Hall - Sheppard - Sam - JJ - Lyndi. Have a nice day at work - write soon Wayne from santiago@ricochet.net Mon Jun 16 01:12:33 1997 Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Well with the help of a few Spike's onion rings - the unofficial isstarted - we have floated both days (sat & sun) fair fishing - Rainscheduled onrods. On board - Bogart - Foster - Hall - Sheppard - Sam - JJ - Lyndi.Have a nice day at work - write soon Wayne rain or no rain this sounds wonderful. tonight i am tying flies andwatching fishing videos. that is about as close as i can get for themoment. have a great time and happy father's day to all you who havekids. leo from Wfenior@cris.com Mon Jun 16 07:33:02 1997 [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Hey Greyrockers... My wife and I stopped in yesterday, no one was in the shop. We went ver to Spike's at about 2:00 pm... was that you guys in there. We went fishing afterward and didn't stop back. (sorry) Wayne FeniorMidland MI On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Well with the help of a few Spike's onion rings - the unofficial isstarted - we have floated both days (sat & sun) fair fishing - Rainscheduled onrods. On board - Bogart - Foster - Hall - Sheppard - Sam - JJ - Lyndi. Have a nice day at work - write soon Wayne from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Mon Jun 16 07:35:29 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20816 for; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:35:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Hello Grayrockers, Sounds like a good time. My son (9 yr old) caught his first brookie on a dry fly on father's day, what a great gift!!! Wish I was there!!Plane some strips for me!Tom Well with the help of a few Spike's onion rings - the unofficial isstarted - we have floated both days (sat & sun) fair fishing - Rainscheduled onrods. On board - Bogart - Foster - Hall - Sheppard - Sam - JJ - Lyndi. Have a nice day at work - write soon Wayne from sall@eol.ime.net Mon Jun 16 07:54:12 1997 Subject: splitting trouble RO>well i am finally begining to split my bamboo, but i'm having troublewithRO>it....the section i'm using has a slight twist in it...this is causing myRO>splits to have one side which is at the correct angle, but the other sideisRO>at a REALLY sharp angle....is there any way to correct this, or should iRO>just try a different culm...THANKS!! RO>Matt LeidermanRO>mleider@postoffcie.ptd.net RO>What method are you using Matt? I use a knife locked in a vise. Tape thetop of the knife so you do not cut yourself ! Make sure the blade isperpendicular to the cane and give one sharp tap on the knife holdingthe cane against the knife. Push the cane against the knife making surethat the enamel remains perpendicular to the blade and it wont give theangle you are talking about. It helps to split each cane in half asopposed to trying to take a small piece off a big piece. This works forme. Mike from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Mon Jun 16 09:58:55 1997 runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:59:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Straightening -Reply I had the same trouble with the lamps burning out. Being a Chef by tradeI found the best thing to use is a Streno canned heat. Light it and put thelid half on to control the flame. There is a company that makes a cannedheat with a wick but I don't have the name etc right now. If I find it I willsend it along. from rclutz@bedford.net Mon Jun 16 10:17:23 1997 bedford.netwith ESMTP (IPAD 1.52/64) id 3386000 ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:16:54EST Subject: unsubscribe from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Mon Jun 16 10:29:08 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17992 for; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:29:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Straightening -Reply I use a small oil lamp with oil with out any problems. I had the same trouble with the lamps burning out. Being a Chef by tradeI found the best thing to use is a Streno canned heat. Light it and put thelid half on to control the flame. There is a company that makes a cannedheat with a wick but I don't have the name etc right now. If I find it Iwillsend it along. Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from lblan@oeonline.com Mon Jun 16 17:12:16 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0wdjsA-00039YC; Mon, 16 Jun 97 18:03 EDT Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Have a nice day at work - write soonNow, that is really a low blow! Still don't know when/if I'll make it up. The week isn't shaping up at allwell.Tell Sam to quit messing around with those 17 inchers and find some realfish!Tell everyone I said hello.----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Good Morning GrayrockDate: Monday, June 16, 1997 12:16 AM Well with the help of a few Spike's onion rings - the unofficialisstarted - we have floated both days (sat & sun) fair fishing - Rainscheduled onrods. On board - Bogart - Foster - Hall - Sheppard - Sam - JJ - Lyndi. Have a nice day at work - write soon Wayne from EMiller257@aol.com Mon Jun 16 18:02:57 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock Rodmakers Gathering Cheryl, thanks for the reply. I showed it to my wife, Carla, whoimmediately was interested in the quilt store. We have also been to Hartwick Pines and itsagreat place to walk and hike. With help like yours, maybe we'll make thegettogethernext year. from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 16 18:27:36 1997 Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Well it could have been us - with only a couple days of fishing wehaven't pick up that trout smell yet - but we're working on it. from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 16 18:27:47 1997 Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Tom - Tell your son congrats - hope that you both enjoyed the experience from Global2u@aol.com Mon Jun 16 18:38:43 1997 Subject: Unsubscribe Please unscubscribe me. Thank you from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 16 18:42:36 1997 Subject: A Gray Day Well as predicted it rained on and off today - most did fish though withmixed results. There are a couple of rods being started in the clubhouse -hope to glue some sections tomorrow - Doug Hall is making a 6' 3" # 2 andTrent Sheppard is working on the same length but in a # 4 weight. Thetyingbench has been busy with several learning new techniques and there's abeerto be had if one is so inclined. The aprons are done and we are havingeveryone sign two - one will stay in the clubhouse for for whatever reason-the other is going to Luis along with a video that will try to capture thespirit of the next few days. The weather is expected to clear into tomorrow and it back to - fishon. There should be a few more faces onboard by then - Mike and Dennis aredue in by afternoon - Current patterns - brown drakes - no hex yet.Well social hour is about to begin so till we dock again - curls to you Wayne from mrj@seanet.com Mon Jun 16 19:20:32 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13012 for Subject: Re: splitting trouble Matt Leiderman wrote: well i am finally begining to split my bamboo, but i'm having troublewithit....the section i'm using has a slight twist in it...this is causing mysplits to have one side which is at the correct angle, but the other sideisat a REALLY sharp angle....is there any way to correct this, or should ijust try a different culm...THANKS!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffcie.ptd.net I have had this problem. I think that sometimes you will just have to gowith it and not worry about the angle. I mean you are going to plane itanyway right? After I split my bamboo I plane it as best as I can into a"square" rectangle and then go from there. I have built 6 rods and I amstarting with my worst bamboo and working up to the good stuff. Thestuff I am working with now has twists and curves and bends in it todifferent degrees. The more you split the easier it becomes. You caneither angle the knife or angle the bamboo to try and square the cut up.Just put pressure in the direction you want to go and don't go too fast.A thin knife may help as the split won't get too far ahead of you thatway.-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 17 08:31:33 1997 Subject: RE:A Gray Day RO> Well as predicted it rained on and off today - most did fish thoughwithRO>mixed results. RO> Well social hour is about to begin so till we dock again - curls toyoRO>Wayne Wayne and all, Enjoy - I hope to make it to next year's to-do! Don Burns PS - I made a run to the local magazine store and purchased a copy ofthe june Nat. Geo. - great story regarding Ol' Ironsides. I stillremember my 1st visit to see her back in the 1950's. Might be why yearslater I got to become a pre-commissioning crew member for the U.S.SCalifornia DLG(N)-36. So say "drink to the foam" (hi) to Luis from me. Also a great story about the Fox River from Nick Lyons. from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Tue Jun 17 08:45:14 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA03881 for; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:45:11 -0400 Subject: Re: splitting trouble Hi Matt,Martin offers sound advice, don't worry. it gets easier the more you do. well i am finally begining to split my bamboo, but i'm having troublewithit....the section i'm using has a slight twist in it...this is causing mysplits to have one side which is at the correct angle, but the other sideisat a REALLY sharp angle....is there any way to correct this, or should ijust try a different culm...THANKS!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffcie.ptd.net I have had this problem. I think that sometimes you will just have to gowith it and not worry about the angle. I mean you are going to plane itanyway right? After I split my bamboo I plane it as best as I can into a"square" rectangle and then go from there. I have built 6 rods and I amstarting with my worst bamboo and working up to the good stuff. Thestuff I am working with now has twists and curves and bends in it todifferent degrees. The more you split the easier it becomes. You caneither angle the knife or angle the bamboo to try and square the cut up.Just put pressure in the direction you want to go and don't go too fast.A thin knife may help as the split won't get too far ahead of you thatway.-- Martin Jensen Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Jun 17 09:43:39 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA267 0500 Subject: Restoration? help I need some advice. I'm new to the bamboo world, and have quietlyobserved the list for a few months. To introduce myself to some of theproperties of bamboo, I picked up a $20 project rod. I wanted it onlyas a practice piece. I've followed Wayne's suggestions, along withthose of Michael Sinclair. Let me describe the rod. Butt - 35 1/8"Mid - 32 1/8"Tip - 32 5/8" All distances are with ferrules removed. The rod had no reel seat, and most of the cork was missing. Therewereno markings of any kind. The butt ferrules were nickle-plated brass,but looked above average for these type. The tip ferrules looked likesolid brass.(Copper? Bronze?) There were no markings on the rod of anykind. What windings were left on the rod were a heavy, size D?, red. There were 3/8" wide intermediates from butt to tip, about every 21/2". Sounds like an old Japanese junk rod from the 40's or 50's.Here's what's thrown me. When I removed the ferrules from the midsection, I discovered a thin steel rod running the length of thesection. Closer observation shows that this steel rod runs the entirelength of the rod. Apparently the steel rod was covered with twothreads, one white, one brown, and the strips were glued to the rod togive strength. Definitely makes the thing heavy! I admit I'm new to this game, but have I got something here that Ineedto quit messing with? The last thing I want to do is mess up somethingthat has real worth. Any help you can give would be appreciated. Thanks, Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from harry37@epix.net Tue Jun 17 10:37:11 1997 LAA04825 Subject: Re: Straightening Wayne Fenior wrote: I've been reading the straightening posts and still have a question. What is everyone using for heat source? The Hoagy Carmichael book saystouse an alcohol lamp. (Haven't found one yet, and I did try one of the oilones with alcohol in it, but it kept burning out).Also tried the gas stove. That got the cane way to hot and soft, and I putan extra kink in. Also that delaminated a couple sections on the tip thatIhad to then fix. Wayne FeniorMidland MI Wayne, Clemens has one--it's in their catalog. Greg Kuntz from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 17 11:19:12 1997 Subject: RE:Restoration? help Harry, Regarding steel rods. I've never seen this "trick" before. Might be aJapanese rod - don't know. Was the metal rods run through the center of the sections or locatedalong one of the the cane strips? How's the action without these metalrods? IMHO, I doubt that the rod has much value - NPB ferrules leads me tobelieve this is a bottom-end rod and not going to be a collector'sspecial. So have at it. I'd try to finish the rod so that all sections end up the same lengthand figure your cost for adding a Pacific Bay reelseat and new cork gripwould be only few bucks. But action could be weird with or without steelrods. Might not be worth the trouble. I might just look for a cheapie 9'6" (3/2) production rod to turn into a2 piece 6'+ banty rod. Don B. from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Tue Jun 17 11:21:50 1997 0000 Subject: Re: splitting trouble At 09:43 AM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote:Hi Matt,Martin offers sound advice, don't worry. it gets easier the more you do. well i am finally begining to split my bamboo, but i'm having troublewithit....the section i'm using has a slight twist in it...this is causing mysplits to have one side which is at the correct angle, but the otherside isat a REALLY sharp angle....is there any way to correct this, or should ijust try a different culm...THANKS!! Matt Leidermanmleider@postoffcie.ptd.net I have had this problem. I think that sometimes you will just have to gowith it and not worry about the angle. I mean you are going to plane itanyway right? After I split my bamboo I plane it as best as I can into a"square" rectangle and then go from there. I have built 6 rods and I amstarting with my worst bamboo and working up to the good stuff. Thestuff I am working with now has twists and curves and bends in it todifferent degrees. The more you split the easier it becomes. You caneither angle the knife or angle the bamboo to try and square the cut up.Just put pressure in the direction you want to go and don't go too fast.A thin knife may help as the split won't get too far ahead of you thatway.-- Martin Jensen Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering well i tried the "putting the knife in a vise and pushing the cane through"trick and it worked great!! no problems..yet! i am planning all the stripsdown to the correct width, but there's no way i'm getting 24 strips fromtheculm 1/2 i'm using....probably will end up with about 18 strips, some ofthestrips didn't split too straight, and i had to discard a few...it's gettingthere!! today's challange.....STRAIGHTENING!!! thanks for the help! Matt Leiderman from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Tue Jun 17 11:27:45 1997 0000 Subject: pinned reel seat removal i'm just fixing up an old cane rod, not refinishing, just putting alittlevarnish on the wraps, and i noticed the reel seat is pinned in place, it isalso REALLY off alignment from the first guide, and is alittle loose....i'msure this question has been asked before, but i don't feel like killing theday searching through the archives....basiclly i want to remove the reelseat, so i can epoxy it back on with the correct alignment...how do i goabout getting the pin out?? haven't tried to do anything yet, for fear i'llsome how manage to ruin the reel seat...thanks for any help!! Matt Leiderman from mcreek@sirus.com Tue Jun 17 11:56:15 1997 Subject: Re: Good Morning Grayrock Hi -Hope the fishing is better by now. I'll be there thursday. Should Ijust ask for you at the fly factory? Brian from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Tue Jun 17 12:09:07 1997 97 08:56:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Restoration? help I'm not sure, but I believe Hardy offered a steel centered rod. The brassferrules are another indication that it may be a Hardy. (The butt ferrulewasprobably replaced.) Based on the section lengths, I'd say that this was a 9'rod with the butt full length and the mid and tips short. Just out of curioisity, is the cane hexagonal or has it been turned round? ---- -------------------------- I need some advice. I'm new to the bamboo world, and have quietlyobserved the list for a few months. To introduce myself to some of theproperties of bamboo, I picked up a $20 project rod. I wanted it onlyas a practice piece. I've followed Wayne's suggestions, along withthose of Michael Sinclair. Let me describe the rod. Butt - 35 1/8"Mid - 32 1/8"Tip - 32 5/8" All distances are with ferrules removed. The rod had no reel seat, and most of the cork was missing. Therewereno markings of any kind. The butt ferrules were nickle-plated brass,but looked above average for these type. The tip ferrules looked likesolid brass.(Copper? Bronze?) There were no markings on the rod of anykind. What windings were left on the rod were a heavy, size D?, red. There were 3/8" wide intermediates from butt to tip, about every 21/2". Sounds like an old Japanese junk rod from the 40's or 50's.Here's what's thrown me. When I removed the ferrules from the midsection, I discovered a thin steel rod running the length of thesection. Closer observation shows that this steel rod runs the entirelength of the rod. Apparently the steel rod was covered with twothreads, one white, one brown, and the strips were glued to the rod togive strength. Definitely makes the thing heavy! I admit I'm new to this game, but have I got something here that Ineedto quit messing with? The last thing I want to do is mess up somethingthat has real worth. Any help you can give would be appreciated. Thanks, Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 07:57:18-0700 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA267 0500 Subject: Restoration? help from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 17 12:34:35 1997 Subject: RE:pinned reel seat removal RO>how do i go about getting the pin out?? RO>Matt Leiderman Matt, The easiest way is to drive the pin in - not try to remove it. Justdrive far enough so that the spacer can come off. Then pull the pin outof the wood collet that's under the spacer. Epoxy and align the spacer. When epoxy is dry, put the pin back in. Don't use a tapered punch to drive the pin or you might open the holeup. Try a small drill bit and a plastic-faced hammer so you don't getmetal drill pieces flying into your eyes. Or Brownells (515-623-5401) sells a 0.039" starter punch (P/N080-513- 039) that's the cat's behind for this kind of work. Don B. from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 17 12:36:31 1997 Subject: Re: Restoration? help RO>I'm not sure, but I believe Hardy offered a steel centered rod. ThebrassRO>ferrules are another indication that it may be a Hardy. (The buttferrule wRO>probably replaced.) Based on the section lengths, I'd say that this wasa 9RO>rod with the butt full length and the mid and tips short. RO>Just out of curioisity, is the cane hexagonal or has it been turnedround?RO>------------------------------RO>Date: 6/17/97 8:01 AM Rich, I think you're right, I do seem to remember reading somewhere about someEnglish rods having steel centers. Don B. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Jun 17 13:52:30 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA82 0500 Subject: Re: Restoration? help flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com wrote: Harry, Regarding steel rods. I've never seen this "trick" before. Might be aJapanese rod - don't know. Was the metal rods run through the center of the sections or locatedalong one of the the cane strips? How's the action without these metalrods? IMHO, I doubt that the rod has much value - NPB ferrules leads me tobelieve this is a bottom-end rod and not going to be a collector'sspecial. So have at it. I'd try to finish the rod so that all sections end up the same lengthand figure your cost for adding a Pacific Bay reelseat and new cork gripwould be only few bucks. But action could be weird with or without steelrods. Might not be worth the trouble. I might just look for a cheapie 9'6" (3/2) production rod to turn into a2 piece 6'+ banty rod. Don B. Don, Thanks for the input. The steel rod, assuming it is steel, runsthrough the center of all six strips, from butt all the way to the tiptop. I've certainly never heard of that from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Jun 17 13:54:30 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA104 0500 Subject: Re: Restoration? help Rich Margiotta wrote: I'm not sure, but I believe Hardy offered a steel centered rod. The brassferrules are another indication that it may be a Hardy. (The butt ferrulewasprobably replaced.) Based on the section lengths, I'd say that this was a9'rod with the butt full length and the mid and tips short. Just out of curioisity, is the cane hexagonal or has it been turned round?----- -------------------------Date: 6/17/97 8:01 AM From: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I need some advice. I'm new to the bamboo world, and have quietlyobserved the list for a few months. To introduce myself to some of theproperties of bamboo, I picked up a $20 project rod. I wanted it onlyas a practice piece. I've followed Wayne's suggestions, along withthose of Michael Sinclair. Let me describe the rod. Butt - 35 1/8"Mid - 32 1/8"Tip - 32 5/8" All distances are with ferrules removed. The rod had no reel seat, and most of the cork was missing. Therewereno markings of any kind. The butt ferrules were nickle-plated brass,but looked above average for these type. The tip ferrules looked likesolid brass.