from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Wed Oct 1 05:03:42 1997 ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:05:40 +1200 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper At 07:19 AM 1/10/97 +0800, you wrote:On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol, I tend to think this is true. Longer rods have been the norm here and I think it's because we have a lot of fishing in fairly steep banked rivers and creeks and/or in the case of fishing for Browns on lakes in Tasmania rises can be few and far between and you need to belt a line out long and quick and often into a stiff breeze.I believe that's the reason bamboo rods haven't regained the following here as in the US and Canada as short rods aren't as useful in as many situations and nobody wants a heavy one. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ Tony , It is very much the same in New Zealand with many streams also beingtreelined and the extra foot or two in the rod making a lot of difference inline control , including backcast . A short rod is 8 foot , usual is 8 1/2to 9 foot for most fishing and 10 foot not uncommon in some of the biggerrivers where they tend to use weight 8+ lines to punch into wind . I must say I find the USA focus on short (?) light weight rods somewhatunusual given that i cannot recall seeing a weight 3 rod for sale in NZ andonly once a weight 4 rod . Maybe us recent colonials are a little tougher/stronger in the arm then theYanks , Tony ? Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Oct 1 06:45:47 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA29381; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:45:44 -0400 Subject: Heat Treating - Q&A Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the following question: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and water boilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or the desireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane that needs to occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture -hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case or two. Chris from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Oct 1 06:55:03 1997 Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:54:42 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the following question: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and water boilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or the desireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane that needsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture -hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case or two. Chris I think you're both right. Not enough heat wont work, moisture after the heat treating seems to affect the cane. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Oct 1 07:12:47 1997 Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:12:40 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Ian Kearney wrote: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol, I tend to think this is true. Longer rods have been the norm here and I think it's because we have a lot of fishing in fairly steep banked rivers and creeks and/or in the case of fishing for Browns on lakes inTasmania rises can be few and far between and you need to belt a line out longand quick and often into a stiff breeze.I believe that's the reason bamboo rods haven't regained the following here as in the US and Canada as short rods aren't as useful in as many situations and nobody wants a heavy one. Tony Tony , It is very much the same in New Zealand with many streams also beingtreelined and the extra foot or two in the rod making a lot of difference inline control , including backcast . A short rod is 8 foot , usual is 8 1/2to 9 foot for most fishing and 10 foot not uncommon in some of thebiggerrivers where they tend to use weight 8+ lines to punch into wind . I must say I find the USA focus on short (?) light weight rods somewhatunusual given that i cannot recall seeing a weight 3 rod for sale in NZandonly once a weight 4 rod . Maybe us recent colonials are a little tougher/stronger in the arm thentheYanks , Tony ? There's no doubting the size of fish in NZ is on the whole much bigger than here including Tas. Add to that the volume and speed of water you need to contend with especially when you add the weight and fight of a decent fish on the end of the line you realy need a rod with power. However I think the smaller light rods are great to use and cane allows short rods that have a nice action. If these rods are matched to the streams IMHO you have the very best combination. I'm thinking of streams like Jap Creek and the Tiki Tiki to name two of the thousands with that sensational dry and sight nymph fishing.Just the same, next time I'm in NZ I'll have to try my Paul Young Texas General taper rod on some steelhead and see how things go when one does an F-18 impersonation, the last time I fished for those I was "destined to view the spool" as the saying goes :-)#3 and #4 rods are reasonably common here as they are ideal for the streams around Victoria and the Snowy Mountains. Re. the comment about us colonials having greater arm strength, well I'm too polite to say. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Oct 1 08:28:47 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA30954 for ;Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:28:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Terry, As a chemist I can assure you that the sugar is there, since all celluloseis, is a series of sugars linked together. I think that these guys may beheating things more aggressively than you do and may actually be breakingdown some of the cellulosic fibers. They may get "stiffer" bamboo fromheat treating since some of the HO- (hydroxyl) groups on the cellulosefibers should decompose with HO- groups on other fibers to givecrosslinking -O- (oxide) groups and water. I don't know about "harder".This is all way too simple since it only considers cellulose. In livingsystems such as plant cells there are many other components. It is aninteresting thread, but I believe everyone here is attempting todrastically oversimplify what happens with heat treating bamboo,especially those who flame the inside of the culm. Mark in LA On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believe thatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write a PlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanationand probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substance whatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is sticky andmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in a stripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revert back to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt when you plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readilyobserved inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plenty ofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has beenpermanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a"gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short (we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times, length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treatingisrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dry out cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot more aboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch to sugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains an emzymecapable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if Ileave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts backto its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature iscontolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cooked forlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Oct 1 08:32:38 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA30984 for ;Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:32:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Terry, I misread your message, previously, you are right, you can't getsugar from cellulose from heating. Extremely aggressive heating will giveyou carbon and water. I still really think these guys may be crosslinkingthe cellulose fibers, to get stiffer. One thing that they might notrealize, is that stiffer by crosslinking also usually means more brittle.There has to be a point of overdoing it. Mark in LA On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Terry What do you mean the cane polymerizes after more than an hour at 375F? Dr. Don ------------------Original text From: Terence Ackland , on 9/30/97 4:24 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: To whom it may concern- I been following the discourses on heat treating and believe thatthose who look for the answer of why we heat treat in moisture arebarking up the wrong tree (culm?). I have given the subject muchthought and have come up with my own theory that makes moresense that the moisture boys story. I am starting to write a PlaningForm article that will be complete but let me throw the thumb nailversion out and see what kind of controversy I can stir up. But first the disclaimer: This article is not meant to be ascientificresearchpaper and the use of any term is only for the purpose of explanationand probably is misused. Other than that it is intended for rodmakers. Bogart's Theory on Why we Heat Treat Bamboo. The basic premise is that within bamboo there is a substance whatIwillcall resin. This resin naturally is a "gum". This gum is sticky andmakes itdifficult to split and plane strips and reduces the spring in a stripwhen itis flexed. When this resin is heated above 300 degrees it"crystallizes" (changeschemically). The resin crystals are now not sticky and gooey butbecomefairly inert. Whencooled, the resin remains in its crystal form and does not revert back to a gum - the changeis permanent (even if you add water). The change can be felt when you plane a stripand flex a strip. This behavior caused by "cooking" the bamboo can also be readilyobserved inthe cooking of common foods - rice and potatoes. Both have plenty ofcomplexcarbohydrates which exist as starch. When first cooked they becomesticky howeverif you cool the rice or potatoes the starch has been changedchemicallyinto sugars.If you cook them again they will not stick since the starch has beenpermanentlychanged. This is one of the secrets for fried rice and for why youuseprecooked/ leftover potatoes for fried potatoes. I also feel that heat treating is not to be confused to kilndrying. I feel that thecane I have stored in my barn's attic for the past 4-5 years is a"dry"as I need itand it is in a stable form. What is still present is the resin in a"gum" form. Thelength of time needed to heat and change the resin is fairly short (we can call thisthe X factor) - that is why we have such a diversity in times, length, and heatingmethods utilized - all with satisfactory results. Because we onlyneedto reachthe temp required for this process to occur. Extended heat treatingisrequiredonly for colorization of the cane itself. If someone wants to dry out cane thenany warm room will do for a few days. So there you have it in a nutshell my "half baked" theory but Ifeelthat Iam getting a lot closer to the truth and can explain a lot more aboutthe results thanusing moisture only. Chris Chris, from my days of beer making, it is not posible to change starch to sugar converts the starch to simple sugars. Malted barley contains an emzymecapable of converting starch to sugar. Bamboo sure smell good when you cook it , but there is not any sugarthere and nothing changes. I cook my cane for an hour at 375f and if Ileave it in damp environment it picks up the moisture and reverts backto its soft state. I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends.Why am I not experiencing what you guy get? My temperature iscontolledwith a proportional controller that is very accurate. I have cooked forlonger and have not found that the cane polymerizes All lignin cellulose products including wood softens with theapplication of heat or water.I am sorry I cannot agree with you guys.Terry from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Oct 1 09:00:41 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: [Fwd: Warning!!!] (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:53:56 -0500 Organization: Franklin State Bank amskier@fsbnet.com, missions@fsbnet.com, baskinhs@fsbnet.com,loulady@fsbnet.com, bwalker@fsbnet.com, billyj@fsbnet.com,blackmon@fsbnet.com, brobel@fsbnet.com, chapman@fsbnet.com,brent@fsbnet.com, hotbrown@fsbnet.com, bmc@fsbnet.com,bunnymc@fsbnet.com, hannah@fsbnet.com, cboyd80@fsbnet.com,cheek@fsbnet.com, artzyldy@fsbnet.com, rev&bev@fsbnet.com,adams@fsbnet.com, doodle@fsbnet.com, sparks@fsbnet.com,how@fsbnet.com, crowvlhs@fsbnet.com, chsengl@fsbnet.com,dcr@fsbnet.com, danchase@fsbnet.com, gilmore@fsbnet.com,davidgmc@fsbnet.com, rockhold@fsbnet.com, davidr@fsbnet.com,jdwood@fsbnet.com, debopoin@fsbnet.com, margiek@fsbnet.com,goodman@fsbnet.com, jstrong@fsbnet.com, dleller@fsbnet.com,cummins@fsbnet.com, danielle@fsbnet.com, wblanche@fsbnet.com,ebb@fsbnet.com, farmers@fsbnet.com, landbank@fsbnet.com,fbcwin@fsbnet.com, flo@fsbnet.com, fortnhs@fsbnet.com,foxfaye@fsbnet.com, frances@fsbnet.com, frankie@fsbnet.com,dkiper@fsbnet.com, fmcbooth@fsbnet.com, fpaems@fsbnet.com,fppj@fsbnet.com, fpsb@fsbnet.com, service@fsbnet.com,thehuffs@fsbnet.com, boutwell@fsbnet.com, clay@fsbnet.com,hilbun1@fsbnet.com, gilberth@fsbnet.com, spence@fsbnet.com,kennedy@fsbnet.com, gsteph@fsbnet.com, g&jtrak@fsbnet.com,theearls@fsbnet.com, hrussell@fsbnet.com, hhlc@fsbnet.com,jhammons@fsbnet.com, jbennett@fsbnet.com, allicat@fsbnet.com,jcoleman@fsbnet.com, jthomas@fsbnet.com, jhorne@fsbnet.com,jec@fsbnet.com, hemphill@fsbnet.com, driller@fsbnet.com,jboothe@fsbnet.com, jcarrol@fsbnet.com, kinnison@fsbnet.com,ktorrey@fsbnet.com, broadway@fsbnet.com, dustin@fsbnet.com,keithw@fsbnet.com, keller@fsbnet.com, vlad@fsbnet.com,circleg@fsbnet.com, lkclark@fsbnet.com, herlevic@fsbnet.com,lduvall@fsbnet.com, haralson@fsbnet.com, gravelle@fsbnet.com,eldala@fsbnet.com, lhensley@fsbnet.com, mmccarty@fsbnet.com,hassell@fsbnet.com, marnold@fsbnet.com, margie@fsbnet.com,margrett@fsbnet.com, marvin@fsbnet.com, scorpio@fsbnet.com,mws@fsbnet.com, therites@fsbnet.com, brownlee@fsbnet.com,mekramer@fsbnet.com, deadcell@fsbnet.com, bigpig@fsbnet.com,noble1@fsbnet.com, ojhs@fsbnet.com, chase@fsbnet.com,pennymay@fsbnet.com, vishal@fsbnet.com, jtpa@fsbnet.com,puddin@fsbnet.com, young@fsbnet.com, johnston@fsbnet.com,rcole@fsbnet.com, rtw@fsbnet.com, riser@fsbnet.com,olhomstd@fsbnet.com, rjw@fsbnet.com, rme1157@fsbnet.com,relrod@fsbnet.com, rons@fsbnet.com, jtemple@fsbnet.com,russell@fsbnet.com, andrea@fsbnet.com, scottmtr@fsbnet.com,trak@fsbnet.com, belinda@fsbnet.com, sonny@fsbnet.com,sevans@fsbnet.com, sarledge@fsbnet.com, slkemp1@fsbnet.com,volante1@fsbnet.com, tyler@fsbnet.com, tjordan@fsbnet.com,temple@fsbnet.com, tshirley@fsbnet.com, tstep@fsbnet.com,thwaters@fsbnet.com, t&ehat@fsbnet.com, tiffany@fsbnet.com,tommy@fsbnet.com, kc5rch@fsbnet.com, tcatfish@fsbnet.com,vtbevill@fsbnet.com, msboothe@fsbnet.com, ward3hs@fsbnet.com,wgilmore@fsbnet.com, wmfletch@fsbnet.com, ceskew@fsbnet.com,winnsbhs@fsbnet.com, whsserc@fsbnet.com, wjhs@fsbnet.com,wue@fsbnet.com, wisnerhs@fsbnet.com, catfish@fsbnet.comSubject: Warning!!! Dear subscribers, Thois warning message was sent to me and I am forwarding it on to you your benefit. WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOTopen it!It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out toasmany people you can.......this is a new virus and not many peopleknowabout it!This information was received this morning from IBM, please share itwith anyone that might access the Internet. Also, If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! pleasedeleteit WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users -there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through ane-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!". DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANYMESSAGEENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!!This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you arenterested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is toolate. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the bootsector of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It isaself-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it willAUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address ispresentin YOUR mailbox! This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holdsthepotential to DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your inbox, and who's mail is in their in box and so on. If this viruskeepsgetting passed, it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE tocomputer networks worldwide!!!!Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as yousee it! And pass this message along to all of your friends, relativesand the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists which youareon so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!!Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped.PASSTHIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!! There is a new virus goingarround in the last couple of days!!! all your on-line friendsA.S.A.P.Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!!THANKS....ERIK THORNEDIGITAL SECURITY CONTROLS INC. from dryfly@erols.com Wed Oct 1 10:29:46 1997 Subject: Binders Does anyone have any recommendations on binders? I would rather buy onethan build one. I know Wayne C. was hoping to sell a binder kit, butthe last time I talked to him, they weren't yet available. I'm going tocall and check out the Olsen made Garrioson binders, but I was wonderingwhat else might be available? Any comments on the possibilities wouldbe greatly appreciated. Thanks. from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Oct 1 10:32:57 1997 with ESMTP id KAA12876 for ; Wed, 1 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id JRPHBVAH; Wed,1 Oct 1997 10:32:21 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) boundary="BeyondBoundary_1_Wed_Oct_01_10:32:21_1997__29" Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper --BeyondBoundary_1_Wed_Oct_01_10:32:21_1997__29 Reed, my comments in bold...From: "Reed F. Curry" , on 9/30/97 7:18 PM:Don,See below:Don DeLoach wrote: Yes, a nine to ten foot rod is just about ideal for nymphing, because ofexactly what you said--the need for line control. However a nine footcane rod,even if it's hollow built, would be no lighter than 5 ounces. This is HEAVY forthe nymph fisherman who has to lob casts all day and follow driftswith anextended arm. If you use a 9' or 10' rod, you don't need to extend your arm. I contendthat it always helps to extend your arm. But another issue is mending.Constantly flipping over a five or six ounce rod WILL get tiresome. You keepthe arm close to your body, holding the rod comfortably, and with aweighted (if necessary) reel that counterbalances the rod, you have avery relaxing combination. Another advantage of the long rod is the increased leverage it gives thefish. Of course, smallmoths don't need this advantage. It is for this reason that graphite is ideally suited tonymphing, but it makes it too easy and for me that takes the fun out of it!These days a nine-foot graphite rod is no more than 3 1/2 ounceswhich makesnymphing all day a breeze. Does 1.5 oz., most of it in the butt, make all that much difference,really? Yes, because it requires that much heavier of a reel to balanceoutthe whole outfit. This is why I suggested an eight foot cane rod as acompromise. It isn't quite as long but eight feet is long enough for anexperienced fisherman (who uses cane that isn't experienced?!) tonymphwell--and comfortably--all day long, since it's only 4 - 4 1/2 ounces. In short, here are some conclusions,o most flyfishermen are nymph fishermen, since nymph fishermencatch more andlarger trout more consistently o Don, I can't let that (bait) pass. In some states, (regrettably as of1994, not N.H.) the people you refer to are not flyfishermen because bysome State laws, if weight is applied to the line (sometimes, fly) it isNOT fly fishing. Wow. I've always agreed with this thinking, which iswhy Imuch prefer upstream nymphing with very lightly weighted nymphs only.Slinginglead really isn't flyfishing because by definition fly fishing is using aweighted line to throw a relatively weightless leader and fly. But thistype oflogic and law would never pass in Texas, New Mexico, Arkansas, orOklahomawhere I fish because nymph fishing is so prevalent. Where is this law ineffect? I would love to visit these states and only have to compete withdryfly fishermen for stream space! Most of the people you refer to would be better offwith an ultra-light spinning outfit (with which I find nothing wrong) asit is better and safer for their purposes. I agree. A necessary condition of being a successfulnymph fisherman, withoput taking into account skill or experience, isa longrod to more easily acheive line controlo graphite is perfectly suited to the building of long fly rods (9' and up)because they can be made so light If lightness, rather than casting ease, delicacy, etc., is your solecriteria, than the argument applies to all fly rods. Correct. Lightness ISimportant in all fly rods. Thats why most of us cane guys build rods in theshorter lengths- -they're musch lighter. But lightness increases rapidlywithlength, unfortunately. This is important to consider for those of us whoneedlonger rods for, say, nymphing. As for casting ease and delicacy, that isanother issue entirely. Most nyphing situations don't require delicacysincethe fish are on the bottom. But obviously delicacy is hugely importantwhencasting a #22 midge to spooky cutthroats on a shallow, gin clear creek.This iswhere a cane rod really shines, as we all know. But it's a far differentsituation than big river nymphing in the states I mentioned earlier. o graphite rods are mass produced, and are 1/2 to 1/4 the price ofcane rodswhich aren't nearly as light in the longer lengths And worth every (rapidly devaluing) penny, I'm sure.But if I buy a Bogart cane rod today, I know that in a few years time itwill begin to increase in value, and after Chris dies, much more....