from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Mon Sep 1 08:55:56 1997 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,1 Sep 1997 08:55:39 CDT Subject: Re: African Steel Cane Read about it in Schwiebert's Trout and Sparce Gray Hackle's Fishless Daysand Angling Nights. FDAN is HIGHLY recommended, esp. for instructions oncatching a 50 lb. brown trout! from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 1 14:05:27 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11242 for Subject: test mac lkhg-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 1 14:19:06 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11459 for Subject: test mac ;lkjsafg-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seamet.com Mon Sep 1 14:44:30 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11822 for Subject: test from the PC ;lakjfsdg-- Martin Jensen from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 1 16:06:55 1997 (205.236.249.140) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues John Zimny wrote: Terence Ackland wrote: John Zimny wrote: Darryl,Most interesting that the glue that failed was a powdered form ofUrea formaldehyde-- URAC type.While the solid resin UF's have a considerably longer shelf-lifethanthe liquid formulations, they do "give up the ghost" in about ayear.It all depends upon the ambient temperature and humidity.I suspect that you got an old batch. Because that stuff should beasgood as any other UF. Indeed, it was probably made by one of thetwomanufacturers of that resin-American Cyanimid or Borden.John Zimny John,An expert at Cyanamid said that they give a 1 year shelf life tocoverthemselves. Well stored powder in sealed tubs with dessicatingcrystalsin will last a few years. I was told that when the adhesive startedtoget lumpy during mixing it was time to stop using it. I have someMelurac stored this way and it is 5 years old and still good. TerryI too have had the same experience a you. But no one knows how long or under what conditions some of that hardware store stuff is stored.John Just mentioning that formaldehyde adhesives will not set at temperaturesbelow 70F. These adhesives actually need some heat to set them off, thenthey will set in a matter of minutes. If properly used they are asuperior adhesive compared to many modern formulations and are by farstill the most widely used used adhesive in the world today. Exterior plywood is laminated from these adhesives because of theirmoisture resistance. Many curved and bent laminations also use thisadhesive because they can take the high stresses involved withoutcreeping. This is an important consideration when building flyrods.Terry from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Sep 1 17:57:04 1997 Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Did everyone else receive this post again?I didn't send it again, but here it is in myinbox again. The phantom message...it comes back to haunt you.... Sir Darryl from santiago@ricochet.net Mon Sep 1 21:26:47 1997 VAA23144 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 21:27:09 - Subject: other rodmaker listserve's does anyone know of other rodmaker listserve's or newsgroups? thanks in advance, leo from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 1 22:29:25 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA18859 for Subject: stainless in place of nickel silver? I am making reel seat components for my rods and I have some solidnickel silver to use for end caps on my sliding band reel seats. Inrummaging around in my drawer I noticed a rod of stainless that had avery similar appearance to the nickel silver. I was wondering if anyonehas used Stainless and if it would polish up to the same luster asnickel silver? I am only interested in using it for the end plates forprotection to the end of the rod when it is set down. for the slidingrings I have an ample supply of nickel silver tube.-- Martin Jensen from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Sep 2 05:06:06 1997 LAA10305 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:10:49+0100 Subject: Re: Beveler Does anyone know of any sources for power bevelers? * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 MACHINE BEVELLERS I mailed rodmakers some months ago with news that a new profesionalgradebeveller was in prospect from a small specialist engineer in Britain. Ipromised then to pass on contact information as soon as I has the go-ahead.Your request has arrived at just the right time. The new beveller is quite unique in that it has a very small footprint,allowing it to be accommodated in small workshops. It has a movingcutterhead, needle bearings in all the right places, and various highly desirableattributes that lay folks like I simply wouldn't understand. By allaccounts, the accuracy obtainable is quite remarkable. Blanks off the firstmachine are of the highest standard. One or two people already know about the machine, and I understand thatthemaker has had requests for plans of the thing. He's not quite THAT stupid,but he would be able to supply photographs to serious prospective buyers. I'm not directly connected with the maker, so there will be no point inasking further information of me, but I'm happy to offer the contact. Price,delivery expectations (see caveat below), and specifications, you willhaveto obtain direct from the maker. In advance, and in defence of my own standing in Rodmakers (very limitedIknow) let me just say that this engineer has an extremely high reputation standards. If you deal with him, don't say that you have not been warned.The man appears to have a heart of gold, so when he says that he is sorry To non-British enquirers I should also say: you MAY be able to understandhim if you phone him, but he has what one might euphemistically call a'strong Lincolnshire regional accent' so it may take you a minute or two toatune to a noise to which some Brits would have to listen hard if theyrequired to make sense of what was being said. This is a practicalcomment,not in any way a criticism. Barry GranthamBarry Grantham Engineering7 Brant RoadLincolnLN5 8RLEnglandOffice Tel. and Fax. 01522.535500His home phone is: 01522.878317 Obviously, if calling from outside Britain, you will have to use theinternational code, and I think you have to drop the first digit off theabove number. Bon chance. John Cooper (England) from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Sep 2 05:49:46 1997 LAA11415 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:54:39+0100 Subject: Re: Need Help: Refinishing Cork Handles.... A customer does NOT want me to replace the cork handles on his flyrod and instead wants me to "refinish" them. I made him understand that refinishing them would require somesanding, with the resulting loss of some cork. The blank is in goodshape, the thread somewhat faded on all guides - frayed on one. He estimates the rod to be 20+ years old, so I understand his desireto want to maintain the rod in as a original state as possible, butrepairing the cork has me stumped. A portion of the butt grip ispitted and eroded to a depth of 3/16 or so. The rest of the cork isok. My first instinct is to use commercially available cork filler(adhesive mixed with cork dust). My question to all of you is: Isthere a more "original or traditional" repair technique to restore thecork? Any tips on glues/adhesives, cork dust, etc will be greatlyappreciated. Lewis CORK FILLERS/ TURNER CHUCKS/ NICKEL SILVER If there were any useful replies to this mailing, I missed them. This is amuch under-valued part of finishing a handle. The difference that highgradefilling and sanding makes to the appearance and use of a rod is enormous.The old makers used a pretty coarse sanded finish, I know. Frankly, I don'tgive a good tinker's cuss what the old makers did, unless I'm restoring fororiginality, so I finish to an extremely fine surface by filling withChemical Wood, then sanding underwater with a tube of 1000 grade wet-n-dry. I've tried white glue and cork dust, and it's sort of OK. Still, I'd like touse something woodier than Chemical Wood, and would welcome ideas. I'verecently finished a handle with fine cork dust/ shellac filler. It looksgood, but I'm not sure how it will hold up to hard use. Any thoughts? ------------------I recently asked about rod turner chucks. Thank's for the varioussuggestions. I eventually went with the 280.904 self-centering chuckfromJanns. It's absolutely first class. Highly recommended. ------------------- My rod-fitting makers are really struggling to find sources of nickelsilvertubing, especially in larger sizes (+ - .5"). Can anyone, anywhere offerinformation on a source of tube in reasonably small quantities? John Cooper (England) from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Sep 2 07:26:41 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA04542 for Subject: RE: Splitting headache I have begun splitting culms by laying them down on a bench, this beingdone after they are split into quarters. I begin by putting the pointof my splitting knife in the center of a node and tapping it with ablock of 2x4. Once the knife begins the split I repeat the process atthe next node. I have a tremendous amount of control this way and if asplit begins to wander I can regain it by centering the knife at thenext node. Then the splits will meet halfway. I still have to refinethis method but I've been able to split a 1 3/4 - 2 inch diameter culminto 18 strips whereas using the usual method I can only get 12 or sousable strips. Brian ThomanAtlanta, GA -----Original Message-----From: EMiller257@aol.com [SMTP:EMiller257@aol.com]Sent: Saturday, August 30, 1997 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Splitting headache I learned a neat way to split nice even strips at a class taught byWayne.You probably already own a common putty knife for doing odd jobsaround thehouse. This is a great tool. Use the froe for basic splitting untilyou'vefinished splitting a half culm into thirds. Then take each piece andstartthe split with the froe but as soon as the split is started replacethe froewith a putty knife. Force the putty knife into the split end andproceed tosplit the strip. Hold the strip with your right hand and firmlypush theknife along the split with your left hand. The beauty of this methodis howmuch control you have. If the split starts to migrate away from thecenterof the strip pressure on the thicker side of the split causesmigration away from the thinner side. A little twisting of the knife propels thesplitalong right through nodes and by controlling the pressure against eachhalfof the piece being split, uniform strips become easy. I hope thishelps youout. ED MILLER from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 2 07:56:05 1997 Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well as nickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Sep 2 10:08:58 1997 Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:08:46 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well asnickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however SS will machine OK, (it will be harder than NS for sure) but the thing to remember is to ensure you don't dwell with the cutter or bit touching the SS without it actually cutting as this will not only bluntenthe edges v fast, but "burn" the SS. "Burn" isn't a good description but you'll see what I mean. So as always, but more so keep every thing sharp. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 2 10:10:19 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28237 for Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well asnickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however Thanks Tom,I agree it is a lot harder but I thought that it might provide reallygood protection on the end of the butt when the rod is set down. Also itis a lot more readily available in small quantities.-- Martin Jensen from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Tue Sep 2 10:32:41 1997 IAA21620 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:31:18 - R8.00.00) Subject: Re: landing net In an issue of Fine Woodworking from February 92, it describes the procedure for building a landing net. As far as the tying of the net bag, the article has limited information. I have built several nets and it is an enjoyable project. Since most rodbuilders already have a shop full of tools, it takes only a modest effort to get underway. from santiago@ricochet.net Tue Sep 2 11:00:51 1997 LAA29169 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:00:43 - Subject: looking for... patrick c. please email me directly. thanks, leo from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Sep 2 11:36:06 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: looking for... what do you need old buddy. patrick ----------From: Leo Santiago[SMTP:santiago@ricochet.net]Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 2:03 AM Subject: looking for... patrick c. please email me directly. thanks, leo from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Sep 2 12:08:48 1997 Subject: Re: Splitting headache In a message dated 97-09-02 08:31:59 EDT, you write: I still have to refine this method but I've been able to split a 1 3/4 - 2 inch diameter culm into 18 strips whereas using the usual method I can only get 12 or so usable strips. I hope this isn't for the whole culm? 12 to 18 strips wouldbe good for half the diameter of the culm. I usually splitthe top half (whole diameter) of a culm to 32 strips and the bottom half (because butt strips are usually wider) to 24.Almost all of them are useable, except for the ones withleaf nodes or other defects. Learning how to split the culm to this size is the biggesttime saver for rod making since the strips are closer tofinal size from the start. On my first rod I split a half diameter of a culm to 8 strips. I was planing for daysand filling whole garbage bags full of shavings. Now I spend about 30 to 45 minutes on each strip from raw strip to final spline, and one garbage bag of shavings Sir Darryl from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 2 12:34:01 1997 Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? In a message dated 9/2/97 4:18:14 PM, you wrote: Martin - I really don't know why the stuff isn't used more often in reelseats, maybe the weight, but that would not matter much on larger rodsanyway. If you have a choice, use Type 303 bar stock. This is a freemachining grade that will be a bit easier to work with. Tony's point ontechnique is well taken, if you ride the tool on the metal, it will workharden and give you fits. from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 2 13:00:50 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06283 for Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/2/97 4:18:14 PM, you wrote: good protection on the end of the butt when the rod is set down. Also itis a lot more readily available in small quantities.>> Martin - I really don't know why the stuff isn't used more often in reelseats, maybe the weight, but that would not matter much on larger rodsanyway. If you have a choice, use Type 303 bar stock. This is a freemachining grade that will be a bit easier to work with. Tony's point ontechnique is well taken, if you ride the tool on the metal, it will workharden and give you fits. Yea, That bit about the tool bit explains why I have had problems withit before. I sometimes used SS for parts at work. I have very littlelathe experience. I usually just make bushings of clean up shafts. Youknow, enough knowledge to be dangerous. I have gotten my reel seatdesign down to where I like it. It just needs a little refinement andthe metal end plate would be nice as now when I set the rod down, itsits on varnished wood. I've been careful but I know it can't last (G).The little bit of nickel silver rod I have is 1/2 inch diameter. Justbarely large enough for the end cap. I ran across a piece of SS that wasabout 3/4 at work the other day and that is what got me to thinkingbecause on the surface they were barely distinguishable from each other.I don't know it's composition though.-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Sep 2 16:18:32 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id RAA17458 for Subject: RE: Splitting headache I get about 18 strips 3/16 inch wide. I haven't been able to get muchsmaller than that without ruining too many. Brian -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Splitting headache In a message dated 97-09-02 08:31:59 EDT, you write: I still have to refine this method but I've been able to split a 1 3/4 - 2 inch diameter culm into 18 strips whereas using the usual method I can only get 12 or so usable strips. I hope this isn't for the whole culm? 12 to 18 strips wouldbe good for half the diameter of the culm. I usually splitthe top half (whole diameter) of a culm to 32 strips and the bottom half (because butt strips are usually wider) to 24.Almost all of them are useable, except for the ones withleaf nodes or other defects. Learning how to split the culm to this size is the biggesttime saver for rod making since the strips are closer tofinal size from the start. On my first rod I split a half diameter of a culm to 8 strips. I was planing for daysand filling whole garbage bags full of shavings. Now I spend about 30 to 45 minutes on each strip from raw strip to final spline, and one garbage bag of shavings Sir Darryl from brookside.rod@juno.com Tue Sep 2 18:49:04 1997 19:46:06 EDT Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? Those who use sst.l in leiu of nickel silver should be careful to choose400 or 600 series alloys. Lower grades do not contain enough of chromiumto be "stainless" and in certain circumstances even 400 series may notbe truely resistant to corrosion. Perhaps a better alternative would bethe use of the copper-nickel alloy used in steam boilers and in nuclearpower engineering. I know it as "60-40 copper-nickel" also available in70-30 % alloy. Its' lack of zinc makes it different than NI-SI in that itwould have a green(er) color, not the desireable silver-blue-white colorof NI-SI. At least it would have approximately the same machinabilityas NI-SI. Sources would be found in larger metro centers. Look in thethe THOMAS REGISTER or your local business yellow pages for a specialtyalloys distributer. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: home.onestop.net/brookside On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:08:45 +0800 (WST) Tony Youngwrites:On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well as nickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however SS will machine OK, (it will be harder than NS for sure) but the thing to remember is to ensure you don't dwell with the cutter or bit touching the SS without it actually cutting as this will not only blunten the edges v fast, but "burn" the SS. "Burn" isn't a good description but you'll see what I mean. So as always, but more so keep every thing sharp. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tpaulsen@ecity.net Tue Sep 2 19:14:24 1997 Subject: Re: landing net Tying the net bag is not that hard to do. You can get a fairly good book onthe subject from Jann's netcraft. additionally the old Herter's books haddirections, the book being the "Professional guides manule" I use thequotes only in that good g rammer demands it the rest of the book is notwhat could be considered very professional, mostly the usual line ofHertersmisinformation. Terry P At 08:55 PM 8/30/97 GMT, you wrote: In an issue of Fine Woodworking from February 92, it describes the procedure for building a landing net. As far as the tying of the net bag, the article has limited information. I have built several nets and it is an enjoyable project. Since most rodbuilders already have a shop full of tools, it takes only a modest effort to get underway. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 2 20:08:45 1997 (205.236.249.124) Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? Tony Young wrote: On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well asnickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however SS will machine OK, (it will be harder than NS for sure) but the thingtoremember is to ensure you don't dwell with the cutter or bittouching the SS without it actually cutting as this will not onlyblunten theedges v fast, but "burn" the SS. "Burn" isn't a good description butyou'll see what I mean. So as always, but more so keep every thingsharp. Tony /*** *******************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/**********************************************************************/ There is a stainless on the market that is refered to as free cuttingstainless and it is just that. Far easier to machine than the old 18/8stainless, it comes off in nice chips without birdsnesting. Your localmetal supplier will give you the rest of the information.T.A. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 2 20:56:36 1997 (205.236.249.124) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Did everyone else receive this post again?I didn't send it again, but here it is in myinbox again. The phantom message...it comes back to haunt you.... Sir Darryl Sir,I was interested in your test of adhesives in particular the failure ofthe formaldehyde glue.There are two areas that are the cause of failure of this type ofadhesive this is the curing temperature and the mating sufaces.If you tried to cure at a temperature below 70F the joint will fail.This type of glue is not gap filling like epoxy and white glue. A coupleof rubs with a plane on two pieces of scrape cane is probably not goodenough. The surfaces have to be very closely fitting as per planed upsplines.All rodmakers used this type of adhesive and they have stood the test oftime.Terry from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Sep 2 23:45:02 1997 Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:44:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Tony Young wrote: On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: Martin - Most grades of stainless will polish up at least as well asnickelsilver. You will have a harder time machining it, however SS will machine OK, (it will be harder than NS for sure) but the thingtoremember is to ensure you don't dwell with the cutter or bittouching the SS without it actually cutting as this will not onlyblunten theedges v fast, but "burn" the SS. "Burn" isn't a good description butyou'll see what I mean. So as always, but more so keep every thingsharp. Tony /*** *******************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/**********************************************************************/ There is a stainless on the market that is refered to as free cuttingstainless and it is just that. Far easier to machine than the old 18/8stainless, it comes off in nice chips without birdsnesting. Your localmetal supplier will give you the rest of the information.T.A. Terry,That's good to know thanks. I haven't turned that much SS, only what I've had to for my boat when I couldn't use bronze. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Sep 3 06:41:21 1997 Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? In a message dated 9/3/97 11:21:30 AM, you wrote: Martin - If it is non-magnetic, it is a 300 series nickel bearing stainless,most likely 302 or 303. If it is magnetic, it is most likely a 400 serieschrome/iron grade. You will find out pretty quickly if it is a freemachininggrade in either case. from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 3 14:12:08 1997 Subject: Re: Tests of Glues In a message dated 97-09-03 12:06:43 EDT, you write: I was interested in your test of adhesives in particular the failure ofthe formaldehyde glue.There are two areas that are the cause of failure of this type ofadhesive this is the curing temperature and the mating sufaces.If you tried to cure at a temperature below 70F the joint will fail.This type of glue is not gap filling like epoxy and white glue. A coupleof rubs with a plane on two pieces of scrape cane is probably not goodenough. The surfaces have to be very closely fitting as per planed upsplines.All rodmakers used this type of adhesive and they have stood the test oftime.Terry I planed them flat as I would in making a rod, and this test was doneearly this summer. I live in Southern California. I very much doubt itwas below 70 deg. F. I don't know what the exact makeup of the glueis, as I see no description of ingredients on the container. I was notthe one who said this was urea- formaldehyde glue as I don't knowthat it is. All I know is that this is a powder and it is made by Dapand it is called Weldwood. I have used URAC 185 in the past, andit is a good glue. My only objections to it is that it tends to give thickglue lines, and the working time is a little short. Darryl Hayashida from rfairfie@cisco.com Wed Sep 3 14:46:48 1997 MAA23266 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:46:15 - 0700 Subject: Straightening after glueing and binding... All, I seem to have difficulty in consistently getting my sections really straight after glueing and binding. I'm using the epoxy system mentionedinWayne's book, so I have lots of working time. I roll the sections after binding, and almost always end up with a blankwitheither a curve in it, or a wobble somewhere, that I can't get out byfollowingthe directions in the book. Is there some trick that you guys use? Someothertechnique that you'd be willing to share with a neophyte builder? So far,I'vebuilt six rods this year, and while each one gets a bit better than it's predecessor, they all have bends of one sort or another. The rollingtechniquethat I use is to start with my hands together at the center of a section androll the section back and forth moving my hands towards the ends. Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. BTW, the last rod I built was a Dickerson 8013. It casts beautifully! Iwanteda rod with a reasonable fast action, and this is it. I do a lot of fishingwhere I need to cast 50+ feet, and this rod does it very nicely without alotof effort (I can't get an entire line in the air like some of you guys!). Thanks,Roger from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Sep 3 15:06:16 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Tests of Glues In a message dated 9/3/97 7:16:56 PM, you wrote: Darryl- Whoever told you that this is a formaldehyde glue is correct. Iusedto use the stuff for furniture, and even for some applications on smallboats. It was a good glue and would probably be fine for rodmaking, but youare playing Russian Roulette with shelf life. It used to be sold in metaltins, and you could rely on getting some time. The plastic packaging doesnotseal well and once the stuff is exposed to humidity it's all done. If it'sfresh, it mixes to a smooth dark consistency, if it's not it stays lightcolored and particles do not dissolve. The last two containers I boughtwerebad when I bought them. I'll bet yours was too.Too bad, it used to be a goodproduct, and was easily available from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Sep 3 15:36:39 1997 Subject: Re: Tests of Glues TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/3/97 7:16:56 PM, you wrote: and it is called Weldwood. >> Darryl- Whoever told you that this is a formaldehyde glue is correct. Iusedto use the stuff for furniture, and even for some applications on smallboats. It was a good glue and would probably be fine for rodmaking, butyouare playing Russian Roulette with shelf life. It used to be sold in metaltins, and you could rely on getting some time. The plastic packaging doesnotseal well and once the stuff is exposed to humidity it's all done. If it'sfresh, it mixes to a smooth dark consistency, if it's not it stays lightcolored and particles do not dissolve. The last two containers I boughtwerebad when I bought them. I'll bet yours was too.Too bad, it used to be agoodproduct, and was easily availableThe product is still available and dated. Get it from Custom-PakAdhesives. from them it will work. Don't buy it from hardware stores.John Zimny from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Wed Sep 3 16:59:15 1997 recipients from penr0295@uidaho.edu Wed Sep 3 18:50:06 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id QAA08641 for ; doing -bs Subject: Seattle Cane Source Fellow Oregonian Robert Clarke and I are considering splitting a bundle ofcane from Seattle Bamboo Hardwood when the shipment arrives fromChina atthe end of this month. As neither of us are experienced at selecting canewe are interested in hearing a verdict on its quality from others who havehad the opportunity to inspect it firsthand. When I first began looking for cane (without success) several weeks ago,I contacted a Mr. Cao Qungen from the Subtropical Forestry Institute inChina, whose name was provided by the American Bamboo Society. I askedifhe knew of any sources of Tonkin in this country. His reply, receivedweeks later, relates to this Seattle cane shipment, and I have repostedhis letter to me below: Dear Thomas Penrose,Very sorry for this delaying reply to your massage as above, because Ijust returned from a long time trip to your country and then to SouthernChina for a shipment of your requested Tonkin pole to your country. Acontainer of your interested good quality pole will be available in youmarket in the next month. Youy can contact Mr. Andy Royer from BambooHardwood Inc.in Seattle with tel. 206 463 2649 . If you have any otherrequest please let me know. I am interested to contact Mr. CharlesDemarest to exchange some information with him. Could you help me tofind his tel. Fax number and let me know? With best regards,Cao Qungen Thomas PenroseBend, OR from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Sep 3 20:47:17 1997 Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? Martin, I used stainless steel for reel seat components when I firststartedout.The stainless worked out just fine. It will match the stainless ok. Nickelsilver has aslight gold cast to it,but it is a very close match. It should work justfine. Dave LeClair from santiago@ricochet.net Wed Sep 3 20:54:13 1997 UAA13933 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:54:42 - Subject: Re: Seattle Cane Source Thomas Penrose wrote: Fellow Oregonian Robert Clarke and I are considering splitting a bundleofcane from Seattle Bamboo Hardwood when the shipment arrives fromChina atthe end of this month. As neither of us are experienced at selecting canewe are interested in hearing a verdict on its quality from others whohavehad the opportunity to inspect it firsthand. When I first began looking for cane (without success) several weeks ago,I contacted a Mr. Cao Qungen from the Subtropical Forestry Institute inChina, whose name was provided by the American Bamboo Society. Iasked ifhe knew of any sources of Tonkin in this country. His reply, receivedweeks later, relates to this Seattle cane shipment, and I have repostedhis letter to me below: Dear Thomas Penrose,Very sorry for this delaying reply to your massage as above, because Ijust returned from a long time trip to your country and then to SouthernChina for a shipment of your requested Tonkin pole to your country. Acontainer of your interested good quality pole will be available in youmarket in the next month. Youy can contact Mr. Andy Royer from BambooHardwood Inc.in Seattle with tel. 206 463 2649 . If you have any otherrequest please let me know. I am interested to contact Mr. CharlesDemarest to exchange some information with him. Could you help me tofind his tel. Fax number and let me know? With best regards,Cao Qungen Thomas PenroseBend, OR daryll whitehead, a master rodmaker from the northwest will be checkingout the shipment. my guess is that he can give a detailed report on thequality of the cane. i personally saw a few sample pieces and was very impressed and lookforward to my new supply of cane. leo from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Sep 3 21:01:14 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,3 Sep 1997 22:01:10 EDT Subject: Catskills I am planning on attending the get together this month. I am looking verymuch forward to meeting some of the people I have spoken with so longoverthis listserv. However, I am without a room. I can find a place 20 or sominutes away, but I would like to be at the Roscoe motel if at allpossable. A floor would be just fine and I would be more than happy tomake your stay cheaper if you know of any room. Thanks all...till thisweekend. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Sep 3 23:24:55 1997 Subject: Re: stainless in place of nickel silver? anyone looking for the thomas register -try http://www.thomasregister.com/index.html Dave LeClair from freedmar@pilot.msu.edu Thu Sep 4 07:10:02 1997 Subject: Re: Straightening after glueing and binding... "Roger Fairfield" at Sep 3, 97 12:46:15 pm Roger,Gluing a straight blank is not easy. SO don't get down on yourself. Onething you might have a look at is the tension on the binder. There is apassage in Wayne's book in which he obliquely says that Garrison- stylebindersthat don't work well weren't built well. I take this to mean that theytwistthe sections. I had to adjust the tension on my garrison-style binder quiteabit until I got twist-free sections. REgarding bends: I've found the hand-rolling technique pretty good.Another (ie additional) method is to sight down the section, pinching itbetween offset thumb and forefinger and running these two fingers downthesection while putting pressure on the thumb to work, say, a left bend backtothe right with the left hand. You can control the correction by fingerpressure, distance between fingers, and twist in the wrist. Then roll thesection on the table to equalize the stresses. Because the glue is stillwet,the individual splines slide against one another nicely, but they do needmoderate pressure. hope that helps some, . --Mark Freedfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu All, I seem to have difficulty in consistently getting my sectionsreallystraight after glueing and binding. I'm using the epoxy system mentionedinWayne's book, so I have lots of working time. I roll the sections after binding, and almost always end up with a blankwitheither a curve in it, or a wobble somewhere, that I can't get out byfollowing the directions in the book. Is there some trick that you guys use? Someothertechnique that you'd be willing to share with a neophyte builder? So far,I'vebuilt six rods this year, and while each one gets a bit better than it'spredecessor, they all have bends of one sort or another. The rollingtechniquethat I use is to start with my hands together at the center of a sectionandroll the section back and forth moving my hands towards the ends.Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. BTW, the last rod I built was a Dickerson 8013. It casts beautifully! Iwanteda rod with a reasonable fast action, and this is it. I do a lot of fishingwhere I need to cast 50+ feet, and this rod does it very nicely without alotof effort (I can't get an entire line in the air like some of you guys!). Thanks,Roger --Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar@pilot.msu.edu from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Sep 4 08:32:13 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) (5.0.1458.49) Subject:=?DIN_66003?Q?RE=3A_Straightening_after_gluing_and_binding=2E=2E?==?DIN_66003?Q?=2E?= In the tips,tools, and FAQ's section in jerry fosters page"//home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm" is a article telling how to tune agarrison binder that should solve most of the bent pole problem. I havea milward binder and it works far superior to the garrison type. ----------From: Mark M Freed?SMTP:freedmar?pilot.msu.edu?Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 5:09 AM Subject: Re: Straightening after glueing and binding... Roger,Gluing a straight blank is not easy. SO don't get down onyourself. Onething you might have a look at is the tension on the binder. There isapassage in Wayne's book in which he obliquely says thatGarrison-style bindersthat don't work well weren't built well. I take this to mean thatthey twistthe sections. I had to adjust the tension on my garrison-style binderquite abit until I got twist-free sections. REgarding bends: I've found the hand-rolling technique prettygood.Another (ie additional) method is to sight down the section, pinchingitbetween offset thumb and forefinger and running these two fingers downthe> section while putting pressure on the thumb to work, say, a leftbendback tothe right with the left hand. You can control the correction byfingerpressure, distance between fingers, and twist in the wrist. Then rollthesection on the table to equalize the stresses. Because the glue isstill wet,the individual splines slide against one another nicely, but they doneedmoderate pressure. hope that helps some, . --Mark Freedfreedmar?pilot.msu.edu All, I seem to have difficulty in consistently getting mysections reallystraight after glueing and binding. I'm using the epoxy systemmentioned inWayne's book, so I have lots of working time. I roll the sections after binding, and almost always end up with ablank witheither a curve in it, or a wobble somewhere, that I can't get out byfollowing the directions in the book. Is there some trick that you guys use?Some othertechnique that you'd be willing to share with a neophyte builder?So far, I'vebuilt six rods this year, and while each one gets a bit better thanit'spredecessor, they all have bends of one sort or another. Therolling techniquethat I use is to start with my hands together at the center of asection androll the section back and forth moving my hands towards the ends.Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. BTW, the last rod I built was a Dickerson 8013. It castsbeautifully! I wanteda rod with a reasonable fast action, and this is it. I do a lot offishingwhere I need to cast 50+ feet, and this rod does it very nicelywithout a lotof effort (I can't get an entire line in the air like some of youguys!). Thanks,Roger --Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan Universityfreedmar?pilot.msu.edu from santiago@ricochet.net Thu Sep 4 09:12:52 1997 JAA19884 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:12:56 - Subject: a note from andy royer about bamboo shipment Greetings. My name is Andy Royer, I recently spent five weeksin southern China selecting bamboo to be used for building bamboo flyrods. Irealize that most users of this material do not know who I am or why I am involved inthis business so I will try to explain who I am and what I am doing. manager for Bamboo Hardwoods Inc., a Seattle based company which owns and operatesa factory in southern Vietnam. We produce laminated bamboo products suchas flooring as well as other bamboo products. Bamboo Hardwoods is also an importer of poles from both Vietnam and China. The importation of poles preceded the factory in Vietnam, we have imported poles for over sevenyears, selling wholesale to nurseries. In January of 1996, my father told me that he had a friend whobuilt bamboo flyrods and was looking for a source of material. I met with DaryllWhitehead and he told me what was needed. Two-inch by twelve foot tonkin cane didnot comprise a large percentage of our business but it was something I wasfamiliar with. After confirming that we were speaking of the same species, I toldDaryll that we could supply the material. I was told that the main problempertaining to this bamboo was not the available supply but the quality of theavailable supply. I drove out to a nursery which carried some of the 12'x2"bamboo we supplied. They were selling it for about $6/pole wholesale but thequality was insufficient for flyrod building. I told Daryll that I would see what Icould do to improve upon the quality of our poles. The main problem withthe poles coming into this country seemed to be the ever present slash marks onthe bottom third of the pole. In August of `96 I spoke with our supplier inHong Kong and explained what I needed- 12' x 50-60mm poles which wereyellowin colour and free of burn marks and slash marks. I was informed that theslash marks were prevalent in this bamboo and it would be hard to buy poleswithout the marks. I kept pressing and finally came to an agreement that only asmall percentage of the poles would have slash marks. When the poles finallyarrived in January of `97, we discovered that there were slash marks onapproximately 98% of the material. Green colour and burn marks were also a problem. Iwas painfully aware that this was low quality bamboo. Several people in the Seattle area worked with the material andsaid there was some redeeming quality, every pole had around six feet of usablematerial. I was and still am embarrassed to have sold such low quality material, Isold it at my cost. I spoke with every person, perhaps 20 people across thecountry, whom I sold the bamboo to and in every single case the buyer stated thatI had made them a fair deal. Yes, there were problems with the bamboo but itwas usable to those who bought it. This endeavor served as quite an education in two respects. Ilearned about the need and the market for high quality tonkin cane. I also learnedthat if I wanted to obtain high quality poles, I would have to work much harderand probably even have to travel to China. I spent several monthscommunicating with five different potential suppliers. I finally decided to work withDr. Cao Qungen who not only invited me to a collection site in Guangzhou,China, where much of the bamboo is loaded into containers and prepared forshipping, but to live and work at the factory in Huaiji county where the bamboo is processed. Mr. Cao is a botanist who hold the equivalent of a Ph.D.in bamboo! I left my wife and 11 month old daughter on July 7 for a 15 day journey to China to select the poles which had been collected for me.A few days after surrounding myself with towering bamboos, Iasked myself, why don't other suppliers come here to pick out their bamboo? About tendays into the trip, I asked myself, what the hell am I doing here? Everything wasgoing poorly. Less than half of the 6000 poles which had been collected were acceptable, the only break the rains gave us would be to change fromtorrential downpours to heavy showers and I could not understand the system inwhich the poles were processed. In the hills, the bamboo is cut, stripped of its branches and thrown down the hillside to a river or road from where theyare transported to the factory where I worked. Here the poles wereunloaded, cut (to about thirteen feet), cleaned, dried, cut again (to twelve feet) and packaged. It sounds and should be a simple enough process but theworkers found many means to aggravate the process. Every pole should be handledabout seven or eight times before it is packaged, these poles are handled overtwenty times! I counted the steps they took and simply could not understandwhy each pole was moved around so often by so many people but it has something todo with working in a communist country and keeping the five dollar a dayworkers busy. I tried almost every day to implement some steps which wouldimprove our efficiency. Mr Cao laughed when I mentioned these changes. "YouAmericans," he said, "you really like efficiency."I had to extend my stay until the rains would let up for longenough to allow us to collect and process more poles. All the while, I could work onselecting or grading the poles. I went to China with the intention of collectinga full 40 foot container with perfect quality cane, I had no intentions onbuying what I soon regarded as "B" grade poles. Unfortunately, I discovered that Iwould be forced to spend months in China if I were to fill my container withonly what was now "A" grade poles. I worked behind the saw as the poles were cut to twelve feet. Ispent several days learning how to read the bamboo, i.e. how a mark or colour on theoutside of the pole related to the quality of the fibre directly beneath theskin. Some spots are very light water damage and are not apparent on thefibres. Some marks are the marks of bamboo which is too old to be considereduseful, some represent heavy water damage which would result in a moldyinterior. Other poles I would not accept if they were too green, gray or even tooyellow in a few cases. Bug infestations, scratch marks resulting from a rough transportation and poles under 50mm were also not acceptable as "A"poles. Slash marks were not much of a problem because they had sorted out theslash marked poles before I arrived. As I selected the poles, less then 10%of them were slash marked. I accepted a few of them if the mark was low on thepole or very small. We spoke a lot about the slash marks while I was in China. Overten years ago, the government of China turned over control of about 60% of thetonkin bamboo to individual families or villages. These farmers then, wouldmark their poles as they are growing just as American ranchers brand cattle. It is done so that the product is marked as "property of..." Farmer A wantsto be sure that farmer B does not cut and sell his bamboo so he marks it"property of farmer A." Any mark less substantial than a deep slash mark is probablyto easy for a thief to circumvent. I asked if the marks could be made onthe bottom ten inches of the poles and apparently, some farmers agreed. Foran extra dime or whatever, they would mark the poles at the bottom. Thatwas good to hear but I will not hold my breath. What they are doing they havebeen doing for years and, I am asking the person who slashes a couplethousand poles a day (yes, even in the dense forests, almost all the poles I saw hadslash marks) to stop making the marks at eye level but to bend down to make amark below their knees. I think that now and forever, the vast majority oftonkin coming from China will have these marks.I now have approximately 3100 "A" poles and 900 "B" poles on thewater, they are due in Seattle on September 18, they should take about one week toclear customs. After they are unloaded in a warehouse, Daryll will go to the warehouse to inspect several bundles at random and I will ask that hepost his thoughts on the listserver. The initial two thousand "A" poles have ascribble at the bottom or top which may or may not resemble my initials,(itbecame more of a scribble after a couple hundred poles). The rest of the "A" poleswere prepared after I left China. I was at the factory while the poles werecut cleaned and drying but within one day of being ready for selection, therains came again. I had been away from my wife and one-year old baby for fiveweeks and there are no weather reports for Huaiji county so we had no idea howlong the rains would last. I left, entrusting the selection of the lastpoles to the Chinese whom I worked to educate on how to do such a job. I willnot know the quality of these poles until I see them here but before the rainscame, they were, by far, the highest quality poles I had seen. For example,while I was in China, I selected several poles which I considered perfectquality (in terms of appearance). I found 10 poles out of about 6000 which met my qualifications (.16%). from the last thousand poles, 40 "perfect" poleswere selected (4%), a large increase.I numbered the bundles to assist me in tracking each bundle tothe buyers. I numbered the bundles after the poles were wrapped so I am unable todetect from any number if the poles in that bundle are higher quality than anyother. Each bundle contains only ten poles. We chose ten poles per bundle insteadof twenty because a bundle with ten poles can easily be moved by oneperson. I also have 600 poles on this container which are 7' x 2". I did this tofill the container: a 40 foot container is about 39 feet in interior length,with three rows of 12 foot poles, we still have close to three feet at theend of the container. I decided to sort through all the poles with slash markswhich were not originally to be sold to me and cut them to the longest length possible to fit sideways in the container, seven feet. These poles are"A" quality poles. Apparently, there is some concern that my efforts are notbeneficial to the world of bamboo rod builders. Some people seem to believe that what Iam doing is adversely effecting the overall quality of bamboo available on themarket. I simply do not understand this sentiment. I spoke with dozens ofChinese who export the tonkin to the US and I told them that what they were sendingus is crap. I know that the suppliers of my material lost money on this firstorder because never before had they bought bamboo from farmers and not beenable to sell it to their customer. I am working very hard to improve thestandard of quality of material which they export. The Chinese will have to workharder and we will have to pay more but I believe that if pressure is added,higher quality tonkin will result. It will be a slow process, change does notcome quickly to this area, many people in the town in which I stayed hadnever seen a camera or a foreigner. Within a couple of years I believe that myefforts will prove beneficial to all involved.I was asked to import good quality tonkin because there was notenough high quality cane available in the country. I am now responding to thatrequest. I am not a fly fisherman, though my wife, who is working to become aguide, is trying to get me in the water, my background is on the bamboo side ofthings. I hold an excellent working knowledge of bamboo. I have spent a fairamount of time with Daryll and other builders in the Seattle area to learn all Ican about the specific needs of flyrod builders. Here I will ask for thehelp of all who purchase bamboo from me- let me know your thoughts, good andbad. I need to hear what people think of the quality so I know what to look forwhen I select my next order of bamboo. As long as I am importing this materialI will try to improve the quality of what I am selling. I will import for aslong as you the buyers would like me to.There is not so much 2" bamboo to supply everyone with reallyhigh quality stuff at this time. This is the fault of many of the farmers in China. Too many of them simply are not managing their crops. Much of the bamboo Isaw was unhealthy. A healthy grove of tonkin cane should be dense and lush with perhaps 40-60% of the poles reaching two inches in diameter. I sawdozens of mature groves of a hundred acres or so which looked like newly plantedbamboo; sickly culms of 3/4" bamboo no more than 15 feet in height. I only sawtwo areas which I considered to be in excellent health. Here there was afeel similar to what I imagine walking in a huge rain forest feels like. The bamboos soared overhead and grew impressively straight, a testament toits strength; what other material grows in nature that at two inches bythirty feet stands perfectly erect? A thick dampness pervaded the air and theground teamed with life, thousands of plants and animals living in a symbiotic relationship with the bamboo. It is from these areas that we see thebest bamboo. I am quite certain that out of the three hundred bundles I sell,several will raise questions, "is this what he calls "A" quality?" or "why did he puthis initials on this piece?" Please remember, I sat surrounded by thousandsof poles. I inspected each pole individually, some in hundred degree, 95% humidity some as the sun was declining over the hills. I am notguaranteeing that all "A" poles are perfect. I found something in each "A" polewhich I considered high quality. Some people will disagree with my choices butI believe that overall, these poles are of higher quality than what hasbeen available in this country in several years. I will be in Oregon from the 5th until the 11th of September. After that date, please feel free to contact me directly. I apologize to those ofyou who tried to phone or email me in the past two months, here is the correct information: Andy RoyerPO Box 2422Vashon, WA 98070(206) 463-3771(206) 463-3012 fxandyr@bamboohw.com Thank you. from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu Sep 4 10:10:56 1997 QAA18432 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:16:15+0100 Subject: Re: missing mail My rodmakers connection has been down for a couple of days, and I'm notcertain whether my outgoings have been reaching beyond my computer'smodem. So - to reiterate: Lewis asked - A customer does NOT want me to replace the cork handles on his flyrod and instead wants me to "refinish" them. I made him understand that refinishing them would require somesanding, with the resulting loss of some cork. The blank is in goodshape, the thread somewhat faded on all guides - frayed on one. He estimates the rod to be 20+ years old, so I understand his desireto want to maintain the rod in as a original state as possible, butrepairing the cork has me stumped. A portion of the butt grip ispitted and eroded to a depth of 3/16 or so. The rest of the cork isok. My first instinct is to use commercially available cork filler(adhesive mixed with cork dust). My question to all of you is: Isthere a more "original or traditional" repair technique to restore thecork? Any tips on glues/adhesives, cork dust, etc will be greatlyappreciated. Lewis CORK FILLERS/ TURNER CHUCKS/ NICKEL SILVER If there were any useful replies to this mailing, I missed them. This is amuch under-valued part of finishing a handle. The difference that highgradefilling and sanding makes to the appearance and use of a rod is enormous.The old makers used a pretty coarse sanded finish, I know. Frankly, I don'tgive a good tinker's cuss what the old makers did, unless I'm restoring fororiginality, so I finish to an extremely fine surface by filling withChemical Wood, then sanding underwater with a tube of 1000 grade wet-n-dry. I've tried white glue and cork dust, and it's sort of OK. Still, I'd like touse something woodier than Chemical Wood, and would welcome ideas. I'verecently finished a handle with fine cork dust/ shellac filler. It looksgood, but I'm not sure how it will hold up to hard use. Any thoughts? ------------------I recently asked about rod turner chucks. Thank's for the varioussuggestions. I eventually went with the 280.904 self-centering chuckfromJanns. It's absolutely first class. Highly recommended. ------------------- My rod-fitting makers are really struggling to find sources of nickelsilvertubing, especially in larger sizes (+ - .5"). Can anyone, anywhere offerinformation on a source of tube in reasonably small quantities? John Cooper (England) from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Sep 4 12:07:45 1997 Subject: Re: very strange Terry,I,too unsubscribed for the summer and am resubscribed as of Augustwithoutany action on my part-imagine my surprise when I returned Sept 3 to find447pieces of e-mail! Ain't computers grand ?I'm glad you're back.Hank. from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 4 13:31:39 1997 Subject: Low Cost Rod Puller I was again playing around with items most of us should already have laying around and common hardware items, and came up with a way to usea rod turning motor to pull rod sections from adip tube at 2.5 inches a minute. The rod turning motor I have turns at 6 rpm. I useda scrap piece of rod ( a 1/4 dowel will work too), andfixed the other end by punching a hole in a cardboardbox at the right height. I bought two little pulleys I foundat the hardware store, the kind that look like minaturesingle wheel block and tackle. This is how to set it up. Afix a hook to the ceiling above your dip tube. Hang one pulley from the hook on the ceiling. The other pulley is the traveling block, and your rod section is tied to it (or hooked, I used a fishing snap swivel). String (or 10 lb monofilament as I used) is tied to the ceiling hook, brought down to and threaded through the lower (traveling)pulley, brought up to and threaded through the hanging pulley,and back down to the dowel that will be turned by your rodturning motor. The string is wrapped around the dowel, whichis turning at 6 rpm, but a double length of string has to betaken up to raise the rod section. 2.5 inches a minute producesno drips with the viscosity of varnish that I use. You can combine this rod puller with the dust proof tube idea I came up with a little while ago just by drilling another hole in thetop cap to thread the string through ( the top pulley has to beoutside - above - the top tube). section, through the top pulley and down to the dowel, pullsthe rod section at 5 inches a minute. If you wanted to pullthe rod slower than 2.5 inches a minute, then another coupleof pulleys and another run of the string should produce aboutan inch a minute. Sir Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 4 15:50:04 1997 (205.236.249.150) Subject: Is it worth it? Hi,just been reading the very interesting posting by Andy Royer. I amhonestly thinking it all a waste of time when a guy has to go halfwayround the world with a big stick when perhaps what we should be doing iscalling up Mr Sage. I read on this list about cork being hard to get, as with good nicklesilver ferrules and unmarked bamboo. It seems that the chasing around making the rods. I guess I must devote more of my efforts to developing my idea of a twoweek composting diaper for busy geriatric care givers. I am sure thre ismore money in it! from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Sep 4 16:47:45 1997 with ESMTP id QAA09113 for ; Thu, 4 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id IJVWBHAP; Thu,4 Sep 1997 16:47:07 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: Is it worth it? Good idea, Terry. But I would also consider getting into designing fishing vests. Everytime Ipick up a high-dollar FF supply company catalog, they've got a "totallynew,redesigned for 199x, technical features vest" that is in all new colors andcosts over a hundred bucks! The old marketing adage "charge what themarketwill bear" definitely applies to fly fishing more than any other industry Icanthink of. Isn't it great, though, that what the modern rodmaker does is somethingthat isvirtually unaffected by technology, marketing, style, and whim. Throughall thehurdles and tribulations of becoming a rodmaker and practicing the art,one canonlybe humbled by the past and feel confident about fostering a goodfuture forthe lovely bamboo art. Congratulations everyone-- for being Rodmakers. Don DeLoach ------------------Original text Hi,just been reading the very interesting posting by Andy Royer. I amhonestly thinking it all a waste of time when a guy has to go halfwayround the world with a big stick when perhaps what we should be doing iscalling up Mr Sage. I read on this list about cork being hard to get, as with good nicklesilver ferrules and unmarked bamboo. It seems that the chasing around making the rods. I guess I must devote more of my efforts to developing my idea of a twoweek composting diaper for busy geriatric care givers. I am sure thre ismore money in it! from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Thu Sep 4 17:00:59 1997 mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 04 Sep 1997 18:01:00 -0500 Subject: Is it worth it? -Reply Yes it is worth it!!!! The search for perfection is an ongoing process. Some people will give up and accept a compormise while others willcontinue to pursue the ultimate goal. This sceneario is played out daily inbusinesses around the world and those that compromise the least areusually at the top of the heap(and I don't mean the compost heap that youare looking into). I may only build one rod a year, but that rod embodiesthe best materials and workmanship that I can produce. If I sell it I knowthat that was my best and so does the buyer. I don't stay up nightswondering if because I saved a buck somewhere there will be a problemlater. I have peace of mind as a result of my searching and waiting. Just my 2 cents, Gary from rclarke@eou.edu Thu Sep 4 17:38:44 1997 Subject: Re: Is it worth it? I am not sure if it is worth it or not, but it appears to me that Andy hasmade a genuine effort to bring some quality cane into the US, at a timewhen it is difficult to supply. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Terence Ackland Subject: Is it worth it?Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 1:48 PM Hi,just been reading the very interesting posting by Andy Royer. I amhonestly thinking it all a waste of time when a guy has to go halfwayround the world with a big stick when perhaps what we should be doingiscalling up Mr Sage. I read on this list about cork being hard to get, as with good nicklesilver ferrules and unmarked bamboo. It seems that the chasing around making the rods. I guess I must devote more of my efforts to developing my idea of a twoweek composting diaper for busy geriatric care givers. I am sure thre ismore money in it! from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 4 18:20:21 1997 (205.236.248.195) Subject: Re: Is it worth it? -Reply Gary Marquardt wrote: Yes it is worth it!!!! The search for perfection is an ongoingprocess.Some people will give up and accept a compormise while others willcontinue to pursue the ultimate goal. This sceneario is played outdaily inbusinesses around the world and those that compromise the least areusually at the top of the heap(and I don't mean the compost heap thatyouare looking into). I may only build one rod a year, but that rodembodiesthe best materials and workmanship that I can produce. If I sell it Iknowthat that was my best and so does the buyer. I don't stay up nightswondering if because I saved a buck somewhere there will be a problemlater. I have peace of mind as a result of my searching and waiting. Just my 2 cents, Gary Gary,we are talking about fishing poles here, right?Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 4 18:56:10 1997 (205.236.248.126) Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Robert Clarke wrote: I am not sure if it is worth it or not, but it appears to me that Andyhasmade a genuine effort to bring some quality cane into the US, at atimewhen it is difficult to supply. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ---------- Robert,I fully understand what Andy is trying to do, but does he undestand thatthe market for Tonkin cane is so small? Almost all of the rodmakers outthere are hand planers and build in their spare time. It is also uneccessary to have a culm that is completely flawlessbecause there are always strips left over. As long as we can get acouple of two tip rods from a culm, which I must admit I could not get from half of the last batch I got from Demarest. We can split around theodd cut marks and holes like we always have done, it is no big deal, aslong as we have enough left over for rods. You can call me cynical, but do I detect just a little salesmanshipin Andys jungle adventure? from frankc@webspan.net Thu Sep 4 19:17:43 1997 Subject: MILWARD BINDER JUST READ A NOTE REFERRING TO A "MILWARD BINDER" S WORKING BETTERTHANTHE ONE DESCRIBED IN GARRISONS BOOK. CAN SOMEONE LET US NEWCOMERSWHERETO GET SOME INFO ON THIS TOOL? from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Sep 4 19:29:42 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu,4 Sep 1997 20:29:39 EDT Subject: Re: Is it worth it? -Reply This may come from me being a business student but I have to play thedevil's advocate for a minute or two. There was a cost involved for himto go "half way around the world." While I would love to have perfectcane come my way, even at a higher cost. But I would ask, how much wasthat trip worth, and how much would that translate to the consumer inthislimited market? I must admit as a beginner, with only one rod under mybelt, I have yet to order from Demerest. The cost is a lot for a meagercollege student, and the thought of getting a significant amount of"trash" is nerve wrecking. (I do not mean trash literally) If I am goingto spend money on building a rod, I would hope it would be the best I canmake it...not the best I can make it on less than the best material. Likewise, just my .02$ Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from rclarke@eou.edu Thu Sep 4 19:32:26 1997 Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Terry, You are right that the market has got to be extremely small. I think Andyhas other uses for the bamboo, and this is a sideline for him. I appreciate the possibility for a source of cane. I don't want to slightDemerest or Tuxedo. I just want to get started. I enjoy your sometimes cynical comments. I think buyer beware is alwaysagood motto. Being in an office all day, it might be nice to romp through the jungleevery now and then. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Terence Ackland Subject: Re: Is it worth it?Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 4:55 PM ---------- Robert,I fully understand what Andy is trying to do, but does he undestand thatthe market for Tonkin cane is so small? Almost all of the rodmakers outthere are hand planers and build in their spare time. It is also uneccessary to have a culm that is completely flawlessbecause there are always strips left over. As long as we can get acouple of two tip rods from a culm, which I must admit I could not get from half of the last batch I got from Demarest. We can split around theodd cut marks and holes like we always have done, it is no big deal, aslong as we have enough left over for rods. You can call me cynical, but do I detect just a little salesmanshipin Andys jungle adventure? from rclarke@eou.edu Thu Sep 4 19:40:59 1997 Subject: Re: MILWARD BINDER Check out the tips, FAQ's and techniquies on the Rodmakers Pagehttp://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tips.html It has a section on the Milward BinderRobert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Frank Caruso Subject: MILWARD BINDERDate: Thursday, September 04, 1997 5:02 PM JUST READ A NOTE REFERRING TO A "MILWARD BINDER" S WORKINGBETTER THANTHE ONE DESCRIBED IN GARRISONS BOOK. CAN SOMEONE LET USNEWCOMERS WHERETO GET SOME INFO ON THIS TOOL? from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Thu Sep 4 20:49:43 1997 mailfep2-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Is it worth it? type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Reading Andy's posting reminded me of what it felt like being in thesteamy jungles of South East Asia  (circa 1964). Unless you've beenthere it's almost useless to explain. I enjoyed the interlude hisposting brought and the memories that cameback to me. I applaud Andy Cane. We all know that we can split around the flaws. We all know thatthe culm doesn't have to be 'perfect 'to build a good rod. But I can'tfault his attempt to improve the quality of what we're asked to workwith. Is he trying to sell some of it? I hope so! I can't fault him this in a humble attempt to answer your sarcasm  'Is it worth it?Obviously, it is 'worth it' to those who spend time to read thepostings of this listservsor there are many other things we could bedoing with our time. And for those of us who build, prehaps it is'worth it' to spend 60 hours of labor creating a fly rod that will be'worth it' for someone to purchase one day. We all know that lifecould be a lot simpler. But, I think we who build cane fly rods chooseto complicate it just enough to make it interesting. 'Is it worth it'?Only each of us as individuals can decide the answer to that. As faras I'm concerned, I say it is worh it. Joe Loverti / Loverti Cane Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Sep 4 21:04:33 1997 Subject: Re: MILWARD BINDER ----------From: Frank Caruso Subject: MILWARD BINDERDate: Thursday, September 04, 1997 5:02 PM JUST READ A NOTE REFERRING TO A "MILWARD BINDER" S WORKINGBETTER THANTHE ONE DESCRIBED IN GARRISONS BOOK. CAN SOMEONE LET USNEWCOMERS WHERETO GET SOME INFO ON THIS TOOL? It's in Best of the Planing Form, or phone Bob Milward at 604-985-0860. from jonrc@atlantic.net Thu Sep 4 21:28:36 1997 berlin.atlantic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26762 for; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:28:31 -0400 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10057 for; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:28:12 -0400 Subject: Re: MILWARD BINDER This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------188541F12422 Frank Caruso wrote: JUST READ A NOTE REFERRING TO A "MILWARD BINDER" S WORKINGBETTER THANTHE ONE DESCRIBED IN GARRISONS BOOK. CAN SOMEONE LET USNEWCOMERS WHERETO GET SOME INFO ON THIS TOOL?Frank, I use the Milward style binder with great results. I've attached a fewpictures that may help illustrate how it works.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 4 23:01:26 1997 ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: MILWARD BINDER I am in the process of accumulating parts to build a Milward binder. Forthose interested, most hardware strores carry a selection of thinwalledtelescoping trmpered brass tubes. These are one foot long and thesmallestjust slips into the next larger and so on. one tube is .63" which justfits over the 1/2" rigid copper tubing. Makes a great sleve bearing. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 10:28 PM 9/4/97 -0400, you wrote:Frank Caruso wrote: JUST READ A NOTE REFERRING TO A "MILWARD BINDER" S WORKINGBETTER THANTHE ONE DESCRIBED IN GARRISONS BOOK. CAN SOMEONE LET USNEWCOMERS WHERETO GET SOME INFO ON THIS TOOL?Frank, I use the Milward style binder with great results. I've attached a fewpictures that may help illustrate how it works.-- Casting for the fish that has been seen in one's mind time and timeagain. Casting for that magic moment, when everything comes together,the fly is taken and the familiar pulsating tension is felt running thelength of the cane rod allowing the angler just a glimpse of the mysterybelow the surface of the water. Jonathan ClarkeTwin Pines Rod Co.2800 4th St. No #112St. Petersburg, FL 33704 http://rio.atlantic.net/~jonrc Attachment Converted: "c:\internet\eudora\attach\WSSBinder2.jpg" Attachment Converted: "c:\internet\eudora\attach\WSSBinder1.jpg" Attachment Converted: "c:\internet\eudora\attach\WSSBound.jpg" from g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jp Fri Sep 5 02:46:00 1997 ESMTP id QAA11479 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 199716:45:00 +0900 (JST) Subject: Raising a little cane ... Friday, 5th September 1997 Dear RodMakers, Walton Powell, the old curmudgeon of Powell Rods ;-), sent me a fax the other day ... "I began building bamboo fly rods with my father E.C.Powell ... in 1922 at the age of 7 ...". WP's 'The Truth About Fly Rods' goes on to raise a few points I washoping would be discussed: (1) "The line manufacturers make lines size 1 -12 or more. Some rodbuilders, retailers, and writers would have you believe that you shouldhave a rod for each size line. This is nonsense. Any rod worth goingfishing with should handle perfectly at least 3 weights of lines, or itis not a good rod! [WP goes on to write that all of his 9' rods canhandle perfectly 5 weights of line]." (2) "I had a 9ft. 3 section rod that I had made an extra grip andreelseat that was ferruled to fit the male ferrule on the 2nd joint,which when joined would make a 6ft 10inch rod." [able to handle 3 weight line for little streams and a 7 weight line for an all around streamline]. (3) "Much ado is made about special tapers, mostly by people who do notknow what they are talking about. ... There are only 3 basic tapers -progressive, degressive, and uniform" [and what is most important,regardless of taper, is unity and continuity of action]. I could include more, but I am saving that for later when the dustsettles ... or maybe, to stoke the discussionary fire ;-) Cheers, Christian Home OfficeMr. Christian ThalackerMansion Miyake #303 Otaru University of CommerceKita 16 Nishi 3 International Students CenterKita-ku 001 Sapporo Room 157Hokkaido - Japan Otaru - Hokkaido - Japan Email: g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jpYes, I am just a number from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 5 04:58:39 1997 Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:58:24 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Raising a little cane ... I'm certainly not a classic caster, in fact I'm a bit of a gorilla with a stick, and I'm about to confirm this with what I'm about to say but the comments about a rod handling different line weights (forget the differences between manufacturers) rings true to me.Let me say right off that I'm not saying different line weights are all hooey, but a rod does seem to be able to handle a few. Which line is best just seems to come down to the person using the rod. My first cane rod has had quite a bit of work with different weights.In all cases the line is a Hardys.The rod in question is a WC 8" #6. I like to use a #6, most find it's better with a #5 and I've used it to catch a species called Flathead which is an estury fish which is hard to describe apart form it takes flys, fights OK and tastes good. To catch these I normaly use a #8 WF with flies like Dalhburg Divers etc.The rod dosn't even look like breaking, and as long as you adjust the timeing of the cast, casts well, though I do admit the WF #8 is a bit beyond "optimal". I might just say here that I don't take any other cane rods salt water fishing.One last thing about this is that this rod has been repaired in the tip section 3 times (in three different places, once requiring a new section to be scarfed in place) due to breakages by people borrowing it Tony Dear RodMakers, Walton Powell, the old curmudgeon of Powell Rods ;-), sent me a fax the other day ... "I began building bamboo fly rods with my father E.C.Powell ... in 1922 at the age of 7 ...". WP's 'The Truth About Fly Rods' goes on to raise a few points I washoping would be discussed: (1) "The line manufacturers make lines size 1 -12 or more. Some rodbuilders, retailers, and writers would have you believe that you shouldhave a rod for each size line. This is nonsense. Any rod worth goingfishing with should handle perfectly at least 3 weights of lines, or itis not a good rod! [WP goes on to write that all of his 9' rods canhandle perS&Rfectly 5 weights of line]." /********************* SNIP ***************************/ I could include more, but I am saving that for later when the dustsettles ... or maybe, to stoke the discussionary fire ;-) Cheers, Christian /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 5 08:29:04 1997 Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:28:55 +0800 (WST) Subject: Colour preserver Here's an old chestnut.I've just tried using shellac as a colour preserver with silk and a guide and it seems to work great. It makes me wonder if there is a basic problem with it that I don't see.Has anybody used shellac as a colour preserver with good or otherwise results? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Sep 5 08:32:37 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Is it worth it? I talked to Andy Royer last night and the thought of "a littlesalesmanship" is so far removed from the truth that it's ridiculous andborders on ludicrist. Here's a guy trying to do us rod makers a favor,he not only doesn"t make rods I'm not sure that he even fishes, by goingover to china and hand selecting us a good load of cane and he getshammered for it. If he was in it for the money he certainly wouldn'tpick bamboo rod makers for a market to explore, we're not exactlygigantic, if you figure in the cost of him going over there and staying only hope is that those of you who do find what he did as ridiculouswont buy any of his cane leaving all that more for the rest of us whoappreciate it. Patrick ----------From: Terence Ackland[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Robert Clarke wrote: I am not sure if it is worth it or not, but it appears to me thatAndyhasmade a genuine effort to bring some quality cane into the US, at atimewhen it is difficult to supply. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ---------- Robert,I fully understand what Andy is trying to do, but does he undestandthatthe market for Tonkin cane is so small? Almost all of the rodmakersoutthere are hand planers and build in their spare time. It is also uneccessary to have a culm that is completely flawlessbecause there are always strips left over. As long as we can get acouple of two tip rods from a culm, which I must admit I could not get from half of the last batch I got from Demarest. We can split aroundtheodd cut marks and holes like we always have done, it is no big deal,aslong as we have enough left over for rods. You can call me cynical, but do I detect just a little salesmanshipin Andys jungle adventure? from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Fri Sep 5 09:07:11 1997 PAA14636 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:12:45+0100 Subject: Seeking a book I'm looking for a hardback version of David DUNCAN'S The River WHY.Also The Idyll of The Split Bamboo. Parker Can anyone help? John Cooper (England) from santiago@ricochet.net Fri Sep 5 10:43:56 1997 KAA02447 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:44:24 - Subject: Re: Is it worth it? you who believe it "is worth it," count you blessings and enjoy thebeauty of high quality cane. leo from aa0rq@juno.com Fri Sep 5 11:27:22 1997 12:25:27 EDT Subject: Denver Bill is back Hello to all:Like Harry Middleton said" I can,t remember rather humpty dumptywas pushed or just fill off the wall?".Three rods were made in Febuary and march then the wife wanted aseperation and then a devorce with no reason...there went the roof overmy head, the rod making and ham radio to boot. So I moved all my stuffout to a little storage door that had a light bulb in it and worked thebest I could with hardly any space to move around and one light bulb. Itsucked but at least I could plan rods.Then one night i met a lady vacationing in denver at a dance clubwe danced all night and guess what we got along so well that I decided tovisit her in Stockton,Ca while on one of my loney fishing trips to thewestern slope of Colorado in search of cutthroat trout ...anyway i packedup camp and drove 22 hourse straihgt through. After some time there sheloved my rods and saw beauty in them and so she offered me a room , theden in her house to setup ROD MAKING and ham radio. So with a littlethinking I said yes because there are no condidtions attached. Anywayshe and I drove her bronco to Denver and brought back my canoe and hamgear along with the important stuff all my rod making stuff.My girl friend loves to fish and camp and we go as often as we canthe fishing for native trout is fun in the Sierra nevada range just 2-3hours away. I stopped by larie, Wyo on the way back from denver and metJerry Johnson who by the way is a super guy. If any of you drive throughWyo make it a point to eyeball Jerry. We talked rods and he met Trishand even cast my little 6"6" rod. I pushed the Frank ArmbrewsterPlanning forms and understand Jerry will be the proud owner of franksforms soon. All you beginners get the FORMS from Frank they are great Ilove mine.I will check out the cane at Tuxcedo Cane here in town in a coupleof days and let everyone know what I think of it. Does Demerest have any cane these days? He and his wife are suchgreat people. I also want to meet some of the west coast rodmakers so you guysplease E mail me at AA0RQ@juno.com.Signing off in a very happy way. Best regards to all Bill Hensel/Stockton, California from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Fri Sep 5 11:33:07 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) 04/19/90) Subject: RE: Is it worth it? I agree with Patrick and Robert.Well, what Andy is doing is business (not bad!), or someone here think he did that journey just for fun like us when building rod? (nice reading)Although I also think that rod making is a hobby and can be a business forsome of us. I've never bought from Demarest neither from Tuxedo yet.Deamarest honestly replyied me that at the time I asked them, they didn'thave any good cane to sell me. Probably I'm going to need some good cane from Demarest, Tuxedo, Andy or whoever could give me what I'm lookingfor.I think also that some of us don't make our decision just consideringprice, also the friendship, good talk, a shake of hands, there are so manyreason to do business ... then up to you.Finally, I just think he is trying to do his best, like all of us, and ifso he is going to get his "cup of tea".Sergio On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Coffey, Patrick W wrote: I talked to Andy Royer last night and the thought of "a littlesalesmanship" is so far removed from the truth that it's ridiculous andborders on ludicrist. Here's a guy trying to do us rod makers a favor,he not only doesn"t make rods I'm not sure that he even fishes, by goingover to china and hand selecting us a good load of cane and he getshammered for it. If he was in it for the money he certainly wouldn'tpick bamboo rod makers for a market to explore, we're not exactlygigantic, if you figure in the cost of him going over there and staying only hope is that those of you who do find what he did as ridiculouswont buy any of his cane leaving all that more for the rest of us whoappreciate it. Patrick ----------From: Terence Ackland[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Robert Clarke wrote: I am not sure if it is worth it or not, but it appears to me thatAndyhasmade a genuine effort to bring some quality cane into the US, at atimewhen it is difficult to supply. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ---------- Robert,I fully understand what Andy is trying to do, but does he undestandthatthe market for Tonkin cane is so small? Almost all of the rodmakersoutthere are hand planers and build in their spare time. It is also uneccessary to have a culm that is completely flawlessbecause there are always strips left over. As long as we can get acouple of two tip rods from a culm, which I must admit I could not get from half of the last batch I got from Demarest. We can split aroundtheodd cut marks and holes like we always have done, it is no big deal,aslong as we have enough left over for rods. You can call me cynical, but do I detect just a little salesmanshipin Andys jungle adventure? from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Sep 5 11:43:56 1997 8.6/SMI-SVR4) (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Is it worth it? Andy told me his prices for both single bundles (10 culms) to pricebreak on 5 or more and you will be pleasantly surprised. Patrick ----------From: Sergio HiroshiIshikawa[SMTP:ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu]Sent: Friday, September 05, 1997 9:32 AM Subject: RE: Is it worth it? I agree with Patrick and Robert.Well, what Andy is doing is business (not bad!), or someone here thinkhe did that journey just for fun like us when building rod? (nicereading)Although I also think that rod making is a hobby and can be a businessforsome of us. I've never bought from Demarest neither from Tuxedo yet.Deamarest honestly replyied me that at the time I asked them, theydidn'thave any good cane to sell me. Probably I'm going to need some goodcane from Demarest, Tuxedo, Andy or whoever could give me what I'm lookingfor.I think also that some of us don't make our decision just consideringprice, also the friendship, good talk, a shake of hands, there are somanyreason to do business ... then up to you.Finally, I just think he is trying to do his best, like all of us, andifso he is going to get his "cup of tea".Sergio On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Coffey, Patrick W wrote: I talked to Andy Royer last night and the thought of "a littlesalesmanship" is so far removed from the truth that it's ridiculousandborders on ludicrist. Here's a guy trying to do us rod makers afavor,he not only doesn"t make rods I'm not sure that he even fishes, bygoingover to china and hand selecting us a good load of cane and he getshammered for it. If he was in it for the money he certainly wouldn'tpick bamboo rod makers for a market to explore, we're not exactlygigantic, if you figure in the cost of him going over there andstaying Myonly hope is that those of you who do find what he did as ridiculouswont buy any of his cane leaving all that more for the rest of uswhoappreciate it. Patrick ----------From: Terence Ackland[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Robert Clarke wrote: I am not sure if it is worth it or not, but it appears to methatAndyhasmade a genuine effort to bring some quality cane into the US, atatimewhen it is difficult to supply. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ---------- Robert,I fully understand what Andy is trying to do, but does heundestandthatthe market for Tonkin cane is so small? Almost all of therodmakersoutthere are hand planers and build in their spare time. It is also uneccessary to have a culm that is completely flawlessbecause there are always strips left over. As long as we can get acouple of two tip rods from a culm, which I must admit I could notget from half of the last batch I got from Demarest. We can splitaroundtheodd cut marks and holes like we always have done, it is no bigdeal,aslong as we have enough left over for rods. You can call me cynical, but do I detect just a littlesalesmanshipin Andys jungle adventure? from aa0rq@juno.com Fri Sep 5 12:05:57 1997 13:03:54 EDT Subject: Denver Bill is back Hello guys: Harry Middleton told his shrink " I can't seem to remember if humptydumpty was pushed or just fell off the wall". I spoke and had aneyeball with Jerry Johnson a couple weeks ago while driving throughLaramie, Wy. Jerry is a wonderful person and I highly recommend stopping cast my little 6'6" rod and I gave him some photos of yours truly. jerrysaid " when you disappear from the list I thought I would never hear ofyou again". A little History: My wife out of no where said she wanted a devorce after she excepted arod I made(February) for her as an anniversary present. I asked her whyshe took the rod her comment " it is a beautiful thing" anyway she nevergave me a reason for the devorce and would not when i attempted queryher. Anyway I moved my stuff out to a little storage place that had onelight bulb and very little elbow room once all my furniture etc wasplaced in it. But at least I started planning my fourth rod. Then one night I met a lady on vacation in denver from Stockton, Ca at adance club we danced all night long and ended up camping in the Rockies western slope of the Rockies in search for cut throat trout..i ended uppacking up early and drove 20 hours straight to Stockton to see her...icould not get her out of the brain. After awhile I excepted her off tostay and make rods this winter...she gave me a room in her house( theden) to setup the rod making and ham radio. Who would resist that offer. My old setup in denver was in a dimly lighted basement which was notfinished. We drove back to denver a couple weeks ago and picked mycanoe, rod making gear, and ham radio stuff. So what can I say" life is dam strange isn't it" the pain of it is worthit all. We fish most every week in the Sierra nevada range and have verylittle fishing pressure not like the pressure near denver with theyuppies and their plastic rods. the native trout are grand out here. Boy wish I could find a fly shop where the guys fish bamboo...onlylocated an Orvis shop...nice guys but not down to the basics the way someof the guys in Denver were... not to forget Rocky Mountain Kane nearDenver. Joe I found the thread owe you in storage when i went back todenver I will mail it to you. So ...there it is in a nut shell. Oh yes i understand there is good cane here in Stockton at Tuxedo cane iwill call them today and look at the stock. Does the Demerest still havecane? They are the greatest people to deal with. i hope the people atTuxedo are half as nice to me. Oh yes i want to meet rod makers in california so e mail me atAA0RQ@juno.com Best regards to all, Bill Hensel/ Stockton, California from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Fri Sep 5 16:33:44 1997 (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA245 Subject: Re: Colour preserver Subject: Colour preserver Here's an old chestnut.I've just tried using shellac as a colour preserver with silk and a guide and it seems to work great. It makes me wonder if there is a basic problem with it that I don't see.Has anybody used shellac as a colour preserver with good or otherwise results? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ Hi Tony, White shellac (not yellow) works O.K. but use several coats (at least 3). from mrj@seanet.com Fri Sep 5 16:52:17 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05029 for Subject: Re: Raising a little cane ... Christian Thalacker wrote: This is a quote from Walton Powell?"Much ado is made about special tapers, mostly by people who do notknow what they are talking about. ... There are only 3 basic tapers -progressive, degressive, and uniform" [and what is most important,regardless of taper, is unity and continuity of action]". Cheers, ChristianI am not sure exactly what you (He) are driving at by saying "there areonly three basic tapers". Would not a combination of both progressive anddegressive in one rod be considered "a taper"? Can you explain just whatdegressive means? I am not really sure on that. Also the rate of taper willmake one rod feel completely different from another even if they have thesame basic design. In some sense I have to make a comparison to thestatement that "there is only one basic type of tire. It is made of rubber"Again I seem to be missing his point.-- Martin Jensen from montana4@bright.net Fri Sep 5 17:09:58 1997 Subject: signoff.... September 5, 1997 Please sign me off rodmakers. Thanks, fo all the information. PD KUKAY from aa0rq@juno.com Fri Sep 5 17:24:32 1997 18:22:40 EDT Subject: A Little Good will goes long ways I ve seen it done...when a man gives to and art form and because of hisefforts the Art goes go and doesn't die. Do you have any idea who I amtalking about? Frank Armbrewster doesn't fish but respects hand crafted things likewooden airplane propellers etc. Mr. Armbrewster is a man who made adifference who stepped out of the shadows and told Ralph Moon "I canmakethose forms" and Frank did just that. But that's not the entirestory...its Franks to tell . My point is Andy ( who i don't know by the way) probably is one of thoseguys who have great respect for handcrafted things and simply had achance to give something to someone without profit being in the forefrontof his thinking. If a man gives from his heart and the quality is withinthe gift, profit can always be a product and generally adds to thelongevity of the gift and the giving experience. It might be to rod makers advantages to open new windows and leave theego out of the thinking. I hope we will always have good bambooavailable because of the great quantity of humanity that has gravitatedto the rod building experience. The Deramrest history stands alone as a solid reference point for Tonkincane and will always be the standard of quality others will measurethemselves against. Thank God Mr. Demurest stepped out of the shadowsyears ago. More laughter and more joy, Bill Hensel - Stockton(where they kill each other day in day out andnever feel the rythum of a bamboo fly rod...If they did the guns wouldrust and decay) for now as long as I can plane on a rod life is prettydamn good . Rod making is cool go for it in a radical total way I did and it wasworth it. from john@cyberchatcafe.com Fri Sep 5 18:00:38 1997 www.cyberchatcafe.com(EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id;Fri, 05 Sep 1997 17:00:45 -0600 Subject: accessing archives could someone please help acomplete computer novice access the rodmakers listserve archives? Iwouldappreciate allthe help I can Understand. from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 5 18:04:55 1997 Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Just mentioning that formaldehyde adhesives will not set attemperaturesbelow 70F. These adhesives actually need some heat to set them off, thenthey will set in a matter of minutes. If properly used they are asuperior adhesive compared to many modern formulations and are by farstill the most widely used used adhesive in the world today. Exterior plywood is laminated from these adhesives because of theirmoisture resistance. Many curved and bent laminations also use thisadhesive because they can take the high stresses involved withoutcreeping. This is an important consideration when building flyrods.Terry Could you give some commercial names? Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 5 18:05:09 1997 Subject: Re: Need Help: Refinishing Cork Handles.... If there were any useful replies to this mailing, I missed them. This is amuch under-valued part of finishing a handle. The difference that highgradefilling and sanding makes to the appearance and use of a rod is enormous.The old makers used a pretty coarse sanded finish, I know. Frankly, I don'tgive a good tinker's cuss what the old makers did, unless I'm restoringfororiginality, so I finish to an extremely fine surface by filling withChemical Wood, then sanding underwater with a tube of 1000 grade wet-n-dry. I've tried white glue and cork dust, and it's sort of OK. Still, I'd like touse something woodier than Chemical Wood, and would welcome ideas.I'verecently finished a handle with fine cork dust/ shellac filler. It looksgood, but I'm not sure how it will hold up to hard use. Any thoughts? I've used the cork dust and white glue approach and also find it okay.The real trick seems to be in getting the right mix of glue and cork. Any time I remove an old cork grip, I throe the parts in a jar. I work themdown on a rasp, over a piece of white paper as I need them. The jar lid is amixing area for the glue and cork. sanding is the problem. I tend to get inahurry. Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from russett@bcn.net Fri Sep 5 18:23:46 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA04649 for Subject: Re: Is it worth it? PatrickI agree.. The first ones to come out with degrading comments on whatappears to be a conscientious effort to supply a superior product willbe the first to buy as much as possible when they are sure of what theyare buying. Larry from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 5 18:34:07 1997 (205.236.248.115) Subject: is it worth it 11 Hi,I have a professional rodmaker friend, a real rodmaker, not like usyoyos that learned through books and videos. He learned his trade withone of the last famous rodmaking companies in the US as an apprenticeand has made rods all his life. The guy builds beautiful, beautiful rods and has a strong following inJapan. A Japanese film crew even came over to make a documentary abouthis skills. He deserves and gets a good price for his rods in comparison to most,yet because of his very meticulous finishing the $ per hour works out ata very small reward. Add to this the rental of a building and utilitiesand it is subsistance living. When I last visited him it was a million miles away from the poetic Terry Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 5 18:59:23 1997 (205.236.248.115) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: Just mentioning that formaldehyde adhesives will not set attemperaturesbelow 70F. These adhesives actually need some heat to set them off,thenthey will set in a matter of minutes. If properly used they are asuperior adhesive compared to many modern formulations and are by far still the most widely used used adhesive in the world today. Exterior plywood is laminated from these adhesives because of theirmoisture resistance. Many curved and bent laminations also use thisadhesive because they can take the high stresses involved withoutcreeping. This is an important consideration when building flyrods.Terry Could you give some commercial names? Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net Terry,I use Melurac 400 it is a formaldehyde ahesive fotified with melamine.It is more heat proof that urac and also more moisture proof. It is athermoset adhesive and requires an oven to cure it. This has theadvantage of almost unlimited open time, so there is no rush to glue up. After gluing up the sections can be wiped with a wet cloth to removesqueeze out then straightened and cooked. The sections do not have to becooked straight away, 24 hr I think is the max time.When the adhesive is cured the cord can be removed and very littlesanding is req because all the adhesive has been removed with the wetrag.Curing temp is 280f max and cures in about 10 mins.I would not recommend this adhesive to everyone, some guys take perversepleasure in scraping away at epoxy. 'It cannot be a good rod unless 60hrs was spent on it' types should not use it.The uvver Terryps do not think of the computer desk when you think of melamine. itdoes not cure to that type of plastic. from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 5 19:11:30 1997 (205.236.248.115) Subject: Re: Is it worth it? Larry & Jane Russett wrote: PatrickI agree.. The first ones to come out with degrading comments on whatappears to be a conscientious effort to supply a superior product will be the first to buy as much as possible when they are sure of whattheyare buying. Larry Larry,It was not meant to be degrading, perhaps just a little suspicous. Afterall as the saying goes "if it seems to be too good to betrue..................."I remember buying 1000 cork rings after being sent a sample of thequality.....you can guess.Terry from mrj@seanet.com Fri Sep 5 19:53:20 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11929 for Subject: Re: accessing archives John Channer wrote: could someone please help acomplete computer novice access the rodmakers listserve archives? Iwouldappreciate allthe help I can Understand. http://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htmThis is the rodmakers web page. You will find the links you need there.-- Martin Jensen from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 5 20:04:39 1997 Subject: Re: missing mail John, I carry nickel silver tubing in sizes from 1/4 " to 7/8". also nickelsilver bar stock. Either E-Mail me your address or write to me and I will send you my price list. David LeClairThe Fly and RodRoomP.O. Box 565Elbridge, NY13060USA from WDHCJL@aol.com Fri Sep 5 22:46:46 1997 Subject: Re: Is it worth it? I have remained silent for the bulk of the "new source" dialoge...but... Ithink there are several points to keep in mind. Some may call it loyaltybutthe truth of the matter is that the Demorest's are unequaled in experiencewith the Chinese Govt/Culture and have put forth incredible efforts onbehalfof rodmakers. The problems they experienced with this last shipment arethesame potential pitfall of anyone attempting to deal with the Chinese. Theyare totally at thier mercy. They place a very specific order in good faithand hope it will be honored and filled as promised. I have faith in them asthey have served and supported rodmaking well thru the years. Face it,securing quality tonkin for our use is no easy matter. We should bethankfulto anyone willing to work thru such difficulties on our behalf. from flyfisher@rhco.com Fri Sep 5 22:48:02 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id XAA25811 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: Line Weights I have found that when I have made a rod that has a distinct spline (avery obvious jump when determining which flat to put the guides) that itcasts best with one line weight heavier than the taper was designed. Ihave only made rods from Wayne's book and the Taper Archive. I assumethat because of the weaker flats the rod needs a heavier line toproperly load. Is this a good assumption? Brian ThomanAtlanta, GA from leschrader@dvsdghse.com Sat Sep 6 10:17:13 1997 Subject: subscription Sir,I subscribed a while back and was receiving e-mail from "rodmakers".....recently, a week ago, my local provider's system died (hard drivefailures) and after this time I didn't receive any further e-mail from"rodmakers". I tried to resubscribe but the system returned the messagethat I was already a member, this was 2 days ago and still nomessages.....please advise... Thanks, Larry Schraderleschrader@dvsdghse.com from aa0rq@juno.com Sat Sep 6 10:21:41 1997 11:21:02 EDT Subject: Calling All HAMs Iam looking for rodmakers that are hams so we could talk aboutrodmakingvia Amature Radio. 73 Bill AA0RQ from aa0rq@juno.com Sat Sep 6 10:21:56 1997 11:21:03 EDT Subject: Tuxcedo cane Has anyone actually gotten hold of Tuxcedo Canes bamboo yet. I have beenpretty isolated lately due to the devorce and just getting back on thelist. I want to buy as much cane as I can so to prevent running out ifthe bamboo rots on a boat. Kind a kidding but use to receive ratan fromthat part of the world among other items that were related to my businessa few years ago and I fully aware of the obstacles that buyers/importershave to run up against from time to time. I am not an expert in anythingjust a kid stumbling in the dark. Regards, Bill Hensel from aa0rq@juno.com Sat Sep 6 10:21:57 1997 11:21:02 EDT Subject: An Interesting Book "CLASSIC BAMBOO RODMAKERS past and present" by Dick Spurr Its copy write date is 1992 price $14.95I found the history of rod makers very interesting and many of the rodmakers read books and were basically isolated from the more famedRodmakers and litteraly bootstraped themselves up through the craft. None of these Rodmakers who evolved on their own were yoyos they didnothave the opportunity to study directly under a master like some did. My second wife was Japanese and left me with this " the first master hadno master". Have fun, build the best rod you can and fish it hard and in the end youdie. Regards, Bill from STEVEF@inetone.net Sat Sep 6 10:38:54 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:41:30 -0400 (206.105.173.21::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Sat, 06 Sep1997 11:41:30 -0400 Subject: Newbie Let me introduce myself as a "newbie" to the list. As I suspect manypeople on the list started out, I am an avid flyfisherman, and also woodworker (though not I have become increasingly interested in making split cane rods due to theinterest in both, and having many of the handtools necessary for making split canerods. I plan to set back and observe, read, and ask a few questions along theway. Is there an archive of posts to the list I can access? Thanks for allowing me the pleasure of learning from every one of you. Steve from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 6 12:32:39 1997 Subject: Re: Newbie In a message dated 97-09-06 11:44:24 EDT, you write: Is there an archive of posts to the list I can access? Sure there is! look at Jerry Fosters web page, and you willfind a link to the archives. http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm Darryl Hayashida from aa0rq@juno.com Sat Sep 6 14:06:10 1997 15:05:52 EDT Subject: Re: Newbie Steve, I was where you were last October and here are my comments: 1. Buy metal planning forms from Frank Armbruster(http://home.earthlink.net/~bootstrap)2. Purchase Wyane Cattanach Vedios and TextbookAs time goes on you will have all questions answered. I checked into thelist OCT 28 , 1996 and by March had built three rods and even each rodwas a good fishing rod. Also Wayne Cattanach oven design is great. Regards, Bill Stockton, Ca from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Sat Sep 6 14:33:46 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA14192 Subject: Re: Calling All HAMs William A. Hensel wrote: Iam looking for rodmakers that are hams so we could talk aboutrodmakingvia Amature Radio. 73 Bill AA0RQsorry i am not from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Sat Sep 6 14:35:28 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA14771 Subject: Re: An Interesting Book William A. Hensel wrote: "CLASSIC BAMBOO RODMAKERS past and present" by Dick SpurrIts copy write date is 1992 price $14.95I found the history of rod makers very interesting and many of the rodmakers read books and were basically isolated from the more famedRodmakers and litteraly bootstraped themselves up through the craft.None of these Rodmakers who evolved on their own were yoyos theydidnothave the opportunity to study directly under a master like some did. My second wife was Japanese and left me with this " the first masterhadno master". Have fun, build the best rod you can and fish it hard and in the end youdie. Regards, Billwhere can you get the book from aa0rq@juno.com Sat Sep 6 16:46:21 1997 17:46:00 EDT Subject: Re: An Interesting Book Do you have a name? Send inquiries to Centennial Publications, 2835 BLexington Lane, Grand Junction, Colorado 81503 paperback ISBN #9629439-5-9hardbound ISBN #0-9629439-4-6 The soft bound is still a nice book for your library. I actually found it in a Orvis Fly shop in stockton. Damn surprised theyhad it but since I mentioned bamboo to them they stocked one copy. Lots of luck who ever you are!!! from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Sep 6 17:21:52 1997 with SMTP id AAA11426 for ;Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:21:17 +0000 Subject: Re: An Interesting Book Read his book carefully...so did Tom Dorsey and Tom Maxwell get togetherat the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor or at Michigan StateUniversity in East Lansing??? (It depends upon which of the biographiesyou read in his book.) I pointed out the inconsistency in an e-mail toDick Spurr and never even received a reply. George William A. Hensel wrote: "CLASSIC BAMBOO RODMAKERS past and present" by Dick SpurrIts copy write date is 1992 price $14.95I found the history of rod makers very interesting and many of the rodmakers read books and were basically isolated from the more famedRodmakers and litteraly bootstraped themselves up through the craft.None of these Rodmakers who evolved on their own were yoyos theydidnothave the opportunity to study directly under a master like some did. My second wife was Japanese and left me with this " the first masterhadno master". Have fun, build the best rod you can and fish it hard and in the end youdie. Regards, Bill from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 6 21:01:56 1997 ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Calling All HAMs Well so far I haven't built a rod but I am collecting everything to start.I've been a fly fisher for a long time, I have two grandchildren almost oldenough to start and I've been a ham(look at the user id) for almost as longas I've been a fly fisher. I only found out about bamboo rod making a fewweeks ago(a friend dropped off a copy of Bruce Conner's FAQ page) but I amlooking forward to adding this to my list of too many hobbies. Besides, itwould sure be great if I could start my granddaughter out with a handmaderod. I did start out making my first fly rod(if you would call it that)and it was cane. I was about eight and I made the rod(pole?) from a canethat grew along the streams in Arkansas. I used casting line(I had no flyline) but I fly fished and I caught fish. I would love to talk fishing, rodbuilding and anything else on the air.73Onis K5VKQk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 11:21 AM 9/6/97 EDT, you wrote:Iam looking for rodmakers that are hams so we could talk aboutrodmakingvia Amature Radio. 73 Bill AA0RQ from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Sat Sep 6 21:36:46 1997 mailfep4-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Calling All HAMs type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Well Bill your 'CQ' managed to drag at least one ham out of thecloset. My call is WW8X and I've been involved off and on in ham radiosince about 1976. Actually, I must admit that my rod buildingactivities have largely taken over my spare time and I haven't spentmuch time on the 'bands' as I once did. It would be interesting to seeif there are other 'hams' out there who have an interest in cane rodsalso. Contact me off the list if you want to chat via radio -- and wecan perhaps pick a band that might work. 73 OM. Joe Loverti / WW8X /triadvertising@sprintmail.com(http://www.triadvertising.com/canerods) from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun Sep 7 00:15:47 1997 ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:17:21 +1200 Subject: Re: subscription Larry I had a similar problem a while ago and found the only way to get back onwas to go through the proceedure for a temporary suspension of messagesandthen reinstatment Ian K At 07:07 AM 6/09/97 -0700, you wrote:Sir,I subscribed a while back and was receiving e-mail from "rodmakers".....recently, a week ago, my local provider's system died (hard drivefailures) and after this time I didn't receive any further e-mail from"rodmakers". I tried to resubscribe but the system returned the messagethat I was already a member, this was 2 days ago and still nomessages.....please advise... Thanks, Larry Schraderleschrader@dvsdghse.com Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun Sep 7 00:16:09 1997 ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:17:27 +1200 Subject: Re: new kid with questions Mike If the rod is not Americian I can probably help however there may bepeoplecloser . Let me know what happens Ian kAt 12:34 PM 30/08/97 -0500, you wrote:I just "inherited" an older bamboo fly rod from a relative who got it as agift and doesn't fish. I I'm not sue of its origin and would like to find out a little more aboutit. Is this the right place to get some info? If so, I can describe it - if not, could you suggest where I might check? thanks in advance,mike d Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from jfoster@gte.net Sun Sep 7 08:55:06 1997 Subject: Re: subscription Larry,.... Mike Biondo sent us all a reminder about about a year ago about how tohandle your mail during vacation. I (and Mike) have found that it alsoseems to work well when your listserver mail gets inadvertantlysuspended..... Try this first.. send a message to the listproc at:listproc@mail.wustl.edu Put "mail" as the title and put the following in the body SET RODMAKERS MAIL ACK This has worked quite well.. If that doesn't work mail Mike Jerry from jfoster@gte.net Sun Sep 7 08:56:21 1997 Subject: Re: subscription Welcome back Hank.. how was Montuckey Jerry from vjwilson@micron.net Sun Sep 7 13:25:31 1997 Subject: Re: Calling All HAMs hi all. this is my first posting, but i have been perusingthe list for a couple of months. i am not a bamboo rodmaker but am a beginning collector and refurbisher. i havefound several helpful hints here for those pursuits. oh, iam a confessed obscessed fly fisher.my call is WB7PFU.leonard in idaho from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Sun Sep 7 15:42:16 1997 0000 Subject: pinned ferrule removal how exactly do you go about removing a pinned ferrule??? i have an old9ft. rod, which i have already stripped the mid and tip so i can make itinto a banty....the female ferrule on the mid section is loose, so i'd liketo remove the ferrule w/o damaging it, so i can reglue it.....i've tried toremove the male ferrule on the mid as an experiment (cause it will beunderthe RS anyway) by using my Dremel and drilling out the pin, then heatingthe ferrule and trying to remove it that way, well it didn't work, so ifanyone could explain the process i'd really appreciate it....THANKS!! ____________ \_______________________________________________________________////_////______MattLeiderman____mleider@postoffice.ptd.net__/// \\\\_\\\\___________http://home.ptd.net/~mleider/____________\\\ ____________/ O-,- \||||/_____(_______\||/_o-------------------------------- --------------`''''''/||\/||||\ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 7 16:21:22 1997 (205.236.249.191) Subject: Re: Line Weights Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I have found that when I have made a rod that has a distinct spline (a very obvious jump when determining which flat to put the guides) thatitcasts best with one line weight heavier than the taper was designed.Ihave only made rods from Wayne's book and the Taper Archive. I assume that because of the weaker flats the rod needs a heavier line toproperly load. Is this a good assumption? Brian ThomanAtlanta, GA Brian,it is not a spine that you have, it is because the section is notcompletely straight. Rolling the section will always find the concavebow.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 7 16:30:03 1997 (205.236.249.191) Subject: Re: Is it worth it? WDHCJL@aol.com wrote: I have remained silent for the bulk of the "new source"dialoge...but... Ithink there are several points to keep in mind. Some may call itloyalty butthe truth of the matter is that the Demorest's are unequaled inexperiencewith the Chinese Govt/Culture and have put forth incredible efforts onbehalfof rodmakers. The problems they experienced with this last shipmentare thesame potential pitfall of anyone attempting to deal with theChinese. Theyare totally at thier mercy. They place a very specific order in goodfaithand hope it will be honored and filled as promised. I have faith inthem asthey have served and supported rodmaking well thru the years. Faceit,securing quality tonkin for our use is no easy matter. We should bethankfulto anyone willing to work thru such difficulties on our behalf. I am of the opinion that if Demarest cannot get good bamboo thenperhaps there is none, after all the company has been in the business ofimporting cane for almost a century. On the other hand, if Demarest cannot supply it and it is available fromanother scource......Terry from STEVEF@inetone.net Sun Sep 7 16:30:11 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:32:36 -0400 (206.105.173.88::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep1997 17:32:35 -0400 Subject: planing forms Thanks for the responses to the newbie questions about archives. Are there any online plans for making your own planing forms, particularlyout of wood- or a wood based substrate such as MDF (which would be more stable thanwood)? If not-are there any written resources (books, magazines) which would have thesame? Please excuse if this is a dumb newbie question Thanks Steve from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 7 17:29:45 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA1323 Subject: Re: planing forms Steve Ferris wrote: Thanks for the responses to the newbie questions about archives. Are there any online plans for making your own planing forms,particularly out of wood-or a wood based substrate such as MDF (which would be more stable thanwood)? If not-arethere any written resources (books, magazines) which would have thesame? Please excuse if this is a dumb newbie question ThanksSteve Hi Steve, Try this page: http://kalypso.cybercom.net/~bconner/rod.html Follow the threads both forward and backward. Mr. Conner is realrenaisance man. Regards,Ed Estlow from STEVEF@inetone.net Sun Sep 7 19:57:31 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep 1997 20:51:40 -0400 (206.105.173.65::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep1997 20:49:56 -0400 Subject: Re: planing forms Thanks Ed from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Sep 7 20:02:04 1997 Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:01:14 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: planing forms On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Steve Ferris wrote: Thanks for the responses to the newbie questions about archives. Are there any online plans for making your own planing forms,particularly out of wood- or a wood based substrate such as MDF (which would be more stable thanwood)? If not-are there any written resources (books, magazines) which would have thesame? Please excuse if this is a dumb newbie question Thanks Steve Steve,Take a look at my home page, it has instructions for such a form and maybe useful to you. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Sun Sep 7 20:23:58 1997 Subject: Beats Nails? I was searching around the local hardware stores for some Resorcinol -didn't find any. A clerk at one part had some DAP Beats Nailsconstruction glue - claimed it was better than Resorconol (he even knewwhat it was). Has anyone heard of this stuff or has tried it? It's grayin color, I believe. Don Burnsflyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from STEVEF@inetone.net Sun Sep 7 20:25:19 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep 1997 21:25:18 -0400 (206.105.173.65::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Sun, 07 Sep1997 21:25:17 -0400 Subject: Re: planing forms Thanks Tony from suiriver@sprynet.com Sun Sep 7 20:46:24 1997 m2.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA14666 for; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:46:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Cane!! Help Nathan Schaan wrote: Does anyone know of where I can get some decent quality cane for myfirst rod. I live in the Green Bay, WI area. I have tried the addresson the rodbuilders WWW site and they replied that all of their cane hasmold damage. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Nathan Schaan Nathan:We just received a shipment of tonkin cane which we ordered this Springwhile I visited Waitsap. I'll sell you $5.00/piece in 3 pieces package +shipping.-- Sui River Corp. Tel: (812)342-2715Fax: (812)342-3017 from suiriver@sprynet.com Sun Sep 7 21:06:46 1997 m2.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA24253 for; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:07:15 -0700 Subject: Tonkin cane Hi, Folks:We just received a shipment of Tonkin cane which we ordered this Springwhile I visited Waitsap. They are genuine Tonkin canes with thick walland in 1 3/4" ~ 2" diameter. They are good canes with farmer's marks.We'll sell for $5.00 a piece in a 3-piece or 25-piece package +shipping. Inquiry off list, please. Thanks! Sui River Corp. e-mail: suiriver@sprynet.comTel: (812)342-2715Fax: (812)342-3017 from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sun Sep 7 21:16:51 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRODMAKERS@Wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 20:12:00 MDT #19314) RODMAKERS@Wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: Thanks from g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jp Sun Sep 7 23:41:01 1997 NAA20759 (JST) Subject: Re: is it worth it 11 Monday, 8th September 1997 Dear Rodmakers, If I am thinking about the same show that show aired here in Japan lastwinter ... a Japanese rodmaker/flyfisherman was visiting New Hampshire(Ibelieve) and through the help of his friend/guide, was able to visit somenice streams and with some old-time craftsmen. I wish I could rememberyourfriend's name, but he was great ... never fished he joked, just madebeautiful cane. Cheers, Christian Home OfficeMr. Christian ThalackerMansion Miyake #303 Otaru University of CommerceKita 16 Nishi 3 International Students CenterKita-ku 001 Sapporo Room 157Hokkaido - Japan Otaru - Hokkaido - Japan Email: g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jpYes, I am just a number Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,I have a professional rodmaker friend, a real rodmaker, not like usyoyos that learned through books and videos. He learned his trade withone of the last famous rodmaking companies in the US as an apprenticeand has made rods all his life. The guy builds beautiful, beautiful rods and has a strong following inJapan. A Japanese film crew even came over to make a documentaryabouthis skills. He deserves and gets a good price for his rods in comparison to most,yet because of his very meticulous finishing the $ per hour works out ata very small reward. Add to this the rental of a building and utilitiesand it is subsistance living. When I last visited him it was a million miles away from the poetic Terry Ackland from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Sep 8 07:22:21 1997 Subject: Re: Colour preserver In a message dated 9/5/97 1:35:47 PM, you wrote: Tony - White shellac is all the old timers had. I don't think lacquer basedpreservers became available until the 1930's. Shellac will have a slightlyglazed look that is fairly distinctive. Try it on different color threads andsee if you like it. This stuff is sometimes the key to getting a color matchon an old rod. -- Tom from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Mon Sep 8 08:13:28 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:13:23 -0400 Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:13:23 -0400 Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:13:23 -0400 Subject: Dickerson Beveler I have heard some of a Dickerson Beveler. Would anyone have experience,plans,or puctures of this to share? Also, has anyone tried beveling with arouter? Iappreciate any help. Thank you. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Mon Sep 8 08:31:24 1997 0000 Subject: Agates for Casting rod needed Hello, I have found a nice bamboo casting rod which is diamond wrapped fulllengthand in nice condition except for missing the two agate guides whichshould be on the rod shaft. The agte tip top appears to be from the 20's or30's and is of round wire construction. I would like to buy two wire frameagates suitable for this rod. One would need to be somewhat large and theother smaller. I have several large saltwater clamp-on agates which appear to be fromthe20's or 30's and are very nice. Will trade or sell if someone needs orwants them. I also have several bamboo project rods which I will not get to, for sale.Several Heddons included. Email if interested in a list. Thanks, Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307CEffort PA 18330 610 681 5670 mstevens@ptdprolog.net Stevens Sight & Tool CoMaker of fine sights for antique single shot target rifles Collector of Heddon and other bamboo flyrods and casting rods. HeddonRiverRunt Spooks and Coxe baitcasting reels. from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Mon Sep 8 09:32:31 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:32:29 -0400 Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:32:29 -0400 Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:32:29 -0400 Subject: Fiberglass/Graphite Curiousity I have always wondered how fiberglass or graphite rod blanks are made. Iscloth wrapped on a mandrel? Does anyone have any descriptive infoavailable orknow where I might find some. (Yes, I'm just looking to keep up on theuselesstrivia!!) I would appreciate any assitance. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Sep 8 09:40:53 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 09:40:59 -0500 Subject: RE: Fiberglass/Graphite Curiousity 4.0.995.52 The Herter book "Manufacturing bamboo and Fiberglass rods" and SkipMorris's book on " Building Custom Graphite Fly Rods" have both got gooddescriptions of the process. I am not certan about the actual titles. Iam at work and the books are at home. ----------From: jaw12@health.state.ny.us[SMTP:jaw12@health.state.ny.us]Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 8:30 AM Subject: Fiberglass/Graphite Curiousity I have always wondered how fiberglass or graphite rod blanks are made.Iscloth wrapped on a mandrel? Does anyone have any descriptive infoavailableorknow where I might find some. (Yes, I'm just looking to keep up on theuselesstrivia!!) I would appreciate any assitance. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Sep 8 09:57:56 1997 Subject: Re[2]: Calling All HAMs RO>hi all. this is my first posting, but i have been perusingRO>the list for a couple of months. i am not a bamboo rodRO>maker but am a beginning collector and refurbisher. i haveRO>found several helpful hints here for those pursuits. oh, iRO>am a confessed obscessed fly fisher.RO>my call is WB7PFU.RO>leonard in idaho Leonard, With a name like that - why not build a rod. I too am a rod restorer (refurbisher) and collector, if you need rodsections or anything - email me directly. Sorry my server chops offemail names from list-serv postings, so I can't post directly to youmyself yet. Don Burns from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Sep 8 09:58:26 1997 Subject: RE:pinned ferrule removal RO>how exactly do you go about removing a pinned ferrule??? i have anoldRO>9ft. rod, which i have already stripped the mid and tip so i can make itRO>into a banty....the female ferrule on the mid section is loose, so i'd likeRO>to remove the ferrule w/o damaging it, so i can reglue it.....i've tried toRO>remove the male ferrule on the mid as an experiment (cause it will beunderRO>the RS anyway) by using my Dremel and drilling out the pin, thenheatingRO>the ferrule and trying to remove it that way, well it didn't work, so ifRO>anyone could explain the process i'd really appreciate it....THANKS!! RO>RO>____________RO> \_______________________________________________________________RO> ////_////______MattLeiderman____mleider@postoffice.ptd.net__/// Matt, Sometimes the easiest way is to drive the pin in until the ferruleclears it. A 0.039" gun punch, with the shorter pin length, fromBrownell's is perfect for the task. Don Burns from gwr@seanet.com Mon Sep 8 10:32:22 1997 Subject: Re: Fiberglass/Graphite Curiousity John, Two books to get you started. First, "The Custom Graphite Fly Rod" Both have a chapter on blank design and construction. Plenty of uselesstrivia between the two. Russ GoodingGolden Witch Rodsgwr@seanet.comhttp://www.goldenwitch.com At 10:30 AM 9/8/97 EDT, you wrote: I have always wondered how fiberglass or graphite rod blanks are made.Iscloth wrapped on a mandrel? Does anyone have any descriptive infoavailable orknow where I might find some. (Yes, I'm just looking to keep up on theuselesstrivia!!) I would appreciate any assitance. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Sep 8 12:27:17 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id NAA14371 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Line Weights I do roll my section to find the concave bow and my blanks are extremelystraight. It's just that when I roll the blank there is a verynoticeable jump. I figured that this is because that flat may be somuch weaker than the others to that it needs a heavier line to properlyload. Brian Brian,it is not a spine that you have, it is because the section is notcompletely straight. Rolling the section will always find the concavebow.Terry from teekay35@interlynx.net Mon Sep 8 12:28:26 1997 NAA16805 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:28:19 - Subject: Re: Colour preserver ----------From: Jorge Carcao Subject: Re: Colour preserverDate: Friday, September 05, 1997 1:32 PM Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:28:55 +0800 (WST) From: Tony Young Subject: Colour preserver Here's an old chestnut.I've just tried using shellac as a colour preserver with silk and a guide and it seems to work great. It makes me wonder if there is a basic problem with it that I don't see.Has anybody used shellac as a colour preserver with good or otherwise results? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ Hi Tony, White shellac (not yellow) works O.K. but use several coats (at least 3). from ttalsma@macatawa.org Mon Sep 8 15:54:42 1997 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06021 for ; Subject: Hello.... hello...Is anybody out there?-- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Todd Talsma + Sligh Furniture Company + Phone:616- 394-0560 ++Sr. Systems Analyst + 1201 Industrial Avenue + Fax: 616- 392-9495 +++++++++++++++++++++++ Holland MI 49423 ++++++++++++++++++++++ from flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Mon Sep 8 17:37:57 1997 Subject: FWD:Nickle Silver Tubing If anyone can help out a friend of mine - please reply directly to Mac. Thanks Don Burns Copy of his postto me: MC>Don, MC>I havn't been on the Rodmakers listserv for quite a while now. HaveyouMC>seen any posts from a guy who's last name starts with a Z. SomethinglikeMC>Zempke or ? He was trying to get a group together to purchase a largelotMC>of nickle silver tubing for ferrules. A.J. (no web access right now)wantsMC>to get in contact with him and I said I would see if you rememberseeingMC>any posts like that. MC>MacMC>mcdowellc@lanecc.edu from aa0rq@juno.com Mon Sep 8 17:56:55 1997 18:55:47 EDT Subject: Re: Hello.... No We all went fishing either for real or inour minds...is there anydifference....I often wonder. Bill/ Stockton, Ca from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Mon Sep 8 18:39:31 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) 04/19/90) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Terry,Can I just leave to set in the sun? I don't have any fancy equipment now.Regards,Sergio On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Terry,I use Melurac 400 it is a formaldehyde ahesive fotified with melamine.It is more heat proof that urac and also more moisture proof. It is athermoset adhesive and requires an oven to cure it. This has theadvantage of almost unlimited open time, so there is no rush to glue up. After gluing up the sections can be wiped with a wet cloth to removesqueeze out then straightened and cooked. The sections do not have to becooked straight away, 24 hr I think is the max time.When the adhesive is cured the cord can be removed and very littlesanding is req because all the adhesive has been removed with the wetrag.Curing temp is 280f max and cures in about 10 mins.I would not recommend this adhesive to everyone, some guys takeperversepleasure in scraping away at epoxy. 'It cannot be a good rod unless 60hrs was spent on it' types should not use it.The uvver Terryps do not think of the computer desk when you think of melamine. itdoes not cure to that type of plastic. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 8 18:57:40 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Sergio Hiroshi Ishikawa wrote: Terry,Can I just leave to set in the sun? I don't have any fancy equipmentnow.Regards,Sergio On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Terry,I use Melurac 400 it is a formaldehyde ahesive fotified withmelamine.It is more heat proof that urac and also more moisture proof. It isathermoset adhesive and requires an oven to cure it. This has theadvantage of almost unlimited open time, so there is no rush to glueup. After gluing up the sections can be wiped with a wet cloth to remove squeeze out then straightened and cooked. The sections do not haveto becooked straight away, 24 hr I think is the max time.When the adhesive is cured the cord can be removed and very littlesanding is req because all the adhesive has been removed with thewetrag.Curing temp is 280f max and cures in about 10 mins.I would not recommend this adhesive to everyone, some guys takeperversepleasure in scraping away at epoxy. 'It cannot be a good rod unless60hrs was spent on it' types should not use it.The uvver Terryps do not think of the computer desk when you think of melamine. it does not cure to that type of plastic. Sergio, you must have the heat To cure Melurac. Urac 185 cures without heat butyou have to work fast or to get a lumpy glue line. Even this adhesiveworks better with a little heat.Terry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 8 19:07:34 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,8 Sep 1997 20:07:28 EDT That Zemke guy...hehe...is John Zimny. You can look up his home page onthe rodmakers archive. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 8 19:15:07 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,8 Sep 1997 20:15:03 EDT Subject: Tom Smithwick I seem to have mis placed my e-mail list. Tom, would you please e- mailmedirectly? Thanks. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from JBever9879@aol.com Mon Sep 8 19:32:46 1997 Subject: unsubscribe please unsubscribe from cmax@jymis.com Mon Sep 8 20:16:15 1997 Subject: stress curve questions Rodmakers, It had been quite some time since i last looked over the taper archive. I noticed the other night that stress curves for respective tapers havebeen added-an outstanding addition. I must admit , however that thevariances in scale can be quite confusing. Also, I was wondering aboutthe steep drop off in stresses at the tip portion. Is this common? Theonly experience have in evaluating data of this type is that which isfound in Garrison and Cattanach. The stress curves in these sourcesseem drastically different in nature. Another item i found interesting, was the zig-zag portion of the curvesfound in(what I assume to be) the butt section of Cattanachs 6332 andthe Payne 7'9". If anyone could give me an expalnation of this designtheory it would be most appriciated. Thanks in advance, Chris Maxfield from harsha@aros.net Mon Sep 8 20:19:48 1997 Subject: Hexrod program Could someone please send me the URL for the hexrod program that wasmentioned recently in rodmakers. Thanks in advance, Mike Harsha from plipton@sunvalley.net Mon Sep 8 21:49:55 1997 (208.14.167.14) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Terry: Where can I purchase Melurac 400? Thanks,Phil On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Terry,I use Melurac 400 it is a formaldehyde ahesive fotified with melamine.It is more heat proof that urac and also more moisture proof. It is athermoset adhesive and requires an oven to cure it. This has theadvantage of almost unlimited open time, so there is no rush to glue up. After gluing up the sections can be wiped with a wet cloth to removesqueeze out then straightened and cooked. The sections do not have tobecooked straight away, 24 hr I think is the max time.When the adhesive is cured the cord can be removed and very littlesanding is req because all the adhesive has been removed with the wetrag.Curing temp is 280f max and cures in about 10 mins.I would not recommend this adhesive to everyone, some guys takeperversepleasure in scraping away at epoxy. 'It cannot be a good rod unless 60hrs was spent on it' types should not use it.The uvver Terryps do not think of the computer desk when you think of melamine. itdoes not cure to that type of plastic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726- 9559, 208-622-8585 Fax 208-726- 0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Sep 8 22:01:43 1997 Subject: Re: Dickerson Beveler Al Bellinger is starting to make a mill - I know of a couple beingdelivered to members of the list - I'm sure we'll hear comments as timegoeson. I talked with him on Labor Day he will be off to The Fly Tackle DealersShow for a week or so. Al's phone # is 503-371-6151 from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep 8 22:58:07 1997 ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Agates for Casting rod needed Mike, it that the same as the red agateen guides offered in the '97Angler's Workshop catalog? Page seven has the hand made nickel silverguides for .205" and .230" I.D. The price is listed as $27.95! Wow! Hopethis helps. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:29 AM 9/8/97 -0400, you wrote:Hello, I have found a nice bamboo casting rod which is diamond wrapped fulllengthand in nice condition except for missing the two agate guides whichshould be on the rod shaft. The agte tip top appears to be from the 20's or30's and is of round wire construction. I would like to buy two wireframeagates suitable for this rod. One would need to be somewhat large and theother smaller. I have several large saltwater clamp-on agates which appear to be fromthe20's or 30's and are very nice. Will trade or sell if someone needs orwants them. I also have several bamboo project rods which I will not get to, for sale.Several Heddons included. Email if interested in a list. Thanks, Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307CEffort PA 18330 610 681 5670 mstevens@ptdprolog.net Stevens Sight & Tool CoMaker of fine sights for antique single shot target rifles Collector of Heddon and other bamboo flyrods and casting rods. HeddonRiverRunt Spooks and Coxe baitcasting reels. from daryllw@ricochet.net Tue Sep 9 00:30:00 1997 AAA14509 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:30:40 - Subject: Agate guides for baitcaster I have many agate and agateen guides and tip tops. If you want twosimiliar to what I have seen on the Heddon type baitcaster I willsend you a couple. The frame is slightly different than on thestripping guide for fly rods. The baitcaster ones are sort of flattenedwhere the ring is sodered to the frame on the sides. What color andsize do you want. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 9 06:52:55 1997 Subject: Re: Tom Smithwick John - Here I am. I got the glue off the rod and everything looks prettygood. In a hurry now, will send more later from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Sep 9 09:52:22 1997 Subject: Re: Hexrod program Mike -If you are looking for a copy to run on your machine I can forward it toyou - If you want to test the net version start with the webmeister JerryFoster's excellent page -http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index/htmThere are (2) versions that I wrote floating around - math wise they areboth the same - the latest titled Hex97C addresses saving and loadingtapersto file (hard or floppy) - looking ahead there will be a new beta version inor around Janurary.A while back I posted the original code and some have adapted that tospread sheet to incorporate graphing functions - al be it - I saw a printoutin june that someone was having a bit of a code error with. Gee I hate thatwhen it happens. WayneCasnovia,MI http:/members.aol.com/index.html Maker's Rod 98http:/members.aol.com/bambooOne/index/htm from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Tue Sep 9 10:57:58 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) 04/19/90) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Terry, Thanks for the advice.I'm thinking to try some "temporary oven" with a heat gun, nothing verysophisticated, does it work?Sergio On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Sergio, you must have the heat To cure Melurac. Urac 185 cures without heat butyou have to work fast or to get a lumpy glue line. Even this adhesiveworks better with a little heat.Terry from "colours@javanet.com"@javanet.com Tue Sep 9 11:30:54 1997 pos-srv4100.javanet.com (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id MAA03139 for Subject: unsubscribe rodmakers Enjoy your group, but it's not my main focus. Will join again when Ican concentrate on cane more. Thanks,Dave Canton from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Sep 9 11:51:04 1997 Subject: Re: Cane!! Help Nathan -Perhaps I can be of help - as the crow flies I'm just across the pond. Ican supply a couple culms while everyone awaits the new shipments - Ifinterested please e-mail off list. Waynecasnovia,MI from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Sep 9 13:29:06 1997 NAA08788 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:29:03 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id NAA25880 for ; Subject: Re: glue tests Last spring I emailed Jeff Pitcher of Custom-Pak adhesives aboutheat treating urea resin glue and also about the suitability of melamine fortified urea for rod building. Custom-Pak suppliesmelamine urea, but I don't know whether its in the small 5-lb tubs like their ordinary urea glue. Here is Jeff's answer, for what its worth.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: Re: Urea resin questions Frank, Thank you for your email. To answer your questions; yes, the urea resincanbe heat set. The benefit to this is decreased clamp time. For every 10degrees you raise the temperature above 90 F you cut the clamp time inhalfup to a max of around 275 F. You may also experience a higher degree ofwater resistance, although probably not significant enough to make adifference. Melamine urea is commonly used in the plywood industry. It isurea resin with added melamine. The draw back to this is that it isneccessary to heat it to get the proper bond. Without large hot presses andother production equipment it's not a very practicle adhesive to use. Hopethis helps.....Regards,Jeff Pitcher from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Sep 9 13:50:46 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue,9 Sep 1997 14:50:41 EDT Subject: Frank Armbruster Does anyone know if he is around. I tried e-mailing him and left a voicemessage bu I have not heard anything. Just wondering. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 9 15:15:37 1997 (205.236.248.93) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Philip Lipton wrote: Terry: Where can I purchase Melurac 400? Thanks,Phil On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Terry,I use Melurac 400 it is a formaldehyde ahesive fotified withmelamine.It is more heat proof that urac and also more moisture proof. Itis athermoset adhesive and requires an oven to cure it. This has theadvantage of almost unlimited open time, so there is no rush toglue up. After gluing up the sections can be wiped with a wet cloth toremovesqueeze out then straightened and cooked. The sections do not haveto becooked straight away, 24 hr I think is the max time.When the adhesive is cured the cord can be removed and verylittlesanding is req because all the adhesive has been removed with thewetrag.Curing temp is 280f max and cures in about 10 mins.I would not recommend this adhesive to everyone, some guys takeperversepleasure in scraping away at epoxy. 'It cannot be a good rodunless 60hrs was spent on it' types should not use it.The uvver Terryps do not think of the computer desk when you think of melamine.itdoes not cure to that type of plastic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726- 9559, 208-622-8585 Fax 208-726- 0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Phil,It is manufactured by American Cyanamid. It is not a new adhesive so ithas a well documented performance over the long run.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 9 15:31:37 1997 (205.236.248.93) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Sergio Hiroshi Ishikawa wrote: Terry, Thanks for the advice.I'm thinking to try some "temporary oven" with a heat gun, nothingverysophisticated, does it work?Sergio On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Sergio, you must have the heat To cure Melurac. Urac 185 cures without heatbutyou have to work fast or to get a lumpy glue line. Even thisadhesiveworks better with a little heat.Terry Sergio,sure it should work. Get a length of thin wall tubing 6 in dia, thetype used in forced air central heating systems. Lag the tube withglass fiber then insert the heat gun and perhaps lag the gap around thegun with fiber. I would not play the heat directly on the cane. alsodrill a couple of holes along the length of the tube and check thetemperature making sure not to exceed 280f while the adhesive is curing,After it is cured it will withstand any temp. Terry from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Tue Sep 9 16:35:24 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) 04/19/90) Subject: Re: Frank Armbruster Jon,Sometimes he travel becauses of his business. Probably in a couple of daysyou are going to get his call. Leave your telephone number in his answermachine, it works fast.Cordially,Sergio On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Jon Lintvet wrote: Does anyone know if he is around. I tried e-mailing him and left a voicemessage bu I have not heard anything. Just wondering. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Tue Sep 9 16:41:24 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) 04/19/90) Subject: Re: Tests of Glues Terry,Thank you very much for the suggestions, I really appreciated.Well after all this done I think I'll try your recipe of glue.NHAM NHAM NHAM!Sergio On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Sergio Hiroshi Ishikawa wrote: Terry, Thanks for the advice.I'm thinking to try some "temporary oven" with a heat gun, nothingverysophisticated, does it work?Sergio On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Sergio, you must have the heat To cure Melurac. Urac 185 cures without heatbutyou have to work fast or to get a lumpy glue line. Even thisadhesiveworks better with a little heat.Terry Sergio,sure it should work. Get a length of thin wall tubing 6 in dia, thetype used in forced air central heating systems. Lag the tube withglass fiber then insert the heat gun and perhaps lag the gap around thegun with fiber. I would not play the heat directly on the cane. alsodrill a couple of holes along the length of the tube and check thetemperature making sure not to exceed 280f while the adhesive iscuring,After it is cured it will withstand any temp. Terry from MasjC1@aol.com Tue Sep 9 17:47:53 1997 Subject: Re: Frank Armbruster Jon, Yes, Frank is still around. I just received planing and roughing forms fromhim. Total elapsed time about 2 weeks. His E-mail is bootstrap@earthlink.net Mark ColeHouston, TxLeadville, CO from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Sep 9 21:51:05 1997 Subject: Re: Line Weights Brian,I'm. not going to address whether or not you have a "spine". Obviouslyyou're getting a jump when you roll the section. If your jump is due to oneor two weak flats then it would seem to me to be better to try a lighterline. If your sections are stiffer than they should be then you will have totry a heavier line. When I design a rod for a certain line weight and actionI always try at least 3 line wghts.before labelling the rod for a specificline. Heat treatment, variations in each of the strips, glues, finish, etc.all help determine rod action and line wgt.Hope this helps(confuses?- :-) ),Hank. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Sep 10 08:30:14 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,10 Sep 1997 09:30:09 EDT Subject: Ferrule Placement sections, in my case, three, were labled. I was looking in the taperarchive the other day and noticed that all the tapers had just one row ofnumbers. This may be a silly question, but how do you decide where theferrules go and is there any additional support needed like George Maurerspoke about. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Sep 10 09:48:58 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id KAA21308 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Line Weights What do you mean when you say I may have a "spine." I guess I don'tunderstand exactly what that means. But, as far as the line weights go,that makes sense. Thanks. Brian -----Original Message-----From: FISHWOOL@aol.com [SMTP:FISHWOOL@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 1997 10:50 PM Subject: Re: Line Weights Brian,I'm. not going to address whether or not you have a "spine".Obviouslyyou're getting a jump when you roll the section. If your jump is dueto oneor two weak flats then it would seem to me to be better to try alighterline. If your sections are stiffer than they should be then you willhave totry a heavier line. When I design a rod for a certain line weight andactionI always try at least 3 line wghts.before labelling the rod for aspecificline. Heat treatment, variations in each of the strips, glues, finish,etc.all help determine rod action and line wgt.Hope this helps(confuses?- :-) ),Hank. from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Wed Sep 10 10:21:51 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA230 for ;Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:25:54 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000A6BD; Wed, 10 Sep 9710:40:34 -0500 Subject: Rod/Line Wt Questions I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations of long and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/construction standpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. The question popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5' 8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room before my next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down on the weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probably get some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Sep 10 10:40:42 1997 0600 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions eric.koehler wrote: I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitationsoflong and heavy split cane rods. Not from astructural/constructionstandpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing allday. Thequestion popped into my head the other day as I was casting a9.5'8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to havefun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight roombeforemy next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut downonthe weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around.(Probablyget some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck Eric I darned near wore off my right arm casting an 8 1/2 8 wt Crossdouble built for sttelhead. Never again. My idea and yours I think isthat when it gets to be work it is no longer fun. I even quit buildingrods over 8' a number of years ago, fist because they are too much workto cast, and second, I never found a taper I liked. Suit the weapon tothe prey; if you must cast those heavy wt lines and big bugs in heavywind, use graphite for the weight factor, but on a little stream on ahot summer day wor 10" brooks don't use an elephant gun. That is wherebamboo comes into its own.Ralph from aa0rq@juno.com Wed Sep 10 10:45:28 1997 11:45:00 EDT Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Hello,Sounds like the reality of heavy rods lodged themselves deep intoyour bone. You already have the answer. I refinished a 9'6" rod and useit in a belly boat for bass fishing and even troll with it in warm waterwhile in my canoe. I usually fish streams with a 7' or my favorite roda 6'6" rod built on Cattanck tappers and often with a 7'6" garrisontapper I built up. I just like shorter rods and do a lot of sneakingaround for those native trout here in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Thelong rod I have was never ment to cast a dry fly and was fished inMontana on big water ...that is my guess. Bill/ Stockton,Ca from tfinger@services.state.mo.us Wed Sep 10 11:11:52 1997 services.state.mo.us (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA10164 for Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric Koehler wrote:I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations of long and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/construction standpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. The question popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5' 8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room before my next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down on the weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probably get some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck Eric:I don't have any rods quite as big as the one you were using, but I regularly use 8- to 9-foot, 7- to 8-weight cane rods for bass on small streams. Personally I find carrying a few extra ounces much less tiring than the rapid whiplash motion necessary to try to get too-stiff graphite to bend, especially on short casts. Some random thoughts: 1. In the small bass streams I fish I'm casting relatively big flies (#1 to #2) but I'm usually making short casts (30 to 40 feet). Graphite just doesn't load well for me under these conditions, but a good 7- or 8-weight cane rod casts a big fly with little effort. Where long casts are required all day long (saltwater, salmon, steelhead, etc.) graphite probably has more merit, although it's still not very pretty to look at. 2. The rods must be of good quality; poor rods of any size can be tiring to cast. My rods are all old, and some of the old makers really knew how to make a good, big rod. 3. Probably because of the influence of graphite, I see many anglers using reels that I would consider too small and light for a cane rod. A slightly heavier reel moves the balance point of the rod toward the reel and makes the rod feel lighter when casting. Clearly, cane is at its best in smaller rods, but the larger ones can be nice, too. Hope this helps, Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 10 11:25:21 1997 Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:24:45 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Ralph W Moon wrote: eric.koehler wrote: I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitationsoflong and heavy split cane rods. Not from astructural/constructionstandpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing allday. Thequestion popped into my head the other day as I was casting a9.5'8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to havefun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight roombeforemy next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut downonthe weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around.(Probablyget some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck Eric I darned near wore off my right arm casting an 8 1/2 8 wt Crossdouble built for sttelhead. Never again. My idea and yours I think isthat when it gets to be work it is no longer fun. I even quit buildingrods over 8' a number of years ago, fist because they are too much workto cast, and second, I never found a taper I liked. Suit the weapon tothe prey; if you must cast those heavy wt lines and big bugs in heavywind, use graphite for the weight factor, but on a little stream on ahot summer day wor 10" brooks don't use an elephant gun. That is wherebamboo comes into its own.Ralph That's about the extent of it.Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Wed Sep 10 11:57:03 1997 09:56:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric: I note that from Bob Corsetti's rod lists there's a fellow named (Jerry?)Burnside that's making rods for bass fishing. The one rod I've seen listedisa 8'6" 2 pc for 8/9 line. Maybe you can get in touch with him throughCorsetti (whose phone number is 603.886.0411). Terry's comment on getting a heavy enough rell to balance the rod is rightontarget. Old Medalists and Hardy Uniquas are two good ones to consider. --Rich ------------------------------ Eric Koehler wrote:I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations of long and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/construction standpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. The question popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5' 8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room before my next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down on the weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probably get some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck Eric:I don't have any rods quite as big as the one you were using, but Iregularly use 8- to 9-foot, 7- to 8-weight cane rods for bass on small streams. Personally I find carrying a few extra ounces much less tiring than the rapid whiplash motion necessary to try to get too-stiff graphite to bend, especially on short casts. Some random thoughts: 1. In the small bass streams I fish I'm casting relatively big flies (#1 to #2) but I'm usually making short casts (30 to 40 feet). Graphite just doesn't load well for me under these conditions, but a good 7- or 8-weight cane rod casts a big fly with little effort. Where long casts are required all day long (saltwater, salmon, steelhead, etc.) graphite probably has more merit, although it's still not very pretty to look at. 2. The rods must be of good quality; poor rods of any size can be tiring to cast. My rods are all old, and some of the old makers really knew how to make a good, big rod. 3. Probably because of the influence of graphite, I see many anglers using reels that I would consider too small and light for a cane rod. A slightly heavier reel moves the balance point of the rod toward the reel and makes the rod feel lighter when casting. Clearly, cane is at its best in smaller rods, but the larger ones can be nice, too. Hope this helps, Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.us ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 09:18:46-0700 services.state.mo.us(8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA10164 for ;Wed, 10 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 10 13:53:17 1997 Subject: Re: stress curve questions In a message dated 97-09-09 03:52:13 EDT, you write: Also, I was wondering aboutthe steep drop off in stresses at the tip portion. Is this common? Theonly experience have in evaluating data of this type is that which isfound in Garrison and Cattanach. The stress curves in these sourcesseem drastically different in nature. Garrison derived his stress curves from plotting a stress curve that he thought would be the action he wanted, then deriving the taper diameters from the stress curves. The stress curves on Jerry's page are plotted from the "other way", that is the taper exists and the stresses are calculated from them. If you get deeply into the calculations you will see a (I don't know thecorrect term for it, but I call it a) leverage term. That is a factor that ismultiplied to the stress number with the tip being the zero point. So,you see, if you take the stress number and multipy the distance fromthe tip leverage factor, at the tip it is multiplied by zero. an inch fromthetip it is multiplied by one, two inches from the tip it is multiplied by 2.etc.This can be demonstrated as being reflected in real life by taking your rod tip section, putting your finger on the very tip, holding the base, andbending it down. Look at the first few inches. It will be straight. Another item i found interesting, was the zig-zag portion of the curvesfound in(what I assume to be) the butt section of Cattanachs 6332 andthe Payne 7'9". If anyone could give me an expalnation of this designtheory it would be most appriciated. I think this is an artifact of the way it was calculated. The plots I did ofthese curves don't have the zigzag section. The rest of the curve matchesmy plots. The section by the handle is much less important (I didn't sayunimportant!) so I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you draw a linethrough the middle of the zigzags that's where the actual action will be. Sir Darryl(Darryl Hayashida) from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 10 15:44:36 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA17868; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:44:34 - 0400 Subject: Re: Dickerson Beveler Wayne. Last Friday I helped John Zimny unpack his mill. As one wouldexpect from Al and Jeff Bellinger the mill is first class and of highquality. from our first going over it is a Dickerson style mill withmany improvements and safety enhancements. A video comes along withthe mill that provides good instruction. It is definately for the seriousrodmaker and should save a lot of effort. The templates that comewith it are a basic straight taper (.003 per in) and you get blanks to makeanother. The templates are maple stock and easily made. They have animprovedclip to hold the strip and an excellant height adjustment with the dialindicator positioned directly under the cutting head so you have adirect measurement rather than offset. The carriage pulls througheasily. I will let John update you when he is finished pulling a fewstrips through his new "toy".Al only reccomends that you leave .020" above final dimensionand finish the strip in your planing form - however it has beenreported that you "could" go to final dimension - depends on yourrodmaking objectives. WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Al Bellinger is starting to make a mill - I know of a couple beingdelivered to members of the list - I'm sure we'll hear comments as timegoeson. I talked with him on Labor Day he will be off to The Fly TackleDealersShow for a week or so. Al's phone # is 503-371-6151 from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 10 15:57:35 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA20355; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:57:32 - 0400 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric I just happen to have and use just such a big dog rod. I find that onceyou learn to let the rod work for you rather than you work for the rod itbecomesvery easy to use. I like to use this rod to reach out and touch some fish soIam picking upand laying out 70'+ of line with minimal effort. I work less with this rodthan comparable graphite rods and can out cast them for distance. Ilearnedsome good techniques from Per Brandon at the last Corbett Lake gatheringthat solved the issue you are talking about. Giving casting instructionsremotely is hard to do but just try keep your elbow in, lift the rod quicklyto 12:00 and then back to 10:00. It is a short sweet stroke but I can blowline past an 8wt Sage with apparent no effort.I had this rod at Grayrock two years ago and we played around with it. Agood caster (Leon Hansen) could take the rod and go 30' into the backingwhilecasting into a head wind coming up the AuSable. So much for the myththatbamboo has no power. Chris eric.koehler wrote: I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations oflong and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/constructionstandpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. Thequestion popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5'8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on aroutine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room beforemy next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down onthe weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probablyget some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Sep 10 16:41:01 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-39971U10000L10000S0)with SMTP id AAA281 for ;Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:35:23 -0500 Subject: sharpening & two other questions List, I've been lurking in the background of this list for some time, andnowI'm in the process of tooling up to build my first rod. I've decided tobuild my planing forms from wood, and I'm on my third try! Maybe I'llget it right this time. I've just received my first plane blade fromRon Hock, and got to thinking about ways to sharpen it. I know awaterstone has many advantages, and I'll probably go ahead and purchaseone. But I've jsut about tapped the budget out for this month, and it'sonly the 10th! In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and evenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron?Also, and I know this is more of a computer question than arodbuildingquestion: I've been trying to access several of the drawings in therodmakers page. When I do, they are far too large to print on myHewlett Packard 6p without taking up several pages. Any suggestions?Finally, I'm looking for some can to get started with. I expect asteep learning curve, and don't want to mess up good cane inexperimenting. Can any of you suggest a source for cheap cane, or badcane, to use in experimentation. I'm in North Louisiana, but the way. I'll go the normal routes when I'm ready to get serious, but it lookslike getting good cane is very difficult right now. I wouldn't want towaste any good cane, some of you might make good rods from it.Thanks in advance. I've learned more from this list in the lastseveral months than any source other than Wayne's book and Garrison'sbook. Any ideas will be appreciated. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from Lloyd.Cross@clorox.com Wed Sep 10 17:35:53 1997 mail-oak-1.pilot.net with ESMTP id PAA14827 for (CEMS 5.01/1.37.109.14) id AA272101626; Wed, 10 Sep 199715:47:06 - 0700 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000BD05F; Wed, 10 Sep 9715:46:51 -0700 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions Harry, I'm "in the same boat" on several of these items too. 1) You can use fine sandpaper / glass to sharpen your Hock. It works great, no lapping of stones required. I finish with a very hard and flat piece of aluma ceramic, about 10000 grit. 2) If you have a Pier-1 imports store in town, check with them. I was able to buy a junky piece of cane for about $6.00. Several others on the list have reported similar results with both 1 and 2. L.D.CrossBlue River,Oregon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: sharpening & two other questionsAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at Internet List, I've been lurking in the background of this list for some time, andnowI'm in the process of tooling up to build my first rod. I've decided to build my planing forms from wood, and I'm on my third try! Maybe I'll get it right this time. I've just received my first plane blade from Ron Hock, and got to thinking about ways to sharpen it. I know a waterstone has many advantages, and I'll probably go ahead and purchase one. But I've jsut about tapped the budget out for this month, and it's only the 10th! In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware and Building Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and even finer. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper (wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work, or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron?Also, and I know this is more of a computer question than arodbuildingquestion: I've been trying to access several of the drawings in the rodmakers page. When I do, they are far too large to print on my Hewlett Packard 6p without taking up several pages. Any suggestions?Finally, I'm looking for some can to get started with. I expect asteep learning curve, and don't want to mess up good cane in experimenting. Can any of you suggest a source for cheap cane, or bad cane, to use in experimentation. I'm in North Louisiana, but the way. I'll go the normal routes when I'm ready to get serious, but it looks like getting good cane is very difficult right now. I wouldn't want to waste any good cane, some of you might make good rods from it.Thanks in advance. I've learned more from this list in the lastseveral months than any source other than Wayne's book and Garrison's book. Any ideas will be appreciated. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from aa0rq@juno.com Wed Sep 10 17:40:09 1997 18:37:03 EDT Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Chris Bogart:How are you? Bill Hensel back on E mail (AA0RQ@juno.com) . Wellput...biomechanics is a very important component in casting. Applyingforce over time through proper angles is what needs to be discovered bythe caster. Some people have muscle memory sense and can remember thefeeling without understanding the mechanics and therefore adapt to a rodvery fast. Natural athletes they are called.Heres a concept I thought of the other day. Ones castingimproves to a degree when one builds a rod because of the mental thoughtregarding how a rod stores potential energy and then releases that energycalled kinetic energy. One starts to visualize all aspects of the cast. Damn this hobby is radical and I get so stoked on it...remember the hippydays and trying to rid the perfect wave. You know I just thought ofsomething...I was in love with pole vaulting 30 years ago and remembergoing into the high school physics teacher and asking him to explain whatwas occurring in the sport of pole vaulting....darn near the same thing.Give me your E mail address and thanks for the letters...hopethings slowed down for you a little this summer. Regards, Bill Hensel /Stockton, Ca( where they kill each other everyday from montana4@bright.net Wed Sep 10 20:10:13 1997 sparticus.bright.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/FNG) with SMTP id VAA01554 for Subject: Signoff instructions?. Looking for sign off instructions from "rodmakers" . Have tried acouple of times, with no apparent luck. Thanks, PDK. from rkovalak@bright.net Wed Sep 10 21:00:32 1997 sparticus.bright.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/FNG) with SMTP id VAA22531 for Subject: Final Planing Form Design Wayne C., In the Jan 97 archive you stated that you had made some design changesto the final planing form design that you presented in your book. CouldI impose on you for details of these changes either by reply or throughdrawings? Thanks.-- Ron KovalakEmail: rkovalak@bright.net from jfoster@gte.net Wed Sep 10 21:37:07 1997 Subject: Re: stress curve questions Chris the waves in the stress were as sir D and the honerable Wayne point outwas an error in the program i was using to derive the taper.. that hasbeen corrected and is now in proper form .. I just haven't updated thepage with the new graph yet..I will.. Darryl's synopsis was correct,however, just visualize a curve thru the wiggle. Jerry from jfoster@gte.net Wed Sep 10 21:37:09 1997 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions Harry One of the other questions.. download the file.. should be a gif..openit with a decent graphics program " photoshop" etc. or gif converter andscale it down to a workable ( printable ) size. Jerry from jfoster@gte.net Wed Sep 10 21:37:10 1997 Subject: Re: Hexrod program Wayne Code fixedJer from lblan@oeonline.com Wed Sep 10 22:11:27 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0x8zS9-0003VsC; Wed, 10 Sep 97 22:57 EDT Subject: Re: stress curve questions I must admit , however that the variances in scale can be quite confusing. If you can run the hexrod.xls program, it is possible to set the dimensions compare the graphs on the same scale. It is also possible to graph both thestress curve and the dimension curve on one chart. Another item i found interesting, was the zig-zag portion of the curvesfound in(what I assume to be) the butt section of Cattanachs 6332 andthe Payne 7'9". If anyone could give me an expalnation of this designtheory it would be most appriciated. We took a look at this phenomenon in Grayling this year. There appears tobesomething in hexrod.xls that isn't dealing with a rod length which isn'tevenly divisible by two. The result is the oscillation you see in the tipsection. To observe the effect, if you have a copy of hexrod.xls, change therod length from 93" to 92" or 94" and re-calculate the stress graph. Theoscillations in the tip section graph disappear. You can also see the effectof the error by looking at the dimensions chart. You will notice that afterthe ferrule, on the 7'9" rod, the dimension for every other inch goes tozero. I've exhausted my knowledge of vba looking at it, and can't find aproblem (of course, it only took about 2 minutes to exhaust myknowledge). from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 10 22:32:14 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27472 for Subject: Re: Signoff instructions?. P. D. Kukay wrote: Looking for sign off instructions from "rodmakers" . Have tried acouple of times, with no apparent luck. Thanks, PDK. go to the rodmakers web site. You will find the info there.-- Martin Jensen from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 10 23:28:19 1997 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions In a message dated 97-09-10 21:46:41 EDT, you write: In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and evenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron? Using fine sandpaper on a piece of glass to sharpen a plane iron worksvery well. Use rubber cement to stick the paper on the glass so youcan peel it off when the sandpaper wears out. I saw an article on howto do it in a woodworking magazine a long time ago. Sir D(Darryl Hayashida) from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Sep 10 23:41:34 1997 Subject: Re: Final Planing Form Design Ron - Two night ago I tried loading Coreldraw 7 and mid way I hit a read erroroff the CD - I would love to send you the new drawings BUT I am leaving couple of weeks which I hope there will be a replacement CD to solve theproblem - The idea is a copy of the way the suppliers make them now - adowelpin is used through both sides of the forms - the to one side a bolt is usedto draw the forms together and to the other side of the dowel pin is asetscrew that when tightened will push the forms apart Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Sep 10 23:42:21 1997 Subject: Re: stress curve questions Chris -The zig zag of the 6' 3" taper illustrates a couple of distinctpreformances. First imagine a reversed 'J' - the taper shows this in ageneral form - this characteristic has been termed a parabolic - cautionneeds to be used because of how many have been educated with this term -foryears a parabolic has been thought of as a slow rod. This only occurs whenyou have a low amplitude ( ratio of high stress #'s to low stress #'s. The6'3" curve ( they are all based on the same curve #2 - #3 - #4) has a higheramplitude than say a Garrison ( compare the high and low values). Nowfollowthe description of a parabolic and envision the reversed 'J' - a soft tip(high stress value) with a stiff mid section (low stress vaslues) and asoftened butt section ( stress values rising).Now the squiggle( there should be only one) - over the years I saw thatrods that would roll cast well had A squiggle or hinges as I has come tocallthem. When roll casting the extra drag of the line to film contact makes itdifficult for a non hinged rod to develope the forward loop - because ofthehinge the rod will stall momentarily at the hinge as the energy passesthatpoint and then catapults forward - the stall allows slack to be formed intheline and the catapult then drives the line forward with the loop formed.Normally you will see this squiggle at about 20" from the hand - too farforward the line drives downward - too far back the line will climb.Becauseof my style of fishing a rod MUST rod cast and it needs to shoot line aswell. Beside the tapers listed in the book for the #3 & #4 weight linesthereare also tapers for a #2 weight and a combinition three piece rod for a #2and #4 on one butt section - I'm quite sure that Jerry our Webmeisterextrodinaire has them in the archives. Wayne from al31@westsound.com Thu Sep 11 00:59:17 1997 WAA02500 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:59:31-0700 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions I am new to this group and noticed your questions on sharpening. I havenot tooledup to build rods yet but as an experienced carpenter and wood carver I cantell yousand paper won't the job on your plane blades. You will be far ahead of thegameto just wait till next month to get a good stone. Try garage sales in yourareaalso.Jim Olds Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: List, I've been lurking in the background of this list for some time, andnowI'm in the process of tooling up to build my first rod. I've decided tobuild my planing forms from wood, and I'm on my third try! Maybe I'llget it right this time. I've just received my first plane blade fromRon Hock, and got to thinking about ways to sharpen it. I know awaterstone has many advantages, and I'll probably go ahead and purchaseone. But I've jsut about tapped the budget out for this month, and it'sonly the 10th! In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and evenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron?Also, and I know this is more of a computer question than arodbuildingquestion: I've been trying to access several of the drawings in therodmakers page. When I do, they are far too large to print on myHewlett Packard 6p without taking up several pages. Any suggestions?Finally, I'm looking for some can to get started with. I expect asteep learning curve, and don't want to mess up good cane inexperimenting. Can any of you suggest a source for cheap cane, or badcane, to use in experimentation. I'm in North Louisiana, but the way.I'll go the normal routes when I'm ready to get serious, but it lookslike getting good cane is very difficult right now. I wouldn't want towaste any good cane, some of you might make good rods from it.Thanks in advance. I've learned more from this list in the lastseveral months than any source other than Wayne's book and Garrison'sbook. Any ideas will be appreciated. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from cparham@crocker.com Thu Sep 11 07:26:54 1997 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-10 21:46:41 EDT, you write: In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and evenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron? Using fine sandpaper on a piece of glass to sharpen a plane iron worksvery well. Use rubber cement to stick the paper on the glass so youcan peel it off when the sandpaper wears out. I saw an article on howto do it in a woodworking magazine a long time ago. Sir D(Darryl Hayashida) Also try just water to hold the sandpaper to the glass. Use a full sheet of paper and run the sharpening guide on the paper. Place the glass in an old cookie sheet to contain the slurry and keep your work bench clean. Add water as you need it. Use single sheet (flat) paper and avoid paper which has been rolled as this will round the edge of the plane blade. I've used this method for years. from s.wang@cummins.com Thu Sep 11 07:48:50 1997 07:47:43 -0500 smap (3.2) (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/04Mar96-1128AM) 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: Signoff instructions?. P. D. Kukay wrote: Looking for sign off instructions from "rodmakers" . Have tried acouple of times, with no apparent luck. Thanks, PDK. PDK:To sign off from the list, e-mail to listproc@wugate.wustl.edu. Noticethis is different from rodmakers' address. In the mail body, just type"signoff RODMAKERS" or "unsubscribe RODMAKERS". This should do for you.-- Simon T. C. Wang s.wang@cummins.comSoftware Engineer Cummins Engine Company, Inc. http://www.cummins.com4080 West Jonathan Moore PikeCMC-7003, WestHill PlazaColumbus, IN 47201 Tel: (812)377-7632Fax: (812)377-1110 from rmoon@dns.ida.net Thu Sep 11 08:54:37 1997 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions SalarFly@AOL.COM wrote: In a message dated 97-09-10 21:46:41 EDT, you write: In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, andevenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would itwork,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron? Using fine sandpaper on a piece of glass to sharpen a plane iron works very well. Use rubber cement to stick the paper on the glass so youcan peel it off when the sandpaper wears out. I saw an article on howto do it in a woodworking magazine a long time ago. Sir D(Darryl Hayashida) There is a FAQ on this procedure somewhere on the net, but since mycomputer crashed I no longer have the reference. It works well. I usewet or dry and begin with relatively coarse grits and finish on 1500.Works fine for me and a lot less expensive than waterstonesRalph Moon from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 11 09:52:17 1997 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: ferrules Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardware storesand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brass tubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about 1/16inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the next largersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heat andretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering if anyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback I cansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule. I haveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done for otherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size of mating canbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of using thesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from cbogart@shentel.net Thu Sep 11 10:27:44 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA15276; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:27:36 - 0400 Subject: Re: stress curve questions Jerry I thought you just used cheap imported cane or worse - graphite andthat was the result! Chris Jerry Foster wrote: Chris the waves in the stress were as sir D and the honerable Wayne point outwas an error in the program i was using to derive the taper.. that hasbeen corrected and is now in proper form .. I just haven't updated thepage with the new graph yet..I will.. Darryl's synopsis was correct,however, just visualize a curve thru the wiggle. Jerry from mrj@seanet.com Thu Sep 11 11:53:52 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14934 for Subject: Re: ferrules Onis Cogburn wrote: Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardware storesand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brasstubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about 1/16inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the next largersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heat andretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering if anyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback I cansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule. I haveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done for otherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size of matingcanbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of using thesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com In regards to making ferrules out of brass stock from a hobby store.The tolerances in the slip fit as you mention of the different sizetubes would be way way way too much for a ferrule. Ferrules have a fitof probably less than a thousand of an inch. Your hobby stock fit mostlikely borders on at least ten to twenty thousands of an inch clearance.This would be totally unacceptable. Nickel silver ferrules are about $40.00 a crack. Yes a lot of money. Youcan get inexpensive ferrules that would be aluminum or nickel platedbrass for only a few dollars a piece. Literally only a few dollars, like$3.00 maybe. These cheap ferrules would be light years ahead of anyferrule that you could make using the method you have described. Theseyou can get at a good rod building store or some mail order houses.Using hobby stock your ferrules would lead to a broken rod joint or atthe very least a broken ferrule in very short order. The time requiredto make a decent ferrule with the hobby stock would not warrant theeffort.I'm sorry if I don't sound too diplomatic in my response but I reallyfeel strongly on this and would hate to see you spend God knows how manyhours to plane and build a rod and then put home made ferrules on itthat would take probably an hour of two to construct in the very leastand would not last and in fact would probably have to be taped togetherin order to even work at all. The cheap (spell that inexpensive)ferrules I mentioned would give you years of service and again, onlycost a few dollars. -- Martin Jensen from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Sep 11 13:01:57 1997 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric and Chris,I believe Chris is correct-let the rod work for you-if it is well balancedwith its reel it should cast easily. I built an 8', 3 piece for a 7or 8 linethat with a #7 line I could false cast 120' (about 30' into the backing). Itwas not underlined as it cast well and accurately at15'-20'. It was hollowbuilt on a straight taper.Unfortunately I've not been able to duplicate it precisely-the 5subsequent rods were close and acceptable but not as great-I use onequiteoften and will try to duplicate it when I finish some other "experiments".Hank. from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 11 14:19:13 1997 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: ferrules I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question is stillunanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsdaily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement on a hobbylevel if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy to bring thediameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and the chemicalsare available in virtually every hardware store. The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I will save anymoney(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost of saltstofinish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheap andsometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. Silver platingis simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I would justpay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I am a seniorlevel engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, based on whatI am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost of eventhe best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the rod doesbreak. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't trying anything new. The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher, Ihaven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While I couldhave done a little research and found the answer myself, I value theexperience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason formyquestion. Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyprotection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theway I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but not youropinion. Again thanks for the reply. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:53 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote:Onis Cogburn wrote: Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardware storesand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brasstubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about 1/16inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the next largersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heat andretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering if anyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback Icansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule. I haveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done for otherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size of matingcanbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of usingthesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com In regards to making ferrules out of brass stock from a hobby store.The tolerances in the slip fit as you mention of the different sizetubes would be way way way too much for a ferrule. Ferrules have a fitof probably less than a thousand of an inch. Your hobby stock fit mostlikely borders on at least ten to twenty thousands of an inch clearance.This would be totally unacceptable. Nickel silver ferrules are about $40.00 a crack. Yes a lot of money. Youcan get inexpensive ferrules that would be aluminum or nickel platedbrass for only a few dollars a piece. Literally only a few dollars, like$3.00 maybe. These cheap ferrules would be light years ahead of anyferrule that you could make using the method you have described. Theseyou can get at a good rod building store or some mail order houses.Using hobby stock your ferrules would lead to a broken rod joint or atthe very least a broken ferrule in very short order. The time requiredto make a decent ferrule with the hobby stock would not warrant theeffort.I'm sorry if I don't sound too diplomatic in my response but I reallyfeel strongly on this and would hate to see you spend God knows howmanyhours to plane and build a rod and then put home made ferrules on itthat would take probably an hour of two to construct in the very leastand would not last and in fact would probably have to be taped togetherin order to even work at all. The cheap (spell that inexpensive)ferrules I mentioned would give you years of service and again, onlycost a few dollars. -- Martin Jensen from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 11 14:35:05 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules In a message dated 97-09-11 15:20:59 EDT, you write: Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyprotection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theway I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but not youropinion. Again thanks for the reply. Hobby store brass tubing isn't going to work. The tubing is too thinand will bend or crack after only a little use. If you have to make yourown use thick wall nickel silver tubing or machine it out of solid rod.Nickel silver tubing isn't that expensive. There is no real silver in nickelsilver. It is really a white brass alloy. The cost of NS ferrules, as in thecost of a split cane rod, is in the hand workmanship.They aren't crankedout by a machine. Sir D from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu Sep 11 14:59:12 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules RO>I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question isstillRO>unanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsRO>daily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement on ahobbyRO>level if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy to bringtheRO>diameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and thechemicalsRO>are available in virtually every hardware store. RO>The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I will save anyRO>money(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost ofsalts toRO>finish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheap andRO>sometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. SilverplatingRO>is simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I would justRO>pay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I am aseniorRO>level engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, based onwhatRO>I am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost of evenRO>the best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the rod doesRO>break. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't trying anythingnew. RO>The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher, IRO>haven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While IcouldRO>have done a little research and found the answer myself, I value theRO>experience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason RO>question. RO>Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyRO>protection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theRO>way I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but notyourRO>opinion. Again thanks for the reply. RO>Regards,RO>OnisRO>k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Why not just try to find some Nickel Silver tubing and save yourselfsome grief of working with brass. Don Burns from MiTiernan@aol.com Thu Sep 11 15:02:27 1997 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions The FAQ on sharpening that you are looking for is called The Scary SharpSystem or somthing to that effect. Progressively finer sand paper isgluedto a piece of glass and is used as a stone. I believe it can be found as alink from Ron Hock's page which is listed under tools in the Rod Makershomepage. Good Luck. Miles Tiernan from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 11 15:17:59 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement In a message dated 97-09-11 04:11:02 EDT, you write: This may be a silly question, but how do you decide where theferrules go and is there any additional support needed like GeorgeMaurerspoke about. The ferrules can go anywhere you want to put them, but I like tomake equal length sections. This protects the tip section whenthe rod is being put into the rod tube, etc. On the other hand, if you were concerned about the stiff unbendingferrule interfering with the action of the rod, I would put the ferruleas close to the handle as practical. I don't know what George Maurer said about additional support. Ifyou can elaborate, I can give my opinon... Sir Darryl from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Sep 11 15:27:37 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Onis Cogburn wrote: I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question is stillunanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsdaily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement on a hobbylevel if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy to bring thediameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and thechemicalsare available in virtually every hardware store. The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I will save anymoney(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost of saltstofinish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheap andsometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. Silverplatingis simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I would justpay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I am aseniorlevel engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, based onwhatI am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost of eventhe best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the rod doesbreak. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't trying anythingnew. The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher, Ihaven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While I couldhave done a little research and found the answer myself, I value theexperience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason formyquestion. Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyprotection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theway I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but not youropinion. Again thanks for the reply. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:53 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote:Onis Cogburn wrote: Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardware storesand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brasstubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about1/16 inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the nextlargersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heatandretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering ifanyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback Icansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule. Ihaveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done for otherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size of matingcanbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of usingthesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com In regards to making ferrules out of brass stock from a hobby store.The tolerances in the slip fit as you mention of the different sizetubes would be way way way too much for a ferrule. Ferrules have a fitof probably less than a thousand of an inch. Your hobby stock fit mostlikely borders on at least ten to twenty thousands of an inch clearance.This would be totally unacceptable.Nickel silver ferrules are about $40.00 a crack. Yes a lot of money. Youcan get inexpensive ferrules that would be aluminum or nickel platedbrass for only a few dollars a piece. Literally only a few dollars, like$3.00 maybe. These cheap ferrules would be light years ahead of anyferrule that you could make using the method you have described. Theseyou can get at a good rod building store or some mail order houses.Using hobby stock your ferrules would lead to a broken rod joint or atthe very least a broken ferrule in very short order. The time requiredto make a decent ferrule with the hobby stock would not warrant theeffort.I'm sorry if I don't sound too diplomatic in my response but I reallyfeel strongly on this and would hate to see you spend God knows howmanyhours to plane and build a rod and then put home made ferrules on itthat would take probably an hour of two to construct in the very leastand would not last and in fact would probably have to be taped togetherin order to even work at all. The cheap (spell that inexpensive)ferrules I mentioned would give you years of service and again, onlycost a few dollars.--Martin Jensen I suggest that you use nickel/silver as did the rod makers of old.John Zimny from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Sep 11 15:40:57 1997 Subject: Re: Re: ferrules In a message dated 9/11/97 7:20:59 PM, you wrote: Onis, Assuming the tubing is half hard you can expect tensiles in the 57-67, 000range and 42-60,000 on yield for brass. Corresponding numbers for 18%Nickelsilver are 66 - 80,000 tensile and 48-78,000 yield. Other standardtempersshow similar differences. I've done a lot of repair work, I have never seenasplit nickel silver ferrule that I recall. I have seen plenty of split Brassand plated brass ferrules. If you want to try it for the experience, goahead, but I tend to agree with those who are telling you to be careful. from jfoster@gte.net Thu Sep 11 16:17:24 1997 Subject: Re: stress curve questions Chris "Cheap" imported cane? Personally i prefer break cane found exclusively on sand bars in theL.A. River.(anything comming into the great nation of texas isconsidered imported) Jerry from jfoster@gte.net Thu Sep 11 16:20:11 1997 Subject: Re: stress curve questions Larry The current online version is fixed.. jerry from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Sep 11 16:49:20 1997 (8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15408 for ; Thu, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id VNVXBSBO; Thu,11 Sep 1997 16:48:43 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: stress curve questions Jer, Thats Texas with a capital T my friend, and don't you forget it! :)\ Don ------------------Original text Chris "Cheap" imported cane? Personally i prefer break cane found exclusively on sand bars in theL.A. River.(anything comming into the great nation of texas isconsidered imported) Jerry from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 11 17:00:24 1997 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: ferrules Thanks a bunch for the info; and thanks to everyone who responded. Germansilver is certainly more attractive; if I can find any that is. This isAustin, Texas; if it's not a horse and you can't eat or drink it, youprobably can't buy it. A couple of telephone calls exhausted the germansilver tubing possibilities here. I will have my daughter canvass theDallas area. If anyone can suggest a source, I would appreciate it. Bythe way, let's make sure we are all talking the same language. My linksshow german silver to be an alloy of copper, nickel and zinc; very similarto brass but with about 20% of the copper replaced with nickel. So far, I have three options; I can buy chrome plated brass ferrules, I canmake my own from the brass we have been discussing or I can bite thebulletand pay $40 to someone else to do what I would like to do. I don't likechrome plated brass and I don't have a source of raw materials for germansilver; yet. Given my past experience with the brass, I can build ferrules for my ownuse that will be superior both appearance and strength to the brassferrules I can buy. However brass does work harden and does have atendency to split. The wall is thick enough and the metal hard enough thatit won't fail by bending. By silver soldering (by the way, I mean REALsilver solder not the low percent tin/lead substitute), I can reinforce theferrule by adding small bands of a next larger tube. None of this solvesthe problem of work hardening however but if I cannot find german silvertubing, I will let you know if and when the ferrule fails. That will besome time from now however. I am building two short one piece rodsbeforeI get a chance to experiment with the ferrule. Again thanks for all theinput. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 04:40 PM 9/11/97 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 9/11/97 7:20:59 PM, you wrote: Onis, Assuming the tubing is half hard you can expect tensiles in the 57- 67,000range and 42-60,000 on yield for brass. Corresponding numbers for 18%Nickelsilver are 66 - 80,000 tensile and 48-78,000 yield. Other standardtempersshow similar differences. I've done a lot of repair work, I have never seenasplit nickel silver ferrule that I recall. I have seen plenty of split Brassand plated brass ferrules. If you want to try it for the experience, goahead, but I tend to agree with those who are telling you to be careful. from GLohkamp@aol.com Thu Sep 11 18:44:11 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules lf you want to make your own ferrules starting with brass tubing is not abad way to go . lts a good material to practice with before getting into thenickle silver tubing which is alot harder to work with. Finding nickle silver tubing in the right sizes can be a problem ,as youknow it requires three sizes of tubing to make one ferrule . You can getsoild n/s stock from a few sources but the mimmium order and shippingcanreally hurt the pocket. l prefer to use tubing as drilling and reaming the stock can get alittletime consuming. Try placing an ad on one of the fly fishing messageboards lbought 100 ft of tubing this way a couple months ago, maybe it will workagain. Also you could build from material that is easier to get such as delron(notsure of the spelling ) but close enough . This alloy has been used by rodbuilders in the past with sucess , it has a nice gold color and machineswell. l picked up 12 ft of 5\8s stock for less than 6 bucks , made a fewferrules from it seems ok... Hope something here helps you Gary from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Sep 11 19:45:28 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Onis, I see no reason wy they shouldn't work. Alot of older rods came withbrass ferrules that were either silver or chrome plated. Myself ,I usenickelsilver for myferrules.I wouldn't use anything else on a bamboo rod. As for "tightening"the ferrules with plating, I do it all the time.When a customer comes in with awornferrule, I either plate the inside of the female or plate the outside of themale. Usuallyfirst with bronze plating to build up to size and then I plate nickel overthat to matchthe nickel silver color. I hope this helps. Dave LeClair from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Thu Sep 11 19:56:17 1997 mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Re: ferrules type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question isstillRO>unanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsRO>daily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement ona hobbyRO>level if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy tobring theRO>diameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and thechemicalsRO>are available in virtually every hardware store. RO>The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I willsave anyRO>money(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost ofsalts toRO>finish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheapandRO>sometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. SilverplatingRO>is simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I wouldjustRO>pay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I ama seniorRO>level engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, basedon whatRO>I am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost ofevenRO>the best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the roddoesRO>break. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't tryinganything new. RO>The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher,IRO>haven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While IcouldRO>have done a little research and found the answer myself, I valuetheRO>experience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason RO>question. RO>Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't needanyRO>protection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. Thisis theRO>way I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience butnot yourRO>opinion. Again thanks for the reply. RO>Regards,RO>OnisRO>k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Why not just try to find some Nickel Silver tubing and save yourselfsome grief of working with brass. Don Burns Onis:You've received very good advice. No material can match Nickel Silver understand the difference. But, what the hey, do it your way and havefun failing! Joe Loverti from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Sep 11 19:56:22 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Onis, just incase you wanted to make your ferrules out of nickel silvertubing orsolid bar ,I carry a large inventory of the stuff. I don't know if you havea lathe ornot,but if you do E-Mail me your mailing address and I will send you someinfo. Dave LeClair from mrj@seanet.com Thu Sep 11 19:59:12 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA06818 for Subject: Re: ferrules Onis Cogburn wrote: I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question is stillunanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsdaily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement on a hobbylevel if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy to bring thediameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and thechemicalsare available in virtually every hardware store. The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I will save anymoney(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost of saltstofinish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheap andsometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. Silverplatingis simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I would justpay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I am aseniorlevel engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, based onwhatI am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost of eventhe best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the rod doesbreak. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't trying anythingnew. The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher, Ihaven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While I couldhave done a little research and found the answer myself, I value theexperience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason formyquestion. Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyprotection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theway I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but not youropinion. Again thanks for the reply. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:53 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote:Onis Cogburn wrote: Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardware storesand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brasstubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about1/16 inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the nextlargersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heatandretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering ifanyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback Icansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule. Ihaveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done for otherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size of matingcanbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of usingthesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com In regards to making ferrules out of brass stock from a hobby store.The tolerances in the slip fit as you mention of the different sizetubes would be way way way too much for a ferrule. Ferrules have a fitof probably less than a thousand of an inch. Your hobby stock fit mostlikely borders on at least ten to twenty thousands of an inch clearance.This would be totally unacceptable.Nickel silver ferrules are about $40.00 a crack. Yes a lot of money. Youcan get inexpensive ferrules that would be aluminum or nickel platedbrass for only a few dollars a piece. Literally only a few dollars, like$3.00 maybe. These cheap ferrules would be light years ahead of anyferrule that you could make using the method you have described. Theseyou can get at a good rod building store or some mail order houses.Using hobby stock your ferrules would lead to a broken rod joint or atthe very least a broken ferrule in very short order. The time requiredto make a decent ferrule with the hobby stock would not warrant theeffort.I'm sorry if I don't sound too diplomatic in my response but I reallyfeel strongly on this and would hate to see you spend God knows howmanyhours to plane and build a rod and then put home made ferrules on itthat would take probably an hour of two to construct in the very leastand would not last and in fact would probably have to be taped togetherin order to even work at all. The cheap (spell that inexpensive)ferrules I mentioned would give you years of service and again, onlycost a few dollars.--Martin Jensen My only experience in regards to ferrules on rods is with the NickelSilver or Super Z type ferrule. Good luck-- Martin Jensen from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Sep 11 20:05:21 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Onis, Mr. Smithwick is correct. I have seen alot of split brass ferrules onolder rods.As I said before,Brass will work.But, Nickel silver will work better Dave LeClair from cmax@jymis.com Thu Sep 11 20:19:51 1997 Subject: Thanks!!! thanks guys.All of my questions answered to a "T". As far as the zig-zags, glad tohear they were artifacts of the software-I was begining to think thestudies I had done were from information published on another planet. Anyhow, Thanks for all the help. Chris Maxfield from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 11 21:34:01 1997 ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: ferrules Thanks very much for the input Martin. The response to my question hascertainly given me much to think about. Everyone have a nice weekend. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 05:59 PM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote:Onis Cogburn wrote: I thank you very much for your answer Martin but but my question isstillunanswered. The clearances are not an issue. We deal with thoseproblemsdaily. The process is called plating. It's simple to implement on ahobbylevel if you keep a good chemistry book handy. It's very easy to bringthediameter of the male ferrule up to the desired thickness and thechemicalsare available in virtually every hardware store. The question of cost is also not an issue. I doubt that I will save anymoney(probably the reverse) by doing my own ferrules. the cost ofsalts tofinish the ferrule in the desired metal are not necessarly cheap andsometimes not simple. Copper plating is cheap and simple. Silverplatingis simple but not cheap. If I really wanted to save money, I would justpay someone else the price and let them build the whole rod. I am aseniorlevel engineer. By the time I calculate the cost of my time, based onwhatI am earning now, to build a rod, I will be well beyond the cost of eventhe best rod builders price. And anyway, what the heck if the rod doesbreak. If you don't fail from time to time, you aren't trying anythingnew. The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher, Ihaven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. While Icouldhave done a little research and found the answer myself, I value theexperience and knowledge vested in this group. This was the reason formyquestion. Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't need anyprotection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. This is theway I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience but not youropinion. Again thanks for the reply. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:53 AM 9/11/97 -0700, you wrote:Onis Cogburn wrote: Hello all. I have a question on building ferrules. Most hardwarestoresand craft stores, also model airplane stores have a telescoping brasstubeassortment. The tubes one foot long and range in size from about1/16 inchto nearly 3/4 inch. Each tube is sized to just slip inside the nextlargersize. The material is tempered brass. It may be softened with heatandretempered. It also work hardens. The thickness of the wall is about.0015 inch.(don't have an accurate caliper yet) I am wondering ifanyonehas used this material for ferrule construction. The only drawback Icansee would be the lack of the roll at the lip of the female ferrule.I haveno equipment or method for achieving that. What I have done forotherapplications is to cut small rings of the next larger tuve and silversolder these in place. I use my 4" Dremmel table saw with aceramic/fiberglass cutting disk to cut the small rings. Size ofmating canbe controlled by plating; copper cheap and easy to do to silver(not socheap or easy to get but easy to do). Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term reliability of usingthesetubes for making ferrules? Any thoughts you may have would beappreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com In regards to making ferrules out of brass stock from a hobby store.The tolerances in the slip fit as you mention of the different sizetubes would be way way way too much for a ferrule. Ferrules have a fitof probably less than a thousand of an inch. Your hobby stock fit mostlikely borders on at least ten to twenty thousands of an inch clearance.This would be totally unacceptable.Nickel silver ferrules are about $40.00 a crack. Yes a lot of money. Youcan get inexpensive ferrules that would be aluminum or nickel platedbrass for only a few dollars a piece. Literally only a few dollars, like$3.00 maybe. These cheap ferrules would be light years ahead of anyferrule that you could make using the method you have described. Theseyou can get at a good rod building store or some mail order houses.Using hobby stock your ferrules would lead to a broken rod joint or atthe very least a broken ferrule in very short order. The time requiredto make a decent ferrule with the hobby stock would not warrant theeffort.I'm sorry if I don't sound too diplomatic in my response but I reallyfeel strongly on this and would hate to see you spend God knows howmanyhours to plane and build a rod and then put home made ferrules on itthat would take probably an hour of two to construct in the very leastand would not last and in fact would probably have to be taped togetherin order to even work at all. The cheap (spell that inexpensive)ferrules I mentioned would give you years of service and again, onlycost a few dollars.--Martin Jensen My only experience in regards to ferrules on rods is with the NickelSilver or Super Z type ferrule. Good luck-- Martin Jensen from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Sep 11 21:41:34 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Onis -There is information available to assist you in the design of theferrules that you are investigating. Everett Garrison wrote about the Zcalculation used to determine wall thickness of ferrules - Lou Feierabend-an IBM engineer - did work on ferrule design in the late 40's from thiscamethe Super Z ferrules - that design style is the mainstay of the ferrulesusedtoday.As other have said - the light walled brass plated ferrules of yestereracracked often - durabronze might be another option that you couldinvestigate. - the soft requires less temperature Wayne from richjez@enteract.com Thu Sep 11 22:15:26 1997 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric,I cast Chris's big dog rod at that Greyrock gathering. Chris is right aboutthe ease of casting it. I covet that rod secretly. I have a 9' sage (Ibought it before I knew about cane) and the big dog is no more difficult tocast. Rich Jezioro At 04:56 PM 9/10/97 -0400, you wrote:Eric I just happen to have and use just such a big dog rod. I find that onceyou learn to let the rod work for you rather than you work for the rod itbecomesvery easy to use. I like to use this rod to reach out and touch some fishso Iam picking upand laying out 70'+ of line with minimal effort. I work less with this rodthan comparable graphite rods and can out cast them for distance. Ilearnedsome good techniques from Per Brandon at the last Corbett Lakegatheringthat solved the issue you are talking about. Giving casting instructionsremotely is hard to do but just try keep your elbow in, lift the rod quicklyto 12:00 and then back to 10:00. It is a short sweet stroke but I can blowline past an 8wt Sage with apparent no effort.I had this rod at Grayrock two years ago and we played around with it. Agood caster (Leon Hansen) could take the rod and go 30' into the backingwhilecasting into a head wind coming up the AuSable. So much for the myththatbamboo has no power. Chris eric.koehler wrote: I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations oflong and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/constructionstandpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. Thequestion popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5'8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on aroutine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room beforemy next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down onthe weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probablyget some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /||/______/_||_________________________________________|| /\ / \ } }/ \ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Sep 11 22:39:29 1997 Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:39:20 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: ferrules Could some-one please explain how to go about plating NS or Brass?If it's too complex is there a good source I can access to find out how? As always,Thanks in advance. Tony On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Onis, I see no reason wy they shouldn't work. Alot of older rods camewithbrass ferrules that were either silver or chrome plated. Myself ,I usenickelsilver for myferrules.I wouldn't use anything else on a bamboo rod. As for "tightening"the ferrules with plating, I do it all the time.When a customer comes in withawornferrule, I either plate the inside of the female or plate the outside of themale. Usuallyfirst with bronze plating to build up to size and then I plate nickel overthat to matchthe nickel silver color. I hope this helps. Dave LeClair /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Thu Sep 11 22:42:01 1997 (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA296 0400 Subject: Re: ferrules From: LECLAIR123@aol.com Subject: Re: ferrules Onis, just incase you wanted to make your ferrules out of nickel silvertubing orsolid bar ,I carry a large inventory of the stuff. I don't know if you havea lathe ornot,but if you do E-Mail me your mailing address and I will send yousomeinfo. Dave LeClair Hi David, Could you please E-mail me a list of N/S rod & tubing availabe? JorgeCarcao@myna.com from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 12 08:40:59 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules RO>> RO>The question I have is one of metal strength. While a fly fisher,RO>> IRO>> RO>haven't made a study of ferrule materials for comparrison. WhileIRO>> couldRO>> RO>have done a little research and found the answer myself, I valueRO>> theRO>> RO>experience and knowledge vested in this group. This was thereasonRO>> for myRO>> RO>question.RO>>RO>> RO>Please forgive me if I've climbed on a soap box, but I don't needRO>> anyRO>> RO>protection from failure. I expect to fail some of the time. ThisRO>> is theRO>> RO>way I learn. This is why I am interested in your experience butRO>> not yourRO>> RO>opinion. Again thanks for the reply.RO>>RO>> RO>Regards,RO>> RO>OnisRO>> RO>k5vkq@ix.netcom.comRO>>RO>> Why not just try to find some Nickel Silver tubing and save yourselfRO>> some grief of working with brass.RO>>RO>> Don Burns RO>Onis:RO>You've received very good advice. No material can match Nickel SilverRO>for a myriad of reasons  a 'senior level engineer' should be able toRO>understand the difference. But, what the hey, do it your way and haveRO>fun failing! RO>Joe Loverti As a side issue, does anyone have a source of new NPB ferrules that areof a design that's correct for use on classic cane rods? Most (read that as "All) of the ones I've purchased lately are moreproperly designed for fiberglass/graphite rods of constant taper andhave large dia. male halves which create problems when used to directlyreplace damaged ferrules on the older cane rods. I need a ferrule with a larger stepdown that's larger than std. to workwithout the need to shim the male ferrule station. I've tried ferrules from Angler's Workshop, Netcraft and the Dale Clemens Co. so far. Anyothers out there that are better suited? Don Burns from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Fri Sep 12 09:29:44 1997 mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:29:51 -0500 Subject: Re: ferrules -Reply Don, from what i have been told there is only one manufacturer of cpbferrules and he supplies everyone. I had good luck with the ones fromE.J. Hille in Penn. But they looked like the ones from netcraft only Hillehad a better selection of smaller sizes. from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Fri Sep 12 09:34:19 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Don seez... Most (read that as "All) of the ones I've purchased lately are moreproperly designed for fiberglass/graphite rods of constant taper andhave large dia. male halves which create problems when used to directlyreplace damaged ferrules on the older cane rods. I need a ferrule with a larger stepdown that's larger than std. to workwithout the need to shim the male ferrule station. I've tried ferrules from Angler's Workshop, Netcraft and the Dale Clemens Co. so far. Anyothers out there that are better suited? I know Netcraft at one time carried stepped-down NPB ferrules. As Irecall they started with a stepped 9/64 to 10/64, and went up tohumongo size. Mike- from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Fri Sep 12 09:45:37 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri,12 Sep 1997 10:45:22 EDT Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement Thanks for the response...I will try to capture what Georgesays...Basically from what I gather, at the point of ferrule placement therod is built up. from 5" in front of the ferrule and 5" after the flatdimension increases a couple thousands. I don't remember the figureexactly but that was the idea. I was just wondering if you take a taper from the archive to build do you just figure out where the ferrule wouldgo to make the dimensions equal? It seems like I am missing something. Iam figuring I would take the finished length and divide by two. Then forthe butt section (in the case of a two piece rod) subtract the seatingdimension of the male ferrule part and the cap dimension in the femaleferrule part. Then, for the tip section to subtract the dimension of themale cap. That's all I figure. I just feel like I am missing somethingthat's all. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from penr0295@uidaho.edu Fri Sep 12 10:25:28 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id IAA17930 for ; doing -bs Subject: Andy Royer's Cane On Tuesday I met Andy Royer from Seattle Bamboo Hardwoods. He wasvisiting Bend, and stopped by to show me some photographs of his trip toChina to purchase Tonkin cane. I asked Andy if I could pick out somephotos to put up on my website, since they could be of interest to anumber of builders. I understand that Luis Marden's book, The Angler'sBamboo, also has similar images showing Tonkin in various stages ofpreparation for export, but I have not seen the book yet.In any case, the site can be found at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/china.htmI have not seen the cane yet, which is supposed to arrive and go throughcustoms in the next couple of weeks, but I have been impressed by thephotos and what Andy told me of his selection process. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 12 10:41:47 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement In a message dated 97-09-12 10:49:28 EDT, you write: I was just wondering if you take a taper from the archive to build do you just figure out where the ferrule wouldgo to make the dimensions equal? It seems like I am missingsomething. Iam figuring I would take the finished length and divide by two. Then forthe butt section (in the case of a two piece rod) subtract the seatingdimension of the male ferrule part and the cap dimension in the femaleferrule part. Then, for the tip section to subtract the dimension of themale cap. That's all I figure. I just feel like I am missing somethingthat's all. This is described in detail in Wayne's book, but as usual I do it a little differently. I usually take half the engagement length of the male and add that to both sections, but you also have to figure in the butt cap of the reel seat and how much the tip top is going to add to the length of the tip section. My way gets you real close to the correct length, but if you absolutley have to have the length of the rod to a predetermined length I wouldfollow Wayne's book. I have found that an inch longer or shorter doesn't affect the rod muchat all. Sir Darryl from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Sep 12 11:39:12 1997 Subject: Re: Andy Royer's Cane I have seen Thomas's page, and it looks great! Andy, if you are looking,can you email me off list? Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Thomas Penrose Subject: Andy Royer's CaneDate: Friday, September 12, 1997 8:25 AM On Tuesday I met Andy Royer from Seattle Bamboo Hardwoods. He wasvisiting Bend, and stopped by to show me some photographs of his trip toChina to purchase Tonkin cane. I asked Andy if I could pick out somephotos to put up on my website, since they could be of interest to anumber of builders. I understand that Luis Marden's book, The Angler'sBamboo, also has similar images showing Tonkin in various stages ofpreparation for export, but I have not seen the book yet.In any case, the site can be found at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/china.htmI have not seen the cane yet, which is supposed to arrive and go throughcustoms in the next couple of weeks, but I have been impressed by thephotos and what Andy told me of his selection process. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Fri Sep 12 12:03:20 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) 04/10/90) Subject: Re: Andy Royer's Cane Thomas,Thanks, nice work.Sergio Thomas Penrose wrote: On Tuesday I met Andy Royer from Seattle Bamboo Hardwoods. He wasvisiting Bend, and stopped by to show me some photographs of his trip toChina to purchase Tonkin cane. I asked Andy if I could pick out somephotos to put up on my website, since they could be of interest to anumber of builders. I understand that Luis Marden's book, The Angler'sBamboo, also has similar images showing Tonkin in various stages ofpreparation for export, but I have not seen the book yet.In any case, the site can be found at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/china.htmI have not seen the cane yet, which is supposed to arrive and go throughcustoms in the next couple of weeks, but I have been impressed by thephotos and what Andy told me of his selection process. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Sep 12 12:09:22 1997 Subject: plating In a message dated 9/12/97 8:05:22 AM, you wrote: G'day mate -- At one time you could buy home setups for plating smallpieces.All you really need is some sort of transformer and the plating solution.This activity is now so regulated around here, that the kits don't seem tobeavailable anymore. Maybe someone else has seen them recently. I used togetplating done by a local jeweler. Then the State (NJ) imposed the sameregulations and oversight on them that they require for industrial platingcompanies, and they said to hell with it.You might check with some industrial supply houses, or some jewelers inyourarea. If you go to a plating company, there will be a minimum charge thatwill most likely make the operation unattractive.. Incidently, there is now a process called electroless nickel that does notneed the electric current. It's expensive, but it deposits the plating evenlyon irregular shaped parts, including into deep holes. Electroplating doesnotdo this because the current can be shielded from certain areas. I don'tknowif this solution would be available in small quantities, but it might beworth checking into. -- Tom from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 12 13:00:41 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules -Reply RO>Don, from what i have been told there is only one manufacturer of cpbRO>ferrules and he supplies everyone. I had good luck with the ones fromRO>E.J. Hille in Penn. But they looked like the ones from netcraft onlyHilleRO>had a better selection of smaller sizes. Could supply address and phone # for above? Does he/they have a catalog? Don from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 12 13:01:14 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules RO>I know Netcraft at one time carried stepped-down NPB ferrules. As IRO>recall they started with a stepped 9/64 to 10/64, and went up toRO>humongo size. RO>Mike- There's a lot of things that they used to have before the Jann's buyoutthat's not in the latest catalog. Too bad too. The 9/64's and 10/64'sare gone from the list now. Maybe if I called them they'll still havesome stepdown ferrules? I've got a pile of low-end production rods here that I'd like to finishoff and sell, but I lack some proper ferrules that work will on theseold Montague rods - that is not without some major playing around. Notworth getting NS Montague-style stepdown ferrules from Bailey. Anyone want to replate a silver-soldered repaired brass ferrule for me?I'd like to see if it hold up. Don from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 12 13:12:47 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules In a message dated 97-09-12 04:05:22 EDT, you write: Could some-one please explain how to go about plating NS or Brass?If it's too complex is there a good source I can access to find out how? In my college days I worked in a jewelry making supply store.(The main reason my other hobby is jewelry making). We soldplating kits that ranged from something that looked like a penwith batteries inside to the full rheostat acid bath several hundreddollar jobs. See if you have a jewelry makers supply store around.Sometimes they are listed under Lapidary supplies. Wouldn't a gold plated ferrule and bronze guides look nice? Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 12 13:12:56 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement In a message dated 97-09-12 10:49:28 EDT, you write: .Basically from what I gather, at the point of ferrule placement therod is built up. from 5" in front of the ferrule and 5" after the flatdimension increases a couple thousands. I don't remember the figureexactly but that was the idea. I was just wondering if you take a taper from the archive to build do you just figure out where the ferrule wouldgo to make the dimensions equal? The ferrule doesn't bend when the rest of the rod is flexed. Consequentlythere are very high areas of stress on both sides of the ferrule. I haven'tseen very many breaks in cane rods, but the few I've seen (due to pullingon the line, not slamming in a door or sitting on the rod) the break wasabout an inch or two below the ferrule. I have not seen one above theferrule. If anyone has let me know. One of the things I am trying toincorporate into a stress anaylsis program I am working on is takingthe stress of the area the ferrule covers and transferring it below theferrule for a more realistic protrayal of the stress curve. The question is though, what is the best thing to do to ameliorate thehigh stress next to the ferrule? Build it up because the thicker sectioncan take more stress, or thin it down a few inches below the ferrule so that the stress is distributed over a longer area? This could be another reason for the Cattanach Hinge. What I would like to see is someone mounting a series of straingauges along the length of a cane rod and a plot of the results. Ihave seen a strain gauge that looks like a piece of flat plastic witha wire down the middle. A current is placed along the wire, and asthe wire is bent the current is changed. The more the wire is deflected,the more the current changes. If you had several of these and tapedthem every few inches along a rod, then flexed the rod, I think wecould get a good idea of how the actual stresses are distributed. Sir Darryl from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Sep 12 13:14:54 1997 (CEST) ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Hollow-fluting Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form of aplaneform for hollow-fluting? Could I just plane away some of the soft stuff of the splits - if so, howmuch. I imagine, that it would be bad business to remove material at theferrulestation. I imagine that hollow-fluting has been discussed before, but being new tothe list (in fact this is the first day) I have to ask. All comments are welcomed. Carsten Jorgensen Denmark from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 12 13:34:22 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules RO>In a message dated 97-09-12 04:05:22 EDT, you write: RO>Wouldn't a gold plated ferrule and bronze guides look nice? RO>Sir Darryl Sir Darryl (of la-la land ): Heddon made some rods with gold-plated ferrules and guides. Their Model#1000 (Rod-of-Rods) had true gold-plating, but they also made twolower-priced models, sold only through Sears, that had gold- japanedferrules and guides - models #115 and #125. I don't own any of these atthis time or I'd offer to let you see one. Don Burns from GAM@mssmtpgate.housing.umich.edu Fri Sep 12 13:35:59 1997 mssmtpgate.housing.umich.eduwith Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:36:07 -0500 Subject: Re: ferrules -Reply -Reply Don, Address for Hille isE.Hille Co.815 Railway StWilliamsport, Pa. 17701717- 323-7564800-326-6612 order linewww.HappyValley.com/Hille They have a catalog but it is just a black and white print job. Thecompany is family owned and the people are very helpful and nice. (they called to tell me something was backordered and then called againwhen they shipped it.) Hope this helps. Gary from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Sep 12 14:26:28 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-39971U10000L10000S0)with SMTP id AAA236 for ;Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:20:44 -0500 Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I'm constantly amused that whatseems to be a simple matter can get opposite answers from a group ofpeople all committed to the same end, building a good rod! I'm sure I'll ask more and more questions as I get farther along. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com Charles Parham wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-10 21:46:41 EDT, you write: In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, andevenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would itwork,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron? Using fine sandpaper on a piece of glass to sharpen a plane iron worksvery well. Use rubber cement to stick the paper on the glass so youcan peel it off when the sandpaper wears out. I saw an article on howto do it in a woodworking magazine a long time ago. Sir D(Darryl Hayashida) Also try just water to hold the sandpaper to the glass. Use a full sheetof paper and run the sharpening guide on the paper. Place the glass inan old cookie sheet to contain the slurry and keep your work benchclean. Add water as you need it. Use single sheet (flat) paper and avoidpaper which has been rolled as this will round the edge of the planeblade. I've used this method for years. from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 12 14:27:05 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules -Reply -Reply RO>Don, RO>Address for Hille isRO>E.Hille Co.RO>815 Railway StRO>Williamsport, Pa. 17701RO>717-323-7564RO>800-326-6612 order lineRO>www.HappyValley.com/Hille RO>They have a catalog but it is just a black and white print job. TheRO>company is family owned and the people are very helpful and nice.RO>(they called to tell me something was backordered and then calledagainRO>when they shipped it.) Hope this helps. Gary The above URL: doesn't work - I'll call them. Thanks, Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 12 14:57:18 1997 (205.236.249.101) Subject: Re: ferrules SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-12 04:05:22 EDT, you write: Wouldn't a gold plated ferrule and bronze guides look nice? Sir Darryl Sure would your Lordship, with a matching gold tipped wading staff anda powdered wig.Terry from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 12 16:32:38 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules In a message dated 97-09-12 16:10:36 EDT, you write: Sure would your Lordship, with a matching gold tipped wading staff anda powdered wig. No, I think a tweed suit and a tam o'shanter would be better. :-) Sir D from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Sep 12 17:01:45 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement Sir D, is the Cattanach hinge in Wayne's book. I don't have it handy (I'mat work), but I don't recall seeing it. Perhaps in his video? I haveheard you and Wayne talk about it, but I am not sure I understand it. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: SalarFly@aol.com Subject: Re: Ferrule PlacementDate: Friday, September 12, 1997 11:12 AM In a message dated 97-09-12 10:49:28 EDT, you write: .Basically from what I gather, at the point of ferrule placement therod is built up. from 5" in front of the ferrule and 5" after the flatdimension increases a couple thousands. I don't remember the figureexactly but that was the idea. I was just wondering if you take ataper from the archive to build do you just figure out where the ferrulewouldgo to make the dimensions equal? The ferrule doesn't bend when the rest of the rod is flexed. Consequentlythere are very high areas of stress on both sides of the ferrule. Ihaven'tseen very many breaks in cane rods, but the few I've seen (due to pullingon the line, not slamming in a door or sitting on the rod) the break wasabout an inch or two below the ferrule. I have not seen one above theferrule. If anyone has let me know. One of the things I am trying toincorporate into a stress anaylsis program I am working on is takingthe stress of the area the ferrule covers and transferring it below theferrule for a more realistic protrayal of the stress curve. The question is though, what is the best thing to do to ameliorate thehigh stress next to the ferrule? Build it up because the thicker sectioncan take more stress, or thin it down a few inches below the ferrule so that the stress is distributed over a longer area? This could be another reason for the Cattanach Hinge. What I would like to see is someone mounting a series of straingauges along the length of a cane rod and a plot of the results. Ihave seen a strain gauge that looks like a piece of flat plastic witha wire down the middle. A current is placed along the wire, and asthe wire is bent the current is changed. The more the wire is deflected,the more the current changes. If you had several of these and tapedthem every few inches along a rod, then flexed the rod, I think wecould get a good idea of how the actual stresses are distributed. Sir Darryl from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 12 18:04:26 1997 Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:04:03 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: plating Hi Tom,Thanks for all that. What a safe world we all live in thanks to the regulators! They protect us all by outlawing red lead so I can't prime the wood on my boat properly, now it seems I can't colour my rod jewlery as I'll polute the waterways with the waste. I wish someone would tell all this to the Aluminium smelter 20 miles from me about all this protection going on.I'll try asking the jewlwers I bought my jewlers saw and blades from. If nothing there, I'll just try the library.The main reason I need to know is I'm making a rod with bronze coloured guides and I want to make the ferrule the same colour, but turn the ferrule from NS rod in my usual way. Tony On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/12/97 8:05:22 AM, you wrote: G'day mate -- At one time you could buy home setups for plating smallpieces.All you really need is some sort of transformer and the plating solution.This activity is now so regulated around here, that the kits don't seem tobeavailable anymore. Maybe someone else has seen them recently. I used togetplating done by a local jeweler. Then the State (NJ) imposed the sameregulations and oversight on them that they require for industrialplatingcompanies, and they said to hell with it.You might check with some industrial supply houses, or some jewelers inyourarea. If you go to a plating company, there will be a minimum charge thatwill most likely make the operation unattractive.. Incidently, there is now a process called electroless nickel that does notneed the electric current. It's expensive, but it deposits the platingevenlyon irregular shaped parts, including into deep holes. Electroplating doesnotdo this because the current can be shielded from certain areas. I don'tknowif this solution would be available in small quantities, but it might beworth checking into. -- Tom /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 12 18:06:42 1997 Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:06:33 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: ferrules Daryl, Thanks for the tip about jewlery supply houses. I'll try that and yes I think bronze ferrules would look nice. In fact that's what I'm wanting todo. Tony On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-12 04:05:22 EDT, you write: Could some-one please explain how to go about plating NS or Brass?If it's too complex is there a good source I can access to find out how? In my college days I worked in a jewelry making supply store.(The main reason my other hobby is jewelry making). We soldplating kits that ranged from something that looked like a penwith batteries inside to the full rheostat acid bath several hundreddollar jobs. See if you have a jewelry makers supply store around.Sometimes they are listed under Lapidary supplies. Wouldn't a gold plated ferrule and bronze guides look nice? Sir Darryl /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 12 18:09:43 1997 Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:09:35 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: sharpening & two other questions On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I'm constantly amused that whatseems to be a simple matter can get opposite answers from a group ofpeople all committed to the same end, building a good rod! I'm sure I'll ask more and more questions as I get farther along. That's what makes it so much fun. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 12 18:10:30 1997 Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:10:22 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: ferrules On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-12 16:10:36 EDT, you write: Sure would your Lordship, with a matching gold tipped wading staffanda powdered wig. No, I think a tweed suit and a tam o'shanter would be better. :-) Sir D Plus 4's ?Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 19:30:34 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules 9/64 .240x.140 $11.5010/64 .250x.156 $11.5011/64 .265x.171 $12.3512/64 .280x.187 $13.0513/64 .290x.203 $12.8514/64 .320x.218 $18.6015/64 .335x.234 $16.80 .875x.730 $28.35.720x.650 $22.45 BAR STOCK 7/8 $30.003/4 $25.001/2 $16.50 THESE PRICES ARE PER FOOT. QUANITY DISCOUNTS AVAILABLE-CALL FOR PRICESANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN THIS MIGHT WANT TO PRINT THIS OUT.I SENT THROUGH BEFORE, BUT ALOT OF GUYS MUST NOT HAVE SEEN IT. Dave LeClair 315-689-7896 evenings from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 19:46:41 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Don, I don't know of any other place to get the type of ferrules you need.Maybeif you contact Onis,he might be able to make them for you. Dave L. from lblan@oeonline.com Fri Sep 12 19:56:58 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0x9gJ1-0003q8C; Fri, 12 Sep 97 20:43 EDT Subject: Re: stress curve questions Great.... Thanks again for the effort Jerry. The problem didn't bother me nearly as much as not being able to find thecause. Would you mind letting me in on the cure.... before I look at thecode line by line! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: stress curve questions Larry The current online version is fixed.. jerry from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 19:57:11 1997 Subject: Re: Andy Royer's Cane Thomas,this has nothing to do with cane,but. I will be out there the lastweek of Sept. and the first week of Oct. to visit my brother inlaw inAloha,outside of Portland.Can you give me any info on fishing the McKenze or the Clakamas. Mybrotherinlawis trying to set something up for us.But he doesn't know much about thoserivers.Two years ago I was out there and we fished for a week on the Deshutes inMaupin.It was a great time for me.It is so much different than NY.Thanks in advance. Dave LeClair from mrj@seanet.com Fri Sep 12 20:00:54 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17879 for Subject: Re: Hollow-fluting Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form of aplaneform for hollow-fluting? Could I just plane away some of the soft stuff of the splits - if so, howmuch. I imagine, that it would be bad business to remove material at theferrulestation. I imagine that hollow-fluting has been discussed before, but being newtothe list (in fact this is the first day) I have to ask. All comments are welcomed. Carsten Jorgensen Denmark Hollow fluting. do you mean a hollow built rod? I made one usinginstructions by Richard Tyree that I found in the "Best of the PlaningForm". He described scraping out the insides and leaving bridges inbetween the guides. I took each strip and used a bench grinder to removethe core. It worked well. The rod has 2 concave areas in the buttsection that may be caused by the side wall collapsing. I'm not sure. Inorder to test it I took my hands and bent it way more that you everwould fishing or casting and it survived. I have only used this rod acouple of times so far. Time will tell if it will last. If I do anotherone with this method, I will probably increase the width of the edgeswhere the splines are glued together. So far It is noticably lighterthan solid and real nice to cast. It is a 8.5 ft'er for a WF 6 line. Ihope we are talking about the same thing and that I am not wastingbandwidth. I can elaborate more if interested.-- Martin Jensen from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 20:12:12 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Don, give me a call about replating your ferrules. I do it all the time onthe ones I restore. Dave LeClair 315-689-7896 evenings/weekends from brookside.rod@juno.com Fri Sep 12 20:19:38 1997 21:17:16 EDT Subject: Re: plating and sources for info and materials Folks interested in plating might find the below noted source useful. The catalog offers kits for electroplating, brush plating, buffing et.al. Caswell Co.4336 Route 31Palmyra, N.Y. 14522-9719Tel (315)597- 5140www.caswellplating.comsales@caswellplating.com Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com In a message dated 9/12/97 8:05:22 AM, you wrote: G'day mate -- At one time you could buy home setups for plating small pieces.All you really need is some sort of transformer and the plating solution.This activity is now so regulated around here, that the kits don't seem to beavailable anymore. Maybe someone else has seen them recently. I used to getplating done by a local jeweler. Then the State (NJ) imposed the sameregulations and oversight on them that they require for industrial platingcompanies, and they said to hell with it.You might check with some industrial supply houses, or some jewelers in yourarea. If you go to a plating company, there will be a minimum charge thatwill most likely make the operation unattractive.. Incidently, there is now a process called electroless nickel that does notneed the electric current. It's expensive, but it deposits the plating evenlyon irregular shaped parts, including into deep holes. Electroplating does notdo this because the current can be shielded from certain areas. I don't knowif this solution would be available in small quantities, but it might beworth checking into. -- Tom from brookside.rod@juno.com Fri Sep 12 20:48:02 1997 21:46:56 EDT Subject: Re: ferrules and ferrule fitting. just for info. those who build their own ferrules may be interested to know of theavailability of a tool which makes ferrule fitting a snap. Bailey woodsof Classic Sporting Enterprises (a ferrule maker) will soon be orderingthe manufacture of a run of special files specifically for ferrulefitting. These files will be manufactured to be 8 cut files which areextremely fine cutting tools which ought to work well on soft materialsuch as nickel silver. Interested builders should call Bailey directlyand discuss the matter. This is one of those once in a lifetimeopportunities as such tools will likely not again be available. BaileyWoods can be reached at (802) 525-3623 Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 21:42:41 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Tony, I might be able to help. I've been plating as a gunsmith/rod builder fothirtyyears. Nickel,chrome,brass,bronze,silver,gold,you name it. I will need toknowwhat type of plating you want to do. Nickel,bronze,etc. Let me know and Iwill seewhat I can do for you. Dave LeClair from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Sep 12 21:47:40 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Sir Darryl, I have built a few rods for special customers with 14 k goldplatedferrules and bronzed guides. They do look nice indead. Dave LeClair from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 12 21:59:48 1997 (205.236.248.175) Subject: Garrison: how many rods? I once read that Garrison made approx. 800 rods during his life time.Estimating that Garrison built rods for 40 years, this amounts to 20rods per year for 40 years. What I would like to know is, from the builders that build as per thebook. Is it possible to build 800 rods by his methods? Remember, he madeall his own fittings, tubes and sacks plus he had a day job! I would also be interested to know how many of his rods actually havesurvived.Terry Ackland from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Sep 12 22:23:30 1997 Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:23:07 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Garrison: how many rods? I think it can. I make all the componants incl reel seats, ferrules etc and I make them nodeless. I one month made 6 rods using a series of dipping tanks. Admitedly I'm no Garrison but I believe it can.I haven't repeated this "feat", I wish demand was such I could. Tony On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: I once read that Garrison made approx. 800 rods during his life time.Estimating that Garrison built rods for 40 years, this amounts to 20rods per year for 40 years. What I would like to know is, from the builders that build as per thebook. Is it possible to build 800 rods by his methods? Remember, hemadeall his own fittings, tubes and sacks plus he had a day job! I would also be interested to know how many of his rods actually havesurvived.Terry Ackland /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sat Sep 13 03:29:45 1997 (CEST) ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:21:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: hollow-building Martin Thank You for answering. As I take it, You are using the system, patentedin 1933 by E. C. Powell, or am I wrong? The system, patented by Lew Stoner of Winston rods is a bit different. Heplanes away the soft material (pith?) of the inside of the splines,probably with a concave plane of a sorts. Doing so removes material, butthe edges for glueing are only marginally smaller. Hopefully I am better making rods than expressing myself in a foreignlanguage, but I try: The inside of this kind of hollow-built rod is ahexagon, with concave sides. To me this seems to be the ultimate way of hollowbuilding, but I cannotfigure out a device for this concave planing. Is there someone with asolution, kind enough to help? Carsten from rmoon@dns.ida.net Sat Sep 13 07:53:27 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Martin Thank You for answering. As I take it, You are using the system,patentedin 1933 by E. C. Powell, or am I wrong? The system, patented by Lew Stoner of Winston rods is a bit different.Heplanes away the soft material (pith?) of the inside of the splines,probably with a concave plane of a sorts. Doing so removes material,butthe edges for glueing are only marginally smaller. Hopefully I am better making rods than expressing myself in a foreignlanguage, but I try: The inside of this kind of hollow-built rod is ahexagon, with concave sides. To me this seems to be the ultimate way of hollowbuilding, but Icannotfigure out a device for this concave planing. Is there someone with asolution, kind enough to help? Carsten Carsten This is presumptious of me, since hollow building is one ofthose projects for my next rod. I still have not done it. However, Ihave a tool I was intending to use. Dremel makes a small round millingbit . It is simply a fluted round ball on the end of a shank. Withsome sort of jig to enable you to hold it steady I think it might be Ralph from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Sat Sep 13 08:49:15 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA29971 +0000 Subject: Re: hollow-building Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Martin Thank You for answering. As I take it, You are using the system, patentedin 1933 by E. C. Powell, or am I wrong? The system, patented by Lew Stoner of Winston rods is a bit different.Heplanes away the soft material (pith?) of the inside of the splines,probably with a concave plane of a sorts. Doing so removes material, butthe edges for glueing are only marginally smaller. Hopefully I am better making rods than expressing myself in a foreignlanguage, but I try: The inside of this kind of hollow-built rod is ahexagon, with concave sides. To me this seems to be the ultimate way of hollowbuilding, but I cannotfigure out a device for this concave planing. Is there someone with asolution, kind enough to help? Carsten I saw Richard (Tyree) demonstrate his method at Greyrock a year ago. Hesimply used a swiss army knife to get close, always checking histhickness with a dial caliper. When he got close he switched to a file.He typically got his wall thickness within a thousandth of an inch ofdesired dimension this way. Best,Ed Estlow from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Sep 13 08:53:43 1997 ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:02:48 -0400 Subject: Re: hollow-building Ralph It's a shame more people cannot attend the Rodmaker's Gatherings. Thisyear at Roscoe - Tom Smithwick showed his technique on a rod he isbuilding andwe actually glued it up along with a sample section that we latter split tosee how much glue filled the void. Also Al Medved had his powered beveler /hollowing machine which he uses. Also, two years ago I demonstrated a easy tomake hollowfluting plane (copies of plans have been sent to Ron Barch for publishing)and JohnLong demonstrated Bill Waara's jig several years ago at Grayling. PerBrandon gave a good talk at the last Corbett Lake Gathering on hollow fluting. So support your local Rodmakers Gathering and you will learn a lot oftid bits. Regards Chris from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sat Sep 13 11:46:05 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA10330 for; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:35:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: hollow-building Ralph Moon wrote Carsten This is presumptious of me, since hollow building is one ofthose projects for my next rod. I still have not done it. However, Ihave a tool I was intending to use. Dremel makes a small round millingbit . It is simply a fluted round ball on the end of a shank. Withsome sort of jig to enable you to hold it steady I think it might be Ralph Ralph You are helpful, not presumptious. I get your point about the milling bit.What I cannot figure out is how to steer the spline in the longitudalcentre when milling. So if You could elaborate on this point, Id be glad Chris Bogarts comment makes me think I am reinventing hot water andtwocoloured toothpaste, so Chris, if You read this: Could You describe Yourhollow-fluting rig in detail. Even better, is it possible to aquire a copyof the drawings per snail-mail? If so You have made my day (and winter). Ed Estlows swiss army knife is very helpful, but my mind is set onbuildinga/several rods on the lines of the Stoner/Winston patent. selftought gentleman, building rods with only the female ferrule. This wasfastened to the top of the rod. As a male ferrule he used the butt (ofcause) without any ferrule, just like fiber rods. Has anybody tried thismethod? Does it work? Carsten Jorgensen from mrj@seanet.com Sat Sep 13 12:12:02 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00852 for Subject: Re: hollow-building Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Martin Thank You for answering. As I take it, You are using the system, patentedin 1933 by E. C. Powell, or am I wrong? The system, patented by Lew Stoner of Winston rods is a bit different.Heplanes away the soft material (pith?) of the inside of the splines,probably with a concave plane of a sorts. Doing so removes material, butthe edges for glueing are only marginally smaller. Hopefully I am better making rods than expressing myself in a foreignlanguage, but I try: The inside of this kind of hollow-built rod is ahexagon, with concave sides. To me this seems to be the ultimate way of hollowbuilding, but I cannotfigure out a device for this concave planing. Is there someone with asolution, kind enough to help? Carsten You are doing great. I NOW completely understand you. I am not hollowfluting. I am just planing out the inside of the cane between bridges(or damns). I agree that to leave a wider area for the glue edge isdesirable but I too don't really know how to go about this. It is reallyeasy to use a bench grinder to just grind out the inner surface. Iground out the butt section to .070 and the tip maybe one third up or soto .050. These were the figures given out by Richard Tyree in the Bestof the Planing Form. Consider this a plug for the book. It is really agood book with a lot of ideas. Again to point out my problems. There aretwo areas on opposing flats where I noticed that the varnish has aconcave surface to it. I don't think this could have been there earlieror I would have noticed it during finishing, I'm sure. The problem isthat it is right where one of my bridges is located so it almost forsure cannot be a collapsed wall even though that is what I think it is.I am inclined to think that I should lessen the tension on my binder fora hollow rod. Since the actual surface area has been reducedconsiderably the stress on my joints must be really high and a lothigher that my other rods.As I said though, I took the rod section andbent it until I would not have been surprised if it broke and (I didthis in a quiet room also) saw and heard no problems. I bent each enddown a foot from straight for the test! This is a 50 inch section!Anyway, I like the idea of hollow built but I am concerned about theglue surface. Maybe with less tension on my binder it will be OK. It maybe just fine now and I am just too concerned. It is such a pretty rodand it fishes really well that I can't bring my self to destructivetesting. Talking about this though, I have a friend who has a millingmachine. I may have him run me out 6 strips and then do destructivetesting (i.e. bend until breaking) on it.-- Martin Jensen from rfairfie@cisco.com Sat Sep 13 12:28:54 1997 KAA09558; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:28:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions Eric, I built a 9' 0" supposedly 4 wt this summer and used in in Canada thissummer. Two days with it was about all I could take, as it was tip heavy.I found out that if I used a heavier reel and balanced the outfit someplacein the middle of the handle, it was a lot less fatiguing to use. The reason that I said 'supposedly 4 wt' was because I tried it with a 9 wtshooting head, and it handled it really well. So much for trying to scalea 7 1/2 foot rod to 9 feet! Going with a hollow butt section will have the effect of moving the centerof gravity towards the tip, but will reduce the overall weight of the rod.I have been toying with the idea of hollowing out the butt in the sectionunder the handle and reel seat, and putting a fighting butt on any long rod that Imake in the future. One could even weight the fighting butt a bit to movethecenter of gravity back towards where I grip the rod. To summarize my opinion and experience, the better balanced the outfit isthe easier and less tiring it is to use. Good luck,Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Sep 10 08:23:32 1997Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:28 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: eric.koehler@meissner- wurst.com (eric.koehler) Subject: Rod/Line Wt QuestionsMime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitContent-Description: cc:Mail note partX- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent-Length: 798 I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations of long and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/construction standpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. The question popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5' 8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on a routine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room before my next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down on the weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probably get some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 13 12:38:51 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow-fluting In a message dated 97-09-13 01:31:42 EDT, you write: Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form of aplaneform for hollow-fluting? It doesn't show the actual plane that was used, but if you canget a hold of Patent No. 2,537,488 by L. D. Stoner it showshow he hollow fluted his cane rods. Also Patent No. 1,932,986shows how E. C. Powell built hollow rods. If you can receiveattachments I can email a scan of them to you. Maybe wecan put them up on Jerry Fosters web page if there isenough interest. Sir Darryl from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sat Sep 13 15:09:56 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA19836 for; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:59:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: hollow-building Martin Jensen wrote You are doing great. I NOW completely understand you. I am not hollowfluting. I am just planing out the inside of the cane between bridges(or damns). As I see it, You are not "just" planing - you are doing the thing. Do I getYou right: the thickness of the spline is .070 inches between the dams. Ifso, you are a braver man than me. I would not dare taking away so much ofthe material. She who must be obeyed has, this very day, permitted me to order a copyofthe Best of the Planing Form, so I am looking forward to read it. As to the "Concavism": I am not a structural engineer, which is why I havediscussed hollow-building with a couple of professors on the DTU - thedanish equivalence of MTI. They not being infected by splitcanitis stillinsisted, that given the structure of bamboo, removing half of thematerialof the splines would not weaken the rod more than a few percent. Theywereclever guys, they came op with the same solution as Stoner/Winston. Allthat for the price of a couple of beers. "Concavism" chapter 2: When you use a binder, you put even pressure on allsurfaces. Should the pressure be uneven, due to what ever reason, thesidesof the splines will simply not be parallel, which will result in a weakrod, breaking when bent. At least, that is my theory. Think of a u- boat,submitted to an enormous, but even pressure when subsurface. Most ofthemsurface again. You are doing the same thing to the rod: Submitting it to ahuge pressure when binding. Should the splines give in to some degree, astrong glueing would not take place, as the gluelines would not stayparallel? I dont mean to be pompeous, I am just theoretical. When bending a tube, it will take the form of an ellipse. (Boy, this isstrechting my vocabulary to the limits) The 10.000 dollar question is: The"concavism" of your rod, is it on the same flat, as where the rings aremounted? I take it, that you use the rod with the rings pointing forwards. Martin, your comments are more than welcomed, and so is everybodyelse's. Sir Darryl: Thank You for the kind offer. I happen to have a copy of both patents,curtesy of the danish patent office (I have a good friend working there).Furthermore I do not know how to send or recieve attachments. So on thatsubject you are more than welcome to try to enlighten me.About theStoner/Winston patent: It describes the result, not the process, or am Ijust being ignorant? Sincerely Carsten from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Sep 13 16:49:14 1997 (205.236.248.194) Subject: Re: Garrison: how many rods? Tony Young wrote: I think it can. I make all the componants incl reel seats, ferrulesetcand I make them nodeless. I one month made 6 rods using a series ofdipping tanks. Admitedly I'm no Garrison but I believe it can.I haven't repeated this "feat", I wish demand was such I could. Tony That is good going. You also still have time to waste on this list!Do not take this as a put down but from what I can remember you are anew builder? and I guess full of gung ho. Try to picture buildingrods by your methods year after year, imagine the tedium. Imaginedoing it for 40 years. So many Garrison type builders have droppedout over the last 10 years after spending big bucks on fancyadvertising. Even Garrisons apprentice has quit building I believe. Now if could knock out rods fast like Montague or Southbend ...... Theywere not too shabby either, take a look at the cane work. These companysmade money. I would be quite content to leave the posthumous fame to youguys and build rods for mere mortals. Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod weshall all be backordered for years.Terry / **********************************************************************/ Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/**********************************************************************/ from lblan@oeonline.com Sat Sep 13 19:27:52 1997 (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0xA2KI-0003r4C; Sat, 13 Sep 97 20:14 EDT Subject: Re: Hexrod.xls Hi Jerry. Got the new version.... things were looking good until I enteredthe data for Wayne's 6'3" 4wt. The program must have something againstthisrod.... . I still show the oscillations in the butt section, with the odd numberedferrule moments going to zero after the ferrule. It has a new wrinkle too. The dimensions sheet is ok. I input 5" numbersandcalculated the rest. I compared it to the output from the dos version. Itlooks good. Now, if you go to the moments worksheet, it isn't entering thecorrect dimensions at inch positions 51 through 59. The numbers jump invalue, for no apparent reason. There is a corresponding spike in thedimension chart too. My understanding of the program tells me that thenumbers on the moments worksheet are simply taken from the dimensionsworksheet. The dimensions worksheet is ok all the way down to the end oftherod..... The following shows the dimensions taken from the moments worksheetstartingat a point before the error, and continuing to a point after the error. Thesecond column shows the corresponding point taken from the old version(moments worksheet) 50 .216 .216 Note that when the error occurs, it progress as .010,.020, .030, .040, .000, .040, .030,51 .228 .218 .020, .01052 .240 .22053 .253 .22354 .265 .22555 .227 .22756 .269 .22957 .261 .23158 .253 .23359 .245 .23560 .237 .237 from brookside.rod@juno.com Sat Sep 13 20:02:26 1997 21:02:20 EDT Subject: Re: would'nt it be nice Was:Garrison: how many rods? WELL SAID TERRY! Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod weshall all be backordered for years.Terry Perhaps one day more of the angling world will realize that there is moreto fly fishing than putting out a mile of line. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: home.onestop.net/brookside from plipton@sunvalley.net Sat Sep 13 21:55:43 1997 (208.14.167.13) Subject: Sharpening Harry: As you can tell from the enthusiastic response, the sand paper is a goodway tosharpen your tools. I use it to flatten my water stones. But it is nice tosave up vary a bitso occasionally you end up with deep scratches. With hard steel like yourHockblade, the paper wears quickly. At .50 a sheet, it can be a false economy.Water ordiamond stones cut faster and will take you to a higher polish. I knowsome guysbuild great rods with a pocket knife. But when I am planing to my last fewthousandths, a blade freshly sharpened on a 6000 grit water stone helpsme getfiner cuts with less lifting and tearout. Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: I've just received my first plane blade fromRon Hock, and got to thinking about ways to sharpen it. I know awaterstone has many advantages, and I'll probably go ahead and purchaseone. But I've jsut about tapped the budget out for this month, and it'sonly the 10th! In the meantime, I noticed at Lowe's Hardware andBuilding Supply some abrasive paper in 1500 grit, 2500 grit, and evenfiner. What would be the problem with using that abrasive paper(wet/dry) on a hard flat surface like a piece of glass? Would it work,or am I running a risk of messing up a good plane iron? Harry Boyd fbcwin@fsbnet.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622- 8585 Fax 208-726-0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from mrj@seanet.com Sat Sep 13 22:15:29 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA11880 for Subject: Re: hollow-building Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Martin Jensen wrote You are doing great. I NOW completely understand you. I am not hollowfluting. I am just planing out the inside of the cane between bridges(or damns). As I see it, You are not "just" planing - you are doing the thing. Do I getYou right: the thickness of the spline is .070 inches between the dams. Ifso, you are a braver man than me. I would not dare taking away so muchofthe material. She who must be obeyed has, this very day, permitted me to order a copyofthe Best of the Planing Form, so I am looking forward to read it. As to the "Concavism": I am not a structural engineer, which is why Ihavediscussed hollow-building with a couple of professors on the DTU - thedanish equivalence of MTI. They not being infected by splitcanitis stillinsisted, that given the structure of bamboo, removing half of thematerialof the splines would not weaken the rod more than a few percent. Theywereclever guys, they came op with the same solution as Stoner/Winston. Allthat for the price of a couple of beers. "Concavism" chapter 2: When you use a binder, you put even pressure onallsurfaces. Should the pressure be uneven, due to what ever reason, thesidesof the splines will simply not be parallel, which will result in a weakrod, breaking when bent. At least, that is my theory. Think of a u- boat,submitted to an enormous, but even pressure when subsurface. Most ofthemsurface again. You are doing the same thing to the rod: Submitting it to ahuge pressure when binding. Should the splines give in to some degree, astrong glueing would not take place, as the gluelines would not stayparallel? I dont mean to be pompeous, I am just theoretical. When bending a tube, it will take the form of an ellipse. (Boy, this isstrechting my vocabulary to the limits) The 10.000 dollar question is:The"concavism" of your rod, is it on the same flat, as where the rings aremounted? I take it, that you use the rod with the rings pointingforwards. Yes the wall thickness is .070. I just followed instructions as you willsee when you get the Planing form book. In the past I have measured thepower fibers to be around .080 to .090 thou. so taking down to .070 istaking off some of the power fibers. Actually in a couple of place Iwent down to .060 by mistake. I would like to have the glue edges widerthan .070 though as you have mentioned.In regard to binder pressure, you may be right. Too much pressure whengluing would starve the glue joint and the bamboo would be relieved ofthe pressure when the binding cord is removed. I don't appear to havebad glue joints, at least for now, so I may be OK.The concave portions are not on the snake guide side or top and botom ofthe rod as when held for fishing. It is on the side.I am taking the rod out tomorrow for another "test" to catch someSearun Cutthroat. Hope I get a few "test" fish to work the rod.-- Martin Jensen from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 13 22:32:50 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 97-09-13 16:22:55 EDT, you write: About theStoner/Winston patent: It describes the result, not the process, or am Ijust being ignorant? Yes, you are right, it shows the result not how he did it. But it isa very detailed description of the hollow fluting, and I got a fairlygood idea of how to go about duplicating the process from readingthe patent. from my playing around with hollow building I concluded thatonly the big rods really get any benefit from hollowing. On rodsshorter than 8 feet it's really not worth it. Sir Darryl from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Sep 14 06:17:04 1997 Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:16:52 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Garrison: how many rods? On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Tony Young wrote: I think it can. I make all the componants incl reel seats, ferrulesetcand I make them nodeless. I one month made 6 rods using a series ofdipping tanks. Admitedly I'm no Garrison but I believe it can.I haven't repeated this "feat", I wish demand was such I could. Tony That is good going. You also still have time to waste on this list!Do not take this as a put down but from what I can remember you are anew builder? and I guess full of gung ho. Try to picture buildingrods by your methods year after year, imagine the tedium. Imaginedoing it for 40 years. So many Garrison type builders have droppedout over the last 10 years after spending big bucks on fancyadvertising. Even Garrisons apprentice has quit building I believe. Now if could knock out rods fast like Montague or Southbend ...... Theywere not too shabby either, take a look at the cane work. These companysmade money. I would be quite content to leave the posthumous fame toyouguys and build rods for mere mortals. Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod weshall all be backordered for years.Terry What I'm about to write is a reply, I hesitated writing this but .....Why would I take a simple stament of fact like being called a "newbuilder" as a slight? with problem solving when it comes to making my own forms, ferrulesetc.I also, while asking for advise try to always find a better way of doing things. This has saved me $$$$ and not cost much time.IMHO once you get your head around the concepts of making rods experimentation is where it's at. I work with computers for a living and sail a boat with no motor and make rods from grass for a hoby and I leave my cell phone at home, anything to get away from the insane world of bigger, better, faster etc etc of computers. The comment I made re the 6 rods in a month wasn't intended as a boast,in fact at the time I did it I felt pretty bad about it as it couldn't have been called recreation, more a job that had to be done (the circumstances were unusual involving a few people I'd promissed rods for all wanting thembefore I went on an extened sail) and I didn't want to be seen as a "fly by nighter". As far as making rods year after year and getting bored with it goes, I'd have to say it fills me with less dread than looking forward to year after year of sitting in front of a computer cutting code. I don't think I have to worry about it though, as I very much doubt 5% of the public will ever get over the bigger, better, faster, BS, BS, BS etc enought to keep me in business with my "monasticly simple" rods as my rods havebeen described. I like monastic simplicity, they're not roughly made,justsimple. I also don't consider this list a waste of time, it can be time consuming but it's quite nice to login last thing at night and see what familiar names are doing and sometimes offering help to newbies.Frankly I don't believe there is a single person who knows it all and that's the best single thing about this game. Good sailing, or shaving. What ever you're into. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 14 08:32:39 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA3534 +0000 Subject: Re: would'nt it be nice Was:Garrison: how many rods? Gary Dabrowski wrote: WELL SAID TERRY! Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod weshall all be backordered for years.Terry Perhaps one day more of the angling world will realize that there ismoreto fly fishing than putting out a mile of line. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: home.onestop.net/brooksideGRAY WOULD you know where i can get a rod wrapping mach. I own a smallfishing store in nc. and would like to start retry guild on for some ofmy customs please sent e-mail to lhawks@worldnet.att.netthank youlewis hawks from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Sep 14 09:05:22 1997 Subject: Intoduction Hi, My name is Steve. I am a 52 year old postal worker. I have been flyfishing and fly tying since the late sixties. I have refinished a numberof old bamboo rods and made a false start on a rod three years ago. I have been lurking here and reading for a couple of months. I havepicked up a lot of good info. I am ready to start again. I haveGarrisons book and the Kreider book. I am going to do my first rod (Ihope I get far enough to refer to first rod) on a low budget to seeresults before I make a large investment. I have worked as a machinist and tool maker so I am familiar withprecision tools. I have been a woodworker for twenty years. All of thathaving been said my next statement is heeeeelp! If my questions become too stupid or too frequent let me know, untilthat time I am going to continue to ask them. When I have the cane to the stage that I am straightening prior toplaning, does the section need to be dead straight or relativelystraight? If I am straightening and hear fibers crack do I trash thatpiece of cane? If I crack fibers does that mean I didn't have the caneheated enough? I'll leave it hear for now so as to not wear out my welcome. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Sep 14 10:28:26 1997 LAA01196 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:37:43-0400 Subject: Re: hollow-building Carsten I believe Ron Barch published the drawings for the hollow flutingplane - but I cannot find the exact issue. It is driving me nuts for the pasthour trying to find the issue (poss Nr. 41). Ron published it after Bill Fink gotonhim at the last Roscoe Gathering.Since I am in the middle of moving itmakesthings worse. So here's a brief description and hopefully this will help. The key to hollow fluting is having an oval bit / plane blade ormilling tool the will take more from the center of a strip and less from the sides. The plane I made is basically a key lock wooden planewith a 60 degree V in the sole and for a plane blade I took an old drill bit (any hardend round stock will do) and ground it at an angle(30 degrees will do). Grinding it at an angle will result in an oval bitthat will give the hollow flute shape desired. I mount the bit in the plane body - adjust the height and pull strips through. The resultis a nice hollow flute in the pith side of the strip. The hardend steel easily cuts bamboo and can be easily sharpened. But againthe key is getting a oval bit to cut with. Hopes this helps and can someone check the back issuesand see if my failing memory is serving me correctly? Thanks Regards Chris from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Sep 14 11:40:55 1997 Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:40:27 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: hollow-building You're correct. It was an article by Chris Bogart in issue #41 Tony On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Chris Bogart wrote: Carsten I believe Ron Barch published the drawings for the hollow flutingplane - but I cannot find the exact issue. It is driving me nuts for thepast hour trying to find the issue (poss Nr. 41). Ron published it after Bill Finkgot onhim at the last Roscoe Gathering.Since I am in the middle of moving itmakesthings worse. So here's a brief description and hopefully this will help. The key to hollow fluting is having an oval bit / plane blade ormilling tool the will take more from the center of a strip and less from the sides. The plane I made is basically a key lock wooden planewith a 60 degree V in the sole and for a plane blade I took an old drill bit (any hardend round stock will do) and ground it at an angle(30 degrees will do). Grinding it at an angle will result in an oval bitthat will give the hollow flute shape desired. I mount the bit in the plane body - adjust the height and pull strips through. The resultis a nice hollow flute in the pith side of the strip. The hardend steel easily cuts bamboo and can be easily sharpened. But againthe key is getting a oval bit to cut with. Hopes this helps and can someone check the back issuesand see if my failing memory is serving me correctly? Thanks Regards Chris /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from sats@gte.net Sun Sep 14 12:43:23 1997 Subject: Rod stillness and Ferrule Placement The ferrule doesn't bend when the rest of the rod is flexed. Consequentlythere are very high areas of stress on both sides of the ferrule. I haven'tseen very many breaks in cane rods, but the few I've seen (due to pullingon the line, not slamming in a door or sitting on the rod) the break wasabout an inch or two below the ferrule. I have not seen one above theferrule. If anyone has let me know. Ok. I confess, I did it. You may not want to count it, because it was myfirst attempt at "seating" a ferrule (as apposed to just removing, thengluingone back in place). It was a 6ft 6in two piece and I admit to having shaved the area where theferrule joined to fit the ferrule That and the attempt to flair the ferruleinto the bamboo may have created a stress point beyond the normalbamboostolerance. I drilled the male ferrule out and re set it on the top piece,onlythis time I didn't do anything to try to make a smooth fit between the two. Sofar no problem. ...What I would like to see is someone mounting a series of straingauges along the length of a cane rod and a plot of the results. Ihave seen a strain gauge that looks like a piece of flat plastic witha wire down the middle. A current is placed along the wire, and asthe wire is bent the current is changed. The more the wire is deflected,the more the current changes. If you had several of these and tapedthem every few inches along a rod, then flexed the rod, I think wecould get a good idea of how the actual stresses are distributed. Funny you should bring this up. I've just finished building a gage accordingtothe instructions from Don Phillips, (the Tropical angler) The device isn't electronic but works something like this: A balanced pointer arm is extended horizontally. the axis of the arm (A) is inline with the front edge of a clamp (C) below it. A pointer link is droppedafew inches out the arm parallel to A-C A Weight is hung from the bambooat thatpoint and the deflection in inches is read from the device and thefollowingformula is applied: EI = Pl(cube) / 3y Where EI = stiffnessP = applied weightl = test section length y = Deflection clamp, use 10oz of weight and have a deflection of .15 in. the formulawould be El = (10 times 4 cubed ) divided by 3 times .15 Any combination should give roughly the same answer, as long as you keepthelength the same. Of course what you're getting is the average over that4inarea. A series of these would be required to get correct information abouttheactual stiffness of a rod. The advantage of this over the stress curves inHEXRod is that you do not have to apply the entire rod to the formula. You canwork with a fairly short area. For what I'm doing, it's ideal. (Not that Idon't run about a dozen HEX Rod reports before I start messing around withpartsof rods. Don wrote me that he had gotten different reading around the areas whereferrules were located, depending on if the ferrule was in place or not. This isan interesting phenomena and should be better understood by Bamboo rodbuildersand Any one else working in the area. Jon Clark ask about this, the last time I talked to him. I don't know if he'son the list right now or not. I know he's out of town but in this virtualworldthat doesn't mean he's out of pocket. Terry K.Refinishing and rebuilding away...Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from brookside.rod@juno.com Sun Sep 14 13:49:22 1997 14:48:05 EDT Subject: Re: rod winding machines where i can get a rod wrapping mach. I own a small fishing store in nc.and would like to start > retry guild on for some of my customs please thank youlewis hawks The rod wrapping machines offered by seem worth looking at.info@anglersworkshop.com http://www.anglersworkshop.com gary dabrowski from DEMARALON@aol.com Sun Sep 14 16:38:30 1997 Subject: Tonkin Cane Supply Update There has been much talk on the internet regarding the Tonkin Cane supply. Charles H Demarest, Inc is alive and well. Now that the rainy season isoverEileen and I will again be in China at the source in late September toinspect our shipment of l2' x 1-3/4-2" Tonkin. This has been selected forshipment to us only after our personal approval. Of course, we will belooking for our standard requirements - first quality - straight culms -dry- yellow color - minimal markings. Achieving this standard we will be in a position to ship bale lots of 25pieces or 3 piece minimums by late October/early November. Upon our return we will give you a full report. Cordially, Harold Demarest from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sun Sep 14 16:50:19 1997 (CEST) ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:38:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: hollow-building Chris wrote----------The key to hollow fluting is having an oval bit / plane blade ormilling tool the will take more from the center of a strip and less from the sides. Chris Thank You for your explanation. Richard Tyree has offered to snail-mail mea drawing, showing how this hollow-fluting plane is constructed. Iacceptedhis kind offer on the spot, as I cannot wait to see the drawings.Construction of "The Device" will be started immediately. It is going to bemy premature X- mas gift to myself. Who nows, I might even have time tobuild me a new rod! Regards Carsten from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Sep 14 17:05:14 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-39971U10000L10000S0)with SMTP id AAA156 for ;Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:00:12 -0500 Subject: Re: hollow-building Chris Bogart wrote: Ralph It's a shame more people cannot attend the Rodmaker's Gatherings. Thisyear at Roscoe - Tom Smithwick showed his technique on a rod he isbuilding andwe actually glued it up along with a sample section that we latter splitto see howmuch glue filled the void. Also Al Medved had his powered beveler /hollowingmachine which he uses. Also, two years ago I demonstrated a easy tomake hollowfluting plane (copies of plans have been sent to Ron Barch for publishing)and JohnLong demonstrated Bill Waara's jig several years ago at Grayling. PerBrandongave a good talk at the last Corbett Lake Gathering on hollow fluting. So support your local Rodmakers Gathering and you will learn a lotoftid bits. Perhaps there are others in my situation. The Rodbuilder'sGatheringsI've heard about are over 1000 miles from home, or over two full daysdriving time. If anyone out there is involved with a gathering south ofthe Mason-Dixon Line, I'd like to know about it. If not, maybe some ofyou who have more experience than I do would like to put togather aninformal group who meet to swap lies, tell war stories, etc. The FFFSouthern Council Conclave meets in Mt. Home, Arkansas in a few weeks. As I will already have plans to attend, from a selfish point of view,I'd suggest that as a good rendezvous point. A few days ago when Imentioned being from Louisiana, several people responded by saying thatthey were within a few hours drive. I hope we can get something going Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from mrj@seanet.com Sun Sep 14 17:31:12 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25684 for Subject: Re: Intoduction Steve Trauthwein wrote: Hi, My name is Steve. I am a 52 year old postal worker. I have been flyfishing and fly tying since the late sixties. I have refinished a numberof old bamboo rods and made a false start on a rod three years ago. I have been lurking here and reading for a couple of months. I havepicked up a lot of good info. I am ready to start again. I haveGarrisons book and the Kreider book. I am going to do my first rod (Ihope I get far enough to refer to first rod) on a low budget to seeresults before I make a large investment. I have worked as a machinist and tool maker so I am familiar withprecision tools. I have been a woodworker for twenty years. All of thathaving been said my next statement is heeeeelp! If my questions become too stupid or too frequent let me know, untilthat time I am going to continue to ask them. When I have the cane to the stage that I am straightening prior toplaning, does the section need to be dead straight or relativelystraight? If I am straightening and hear fibers crack do I trash thatpiece of cane? If I crack fibers does that mean I didn't have the caneheated enough? I'll leave it hear for now so as to not wear out my welcome. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Pretty much if you hear a crack it is the sound of the bamboo saying "Iwant to go in the trash can please". You probably bent it too much forthe amount of heat you applied. I have found that the straighter thebetter but bacically if the bends are big curves and the strip will sitin the planing groove OK than it is straight enough to plane for me. Anysharp bends will have to be addressed. Also, sometimes after I planeaway some material a new bend will show up. If it is severe enough Iwill address it but again, if thew strip will sit in the form while I amplaning it, I most likely will leave it. I have built 8 rods to date soI am still learning but what I have described works for me up to thispoint.-- Martin Jensen from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 14 17:41:11 1997 (205.236.248.142) Subject: Re: Ferrule Placement SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-12 10:49:28 EDT, you write: .Basically from what I gather, at the point of ferrule placement the rod is built up. from 5" in front of the ferrule and 5" after theflatdimension increases a couple thousands. I don't remember thefigureexactly but that was the idea. I was just wondering if you take ataper from the archive to build do you just figure out where the ferrulewouldgo to make the dimensions equal? The ferrule doesn't bend when the rest of the rod is flexed.Consequentlythere are very high areas of stress on both sides of the ferrule. Ihaven'tseen very many breaks in cane rods, but the few I've seen (due topullingon the line, not slamming in a door or sitting on the rod) the breakwasabout an inch or two below the ferrule. I have not seen one above theferrule. If anyone has let me know. One of the things I am trying toincorporate into a stress anaylsis program I am working on is takingthe stress of the area the ferrule covers and transferring it belowtheferrule for a more realistic protrayal of the stress curve. The question is though, what is the best thing to do to ameliorate the high stress next to the ferrule? Build it up because the thickersectioncan take more stress, or thin it down a few inches below the ferrulesothat the stress is distributed over a longer area? This could beanotherreason for the Cattanach Hinge. What I would like to see is someone mounting a series of straingauges along the length of a cane rod and a plot of the results. Ihave seen a strain gauge that looks like a piece of flat plastic witha wire down the middle. A current is placed along the wire, and asthe wire is bent the current is changed. The more the wire isdeflected,the more the current changes. If you had several of these and tapedthem every few inches along a rod, then flexed the rod, I think wecould get a good idea of how the actual stresses are distributed. Sir Darryl Daryll,might be worth connecting a few electrodes to the old noggin at the sametime!Terry from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Sep 14 17:50:26 1997 SAA07235 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:59:48-0400 Subject: Re: hollow-building Harry Take the Bull by the horns and have a Southern Rodmakers gathering. I know Johnathon Clarke is in Florida, Kube, Hall and others inAtlanta, there are several in TN and I know of several in NC. Take a poll and seewhoanswers. Regional Gatherings are good. Just remember - you are not aloneout there! Regards Chris from kmanno@gti.net Sun Sep 14 18:04:43 1997 SMTP id TAA05071 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 Subject: Rod Building Hello All: I am new to this list and want to start building my firstcane rod...I understand that you can start from scratchwith the "raw" bamboo...But is it possible to get caneblanks?..and finish the rod from this point. I know thismay not be the best way...but I am exploring all alternatives. Thanks in advance. Kent from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Sep 14 18:14:24 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Kent, you can get bamboo blanks from Partridge of England through AnglersWorkshop, also I believe some of the listmembers sell blanks (Am Iright?) I also considered this a while ago since I was doing some rebuilding of oldbamboo rods, but decided to "go for broke". I am currently gathering thetools and supplies I need. Bamboo blanks are not cheap, and you may findit more rewarding to make your own. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Kent Manno Subject: Rod BuildingDate: Sunday, September 14, 1997 4:04 PM Hello All: I am new to this list and want to start building my firstcane rod...I understand that you can start from scratchwith the "raw" bamboo...But is it possible to get caneblanks?..and finish the rod from this point. I know thismay not be the best way...but I am exploring all alternatives. Thanks in advance. Kent from kmanno@gti.net Sun Sep 14 18:45:47 1997 (4.1/4.1) with ESMTP id TAA07192 for ; Subject: Re: Rod Building Robert: Kent, you can get bamboo blanks from Partridge of England throughAnglersWorkshop, also I believe some of the listmembers sell blanks (Am Iright?) I also considered this a while ago since I was doing some rebuilding ofoldbamboo rods, but decided to "go for broke". I am currently gathering thetools and supplies I need. Bamboo blanks are not cheap, and you mayfindit more rewarding to make your own. Yeah...I would like to go from scratch...but I understand the tools can bequite expensive. Do you know how much the blanks are? Thanks, Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Manno kmanno@gti.netsalmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryOperations Director, Camp DelbartonDelbarton School 230 Mendham Rd.Morristown, NJ 07960 973-538-3231, ext. 3372 voice973-538-3231, ext. 3371 FAX+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Anglers Choice Fly ShopSaint John, NB CanadaSales Representative - U.S.A.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Sep 14 19:14:51 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Kent, Anglers Workshop was selling theirs for around 4 to 5 hundred. Idon't have my catalog here or I would tell you exactly. I don't know whatothers charge. I have always had good luck with Anglers, though I have notpurchased any of the blanks they sell. I don't have their web page URL,but I am sure some on the list will have it. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------Yeah...I would like to go from scratch...but I understand the tools canbequite expensive. Do you know how much the blanks are? Thanks, Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Manno kmanno@gti.netsalmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryOperations Director, Camp DelbartonDelbarton School 230 Mendham Rd.Morristown, NJ 07960 973-538-3231, ext. 3372 voice973-538-3231, ext. 3371 FAX+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Anglers Choice Fly ShopSaint John, NB CanadaSales Representative - U.S.A.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Sep 14 19:58:01 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 97-09-14 17:52:31 EDT, you write: Carsten, Chris, Ron Barch:I offered with the stipulation that I receive permission to do so from Ron,and if so, then from Chris. At this time, havn't heard back from Ron.Regards,Richard Tyree from sats@gte.net Sun Sep 14 20:23:10 1997 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions I own two 9ft and one 8 1/2 ft bamboo rods. One has not name and is presumed to be home built. It's fairly slow butwhenyou let the rod do the work it'll cast about 75 ft. for me. (not bad for a roda guy saved from the trash can and gave me, one night in a church parkinglot!)I tried several lines on it and chose a wf7f. Used it this summer on theNorthUmpaua. (didn't EVEN see any fish. But the wife liked the cat at the Inn soImay get a chance to go back). My second rod is a Wright and McGill Stream and Lake. 8 1/2ft. seems tolike an8wt. Both tips are short -- one about 3 in and the other about 4 1/2 in. Itcasts like a rocket, over 80ft. for me. (that's getting into my "best casts"range.) The third is a Shakespeare 9ft. of questionable blood line. Very fast, evenforgraphite, but it pays for it in weight. It's just two damn heavy. I'd like tosoften the action a bit and lose a little weight. I've been thinking aboutallthose rods that have lost a tip and other rods that have been broken just infront of, or just after the ferrule. I wonder how much the fishing abilityischanged? Maybe I could shorten this guy up a little and fish him. He'dmake aGreat Bass rod. I don't want to use him for parts, but he's too heavy to useright now. Of the three, the first is the best. Probably because I can let the rod tothework. So the question then becomes, should longer rods be slower rods? Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Sun Sep 14 20:23:10 1997 Subject: Re: would'nt it be nice Was:Garrison: how many rods? WELL SAID TERRY! Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod weshall all be backordered for years.Terry Perhaps one day more of the angling world will realize that there is moreto fly fishing than putting out a mile of line. Don't hold your breath. About the time that happens you'll be able to pickup alot of Sage and Orvis plastic at garage sales real cheap. ("I thought yousaidall I had to do was Cast!") Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 14 20:32:12 1997 (205.236.249.244) Subject: Re: hollow-building Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-14 17:52:31 EDT, you write: Thank You for your explanation. Richard Tyree has offered tosnail-mail mea drawing, showing how this hollow-fluting plane is constructed. Iacceptedhis kind offer on the spot, as I cannot wait to see the drawings. Regards Carsten Carsten, Chris, Ron Barch:I offered with the stipulation that I receive permission to do so fromRon,and if so, then from Chris. At this time, havn't heard back from Ron. Regards,Richard Tyree Richard,I do not know much about hollow built rods but I was under theimpression that hollow building was to keep the weight down fortournament casting because the weight of the rod was part of equation? Do you think that hollow building has any relevance other than anexercise?Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 14 20:40:52 1997 (205.236.249.244) Subject: Re: would'nt it be nice Was:Garrison: how many rods? Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: WELL SAID TERRY! Lets face it if 5% of flyfishermen decided to purchase a cane rod we shall all be backordered for years.Terry Perhaps one day more of the angling world will realize that there ismoreto fly fishing than putting out a mile of line. Don't hold your breath. About the time that happens you'll be able topick up alot of Sage and Orvis plastic at garage sales real cheap. ("I thoughtyou saidall I had to do was Cast!") Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net Terry,When I first started building bamboo rods I was not that happy withgraphite but they have come a long way since then and I must grudginglyadmit that some are very good. If I see a Sage going cheap at a garagesale I may perhaps pick it up for my collection and perhaps use it andmoan all the time.The uvver Terry from mrj@seanet.com Sun Sep 14 21:45:33 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00776 for Subject: Re: hollow-building Terence Ackland wrote: Do you think that hollow building has any relevance other than anexercise?Terry Terry,My rod is an 8.5 ft for a 6 wt. I patterned this off of a WM victorymodel that weighed in at 4.5 oz. My rod is is not an exact copy as thebutt section is smaller in diameter and I did modify the taper in someother places so the diameter is smaller. My rod weighs in at 3.5 oz. Ibelieve that I can most definitely notice the difference between thetwo. The 4.5 oz rod whips me and the 3.5 oz rod I definitely notice butI can fish it all day. I can believe that hollow built may have startedbecause of the reason you mention but for me it is a noticeable weightsaving. In a 7.5 ft rod I would probably not use the hollow method.-- Martin Jensen from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 14 22:12:34 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun,14 Sep 1997 23:12:29 EDT Subject: Tapers? So here is the question. I was looking at the taper archives, trying tofigure out the stress curves and what not. I have picked several rods tostart work on and had a question for you all. Take Chris Bogart'sShenandoah Sweetheart for example (hope you don't mind me building oneChris) The rod is a 7' 2pc. The taper dimensions only go up to the 80"mark. That leaves another 4". I am assuming there is something I don'tknow about. Do you just make the next 5" the same dimension as the 80"mark? In other rods I looked at there are no dimensions after 2" from thecork handle for obvious reasons. When I looked at one rod it said swellto x. (X being a given dimension) Is the swell a straight line or what?This is inexperience talking. I just don't want to botch things up. speak. Well, I took my girlfriend fishing Sat. on the West Branch of theDeleware and christened it. Yeah! Thanks for the help in advance! Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from bokstrom@axionet.com Sun Sep 14 22:15:05 1997 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions ----------From: Terry L. Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt QuestionsDate: Sunday, September 14, 1997 6:01 PM So the question then becomes, should longer rods be slower rods? I can't stay out of this any longer. After 30 or so rods from 8'9" to 9',the answer to the question is a very definite Yes! A 9' 8 wt. with a goodtaper can be fished all day with no problem. Don't need hollow buildingeither.Use progressive tapers such as Garrison's even though his big rods aremuchtoo fast, and don't bother with the swelled butt. It's better to feel theaction right into the hand. John from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Sep 14 22:52:56 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Kent, if you do decide you would like to buy your cane blanks, I sell someofmine. the price is $400.00 for my std. two piece with two tips. $450.00 three piece with two tips or custom tapers. They come with the ferrulesalreadymounted and fitted. my std. rods are- 6ft. 3wt-- 7ft. 3/4 wt. and 7ft. 6in.4/5 wt. Dave LeClair from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Sep 14 23:47:23 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Kent, Cabela's - 1(800)237-4444 - sells Partridge 3 to 6 wt. blanks for$330- 555. Kurt from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Sep 14 23:52:21 1997 Subject: Re: Tapers? In a message dated 97-09-14 23:14:52 EDT, you write: The taper dimensions only go up to the 80"mark. That leaves another 4". I am assuming there is something I don'tknow about. Do you just make the next 5" the same dimension as the 80"mark? In other rods I looked at there are no dimensions after 2" fromthecork handle for obvious reasons. When I looked at one rod it said swellto x. (X being a given dimension) Is the swell a straight line or what?This is inexperience talking. I just don't want to botch things up. The last 12 inches or so are going to be under the handle and reelseat. The dimensions aren't critical at all. Just continue the lastdiameter to the end, or continue the taper as long as it fits insidethe bore of your reel seat. A swelled butt is an oversized diameter just before the handleand continuing under the handle. It makes a striking lookingrod, but really doesn't do much as far as action of the rod. Itcould aid in balancing the rod. As far as how to do it, that'sthe reason Frank Armbrusters planing forms have set screws2.5 inches apart down by the deeper end and 5 inches aparteverywhere else. A swelled butt also makes fitting a handle and reel seat moredifficult. Sir Darryl from angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com Mon Sep 15 02:55:33 1997 env- from (angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com) (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) JAA17406; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:55:22 +0200 09:55:21 +0200 "Re: hollow-building" (Sep 13, 6:41pm) Subject: Re: hollow-building Hello In France there is a association of people making FF bamboo rods (ClubFancaisdu refendu). One of the persons in this club is mister J. De Lespinay. Thisgentleman wrote a book (In french) in which the hollow building techniqueisexplained in detail. The person who develop this technique is mister DanielBremend who maked more that 80 rods using his hollow building technique.D.Bremend allways tell me that this technique is so easy that he don't seewhy weshould make rods without using it. If someone is interested in this book Icanput you in contact with J. De Lespinay. Angel. On Sep 13, 6:41pm, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Carsten_J=F8rgensen?= wrote:Subject: Re: hollow-building [ plain textEncoded with "quoted-printable" ] :Ralph Moon wrote Carsten This is presumptious of me, since hollow building is one ofthose projects for my next rod. I still have not done it. However, Ihave a tool I was intending to use. Dremel makes a small round millingbit . It is simply a fluted round ball on the end of a shank. Withsome sort of jig to enable you to hold it steady I think it might be Ralph -- ______________________________________________________________________ Angel Contreras email: angel@neu.sgi.com Silicon Graphics Desktop Software vmail: 56758 ch. des Rochettes 2Coordinator tel: +41-32-8433600 CH-2016 CortaillodEuropean I/S fax: +41-32-8433909 Switzerland from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Sep 15 05:43:49 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 97-09-14 21:33:31 EDT, you write: TerryOther than as you mentioned for larger rods, not much relevancy for me.Because it dosn't take much of a rod to be an arm buster for me and I dowantsome larger rods, I will build them hollow. I think using Bill Waara'shollow fluting form will be much better than the scraping methodpreviouslyused so will go that route. Have seen no indication Bill's device will beavail on the market, so will probably make one per Chris's Planing Formarticle. Hollow building has been fun and fun is why I stay in this hobby.Relevancy, I guess, is best judged through the eye of the beholder. rodthat I was having trouble obtaining, tho it was then currently being made.What got you started? Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Sep 15 06:48:57 1997 Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions In a message dated 97-09-14 22:59:22 EDT, you write: TerryInteresting question. Recently cast a 9' Montague using a # 9 line. It hasa fairly fast, tippy action and that was the first 9' bamboo experience thatI really liked. It casts comfortably for me to distances well beyond mynorm. I own a 9', #7/8 with a higher pedigree that is quite a bit slower.To me it is an arm buster except for short casts. Given the choice, wouldtake the faster of the two rods any day. I realize, of course, that this isa statistic of one.Regards,RTyree from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Sep 15 07:23:48 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA10033 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Tapers? I just finished Chris' Yellow Rose, a 7' 2-piece 2 weight. I wonderedabout the same thing. I just added for the additional length and keptit the same dimensions, as you suggested. I've also built hisShenandoah Sweetheart, which turned out rather well. But, the 2 weightsomehow feels better and also casts a 4 weight well. I must say that this is the best rod I've made to date! It casts a 2and 3 weight forward XPS and a 4 weight long belly with no problemswhatsoever. You really don't notice much of a difference in loadingwith the different lines. A great all around small stream rod! I thankChris and all the others who give away great tapers such as this one.Thanks guys. Brian Thoman -----Original Message-----From: Jon Lintvet [SMTP:jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu]Sent: Sunday, September 14, 1997 11:12 PM Subject: Tapers? So here is the question. I was looking at the taper archives, tryingtofigure out the stress curves and what not. I have picked several rodstostart work on and had a question for you all. Take Chris Bogart'sShenandoah Sweetheart for example (hope you don't mind me building oneChris) The rod is a 7' 2pc. The taper dimensions only go up to the80"mark. That leaves another 4". I am assuming there is something Idon'tknow about. Do you just make the next 5" the same dimension as the80"mark? In other rods I looked at there are no dimensions after 2" fromthecork handle for obvious reasons. When I looked at one rod it saidswellto x. (X being a given dimension) Is the swell a straight line orwhat?This is inexperience talking. I just don't want to botch things up. so tospeak. Well, I took my girlfriend fishing Sat. on the West Branch oftheDeleware and christened it. Yeah! Thanks for the help in advance! Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from s.wang@cummins.com Mon Sep 15 07:50:37 1997 07:49:28 -0500 smap (3.2) (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/04Mar96-1128AM) 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: Hollow-fluting SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-13 01:31:42 EDT, you write: Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form of aplaneform for hollow-fluting? It doesn't show the actual plane that was used, but if you canget a hold of Patent No. 2,537,488 by L. D. Stoner it showshow he hollow fluted his cane rods. Also Patent No. 1,932,986shows how E. C. Powell built hollow rods. If you can receiveattachments I can email a scan of them to you. Maybe wecan put them up on Jerry Fosters web page if there isenough interest. Sir DarrylPlease do, Sir D from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Sep 15 08:22:26 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id JAA04178 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Hollow-fluting Yes, please put them on the web page. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Simon Wang [SMTP:s.wang@cummins.com]Sent: Monday, September 15, 1997 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Hollow-fluting SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-13 01:31:42 EDT, you write: Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form ofaplaneform for hollow-fluting? It doesn't show the actual plane that was used, but if you canget a hold of Patent No. 2,537,488 by L. D. Stoner it showshow he hollow fluted his cane rods. Also Patent No. 1,932,986shows how E. C. Powell built hollow rods. If you can receiveattachments I can email a scan of them to you. Maybe wecan put them up on Jerry Fosters web page if there isenough interest. Sir DarrylPlease do, Sir D from pehs_jxs@MAVCA.OHIO.GOV Mon Sep 15 08:39:47 1997 Subject: Bamboo Identification Help Listers, I am new to this list and new to bamboo rods as well. I have made atemporary web page (http://www.mavca.ohio.gov/penta/bamboo.htm) showingthe rods I have and would like some help identifying them. Thanks in advance! John from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Sep 15 09:33:25 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Hollow-fluting Sir DarrylCould you send me the same information please. Patrick ----------From: Simon Wang[SMTP:s.wang@cummins.com] Sent: Monday, September 15, 1997 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Hollow-fluting SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-13 01:31:42 EDT, you write: Hello out there Is there anyone who would happen to have drawings of some form ofaplaneform for hollow-fluting? It doesn't show the actual plane that was used, but if you canget a hold of Patent No. 2,537,488 by L. D. Stoner it showshow he hollow fluted his cane rods. Also Patent No. 1,932,986shows how E. C. Powell built hollow rods. If you can receiveattachments I can email a scan of them to you. Maybe wecan put them up on Jerry Fosters web page if there isenough interest. Sir DarrylPlease do, Sir D from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Sep 15 09:47:59 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 9/15/97 10:49:49 AM, you wrote: Richard - Nice to see you back on the list. I was away this weekend orwouldhave weighed in sooner on this. As Chris Bogart mentioned; he, John Zimny,and myself put on a demo of building and gluing up a hollow built rod attheCatskill gathering. I used a combination of your methods and those ofJosselin deLespinay to actually do the hollowing. Basically, he uses doubleface tape to put the strips side by side on the bench top. Shims of 50 to 70thousanths thick are placed on either side. The hollows are then cut all atonce. I estimate hollowing time at about an hour per section. I borroweddeLespinay's book from Ron Barch, and promised him an article in return,soI'm not going take a lot of bandwidth here. The rod I built is a very stout 8footer ( Alosa taper, TPF # 32 ) and the hollowing seemed necessary. Ingeneral, I doubt that hollow building would be worthwhile on shorter orlighter rods. I also want to strongly agree with John Bokstrom's statement that a longrodshould be softer. I would not normally presume to tell anyone else whatkindof rod they should like, but if you are going to make repetitive long castsover big water, John's ideas are worth listening to. -- Tom from jparker@union-tel.com Mon Sep 15 10:00:14 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0600 Subject: Re: Tonkin Cane Supply Update Harold and Eileen,Have a great trip and bring back some of your great cane.Jon from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Mon Sep 15 10:06:58 1997 Subject: Intoduction Steve-If the cane strips go "CRACK" or just crackle - throw the strip away.Straightening is a relatively quiet process and the cane shouldn't make anynoise. The crack is the sound of bamboo fibers breaking. What kind of heatsource are you using to straighten with? Garrison/Kreider books use analcohol lamp, but most builders now use a hot air heat gun. The heat gungives you more control and less chance of toasting the bamboo too much(myfirst stips turned to charcoal!) Heat the bamboo until it goes "plastic"ie. it will go from stiff to pretty flexible- then straighten slowly -don't force it . Straight (as John Zimmy says) is straight! Actually if youget the big kinks and serious bends out as long as the strip will lay inyour planing form any gentle/long sweeps will take care of themselveswhenyou heat treat. Since you've already got both Garrison + Kreider , I'drecomend you make one more investment of about $40.00 and get WayneCattanach's book or video. Same info on both but the video lets you watchWayne build a rod step by step - it answers lots of questions and will saveyou lots of frustration it's also a more current work than the other twowith some newer tools/innovations. from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Mon Sep 15 10:55:20 1997 Subject: Rod Building Kent-Rod blanks are also available from: Len Codella - Heritage SportingCollectibles, 2201 South Carnegie Dr.,Inverness, Florida34450,(352)637-5454. His spring '97 catalog had 11 rod blanks listedstarting at $200.00 for 1 tip blanks. Bob Corsetti, Rods&Reels, 17MassaoitRd.,Nashua, NH 03063, (603)886-0411. Summer '97 catalog has 2 blanksetsboth 71/2',5wt- 2tip for $325.00. Carmine Lisella, 11 Wesley Rd., Congers,NY 10920, (914)268-9252 had 3 original Leonard blank sets 71/2-8' ,5/6wt building the best single investment (IMHO) would be a copy of WayneCattanach's book or video on bamboo rod building. Either will give you agood idea what you're getting into for about a $40.00 investment. Feelfree to e-mail me off list if you have any questions. Regards Dennis Higham 76250,1771@compuserve.com from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Mon Sep 15 14:20:22 1997 (CEST) ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:05:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: hollow-building Richard Due to some technical error I don't know, if You received my previousmessage. If so disregard this. If not: I realize that You have to get somesort of acceptance before distributing an article, You did not wrote orpublished Yourself. I do appriciate Your effort, and if I blundered in someway, please accept my apologies. To the rest of You who have already answered my questions : Joining thislist has given me information and sound advice unavailable otherwise.Thanks very much indeed. Regards Carsten Jorgensen from sats@gte.net Mon Sep 15 16:43:03 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Kent, Cabela's - 1(800)237-4444 - sells Partridge 3 to 6 wt. blanks for$330- 555. Kurt Cabela's also sells Sharpes Scottie Blanks for from $160 to $195 plusshipping. (Tackle Craft '97, bottom right, page 5) Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Sep 15 20:47:00 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building Richard, I got into this crazy business(?) for the same reason you did-I knew Icouldn't find what I wanted on the market- oh, well I guess I'll keeptrying.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Sep 15 20:48:20 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Garrison: how many rods? Tony,Amen.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Sep 15 20:48:36 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building Carsten,Sir Darryl, Martin, etc.I've been hollow building for about 6 years, off and on. I simply tapethe backs of the strips as you would for wrapping, slice the wraps and laythe strips backs down,apex up and plane the apex down 'til each one is onehalf the width of the external flats. I often don't do the tip section but ifI do I plane the bottom third only.So far I've had no failures.Hank. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Sep 15 21:09:14 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building KentRon Barch has some Leonard Duracane blanks available.Regards,RTyree from kmanno@gti.net Mon Sep 15 21:19:07 1997 (4.1/4.1) with ESMTP id WAA28742 for ; Subject: Re: Rod Building Are these original Leonards or copies...?How can I get in touch with him? ----------From: Fallcreek9@aol.com Subject: Re: Rod BuildingDate: Monday, September 15, 1997 10:08 PM KentRon Barch has some Leonard Duracane blanks available.Regards,RTyree from kmanno@gti.net Mon Sep 15 21:19:50 1997 (4.1/4.1) with ESMTP id WAA28782 for ; Subject: Re: Rod Building Thanks...I'll check it out. ----------From: Terry L. Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: Rod BuildingDate: Monday, September 15, 1997 5:20 PM Kent, Cabela's - 1(800)237-4444 - sells Partridge 3 to 6 wt. blanks for$330- 555. Kurt Cabela's also sells Sharpes Scottie Blanks for from $160 to $195 plusshipping. (Tackle Craft '97, bottom right, page 5) Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jp Mon Sep 15 23:25:07 1997 NAA11878 (JST) Subject: Re: Andy Royer's Cane Tuesday, 16th September 1997 Dear Thomas, I've got the Marden book, and despite all the hype, it is a fine book butIMNSHO not the best book written on tonkin ... half of it is a 1930's reporton Tonkin cane, which could use some dusting by some more research, andthepictures are polaroid quality ... for a book so small @ $17.95 plusshipping, I expected something better. Check it out at the library. Cheers, Christian Home OfficeMr. Christian ThalackerMansion Miyake #303 Otaru University of CommerceKita 16 Nishi 3 International Students CenterKita-ku 001 Sapporo Room 157Hokkaido - Japan Otaru - Hokkaido - Japan Email: g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jpYes, I am just a number Thomas Penrose wrote: On Tuesday I met Andy Royer from Seattle Bamboo Hardwoods. He wasvisiting Bend, and stopped by to show me some photographs of his trip toChina to purchase Tonkin cane. I asked Andy if I could pick out somephotos to put up on my website, since they could be of interest to anumber of builders. I understand that Luis Marden's book, The Angler'sBamboo, also has similar images showing Tonkin in various stages ofpreparation for export, but I have not seen the book yet.In any case, the site can be found at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/china.htmI have not seen the cane yet, which is supposed to arrive and go throughcustoms in the next couple of weeks, but I have been impressed by thephotos and what Andy told me of his selection process. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Tue Sep 16 06:23:43 1997 04:23:09 -0700 Subject: Re: Rod Building Richard: What is Ron Barch's e-mail address? Thanks. --Rich------------------------------ KentRon Barch has some Leonard Duracane blanks available.Regards,RTyree ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 19:13:56-0700 Subject: Re: Rod Building from kmanno@gti.net Tue Sep 16 08:04:33 1997 Subject: Re: No requests found Morning All: I just picked up a Heddon Model 13 last night from a friend of mine...I had a couple of questions: 1. Although the finish is quite good, will some of the valueof the rod be lost if it is refinished? 2. If you think refinishing is OK, who do you recommend to do it? And do you know approx.cost? 3. Can you date this rod for me? I understand that it might be circa 1950 or so...? Any historybehind it? (Keane's book does not mentionthis model) 4. What price range does this rod usually sell Sorry to be so long-winded...Thanks in advanceyou all have been tremendously helpful. Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Tue Sep 16 08:42:20 1997 06:41:44 -0700 Subject: Re: No requests found Kent: 1. How long is the rod?2. Does it have an extra tip?3. Are all sections full length? Mike Sinclair's books would be a better reference for Heddons. Dick Spurrhasboth for sale: http://www/gorp.com/bamboo.htm If the rod doesn't need refinishing, don't do it. However, unless there'ssomething truly collectable about it, a good refinish shouldn't de-value itand may actually improve its worth. --Rich------------------------------ Morning All: I just picked up a Heddon Model 13 last night from a friend of mine...I had a couple of questions: 1. Although the finish is quite good, will some of the valueof the rod be lost if it is refinished? 2. If you think refinishing is OK, who do you recommend to do it? And do you know approx.cost? 3. Can you date this rod for me? I understand that it might be circa 1950 or so...? Any historybehind it? (Keane's book does not mentionthis model) 4. What price range does this rod usually sell Sorry to be so long-winded...Thanks in advanceyou all have been tremendously helpful. Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 06:17:15-0700 bygti.net (4.1/4.1) with SMTP id JAA19681 for; Tue, Subject: Re: No requests found from kmanno@gti.net Tue Sep 16 09:03:33 1997 Subject: Heddon Rich: 1. How long is the rod? 8' 2. Does it have an extra tip? Yes...One tip has all the original wraps....One tip has one wrap thatwas re- done. 3. Are all sections full length? Yes. Mike Sinclair's books would be a better reference for Heddons. DickSpurr hasboth for sale: http://www/gorp.com/bamboo.htm I'll check it out. If the rod doesn't need refinishing, don't do it. However, unless there'ssomething truly collectable about it, a good refinish shouldn't de- valueitand may actually improve its worth. It really doesn't need it.... Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Tue Sep 16 09:50:44 1997 97 07:50:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Heddon Kent: Some additional info: The Model 13 is a relatively rare model, I think it was added to the Heddonline after 1945, sometimes called the "Lucky Angler" model. A few morequestions: 1. Is it 3 pc or 2pc? 2. Any markings on the rod shaft? 3. What color are the wraps (should be yellow/gold tipped black) --Rich------------------------------ Rich: 1. How long is the rod? 8' 2. Does it have an extra tip? Yes...One tip has all the original wraps....One tip has one wrap thatwas re- done. 3. Are all sections full length? Yes. Mike Sinclair's books would be a better reference for Heddons. DickSpurrhasboth for sale: http://www/gorp.com/bamboo.htm I'll check it out. If the rod doesn't need refinishing, don't do it. However, unless there'ssomething truly collectable about it, a good refinish shouldn't de- valueitand may actually improve its worth. It really doesn't need it.... Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 07:10:07-0700 bygti.net (4.1/4.1) with SMTP id KAA23213 for; Tue, Subject: Heddon from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Sep 16 09:52:58 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA00122; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:52:58 - 0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions]] 88E359828DB220965E38CE54" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 88E359828DB220965E38CE54 The following is forwarded for Reed Curry: --------------88E359828DB220965E38CE54 head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id VAA06643; Mon, 15 Sep1997 21:01:29 -0400 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02575 for Organization: Remove "misdirect." for replies Subject: [Fwd: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7B7B1FCF6049 Chris,I can't "Send" to the rodmakers list. Did the following ever getposted? If not, would you pass it on for me? Thanks.BTW, how was the Catskills gathering?Best regards,Reed --------------7B7B1FCF6049 Organization: Remove "misdirect." for replies Subject: Re: Rod/Line Wt Questions TERRY FINGER wrote: Eric Koehler wrote:I'm interested to hear some opinions about possible limitations oflong and heavy split cane rods. Not from a structural/constructionstandpoint, but from the standpoint of the angler fishing all day. Thequestion popped into my head the other day as I was casting a 9.5'8/9. I was working way too hard (in 96 degree weather) to have fun. Does anyone out there that makes and/or uses heavy cane rods on aroutine basis have any insight? Should I hit the weight room beforemy next outing? I was also wondering about using a "hollow" cane rod to cut down onthe weight or even a spey rod to spread the load around. (Probablyget some mighty strange looks using a spey rod in Texas!) Thanks,Eck Eric:I don't have any rods quite as big as the one you were using, but Iregularly use 8- to 9-foot, 7- to 8-weight cane rods for bass onsmall streams. Personally I find carrying a few extra ounces muchless tiring than the rapid whiplash motion necessary to try to gettoo-stiff graphite to bend, especially on short casts. Some randomthoughts: 1. In the small bass streams I fish I'm casting relatively big flies(#1 to #2) but I'm usually making short casts (30 to 40 feet).Graphite just doesn't load well for me under these conditions, but agood 7- or 8-weight cane rod casts a big fly with little effort.Where long casts are required all day long (saltwater, salmon,steelhead, etc.) graphite probably has more merit, although it'sstill not very pretty to look at. 2. The rods must be of good quality; poor rods of any size can betiring to cast. My rods are all old, and some of the old makersreally knew how to make a good, big rod. 3. Probably because of the influence of graphite, I see many anglersusing reels that I would consider too small and light for a cane rod.A slightly heavier reel moves the balance point of the rod towardthe reel and makes the rod feel lighter when casting. Clearly, cane is at its best in smaller rods, but the larger ones canbe nice, too. Hope this helps, Terry Fingertfinger@services.state.mo.usEric,I agree with Terry. I use long cane rods almost exclusively. Theserange from 3wt to 8 wt in 9 - 10 feet. The better rods are a joy to castall day long. For example, I have a 10' 6wt. that is perfect for amedium size, rocky, fast trout stream I often fish. I can manipulate theline more easily and keep more line off the water than with a shorterrod, and I don't have to false cast as much as I would with a stiffgraphite. Anecdote: I was fishing a local stream recently with a 9' 6wtF.E.Thomas (68 years old). Nearby two others were casting drys, as well.I happened to notice that with the faster action of their graphite rods,they were false casting 3 times as much as I. I am not a good caster(tho' better since some lessons from Chris and Steve) but the longer,slower, heavier cane rod had me relaxed while they were Working. Re: weight, I use heavy reels, thus putting a good mass below thegrip. The difference in weight between a 7' 6wt. and a 10' 6 wt. is, often,only a few ounces. IMO, if the proper balance is achieved in rod, line,and physique (also temperament), any length cane rod will be enjoyableto cast.BTW, For a true power-house rod I have one of Chris Bogart's 9'6"8wts.This is a *pleasure* to cast, especially for distance.Best regards,Reed --------------7B7B1FCF6049-- --------------88E359828DB220965E38CE54-- from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Tue Sep 16 11:25:19 1997 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue,16 Sep 1997 11:24:54 CDT Subject: Re: ferrules OK! To recap making your own ferrules: we can get N/S tube and bar stock from Dave LeClair, electroplating supplies from Caswell, and instructions on turning ferrules from from bar stock from Tony Young. Where might I find instructions on making ferrules from tube? --- Grayson from kmanno@gti.net Tue Sep 16 11:36:06 1997 Subject: Re: Heddon Some additional info: The Model 13 is a relatively rare model, I think it was added to theHeddonline after 1945, sometimes called the "Lucky Angler" model. A fewmorequestions: 1. Is it 3 pc or 2pc? 3 pc. 2. Any markings on the rod shaft? Name (circular) and some other info... 3. What color are the wraps (should be yellow/gold tipped black) Sounds right... --Rich------------------------------Date: 9/16/97 7:11 AM From: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Rich: 1. How long is the rod? 8' 2. Does it have an extra tip? Yes...One tip has all the original wraps....One tip has one wrap thatwas re- done. 3. Are all sections full length? Yes. Mike Sinclair's books would be a better reference for Heddons. DickSpurrhasboth for sale: http://www/gorp.com/bamboo.htm I'll check it out. If the rod doesn't need refinishing, don't do it. However, unless there'ssomething truly collectable about it, a good refinish shouldn't de- valueitand may actually improve its worth. It really doesn't need it.... Kent +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------Received: by cpqm.saic.com with ADMIN;16 Sep 1997 07:10:43 -0800Return-Path: Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by cpmx.mail.saic.com; Tue, 16 Sep 9707:10:07- 0700 Received: from kmanno.delbarton.org (www.delbarton.org gti.net (4.1/4.1) with SMTP id KAA23213 for; Tue, Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:04:08 +0000 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Kent Manno" Subject: Heddon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BITX-pmrqc: 1X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Each fly is a dream we cast out to foolfish." Lee Wulff, 1980.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Kent H. Mannokmanno@gti.net or salmon2@nbnet.nb.caDepartment of HistoryCamp Delbarton, Operations DirectorDelbarton SchoolMorristown, NJ 07960201- 538-3231, 3372201-538-3231, 3371 FAXhttp://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/salmon2/index.html+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 16 12:00:53 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 97-09-15 15:22:14 EDT, you write: Carsten-No problem here and no apology necessary. Have not heard from Chris; willadvise when the material is underway.Best Regards,Richard from flyfisher@circle.net Tue Sep 16 12:04:44 1997 Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:37:45 -0400 FLYFISH@LSV.UKY.EDU,lawdevil@ix.netcom.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,sdavenpo@avana.net,kreutzer@frii.com, Walt.Whitman@RHTelCo.Com,troutnc@NETMCR.COMSubject: Changing ISP I am changing my ISP. My new E-mail address is flyfisher@circle.net. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 16 13:06:58 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03230 for Subject: Re: hollow-building FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Carsten,Sir Darryl, Martin, etc.I've been hollow building for about 6 years, off and on. I simply tapethe backs of the strips as you would for wrapping, slice the wraps andlaythe strips backs down,apex up and plane the apex down 'til each one isonehalf the width of the external flats. I often don't do the tip section but ifI do I plane the bottom third only.So far I've had no failures.Hank. Hank,You plane accross the length of the strip? No problems doing that?-- Martin Jensen from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Sep 16 13:25:02 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue,16 Sep 1997 14:24:53 EDT Subject: Garrison Tapers? This may be an abomination of a question, but how did Garrison code hisrods. 202 vs 202e ...and so on. I want to start working on one but Idon't really know what line weight I am building them for other than tipand butt dimensions. (and I don't really know that either. By theway...I am getting the book for my 21st. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Sep 16 13:42:50 1997 Subject: Rod Building RO>Kent-RO>Rod blanks are also available from: Len Codella - Heritage SportingRO>Collectibles, 2201 South Carnegie Dr.,Inverness, FloridaRO>34450,(352)637-5454. His spring '97 catalog had 11 rod blanks listedRO>starting at $200.00 for 1 tip blanks. Bob Corsetti, Rods&Reels, 17MassaoitRO>Rd.,Nashua, NH 03063, (603)886-0411. Summer '97 catalog has 2 blanksetsRO>both 71/2',5wt- 2tip for $325.00. Carmine Lisella, 11 Wesley Rd.,Congers,RO>NY 10920, (914)268-9252 had 3 original Leonard blank sets 71/2-8' ,5/6wtRO>for $295.00 ea. Hope this helps. If your thinking of starting bamboo rodRO>building the best single investment (IMHO) would be a copy of WayneRO>Cattanach's book or video on bamboo rod building. Either will give you aRO>good idea what you're getting into for about a $40.00 investment. FeelRO>free to e-mail me off list if you have any questions.RO>RO> Regards RO>RO> Dennis HighamRO>RO> 76250,1771@compuserve.comRO> Dennis, Is the spring Heritage catalog the latest one? Here I thought Iwas dropped from Len's mailing list. Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com Wishful collector of Gillum and Dickerson rods - owner of Montague, H-Iand Heddon rods from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Sep 16 13:48:39 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building RO>In a message dated 9/15/97 10:49:49 AM, you wrote: RO>some larger rods, I will build them hollow. >> RO>Richard - Nice to see you back on the list. I was away this weekend orwouldRO>have weighed in sooner on this. As Chris Bogart mentioned; he, JohnZimny,RO>and myself put on a demo of building and gluing up a hollow built rod attheRO>Catskill gathering. I used a combination of your methods and those ofRO>Josselin deLespinay to actually do the hollowing. Basically, he usesdoubleRO>face tape to put the strips side by side on the bench top. Shims of 50to 70RO>thousanths thick are placed on either side. The hollows are then cut allatRO>once. I estimate hollowing time at about an hour per section. IborrowedRO>deLespinay's book from Ron Barch, and promised him an article inreturn, soRO>I'm not going take a lot of bandwidth here. The rod I built is a verystoutRO>footer ( Alosa taper, TPF # 32 ) and the hollowing seemed necessary. InRO>general, I doubt that hollow building would be worthwhile on shorterorRO>lighter rods.RO>I also want to strongly agree with John Bokstrom's statement that along rodRO>should be softer. I would not normally presume to tell anyone elsewhat kindRO>of rod they should like, but if you are going to make repetitive longcastsRO>over big water, John's ideas are worth listening to. -- Tom Would a Dremel Router jig help with the above? Don BurnsFlyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Sep 16 14:51:37 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA16532; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:51:30 - 0400 Subject: Re: hollow-building Don I see no reason it would not work. Chris flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>In a message dated 9/15/97 10:49:49 AM, you wrote: RO> RO>some larger rods, I will build them hollow. >> RO>Richard - Nice to see you back on the list. I was away this weekendor wouldRO>have weighed in sooner on this. As Chris Bogart mentioned; he, JohnZimny,RO>and myself put on a demo of building and gluing up a hollow built rodat theRO>Catskill gathering. I used a combination of your methods and those ofRO>Josselin deLespinay to actually do the hollowing. Basically, he usesdoubleRO>face tape to put the strips side by side on the bench top. Shims of 50to 70RO>thousanths thick are placed on either side. The hollows are then cutall atRO>once. I estimate hollowing time at about an hour per section. IborrowedRO>deLespinay's book from Ron Barch, and promised him an article inreturn, soRO>I'm not going take a lot of bandwidth here. The rod I built is a verystoutRO>footer ( Alosa taper, TPF # 32 ) and the hollowing seemed necessary.InRO>general, I doubt that hollow building would be worthwhile on shorterorRO>lighter rods.RO>I also want to strongly agree with John Bokstrom's statement that along rodRO>should be softer. I would not normally presume to tell anyone elsewhat kindRO>of rod they should like, but if you are going to make repetitive longcastsRO>over big water, John's ideas are worth listening to. -- Tom Would a Dremel Router jig help with the above? Don BurnsFlyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Sep 16 15:10:01 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-39971U10000L10000S0)with SMTP id AAA281 for ;Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:04:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers? Jon Lintvet wrote: This may be an abomination of a question, but how did Garrison code hisrods. 202 vs 202e ...and so on. I want to start working on one but Idon't really know what line weight I am building them for other than tipand butt dimensions. (and I don't really know that either. By theway...I am getting the book for my 21st. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 Jon,I'm not sure I can answer intellingently. All his book says it thatthe "e" stands for rods with "extra" wood built in. They should be alittle faster rods. Others probably know more than the book explains from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 16 15:30:46 1997 (205.236.248.171) Subject: Re: hollow-building Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-14 21:33:31 EDT, you write: I do not know much about hollow built rods but I was under theimpression that hollow building was to keep the weight down fortournament casting because the weight of the rod was part ofequation? Do you think that hollow building has any relevance other than anexercise?Terry TerryOther than as you mentioned for larger rods, not much relevancy forme.Because it dosn't take much of a rod to be an arm buster for me and Ido wantsome larger rods, I will build them hollow. I think using BillWaara'shollow fluting form will be much better than the scraping methodpreviouslyused so will go that route. Have seen no indication Bill's devicewill beavail on the market, so will probably make one per Chris's PlaningFormarticle. Hollow building has been fun and fun is why I stay in thishobby.Relevancy, I guess, is best judged through the eye of the beholder. certain rodthat I was having trouble obtaining, tho it was then currently beingmade.What got you started? Regards,Richard Richard,I always had bamboo rods as a kid in the UK, I loved to re-wrap them andgive em a coat of varnish. I had plastic rods also but I stillcherished my cane rods.An antique dealer gave me some very old rods that he found in a dampoutbuilding that had almost completely delaminated. I soaked them inwater to soften the remaining glue and rebuilt them using plastic resinglue. I was amazed at how the splines came together perfectly andthought that I would like to try it. It seemed a perfect hobby.Terry from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 16 15:33:31 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 9/16/97 6:50:50 PM, you wrote: Sure - There are a lot of ways to take out the material in the Powell typesemi-hollow construction. Powell had a saw set up, a router jig worksfine,or any number of hand tools will work. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 16 15:38:21 1997 (205.236.248.171) Subject: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] 3813B7B6E90A3F8E33B4E18F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 3813B7B6E90A3F8E33B4E18F --------------3813B7B6E90A3F8E33B4E18F Subject: Stealth bomber Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up in mid airlast night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which I believeis a major component of the Stealth. During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that werelaminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They were capable ofwithstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle back acrossthe channel. Call me old fashioned but I still prefer adhesives with a documentedhistory of success.Terry --------------3813B7B6E90A3F8E33B4E18F-- from gord@teleport.com Tue Sep 16 15:40:08 1997 Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers? Jon,I'm not sure I can answer intellingently. All his book says it thatthe "e" stands for rods with "extra" wood built in. They should be alittle faster rods. Others probably know more than the book explains I don't know quite where it was in Master's Guide but the number, as Irecall, is supposed to be roughly the flat to flat dimension 50" fromthe tip. Carmichael may have discussed that in the same section thatdealt with his numbering scheme. Cheers,Gord from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 16 17:07:51 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-buildingGood news. Both Ron Barch (Publisher of The Planing Form) and ChrisBogart(Author of article) have graciously agreed that I should copy the articleabout the hollow fluting jig/form and send it to you. Will be in the mailThur, Sept 18th. Please let us know how it works out. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 16 17:07:56 1997 Subject: Re: hollow-building In a message dated 97-09-15 22:26:59 EDT, you write: Hank - funny thing is I've yet to build that rod. This winter. Richard from brookside.rod@juno.com Tue Sep 16 19:44:58 1997 20:20:11 EDT Subject: Re: No requests found ( Evaluate your Heddon) 50,57-67 On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:05:06 +0000 "Kent Manno" writes:Morning All: I just picked up a Heddon Model 13 last night from a friend ofmine...I had a couple of questions: 1. Although the finish is quite good, will some of the value of therod be lost if it is refinished? 2. If you think refinishing is OK, who do you recommend to do it? Anddo you know approx.cost? 3. Can you date this rod for me? I understand that it might be circa1950 or so...? Any historybehind it? (Keane's book does not mention this model) 4. What price range does this rod usually sell for in good to VGcondition? Sorry to be so long-winded...Thanks in advance you all have beentremendously helpful. Kent Kent; a few comments which I hope you will find informative. Heddon rods are considered among the finest production rods producedduring the classic age of cane rods. If the finish on your rod isoriginal and in good condition I would not touch it. It would be o.k. totouch up the odd chip or refresh the wraps. Varnish would be consideredbad if it has become soft and permitted the bag weave to imprint into thefinish. Soft varnish could be almost rubbed off with the fingers. Finish in this condition would provide little protection to the cane. Rod value is determined by the market. Todays collectable cane rodmarket prefers shorter rods ( eight feet and shorter). In my view themarket seems to miss the point that longer rods offer a little betterline control. A quick check in the catalog of a couple of respectedsellers of classic tackle yield values about as follows. 8 foot 3/2 for5/6 line; in very good original condition, near flawless varnish, allpieces original and correct length, grip and reel seat as above, originalbag and tube (and cap). $450.00 +/- $40.00. If a two piece 7 foot 6inch rod with the above description it would be worth around $650.00 +/-$60.00 The same rods if evaluated as only good condition or refinishedor without original bag or tube or cap would be about $200.00 +/- $50.00less. Keep in mind that estimating rod values and evaluating rodswithout having the rod in hand is a lot like doing surgery over thephone. You're not likely to get it right often. Your rod was built during the period from 1930 to 1943. The model 13wasbuilt as 3 piece rods 8.5 to 9.5 feet from 1930 to 1940. In 1940 a 7.5foot 3 pc. model was added . Also in 1940 two piece model 13's was addedto the line. The two piece rods were offered in lengths from 6 feet to 8feet. Very, very few 6 and 6.5 foot rods were built. 7 and 7.5 and 8foot rods are more common. The 7 and 7.5 foot rods would tend to bevaluable if in mint or very good condition. Hope this helps some. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: http://home.onestop.net/brookside from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue Sep 16 21:08:10 1997 Subject: Re: ferrules Grayson, I ran the info. on building ferrules out of n/s tubing in thePlaning Formback awhile ago. If you don't have that copy,let me know and I will sendyouthe instructions. Dave LeClair from aa0rq@juno.com Tue Sep 16 23:06:52 1997 00:05:55 EDT Subject: Classic Sporting Enterprises Does anyone have an E mail Address for Classic Sporting Enterprises atPOBOX 1909, Hyde Park, VT 05655 Bill Hensel/Stockton, Ca from vjwilson@micron.net Tue Sep 16 23:45:17 1997 Subject: frozen cane? can anyone help a newbie with sever cane addiction?i am a fairly new cane collector/refurbisher/fisher and havethis concern i need addressed:some of us (fools, some say) fly fish up here year round. ineed to know if i should refrain from fishing my cane rodsin cold (COLD) weather.thanks in advance,leonard in idaho from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 17 00:13:30 1997 Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers? In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:05 EDT, you write: I don't know quite where it was in Master's Guide but the number, as Irecall, is supposed to be roughly the flat to flat dimension 50" fromthe tip. Carmichael may have discussed that in the same section thatdealt with his numbering scheme. Found it! Page 171 in the Master's Guide book. It is indeed thediameter 50 inches from the tip. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 17 00:30:02 1997 Subject: Re:Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:21 EDT, you write: Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up in mid airlast night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which I believeis a major component of the Stealth. The next time I have to hit the eject button while casting, I'll letyou know. During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that werelaminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They were capableofwithstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle backacrossthe channel. Wow, they did that in the Gulf War? Tornados are made from laminatedwood?I'm impressed! Darryl Hayashida from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Wed Sep 17 08:22:46 1997 06:22:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers? As a rough guide to line sizes for Garrison tapers, I've uncovered thefollowing based on some old rod lists: 7'0" Model 198 #47'6" Model 204 #57'9" Model 206 #58'0" Model 212 #5/68'6" Model 212 #69'0" Model 218 #7/8 --Rich------------------------------ In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:05 EDT, you write: I don't know quite where it was in Master's Guide but the number, as Irecall, is supposed to be roughly the flat to flat dimension 50" fromthe tip. Carmichael may have discussed that in the same section thatdealt with his numbering scheme. Found it! Page 171 in the Master's Guide book. It is indeed thediameter 50 inches from the tip. Sir Darryl ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 22:18:16-0700 Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers? from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 17 10:07:43 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06942 for Subject: Re: Stealth bomber SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:21 EDT, you write: Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up in midairlast night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which I believeis a major component of the Stealth. The next time I have to hit the eject button while casting, I'll letyou know. During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that werelaminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They were capableofwithstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle backacrossthe channel. Wow, they did that in the Gulf War? Tornados are made from laminatedwood?I'm impressed! Darryl Hayashida Darryl, I can't believe how dumb you are. He wasn't talking about the Nato warbut about the Falkland war. As I recall that was the last one whereBritian was "at war". You know how computer life is measured in dog years? Airplanes are thesame way.-- Martin Jensen from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 17 10:14:52 1997 Subject: Hollow Rod Patents It's turning out to be a little difficult getting the patentsscanned in a readable form. The patents I have arecopies of the original, and my OCR (Optical CharacterRecognition) software has a difficult time recognizingthe letters. One is from 1933 and the other is from1951, and the typwriters back then used some fancy fonts. Consequently I am having to proof read thescans practicaly word for word. The work is progressing,and all of you that requested a copy will get one whenI'm done. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 17 10:21:29 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 11:10:19 EDT, you write: I can't believe how dumb you are. He wasn't talking about the Nato warbut about the Falkland war. As I recall that was the last one whereBritian was "at war". You know how computer life is measured in dog years? Airplanes are thesame way. My mistake. Still, Harrier jump jets made out of laminated wood isstill impressive. I guess I was thrown off by the "last war". Britian was a member ofthe Coalition and had a fairly large presence there. He didn't saythe last war Britian declared. Darryl Hayashida from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 17 10:35:46 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA06955; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:35:45 - 0400 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] Terry You are right on the Stealth bomber using epoxy however thevideo shows that it prob is a turbine blade in the engine that explodedrather than delamination of components. Most of the space probesuse epoxy to hold them together and Bill Fink assures me there is stillstuff on the face of the moon held together with his Epon epoxy. Thatis about extreme conditions you will ever want to fish in. But if you want to make the arguement for tried and true glues thenI suggest you try hide glue - there is still musical instruments and rodsheld together in daily use for several hundred years. While I haverepair rods "held" together with formaldehyde glues that havedelaminated - the latest being a Paul Young. Chris p.s. Darryl has a good point with "the last war". Terence Ackland wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Stealth bomberDate: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:08:21 -0400From: Terence Ackland Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up in mid airlast night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which I believeis a major component of the Stealth. During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that werelaminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They were capableofwithstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle backacrossthe channel. Call me old fashioned but I still prefer adhesives with a documentedhistory of success.Terry from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 10:53:38 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building RO>Kent, if you do decide you would like to buy your cane blanks, I sellsome oRO>mine. the price is $400.00 for my std. two piece with two tips.$450.00 forRO>three piece with two tips or custom tapers. They come with theferrulesRO>alreadyRO>mounted and fitted. my std. rods are- 6ft. 3wt-- 7ft. 3/4 wt. and 7ft.6inRO>4/5 wt. RO> Dave LeClair Dave, Could you post me a message directly so I can get your email address.Darn server strips the poster's email address and just give me thelist-serv address. Thanks, Don Burns from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 10:54:04 1997 Subject: Re: Heddon RO>Kent: RO>Some additional info: RO>The Model 13 is a relatively rare model, I think it was added to theHeddonRO>line after 1945, sometimes called the "Lucky Angler" model. A fewmoreRO>questions: RO>1. Is it 3 pc or 2pc? RO>2. Any markings on the rod shaft? RO>3. What color are the wraps (should be yellow/gold tipped black) RO>--Rich Rich, The #13 ended production in 1943, 1st produced in 1930. It wasintroduced to have a lower-cost rod (than the #14) during the GreatDepression when sales were slow. A $10 rod vs. $16 for the #14. Anyone interested in Heddons should get a copy of Michael Sinclair's newbook " Heddon - The Rod with the Fighting Heart". A very very good book LAter, Don Burns Wishful collector of Gillum and Dickerson rods - owner of Montague, H-Iand Heddon rods from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 10:54:49 1997 Subject: FYI: Reelseat gluing Some time back I asked for advice on how to reglue a loose metalreelseat spacer on a baitcasting rod. The problem was that the reelseatis mounted between 2 cork grips and couldn't be removed withoutdamagingthe cork. Here's what I did: I bought a small syringe and needle (blunt) from Fry's Electronics,mixed up some FLexcoat rodbuilders epoxy and dilited it 50 - 50 withMEK. Then I filled the syringe with the dilited epoxy, installed a needle andprobed through the cork until I was under the metal spacer. Then Iinjected the "stuff". I refilled and did this several times. 48 hours later I tested the spacer - stuck on just fine. The rod is now in the final stages of restoration. LAter all, Don Burns PS - Filling the syringe through the needle doesn't work! from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 10:55:47 1997 Subject: RE:Changing ISP RO>I am changing my ISP. My new E-mail address is flyfisher@circle.net. RO>Donald YeltonRO>flyfisher@circle.net Not to confuse anyone Don, if you would use Don Y. for your posts - I'lluse Don B. LAter, Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 10:58:49 1997 Subject: Sorry for reposts Hi all, You may receive some repeats of my postings form the last few days -sorry. My ISP server was raided by a spammer and things got screwed up.So I've reposted all my messages for the last few days just of make surethey came through. Don Burns PS - Copy of a Sysop message to me: from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Wed Sep 17 10:58:57 1997 97 08:58:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber Guys: Excuse me, but wasn't Terry talking about WWII when he said theyreturned beatup across the Channel? --Rich------------------------------ In a message dated 97-09-17 11:10:19 EDT, you write: I can't believe how dumb you are. He wasn't talking about the Nato warbut about the Falkland war. As I recall that was the last one whereBritian was "at war". You know how computer life is measured in dog years? Airplanes are thesame way. My mistake. Still, Harrier jump jets made out of laminated wood isstill impressive. I guess I was thrown off by the "last war". Britian was a member ofthe Coalition and had a fairly large presence there. He didn't saythe last war Britian declared. Darryl Hayashida ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 08:28:41-0700 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 11:31:28 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber RO>SalarFly@aol.com wrote:RO>>RO>> In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:21 EDT, you write:RO>>RO>> > Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up inmid airRO>> > last night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which IbelieveRO>> > is a major component of the Stealth.RO>>RO>> The next time I have to hit the eject button while casting, I'll letRO>> you know.RO>>RO>> > During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that wereRO>> > laminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They werecapable ofRO>> > withstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle backacrosRO>> > the channel.RO>>RO>> Wow, they did that in the Gulf War? Tornados are made fromlaminated wood?RO>> I'm impressed!RO>>RO>> Darryl Hayashida RO>Darryl, RO>I can't believe how dumb you are. He wasn't talking about the Nato warRO>but about the Falkland war. As I recall that was the last one whereRO>Britian was "at war".RO>You know how computer life is measured in dog years? Airplanes aretheRO>same way.RO>--RO>Martin Jensen Martin, No spamming of Sir Darryl please. Besides the reference was to WWII, "The Big One"! (as in the Battle ofBritain et al) WWII Mosquito bombers were easier for the British toproduce because because the didn't drain as much metal from fighterproduction. I believe that the Huricanes fighters were also woodenframes, but I might be very wrong on this. Not the Falklands war. The Iron Lady sent British Sea Harriers - allmetal planes (and composites). No wooden planes used in the Falklands war, not even by the Argintines.They used mostly French Mirage fighter-bombers and Exoret missiles.Their biplanes were being saved for fighting Snoopy and the Red Baron. Don Burns PS - The last wooden frame automoble is still in production (I hope) -the wonderful Morgan. PPS - English drink warm beer because they own Lucas refrigerators.Sorry, a very old sports car joke. from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 17 11:49:19 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11408 for Subject: Re: Stealth bomber Rich Margiotta wrote: Guys: Excuse me, but wasn't Terry talking about WWII when he said theyreturned beatup across the Channel? --Rich------------------------------Date: 9/17/97 8:35 AM From: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 97-09-17 11:10:19 EDT, you write: I can't believe how dumb you are. He wasn't talking about the Nato warbut about the Falkland war. As I recall that was the last one whereBritian was "at war".You know how computer life is measured in dog years? Airplanes arethesame way. My mistake. Still, Harrier jump jets made out of laminated wood isstill impressive. I guess I was thrown off by the "last war". Britian was a member ofthe Coalition and had a fairly large presence there. He didn't saythe last war Britian declared. Darryl Hayashida ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------Received: by cpqm.saic.com with ADMIN;17 Sep 1997 08:29:09 -0800Return-Path: Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by cpmx.mail.saic.com; Wed, 17 Sep 9708:28:41- 0700 Received: from emout27.mail.aol.com (emout27.mx.aol.com Received: ( from root@localhost) Message-Id: Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: SalarFly@aol.com Subject: Re: Stealth bomberX-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN I thought he was using the term "Channel" for the term "Bandwidth".-- Martin Jensen from gmollink@lia.net Wed Sep 17 12:21:58 1997 lia.lia.net (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id TAA17449 for; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:20:49 +0200 Subject: Spine a blank Hi. I am new to this list and have enjoyed reading the posts, I trust thatother than bamboo can be discussed. Could someone please help me in understanding where the stiff side of thespine is on a blank When I flex and roll the blank on a smooth surface there are two distinctpoints at which the blank wants to jump(twist), the jump at one point ismore distinct than that at the opposite point on the diameter. Now my problem is which is the strong (stiff) side, my understanding isthat it is the side on the outside(bottom) of the bow(curve) i.e. thebottom side of the blank when the jump is greatest, is this so ?. I also understand that on a fly rod the guides should be mounted oppositethe stiff spine, is this so? According to a local custom rod builder thecorrect position for a fly rods guides should be at 90 deg to the spinebecause if the spine is flexed while casting the rod tends to twist in thesame way as it does when rolled on a flat surface, is this so. As you can see I'm confused and would appreciate any guidance. Another point I notice is that the white dots placed on the blank by Sagedo not coincide with the spine, but I see from their web page that thisindicates the straightest position for the blank, which is better astraight rod or a properly spined rod or the guides at 90 deg. I am using the following components.Blank Sage RPL 590Guides Fuji Titanium CermetReal Seat Struble Regards, Greg MollinkPretoriaSouth Africa from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 17 12:26:15 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13609 for Subject: Re: Stealth bomber flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: Martin, No spamming of Sir Darryl please. I thought I was flaming him, not spamming him. But.... so as this thread does not get too far afield (as if it isn'talready) I ask a question about waxing my finished rod and as you couldwax airplanes I guess I am keeping somewhat on thread here. I havefinished a rod recently using urethane varnish and I am wondering howlong to wait before waxing the rod and in fact whether to wax at all.Theproducts we are using are vastly improved from the days of old. I can'thelp but think that wax on top of the urethane varnish is superfluous asbest and a possible contaminant as worst in time of a recoat of touchup.I did wax my first four rods but the last four are only 6 or 7 monthsold and I wanted to wait till the varnish had completely dried.Martin Jensen from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 17 14:21:32 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA10810; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:21:31 - 0400 Subject: Re: Spine a blank Greg first - you correctly found the spline - on graphite it is usuallyeasy to do. On well made bamboo rods the spline can very difficultto detect.Rule of thumb for placing guides on spline - If you want an accuratecasting rod place on "soft" side and if you want a rod for fighting fishplace on "stiff" side.Placing guides 90 deg off of splice will produce bad results.A straight rod is for show a splined rod is for go. Best way to evaluate a rod for being correctly splined and theeffects of it is to hold it by the butt and flex it in an up and downmotion - look at the travel of the tip. A good rod will flex andmove in the same plane while a bad one the tip will make circlesor loops and will not stay in a straight line. This is the affect ofspline on the rod - this will impact the casting accuracy of a rod. Chris Greg Mollink wrote: Hi. I am new to this list and have enjoyed reading the posts, I trust thatother than bamboo can be discussed. Could someone please help me in understanding where the stiff side ofthespine is on a blank When I flex and roll the blank on a smooth surface there are two distinctpoints at which the blank wants to jump(twist), the jump at one point ismore distinct than that at the opposite point on the diameter. Now my problem is which is the strong (stiff) side, my understanding isthat it is the side on the outside(bottom) of the bow(curve) i.e. thebottom side of the blank when the jump is greatest, is this so ?. I also understand that on a fly rod the guides should be mounted oppositethe stiff spine, is this so? According to a local custom rod builder thecorrect position for a fly rods guides should be at 90 deg to the spinebecause if the spine is flexed while casting the rod tends to twist in thesame way as it does when rolled on a flat surface, is this so. As you can see I'm confused and would appreciate any guidance. Another point I notice is that the white dots placed on the blank by Sagedo not coincide with the spine, but I see from their web page that thisindicates the straightest position for the blank, which is better astraight rod or a properly spined rod or the guides at 90 deg. I am using the following components.Blank Sage RPL 590Guides Fuji Titanium CermetReal Seat Struble Regards, Greg MollinkPretoriaSouth Africa from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 17 14:25:14 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 13:29:45 EDT, you write: Martin,No spamming of Sir Darryl please. I thought I was flaming him, not spamming him. Please don't worry about the flames stirred up from my post.It was in jest, and I expected to get toasted a bit for writingit. I got out my asbestos suit as I hit the Send key. And it was a Stealth Fighter not a bomber that crashed. Still attired in my flame proof suit. Fire away . Sir Darryl from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Sep 17 14:57:58 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Stealth bomber Sir Darryl what is your e-mail address, I would like to request a copyof those patents also Patrick ----------From: SalarFly@aol.com[SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 12:24 PM Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 13:29:45 EDT, you write: Martin,No spamming of Sir Darryl please. I thought I was flaming him, not spamming him. Please don't worry about the flames stirred up from my post.It was in jest, and I expected to get toasted a bit for writingit. I got out my asbestos suit as I hit the Send key. And it was a Stealth Fighter not a bomber that crashed. Still attired in my flame proof suit. Fire away . Sir Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 17 15:18:57 1997 (205.236.248.93) Subject: Re: Stealth bomber SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-17 00:19:21 EDT, you write: Watched some amazing video of a Stealth bomber breaking up in midairlast night and got to thinking of you guys using epoxy, which Ibelieveis a major component of the Stealth. The next time I have to hit the eject button while casting, I'll letyou know. During the last war Britain produced fighter bombers that werelaminated from wood using formaldehyde adhesives. They were capableofwithstanding great damage from enemy fire yet still struggle backacrossthe channel. Wow, they did that in the Gulf War? Tornados are made from laminatedwood?I'm impressed! Darryl Hayashida Darryl,us Brits do not count the Gulf war as a war or the Falklands.A war to us has to last for 4 years at least.