(Copper? Bronze?) There were no markings on the rod of anykind. What windings were left on the rod were a heavy, size D?, red.There were 3/8" wide intermediates from butt to tip, about every 21/2". Sounds like an old Japanese junk rod from the 40's or 50's.Here's what's thrown me. When I removed the ferrules from the midsection, I discovered a thin steel rod running the length of thesection. Closer observation shows that this steel rod runs the entirelength of the rod. Apparently the steel rod was covered with twothreads, one white, one brown, and the strips were glued to the rod togive strength. Definitely makes the thing heavy!I admit I'm new to this game, but have I got something here that Ineedto quit messing with? The last thing I want to do is mess up somethingthat has real worth. Any help you can give would be appreciated. Thanks, Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------Received: by cpqm.saic.com with ADMIN;17 Jun 1997 07:56:14 -0800Return-Path: Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by cpmx.mail.saic.com; Tue, 17 Jun 9707:57:18-0700 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA267 0500Message-Id: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:44:51 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Harry Boyd, Jr." Subject: Restoration? helpMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN The cane is hexagonal, except where it has been turned for ferrules andreall seat, obviously. from bjcoch@arkansas.net Tue Jun 17 14:41:24 1997 mail.anc.net (8.7.6/SCO5) with SMTP id TAA07707 for; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:41:20 GMT Subject: Re: pinned reel seat removal Matt Leiderman wrote: varnish on the wraps, and i noticed the reel seat is pinned in place, it isalso REALLY off alignment from the first guide, and is alittleloose.....how do i goabout getting the pin out?? haven't tried to do anything yet, for fear i'llsome how manage to ruin the reel seat...thanks for any help!! Matt Leiderman The correct tool to use is a drift pin punch. You can find them at the localhardware store most likely. Be sure to get one that is the same size as thepin or a little smaller so that you will not harm the cane. use a lighthammer and go slow and carefully. Bryant C. from penr0295@uidaho.edu Tue Jun 17 17:57:21 1997 PAA17200 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:57:15 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id PAA29777 for ; process doing -bs Subject: Introduction and Question I just joined the list this week, but have spent quite a bit of time inthe past month or two at the Rodmaker's website, reading the many tipsandgathering all the other information that is so useful to one who ispreparing to try his hand at cane rod building in the near future. I havealso manged to get almost halfway through the archive, and have certainlypicked up some useful information there as well. I have read theGarrison/Carmichael book several times, and have Mr. Cattanch's videoset on order (a friend is loaning me his book next week). In any case, my name is Thomas Penrose and I began fly fishingabout 25 years ago at age 5, although it is only been in the past coupleof years that it has become a truly earnest undertaking. I am currentlyemployed at the University of Idaho in Moscow as a part-time artinstructor--a job that is about to come to a close, and may see me headedto Bend, Oregon. As an artist, I am primarily a portrait painter,although lately I have been doing some still-life paintings of vintage flyfishing tackle. If anyone wants to take a look, I would surely appreciateany visits to my website at: http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/I am probably still a few months away from splitting my firstculm, but I have made some progress insofar as I have almost completed aGarrison binder. The one part that is left to complete is the threadtensioner discs. I have tried using a variety of washers for this, but sofar none have worked to my satisfaction (the binding cord either pops out from between the discs, or the feed of the cord is not as smooth as Iwould like). Are there actually discs manufactured to serve this purpose?I would appreciate any suggestions. Thomas PenroseUniversity of IdahoDept. of ArtMoscow, ID 83843 from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Jun 17 19:21:33 1997 Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:20:51 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Restoration? help On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com wrote: RO>I'm not sure, but I believe Hardy offered a steel centered rod. ThebrassRO>ferrules are another indication that it may be a Hardy. (The buttferrule wRO>probably replaced.) Based on the section lengths, I'd say that thiswas a 9RO>rod with the butt full length and the mid and tips short. RO>Just out of curioisity, is the cane hexagonal or has it been turnedround?RO>------------------------------RO>Date: 6/17/97 8:01 AM Rich, I think you're right, I do seem to remember reading somewhere aboutsomeEnglish rods having steel centers. Don B. It seems some Brit rodmakers did use steel centers. A person has askedme to do some restoration on an English rod he says has a steel centre. He dosn't know the brand and I haven't seen it yet but he assures me it's pre WWII from UK. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from Global2u@aol.com Tue Jun 17 19:40:34 1997 Subject: Unsubscribe I have tried several times to unsubscribe. I hope this works, or I will needto do something else. Thanks from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 17 20:15:16 1997 Subject: FS - Clemens "Custom Rod Thread Art" I have a copy of Dale Clemens "Custom Rod Thread Art" (1982) that I'dlike to sell for $23.00 (US$) including postage (in the USA only). PLEASE email me directly: flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Don Burns from lblan@oeonline.com Tue Jun 17 21:27:11 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0weAKq-0003SwC; Tue, 17 Jun 97 22:19 EDT Subject: Re: Introduction and Question Welcome to the list. You may find it a bit quiet, with many of the listmembers in Grayling, MI for the Rodmakers Gathering and Trout BumBarbeque.I will certainly take a look at your art. My vote for tensioners goes tothe ones sold by Dale Clemens Custom Tackle. I have used these tensionerson my rod wrapping lathe and binder (which works well despite a couple ofdisparaging comments by one of our more notorious list members). ----------From: Thomas Penrose Subject: Introduction and QuestionDate: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 6:57 PM I just joined the list this week, but have spent quite a bit of time inthe past month or two at the Rodmaker's website, reading the many tipsandgathering all the other information that is so useful to one who ispreparing to try his hand at cane rod building in the near future. Ihavealso manged to get almost halfway through the archive, and havecertainlypicked up some useful information there as well. I have read theGarrison/Carmichael book several times, and have Mr. Cattanch's videoset on order (a friend is loaning me his book next week). In any case, my name is Thomas Penrose and I began fly fishingabout 25 years ago at age 5, although it is only been in the past coupleof years that it has become a truly earnest undertaking. I am currentlyemployed at the University of Idaho in Moscow as a part-time artinstructor--a job that is about to come to a close, and may see meheadedto Bend, Oregon. As an artist, I am primarily a portrait painter,although lately I have been doing some still-life paintings of vintageflyfishing tackle. If anyone wants to take a look, I would surelyappreciateany visits to my website at: http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/I am probably still a few months away from splitting my firstculm, but I have made some progress insofar as I have almost completedaGarrison binder. The one part that is left to complete is the threadtensioner discs. I have tried using a variety of washers for this, butsofar none have worked to my satisfaction (the binding cord either popsout from between the discs, or the feed of the cord is not as smooth as Iwould like). Are there actually discs manufactured to serve thispurpose?I would appreciate any suggestions. Thomas PenroseUniversity of IdahoDept. of ArtMoscow, ID 83843 from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 17 21:42:43 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA18505 +0000 Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Global2u@aol.com wrote: I have tried several times to unsubscribe. I hope this works, or I willneedto do something else. I believe you need to unsubscribe at the following: listproc@mail.wustl.edu rather than to the list directly.Thanks from gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk Wed Jun 18 03:38:48 1997 [130.209.135.199] sender gqla14) by lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk (8.8.4/UK- 2.2a/cent-sparc) with SMTP id JAA01013 for; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:38:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Restoration? help Harry,I can confirm that Hardy did indeed make some steel centred rods. I have a copy of the 1937 Hardys Anglers Guide which has several of these rods in it, however I don't think there were any thread wraps between the steel and the bamboo. I'll have a look at the guide tonight and see if any of there rods look as if they match yours. from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Jun 18 07:23:34 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02477 for; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:25:41 -0400 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22152 for; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:23:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Introduction and Question Thomas Penrose wrote: I am probably still a few months away from splitting my firstculm, but I have made some progress insofar as I have almost completedaGarrison binder. The one part that is left to complete is the threadtensioner discs. I have tried using a variety of washers for this, but sofar none have worked to my satisfaction (the binding cord either popsout from between the discs, or the feed of the cord is not as smooth as Iwould like). Are there actually discs manufactured to serve thispurpose?I would appreciate any suggestions. Hi Thomas, Welcome to the list. I also tried washers for a while but went to thecatalogs to order my thread tension devices. I've used the ones fromClemmens and Anglers Workshop. Both work well, but the AnglersWorkshopones at $6.95 are almost half the price of Clemmens at $13.20. Good luckand have fun. -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jun 18 13:49:17 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11694) with SMTP id AAA165 0500 Subject: Re: Restoration? help gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk wrote: Harry,I can confirm that Hardy did indeed make some steel centred rods. Ihave a copy of the 1937 Hardys Anglers Guide which has several ofthese rods in it, however I don't think there were any thread wrapsbetween the steel and the bamboo. I'll have a look at the guidetonight and see if any of there rods look as if they match yours. I did some more detective work, and discovered a rod with a cablethrough the center to adjust the tension, and thus the action, in MartinKeane's "Classic Rods and Rodmakers". (Page 225). He asks, 'has anyoneever seen one?" I cannot say for sure that this is one of the rods heasks about, but my original questions remain unanswered. Is this worthholding on to? Should it be sent to someone who knows more? Or, shouldI use it for practice?I appreciate the opinions offered so far. I'm leaning towards makingthis a practice piece. Thanks for the input.Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Wed Jun 18 13:53:09 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 0547; Wed, 18 Jun 97 14:51:43 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 8594; Wed, 18 Jun1997 14:51:42 -0400Subject: Steel centers M. Sinclair's book on restoration mentioned cane rods withsteel centers were built in England at the turn of the century.Perry Frazer's book on Amateur Rodmaking, ca. 1914, also mentions them.They were apparently popular with several british rodmakers, and werebuilt by Hardy at least as early as 1889. Frazer's comment about themis telling...the method represents a "clumsy attempt to bolster up anarticle that evidentally needs heroic treatment." I guess he didn't thinkthis was such a great innovation. Frederic Halford in his 1902 book ondry fly fishing also mentioned this type of rod with an evaluation that wasless than enthusiastic, but then he didn't like American rods either,considered them to "whippy for our insular ideas and seem generally tolack backbone." My guess is he would have liked boron. Incidentally,Frazer also mention that there was one US maker who used steel centersin cane rods, but unfortuately he does not mention the name. Use ofbrass ferrules and lots of intermediates would suggest a british origin.Interesting thread. Bob. from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Jun 18 18:53:47 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRODMAKERS@WUGATE.WUSTL.EDU; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:53:43 MDT #19314) RODMAKERS@WUGATE.WUSTL.EDU; Wed, Subject: Recent posting Excuse me for taking up space with this. With Grayrock going at least weknow the list is working. Recently there was a post about a smallimpound- ment near Horsetooth Resvisor near Ft. Collins CO. I didn't save the infoCould the person who posted it contact off the list. Splitting, planing,fighting rain and mosquitoes, and catching fish but missing Greyrockjerry wy from nakayama@katri.kajima.co.jp Wed Jun 18 22:57:22 1997 (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/3.4W4) with ESMTP id MAA27931 for; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:57:03 +0900 (JST) SMTP id MAA02961 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 199712:57:02 +0900 (JST) katrigw.katri.kajima.co.jp (8.6.11+2.4W/3.4W3) with SMTP id MAA12103 Subject: Japanese Bamboo I presently use Tonkin Cane for my bamboo rod. Some Japaneseprofessionaland amateur rod builders use Japanese grown bamboo. I do not know theEnglish name and even scientific name of them. They are "Ma-dake, truebamboo", "Mon-chiku, speckled bamboo" and "Tan-chiku, pale bamboo " inJapanese and direct translation. Mon-chiku has dark brown speckledpatternon the culm and beautiful pattern remains on the surface after removingenamel layer. But internodes is short and diameter is small. Difficult tomake a long and heavy rod. The old Ma-dake, especially used for ceilingmaterial on fire place of old house for a long period, is called"Susu- dake, smoked bamboo". This bamboo has naturally smoked and heattreated. And very scarce and expensive.The species of bamboo affect the rod action as a natural result but theyare usable. Minoru NakayamaTokyo, JAPAN PS : Luis Marden recently has written a good book named "the angler'sBamboo". He introduces Tonkin very well. from gqla14@udcf.gla.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 04:19:25 1997 [130.209.135.199] sender gqla14) by lenzie.cent.gla.ac.uk (8.8.4/UK- 2.2a/cent-sparc) with SMTP id KAA12259 for; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:18:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Restoration? help Harry,I looked up the steel centered rods in my Hardy catalogue last night. I'm not sure if their description of their rods will be much use in identifying yours but at this time 1937 these rods were built with spiral "lockfast" ferrules. The female ferrule has an external thread, about 1.5 turns and the male has a small hooked extension which engages this thread holding the sections together. The rod is a "Gold Medal" fly rod, they were made with and without the steel centre. Here is what it says in the catalogue. "These tempered Spring-Steel Centred Rods are the most powerful produced, and are practicably indestructable. The steel is tempered so that it may be coiled up, and when released will spring back to the straight position. The tempered steel centre gives greater elasticity without adding much to the weight. This feature is of the utmost importance in casting against a wind, in which operation the whole life and energy of the rod must be thrown into the effort.The Gold Medale rods are suitable for general fly fishing, wet fly, dry fly or lake in any part of the world." SpecificationAction: Medium for general fly fishing.Pieces: Three with two tops. "Palakona" split bamboo.Handle: Cork Covered, plain shaped.Joints: Spiral "Lockfast"Rings: Butt and end agate; Intermediate "Fullopen" bridge.Tyings: Ordinary spaced narrow bands, Crimson silk.Reel fittings and furnishings: 8.5-11ft rods with "screw grip" and rubber "screw in button. The 8.5 ft rod has a 12 inch handle, weighs 6.5 oz and in 1937 cost eight pounds, three shillings and sixpence, about twelve dollars. I suspect it might be worth slightly more today.Hope this is of some help.John KennedyResearch TechnicianDepartment of SurgeryWestern InfirmaryGlasgow from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Thu Jun 19 07:29:03 1997 Subject: Re: Colorado from "dennis higham" at Jun 15, 97 11:05:18 am Dennis, thanks for the information. --mark Mark-Lots of good water that you can day-trip to. The Blue & the Arkansasare bothgood rivers. The South Platt or, if you don't mind a bit of a drive, SpinneyReservoir's back and fishing well. Spinney's a tailwaters with lots of bigrainbows - I fished it last fall and had a great time. If I could only fishoneplace I'd probably fish Cheeseman Canyon. The Canyon's beautiful and fulloffish. It's a bit of a hike in (about a mile - half uphill) but worth it. Thearea just below the canyon (Deckers,Co.) is great also and easy to get to...park your car and walk 50' to the river. Fish at Deckers, just upstreamofthe Bridge there's a flats that's usually got lots of good fish. There is aflyshop called Flies&Lies at Deckers owned by Dick Johnson. The phone#'s303-647-2237. Dick can tell you how to get there,what's happening andthe flydu-jour.If you decide to try the Frying Pan the Frying Pan Anglers # is 303-927-3441. Roy Palm can tell you what's happening.Good luck - have fun Regards Dennis --Mark M. Freed, Ph.DDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jun 19 16:33:44 1997 Subject: It's A Party (Dateline Grayrock) Well it's thursday and the food just left for The Love Bugs place - soGrayrock 97 is officially underway. Yesterday many list members did theJordan or perhaps the Jordan did in a few list members. Everyone caughtfish- and there is a better understanding of why I fish short rods. Severalchoseto stay behind to plane cane and hang out at the clubhouse - this morning afew parts got glued and with many arrivials the pods of conversation aredeveloping.Nothing rocket science have come out yet - but all appear to be havingagood time and the fishing hasn't been all that bad either.Well there are dogs to roast and stories to be told Wayne from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Thu Jun 19 18:36:17 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:36:14 MDT #19314) Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: Repost of Information Excuse me for asking for this information again. As the list is slow (with everyone at Greyrock) I hope everyone will oblige. A few days ago a question was asked about an impoundment near Horsetooth ReservoirnearFt. Collins CO. Ifailed to save the info so if whoever posted it wouldreply off list I would appericate it. Thanks in advancejerry from s.wang@cummins.com Fri Jun 20 17:03:19 1997 17:02:58 -0500 smap (3.2) (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/04Mar96-1128AM) 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: (no subject) test from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Jun 20 17:44:37 1997 (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA061956567; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:42:47 -0700 Subject: Shhhhh...... Did everyone go fishing? Macmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from penr0295@uidaho.edu Fri Jun 20 17:58:19 1997 PAA27048 for ; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:58:15 - with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id PAA29247 for ; process doing -bs Subject: Planing form filing guide Having read the chapter on making your own metal planing forms in WayneC's book, I think that I have a good understanding of everything exceptthe procedure used to file away the tapers on the metal stock. Inparticular, I can't picture what the wooden guide form would actually looklike. I understand that one starts with a 1"x4"x6" wooden block, and thatone saws a 60 degree angle onto the long (6") edge of the block. Afterthis point I get lost. I do not understand where I am supposed to saw the3/8"x1" wide undercut slot relative to the location of the 60 degree cutripped into the long edge of the block. Also, in what manner or attitudedoes the file rest against this 60 degree angle? I understand how havinga slot undercut into the bottom of the wooden guide form would allow theguide form to travel over the metal stock (which is resting in the 3/4"miter gauge slot on the table saw), but I guess I do not understand howthe file is making contact with the edge of the metal stock. Wouldcertainly appreciate some help in clarifying this, and I appologize ifthis is a dumb question.ALSO: has anyone built a set of final forms using the triangular filemethod that Wayne first suggested some time ago? As I understand thismethod, one could even use Bruce Connor's instructions for making woodenforms, only instead of using wood one would use CRS and instead of a 60degree thread cutting blade one would use a 60 degree file epoxied to apiece of nylon or plexiglass??? Thomas PenroseUniversity of IdahoDept. of ArtMoscow, ID 83843 from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jun 21 05:30:26 1997 Subject: Re: Japanese Bamboo Minoru - Thank you for the information on Japanese cane. I also have LuisMarden's book, and agree it is very informative. It is 6:00 AM on SaturdayasI write this and I am preparing to leave for a mountain stream inPennsylvania, which is about 2 hours from my home. It is becomingsummer hereand today will be quite hot. The stream is in a deep canyon and remainscoolin the summer and is one of my favorite places to fish. It is known forlargewild fish, but is difficult to fish because of the rough landscape and clearwater. The fish can often see or hear you coming. I have a copy of Luis Marden's original article on bamboo in " The NationalGeographic" and would be happy to send it to you if you are interested. --Tom from 102130.461@compuserve.com Sat Jun 21 06:06:54 1997 Subject: AuSable Hatch Report THE FLY FACTORY'S HATCH REPORT FOR FRIDAY, JUNE 20 *** BROWN DRAKE ALERT!!! *** *** HEX ADVISORY !!! *** NOTE: Folks, I apologize for not getting this update out in a more timely manner. This is the week of the Trout Bum Bar-B-Q [TBBBQ] and the RODMAKERS AT GRAYROCK, a gathering of cane rod builders. They began gathering more than a week ago and both attendance and the intensity of the events has been building all week. It all climaxes withthe actual Bar-B-Q here on Saturday night. Between fishing, 'entertaining' and camaraderie there has not been much time for keeping up with business [or sleep!!]