(evil chuckle). I am quite aware of this, Reed. And I'm not trying to champion graphiterods.Just trying to point out that for their weight, they are remarkable stiffandlight in the longer lengths, which makes them excellent nymphing tools.Notmuch fun though, that is why I hardly use mine anymore. As for hollow-building, I don't think any method has yet beendeveloped thattakes off enough weight to really make a 9 or 10 foot rod comfortablefornymphing. Believe me, for those of you who don't nymph fish, a three-ouncegraphite is a LOT more comfortable to fish all day than a 5 1/2 ounce bamboo. Don, all I can say is that you should come fish with me and I'll let youtry a balanced outfit. (Not great or expensive, just balanced.) Thanks for the offer, but I also have a balanced outfit or two. One final question: Have you ever fished with a balanced 9 foot cane rodoutfitall day with lots of line mending without you arm getting tired? Best regards,Reed THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT-Dr. Don ------------------Original text From: Fallcreek9@aol.com, on 9/30/97 12:21 PM:In a message dated 97-09- 30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel light bycomparison. --BeyondBoundary_1_Wed_Oct_01_10:32:21_1997__29 ATTRIBS.BND Name: ATTRIBS.BNDType: unspecified type (application/octet- stream)Encoding: x-uuencode --BeyondBoundary_1_Wed_Oct_01_10:32:21_1997__29-- from bokstrom@axionet.com Wed Oct 1 10:52:33 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory ----------From: Mark Delaney Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theoryDate: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 6:28 AM Terry, As a chemist I can assure you that the sugar is there, since allcelluloseis, is a series of sugars linked together. I think that these guys maybeheating things more aggressively than you do and may actually bebreakingdown some of the cellulosic fibers. They may get "stiffer" bamboo fromheat treating since some of the HO- (hydroxyl) groups on the cellulosefibers should decompose with HO- groups on other fibers to givecrosslinking -O- (oxide) groups and water. I don't know about "harder".This is all way too simple since it only considers cellulose. In livingsystems such as plant cells there are many other components. It is aninteresting thread, but I believe everyone here is attempting todrastically oversimplify what happens with heat treating bamboo,especially those who flame the inside of the culm. Mark in LA Just to stir the pot a little more: This is from a Ph.D. researcher (notme) studying lignin and how it changes due to heat etc. Lignin is a polymer molecule -- a long chain of identical units. Each unitconsists of ten carbon and four oxygen atoms; a six carbon ring with athree carbon chain attached to one side and a single carbon attached toanother, and two oxygens each on the ring and side chain.This polymer molecule is most likely arranged in three dimensional spaceasa helix. What happens when we heat-treat bamboo?Is the lignin skeleton simply rearranged into a more compact, stableconfiguration?Are one or more oxygens pulled away from the lignin molecule, thusalteringits properties?Are more oxygens added, thus altering its properties?Are color changes due to changes in lignin, in cellulose, or both? And an opinion of my own. That Tom Smithwick is right in questioning thatthe time involved in most heat treating methods is not sufficient forintracellular and intercellular moisture to escape completely. John from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Wed Oct 1 11:20:42 1997 RAA27017 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:24:00+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re: [Fwd: Warning!!!] Good Times Etc. Ok Guys's So you have just sent a virus to me! Let me explain:- The warning message IS the virus, its just electric junk mail. If you are not aware of what computer viruses really are, don't run around crying out that the sky is falling every time you hear a rumour. It is not possible to get a virus from a simple eMail message. A virus is an executable file and as such will be in an attachment ( it is possible to have viruses in Word and Excell documents as the Macro's enclosed are in fact executable files ). The "Good Times" rubbish is the same as the "Deyenda" rubbish, perpetuated only by the gullible. Please view the Computer Virus Myths Home Page at http://kumite.com/myths/ That will tell you all you need to know. Sorry to be so testy, but my mail gets clogged up with this well meant but misguided panic! Often sent by those who should know better! regards Simon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: [Fwd: Warning!!!]Author: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLO Dear subscribers, Thois warning message was sent to me and I am forwarding it on to you your benefit. WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT open it!It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out to asmany people you can.......this is a new virus and not many people knowabout it!This information was received this morning from IBM, please share it with anyone that might access the Internet. Also, If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please deleteit WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users -there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through an e-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!". DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANYMESSAGEENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!!This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you arenterested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is too late. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the bootsector of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It is aself-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it willAUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address ispresent in YOUR mailbox! This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holdsthepotential to DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your in box, and who's mail is in their in box and so on. If this viruskeepsgetting passed, it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE to computer networks worldwide!!!!Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as you see it! And pass this message along to all of your friends, relatives and the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists which youareon so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!!Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped. PASSTHIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!! There is a new virus going arround in the last couple of days!!! all your on-line friendsA.S.A.P.Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!! THANKS....ERIK THORNEDIGITAL SECURITY CONTROLS INC. from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Wed Oct 1 11:32:33 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA137; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:37:23 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000C5DC; Wed, 1 Oct 9711:55:27 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: Heat Treating - My theory --IMA.Boundary.729427578 Sounds like an empirical question to me... you think you could talk that PhD researcher into developing a set of experiments? Such as: extract lignin from a representative piece of tonkin and then observe the effects of various methods and duration of heat treating... I don't know if the experiment would be valid without the matrix (fibers) in place. Perhaps flaming/baking combinations then an extraction process and analysis. Eck ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theoryAuthor: "John Bokstrom" at SMTP_Gateway ----------From: Mark Delaney Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theoryDate: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 6:28 AM Terry, As a chemist I can assure you that the sugar is there, since all celluloseis, is a series of sugars linked together. I think that these guys may beheating things more aggressively than you do and may actually bebreaking down some of the cellulosic fibers. They may get "stiffer" bamboo fromheat treating since some of the HO- (hydroxyl) groups on the cellulose fibers should decompose with HO- groups on other fibers to givecrosslinking -O- (oxide) groups and water. I don't know about "harder". This is all way too simple since it only considers cellulose. In living systems such as plant cells there are many other components. It is aninteresting thread, but I believe everyone here is attempting to drastically oversimplify what happens with heat treating bamboo, especially those who flame the inside of the culm. Mark in LA Just to stir the pot a little more: This is from a Ph.D. researcher (not me) studying lignin and how it changes due to heat etc. Lignin is a polymer molecule -- a long chain of identical units. Each unit consists of ten carbon and four oxygen atoms; a six carbon ring with a three carbon chain attached to one side and a single carbon attached to another, and two oxygens each on the ring and side chain.This polymer molecule is most likely arranged in three dimensional spaceas a helix. What happens when we heat-treat bamboo?Is the lignin skeleton simply rearranged into a more compact, stable configuration?Are one or more oxygens pulled away from the lignin molecule, thusaltering its properties?Are more oxygens added, thus altering its properties?Are color changes due to changes in lignin, in cellulose, or both? And an opinion of my own. That Tom Smithwick is right in questioning that the time involved in most heat treating methods is not sufficient for intracellular and intercellular moisture to escape completely. John--IMA.Boundary.729427578 headers" ccgate.us.meissner-wurst.com with SMTP(IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000C5CC; Wed, 1 Oct 9711:22:33-0500 with ESMTP id AAA140 for ;Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:04:26 -0500 11:54:39 wurst.com viasmap (3.2) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory --IMA.Boundary.729427578-- from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Oct 1 11:45:09 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-10-01 11:56:09 EDT, you write: John + Just an observation: My oven is 5 feet in overall length, and have heattreated 6'+ one-piece rods, thus a small hole in the door for obviousreasons. In more than one case, while heat treating 3 or more sections,haveobserved steam/smoke-like exhaust issuing from said hole. At 350d f to375df (not accurately taken temp), that steam lasted 11 to 13 min. No opinionabout this with regards to the debate. John, does your research friend recommend any time/temp numbers for ouruse? Best Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Oct 1 11:45:52 1997 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper In a message dated 97-10-01 11:37:01 EDT, you write: From: Fallcreek9@aol.com, on 9/30/97 12:21 PM:In a message dated 97-09- 30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of line control,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel lightbycomparison. Don, Reed, Terry and others involved in this discussion: The abovecommentkeeps popping up as being sent by "Fallcreek9@aol.com". Not so!!, tho it gotpicked up that way from numerous transcriptions. Actually, I hardly get achance to fish for trout, and have done precious little nymphing. My onlycomment on the original thread was that nymphing may be a case forhollowbuilding bamboo. Will leave it up to all you lucky fishers in trout countryto hash this one out. Best Regards,Richard from mrj@seanet.com Wed Oct 1 12:07:12 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA29572 for Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the following question: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and water boilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or the desireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane that needsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture -hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case or two. Chris If I may add to this also...Has anybody thought of putting the bamboo in a vacuum for a couple ofdays to remove the moisture and then heat treating?I would think a vacuum would remove water as well or better than heat.-- Martin Jensen from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Wed Oct 1 12:19:35 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA203 for ;Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:24:22 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000C5FF; Wed, 1 Oct 9712:42:27 -0500 Subject: Sounds like an empirical question... To those chemists on the list... it seems like it would be possible, given the right resources, to design a set of experiments to examine the effects of various methods of heat treating on the lignin itself. Something such as: sacrifice a representative piece of tonkin in order to extract the lignin and the other brew of stuff that nature creates. After the extraction, heat it, flame it, etc. and observe/analyze the effects. Or, while it may be more difficult, apply heat in varying types and durations to pieces of cane, then attempt to extract the lignin and analyze (visually, physically, and chemically) the effect of the various types of heat treatment. This may be a more accurate methodof assessment since the lignin would be heated within the matrix of cane fibers as opposed to extraction and heating independent of the fibers. Anyone want to write an grant proposal? Eck from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Wed Oct 1 12:30:55 1997 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Chris, Angel ,et al.-Mea culpa , yes I did put a plastic line on a Payne, but the rod didn;tseen to mind and I think it still respects me the day after (besides Ididn't have a 5wt silk line and I don't remember any one offering to let meuse their's). My small experience with silk is limited to old lines in poorcondition. They wouldn't float very long , soaked up water and were a lotof trouble to use even if they were nice to cast. New or properlyrefinished old lines seem to be not too much trouble to use judging by theresponse from the list guys with a lot more experience than I have (myexperiences were mostly bad). So... anyone got a DT5 silk in superbcondition to trade/sell ? To Reed&Chris - how about sharing with us howyou condition/recondition your silk lines. Dennis (silkline impaired) Higham from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Oct 1 12:57:43 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-10-01 09:36:24 EDT, you write: One thing that they might notrealize, is that stiffer by crosslinking also usually means more brittle.There has to be a point of overdoing it. I do realize that over heating can damage cane. I flamed a half culmtwice to see what would happen. It made a suprisingly stiff and springyrod, but when it gets bent more than normal, like on a big fish, I canhear it crackle. Doesn't seem to affect it when that happens, though.Still doesn't take a set and still casts nicely (for a Garrison taper). Darryl Hayashida from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Oct 1 14:29:49 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA03356 for ;Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:29:44 - 0500 Subject: Re: Sounds like an empirical question... I don't think NSF, NIH, PRF or any granting agency would fund it! Theywould claim that there isn't enough economic impact! Mark in LA On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, eric.koehler wrote: To those chemists on the list... it seems like it would be possible, given the right resources, to design a set of experiments to examine the effects of various methods of heat treating on the lignin itself. Something such as: sacrifice a representative piece of tonkin in order to extract the lignin and the other brew of stuff that nature creates. After the extraction, heat it, flame it, etc. and observe/analyze the effects. Or, while it may be more difficult, apply heat in varying types and durations to pieces of cane, then attempt to extract the lignin and analyze (visually, physically, and chemically) the effect of the various types of heat treatment. This may be a more accurate methodof assessment since the lignin would be heated within the matrix ofcane fibers as opposed to extraction and heating independent of the fibers. Anyone want to write an grant proposal? Eck from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Oct 1 15:10:52 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA25513; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:09:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine Dennis I am on the road right now and do not have the recipe for thevarnish / oil mix that Reed gave me. It works fine and puts theline in good shape. It is easy to do and only requires room tostring the line out and rub the mixture on and let it dry.It Reed doesn't chime in I will send it to you this weekend.You may want to check the list archives because I know it hasbeen posted before. Chris dennis higham wrote: Chris, Angel ,et al.