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 17 15:57:03 1997 (205.236.248.93) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] Chris Bogart wrote: Terry You are right on the Stealth bomber using epoxy however thevideo shows that it prob is a turbine blade in the engine thatexplodedrather than delamination of components. Most of the space probesuse epoxy to hold them together and Bill Fink assures me there isstillstuff on the face of the moon held together with his Epon epoxy. That is about extreme conditions you will ever want to fish in. But if you want to make the arguement for tried and true gluesthenI suggest you try hide glue - there is still musical instruments androdsheld together in daily use for several hundred years. While I haverepair rods "held" together with formaldehyde glues that havedelaminated - the latest being a Paul Young. Chris Chris, the US produces 1.2 million metric tons of adhesive for its woodproducts industry.50% of the adhesive is of the urea formaldehyde typeand 45% is of the phenol-formaldehyde type leaving the 5% to be dividedamong all the other available adhesives. This tells me something atleast. Epoxy is not an adhesive recommended for wood, it cannot handle thecyclic changes in dimensions that occur as the humidity changes. Bambooalthough not 'wood' behaves in the same manner. I guess that a flyrod built with epoxy would last ok on the moon!TerryPs I obtained the figures above from the internet, if anyone isinterested I,ll post the url. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ from Canerods@aol.com Wed Sep 17 16:41:10 1997 Subject: Re: Spine a blank In a message dated 97-09-17 13:24:46 EDT, you write: Never put guides 90 deg's from the spline. The fellow might mean 90 deg's from where the blank stops (after thesnaptwist). The spline is the point just before the rod "snaps" over to the stopposition ( from the hardest snapping of the 2). Fly rods are normally setup with guides 180 deg's out from the spline. Butifyou're working with a real heavy wt. rod you might want to put the guidesonthe spline. You want the spline to be working for you - forward cast fornormal rods, fish fighting for heavy rods. IMHO, use at your own risk. (lawyer talk) Don Burns from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Wed Sep 17 16:42:34 1997 +0200 (CEST) ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:31:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: stress curves, glue and stealth Having browsed throughw.w.w. I found RODMAKERS Tapers Archives. Lotsoftapers from lots of rod-builders. I also noticed the presence ofstress-curves. Being ignorant (again) about how to read them, I hopesomebody, if possible, could explain this mystery to me in a short, not tootechnical way. Re. glues. Having been taught the art of rod-building by a retired,strictly orthodox cabinetmaker, I am only familiar with PVA glue - thewhite air-drying stuff used for wood-working. It never failed me, butsincea lot of you guys use epoxys and other modern stuff, theres got to be areason, I imagine. I did try epoxy once, but it was a messy affair, and Ithink, it made the rod somewhat slower. So the question is (at last): why bother with mixing powders and liquids,suffering short curing times AND having your hair done at the same time,when it is so much easier to use ordinary white PVA glue? By now youhaveprobably realised that until my joining this list, words like hollowbuilding, nodeless, stress curves and epoxy were not a common part of myvocabulary. I do try to improve - I have just ordered my copy of "The bestof the Planing Form" but until it arrives, please enlighten me. Finally I cant help making this comment to "The Stealth War": Being anardent anglophile I have discovered that "The Great War" means WW1,"theWar" means WW2 and the rest are "mere incidents"! That is Britishunderstatement for you. "I beg to remain Yours faithfully" Carsten from ishikawa@stout.atd.ucar.edu Wed Sep 17 16:46:57 1997 Central Post Office 03/11/93) 04/10/90) Subject: Re: ferrules -Reply -Reply Don,Try http://www.quikpage.com/E/ehilleinc/Sergio flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Don,RO>Address for Hille isRO>E.Hille Co.RO>815 Railway StRO>Williamsport, Pa. 17701RO>717-323-7564RO>800-326-6612 order lineRO>www.HappyValley.com/Hille RO>They have a catalog but it is just a black and white print job. TheRO>company is family owned and the people are very helpful and nice.RO>(they called to tell me something was backordered and then calledagainRO>when they shipped it.) Hope this helps. Gary The above URL: doesn't work - I'll call them. Thanks, Don from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 17 17:27:34 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building Martin,I plane the whole length of the strip-so far no problems. If the easyway works why go the difficult way?Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 17 17:27:40 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building Richard,This winter for me, too. Good luck.Hank. from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Sep 17 17:59:50 1997 Subject: Short tip rods I'm in the process of making a 6"10" - 2 piece rod out of an old 9' - 3piece rod. I was wondering what kind of action I can expect to have witha 3' tip on what amounts to a 3'10" butt section? Don Burns from tlz112@psu.edu Wed Sep 17 18:19:40 1997 r02n05.cac.psu.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA147052 for; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:19:37 -0400 DISCONNECT from tlz112@psu.edu Wed Sep 17 18:24:44 1997 r02n05.cac.psu.edu (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA202002 for; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:24:42 -0400 Please Help! How do I get off of the list it is clogging up my E-mail. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 17 18:50:34 1997 Thu, 18 Sep 1997 07:50:24 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Stealth bomber Funny you should mention Morgans as I was thinking about them the lasttime the old should you make a rod quickly (production) or take your time(Garrison) thread began. I read of Morgan using a business consultant 6- 7years ago. His report mentions Morgan mark and measure everything ratherthan using templates etc and each part is hand made. The consultantadvised they would be broke in a few years if they didn'tmend their ways. The father was all for it, though reluctantly but the son who seemed to have the controling vote was refusing to change saying to do so was to make Ford cars that looked like Morgans.Kind of extreme I guess but sometimes these things matter. Is Morgan still in business? I don't know. Tony The last wooden frame automoble is still in production hope) - > the wonderful Morgan. > > PPS - English drink warm beer because /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Sep 17 18:51:34 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-39971U10000L10000S0)with SMTP id AAA330 for ;Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:46:14 -0500 Subject: Re: hollow-building Chris Bogart wrote: Harry Take the Bull by the horns and have a Southern Rodmakers gathering.I know Johnathon Clarke is in Florida, Kube, Hall and others inAtlanta,there are several in TN and I know of several in NC. Take a poll and seewhoanswers. Regional Gatherings are good. Just remember - you are notaloneout there! Regards Chris OK, I'll bite. When I wanted a FFF club in my area, I had to organizeit. If I was going to organize a local rodmakers gathering, how would Igo about it? I'm a minister in Winnsboro, Louisiana. We could hold thegathering in my church, but from what I read on this list, a churchmight well be inappropriate! I know I'd have more fun somewhere else! Are there any of you who have experience in this sort of thing? Shouldwe just set a time and a place, and see who shows up? Do we charge afee? Do we bring in a big name like one of you guys who think you knowwhat you're doing? (Terry, maybe?, or Wayne?) I'm aware that GeorgeMaurer has taught some classes and schools near the White River inArkansas, but at $800, that seems a little steep to me. Give me somesuggestions. Then I'll let you know if I'm up to getting something likethis going. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 17 18:58:21 1997 (205.236.248.232) Subject: Re: Short tip rods flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: I'm in the process of making a 6"10" - 2 piece rod out of an old 9' -3piece rod. I was wondering what kind of action I can expect to havewitha 3' tip on what amounts to a 3'10" butt section? Don Burns Don,the story goes that Payne on taking a 3 piece rod appart flicked the tipand mid section in a casting motion and one of his more popular rodswere developed. You can take this for what it is worth, lots of stories in this game. A rod does not have to be in equal pieces to be able to cast. Ritzdesigned parabolic rods which the tip was about 6ins longer than thebutt. A 6in length of of wood with a male ferrule was placed into thebutt section to keep the lengths equal in the bag.I cannot imagine the reverse of this will make much difference.Terry from rclarke@eou.edu Wed Sep 17 19:18:39 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber Morgans are still in production from what I know, and have a seven yearwaiting list. Wish I could afford one, but I will make do with my Triumph. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Tony Young Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Stealth bomberDate: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 4:50 PM Funny you should mention Morgans as I was thinking about them the lasttime the old should you make a rod quickly (production) or take your time(Garrison) thread began. I read of Morgan using a business consultant 6- 7years ago. His report mentions Morgan mark and measure everythingratherthan using templates etc and each part is hand made. The consultantadvised they would be broke in a few years if they didn'tmend their ways. The father was all for it, though reluctantly but the son who seemed to have the controling vote was refusing to changesaying to do so was to make Ford cars that looked like Morgans.Kind of extreme I guess but sometimes these things matter. Is Morgan still in business? I don't know. Tony The last wooden frame automoble is still in production hope) - > the wonderful Morgan. > > PPS - English drink warm beerbecause /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Sep 17 20:53:21 1997 Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises In a message dated 97-09-17 00:11:32 EDT, you write: Bill - Do not know e-add but here are ph 802-525-3623 and fax 802-525- 3982. To All - I recently talked with Bailey concerning the 8-cut files. He saidthat he is building a list of those who want one and has 10 or so on thelistnow. The problem is that they are a special order with the factory, andthemin is 60 units. At min, they will be around $35 ea. Should he get thenumbers above 60, the unit cost comes down. As I understand it, the files are a big help in fitting the ferrules, ie.,male/female fit. Hope someone will jump in and give more info on theirusefullness. Regards,RTyree from merryap@wazoo.com Wed Sep 17 21:57:23 1997 earth.wazoo.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03940 for; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:57:15 GMT Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] and intro Hi gang, Been lurking for a few weeks but I need to set this straight beforejumping into the intro.As someone who has flown the F-117 and knows Maj Knight, the mishappilot, quite well I'd like to point out:1. The mishap at Baltimore involved an F-117 Stealth FIGHTER not nostinking bomber, that's the B-2.2. No I won't answer any questions as to why it's called a fighter andnot a bomber as that gets into tactics and capabilities. ;-)3. It was a structural failure, as far we know, of the aircraftstructure, the turbine blades are deep in the fuselage. All of the blackjets are still grounded until we can determine exactly what failed andwhatthe failure mode was.4. Twas Royal Navy Sea Harriers and RAF Harriers which participated inthe Falklands war. (I spent an exchange tour on Number 1 (Fighter)Squadron, Royal Air Force as a Harrier pilot) These are my personal views and statements and do not represent anyofficialposition by the United States Air Force or the Department of Defense. Rod list intro:USAF fighter pilot, been FF for about 16 years, have built one "plastic"rod but want to attempt a cane rod when I retire from the USAF in about10months or so. Also a FF@ member. Currently stationed at Holloman AFBnearAlamogordo NM, flying F-117 and T-38. Check 6, Pitt M Merryman, Lt Col, USAFBandit 432 from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 17 23:40:04 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07315 for Subject: Re: hollow-building FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Martin,I plane the whole length of the strip-so far no problems. If the easyway works why go the difficult way?Hank. So you don't leave any "bridges" then? How deep or how thick do youleave the splines?-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 17 23:42:06 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA07354 for Subject: Re: Timothy Luke Zietak wrote: Please Help! How do I get off of the list it is clogging up my E-mail. Go here: LISTPROC@mail.wustl.eduType unsubscribe and your name in the body of the message-- Martin Jensen from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Thu Sep 18 00:09:56 1997 (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA197 0400 Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises From: Fallcreek9@aol.com Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises In a message dated 97-09-17 00:11:32 EDT, you write: POBOX 1909, Hyde Park, VT 05655 Bill Hensel/Stockton, Ca Bill - Do not know e-add but here are ph 802-525-3623 and fax 802-525- 3982. To All - I recently talked with Bailey concerning the 8-cut files. He saidthat he is building a list of those who want one and has 10 or so on thelistnow. The problem is that they are a special order with the factory, andthemin is 60 units. At min, they will be around $35 ea. Should he get thenumbers above 60, the unit cost comes down. As I understand it, the files are a big help in fitting the ferrules, ie.,male/female fit. Hope someone will jump in and give more info on theirusefullness. Regards,RTyree Hi Richard,I have no idea what an 8-cut file is. However, I have used the jewelers files described in the Garrison book. These are extremely fine cutting files and I have used them for several years. They are readily available at most jewelers suppliers and are sometimes known as Swiss jewelers files. I think the come in a #2,4,6,8 cut or "grit" and this is what is being refered to. from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 00:36:30 1997 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] and intro Welcome to rodmakers Bandit 432!Check out Jerry Fosters web page at:http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htmLots of good information. Be sure toread Bruce Connors FAQ. There isa link to it on Jerrys page. Most of the time we are just rodmaking,this excursion on the Stealth Fighterwas one of the very few off subjecttopics we write about (Unlike FF@,but I won't get into that). Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 00:49:30 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 16:08:17 EDT, you write: Sir Darryl what is your e-mail address, I would like to request a copyof those patents also It's SalarFly@aol.comSalmo Salar is the scientific name for the Atlantic Salmon.I dream about catching one of those. Salar also is latin for "the leaper". I also play volleyball, so salar fits for that too. Sir D from skyboss@ibm.net Thu Sep 18 01:35:41 1997 SMTP id GAA35602 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 199706:35:36 GMT 17 Sep 1997 23:33:57 -0600 Subject: United Kingdom Rodmaker Seeking U.S. Warranty Office =_NextPart_000_01BCC3C2.2B8D8D20" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC3C2.2B8D8D20 September 17, 1997Wednesday EveningDenver, Colorado Ladies and Gentlemen, I am writing this message from the 1997 Fly Tackle Dealer Show in =Denver, Colorado. I have made contact with a European cane and graphite =rod manufacturer who is seeking a reputable rod repair craftsman in the = This person(s) will handle all warranty claims for all registered owners =of the Company's cane and graphite rods sold in the United States. =Varied payment terms are available and are lucrative and negotiable. The =owner of the Company is meticulous and quite proud of his products and =will expect service to his customers on the highest order. Please send an e-mail to me as soon as possible and I will attempt to =place you in contact with the owner of the Company prior to his =departure on Sunday to the United Kingdom. If you could possibly include a short description of your experience and =talents that would much be appreciated. Thank you. I hope that this post is within the bounds of what is considered =reasonable for this list. Ken HolderSkyboss@ibm.net ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC3C2.2B8D8D20 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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC3C2.2B8D8D20-- from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 01:49:39 1997 Subject: Re: stress curves, glue and stealth In a message dated 97-09-18 01:23:33 EDT, you write: I hopesomebody, if possible, could explain this mystery to me in a short, nottootechnical way. The higher the curve goes the more the rod bends. More details if youwant them. Sir Darryl from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Thu Sep 18 08:36:11 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:36:08 -0400 Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:36:08 -0400 Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:36:08 -0400 Subject: Reelseat Gluing Woodcraft sells a couple of different high pressure gluing syringes. Thesearemeant for repairing joints in chairs and the like. They comewith twodifferentsized needles. They are heavily built and really let you put the glue inunderpressure.... They handle a little thicker glue too... I've used the moreexpensive one (about $20) for repairs and it works great and cleans upwell. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Thu Sep 18 08:50:20 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:50:15 -0400 Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:50:15 -0400 Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:50:15 -0400 Subject: Short Tipped Rods With a short tip section you should experience a a quicker action. I knowofa trick (at least glass rods) to make the tip section longer. This willslowthe action of the rods. The reverse should also be true. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Sep 18 09:02:21 1997 Subject: Hollow Building Too all, Made my first hollow fluted rod last winter as an experiment. What I didwas to rework a preexisting taper [ 7'9" 5 wt.] and make two rods - onehollow fluted and one of solid construction and compare the results. Each rod was split from the same culm and the strips were intermingledtoreduce errors of cane culm variance. The hollow fluted rod left bridges on each side of the ferrule and undereach guide. The ferrule bridge was 3" and the guides 1 1/2" @ the stripperand 1" under the snakes. I believed that the bridges would support theseareas of higher stress. The pith was removed leaving about 0.080" of outside power fibers. Thismeant the butt was completely done and the tip only for about the first18". The weight difference was compared on a balance beam using 1 tipandthe butt. The difference was 2 1/4" NC nuts difference. [what 1/4" NCthreaded nut weighs I have no idea but it isn't much.] The fluting was done by using a straight sided carbide router bit on atable with a depth setting device where the hollowing out could be kept toa reasonable tolerance. The flutes varied by about 0.002>0.003" in depthbetween them. The cork and reel seat were as similar are possible. The result - well the hollow built felt a little lighter as expected but itdoes not cast as far as the solid rod. Whether this is a result of the pithstiffening the rod or not is unclear. If I was to do it again, I wouldoffset the stiffness thing by making the hollow built about 0.002" larger. Further shop testing of deflection and recovery will be done when fishingseason is past - mind you it's snowing now. I'll send a further report tothe list when the testing is done. regards, Don Andersen from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Sep 18 09:16:43 1997 Subject: Re: [1] frozen cane? At 22:52 16/09/97 -0600, you wrote:can anyone help a newbie with sever cane addiction?i am a fairly new cane collector/refurbisher/fisher and havethis concern i need addressed:some of us (fools, some say) fly fish up here year round. ineed to know if i should refrain from fishing my cane rodsin cold (COLD) weather.thanks in advance,leonard in idaho Leonard, If I didn't fish when it was cold, I'd cut my fishing season by 8 months. Iuse 'em and fish 'em year around and I'm 1000 miles closer to the Articthan you. No problems so far in the past 15 years. regards, Don from aa0rq@juno.com Thu Sep 18 09:27:46 1997 10:26:09 EDT Subject: Harry Middleton I have always wondered what Harry Middleton died of? I am a great fan ofhis "his book "The Earth Is Enough" bought back lots of childhoodmemories for me because I grew up on a small farm in Maryland. Is thereanyone out there with insight into his personaly life. Another question relative to Mr. Garrison . I wonder if he had anyone ofhis childern paid any interest to his rod making craft. Mr. Carmichaelsure came along at the right time and made a wise decision to study underhim. Thanks to anyone kind enough to take the time to answer these questions. from mrj@seanet.com Thu Sep 18 10:05:10 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA16636 for Subject: Re: stress curves, glue and stealth SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-18 01:23:33 EDT, you write: I hopesomebody, if possible, could explain this mystery to me in a short, nottootechnical way. The higher the curve goes the more the rod bends. More details if youwant them. Sir Darryl Good explaination Sir Darryl. I have done a few stress curves but I toodid not understand them. It makes sense now how they could be helpfullin designing a rod to ones liking.-- Martin Jensen from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 18 11:10:06 1997 LAA16446 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:10:01 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id LAA29140 for ; Subject: Re: stress curves, glue and stealth The way I view stress values is a _little_ different. The stress measures how close the rod is to breaking. The tip of the rodcan bend in a tighter arc without breaking than the butt. Its all a heuristic, but a useful one.........................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. SalarFly@aol.com wrote: The higher the curve goes the more the rod bends. More details if youwant them. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 12:02:07 1997 Subject: Re: stress curves, glue and stealth In a message dated 97-09-18 12:10:43 EDT, you write: The way I view stress values is a _little_ different. The stress measures how close the rod is to breaking. The tip of the rodcan bend in a tighter arc without breaking than the butt. You are right, I was trying to keep the answer in a form thatwould be the easiest to start interpeting stress curves for abeginner. If you are comparing tip sections to butt sections,then the higher stress - more bending correlation falls apart. But, if you are comparing a whole stress curve of one rod to the whole stress curve of another rod, then a higher stress reading in the butt section of one rod would mean it bends more than the butt section of the other rod. Sir Darryl from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Sep 18 12:53:01 1997 Subject: Re: Re: hollow-building Martin,I plane until the planed area is 1/2 the width of the enamel side(outside) of the strip. This means that the planing depth varies with thewidth of the strip.I hope this helps.Hank. , from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Sep 18 13:20:10 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Harry Middleton William A. Hensel wrote: I have always wondered what Harry Middleton died of? I am a great fanofhis "his book "The Earth Is Enough" bought back lots of childhoodmemories for me because I grew up on a small farm in Maryland. Is thereanyone out there with insight into his personaly life. Another question relative to Mr. Garrison . I wonder if he had anyone ofhis childern paid any interest to his rod making craft. Mr. Carmichaelsure came along at the right time and made a wise decision to studyunderhim. Thanks to anyone kind enough to take the time to answer these questions. Harry Middleton is one of my favorites as well. I'm looking for somefirst editions of two books he authored. It's my understanding that hetook his own life after a long and serious bout with clinicaldespression.Can't help you much with Mr. Garrison.Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 14:02:25 1997 Subject: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-17 13:29:45 EDT, you write: I havefinished a rod recently using urethane varnish and I am wondering howlong to wait before waxing the rod and in fact whether to wax at all.Theproducts we are using are vastly improved from the days of old. I can'thelp but think that wax on top of the urethane varnish is superfluous asbest and a possible contaminant as worst in time of a recoat of touchup.I did wax my first four rods but the last four are only 6 or 7 monthsold and I wanted to wait till the varnish had completely dried. Waxing used to be neccessary on tung oil finishes for a couplereasons. To keep the tung oil from drying out too fast and toadd a little more waterproofing. On a urethane finish I think itwould be beneficial as much as it's beneficial to wax a car, think it would interfere with a recoat - touch up if it came to thatbecause anyone doing it probably would know that with urethane varnishes you have to sand or steel wool on old coat to get the new varnish to stick. It depends on the temp. and humidity of your area, but I wouldwait at least two weeks before waxing a urethane varnish. Sir Darryl from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Thu Sep 18 14:02:52 1997 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] and intro Pitt-Welcome. This list is a good place to lurk , also jerry foster's rodmaker'sweb page has lots of bamboo info and links to other sites and the archiveswill give you access to the past 2 + years of this list.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.com , alsohttp://members.aol.com/planecane1/index.htm is worth checking out. Regards Dennis Higham P.S. If you flew the wobblin gobblin in sand land we probably held handsand passed some gas on your way home. (KC-10's/retired) from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Thu Sep 18 14:26:47 1997 (CEST) ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:02:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: stress curves, glue and stealth Sir Darryl wrote----------You are right, I was trying to keep the answer in a form thatwould be the easiest to start interpeting stress curves for abeginner. Thanks to Sir D, Frank and Martin. More details will be appriciated, butfirst: The horizontal axis tells the length of the rod, or so I think. Butwhat of the vertical axis?And why do some stress curves look like primitive drawings ofrollercoasters? If this is the point, where things get technically, so beit. My copy of Oxfords Advanced learners Dictionary will come in handy, Ifear. Regards Carsten from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Thu Sep 18 14:59:11 1997 Subject: Rod Building Don-Last catalog I received from Codella was the Spring '97. It arrived in mymailbox April 10th. Regards, Dennis from flyfisher@rhco.com Thu Sep 18 15:35:14 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id QAA13638 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Waxing a rod Does your message mean that you use wax on a straight tung oil finish?I soak my rods for 24 - 36 hours is pure tung oil. Can I use a car waxor should I use Wayne's bees wax? Brian -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 3:02 PM Subject: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-17 13:29:45 EDT, you write: I havefinished a rod recently using urethane varnish and I am wonderinghowlong to wait before waxing the rod and in fact whether to wax atall.Theproducts we are using are vastly improved from the days of old. Ican'thelp but think that wax on top of the urethane varnish issuperfluous asbest and a possible contaminant as worst in time of a recoat oftouchup.I did wax my first four rods but the last four are only 6 or 7monthsold and I wanted to wait till the varnish had completely dried. Waxing used to be neccessary on tung oil finishes for a couplereasons. To keep the tung oil from drying out too fast and toadd a little more waterproofing. On a urethane finish I think itwould be beneficial as much as it's beneficial to wax a car, think it would interfere with a recoat - touch up if it came to thatbecause anyone doing it probably would know that with urethane varnishes you have to sand or steel wool on old coat to get the new varnish to stick. It depends on the temp. and humidity of your area, but I wouldwait at least two weeks before waxing a urethane varnish. Sir Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 18 15:47:56 1997 (205.236.248.100) Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises Jorge Carcao wrote: From: Fallcreek9@aol.com Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises In a message dated 97-09-17 00:11:32 EDT, you write: Enterprises atPOBOX 1909, Hyde Park, VT 05655 Bill Hensel/Stockton, Ca Bill - Do not know e-add but here are ph 802-525-3623 and fax802-525- 3982. To All - I recently talked with Bailey concerning the 8-cut files.He saidthat he is building a list of those who want one and has 10 or so onthe listnow. The problem is that they are a special order with the factory,and themin is 60 units. At min, they will be around $35 ea. Should he getthenumbers above 60, the unit cost comes down. As I understand it, the files are a big help in fitting theferrules, ie.,male/female fit. Hope someone will jump in and give more info ontheirusefullness. Regards,RTyree Hi Richard,I have no idea what an 8-cut file is. However, I have used thejewelers files described in the Garrison book. These are extremelyfine cutting files and I have used them for several years. They arereadily available at most jewelers suppliers and are sometimes knownas Swiss jewelers files. I think the come in a #2,4,6,8 cut or "grit"and this is what is being refered to. Have I got wrong,do you have to file a Bailey Woods ferrule to make them fit?Terry from Canerods@aol.com Thu Sep 18 15:50:46 1997 Subject: Re: Short tip rods In a message dated 97-09-18 10:36:41 EDT, you write: Terry, A raging debate inside my head (I'll get treatment soon ) has been toscarf the tip to the same length, with some other leftover rod section, toequal the combined length of the mid section and new handle combination.Orto just leave the tip and mid at 3' and not worring about the assembledlength. I know Heddon/Devine used a long tip/short butt design on their baitcasterrods to move the ferrule down to a point below the max stress point in therod. If I scarfed the tip to make the tip equal the assembled other 2 piecesthat's a 10" move down the shaft for the the ferrule location (all 10"wouldbe in the tip). I guess I should run Hexrod and see what the effects would be. Don B. from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 18 17:53:52 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA28434 +0000 Subject: Re: Hollow Building Don Andersen wrote: Too all, Made my first hollow fluted rod last winter as an experiment. What I didwas to rework a preexisting taper [ 7'9" 5 wt.] and make two rods - onehollow fluted and one of solid construction and compare the results. Each rod was split from the same culm and the strips were intermingledtoreduce errors of cane culm variance. The hollow fluted rod left bridges on each side of the ferrule and undereach guide. The ferrule bridge was 3" and the guides 1 1/2" @ thestripperand 1" under the snakes. I believed that the bridges would support theseareas of higher stress. The pith was removed leaving about 0.080" of outside power fibers. Thismeant the butt was completely done and the tip only for about the first18". The weight difference was compared on a balance beam using 1 tipandthe butt. The difference was 2 1/4" NC nuts difference. [what 1/4" NCthreaded nut weighs I have no idea but it isn't much.] The fluting was done by using a straight sided carbide router bit on atable with a depth setting device where the hollowing out could be kepttoa reasonable tolerance. The flutes varied by about 0.002>0.003" in depthbetween them. The cork and reel seat were as similar are possible. The result - well the hollow built felt a little lighter as expected but itdoes not cast as far as the solid rod. Whether this is a result of the pithstiffening the rod or not is unclear. If I was to do it again, I wouldoffset the stiffness thing by making the hollow built about 0.002" larger. Further shop testing of deflection and recovery will be done whenfishingseason is past - mind you it's snowing now. I'll send a further report tothe list when the testing is done. regards, Don Andersen Don, Nice, controlled experiment. I, for one, look forward to hearing theresults. My suspicion, as a former "stressor" (engineer performingstress calculations), is that the pith does contribute some, thus whenit is gone, a slightly weaker (less spring energy when bent) rod. Best regardsEd Estlow from rcurry@jlc.net Thu Sep 18 19:22:21 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA00510 for Subject: Re: Waxing a rod Thoman, Brian A. wrote: Does your message mean that you use wax on a straight tung oil finish?I soak my rods for 24 - 36 hours is pure tung oil. Can I use a car waxor should I use Wayne's bees wax? Brian Brian,I use a hard, largely Carnauba, wax. It's sold as Butcher Wax. Some like the microcrystalline waxes.But whatever type, it is good not only to repel moisture (better thanthe spar varnish, actually) but also to prevent damage to the finish from DEET.Best regards,Reed from brookside.rod@juno.com Thu Sep 18 19:25:43 1997 20:25:13 EDT Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises Have I got wrong,do you have to file a Bailey Woods ferrule to make them fit?Terry Terry; No, you don't have to file Bailey's ferrules to fit them. The filesmentioned in earlier posts (6 cut and 8 cut) are used by those who maketheir own ferrules such as Bailey (and myself). These files, due to their fine cut; remove very little material and leavea fine and flat (or round) finish behind. I used to use hard tool makersstones to fit ferrules but the files due a much better job with much less$#@^%$%)(*&*$#!!!!!!~~~!!!***. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.com from JorgeCarcao@myna.com Thu Sep 18 19:55:07 1997 mail.myna.com(post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-11388) with SMTP id AAA505 0400 Subject: Files for fitting ferrules From: GEORGE_BOURKE@HP-SantaClara-om2.om.hp.comDate: Thu, 18 Sep 97 08:39:23 -0700Subject: Re: Classic Sporting Enterprises Hi All Rodmakers, you directly (Jorge Carcao).The finest cutting files I have seen are used in archery for sharpening broadheads (hunting points, razor sharp). The one I bought was made in Sheffield, England and they aren't anywhere near $35 either. You shouldbe ableto get them at any archery store or try Andersen Archery in Grand Ledge, Michigan (they claim to be the world's largest). George Bourke@HP-SantaClara-om2.om.hp.co To All - I recently talked with Bailey concerning the 8-cut files. Hesaidthat he is building a list of those who want one and has 10 or so on thelist now. The problem is that they are a special order with the factory, andthe min is 60 units. At min, they will be around $35 ea. Should he get thenumbers above 60, the unit cost comes down. As I understand it, the files are a big help in fitting the ferrules, ie., male/female fit. Hope someone will jump in and give more info ontheirusefullness. Regards,RTyree Hi Richard,I have no idea what an 8-cut file is. However, I have used the jewelers files described in the Garrison book. These are extremely fine cutting files and I have used them for several years. They are readily available at most jewelers suppliers and are sometimes known as Swiss jewelers files. I think the come in a #2,4,6,8 cut or "grit" and this is what is being refered to. Jorge Carcao@myna.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Sep 18 20:59:22 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Building Don, my address is: LECLAIR123@aol.com I wasn't sure of your address. I think you were in the proccess of changingit. Dave L. from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 18 21:47:14 1997 Subject: Re: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-18 20:25:07 EDT, you write: I use a hard, largely Carnauba, wax. It's sold as Butcher Wax. Some like the microcrystalline waxes.But whatever type, it is good not only to repel moisture (better thanthe spar varnish, actually) but also to prevent damage to the finish from DEET.Best regards,Reed Good solid advice. Carnuba is the best. Sir Darryl from flyfisher@rhco.com Fri Sep 19 07:00:21 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id HAA05077 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Waxing a rod I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Is thiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the block on thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Reed F. Curry [SMTP:rcurry@jlc.net]Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod Thoman, Brian A. wrote: Does your message mean that you use wax on a straight tung oilfinish?I soak my rods for 24 - 36 hours is pure tung oil. Can I use a carwaxor should I use Wayne's bees wax? Brian Brian,I use a hard, largely Carnauba, wax. It's sold as Butcher Wax. Some like the microcrystalline waxes.But whatever type, it is good not only to repel moisture (betterthanthe spar varnish, actually) but also to prevent damage to the finish from DEET.Best regards,Reed from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Sep 19 07:47:23 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 9/19/97 1:00:53 AM, you wrote: Don - Very interesting experiment. I don't know if you can do it, but itmight be useful to test recovery with and without some load. I suspect youwill find that the hollow rod recovers faster without load, but bogs downwhen it is loaded. Just a theory at this point, but I'd sure like to know theanswer. -- Tom from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Sep 19 08:41:41 1997 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] Terry - the only stealth concern I have is dealing with stealth fish.Richard from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Sep 19 08:58:59 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Waxing a rod carnauba wax dissolves in turps and/or paint thinner, works even betterif you soften it with a little bees wax. Carnauba by itself is a realhard wax and dissolving it in turps or paint thinner turns it into acream but when it dries its real hard. Patrick ----------From: Thoman, Brian A.[SMTP:flyfisher@rhco.com] Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:54 AM Subject: RE: Waxing a rod I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Isthiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the block onthecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Reed F. Curry [SMTP:rcurry@jlc.net]Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod Thoman, Brian A. wrote: Does your message mean that you use wax on a straight tung oilfinish?I soak my rods for 24 - 36 hours is pure tung oil. Can I use acarwaxor should I use Wayne's bees wax? Brian Brian,I use a hard, largely Carnauba, wax. It's sold as Butcher Wax. Some like the microcrystalline waxes.But whatever type, it is good not only to repel moisture (betterthanthe spar varnish, actually) but also to prevent damage to the finish from DEET.Best regards,Reed from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Sep 19 09:17:23 1997 (CEST) ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:04:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Waxing a rod ----------Brian wrote I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Is thiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the block on thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. Brian Carnauba wax is ment to be used on a rotating polishing mop. It is, alongwith several other types of wax, used to polish the handles of thoseexpensive, handmade knives.I suggest You turn to the local library for a "How to make Your own Knife"type of book.. You will find all the necessesary info there. I have never tried melting carnauba, but why not? Try this on a sawn offpiece of cane: Soften the carnaubau with heat (heating gun or hair-drier)Use a rag to spread it on the cane and let it cool. Afterwards: lots ofpolishing. Carnauba takes much more time and effort to put a shine to thancar-wax Regards Carsten from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Sep 19 10:04:49 1997 Subject: Test message I haven't seen a message in over a day - testing to see if I'm droppedor if everyone's been quiet. Don Burnsflyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 19 10:21:11 1997 Subject: Re: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-19 08:01:35 EDT, you write: I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Is thiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the block on thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. I get carnuba wax already softened in a tin from an upscale automotiveproducts store, but it's $25 for 12 ounces. Your half lb. for $10 soundslike a better deal to me. You will have to mix it with beeswax to getit in a soft enough form to use on a rod. I would follow the directionsin Wayne C's book, only use the carnuba and beeswax. You can use thelemon if you want, it does make it more pleasant. Also, mix up alittle at a time. Don't use the whole half lb. A half lb. is probably alifetime supply. Sir Darryl from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Fri Sep 19 10:41:53 1997 08:41:17 -0700 Subject: George Mauer's phone # Subject: Time: 11:27 AMOFFICE MEMO George Mauer's phone # Date: 9/19/97 Does anyone have George Mauer's phone number? Thanks. --Rich from flyfisher@rhco.com Fri Sep 19 10:54:08 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id LAA00108 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Waxing a rod I attempted to make Wayne's mix and the lemon juice kept separating fromthe wax when cooled. Is there a trick to this that I'm missing? Brian -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-19 08:01:35 EDT, you write: I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Isthiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the blockon thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. I get carnuba wax already softened in a tin from an upscale automotiveproducts store, but it's $25 for 12 ounces. Your half lb. for $10soundslike a better deal to me. You will have to mix it with beeswax to getit in a soft enough form to use on a rod. I would follow thedirectionsin Wayne C's book, only use the carnuba and beeswax. You can usethe lemon if you want, it does make it more pleasant. Also, mix up alittle at a time. Don't use the whole half lb. A half lb. is probablyalifetime supply. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 19 12:01:02 1997 Subject: Stress-ed Out In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe upper level. In reality you can go up to 220,000 or 230,000 without any problems. Garrison himself went up to 220,000 on his lighter rods.Garrison believed that below the 140,000 point the bamboo stopped flexing. As you get deeper into stress curves you can begin to pick out certaincharacteristics that tell you what kind of action the rod has, or will have if it hasn't been made yet. A Garrison rod, which I consider to be slow, has a well rounded "hump" near the tip and a fairly slow drop off as it goes towards the handle. Let's see if I can do this with ASCII art. || * * | * * *| * * *| * * * | * ** | *| *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ The rod that I'm always raving about, the Cattanach 7' 0"4 wt, I consider to be fairly fast. It has a stress curve like this: || * | * *| * * | * * | * * | * * *| * * * * ** *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly enhances roll casting. Don't forget to put it in. I did and the rod I made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longer rods, but on shorter rods it's definitely needed. A Paul Young Para 15, what is described as a parabolic action looks like this: || * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| *| *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ Looking at this rod, and never having cast one, I would guess that it would feel fairly slow, due to the enhanced bending near the handle, but able to throw a lot of line, due to the stiff mid section. I would also guess that it could roll cast really well. There are as many variations of stress curves as there are rodmakers. This covers the slow, fast and parabolic actions. Sir Darryl from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Fri Sep 19 12:20:39 1997 Subject: George Mauer's phone # Rich-Try 610-683-6759 for Geo. Mauer.Dennis from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Fri Sep 19 13:34:34 1997 Subject: List on Autopilot! Hey gang...through the grace of the flyfishing gods, I've got thechance to sneak off to Colorado for some fishing. I'll be goneabout a week. If you run into any kind of list problems, letme know and I will attend to them as soon as I return. Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from gmollink@lia.net Fri Sep 19 13:51:11 1997 lia.lia.net (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA23565 for; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:50:08 +0200 Subject: Re: Spine a blank Thanks for the advice, I shall place the guides opposite the spine. Greg MollinkPretoriaSouth Africa from gwbarnes@gwi.net Fri Sep 19 14:29:45 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09168 for ; Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe upper level. These were inch ounces not ounces per square inch. One is a moment theother apressure. George Barnes from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 19 14:55:05 1997 Subject: Re: Short tip rods A raging debate inside my head (I'll get treatment soon ) has been toscarf the tip to the same length, with some other leftover rod section, toequal the combined length of the mid section and new handle combination.Orto just leave the tip and mid at 3' and not worring about the assembledlength.Why not find some old rods that are fairly valueless and try both. That'swhatI'm doing now. (at my rate of building, they should be done by 2001) I know Heddon/Devine used a long tip/short butt design on theirbaitcasterrods to move the ferrule down to a point below the max stress point intherod. If I scarfed the tip to make the tip equal the assembled other 2piecesthat's a 10" move down the shaft for the the ferrule location (all 10"wouldbe in the tip). I guess I should run Hexrod and see what the effects would be. Let me know how they turn out. Florida Terry. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 19 14:55:06 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber No spamming of Sir Darryl please. Besides the reference was to WWII, "The Big One"! (as in the Battle ofBritain et al) WWII Mosquito bombers were easier for the British toproduce because because the didn't drain as much metal from fighterproduction. I believe that the Huricanes fighters were also woodenframes, but I might be very wrong on this. The Hurricane did have Part of it's frame of wood. It was also coveredwithdoped cloth. Not the Falklands war. The Iron Lady sent British Sea Harriers - allmetal planes (and composites). One of the interesting things about the Faluklands was that not all theHarrierswere Sea Harriers (though I believer all the Sea Harriers were there.) Somemark III's were shipped over and had their computer software updated toSeaHarrier standards on the way buy satellite. I remember thinking aboutwhat astrange world it was when you were rebuilding your warplane on the wayto thebattle field. And that's far enough off topic. Sorry, I'm also an aviation buff. Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 19 14:55:07 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-17 11:10:19 EDT, you write: I guess I was thrown off by the "last war". Britian was a member ofthe Coalition and had a fairly large presence there. He didn't saythe last war Britian declared. Sir Darryl, Don't feel bad, it's all in your point of reference.To me the "Last War" was Vietnam. But I don't remember any Britishfightersthere. I do remember that one of the Air Force helicopters had laminated woodenrotors.The Husky, I believe. (Wouldn't know, being a Huey driver, myself.) Florida Terry Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Fri Sep 19 14:55:08 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber Darryl,us Brits do not count the Gulf war as a war or the Falklands.A war to us has to last for 4 years at least.Terry "The English like their heros deadSo 'tis said."(Billy Bishop Goes to war) Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Sep 19 14:58:54 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly enhances roll casting. Don't forget to put it in. I did and the rod I made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longer rods, but on shorter rods it's definitely needed. Sir Daryl ,can you explain the Cattach hinge. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu from TEWhittle@aol.com Fri Sep 19 15:07:14 1997 Subject: Re: George Mauer's phone # George moved this past year. His new phone # 610-756-6385 Tom Whittle from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 19 15:09:42 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-19 15:35:53 EDT, you write: These were inch ounces not ounces per square inch. One is a moment theother apressure. You're right, my mistake. I was thinking about the cross section measuredin square inches. Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 19 16:46:38 1997 (205.236.249.94) Subject: Re: Short tip rods Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-18 10:36:41 EDT, you write: the story goes that Payne on taking a 3 piece rod appart flicked thetipand mid section in a casting motion and one of his more popular rodswere developed. You can take this for what it is worth, lots of stories in this game. A rod does not have to be in equal pieces to be able to cast. Ritzdesigned parabolic rods which the tip was about 6ins longer than thebutt. A 6in length of of wood with a male ferrule was placed into the butt section to keep the lengths equal in the bag.I cannot imagine the reverse of this will make much difference.Terry >> Terry, A raging debate inside my head (I'll get treatment soon ) has beentoscarf the tip to the same length, with some other leftover rodsection, toequal the combined length of the mid section and new handlecombination. Orto just leave the tip and mid at 3' and not worring about theassembledlength. I know Heddon/Devine used a long tip/short butt design on theirbaitcasterrods to move the ferrule down to a point below the max stress point intherod. If I scarfed the tip to make the tip equal the assembled other 2piecesthat's a 10" move down the shaft for the the ferrule location (all 10"wouldbe in the tip). I guess I should run Hexrod and see what the effects would be. Don B. Don,I would have thought that taping some guides on the 2 sections and areel would have been an excellent indication that it was a worthwhileproject.I do not know anything hexrod, I took a look very briefly and decided itwas too scientific for me and I could not prove to myself it was not acrock. After all I am only trying to catch fish, not land a fly on themoon.Terry from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 19 16:46:54 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA13276 +0000 Subject: to all i am hunting for a used rod wrapping mach. if anyone know of one please e- mail at:LHAWKS@WORLDNET.ATT.NETTHANK YOULEWIS HAWKS from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 19 17:19:57 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA28836 +0000 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-19 15:35:53 EDT, you write: These were inch ounces not ounces per square inch. One is a momenttheother apressure. You're right, my mistake. I was thinking about the cross sectionmeasuredin square inches. Darryl Not to start a ****ing contest but if they are stress curves, thenounces per square inch is correct, if its a moment curve theninch-ounces is correct. I've seen the terms used interchangeably on thelist and they mean different things. Moments generate stress whenapplied to a beam so as to bend it. I for one would like to see someconsistency of terminology. It would help in discussions of thetechnical finer points. Best regards,Ed Estlow from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Sep 19 18:28:40 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 97-09-18 21:00:53 EDT, you write: Hello Don: Yours is an interesting point about the hollow rod not castingquite as far, and Ed Estlow's about pith providing some strength. I hadoccasion to cast two rods, one hollow and the other not, but otherwisealike,with results similar to yours. Makes me wonder if a hexagonal, hollowedcrosssection does any distorting towards eliptical as does a circular shapeduringbending and if that weakens an other wise identical rod? Best Regards,Richard Tyree from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Sep 19 18:58:29 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building With all of this talk about hollow building, I ran accross something in Marinaro's "the Ring of the Rise" which talks about the cushioning value of the pith. I wonder what effect removing some of that has one the "feel" of the rod. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu In a message dated 97-09-18 21:00:53 EDT, you write: itdoes not cast as far as the solid rod. Whether this is a result of the pithstiffening the rod or not is unclear. If I was to do it again, I wouldoffset the stiffness thing by making the hollow built about 0.002" larger. Further shop testing of deflection and recovery will be done whenfishingseason is past - mind you it's snowing now. I'll send a further report tothe list when the testing is done. regards, Don Andersen >> Hello Don: Yours is an interesting point about the hollow rod not castingquite as far, and Ed Estlow's about pith providing some strength. I hadoccasion to cast two rods, one hollow and the other not, but otherwisealike,with results similar to yours. Makes me wonder if a hexagonal, hollowedcrosssection does any distorting towards eliptical as does a circular shapeduringbending and if that weakens an other wise identical rod? Best Regards,Richard Tyree from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Sep 19 19:18:59 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building OK, I didn't read this before I posted my previous message. Sorry. It does talk about this in Marinaro's book though. Take a look. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu Don Andersen wrote: Too all, Made my first hollow fluted rod last winter as an experiment. What Ididwas to rework a preexisting taper [ 7'9" 5 wt.] and make two rods - onehollow fluted and one of solid construction and compare the results. Each rod was split from the same culm and the strips wereintermingled toreduce errors of cane culm variance. The hollow fluted rod left bridges on each side of the ferrule and undereach guide. The ferrule bridge was 3" and the guides 1 1/2" @ thestripperand 1" under the snakes. I believed that the bridges would support theseareas of higher stress. The pith was removed leaving about 0.080" of outside power fibers. Thismeant the butt was completely done and the tip only for about the first18". The weight difference was compared on a balance beam using 1 tipandthe butt. The difference was 2 1/4" NC nuts difference. [what 1/4" NCthreaded nut weighs I have no idea but it isn't much.] The fluting was done by using a straight sided carbide router bit on atable with a depth setting device where the hollowing out could be kepttoa reasonable tolerance. The flutes varied by about 0.002>0.003" in depthbetween them. The cork and reel seat were as similar are possible. The result - well the hollow built felt a little lighter as expected but itdoes not cast as far as the solid rod. Whether this is a result of the pithstiffening the rod or not is unclear. If I was to do it again, I wouldoffset the stiffness thing by making the hollow built about 0.002"larger. Further shop testing of deflection and recovery will be done whenfishingseason is past - mind you it's snowing now. I'll send a further report tothe list when the testing is done. regards, Don Andersen Don, Nice, controlled experiment. I, for one, look forward to hearing theresults. My suspicion, as a former "stressor" (engineer performingstress calculations), is that the pith does contribute some, thus whenit is gone, a slightly weaker (less spring energy when bent) rod. Best regardsEd Estlow from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 19 19:19:48 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-19 19:34:01 EDT, you write: Not to start a ****ing contest but if they are stress curves, thenounces per square inch is correct, Okay, I looked at my calaculations, followed the units carefully,and indeed they are ounces per square inch. Not a pressure,as in psi, but stress on the bamboo per square inch of crosssection. Ed, you are no doubt an excellent mechanical engineer.I am but a lowly geologist, retreaded as a computer programmer. Darryl Hayashida from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Sep 19 19:20:34 1997 Subject: Re: Waxing a rod I use carnauba wax as a final finish on net frames. Believe me it ishard. The brand I use is a floor was that is mixed with other waxes.They don't recommend over a five minute drying time before buffing itout. Regards, Steve from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Fri Sep 19 19:24:31 1997 mailfep1-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Andy Royer type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Andy,If your reading the list: thanks for the follow-up and phone call. Don'tknow why the e-mail didn't work? You might want to try it again:triadvertising@sprintmail.com. Call me when the cane is ready forshipping.Thanks,Joe Loverti Loverti Split Cane Flyrodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Sep 19 22:27:27 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber In a message dated 97-09-19 16:09:20 EDT, you write: Terry Yep, it was the Husky, a slow, dumpy little brute with two counterrotating,intermeshing main rotors, no tail rotor, and lots of ways more fun to drivethan a huey. Blades were of aviation grade Spruce laminate, withfiberglassreinforced poly overwrap. Don't remember what the laminating glue was.Ironicaly, the only failure I remember of a blade occurred near where yourlive, the result of an in-flight lightening strike. The blades werecontrolled by small elevator-like tabs located about two thirds to threefourths out from the hubs - those tabs caused the blades to twist forangleof attack changes and thus rotor control, and the hubs were rigid exceptforteeter. I point this out only to show the durabulity of wood/glue as wellasfiberglass, as a set of blades twisted untold hundreds of thousands oftimesduring their service life; in fact, they were in continuous change of twistduring each 360d rotation while in flight. Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 19 23:34:09 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA18369 +0000 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out Darryl, My appologies to you and to the list, if it seemed like I was flaming.It was not my intent. Rigor in terminology is a pet subject of mine andI can get carried away. I'm sure this humble engineer can only hope tohold a candle to you folks who do what I wish I could. Best regards,Ed Estlow from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sat Sep 20 05:09:39 1997 (CEST) ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:00:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out Sir Darryl wrote In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe upper level. In reality you can go up to 220,000 or 230,000 without any problems. Garrison himself went up to 220,000 on his lighter rods.Garrison believed that below the 140,000 point the bamboo stopped flexing. Thank You, Sir D, for a most enlighting explanation qua stess curves.I myself prefer a faster rod, so Your remarks about the Cattanach 7'# 4hasbeen noted. In fact I just disposed of a 7'3" #4 (A gift to a good friendat his 40 years birthday) I have to have a replacement, so I will build theCattanach. Browsing the Tapers Archive I stumbled over a Cross taper, 7'11" #6. Thestress curve looked almost identical to the Cattanach's, but no "hinge".The point is, it reached 300.000 inches per Sq.inch, falling of to 140.000.Re. You above remarks, dos it means, that the tip of this rod isfragile/overstessed? Or does it just means that the rod is on the fastside, with a softish tip-action? Judged purely from the dimensions, these two rods are a kind of matchedpair - fast dryfly rods. Comments are welcomed. Regards Carsten from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Sep 20 09:48:50 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08397 for Subject: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree Richard,I would agree with you, except that I would not use the proviso aboutmodern adhesives.However, I sometimes wonder whether the rods I use, some of whichareapproaching the century mark, might have had a different feel when firstbuilt. A number of writers mention "wearing out" cane rods (throughoverlining) in just two years of steady fishing(this would be the 200fishing days per year that the rest of us only dream of).What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed from MasjC1@aol.com Sat Sep 20 10:32:50 1997 Subject: Lathes Recommendations I'm in the process of gathering the tools and materials necessary to buildrods and I'm wondering what type of lathes other rod makers use orrecommend.I'm not interested in turning ferrules and other metals just the ferrulestations and handles. Thanks, Mark Cole PSDarryl, What do you mean lowly geologist? We are not low we just lookdeeper! from sats@gte.net Sat Sep 20 11:54:45 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed Interesting you bring this question up. After the Suncoat Flyfisher'smonthlymeeting, I was talking to the gray bearded guy, Carl Hanson. Carl took thetipsection. I'd been working on, at each end between the thumb and finger ofeachhand. He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. He claimedthathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indication ofhow much"life" was in the rod. Anyone ever try this. (as I wright this I picture hundreds of rod builder jumping from theircomputers, running to their shops and twisting sections of bamboo rods!!!) Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Sep 20 12:06:11 1997 Sun, 21 Sep 1997 01:05:35 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations The Sherline lathes are worth looking into. Plenty accurate enought if you do decide to make ferrules and reel seats too. Tony On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 MasjC1@aol.com wrote: I'm in the process of gathering the tools and materials necessary tobuildrods and I'm wondering what type of lathes other rod makers use orrecommend.I'm not interested in turning ferrules and other metals just the ferrulestations and handles. Thanks, Mark Cole PSDarryl, What do you mean lowly geologist? We are not low we just lookdeeper! /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from flyfisher@rhco.com Sat Sep 20 12:09:20 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id NAA26051 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber I haven't had any cane rods very long and don't know about the workinglife. I do, however, wonder how quickly you can wear out a rod byoverlining or heavy double hauling. These can't be good for bamboo. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Reed F. Curry [SMTP:rcurry@jlc.net]Sent: Saturday, September 20, 1997 10:51 AM Subject: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree Richard,I would agree with you, except that I would not use the provisoaboutmodern adhesives.However, I sometimes wonder whether the rods I use, some ofwhich areapproaching the century mark, might have had a different feel whenfirstbuilt. A number of writers mention "wearing out" cane rods (throughoverlining) in just two years of steady fishing(this would be the 200fishing days per year that the rest of us only dream of).What do other list members know of the working life of theircane rods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Sep 20 13:52:05 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 9/20/97 9:31:20 AM, you wrote: Richard - One of the points deLespinay makes in his book is that this doeshappen. He tries to get around it by shortening the hollow sections toabout3" in the butt and 2" in the tip, with about 1" solid spots in between. Hearranges the solid spots to coincide with the nodes, thereby eliminating apotential weak point. Of course, you do not get quite as much weight out ofthe rod this way. It seems to me that this is a good approach to theproblem.and the trade of in weight is probably worth it. -- Tom from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 17:23:50 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-20 08:32:14 EDT, you write: My appologies to you and to the list, if it seemed like I was flaming.It was not my intent. Rigor in terminology is a pet subject of mine andI can get carried away. I'm sure this humble engineer can only hope tohold a candle to you folks who do what I wish I could. No, I didn't take it as a flame at all. I was truly grateful that it made mego back and take a careful look at my units. Like you said I had seenounces per square inch and inch ounces used interchangably, and nowI have it fixed in my mind which is which. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 17:30:34 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? In a message dated 97-09-20 12:58:32 EDT, you write: He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. He claimed thathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indication ofhow much "life" was in the rod. I have seen this test to see if the splines are beginning to delaminate.If they are, large gaps can be seen it you twist the section as youdescribe. Sir Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Sep 20 17:35:02 1997 (205.236.249.139) Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: What do other list members know of the working life of theircane rods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed Interesting you bring this question up. After the Suncoat Flyfisher'smonthlymeeting, I was talking to the gray bearded guy, Carl Hanson. Carltook the tipsection. I'd been working on, at each end between the thumb and fingerof eachhand. He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. Heclaimed thathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indicationof how much"life" was in the rod. Anyone ever try this.(as I wright this I picture hundreds of rod builder jumping from their computers, running to their shops and twisting sections of bamboorods!!!) Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net Terry,I bet you felt like twisting the guys head to see how much life he hadleft in him?Terry. from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 17:36:24 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-20 06:13:15 EDT, you write: The point is, it reached 300.000 inches per Sq.inch, falling of to 140.000.Re. You above remarks, dos it means, that the tip of this rod isfragile/overstessed? Or does it just means that the rod is on the fastside, with a softish tip-action? I think 300,000 is really pushing it. I wouldn't try the next heavier lineon this rod. It's probably okay for short 30' or shorter casts. Sir Darryl from MasjC1@aol.com Sat Sep 20 17:46:07 1997 Subject: Lathe Recommendation (2) I've been looking at the Woodcraft catalog and they have a CARBA-TECmine- lathe with a 3/8" bore through and 13" between centers. Would thisbesuitable? Does anyone have any experience with this product? Thanks. Mark Cole from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 17:50:26 1997 Subject: Hinge (Was:Stress-ed Out) In a message dated 97-09-20 04:25:15 EDT, you write: The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly enhances roll casting. Don't forget to put it in. I did and the rod I made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longer rods, but on shorter rods it's definitely needed. Sir Daryl ,can you explain the Cattach hinge. Perhaps Wayne can explain it better, but without it on a 6' 2"3 wt it was hard to lift the line off the water in a roll cast, andthe rod tended to throw waves in the line at the top of the loop.The hinge gives the rod a momentary pause as you start the forward stroke and lets the rod lift the line up off the water better. Sir Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Sep 20 17:54:49 1997 (205.236.249.139) Subject: non computer rodmaking Hi,this list seems to follow computer generated tapers based on Garrison'smath.Is there anyone that just that designs the old fashioned way likemyself?Terry Ackland from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Sep 20 18:45:42 1997 TAA16416 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:45:38 Subject: Garrison Tapers To Jon Lintvet etc.This message was delayed a bit while I got resubscribed.Jon, many of your questions will be answered when you get a book or two.Also at the Catskill Gathering you committed the sin of walking right byuswithout cheering while Dan netted that gigantic brown for me in theJunctionPool. But your questions interest me so I'll forgive you this time. Two of the greatest flyrod mysteries are Garrison's E-tapers and his lineweights. His E-tapers pick up a thousanth or so here and there but on page273 it states that one of the major differences is that Garry always choseone size larger tip guide for the E-version. That doesn't seem to agreewithhis published tapers on pages 279 and 280. Regarding his line sizes, I've tried to work the computer programsbackward to calculate line sizes for his trout tapers but nobody marketssize 4.35 or 5.41 line sizes so I just guess at them like everybody else.Still the bottom line is that I love Garrison's tapers and his stresscurve concept which seems to work even for five siders. Bill from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Sep 20 18:45:43 1997 TAA16419 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:45:39 Subject: Steak knives To hide glue users and other innovators,Thirty years of field testing epoxy- bonded rods may not be convincingbuthow about this: Over ten years ago the wood handle of one of our cherishedsteak knives split. I cleaned away the accumulated grease and reset itwithepon. Since then it's been through the dishwasher at least two times aweek(we don't just use it for steak). Today I taped a reel and guides onto itand was able to cast out the entire line even though it has a crazy stresscurve. Bill from sats@gte.net Sat Sep 20 19:03:37 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber I haven't had any cane rods very long and don't know about the workinglife. I do, however, wonder how quickly you can wear out a rod byoverlining or heavy double hauling. These can't be good for bamboo. I don't think they'd be any worse on bamboo then on anything else. I wonder if graphite or glass rods have changed their character over theyears? Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Sat Sep 20 19:08:30 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote:Carltook the tipsection. I'd been working on, at each end between the thumb and fingerof eachhand. He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. Heclaimed thathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indicationof how much"life" was in the rod. Anyone ever try this. Terry,I bet you felt like twisting the guys head to see how much life he hadleft in him?Terry. I was a little concerned because I was getting ready to do a small repairon thetip. But, Hell, Terry the guy's older then you are!!! Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Sep 20 19:10:52 1997 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations Mark, It doesn't matter what you are going to use the lathe for NOW. Astimegoes on you may want to make your own ferrules or reel seat components,etc.So, you should buy the BEST lathe you can AFFORD.. It doesn't have to be anew lathe. I bought my South Bend Toolroom Lathe, used, for a great price.and I can turn ANYTHING with it. Just make sure it is in good shape.Don'tbuyone of those lathe/mill combo's. Stick with a good name brand lathe.South Bend, Atlas from sats@gte.net Sat Sep 20 19:12:40 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. He claimed thathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indicationofhow much "life" was in the rod. I have seen this test to see if the splines are beginning to delaminate.If they are, large gaps can be seen it you twist the section as youdescribe. S.D. The usual method I use is to roll the section across the palm of my hand,thesame way I'd look for the Spline. Only I listen for the sound of bamboorubbingon bamboo, or the very quiet "pip" of two sections spreading then joiningagain.( I had one almost fall apart in my hand one day! They're easy to spot whenyoucan see daylight between the sections.) Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Sep 20 19:17:01 1997 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations Tony, The only thing I find wrong with that type of lathe is the weight. Itis very light.You will get alot of vibration when turning in a lathe. A lathe with moreweight can absorb alot of the vibrations,giving better accuracy. Take myturret lathe for example.It weighs aroung 1,000 lbs. It is very,very accurate. When turningferrules,you want the best accuracy you can get. Dave L from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Sep 20 19:22:50 1997 Subject: Re: Lathe Recommendation (2) Mark, I would stay away from the very small lathes. Sooner or latter youwillwantto make something and that lathe will be too small. You will wish you hadbought a larger lathe. I'm not saying to buy a large turret lathe like Ihave. But, somethingthat will handle 3/4in. di. and possibly around 20in. between centers.I'mtalking from experiance. I've been using a lathe for gunsmithing and rodbuilding for thirty years. Dave L from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Sep 20 19:24:07 1997 Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:23:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Steak knives On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Bill Fink wrote: To hide glue users and other innovators,Thirty years of field testing epoxy- bonded rods may not be convincingbuthow about this: Over ten years ago the wood handle of one of ourcherishedsteak knives split. I cleaned away the accumulated grease and reset itwithepon. Since then it's been through the dishwasher at least two times aweek(we don't just use it for steak). Today I taped a reel and guides onto itand was able to cast out the entire line even though it has a crazy stresscurve. Bill How about posting it's taper? ;-) Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Sep 20 19:50:01 1997 Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:49:46 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Tony, The only thing I find wrong with that type of lathe is the weight. Itis very light.You will get alot of vibration when turning in a lathe. A lathe with moreweight can absorb alot of the vibrations,giving better accuracy. Take myturret lathe for example.It weighs aroung 1,000 lbs. It is very,very accurate. When turningferrules,you want the best accuracy you can get. Dave L Dave,The Sherline is a pretty good lathe and very accurate. I've had one for about a year and use it all the time and find the vibration minimal, in fact none I can tell when it's mounted as suggested though of course it must be present.Your point is 100% correct though. I now wish I'd bought a brute like the one you describe because a lathe is so nice to have for other jobs. I went looking for a milling machine yesterday and started looking at attachments for the Sherline and wound up deciding on a machine with a footprint of about 3 sq feet. Luckily my wife was present and kept me on a tight lead, otherwise I'd now be extending my house so I can put the thing somewhere and since I'd have the milling machine, well I'd have to upgrade the lathe too.This is why I got the Sherline in the first place as I don't have much space so I think if you have the space buy the biggest lathe you can otherwise the Sherline is great. Looking forward to getting that snake maker. I found a brand called JNT who make plating equipment and solutions of the type described by yourself and Darryl H (I hesitate to call you Sir D as there have been too many knights goaled here over various things for me to use the term in a complimentay way), so thanks to you both for your suggestions. Tony/***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from GLohkamp@aol.com Sat Sep 20 19:59:31 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking Terry Yes there is a few ... l design my rods based on straight tapers (uniform)reduction.and manipulate them from there . Empirical rod design is there any otherway??? gary from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Sep 20 21:57:58 1997 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations Tony, it sounds like your wife is a smart woman. I have a large millingmachine inmy shop. But, I find I do most of my work with the lathe. I thought I woulduse the milling machine alot more than I do. Unless you have a particularpurpose for a milling machine,I would use the space you have for a larger lathe.Then at alater timeyou can get a milling attachment for your lathe.. Don't forget,you can turnsmall parts in a large lathe , but you can't turn large parts in a smalllathe. Your Snake Maker is on it's way. I sent it out this morning. Aust. is oneof my favorite places. If I ever get enough money,I would like to visittheresomeday. IfI do,I will be sure to look you up. Dave L from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Sep 20 22:38:29 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber At 10:51 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote:Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree Richard,I would agree with you, except that I would not use the proviso aboutmodern adhesives.However, I sometimes wonder whether the rods I use, some of whichareapproaching the century mark, might have had a different feel when firstbuilt. A number of writers mention "wearing out" cane rods (throughoverlining) in just two years of steady fishing(this would be the 200fishing days per year that the rest of us only dream of).What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed Reed, Richard, et al, Am attempting to "kill" a cane rod by fishing/abusing it to death. Ferrulesare about worn out and require waxing several times a summer - rod wasrolled once and refinished twice. The second time I "globbed" the finish onto get me by till this winter. About 4500 hrs. and counting. Mo otherfailures - Ralph Moon mentioned it'll likely outlast me. Suspect he'sright. I don't use sinking lines on it but use it like any other rod -heavy nymphing included. It's my most used rod - fish it all winter toowhen the weather is above 35F. Is it getting soft - hard to tell. The breakdown, if happening, is slight. Unfortunately, I didn't do some tests priorto the attempt to kill it. Would have been useful to have a benchmark andmeasure the differences, if any, throughout the years.As far as cane - I don't think they are all that tender. After all, theylikely have caught larger & more freshwater fish in the past than all theplastic ones combined. regards, Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Sep 20 22:38:32 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building At 14:51 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 9/20/97 9:31:20 AM, you wrote: section does any distorting towards eliptical as does a circular shapeduringbending and if that weakens an other wise identical rod? >> Richard - One of the points deLespinay makes in his book is that this doeshappen. He tries to get around it by shortening the hollow sections toabout3" in the butt and 2" in the tip, with about 1" solid spots in between. Hearranges the solid spots to coincide with the nodes, thereby eliminating apotential weak point. Of course, you do not get quite as much weight outofthe rod this way. It seems to me that this is a good approach to theproblem.and the trade of in weight is probably worth it. -- Tom Tom, That's about what I did - leave about 1" of "dam"/3" of travel. The thingis still a little on the "weak" side. Didn't arrange hollowing around thenodes as a I use a 3*3 system and it just got too complex to avoid them. Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Sep 20 22:38:35 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking At 18:53 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote:Hi,this list seems to follow computer generated tapers based on Garrison'smath.Is there anyone that just that designs the old fashioned way likemyself?Terry Ackland Terry, Well, I don't use a computer generated taper - just whittle out a rod witha pocket knife and a wooden ruler. Is that the old fashoined way? Don from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 23:30:01 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking In a message dated 97-09-20 23:44:51 EDT, you write: Well, I don't use a computer generated taper - just whittle out a rodwitha pocket knife and a wooden ruler. Is that the old fashoined way? I think the point he is trying to make is that a computer is justa tool. For some of us it makes rod design easier, just likea plane is easier to use than a pocket knife. Or a caliperis easier to use than a ruler. For the guys involved in thestress curve discussion, it gives us all a common pointof reference. If we all lived within a few miles of each otherwe could all get together and cast a few rods, then wewould all have a common reference. But we don't, so thecommon point of reference we use is hexrod calculations and stress curves. There is nothing magical or high techjust because we use computers. It's just easier for usbecause we all have one. Sir Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 20 23:39:38 1997 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations In a message dated 97-09-20 20:51:26 EDT, you write: Darryl H (I hesitate to call you Sir D as there have been too many knights goaled here over various things for me to use the term in a complimentay way), so thanks to you both for your suggestions. Not to worry. Anybody calling me Sir D on this list I will take asa compliment. After all the title was given as a sincere thank you after I helped a fellow rodmaker. Sir D from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sun Sep 21 05:31:27 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA27464 for; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:23:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Hollow Building Tom wrote Richard - One of the points deLespinay makes in his book is that thisdoeshappen. He tries to get around it by shortening the hollow sections toabout3" in the butt and 2" in the tip, with about 1" solid spots in between.Hearranges the solid spots to coincide with the nodes, thereby eliminatingapotential weak point. Of course, you do not get quite as much weight outofthe rod this way. It seems to me that this is a good approach to theproblem.and the trade of in weight is probably worth it. -- Tom I could be wrong, but aren't You descriping cane in its natural form? Ijust wonder if we are doing an intellectual exercise, reaching the samesolution as Powell did in his 1931 patent: Imitate the cane, and You haveTHE right solution.Regards Carsten from jfoster@gte.net Sun Sep 21 09:44:16 1997 Subject: Waves Darryl Another flame? I've worked for 38 years to perfect my wavey linetechnique. Jerry from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:00:41 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 9/21/97 10:32:35 AM, you wrote: Carsten - Yes, and that is what attracted me to the method in the firstplace. The Powell system approximates the method chosen by MotherNature overmillions of years of evolution. It seemed like a good place to start. -- Tom from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Sep 21 10:10:35 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA29685 for Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods and SCIENTIFIC Proof of the inferiorityof cane Don Andersen wrote: At 10:51 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote:Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree Richard,I would agree with you, except that I would not use the provisoaboutmodern adhesives.However, I sometimes wonder whether the rods I use, some ofwhich areapproaching the century mark, might have had a different feel whenfirstbuilt. A number of writers mention "wearing out" cane rods (throughoverlining) in just two years of steady fishing(this would be the 200fishing days per year that the rest of us only dream of).What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed Reed, Richard, et al, Am attempting to "kill" a cane rod by fishing/abusing it to death.Ferrulesare about worn out and require waxing several times a summer - rod wasrolled once and refinished twice. The second time I "globbed" the finishonto get me by till this winter. About 4500 hrs. and counting. Mo otherfailures - Ralph Moon mentioned it'll likely outlast me. Suspect he'sright. I don't use sinking lines on it but use it like any other rod -heavy nymphing included. It's my most used rod - fish it all winter toowhen the weather is above 35F. Is it getting soft - hard to tell. Thebreakdown, if happening, is slight. Unfortunately, I didn't do some tests priorto the attempt to kill it. Would have been useful to have a benchmark andmeasure the differences, if any, throughout the years.As far as cane - I don't think they are all that tender. After all, theylikely have caught larger & more freshwater fish in the past than all theplastic ones combined. regards, DonDon,As I say, my favorite (read - most used) rod is almost 70 years old,and seems to me, as good as the day it was made (despite waxingferrules, new varnish, etc.). However, I am not the original owner andthus have no point of reference. I fish it hard, but I hope, wisely,only occasionally slapping it into the water to save me from a bad spillwhile wading.I agree with your assertion that "cane ain't that tender". A hook digis easily repaired, the same fault on a graphite would cause its demiseshortly thereafter. This brings up an interesting test related totwisting:"the following details are given from a technical essay by Phillip Clock from Fenwick ... on the virtue of High Modulus Graphite... The testswere done with three rods of similar power classifications but differentconstructions, all being number eight, two-piece, eight-feet-six-incheslong: one made of impregnated split cane, another of fiberglass intubular form, and the other of graphite. The tip sections of all therods were flexed at an angle produced by an 18 oz. weight (so providingan equal force of resistance to the three rods); and the spinningcontinued until tip failure (breakage) occurred. [My note: obviouslyspun in a lathe] Naturally an accurate record of the revolutions waslisted. The bamboo was the first to break with a count of 79,000revolutions, the glass rod broke with a total of 290,000, and thegraphite was removed , still unbroken, after an amazing 1,250,000revolutions. THIS TEST PROVES WITHOUT QUESTION HOW THE QUALITY OFMATERIALS FOR ROD MAKING HAS IMPROVED IN THE LAST TWENTY-FIVEYEARS.