. So, for this week, a late and abbreviated E-Mail Hatchline Report. Things[including the hatch updates and weekly E-Mail] should return more tonormal next week. Steve SouthardTHE FLY FACTORY The AuSable River's ORINGINAL Fly Shop & Guide ServiceI-75 business Loop @ the AuSable River Bridge200 Ingham * P.O. Box 709, Grayling, Michigan 49738(517) 34-5844 24 hr. Hatchline & Fax (517) 348-7108e-mail: steves@freeway.netwebsite [under construction]: http://www.troutbums.com - BRIEF SCHEDULE OF UPCOMING EVENTS -- * Friday/Saturday, June 21& 22 - Cane RODMAKERS Gathering '97 on the grounds at The Fly Factory * Saturday, June 21 - TBBBQ '97: The Original TroutBum Bar-B-Q on the grounds at The Fly Factory; still a few tickets available. * Saturday, June 28 - Women's Introduction to Fly-Fishing with Dorothy Schramm * Saturday, June 28, 9 PM to ??? - The Fly Factory's Midnight Hex Madness * Friday, July 4 - Introduction to Basic Fly-Casting * Saturday/Sunday, July 12 & 13 - Two-day Introduction to Fly-Fishing -- STREAM CONDITIONS -- All streams sections are either at normal levels or are below normallevels and clear. Some of the sections that are lower than normal are extremely clear. All stream sections are fishable!! Essentially, we have already reached summer stream conditions. We got a little rain viathundershowers this morning and, though we have a good ground water charge - from snowpack and a good gradual melt off - the woods are still pretty dry and the streams continue to drop and clear. We need some additional rain to wet the woods and reduce the fire danger, which has been high for the past couple of weeks and remains so. Water temps cooled a bit late last week and early this week after a front moved through, followed by clear skies and cold temperatures overnight. With the clear skies, air [and water] temps dropped quickly after dark during the past week, so surface feeding activity cut off right about dark and the larger fish never got moving. Morning water temps have fallen back to the mid 50's and late afternoon water temps in the low to mid 60's. Things have begun to warm up a bit as warmer weather has moved in; we're currently hot & muggy for the next couple of days to be followed by hot & dry. Overnight air temps are to remain in the 50's and 60's -- the kind of weather we need for the drakes and hex. -- HATCH ACTIVITY -- The olive caddis [#12-16]and tan caddis [#14] are hatching strongly now, with lots of both caddis coming off at and after dark and also some earlyin the morning before the sun gets high in the sky. Sporadic caddis coming off throughout the day. Very small [#20-22] slate-winged olives in the morning and then again in the evening. With the caddis active throughout the day, Royal trudes and sparkle trudes [#12-14] have been a good daytime attractor pattern. You can also fish a soft-hackled wet fly [like a partridge & peacock] during the day when you see the caddis hatching and no surface feeding activity. Try rigging upwith a beadhead nymph "down" [on the end of your line] and a soft-hackle on a dropper, up 12-18" from the beadhead. If fishing a caddis dry fly,"skitter" it a bit to attract attention. Alternatively, try trailing a caddisemerger or soft-hackle from the bend of the hook of the dry, about 12-18" behind; treat the trailing dropper with leader sink. There have March Browns [#12] and Sulphurs [#16-18] and Light Cahills [#12-16] for sometime. These light bodied mayflies are a great hatch to fish - at dusk in the "sweet" time of the evening; Roberts Drake [#14-18] can be very effective. These light bodied mayflies will continue, even as the brown drakes and hex begin to flourish. In some river sections we are also seeing good numbers of yellow [or "green"] stones [#12-14], a few larger stones [#8-10] and an occasional "giant" stone [similar to the western "salmon fly"] that run up size 2-4. We've had some success 'skittering' larger stones [#6+] during the daylight when nothing else is working and also near dark. Yellow [dry] skunks have moved fish during the past few days. The brown drakes got started almost 10 days ago, but then shut down when cooler temps moved in. Certainly, conditions are again becoming right for the brown drakes and we are going to be seeing plenty of them very soon ---- perhaps tonight -- as the hot, muggy weather moves in and the water temps push into the mid 60's and beyond. There are also decent numbers of big "mahoganies". These bugs range size 10-12 [primarily 12] and are a very dark reddish-brown. When the spinners hit the water, generally near dark, they can be tough to see with their very dark body color and clear wing. the trout will sometimes go "selective" on these bigger flies, to the exclusion of larger numbers of sulphur duns and spinners. Keep an eye out for them!! Hex flies hatched with a vengeance on Lake Margrethe [just west of town] two nights ago. This is a good precursor to the hex hatch getting started on the streams within the next couple of days. Look for hex action to get started soon!!! There can be a real 'pot pouri' [big assortment!] of bugs active at dark [including mosquitoes!!]. It can be tough to identify which of the insects the fish are feeding on. Look closely and use a net seine to identifywhich fly to use; carry a bunch of different flies!!!! [it's good for business] AND there is a decent chance that we may see some showers Friday and Saturday. Heavy overcast and rain can bring bigger browns out to cruise [that normally stay very close to cover in the daylight hours]. They come out to pick up minnows and smaller fish dislodged by increased flows caused by the rain. Get out and fish in that rain!!! --- using zonkers, sculpins, matukas, muddlers, etc. We like using a sinking leader system - which we have diagrammed on our board in the shop -- rather than a split shot or a sink tip line. It is very versatile, easier to cast and isresistant to getting hung up on the bottom. -- WEATHER -- Fri: partly sunny, scattered t'shwrs; 80-85; overnight lows 60-65Sat: parly sunny, scattered t'shwrs; 80; overnight low 55-60Sun: dry; mid 70's - low 80's; overnight low 50-55Mon: dry; upper 70's - mid 80'sTue: dry; 80's from jmeier@bright.net Sat Jun 21 07:38:03 1997 sparticus.bright.net (8.8.5/8.8.8.5/FNG) with SMTP id HAA02498 for Subject: test Testing. If this had been a real emergency you would have heard screamingand crying. from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Jun 21 11:13:26 1997 Subject: Drizzle In Grayrock Well it's another GRAY day in Grayrock - the weather is drizzling - butthe temps have stayed up and the HEX started last night on the mill pond -It's been a good week with several getting rod sections glued and muchfishing - The Compuserve group is getting a little slow by this time - thisyears highlight is the inflatable sheep - send in by the Scottish connectionand yes it does have all the parts. Fish On Wayne from bc940@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Jun 21 15:17:51 1997 OAA14748; Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:17:46 -0600 Subject: Taper Mail I tried emailing Tapermail yesterday. Got a response today that the mailwas not able to be delivered. Is there something wrong at the server endand is Taper Mail still available? -- from Leessinker@aol.com Sat Jun 21 23:09:28 1997 Subject: Re: Planing form filing guide boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.12073.emout07.mail.aol.com.866952535" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.12073.emout07.mail.aol.com.866952535 Attached is a file that shows a file jig, don't remember where I obtainedit from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Jun 22 10:03:53 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Planing form filing guide In a message dated 6/21/97 11:54:40 AM, penr0295@uidaho.edu (ThomasPenrose)wrote: Tom - I built a set of steel forms some time ago using the triangle filemethod. First, do the drilling and tapping and assemble the forms. Drawfilethe top and bottom level. Open the forms to a uniform gap. You can roughfilesimply by bending the tang and handle of a triangle file upward and havingatit. Work from the tip to the butt, establishing a taper by takingcontinuously shorter strokes. For the finish work break off a 3-4 inchpieceof the file, and epoxy it to a wood block. If desired you can glue plexiglassstrips next to the file so the block slides easier. Determine the width ofthe file, and set the width of the gap in the forms in such a way the theproper depth is achieved when the block contacts the form. Remember thatthewidth and depth of the groove are different, and be careful not to cut thetip end too deep, which is easy to do. Work slowly and measure carefully and you should do fine. -- TomSmithwick from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Jun 22 17:00:46 1997 Subject: Grayrock 98 Sitting in Vic Edwards garage last night (post TTBBBQ III) an ideaDAWNED. Perhaps driven by a. b. - whatever. Understand - TTBBBQ has atwofold purpose. The first is to bring together the many that share thefellowship of the area however you define that. But - as importantly it hasbeen the intent that the local streams would realize benefit in the end aswell. With that in mind - ' The Makers Rod 98 ' !! A group of RODMAKERS with the help of others seriously interested insupporting local stream improvement efforts will present for the fundraisingeffort of TTBBBQ the following: A custom bamboo fly rod with accessories.A 7' 6" # 4 weight - 2 tip bamboo fly rod by the RODMAKERSA custom tooled and dyed leather rod caseA custom stitched rod sack by Dorothy SchrammA uniquely elegent Briarwood reelA one of a kind custom fly line designed by Bruce Richards andproduced by 3-M Scientific Angler The custom bamboo fly rod will be made as follows:Each strip of the rod will be made by a different maker. The strips willbe reflective of that makers established 'character'. Then during thefinishing stages the maker of each strip will sign his ( or her) work. O.K. - Help me out here - the above should explain the intent - a planis this - given the support - the rod will be a 2 or 3 piece (18 or 24makers) with some special fittings (a signed reelseat by Al Bellinger orREC). The end result would be an expression of the spirit of this list andrepresent a truely unique piece of angling history. I am personally invitingALL to take part - a second rod could be produced (perhaps a 6' 3" # 3weight) if needed to create a set.The gears are set in motion - will you help??????? WayneGrayrock 97 from jonrc@atlantic.net Sun Jun 22 19:09:04 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15919 for; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:13:55 -0400 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA11247 for; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:08:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: The custom bamboo fly rod will be made as follows:Each strip of the rod will be made by a different maker. The stripswillbe reflective of that makers established 'character'. Then during thefinishing stages the maker of each strip will sign his ( or her) work. O.K. - Help me out here - the above should explain the intent - a planis this - given the support - the rod will be a 2 or 3 piece (18 or 24makers) with some special fittings (a signed reelseat by Al Bellinger orREC). The end result would be an expression of the spirit of this list andrepresent a truely unique piece of angling history. I am personallyinvitingALL to take part - a second rod could be produced (perhaps a 6' 3" # 3weight) if needed to create a set.The gears are set in motion - will you help??????? WayneGrayrock 97 Wayne, Great idea, count me in. I've never been able to make the trip toGrayrock, but have been there in spirit with all of you. This is a way Ican contribute and I'd enjoy taking part. -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from russett@bcn.net Sun Jun 22 19:21:38 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA21971 for Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Sitting in Vic Edwards garage last night (post TTBBBQ III) an ideaDAWNED. Perhaps driven by a. b. - whatever. Understand - TTBBBQ has atwofold purpose. The first is to bring together the many that share thefellowship of the area however you define that. But - as importantly ithasbeen the intent that the local streams would realize benefit in the endaswell. With that in mind - ' The Makers Rod 98 ' !! A group of RODMAKERS with the help of others seriously interestedinsupporting local stream improvement efforts will present for the fundraisingeffort of TTBBBQ the following: A custom bamboo fly rod with accessories.A 7' 6" # 4 weight - 2 tip bamboo fly rod by the RODMAKERSA custom tooled and dyed leather rod caseA custom stitched rod sack by Dorothy SchrammA uniquely elegent Briarwood reelA one of a kind custom fly line designed by Bruce Richards andproduced by 3-M Scientific Angler The custom bamboo fly rod will be made as follows:Each strip of the rod will be made by a different maker. The stripswillbe reflective of that makers established 'character'. Then during thefinishing stages the maker of each strip will sign his ( or her) work. O.K. - Help me out here - the above should explain the intent - a planis this - given the support - the rod will be a 2 or 3 piece (18 or 24makers) with some special fittings (a signed reelseat by Al Bellinger orREC). The end result would be an expression of the spirit of this list andrepresent a truely unique piece of angling history. I am personallyinvitingALL to take part - a second rod could be produced (perhaps a 6' 3" # 3weight) if needed to create a set.The gears are set in motion - will you help??????? WayneGrayrock 97 Wayne I would be very interested in making one of the strips for theabove rod.... save my e mail address and get me a taper... will getright to work on it. Larry Russett from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sun Jun 22 20:08:20 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:07:31 MDT #19314) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: Japanese Bamboo Tom Which issue of National Geographic was Luis's article in? Thanks inadvance.jerry from mcreek@sirus.com Sun Jun 22 20:49:06 1997 Subject: Re: It's A Party (Dateline Grayrock) YAWN, Burp, Stretch, Yawn Some More, Curse Creatively -My first Grayrock Gathering is behind me (along with a lot of emptybeer cans and coffee cups), and I'm sorry everyone couldn't have beenthere. It was a genuine treat to meet the faces behind ourruminations. And knowing something of the personalities and tastesbefore-hand was really fun.We cast some outstanding rods, lines (there was this exquisite 6 wt.silk line Reed had come across that I tried unsuccessfully to part him from in particular), and reels. I got all the sections for my elusivefirst rod rough planed and cooked, learned some helpful tricks, andfished about 14 hours over three days. Caught browns, brookies, andbows and never mind how big. Did I mention we got to cast some choicerods?The food was good, Biondo makes fabulous beer (though not in greatenough quantities for our blatant piggish greed), and the rivers arestunning (but I am biased as this is pretty much home water for me.) Itwould have been nice if there were more cool flyrods for me to grope, soif you were on the fence as to coming or not and fell off the "not"side, you should really try to make it next year.A big thank you to Wayne and everyone who organized the event andwhoso freely shared their knowledge (and were even freer with theiropinions, yuk!), with me. Everyone learned something, and there werethese really boss rods we got to play with, as I may have aluded toabove.Hope to have a couple of rods done to take next year for us to playwith. Brian P.S. - Reed - If, God-forefend, you should come upon hard times in thenext year I'd be happy to buy that line and even the reel, for thatmatter. from richjez@enteract.com Sun Jun 22 21:59:53 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 Interesting idea. It kind of reminds me of the Johnny Cash song, "One Pieceat a Time." Thanks for the help Rich Jezioro At 06:00 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote:Sitting in Vic Edwards garage last night (post TTBBBQ III) an ideaDAWNED. Perhaps driven by a. b. - whatever. Understand - TTBBBQ has atwofold purpose. The first is to bring together the many that share thefellowship of the area however you define that. But - as importantly ithasbeen the intent that the local streams would realize benefit in the end aswell. With that in mind - ' The Makers Rod 98 ' !! A group of RODMAKERS with the help of others seriously interested insupporting local stream improvement efforts will present for the fundraisingeffort of TTBBBQ the following: A custom bamboo fly rod with accessories.A 7' 6" # 4 weight - 2 tip bamboo fly rod by the RODMAKERSA custom tooled and dyed leather rod caseA custom stitched rod sack by Dorothy SchrammA uniquely elegent Briarwood reelA one of a kind custom fly line designed by Bruce Richards andproduced by 3-M Scientific Angler The custom bamboo fly rod will be made as follows:Each strip of the rod will be made by a different maker. The stripswillbe reflective of that makers established 'character'. Then during thefinishing stages the maker of each strip will sign his ( or her) work. O.K. - Help me out here - the above should explain the intent - a planis this - given the support - the rod will be a 2 or 3 piece (18 or 24makers) with some special fittings (a signed reelseat by Al Bellinger orREC). The end result would be an expression of the spirit of this list andrepresent a truely unique piece of angling history. I am personallyinvitingALL to take part - a second rod could be produced (perhaps a 6' 3" # 3weight) if needed to create a set.The gears are set in motion - will you help??????? WayneGrayrock 97 *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /||/______/_||_________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > /\ > from brookside.rod@juno.com Sun Jun 22 22:16:49 1997 23:14:40 EDT Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 Sitting in Vic Edwards garage last night (post TTBBBQ III) an ideaDAWNED. Perhaps driven by a. b. - whatever. Understand - TTBBBQ has a twofold purpose. The first is to bring together the many that share thefellowship of the area however you define that. But - as importantly it hasbeen the intent that the local streams would realize benefit in the end aswell. With that in mind - ' The Makers Rod 98 ' !! A group of RODMAKERS with the help of others seriously interested insupporting local stream improvement efforts will present for the fund raisingeffort of TTBBBQ the following: A custom bamboo fly rod with accessories.A 7' 6" # 4 weight - 2 tip bamboo fly rod by the RODMAKERSA custom tooled and dyed leather rod caseA custom stitched rod sack by Dorothy SchrammA uniquely elegent Briarwood reelA one of a kind custom fly line designed by Bruce Richards andproduced by 3-M Scientific Angler The custom bamboo fly rod will be made as follows:Each strip of the rod will be made by a different maker. The strips willbe reflective of that makers established 'character'. Then during thefinishing stages the maker of each strip will sign his ( or her) work. O.K. - Help me out here - the above should explain the intent - a planis this - given the support - the rod will be a 2 or 3 piece (18 or 24makers) with some special fittings (a signed reelseat by Al Bellinger orREC). The end result would be an expression of the spirit of this list andrepresent a truely unique piece of angling history. I am personally invitingALL to take part - a second rod could be produced (perhaps a 6' 3" # 3weight) if needed to create a set.The gears are set in motion - will you help??????? WayneGrayrock 97 Wayne: I'd love to contribute a strip for a "makers rod" to be used to raisefunds for stream conservation et. al. If you are going to attend thisyears rod makers meeting in the Catskills in September we could talkabout it there. I understand that you are going to be in my area in October teaching rodbuilding at "The Quiet Sports" fly shop in Canton Ct. Perhaps I can joinyou after school and talk rods over our favorite malted beverages. Best regards; Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 from brookside.rod@juno.com Sun Jun 22 22:24:39 1997 23:23:20 EDT Subject: Re: Japanese Bamboo Tom Which issue of National Geographic was Luis's article in? Thanks in advance.jerry Jerry: Saw your message posted on thr rod makers forum. Look for volume 158, number 4; October 1980 National Geographic. Mardins' article starts on page 502. It's very well done you'll enjoyit. Best regards; Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Jun 23 03:30:08 1997 JAA22730 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:34:31+0100 Subject: Re: soggy rods Terry Ackland wrote to John Cooper: John, I have just finished reading an old posting of yours on the rodmakerslist archives. Very good, sorry you had no real response, I guessed asmuchbefore I started to to scroll down the list. What you must understand is that the list is based on the Garrison bookandthe belief in the book is absolute! If one builds a rod as per the bookusing the processes described it is not possible to construct a good rod. The problem is,is that in North America they gave up their cane rodsyearsbefore us Brits did so there are few anglers that relly understand cane The computer generated tapers that are touted, the super accuracy thatsomebelieve make a good rod to me is crap, what makes a good rod is is howthecane is processed! I feel that the rods being produced today are visually stunning but willthey stand up to the punishment that was expected back when bamboowas theonly tool? I visited a Show in Pennsylvania a couple of years ago during a really hotstormy humid priod. There were many rods built by the 'book' and none ofemwas straight. This proved to me that the required finish should be morethanjust multiple coats of soft varnish. I get on the list from time to time but get into trouble with the Gurus. Ido not have that much time, I am pretty busy with the rods and this timeofthe year I like to get out sailing(plastic). Take a look at my web sitehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon Regards, Terry Ackland Terry Looked at your web page. Lots of common sense there, and your surface- onlyimpregnation technique sounds as though it might be important. What doyouimpregnate with? Will anyone be smart enough to realise that this mightjustbe the most significant [change] to cane-making technique since hex wasinvented? NB: I did say MIGHT. Is your method a secret Terry, or are youable/willing to tell us how you do it? I hope you will not mind - I'm replying to your mailing direct to me viaRodmakers, because this subject is very important, and I think it might beuseful for others to look again at the question of surface finishes. Youpicked up on my original mailing because it struck a cord with you. As yousay, there were few other takers (the redoubtable Aussie Young, andquick-witted Californian Don Burns being notable exceptions). I can't quiteunderstand how there can be 956 deeply considered postings on thesubjectof Hoch blades, when something as far reaching and fundamental asvarnish-induced cane deterioration goes by without so much a raisedeyebrow. The modern deep and smooth and even school of rod finishers might wellbeusing materials better than the old 'copal' crap. But, even so, I'm utterlyconvinced from my enquiries at the best manufacturers that the moisturegoesinto the wood through hygroscopic porosity - then stays there, resulting ineventual deterioration of the material, and the action. What amazed me most, was the improvement available through completedryingof the cane. I'd always thought that soggy cane was quite beyond any dutyother than hanging on the wall. I have discovered that (at least) some areredeemable. I have also found in my restoration work that the darker, harder bakedcane,has generally remained more 'steely' and sog-free than the pale, blondexamples. What more is that longer baking achieving? Such rods arecertainlymore brittle, but soggy rods are less than useless. We know now empirically that given exposure to water, either as a liquidoras water vapour, the moisture content of our rods WILL rise, no matterwhatwe do to avoid it. What we need now is a scientist-type, who can tell uswhether we should be ladling on more defence (varnish?) or less defence,toallow the retained moisture to evaporate out of the cane when presentedwiththe right conditions to do so. Perhaps there exists in the mind of somegenius, some varnish concoction that will work like Goretex, allowing nowater in, but allowing the microscopic droplets of water vapour out. I'm trying to summon up the courage to semi-impregnate a rod with theyachtcoating with the phonetic name of Dec Sol Ya, which is made somewhereinScanderwegia. The finish works well on boats that sit in the water allyear,so it damned-well ought to work on a rod that gets temporarily wet tentimesa year. It is sort of shiny when buffed, without actually being glossy. It'swater-like in consistency, and it takes about fifteen (2 minute) coats tofill the absorbent surface of mahogany, so probably less on our cane. Infact, having now just written about it, I'm resolved to complete a rod withthe stuff - starting this evening. Soggy rods Now here's a thing. I bought a bedraggled little 8' # 5 