-Mea culpa , yes I did put a plastic line on a Payne, but the rod didn;tseen to mind and I think it still respects me the day after (besides Ididn't have a 5wt silk line and I don't remember any one offering to letmeuse their's). My small experience with silk is limited to old lines in poorcondition. They wouldn't float very long , soaked up water and were a lotof trouble to use even if they were nice to cast. New or properlyrefinished old lines seem to be not too much trouble to use judging bytheresponse from the list guys with a lot more experience than I have (myexperiences were mostly bad). So... anyone got a DT5 silk in superbcondition to trade/sell ? To Reed&Chris - how about sharing with ushowyou condition/recondition your silk lines. Dennis (silkline impaired) Higham from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 15:17:22 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the following question: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and waterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or the desireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane that needsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture - hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case ortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 15:30:02 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Martin Jensen wrote: Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the followingquestion: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and waterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heat treatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or thedesireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneeds to occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture-hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking.Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case ortwo. Chris If I may add to this also...Has anybody thought of putting the bamboo in a vacuum for a couple ofdays to remove the moisture and then heat treating?I would think a vacuum would remove water as well or better than heat. --Martin Jensen Martin,I have a high vacuum pump, a vacuum chamber 5 ft long. I am not ascientist but I do like to experiment and have been trying differentmethods for the last 3 years. from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Oct 1 15:35:29 1997 with ESMTP id PAA07258 for ; Wed, 1 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id FGUJBDCE; Wed,1 Oct 1997 15:34:53 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 4:16 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the following question: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating and waterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hour andadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need to heattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or the desireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only so Ibelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneedsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to remove moisture- hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so good cooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a case ortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry Thanks for sharing Terry. I like a darker, uniform color too. Flaming justdoesn't apeal to me much. Does this regimen give you a nice honey chestnutcolor? Dr. Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 16:03:30 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 16:29:10 EDT, you write: I have never had any experience of a stickysubstance oozing from the ends. Not exactly what I said. I said steam and liquid escape from the endgrain, and as you continue to heat it the liquid turns black andhardens.Try flaming a culm. You can't miss it when you get near the ends. Darryl Hayashida Darryl,I read once that if you heat wood in a closed container you getmethanol (wood alcohol) .I think this is green wood but I am not sure. Also this is how charcoalis made. I will agree to disagree with you, I honestly do not want to get intoflaming cane.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 16:07:59 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Don DeLoach wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 4:16 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the followingquestion: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating andwaterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hourandadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need toheattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or thedesireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only soIbelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneedsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to removemoisture - hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so goodcooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a caseortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry Thanks for sharing Terry. I like a darker, uniform color too.Flaming justdoesn't apeal to me much. Does this regimen give you a nice honeychestnutcolor? Dr. Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 16:15:03 1997 (205.236.248.200) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Don DeLoach wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 4:16 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the followingquestion: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating andwaterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hourandadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need toheattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or thedesireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only soIbelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneedsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to removemoisture - hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so goodcooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a caseortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry Thanks for sharing Terry. I like a darker, uniform color too.Flaming justdoesn't apeal to me much. Does this regimen give you a nice honeychestnutcolor? Dr. Don Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue line andshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.Terry from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Oct 1 16:57:15 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28525 for ; Wed, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id IOVGCRBB; Wed,1 Oct 1997 16:56:42 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 5:14 PM:Don DeLoach wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 4:16 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the followingquestion: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating andwaterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hourandadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need toheattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or thedesireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only soIbelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneedsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to removemoisture - hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so goodcooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a caseortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry Thanks for sharing Terry. I like a darker, uniform color too.Flaming justdoesn't apeal to me much. Does this regimen give you a nice honeychestnutcolor? Dr. Don Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue line andshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.Terry Terry, are your splines at the rough 60s stage when you heat treat? Dr. D from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 1 18:48:13 1997 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A OK. So what is the general consensus? How would 7 minutes at 350 to375degrees F followed at finishing by 20 to 25 hours at 200 degrees F work? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 04:56 PM 10/1/97 -0700, you wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 5:14 PM:Don DeLoach wrote: From: Terence Ackland , on 10/1/97 4:16 PM:Chris Bogart wrote: Terry In answer to your comments let me pose the followingquestion: If moisture is the only reason for heat treating andwaterboilsat212F then why don't you heat treat at 225F vice 375F for 1 hourandadvoid the risk of damanging the cane? Now consider that most rodmakers agree that you need toheattreatat a temperature around 350 degrees to get the best or thedesireableresult.This is in excess of what is required to remove moisture only soIbelievethere must be some other fundamental change(s) to the cane thatneedsto occur above and beyond what is required strickly to removemoisture - hence mytheroy. Just some food for thought since cane smells so goodcooking. Ifyoubring over some of your beer we can solve this problem in a caseortwo. Chris Chris,I cook at 375f for 1 hour for the colour.Terry Thanks for sharing Terry. I like a darker, uniform color too.Flaming justdoesn't apeal to me much. Does this regimen give you a nice honeychestnutcolor? Dr. Don Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue line andshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.Terry Terry, are your splines at the rough 60s stage when you heat treat? Dr. D from john@cyberchatcafe.com Wed Oct 1 18:51:44 1997 www.cyberchatcafe.com(EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id;Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:50:17 -0600 Subject: Dickerson 8'6" "3"?wt. Gentlemen;Please excuse a newcomer for changing the subject,but Iam curiosabout the Dickerson 8'6" 3 wt. listed in the taper archives. Is this reallya 3 wt. or a misprint on the line size? The dimensions seem more like a 7or 8 weight. I'm sure someone has already asked this question ages ago,butI hope someone doesn't mind repeating the answer.By the way, I would liketo tell all of you out there that I really enjoy all the dialogue. I amsure if I pay attention all of my rodmaking questions will be answered,probably before I think to ask them. Thanks; John Channer Durango,Co. from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 1 19:24:11 1997 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper I guess it all depends on what you fish for, where you fish and what youlike. A few weeks ago, I didn't even know the materials for building abamboo rod was available. Like many, I thought "graphite" was the thing.But I had one big problem. I grew up in western central Arkansas; a placeI intend on retiring in a few years. The streams are small; an 8' rod willcompletely span several of them but they have plenty of perch and smallmouth bass. These fish prefer a larger bait. Sure you can catch them on asmaller fly but by and large, the smaller the fly, the smaller the overallsize of your catch. The larger fish prefer a larger fly and the smallerfish prefer a smaller fly. I've been wanting a 7 foot, 7 wt rod for a long time but as anyone on thislist knows, graphite ain't the answer. I am planning on building the onefeatured in the "Rodmaker" files as soon as I finish the one for mygranddaughter. To me the great streams are the "Big Fork", the "ButcherKnife" and the "Mazarn"; of course, I wouldn't forget the "Caddo". Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 10:05 PM 10/1/97 +1200, you wrote:At 07:19 AM 1/10/97 +0800, you wrote:On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Terence Ackland wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol, I tend to think this is true. Longer rods have been the norm here and I think it's because we have a lot of fishing in fairly steep banked rivers and creeks and/or in the case of fishing for Browns on lakes in Tasmania rises can be few and far between and you need to belt a line out long and quick and often into a stiff breeze.I believe that's the reason bamboo rods haven't regained the following here as in the US and Canada as short rods aren't as useful in as many situations and nobody wants a heavy one. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ Tony , It is very much the same in New Zealand with many streams also beingtreelined and the extra foot or two in the rod making a lot of difference inline control , including backcast . A short rod is 8 foot , usual is 8 1/2to 9 foot for most fishing and 10 foot not uncommon in some of thebiggerrivers where they tend to use weight 8+ lines to punch into wind . I must say I find the USA focus on short (?) light weight rods somewhatunusual given that i cannot recall seeing a weight 3 rod for sale in NZ andonly once a weight 4 rod . Maybe us recent colonials are a little tougher/stronger in the arm thentheYanks , Tony ? Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Oct 1 19:31:27 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA16110 for Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines Refinished Richard, my man,Here are two ways:number one I've posted before*************** margin of an old book (Making and Using the Fly and Leader by Paul H.Young, 1938). "Refinishing Line 1 part Spar Varnish1 part Turpentine8 part Boiled Linseed Oil Rub on with cloth - clean extra off after 4-5 hours - Dry 24 hours." The old oil-varnish mix again. I think I've seen this recipe for linesbefore.***************and number two:This is the easy way. It works quite well, really. 1/ Clean line thoroughly with mineral oil (turps) and allowed to dry. 2/ Get two paper grocery bags and place them open on the floor beforeyou.3/ Place line loose in Bag A.4/ As you sit comfortably in a chair pretending to ignore your teenagersfighting, draw the line through a clean rag soaked in Tung oil, lettingit fall loosely into Bag B.5/ Wait 2 - 4 hours, or until Tung oil is dry.6/ Rub line briskly through your hands (polishing it)as you draw it fromBag B to Bag A.7/ Your children are still fighting, but the reason has changed. Repeatsteps 4 - 6 above until a smooth, glossy coat has formed on the line.8/ Get brochures from the better military academies. Best regards,Reed Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Reed - would you share your method of working over the silk lines?Many thanks,RTyree from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Oct 1 20:07:26 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA16738 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Don DeLoach wrote: Reed, my comments in bold...If you use a 9' or 10' rod, you don't need to extend your arm. I contendthat it always helps to extend your arm. But another issue is mending.Constantly flipping over a five or six ounce rod WILL get tiresome. I guess that depends on the rod. I fish some fast, boulder-strewnstreams with many varying currents. A lazy S cast is mandatory andconstant- mending is also necessary to get any drag-free drift at all.However, a 9' or 10' cane rod flips that line over very nicely. As forweight, you didn't say what line weight you use in your fishing. I havea 9' 3wt. cane that probably weighs less "in the hand" than most 8'cane. Does 1.5 oz., most of it in the butt, make all that much difference,really? Yes, because it requires that much heavier of a reel to balanceoutthe whole outfit. Okay, I can see that, but though the "real" weight has increased, theapparent weight (due to using the hand as fulcrum) is not appreciablygreater. Don, I can't let that (bait) pass. In some states, (regrettably as of1994, not N.H.) the people you refer to are not flyfishermen because bysome State laws, if weight is applied to the line (sometimes, fly) it isNOT fly fishing. Wow. I've always agreed with this thinking, which iswhy Imuch prefer upstream nymphing with very lightly weighted nymphs only.Slinginglead really isn't flyfishing because by definition fly fishing is using aweighted line to throw a relatively weightless leader and fly. But thistype oflogic and law would never pass in Texas, New Mexico, Arkansas, orOklahomawhere I fish because nymph fishing is so prevalent. Where is this law ineffect? I would love to visit these states and only have to compete withdryfly fishermen for stream space! I don't know the list of states. As I say, N.H. succumbed to "industry"(guides, tourism, fly shops, etc.) pressure in '94 and changed its laws.I have quietly suggested that the "fly-fishing only" areas beredesignated "single-hook artificial lure", since that would be morehonest and fair, while serving the same purpose. Most of the people you refer to would be better offwith an ultra-light spinning outfit (with which I find nothing wrong)asit is better and safer for their purposes.I agree. If lightness, rather than casting ease, delicacy, etc., is your solecriteria, than the argument applies to all fly rods. Correct. LightnessISimportant in all fly rods. Thats why most of us cane guys build rods intheshorter lengths-- they're musch lighter. But lightness increases rapidlywithlength, unfortunately. This is important to consider for those of us whoneedlonger rods for, say, nymphing. As for casting ease and delicacy, that isanother issue entirely. Most nyphing situations don't require delicacysincethe fish are on the bottom. But obviously delicacy is hugely importantwhencasting a #22 midge to spooky cutthroats on a shallow, gin clear creek.This iswhere a cane rod really shines, as we all know. But it's a far differentsituation than big river nymphing in the states I mentioned earlier. And also where a long cane rod excels. You should read the excellentarticle by Leonard Wright in his book "Fly Fishing Heresies" on thelenght of fly rods. Very interesting. Don, all I can say is that you should come fish with me and I'll let youtry a balanced outfit. (Not great or expensive, just balanced.) Thanks for the offer, but I also have a balanced outfit or two. I'm sure you do, but come fishing anyway. One final question: Have you ever fished with a balanced 9 foot cane rodoutfitall day with lots of line mending without you arm getting tired? Lots of times. And sometimes I've fished all day, casting into the wind,and my arm has grown tired. It feels good. My cure for this is to liedown on the bank with my feet in the water and go to sleep.Best regards,Reed from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 20:27:52 1997 (205.236.248.124) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Don DeLoach wrote: Terry, are your splines at the rough 60s stage when you heat treat? Dr. D Yes,Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 20:36:08 1997 (205.236.248.124) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Onis Cogburn wrote: OK. So what is the general consensus? How would 7 minutes at 350 to375degrees F followed at finishing by 20 to 25 hours at 200 degrees Fwork? Regards,Onis 20 hrs at 200f will not change the colour but it would dry the cane out,raising the temp to 350 for 7mins will not change the colour either.Try , say the 20 hrs @ 200 and raise the temp to 350-375 and remove thecane when you like the colour. Terry from JCZIMNY@dol.net Wed Oct 1 20:57:55 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue line andshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.TerryIn this last statement, you are incorrect. I flame most of my rods and Ido not think you will find a visible glue line.John Zimny from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 21:07:26 1997 (205.236.248.124) Subject: TOASTED CANE I have just finished trying out a flamed type of heat treatment with ascrap of cane 6 ft long and about 3/4 wide . I used an alcohol burnerto get a good heat and worked 8 ins in from one end. As I heated the 8in section and it started to burn and the moisture did bubble from theend. I stopped flaming when the moisure stopped an the cane lookedvisually like the flamed rods I have seen.I let the cane cool for 30 mins and then proceeded to bend the flamedportion until it broke. It broke with a very even break and the twobroken ends looked as if the lignin had broken down. The fibers werevery brush like and seemed to have no binder. When I broke the oppositeend of the strip that had not been heat treated the cane fractured withlots of long splinters.I am not an expert on flaming cane and would like some imput as to whatcan be expected from fracturing a piece of over cooked cane.