(caps mine)" from "The Art and Craftsmanship of Fly Fishing" by Alf Walker (don't buythis book) Ain't that a hoot. I love science. I wonder if natural rubber would havestood the test as well? (I was foaming at the mouth after I first readthis paragraph. I've calmed down since.) Best regards,Reed from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:18:30 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 9/21/97 3:43:26 AM, you wrote: Don - Thanks for the insight. I think your starting point is a bit moreinformative than mine. I built one of the tapers from the "Planing Form"article; the diameter is larger than normal, perhaps to compensate for theweakness, or perhaps for casting preference. Since Powell and Winston gotinto this for tournament casting, there must be a balance point betweenincreased diameter and hollowing, that produces a more powerful rod. AsTerryA. once mentioned, we are re-inventing the wheel here. The list is a bighelp, I think, for those of us who can't run off a bunch of experimentalrodsin a hurry. -- Tom PS. I used the 2-2-2 node system, and was able to space them just right. from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Sep 21 10:41:21 1997 Subject: Re: Waves In a message dated 97-09-21 10:45:51 EDT, you write: Another flame? I've worked for 38 years to perfect my wavey linetechnique. Sideways waves for slack is okay. Up and down waves tend notto help too much. Sir D from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Sep 21 11:41:11 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 97-09-21 06:32:35 EDT, you write: Carsten - Here is my two cents worth just to bring you up to date on thesubject as I see it, which is probably much different from how others do.Like a lot of builders, I became fascinated with the idea of hollow building. Mine was an attempt to have a bigger rod without necessarily having aheavier rod. Like so many, I had thought that an 8-ft, 5 or 6-wt rod wasabout the practical limit for bamboo (and my abilities). Several postingsonthis over the last year, though, indicate this is not necessarily so.Several builders have independently arrived at the strategy of designingin"fabricated nodes". With me, the idea was not my own creativity, butcame from Harry Brotherton's book, "Making Fishing Rods as a Hobby", StanleyPaul,London, 1st published 1960. To me, this was an ingenious idea, imulatingnature - what worked so well with bamboo in the natural state beingadaptedseemed quite logical. This was before the hollow fluting form wasdeveloped fromThe Planing Form are presently on the way to you). To me, fabricatednodeswere the most practical way to go as I could see no way to do hollowflutingwith easily fabricated tools. Like you, I now want to try the flutingmethod. Will probably go overboard with the idea, as I usually do with differentaspects of this art. Want to build a fairly large rod with very thin walls,using both methods. Presently, have built rods with walls from .070 downto.045 thickness from but towards tip in both fly rods and (bait) castingrodsusing the fabricated node method, and have had no failures. Want to builda9 to 9.5 foot big rod, using both methods and the minimum thicknessthroughout the rod. Mostly, just to see what happens. I realize myinvolvment in this is just so much flatulent in the wind, but my shop isprimarily a retirement play pen and I mostly do it for fun. Please keep intouch with your hollow fluting progress. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Sep 21 11:42:21 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods and SCIENTIFIC Proof of the inferiorityof cane In a message dated 97-09-21 11:16:52 EDT, you write: Reed - Next time I want a rod for lathe spinning, will definitely choosegraphite. Next time I go fishing, will definitley choos bamboo. Yes, thatwas a hoot!Regards,Richard from Canerods@aol.com Sun Sep 21 13:21:41 1997 Subject: Re: cork reel seat In a message dated 97-08-01 00:42:42 EDT, you write: I found a cork spacer Ni-silver D/L C&R reatseat at Bob Marriott'syesterday- cost was $15.50. They had U/L versions too. Made by Cortland - #309. Don Burns PS - Email to "Flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com" is still broken, I can't seem toresub. to rodmakers from there. New ISP might be required soon. PPS - Morgan's are still in production. Latest USA price is $59,000! --Page96 Oct R&T magazine. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 21 13:39:09 1997 with SMTP id AAA11932 for ;Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:38:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations MasjC1@aol.com wrote: I'm in the process of gathering the tools and materials necessary tobuildrods and I'm wondering what type of lathes other rod makers use orrecommend.I'm not interested in turning ferrules and other metals just the ferrulestations and handles. Thanks, Mark Cole PSDarryl, What do you mean lowly geologist? We are not low we just lookdeeper! Hi all! (At least I can reply to the list from my home e-mail account.) Re:lathes -- I haven't bought one yet but am seriously tempted by theSmithy 1220XL. It is a lathe / mill combination w/ autofeed and theability to take C-5 collets on the lathe and R-8 collets on the mill. It was featured a few issues ago in Home Shop Machinist (magazine) andreceived generally good reviews (they noticed a few things out oftolerance and fixed them with the help of the importer in Ann Arbor,MI). Part of what I find so tempting about it is that it is big enoughto turn a 5" fly reel on after accounting for the carriage and tool restbut is still bench-top in size, not to heavy (~400 lb), runs off ofsingle phase 100v, and (usually) sells for about $1800 (seems like it isalways "on sale" with $450 tool pack thrown in). Has anyone tried thislathe / mill? George Bourke from jmj@post5.tele.dk Sun Sep 21 14:29:16 1997 0000 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA14938 +0200 Subject: how too unsubscribe from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Sep 21 14:50:30 1997 Subject: Wayne C Hinge, thanks Sir D. Wayne, if you see this, can you explain what the Cattanach Hinge is? Ihave seen Sir Daryl discuss it before, and I understand what it does to the cast, but I don't know what it is. I expect that the hinge off of my front door won't work. I did not see it in your book, perhaps it is in there and I missed it. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu In a message dated 97-09-20 04:25:15 EDT, you write: The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly enhances roll casting. Don't forget to put it in. I did and the rod I made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longer rods, but on shorter rods it's definitely needed. Sir Daryl ,can you explain the Cattach hinge. Perhaps Wayne can explain it better, but without it on a 6' 2"3 wt it was hard to lift the line off the water in a roll cast, andthe rod tended to throw waves in the line at the top of the loop.The hinge gives the rod a momentary pause as you start the forward stroke and lets the rod lift the line up off the water better. Sir Darryl from JHecht9234@aol.com Sun Sep 21 15:45:23 1997 Subject: Rod sets I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticed what maybea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips was slightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the other direction,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near the breakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or so seconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight but noticeable"memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way. Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dipping setup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do with thefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section strip that hadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showed memory aswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is a problemwiththe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal property ofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I would appreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it, andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is this whatisreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory? Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been able totestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sun Sep 21 16:16:54 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA04098 for; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Hollow Building Richard wrote Carsten - Here is my two cents worth just to bring you up to date on thesubject as I see it, which is probably much different from how others do. Richard Hollow-fluting the "fabricated nodes". If I get it right, You plan tocombine the Stoner and the Powell systems. It just might succeed - I dothink I can visualize it. I hereby name it: The Tyree system - by whichname it should be known in the future. Joining this list 3 weeks ago has been one of my better ideas. I too didnot think it possible to make a fishable rod, more than 8 feet long. Itried once and made a copy of Hardy's "The Halford Knockabout" - all 9 feetand 6 inches weighing in at an impressive 7 and three quarters of anounce.Not having the muscles of a tennis pro I gave it up, it was simply tooheavy. Mentioning this in a conversation with one of the fellows at theHardy Museum gave the reaction: "You simply don't spend enough timefishing." Having a 62 years old house, a 10 years old Volvo, Two kids, a wife and anew job, demanding some fifty hours each week, limitates the hours in myworkshop. All the same, the Tyree System will be tried out this winter. the title of King Richard the 1st ? (Sir D, if You read this: No offencement). Will keep You informed of progress/failure Best regards Carsten from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Sep 21 16:40:15 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building Carsten, too bad about the Volvo. (kidding, owner of a 26 year old Triumph) Richard wrote Carsten - Here is my two cents worth just to bring you up to date on thesubject as I see it, which is probably much different from how othersdo. Richard Hollow-fluting the "fabricated nodes". If I get it right, You plan tocombine the Stoner and the Powell systems. It just might succeed - I dothink I can visualize it. I hereby name it: The Tyree system - by whichname it should be known in the future. Joining this list 3 weeks ago has been one of my better ideas. I too didnot think it possible to make a fishable rod, more than 8 feet long. Itried once and made a copy of Hardy's "The Halford Knockabout" - all 9feetand 6 inches weighing in at an impressive 7 and three quarters of anounce.Not having the muscles of a tennis pro I gave it up, it was simply tooheavy. Mentioning this in a conversation with one of the fellows at theHardy Museum gave the reaction: "You simply don't spend enough timefishing." Having a 62 years old house, a 10 years old Volvo, Two kids, a wife and anew job, demanding some fifty hours each week, limitates the hours inmyworkshop. All the same, the Tyree System will be tried out this winter. the title of King Richard the 1st ? (Sir D, if You read this: No offencement). Will keep You informed of progress/failure Best regards Carsten Robert ClarkeFinancial Aid DirectorEastern Oregon University(541)962- 3551rclarke@eou.edu from mcreek@sirus.com Sun Sep 21 16:55:14 1997 Subject: Re: Waxing a rod Yes. The trick is to use lemon OIL, not juice! Regards,Brian Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I attempted to make Wayne's mix and the lemon juice kept separatingfromthe wax when cooled. Is there a trick to this that I'm missing? Brian -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-19 08:01:35 EDT, you write: I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10. Isthiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use the blockon thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. I get carnuba wax already softened in a tin from an upscale automotiveproducts store, but it's $25 for 12 ounces. Your half lb. for $10soundslike a better deal to me. You will have to mix it with beeswax to getit in a soft enough form to use on a rod. I would follow thedirectionsin Wayne C's book, only use the carnuba and beeswax. You can usethe lemon if you want, it does make it more pleasant. Also, mix up alittle at a time. Don't use the whole half lb. A half lb. is probablyalifetime supply. Sir Darryl from mcreek@sirus.com Sun Sep 21 17:02:28 1997 Subject: Re: Lathes Recommendations Well, I needed a lathe recently. And after mega research and review, withan eyetoward versatility, I bought the Nova 3000 from Woodcraft, and mountedit on a500 pound base I had welded up locally from 8" I-beams. Now I can turngrips upto 16" over the bed or 30" on the auxilliary tool rest. I might make somebowlsand stuff as well. . . .(G). Along with some tools and accessories I gotoutfitted for just over $2000. (Don't tell my wife!) Brian MasjC1@aol.com wrote: I'm in the process of gathering the tools and materials necessary tobuildrods and I'm wondering what type of lathes other rod makers use orrecommend.I'm not interested in turning ferrules and other metals just the ferrulestations and handles. Thanks, Mark Cole PSDarryl, What do you mean lowly geologist? We are not low we just lookdeeper! from GLohkamp@aol.com Sun Sep 21 17:04:33 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets l would be looking at the glue.. and or the type of heat treatment done tothe rod .. what type of glue did you use?? l had a a tip section do thesame thing and it was because the glue had failed and the strips wereslidingpast one another... this happened when l straightened the section with tomuch heat after glue up... l use urac 185 to glue up my rods .. if thats not the case look at the time and temp of your heat treating.before glue up and very important if you use epoxy the post heattreatmenttime and temp. l like to heat treat my strips before glue up at 325-350deg seemsto be working very well. Gary from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Sep 21 18:11:16 1997 Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:11:06 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Rod sets On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 JHecht9234@aol.com wrote: I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticed whatmay bea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips was slightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the other direction,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near the breakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or so seconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight but noticeable"memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way. Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dipping setup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do with thefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section strip thathadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showed memoryaswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is a problemwiththe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal property ofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I would appreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it, andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is this whatisreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory? Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been able totestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". How long did you heat treat for?Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Sep 21 18:39:30 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking Terry,Yep,there's me.Hank. P.S. I use the computer to compare my tapers. You'd be surprised how manyshow sresses above 220,000 psi! Just goes to show the limitations of thecomputer programs.-this should stir the pot a little. from JHecht9234@aol.com Sun Sep 21 19:01:59 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets One rod was heat treated on the Garrison timetable. The other was withsimilar temps but for approx. 20 minutes. The glue was URAC 185 on both. from sats@gte.net Sun Sep 21 19:09:38 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking Yes there is a few ... l design my rods based on straight tapers(uniform)reduction.and manipulate them from there . Empirical rod design is there any otherway??? Gary, You mean you change the taper AFTER the glue has set? Or do you startwith astraight taper, then build the next rod a little different, and so on? Florida TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 21 20:35:57 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun,21 Sep 1997 21:35:50 EDT Subject: Bark! I was wondering if anyone could add to a discussion on final planing withthe bark on or off. Just interested in what people have to say. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 21 20:49:06 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun,21 Sep 1997 21:48:59 EDT Subject: Re: Garrison Tapers Thanks for the response. I appreciate it. When will you be fishing theSalmon River? I am going up there this weekend to fish with mygirlfriend. I'll let you know what happens. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from GLohkamp@aol.com Sun Sep 21 20:59:27 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets You may consider increasing the heat treating time... l dont know that 6or 7 min at any temp is going to do much of anything to the bamboo. Gary Lohkamp from GLohkamp@aol.com Sun Sep 21 21:21:26 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking Terry l start with a straight taper what l would call my base taper and tweekitalittle on paper then build it . l like the hump that Garrison built intohis rods over last 20 inches so l'll add that in for example . l feel thatthe hump helps to dampen the rod tip. from there l just play with theoverallslope of the rod . l worked out a taper that l build in 5 ft sections and depending on where lmake my cut l can make several different rod lenghts and weights.. Kinda aproduction idea which l am sure has been used before , it makes a good rod. Gary from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Mon Sep 22 05:47:05 1997 97 03:46:30 -0700 Subject: Re: cork reel seat In addition to the Cortland ones (Madison River Fishing Co., 800-227- 7127,also has them), I believe that REC offers cork as a spacer option on bothN/Sand aluminum reelseats and have the dual ring as well as cap and ringstyles. --Rich------------------------------ In a message dated 97-08-01 00:42:42 EDT, you write: I found a cork spacer Ni-silver D/L C&R reatseat at Bob Marriott'syesterday- cost was $15.50. They had U/L versions too. Made by Cortland - #309. Don Burns PS - Email to "Flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com" is still broken, I can't seem toresub. to rodmakers from there. New ISP might be required soon. PPS - Morgan's are still in production. Latest USA price is $59,000! --Page96 Oct R&T magazine. ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 11:29:43-0700 Subject: Re: cork reel seat from khube@benmeadows.com Mon Sep 22 07:47:35 1997 Subject: Re: Bark! At 09:35 PM 9/21/97 -0400, you wrote:I was wondering if anyone could add to a discussion on final planing withthe bark on or off. Just interested in what people have to say. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York====================================================================John, I think I'm one of the more radical types who prefers to leave the enamel(aka, bark) on through the final work. Very simply, the binding and excessglue comes off very easily. However, you have to remember to measure theenamel thickness so you know what the final dimensions should be. Youthenhave to sand or scrape the enamel off and be disciplined enough to avoid"cheating" in the final dimensions with too much sanding. It works for me!! Karl Hube F. Karl Hube, President ******************************* Ben Meadows Co., Inc. * Ben Meadsows Co. has been *Atlanta, Georgia * named Georgia's 1997 Family *khube@benmeadows.com * Business of the Year !! ******************************** from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Sep 22 08:37:09 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id JAA08968 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Waxing a rod Thanks. I'll have to try this. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Brian Creek [SMTP:mcreek@sirus.com]Sent: Sunday, September 21, 1997 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod Yes. The trick is to use lemon OIL, not juice! Regards,Brian Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I attempted to make Wayne's mix and the lemon juice kept separatingfromthe wax when cooled. Is there a trick to this that I'm missing? Brian -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Waxing a rod In a message dated 97-09-19 08:01:35 EDT, you write: I have seen carnauba wax sold in half lb. blocks for about $10.Isthiswhat you mean? Do I need to melt it at all or do I use theblockon thecane? Seems kind of hard. Thanks. I get carnuba wax already softened in a tin from an upscaleautomotiveproducts store, but it's $25 for 12 ounces. Your half lb. for $10soundslike a better deal to me. You will have to mix it with beeswax togetit in a soft enough form to use on a rod. I would follow thedirectionsin Wayne C's book, only use the carnuba and beeswax. You can usethe lemon if you want, it does make it more pleasant. Also, mix upalittle at a time. Don't use the whole half lb. A half lb. isprobablyalifetime supply. Sir Darryl from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Sep 22 08:38:09 1997 Subject: Re: Hollow Building In a message dated 97-09-21 17:22:20 EDT, you write: Richard Hollow-fluting the "fabricated nodes". If I get it right, You plan tocombine the Stoner and the Powell systems. It just might succeed - I dothink I can visualize it. I hereby name it: The Tyree system - by whichname it should be known in the future. *Actually, no, though yours is an interesting idea; maybe the best of bothmethods. Intend to make one each way from same taper to check out thedifferences in performance, if any. Titles will not apply. Joining this list 3 weeks ago has been one of my better ideas. I too didnot think it possible to make a fishable rod, more than 8 feet long. Itried once and made a copy of Hardy's "The Halford Knockabout" - all 9feetand 6 inches weighing in at an impressive 7 and three quarters of anounce.Not having the muscles of a tennis pro I gave it up, it was simply tooheavy. Mentioning this in a conversation with one of the fellows at theHardy Museum gave the reaction: "You simply don't spend enough timefishing." *Thats it, we need to spend more time fishing! Regards,Richard *Ps - My Pontiac has 176,000 miles. Some of my rod-making epoxy hasbeenused in its repair. Not sure if urac would have been better. from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Sep 22 08:43:26 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id JAA09262 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Rod sets I've built 6 rods now and #2 and #3 took small sets, just as youdescribed. Mine would even take a set if I got hung on the bottom whilenymphing and tried to pull free and I was able to bend the rod in theother direction to correct the set. I was moisture causing the problem.I too use a tung oil finish. The next rods I've built have been flamedand heat treated at about 250 for 20 minutes. None of my rods take setsnow, no matter how much I bend them. I spoke with Wayne aboutcorrecting this problem on the problem rods and he suggested that I heattreat the finished rod at 100 degrees for about 7 days. He said thiswould remove any moisture in the cane. Since the "discovery" of myproblem the flaming AND heat treating appears to have solved my problem. Brian -----Original Message-----From: JHecht9234@aol.com [SMTP:JHecht9234@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, September 21, 1997 4:45 PM Subject: Rod sets I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticed whatmay bea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips wasslightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the otherdirection,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near thebreakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or soseconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight but noticeable"memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way.Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dipping setup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do with thefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section stripthat hadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showed memoryaswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is aproblem withthe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal property ofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I would appreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it,andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is thiswhat isreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory? Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been able totestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. signs (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". from MCALWILL@FS.isu.edu Mon Sep 22 09:58:06 1997 SMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23190 for ; Mon, Mon, 22 Sep 97 9:03:05 -0600 0600 Subject: Re: how too unsubscribe Can anyone tell me how to ubsubscribe? Will McAleese: mcalwill@fs.isu.edu from bokstrom@axionet.com Mon Sep 22 10:52:47 1997 Subject: Splitting To the fellow who posted the suggestion about using a putty knife insplitting -- please contact me direct. John Bokstrom bokstrom@axionet.com from bokstrom@axionet.com Mon Sep 22 10:52:51 1997 Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber ----------From: Don Andersen Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomberDate: Saturday, September 20, 1997 1:50 PM At 10:51 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote:Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyreeDon writes:Am attempting to "kill" a cane rod by fishing/abusing it to death.Ferrulesare about worn out and require waxing several times a summer - rod wasrolled once and refinished twice. The second time I "globbed" the finishonto get me by till this winter. About 4500 hrs. and counting. Mo otherfailures - Ralph Moon mentioned it'll likely outlast me. Suspect he'sright. I don't use sinking lines on it but use it like any other rod -heavy nymphing included. It's my most used rod - fish it all winter toowhen the weather is above 35F. Is it getting soft - hard to tell. Thebreakdown, if happening, is slight. Unfortunately, I didn't do some testspriorto the attempt to kill it. Would have been useful to have a benchmark andmeasure the differences, if any, throughout the years.As far as cane - I don't think they are all that tender. After all, theylikely have caught larger & more freshwater fish in the past than all theplastic ones combined. regards, Don Don, old buddy, you're misleading the troops. I know you "use" your rodsbut I've never seen you abuse one. What no one has mentioned is that not all rods are created equal. You'reaware that many rods are poorly designed with weak areas, jumps at theferrules and so forth which may lead to failure or fatigue but the rod yourefer to is a damn good design (your own) where each part does its shareofthe work and there are no weak spots. One reason why I built three ofthem.And about those queries on non-computer designed rods -- I'll soon berevealing my completely new design method based on a modified Ouijaboardwaxed with carnauba. Stay tuned.John from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 22 11:49:29 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16419 for Subject: Re: how too unsubscribe MCALWILL@FS.isu.edu wrote: Can anyone tell me how to ubsubscribe? Will McAleese: mcalwill@fs.isu.eduGo here:LISTPROC@mail.wustl.edu type unsubscribe followed by your name in the message body-- Martin Jensen from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Sep 22 12:51:25 1997 Subject: Re: how too unsubscribe MCALWILL@FS.isu.edu wrote: Can anyone tell me how to ubsubscribe? Will McAleese: mcalwill@fs.isu.edu Will e-mail me at rmoon@ida.netRalph from s.wang@cummins.com Mon Sep 22 13:26:35 1997 13:25:22 -0500 smap (3.2) (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/04Mar96-1128AM) 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: how too unsubscribe MCALWILL@FS.isu.edu wrote: Can anyone tell me how to ubsubscribe? Will McAleese: mcalwill@fs.isu.edue-mail to listproc@wugate.wustl.edu. In the mail, just say "signoffRODMAKERS" or "unsubscribe RODMAKERS".-- Simon T. C. Wang s.wang@cummins.comSoftware Engineer Cummins Engine Company, Inc. http://www.cummins.com4080 West Jonathan Moore PikeCMC-7003, WestHill PlazaColumbus, IN 47201 Tel: (812)377-7632Fax: (812)377-1110 from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Sep 22 13:49:54 1997 Subject: Re: Bark! In a message dated 97-09-22 08:52:26 EDT, you write: At 09:35 PM 9/21/97 -0400, you wrote:I was wondering if anyone could add to a discussion on final planingwiththe bark on or off. Just interested in what people have to say. I like to take a couple passes on the enamel with a scraperbefore the final dimensions. It seems to sit in the planingform better if it is flattened a little bit. I don't take the enamelall the way off, but I leave a little bit of a "haze" of enameluntil the final sanding of the blank. Darryl Hayashida from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 22 15:50:45 1997 (205.236.249.218) Subject: Re: Rod sets JHecht9234@aol.com wrote: I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticed whatmay bea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips wasslightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the otherdirection,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near thebreakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or soseconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight but noticeable "memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way.Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dipping setup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do with thefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section stripthat hadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showed memoryaswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is aproblem withthe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal property ofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I would appreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it,andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is thiswhat isreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory? Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been able totestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. signs (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". J,I guess you used the heat treatment proccess as per Garrisons book ?Terry Ackland from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 22 16:03:45 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,22 Sep 1997 17:03:36 EDT Subject: Binder the same specs as Garrisons? It looks as if the one pulley is not offcenter as Chris spoke about. The dimensions just look tiny that's all. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 22 16:05:36 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,22 Sep 1997 17:05:23 EDT Subject: Forms? Does anyone know how to get in contact with the man who makes forms inPenn? I believe his last name starts with a B? You can mail me directlyso we don't waste bandwidth. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 22 16:11:00 1997 (205.236.249.218) Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking Don Andersen wrote: At 18:53 20/09/97 -0400, you wrote:Hi,this list seems to follow computer generated tapers based onGarrison'smath.Is there anyone that just that designs the old fashioned way likemyself?Terry Ackland Terry, Well, I don't use a computer generated taper - just whittle out a rodwitha pocket knife and a wooden ruler. Is that the old fashoined way? Don Don,I have a rodbuilding book written by a guy called Barnes, and hesuggests using a hunting knife.His rods look ok to me, so dont knock it. Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 22 16:51:39 1997 (205.236.249.84) Subject: Coming out Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer rod designing from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list of course! Those guys who design without computers, come out of the closet and becounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 22 17:00:24 1997 (205.236.249.84) Subject: Re: Rod sets Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I've built 6 rods now and #2 and #3 took small sets, just as youdescribed. Mine would even take a set if I got hung on the bottomwhilenymphing and tried to pull free and I was able to bend the rod in theother direction to correct the set. I was moisture causing theproblem.I too use a tung oil finish. The next rods I've built have beenflamedand heat treated at about 250 for 20 minutes. None of my rods takesetsnow, no matter how much I bend them. I spoke with Wayne aboutcorrecting this problem on the problem rods and he suggested that Iheattreat the finished rod at 100 degrees for about 7 days. He said thiswould remove any moisture in the cane. Since the "discovery" of myproblem the flaming AND heat treating appears to have solved myproblem. Brian -----Original Message-----From: JHecht9234@aol.com [SMTP:JHecht9234@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, September 21, 1997 4:45 PM Subject: Rod sets I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticedwhatmay bea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips wasslightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the otherdirection,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near thebreakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or soseconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight butnoticeable"memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way. Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dippingsetup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do with thefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section stripthat hadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showedmemoryaswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is aproblem withthe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal propertyofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I wouldappreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it, andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is thiswhat isreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory?Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been abletotestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. signs (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". Try to steer away from Tung oil, it has no moisture resistance at all.In fact the actual process of polymerizing attracts moisture.Terry from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Sep 22 17:05:53 1997 with ESMTP id RAA26880 for ; Mon, 22 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id BJWFARAF; Mon,22 Sep 1997 17:05:17 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: Lathe Recommendation (2) (Carba-Tec) Jerry Foster and I both have this one and it has worked well for both of us.Its a best buy for turning ferrules stations and cork handles--theessentials Don D. ------------------Original text I've been looking at the Woodcraft catalog and they have a CARBA-TECmine- lathe with a 3/8" bore through and 13" between centers. Would thisbesuitable? Does anyone have any experience with this product? Thanks. Mark Cole from mruhe@iea.com Mon Sep 22 17:14:45 1997 Subject: Re: Coming out Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer roddesigning from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list ofcourse! Those guys who design without computers, come out of thecloset and becounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry Here Here Terry, Im Sure Computers have there place,but I dont believe rod design is one.I may be mistaken but I think someone allready inventedthe Wheel. Mark Ruhe from brookside.rod@juno.com Mon Sep 22 19:23:22 1997 20:22:21 EDT Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:53:48 -0400 Terence Ackland writes:Hi,this list seems to follow computer generated tapers based on Garrison'smath.Is there anyone that just that designs the old fashioned way likemyself?Terry Ackland Terry: YES! I've never been able to cast very far with a computer. Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: http://home.onestop.net/brookside from roberton@worldnet.att.net Mon Sep 22 21:03:20 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA14950 +0000 Subject: Unsubscribe =_NextPart_000_01BCC7A3.4257D3A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7A3.4257D3A0 Please unsubscribe me. Thank you.------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC7A3.4257D3A0 Please unsubscribe me. Thank =you. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC7A3.4257D3A0-- from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 22 22:38:29 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA12323 for Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Brett Roberton wrote: Please unsubscribe me. Thank you.go to the rodmakers web site. Info on how to leave is there.-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Mon Sep 22 22:57:37 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13038 for Subject: Re: Coming out Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer rod designing from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list of course! Those guys who design without computers, come out of the closet and becounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry Terry, I can see you now. Sitting back in your chair chuckling at the"hornets nest" you have stirred up. Anybody who builds a rod uses a computer. It is just a matter of thetype and degree of sophistication, of the computer. I mean an addingmachine is a computer.So if someone did all the math of Garrison in longhand to build a rodthat would be better than a computer? I don't think you really believethat. The rods I have built have all been from existing tapers with somemodification (not always)after looking at a graph representation. I havenot used a computer to "design rods" simply because I don't know how to.But I bet it would be a lot easier to use the computer than to followall of the calculations of Garrison. -- Martin Jensen from Canerods@aol.com Mon Sep 22 23:02:22 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets In a message dated 97-09-22 18:04:52 EDT, you write: I've built 6 rods now and #2 and #3 took small sets, just as youdescribed. Mine would even take a set if I got hung on the bottomwhilenymphing and tried to pull free and I was able to bend the rod in theother direction to correct the set. I was moisture causing theproblem.I too use a tung oil finish. The next rods I've built have beenflamedand heat treated at about 250 for 20 minutes. None of my rods takesetsnow, no matter how much I bend them. I spoke with Wayne aboutcorrecting this problem on the problem rods and he suggested that Iheattreat the finished rod at 100 degrees for about 7 days. He said thiswould remove any moisture in the cane. Since the "discovery" of myproblem the flaming AND heat treating appears to have solved myproblem. While waiting in the hospital for my wife to come out of surgery (she'sdoingfine) I was reading Michael Sinclair's Heddon rod book. Some quotes fromit(pages 82-85): "A Heddon memo dated February 16th, 1931 stated that: The number of days required for gluing and seasoning of cane haschanged from a minimum of ten days to a minimum of three weeks. Theprocessis as follows: Seventy-five hours in oven before last sizing [beveling].Seventy-five hours in (SIC) room temperature in strings. Seventy-fivehoursin oven at ninety degrees without string. Loft seasoning after that to be atotal of at least three weeks." Plus: "The moisture content of the bamboo during the milling process had astrongeffect on final size of the milled pieces. As this was such a major concernin obtaining a precise fit of the six strips, matching was done within 2 to4hours after kiln drying." Per Sinclair's book, Heddon used only rod sections that required nostraightening for their model #50 and higher rods. This limited them toabout3% of their output! Don Burns from Bopep@aol.com Mon Sep 22 23:43:24 1997 Subject: Re: Lathe Recommendation (2) (Carba-Tec) I've been using a Carba-Tec for about three years going and it's done okay the butt), Ferrule stations and reelseat inserts. My onlyproblems were the roughness of the tailstock adjustment and the fact thattheheadand tail don't line up really well which is only a minor bitch for mycurrentneeds. I just got my Sherline catalog today and plan to upgrade pretty soonand do reelseat hardware etc.I'd give the Carba a B+ for a great value$$. Rob Hoffhines P.S. Greetings and salutations to all and especially those I met atGrayrock!! from Bopep@aol.com Tue Sep 23 00:01:27 1997 Subject: Re: Coming out Now, Now guys, I hope none of you number-crunchers aren't usingcalculators! from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Sep 23 07:28:47 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA03839; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:28:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Binder Jon You need not to worry about "specs" all distances are relative in abinder.Keeping the drive train in the same plane is important. Last advice - bewareof drawings done by a draftsman that lines things up neatly - move thepulleyto the right and you will have no problem. Remember I had a single pulleybinder with me at Roscoe - it works great. Chris Jon Lintvet wrote: the same specs as Garrisons? It looks as if the one pulley is not offcenter as Chris spoke about. The dimensions just look tiny that's all. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 23 09:06:56 1997 (205.236.248.94) Subject: Re: Coming out Martin Jensen wrote: Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer rod designing from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list of course! Those guys who design without computers, come out of the closet andbecounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry Terry, I can see you now. Sitting back in your chair chuckling at the"hornets nest" you have stirred up.Anybody who builds a rod uses a computer. It is just a matter of thetype and degree of sophistication, of the computer. I mean an addingmachine is a computer.So if someone did all the math of Garrison in longhand to build a rodthat would be better than a computer? I don't think you reallybelievethat. The rods I have built have all been from existing tapers withsomemodification (not always)after looking at a graph representation. Ihavenot used a computer to "design rods" simply because I don't know howto.But I bet it would be a lot easier to use the computer than to followall of the calculations of Garrison.--Martin Jensen Martin,when I got a copy of Garrisons book I just wanted to build a rod. Idecided to forego the math and put a rod together using the taperssupplied and go back to the math later. I built several of the Garrison taper rods and found them not to myliking but continued to build them because I lacked the confidence toexperiment and I left the math alone because I did not feel it wouldwork for me. When I met Len Codella and we discussed the possibility of him stockingmy rods he suggested that I came up with some better tapers as he feltGarrison tapers are difficult for the average angler. I wanted to appealto the average angler. I went away and produced tapers that suited me. Garrison tapers I feltwere a little weak in the lower 1/3, I built them up and added a swell.Nothing scientific but it worked first time. Len mentioned to me earlier this year that he has not had one of my rodsreturned because the buyer did not like the action and this is uniqueamong all the builders he deals with.I am not blowing my own trumpet here, I am just trying to indicate thatyou do not have to be an Einstien to build rodsTerry from STEVEF@inetone.net Tue Sep 23 09:28:59 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:31:45 -0400 (206.105.173.49::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 23 Sep1997 10:31:41 -0400 Subject: Newbie questons? I am planning to build a rod-just read Garrison's book-and numerous web sites.Couple of questions to elicit the wisdom of the list:(1). What is best-a depth micrometer or a dial indicator with a depth base? Does anyone use depth base attachments for calipers instead? (2)Is a binding machine necessary for a first rod? Does anyone hand bind on a regular basis? (3)Does everyone stagger nodes as indicated by Garrison and thus end up splicing? Thanks again for the wisdom of the list. Steve from rclarke@eou.edu Tue Sep 23 09:34:42 1997 Subject: Re: Coming out Terry, this is very encouraging for non-Einsteins like myself. I wouldlike to build some rods from existing tapers, and if that all works, startplaying around with the numbers later. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Terence Ackland Subject: Re: Coming outDate: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 7:06 AM Martin Jensen wrote: Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer rod designing from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list of course! Those guys who design without computers, come out of the closetandbecounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry Terry, I can see you now. Sitting back in your chair chuckling at the"hornets nest" you have stirred up.Anybody who builds a rod uses a computer. It is just a matter of thetype and degree of sophistication, of the computer. I mean an addingmachine is a computer.So if someone did all the math of Garrison in longhand to build a rodthat would be better than a computer? I don't think you reallybelievethat. The rods I have built have all been from existing tapers withsomemodification (not always)after looking at a graph representation. Ihavenot used a computer to "design rods" simply because I don't know howto.But I bet it would be a lot easier to use the computer than to followall of the calculations of Garrison.--Martin Jensen Martin,when I got a copy of Garrisons book I just wanted to build a rod. Idecided to forego the math and put a rod together using the taperssupplied and go back to the math later. I built several of the Garrison taper rods and found them not to myliking but continued to build them because I lacked the confidence toexperiment and I left the math alone because I did not feel it wouldwork for me. When I met Len Codella and we discussed the possibility of him stockingmy rods he suggested that I came up with some better tapers as he feltGarrison tapers are difficult for the average angler. I wanted to appealto the average angler. I went away and produced tapers that suited me. Garrison tapers I feltwere a little weak in the lower 1/3, I built them up and added a swell.Nothing scientific but it worked first time. Len mentioned to me earlier this year that he has not had one of my rodsreturned because the buyer did not like the action and this is uniqueamong all the builders he deals with.I am not blowing my own trumpet here, I am just trying to indicate thatyou do not have to be an Einstien to build rodsTerry from rfairfie@cisco.com Tue Sep 23 09:44:21 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA02532 for; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:43:47 - 0700 Subject: Re: Newbie questons? Steve, I'm pretty new to this hobby, too. I do not have a binder, and do it workwell I use the 2-2-2 staggaring method, and don't spice. I use an inexpensive dial indicator mounted in a piece of wood as adepth gauge. works fine. Need to make sure you have a 60 degree tip,though.I have a hunch that using a caliper as a depth gauge would be tough. Good luck with your new hobby! Roger I am planning to build a rod-just read Garrison's book-and numerous websites.Couple of questions to elicit the wisdom of the list:(1). What is best-a depth micrometer or a dial indicator with a depthbase? Does anyone use depth base attachments for calipers instead? (2)Is a binding machine necessary for a first rod? Does anyone hand bindon a regular basis? (3)Does everyone stagger nodes as indicated by Garrison and thus end upsplicing? Thanks again for the wisdom of the list. Steve from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Sep 23 10:06:36 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id LAA12689 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Newbie questions? I hand wrap all of my rods. I use a G-2 epoxy which is rather sticky(not slippery like resorcinol and urac) and the instructions recommendthat you not use any binding material. I just drop the sewing thread onthe ground and put my foot on it to create tension and start wrapping. I have played around with all types of node spacing but have stayedwith 2-2- 2 and 3-3 and haven't noticed a difference in the rod action atall. The big difference is that you save cane if you use 3-3 (if youever decide to make splices). I've had fast and slow 3-3 rods and thesame for 2-2-2. I've made splices for one-piece rods with the extrapieces. I also have a cheap dial indicator but mounted mine in a block of steelthat I had drilled and tapped at a metal fabricator. I wasn't able todrill a straight hole in the wood and didn't have access to a drillpress. Brian I am planning to build a rod-just read Garrison's book-and numerouswebsites.Couple of questions to elicit the wisdom of the list:(1). What is best-a depth micrometer or a dial indicator with a depthbase? Does anyone use depth base attachments for calipers instead? (2)Is a binding machine necessary for a first rod? Does anyone handbindon a regular basis? (3)Does everyone stagger nodes as indicated by Garrison and thus endupsplicing? Thanks again for the wisdom of the list. Steve from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Sep 23 10:12:45 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:12:39 EDT Subject: Re: Newbie questons? On 23 Sep 97 at 10:26, Steve Ferris wrote: I am planning to build a rod-just read Garrison's book-and numerous web sites. Congradulations....get started. Couple of questions to elicit the wisdom of the list:(1). What is best-a depth micrometer or a dial indicator with a depth base? Does anyone use depth base attachments for calipers instead? In my experience you do not need to buy the best money can buy. I would have loved a digital Starret, but I spent 55. A step up from the bottom of the line metal dial caliper. (2)Is a binding machine necessary for a first rod? Does anyone hand bind on a regular basis? Absolutely not. However, keep in mind if you are wrapping by hand short sections are easier to keep straight. (3)Does everyone stagger nodes as indicated by Garrison and thus end up splicing? Thanks again for the wisdom of the list. Steve Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Sep 23 10:36:14 1997 Subject: Re: Wayne C Hinge, thanks Sir D. Robert -I am currently in Grayrock where I have been hiding with a deadcomputer this evening. This past week there were a couple of 6' 3" # 2 made - theterm'Damn Small' became a popular catch phrase. More Later Oh - I have a new hat for the ol' blad spot - "Women want me - Fishfearme" - a modest saying don't you think Form Sunny (ha ha) Downtown GrayrockWayne from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 23 10:37:32 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Coming out In a message dated 9/23/97 2:39:00 PM, you wrote: That is exactly what you should be doing, and you should also handle andcastas many rods by other builders as you can. If you are not exactly sure whatyou think a good rod is, you will not be able to design one that pleases youno matter what method you use. from jimlin@silcom.com Tue Sep 23 11:22:40 1997 Subject: unsubscribe from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Sep 23 13:02:42 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Coming out Mark ,Terry , and all closet rod makers,Considering the size of my rod shop I guess I could be considered acloset rod builder. Anyway, all this fuss about the computer boils down toeach person's preference-I use the program to compare tapers. What I findisthat the prognostications don't always jibe with the results. Anyway,it'sstill fun, especially when I sell(you'll excuse the word) one.Hank. from ebarksd@christcom.net Tue Sep 23 13:13:23 1997 Subject: Impregnated Rods for the Brine Hello,Having not yet geared up for the thrill of making rods (still lurking andlearning), I'm interested in a production rod to fish in brackish water forredfish, speckled trout, etc. What are the opinions out there on anOrvis "Shooting Star" in 8.5' or 9' for this task? Regards, Eric Barksdale from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 23 13:29:35 1997 (205.236.248.114) Subject: Re: Rod sets Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-22 18:04:52 EDT, you write: Date: 97-09-22 18:04:52 EDTFrom: hexagon@odyssee.net (Terence Ackland)Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I've built 6 rods now and #2 and #3 took small sets, just as youdescribed. Mine would even take a set if I got hung on the bottomwhilenymphing and tried to pull free and I was able to bend the rod intheother direction to correct the set. I was moisture causing theproblem.I too use a tung oil finish. The next rods I've built have beenflamedand heat treated at about 250 for 20 minutes. None of my rods take setsnow, no matter how much I bend them. I spoke with Wayne aboutcorrecting this problem on the problem rods and he suggested that I heattreat the finished rod at 100 degrees for about 7 days. He saidthiswould remove any moisture in the cane. Since the "discovery" of my problem the flaming AND heat treating appears to have solved myproblem. While waiting in the hospital for my wife to come out of surgery(she's doingfine) I was reading Michael Sinclair's Heddon rod book. Some quotes from it(pages 82-85): "A Heddon memo dated February 16th, 1931 stated that: The number of days required for gluing and seasoning of cane has changed from a minimum of ten days to a minimum of three weeks. Theprocessis as follows: Seventy-five hours in oven before last sizing[beveling].Seventy-five hours in (SIC) room temperature in strings. Seventy-fivehoursin oven at ninety degrees without string. Loft seasoning after that tobe atotal of at least three weeks." Plus: "The moisture content of the bamboo during the milling process had astrongeffect on final size of the milled pieces. As this was such a majorconcernin obtaining a precise fit of the six strips, matching was done within2 to 4hours after kiln drying." Per Sinclair's book, Heddon used only rod sections that required nostraightening for their model #50 and higher rods. This limited themto about3% of their output! Don Burns Don,this is perhaps why very few rods built by the smaller makers actuallysurvived, they were not doing it right?Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 23 13:33:01 1997 (205.236.248.114) Subject: Tung oil Hi,George Bourke,there is a great deal of difference between waterproof and moistureproof. Water will bead up on a surface that has had an application oftung oil yet offers no protection to moisture.Tung polymerizes by taking oxygen from the air and if this air issaturated with moisture this will find its way into the cane or wood. Tung may be ok for gunstocks and bowls etc. but flyrods are dynamicobjects and moisture content greatly affect the action and straightnessof a cane rod. According to tests carried out by the Forest Products Lab on tung oilapplied to a piece of Ponderosa pine . The wood was given 3 coats oftung and its moisture affectiveness fell from 52 on the first day to 6on the seveth day 0 on the 14th day. 100 was complete moisture proof.As you can see they do not rate it and I can tell you from experience itis next to useless. Remember too, Bamboo is far more dense than pineand I doubt that any tung soaks in at all. I have spent a great deal of time researching adhesives, finishes andheat treatment because I feel this is what makes a rod besides taper.Terry from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 23 13:37:57 1997 with ESMTP id NAA27800 for ; Tue, 23 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id AQSMBWAK; Tue,23 Sep 1997 13:37:22 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: lettering pens Does anyone have a favorite lettering pen they use for inking the shaftwithname, line#, etc? I used a Penstix brand .007 recently. It said inda ink and it looked great atfirst, but after a few trips out into the sun with the new rod it was fadedalmost to nothing. Don D. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Sep 23 14:37:51 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: More newbie questions Hi List, I introduced myself a couple of weeks ago, and am finally ready toactually start the process of building my first bamboo rod. I ordered 3culms of bamboo from Sui River Corporation, and two of the three don'tlook half-bad for $5 each. One is rather well water marked and hasseveral splits, but I really like the looks of two out of three.Before I actually start splitting and planing sticks, I need to ask afew questions. First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rod tobuild. Later, I'll get into designing my own. Most of my fishing isdone in Arkansas tailwaters, and is of necessity subsurface with astrike indicator. There's really not all that much dry fly fishing tobe done near home. I usually fish a plastic 9' 4 weight S**e. I usedto have a Leonard 50DF (8ft. 5-wt.) and it was extremely efficient atthis kind of fishing. I read on this list great things about Wayne's 7'2 piece 4 weight, and the "Cattanach hinge." I especially like thethings I hear about its roll-casting ability. I'm considering a 7'6" 3piece 4 weight; particularly Wayne's taper in his book. Is the "hinge"included in all your tapers, Wayne? If not, could one of you explain tome how to build that "hinge" into tapers published in archives, books,etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm do thestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. I really like shorter sections for their ease intransporting. Also, my church has a large convection oven I can use forheat treating strips up to 36.5" long. That makes the idea of threepiece rods seem awfully convenient. Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms, noteachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actually readmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? Is allthis treatment necessary? Would you offer some cookbook recipes for mycontemplated 7'6" 3 piece? Finally, forgive my wordiness. And thanks for your help, in advance. I stand before a congregation and speak for a living. No, I don't getpaid by the word! I just have lots of questions. There is a world ofgood in a plethora of information. Wisdom is the ability to sort goodinformation out of all the rest. from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Sep 23 15:10:23 1997 Subject: Re: Newbie questons? In a message dated 97-09-23 10:32:33 EDT, you write: (1). What is best-a depth micrometer or a dial indicator with a depth base? Does anyone use depth base attachments for calipers instead? The problem with this is getting the 60 degree angle for the depthmeasuring part of the calipers. (2)Is a binding machine necessary for a first rod? Does anyone hand bind on a regular basis? I used to. My thumbs a nd fingers cramped up so I bit the bullet andmade a binding machine. (3)Does everyone stagger nodes as indicated by Garrison and thus end up splicing? Garrison had to splice because he used an 8 ft. culm. Most of the culmsused today are 12 ft. Even cut in half as they have to be because UPShas a maximum of 6 ft. for a package, that's 6 ft. long strips for eachsection. Plenty enough not to have to splice. Unless you are makingan 11 ft. or longer two piece rod. Darryl Hayashida from bjcoch@arkansas.net Tue Sep 23 15:24:08 1997 mail.anc.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id UAA09520 for; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:24:03 GMT Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber Reed F. Curry wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote:Betcha nobody ever wears out aproperly made bamboo rod glued up with a modern adhesive.RTyree Richard,I would agree with you, except that I would not use the provisoaboutmodern adhesives.However, I sometimes wonder whether the rods I use, some ofwhich areapproaching the century mark, might have had a different feel when firstbuilt. A number of writers mention "wearing out" cane rods (throughoverlining) in just two years of steady fishing(this would be the 200fishing days per year that the rest of us only dream of).What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,ReedI have used a 1932 montague for the past 33 years. It is a 6 wt. and Ihave caught every thing from bream to salmon with it. I find nodifference in the feel of a cast comparing my memory of when mygrandfather gave it to me to now. I have a better reel and a far betterline on it now but the casting action seem to have remained constant. Ithas been refinished once and I have had to re-ferrule it once I am onthe third set of guides due to wearing them out. IMHO I will be able togive this rod to my daughters child some day and it will still be a goodrod. Bryant C. from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Sep 23 15:28:55 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id QAA01333 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: More newbie questions I built Wayne's 2nd 7 1/2 5 weight that's in his book as my first rod.I believe that would be a perfect rod for your type of fishing. I'vealso built his 1st 5 weight in a 3 piece. It's a little slower, butthis may be due to the extra weight of the ferrules and the taper. Ibelieve the hinge you refer to is built into Wayne's tapers. This isjust an area of the taper where there's more of a change from station tostation causing a change in energy. I flame my rods until the enamel flakes off. You'll swear that the caneis ruined! At first, I did no other heat treatment until I had somemoisture that causes some sets in the tips. Now, I flame and heat treatin a makeshift oven. If I had access to a larger oven I'd be set. My first rod was a 2 piece from a culm with growers marks that left thebutt section unusable. I just used the top section for both the tip andbutt. It didn't seem to make a difference although I'm sure people mayargue that. The mid-section on my 3 piece, I believe, came from the topof the butt section. I think you can take it from the bottom of the tipor the top of the butt being that you won't use the whole length of theculm because a 3 piece has much shorter strips. Maybe this will help some. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd, Jr. [SMTP:fbcwin@fsbnet.com]Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 3:40 PM Subject: More newbie questions Hi List, I introduced myself a couple of weeks ago, and am finally readytoactually start the process of building my first bamboo rod. I ordered3culms of bamboo from Sui River Corporation, and two of the three don'tlook half-bad for $5 each. One is rather well water marked and hasseveral splits, but I really like the looks of two out of three.Before I actually start splitting and planing sticks, I need toask afew questions. First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rodtobuild. Later, I'll get into designing my own. Most of my fishing isdone in Arkansas tailwaters, and is of necessity subsurface with astrike indicator. There's really not all that much dry fly fishing tobe done near home. I usually fish a plastic 9' 4 weight S**e. I usedto have a Leonard 50DF (8ft. 5-wt.) and it was extremely efficient atthis kind of fishing. I read on this list great things about Wayne's7'2 piece 4 weight, and the "Cattanach hinge." I especially like thethings I hear about its roll-casting ability. I'm considering a 7'6"3piece 4 weight; particularly Wayne's taper in his book. Is the"hinge"included in all your tapers, Wayne? If not, could one of you explaintome how to build that "hinge" into tapers published in archives, books,etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm dothestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. I really like shorter sections for their ease intransporting. Also, my church has a large convection oven I can useforheat treating strips up to 36.5" long. That makes the idea of threepiece rods seem awfully convenient. Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms,not eachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actuallyreadmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? Is allthis treatment necessary? Would you offer some cookbook recipes formycontemplated 7'6" 3 piece? Finally, forgive my wordiness. And thanks for your help, inadvance. I stand before a congregation and speak for a living. No, I don't getpaid by the word! I just have lots of questions. There is a world ofgood in a plethora of information. Wisdom is the ability to sort goodinformation out of all the rest. from bjcoch@arkansas.net Tue Sep 23 15:28:58 1997 mail.anc.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id UAA10049 for; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:28:54 GMT Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I haven't had any cane rods very long and don't know about the workinglife. I do, however, wonder how quickly you can wear out a rod byoverlining or heavy double hauling. These can't be good for bamboo. Brian I personaly never over line any rod. It messes with the action and youcould add a serious casting warp to the tip section. Besides since webuild rods why not just build a rod for every line weight you want touse? It is great practice and then you won't have to worry about whatwill happen to an over lined rod. Nespa? from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 23 15:48:02 1997 (205.236.249.184) Subject: Re: Tung oil GEORGE_BOURKE@HP-SantaClara-om2.om.hp.com wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Hi Terry, Thanks for the info. Now, I have some more questions (if youdon'tmind). 1) What is the difference between "waterproof" and"moistureproof"?2) Who or what is "Forest Products Lab" and how can they becontacted(website, maybe??)?3) The numbers you gave from Forest Products Lab, what are they?(%of weight due to water? Volumetric expansion? Somethingentirelydifferent?) BTW-I do agree with you that adhesives, heat treatment, moisturebarrier, and ferrules most affect action after the taper itself. Thanks. George, being moisture proof is the ability to stop the the cyclic variationsin humidity. Humidity is airborn water vapour. Being water proofis......well waterproof.The FPL figures are percentages of the abilityof the finish to to stop the ingress of moisture. 100 being completemoisture proof.Moisture proofness is the important one for us and the most difficult toobtain.try http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/Terry from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Sep 23 15:53:21 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id QAA21267 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber It seems that every rod I've built, except for one, cast better with oneheavier line than the taper called for. Now, I don' t know if this isjust what I like in a rod or if I'm planing wrong. My measurements arewithin a few .001 ths at every station. Who knows, maybe I cast betterwith an overlined rod? Brian -----Original Message-----From: bryant j coochran [SMTP:bjcoch@arkansas.net]Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - was Stealth bomber Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I haven't had any cane rods very long and don't know about theworkinglife. I do, however, wonder how quickly you can wear out a rod byoverlining or heavy double hauling. These can't be good for bamboo. Brian I personaly never over line any rod. It messes with the action and youcould add a serious casting warp to the tip section. Besides since webuild rods why not just build a rod for every line weight you want touse? It is great practice and then you won't have to worry about whatwill happen to an over lined rod. Nespa? from rfairfie@cisco.com Tue Sep 23 16:01:26 1997 OAA10950 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:00:53 - 0700 Subject: Re: More newbie questions Harry, the first rod that I made was Wayne's 7 1/2 foot 4 wt in twopieces. Itroll casts like a dream. I personally prefer two piece rods 'cause therearefewer strips to deal with, and I don't have a lathe for fitting ferrules, so there is one less chance of building a rod with a kink at the ferrule! I flame culms for appearance, cook the inside of the culms like Darryldoes witha heat gun, and also heat treat. I'm getting the feeling that as long as youdon't carbonize the bamboo, more heat is better. If you want a cookbook recipe, the one in Wayne's book is a good startingpoint. Good luck! Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tue Sep 23 12:44:28 1997Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:40:14 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Harry Boyd, Jr." Subject: More newbie questionsMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent-Length: 2806 Hi List, I introduced myself a couple of weeks ago, and am finally ready toactually start the process of building my first bamboo rod. I ordered 3culms of bamboo from Sui River Corporation, and two of the three don'tlook half-bad for $5 each. One is rather well water marked and hasseveral splits, but I really like the looks of two out of three.Before I actually start splitting and planing sticks, I need to ask afew questions. First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rodtobuild. Later, I'll get into designing my own. Most of my fishing isdone in Arkansas tailwaters, and is of necessity subsurface with astrike indicator. There's really not all that much dry fly fishing tobe done near home. I usually fish a plastic 9' 4 weight S**e. I usedto have a Leonard 50DF (8ft. 5-wt.) and it was extremely efficient atthis kind of fishing. I read on this list great things about Wayne's 7'2 piece 4 weight, and the "Cattanach hinge." I especially like thethings I hear about its roll-casting ability. I'm considering a 7'6" 3piece 4 weight; particularly Wayne's taper in his book. Is the "hinge"included in all your tapers, Wayne? If not, could one of you explain tome how to build that "hinge" into tapers published in archives, books,etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm do thestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. I really like shorter sections for their ease intransporting. Also, my church has a large convection oven I can use forheat treating strips up to 36.5" long. That makes the idea of threepiece rods seem awfully convenient. Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms, noteachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actually readmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? Is allthis treatment necessary? Would you offer some cookbook recipes formycontemplated 7'6" 3 piece? Finally, forgive my wordiness. And thanks for your help, in advance. I stand before a congregation and speak for a living. No, I don't getpaid by the word! I just have lots of questions. There is a world ofgood in a plethora of information. Wisdom is the ability to sort goodinformation out of all the rest. from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 23 16:02:07 1997 with ESMTP id QAA29229 for ; Tue, 23 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id WMVBAHBM; Tue,23 Sep 1997 16:01:32 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: More newbie questions Harry, I've never heard anyone claim that they can build a good rod without heattreating. The problem is that freshly split srips are still FULL of moisturewhich necesitates moisture removal through application of heat whichyieldsevaporation. What may be confusing you is that some guys claim flamingthehalf-culms before spitting is all the heat treatment required. Most guyswoulddisagree with this though. Generally speaking there are two "camps." Themoderncamp which says heat treat QUICKLY at HIGH TEMPERATURE (7-10 minutesat 350-375F) and what I'll call the Walton Powell camp which says use a LOWER tempforLONGER DURATION (200-250 for up to an hour). I'll let others kick off thediscussion of pros and cons of these two scenarios. Mr. Ackland has somegoodadvice on this as he has done much research on both heat treating andfinishes.He claims--and I tend to sgree with him--that slight variations in theseprocesses can result in a rod that is far better or worse than one wouldexpect. It certainly is a good topic for you to want to examine and I'm surethe list will gladly share their opinions! Good LuckDon D. ------------------Original text Hi List, I introduced myself a couple of weeks ago, and am finally ready toactually start the process of building my first bamboo rod. I ordered 3culms of bamboo from Sui River Corporation, and two of the three don'tlook half-bad for $5 each. One is rather well water marked and hasseveral splits, but I really like the looks of two out of three.Before I actually start splitting and planing sticks, I need to ask afew questions. First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rod tobuild. Later, I'll get into designing my own. Most of my fishing isdone in Arkansas tailwaters, and is of necessity subsurface with astrike indicator. There's really not all that much dry fly fishing tobe done near home. I usually fish a plastic 9' 4 weight S**e. I usedto have a Leonard 50DF (8ft. 5-wt.) and it was extremely efficient atthis kind of fishing. I read on this list great things about Wayne's 7'2 piece 4 weight, and the "Cattanach hinge." I especially like thethings I hear about its roll-casting ability. I'm considering a 7'6" 3piece 4 weight; particularly Wayne's taper in his book. Is the "hinge"included in all your tapers, Wayne? If not, could one of you explain tome how to build that "hinge" into tapers published in archives, books,etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm do thestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. I really like shorter sections for their ease intransporting. Also, my church has a large convection oven I can use forheat treating strips up to 36.5" long. That makes the idea of threepiece rods seem awfully convenient. Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms, noteachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actually readmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? Is allthis treatment necessary? Would you offer some cookbook recipes for mycontemplated 7'6" 3 piece? Finally, forgive my wordiness. And thanks for your help, in advance. I stand before a congregation and speak for a living. No, I don't getpaid by the word! I just have lots of questions. There is a world ofgood in a plethora of information. Wisdom is the ability to sort goodinformation out of all the rest. from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 23 16:32:12 1997 with ESMTP id QAA06077 for ; Tue, 23 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id WRVGBLBT; Tue,23 Sep 1997 16:31:37 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Terry A. Mr. Ackland, Could you kindly share your heat treating regimen with the list? Thanks,Don D. from Crossview1@aol.com Tue Sep 23 17:13:12 1997 Subject: Re: Tung oil Mr. Ackland wrote: I have spent a great deal of time researching adhesives, finishes andheat treatment because I feel this is what makes a rod besides taper.Terry I found your post very interesting. Could you please help out a beginner?How long do you heat treat your mid-weight trout rods, pre- and post-finalplaning and gluing? And, which finishes do you use most frequently? Lastly,although this probably relates to the question re finishes, what can a rodbuilder do to keep moisture out of a rod over the long-term? Thank you. Bill. from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 23 17:57:57 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15463 for Subject: Re: Coming out Terence Ackland wrote: Martin Jensen wrote: Terence Ackland wrote: Hi,got some replies to my question about non-computer rod designing from guys owning up to this perversion. All off list of course! Those guys who design without computers, come out of the closetandbecounted there are a lot worse people about than us.Terry Terry, I can see you now. Sitting back in your chair chuckling at the"hornets nest" you have stirred up.Anybody who builds a rod uses a computer. It is just a matter of thetype and degree of sophistication, of the computer. I mean an addingmachine is a computer.So if someone did all the math of Garrison in longhand to build a rodthat would be better than a computer? I don't think you reallybelievethat. The rods I have built have all been from existing tapers withsomemodification (not always)after looking at a graph representation. Ihavenot used a computer to "design rods" simply because I don't know howto.But I bet it would be a lot easier to use the computer than to followall of the calculations of Garrison.--Martin Jensen Martin,when I got a copy of Garrisons book I just wanted to build a rod. Idecided to forego the math and put a rod together using the taperssupplied and go back to the math later. I built several of the Garrison taper rods and found them not to myliking but continued to build them because I lacked the confidence toexperiment and I left the math alone because I did not feel it wouldwork for me. When I met Len Codella and we discussed the possibility of him stockingmy rods he suggested that I came up with some better tapers as he feltGarrison tapers are difficult for the average angler. I wanted to appealto the average angler. I went away and produced tapers that suited me. Garrison tapers I feltwere a little weak in the lower 1/3, I built them up and added a swell.Nothing scientific but it worked first time. Len mentioned to me earlier this year that he has not had one of my rodsreturned because the buyer did not like the action and this is uniqueamong all the builders he deals with.I am not blowing my own trumpet here, I am just trying to indicate thatyou do not have to be an Einstien to build rodsTerry I too have built a couple of the Garrison tapers. The 212 and the 206. Ilike fairly slow rods so these appealed to me. I really like the 206though I don't know how much of a match it is to the original tapersupplied in the book. The 212 is a bit slow I would agree. So did yougraph out the tapers and than make your own adjustments? As far asdesigning my own tapers this is as close as I have come to that. -- Martin Jensen from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Sep 23 18:28:38 1997 Subject: Newbie answers (opinions) Harry -First - I only have about a hundred posts to wade through so you mayhaverecieved answers to you question already but some were focused Rod Choice - Some diehards like myself do dry fly fish in the ark area - hours of casting a 6' 3" fly rod and a #16 caddis to imitate a sow bug isn'tthe norm for the area. There are 2 distinct 7' 6" fly rods listed in my book- hind sight shows that I should have added better discription to all thelisted tapers - we're working on a revision and will correct that - anyway- the tapers listed on page 227 - 28 are a parabolic action that aremormallyrecommended for dry fly use - they were based on the same stress curve -YesI use a computer to design fly rods - the tapers on page 229 - 30 havemorebackbone and can handle bigger bugs and sub surface - they are designedoffthe same stress curve. A possible consideration might be this - the 8' # 5(or Son of the Force) would give you more length and authority in the windORI could post the #4 that is generated by that stress curve. The action is astiffer parabolic - The Force (featured on the cover of my book) is the 8' #6 and even I can hit 115' with it.Flaming - market wise the flamed rods sell better - perhaps 5 to 3 -thenice thing about flaming is that it masks water marks and does somemoistureremoval which makes splitting easier. Perhaps you might try to see whichyouprefer - one the very end of a culm flame about six inches to the degreethatthe upper level of enamel (there are 2 levels) flakes or explodes. Thenblocksand and wet with tung oil to see the effect.Rod sections - I have made more 3 piece rods than I have 2 piece -thereis the additional cost of the second set of ferrules though - the purple rodthat I made our daughter is a 3 piece 6' 3" - however I normallyrecommendthat you start out with a 2 piece but with the availability of the oven thesaving there would outweight the cost of the extra ferrule. Oven and H/T - before using your oven test the temperature with areasonably accurate thermostat and in more than one location. personally Istill use the regiment spelled out in my book - try others time tempcombinations with sample pieces to test the effect on the bamboo - thedifference between 350 and 375 can have a great effect on the lignum3 piece construction - the butt and mid come from the lower half of a12'culm - the tips come from the upper half of a 12' culmHinge effect - the purpose of a hinge in the butt of a fly rod is toallow a pause (however so slight) to occur in the passing of energy alongtherod. This pause allows a small alount of slack to form in the line so thatthe forward loop of a roll cast can be formed. this extra time element isneeded because of the surface tension the water surface causes on theline.Now - the hinge is about 20" from the hand - if the hing is too low on therod the rollcast will cast upward - if the hinge is too hi the line will castdownward. The hinge shows on a graphed stress curve as a upward spikedblurb- remember as the f(b) value goes higher the is less computed material.Thisis only part of a lengthy explaination that I have worked up over the pastfew years - I am away from home at present and when I return I will postthecurrent thoughts concerning curves - rod speeds and such it is about 24pageslong.I hope that this answers some of the many question that you will haveas you join the adventure Best of LuckWayne from MasjC1@aol.com Tue Sep 23 19:24:49 1997 Subject: Re: Newbie questons? Steve, Like you I'm just getting started in rod building. I just recently purchaseda depth guage and base from ENCO (phone 1-800-873-3626). The guage(stocknumber 605-4080) and base (SN 610-5000) are both $11.00. I've had toorderthe 60 deg points from another source and they are currrently backordered;so I've not used it to set my form yet. The only use I've put it to, so far,is to measure the depth of cut when I grooved the sole of my plane. Mark Cole from rclarke@eou.edu Tue Sep 23 19:33:02 1997 Subject: Re: Wayne C Hinge, thanks Sir D. Wayne, I appreciate the response, sorry to pull you away from rod buildingand/or fishing. What are your thoughts on binding by hand? I have heardothers talk about it, and with my bamboo on its way soon, I am stillgathering tools. Don't know if the binder is a make or break situation. Ihave a shirt with the same saying on it. Have not had the nerve to wearit. Thanks, Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu P.S., how is the fishing in Grey Rock? A friend of mine just caught a 26inch steelhead on the Deschutes. I have been at work and not had theopportunity to hit the water lately. ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: Wayne C Hinge, thanks Sir D.Date: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 8:35 AM Robert -I am currently in Grayrock where I have been hiding with a deadcomputer tothis evening. This past week there were a couple of 6' 3" # 2 made - theterm'Damn Small' became a popular catch phrase. More Later Oh - I have a new hat for the ol' blad spot - "Women want me - Fishfearme" - a modest saying don't you think Form Sunny (ha ha) Downtown GrayrockWayne from bokstrom@axionet.com Tue Sep 23 20:25:29 1997 Subject: Re: lettering pens ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: lettering pensDate: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 1:37 PM Does anyone have a favorite lettering pen they use for inking the shaftwithname, line#, etc? I used a Penstix brand .007 recently. It said inda ink and it lookedgreat atfirst, but after a few trips out into the sun with the new rod it wasfadedalmost to nothing. Don D. from Best of TPF, page 120 Pigma size 0.1, or Dr. Pilot Drawing Pen size 0.1 John from roberton@worldnet.att.net Tue Sep 23 20:45:23 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA21249 +0000 Subject: Re: Unsubscribe =_NextPart_000_01BCC869.EBD4E2D0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC869.EBD4E2D0 Where is it? ----------From: Martin Jensen Subject: Re: UnsubscribeDate: Monday, September 22, 1997 11:38 PM Brett Roberton wrote: Please unsubscribe me. Thank you.go to the rodmakers web site. Info on how to leave is there.-- Martin Jensen------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC869.EBD4E2D0 Where is = ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC869.EBD4E2D0-- from WDHCJL@aol.com Tue Sep 23 21:07:45 1997 Subject: Re: More newbie questions I suggest that anyone with questions concerning heat treating refer toWaynesBook/video...you will notice an initial heat treatment (high temp., shortduration) and then a longer (3 hour) treatment to fully treat. Hard to arguewith a method that has been used in the construction of no telling howmanyrods (especially when you add Waynes personnal experience with those ofhisstudents). Doug Hall, Atl. from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 23 21:10:28 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22420 for Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Brett Roberton wrote: Where is it? ----------From: Martin Jensen Subject: Re: UnsubscribeDate: Monday, September 22, 1997 11:38 PM Brett Roberton wrote: Please unsubscribe me. Thank you.go to the rodmakers web site. Info on how to leave is there.--Martin Jensenhttp://HOME1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@members.cmix.com Tue Sep 23 21:31:34 1997 Subject: Re[2]: Rod sets RO>Canerods@aol.com wrote: RO>> While waiting in the hospital for my wife to come out of surgeryRO>> (she's doingRO>> fine) I was reading Michael Sinclair's Heddon rod book. Some quotesRO>> from itRO>> (pages 82-85):RO>>RO>> "A Heddon memo dated February 16th, 1931 stated that:RO>>RO>> The number of days required for gluing and seasoning of cane hasRO>>RO>> changed from a minimum of ten days to a minimum of three weeks.TheRO>> processRO>> is as follows: Seventy-five hours in oven before last sizingRO>> [beveling].RO>> Seventy-five hours in (SIC) room temperature in strings. Seventy-fiveRO>> hoursRO>> in oven at ninety degrees without string. Loft seasoning after that toRO>> be aRO>> total of at least three weeks."RO>>RO>> Plus:RO>>RO>> "The moisture content of the bamboo during the milling process had aRO>> strongRO>> effect on final size of the milled pieces. As this was such a majorRO>> concernRO>> in obtaining a precise fit of the six strips, matching was done withinRO>> 2 to 4RO>> hours after kiln drying."RO>>RO>> Per Sinclair's book, Heddon used only rod sections that required noRO>> straightening for their model #50 and higher rods. This limited themRO>> to aboutRO>> 3% of their output!RO>>RO>> Don Burns RO>Don,RO>this is perhaps why very few rods built by the smaller makersactuallyRO>survived, they were not doing it right?RO>Terry Maybe, or maybe it's because they only made a few rods? Besides, I'mnot sure if my leg is being pulled or you're being serious! But I doknow that most Heddon rods don't seem to take sets like H-I or Montaguerods normally do. Is it heat treating or what? Don Burns from gcjones@primary.net Tue Sep 23 23:28:39 1997 Subject: Heat treating oven I am just getting started in setting up my rodmaking equipment and havea question on heat treating ovens. I have access to a unit that I canconvert but the problem is it will only heat to 150 degrees. Has any onehad experience heating at this temp? If I heated for 2 1/2 times longerat 150 degrees would the results be the same as 375 for 7 min. as Waynedescribes? Also if I didn't want to flame the rods would putting theculms in the oven prior to splitting help? (The oven will hold an 8 ft.peice) If you say that it won't work I can probably rewire the unit witha different thermostat and get the 375 degrees.Also would like some input on the Milward binder versus the Garrisonstyle. Thanks in advance for your help Gary C. Jones from rhicks@d.umn.edu Tue Sep 23 23:52:39 1997 XAA21418 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:52:21 Subject: Oven Thermometer Hi all, I am just starting to build the tools necessary to construct a cane flyrod. I recently finished building a Cattanach-style oven for temperingbamboo and was wonderinghow I would check the true oven temperature. I learned from thislistservegroup that some peoplehave been using candy thermometers but I stumbled onto a relativelyinexpensive digital thermometer that some of you might be interested in. It's a thermometer/timer made by Oakton. It is powered by 1 AA batteryina housing with a good size LCD display (1.4 inches high). The displayunitcomes with a 6 inch stainless steel temperature probe attached to a 3.5foot stainless steel probe cable. The meter reads temperature (deg. F. ordeg. C), has an adjustable temperature set point that triggers an alarmwhen the set temperature is reached and there is a count down timer withanother alarm (perfect for timing the tempering process). Thetemperaturerange of the probe is 32 to 392 deg. F (0-200 deg. C), the meterresolutionis 1 deg. F, and the accuracy is +/- 3.6 deg. F. The plastic meter housing has magnets to attach it to most metalsurfaces.I think the outside of my oven gets too hot, so I am setting the meterhousing on the bench next to my oven (the display can be swiveled up anddown for viewing). The meter housing is relatively small measuring only2.7 x 3.8 x 1 inches. The meter continuously displays the actualtemperature ( from the probe), the set temperature, and count down timerinformation. I haven't used the thermometer very much so I do not have informationaboutthe lifetime of the probe, but it appears pretty durable. If you areinterested, the meter and probe can be ordered from Cole-ParmerInstrumentCo. (P.O. Box 6690, Vernon Hills, IL 60061; 800- 323-4320) for about$29.00plus shipping (about $8). The catalog number is E-90080-00. They willaccept credit cards from individuals. Randy Hicks232 Isanti St.Duluth, MN 55803 from sekarkkain@NCSBSR03OU.ntc.nokia.com Wed Sep 24 00:32:25 1997 ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:31:39 +0300 (EETDST) Windows NT(tm)) +0300 OU) Subject: RE: Heat treating oven To all. Has anyone tried baking oven made out of bricks for heat treating. I amjust finishing my new house, and I have a baking oven( i use wood to heat it up, of course). So far I have heated it up to 300 degrees celsius. Only problem I can see is that I could use it for only 3 piece rods because the depth of the oven is just about 90 cm.THE issue is, has any of you rodmakers out there tried ovens which are heated up with wood?I am not rodmaker (yet), but since the subject is so interesting, i would like to have your opinions. Seppo Karkkainen----------From: rodmakers Subject: Heat treating ovenDate: 24. September 1997 07:40 I am just getting started in setting up my rodmaking equipment and havea question on heat treating ovens. I have access to a unit that I canconvert but the problem is it will only heat to 150 degrees. Has any onehad experience heating at this temp? If I heated for 2 1/2 times longerat 150 degrees would the results be the same as 375 for 7 min. as Waynedescribes? Also if I didn't want to flame the rods would putting theculms in the oven prior to splitting help? (The oven will hold an 8 ft.peice) If you say that it won't work I can probably rewire the unit witha different thermostat and get the 375 degrees.Also would like some input on the Milward binder versus the Garrisonstyle. Thanks in advance for your help Gary C. Jones ------ Message Header Follows ------Received: from axl01it by ntcit-mmta7.ntc.nokia.com(PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9c for Windows NT(tm)) +0300 axl01it(8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA27580 for;Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:31:49 +0300 (EET DST) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:55:44 -0500 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: "Gary C. Jones" Subject: Heat treating ovenMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Sep 24 07:17:51 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA19089 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: Tuxedo Cane Does anybody have the number for Tuxedo cane? Do they have any caneavailable? Brian from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 24 07:26:40 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA04008; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:26:39 - 0400 Subject: Re: Heat treating oven Gary A low temp heat cure at 150 degrees prob will not get the desiredresults. Most agree with a need for a temp between 300 - 375 andI will let people decide the temp and period they feel is best forthem.Now for those who don't have a large treatment oven to cure longstrips - you may consider going nodeless since you can cure the culmsections after the nodes been removed in most kitchen ovens.My first rods were a 6'3" 3 piece (Tappan Specials) until I madea heat treatment oven to do long strips. Now I am back to the Tappan pain and agony of nodes! Chris Gary C. Jones wrote: I am just getting started in setting up my rodmaking equipment and havea question on heat treating ovens. I have access to a unit that I canconvert but the problem is it will only heat to 150 degrees. Has any onehad experience heating at this temp? If I heated for 2 1/2 times longerat 150 degrees would the results be the same as 375 for 7 min. as Waynedescribes? Also if I didn't want to flame the rods would putting theculms in the oven prior to splitting help? (The oven will hold an 8 ft.peice) If you say that it won't work I can probably rewire the unit witha different thermostat and get the 375 degrees.Also would like some input on the Milward binder versus the Garrisonstyle. Thanks in advance for your help Gary C. Jones from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Sep 24 07:44:23 1997 Subject: Re: Heat treating oven In a message dated 9/24/97 4:31:36 AM, you wrote: Gary - If you're not going to flame, I would leave the cane in the oven a lotlonger. Leonard used to use a 24 hour cycle at 200 degrees. The idea beingtostay below the boiling point of water and avoid damaging the bamboocells.I've never tried it, but I've seen many old Leonards with very fine tips thathave survived a lot of fishing. There may be something to it from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 08:39:36 1997 (205.236.248.66) Subject: Re: Rod sets flyfisher@members.cmix.com wrote: RO>Canerods@aol.com wrote: Maybe, or maybe it's because they only made a few rods? Besides,I'mnot sure if my leg is being pulled or you're being serious! But I doknow that most Heddon rods don't seem to take sets like H-I orMontaguerods normally do. Is it heat treating or what? Don Burns Don,If you build a rod using the the time/temp heat treatment as per thebook you end up with a rod that sets easily. I once went to a rodmakersgathering a few years ago and none of our Garrison type rods werestraight. These were all new rods. The only straight rod I saw was aused R. Summers rod!I am sure that there were processes that professional Rod companiesused that we are not aware of. Small things that made a lot ofdifference. All on this list learned from a book that was written by an amateur whoin turn learned from another amateur.I have a 1958 Field and stream and there is an article where the readeris taken on a trip around a rod shop and the author mentions no go areasthat included the milling machines and even heat treatment ovens I am positive that the answer to building a fine rod has yet to berediscovered. The computer guys can plot the perfect taper but I'll belooking elswhere.Terry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Sep 24 08:56:09 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,24 Sep 1997 09:55:57 EDT Subject: moisture ok...I do believe that moisture has an effect on the action of a rod.However none of us are dipping or finishing the rods as soon as we takethem out of the ovens or what not. In fact people building nodeless(ormaybe just me) are baking the short strips way before they are finalplaned and glued, much less dipped or what not. In that piece ofponderosa the moisture had re-entered in 14 dyas or so with a 3 ply tungoil finish. Granted the tung oil isn't much, and the ponderosa isn'tbamboo but wouldn't the same thing still apply. The moisture is going tore-enter very quickly? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Sep 24 09:36:44 1997 with ESMTP id JAA19005 for ; Wed, 24 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id AQOLBKAT; Wed,24 Sep 1997 09:36:11 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: moisture I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enter betweencookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period was aroundtwoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing to bedoublysure? Don D. ------------------Original text ok...I do believe that moisture has an effect on the action of a rod.However none of us are dipping or finishing the rods as soon as we takethem out of the ovens or what not. In fact people building nodeless(ormaybe just me) are baking the short strips way before they are finalplaned and glued, much less dipped or what not. In that piece ofponderosa the moisture had re-entered in 14 dyas or so with a 3 ply tungoil finish. Granted the tung oil isn't much, and the ponderosa isn'tbamboo but wouldn't the same thing still apply. The moisture is going tore-enter very quickly? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from flyfisher@members.cmix.com Wed Sep 24 10:24:58 1997 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Stealth bomber] and intro RO>Rod list intro:RO> USAF fighter pilot, been FF for about 16 years, have built one"plastic"RO>rod but want to attempt a cane rod when I retire from the USAF inabout 10RO>months or so. Also a FF@ member. Currently stationed at HollomanAFB nearRO>Alamogordo NM, flying F-117 and T-38. RO> Check 6, RO>Pitt M Merryman, Lt Col, USAFRO>Bandit 432 Pitt, I tried to post this before, but the ISP email system was FUBAR -I hope that wasn't you that had to punch out of the F-117 at theairshow. I hear the wind-burns hurt like hell. Don Burns PS - One of few remaining Skunk Works buildings left in Burbank is now aFry's Electronics store. (: from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Sep 24 10:30:11 1997 KAA25972 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:30:02 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id KAA28909 for ; Subject: re: moisture Rod building season must be almost here (in the Northern Hemisphere),judging by the traffic on the list. Well, since completing my first rod last spring I've been chomping at the bit to get started on another. I got some cane this summer, but I wasonce told by a old-time rod builder that cane must be seasoned AT LEAST5 years to make a decent rod. Many do not agree with this, but most experienced builders avoid building during the humid summer months (andthis summer was certainly humid in my neighborhood.) So I decided I would (1) Season (dry) the cane in the oven at relativelylow temps for an extended period; (2) Heat treat by whatever method Ichose;and (3) Keep the strips in the oven at low temps during the buildingprocess,right up to finishing, to keep out as much moisture as possible. I started step 1 about a week ago, with a culm split down the center. What I've found from weighing a test piece daily, is that at temps of 100-110F, the cane looses moisture VERY slowly (loosing about 0.5%weight a day), while at 120- 130F the moisture exits much more rapidly (about 3-4% weight loss a day). My plan at the moment is to keep at it until the test strip stops loosing weight, then turn down the heat a little and keep itthere until I'm ready. If a person lives in a humid climate, it might be wise to store finishedrods in a closed cabinet with some heat, or to put dessicant packs in the rod tubes.--- -----------------------------------------------------------------------Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enter betweencookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period was aroundtwoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing to bedoublysure? Don D. from flyfisher@members.cmix.com Wed Sep 24 10:34:18 1997 Subject: Re: Stealth bomber RO>Funny you should mention Morgans as I was thinking about them thelastRO>time the old should you make a rod quickly (production) or take yourtimeRO>(Garrison) thread began. I read of Morgan using a business consultant6-7RO>years ago. His report mentions Morgan mark and measure everythingratherRO>than using templates etc and each part is hand made. The consultantRO>advised they would be broke in a few years if they didn'tRO>mend their ways. The father was all for it, though reluctantly but theRO>son who seemed to have the controling vote was refusing to changesayingRO>to do so was to make Ford cars that looked like Morgans.RO>Kind of extreme I guess but sometimes these things matter. Is MorganRO>still in business? I don't know. RO>Tony Quote from Oct 1997 R&T magazine: Won't it be nice to be able to call up the Leonard Company and order afew space parts, like Morgan owners can do? Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 10:58:55 1997 (205.236.248.201) Subject: Re: moisture Jon Lintvet wrote: ok...I do believe that moisture has an effect on the action of a rod.However none of us are dipping or finishing the rods as soon as wetakethem out of the ovens or what not. In fact people buildingnodeless(ormaybe just me) are baking the short strips way before they are finalplaned and glued, much less dipped or what not. In that piece ofponderosa the moisture had re-entered in 14 dyas or so with a 3 plytungoil finish. Granted the tung oil isn't much, and the ponderosa isn'tbamboo but wouldn't the same thing still apply. The moisture is goingtore-enter very quickly? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 Jon,YES.Get a strip of cane and hold it up to your eye . Give it a good bendoff to one side while sighting down it you will notice that it will notreturn to its original position immediately.Now cook it and let it cool and carry out the same test, if cookedenough it should snap back.Put this same strip to one side and check every day using the abovemethod and you will find that it rapidly reverts back to its uncookedsoftness!These are my findings working in a basement in the northeast- could bedifferent if you live in another areaTerry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 11:02:38 1997 (205.236.248.201) Subject: Re: moisture Don DeLoach wrote: I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enterbetween cookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period wasaround twoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing tobe doublysure? Don D. ------------------ Don,Yes again.Terry from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Sep 24 11:41:31 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id MAA28058 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: moisture I have begun to heat treat my strips only when I have enough time tofinish the final planing. I heat treat the pre-planed strips andusually have them glued by evening (roughly 3-6 hours later). This waythe glue and binding string can reduce the amount of moisture re-entry.I would guess that most people don't have the time to finish the finalplaning after heat treatment, though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Don DeLoach [SMTP:d-deloach1@ti.com]Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 12:36 PM Subject: re: moisture I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enterbetween cookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period wasaround twoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing tobe doublysure? Don D. ------------------Original text From: Jon Lintvet , on 9/24/97 9:19 AM:ok...I do believe that moisture has an effect on the action of a rod.However none of us are dipping or finishing the rods as soon as wetakethem out of the ovens or what not. In fact people buildingnodeless(ormaybe just me) are baking the short strips way before they are finalplaned and glued, much less dipped or what not. In that piece ofponderosa the moisture had re-entered in 14 dyas or so with a 3 plytungoil finish. Granted the tung oil isn't much, and the ponderosa isn'tbamboo but wouldn't the same thing still apply. The moisture is goingtore-enter very quickly? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 24 13:33:50 1997 Subject: Re: More newbie questions In a message dated 97-09-23 15:44:34 EDT, you write: First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rodtobuild. Your first rod should be the heaviest line weight rod you think you'll everuse.Thicker splines are easier to plane, bind, straighten, etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm do thestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Heavier line weight rods, take them from the bottom half. Lighter weightrods, take them from the upper half. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. You got it! Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms, noteachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actually readmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? I flame my cane for a variety of reasons. I like the action, it seemsto make the bamboo a little springier, I like the appearance, andI know someone will say the exact opposite, but it seems like Ihave less problems with lifts and tearouts when the cane is flamed. Darryl Hayashida from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Sep 24 14:57:52 1997 with ESMTP id OAA16060 for ; Wed, 24 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id QQTGCOBP; Wed,24 Sep 1997 14:56:39 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: nymphing taper Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witha rodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What do youguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean 8footer mends so much better. Don D. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Sep 24 15:44:49 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: More newbie questions SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-23 15:44:34 EDT, you write: First, and I know I'm asking for opinions not dogmahere, would some of you make some recommendations about a first rodtobuild. Your first rod should be the heaviest line weight rod you think you'll everuse.Thicker splines are easier to plane, bind, straighten, etc. Second, if I decide on a 3-piece rod, from where on the culm do thestrips for the mid-section come? I know butt strips come from buttpieces, and tips from tips, but what about mids? I hope this questionisn't as stupid as it sounds. Heavier line weight rods, take them from the bottom half. Lighter weightrods, take them from the upper half. Third, there seems to be a preponderance of two-piece rods beingbuiltthese days. Why? Is it a combination of reasons; less strips to dealwith, fewer ferrules to buy, better performance, or a combination ofreasons. You got it! Fourth, is there a consensus of opinion about flaming (culms, noteachother!) and heat treating. Some seem to say that heat treating isunnecessary, while others imply that you must heat for months in aformula cooked up with bat wings and eye of newt. I don't actuallyreadmuch about flaming culms. Is there analytical data available? I flame my cane for a variety of reasons. I like the action, it seemsto make the bamboo a little springier, I like the appearance, andI know someone will say the exact opposite, but it seems like Ihave less problems with lifts and tearouts when the cane is flamed. Darryl Hayashida Darryl,In one of the replies to my questions someone mentioned the way you(Isuppose your the only Darryl on the list, or do you have a brother namedDarryl, VBG) treat the pith sides of split strips with a heat gun. Would you mind explaining? If its in TPF, I've just ordered mysubscription and The Best Of TPF, so please forgive me if I'm asking forrepeat info.Thanks in advance, Harry from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Sep 24 15:44:53 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA27827; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:44:38 - 0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Don Define first what do you mean by "nymphing". I have a goodwet fly taper - but in my mind that is not a "nymphing" taper. Again,we have streamer rod tapers which are another matter all together. To meyouare talking about rods designed for fishing short line and casting lots ofweight.Not much design needed to do that - just a stiff stick (spoken like a truedry flyperson). So what are your requirements and from that we can offersuggestions. Chris Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witha rodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyou guysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean 8footer mends so much better. Don D. from flyfisher@members.cmix.com Wed Sep 24 15:56:28 1997 Subject: Len Codella's list? Anyone receive a summer rod list from Len Cordella? Is it overdue? Has anyone spoken with him lately? Don BurnsFlyfisher@members.cmix.com (I think - seems it changed without anynotice?) from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Sep 24 16:03:50 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id RAA23544 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: nymphing taper I haven't had much problem nymphing with a 7 footer but I'm not fishingout very far. I like being able to fish the rod without wearing myselfout. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Don DeLoach [SMTP:d-deloach1@ti.com]Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 5:57 PM Subject: nymphing taper Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviouslylonger isbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectivelywith a rodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the length and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyou guysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easierto handleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it,since an 8footer mends so much better. Don D. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Sep 24 16:16:05 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed,24 Sep 1997 17:15:58 EDT Subject: re: moisture I agree a heat treatment right after final is a good idea. However, youthen face th decision to wrap and varnish the guides or just dip rightaway. Also don't the dimensions shrink a considerable bit when heattreating. is that not the reason the threas goes slack in the initialheat treatment? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Sep 24 16:16:44 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22939 for ; Wed, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id YPVQAJAC; Wed,24 Sep 1997 16:16:09 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: nymphing taper I mean al-around nymphing. Mostly short line but also some longer castsupstream. Really what I am looking for a good nymp and dry rod, just longenough to mend effectively and still be light and delicate for dries. BTW, I'm dry fly fisherman too; its just that a lot of the nearby troutfishingis nymphing and I'm embarasssed to continue using plastic for thispurpose. Don D. ------------------Original text Don Define first what do you mean by "nymphing". I have a goodwet fly taper - but in my mind that is not a "nymphing" taper. Again,we have streamer rod tapers which are another matter all together. To meyouare talking about rods designed for fishing short line and casting lots ofweight.Not much design needed to do that - just a stiff stick (spoken like a truedryflyperson). So what are your requirements and from that we can offersuggestions. Chris Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witharodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean8footer mends so much better. Don D. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 24 16:49:21 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Coming out Martin,I use graph paper and start with a known taper (incidently I went Terry'sroute-starting with Garrison's tapers which I thought too slow, addingwoodhere and there 'til I had what I liked). I don't use a calculator and I tendto stay with the straight tapers, eyeballing the graph much as some of thelist eyeballs the stresses on the computer read-outs. I don't know if thishelps you but it's how I do it and while I've made some horrors early onI'velearned to read the graphs pretty well now.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 24 16:57:05 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out Sir D,If you have a rod flexed it seems to me that the outside of the curveis in tension and the inside of the curve is in compressionwith thecenterline under niether. Are your ounces/sq. in. equal across the rod'scross section? Just a thought.Hank. from mrj@seanet.com Wed Sep 24 17:22:45 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27213 for Subject: Re: Coming out FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Martin,I use graph paper and start with a known taper (incidently I wentTerry'sroute-starting with Garrison's tapers which I thought too slow, addingwoodhere and there 'til I had what I liked). I don't use a calculator and I tendto stay with the straight tapers, eyeballing the graph much as some ofthelist eyeballs the stresses on the computer read-outs. I don't know if thishelps you but it's how I do it and while I've made some horrors early onI'velearned to read the graphs pretty well now.Hank. No, this is just about the way I do it also. I have actually only madeone rod I didn't like and I really have not given it a good test. It wassupposed to be a 7ft 9in. rod and somehow I screwed up when I wrote downthe ferrule stations on my tape for planing. I added 4 inches to the rod about it. I have used the stress curves after the fact. At this point Iam just serching for another taper to make for the winter. I have beenhaving the splines take a set and I may start heat treating a littlemore diligently after reading all this about rods and sets. I have onlyflame treated my rods in the past doing all this before I split theculm.-- Martin Jensen from MasjC1@aol.com Wed Sep 24 17:50:11 1997 Subject: Re: Tuxedo Cane Brian, I've ordered some cane from Tuxedo, but it has not arrived yet (supposedtobe here today). Their number is 209-948-6508. Mark Cole from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 24 17:55:59 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:55:42 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Heat treating oven That's good advise. Tony On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Chris Bogart wrote: Gary A low temp heat cure at 150 degrees prob will not get the desiredresults. Most agree with a need for a temp between 300 - 375 andI will let people decide the temp and period they feel is best forthem.Now for those who don't have a large treatment oven to cure longstrips - you may consider going nodeless since you can cure the culmsections after the nodes been removed in most kitchen ovens.My first rods were a 6'3" 3 piece (Tappan Specials) until I madea heat treatment oven to do long strips. Now I am back to the Tappan pain and agony of nodes! Chris Gary C. Jones wrote: I am just getting started in setting up my rodmaking equipment andhavea question on heat treating ovens. I have access to a unit that I canconvert but the problem is it will only heat to 150 degrees. Has any onehad experience heating at this temp? If I heated for 2 1/2 times longerat 150 degrees would the results be the same as 375 for 7 min. asWaynedescribes? Also if I didn't want to flame the rods would putting theculms in the oven prior to splitting help? (The oven will hold an 8 ft.peice) If you say that it won't work I can probably rewire the unit witha different thermostat and get the 375 degrees.Also would like some input on the Milward binder versus the Garrisonstyle. Thanks in advance for your help Gary C. Jones /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 24 18:03:11 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:02:58 +0800 (WST) Subject: re: moisture I try to make my rods ASAP after the strips are heat treated and the strips until bound are kept in a heat box where the temps are around 35c which according to my therm is about 95F.I noticed the strips used to straighten out before I kept them in the heated area because of moisture re-entry but they now keep a bow shape and have the right "feel" when planing.The finished rods also do seem to be better. Tony On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enter betweencookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period was aroundtwoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing to bedoublysure? Don D. ------------------Original text From: Jon Lintvet , on 9/24/97 9:19 AM:ok...I do believe that moisture has an effect on the action of a rod.However none of us are dipping or finishing the rods as soon as we takethem out of the ovens or what not. In fact people building nodeless(ormaybe just me) are baking the short strips way before they are finalplaned and glued, much less dipped or what not. In that piece ofponderosa the moisture had re-entered in 14 dyas or so with a 3 ply tungoil finish. Granted the tung oil isn't much, and the ponderosa isn'tbamboo but wouldn't the same thing still apply. The moisture is going tore-enter very quickly? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 24 18:10:25 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:10:16 +0800 (WST) Subject: re: moisture Some might disagree as to the need for 5 year old culms in light of heat treating at 350-375 for x time, but the rest of what you say could well be the kind of thing Terry is aluding to.In an erlier post I mentioned keeping my strips in a heated area and this does seem be making some difference.I still can't see what's wrong with designing a rod by computer though. Tony On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Frank Stetzer wrote: Rod building season must be almost here (in the Northern Hemisphere),judging by the traffic on the list. Well, since completing my first rod last spring I've been chomping at the bit to get started on another. I got some cane this summer, but I wasonce told by a old-time rod builder that cane must be seasoned AT LEAST5 years to make a decent rod. Many do not agree with this, but most experienced builders avoid building during the humid summer months(andthis summer was certainly humid in my neighborhood.) So I decided I would (1) Season (dry) the cane in the oven at relativelylow temps for an extended period; (2) Heat treat by whatever method Ichose;and (3) Keep the strips in the oven at low temps during the buildingprocess,right up to finishing, to keep out as much moisture as possible. I started step 1 about a week ago, with a culm split down the center. What I've found from weighing a test piece daily, is that at temps of 100-110F, the cane looses moisture VERY slowly (loosing about 0.5%weight a day), while at 120- 130F the moisture exits much more rapidly (about3-4% weight loss a day). My plan at the moment is to keep at it until the test strip stops loosing weight, then turn down the heat a little and keep itthere until I'm ready. If a person lives in a humid climate, it might be wise to store finishedrods in a closed cabinet with some heat, or to put dessicant packs in the rod tubes.--- -----------------------------------------------------------------------Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: I agree. Surely a lot of moisture has the potential to re-enter betweencookingof the 60s and final planing. On my first rod this time period wasaround twoweeks. How about another heat treatment session right after final planing tobe doublysure? Don D. /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 24 18:25:28 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:25:18 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Stealth bomber On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 flyfisher@members.cmix.com wrote: RO>Funny you should mention Morgans as I was thinking about them thelastRO>time the old should you make a rod quickly (production) or take yourtimeRO>(Garrison) thread began. I read of Morgan using a business consultant6-7RO>years ago. His report mentions Morgan mark and measure everythingratherRO>than using templates etc and each part is hand made. The consultantRO>advised they would be broke in a few years if they didn'tRO>mend their ways. The father was all for it, though reluctantly but theRO>son who seemed to have the controling vote was refusing to changesayingRO>to do so was to make Ford cars that looked like Morgans.RO>Kind of extreme I guess but sometimes these things matter. IsMorganRO>still in business? I don't know. RO>Tony Quote from Oct 1997 R&T magazine: Actually, this may well be one of those pivotal years at MalvernLink: like 1910, with the first Morgan; 1936, the first 4-wheel car;1952, the last trike; 1954, the first curved grille; and 1968, the firstV-8. And, see, it doesn't take much to sum up Morgan history.>> Won't it be nice to be able to call up the Leonard Company and order afew space parts, like Morgan owners can do? Don B.flyfisher@bbs.cmix.com "Progress" isn't everything, in fact I think in some ways when something reaches a certain point of equilibrium it should be maintained at that level rather than trying to continue expanding. The trick is finding that point. Morgan customers will wait (in fact they prob demand to wait If cane rods were quick and easy to make they'd all sell for from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 24 18:29:52 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:29:37 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: nymphing taper On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witha rodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyou guysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean 8footer mends so much better. Don D. I don't know if WC would object to my saying this but his 8' #5 makes a good nymph rod (in my hands at least). Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 24 19:10:26 1997 Subject: Re: Tung oil Terry,One of my favorite tapers I finished with Tung Oil-Ive used it hard overthe last four years-probably landing over a 1000 trout a year ,many in the16"- 20" range to give you some idea of the stresses on the rod. I havenoticed a slowing in the action and am getting sets after playing a largefish. The sets can be straightened without heat. I believe the tung oilfinish has allowed moisture to enter the rod and let it take sets. I amgoingto try Wayne's heat cure over several days. Incidently, the rod is a straighttaper 7 1/2' for a 5wgt (wf5f).Hank. from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Sep 24 19:32:11 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA12946 for Subject: Re: nymphing taper Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witha rodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyou guysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean 8footer mends so much better. Don D.Don,I have yet to understand the fascination with weight, or lack of same.I don't think a hollow-built 8' is necessary for an enjoyable day on thestream, I find even a conventionally constructed 9' is easy and relaxingto use if the balance of the rod/reel/line/body/casting_style is okay.(And I'm not big or particularly strong.)I have an 8' 3" 4wt and a 9' 3wt., both of which are fine for smallflies all day. If I were nymphing (which I don't know much about),wet-fly fishing (which I enjoy, sometimes), or streamer fishing, then Iwould use a 10' 6wt. In these types of fishing, (wet and streamer) falsecasting is minimal, in fact, counterproductive, so the amount ofcasting, and its pace allows a longer, slower rod to be used withoutstress and strain, IMO.What is required of a "nymphing" rod?Best regards,Reed from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Sep 24 19:35:28 1997 Subject: Re: Re: More newbie questions Darryl,I agree on the effects of flaming on both the springiness and ease ofplaning.Hank. from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Sep 24 19:59:07 1997 Subject: Re-binding that will save time and some grief. Once the section have hung air dryingfor16 hours the old glue saturated binding string is removed and fresh stringbound on. Then after the thermoset curing the new unsaturated bindingstringwill just slide off. Al Medved said that he was just removing the threadandthen thermosetting the sections - but in a test (conducted at 12 hours airtime) the section opened up a bit - after one set back additional sectionswere rebound and all went well.The further definition of set back is that the section opened up and theglue hardeded and became useless and it took another six hours to make anewbutt section - on the bright side the test will save considerable time inthefuture. Back to Planing (also read playing) in GrayrockWayne from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Wed Sep 24 20:11:44 1997 Subject: Len Codella's list? Don-Last one got was the spring issue in Apr . Regards, Dennis from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Sep 24 20:12:35 1997 Subject: T - shirt idea At a recent meeting of the Grayrock Academy of Finer TroutBum Arts(akaBamboo U) the discussion turned to ideas for the Makers Rod. Our esteamedrepresentive for Atlanta suggested the idea of doing a T-shirt using theartwork in some fashion. Larry Cory, this years featured artist, is in favorof the idea if there is sufficient interest. Further ideas from the floorincluded the art on the front and the signatures of all the makers on theback. Comments Please ??? Also the academy is looking for ideas of an appropiate title the mightuse the initials GRAFT????? Wayne from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 20:28:56 1997 (205.236.248.194) Subject: Re: moisture Tony Young wrote: Some might disagree as to the need for 5 year old culms in light ofheattreating at 350-375 for x time, but the rest of what you say couldwellbe the kind of thing Terry is aluding to.In an erlier post I mentioned keeping my strips in a heated area andthisdoes seem be making some difference.I still can't see what's wrong with designing a rod by computerthough. / **********************************************************************/ Tony,there in nothing wrong with using a computer to design rods by, I justget pissed off by the condescending attitude of those who do usecomputers to those who don't.Guys on this list are frightened to own up to using good judgment ofwhat a rod should be.There once was a time when quality bamboo rods was a simple handicraftpracticed by honest artisans. I find it amusing that the rods produced tip.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 20:41:21 1997 (205.236.248.194) Subject: Re: Tung oil FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Terry,One of my favorite tapers I finished with Tung Oil-Ive used ithard overthe last four years-probably landing over a 1000 trout a year ,many inthe16"- 20" range to give you some idea of the stresses on the rod. Ihavenoticed a slowing in the action and am getting sets after playing alargefish. The sets can be straightened without heat. I believe the tungoilfinish has allowed moisture to enter the rod and let it take sets. Iam goingto try Wayne's heat cure over several days. Incidently, the rod is astraighttaper 7 1/2' for a 5wgt (wf5f).Hank. Hank,I have not read Waynes book but I guess he suggests a slow and low heat.It may be worth trying to cold straighten the rod after a couple of days Bamboo seems to pick moisture up very rapidly and give it up slowly.Terry.I hope you are not going to us tung on it again from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 24 20:55:15 1997 (205.236.248.194) Subject: Re: moisture Jon Lintvet wrote: I agree a heat treatment right after final is a good idea. However,youthen face th decision to wrap and varnish the guides or just dip right away. Also don't the dimensions shrink a considerable bit when heattreating. is that not the reason the threas goes slack in the initial heat treatment? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 Jon,If you have a section that measures out at say .100 and you cook it andit ends up as .098 you have not physically removed any bamboo.I use a thermoset adhesive that requires heat to set so I get very drysections. I believe you use white glue and splice? If you do I cannothelp too much because I have never used pva glue.Terry from KGaucher@aol.com Wed Sep 24 21:43:45 1997 Subject: Re: Re: nymphing taper Don, Pay particular attention to balancing the outfit as Reed sugested. It'llsavea lot of wear and tear on your arm, and bring out the pleasing castingqualities of the long rod.Regards, Ken from wfmack@evansville.net Wed Sep 24 21:45:44 1997 world.evansville.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, Subject: Re: Wearing out cane rods - is torque a clue? Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: What do other list members know of the working life of their canerods?I personnally am reluctant to overline a rod, use sinking line, letcertain Lefty Kreh types cast my rods, etc. Am I being overcautious?Best regards,Reed Interesting you bring this question up. After the Suncoat Flyfisher'smonthlymeeting, I was talking to the gray bearded guy, Carl Hanson. Carl tookthe tipsection. I'd been working on, at each end between the thumb and finger ofeachhand. He then proceeded to TWIST the section and let it go. He claimedthathow quickly the section sprung back into alignment was an indication ofhow much"life" was in the rod. Anyone ever try this.(as I wright this I picture hundreds of rod builder jumping from theircomputers, running to their shops and twisting sections of bamboorods!!!) Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netAndre Puyans did the same thing when I took him an old Montague to findout whether it would be fishable. I think it was also how easily andfar it would twist--presumably showing how stiff or "soft" the cane is. Bill Mack from eestlow@worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 24 21:52:15 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA26578 +0000 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Sir D,If you have a rod flexed it seems to me that the outside of the curveis in tension and the inside of the curve is in compressionwith thecenterline under niether. Are your ounces/sq. in. equal across the rod'scross section? Just a thought.Hank. Hank, If I might answer to supplement Darryl's, you are correct. The outsideof the curve is in tension, the inside is in compression and the middle(neutral axis) is under no stress. The stress quoted/calculated would bethe maximum stress, that is, the stress at the outside of the curve, inthe surface fibers. That is where a break would start. It would thenpropagate across the rod causing an ever decreasing cross sectionlocally trying to carry the same loading, which in turn causes higherand higher stress as the break propagates. Best regards,Ed Estlow from ghilbers@earthlink.net Wed Sep 24 22:03:38 1997 Subject: Re: Tuxedo Cane Thoman, Brian A. wrote: Does anybody have the number for Tuxedo cane? Do they have any caneavailable? Brian Tuxedo Custom Rod can be reached at (209) 948-6757. This is the number hard to get a hold of and not very good about returning calls, but keeptrying. He also has an evening line at (209) 464-6133, but I have nevergotten anything but a machine there. And yes, he does have cane. Gary Hilbers from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Sep 24 22:12:55 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking One point I would like to make concerning "computer design". I have aquirkyfly rod that I like, a 7'-6", 2-pc, # 4-DT (that some call a # 5-DT). Iwanted to duplicate the action and feel in a rod of 8'-0", # 5-DT, 3-pc. Iused Wayne Cattanach's Hexrod program to make the changes in tapernumbers.Though it was a bit tedious doing the interpolation for elongating thestress curve, the other processes were quick enough - the entire processtookno more than an hour at my plodding speed. The result? Good enough onfirst try - the action feels the same and the rod itself feels as much thesame as the extra half-foot and lines size allows. Not sure it could havebeen done on first try the empirical way.Regards,Richard Tyree from SacMan6@aol.com Wed Sep 24 22:22:45 1997 Subject: Re: Tuxedo Cane Brian,The number is 209-464-6133209-948-6757209-948-6757 faxThe contact is Eddie Perez. He is very good to work with but very busydoingmany things and persistence is the key word here. They have a Lot of cane. Dan Sachs from rhicks@d.umn.edu Wed Sep 24 22:34:06 1997 WAA10754 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:32:13 Subject: Re: T - shirt idea Hi Wayne, GRAFT - How about GRAyrock Flyfishers of Tonkin? Randy Hicks==================Also the academy is looking for ideas of an appropiate title themightuse the initials GRAFT????? Wayne from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 25 01:39:32 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-24 22:53:46 EDT, you write: Sir D,If you have a rod flexed it seems to me that the outside of the curveis in tension and the inside of the curve is in compressionwith thecenterline under niether. Are your ounces/sq. in. equal across the rod'scross section? Just a thought. The stress equation for a cantilevered beam has a basis in experimental data. Experiments were set up to measurewhen a beam made of certain materials - mostly structuralmaterials, steel, different types of wood, etc. failed. I don'tknow if bamboo was ever tested directly, but Garrison wasa structural engineer, and I would expect he had someinsight into the structural properties of bamboo. The short answer to your question would be - Yes the factthat one side is in tension and the other in compressionis taken into account. Due to the fact that that is how thematerials were stressed when equations were developed in the first place. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 25 01:42:50 1997 Subject: Re: non computer rodmaking A computer is just a tool. Like any tool the results dependon the skill of it's user. Darryl Hayashida from g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jp Thu Sep 25 03:13:01 1997 RAA16147 (JST) Subject: Re: Len Codella's list? Thursday, 25th September 1997 Dear Don, Two weeks ago Len wrote me that his new catalog will be published &mailed out in 4 to 6 weeks. Cheers, Christian Home OfficeMr. Christian ThalackerMansion Miyake #303 Otaru University of CommerceKita 16 Nishi 3 International Students CenterKita-ku 001 Sapporo Room 157Hokkaido - Japan Otaru - Hokkaido - Japan Email: g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jpYes, I am just a number flyfisher@members.cmix.com wrote: Anyone receive a summer rod list from Len Cordella? Is it overdue? Has anyone spoken with him lately? Don BurnsFlyfisher@members.cmix.com (I think - seems it changed without anynotice?) from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Sep 25 06:14:58 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02266 for; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:14:56 -0400 Subject: Flaming cane Sir D, Can you re-cap your flaming procedure? TIA from flyfisher@rhco.com Thu Sep 25 07:13:13 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA16158 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Tuxedo Cane Thanks. Brian -----Original Message-----From: MasjC1@aol.com [SMTP:MasjC1@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Tuxedo Cane Brian, I've ordered some cane from Tuxedo, but it has not arrived yet(supposed tobe here today). Their number is 209-948-6508. Mark Cole from cbogart@shentel.net Thu Sep 25 07:19:11 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA02070; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:07 -0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Don A suggestion - look at the Para 15 taper - a good well documented taperwith a wet and dry tip that will nympth well. Chris Don DeLoach wrote: I mean al-around nymphing. Mostly short line but also some longer castsupstream. Really what I am looking for a good nymp and dry rod, just longenough to mend effectively and still be light and delicate for dries. BTW, I'm dry fly fisherman too; its just that a lot of the nearby troutfishingis nymphing and I'm embarasssed to continue using plastic for thispurpose. Don D. ------------------Original text From: Chris Bogart , on 9/24/97 4:42 PM:Don Define first what do you mean by "nymphing". I have a goodwet fly taper - but in my mind that is not a "nymphing" taper. Again,we have streamer rod tapers which are another matter all together. Tome youare talking about rods designed for fishing short line and casting lots ofweight.Not much design needed to do that - just a stiff stick (spoken like a truedryflyperson). So what are your requirements and from that we can offersuggestions. Chris Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviouslylonger isbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectivelywith arodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the length and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it,since an8footer mends so much better. Don D. from flyfisher@rhco.com Thu Sep 25 07:20:41 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA16328 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: moisture Are you saying that a properly heat-treated strip should have a bow toit, instead of being straight? Brian -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young [SMTP:tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au]Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 7:03 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: re: moisture I try to make my rods ASAP after the strips are heat treated and the strips until bound are kept in a heat box where the temps are around35c which according to my therm is about 95F.I noticed the strips used to straighten out before I kept them in the heated area because of moisture re-entry but they now keep a bow shape and have the right "feel" when planing.The finished rods also do seem to be better. Tony from cbogart@shentel.net Thu Sep 25 07:24:29 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA02832; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:24:26 -0400 Subject: Re: T - shirt idea Wayne Good idea - I would do some for the "makers" so designated and thenarrange to have the others to be sold with profits going to the "cause".withthe original with signatures to hang in the clubhouse. Chris WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: At a recent meeting of the Grayrock Academy of Finer TroutBum Arts(akaBamboo U) the discussion turned to ideas for the Makers Rod. Ouresteamedrepresentive for Atlanta suggested the idea of doing a T-shirt using theartwork in some fashion. Larry Cory, this years featured artist, is infavorof the idea if there is sufficient interest. Further ideas from the floorincluded the art on the front and the signatures of all the makers on theback. Comments Please ??? Also the academy is looking for ideas of an appropiate title the mightuse the initials GRAFT????? Wayne from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Sep 25 09:05:25 1997 Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:05:15 +0800 (WST) Subject: RE: moisture What happens when the strips (nodes removed as per nodelessconstruction) are heat treated is they bow slightly pith inwards. If the strips are left out of my heat area during the wet winter typical in this part of the country the strips will loose this bow as they take up moisture. During the summer I don't notice this happen as the summers here are hot and dry. My first few rods always seemed to me a bit "so so" action wise, useable and ok but not what I was after.I knew it wasn't the taper or the accuracy of planing so it had to be moisture. I increased the time in the oven and keep the strips heated and dry until glued and then until dipped.I'm still experimenting with time and temps but I think there must be a stage where beyond a certain minimum more time dosn't seem to affectthe cane that much. I'm prepared to accept it may, but I haven't seen it. Tony On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Thoman, Brian A. wrote: Are you saying that a properly heat-treated strip should have a bow toit, instead of being straight? Brian -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young [SMTP:tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au]Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 1997 7:03 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: re: moisture I try to make my rods ASAP after the strips are heat treated and the strips until bound are kept in a heat box where the temps are around35c which according to my therm is about 95F.I noticed the strips used to straighten out before I kept them in the heated area because of moisture re-entry but they now keep a bowshape and have the right "feel" when planing.The finished rods also do seem to be better. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Sep 25 11:18:15 1997 with ESMTP id LAA18675 for ; Thu, 25 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id RIQRAPBE; Thu,25 Sep 1997 11:17:40 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: nymphing taper I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. ------------------Original text On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviously longerisbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectively witharodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the ideallength and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it, sincean8footer mends so much better. Don D. I don't know if WC would object to my saying this but his 8' #5 makes a good nymph rod (in my hands at least). Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Sep 25 11:44:16 1997 Subject: Re: Re: nymphing taper In a message dated 9/25/97 4:20:12 PM, you wrote: My preference in fishing is to cast a long line. Nobody needs to tell methata good short line nymph guy can outfish me most of the time, but that'swhatI like. I'd hate to do without my soft hackle wets and streamers. from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Thu Sep 25 11:47:22 1997 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu,25 Sep 1997 11:46:50 CDT Subject: Re: Stressed-Out It's common for me to be wrong, but here's what I naively believe aboutstresses. When the bamboo on the outside of a bend of the rod is stretched, the bamboo inside of the bend iscompressed, and the glue line perpendicular to the plane of the bend undergoes the most powerful stresswithin the rod. This is of a kind called shear. Weak glue may "creep" or slide to accommodate theinternal shear stress. Such glue weakness might be caused by bad glue or bad curing or glue deteriorationdue to moisture from bad finish. Creeping glue, among other things (?), will allow sets in a rod. Sets ofthis kind could be restraightened. If the bend is severe enough to damage the rod permanently, and if the glueis stronger than the cane, delamination of the glue will occur before the individual fibers break intwo. If the glue is very strong, separation of the fibers from one another (splintering) will occur beforethe individual fibers break in two. If so, penta rods (all other things being equal) should be more resistant tosets than hex rods. If so, a rod with severe sets might be restored to mint condition by a total reglueing. - Grayson from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Sep 25 11:49:45 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA04548 for; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:49:43 -0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Ummm, Don, er... uh Is anyone looking? I .... er...uh... love to cast a nymph, but don't tell anyone, OK? Talk about coming out of the closet. The Para -15 is good recommendation. This was my first rod I built and I'm very happy with it. In my travels I have met many dry fly purists, as a matter of fact, I have outfished many a dry fly purist. I'm probably 50% wet/nymph and 40% dry fly, 10% streamer. Tom "gold ribbed hare's ear" Ausfeld I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. from rfairfie@cisco.com Thu Sep 25 12:10:24 1997 KAA20623 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:09:51 - 0700 Subject: Re: nymphing taper I prefer to fish to the rise, but most of the time when I can get away,thereis little or no surface activity. I fish primarily small nymphs here inCalifornia. Roger from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Thu Sep 25 09:19:46 1997Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:17:39 -0700 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Don DeLoach Subject: Re: nymphing taperMIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BitX-Mailer: BeyondMail for Windows/Professional 2.3X-BeyondMail-Priority: 1X-Receipt-From-Agent: trueX-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CRENContent- Length: 1350 I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. ------------------Original text From: Tony Young , on 9/25/97 9:24 AM:On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviouslylonger isbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectivelywith arodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the length and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it,since an8footer mends so much better. Don D. I don't know if WC would object to my saying this but his 8' #5 makes a good nymph rod (in my hands at least). Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Sep 25 12:37:14 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00775 for ; Thu, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id UPRLBPBQ; Thu,25 Sep 1997 12:36:40 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: nymphing taper: THE closet Tom: Thanks for coming out of THE closet--the nymphing closet! BTW, where can I find the taper for the Para-15? Don "Bitch Creek" DeLoach ------------------Original text 12:42 PM:Ummm, Don, er... uh Is anyone looking? I .... er...uh... love to cast a nymph, but don't tell anyone, OK? Talk about coming out of the closet. The Para -15 is good recommendation. This was my first rod I built and I'm very happy with it. In my travels I have met many dry fly purists, as a matter of fact, I have outfished many a dry fly purist. I'm probably 50% wet/nymph and 40% dry fly, 10% streamer. Tom "gold ribbed hare's ear" Ausfeld I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Sep 25 12:49:24 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA00955 for; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:49:21 -0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper: THE closet Don,Goto the rod maker's page Don't know the http of the top of my head.Its the Paul Young para-15. Good luckt Thanks for coming out of THE closet--the nymphing closet! BTW, where can I find the taper for the Para-15? Don "Bitch Creek" DeLoach ------------------Original text From: "Thomas Ausfeld" , on 9/25/9712:42 PM:Ummm, Don, er... uh Is anyone looking? I .... er...uh... love to cast a nymph, but don't tell anyone, OK? Talk about coming out of the closet. The Para -15 is good recommendation. This was my first rod I built and I'm very happy with it. In my travels I have met many dry fly purists, as a matter of fact, I have outfished many a dry fly purist. I'm probably 50% wet/nymph and 40% dry fly, 10% streamer. Tom "gold ribbed hare's ear" Ausfeld I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren'trising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seemsasthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists.True, ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. from STEVEF@inetone.net Thu Sep 25 13:20:55 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:23:13 -0400 (206.105.173.69::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Thu, 25 Sep1997 14:23:12 -0400 Subject: Ignore-test Test from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Sep 25 13:25:25 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 8256; Thu, 25 Sep 97 14:25:03 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6258; Thu, 25 Sep1997 14:24:59 -0400Subject: Re: nymphing taper I'll tie most anything on, but my favorite are nymphs. I like tying themandI like the subtlety of the take, although sometimes its not so subtle.Drifting nymphs through tea colored waters is typical of my home water(inMaine) and it fits my angling just fine. It's pure hope and wonder. I oncespent some time fishing the Little Firehole in Yellowstone, may be someof youknow it. Farupriver there is not a soul to be found, the water is gin clear, and thebowsabundant. You can often get high on the bank, cast upstream, and watchthetake. Never a possibly here in Maine, or rarely so. But even in that clearwater it was sometimes difficult to actually see the trout, all I could seewasthe fly suddenly disappearing and then reappearing as the trout spit it out.Over half the "takes" I never saw in my line, it never moved, I only saw thefly disappear and reappear. (Since then, I've spoken to a bone fish guidewhoseen the same activity on the flats, and then with coho I notice it as wellthis past summer.) Some of fishing is all about never really knowing, evenapplies to new tapers. Bob. from Canerods@aol.com Thu Sep 25 13:27:29 1997 Subject: Re: Len Codella's list? Thanks for the feedback. Can't wait to see the next list - guess I bettergetcrackin' and sell a few more of my project rods. Don from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Sep 25 13:51:51 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: aging Before anybody gets on a soap box and says that bamboo is not wood,there are certain reactions that happen chemically over a period of timethat cannot be duplicated with heat treating. There's a major differencebetween kiln dried and air dried wood, they work and feel and havetotally different properties. Violin wood has to be air dried at leastfive years for a piece only 3/4" thick or it wont play (bend) or sound(a audio measure of how good the wood is bending andstraightening-vibrating). Is there a possibility that there are certainchemical (turpines,etc..?) in bamboo that only attain there final statewith years of air drying and that would explain the comment that oldtimers air dryed for years before they made their rods and maybe thatwould explain the difference that terry pointed out between old rods andwhat we are making today? I dont pretend to be a expert but I know frommy professional experience with wood that you cannot shortcut timeaging. I would be curious if there was some way we could find out ifthis holds true with bamboo, after all grain is grain and thesimilarities between wood grain (hollow tubes) and power fibers (hollowtubes) is pretty close. Just my two cents take or leave it! Patrick from cbogart@shentel.net Thu Sep 25 15:15:15 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA22960; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:14:36 - 0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Tom / Terry How crowded is that closet anyway??!!?? Next thing you know youwill be discussing worms, power bait, and (gag) chumming. But seriously, I think the wet fly rod (not to be confused withnymphing) is one of those finer lost arts. My guide friend Steveis now getting back into wet flies (classic patterns) and neededa good rod to do those tuck casts and other refined moves thatseemed to have gotten swept away in the graphite craze for fastdry fly rods. Chris Thomas Ausfeld wrote: Ummm, Don, er... uh Is anyone looking? I .... er...uh... love to cast a nymph,but don't tell anyone, OK?Talk about coming out of the closet.The Para -15 is good recommendation. This was my first rod I builtand I'm very happy with it.In my travels I have met many dry fly purists, as a matter of fact, Ihave outfished many a dry fly purist. I'm probably 50% wet/nymph and40% dry fly, 10% streamer. Tom "gold ribbed hare's ear" Ausfeld I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren'trising? Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seemsasthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists.True, ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Thu Sep 25 15:20:29 1997 (CEST) ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:15:10 GMT Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out ----------Stress Curves Stress curves being a way to judge a taper, I have persuaded my cousin, astructural engineer and computer-freak, to make a programme, that A)drawsstress curves and B) is able to transform a taper from one length toanother, and from one # to another. He claims that he can do it, but in order to compare with the rods in theTapers Archive, he needs to know how the "forces" pulling the rod tip aremeasured. In Denmark we use the metric system, whereas US and GB,homes ofrod-building, use the weird and wonderfull measures like inches, feet,pounds, grains and whatever. Please write the formulas and weigths andsoon, this technical genius of mine will do the necessary translationhimself. I am sorry, but simply cannot express this more clearly, as technical stuffis beyond my humble abilities in english. As far as I understand (havingproblems understanding the mathematics in danish as well) it hassomethingto do with weight of flylines in different #`s, acceleration and so on. This is obviously technical stuff, but said cousin claims his abilities tounderstand.Me - I just make rods and do some fishing in between. Am in fact going toSweden this week-end. Brown trout beware. Best Regards Carsten from flyfisher@members.cmix.com Thu Sep 25 15:29:02 1997 Subject: Ask and you shall receive! Today's mail contained a copy of Len C's fall rod list - now if only arich uncle would die! Terry, I see a couple of your rods there too. If I only knew how muchthe hospital/insurance company will hose me for the wife's recentoperation, I'd buy that 7' 3 wt on the list! I might buy it anyway! Ta, Don Burns from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Sep 25 16:18:58 1997 Subject: Re: Flaming cane In a message dated 97-09-25 07:53:21 EDT, you write: Can you re-cap your flaming procedure? The actual flaming itself, or the heat treatment before Iflame it? As for the flaming, get a propane torch witha brushy flame and go to it! Keep the flame moving,and there is a point where the suface enamel explodesoff in little flakes. Move on down the culm. It's easierto flame a culm split in half lengthwise. The heat treatment before I flame it is a heat gun on thepith side. Heat the bejeezus out of it, and I mean scorchthe pith to black. Pay close attention to the nodes (removethe diaphrams first). Don't use a torch to heat the inside.A torch has too intense heat, and doesn't let the heat soakthrough to the enamel side before it ignites the pith. You canalso heat gun the enamel side a little bit just to even out the temperature a little. This process takes longer than an oven,and uses a lot of electricity, your heat gun is on high for 30to 45 minutes. The reason I like heat gunning the pith side is that you canvery aggressively heat the culm from the pith side, and I meanan oven thermometer reading 400 deg F pressed up againstthe enamel side, and there is very little change of color of theenamel side. I heat gun the inside even if I am going to flameit afterwards. I just don't do as thorough a job if it's going tobe flamed. And I don't need an oven. Darryl Hayashida from ChrisScriv@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 25 16:19:50 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA3015 I have several older cane rods in good condition that I would liketo display on the walls of my fishing room. I know that keeping them intherod tubes is probably best for the rods, but I would like to be able to seethem. Short of hanging them verticaly by the tip guides, which I cannot dowith some of them because of their length, how can I display themwithoutwarping them? Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Chrisscriv@worldnet.att.net from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Thu Sep 25 17:28:22 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA15619 for; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:28:59 GMT Subject: Re: aging ----------Patrick wrote> Before anybody gets on a soap box and says that bamboo is not wood,there are certain reactions that happen chemically over a period of timethat cannot be duplicated with heat treating. My experience might be worth less than 2 cents, but still: I use bamboowhich has spent 25 years or more in a dry attick. Heattreating is done in a7 feet long tube, diameter app. 10 inches. In the middel is a hole, where apropaneflame heats up the tube. After firing up the propane burner, I waitsom 15 minutes, and then, with the burner still on, the bamboo is movedquickly forwards and backward while rotated at the same time. This isdoneto both ends of the bamboo. Heat treating is stopped, when the poleaquiresa golden straw colour. This is the way, my old tutor taught me toheattreat. Result: Never gets a set in a rod. Since I flame for a short period, I recon it must be the airdrying thatgives the good result. Best Regards Carsten from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 25 17:43:00 1997 (205.236.248.221) Subject: Re: aging Coffey, Patrick W wrote: Before anybody gets on a soap box and says that bamboo is not wood,there are certain reactions that happen chemically over a period oftimethat cannot be duplicated with heat treating. There's a majordifferencebetween kiln dried and air dried wood, they work and feel and havetotally different properties. Violin wood has to be air dried at least five years for a piece only 3/4" thick or it wont play (bend) or sound (a audio measure of how good the wood is bending andstraightening- vibrating). Is there a possibility that there arecertainchemical (turpines,etc..?) in bamboo that only attain there finalstatewith years of air drying and that would explain the comment that oldtimers air dryed for years before they made their rods and maybe thatwould explain the difference that terry pointed out between old rodsandwhat we are making today? I dont pretend to be a expert but I knowfrommy professional experience with wood that you cannot shortcut timeaging. I would be curious if there was some way we could find out ifthis holds true with bamboo, after all grain is grain and thesimilarities between wood grain (hollow tubes) and power fibers(hollowtubes) is pretty close. Just my two cents take or leave it! Patrick Pat,I had some bamboo that came from the old Payne rod shop. The bamboo wasan orange colour and was a few years old and cost me almost twice asmuch as new yellow-green bamboo. I needed the cane so I paid the extra. I honestly did not find any difference working the old stuff or in theaction of a finished rod.Terry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Sep 25 17:56:21 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:56:10 EDT Subject: Re: Ask and you shall receive! Question: Maybe this is a ridiculous question but who is Len C?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from mcreek@sirus.com Thu Sep 25 18:10:08 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets Bullsh_t tung oil has no moisture resistance. It is one of the mostwater- resistant of finishes. You can't just dip your rod in it one time,however. Several thin coats must be applied sequentially with about 24hours drying time in between. Several high end trout nets are finishedthisway.But keep at it Terry, the world needs curmudgeons too! (G) Brian Terence Ackland wrote: Thoman, Brian A. wrote: I've built 6 rods now and #2 and #3 took small sets, just as youdescribed. Mine would even take a set if I got hung on the bottomwhilenymphing and tried to pull free and I was able to bend the rod in theother direction to correct the set. I was moisture causing theproblem.I too use a tung oil finish. The next rods I've built have beenflamedand heat treated at about 250 for 20 minutes. None of my rods takesetsnow, no matter how much I bend them. I spoke with Wayne aboutcorrecting this problem on the problem rods and he suggested that Iheat > > treat the finished rod at 100 degrees for about 7 days. He saidthiswould remove any moisture in the cane. Since the "discovery" of myproblem the flaming AND heat treating appears to have solved myproblem. Brian -----Original Message-----From: JHecht9234@aol.com [SMTP:JHecht9234@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, September 21, 1997 4:45 PM Subject: Rod sets I'm a beginner and have built two rods, and have recently noticedwhatmay bea problem. After playing a decent sized fish, one of the tips wasslightlybent. The bend was easily straightened by bending in the otherdirection,but it made me wonder whether this was normal or a problem. Iexperimentedwith the rods by bending the tips in one direction (not near thebreakingpoint but similar to playing a larger fish), holding for ten or soseconds,and releasing. All of the tips showed some very slight butnoticeable"memory" -- which again could be corrected by bending the other way. Bothrods are finished with tung oil, as I don't yet have a dippingsetup.Wondering whether the "memory" could have something to do withthefinishingor the glue, I tried the same experiment with a butt section stripthat hadbeen final planed but discarded. Sure enough, the strip showedmemoryaswell. Because the rods came from two different culms, I doubt it is aproblem withthe bamboo. More likely, it seems this is either a normal propertyofbambooor has to do with moisture reentry into the cane. I wouldappreciateanyone's thoughts on whether this is normal, what may be causing it, andwhether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon. Is thiswhat isreferred to as a "set" or does that imply a more permanent memory?Idon'thave access to any other cane rods and therefore have not been abletotestany other rods. Thanks for any advice. signs (atleast to my untutored casting) of being otherwise "soft". Try to steer away from Tung oil, it has no moisture resistance at all.In fact the actual process of polymerizing attracts moisture.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 25 18:47:22 1997 (205.236.249.150) Subject: Re: Ask and you shall receive! flyfisher@members.cmix.com wrote: Today's mail contained a copy of Len C's fall rod list - now if only a rich uncle would die! Terry, I see a couple of your rods there too. If I only knew how muchthe hospital/insurance company will hose me for the wife's recentoperation, I'd buy that 7' 3 wt on the list! I might buy it anyway! Ta, Don Burns Don,I received a fax from Len yesterday, I was rather relieved because I owehim so much stuff I thought he would give up on me. Besides trying to stop the house from falling down I have been gettingthe bugs out of my beveler and trying to make some more room in myworkshop for some equipment to draw ferrules. I started trying a new impregnation process last winter and I am reallyexcited about it. I impregnated some strips and left them in a cornerof my basement and they went the whole summer through all the humidity.I have a humidifier running all summer usually but this summer I leftit off so the humidity went right up. I planed a couple of strips totest that the resin was not just on the surface and they still kepttheir spring. As I say I am excited and it takes a lot to get meexcited( like free beer) Don, I should hold on one of those Codella rods, they are impregnatedbut these new ones I have started are going to be really worth waitingfor.I have a bunch of back orders to get finished plus the rods that Lenneeds for his inventory but if you are prepared to wait I will build youa rod on the condition that you fish it really, really hard.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 25 19:19:54 1997 (205.236.248.178) Subject: Re: Rod sets Brian Creek wrote: Bullsh_t tung oil has no moisture resistance. It is one of the mostwater- resistant of finishes. You can't just dip your rod in it onetime,however. Several thin coats must be applied sequentially with about24hours drying time in between. Several high end trout nets arefinished thisway.But keep at it Terry, the world needs curmudgeons too! (G) Brian Brian,I make fishing poles not high end nets. You cannot compare a net hoopwith a rod.I may be a curmudgeon but I am a bloody right curmudgeon That is whynone of the old matriarchs of the list ever get involved when I try toget real rod stuff going I used Tung for a couple of years and I know from bad experience. Youcan perhaps take a look at The Encyclopedia of Wood, A very in depthbook by the Forest Products Lab. This is the publication where I got thefigures. I did not invent them. I am just sharing some of what I have experienced and reseached, if youare happy with Tung thats OKTerry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Sep 25 19:34:14 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:34:08 EDT Subject: Sets.... I got into a conversation with a friend of mine a few minutes ago about sets in rods. What is the big deal? I guess I just don't understand. It seems to me it would not have an affect on the rod? He had been speaking to a rod maker Fred Benton? Fred wanted to sell a graphite rod to him and talked down bamboo from what I can see.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Sep 25 19:34:15 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:34:10 EDT Subject: Re: Flaming cane No offense, but I do not understand. There must be at least three weeks (at the very minimum) before the rod is finished. With the ponderosa study the moisture had returned 100% within 14 days. Am I missing something? The heat treatment before I flame it is a heat gun on thepith side. Heat the bejeezus out of it, and I mean scorchthe pith to black. Pay close attention to the nodes (removethe diaphrams first). Don't use a torch to heat the inside.A torch has too intense heat, and doesn't let the heat soakthrough to the enamel side before it ignites the pith. You canalso heat gun the enamel side a little bit just to even out the temperature a little. This process takes longer than an oven,and uses a lot of electricity, your heat gun is on high for 30to 45 minutes. The reason I like heat gunning the pith side is that you canvery aggressively heat the culm from the pith side, and I meanan oven thermometer reading 400 deg F pressed up againstthe enamel side, and there is very little change of color of theenamel side. I heat gun the inside even if I am going to flameit afterwards. I just don't do as thorough a job if it's going tobe flamed. And I don't need an oven. Darryl Hayashida Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from rcurry@jlc.net Thu Sep 25 19:52:27 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05938 for Subject: Re: nymphing taper Chris Bogart wrote: Tom / Terry How crowded is that closet anyway??!!?? Next thing you know youwill be discussing worms, power bait, and (gag) chumming. But seriously, I think the wet fly rod (not to be confused withnymphing) is one of those finer lost arts. My guide friend Steveis now getting back into wet flies (classic patterns) and neededa good rod to do those tuck casts and other refined moves thatseemed to have gotten swept away in the graphite craze for fastdry fly rods. Chris Chris,You forgot to mention another significant aspect of wet fly rods,theykeep the fly wet. You know how annoying it is to have a wet fly startfloating, well with the wide loop/low line speed, you don't shake allthe water from your Orange Fishhawk.You can fish dry flies with a wet fly rod, just put more wrist into itand the loop tightens up for drying the fly.It sure is a relaxing way to cast. Has Steve finished his rod yet?Best regards,ReedBTW: Had a really annoying time casting to some rising browns a fewweeks ago. Two other fellows worked over them with every dry and nymphin the book before giving up in disgust. I went through a lot of fliesbefore trying an old WET FLY trick. I tied on a #14 White Miller (it wasnearly dark) and cast out, then retrieved by starting a roll cast. Thefly skimmed smoothly through the surface film. Caught two 12" browns onthe next two casts, they clobbered it and hooked themselves (which isfortunate,since I had no control). Had two more strikes before totaldarkness.Are you going to share your recipe for chum? from WDHCJL@aol.com Thu Sep 25 21:04:15 1997 Subject: Re: aging Carston,Perhaps you could share with us your source fro 25 year old tonkin? from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Sep 25 21:29:25 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:29:20 EDT Subject: Para15 What is the para 15 made for line wise?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jp Thu Sep 25 23:53:38 1997 NAA18994 (JST) Subject: Re: Ask and you shall receive! Friday, 26th September 1997 Dear Jon, If you are referring to Len Codella ... he used to be the owner ofThomas & Thomas in MA before settling in FL with his Heritage TackleEnterprise ... selling vintage and fine equipment (supplying rods etc tothe stars, i.e., to ARRTI). Cheers, Christian Home OfficeMr. Christian ThalackerMansion Miyake #303 Otaru University of CommerceKita 16 Nishi 3 International Students CenterKita-ku 001 Sapporo Room 157Hokkaido - Japan Otaru - Hokkaido - Japan Email: g0901@edu.otaru-uc.ac.jpYes, I am just a number Jon Lintvet wrote: Question: Maybe this is a ridiculous question but who is Len C?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 26 01:49:58 1997 Subject: Re: Flaming cane In a message dated 97-09-25 20:37:14 EDT, you write: No offense, but I do not understand. There must be at least three weeks (at the very minimum) before the rod is finished. With the ponderosa study the moisture had returned 100% within 14 days. Am I missing something? Yes you are. This much heat is doing more than just removingmoisture. It is crosslinking lignins and polymerizing sugars inthe sap. After you flame a culm you can let it sit forever andit will not return to original softness. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Sep 26 02:06:35 1997 Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out In a message dated 97-09-26 02:38:19 EDT, you write: Stress curves being a way to judge a taper, I have persuaded my cousin, astructural engineer and computer-freak, to make a programme, that A)drawsstress curves and B) is able to transform a taper from one length toanother, and from one # to another. Before he goes to all the trouble check out:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/hexrod-doc.html first. Frank Stetzers web page does all thatalready. Darryl Hayashida from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 26 02:09:01 1997 with SMTP id AAA11643 for ;Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:08:28 +0000 Subject: Re: Christopher Scrivens wrote: I have several older cane rods in good condition that I would liketo display on the walls of my fishing room. I know that keeping them intherod tubes is probably best for the rods, but I would like to be able to seethem. Short of hanging them verticaly by the tip guides, which I cannotdowith some of them because of their length, how can I display themwithoutwarping them? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.Chrisscriv@worldnet.att.net I would think that if you had them supported in several locations(especially toward the handle/reel seat) you could minimize any tendencyto take a "set". What I'd look for is something similar to a screw eyebolt except U-shaped rather than round and line it with rubber/foam. George from angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com Fri Sep 26 02:29:14 1997 env- from (angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com) (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) JAA01249; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:29:06 +0200 09:29:06 +0200 "Re: nymphing taper" (Sep 25, 11:17am) Subject: Re: nymphing taper On Sep 25, 11:17am, Don DeLoach wrote:Subject: Re: nymphing taperI love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Hello hit the water with a dry fly when there nothing happens in the surface. Ifishwith dry fly when I can, with nimph and wets when I should. rollcasting. Angel Don D. -- ______________________________________________________________________ Angel Contreras email: angel@neu.sgi.com Silicon Graphics Desktop Software vmail: 56758 ch. des Rochettes 2Coordinator tel: +41-32-8433600 CH-2016 CortaillodEuropean I/S fax: +41-32-8433909 Switzerland from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Sep 26 06:38:19 1997 Subject: Re: Rod Display Start with a piece of hardwood 3/4 x 2 x 5, or a dimension you findpleasing. Draw a diagonal offset by 1/2" on each end. Drill three orfour progressively larger holes as required for the rod to be displayed. The consideration for the spacing of the holes is based on theirdiameter and not their centers. After the holes are drilled then cut the piece along the offset diagonaland you have two display brackets. You can key hole the back to hang ordrill mounting holes through. I use two per rod, you could use more ifyou are concerned about them taking a set. I turn my rods occaisionallyand have not had a problem. I don't line my hanging brackets. If were to do so I think I would use afelt or some other yard good rather than a rubber product. Regards, Steve P.S. These are just display rods and not fishing rods! from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Sep 26 07:11:34 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA01191; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:11:30 -0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Reed Steve's rod has been refinished wrapped - guides cleaned and re bluedand ready for dipping - a real jewel of a rod. He is chomping at the bit tofish it. It has turned out better than anyone would expect. I have thetaperfaithfully recorded after it was stripped. Such a sweetheart of a rod -you willlove it. Next week - my recipe for grasshopper chum for spring creeks! Chris Reed F. Curry wrote: Chris Bogart wrote: Tom / Terry How crowded is that closet anyway??!!?? Next thing you know youwill be discussing worms, power bait, and (gag) chumming. But seriously, I think the wet fly rod (not to be confused withnymphing) is one of those finer lost arts. My guide friend Steveis now getting back into wet flies (classic patterns) and neededa good rod to do those tuck casts and other refined moves thatseemed to have gotten swept away in the graphite craze for fastdry fly rods. Chris Chris,You forgot to mention another significant aspect of wet fly rods,theykeep the fly wet. You know how annoying it is to have a wet fly startfloating, well with the wide loop/low line speed, you don't shake allthe water from your Orange Fishhawk.You can fish dry flies with a wet fly rod, just put more wrist intoitand the loop tightens up for drying the fly.It sure is a relaxing way to cast.Has Steve finished his rod yet?Best regards,ReedBTW: Had a really annoying time casting to some rising browns a fewweeks ago. Two other fellows worked over them with every dry andnymphin the book before giving up in disgust. I went through a lot of fliesbefore trying an old WET FLY trick. I tied on a #14 White Miller (it wasnearly dark) and cast out, then retrieved by starting a roll cast. Thefly skimmed smoothly through the surface film. Caught two 12" brownsonthe next two casts, they clobbered it and hooked themselves (which isfortunate,since I had no control). Had two more strikes before totaldarkness.Are you going to share your recipe for chum? from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Fri Sep 26 07:46:52 1997 05:46:07 -0700 Subject: For Terry A. Subject: Time: 8:35 AMOFFICE MEMO For Terry A. Date: 9/26/97 Terry: Can you give the address again for the Forest Service Labs (?) website andthepublication name that explored the water resistance of finishes? Thanks. --Rich from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Sep 26 07:49:13 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Flaming cane In a message dated 9/26/97 12:37:14 AM, you wrote: Jon - I did some moisture re-entry tests on triangular strips some yearsago. About half the moisture will return in 2 weeks, the rest takes abouttwomonths. There are two places for moisture to be in wood or cane; in thecells(intercellular moisture), or between the cells (intracellular moisture).Theintracellular moisture can easily enter or leave the cane in response toatmospheric conditions. The Intercellular moisture has to go through thecellwalls by the slow process of osmosis. The methods Terry and others onthelist have mentioned to control moisture and prevent re-entry areimportant toprevent excessive variations, but don't get obsessed. Keep your strips andyour rods in a dry place and you will be fine.I also agree with Darryl that more than moisture control is going on withheat treating -- Tom from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Fri Sep 26 08:07:05 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:06:59 EDT Subject: Re: Flaming cane I see. That is one element of the discussion thus far that has been lacking. I wonder...I'll get back to you...let me think before I shoot my mouth off :) From: SalarFly@aol.comSubject: Re: Flaming cane In a message dated 97-09-25 20:37:14 EDT, you write: No offense, but I do not understand. There must be at least three weeks (at the very minimum) before the rod is finished. With the ponderosa study the moisture had returned 100% within 14 days. Am I missing something? Yes you are. This much heat is doing more than just removingmoisture. It is crosslinking lignins and polymerizing sugars inthe sap. After you flame a culm you can let it sit forever andit will not return to original softness. Darryl Hayashida Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri Sep 26 09:43:04 1997 JAA05560 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:43:02 - (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id JAA26695 for ; Subject: Re: Flaming cane On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: The reason I like heat gunning the pith side is that you canvery aggressively heat the culm from the pith side, and I meanan oven thermometer reading 400 deg F pressed up against^^^^^^^^^Darryl, I'm glad you posted this; I was planning to experiment with how hotflaming/heat gunning really got the cane. (I probably still will!) Perhaps the cane is affected not only by how hot and how long but also HOW FAST the temperature is raised (and lowered). Treating witha flame or heat gun spikes the temp much more than an oven would. (Maybe its just because I'm a professional statistician, but I love all the factors you get to play with building cane rods. On the musical instrument makers newsgroup, there is a discussion of freeze-dryingwood. Hmmm...)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Fri Sep 26 12:31:22 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:31:15 EDT Subject: Hexrod Ok, I guess I was confused about the use of Hexrod. The use is primarily for computing stress values. Is that correct? I thought the program would output a stress curve. Why can you not input a dimension for 0? Is that because the output would equal zero due to the math involved. To graph the curve do you just move it to excel or what not? For the dimension given at 1 do you just use the 0 value? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Fri Sep 26 12:45:01 1997 10:44:27 -0700 Subject: Polyurethane glue Subject: Time: 1:30 PMOFFICE MEMO Polyurethane glue Date: 9/26/97 I am thinking about using Elmer's polyurethane glue for ferrules, reelseats,and cork. However, the label says that it needs moisture to catalyze thecure(i.e., wet the parts to be glued). Is this OK for cane rods? Does anyonehave experience with this stuff? Thanks. --Rich from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Sep 26 15:03:39 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Stress-ed Out Thanks, Ed.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Sep 26 15:06:27 1997 Subject: Re: Tung oil Terry,Nope, I've learned my lesson.Hank. from flyfisher@rhco.com Fri Sep 26 15:15:15 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id QAA04073 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: nymphing taper Have you or do you plan to published this taper? I've built two tapersyou have on the rodbuilders site and they've produced absolutely greatrods. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Chris Bogart [SMTP:cbogart@shentel.net]Sent: Friday, September 26, 1997 8:10 AM Subject: Re: nymphing taper Reed Steve's rod has been refinished wrapped - guides cleaned and rebluedand ready for dipping - a real jewel of a rod. He is chomping at thebit tofish it. It has turned out better than anyone would expect. I havethe taperfaithfully recorded after it was stripped. Such a sweetheart of a rod- you willlove it. Next week - my recipe for grasshopper chum for spring creeks! Chris from frank.berg@sstar.com Fri Sep 26 15:42:24 1997 Subject: Jasper wrap I am in the process of restoring a rod that calls for B&W jasper as thewrap.Now I know that it has long since been discontinued as a silk that isavailable, but I am reasonably sure that someone here has come on thesame problem and I would appreciate knowing how to develop a substitutewrap to use. I don't want to change the color or wrap to something elseand feel that a woven or possibly pen colored thread is the answer. Anyone out there care to take a shot at this? Frank---OLX 2.1 TD Do you need a silencer if you are going to shoot a mime? from ghinde@inconnect.com Fri Sep 26 17:49:44 1997 0000 Subject: Re: Jasper wrap Try "Elephant" silk made in England. I have a Belvoirdale catalog from1990 in which black/white silk thread size 60 (U.S. size 00) is offered. In 1990 the phone #for Belviordale was (215)886 7211. I have no idea ifthe company is still there, or even viable. You could also contactGudebrod and ask if they have any black/white jasper size A nylonleft.