made circa 1950 byMilwards of Redditch (famous old British rod-maker: sadly defunct). Todescribe it as bedraggled is nothing more than a salesman's over-sell: itwas DEAD. I bought it for pennies, for the nice N/S fittings. It was SOGGY- that is - it stayed set (partially) in any curve I cared to put impart. BUT (you know how it is) I stripped off the varnish of ages, and all thefittings, and found nice flamed cane underneath. I then left it in a corner WELL: for some reason, after that week the rod was very much 'springier',soI decided to give it a chance, and hung it in the boiler (furnace) room. To cut a six week story short, the rod is now back to new. Removing allthecrap and drying out the cane has transformed it. Once the sections werestraightened they remained straight. There is no set, and the rod has asuperb sprung-steel feel. Who's the expert on this? Was the old varnish keeping in moisture? If so,why hadn't the cane/glue deteriorated beyond recall? Were the 1,487coats ofbrown varnish supporting the imposed bend, and not allowing the rod torecover straightness? I'm now convinced that heavily varnished rods are prone to sets. I'm not atall clear about what is going on between the cane and the varnish to causethis effect, but I am now also quite convinced that minimally wrapped andvarnished rods maintain their straightness for longer: always assumingthatthe varnish is still intact and waterproof, and bearing in mind that allvarnishes are to a greater or lesser extent, hygroscopic (I think that's theword - they let in moisture). I also sail my own classic XOD class wooden yacht. We noticed that evenwhen drieddown to about 8% moisture content, then fully encapsulated with epoxy(WESTsystem) the wood underneath was back to 25% water content within twoyears.Moreover, boats that were not encapsulated were able to dry out whenconditions allowed. Encapsulated boats stayed wet. Aha - could this FACTapply also to rods made of wood-like giant grass? An engineer would probably be able to explain the phenomenon quite easily.Iexpect he would tell us that we elect to use our highly processed Tonkincane for its outstanding structural and engineering ability. He would askwhy on earth we should expect common-o-garden varnish to have the sameabilities to recover from the stretching and compression loads imposed onthe cane. He might tell us that ten heavy coats of varnish on a the buttsection of a very stiff (thick) rod might not be all that obvious, but thatthe same ten coats of varnish on a thin fly rod tip would change the actionof the rod completely. My degree was not maths based, so what follows may be total head up tail each (brushed) coat of varnish is (0.00175") 1.75 thousandths of an inchthick (maybe it isn't), then we multiply that by 10 (ten coats) and becauseit is on both sides of the rod we multiply by 2 then we arrive at an overallthickness of varnish of .035" A #6 fly rod tip might typically be .075" indiameter. It seems then that the varnish (in this extreme case) can amountto an increase of over 46% in the diameter of the rod - and this 46% inun-structural (maybe it is) heavy varnish. More typically, and for the sake of charity, let us assume that eachvarnishcoat is only (0.0016") 1.60 thousandths of an inch thick, then we multiply we arrive at a varnish thickness of 0.0256". The butt section of 9' # 8type rod might typically be 0.30". In this case there is an increase in thediameter of the rod by 8.5% in un-structural, heavy varnish. These calculations are very naive, probably also ill-conceived. There'sbound to be more to the whole business than these bare figures. Ourengineerfriend would probably offer a more complex explanation. Because basic engineering law tells us that it is the outermost part (thesurface) of the rod that confers most of its rigidity (the core of the roddoes little to add stiffness) it is possible that a very hard coat ofvarnish might even have a stiffening effect on a rod's action.Nevertheless,experience demonstrates that multiple coats of aged varnish produceun-helpful effects. It seems to me that the most likely thing is that there are effects fromboth the varnish and the retained moisture, and that (as in the case of mypoor little Milwards) in extreme cases these effects can render a caneshaftnear to useless. Am I talking total garbage? You can talk plainly to me. John Cooper (England) from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jun 23 07:41:03 1997 Subject: Re: Japanese Bamboo Jerry - The article is in the October 1980 Issue. ( vol 158 #4 ). from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jun 23 07:43:52 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 Wayne - Sounds good to me too - But, how are you going to get my twistedspiral strip in there with the others? - Tom from michael@tci.wustl.edu Mon Jun 23 12:47:43 1997 Subject: Rodmakers at Grayrock '97 & TBBBQ Grayrock '97 is but a fond memory now. As usual I had a wonderful time(perhaps "too" good a time!!! :-) and offer thanks and appreciation toall who made the weekend possible. On the Trout Bum BBQ side a specialthanks to fellow listmembers, Grayling locals, Victor Edwards of Spike'sKeg-O-Nails and Steve Southard of The Fly Factory for their untiringefforts, hospitality, and generousity in organizing the Trout Bum BBQ.Each year the TBBBQ gets better and better...Thanks guys!!! The Rodmakers Gathering also was of course a huge success. A veryspecialthanks goes out to Wayne Cattanach for organizing the weekend. He wasseemingly in about ten places at the same time, doing organizational duties, being our personal fishing guide, giving workshops, answeringquestions, and giving one on one help to get us over one stumbling blockor another. Now that your vacation is over Wayne, I hope you can get somerest!!! :-) I am now officially in "recovery" mode. I ate (and drank) too much, I gotvery little sleep, and LOVED every minute of it! I got some work done onmy rod, I got some fishing in, I got the chance to cast some of the finestrods in the country, and I benefited from the knowledge and generousity ofsome of the best rodmakers in the country. But most of all I had theopportunity to hang out with bunch of guys (Lucinda, Cheryl, Lyndi,Eileen, Brenda, and the other ladies I didn't get a chance to meet...youare all included in that generic "guys" :-) who all share a commoninterest and make you feel like old friend the moment you meet them.Look forward to seeing you, and many more new "old" friends next year! Wayne, Steve, Victor, thanks again for great time... Mike - what do you mean the keg's empty - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from teekay35@interlynx.net Mon Jun 23 12:49:54 1997 NAA20035 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:49:26 - Subject: Rod Identification Can anyone identify this rod for me? The rod is an 8' 6", 3 piece, cane,with black metal reel seat and ferrules. The wraps are orange with blacktipping. Written in black ink near the grip on one flat is "Courtney RyleyCooper- Premier". On the adjacent flat is "Doublebuilt". There are noother identification marks. I'm doing a restoration/refinish job on therod for a friend and would like to know who the manufacturer was. Anyinformation would be appreciated. from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Jun 23 14:39:46 1997 with ESMTP id OAA25079 for ; Mon, 23 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id PKTOBLAO; Mon,23 Jun 1997 14:39:11 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Toronto area rodmakers... Gentlemen, I will be in Toronto the weekend of July 12-13 on business and may havesometime to do some fishing. Anyone willing to share info on where to go(river, ifanyone's interested. I would like to fish at least one day though. Don DeLoach from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Mon Jun 23 15:27:14 1997 runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:27:10 -0500 Subject: Rod Identification -Reply your friends rod was made by South Bend. They bought out the Crosscompany which was famous for their Double Built rods. So what youhave is a Cross with a private label. Is your friend interested is selling? I have been looking for a Cross Double built. from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Jun 23 15:41:53 1997 with ESMTP id PAA27885 for ; Mon, 23 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id ULUQBPAE; Mon,23 Jun 1997 15:41:15 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: H-I reel info Everyone, Sorry to for the aside, but I have a question about an old fly reel I saw atanantique shop recently. It was quite light aluminum, medium trout size (~3"spool diameter), had a brownish tint, and had "Utica, NY" stamped on it. Iassume this is a Horrocks-Ibbotson reel right? Anyone have an idea on thecollectable value of this reel, or if it is mechanically sound for occasionalfishing? ThanksDon DeLoach from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Jun 23 16:56:05 1997 Subject: RE:Rod Identification RO>Can anyone identify this rod for me? The rod is an 8' 6", 3 piece, cane,RO>with black metal reel seat and ferrules. The wraps are orange withblackRO>tipping. Written in black ink near the grip on one flat is "CourtneyRyleyRO>Cooper-Premier". On the adjacent flat is "Doublebuilt". There are noRO>other identification marks. I'm doing a restoration/refinish job on theRO>rod for a friend and would like to know who the manufacturer was. AnyRO>information would be appreciated. Quote from Michael Sinclair's fine restoration handbook: "In about 1931, upon the sale of Winchester's fishing rod division toHorrocks-Ibbotson, Cooper switched his alliance to South Bend. At SouthBend, Cooper's name was seen on at least two Cross Double-built models." Sounds like this is what you've got! Don Burns PS - Sinclair's book is: "Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook" @ $25.00 (us$) ISBN #1-882418-11-5 from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Mon Jun 23 17:09:52 1997 runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:09:49 -0500 Subject: H-I reel info -Reply I have one like it in green. They are pretty light with just a click drag. Isay one in a sale catalog in good condition for $25. They are o.k. for alght back- up reel or for someone just starting out. I keep mine on aMontague Sunbeam and keep it in the car for those long lunch hours bythe river. from Leessinker@aol.com Mon Jun 23 17:20:19 1997 Subject: FILEJIG SECOND ATTEMPT boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.8944.emout10.mail.aol.com.867104306" --PART.BOUNDARY.0.8944.emout10.mail.aol.com.867104306 SORRY TO THOSE THAT MISSED THE FILEJIG.HERE'S MY SECOND ATTEMPT.ATTACHING FILES ARE NEW TO ME. LET'S TRY AGAIN.Dewayne from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Jun 23 17:41:19 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA23486 for Subject: Re: soggy rods John Cooper wrote: Terry Ackland wrote to John Cooper: John, I have just finished reading an old posting of yours on therodmakerslist archives. Very good, sorry you had no real response, I guessed asmuchbefore I started to to scroll down the list. What you must understand is that the list is based on the Garrison bookandthe belief in the book is absolute! If one builds a rod as per the bookusing the processes described it is not possible to construct a good rod. The problem is,is that in North America they gave up their cane rodsyearsbefore us Brits did so there are few anglers that relly understand cane The computer generated tapers that are touted, the super accuracy thatsomebelieve make a good rod to me is crap, what makes a good rod is is howthecane is processed! I feel that the rods being produced today are visually stunning but willthey stand up to the punishment that was expected back when bamboowas theonly tool? I visited a Show in Pennsylvania a couple of years ago during a reallyhotstormy humid priod. There were many rods built by the 'book' and noneof emwas straight. This proved to me that the required finish should be morethanjust multiple coats of soft varnish. I get on the list from time to time but get into trouble with the Gurus. Ido not have that much time, I am pretty busy with the rods and thistime ofthe year I like to get out sailing(plastic). Take a look at my web sitehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon Regards, Terry Ackland Terry Looked at your web page. Lots of common sense there, and your surface- onlyimpregnation technique sounds as though it might be important. What doyouimpregnate with? Will anyone be smart enough to realise that this mightjustbe the most significant [change] to cane-making technique since hex wasinvented? NB: I did say MIGHT. Is your method a secret Terry, or are youable/willing to tell us how you do it? I hope you will not mind - I'm replying to your mailing direct to me viaRodmakers, because this subject is very important, and I think it mightbeuseful for others to look again at the question of surface finishes. Youpicked up on my original mailing because it struck a cord with you. Asyousay, there were few other takers (the redoubtable Aussie Young, andquick-witted Californian Don Burns being notable exceptions). I can'tquiteunderstand how there can be 956 deeply considered postings on thesubjectof Hoch blades, when something as far reaching and fundamental asvarnish-induced cane deterioration goes by without so much a raisedeyebrow. The modern deep and smooth and even school of rod finishers might wellbeusing materials better than the old 'copal' crap. But, even so, I'm utterlyconvinced from my enquiries at the best manufacturers that themoisture goesinto the wood through hygroscopic porosity - then stays there, resultingineventual deterioration of the material, and the action. What amazed me most, was the improvement available through completedryingof the cane. I'd always thought that soggy cane was quite beyond any dutyother than hanging on the wall. I have discovered that (at least) some areredeemable. I have also found in my restoration work that the darker, harder bakedcane,has generally remained more 'steely' and sog-free than the pale, blondexamples. What more is that longer baking achieving? Such rods arecertainlymore brittle, but soggy rods are less than useless. We know now empirically that given exposure to water, either as a liquidoras water vapour, the moisture content of our rods WILL rise, no matterwhatwe do to avoid it. What we need now is a scientist-type, who can tell uswhether we should be ladling on more defence (varnish?) or less defence,toallow the retained moisture to evaporate out of the cane when presentedwiththe right conditions to do so. Perhaps there exists in the mind of somegenius, some varnish concoction that will work like Goretex, allowing nowater in, but allowing the microscopic droplets of water vapour out. I'm trying to summon up the courage to semi-impregnate a rod with theyachtcoating with the phonetic name of Dec Sol Ya, which is made somewhereinScanderwegia. The finish works well on boats that sit in the water allyear,so it damned-well ought to work on a rod that gets temporarily wet tentimesa year. It is sort of shiny when buffed, without actually being glossy. It'swater-like in consistency, and it takes about fifteen (2 minute) coats tofill the absorbent surface of mahogany, so probably less on our cane. Infact, having now just written about it, I'm resolved to complete a rodwiththe stuff - starting this evening. Soggy rods Now here's a thing. I bought a bedraggled little 8' # 5 made circa 1950 byMilwards of Redditch (famous old British rod-maker: sadly defunct). Todescribe it as bedraggled is nothing more than a salesman's over-sell: itwas DEAD. I bought it for pennies, for the nice N/S fittings. It was SOGGY- that is - it stayed set (partially) in any curve I cared to put impart. BUT (you know how it is) I stripped off the varnish of ages, and all thefittings, and found nice flamed cane underneath. I then left it in a corner spares).WELL: for some reason, after that week the rod was very much'springier', soI decided to give it a chance, and hung it in the boiler (furnace) room. To cut a six week story short, the rod is now back to new. Removing allthecrap and drying out the cane has transformed it. Once the sections werestraightened they remained straight. There is no set, and the rod has asuperb sprung-steel feel. Who's the expert on this? Was the old varnish keeping in moisture? If so,why hadn't the cane/glue deteriorated beyond recall? Were the 1,487coats ofbrown varnish supporting the imposed bend, and not allowing the rod torecover straightness? I'm now convinced that heavily varnished rods are prone to sets. I'm notatall clear about what is going on between the cane and the varnish tocausethis effect, but I am now also quite convinced that minimally wrappedandvarnished rods maintain their straightness for longer: always assumingthatthe varnish is still intact and waterproof, and bearing in mind that allvarnishes are to a greater or lesser extent, hygroscopic (I think that'stheword - they let in moisture). I also sail my own classic XOD class wooden yacht. We noticed that evenwhen drieddown to about 8% moisture content, then fully encapsulated with epoxy(WESTsystem) the wood underneath was back to 25% water content within twoyears.Moreover, boats that were not encapsulated were able to dry out whenconditions allowed. Encapsulated boats stayed wet. Aha - could thisFACTapply also to rods made of wood-like giant grass? An engineer would probably be able to explain the phenomenon quiteeasily. Iexpect he would tell us that we elect to use our highly processed Tonkincane for its outstanding structural and engineering ability. He would askwhy on earth we should expect common-o-garden varnish to have thesameabilities to recover from the stretching and compression loads imposedonthe cane. He might tell us that ten heavy coats of varnish on a the buttsection of a very stiff (thick) rod might not be all that obvious, but thatthe same ten coats of varnish on a thin fly rod tip would change theactionof the rod completely. My degree was not maths based, so what follows may be total head uptail each (brushed) coat of varnish is (0.00175") 1.75 thousandths of an inchthick (maybe it isn't), then we multiply that by 10 (ten coats) andbecauseit is on both sides of the rod we multiply by 2 then we arrive at anoverallthickness of varnish of .035" A #6 fly rod tip might typically be .075" indiameter. It seems then that the varnish (in this extreme case) canamountto an increase of over 46% in the diameter of the rod - and this 46% inun-structural (maybe it is) heavy varnish. More typically, and for the sake of charity, let us assume that eachvarnishcoat is only (0.0016") 1.60 thousandths of an inch thick, then wemultiply we arrive at a varnish thickness of 0.0256". The butt section of 9' # 8type rod might typically be 0.30". In this case there is an increase in thediameter of the rod by 8.5% in un-structural, heavy varnish. These calculations are very naive, probably also ill-conceived. There'sbound to be more to the whole business than these bare figures. Ourengineerfriend would probably offer a more complex explanation. Because basic engineering law tells us that it is the outermost part (thesurface) of the rod that confers most of its rigidity (the core of the roddoes little to add stiffness) it is possible that a very hard coat ofvarnish might even have a stiffening effect on a rod's action.Nevertheless,experience demonstrates that multiple coats of aged varnish produceun-helpful effects. It seems to me that the most likely thing is that there are effects fromboth the varnish and the retained moisture, and that (as in the case ofmypoor little Milwards) in extreme cases these effects can render a caneshaftnear to useless. Am I talking total garbage? You can talk plainly to me. John Cooper (England)John,Although I am wary of responding to your post, given that I amneither"redoubtable", nor "quick-witted", I thought I might offer some advicebased upon experience.Deks Olje seems from examination to be a dilute oil-varnish mix.Whenrestoring a 103' gaff- topsal ketch some years ago, the owner stressedthat he wanted the hull and decks bright. He wished to use Deks Olje(sp?). I bought a gallon of it (very expensive) and applied 5 coats tosome longleaf yellow pine. Coverage was poor, especially compared to 3coats of an oil-varnish mix I made for 1/3 the price.I would suggest that you investigate the possibility of using anoil- varnish mix that you can control, rather than a product of uncertainlineage.As for replying to your earlier post, the tone was rhetorical, Iassumed that a reply was unnecessary. The issue of multiple coats ofsoft varnish altering rod action is well documented in anglingliterature from at least the turn of the century. signedReed "one among the damned (e.g., ignorant non-Brits) of the list, andproud of it" Curry from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Jun 23 19:13:10 1997 ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:23:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Rodmakers at Grayrock '97 & TBBBQ Wayne I wish to echo Mike's (sober) thank you for a job well done.This gathering definately had it's own charater and a good one atthat. You put forth a lot of effort to accomondate everyone and toshow people a good time. Looking forward to next year with bigger and better things. Regards Chris from mwe@manznet.com Mon Jun 23 19:58:54 1997 SAA17987 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:03:06 Subject: Rod-Building Jigs Does anyone have plans or a picture of a rodbuilding jig that they builtthat works really well. I have a motor I use and need a better system fora chuck and a better system for ball-bearing rollers. What materials arebest and where can the be found. Economy is important, but quality iscritical. Thanks in advance.