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 1 21:18:15 1997 (205.236.248.124) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A John Zimny wrote: Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue lineandshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.TerryIn this last statement, you are incorrect. I flame most of my rods andIdo not think you will find a visible glue line.John Zimny John,What I meant was that if you do not flame you must have a perfect glueline . With flaming you can get away with a little less than perfect.Young developed this technique to hide bad cane and joints that were,-well.I am not inplying that is why you flameHow is the new beveller going? I was getting a little worried, you havenot posted for a while. You still have all your fingers? from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Oct 1 22:50:19 1997 Subject: Re: TOASTED CANE In a message dated 97-10-01 22:08:06 EDT, you write: I have just finished trying out a flamed type of heat treatment with ascrap of cane 6 ft long and about 3/4 wide . I used an alcohol burnerto get a good heat and worked 8 ins in from one end. As I heated the 8in section and it started to burn and the moisture did bubble from theend. I stopped flaming when the moisure stopped an the cane lookedvisually like the flamed rods I have seen. First of all you cannot flame a strip that narrow. I flame a wholehalf (split lengthwise) culm at a time. More mass distributes theheat over a wider area. I can see why your 3/4 in. wide strip startedto burn. If it did start to actually burn, it was way overheated.The flaming technique I use is to use a half culm, and with a propane torch that has a brushy flame start heating with a motion as if you were quickly painting the culm. Keep the flame moving, never stopping in one spot. When the bamboo is hot enough the top layer of the enamel will flake off. Quit heating that sectionat that point and move on down the culm. The main reason I heatgun the pith side first and then flame is because flaming with the propane torch doesn't heat very deeply. Darryl Hayashida from Crossview1@aol.com Wed Oct 1 22:53:35 1997 Subject: Location of Dip Tube Does a varnish tank have to be in the climate control of a house, or can itbe built in a shed/workshop that does not have heat/AC? I live in northernVirginia where the humidity can be bad in the summer. Will this, or thecoldof the winter, effect the varnish or the finished rod(s) if the varnish tankis not in a climate controled area? Any thoughts? Thanks. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Oct 1 23:07:13 1997 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines Refinished In a message dated 97-10-01 20:36:44 EDT, you write: Reed: Thanks much for the info. I was off list for quite awhile andapparently missed the posting. This is very good info, and will use # 1 foran old silk just acquired. BTW, they eventually grow up and leave home - then you can hardly waitfortheir visits. Best Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Oct 1 23:07:29 1997 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper In a message dated 97-10-01 06:08:22 EDT, you write: Maybe from hoisting all those stouts?RT from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Oct 1 23:24:20 1997 Subject: Re: Sounds like an empirical question... At 12:42 01/10/97 -0500, Eck wrote:To those chemists on the list... it seems like it would be possible, given the right resources, to design a set of experiments to examine the effects of various methods of heat treating on the lignin itself. Something such as: sacrifice a representative piece of tonkin in order to extract the lignin and the other brew of stuff that nature creates. After the extraction, heat it, flame it, etc. and observe/analyze the effects. Or, while it may be more difficult, apply heat in varying types and durations to pieces of cane, then attempt to extract the lignin and analyze (visually, physically, and chemically) the effect of the various types of heat treatment. This may be a more accurate methodof assessment since the lignin would be heated within the matrix of cane fibers as opposed to extraction and heating independent of the fibers. Anyone want to write an grant proposal? Eck Been there, done that - see Planning Form a number of years ago. And Iusedmy our funds. Knew I should have taken more schooling - I coulda gotttagrant/loan/gift/vocation Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed Oct 1 23:24:23 1997 Subject: Heat Treating - Baa humbug Guys, Heat treat if you must - then tell me and others how you proved that itmade the cane any stiffer. I heat treat and do it like Terry for the colorand just maybe there may be something to the whole heat treating thing.While I haven't totally discounted the effects, I haven't been able todevise a test where the heat treated cane shows any change fromuntreatedcane. There are folks on this list that will emphatically tell you in nouncertain terms that if you don't heat treat, you are building an inferiorfishing pole. When they share the results of the tests they have done toarrive @ their conclusion, I guess I might buy into the usefulness of heattreating. Till then I guess I just like a honey blonde. God, I hope I likehoney blondes - I married one. If you must heat treat, you must be aware that the moisture effects arereversed in the matter of days unless you get a moisture barrier on the rodimmediately. So, I heat treat after the final planning and coat the rodwith the best plastic finish I can find as soon as possible after heattreating. Plastic is best by test to stop moisture inclusion. [ See Terry'spost on the coating tested by the Forest Labs. Plastic beats most otherfinishes except for wax hands down.] All the best in time/temp. and hopefully someone will devise a definitivetest, Don[still enthused over honey blondes] Andersen from cbogart@shentel.net Thu Oct 2 07:33:10 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA04013; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:33:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines Refinished Reed / Dennis I used method #1 and it works fine. Last thing I did after 24 hours isto rub the line with Talcum Powder prior to putting it on a reel.As for floating aspects of the line Muclin works just fine - minimaleffort to apply - same as greasing a leader. The results are worth a little effort. Chris Reed F. Curry wrote: Richard, my man,Here are two ways:number one I've posted before*************** margin of an old book (Making and Using the Fly and Leader by Paul H.Young, 1938). "Refinishing Line 1 part Spar Varnish1 part Turpentine8 part Boiled Linseed Oil Rub on with cloth - clean extra off after 4-5 hours - Dry 24 hours." The old oil-varnish mix again. I think I've seen this recipe for linesbefore.***************and number two:This is the easy way. It works quite well, really.1/ Clean line thoroughly with mineral oil (turps) and allowed to dry.2/ Get two paper grocery bags and place them open on the floor beforeyou.3/ Place line loose in Bag A.4/ As you sit comfortably in a chair pretending to ignore your teenagersfighting, draw the line through a clean rag soaked in Tung oil, lettingit fall loosely into Bag B.5/ Wait 2 - 4 hours, or until Tung oil is dry.6/ Rub line briskly through your hands (polishing it)as you draw it fromBag B to Bag A.7/ Your children are still fighting, but the reason has changed. Repeatsteps 4 - 6 above until a smooth, glossy coat has formed on the line.8/ Get brochures from the better military academies. Best regards,Reed Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Reed - would you share your method of working over the silk lines?Many thanks,RTyree from pallen@wcoil.com Thu Oct 2 08:17:51 1997 alpha.wcoil.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27894 for Subject: Matching Reels with Rods Recently on this list there was discussion about matching a reel with arodto balance the outfit for casting purposes. I was wondering if anyone hasinformation on what brands/types of reels are most used with cane rods? Isthere a "traditional" reel that tends to get used with cane rods, or arepeople buying Sage reels and using them with cane rods? I confess myignorance here and thank all in advance who respond. Patrick from vjwilson@micron.net Thu Oct 2 08:51:37 1997 Subject: Re: Matching Reels with Rods i could REALLY use help with this question also. thanksguys for a great information site.leonard in idaho from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 2 09:16:34 1997 ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug OK. As a beginner, I have no opinion one way or the other. I am looking to 375 degrees F followed by several hours at finishing at 250 degrees F.I am comfortable using epoxy(built a BUNCH of model airplanes) and planonusing it for assembly. Although there are high temperature types, I amprobably going to have to settle for the more common type carried inmodelairplane stores. This holds it's strength to over 200 degrees F so I wantthe final drying kept below that. I'm hearing what sounds like some over cooking and also what sounds likesome effects that might be due to under cooking. I am still unclear whatthe minimum heat treating time is(maybe it IS zero) and neither do I haveafeel of how much cooking weakens the cane. I would expect some sort ofcurves when strength, stiffness, elasticity, memory and/or etc. areplottedagainst heat treating time and/or temperature but I have no idea what thelimits are. I expect you experienced builders have a pretty good idea whatthis is. If some of you have opinions on what these limits are and wouldlike to share with us beginners, it sure would be appreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comAt 09:27 PM 10/1/97, you wrote:Guys, Heat treat if you must - then tell me and others how you proved that itmade the cane any stiffer. I heat treat and do it like Terry for the colorand just maybe there may be something to the whole heat treating thing.While I haven't totally discounted the effects, I haven't been able todevise a test where the heat treated cane shows any change fromuntreatedcane. There are folks on this list that will emphatically tell you in nouncertain terms that if you don't heat treat, you are building an inferiorfishing pole. When they share the results of the tests they have done toarrive @ their conclusion, I guess I might buy into the usefulness of heattreating. Till then I guess I just like a honey blonde. God, I hope I likehoney blondes - I married one. If you must heat treat, you must be aware that the moisture effects arereversed in the matter of days unless you get a moisture barrier on therodimmediately. So, I heat treat after the final planning and coat the rodwith the best plastic finish I can find as soon as possible after heattreating. Plastic is best by test to stop moisture inclusion. [ See Terry'spost on the coating tested by the Forest Labs. Plastic beats most otherfinishes except for wax hands down.] All the best in time/temp. and hopefully someone will devise a definitivetest, Don[still enthused over honey blondes] Andersen from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Thu Oct 2 09:49:43 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Thu, 02 Oct 97 10:47:34 EDT Subject: Re: Matching Reels with Rods Patrick there are a couple of considerations in choosing a reel. For onething, on heavier (ie., longer) rods, a heavier reel tends to work as acounter-balance, making the rod "feel" lighter. This of course doesn'tmakeanything lighter but reduces the tendency of the rod tip to pull down, andso it does have an ergonomic effect (advantage) of reducing the force(torque in the wrist) necessary to keep the rod level or pointed up.Another way of thinking this through is to recognize that a heavier reelmoves the center of balance further back, in essence toward the fulcrum,which is your hand. When the two coincide, the rod no longer dips, butpulls straight down on your hand, and you can, for example, support the rodwith a single finger.On the other hand, a heavier reel adds inertial resistance to themovement of the rod through its casting arc. It adds, that is, to theenergy needed to move the rod, and adding to the energy needed has atendency to slow the tip down. I can't remember whether it was Lee WulfforVince Marinaro who demonstrated that a rod casts as well or betterwithoutany reel at all, and therefore should have the lightest reel possible.(Think it was Marinaro; Wulff showed once that you (well, he) could cast aline without even a rod.) What these two observation indicate to me is that reel choice shouldbe made according to both criteria. Lighter is better, but it must stillcounter-balance a rod. Another implication is that rods should be built aslight as possible so that a heavy reel (which reduces tip speed) isn'tneeded to compensate for unnecessary weight. In terms of reel preference, given these parameters, I like Hardy'sLightweight series. It doesn't have a disk drag, which I regard asunnecessary weight for most trout applications. In an cognitive- aestheticdimension: I recall reading that it hasn't been changed since it wasintroduced in the 1950s, a period in which cane rods were the norm. Forme,then, the Hardy Lightweight add to reconstructing the continuity andintegrity of fishing with a cane rod. (But I also use only natural flymaterials and have a preference for fishing two wets at once.) Hope that helps you think your way to a solution you find satisfying, --Mark Freed At 09:21 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:Recently on this list there was discussion about matching a reel with arodto balance the outfit for casting purposes. I was wondering if anyone hasinformation on what brands/types of reels are most used with cane rods? Isthere a "traditional" reel that tends to get used with cane rods, or arepeople buying Sage reels and using them with cane rods? I confess myignorance here and thank all in advance who respond. Patrick from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Thu Oct 2 09:51:11 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Thu, 02 Oct 97 10:49:03 EDT Subject: Re: Location of Dip Tube Crossview: I do think the humidity and temp. are important to control,especially cold, because it thickend varnish. But the problems can bedefeated pretty easily. I suspended my copper dip tube in a long vertical plywood box ( 8'x1'x1') which can be made of 1 sheet of plywood) and put a couple of 75wattbulbs in the bottom. I also divided the box horizontally at about the midpoint with a 1' x 1' board so that only the very top of the tube sticks upinto the top section,and I lined the top section with visquene. The bulbsheat the varnish below, the top section can be wiped down with a dampclothto remove dust, and the heat from the bulbs also speeds drying when thesection is removed and hangs suspended in the upper section. The uppersection does not have all four sides, only three, and I overlapped twopieces of visquene to make a reach in curtain. The heat keeps the humidity down and temp. up. My basement is nowabout 60 deg. F and between 90%-100% humidity. Even under thoseconditions,the inside of the box is approx. 85 deg F and 50% humidity. Not bad for 1sheet of plywood and a $5 roll of plastic. --Mark Freed At 11:53 PM 10/1/97 -0400, you wrote:Does a varnish tank have to be in the climate control of a house, or can itbe built in a shed/workshop that does not have heat/AC? I live innorthernVirginia where the humidity can be bad in the summer. Will this, or thecoldof the winter, effect the varnish or the finished rod(s) if the varnish tankis not in a climate controled area? Any thoughts? Thanks. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Oct 2 10:42:50 1997 Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:42:07 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug You'll hear a lot about this subject because there are a lot of answers.Keep in mind that all the people airing their own pet ideas are happy with the results they are getting so there is obviously a lot of leeway.I'd suggest trying WC's recomendation in his book, and experiment from there. Much of what people like in a rod is personal and the heat treating has a lot to do with the end result, so do what we all have to do and fire up the oven and give it a go. Tony On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Onis Cogburn wrote: OK. As a beginner, I have no opinion one way or the other. I am looking 350to 375 degrees F followed by several hours at finishing at 250 degrees F.I am comfortable using epoxy(built a BUNCH of model airplanes) and planonusing it for assembly. Although there are high temperature types, I amprobably going to have to settle for the more common type carried inmodelairplane stores. This holds it's strength to over 200 degrees F so I wantthe final drying kept below that. I'm hearing what sounds like some over cooking and also what soundslikesome effects that might be due to under cooking. I am still unclear whatthe minimum heat treating time is(maybe it IS zero) and neither do Ihave afeel of how much cooking weakens the cane. I would expect some sortofcurves when strength, stiffness, elasticity, memory and/or etc. areplottedagainst heat treating time and/or temperature but I have no idea whatthelimits are. I expect you experienced builders have a pretty good ideawhatthis is. If some of you have opinions on what these limits are and wouldlike to share with us beginners, it sure would be appreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comAt 09:27 PM 10/1/97, you wrote:Guys, Heat treat if you must - then tell me and others how you proved that itmade the cane any stiffer. I heat treat and do it like Terry for the colorand just maybe there may be something to the whole heat treatingthing.While I haven't totally discounted the effects, I haven't been able todevise a test where the heat treated cane shows any change fromuntreatedcane. There are folks on this list that will emphatically tell you in nouncertain terms that if you don't heat treat, you are building aninferiorfishing pole. When they share the results of the tests they have done toarrive @ their conclusion, I guess I might buy into the usefulness ofheattreating. Till then I guess I just like a honey blonde. God, I hope I likehoney blondes - I married one. If you must heat treat, you must be aware that the moisture effects arereversed in the matter of days unless you get a moisture barrier on therodimmediately. So, I heat treat after the final planning and coat the rodwith the best plastic finish I can find as soon as possible after heattreating. Plastic is best by test to stop moisture inclusion. [ See Terry'spost on the coating tested by the Forest Labs. Plastic beats most otherfinishes except for wax hands down.] All the best in time/temp. and hopefully someone will devise adefinitivetest, Don [still enthused over honey blondes] Andersen /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Thu Oct 2 10:48:23 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA28743 for; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:51:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Matching Reels with Rods ----------Mark wrote: Patrick there are a couple of considerations in choosing a reel. For onething, on heavier (ie., longer) rods, a heavier reel tends to work as acounter-balance, making the rod "feel" lighter. I do agree with Mark, Hardy's reels do suit a cane rod (also). I myself useHardy`y The Golden Prince because:A) Its a firstclass reel, B) It'll last a lifetime and C) When a troutpulls line, it's puuure music. I wish I could come up with some scientific reason for using these reels,but as with so many other thingsin rodbuilding/flyfishing, it is a question of personal taste - I simplylike the looks and the function of thisreel. And the usual disclaimer: I am not in anyway connected to etc. etc. etc. Best regards Carsten from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Oct 2 11:04:09 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Times/Temps. Onis wrote and asked: I'm hearing what sounds like some over cooking and also what sounds likesome effects that might be due to under cooking. I am still unclear whatthe minimum heat treating time is(maybe it IS zero) and neither do I haveafeel of how much cooking weakens the cane. I would expect some sort ofcurves when strength, stiffness, elasticity, memory and/or etc. areplottedagainst heat treating time and/or temperature but I have no idea whatthelimits are. I expect you experienced builders have a pretty good ideawhatthis is. If some of you have opinions on what these limits are and wouldlike to share with us beginners, it sure would be appreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comAt 09:27 PM 10/1/97, you wrote: Onis, A lot of builders use about 350 F >375 F from 15>60 minutes.A starting point might be 365F over 20 minutes. Try this to start. You willbe within the ballpark. As far as plotting the temp/time relationship against memory, elasticityorother criteria; no one to my knowledge has successfully determined justwhat is the best temp./time thing. Like Tony says, it's a personal thing. Don from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Oct 2 11:08:49 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug In a message dated 97-10-02 01:58:06 EDT, you write: Heat treat if you must - then tell me and others how you proved that itmade the cane any stiffer. I made a butt section with no heat treating at all. When bent it heldthe bend for 10 minutes and then slowly returned to straight. I don'tthink I want to fish with a rod like that. Darryl Hayashida from bjcoch@arkansas.net Thu Oct 2 11:19:11 1997 www.anc.