(item # 8002).George Greys River Rod Co. ----------From: frank.berg@sstar.com Subject: Jasper wrapDate: Friday, September 26, 1997 2:38 PM I am in the process of restoring a rod that calls for B&W jasper as thewrap.Now I know that it has long since been discontinued as a silk that isavailable, but I am reasonably sure that someone here has come on thesame problem and I would appreciate knowing how to develop asubstitutewrap to use. I don't want to change the color or wrap to something elseand feel that a woven or possibly pen colored thread is the answer. Anyone out there care to take a shot at this? Frank---OLX 2.1 TD Do you need a silencer if you are going to shoot a mime? from Canerods@aol.com Fri Sep 26 18:10:11 1997 Subject: Re: Jasper wrap In a message dated 97-09-26 16:45:35 EDT, you write: Frank, Why not just buy some silk blk/white jasper thread. Still available, even if it's expensive. Belvoirdale sells it for ~$10 aspool. Check on Len Gorney's web page for the Belvoirdale's url: OR: Run black and white threads along side each other as you wrap. Don Burns from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 26 19:03:06 1997 (205.236.249.77) Subject: Re: Flaming cane SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-25 20:37:14 EDT, you write: No offense, but I do not understand. There must be at least threeweeks (at the very minimum) before the rod is finished. With theponderosa study the moisture had returned 100% within 14 days. AmImissing something? Yes you are. This much heat is doing more than just removingmoisture. It is crosslinking lignins and polymerizing sugars inthe sap. After you flame a culm you can let it sit forever andit will not return to original softness. Darryl Hayashida Paul Young was the master of radical flaming. He used this technique in1952, 2 years into the cane embargo to mask the poor cane he was forcedto use. It was not used because he felt it was a superior method. If E . Schwiebert is to be believed in his, The Iconography of the splitcane rod, Young impregnated his flamed blanks in a synthetic resin. When I first got started I read that when bamboo was cooked apolymerization process took place. I really do not think this is so inthe light of experience. I do know that too much heat causesirreversible damage to bamboo from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 26 19:23:48 1997 (205.236.249.77) Subject: Re: For Terry A. Rich Margiotta wrote: Subject: Time:8:35 AMOFFICE MEMO For Terry A. Date:9/26/97 Terry: Can you give the address again for the Forest Service Labs (?) websiteand thepublication name that explored the water resistance of finishes?Thanks. --Rich Rich,http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ This is the Forest Products Lab in Madison The publication is The Encyclopedia of Wood. It gives a run down on allthe finishes available and their moisture proofness. There is anexcellent section on adhesives and how to use and choose and why. Theyalso published, Wood: as an Engineering Material. this is another goodread, much of the stuff is duplicated in both books and I would go withthe encyclopedia.Remember Rich it is moisture not water resistance I was talking about.Almost anything will cause water to bead up and run off. It is keepingthe humidity out.Terry from d-deloach1@ti.com Fri Sep 26 20:04:42 1997 with ESMTP id UAA02252 for ; Fri, 26 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id NMBBATBI; Fri,26 Sep 1997 20:01:44 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: For Terry A. Terry, Just out of curosity, what is your job/education background, and how longhaveyou been building rods? BTW I saw one your rods at Donegal in Roscoe overthesummer. Very nice looking stick, I think it was a 7 ft 4 weight.Regretfully Ididn't get to cast it. You don't flame your rods? Don D. ------------------Original text Rich Margiotta wrote: Subject: Time:8:35 AMOFFICE MEMO For Terry A. Date:9/26/97 Terry: Can you give the address again for the Forest Service Labs (?) websiteand thepublication name that explored the water resistance of finishes?Thanks. --Rich Rich,http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/ This is the Forest Products Lab in Madison The publication is The Encyclopedia of Wood. It gives a run down on allthe finishes available and their moisture proofness. There is anexcellent section on adhesives and how to use and choose and why. Theyalso published, Wood: as an Engineering Material. this is another goodread, much of the stuff is duplicated in both books and I would go withthe encyclopedia.Remember Rich it is moisture not water resistance I was talking about.Almost anything will cause water to bead up and run off. It is keepingthe humidity out.Terry from mcreek@sirus.com Fri Sep 26 21:29:32 1997 Subject: Re: Rod sets Terry,Sorry I got defensive. I do like tung oil, and it will take a good deal tomake me change my mind. But of course personal experience must be ourguide, and using what works for each of us is certainly what makes anyendeavor worthwhile. Thanks for your continued mentoring! Brian "A curmudgeon-in-training" Creek Terence Ackland wrote: Brian Creek wrote: Bullsh_t tung oil has no moisture resistance. It is one of the mostwater- resistant of finishes. You can't just dip your rod in it onetime,however. Several thin coats must be applied sequentially with about24hours drying time in between. Several high end trout nets arefinished thisway.But keep at it Terry, the world needs curmudgeons too! (G) Brian Brian,I make fishing poles not high end nets. You cannot compare a net hoopwith a rod.I may be a curmudgeon but I am a bloody right curmudgeon That is whynone of the old matriarchs of the list ever get involved when I try toget real rod stuff going I used Tung for a couple of years and I know from bad experience. Youcan perhaps take a look at The Encyclopedia of Wood, A very in depthbook by the Forest Products Lab. This is the publication where I got thefigures. I did not invent them. I am just sharing some of what I have experienced and reseached, if youare happy with Tung thats OKTerry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Sep 27 07:49:18 1997 (205.236.248.175) Subject: Re: Rod sets Brian Creek wrote: Terry,Sorry I got defensive. I do like tung oil, and it will take a gooddeal tomake me change my mind. But of course personal experience must be our guide, and using what works for each of us is certainly what makes any endeavor worthwhile. Thanks for your continued mentoring! Brian "A curmudgeon-in-training" Creek Brian,I like tung, it is easy to use and it looks good and smell great.I used it at one time but found it did not keep the moisture out verywell.Example: A couple of years ago a guy returned a rod that he said hadgone soft. I put the rod together and it was terrible, you could tie aknot in it, it was softer than raw cane. The rod was an older rod fromthe time I was using Tung. The bright n/s work had turned colour andwhen I looked at the brass cap at the base of the tube it had corrodedto a dark brown with a definite water mark. I called the guy and headmitted that the rod was stored in his basement, stood in a containerthat water had leaked into.I tried to remove the moisture with gentle heat but it did not work( Iperhaps should have persevered) , anyway I built the guy another rod.This example is severe but it does show that Tung does not prevent theingress of moisture.I want to feel secure that my rods can be kept in adverse conditionswithout deteriorating. Perhaps a bucket of water is expecting too much.The rod was not in contact with the water, just a very wet environment. Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Sep 27 08:10:34 1997 (205.236.248.175) Subject: Re: For Terry A. Don DeLoach wrote: Terry, Just out of curosity, what is your job/education background, and howlong haveyou been building rods? BTW I saw one your rods at Donegal in Roscoeover thesummer. Very nice looking stick, I think it was a 7 ft 4 weight.Regretfully Ididn't get to cast it. You don't flame your rods? Don D. Don, I am just a old delinquent from South London, England. Left school at 16with honours in under achieving and trouble making. Apprenticed as aScientific instrument maker and drifted into tool and die making.I donot flame my rods, I quit smoking 17 years ago. I enjoy flaming some theguys on this list though.What are you Don, a psychiatrist ?Terry from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Sep 27 08:30:56 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA08422 for Subject: Re: nymphing taper Chris Bogart wrote: Reed Steve's rod has been refinished wrapped - guides cleaned and re bluedand ready for dipping - a real jewel of a rod. He is chomping at the bit tofish it. It has turned out better than anyone would expect. I have thetaperfaithfully recorded after it was stripped. Such a sweetheart of a rod -you willlove it. Next week - my recipe for grasshopper chum for spring creeks! Chris Chris,It surely is NOT turning out better than *I* expected. That is a highgrade rod. But I am enjoying the Ballan tremendously, and Steve'sdiscovery, vicariously. Please post the taper to Jerry's page, okay? "Sweetheart". Smartass! You only get me once with that trick. NextJune, I will be watchful of any 8'6" rod with a 5" grip that you handme.Best regards,Reed from stevef@inetone.net Sat Sep 27 10:10:01 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:12:49 -0400 (206.105.173.36::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Sat, 27 Sep1997 11:12:48 -0400 Subject: Been missing I want to apoligize to everyone on the list-I asked several questions of the list several days ago and realized yesterday i wasn't receiving mail form the list. Mike (list owner) was very kind in assisting me resolve the problem.I will await the archives for Sept. to see if the questions were answered. Thanks to any who gave answers.Steve from wfmack@evansville.net Sat Sep 27 17:32:56 1997 world.evansville.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, Subject: Re: Flaming cane Frank Stetzer wrote: On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: The reason I like heat gunning the pith side is that you canvery aggressively heat the culm from the pith side, and I meanan oven thermometer reading 400 deg F pressed up against^^^^^^^^^Darryl, I'm glad you posted this; I was planning to experiment with how hotflaming/heat gunning really got the cane. (I probably still will!) Perhaps the cane is affected not only by how hot and how long butalso HOW FAST the temperature is raised (and lowered). Treating witha flame or heat gun spikes the temp much more than an oven would. (Maybe its just because I'm a professional statistician, but I loveall the factors you get to play with building cane rods. On the musicalinstrument makers newsgroup, there is a discussion of freeze- dryingwood.Hmmm...)......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899.Could you drop me the address of that group, Frank. I've been toynigwith the idea of making a mandolin but haven't known where to getstarted. Those folks might help. Thanks. Bill Mack from wfmack@evansville.net Sat Sep 27 17:36:29 1997 world.evansville.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, Subject: Re: nymphing taper Don DeLoach wrote: I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren't rising?Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; it seems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists. True,ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. ------------------Original text From: Tony Young , on 9/25/97 9:24 AM:On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviouslylonger isbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectivelywith arodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the length and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. What doyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easier tohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it,since an8footer mends so much better. Don D. I don't know if WC would object to my saying this but his 8' #5 makes agood nymph rod (in my hands at least). Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/I use nymphs a lot, but still have a hard time detecting the take. Bill from jfoster@gte.net Sat Sep 27 18:46:14 1997 Subject: Re: Hexrod Jon If you want stress graphs use the excel versionJerry from rclarke@eou.edu Sat Sep 27 19:32:51 1997 Subject: Re: nymphing taper I have found that using a nymph is much more consistent than a dry inmostsituations. Also, I tend to catch larger fish on nymphs. I prefer a drywhen I can use one, but nymphs produce more fish in most cases. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: William Mack Subject: Re: nymphing taperDate: Saturday, September 27, 1997 4:33 PM Don DeLoach wrote: I love dry flies too, but what do you guys do when the fish aren'trising? Nottrying to be a pain in the neck, I honestly would like to know; itseems asthough almost all the members of this list are true dry fly purists.True, ornot? Are there any guys out there who prefer wets or nymphing? Don D. ------------------Original text From: Tony Young , on 9/25/97 9:24 AM:On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Gentlemen: I'm looking for opinions on the ideal taper for nymphing. Obviouslylonger isbetter but is there anyone out there who can nymph very effectivelywith arodshorter than 8'? It seems like a hollow-built 8 footer would be the length and about the max weight for all-day castiong comfort. Whatdoyouguysthink? My initial feeling is that a 7 1/2 footer would be much easiertohandleall day but giving up that last 6 inches just doesn't seem worth it,since an8footer mends so much better. Don D. I don't know if WC would object to my saying this but his 8' #5 makes agood nymph rod (in my hands at least). Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/I use nymphs a lot, but still have a hard time detecting the take. Bill from geneh@telenet.net Sat Sep 27 23:34:13 1997 Subject: Tomkins Impregnated #60 Could anyone provide any info regarding a cane rod a friend recentlyacquired. The only label is - Tomkins impregnated #60 . It is in excellentcondition with 2 tips and casts a 6WF very nicely. MTIA. from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Sep 28 11:00:52 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA26455 for Subject: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Gentlepeople,We have all spent hours debating the merits of different rodmaterials,and apologizing for our own preferences, but I discovered yesterday thatall of that is unnecessary -- the material doesn't make any difference Of the 4 fly fishermen I saw on my favorite stretch of riveryesterday,only one was "casting" more than 5 feet of line. So, if 75% of the flyfishermen could do their fishing with a broomstick, then the majority offishermen will be satisfied with any rod material (even graphite :). I suppose some might quibble with the small sampling I haveundertakenbefore making such bold (read, foolish) assertions. Unfortunately, Ihave heard that many of these "Learn to Fly Fish in One Day" coursesaccent the weighted short line nymphing technique (which could beperformed just as effectively with a spinning rod). What proportion of fly fishermen do you see on your streams that areusing the rod to cast an unweighted fly and leader?Best regards,Reed from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 28 15:05:55 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:05:49 EDT Subject: Salmon So I went up to the Salmon river this sat with my girlfriend. Had a blast. A guy that was fishing near us and hooking up left and right was using what he called a level taper fly line. I looked in Orvis and Cabella's and didn't see anything like that. I saw ads for Teeny lines and what not. Does anyone know what he was talking about and maybe another name for it. We don't need to take up bandwidth so if you can help please mail me off the list. Thanks in advance.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from vjwilson@micron.net Sun Sep 28 16:00:35 1997 Subject: Re: Salmon jon, a level line is just that "level", absolutely notaper whatsoever from beginning to end. the only ones i'veeven seen in recent years have been sold really cheap (10bucks or so) in the finer fly sections of places like kmartor walmart type places.ya got my attention with the salmon river. guess severalstates have one. ours is the famous "river of no return"salmon river of idaho.leonard in s.w. idaho address as listed from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Sep 28 16:47:52 1997 RAA19554 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:59:35-0400 Subject: Re: nymphing taper Reed OK - the post of the wet fly taper follows - here a hintbeware of any rod next year that has Chinese Red silk wraps. On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:33:55 -0400, Reed F. Curry wrote: Chris Bogart wrote: Reed Steve's rod has been refinished wrapped - guides cleaned and re bluedand ready for dipping - a real jewel of a rod. He is chomping at the bittofish it. It has turned out better than anyone would expect. I have thetaperfaithfully recorded after it was stripped. Such a sweetheart of a rod -you willlove it. Next week - my recipe for grasshopper chum for spring creeks! Chris Chris,It surely is NOT turning out better than *I* expected. That is a highgrade rod. But I am enjoying the Ballan tremendously, and Steve'sdiscovery, vicariously. Please post the taper to Jerry's page, okay? "Sweetheart". Smartass! You only get me once with that trick. NextJune, I will be watchful of any 8'6" rod with a 5" grip that you handme.Best regards,Reed Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Sep 28 16:52:23 1997 SAA19616 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:04:25-0400 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Reed You forget that most of my fishing is casting dry's starting withleader only and going out to about 20' max. OH Yes, its got to be a castand not a flick, stick, or dap or you have lost the brookie. On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:03:51 -0400, Reed F. Curry wrote: Gentlepeople,We have all spent hours debating the merits of different rodmaterials,and apologizing for our own preferences, but I discovered yesterday thatall of that is unnecessary -- the material doesn't make any difference Of the 4 fly fishermen I saw on my favorite stretch of riveryesterday,only one was "casting" more than 5 feet of line. So, if 75% of the flyfishermen could do their fishing with a broomstick, then the majority offishermen will be satisfied with any rod material (even graphite :). I suppose some might quibble with the small sampling I haveundertakenbefore making such bold (read, foolish) assertions. Unfortunately, Ihave heard that many of these "Learn to Fly Fish in One Day" coursesaccent the weighted short line nymphing technique (which could beperformed just as effectively with a spinning rod). What proportion of fly fishermen do you see on your streams that areusing the rod to cast an unweighted fly and leader?Best regards,Reed Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Sep 28 17:19:51 1997 ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:32:00 -0400 Subject: Wet Fly Taper Reed / Jerry (pls post on homepage) Classic Wet Fly Rod 8' 6" - 4 wt Here is that good classic wet fly taper that a real conisour of flyfishing would enjoy. It is truely a wet fly action - great for those softhackles.The original taper is off a rod that was part of an "infamous" trade withReedCurry that he will live to regret - again. Special Note on this rod. All thesnakeguides on the tip are 2/0 and mid are 1/0 with a 8 stripper on buttsection. This rod will make a tuck cast very nicely and has been known tocatchfish. So for those who want to explore the persuits of classic wet flypatterns andbe able to fish them properly give this rod a try. Station Diatip .0685 .07410 .08415 .09820 .11425 .12630 .142ferrule .154 10/64ths35 .15440 .16245 .17450 .18655 .19860 .20865 .230ferrule .236 15/64ths70 .24475 .25280 .26085 .27490 .28495 .360100 .360105 .360 Regards Chris from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 28 18:20:57 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:20:51 EDT Subject: Re: Salmon Thanks...for the info. Basically I liked it because it was small in diameter and for a vertical presentation of nymphs, the line cut through the water really well. The Salmon river I was reffering to was the one in NY. I fished the upper fly zone. Great day. People (not me) hooking up left and right. Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:09:19 -0600From: Leonard Wilson Subject: Re: Salmon jon, a level line is just that "level", absolutely notaper whatsoever from beginning to end. the only ones i'veeven seen in recent years have been sold really cheap (10bucks or so) in the finer fly sections of places like kmartor walmart type places.ya got my attention with the salmon river. guess severalstates have one. ours is the famous "river of no return"salmon river of idaho.leonard in s.w. idaho address as listed Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Sep 28 18:24:26 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:24:20 EDT Subject: Leaders? Does anyone have any good formulas for leaders? I used to make my own but I lost my formula sheet and was wondering. Bill, didn't you tie some up?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sun Sep 28 20:00:31 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:21:20 MDT #19314) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: Leaders JonI've been using George Harvey's formula for a number of years and like it. With (out of the closet) nymphs I just use a butt mid and tip to lengthneeded.jerry-wy from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sun Sep 28 21:48:35 1997 Subject: Hot Ferrules To Sir D, et al:I'd like to try some high temp. metal coloring techniques. I know that jewelery making and many other metal working projects require thatnickelsilver be melted ... how hot can I go before nicklesilver melts? Alsohow hot can I go before the solder in the ferrules melt. I'm looking at acoloring process that requires a 500 F. degree temp. Can I get away withthis for my reel seats? How about the ferrules? Dennis (hot &bothered) Higham from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sun Sep 28 21:48:37 1997 Subject: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Reed-As much as I would like to be contrary - I have to agree with you ....Ifyou're going to short-line nymph ..then a piece of 8' copper pipe wouldprobably work as well as a payne..as long as the tippet is 4x or better . Ijust got back from the Catskills (about two weeks too late) and John attheCatskills Fly Fishing Museum remembers all the rod builders as strange,butnice people (your name didn't ring a special bell-probably a good thing, asMartha Stewart would say). A good friend of mine is the best short linenympher I have ever seen - he catches too many fish, but at the end of aday's fishing when we're sipping a good single malt and talking about theday's fishing ....I think I had more fun , even if he out fished me 2 or 3to one. I like to sight fish (nymph or dry), and I can stay in pretty muchone place almost all day if there are fish that I haven't caught and fliesstill left in my box. One of the perks of my job is the chance to fish inlots of "Famous" places .. and.. I see most every one nymphing, even whenthere are emergers or drys on the surface and the fish are rolling. Thisis the ultimate "Formula Fishing".... they don't know what's happening onthe river and don't care because they've been taught that a nymph with abobber will catch fish.... period! However, we are gentlepeople... and...we need to be careful not to dissuade the next generation of flyfishers...Each of us started at some less exaulted place and grew to our presentspace - hopefully these less fortunate fisherpeople will grow toappreciate the joys of dry fly with a 10-14' antique rod and silk line.I've got a circa 1920's Granger, 91/2',5wt to restore this winter ... maybewe can trade @ Grayrock this spring? Regards, Dennis P.S. Just got my hands on a new in the box Halford 7wt/DT silk line....will bring it to Greyrock next year and we'll play to find the "rightrod". from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Sep 29 02:13:13 1997 Subject: Re: Hot Ferrules In a message dated 97-09-28 22:54:04 EDT, you write: I'd like to try some high temp. metal coloring techniques. I know that jewelery making and many other metal working projects require thatnickelsilver be melted ... how hot can I go before nicklesilver melts?Alsohow hot can I go before the solder in the ferrules melt. I'm looking at acoloring process that requires a 500 F. degree temp. Can I get away withthis for my reel seats? How about the ferrules? I can't remember exactly where nickel silver melts, but it's over the 1000 deg. F mark. I don't know what type of solder is used to putthe ferrules together, but more than likely they used what is calledsoft or easy silver solder. I also can't remember exactly where itmelts, but I seem to recall around 800 deg F. I think 500 deg. Fshould be okay. This is with the fittings off the rod I hope. Theglue, bamboo or wood wouldn't hold up to that high a temp. Darryl Hayashida from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Sep 29 03:34:09 1997 Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:33:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Oh my god!!!! When I mentioned the WC 8' #5 was a nice nymph taper I didn't mean 5' of line with a lump of lead with feathers, I meant nymphing, sight nymphing at that.The above taper is nice to to dry fly fish with also, it's just a nice taper. Tony On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, Reed F. Curry wrote: Gentlepeople,We have all spent hours debating the merits of different rodmaterials,and apologizing for our own preferences, but I discovered yesterday thatall of that is unnecessary -- the material doesn't make any difference Of the 4 fly fishermen I saw on my favorite stretch of riveryesterday,only one was "casting" more than 5 feet of line. So, if 75% of the flyfishermen could do their fishing with a broomstick, then the majority offishermen will be satisfied with any rod material (even graphite :). I suppose some might quibble with the small sampling I haveundertakenbefore making such bold (read, foolish) assertions. Unfortunately, Ihave heard that many of these "Learn to Fly Fish in One Day" coursesaccent the weighted short line nymphing technique (which could beperformed just as effectively with a spinning rod). What proportion of fly fishermen do you see on your streams that areusing the rod to cast an unweighted fly and leader?Best regards,Reed /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com Mon Sep 29 05:11:33 1997 1997 12:11:23 +0200env- from (angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com) (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) MAA27228; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:11:23 +0200 12:11:22 +0200 "Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine" (Sep 28, 10:45pm) Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Each of us started at some less exaulted place and grew to our presentspace - hopefully these less fortunate fisherpeople will grow toappreciate the joys of dry fly with a 10-14' antique rod and silk line.I've got a circa 1920's Granger, 91/2',5wt to restore this winter ...maybewe can trade @ Grayrock this spring? Regards, Dennis Hello Dennis. Silk lines is one of the thinks that I want to try in the next season. It isstrange that I never read any thing about it in this email list. Can someonetell me if they are available in USA and what do you think about? Angel -- ______________________________________________________________________ Angel Contreras email: angel@neu.sgi.com Silicon Graphics Desktop Software vmail: 56758 ch. des Rochettes 2Coordinator tel: +41-32-8433600 CH-2016 CortaillodEuropean I/S fax: +41-32-8433909 Switzerland from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 29 08:10:52 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:10:46 EDT Subject: 5/6 wt Does anyone outhere have a suggestion for a 9'0 3pc 5/6wt. I hate to say this but I doubt I will be dry fly fishing. Maybe a rod with a second tip. Thanks in advance.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Mon Sep 29 08:29:33 1997 Subject: Re: Hot Ferrules Sir Darryl-Thanks, I want to try charcoal dust bluing (don't know if it will work withN/S) and didn't want to reduce a reel seat cap&ring to a puddle in theoven. While I've been known to be a bit agressive flaming cane and heatingnodes my heat treating sched doesn't reach 500 deg. (yet) the bamboo issafe for now. Thanks Again, Dennis from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Mon Sep 29 08:29:33 1997 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Angel-Very few people fish silk lines anymore. They're heavier than modern lines thesilk will be thinner, a little stiffer, and will shoot linefarther(IMHO).On the downside...silk is expensive and requires alot morecare. Silk lines may have to be dried occasionally during a day's fishing,must be dried after fishing and bugs eat them so if you lay a silk line outto dry and have lunch you may find that the grasshoppers have chewed yourline in lots of places, also you can't just put your reel away at the endof the season the silk line will have to be removed, dried, stored away from bugs/critters etc. Having said that, I'm pretty much a novice on silklines - Reed Curry and others on this list know alot more than moi.Silk lines are still being made by Noel Buxton in England and sold by LenCodella here in the US for $189.00/line( US dollars). Dealers inused/collectible tackle sell old silk lines when they get then for muchless (frequently in the $15- 35.00 range) and sometimes when buying anoldreel you'll find a silk line on it. If you're interested in a new silk lineLen C's address is 2201 South Carnegie Dr., Inverness, Florida 34450 -phone 352-637-5454. Dennis from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Mon Sep 29 09:30:53 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:30:42 -0400 Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:30:42 -0400 Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:30:42 -0400 Subject: Silk Lines - I'm curious Okay, I've perked up... Does anyone know where I can find more informationon how / were silk lines made. Thanks for the help. * John A. Whitaker* NYSDOH AIDS Institute: 372 Corning Tower* E-Mail: jaw12@health.state.ny.us* (518) 486-1383 from skyboss@ibm.net Mon Sep 29 10:35:21 1997 SMTP id PAA43136 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 199715:35:14 GMT 29 Sep 1997 08:33:20 -0600 Subject: Silk Fly Line Source =_NextPart_000_01BCCCB2.578AF220" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCCB2.578AF220 Check out this web page for those of you interested in purchasing silkflylines. http://www.belvoirdale.com/silklines.html and here for some limited information about silk fly lines. http://gorp.com/cl_angle/canecoun/cbc0695.htm - Ken ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCCB2.578AF220 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCCB2.578AF220-- from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Mon Sep 29 10:56:11 1997 (CEST) ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:52:28 GMT Subject: Re: Stress-ed Out ---------- Stress curves being a way to judge a taper, I have persuaded my cousin,astructural engineer and computer-freak, to make a programme, thatA)drawsstress curves and B) is able to transform a taper from one length toanother, and from one # to another. Before he goes to all the trouble check out:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/hexrod-doc.html first. Frank Stetzers web page does all thatalready. Darryl Hayashida Sir D I'll check it out ASAP - thank You for once again giving a helping hand. Best regards Carsten from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Mon Sep 29 10:56:15 1997 (CEST) ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:52:25 GMT Subject: Re: aging ----------From: WDHCJL@aol.com Subject: Re: agingDate: 26. september 1997 03:03 Carston,Perhaps you could share with us your source fro 25 year old tonkin? Would not mind, butt unfortunately not possible. A stack of some 50 polesis owned by my friend and fellow clubmember Hans. He has, mostgraciously,offered to sell, but under these conditions: A) He charge the same price,as he had to pay originally himself: 15 US dollars per pole, B) He onlysells to clubmembers and C) only for the use of said members, and nochanceof buying more than needed. Best regards Carsten from angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com Mon Sep 29 11:14:58 1997 1997 18:14:47 +0200env- from (angel@atlantis.neu.sgi.com) (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) SAA29832; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:14:47 +0200 18:14:46 +0200 "Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine" (Sep 29, 9:24am) Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine On Sep 29, 9:24am, dennis higham wrote:Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust FineAngel-Very few people fish silk lines anymore. They're heavier than modernlines thesilk will be thinner, a little stiffer, and will shoot linefarther(IMHO).On the downside...silk is expensive and requires alot morecare. Silk lines may have to be dried occasionally during a day's fishing,must be dried after fishing and bugs eat them so if you lay a silk line outto dry and have lunch you may find that the grasshoppers have chewedyourline in lots of places, also you can't just put your reel away at the endof the season the silk line will have to be removed, dried, stored away from bugs/critters etc. Yes this is also what I read but it's not what people (people who use Silkfrequently) say when you talk with them. They say that the onlyrequirement isto put some grease before fishing and to clean them after fishing, that'swhatwe already do if we want to keep a line clean and floating high. Having trytocast one, I think that they cast better because they are thinner for thesamewait, but the real good think is that they float very high and that theyhave avery good slip. I saw some which where more that 10 years old and they where in verygoodshape. We can have first quality of silk line in France for $133.Tiebbo, Haute Definition, Robinson are the ones that you can get here and Imust say the there is even new people getting in this business. Angel -- ______________________________________________________________________ Angel Contreras email: angel@neu.sgi.com Silicon Graphics Desktop Software vmail: 56758 ch. des Rochettes 2Coordinator tel: +41-32-8433600 CH-2016 CortaillodEuropean I/S fax: +41-32-8433909 Switzerland from frank.berg@sstar.com Mon Sep 29 11:57:04 1997 Subject: Salmon Could it be that he built his own taper from level line?I have done this in order to tune a particular rod for a particular reason.Short rods in particular seem to respond to this form of line. Frank from frank.berg@sstar.com Mon Sep 29 11:57:05 1997 Subject: Leaders? How about the 20/20/20 leader?20% butt at no less than 2/3rds the diameter of the line20% taper with no more than .02 difference between each 20% tippet? When in doubt you can start here and work out the details as you see fit. Work it backward from the fly size if you prefer, but don't neglect thefirstrule. Frank from michael@wupsych.wustl.edu Mon Sep 29 12:04:19 1997 CDT Subject: Musical Cane In an attempt to disprove the old adage, "You can't teach an olddog new tricks", I decided to start piano lessons. (don't LAUGH!!!) To learn the musical staff, the teacher suggested I make up a little on the lines of the staff - the notes being: C, E, G, & B. A bitof thought produced what I felt a fitting sentence: Cane Ends Graphite Blues- - - - :-) Mike - Old Dog - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from Canerods@aol.com Mon Sep 29 13:42:34 1997 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine In a message dated 97-09-29 06:15:49 EDT, you write: Angel, Sorry for jumping into the conversation. Phoenix silk lines (3DT - 6DT) can be purchased from Len Corella ($189 -US$)- Phone # (352) 637-5454 Fax - 5420 Belvoirdale also sells silk line - I don't remember the details - URL: http://belvoirdale.com/ Tight (silk) lines, Don Burns from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Sep 29 13:50:20 1997 Subject: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Does anyone outhere have a suggestion for a 9'0 3pc 5/6wt. >> Jon - from the vantage point of having met you and seen you cast, Isuspectyou would find such a rod a bit on the heavy side. I'd suggest a nicemoderate 8 footer like the Garrison 212. Why use a rod with the strength (and weight ) to cast 100+ feet all day when you will be fishing a shortlineand guiding drifts with an extended arm for hours at a time?Hey------- You aren't thinking of using a cane rod to sling lead on theSalmon River are you? from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 29 14:40:28 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:40:23 EDT Subject: Re: Salmon No I figured it out. He was using a floating running line without a shooting head. Good idea though. Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:35:24 -0500From: frank.berg@sstar.comSubject: Salmon Could it be that he built his own taper from level line?I have done this in order to tune a particular rod for a particular reason.Short rods in particular seem to respond to this form of line. Frank Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Sep 29 14:43:22 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Leaders? frank.berg@sstar.com wrote: How about the 20/20/20 leader?20% butt at no less than 2/3rds the diameter of the line20% taper with no more than .02 difference between each20% tippet? When in doubt you can start here and work out the details as you see fit. Work it backward from the fly size if you prefer, but don't neglect thefirstrule. Frank I'm no mathemetician, just an humble theologian, but that doesn't addup. Don't you mean that each mid section, or tapered section, is 20%?Personally, I like the leaders Gary Borger describes in his"Presentation". They work well for me in almost all circumstances. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Sep 29 16:04:31 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA26875; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:04:27 - 0400 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Dennis You need to work on your trade with Reed - I have completlyreconditionedthe line I got from him this year and it is wonderful - also don't they saythe same things about bamboo rods. Question is why spend $40 on plastic thatreally does not give the satisfaction or glee that silk will. The silk lines Ihave canserve a lifetime - I have worn out plastic ones when they develop thosenastylittle cracks in the skin. Soooo you spend how much for a Payne Rod andthencheapen it with a cheap plastic line - shame on you Chris dennis higham wrote: Angel-Very few people fish silk lines anymore. They're heavier than modernlines thesilk will be thinner, a little stiffer, and will shoot linefarther(IMHO).On the downside...silk is expensive and requires alot morecare. Silk lines may have to be dried occasionally during a day's fishing,must be dried after fishing and bugs eat them so if you lay a silk line outto dry and have lunch you may find that the grasshoppers have chewedyourline in lots of places, also you can't just put your reel away at the endof the season the silk line will have to be removed, dried, stored away from bugs/critters etc. Having said that, I'm pretty much a novice on silklines - Reed Curry and others on this list know alot more than moi.Silk lines are still being made by Noel Buxton in England and sold by LenCodella here in the US for $189.00/line( US dollars). Dealers inused/collectible tackle sell old silk lines when they get then for muchless (frequently in the $15- 35.00 range) and sometimes when buying anoldreel you'll find a silk line on it. If you're interested in a new silk lineLen C's address is 2201 South Carnegie Dr., Inverness, Florida 34450 -phone 352-637-5454. Dennis from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Sep 29 16:10:19 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Musical Cane aren't the lines E,G,B,D,F and the spaces F,A,C,E,. E,G,B,D,F or EveryGood Boy Does Fine. I'm pretty sure that it can be changed to relate tobamboo. ---------- From:michael@wupsych.wustl.edu[SMTP:michael@wupsych.wustl.edu]Sent: Monday, September 29, 1997 10:01 AM Subject: Musical Cane In an attempt to disprove the old adage, "You can't teach an olddog new tricks", I decided to start piano lessons. (don't LAUGH!!!) To learn the musical staff, the teacher suggested I make up a littlesentence to help remember the names of the notes that are writtenon the lines of the staff - the notes being: C, E, G, & B. A bitof thought produced what I felt a fitting sentence: Cane Ends Graphite Blues- - - - :-) Mike - Old Dog - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Sep 29 16:15:36 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14927 for ; Mon, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id VLVPABAN; Mon,29 Sep 1997 16:15:01 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper If you really want to try a LONG cane rod save yourself some grief and justTRYfishing all day with a 9 foot H-I or Montague. They will work just fine fornymphing but as has been sadi, how long your arm can take it is anothermatterentirely. You can get a decent 9 footer CHEAp from Codella or Spurr. But Iagree that an 8 footer will be much more pleasant to hold all day Don D. ------------------Original text Does anyone outhere have a suggestion for a 9'0 3pc 5/6wt. >> Jon - from the vantage point of having met you and seen you cast, Isuspectyou would find such a rod a bit on the heavy side. I'd suggest a nicemoderate 8 footer like the Garrison 212. Why use a rod with the strength (and weight ) to cast 100+ feet all day when you will be fishing a shortlineand guiding drifts with an extended arm for hours at a time?Hey------- You aren't thinking of using a cane rod to sling lead on theSalmon River are you? from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Sep 29 16:28:13 1997 with ESMTP id QAA06298 for ; Mon, 29 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id QFVCBMBI; Mon,29 Sep 1997 16:27:37 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Leaders? footof .016, 8 inches each of .014, .012, .010 and .008, and finish it off with 3or so feet of 4x/5x/6x. Don't step down more than 2 thou betweensections; thiswill create an unwanted hinge and a dead turnover. I like to use Maxima or Mason for the taper and a good softer nylon likeClimax Handtied leaders are much better than store bought Good LuckDon D. ------------------Original text frank.berg@sstar.com wrote: How about the 20/20/20 leader?20% butt at no less than 2/3rds the diameter of the line20% taper with no more than .02 difference between each20% tippet? When in doubt you can start here and work out the details as you see fit. Work it backward from the fly size if you prefer, but don't neglect thefirstrule. Frank I'm no mathemetician, just an humble theologian, but that doesn't addup. Don't you mean that each mid section, or tapered section, is 20%?Personally, I like the leaders Gary Borger describes in his"Presentation". They work well for me in almost all circumstances. Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Sep 29 17:07:03 1997 Subject: Wraps over a scarf? When repairing a tip that's been broken near the ferrule, should I wrapthe whole scarf with the white silk thread and then over-wrap with theguide wrap threads? Or should I just wrap the white silk up to the the guide wraps and leavea slight unwrapped area under the guide and then pick up with the whitesilk again on the other side of the guide wraps? Seems option #1 would be best. Don Burns from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Mon Sep 29 17:13:21 1997 XAA18943 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:16:38+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Help - Beginner Present Dear Sirs/Madams, I hope you guys can help me, a Welshman with no access to a British cane rod site. I'm taking up fly fishing after an absence of 20 years ( at 15 there's a lot to take your mind off fishing! ) and wish to use a cane rod rather than " a bit of plastic". As I can not afford to buy a new one, and along with building my hose don't have time to build one from scratch, I am looking to pick one up from a fishing auction in the near future. My questions are as follows:- 1. With an "old" ( 1950's ) rod, what should I be looking for that makes it, useable or unusable. Any tips? I don't mind carrying out reasonable repairs. 2. What is Palakona cane? Is it construction type or type of cane like Tonkin? 3. What happens to the action of a rod with age? If they have been well cared for, are they more fragile as they age? 4. Are rods better varnished or oiled? 5. Will there be much difference between second hand, name quality rods, i.e. Hardy, Farlow, Fosters, Sharpe etc., and No Name rods? 6. Lastly, what is the best way to store a cane rod? Horizontal on a rack? Propped up in a corner? Vertically in a rack? hanging vertically from pegs? If on a rack - does anyone have a good pattern? Sorry for the long list but I have no fishing friends who use cane, and it does not seem too popular with tackle shops. regards Simon Frobisher from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Sep 29 18:14:55 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23394 for Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine dennis higham wrote: Reed-As much as I would like to be contrary - I have to agree with you ....Ifyou're going to short-line nymph ..then a piece of 8' copper pipe wouldprobably work as well as a payne..as long as the tippet is 4x or better . [much clipped] hopefully these less fortunate fisherpeople will grow toappreciate the joys of dry fly with a 10-14' antique rod and silk line. Dennis, it really is fun, you know. Very relaxing. I've got a circa 1920's Granger, 91/2',5wt to restore this winter ...maybewe can trade @ Grayrock this spring? Yes, please bring it. Trading with you might be less time consuming thanwith Bogart, he and I went back and forth for three days (loving everyminute of it) before completing an intricate bit of bartering. P.S. Just got my hands on a new in the box Halford 7wt/DT silk line....will bring it to Greyrock next year and we'll play to find the "rightrod". I can't wait to see it. I will bring many old silks this coming year.I've been fishing a 6 wt triple taper (early WF) all season with never aproblem or need to dry it when coming off the stream (however, this hasa superb finish, not your typical Tung). Great line, I could never goback to plastic.Best regards,Reed from Canerods@aol.com Mon Sep 29 19:42:37 1997 Subject: FS - 5 1/4' Weakfish rod Fellows, This weekend a San Fernando tackle store held their semi-annual parkinglotswap meet. I ended up buying a mint (as in unfished) 5 1/4' Montague"Cruiser" (1 piece plus wood handle) - an ocean "weakfish" rod. Don't haveany idea what I'll do with it! Defects: "M" in Montague has a small chip missing, wood grip has a fewlightscrapes in the dark lacquer. Other than that - looks unfished. (varnish onthe guides untouched by a fishline) This is not a fly rod! Wrapped red with green intermediates. Flamed cane. Original rod sack withpartial paper label. No tube (none was included by Montague). See page #27 in the reproduction Montague catalog put out by Dick Spurr @Centennial Pub for more details. Any serious Montague collectors out there? I've left a message with LenCordella's (rod list man) ans. machine too - so please respond ASAP. Don BurnsCanerods@aol.com from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Sep 29 20:03:42 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA25683 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Don,There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When you considerthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel light bycomparison.A good quality rod (not an H-I) is generally lighter, since more powerfiber, better quality cane is used. Also, a wet fly rod usually weighsconsiderably less than a dry fly rod.I'll try and take the taper from my 10' Nichols, soon, and post it.Best regards,ReedP.S. - You might need to add some lead to your reel. Don DeLoach wrote: If you really want to try a LONG cane rod save yourself some grief andjust TRYfishing all day with a 9 foot H-I or Montague. They will work just finefornymphing but as has been sadi, how long your arm can take it is anothermatterentirely. You can get a decent 9 footer CHEAp from Codella or Spurr. ButIagree that an 8 footer will be much more pleasant to hold all day Don D. ------------------Original text From: TSmithwick@aol.com, on 9/29/97 2:00 PM:Does anyone outhere have a suggestion for a 9'0 3pc 5/6wt. >> Jon - from the vantage point of having met you and seen you cast, Isuspectyou would find such a rod a bit on the heavy side. I'd suggest a nicemoderate 8 footer like the Garrison 212. Why use a rod with the strength(and weight ) to cast 100+ feet all day when you will be fishing a shortlineand guiding drifts with an extended arm for hours at a time?Hey------- You aren't thinking of using a cane rod to sling lead on theSalmon River are you? from rcurry@jlc.net Mon Sep 29 20:15:58 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA25911 for Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines Chris,It's the truth! Don't forget the fine diameter tip that silk can produce. It makes itnecessary to use lighter leaders, but gives greater delicacy in layingthe line on the water.I will add one thing that I have found in using silk, occasionally youcan get a kink in the line from a twist on the reel. Avoid this, itsdamaging to the line. I remember when I was young, the recommendedpractice was to troll the line (no fly) behind a row boat for a while,until all possible twists worked themselves out.I'm sure glad I didn't give in to Russ who was pleading for the silk Inow use all the time. I have two more silks worked over for you to try next year. One is avery delicate taper 4wt.Best regards,ReedChris Bogart wrote: Dennis You need to work on your trade with Reed - I have completlyreconditionedthe line I got from him this year and it is wonderful - also don't they saythe same things about bamboo rods. Question is why spend $40 on plasticthatreally does not give the satisfaction or glee that silk will. The silklines Ihave canserve a lifetime - I have worn out plastic ones when they develop thosenastylittle cracks in the skin. Soooo you spend how much for a Payne Rod andthencheapen it with a cheap plastic line - shame on you Chris from WDHCJL@aol.com Mon Sep 29 20:29:03 1997 Subject: Dennis H. Sorry to take up space with this but.... Dennis could you e-mail me directat:wdhcjl@aol.com I have tried multiple times to contact you and am notsureif you got them.Doug from Canerods@aol.com Mon Sep 29 22:19:47 1997 Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present In a message dated 97-09-29 18:19:37 EDT, you write: 5. Will there be much difference between second hand, name quality rods, i.e. Hardy, Farlow, Fosters, Sharpe etc., and No Name rods? Try to find a rod YOU like. 6. Lastly, what is the best way to store a cane rod? Horizontal on a rack? Propped up in a corner? Vertically in a rack? hanging vertically from pegs? If on a rack - does anyone have a good pattern? Dry, in the tube and in a dark cool place. Never propped up in a corner.Vertically is the easiest - but some think hortz. is better. Sorry for the long list but I have no fishing friends who use cane, and it does not seem too popular with tackle shops. regards Simon Frobisher Tight lines, Don Burns from stpete@netten.net Mon Sep 29 22:20:16 1997 cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA21913 for; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:52:02 -0500 Subject: New guy wants to know two things I've been bitten badly and the fever is taking an ugly toll. Afteryears of using the "more modern, lighter, faster is better" graphiterods, I felt the urge to pull out the old 9'0" Edwards "Radio" mygrandfather gave me thirty years ago when I was 12. (He moved to the new"modern, lighter, less maintenance fiberglas "Wonderrod", which I alsohave now). It had alligatored and chipped varnish, but other than thatit was sound. I thought it heavy at first, but it cast a 5 wt line withease. In fact, the slower, slighter and "easier" I cast it, the betterand lighter it laid down the line. Many hours of work and 160+intermediate wraps later, the rod is back to fishing condition. Question,1. I just bought a Heddon Premier 8-1/2' 2F HDH?? sight unseen but insupposedly good condition. Will I be happy with this rod? Trout? 2. I've been pouring over the Garrison/Carmicheal book. I'm ready toplunge. Should I buy cane now and start to cure it, or will the bestsources have already checked and dried the culms properly? If not, howlong to dry or cure the culms on average? Thought I might get the caneand let it age while I gather and build the tools and equipment. Maybea rod a year from now? Rick from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 29 22:21:08 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:21:03 EDT Subject: Garrison 212 8.5 I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a Garrison taper somewhere and I am not that confident yet with Hexrod to work it out myself. I will however if no one can help. Thanks again all.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Sep 29 22:21:11 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:21:06 EDT Subject: Ferrules Has anyone had experience with ferrules from Anglers Workshop? I was thinking about ordering a few and was curious.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Sep 30 05:06:38 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA03341 for Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present 1. With an "old" ( 1950's ) rod, what should I be looking for thatmakes it, useable or unusable. Any tips? I don't mind carrying outreasonable repairs. Try looking at this url: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htm It's a goodsource If John Cooper is still on the list (John, you've been quiet), maybe he canhelp with UK source of rods. 2. What is Palakona cane? Is it construction type or type of canelike Tonkin? Impregnated cane? Guys? Palakona is a model name that Hardy used. 3. What happens to the action of a rod with age? If they have beenwell cared for, are they more fragile as they age? Might get a bit softer. Age itself should have no more deleterious effect than crackled varnish.The value of the rod should increase, however. 4. Are rods better varnished or oiled? I'll let Terry answer this one. Whatever, and then kept waxxed. (IMHO) Storage conditions and ambienthumidity may dictate you use the optimum finish to slow moisturepenetration. 5. Will there be much difference between second hand, name qualityrods, i.e. Hardy, Farlow, Fosters, Sharpe etc., and No Name rods? Try to find a rod YOU like. Amen. Even some of the no-names are good, by happenstance. 6. Lastly, what is the best way to store a cane rod? Horizontal ona rack? Propped up in a corner? Vertically in a rack? hangingvertically from pegs? If on a rack - does anyone have a goodpattern? Dry, in the tube and in a dark cool place. Never propped up in a corner.Vertically is the easiest - but some think hortz. is better. I vote for vertical. Sorry for the long list but I have no fishing friends who use cane,and it does not seem too popular with tackle shops. regards Simon Frobisher Tight lines, Don BurnsBest regards,Reed Curry from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Sep 30 07:12:32 1997 Subject: Re: Wraps over a scarf? In a message dated 9/29/97 10:13:39 PM, you wrote: Don - Option 2 is fine also, as long as you have used a good glue. from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Tue Sep 30 07:38:22 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA12585 for; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:41:10 GMT Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present ----------From: chapc@oslo.pgs.com Subject: Help - Beginner PresentDate: 29. september 1997 18:29 Dear Sirs/Madams, I hope you guys can help me, a Welshman with no access to a British cane rod site. 5. Will there be much difference between second hand, name quality rods, i.e. Hardy, Farlow, Fosters, Sharpe etc., and No Name rods? regards Simon Frobisher Simon You have probably been following the discussion about ageing of rods.Depending onpoints of wiev the following piece of information might be of use to You:In 1958House of Hardy changed their type of glue from "old-fashioned" glue, madeout ofbones and so on from animals, into using modern type of poly-whateverglues. If You happen to stumble over an old Hardy rod:The Number on the rod willtell,when it was made. Phone the Hardy Customer Dept. and ask them if theycanhelpYou with a date. I am sure they will help - they a a bunch of friendlyguys. Best regards Carsten Dept. and ask - They a very friendly and a Well of Wisdom from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Tue Sep 30 08:44:09 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:44:06 -0400 Subject: a test Please disregard from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Sep 30 09:15:37 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA24215; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:15:29 - 0400 Subject: Heat Treating - My theory To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believe thatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write a PlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be a scientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanationand probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rod makers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substance what Iwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is sticky andmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in a stripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey but becomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revert backto a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt when youplane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readilyobserved inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plenty ofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changed chemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has beenpermanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why you useprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a "dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a"gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short (wecan call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times, length,and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we only needto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treating isrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dry outcane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but I feelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot more aboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris from Bopep@aol.com Tue Sep 30 09:32:45 1997 Subject: Re: Ferrules Jon,The ones from Anger's I ordered are Bailey Woods' Super Swiss which arethebest I've found. R.W. Hoffhines from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Sep 30 09:43:53 1997 QAA20229 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:46:52+0100 Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present At 23:19 29/09/97 -0400, you wrote:In a message dated 97-09-29 18:19:37 EDT, you write: Date: 97-09-29 18:19:37 EDTFrom: chapc@oslo.pgs.comSender: owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Dear Sirs/Madams, I hope you guys can help me, a Welshman with no access to a British cane rod site. I'm taking up fly fishing after an absence of 20 years ( at 15 there's a lot to take your mind off fishing! ) and wish to use a cane rod rather than " a bit of plastic". As I can not afford to buy a new one, and along with building my hose don't have time to build one from scratch, I am looking to pick one up from a fishing auction in the near future. My questions are as follows:- Simon, First off - what part of Wales? I've been to Lamberis and the north only.Nice people there! 1. With an "old" ( 1950's ) rod, what should I be looking for that makes it, useable or unusable. Any tips? I don't mind carrying out reasonable repairs. Try looking at this url: http://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htm It's a goodsource If John Cooper is still on the list (John, you've been quiet), maybe he canhelp with UK source of rods. 2. What is Palakona cane? Is it construction type or type of cane like Tonkin? Impregnated cane? Guys? 3. What happens to the action of a rod with age? If they have been well cared for, are they more fragile as they age? Might get a bit softer. 4. Are rods better varnished or oiled? I'll let Terry answer this one. 5. Will there be much difference between second hand, name quality rods, i.e. Hardy, Farlow, Fosters, Sharpe etc., and No Name rods? Try to find a rod YOU like. 6. Lastly, what is the best way to store a cane rod? Horizontal on a rack? Propped up in a corner? Vertically in a rack? hanging vertically from pegs? If on a rack - does anyone have a good pattern? Dry, in the tube and in a dark cool place. Never propped up in a corner.Vertically is the easiest - but some think hortz. is better. Sorry for the long list but I have no fishing friends who use cane, and it does not seem too popular with tackle shops. regards Simon Frobisher Tight lines, Don Burns I'm still here Don. Apart from the thread on rod sets, which you willremember are a favourite concern/interest of mine, I've not been movedmuch restoration, so time is not hanging heavy. Simon, There are any number of good old fly rods sculling about in Wales - it'svery much a trouter's area, with all those semi spate rivers. Try a smallad. in one or more of the local papers, asking for a split-cane trout rod.I'm sure you'll get several replies. Expect to pay £25 - £50 for a usablerod. A lesser name rod that is still 'steely' despite obvious use will bebetter than a 'knackered out' Hardy. If you find two at the right price,then restore one - slowly, and use the other. Then, (of course) use therestored rod, and begin work on the second. If you're offered anythingoriginal that says Payne, Gillum, Garrison, or Leonard, then ring me, andI'll be able to give you an extra £5 profit on it. Palakona is simply Hardy's trade name for their own split-cane. It'snothingmore nor less than that - although it tends (being Hardy) to be well madecane. If you know so little about cane rods that you're asking questions such theabove, then you really should do some additional reading. That's not acritisism, simply a practical suggestion. Ask for a list of angling titlesat your local library, and request some of the older (say pre 1960) booksthat appear to be relevant. Also, send for Edward Barder's catalogue,whichwill tell you much of what you need to know. It's £2.00 Edward BarderHam HillLondon RoadNewburyBerks. Good luck. John Cooper John Cooper from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 30 09:45:45 1997 Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present In a message dated 97-09-30 05:59:45 EDT, you write: Simon: some say to also leave the cap off the tube so no moisture iscaptured inside. Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 30 09:47:00 1997 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Done withcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Sep 30 09:47:17 1997 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines In a message dated 97-09-30 03:14:47 EDT, you write: Reed - would you share your method of working over the silk lines?Many thanks,RTyree from Bopep@aol.com Tue Sep 30 09:50:56 1997 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper I noticed while reading my 1958 Paul Young catalog (reprint) that thereweretwomodels offered specifically for nymphing, a 9' and a 7'6". I wonder howtheseperformedand how many were made... according to Bob Summers my Boat Rod model-8' 7wt-is one of only about a dozen or two out there. There description of thesetwomodels therein makes a point to reiterate the para-15 as a great nympher. Rob Hoffhines from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 13:07:51 1997 with ESMTP id NAA12059 for ; Tue, 30 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id MJSHARAS; Tue,30 Sep 1997 13:07:18 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Yes, a nine to ten foot rod is just about ideal for nymphing, because ofexactly what you said--the need for line control. However a nine foot canerod,even if it's hollow built, would be no lighter than 5 ounces. This is HEAVYforthe nymph fisherman who has to lob casts all day and follow drifts withanextended arm. It is for this reason that graphite is ideally suited tonymphing, but it makes it too easy and for me that takes the fun out of it!These days a nine-foot graphite rod is no more than 3 1/2 ounces whichmakesnymphing all day a breeze. This is why I suggested an eight foot cane rodas acompromise. It isn't quite as long but eight feet is long enough for anexperienced fisherman (who uses cane that isn't experienced?!) to nymphwell--and comfortably--all day long, since it's only 4 - 4 1/2 ounces. In short, here are some conclusions, o most flyfishermen are nymph fishermen, since nymph fishermen catchmore andlarger trout more consistently o A necessary condition of being asuccessfulnymph fisherman, withoput taking into account skill or experience, is alongrod to more easily acheive line control o graphite is perfectly suited to the building of long fly rods (9' and up)because they can be made so lighto graphite rods are mass produced, and are 1/2 to 1/4 the price of canerodswhich aren't nearly as light in the longer lengths As for hollow-building, I don't think any method has yet been developedthattakes off enough weight to really make a 9 or 10 foot rod comfortable fornymphing. Believe me, for those of you who don't nymph fish, a three-ouncegraphite is a LOT more comfortable to fish all day than a 5 1/2 ouncebamboo. ------------------Original text In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Done withcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Sep 30 13:48:24 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-09-30 10:18:19 EDT, you write: So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but I feelthat I am getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot moreaboutthe results than using moisture only. Good theory! There has to be more than just moisture removal happeningwhen bamboo is heat treated. When I use my method of heat treating(heat gunning the pith side), when I get to an end I can see a lot of steamand liquid escaping out of the end grain. As I continue to heat the liquidturns black and hardens. It has to be doing the same thing inside thebamboo. I also think Tom Smithwick's idea of intercellular andintracellularmoisture has a lot of merit also. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Sep 30 13:49:11 1997 Subject: Re: Polyurethane glue In a message dated 97-09-26 13:50:16 EDT, you write: I am thinking about using Elmer's polyurethane glue for ferrules, reelseats,and cork. However, the label says that it needs moisture to catalyze the cure(i.e., wet the parts to be glued). Is this OK for cane rods? Does anyonehave experience with this stuff? Thanks. I didn't see anyone else answering this question, so I guess I'll jumpin. I haven't used the Elmer's polyurethane glue, but I have used another brand, Excel polyurethane glue. I haven't had any problems regarding the moisture content not catalyzing the glue due to theambient humidity being high enough to do it. I live in southern Calif.where the normal humidity is 40 to 50 per cent. Unless you live ina climate that has relative humidty below 20 or 30 percent the gluewill harden without wetting the bamboo. Darryl Hayashida from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 13:50:16 1997 with ESMTP id NAA28838 for ; Tue, 30 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id ARSYBPBS; Tue,30 Sep 1997 13:49:41 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Help - Beginner Present Hang them tips up in their bags from a cuphook on the wall of your shop orinterior closet (climate controlled a must!). Don D. ------------------Original text In a message dated 97-09-30 05:59:45 EDT, you write: Simon: some say to also leave the cap off the tube so no moisture iscaptured inside. Regards,Richard from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 30 15:25:36 1997 (205.236.249.69) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believe thatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write a PlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanationand probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substance whatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is sticky andmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in a stripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revert back to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt when you plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readilyobserved inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plenty ofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has beenpermanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a"gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short (we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times, length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treatingisrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dry out cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot more aboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch to sugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains an emzymecapable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if Ileave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts backto its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature is contolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cooked forlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 15:39:08 1997 with ESMTP id PAA12977 for ; Tue, 30 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id VRUNBJBB; Tue,30 Sep 1997 15:38:34 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Terry What do you mean the cane polymerizes after more than an hour at 375 F? Dr. Don ------------------Original text Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believe thatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write a PlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanationand probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substance whatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is sticky andmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in a stripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revert back to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt when you plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readilyobserved inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plenty ofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has beenpermanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a"gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short (we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times, length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treatingisrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dry out cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot more aboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch to sugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains an emzymecapable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if Ileave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts backto its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature is contolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cooked forlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 30 15:48:57 1997 (205.236.249.69) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel lightbycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree Richard,North Americans do no generally need long rods, rather than cast to thefish they prefer to wade out and drop it under the fishes nose. The British tend to fish from the bank so have to use a longer rod tokeep more line in the air.This is an observation and not a criticism.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 30 15:57:57 1997 (205.236.249.69) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Don DeLoach wrote: Terry What do you mean the cane polymerizes after more than an hour at 375F? Dr. Don ------------------Original text From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:24 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believethatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write aPlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanation and probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substancewhatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is stickyandmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in astripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revertback to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt whenyou plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readily observed inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plentyofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has been permanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a "gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short(we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times,length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treating isrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dryout cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot moreaboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch tosugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains an emzyme capable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if I leave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts back to its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature iscontolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cookedforlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry Don,I would never say that cane polymerizes, because it never has for me,not in 15 years.It does for Chris and Sir though from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 16:22:24 1997 with ESMTP id QAA23516 for ; Tue, 30 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id PFVVAACO; Tue,30 Sep 1997 16:21:50 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:56 PM:Don DeLoach wrote: Terry What do you mean the cane polymerizes after more than an hour at 375F? Dr. Don ------------------Original text From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:24 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believethatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write aPlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanation and probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substancewhatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is stickyandmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in astripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revertback to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt whenyou plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readily observed inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plentyofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has been permanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a "gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short(we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times,length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treating isrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dryout cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot moreaboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch tosugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains anemzyme capable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if I leave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts back to its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature iscontolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cookedforlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry Don,I would never say that cane polymerizes, because it never has for me,not in 15 years.It does for Chris and Sir though Terry, sorry--I went back and read your post and noticed that you said itNEVERpolymerizes, even if you cook it OVER an hour at 375. I was just wonderingthough if you could describe what polymerization is. Is this what somehavedescribed to have happened to cane when they have left it the oven toolong attoo high a temp eg, it turns to carbon. though I spent 5 1/2 years in college studying psychology. 5 1/2 years andonlya B.S.! But I rather like being called a psychiatrist, just as Darryl didn'tmind being Knighted. Thanks!Dr. Don from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 16:24:34 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28833 for ; Tue, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id EPVYAAAR; Tue,30 Sep 1997 16:24:00 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:48 PM:Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel lightbycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree Richard,North Americans do no generally need long rods, rather than cast to thefish they prefer to wade out and drop it under the fishes nose. The British tend to fish from the bank so have to use a longer rod tokeep more line in the air.This is an observation and not a criticism.Terry It still helps to have a longer rod, though your point is valid. Some ofthefish I see in the famous tailwaters see so many anglers that they arealmosttame! Dr. Don from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Sep 30 16:42:05 1997 with ESMTP id QAA28263 for ; Tue, 30 Sep dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id ARVQBGBP; Tue,30 Sep 1997 16:41:31 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Powell Rod Co. Guys, investment company. I was wondering what this will mean for their caneroddept. Does anyone know who is their head rodmaker and are their newercane rodsany good? I didn't even know they still offered cane rods till I visited theweb site last month. Dr. Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 30 17:36:36 1997 (205.236.248.135) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Don DeLoach wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:56 PM:Don DeLoach wrote: Terry What do you mean the cane polymerizes after more than an hour at375F? Dr. Don ------------------Original textt Terry, sorry--I went back and read your post and noticed that you saidit NEVERpolymerizes, even if you cook it OVER an hour at 375. I was justwonderingthough if you could describe what polymerization is. Is this what somehavedescribed to have happened to cane when they have left it the oven toolong attoo high a temp eg, it turns to carbon. psychiatrist,though I spent 5 1/2 years in college studying psychology. 5 1/2 yearsand onlya B.S.! But I rather like being called a psychiatrist, just as Darryldidn'tmind being Knighted. Thanks!Dr. Don Don, Whan I talk of polymerization I mean a cross link polymerization, anirreverible chemical change as in in epoxy or phenolformaldehydeadhesives. I think this is what Sir and Chris believe happens to canewhen you heat it .Keep trying Don you are going to catch me out one ofthses days but not this time .Terry from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Tue Sep 30 17:54:08 1997 XAA23538 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:57:36+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re[2]: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Re the "long Rod" debate. I can't see that a 9' cane rod can be "too much" to fish the day through with. The likes of Hugh Falkus fished, and proposed the universal acceptance of ( for sea-trout fishing ) nothing less than 10' and preferably longer. The rods he fished with were mostly cane. In the UK 9' is not a long rod, and I don't think our wrists are unnaturally strong. Simon from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 30 17:58:32 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29804 for Subject: Re: Ferrules Jon Lintvet wrote: Has anyone had experience with ferrules from Anglers Workshop? I wasthinking about ordering a few and was curious.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 Yes they are the Super Z ferrule and pre fit. a bit more expensive Ithink though, but good none the less. I buy from them a lot.-- Martin Jensen from Canerods@aol.com Tue Sep 30 18:10:41 1997 Subject: Re: Powell Rod Co. In a message dated 97-09-30 17:44:01 EDT, you write: That's a real darn shame! Don Burns from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Sep 30 18:17:01 1997 TAA11833 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:16:58 Subject: Bobbers and leaders It's heartwarming to see cane rodmaker's negative responses to bobbersandsplit shot for nymph fishing. To me, bobbers go with forked sticks, whichmay be relaxing but is not fly casting.Harvey leaders are hard to beat, but those "Lucky Dog' leaders fromFeathercraft are worth a shot.I'm off to Montana for 3 weeks of collecting CDC and partridge hackles.Nofly rods would you believe? Please don't load up the list with too manypersonal messages. 600 "deletes" would be hard to handle. Thanks. Bill from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Sep 30 18:18:47 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA18877 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Rich,I suppose hollow-building would lighten the rod, but again I don'tconsider a few ounces, held near the body and counter-balanced by aweighted reel to give most of the weight in the hand (got to take abreath) all that onerous.Best regards,ReedFallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When you considerthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel light bycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Sep 30 18:18:51 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA18881 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Don,See below:Don DeLoach wrote: Yes, a nine to ten foot rod is just about ideal for nymphing, because ofexactly what you said--the need for line control. However a nine footcane rod,even if it's hollow built, would be no lighter than 5 ounces. This isHEAVY forthe nymph fisherman who has to lob casts all day and follow drifts withanextended arm. If you use a 9' or 10' rod, you don't need to extend your arm. You keepthe arm close to your body, holding the rod comfortably, and with aweighted (if necessary) reel that counterbalances the rod, you have avery relaxing combination. Another advantage of the long rod is the increased leverage it gives thefish. Of course, smallmoths don't need this advantage. It is for this reason that graphite is ideally suited tonymphing, but it makes it too easy and for me that takes the fun out ofit!These days a nine-foot graphite rod is no more than 3 1/2 ounces whichmakesnymphing all day a breeze. Does 1.5 oz., most of it in the butt, make all that much difference,really? This is why I suggested an eight foot cane rod as acompromise. It isn't quite as long but eight feet is long enough for anexperienced fisherman (who uses cane that isn't experienced?!) to nymphwell--and comfortably--all day long, since it's only 4 - 4 1/2 ounces. In short, here are some conclusions,o most flyfishermen are nymph fishermen, since nymph fishermen catchmore andlarger trout more consistently o Don, I can't let that (bait) pass. In some states, (regrettably as of1994, not N.H.) the people you refer to are not flyfishermen because bysome State laws, if weight is applied to the line (sometimes, fly) it isNOT fly fishing. Most of the people you refer to would be better offwith an ultra-light spinning outfit (with which I find nothing wrong) asit is better and safer for their purposes. A necessary condition of being a successfulnymph fisherman, withoput taking into account skill or experience, is alongrod to more easily acheive line controlo graphite is perfectly suited to the building of long fly rods (9' and up)because they can be made so light If lightness, rather than casting ease, delicacy, etc., is your solecriteria, than the argument applies to all fly rods. o graphite rods are mass produced, and are 1/2 to 1/4 the price of canerodswhich aren't nearly as light in the longer lengths And worth every (rapidly devaluing) penny, I'm sure.But if I buy a Bogart cane rod today, I know that in a few years time itwill begin to increase in value, and after Chris dies, much more....(evil chuckle). As for hollow-building, I don't think any method has yet been developedthattakes off enough weight to really make a 9 or 10 foot rod comfortablefornymphing. Believe me, for those of you who don't nymph fish, a three-ouncegraphite is a LOT more comfortable to fish all day than a 5 1/2 ouncebamboo. Don, all I can say is that you should come fish with me and I'll let youtry a balanced outfit. (Not great or expensive, just balanced.)Best regards,Reed ------------------Original text From: Fallcreek9@aol.com, on 9/30/97 12:21 PM:In a message dated 97-09- 30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When you considerthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel light bycomparison. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Sep 30 18:19:20 1997 Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:19:11 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel lightbycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree Richard,North Americans do no generally need long rods, rather than cast to thefish they prefer to wade out and drop it under the fishes nose. The British tend to fish from the bank so have to use a longer rod tokeep more line in the air.This is an observation and not a criticism.Terry I tend to think this is true. Longer rods have been the norm here and I think it's because we have a lot of fishing in fairly steep banked rivers and creeks and/or in the case of fishing for Browns on lakes in Tasmania rises can be few and far between and you need to belt a line out long and quick and often into a stiff breeze.I believe that's the reason bamboo rods haven't regained the following here as in the US and Canada as short rods aren't as useful in as many situations and nobody wants a heavy one. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Sep 30 18:27:51 1997 Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:27:42 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Re[2]: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper On Wed, 30 Sep 1997 chapc@oslo.pgs.com wrote: Re the "long Rod" debate. I can't see that a 9' cane rod can be "too much" to fish the day through with. The likes of Hugh Falkus fished, and proposed the universal acceptance of ( for sea-trout fishing ) nothing less than 10' and preferably longer. The rods he fished with were mostly cane. In the UK 9' is not a long rod, and I don't think our wrists are unnaturally strong. Simon To each his own. My son has a 7' #4 from WC's book (the one that had quite a lot of praise lately) and he hates fishing with me because I keep wanting to swap rods all the time. The rod I mostly use is an 8' rod as I mostly nymph. Even though the rod is nicely balanced it's hard to beat using the shorter rod for comfort and it casts a line about as far. Line control is harder though and it's pretty exciting when you hook a big one. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 30 18:39:26 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01765 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Don DeLoach wrote: Yes, a nine to ten foot rod is just about ideal for nymphing, because ofexactly what you said--the need for line control. However a nine footcane rod,even if it's hollow built, would be no lighter than 5 ounces. This isHEAVY forthe nymph fisherman who has to lob casts all day and follow drifts withanextended arm. It is for this reason that graphite is ideally suited tonymphing, but it makes it too easy and for me that takes the fun out ofit!These days a nine-foot graphite rod is no more than 3 1/2 ounces whichmakesnymphing all day a breeze. This is why I suggested an eight foot cane rodas acompromise. It isn't quite as long but eight feet is long enough for anexperienced fisherman (who uses cane that isn't experienced?!) to nymphwell--and comfortably--all day long, since it's only 4 - 4 1/2 ounces. In short, here are some conclusions,o most flyfishermen are nymph fishermen, since nymph fishermen catchmore andlarger trout more consistently o A necessary condition of being asuccessfulnymph fisherman, withoput taking into account skill or experience, is alongrod to more easily acheive line controlo graphite is perfectly suited to the building of long fly rods (9' and up)because they can be made so lighto graphite rods are mass produced, and are 1/2 to 1/4 the price of canerodswhich aren't nearly as light in the longer lengths As for hollow-building, I don't think any method has yet been developedthattakes off enough weight to really make a 9 or 10 foot rod comfortablefornymphing. Believe me, for those of you who don't nymph fish, a three-ouncegraphite is a LOT more comfortable to fish all day than a 5 1/2 ouncebamboo. ------------------Original text From: Fallcreek9@aol.com, on 9/30/97 12:21 PM:In a message dated 97-09- 30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When you considerthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel light bycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree I just built an 8.5 ft hollow rod that weighs 3.5 oz. This is on apostage scale so I suppose the weight could be off some. I have used it heavy. This rod is my personal limit as far as long rods go but it is avery enjoyable rod to fish with a WF 5 line on it.-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Tue Sep 30 18:51:52 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02316 for Subject: Re: Powell Rod Co. Don DeLoach wrote: Guys, investment company. I was wondering what this will mean for their caneroddept. Does anyone know who is their head rodmaker and are their newercane rodsany good? I didn't even know they still offered cane rods till I visitedtheweb site last month. Dr. Don Yes, I have heard the same thing. In fact I just read that you can nowbuy a bamboo rod from them and if you don't use it untill you are 65years or older, you don't have to pay taxes on the rod purchase! -- Martin Jensen from rmoon@dns.ida.net Tue Sep 30 20:42:10 1997 Subject: Re: Powell Rod Co. Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 17:44:01 EDT, you write: Date: 97-09-30 17:44:01 EDTFrom: d-deloach1@ti.com (Don DeLoach)Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Guys, theinvestment company. I was wondering what this will mean for theircane roddept. Does anyone know who is their head rodmaker and are their newercanerodsany good? I didn't even know they still offered cane rods till Ivisited theweb site last month. Dr. Don >> That's a real darn shame! Don Burns I talked to Press Powell last week at Denver. He and Walton haverecombined their operation, and I would guess you might say Walton isnow head bamboo rod maker Ralph Moon from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Sep 30 23:36:52 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-09-30 16:29:10 EDT, you write: I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends. Not exactly what I said. I said steam and liquid escape from the endgrain, and as you continue to heat it the liquid turns black andhardens.Try flaming a culm. You can't miss it when you get near the ends. Darryl Hayashida