~Mike EricksonChico, CA from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Jun 23 20:07:51 1997 Subject: Re: Toronto area rodmakers... Don, I am in Toronto but I will be in Denver that week. Otherwise I would haveenjoyed hooking up with you. Let me know if I can help in any other way. James. At 14:39 23/06/97 -0700, you wrote:Gentlemen, I will be in Toronto the weekend of July 12-13 on business and may havesometime to do some fishing. Anyone willing to share info on where to go(river, session ifanyone's interested. I would like to fish at least one day though. Don DeLoach James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Jun 23 20:29:22 1997 Subject: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update Well - It has been decided that the rod will be raffled off with theproceeds going to the George Mason Chapter - ear marked for the AuSable&Manistee Restoration fund and the George Griffith Foundation. Michigan hasraffle laws that make this easier to impliment. The decision has beenmade tolimit the raffle to the original idea of just one rod. Larry Cory is doing alimited edition print that will be the raffle ticket - Larry has won theMichigan Trout Stamp and many other competions - The theme will be abrooktrout and a bamboo rod. Luis is contrbuting a book that he will makespecial.The ticket price will be $50 but there is discussion about the quantity(300or 500). Fly Rod & Reel is commited to a couple of blurbs. And thosemakersvolunteering are as follows ( I haven't got my mail today so the list maybeincomplete) 1 - Chris Bogart2 - John Zimmy3 - Miles Tiernan4 - Mike Biondo5 - Dennis Higham6 - Doug Hall7 - Al Medved8 - Jon Parker9 - Ken Rongey10 - John Gallas11 - Per Brandin - Per is working on Mario W12 - Darryl Whitehead13 - Paul French14 - Carlos Santos15 - Wayne - Matt - Lyndi Cattanach Some of the above makers have asked to reserve another 6 slots - sothatthey can pry on their friends & Steve Southard has asked us to reserve aslotas well. 16 - decision17 - decision18 - decision19 - decision20 - decision21 - decision22 - decision23 - open24 - open So far the logistics are such that it might be wise to just start withthe east doing the butt - the west doing the mid and the midwest the tips-so far no one really cares where the names end up at. Al Bellinger is doingacustom seat which they will sign and Darryl Whitehead has offered anagatestripper. Color of wraps? A volunteer to do the finish ? from penr0295@uidaho.edu Mon Jun 23 21:31:32 1997 TAA24702 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:31:28 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id TAA11347 for ; process doing -bs Subject: Re:CRS Planing form question (fwd) While I was able to find all of the items needed to construct my own CRSplaning forms the one thing that is causing me trouble is the5/16"-18 tap bit. With the exception of one that I saw that cost $30, allof the tap bits I have seen in this size will only do a tap 1 inch deep,since the shank of the bit is the same outside diameter as the threads, soyou cannot go in any farther than the threaded portion of the bit. Wayne C's book calls for using a doweling jig to do the tap, andsince the doweling jig bit guides are over an inch long, you would need apretty long tap bit to make it all the way through the bit guide and the 1 1/2" of the planing form itself. I would prefer using Wayne'ssuggestion of using a dowelling jig to get as accurate a tap as possible,so does it look like I am going to have to spend $30 to get the one tapbit I found that has an extended shank? Can anyone suggest an alternative? I have checked a lot of sources, but so far have not found anything else. Thomas Penrose from JCZIMNY@dol.net Mon Jun 23 22:27:59 1997 Subject: Re: CRS Planing form question (fwd) Thomas,Unless you want to make your own (easily doable if you have a lath),you're going to have to pay a premium for a longer tap. MSC has them onsale for about $16 until 30 June.John Zimny from lblan@oeonline.com Mon Jun 23 22:33:06 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0wgMDh-000391C; Mon, 23 Jun 97 23:24 EDT Subject: Grayrock '97 My heartfelt thanks to all the participants. I had a truly enjoyableweekend. Kudos to Wayne for an outstanding job organizing the event! I canhardly wait for next year to roll around! from lblan@oeonline.com Mon Jun 23 22:33:07 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0wgMDf-00038tC; Mon, 23 Jun 97 23:24 EDT Subject: Re: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update Wayne; sign me up for anything I can do to help. It looks like you've donea bit more with the idea since Sunday night. With national exposure... 500tickets might not be a bad idea.. it would set the tone for futureofferings. ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: 'The Makers Rod 98' - UpdateDate: Monday, June 23, 1997 9:28 PM Well - It has been decided that the rod will be raffled off withtheproceeds going to the George Mason Chapter - ear marked for the AuSable&Manistee Restoration fund and the George Griffith Foundation. Michiganhasraffle laws that make this easier to impliment. The decision has beenmade tolimit the raffle to the original idea of just one rod. Larry Cory isdoing alimited edition print that will be the raffle ticket - Larry has won theMichigan Trout Stamp and many other competions - The theme will be abrooktrout and a bamboo rod. Luis is contrbuting a book that he will makespecial.The ticket price will be $50 but there is discussion about the quantity(300or 500). Fly Rod & Reel is commited to a couple of blurbs. And thosemakersvolunteering are as follows ( I haven't got my mail today so the list maybeincomplete) 1 - Chris Bogart2 - John Zimmy3 - Miles Tiernan4 - Mike Biondo5 - Dennis Higham6 - Doug Hall7 - Al Medved8 - Jon Parker9 - Ken Rongey10 - John Gallas11 - Per Brandin - Per is working on Mario W12 - Darryl Whitehead13 - Paul French14 - Carlos Santos15 - Wayne - Matt - Lyndi Cattanach Some of the above makers have asked to reserve another 6 slots - sothatthey can pry on their friends & Steve Southard has asked us to reserve aslotas well. 16 - decision17 - decision18 - decision19 - decision20 - decision21 - decision22 - decision23 - open24 - open So far the logistics are such that it might be wise to just startwiththe east doing the butt - the west doing the mid and the midwest thetips-so far no one really cares where the names end up at. Al Bellinger isdoing acustom seat which they will sign and Darryl Whitehead has offered anagatestripper. Color of wraps? A volunteer to do the finish ? from rhicks@d.umn.edu Mon Jun 23 22:56:49 1997 WAA03263 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:55:15 - Subject: Grayrock 97 I just wanted to add my thanks to all you guys who helped make Grayrock97happen. I came feeling like the "new kid on the block" (which I am), butleft feeling like part of a group. Thanks to all that entertained my manynaive questions during the two days. Hopefully, I can contribute a littlemore by next year. If any of you come to northern Minnesota (Duluthregion), give me a call and I'll direct you to some of our local fishingspots. Randy Hicks from 102130.461@compuserve.com Mon Jun 23 23:30:04 1997 Subject: RODMAKERS '97 & TBBBQ I want to thank all of you who attended RODMAKERS '97 and TBBBQ forhelping to make the week such an enjoyable, interesting and successfulevent. This year, TBBBQ generated approximately $3000 for fisheries resourceprojects:1/2 will go to the FERC [Federal Energy Regulatory CommissionCoalition ]. The Coalition is composed of FFF, TU and other groups and isrepresenting fisheries interests during the dam relicensing process hereinMichigan. They have been successful in negotiating [or forcing] theutilities to make changes in the operation of hydo dams and also to makemonetary restitution [for fish kills] and other monetary commitments forfisheries projets.1/2 will go to the George Griffith Foundation to be used for aproject that they are undertaking to study the potential impact to theAuSable River fishery caused by stormwater discharge from Grayling[mainstream] and Roscommon [south branch]. The project for '98 which Wayne has kicked off is very exciting and agrandgesture by all involved. Thanks again for your participation! I look forward to seeing you atRODMAKERS '98 and TBBBQ IV. Steve Southard~~ from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Jun 24 01:13:42 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 Tom -We're breaking so many rules here that I would rather doubt that alittle spiraling is really an issue here. I had tried to call earlier so thelist goes as follows. The other 'decision' slots are for Ron - George - JeffW - Bob Summers. By the way #22 is pegged for Bill when I can raise Him.Iwill be sending raw strips in a week or so. Thank For Your Support Wayne Well - It has been decided that the rod will be raffled off with theproceeds going to the George Mason Chapter - ear marked for the AuSable&Manistee Restoration fund and the George Griffith Foundation. Michigan hasraffle laws that make this easier to impliment. The decision has beenmade tolimit the raffle to the original idea of just one rod. Larry Cory is doing alimited edition print that will be the raffle ticket - Larry has won theMichigan Trout Stamp and many other competions - The theme will be abrooktrout and a bamboo rod. Luis is contrbuting a book that he will makespecial.The ticket price will be $50 but there is discussion about the quantity(300or 500). Fly Rod & Reel is commited to a couple of blurbs. And thosemakersvolunteering are as follows ( I haven't got my mail today so the list maybeincomplete) 1 - Chris Bogart2 - John Zimmy3 - Miles Tiernan4 - Mike Biondo5 - Dennis Higham6 - Doug Hall7 - Al Medved8 - Jon Parker9 - Ken Rongey10 - John Gallas11 - Per Brandin - Per is working on Mario W12 - Darryl Whitehead13 - Paul French14 - Carlos Santos15 - Wayne - Matt - Lyndi Cattanach Some of the above makers have asked to reserve another 6 slots - sothatthey can pry on their friends & Steve Southard has asked us to reserve aslotas well. 16 - decision - Ron Barch ?17 - decision - George Maurer?18 - decision - Jeff Wagner?19 - decision - Bob Summers?20 - decision - Hank Woolman?21 - Tom Smithwick22 - decision - Bill Fink?23 - Jonathan Clark24 - Gary Dabrowski So far the logistics are such that it might be wise to just start withthe east doing the butt - the west doing the mid and the midwest the tips-so far no one really cares where the names end up at. Al Bellinger is doingacustom seat which they will sign and Darryl Whitehead has offered anagatestripper. Color of wraps? A volunteer to do the finish ? from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Jun 24 07:36:09 1997 NAA09341 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:39:32+0100 Subject: Re: soggy rods John Cooper wrote: Terry Ackland wrote to John Cooper: John, I have just finished reading an old posting of yours on therodmakerslist archives. Very good, sorry you had no real response, I guessed asmuchbefore I started to to scroll down the list. What you must understand is that the list is based on the Garrison bookandthe belief in the book is absolute! If one builds a rod as per the bookusing the processes described it is not possible to construct a goodrod. The problem is,is that in North America they gave up their cane rodsyearsbefore us Brits did so there are few anglers that relly understand cane The computer generated tapers that are touted, the super accuracy thatsomebelieve make a good rod to me is crap, what makes a good rod is is howthecane is processed! I feel that the rods being produced today are visually stunning but willthey stand up to the punishment that was expected back when bamboowas theonly tool? I visited a Show in Pennsylvania a couple of years ago during a reallyhotstormy humid priod. There were many rods built by the 'book' and noneof emwas straight. This proved to me that the required finish should be morethanjust multiple coats of soft varnish. I get on the list from time to time but get into trouble with the Gurus.Ido not have that much time, I am pretty busy with the rods and thistime ofthe year I like to get out sailing(plastic). Take a look at my web sitehttp://www.odyssee.net/~hexagon Regards, Terry Ackland Terry Looked at your web page. Lots of common sense there, and your surface- onlyimpregnation technique sounds as though it might be important. What doyouimpregnate with? Will anyone be smart enough to realise that thismight justbe the most significant [change] to cane-making technique since hexwasinvented? NB: I did say MIGHT. Is your method a secret Terry, or are youable/willing to tell us how you do it? I hope you will not mind - I'm replying to your mailing direct to me viaRodmakers, because this subject is very important, and I think it mightbeuseful for others to look again at the question of surface finishes. Youpicked up on my original mailing because it struck a cord with you. Asyousay, there were few other takers (the redoubtable Aussie Young, andquick-witted Californian Don Burns being notable exceptions). I can'tquiteunderstand how there can be 956 deeply considered postings on thesubjectof Hoch blades, when something as far reaching and fundamental asvarnish-induced cane deterioration goes by without so much a raisedeyebrow. The modern deep and smooth and even school of rod finishers might wellbeusing materials better than the old 'copal' crap. But, even so, I'm utterlyconvinced from my enquiries at the best manufacturers that themoisture goesinto the wood through hygroscopic porosity - then stays there, resultingineventual deterioration of the material, and the action. What amazed me most, was the improvement available throughcomplete dryingof the cane. I'd always thought that soggy cane was quite beyond anydutyother than hanging on the wall. I have discovered that (at least) someareredeemable. I have also found in my restoration work that the darker, harder bakedcane,has generally remained more 'steely' and sog-free than the pale, blondexamples. What more is that longer baking achieving? Such rods arecertainlymore brittle, but soggy rods are less than useless. We know now empirically that given exposure to water, either as aliquid oras water vapour, the moisture content of our rods WILL rise, no matterwhatwe do to avoid it. What we need now is a scientist-type, who can tell uswhether we should be ladling on more defence (varnish?) or lessdefence, toallow the retained moisture to evaporate out of the cane whenpresented withthe right conditions to do so. Perhaps there exists in the mind of somegenius, some varnish concoction that will work like Goretex, allowingnowater in, but allowing the microscopic droplets of water vapour out. I'm trying to summon up the courage to semi-impregnate a rod with theyachtcoating with the phonetic name of Dec Sol Ya, which is madesomewhere inScanderwegia. The finish works well on boats that sit in the water allyear,so it damned-well ought to work on a rod that gets temporarily wet tentimesa year. It is sort of shiny when buffed, without actually being glossy.It'swater-like in consistency, and it takes about fifteen (2 minute) coatstofill the absorbent surface of mahogany, so probably less on our cane. Infact, having now just written about it, I'm resolved to complete a rodwiththe stuff - starting this evening. Soggy rods Now here's a thing. I bought a bedraggled little 8' # 5 made circa 1950byMilwards of Redditch (famous old British rod-maker: sadly defunct). Todescribe it as bedraggled is nothing more than a salesman's over-sell: itwas DEAD. I bought it for pennies, for the nice N/S fittings. It wasSOGGY - that is - it stayed set (partially) in any curve I cared to put impart. BUT (you know how it is) I stripped off the varnish of ages, and all thefittings, and found nice flamed cane underneath. I then left it in acorner spares).WELL: for some reason, after that week the rod was very much'springier', soI decided to give it a chance, and hung it in the boiler (furnace) room. To cut a six week story short, the rod is now back to new. Removing allthecrap and drying out the cane has transformed it. Once the sections werestraightened they remained straight. There is no set, and the rod has asuperb sprung-steel feel. Who's the expert on this? Was the old varnish keeping in moisture? Ifso,why hadn't the cane/glue deteriorated beyond recall? Were the 1,487coats ofbrown varnish supporting the imposed bend, and not allowing the rod torecover straightness? I'm now convinced that heavily varnished rods are prone to sets. I'm notatall clear about what is going on between the cane and the varnish tocausethis effect, but I am now also quite convinced that minimally wrappedandvarnished rods maintain their straightness for longer: always assumingthatthe varnish is still intact and waterproof, and bearing in mind that allvarnishes are to a greater or lesser extent, hygroscopic (I think that'stheword - they let in moisture). I also sail my own classic XOD class wooden yacht. We noticed thatevenwhen drieddown to about 8% moisture content, then fully encapsulated with epoxy(WESTsystem) the wood underneath was back to 25% water content withintwo years.Moreover, boats that were not encapsulated were able to dry out whenconditions allowed. Encapsulated boats stayed wet. Aha - could thisFACTapply also to rods made of wood-like giant grass? An engineer would probably be able to explain the phenomenon quiteeasily. Iexpect he would tell us that we elect to use our highly processed Tonkincane for its outstanding structural and engineering ability. He wouldaskwhy on earth we should expect common-o-garden varnish to have thesameabilities to recover from the stretching and compression loads imposedonthe cane. He might tell us that ten heavy coats of varnish on a the buttsection of a very stiff (thick) rod might not be all that obvious, but thatthe same ten coats of varnish on a thin fly rod tip would change theactionof the rod completely. My degree was not maths based, so what follows may be total head uptail each (brushed) coat of varnish is (0.00175") 1.75 thousandths of an inchthick (maybe it isn't), then we multiply that by 10 (ten coats) andbecauseit is on both sides of the rod we multiply by 2 then we arrive at anoverallthickness of varnish of .035" A #6 fly rod tip might typically be .075"indiameter. It seems then that the varnish (in this extreme case) canamountto an increase of over 46% in the diameter of the rod - and this 46% inun-structural (maybe it is) heavy varnish. More typically, and for the sake of charity, let us assume that eachvarnishcoat is only (0.0016") 1.60 thousandths of an inch thick, then wemultiply rod)we arrive at a varnish thickness of 0.0256". The butt section of 9' # 8type rod might typically be 0.30". In this case there is an increase inthediameter of the rod by 8.5% in un-structural, heavy varnish. These calculations are very naive, probably also ill-conceived. There'sbound to be more to the whole business than these bare figures. Ourengineerfriend would probably offer a more complex explanation. Because basic engineering law tells us that it is the outermost part(thesurface) of the rod that confers most of its rigidity (the core of the roddoes little to add stiffness) it is possible that a very hard coat ofvarnish might even have a stiffening effect on a rod's action.Nevertheless,experience demonstrates that multiple coats of aged varnish produceun-helpful effects. It seems to me that the most likely thing is that there are effects fromboth the varnish and the retained moisture, and that (as in the case ofmypoor little Milwards) in extreme cases these effects can render a caneshaftnear to useless. Am I talking total garbage? You can talk plainly to me. John Cooper (England)John,Although I am wary of responding to your post, given that I amneither"redoubtable", nor "quick-witted", I thought I might offer some advicebased upon experience.Deks Olje seems from examination to be a dilute oil-varnish mix.Whenrestoring a 103' gaff- topsal ketch some years ago, the owner stressedthat he wanted the hull and decks bright. He wished to use Deks Olje(sp?). I bought a gallon of it (very expensive) and applied 5 coats tosome longleaf yellow pine. Coverage was poor, especially compared to 3coats of an oil-varnish mix I made for 1/3 the price.I would suggest that you investigate the possibility of using anoil- varnish mix that you can control, rather than a product of uncertainlineage.As for replying to your earlier post, the tone was rhetorical, Iassumed that a reply was unnecessary. The issue of multiple coats ofsoft varnish altering rod action is well documented in anglingliterature from at least the turn of the century. signedReed "one among the damned (e.g., ignorant non-Brits) of the list, andproud of it" Curry Aha. A rise, and a pretty smart fish, judging by the rise form. HomosapiensAmericanii, probably. The introduction here of first-class additional stockhas resulted in a pleasingly varied strain that is both bigger and in manyways better than the original brood-stock: colourful, vibrant, andadventurous. Some appear to have a sensitive spot, but this may just be aresult of hook and release, which produces populations that are extremelywary. Better tread gently. Reed, Sensitivities apart, that's just the sort of reply I was hoping for. Theoriginal posting was long on rhetoric, but the question was there: 'Am Italking total garbage.' Your boat experience is valuable, although you don'tsay whether you eventually used your own mix, or the Deks Olje. Do youknow varnish? Do you know whether the treatment was a long-term success? If(effectively) this treatment sucks dilute varnish into the wood, does itthen maintain its integrity better than when attacked externally by UV., ordoes ultimately 'go off' inside the material, rendering the (rod) useless?Should one be considering such a course of action - after all, it's easy toget degraded coatings off a surface, but practically impossible to getthemout from within the internal structure of the material. I suspect that thehull and decks of a sea-going 103' ketch would be test-enough for anywoodsurface: although of course it's a different wood, and it's not beingswished about like a fly rod. Some years ago I had the topsides of a previous wooden racing yachtimpregnated with Deks Olje. When we tested moisture content three yearslater it was 17%, compared to about twenty others of the same class andagewhich were all off the 25% max. scale. These yachts sit in the water sevenmonths of the year - quite a test, and 17% is what you would expect fromwhat most people call 'dry timber', although more than rodmakers wouldwantto register in their culms. If the treatment was eventually found to be suitable for rods, a simpletwoday soak in a dip tube would probably be all that was required forpermanentprotection. It might also be possible to 'top-up' the protection with guidesin place, because this stuff can just be wiped off, leaving no residue. Itake your point about its cost - £12 ($19) here, for 1 litre. That'soutrageous, but one litre would probably treat 150 rods, so it's not reallya significant part of the total cost of the rod. I may be talking complete crap, and maybe the treatment would behopeless.Perhaps there would be changes in the action of any rod treated thus (forgood or ill). Perhaps such treatment would cause sections to twist: if so,could this be corrected permanently? Terry Ackland's partial impregnation method sounds particularlyinteresting.I wonder what he's using. I'm promulgating all this in the hope of receiving some informed comment. John Cooper (UK.) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Jun 24 08:41:29 1997 Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:41:01 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: soggy rods I hope you don't mind my snipping all the previous comments from this epic saga, but I pay by the byte and so far it must have cost a couple of bucks.If you ask 20 boaties the best way to protect timber boats, that's how many answers you'll get unless some have more than one answer. Thereason is as John has touched on, some like the wood to "breath" some like to encapsulate it. As far as encapsulation goes, I think to do that is to keep a boat not too far from the bottom floating for a few more years but it's going to rot as you can't keep em 100% dry and the moisture stays there and does the damage.Some paint the inside and outside of the planking saying it protects but still allows moisture to escape when it's able (sort of like Goretex?) and some say don't paint the inside of the planks as it inhibits the movement of moisture.My wooden boat built in '58 has sat in salt water since it was built and is painted inside and out. It dosn't freeze in Western Australia very often so it stays in the water 365 days of the year.The problem with comparing boats and the finishes with cane rods is thata wooden boat is designed to be wet, drying and wetting will cause damage, so the wood always has some moisture, even when it's "dry" above the waterline. A cane rod can reasonably be expected to stay dry, submersion wise but the effects of atmospheric moisture are the concern.I wonder if the moisture entry (if any) that occurs in a varnished rod escapes the same way it enters or if it remains.How much moisture in fact enters? Any? I spoke to a gent who made rods for Hardys and he says they were empregnated in a phenolic solution for a few days after heat treating.I've used a few of his rods and they seem pretty non soggy.This same gent made cane rods for himself in NZ and he dipped them inspar varnish. I haven't seen these rods as he made these to order and didn't keep any but he does seen to consider Hardys treatment better. The impregnation stiffens the action, and this in it'self seems to be When the Hardys get wet from rain, the water beads and seems not to affect the rod in the least.This gent has told me that when cane rods were fished in fast flowing streams and rivers in NZ (catching a goodly number of large fish) the rods did get a set which he put down to the pull of the line in the current.I've seen the set in a couple of his rods and this does not seem to affect the casting.He did mention rods spar varnished didn't *seem* to take a set to quite the same extent.This gent was a fishing guide so fished quite a bit and his rods did a lot of work.Just to add a little spice, he also said he used only uplocking reel seats as these were a lot less likely to undo during use. Sorry about the wooden boat diatribe but I just wanted to point out that wooden boats are never realy dry and don't need to have a very fast action. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html"IThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Tue Jun 24 09:42:25 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods RO>John,RO> Although I am wary of responding to your post, given that I amneitherRO>"redoubtable", nor "quick-witted", I thought I might offer some adviceRO>based upon experience.RO> Deks Olje seems from examination to be a dilute oil-varnish mix.WhenRO>restoring a 103' gaff-topsal ketch some years ago, the owner stressedRO>that he wanted the hull and decks bright. He wished to use Deks OljeRO>(sp?). I bought a gallon of it (very expensive) and applied 5 coats toRO>some longleaf yellow pine. Coverage was poor, especially compared to3RO>coats of an oil-varnish mix I made for 1/3 the price.RO> I would suggest that you investigate the possibility of using anRO>oil-varnish mix that you can control, rather than a product of uncertainRO>lineage.RO> As for replying to your earlier post, the tone was rhetorical, IRO>assumed that a reply was unnecessary. The issue of multiple coats ofRO>soft varnish altering rod action is well documented in anglingRO>literature from at least the turn of the century. RO>signedRO>Reed "one among the damned (e.g., ignorant non-Brits) of the list, andRO>proud of it" Curry John/Reed, Thanks for calling me quick-witted, much better than being calledhalf-witted. The multi-coat varnish issue might have been well covered, but as arecent- to-the-group rod restorer (and someday rod builder) I've neverbeen exposed to these articles. I believe John is in the same boat? a page designed for the exchange and storage of rod restorationinformation, much like the taper recording that now occurs here. Neededinformation such as: original thread colors and patterns, mfg's colorpreserver method(s), techiques for restoration problems and maybe a rodrestoration parts swapping network. I guess that's a little bit far afield for the intended function of thisgroup - but one can dream. Tight lines, Don Burns PS - I tried to hold my own personal mini-Grayrock up on the Kern River,this past weekend. Might start a left-coast sub-chapter? The Kern is located at the lower end of the Sequoia National Forest.It along with the Little Kern is the original home of the CaliforniaGolden Trout. But the river flow was very high - a nat. forest ranger said the riverwas 3' above normal for this time of year and flow is normally very highat this time of year. The river originates at Mt. Whitney (highest point in the lower 48) andthe snow pack is still very deep up on the mt., with a major melt stilloccurring. The river was at white water rafting stage 3 and 4 - manybrave souls were lining the banks getting ready to test their nerve. Thedeath toll on this river (both fishermen and rafters) now stands at 191,since record keeping began the 1970's. So under these conditions, even if I had managed to hook a fish - itwould've broken off within seconds. So the only fish I got to see weresome at the fish hatchery in Kernville. If anyone is interested in a great book on Sierra high-country trout,try to locate a copy of Ralph Cutter's "Sierra Trout Guide". Ralph andhis wife run a guide shop out of Truckee, Ca. ISBN # 1-878175-02-5 andhave hiked and fished their way from Mexico on north. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Jun 24 10:45:26 1997 Subject: Re: Re:CRS Planing form question (fwd) In a message dated 6/24/97 5:22:48 AM, you wrote: Tom - you have me confused here. Why would you need to tap through bothsidesof the form, and why would you need to use the dowel jig for tapping? Iwoulduse the jig do the drilling. Once the holes are drilled, there is no problemtapping without a jig. If you are building a push pull form, the pull screwneeds a clearance hole to match the screw's shoulder in the near bar, and atapped hole in the far bar. The push screw need only be drilled and tappedthrough the near bar. In either case you are only tapping one bar at a time,and the forms do not have to be assembled when you are tapping, onlywhen youare drilling. BTW, if you are new to this, make sure you have a quality tap.The hardware store cheapo's will fatigue and break off in steel bars. ---Tom from jfoster@gte.net Tue Jun 24 10:59:56 1997 Subject: Re: Grayrock 98 Well, I finally made it back to Dallas only to find that next yearsguild meeting has already been concluded, time flies. Had a great time, glad to meet the new crew and renew with some oldtimers. Wayne, I know you don't need any of my boomerang strips in your rod..butremember i make them that way to compensate for my complex but sloppy15' max casting range. Jerry from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Tue Jun 24 11:15:40 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA10183 for; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:15:28 -0400 Subject: Re:CRS Planing form question (fwd) Hello, Tom S. offers some sage advice. I recently built the forms my self, I can't stress the need for a GOOD tap. I built mine out of 7/8" CRS, I didn't have any problems with using standard length taps.Just do all the drilling first.Enjoy.... In a message dated 6/24/97 5:22:48 AM, you wrote: pretty long tap bit to make it all the way through the bit guide and the 1 1/2" of the planing form itself. >> Tom - you have me confused here. Why would you need to tap throughboth sidesof the form, and why would you need to use the dowel jig for tapping? Iwoulduse the jig do the drilling. Once the holes are drilled, there is no problemtapping without a jig. If you are building a push pull form, the pull screwneeds a clearance hole to match the screw's shoulder in the near bar, andatapped hole in the far bar. The push screw need only be drilled and tappedthrough the near bar. In either case you are only tapping one bar at atime,and the forms do not have to be assembled when you are tapping, onlywhen youare drilling. BTW, if you are new to this, make sure you have a qualitytap.The hardware store cheapo's will fatigue and break off in steel bars. ---Tom Tom Ausfeld (Thomas.Ausfeld@hitchcock.org)Dartmouth Hitchcock Memorial HospitalDept. Of Biomedical Engineering from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 24 11:19:57 1997 Subject: Picture Attachments and Listservers I'm sure a lot of the listers know this, and this isn'tmeant to criticize in any way, but picture attachments original sender intended. Up until last year I wasa network and email administrator for a large oilcompany, and one of the problems I handled ona regular basis was attachments. You have to realize not everybody is connected to the list as you are or even using the same operatingsystem you are. I'm sure some of the listers are gettingthis on unix workstations, PCs with Windows 3.1,Windows 95, Windows NT, or Macintoshes. The Internet cannot handle binary information.An attachment is sent out over the internet in an encoded form. It depends on the operating system what the encoding scheme is, but all of them encode an attachment as a text stream. The recieving system may or may not be able to decode the text stream back into the attachment. If it can't the recipient will have a huge block of text that looks like nonsense tohim. Even if the attachment is decoded properlythe person receiving the picture may nothave a viewer capable of viewing the format the most common format for PC users, butthey tend to make the largest file sizes..JPG is probably the best format for pictures,but again the recipient has to have somethingcapable of viewing .JPG files. Be aware also that email attachments are theeasiest way of transmitting a virus. A text emailitself cannot (as far as I know as of now) transmita virus. But executing an attachment can. Be sureyou trust the source of the attachment before youexecute it! It would be nice to see some of the people andthe rods they make, though. Perhaps on of theWeb site ownwers will put up a picture page.... Darryl Hayashida from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Tue Jun 24 12:01:59 1997 services.state.mo.us (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id MAA27535 for Subject: Re: soggy rods To the list: I claim little competence and even less experience as a cane rod builder, but I'll offer the following comments/questions on soggy rods in the spirit of stimulating discussion: 1. This seems like a very important topic. I came to the rodmaking books and the list as a woodworker (and fisher of old cane rods) and was surprised by the lack of information/discussion on drying cane before use. Woodworkers talk about air vs. kiln drying lumber all the time. 2. Some thought should be directed towards end vs. face grain. Wood loses (and regains) most moisture through end grain; I have no idea how this relates to bamboo. 3. My "new" rods are now over 20 years old and my oldest are 40+. Some are varnished, some impregnated; some are blond, some are browntone. I have fished them heavily and regularly in the varying climates of the Catskills, Oregon, Wyoming, and Missouri. All are from quality makers, all are still straight, and none are soggy. These makers clearly knew something, but may have taken different approaches. I wonder about all the possible complex interactions of the quality of the cane, drying, heat treatments, finishes, etc., but of cane before use. (I have no answers; only questions). I'll look forward to comments on this issue and also plan to find some time this week re-reading some woodworking books on the properties of wood (e.g., Bruce Hoadley's: Understanding Wood) and finishes. Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Jun 24 12:22:25 1997 Subject: Re:CRS Planing form question Tom Smithwick seez... Tom - you have me confused here. Why would you need to tap through bothsides of the form, and why would you need to use the dowel jig fortapping? I would use the jig do the drilling. Once the holes are drilled,there is no problem tapping without a jig. If you are building a push pull form, the pull screw needs a clearance hole to match the screw'sshoulder in the near bar, and a tapped hole in the far bar. The pushscrew need only be drilled and tapped through the near bar. Another hint to make tapping easier is after you drill through the barto tap- size, follow up in the same hole, to a depth of about 1/2 to 3/4through the bar, with a bolt-size drill. This will leave just a smallthickness of the bar that needs to be tapped through, but yet will stillprovide plenty of strength. No need to tap all the way through a 3/4insteel bar...about 3 - 5 threads cut per hole is about all that's needed. Credit for this wonderful idea goes to Frank Armburster of ColoradoBootstrap, as this is way his forms are done. Mike - thread bare - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Jun 24 12:31:26 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA11751 for Subject: Re: soggy rods John Cooper wrote: some clipped hereYour boat experience is valuable, although you don'tsay whether you eventually used your own mix, or the Deks Olje. We used my oil-varnish mix on teak decks and bright-work, longleafyellow- pine hull, some Cuban mahogany interior fittings, etc. The mixwas varied in resin content according to penetration need, number ofcoats, etc. Do you know No, I cannot tell for certain that Deks Olje is an oil-varnish mix, butit seems to have all the common properties. What sort of oil? What sort ofvarnish? I have always used "boiled" linseed oil, but would like to try stand oilsome time. For varnish, which simply adds more resins to the oil, I usedU.V resistant Urethane, but commonly used a good quality spar onfurniture. I would never advocate the use of urethane on rods, toodifficult to remove. Do you know whether the treatment was a long-term success? Yes, it was a success. That does not however, mean it is superior forrods. I have found a few warm, very thin coats of spar and consistentuse of a hard wax has kept my antique cane rods "snappy". I have rods 90years old, free of sets and still casting well, with this approach. If (effectively) this treatment sucks dilute varnish into the wood, does itthen maintain its integrity better than when attacked externally by UV.,ordoes ultimately 'go off' inside the material, rendering the (rod) useless? I would believe that without pressure or vaccuum treatment, thelikelihood of getting more than a few thous penetration of the sealantis low. Should one be considering such a course of action - after all, it's easy toget degraded coatings off a surface, but practically impossible to getthemout from within the internal structure of the material. True. And most of the impregnated rods have been notoriously mediocrecasting instruments. But if the object is longevity rather thanquality... from my observations, the sole benefit of impregnation is that the userneed not take the simple precautions of wiping down the rod beforeputting it away. Perhaps others can comment on this. some clipped here If the treatment was eventually found to be suitable for rods, a simpletwoday soak in a dip tube would probably be all that was required forpermanentprotection. It might also be possible to 'top-up' the protection withguidesin place, because this stuff can just be wiped off, leaving no residue. Itake your point about its cost - #12 ($19) here, for 1 litre. That'soutrageous, but one litre would probably treat 150 rods, so it's notreallya significant part of the total cost of the rod. I may be talking complete crap, and maybe the treatment would behopeless.Perhaps there would be changes in the action of any rod treated thus (forgood or ill). Perhaps such treatment would cause sections to twist: if so,could this be corrected permanently? I don't think your suggested method would provide impregnation,(replacement of cell moisture with resin) so it should work fine. Terry Ackland's partial impregnation method sounds particularlyinteresting.I wonder what he's using. I'm promulgating all this in the hope of receiving some informedcomment. John Cooper (UK.)Best regards,Reed from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Tue Jun 24 16:50:19 1997 0000 Subject: short rod tapers does anyone have a taper for a 4 or 5ft., 1 piece rod??? thanks! Matt from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jun 24 16:51:05 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods In a message dated 97-06-24 15:54:57 EDT, you write: Terry Ackland's partial impregnation method sounds particularlyinteresting.I wonder what he's using. I'm promulgating all this in the hope of receiving some informedcomment. John Cooper (UK.) A little while back we had a discussion on immersing a blankin tung oil and then pulling a vacuum on it to drive the tung oilinside the rod. My "drain the varnish" dip tube lends itself nicelyto this process, and I have tried it on a scrap piece of gluedup blank. I immersed the short section and pulled a vacuum for15 minutes and let it sit in the tung oil for an hour, then took itout and let it sit at room conditions. After about a week, I cutthe section to see how far in the tung oil penetrated. It looked likeit went all the way through. But, it also looked like the tung oil didnot dry inside either. Does it keep moisture out? I don't know.I would suppose that the tung oil would not let the moisture injust because it's taking up the space the moisture would. Idon't know if the tung oil would eventually dry or not. Darryl Hayashida from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Jun 24 18:31:26 1997 Subject: Test Test - is this thing dead - did Grayrock eat all the listers? WHAT!!!!!! from sall@eol.ime.net Tue Jun 24 20:23:29 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods I can't help to respond to a testy letter regarding rod finishes,particularly from someone who also sails as I do. I have been using epifanes yacht varnish. Three coats. It is hard asnails and if it protects the rod as well as my mahogany cabin I will bepleased. It also gives a glass like finish. The varnish coupled withbaking the bamboo until it turns a little brown seems to make for a muchstiffer and springier rod. I have made many of Garrisons tapers and I will admit that some are muchtoo spongy for my liking. I do like the 7'6" rod very much but the 8'0"in particular is quite soft. Maybe it is my craftmanship. Well if youare looking for a new finish try epifanes. Mike Palumbo from KDLoup@aol.com Tue Jun 24 22:39:10 1997 Subject: ferrules I would appreciate a brief pro and con of regular ferrules vs. truncatedferrules. I haven't come across anything in my reading. If I had to guess,truncated ferrules are stressed more (disadvantage), but have less weight,orinfluence, on the action of lighter rods or multi-sectioned rods(advantage).Correct? Thanks. Kurt from harry37@epix.net Wed Jun 25 07:58:38 1997 IAA24347 Subject: Re: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Well - It has been decided that the rod will be raffled off with theproceeds going to the George Mason Chapter - ear marked for the AuSable&Manistee Restoration fund and the George Griffith Foundation. Michiganhasraffle laws that make this easier to impliment. The decision has beenmade tolimit the raffle to the original idea of just one rod. Larry Cory is doing alimited edition print that will be the raffle ticket - Larry has won theMichigan Trout Stamp and many other competions - The theme will be abrooktrout and a bamboo rod. Luis is contrbuting a book that he will makespecial.The ticket price will be $50 but there is discussion about the quantity(300or 500). Fly Rod & Reel is commited to a couple of blurbs. And thosemakersvolunteering are as follows ( I haven't got my mail today so the list maybeincomplete) 1 - Chris Bogart2 - John Zimmy3 - Miles Tiernan4 - Mike Biondo5 - Dennis Higham6 - Doug Hall7 - Al Medved8 - Jon Parker9 - Ken Rongey10 - John Gallas11 - Per Brandin - Per is working on Mario W12 - Darryl Whitehead13 - Paul French14 - Carlos Santos15 - Wayne - Matt - Lyndi Cattanach Some of the above makers have asked to reserve another 6 slots - sothatthey can pry on their friends & Steve Southard has asked us to reserve aslotas well. 16 - decision17 - decision18 - decision19 - decision20 - decision21 - decision22 - decision23 - open24 - open So far the logistics are such that it might be wise to just start withthe east doing the butt - the west doing the mid and the midwest thetips -so far no one really cares where the names end up at. Al Bellinger isdoing acustom seat which they will sign and Darryl Whitehead has offered anagatestripper. Color of wraps? A volunteer to do the finish ? Wayne, Although I'm mostly an observer to all of the exchanges here, I'd liketo put my request in for a ticket when they're finally available--$50seems like a reasonable cost for the cause and for the prize.please put my name on a ticket when you get them, and let me know whereI send my check. Greg Kuntz from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Wed Jun 25 09:01:56 1997 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,25 Jun 1997 09:02:09 CST Subject: Test, don't read test from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wed Jun 25 09:19:11 1997 Subject: Re: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update RO>Wayne, RO>Although I'm mostly an observer to all of the exchanges here, I'd likeRO>to put my request in for a ticket when they're finally available-- $50RO>seems like a reasonable cost for the cause and for the prize.RO>please put my name on a ticket when you get them, and let me knowwhereRO>I send my check. RO>Greg Kuntz Ditto. How do I get on the ticket list? Don Burns from dlkd@agate.net Wed Jun 25 09:36:00 1997 service.agate.net (1.00) with SMTP id KAA29805 for Subject: Re: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update At 07:19 AM 6/25/97 -0600, you wrote: RO>Wayne, RO>Although I'm mostly an observer to all of the exchanges here, I'd likeRO>to put my request in for a ticket when they're finally available-- $50RO>seems like a reasonable cost for the cause and for the prize.RO>please put my name on a ticket when you get them, and let me knowwhereRO>I send my check. RO>Greg Kuntz Ditto. How do I get on the ticket list? Don Burns At the risk of sounding like a tagalong, me too!dinky dave dow from michael@tci.wustl.edu Wed Jun 25 09:59:50 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods Darryl seez... A little while back we had a discussion on immersing a blankin tung oil and then pulling a vacuum on it to drive the tung oilinside the rod. My "drain the varnish" dip tube lends itself nicelyto this process, and I have tried it on a scrap piece of gluedup blank. ... Darryl used a vacuum, and I've heard of others using pressure. I was wondering if one method has any advantages over the other?In a recent article in _The Planing Form_ on resin inpregnation,the author used a combination of both...according to the author,the vacuum to open the pores of the cane, followed by pressureto force the resins into the opened pores. Anyone out there have further thoughts on the process... Mike - in a vacuum - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jun 25 10:26:58 1997 Subject: Re: 'The Makers Rod 98' - Update In a message dated 97-06-25 09:40:24 EDT, you write: A volunteer to do the finish ? Well... since a lot of discussion has gone back and forth about my"drain the varnish" dip tube, I suppose it would be appropriate forme to volunteer to do the finish with it. Darryl Hayashida from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Jun 25 11:15:17 1997 LAA01210; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:15:08 -0500 Subject: Re: soggy rods Darryl, An interesting experiment. I'm suprised that the tung oil went all the way through the test blank. I'd be very worried however about the tung oil not drying inside the blank. Tung oil (like linseed oil) dries or polymerizes by actually crosslinking double bonds in the oil molecules by reaction with oxygen from the air. I'd be afraid that the tung oil on the outside of rod might polymerize and seal in unreacted tung oil in the blank. How would a rod soggy with a finishing oil cast? I don't know. Phenolics also crosslink but via a different method no requiring atmospheric oxygen, this may be why phenolic impregnation is practiced. If you couldn't guess, I'm a chemist. Mark in LA On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-06-24 15:54:57 EDT, you write: Terry Ackland's partial impregnation method sounds particularlyinteresting.I wonder what he's using. I'm promulgating all this in the hope of receiving some informedcomment. John Cooper (UK.) A little while back we had a discussion on immersing a blankin tung oil and then pulling a vacuum on it to drive the tung oilinside the rod. My "drain the varnish" dip tube lends itself nicelyto this process, and I have tried it on a scrap