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA02734 for; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:19:06 GMT Subject: Re: [Fwd: Warning!!!] Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: Subject: Warning!!!Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:55:49 -0700 Dear subscribers, Thois warning message was sent to me and I am forwarding it on to youforyour benefit. WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOTopen it!It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Also, If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! pleasedeleteit WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users -there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through ane-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!". DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANYMESSAGEENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!!This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you arenterested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is toolate. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the bootsector of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. THANKS....ERIK THORNEDIGITAL SECURITY CONTROLS INC.To all who panicked when you read the above message. It is impossible torecieve a virus by E-Mail unless you down load an executable file(.exe) around for over a year now and the people at the Anti-virus researchcenter have found it to be a hoax!!!! you can check for your self at:http://www.symantec.com then go to anti-virus then go to the researchcenter. You will find a list of hoaxes that are being perpetuated byusers who do not know the first thing about virii. The originators ofthese hoaxes are black hat hackers with nothing better to do than spreadpanic. As a white hat hacker I can assure all on our list that the onlyway to be infected is by opening an exe file (read as attachment) inyour e-mail. gandelf from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Thu Oct 2 12:16:55 1997 1997 17:16:46 UT 10:16:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Matching Reels with Rod -- What these two observation indicate to me is that reel choice shouldbe made according to both criteria. Lighter is better, but it must stillcounter-balance a rod. Another implication is that rods should be built aslight as possible so that a heavy reel (which reduces tip speed) isn'tneeded to compensate for unnecessary weight. In terms of reel preference, given these parameters, I like Hardy'sLightweight series. It doesn't have a disk drag, which I regard asunnecessary weight for most trout applications. In an cognitive- aestheticdimension: I recall reading that it hasn't been changed since it wasintroduced in the 1950s, a period in which cane rods were the norm. Forme,then, the Hardy Lightweight add to reconstructing the continuity andintegrity of fishing with a cane rod. (But I also use only natural flymaterials and have a preference for fishing two wets at once.) Hope that helps you think your way to a solution you find satisfying, --Mark Freed I like the Hardy Uniquas with 8'0"+ cane rods. They're heavier than theLightweights so they balance the bigger guys better. Generally run $100- 150on the used lists. --Rich from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 2 14:13:37 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug In a message dated 10/2/97 5:58:06 AM, you wrote: Don, My experience is much the same as Terry's. I started out using theGarrison schedule and found it was not quite enough time in my oven. Afew ofthe rods had a tendency toward taking sets in the tip. It's annoying, ofcourse, but I can't say the casting performance has suffered noticeablycompared to my later rods. I think you have a point, but I'll keep oncooking, also.BTW, it's BAH! Humbug! Scrooge is my favorite curmudgeon, lets not turnhiminto a shepherd. :-) ---- Tom from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Oct 2 15:12:38 1997 Subject: Re: TOASTED CANE Terence Ackland wrote: I have just finished trying out a flamed type of heat treatment with ascrap of cane 6 ft long and about 3/4 wide . I used an alcohol burnerto get a good heat and worked 8 ins in from one end. As I heated the 8in section and it started to burn and the moisture did bubble from theend. I stopped flaming when the moisure stopped an the cane lookedvisually like the flamed rods I have seen.I let the cane cool for 30 mins and then proceeded to bend the flamedportion until it broke. It broke with a very even break and the twobroken ends looked as if the lignin had broken down. The fibers werevery brush like and seemed to have no binder. When I broke the oppositeend of the strip that had not been heat treated the cane fractured withlots of long splinters.I am not an expert on flaming cane and would like some imput as to whatcan be expected from fracturing a piece of over cooked cane.TerryThe flaming must be very hot and very fast. The goal being to flame theoutside but avoid penetration beyond 4 or 5 thou. After this the caneshould separatee the same as any other tempered cane. Whatever themethod.Zimny from JCZIMNY@dol.net Thu Oct 2 15:12:55 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Q&A Terence Ackland wrote: John Zimny wrote: Don,sure does. You can also see the workmanship in a perfect glue lineandshort nodes which you cannot get with a flamed finish.TerryIn this last statement, you are incorrect. I flame most of my rods andIdo not think you will find a visible glue line.John Zimny John,What I meant was that if you do not flame you must have a perfect glueline . With flaming you can get away with a little less than perfect.Young developed this technique to hide bad cane and joints that were,-well.I am not inplying that is why you flameHow is the new beveller going? I was getting a little worried, you havenot posted for a while. You still have all your fingers?Hi,I haven't posted because I've been building. 18 rods this year. New beveler is still in shakedown. I need to come by some set-up jigs.Also maple is a poor material for patterns. I'm still playing with them.My fingers are all here and should remain so.RegardsJohn from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 2 15:13:00 1997 (205.236.248.167) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug Don Andersen wrote: Guys, Heat treat if you must - then tell me and others how you proved thatitmade the cane any stiffer. I heat treat and do it like Terry for thecolorand just maybe there may be something to the whole heat treatingthing.While I haven't totally discounted the effects, I haven't been able to devise a test where the heat treated cane shows any change fromuntreatedcane. There are folks on this list that will emphatically tell you innouncertain terms that if you don't heat treat, you are building aninferiorfishing pole. When they share the results of the tests they have donetoarrive @ their conclusion, I guess I might buy into the usefulness ofheattreating. Till then I guess I just like a honey blonde. God, I hope Ilikehoney blondes - I married one. If you must heat treat, you must be aware that the moisture effectsarereversed in the matter of days unless you get a moisture barrier onthe rodimmediately. So, I heat treat after the final planning and coat therodwith the best plastic finish I can find as soon as possible after heat treating. Plastic is best by test to stop moisture inclusion. [ SeeTerry'spost on the coating tested by the Forest Labs. Plastic beats mostotherfinishes except for wax hands down.] All the best in time/temp. and hopefully someone will devise adefinitivetest, Don [still enthused over honey blondes] Andersen Don,you have just said it all, my findings exactly. I think the phrase 'heattreatment' is misleading, 'moisture removal' is more accurate,Adhesives like urac also contain moisture so the wrapped blank willbenefit from from some heat. Those using white glue are on their own.pva contains much miosture and has little heat resistance. Tell us about honey blonds Don, I am getting tired of all this rodmakingcrap!Terry from rcurry@jlc.net Thu Oct 2 18:38:06 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09329 for Subject: Re: Matching Reels with Rods Patrick,I like the old Pfleugers -- Progress, Four Brothers, and the earlyMedalists. However, a trade this summer netted me a Ballan, and whilethe sound of a Buick gnashing gears (the Pfleuger) has nostalgic value,the sonorous purr of the Ballan is very appealing also. The PfleugerMedalists (U.S. made) have the added touch of a hollow arbor and a hole As a further note I will add, that listen as I might, I didn't hear myreel scream once this season. Once I thought I did, as I stumbled indeep water while wading some fast water, but on reflection it may nothave been my reel screaming.Best regards,Reed Patrick Allen wrote: Recently on this list there was discussion about matching a reel with arodto balance the outfit for casting purposes. I was wondering if anyonehasinformation on what brands/types of reels are most used with canerods? Isthere a "traditional" reel that tends to get used with cane rods, or arepeople buying Sage reels and using them with cane rods? I confess myignorance here and thank all in advance who respond. Patrick from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Thu Oct 2 19:09:23 1997 BAA02517 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 01:12:52+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Sets & Delamination Gentlemen, Two questions on restoration, 1. If a rod has a set, what is the best way to remove it? I have heard various theories from pinning it to a board in the set required, to heating it to take the set out. What is the best method? 2. How bad should a rod be before it needs breaking down in to sixths and re-gluing? What are the characteristics of a rod coming apart ( other than visibly delaminating ). Will many old rods need this? I have a fear of taking decent old rods and making garden canes of them. regards Simon from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Oct 2 20:12:51 1997 Subject: Re: Location of Dip Tube I, too live in No. Va. and if I'm going to work under high humidity I use adehumidifier in the shop and an air conditioner. I try to keep the relativehumidity below 60%-yes my dip tube is under controlled temp. andhumidity.Hope this helps,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Oct 2 20:14:25 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Why Graphite is Juuuuust Fine - now Silk lines Refinished Reed,Thanks for the silk line recipee-now I have a place to use tung oil sinceI'll no longer use it for rod finishes.Hank. from WDHCJL@aol.com Thu Oct 2 21:24:44 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug In a message dated 97-10-02 12:11:39 EDT, SalarFly@aol.com writes: made the cane any stiffer. I made a butt section with no heat treating at all. When bent it heldthe bend for 10 minutes and then slowly returned to straight. I don'tthink I want to fish with a rod like that. Darryl Hayashida I join the chorus...heat treat, go with what works...ask at the time of anorder if your client wants a "new world order" rod, check the answer!doug from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Oct 2 22:58:58 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Bah humbug At 22:24 02/10/97 -0400, you wrote:In a message dated 97-10-02 12:11:39 EDT, SalarFly@aol.com writes: made the cane any stiffer. I made a butt section with no heat treating at all. When bent it heldthe bend for 10 minutes and then slowly returned to straight. I don'tthink I want to fish with a rod like that. Darryl Hayashida Darryl, Did you build a second butt heat treated and compare the results? If youdecide to do this test attempt to make both butts from the same culm andintermingle the strips as I did when I did my testing. I couldn't find anyreal difference. In fact most of the strips heat treated various ways [memory strike me that I did five strips heat treated and one not] werepoorer in both strength and recovery after stressing than the untreatedone. Who knows, on your single sample, your result certainly could havevaried from mine. I join the chorus...heat treat, go with what works...ask at the time of anorder if your client wants a "new world order" rod, check the answer!doug Doug, I'm lost - what is a "new world rod". And heat treat, join the chorus, gowith what works - - - how did you arrive @ that conclusion. Have you doneany testing? I sure am perplexed by the results I got. My results wereconfirmed my another rod maker on the NW coast. Boy, I sure would like tosee the results of your tests. Please post. Don from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Oct 2 23:38:28 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Bah humbug In a message dated 97-10-02 23:59:51 EDT, you write: Did you build a second butt heat treated and compare the results? If youdecide to do this test attempt to make both butts from the same culmandintermingle the strips as I did when I did my testing. I couldn't find anyreal difference. Sure did. Flamed the other half of the culm, made a butt section and likedthe stiff and springy action, so went on to make a complete rod. Still fish with it. Darryl Hayashida from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Oct 3 02:05:51 1997 (CEST) ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:06:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug ----------Terry wrote Don,you have just said it all, my findings exactly. I think the phrase 'heattreatment' is misleading, 'moisture removal' is more accurate,Adhesives like urac also contain moisture so the wrapped blank willbenefit from from some heat. Those using white glue are on their own.pva contains much miosture and has little heat resistance. Tell us about honey blonds Don, I am getting tired of all this rodmakingcrap!Terry PVA guys are on their own. Yep, and we excel when it comes to verticalpleasures. What I mean is that we have to be more thorough, when itcomestoplaning. Explanation: 3304) Itcontains 52% fluid and 48% drystuff. According to the maker, it has nofillingproperties whatsoever, if a strong bond is required. Advantages: Easy and cheap to use, only very thin layer requiredYou can glue up a rod, and 5 minutes later concentrate on thehoney blondes, as tools and hands are cleansed with water.Immensly strong glueing, when used correctlyDos not, to my best knowledge, influence the action of the rod. Disadvantages: Less than perfect planing means weak rod, that will eventually crack up.Low heat resistance. Undoing a twist in a rod is risky businessRequires varnish as topcoat on the rod - no tung oil Absolutely demanded: Straight planing, since no filling properties whatsoever. Before all of you epoxy guys start sinking my boat, please note:A friend of mine once submerged a rod, glued up with this glue,completely in water. After a fortnight, it still did not split up, buthad to be violently taken apart. In my fishingclub, this glue has beenused for more than 25 years of rodbuilding - and no failures havebeen reported.( We do not use tung oil) So there you have it. Now fire away. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen P.S. I like chestnut better than honey blonde, so each to his own. from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Oct 3 02:13:43 1997 (CEST) ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:13:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Heat treating - Humbug? Re. glueing Terry claimed pva guys on their own In my reply I forgot to note, that the submerged rod hadno topcoat Regards Carsten from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Oct 3 03:10:42 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA20236 for; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:11:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Sets & Delamination ----------Simon wrote Gentlemen, Two questions on restoration, 1. If a rod has a set, what is the best way to remove it? I have heard various theories from pinning it to a board in the setrequired, to heating it to take the set out. What is the best method? 