piece of gluedup blank. I immersed the short section and pulled a vacuum for15 minutes and let it sit in the tung oil for an hour, then took itout and let it sit at room conditions. After about a week, I cutthe section to see how far in the tung oil penetrated. It looked likeit went all the way through. But, it also looked like the tung oil didnot dry inside either. Does it keep moisture out? I don't know.I would suppose that the tung oil would not let the moisture injust because it's taking up the space the moisture would. Idon't know if the tung oil would eventually dry or not. Darryl Hayashida from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Jun 25 16:50:02 1997 QAA03301; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:49:47 -0500 Subject: Re: soggy rods I really don't believe that a vacuum "opens the pores of the cane". I believe what it most likely does is remove the volatile materials (including water vapor from the atmosphere) which have become adsorbed the cane itself in those pores. Thus a vacuum treatment prior to impregnation should give better impregnation when pressure is used thereafter since the applied pressure should force the impregnationg material into the pores that have now been emptied with greaterefficiency.As a chemist I vacuum dry many materials, but have never experimented with bamboo. Maybe I should start. Unfortunately none of my vacuum ovens are the right shape (or long enough for a section of cane rod). It shouldn't be too difficult to build the needed device (in my spare time, at the moment that is between 2 am and 6 am, times I normally reserve sleep!). Mark in LA On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 michael@tci.wustl.edu wrote: Darryl seez... A little while back we had a discussion on immersing a blankin tung oil and then pulling a vacuum on it to drive the tung oilinside the rod. My "drain the varnish" dip tube lends itself nicelyto this process, and I have tried it on a scrap piece of gluedup blank. ... Darryl used a vacuum, and I've heard of others using pressure. I was wondering if one method has any advantages over the other?In a recent article in _The Planing Form_ on resin inpregnation,the author used a combination of both...according to the author,the vacuum to open the pores of the cane, followed by pressureto force the resins into the opened pores. Anyone out there have further thoughts on the process... Mike - in a vacuum - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Jun 25 17:42:33 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA12273 for Subject: Silk line refinishing margin of an old book (Making and Using the Fly and Leader by Paul H.Young, 1938). "Refinishing Line 1 part Spar Varnish1 part Turpentine8 part Boiled Linseed Oil Rub on with cloth - clean extra off after 4-5 hours - Dry 24 hours." The old oil-varnish mix again. I think I've seen this recipe for linesbefore.Best regards, Reed from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Jun 25 17:48:59 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA12459 for Subject: Re: It's A Party (Dateline Grayrock) brian & michelle creek wrote:body clipped for brevity Brian P.S. - Reed - If, God-forefend, you should come upon hard times in thenext year I'd be happy to buy that line and even the reel, for thatmatter. Brian,Sorry, the line is now on a new reel that I received in a trade withChris. It looks at home. The Young reel I gave to my son.I will keep my eye open for another 5-6 WF silk, its not impossible. Ihave a couple of 6?DT silks that I will bring next year for you to try.Best regards,Reed from KDLoup@aol.com Wed Jun 25 19:03:54 1997 Subject: Ferrules Apparently, my first post must have gotten lost because I never saw itlisted. Anyway, I was wondering about the pros and cons of truncatedferrules vs. regular length ferrules. I assume that truncated ferrules havehigher stress levels compared to regular length ferrules, but to theirbenefit, lessen the influence on the action of lighter rods ormulti-sectioned rods due to the weight reduction. Am I correct? If not,isthere any reason to choose truncated over regular ferrules? Thanks. KurtLoup from jonrc@atlantic.net Wed Jun 25 20:13:19 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02749 for; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:20:07 -0400 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA24144 for; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:13:10 -0400 Subject: Re: short rod tapers Matt Leiderman wrote: does anyone have a taper for a 4 or 5ft., 1 piece rod??? thanks! Matt Matt, here are two 5' one piece rods I've made. They are both 4wts butwith different actions. The first one was from the planing form a whileago. The second one is patterend after Wayne's 6'3". They are both goodtapers, Have fun. Blackjack Wayne's 00 .063 00 .07005 .080 05 .07510 .096 10 .09415 .110 15 .10920 .122 20 .12625 .135 25 .14230 .150 30 .15635 .172 35 .16040 .206 40 .17145 .245 45 .18650 .273 50 .19455 .282 55 .19460 .282 60 .194 -- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from Fquinchat@cac.net Wed Jun 25 20:45:09 1997 1997 21:50:36 EDT Subject: The Makers Rod98 I'd be happy to plane a strip or anything else to contribute to theproject. Thanks to everyone for the great time at Grayrock. Sorry I had toleave early. Dennis Bertram from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Jun 25 20:45:57 1997 VAA11956 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:45:30 - Subject: North Eastern Bamboo Rod Builders Gathering, Grand River, Ont. Sorry for a delay in reporting on the Ontario Rod Gathering, but I've hadto "tough it out" striper fishing in Martha's Vineyard for a week. Alsoprevented me from getting to the Gray Rock Gathering. Hooked a 25 lb.trophy, but that's another story. The first ever North Eastern Bamboo Rod Builders Gathering was held onMay30, 31, on the Grand River, near Fergus, Ontario. In keeping with itslocation the event was truly a "Grand Gathering". Over 50 registrants andguests from as far east as Nova Scotia, and as far west as BritishColumbia, attended the 2-day happening and post-Gathering feedback hasbeenpositively exhuberant. The general consensus seems to be that we mustholdanother next year, same time, same location. Fergus is about 2 hours frombuffalo or 3 hours from Detroit, so if you are within a day's drive, whynot mark this weekend in your 1998 calendar. More detail will beforthcoming before the Roscoe Gathering in September. The general format of the "Grand Gathering" consisted of concurrent topicscovering advanced and beginner skill topics. This worked out very well,and I suspect we have about a dozen first time rod builders who will bebusy this winter. We are specially indebted to master rod builders GeorgeMaurer, John Zimny, John Long, Ron Barch, Bill Waara and John Bokstromforcontributing their expertise to making the "Gathering" a success. The planning and logistics of getting everything to run smoothly was takencare of by the team of Ted Knott, James Bond, Roy DiGiusti, Carl O'Connor,Ray Blades, Gary Allen, Derek Strub and George Carcao. Thanks, guys, foran effective and worry-free two days. Next year's "Grand Gathering" has a lot to recommend it . . . pleasantlocation, good brown trout fishing, usefull information, and "grand"company. from brookside.rod@juno.com Wed Jun 25 21:09:20 1997 22:07:30 EDT Subject: impregnating bamboo rods To interested parties: Take one pressure vessel capable of containing a few glued up rodsections, and a vacuum of at least 27 inches of mercury. Throw in thesections and screw on the cover. Draw a vacuum on the pressure vessel.Evacuate all the air from the vessel (and all the air from the cells ofthe bamboo at the same time). Slowly introduce an impregnant into thepressure vessel which will be transported into the cells of the bamboo(because there is no air in the cells). When the pressure in the vesselreturns to ambiant conditions remove the rod sections. Cure theimpregnant. You just impregnated a cane rod! There's all sorts of different variations on this theme. Good luck. Any questions, e-mail me or post the forum. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com maker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rods Brookside Rod Co. 37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770-3101 from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jun 25 22:15:51 1997 Subject: For Those Interested The following have graciously volunteered to provide the needed strips The List of Makers 1 - Ron Barch - The Planing Form & Alder Creek2 - Mike Biondo - "Listserve Guy" Rodmakers 3 - Chris Bogart - Shenandoah Rods4 - Glen Brackett & Jeff Walker - R. L. Winston Rods5 - Per Brandin - Brandin Splitcane Fishing Rods6 - Wayne, Matt, & Lyndi Cattanach - Cattanach Rod Co7 - Jonathan Clarke - Twin Pines Rod Co8 - Gary Dabrowski - Brookside Rod Co9 - Bill Fink-10 - Paul French -11 - John Gallas - 12 - Doug Hall -13 - Dennis Higham -14 - @#%! *&^%$# & Bob Poole - The National Geographic 15 - George Maurer - Sweet Water Rods16 - Al Medved -17 - Jon W. Parker - Parker Rods18 - Ken Rongey -19 - Carlos Santos - Santos Rods20 - Tom Smithwick -21 - Miles Tiernan -22 - Jeff Wagner -23 - Darryl Whitehead -24 - John Zimny - Some have suggested that there should be more of a focus to bring insome of the perhaps better know rodmakers - my answer to those thathavesuggested it is this. The above list represents what I and others think arethe who' s - who of the spirit of bamboo rodmaking - these are the folksthathave supported the get togethers and the advancement of the craft and areinterested in helping the streams that we fish. Many are member of thislistand have taken an active part at helping others achieve the dream ofmakingthat first rod. Unfortunately, it is limiting, there are many more thatdeserve a place so in the years to come there will be rotation so that allwanting to will have their chance at participating in the continuation ofthis project. Because this all spun out of TTBBBQ which represents the Rodmakersaswell as the Flyfishing Group from Compuserve - those involved want tokeep abalance - maximize support for the rivers but do so in a manner that willretain the character of the events surrounding TTBBBQ. To do so all levelsmust be considered. All rodmakers must feels that they are welcome toparticipate and all wishing to help financially must feel that they are ableto add support as well.At persent Steve Southard, Vic Edwards, and myself have acted as anunofficial committee on this project but we have sought wise counsel ofourcircle of friends. This is basically by default, we were involved togetherwith this years events and only acting to get the ball rolling. On a personalside, this is not a Wayne only thing - I hope that from here on out thatthere will be those in different regions that will pitch in getting sectionsmade and then glued and then passed on for assembly and finish. Perhapsatthis point several issues should be brought up for comment. We're launchedbut is the course correct????To create a promotional piece - it has been suggested that each makerperhaps write a short description of their work (typical ad) but also writeabit of what rodmaking means to them or what being involved with thisprojectmight mean to them or who stream improvement is important to them -youshould have the idea. For those online we would appreciate thisinformationso that a brochure can be available along with the raffle tickets with alaunch date of Aug 3 - this dovetails with the start of the FFF conclavewhich is local here in Grand Rapids this year. Thought was to give eachperson involved a page of the brochure in a 5.5 x 8.5 size. If you couldplease forward to my home address(below). my book? A schedule for completion would be early Janurary so that therodcan be displayed at the flyfishing shows that start to occur at that timeofyear. I have a excellent piece of bamboo that can be split up and sent outbythe first of the week - Perhaps a 2x2x2 node staggering with Al and Chrismaking nodeless in unison and placed opposing each other. No one hasrequested any particular piece so as I mentioned earlier - a group leader from each region with them gluing the strips and coordinating shippingandsuch. Comments????? Lots to Think AboutWayne from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Jun 25 22:47:50 1997 Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods Gary et al,Has anyone looked at a coss section of cane after the vacuum had beendrawn? Is there a danger of rupturing the cell wall. I do know thatplant materials with liquid in the cells tend to show damaged cell wallswhen submitted to vacuums of great pressure( or the inverse,ofcourse).Zimny from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Wed Jun 25 23:18:41 1997 0000 Subject: perfectly straight??? i'm working on my first rod and at the point of straightening the rawstripsbefore rough planning. i guess my question is...do the strips HAVE to beabsoulutly, perfectly straight as an arrow??? for the most part, mystripsare straight, but there are a couple very small "kinks" in a few areasbetween the nodes, that i have spent a decent amount of time working on,andhave either straightened that part, but got another part of the strip "outof wack" or was unable to straighten. any info on this subject is VERYmuchappreciated! THANKS!!!! Matt from brookside.rod@juno.com Thu Jun 26 06:21:33 1997 07:20:56 EDT Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:39:48 -0400 John Zimny writes:Gary et al,Has anyone looked at a coss section of cane after the vacuum had beendrawn? Is there a danger of rupturing the cell wall. I do know thatplant materials with liquid in the cells tend to show damaged cell wallswhen submitted to vacuums of great pressure( or the inverse,ofcourse).Zimny To John and other interested builders: Cell walls can rupture if they are sufficiently moist. I believe that inour case there may be a split or two due to the drying of cell wallcomponents during tempering and adhesive cure cycles but no ruptures. Any intercellular rifts would likely be in the direction of cellorientation and therefore not detrimental to the fibers in the matrix. I've had cross section, diagonal section and longitudinal section samplesof my work under a 1000x inspection microscope and with the exceptionofevidence of deep impregnant penetration see no other effect to thebamboo. Best regards; Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Thu Jun 26 08:16:07 1997 IAA05798; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:15:56 -0500 Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods One important piece is missing from this recipe. How long do you evacuate the vessel for? It will make a difference since plant cell walls are cellulosic and more resistant to water loss (and probably air loss) than animal cell walls which are made of non- structural lipids. A short evacuation time will impregnate only very accessible pores. Will a longer evacuation time cause a better impregnation by making morevolume of the cane available to the impregnant? Mark in LA On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Gary Dabrowski wrote: To interested parties: Take one pressure vessel capable of containing a few glued up rodsections, and a vacuum of at least 27 inches of mercury. Throw in thesections and screw on the cover. Draw a vacuum on the pressure vessel.Evacuate all the air from the vessel (and all the air from the cells ofthe bamboo at the same time). Slowly introduce an impregnant into thepressure vessel which will be transported into the cells of the bamboo(because there is no air in the cells). When the pressure in the vesselreturns to ambiant conditions remove the rod sections. Cure theimpregnant. You just impregnated a cane rod! There's all sorts of different variations on this theme. Good luck. Any questions, e-mail me or post the forum. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com maker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rods Brookside Rod Co. 37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770-3101 from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Thu Jun 26 08:18:44 1997 IAA05824; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:18:42 -0500 Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods A good point, which makes the lack of a time factor in Gary Dabroski's message even more critical. Mark in LA On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, John Zimny wrote: Gary et al,Has anyone looked at a coss section of cane after the vacuum had beendrawn? Is there a danger of rupturing the cell wall. I do know thatplant materials with liquid in the cells tend to show damaged cell wallswhen submitted to vacuums of great pressure( or the inverse,ofcourse).Zimny from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Jun 26 08:45:57 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrules In a message dated 6/26/97 6:03:15 AM, you wrote: Personally, I prefer the truncated ferrules, and I also think the lighterweight preserves more of the rod action. At first, I used them only onlightrods, but after a discussion with Bailey at CSE, I am comfortable usingthemon heavier rods also. If a rod is to see very heavy duty service, thestandard ferrule might be more rugged or longer wearing, but in generalyouwill have no problem with the truncated version. -- Tom from michael@tci.wustl.edu Thu Jun 26 09:21:15 1997 Subject: Re: perfectly straight??? Matt seez... i'm working on my first rod and at the point of straightening the rawstripsbefore rough planning. i guess my question is...do the strips HAVE to beabsoulutly, perfectly straight as an arrow??? for the most part, mystripsare straight, but there are a couple very small "kinks" in a few areasbetween the nodes, ... Matt, I think you will find that those "small kinks" are the onesthat will get you. Long sweeping curves aren't so bad because theplane will force the strip down into the form. But those small kinksresist being pushed completely flat against the form. The formprovides your taper. If your strip cannot be made to conform to theplaning form, it will be very difficult to get an accurate taper onthe strip. Mike - kinky - BiondoSt. Louis, Mo. from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jun 26 10:06:05 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods In a message dated 97-06-26 05:56:39 EDT, you write: Phenolics also crosslink but via a different method no requiring atmospheric oxygen, this may be why phenolic impregnation ispracticed. If you couldn't guess, I'm a chemist. Do you have an opinion on what the best phenolic would be in thisapplication? And perhaps where I might get some? Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jun 26 10:11:24 1997 Subject: Re: perfectly straight??? In a message dated 97-06-26 08:34:33 EDT, you write: i guess my question is...do the strips HAVE to beabsoulutly, perfectly straight as an arrow??? Small kinks tend to get planed out if you are, as you mentioned,straightening the raw strips. It does make it easier to plane ifthe strips are straight enough to lay straight in your planing form. Darryl Hayashida from mcreek@sirus.com Thu Jun 26 11:26:13 1997 Subject: Re: It's A Party (Dateline Grayrock) Reed -Thanks for introducing me to silk lines, and for your rod handlingpointers. (Should I really have thanked you for making me aware of yet another wayto spend sizable chunks of cash in the pursuit of fishy fun?)I'm going to keep an eye out for silk lines here, also, now that I amspoiled! Tight (silk) lines, Brian from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jun 26 12:36:55 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods In a message dated 97-06-26 11:54:37 EDT, you write: I really don't believe that a vacuum "opens the pores of the cane". I believe what it most likely does is remove the volatile materials (including water vapor from the atmosphere) which have becomeadsorbed by the cane itself in those pores. Thus a vacuum treatment prior to impregnation should give better impregnation when pressure is used thereafter since the applied pressure should force the impregnationg material into the pores that have now been emptied with greaterefficiency. I used to work in a petroleum testing lab many years ago. I worked ontesting the various strata that held the different hydrocarbons. I had tosaturate different types of rocks with various fluids, and one phase wassaturating a dry rock with water. As it turns out, putting a porous objectunder a fluid and applying pressure doesn't thoroughly saturate the object.What happens is the air trapped inside compresses as pressure is applied, then expands again as pressure is relieved, pushing the fluid back out.If a vacuum is applied first, the air is taken out, and there is nothing leftto expand and push the fluid back out. We found that vacuum and thesubsequent atmospheric pressure to drive the fluid into the rocks wasmore than enough to thoroughly saturate almost all rock samples. Sincebamboo is much more porous than most of the rocks I tested, I doubtpressure over atmospheric is needed. Some of the crude oils I had tosaturate the rocks with were much thicker than tung oil. DArryl Hayashida from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Jun 26 13:07:33 1997 Subject: Re: perfectly straight??? Matt Leiderman wrote: i'm working on my first rod and at the point of straightening the rawstripsbefore rough planning. i guess my question is...do the strips HAVE to beabsoulutly, perfectly straight as an arrow??? for the most part, mystripsare straight, but there are a couple very small "kinks" in a few areasbetween the nodes, that i have spent a decent amount of time workingon, andhave either straightened that part, but got another part of the strip "outof wack" or was unable to straighten. any info on this subject is VERYmuchappreciated! THANKS!!!! Matt Matt,Straight is straight.Zimny from brookside.rod@juno.com Thu Jun 26 17:10:29 1997 18:05:35 EDT Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods I would imagine that you would want to evacuate the vessel long enough toget the atmosphere out. The many discussions I have had with individualsin the wood products industry whose firms practice the impregnation offorest products lead me to believe that once the vessel is evacuated sois the material to be impregnated. As for moisture content the cane tobe impregnated has already been tempered which has dried out thematerialto some extant. For good measure I oven dry my sticks to 8% or less(measured) moisture content before they go into the pressure vessel. As for how long the sticks should be under impregnant, well thats up toyou and your experiments. Only you know the rod action, finishappearence and quality you wish to present in your work. writes:One important piece is missing from this recipe. How long do you evacuate the vessel for? It will make a difference since plant cell walls are cellulosic and more resistant to water loss (and probably air loss) than animal cell walls which are made of non- structural lipids. A short evacuation time will impregnate only very accessible pores. Will a longer evacuation time cause a better impregnation by making more volume of the cane available to the impregnant? Mark in LA On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Gary Dabrowski wrote: To interested parties: Take one pressure vessel capable of containing a few glued up rodsections, and a vacuum of at least 27 inches of mercury. Throw in thesections and screw on the cover. Draw a vacuum on the pressure vessel.Evacuate all the air from the vessel (and all the air from the cells ofthe bamboo at the same time). Slowly introduce an impregnant into thepressure vessel which will be transported into the cells of the bamboo(because there is no air in the cells). When the pressure in the vesselreturns to ambiant conditions remove the rod sections. Cure theimpregnant. You just impregnated a cane rod! There's all sorts of different variations on this theme. Good luck. Any questions, e-mail me or post the forum. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com maker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rods Brookside Rod Co. 37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770-3101 from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Thu Jun 26 18:26:43 1997 SAA08483; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:26:40 -0500 Subject: Re: soggy rods Most of the pure crosslinked type phenolic resins require a crosslinking agent. Use of these two together in your dip tube would have you chipping the rod section out of a solid hunk of polymer. However, small pieces (molecular sized) pieces can be dissolved in organic vehicles such as 2- pentanone (methyl propyl ketone or propyl methyl ketone) or other suitable organic solvent and are used as spar type varnishes. Twovarnishesof this type are PPG Rez Clear Spar Varnish 77-10 and Varathane LiquidPlasticGloss Phenolic Varnish. I don't know if either are really suitable (if thephenolic resin content is truly high enough). I would expecty if you used these products you would have to let your rod section dry for a truly longtime to let the organic solvent evaporate completely. I still don't personally believe that at soon as you pull a vacuum that the pores in the bamboo would be empty of air. It takes a while. Darryl while you were sending oil through porous rock, I was working with Dow in Michigan (a drastic change from Southern California where I moved from, there's never any snow in Westwood) treating catalyst supports trying toget the air and water out of the pores and of the surface of materials such as alumina, silica, etc. Evacuation of pores is not immediate. Furthermore, with cellulosics, I would expect water vaper to recondense in the pores immediately after drying since cellulosics have tons of hydroxyl groups on their surfaces which interact extremely well with water causingphysisorption and and chemisorption. Maybe I'm looking to get rid of more than is needed an impregnation technique, however. What is anybody else using for an impregnating solution? On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-06-26 05:56:39 EDT, you write: Phenolics also crosslink but via a different method no requiring atmospheric oxygen, this may be why phenolic impregnation ispracticed. If you couldn't guess, I'm a chemist. Do you have an opinion on what the best phenolic would be in thisapplication? And perhaps where I might get some? Darryl Hayashida from brookside.rod@juno.com Fri Jun 27 05:30:26 1997 06:29:15 EDT Subject: Re: impregnating bamboo rods Tony; Try suppliers to the chemestry and chemical industry, that is, firmswhich supply laboratories in industry and education. Alternatively,distributers of the products of Union Carbide and GE Plastics Division. You would be inquiring after single component heat cured polymers whichmay or may not require catylists or curing agents. This stuff is notavailable in quart containers. Be prepared to buy big. Consider firstlooking into obtaining the components of the hardware which you may needbefore buying resins. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 U.S.A. On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:44:20 +0800 (WST) Tony Youngwrites:Gary, I want to try the cane rod impregnation system you explained in a recent posting, but I haven't the slightest idea of where to get the phenolic resin from or what it may be called. Brand names wont be much use here, but any advise on what industry is using it etc would be useful.Any clues here? Thanks Tony. /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 27 14:33:22 1997 Subject: Re: perfectly straight??? In a message dated 6/26/97 9:50:55 PM, you wrote: Matt - As long as the strips will sit reasonably well in the planing formthey are straight enough. What you want to avoid is having the strip twistinthe form and cause the angles to go askew. A sharp kink or a bump at anodewill sometimes cause this. Experience will teach you how much curvatureyoucan live with. - Tom from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Jun 27 15:35:22 1997 Subject: A Grayrock Story During the get together there are often swaps and deals arranged. Sortoflike trading marbles as a kid. Anyhow, it seems that a certain unamedindividual was extremely interested in a rod that he was casting. But intheprocess of investigating the availability of this particular rod it surfacedthat the interested unamed individual had himself parted with the rod acouple of years earlier. When confronted with these facts his commentwas: "Well, that's sorta like remarrying your x wife". from jockscott@sprynet.com Fri Jun 27 15:45:56 1997 NAA04157 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:45:52 -0700 Subject: Re: ferrules KDLoup@aol.com wrote: I would appreciate a brief pro and con of regular ferrules vs. truncatedferrules. I haven't come across anything in my reading. If I had to guess,truncated ferrules are stressed more (disadvantage), but have lessweight, orinfluence, on the action of lighter rods or multi-sectioned rods(advantage).Correct? Thanks. KurtIntroduction: I am a Washington State builder who apprentaced under THESeattle Builder of renown, I've built about 15 to 20 Rods a year, forthe last 5 yrs.I enjoy the work and have an understanding spouse whodoesnt believe for a minute that I am actually tryng to make money This is my first contribution to this list, I just as well muddy thewaters with my cloudy preceptions so here goes;I have used both truncated and regular Super Z on my rods. I like thereduction in weight offered by the truncated butt have found them to bea little sticky, usually I have to fit them a little looser than I like.My observations my be clouded by the fact that my rods see hard use onwestern freestone streams where long casts are the norm. I still use truncated ferrules on three piece rods under 8', I likesecurity more than weight reduction on longer rods. from d-deloach1@ti.com Fri Jun 27 16:07:51 1997 with ESMTP id QAA14087 for ; Fri, 27 Jun dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id SLVHABAL; Fri,27 Jun 1997 16:07:01 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: ferrules I'm curious what the typical weight savings is here--I'm guessing 1/4ounce atthe most. Does it really make that much of an overall weight difference?Seemseasier and just to go with the full length ferrules. My $.02 Don DeLoach ------------------Original text KDLoup@aol.com wrote: I would appreciate a brief pro and con of regular ferrules vs. truncatedferrules. I haven't come across anything in my reading. If I had to guess,truncated ferrules are stressed more (disadvantage), but have lessweight, orinfluence, on the action of lighter rods or multi-sectioned rods(advantage).Correct? Thanks. KurtIntroduction: I am a Washington State builder who apprentaced under THESeattle Builder of renown, I've built about 15 to 20 Rods a year, forthe last 5 yrs.I enjoy the work and have an understanding spouse whodoesnt believe for a minute that I am actually tryng to make money This is my first contribution to this list, I just as well muddy thewaters with my cloudy preceptions so here goes;I have used both truncated and regular Super Z on my rods. I like thereduction in weight offered by the truncated butt have found them to bea little sticky, usually I have to fit them a little looser than I like.My observations my be clouded by the fact that my rods see hard use onwestern freestone streams where long casts are the norm. I still use truncated ferrules on three piece rods under 8', I likesecurity more than weight reduction on longer rods. from santiago@ricochet.net Fri Jun 27 16:42:09 1997 OAA17066 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:41:56 - Subject: Re: ferrules STEVE GOBIN wrote: KDLoup@aol.com wrote: I would appreciate a brief pro and con of regular ferrules vs. truncatedferrules. I haven't come across anything in my reading. If I had toguess,truncated ferrules are stressed more (disadvantage), but have lessweight, orinfluence, on the action of lighter rods or multi-sectioned rods(advantage).Correct? Thanks. KurtIntroduction: I am a Washington State builder who apprentaced underTHESeattle Builder of renown, I've built about 15 to 20 Rods a year, forthe last 5 yrs.I enjoy the work and have an understanding spouse whodoesnt believe for a minute that I am actually tryng to make moneyThis is my first contribution to this list, I just as well muddy thewaters with my cloudy preceptions so here goes;I have used both truncated and regular Super Z on my rods. I like thereduction in weight offered by the truncated butt have found them to bea little sticky, usually I have to fit them a little looser than I like.My observations my be clouded by the fact that my rods see hard use onwestern freestone streams where long casts are the norm.I still use truncated ferrules on three piece rods under 8', I likesecurity more than weight reduction on longer rods. hi steve, glad to see you on the list. email me direct... santiago@ricochet.net from jockscott@sprynet.com Fri Jun 27 17:47:53 1997 PAA01125 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:47:48 -0700 Subject: Re: ferrules Don DeLoach wrote: I'm curious what the typical weight savings is here--I'm guessing 1/4ounce atthe most. Does it really make that much of an overall weight difference?Seemseasier and just to go with the full length ferrules. My $.02 Don DeLoach ------------------The weight difference is admitadly not great, but it does change rodaction in light rods. I don't use computer programs to generate my tapersso I can't give you a stress analysis at each joint. I have built several setsof rods from matched culms using truncated on one and full length on theother. The cane being the same there were diferances in the action.Both rods were 7' three piece Devine for a #3 line. The distance castwas not an issue but the ability to controll loops and mend were, thetruncated ferruled rod was more delacate with a crisper action. Theother rod althogh very good felt boggy in comparison, I atribute this tothe extra weight in the Mid, Tips were .048 Mid 9/64. I don't think this would have been a factor on a bigger rod. On largerrods espesially two piece rods where the sections are longer, I thinkthe shorter ferrule does not transition energy across the joint as wellas a longer ferrule does. I may be off base but I think there is morepossibility to create a stress riser with short ferrules. This wouldapply to faster tapers like Dickersons more than the parabolic tapers. I think I've stuk my foot in my mouth enough here so I'll leave tis tobetter minds from brookside.rod@juno.com Fri Jun 27 20:10:49 1997 21:09:13 EDT Subject: Impregnating bamboo Pressure after vacuum would be used if desired or required, that is itwould be part of your impregnating process if in your process developmentexperiments, its use provided desireable results. Generally pressureover vacuum techniques are used when impregnating dense wood products. As for resins, its not a question of new and better. one tries differentmaterials untill acceptable or desired results are obtained. Regards; Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Jun 28 08:11:56 1997 JAA13069 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:23:36-0400 Subject: Re: A Grayrock Story WayneI heard the same story - It seems the unnamed individualtraded the blank to the other - figuring it would not be the kind ofrod he wanted (too short - 7'). As it turned out the reciever tookthe blank and duly finishied it and turned it into a gem of a rod.the unnamed person had not seen the finished rod only theblank - however there were more than enough clues to the During the get together there are often swaps and deals arranged. Sortoflike trading marbles as a kid. Anyhow, it seems that a certain unamedindividual was extremely interested in a rod that he was casting. But intheprocess of investigating the availability of this particular rod itsurfacedthat the interested unamed individual had himself parted with the rod acouple of years earlier. When confronted with these facts his commentwas: "Well, that's sorta like remarrying your x wife". Regards Chris from bc940@freenet.uchsc.EDU Sat Jun 28 09:03:46 1997 IAA06166; Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:03:34 -0600 Subject: Tapermail? Help, I have tried sending a taper to taper mail for the last week, keepscoming back as undeliverable. Is taper mail not longer available? As aMAC user I certainly hope not. If any one has information on what isgoing on please let me know. Thanks in advaance. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado -- from sats@gte.net Sun Jun 29 11:58:58 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods ... I immersed the short section and pulled a vacuum for15 minutes and let it sit in the tung oil for an hour, then took itout and let it sit at room conditions. After about a week, I cutthe section to see how far in the tung oil penetrated. It looked likeit went all the way through. But, it also looked like the tung oil didnot dry inside either. Does it keep moisture out? I don't know.I would suppose that the tung oil would not let the moisture injust because it's taking up the space the moisture would. Idon't know if the tung oil would eventually dry or not. And would the "wet" tung oil act the same as moisture in the rod. On his way to the Great North West Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Sun Jun 29 11:58:58 1997 Subject: Re: soggy rods I really don't believe that a vacuum "opens the pores of the cane". I believe what it most likely does is remove the volatile materials (including water vapor from the atmosphere) which have become adsorbed the cane itself in those pores. Thus a vacuum treatment prior to impregnation should give better impregnation when pressure is used thereafter since the applied pressure should force the impregnationg material into the pores that have now been emptied with greaterefficiency. Many years ago I workde for a small electrical company that was buildingveryhigh voltage transformers. The problem they were having was thematerial theyused to insolate the coils would develope small gas bubles and allowshorts whenunder operation. Both vacume and pressure were used to get rid of unwanted bubles thenforce thematerial into places it did not want to go. Two veriables have been discussed here, max time and max vacume. In this discussion is consern that to much vacume might rupture the cellsof thebamboo. This brings up the third veriable which is speed of evacuation, or howquicklythe pressure drops. It could be that a drop in pressure within a specificdeltaeverythings fine, beyind that delta a much slowere drop in pressure isrequired. The same is true of pressure treatment. It may not be "how much" for"how long"as much as "how fast" On his way to the Great North WestTerry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Sun Jun 29 20:57:19 1997 (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA86 0400 Subject: Superheavy fly rods (greater than 10 wts) There was a posting a while back requesting a 12 wt taper. I am wondering if anyone responded or if anyone might have something to start from. If not, my thought is to modify a heavy Steelhead/salmon rodtaper to take a size 21 ferrule (really) and a 7 tip top. I will post this later ifanyone wants this taper sometime this fall. Does anyone have a Paul Young "Powerhouse" taper (9'6" 10 wt) or the "Florida Special" (9'0" 9wt) Jorge Carcao@myna.com from penr0295@uidaho.edu Sun Jun 29 21:05:07 1997 TAA03415 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:05:00 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id TAA27737 for ; process doing -bs Subject: Re: Re:CRS Planing form question (fwd) After a couple days of filing I now have the tapered bevels onmy steel planing forms. The tip size I used was .025, and for the tip onthe butt section I used .090 (I made the forms 5 1/2 feet long). Myquestion is this--When I was filing the bevels I routinely checked theirdepth using the extension rod of my 6" dial caliper. However, once the forms are bolted all the way together, my reading is considerably lesswhen I use my 1" dial indicator with the 60 degree contact point (.017 forthe .025 tip dimension). While this is much better that having a readingthat is too big, I am not sure what I should do. I have checked thegroove using the pointed end of my center gauge, and it appears that thegroove itself is a perfect V shape. Should I keep filing until the dialindicator says the proper reading, and assume that the measurement I gotusing the 6" caliper is too coarse? Thomas PenroseUniversity of IdahoDept. of ArtMoscow, ID 83843 from JCZIMNY@dol.net Sun Jun 29 22:18:26 1997 Subject: Re: CRS Planing form question (fwd) Thomas Penrose wrote: After a couple days of filing I now have the tapered bevels onmy steel planing forms. The tip size I used was .025, and for the tip onthe butt section I used .090 (I made the forms 5 1/2 feet long). Myquestion is this--When I was filing the bevels I routinely checked theirdepth using the extension rod of my 6" dial caliper. However, once theforms are bolted all the way together, my reading is considerably lesswhen I use my 1" dial indicator with the 60 degree contact point (.017forthe .025 tip dimension). While this is much better that having a readingthat is too big, I am not sure what I should do. I have checked thegroove using the pointed end of my center gauge, and it appears that thegroove itself is a perfect V shape. Should I keep filing until the dialindicator says the proper reading, and assume that the measurement Igotusing the 6" caliper is too coarse? Thomas PenroseUniversity of IdahoDept. of ArtMoscow, ID 83843Thomas,I know that it sounds like a non-sequitur. But measurement of the typeyou are dong is not an exact science. Try using Ted Knot's method ofinserting small rounds in the form and using a little trig to find yourdepths at different places along the lenght of the form. This method hasbeen described in the PF. Also, there is a discussion of the method inMachinery's Handbook. It is the most accurate of all the methods.Do not file any more until you know for sure. John Zimny from plipton@sunvalley.net Mon Jun 30 01:31:12 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11203) with ESMTP id AAA116 0600 Subject: Re: Impregnating bamboo Gary Dabrowski : Do you impregnate the rods you build? Is this a better way to finishrods? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jun 30 08:12:09 1997 Subject: Re: Re:CRS Planing form question (fwd) Tom - I would leave things alone for now. Slide the dial indicatorcarefullydown the form and watch the needle. If it shows a smoothly increasingdepthin the tip area, you will be OK. If there are irregularities, open the formand take a few more passes with the file to clean things up. Rememberthat itwill only take a few strokes to go too far, so be careful. If you pass theindicator test, take a 2 foot strip of cane or even hardwood, and make atesttip section strip with the form set to typical dimensions and see howcloseyou come. It sounds to me like you have been successful. Congratulations from michael@tci.wustl.edu Mon Jun 30 08:37:41 1997 Subject: Re: Tapermail? Jim writes... Help, I have tried sending a taper to taper mail for the last week, keepscoming back as undeliverable. Is taper mail not longer available? As aMAC user I certainly hope not. If any one has information on what isgoing on please let me know. Thanks in advaance. Jim, the server that TAPERMAIL resides on has been down for theseveral past days. Hopefully it will be back online soon. Sorry for the troubles... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Jun 30 14:23:50 1997 Subject: Hardcover Heddon book? I've been waiting what seems like forever for the hardcover version ofthe Michael Sinclair's "Heddon: The Rod with the Fighting Heart" toship.Did anyone take delivery of a softcover book? How is it, is it anygood? Did anyone, by any chance, get a hardcover in the mail? Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Mon Jun 30 14:54:43 1997 runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:54:37 -0500 Subject: Hardcover Heddon book? -Reply I heard that only the soft cover was available right now or at least in thenear future. from rm5552@gumby.engsvc.hazeltine.com Mon Jun 30 15:09:32 1997 (1.37.109.16/3.1.090690-Hazeltine Corporation) (4.1/SMI-4.1) Subject: Re: Hardcover Heddon book? I've been waiting what seems like forever for the hardcover version ofthe Michael Sinclair's "Heddon: The Rod with the Fighting Heart" toship.Did anyone take delivery of a softcover book? How is it, is it anygood? Did anyone, by any chance, get a hardcover in the mail? Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Don, I recently got the softcover version. I haven't had a chance to read mostofit yet, but it looks like there's plenty of info in there. I specificallybought it because I'm restoring an early Heddon baitcasting rod.Unfortunately, I only found some of the info I needed in the book. Bob Matarazzo from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jun 30 18:00:08 1997 Subject: Re: Superheavy fly rods (greater than 10 wts) In a message dated 97-06-29 22:10:29 EDT, you write: Jorge, I wonder if this should be designed as a double-built rod? Maybe someonehasa Cross rod that could be copied? Don B. from brookside.rod@juno.com Mon Jun 30 18:10:46 1997 19:09:24 EDT Subject: Re: Impregnating bamboo Phil: At this time, about 20 % of the rods which I build are finished with theimpregnation method. Folks want varnished rods. The impregnated roddoes not speak the volumes of quality and craftsmanship that thetraditional varnished rod does. is it a better way to finish? well...Each method has its advantages and shortcommings. I personally love thelook of a varnished rod. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101 On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:30:21 -0600 Philip Lipton writes:Gary Dabrowski : Do you impregnate the rods you build? Is this a better way to finishrods? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Mon Jun 30 20:43:34 1997 (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA45 0400 Subject: Re: Superheavy fly rods (greater than 10 wts) From: Canerods@aol.com Subject: Re: Superheavy fly rods (greater than 10 wts) In a message dated 97-06-29 22:10:29 EDT, you write: Date: 97-06-29 22:10:29 EDTFrom: JorgeCarcao@myna.com (Jorge Carcao)Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu There was a posting a while back requesting a 12 wt taper. I am wondering if anyone responded or if anyone might have something to start from. If not, my thought is to modify a heavy Steelhead/salmonrodtaper to take a size 21 ferrule (really) and a 7 tip top. I will post this laterif anyone wants this taper sometime this fall. Does anyone have a Paul Young "Powerhouse" taper (9'6" 10 wt) or the "Florida Special" (9'0" 9wt) Jorge Carcao@myna.com Jorge, I wonder if this should be designed as a double-built rod? Maybe someonehasa Cross rod that could be copied? Don B. Don, Because this rod will be approx. .450" at the butt, I should be able to find a suitable culm. Although I intend on using the thickest walled cane I can find, surely I will hollow it. Specifically I am concerned that this rod will end up being a club that fights fish O.K. but casts poorly. Rather than trial and error, if anyone has any ideas I am open to suggestions. Otherwise, everyone will have to wait and see this fall.