2. How bad should a rod be before it needs breaking down in to sixths and re-gluing? What are the characteristics of a rod coming apart ( other than visibly delaminating ). Will many old rods need this? I have a fear of taking decent old rods and making garden canes of them. regards Simon Simon If the set is but small, dont do anything. Old rods should not, IMHOallwaysbe renovated into looking like new rods. Still if You want the set to be straightend: check out why the set isthere.If it's a question of many fishing hours, You can use heat, but beware. Toomuch heat, and the rod will be scorched and/or come apart. Try using ahairdrier. If originality is not the main question, and your hand shakes when itcomesto heating: In case of set in the tip, cut off the guides, use thehairdrier in orderto take of the tiptop, and put it all back, reversed 180 degrees. Gofishing, andthe set will, eventually, dissappear. If the set is caused by delaminating, try injecting thinned glue with averythin syringe. Bind it up, the cords being placed rignt next to each other.Let it dry for a week, and then try casting/fishing. I suggest You readGarri-sons book, as there is a chapter on how to renovate/repair. Example: I once had a customer, who bought an old Hardy rod at an auction.The next day he accidently stepped on it and broke 3 of the splits, some 8inches from the tip. The remainder 3 splits were delaminated. I used thesyringe and needle method, as described in Garrisons book. The rod stillfishes. All praise due to Mr. Garrison. Taking apart a whole rod: If it is allready delaminated, by all means trytorepair it, but beware: You have to get rid of ALL glue on the splits. Thiscalls for some scraping, so dust off Your planing form and use it to copythe taper of the rod. Put in the splits and scrape oh so carefully - but ONLY scrape away the glue, or You'll end up with a completely dif-ferent rod, once You have re-glued it. Judged on my own meagre abilitiesI'd only give it a fifty-fifty chance of succeeding. Morale: Try the easiest way first. If You fail, it does the least harm.Practiceon some old ruined rods before starting up on good rods. Allways considerif You are ruining more than repairing. Have respect for originality butdon'twalk away. The rod may be useless already. You guys out there: Rodbuilding gets a lot of space, renovating much less.Please, comment on this. Best regards Carsten from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Oct 3 07:20:53 1997 Subject: Lost rod This is intended for East coast list members. The 6'9" one piece rod BillFink and myself donated to TU has been lost or stolen, apparently whiletheowner was fishing the Yellow Breeches in PA. I suspect the owner simplyleftthe rod in it's aluminum case outside his truck and drove away, butanythingcould have happened. The rod is marked "Fink & Smithwick TU Special" ontheshaft. We will be contacting fly shops and friends in the area, any helpwould be appreciated. Needless to say, the guy who lost it is very upset.One clone of this rod exists, won the year before by Dick Jones ofAllentown,PA from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Fri Oct 3 12:40:51 1997 1997 17:40:43 UT 10:40:45 -0700 Subject: test -- do not read Subject: Time: 12:52 PMOFFICE MEMO test -- do not read Date: 10/3/97 this is only a test from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 3 13:37:59 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug In a message dated 97-10-03 01:17:24 EDT, you write: you have just said it all, my findings exactly. I think the phrase 'heattreatment' is misleading, 'moisture removal' is more accurate, Heat treatment is the more accurate term, because heat isbeing used to treat the cane. Moisture removal could be putting thecane in dry place for a period of time or even the vacuum treatmentthat was mentioned a little while ago. If all you are looking for ismoisture removal, perhaps some of the chemists on the list cansuggest a way to remove moisture chemically without using heat. Small section about glues deleted... Tell us about honey blonds Don, I am getting tired of all this rodmakingcrap!Terry This is a rodmakers list. What did you expect to find here? Darryl Hayashida from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 3 15:05:56 1997 (205.236.248.227) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-03 01:17:24 EDT, you write: you have just said it all, my findings exactly. I think the phrase'heattreatment' is misleading, 'moisture removal' is more accurate, Heat treatment is the more accurate term, because heat isbeing used to treat the cane. Moisture removal could be putting thecane in dry place for a period of time or even the vacuum treatmentthat was mentioned a little while ago. If all you are looking for ismoisture removal, perhaps some of the chemists on the list cansuggest a way to remove moisture chemically without using heat. Small section about glues deleted... Tell us about honey blonds Don, I am getting tired of all thisrodmakingcrap!Terry This is a rodmakers list. What did you expect to find here? Darryl Hayashida Sir, I do not think that flaming cane should be called heat treatment.I would prefer 'partial incineration'- a far more accurate term also.Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Oct 3 15:41:09 1997 (205.236.248.189) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Bah humbug SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-02 23:59:51 EDT, you write: Did you build a second butt heat treated and compare the results? Ifyoudecide to do this test attempt to make both butts from the sameculm andintermingle the strips as I did when I did my testing. I couldn'tfind anyreal difference. Sure did. Flamed the other half of the culm, made a butt section andlikedthe stiff and springy action, so went on to make a complete rod. Stillfishwith it. Darryl Hayashida Sir,the stiff and springy action only lasts as long as there is no moisturein the cane.Moisture is picked up from the atmosphere the moment you take the cane from the oven or remove the flame. The stiffness is not permanent unlessit is sealed.Nothing magical happens to bamboo when you heat it, it is still ligninand cellulose (and carbon if you flame)Going back to the FPL ' Encyclopedia of Wood (lignin cellulose) thereis an interesting section on the adverse effect of too much heat ontimber. This makes interesting reading for those thinking about flamingtheir cane.Terry from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 3 16:05:05 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Baa humbug In a message dated 97-10-03 16:08:52 EDT, you write: I would prefer 'partial incineration'- a far more accurate term also.Terry Only if you overdo it. Darryl Hayashida from mrj@seanet.com Fri Oct 3 18:39:23 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09762 for Subject: test disregard -- ;lkjMartin Jensen from stpete@netten.net Fri Oct 3 22:26:45 1997 cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA16972 for; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:00:26 -0500 Subject: New guy searching for used / excess tools, equipment Any of you old hands know of sources for decent to good quality tools orequipment for rodmaking, I'd be glad to hear from you. I'm looking fora nice block plane, planing forms, scrapers, pulleys, motor fordiptubes, etc. If you know of any former students or associates whowish to part with decent tools and supplies, e-mail me atstpete@netten.net as I'd like to purchase some equipment. Thanks, Rick from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 3 23:52:13 1997 ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - Times/Temps. To everyone who responded, thanks very much. And Don, I will take youradvice. I also like the blond canes so I want enough oven time to get agood rod but not enough to darken the cane to much. Again, thanks to all. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:20 AM 10/2/97, you wrote:Onis wrote and asked: I'm hearing what sounds like some over cooking and also what soundslikesome effects that might be due to under cooking. I am still unclear whatthe minimum heat treating time is(maybe it IS zero) and neither do Ihave afeel of how much cooking weakens the cane. I would expect some sortofcurves when strength, stiffness, elasticity, memory and/or etc. areplottedagainst heat treating time and/or temperature but I have no idea whatthelimits are. I expect you experienced builders have a pretty good ideawhatthis is. If some of you have opinions on what these limits are and wouldlike to share with us beginners, it sure would be appreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comAt 09:27 PM 10/1/97, you wrote: Onis, A lot of builders use about 350 F >375 F from 15>60 minutes.A starting point might be 365F over 20 minutes. Try this to start. Youwillbe within the ballpark. As far as plotting the temp/time relationship against memory, elasticityorother criteria; no one to my knowledge has successfully determined justwhat is the best temp./time thing. Like Tony says, it's a personal thing. Don from flyfisher@CIRCLE.NET Sat Oct 4 00:00:22 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10136; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: New guy searching for used / excess tools, equipment stpete wrote: Any of you old hands know of sources for decent to good quality tools orequipment for rodmaking, I'd be glad to hear from you. I'm looking fora nice block plane, planing forms, scrapers, pulleys, motor fordiptubes, etc. If you know of any former students or associates whowish to part with decent tools and supplies, e-mail me atstpete@netten.net as I'd like to purchase some equipment. I don't have anything for you, but I wanted to add myself to your plea tools and the form is on order. I'd appreciate any help. Thanks! Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from flyfisher@circle.net Sat Oct 4 00:09:49 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10199 for ; Subject: Glueing,Heat Treating, Varnishing I haven't even started my first rod, so pardon my inexperience, but whatare the times involved between glueing up the blank then heat treatingthen varnishing? It seams to me that you have to allow the glue to dry(24-48 hours?) then heattreat. So after that do you put the rod in thevarnish hot or wait till it cools? I'd think that hot would be betterif the varnish won't set up from the heat. That way the rod would haveless of a chance of absorbing moisture from the air and, if it was goingto absorb anything from cooling, it would have to be the varnish. Like I said, I haven't built one yet. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from jbr842@airmail.net Sat Oct 4 01:35:12 1997 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.203) with smtp for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Terence Ackland wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-09-30 03:04:18 EDT, you write: There is a lot to be said for the longer rod in terms of linecontrol,which is especially important in nymphing, I'm told. When youconsiderthe weight of the human arm, extended, as Tom suggested to controldrift, I would think that a 9' or 10' cane rod would sure feel lightbycomparison. Reed: Would not this be an ideal situation for hollow building? Donewithcare, walls can be taken down to quite thin dimensions and such rodsdefinitly are lighter in hand.RTyree Richard,North Americans do no generally need long rods, rather than cast to thefish they prefer to wade out and drop it under the fishes nose. The British tend to fish from the bank so have to use a longer rod tokeep more line in the air.This is an observation and not a criticism.Terry Terry, In your opinion does this indicate that, weight considerationsdiscounted, the fact that Len Codella and Martin Keene get much less fora given maker's 9' rod than for one of his 8' rods of like quality isprimarily a matter of fashion rather than function and did this comeabout as a result of our almost morbid desire for cane to compete (nowwe bring back the weight considerations) with carbon fiber rods'relatively bantam weights? I ask this as a user rather than builder ofcane rods who is more interested in the esthetics of the bamboo and themarvelous tactile sensations involved in fishing the rods than inacquiring them for investment. I hope my fishing Buds on this list,Jerry Johnson and Jim Fillpot, don't find this question too esoteric foran old cop to be putting forth, but I'm only two years into fishing caneand am facinated beyond all reason. I only wish trout streams weren'tsuch a rarity in Dallas. Thanks for your observations,Jim Bryan from jbr842@airmail.net Sat Oct 4 01:35:15 1997 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.203) with smtp for Subject: Re: Powell Rod Co. Don DeLoach wrote: Guys, investment company. I was wondering what this will mean for their caneroddept. Does anyone know who is their head rodmaker and are their newercane rodsany good? I didn't even know they still offered cane rods till I visitedtheweb site last month. Dr. Don Dr. Don, I know this is too weird to imagine, but as I was driving home from workthis morning, I was wondering the same thing and thinking of postingthis same question as to the quality of the current Powell rods(absolutely true!!!!). This came about as the result of my ongoing loveaffair with a brand new 8', two tip, 5/6 Powell rod with manyintermediates that I can pick up at what seems to be a good price.Perhaps you are a psychic rather than a psychiatrist and should becalled Swami Don......I'll be interested in what he opinion poll on thePowells reveals. Officer Jim from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Sat Oct 4 08:40:37 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Sat, 04 Oct 97 09:38:30 EDT Subject: Re: Glueing,Heat Treating, Varnishing Donald, heat treating generally precedes final planing, because the removalof moisture tends to reduce the size of the splines. Obviously, if you didit the other way around, you would end up with undersized splines. Gluing,of course, must come after final planing, so the sequence is heat-treating,final planing, gluing.I use heat-set epoxy to glue (though there are other alternatives),which means that it gets four hours at 235 deg. F after I have glued it. Italso means I have to sand the binding cord off before I dip the rod invarnish. That requires considerable time, probably on hour per section.The section is quite cool by the time I get done with that. Finally, inorder to avoid marring the finish in the processes, I set the ferrules,build the handle and reel seat, and wrap the quides before I varnish.Your observation about moisture re-entry is a good one. It is aproblem. I am in the process of experiementing with leaving the glued,sanded blank in the oven at 100deg F while I'm working on it. (I installeda pilot light on the oven to indicate the very lowest possible setting atwhich electricity still flows through the circuit.) I've also thought about keeping the varnished rod in a heatedchanber (perhaps the oven at 1oo deg F for a couple of days/weeks to dryitout. I have a difficulty imagining anything you could ( well, would wantto) put on a rod that would prevent it from eventually coming intoequillibrum with the environment. If that is the case, one implication isthat the conditions of storage long after production is important. SOme ofthese problems are mitigated in my case by my preference for a sloweractionrod. I like Leonards, for example, in which case moisture re-entry doesn'tpose such a problem, although long-term straightness probably still does. Just a couple of observations to augment your own thinking, Mark Freed At 01:04 AM 10/4/97 -0400, you wrote:I haven't even started my first rod, so pardon my inexperience, but whatare the times involved between glueing up the blank then heat treatingthen varnishing? It seams to me that you have to allow the glue to dry(24-48 hours?) then heattreat. So after that do you put the rod in thevarnish hot or wait till it cools? I'd think that hot would be betterif the varnish won't set up from the heat. That way the rod would haveless of a chance of absorbing moisture from the air and, if it was goingto absorb anything from cooling, it would have to be the varnish. Like I said, I haven't built one yet. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from bokstrom@axionet.com Sat Oct 4 09:13:49 1997 Subject: Heat treating: ----------Much healthy speculation around here about the chemical or physicalresultsof heat treating but so far, no facts. Here is another excerpt from myPh.D. contact's reply. The conditions described were 325 degrees F. for 15to 25 minutes. I thank you for your interest in my work and for the interest inthe subject matter in general. It is my opinion that the conditions youdescribe cause some changes in the lignin chemistry. The key word is "opinion", but from his extensive research on lignin Igive his opinion a lot of weight. Perhaps one day, if the guys I'm houndingdon't revolt, we'll learn what really happens. John from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Oct 4 09:45:47 1997 Subject: Re: Glueing,Heat Treating, Varnishing At 08:40 04/10/97 -0500, Mark wrote: Donald, heat treating generally precedes final planing, because the removalof moisture tends to reduce the size of the splines. Obviously, if you didit the other way around, you would end up with undersized splines. Gluing,of course, must come after final planing, so the sequence is heat-treating,final planing, gluing. To add to Mark comments: You can go directly to final plane dimensionpriorto heat treating if you offset your intended dimension a couple of thou. toallow for the shrinkage of the cane during heat treating. Untempered canetends to plane a tad easier and therefore you sharpen the blades less.Further, I glue 2 hours after heat treating [day 1], leave in a heatedcabinet to cure [day 2&3], strip the wrapping cord [day4], mount ferrules,handle, reel seat, tip top, test mount guides and straighten [day 4], dipthe rod [ day 5]. Between the activities, I place the rod in a heat cabinetthat operates about 100F. Alberta is cold and dry in the winter and wekeepthe house @ 45% @ 70F. Within the cabinet, the humidity is much less.Mostbuilders go through the intermediate set of a rough plane then heattreatment then final plane. Several of the books written on the subjectusethis method. Tis your choice - by either method, you won't have a lot oftrouble. Be forewarned though that the cane within the finish is stillgoing to suck up some atmospheric moisture. How much, who knows. Maytake afew years but it'll happen. Likely the only way to prevent the moistureuptake is to keep the rod between uses submerged in a regenerateddesiccantof top quality. A real pain. You'll notice that we occasionally get carried away on this list by ourpassion. Each of us are to some degree self taught and have strongopinionson just how things should be done. Most of these opinions are the result ofprocesses or experiments that we have undertaken to prove to ourselves[andconvince/inform others] of our experiences. For the host of us, thebuilding of cane rods is a learning curve that just won't quit. Have fun, Don Andersen I use heat-set epoxy to glue (though there are other alternatives),which means that it gets four hours at 235 deg. F after I have glued it. Italso means I have to sand the binding cord off before I dip the rod invarnish. That requires considerable time, probably on hour per section.The section is quite cool by the time I get done with that. Finally, inorder to avoid marring the finish in the processes, I set the ferrules,build the handle and reel seat, and wrap the quides before I varnish.Your observation about moisture re-entry is a good one. It is aproblem. I am in the process of experiementing with leaving the glued,sanded blank in the oven at 100deg F while I'm working on it. (I installeda pilot light on the oven to indicate the very lowest possible setting atwhich electricity still flows through the circuit.) I've also thought about keeping the varnished rod in a heatedchanber (perhaps the oven at 1oo deg F for a couple of days/weeks to dryitout. I have a difficulty imagining anything you could ( well, would wantto) put on a rod that would prevent it from eventually coming intoequillibrum with the environment. If that is the case, one implication isthat the conditions of storage long after production is important. SOmeofthese problems are mitigated in my case by my preference for a sloweractionrod. I like Leonards, for example, in which case moisture re-entrydoesn'tpose such a problem, although long-term straightness probably still does. Just a couple of observations to augment your own thinking, Mark Freed At 01:04 AM 10/4/97 -0400, you wrote:I haven't even started my first rod, so pardon my inexperience, but whatare the times involved between glueing up the blank then heat treatingthen varnishing? It seams to me that you have to allow the glue to dry(24-48 hours?) then heattreat. So after that do you put the rod in thevarnish hot or wait till it cools? I'd think that hot would be betterif the varnish won't set up from the heat. That way the rod would haveless of a chance of absorbing moisture from the air and, if it was goingto absorb anything from cooling, it would have to be the varnish. Like I said, I haven't built one yet. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Oct 4 12:44:58 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA16561 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Jim,See below:Jim Bryan wrote:Terry, In your opinion does this indicate that, weight considerationsdiscounted, the fact that Len Codella and Martin Keene get much less fora given maker's 9' rod than for one of his 8' rods of like quality isprimarily a matter of fashion rather than function and did this comeabout as a result of our almost morbid desire for cane to compete (nowwe bring back the weight considerations) with carbon fiber rods'relatively bantam weights? Yes. Weight considerations obviously aren't discounted (but they helpprovide discounts to such as I). Twenty years of hype from the makers ofgraphite rods and their minions in the publishing industry on thevirtues of light weight ... that has to have some effect. I use whatmany would consider to be "heavy" rods, because they weigh a few ouncesmore than graphite. A 16 oz. hammer weighs a few ounces more than abradhammer, but I know which one I would want to use all day for framing.The weight (mass) can actually work for you. I do not find it fun to usea light, stiff, fast rod for 30 - 40 foot casts. Too much work. Give mea 9' semi-parabolic cane and I can relax and enjoy. Can you do asemi-parabolic in graphite ... I don't think so. Am I ranting? It just seems like the weight fetish is another FF religion like Catchand Release (this is not a bait, just a comparison), based on the sameprinciples, Madison Avenue's desire to sell more. Shave another halfounce off and tell the rubes that they are using old technology.Now I'm ranting. Best regards,ReedI ask this as a user rather than builder ofcane rods who is more interested in the esthetics of the bamboo and themarvelous tactile sensations involved in fishing the rods than inacquiring them for investment. I hope my fishing Buds on this list,Jerry Johnson and Jim Fillpot, don't find this question too esoteric foran old cop to be putting forth, but I'm only two years into fishing caneand am facinated beyond all reason. I only wish trout streams weren'tsuch a rarity in Dallas. Thanks for your observations,Jim Bryan from flyfisher@circle.net Sat Oct 4 13:28:11 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07993 for ; Subject: Re: Glueing,Heat Treating, Varnishing Don Andersen wrote: To add to Mark comments: You can go directly to final plane dimensionpriorto heat treating if you offset your intended dimension a couple of thou.toallow for the shrinkage of the cane during heat treating. Untemperedcanetends to plane a tad easier and therefore you sharpen the blades less.Further, I glue 2 hours after heat treating [day 1], leave in a heatedcabinet to cure [day 2&3], Which glue do you use? Many of the glues I've looked at have specifictemperature ranges for a proper set. (I'm sure you already know that!) Do you let the glue set before putting it in the heating cabinet andwhat temp do you keep it at? strip the wrapping cord [day4], mount ferrules,handle, reel seat, tip top, test mount guides and straighten [day 4], dipthe rod [ day 5]. Between the activities, I place the rod in a heat cabinetthat operates about 100F. Alberta is cold and dry in the winter and wekeepthe house @ 45% @ 70F. Within the cabinet, the humidity is much less.Mostbuilders go through the intermediate set of a rough plane then heattreatment then final plane. Several of the books written on the subjectusethis method. Tis your choice - by either method, you won't have a lot oftrouble. Be forewarned though that the cane within the finish is stillgoing to suck up some atmospheric moisture. How much, who knows. Maytake afew years but it'll happen. Likely the only way to prevent the moistureuptake is to keep the rod between uses submerged in a regenerateddesiccantof top quality. A real pain. I know that a total vapor barrier is impossible, but when the rod soaksup the varnish it would use up space that would otherwise be occupied byair or water from the air. If the rod were relatively moisture free,then the varnish would fill more of that space. Correct? You'll notice that we occasionally get carried away on this list by ourpassion. Each of us are to some degree self taught and have strongopinionson just how things should be done. Most of these opinions are the resultofprocesses or experiments that we have undertaken to prove to ourselves[andconvince/inform others] of our experiences. For the host of us, thebuilding of cane rods is a learning curve that just won't quit. If I wasn't already a fanatic about fishing, I wouldn't be trying tobuild a bamboo rod! I needed another expensive hobby (Life-style?) likeI need a hole in my head! Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Oct 4 14:21:44 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper CATCH AND RELEASE is not a religion it's a matter of mathematics. If youcatch and keep you deplete a valuable rescuers and they wont be their tocatch them the next time. I've found the best place to catch fish to EATor prove my manhood is at safeway, it doesn't take either cane orgraphite rod, and all you have to do is cast a green lure or fly(usually a very short cast) and you land them already gutted andfilleted. There is more fishermen and women than fish these days andwhere I live we've already seen a horrendous cut in number and size ofall fish - salmon, trout and steelhead (NW). ----------From: Reed F. Curry[SMTP:rcurry@jlc.net]Sent: Saturday, October 04, 1997 10:48 AM Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Jim,See below:Jim Bryan wrote:Terry, In your opinion does this indicate that, weight considerationsdiscounted, the fact that Len Codella and Martin Keene get much lessfora given maker's 9' rod than for one of his 8' rods of like qualityisprimarily a matter of fashion rather than function and did this comeabout as a result of our almost morbid desire for cane to compete(nowwe bring back the weight considerations) with carbon fiber rods'relatively bantam weights? Yes. Weight considerations obviously aren't discounted (but they helpprovide discounts to such as I). Twenty years of hype from the makersofgraphite rods and their minions in the publishing industry on thevirtues of light weight ... that has to have some effect. I use whatmany would consider to be "heavy" rods, because they weigh a fewouncesmore than graphite. A 16 oz. hammer weighs a few ounces more than abradhammer, but I know which one I would want to use all day for framing.The weight (mass) can actually work for you. I do not find it fun tousea light, stiff, fast rod for 30 - 40 foot casts. Too much work. Givemea 9' semi-parabolic cane and I can relax and enjoy. Can you do asemi-parabolic in graphite ... I don't think so. Am I ranting? It just seems like the weight fetish is another FF religion like Catchand Release (this is not a bait, just a comparison), based on the sameprinciples, Madison Avenue's desire to sell more. Shave another halfounce off and tell the rubes that they are using old technology.Now I'm ranting. Best regards,ReedI ask this as a user rather than builder ofcane rods who is more interested in the esthetics of the bamboo andthemarvelous tactile sensations involved in fishing the rods than inacquiring them for investment. I hope my fishing Buds on this list,Jerry Johnson and Jim Fillpot, don't find this question too esotericforan old cop to be putting forth, but I'm only two years into fishingcaneand am facinated beyond all reason. I only wish trout streamsweren'tsuch a rarity in Dallas. Thanks for your observations,Jim Bryan from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Oct 4 14:37:17 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: moisture barrier You know the only parts of the rod that doesn't get some kind ofmoisture barrier finish on the rod is under the grip and reel seat. Iwonder if we shouldn't do like terry does and seal it in plastic andthen mount the grip,guides and ferrules on and varnish.We shouldprobably seal the reel seat in plastic and then varnish. Like a lot ofpeople I have a extreme dislike for plastic but it is probably the leasthydra scopic of all the sealing material available to us today. I have aold impregnated orvis that hasn't seemed to have taken up any moistureor noticeably lost it's action after about 20 years of fishing rivershere in the great (wet) NW. Just a RAINY Saturdays rambling and 2 cents. Patrick from domenic1@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 4 15:38:02 1997 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: FLAMING CANE Does anyone know how some builders(John Zimny comes to mind) achieveanextremely dark flame coloration on their rods.I have been doing allot of experimenting with flaming and notice that ifI flame the cane till' it's black,then I remove the enamel,the cane is not that dark.The only thing I can figure is these builders are leaving a certainamount of enamel on the strips.?Or maybe removing the enamel before flaming? Thanks,Domenic Croce from johnnatk@juno.com Sat Oct 4 18:32:01 1997 19:31:32 EDT Subject: Restoring Silk Fly Lines I found an old Olympic fly reel with a silk fly line on it at agarage sale today for $2.00 and I want to restore the line. I remember apast post that said the formula was 1 part Spar Varnish1 part turpentine8 parts boiled linseed oil How do I go about getting rid of all the old "gunk" on the line now? Usethe turpentine? Then once I put this formula on does it need anythingelse like the Red tin musclin? Thanks. John from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 4 18:59:51 1997 Subject: Seeking Herter's Information Over the past years I have been able to acquire several sets of theHerter's style planing forms - currently I have the 5 & 6 sidedcombinationand separate 6 & 4 sided forms. What I am asking for are copies of thepagesof their catalogs showing these forms. I thought I had a 1970 catalog - buthaven't been able to find it for a couple of years. Any Help????? Busy in the BasementWayne from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Oct 4 20:19:57 1997 Subject: WTD: Heddon reelseat parts I'm looking for a couple of Heddon black plastic buttcaps for Heddonplastic reelseats. Also a complete plastic reelseat. Any color spacer will do, to fit aModel 20 - so brown or reddish color would be best. But Beggers.... Ta, Don BurnsFlyfisher@cmix.com from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Oct 4 21:11:52 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA23389 for Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper Patrick,As I said, "not bait, just a comparison". I might add that you are asardent about your mathematics as some are about religions. I know I gethet up about Juridical Reciprocity, but cosines leave me cold.I don't want to waste good bandwidth by killing anyone's sacredcows,no one benefits from that, and it gets blood everywhere. I was onlyusing catch and release as a comparison --- the origins are the same as"light weight rods are better", that is strictly commercial, and mostpeople accept it at face value, without question. Now, Patrick, let'slet it rest there, or take it off the list. Okay, fellow caneenthusiast?Best regards,ReedCoffey, Patrick W wrote: CATCH AND RELEASE is not a religion it's a matter of mathematics. Ifyoucatch and keep you deplete a valuable rescuers and they wont be their tocatch them the next time. I've found the best place to catch fish to EATor prove my manhood is at safeway, it doesn't take either cane orgraphite rod, and all you have to do is cast a green lure or fly(usually a very short cast) and you land them already gutted andfilleted. There is more fishermen and women than fish these days andwhere I live we've already seen a horrendous cut in number and size ofall fish - salmon, trout and steelhead (NW). from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Oct 4 21:18:58 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA23493 for Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines John,It depends on how far gone the finish is, if it's just a little tacky,use a turps soaked rag to clean it a bit, and then put plenty of talcumpowder in a large paper bag, throw the line (loose) in and pretend it'sshake and bake. After the line is well coated and dry, run it throughyour hand using friction, removing excess talc. Apply Mucilin.If it is farther gone, mix up some lime water and soak the line for1/2hour. Then clean with turps and apply the varnish, etc. Finish with talcand Mucilin.(The above has worked for me, that's all I claim.)Best regards,ReedJohn R Natkevicius wrote: I found an old Olympic fly reel with a silk fly line on it at agarage sale today for $2.00 and I want to restore the line. I remember apast post that said the formula was 1 part Spar Varnish1 part turpentine8 parts boiled linseed oil How do I go about getting rid of all the old "gunk" on the line now? Usethe turpentine? Then once I put this formula on does it need anythingelse like the Red tin musclin? Thanks. John from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Sat Oct 4 21:30:44 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Sat, 04 Oct 97 22:28:38 EDT Subject: Leonard tapers Gentlemen, I've been in search of the taper for a Leonard 38L for some time. Ireally want to have a look specifically at the Letort series. There is alsosome indication that Leonard made a 38 1/2 L, though I can only find asingle reference to it in the literature. I would be very grateful ifsomeone could either provide me with either taper, or suggest where Imightbe able to find it. Does anyone have specific knowledge about how the Hunt seriesdiffered from the regular rods? I have heard from one source that it is inthe fittings alone, but i can't confirm that. Any help with these or other Leonard tapers would be quite welcome, --Mark Freed from WDHCJL@aol.com Sat Oct 4 21:52:47 1997 Subject: Catch & release To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and food supply. Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standard practice"? from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Oct 4 22:06:23 1997 Subject: Re:[2] Gluing, Varnishing At 14:27 04/10/97 -0400, Don Y. wrote: Which glue do you use? Many of the glues I've looked at have specifictemperature ranges for a proper set. (I'm sure you already know that!) Do you let the glue set before putting it in the heating cabinet andwhat temp do you keep it at?The glue product I use is Borden Company's"UF 109" a urea formaldehydeproduct which is similar to Urac 185. Both of these glues WILL NOT SETunless the temperature of the drying area is above about 80F. The dryingcabinet I use runs about 100F. Others have used from epoxies to whitecarpenters glue. Your choice. I won't presume to suggest what you mightuse. I've had good success with the Borden/Urac products. Others have not. I know that a total vapor barrier is impossible, but when the rod soaksup the varnish it would use up space that would otherwise be occupied byair or water from the air. Whoa there - is no evidence that the rod "soaks" up varnish. The varnish isa top coat. If the rod were relatively moisture free,then the varnish would fill more of that space. Correct? If you could get a varnish that you could soak the rod in while pulling avacuum on the container - you just might get some varnish within theinterspacial areas of the cane. Otherwise, its still a top coat. You'll notice that we occasionally get carried away on this list by ourpassion. Each of us are to some degree self taught and have strongopinionson just how things should be done. Most of these opinions are the resultofprocesses or experiments that we have undertaken to prove to ourselves[andconvince/inform others] of our experiences. For the host of us, thebuilding of cane rods is a learning curve that just won't quit. If I wasn't already a fanatic about fishing, I wouldn't be trying tobuild a bamboo rod! I needed another expensive hobby (Life-style?) likeI need a hole in my head! Know what you mean - went through the basement for the insurance folksawhile ago and was somewhat shocked to learn there was $ 40,000 infishing,rod building, library & fly tying equipment down there and that didn'tinclude the lathe. Only marriage/kids seem to be more expensive. What I would suggest is that you acquire either Wayne C's. book orGarrison's book and follow it like a religion. In either of them you can'treally go wrong. When you have a couple of rods under your belt, then tryto modify their techniques to suit yourself realizing that their techniquesare very personal/tried and true. Have fun, Don Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat Oct 4 22:18:56 1997 Subject: Re: [2] Catch & release At 22:52 04/10/97 -0400, you wrote:To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and food supply. Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? In Alberta there has been an extensive experiment looking @ the naturalvariables within a stream where angling is not allowed. This experimentisnow 15 years old and the results are surprising. The populations vary fromapprox. 100/mile to 900/mile within 2 years. These are naturaloccurrences.The fish do get larger allowing more mature fish to spawn therebyincreasing recruitment in the "good" years while no angling preserves thelarger fish in the poor years. Whether this would apply to the smokies Ihave no idea. But the natural variances is what really impressed me.In BC however, the recruitment in the lakes which will supportrecruitmentcan and will decimate the insect populations within a couple of years. Thesmokies support brook trout which have the unholy ability to be able tobreed anywhere. Could this cause an over-population? Who knows. It isn'tlikely that your gov't or mine will allow a stream to be closed to fishinglong enough to determine what is the actual carrying capacity. Don from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 4 23:24:40 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA20471 Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Over the past years I have been able to acquire several sets of theHerter's style planing forms - currently I have the 5 & 6 sidedcombinationand separate 6 & 4 sided forms. What I am asking for are copies of thepagesof their catalogs showing these forms. I thought I had a 1970 catalog - buthaven't been able to find it for a couple of years. Any Help????? Busy in the BasementWayne Hi Wayne, I, too, have the Herter's combination 5 sided / 6 sided planing form -- acquired it from Len Codella in about 1975. I used to buy a lot ofthings from Herter's in the 1969-1976 time frame...never saw any planingforms in the catalogs in those years (I think the forms are early 1960'sor late 1950's). Also have the Herter's rod binder ( from Codella, too). George Bourke from flyfisher@CIRCLE.NET Sat Oct 4 23:57:44 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14192 for ; Subject: Re: [2] Gluing, Varnishing Don Andersen wrote: I know that a total vapor barrier is impossible, but when the rod soaksup the varnish it would use up space that would otherwise be occupiedbyair or water from the air. Whoa there - is no evidence that the rod "soaks" up varnish. The varnishisa top coat. If you could get a varnish that you could soak the rod in while pulling avacuum on the container - you just might get some varnish within theinterspacial areas of the cane. Otherwise, its still a top coat. What about the O***s Impregnated cane rods? They say the varnish isn'ton the rod, it's in it. Are they full of O***s? What I would suggest is that you acquire either Wayne C's. book orGarrison's book and follow it like a religion. In either of them you can'treally go wrong. When you have a couple of rods under your belt, then tryto modify their techniques to suit yourself realizing that theirtechniquesare very personal/tried and true. I have Garrison's and I want to get Wayne's soon. Have fun, Already am and I haven't even gotten a start yet! :) Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Oct 5 00:14:04 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release In a message dated 97-10-04 22:53:42 EDT, you write: To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and food supply. Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? In the Sierra Mtns. where I fish the regs say you can keep ten morebrook trout under 8 inches over your 5 per day regular limit. I talkedto a game warden about this, and he called brook trout "fish cockaroaches". They breed so prolifically they soon over populateand exceed the available food supply. Your area might be in asimilar situation where culling a few fish would actually make itbetter for the remaining fish. Darryl Hayashida from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 5 02:57:59 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA27031 Subject: Re: Leonard tapers mark m. freed wrote: Gentlemen, I've been in search of the taper for a Leonard 38L for some time. Ireally want to have a look specifically at the Letort series. There isalsosome indication that Leonard made a 38 1/2 L, though I can only find asingle reference to it in the literature. I would be very grateful ifsomeone could either provide me with either taper, or suggest where Imightbe able to find it. Does anyone have specific knowledge about how the Hunt seriesdiffered from the regular rods? I have heard from one source that it isinthe fittings alone, but i can't confirm that. Any help with these or other Leonard tapers would be quitewelcome, --Mark Freed Hi Mark,The 1971 Leonard catalod describes the 50H as follows:A variation of the popular #50DF with a more powerful butt,oxidized mountings, and dardened bamboo to minimize reflection.The action is slightly faster than the 50DF.As for the Letort series, the catalogs I have (1971-3) only list the36L, 37L, 38L, 39L, and 40L.Sorry, I don't have any of the tapers you are looking for. George Bourke from emh@ccnet.com Sun Oct 5 04:37:22 1997 Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines John, I am not a silk line expert, but I put turpentine on a lintless rag andpull the line back and forth through it when the line the line gets gunky. Then do it again with a dry lintless rag and let the line dry. Then applysome talc and wipe it down again. I don't give it the full treatment ofvarnish turpentine and linseed oil very often, but I don't fish with a silkline much. I have never tried musclin on them. Now you need a bamboo rodand some gut leader to go with your reel and line. Ernie Harrison----------From: John R Natkevicius Subject: Restoring Silk Fly LinesDate: Saturday, October 04, 1997 4:31 PM I found an old Olympic fly reel with a silk fly line on it at agarage sale today for $2.00 and I want to restore the line. I remember apast post that said the formula was 1 part Spar Varnish1 part turpentine8 parts boiled linseed oil How do I go about getting rid of all the old "gunk" on the line now? Usethe turpentine? Then once I put this formula on does it need anythingelse like the Red tin musclin? Thanks. John from mrj@seanet.com Sun Oct 5 11:18:02 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14899 for Subject: Re: Catch & release WDHCJL@aol.com wrote: To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and food supply. Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? I'm wondering if they plant "put and take" fish there in the Smokies. Idon't see how leaving fish in the river to fend for themselves could bebad for the fisheries unless there was a lot of tinkering with thestream population by the fisheries dept. -- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Sun Oct 5 11:25:01 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15016 for Subject: Re: Catch & release addendum WDHCJL@aol.com wrote: To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and food supply. Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? In my last message I failed to take into account the Brook Trout. Thisis definitely a fish that (in most cases) would not respond well to C&Rpractices.-- Martin Jensen from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Oct 5 12:00:33 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release addendum In Oregon, my understanding from Fish and Wildlife biologists is that theywould prefer some harvesting of planted fish, depending on the speciesandriver system. Planters compete for the food source of natives, and if leftas all catch and release, would have a negetive impact on the native fish. Saying that, I do generally release most fish I catch, but a limitedharvest of the planters, at least around here, will be good for natives. Steelhead is the species I discussed with ODFW. OK, you are really luckyif you catch any steelhead, but keeping a non-native is not a crime, nor isit necessarily unethical. Back to rods, can you make a descent ferrule station without a lathe? Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Martin Jensen Subject: Re: Catch & release addendumDate: Sunday, October 05, 1997 9:25 AM WDHCJL@aol.com wrote: To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist" viewisthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It creates aproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and foodsupply.Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? In my last message I failed to take into account the Brook Trout. Thisis definitely a fish that (in most cases) would not respond well to C&Rpractices.-- Martin Jensen from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Sun Oct 5 12:50:17 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Sun, 05 Oct 97 13:48:10 EDT Subject: Re: Leonard tapers George,Thanks: that sheds some light on the differences, which, except forthe stronger butt, ARE basically cosmetic. --Mark At 09:41 PM 10/4/97 -0700, you wrote:mark m. freed wrote: Gentlemen, I've been in search of the taper for a Leonard 38L for some time. Ireally want to have a look specifically at the Letort series. There isalsosome indication that Leonard made a 38 1/2 L, though I can only find asingle reference to it in the literature. I would be very grateful ifsomeone could either provide me with either taper, or suggest where Imightbe able to find it. Does anyone have specific knowledge about how the Hunt seriesdiffered from the regular rods? I have heard from one source that it isinthe fittings alone, but i can't confirm that. Any help with these or other Leonard tapers would be quitewelcome, --Mark Freed Hi Mark,The 1971 Leonard catalod describes the 50H as follows:A variation of the popular #50DF with a more powerful butt,oxidized mountings, and dardened bamboo to minimize reflection.The action is slightly faster than the 50DF.As for the Letort series, the catalogs I have (1971-3) only list the36L, 37L, 38L, 39L, and 40L.Sorry, I don't have any of the tapers you are looking for. George Bourke from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Oct 5 12:52:21 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Greetings:Much has been said on the list over the last several months concerningheattreating. As I read the comments, the Garrison method is considered aminimum treatment and his rods to be blond. What puzzles me it thepictureon the jacket of the fine work of Martin J. Keane, "Classic Rods andRodmakers". The picture is of what looks to me like two Garrison rods,withvery dark bamboo. Although the picture appears to have been taken in deepshadow, the bamboo, when contrasted with the forward tips of the grips,whichappear to have been protected from soiling by varnish, still appears quitedark rather than blond. Any ideas, anyone? Regards,Richard from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Oct 5 12:53:52 1997 Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines In a message dated 97-10-05 05:42:11 EDT, you write: Greetings:Would someone please inform me as to what type of outlet sells talc? Wouldgreatly appreciate it.Thanks and Regards,Richard Tyree from mrj@seanet.com Sun Oct 5 13:20:12 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17147 for Subject: Re: Catch & release addendum Robert Clarke wrote: Back to rods, can you make a descent ferrule station without a lathe? I have made 8 rods with a file used on the ferrule station. On the first4 or 5 I think I got a bit of an angle introduced by accident. The lastthree rods have had a pretty good ferrule mounting. I just measure whereI want to file and take the same no. of strokes on each flat. I amgetting better now and am comfortable with my results with just a file.(not that I don't want a lathe).-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Sun Oct 5 13:23:28 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17205 for Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-05 05:42:11 EDT, you write: some talc and wipe it down again. >> Greetings:Would someone please inform me as to what type of outlet sells talc? Wouldgreatly appreciate it.Thanks and Regards,Richard Tyree What is talc? I assume the item in question is not "talcum powder" likein Johnson's and Johnson's.-- Martin Jensen from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Oct 5 13:28:11 1997 Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information The reason for the interest in the Herter information is that SteveSouthard and I and others are getting a little more serious aboutdisplayingsome of the many items of flyfishing and rodmaking antiquia that we have.The aon line display for the net perhaps at the Troutbum sight and perhapsrodmaking items at the rodmakers archives that Webmeister Jerry Fosterdoeswith such great flare.During my last stay in Grayrock I took over 300 slides of varying itemsand flies - they are out being scan to cd so that they can be brought intothe computer world. I would offer that if anyone had interest pieces thatthey might wish to share these items with those that might tour a 'webmuseum' . Several of us have seen many of these items but there are manywhohaven't. Chained to the WorkbenchWayne from WDHCJL@aol.com Sun Oct 5 14:09:17 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release In a message dated 97-10-05 12:22:13 EDT, you write: Actually Martin, There is no stocking (other than what took place in the40's). These are wild fish.doug from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Oct 5 14:31:43 1997 Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines In a message dated 97-10-05 14:26:43 EDT, you write: What is talc? I assume the item in question is not "talcum powder" likein Johnson's and Johnson's. Talc and talcum powder are the same thing except for the Johnson'sand Johnson's has some perfume added. Both are the mineral calledtalc finely ground up. Darryl Hayashida from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Oct 5 15:26:38 1997 ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: FLAMING CANE Domenic John uses his equivilant to a flame thrower to do it. Very hot for very short period of time. I believe it is a T7 tip with an air compressorhooked up to it - more power! It really lights up his neighborhood atnight. On Sat, 04 Oct 1997 16:37:12 -0400, Domenic P Croce wrote: Does anyone know how some builders(John Zimny comes to mind) achieveanextremely dark flame coloration on their rods.I have been doing allot of experimenting with flaming and notice that ifI flame the cane till' it's black,then I remove the enamel,the cane is not that dark.The only thing I can figure is these builders are leaving a certainamount of enamel on the strips.?Or maybe removing the enamel before flaming? Thanks,Domenic Croce Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Oct 5 15:33:29 1997Received: from ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:34:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Leonard tapers Mark You might look in the Best of the Planing Form. It has a Leonard 7' 38 taper in it. also 39 and 50 tapers in Don Anderson'sarticle. Gentlemen, I've been in search of the taper for a Leonard 38L for some time. Ireally want to have a look specifically at the Letort series. There is alsosome indication that Leonard made a 38 1/2 L, though I can only find asingle reference to it in the literature. I would be very grateful ifsomeone could either provide me with either taper, or suggest where Imightbe able to find it. Does anyone have specific knowledge about how the Hunt seriesdiffered from the regular rods? I have heard from one source that it is inthe fittings alone, but i can't confirm that. Any help with these or other Leonard tapers would be quitewelcome, --Mark Freed Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Oct 5 15:39:30 1997 ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:40:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines Richard Use baby powder - it is pure talc except when they addfragrence to it (which some anglers may prefer!). In a message dated 97-10-05 05:42:11 EDT, you write: some talc and wipe it down again. >> Greetings:Would someone please inform me as to what type of outlet sells talc? Wouldgreatly appreciate it.Thanks and Regards,Richard Tyree Regards Chris from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Sun Oct 5 15:50:56 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Sun, 05 Oct 97 16:48:37 EDT Subject: Re: Leonard tapers Chris, Thanks for the lead. As a matter of fact I already checked it out.Couldn't authenticate either the taper itself, or whether it was one of theLetort series. --mark At 04:36 PM 10/5/97 -0600, you wrote:Mark You might look in the Best of the Planing Form. It has aLeonard 7' 38 taper in it. also 39 and 50 tapers in Don Anderson'sarticle. Gentlemen, I've been in search of the taper for a Leonard 38L for some time. Ireally want to have a look specifically at the Letort series. There isalsosome indication that Leonard made a 38 1/2 L, though I can only find asingle reference to it in the literature. I would be very grateful ifsomeone could either provide me with either taper, or suggest where Imightbe able to find it. Does anyone have specific knowledge about how the Hunt seriesdiffered from the regular rods? I have heard from one source that it isinthe fittings alone, but i can't confirm that. Any help with these or other Leonard tapers would be quitewelcome, --Mark Freed Regards Chris from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Oct 5 15:54:04 1997 Subject: Address needed I apologize for the inconvience of the list but I need shipping addresses Jonathan Clarke - Twin Pines Rod Co Gary Dabrowski - Brookside Rod Co Thanks Wayne from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 5 16:08:11 1997 (205.236.248.179) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Greetings:Much has been said on the list over the last several months concerningheattreating. As I read the comments, the Garrison method is considered a minimum treatment and his rods to be blond. What puzzles me it thepictureon the jacket of the fine work of Martin J. Keane, "Classic Rods andRodmakers". The picture is of what looks to me like two Garrisonrods, withvery dark bamboo. Although the picture appears to have been taken indeepshadow, the bamboo, when contrasted with the forward tips of thegrips, whichappear to have been protected from soiling by varnish, still appearsquitedark rather than blond. Any ideas, anyone? Regards,Richard I have for a long time thought that the heat treatment times given inthe Garrison book was either a typo or his apprentice copied it downwrong.I have also seen that picture.Terry from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Sun Oct 5 16:37:03 1997 WAA08794 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:40:33+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Talc / Talcum Powder Strictly speaking its crystaline magnesium silicate, which is in the form of soft flat plates which make it a good dry lubricant. It should be available, without perfume, from any pharmacy. regards Simon from domenic1@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 5 16:45:04 1997 ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory TerryI have a Garrison 218 in my shop that someone sent me for repair,it is not by any means "blond".Garrison used propane gas to heat his oven without any thermostatcontrol. I heat treat as per "the book" and my rods come out with no color change atall.Blond in every sense of the word and never had one take a set.Domenic Terence Ackland wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Greetings:Much has been said on the list over the last several months concerningheattreating. As I read the comments, the Garrison method is considered a minimum treatment and his rods to be blond. What puzzles me it thepictureon the jacket of the fine work of Martin J. Keane, "Classic Rods andRodmakers". The picture is of what looks to me like two Garrisonrods, withvery dark bamboo. Although the picture appears to have been taken indeepshadow, the bamboo, when contrasted with the forward tips of thegrips, whichappear to have been protected from soiling by varnish, still appearsquitedark rather than blond. Any ideas, anyone? Regards,Richard I have for a long time thought that the heat treatment times given inthe Garrison book was either a typo or his apprentice copied it downwrong.I have also seen that picture.Terry from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Oct 5 16:52:24 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA04790 for Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information Wayne,I have a lot of older books on fly fishing, perhaps some bits of thosemight be scanned in. As well, I find the Herter's catalogue from 1941fascinating, only place I can order Junglecock necks for 75 cents, orsacred monkey skins.Best regards,ReedWayneCatt@aol.com wrote: The reason for the interest in the Herter information is that SteveSouthard and I and others are getting a little more serious aboutdisplayingsome of the many items of flyfishing and rodmaking antiquia that wehave. The and aon line display for the net perhaps at the Troutbum sight and perhapsrodmaking items at the rodmakers archives that Webmeister JerryFoster doeswith such great flare.During my last stay in Grayrock I took over 300 slides of varying itemsand flies - they are out being scan to cd so that they can be brought intothe computer world. I would offer that if anyone had interest pieces thatthey might wish to share these items with those that might tour a 'webmuseum' . Several of us have seen many of these items but there aremany whohaven't. Chained to the WorkbenchWayne from skyboss@ibm.net Sun Oct 5 17:28:20 1997 SMTP id WAA50394 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 199722:28:15 GMT Oct 1997 15:26:07 -0600 Subject: RE: Rodmaker Address Request =_NextPart_000_01BCD1A3.00A32EA0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD1A3.00A32EA0 Here are the addresses you requested with corresponding web pageaddresses. Jonathan Clarke Twin Pine Rod Company2800 4th StreetSt. Petersburg, FL 33704 1 800 882-5432or1 813 821-9800 e-mailjonrc@atlantic.net and web pagehttp://www.atlantic.net/~jonrc/ Brookside Rod Company37 Brook StreetNaugatuck, CT 06770-3101 Telephone203-729-1503 E-mailbrookside.rod@juno.com http://www.flyfish.com/rods.html -----Original Message----- Subject: Address needed I apologize for the inconvience of the list but I need shipping addresses Jonathan Clarke - Twin Pines Rod Co Gary Dabrowski - Brookside Rod Co Thanks Wayne ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD1A3.00A32EA0 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UkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAACoW ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD1A3.00A32EA0-- from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Sun Oct 5 17:45:26 1997 (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Catch & release type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-04 22:53:42 EDT, you write: To start with...this is passing on information as told to me...I fish the Smoky's extensively. The current "fisheries biologist"view isthat catch and release is actually bad for the smokies. It createsaproblem, balance wise, between stream size, population and foodsupply.Thisdoes not apply to all fisheries but any thoughts to our "standardpractice"? In the Sierra Mtns. where I fish the regs say you can keep ten morebrook trout under 8 inches over your 5 per day regular limit. I talked to a game warden about this, and he called brook trout "fishcockaroaches". They breed so prolifically they soon over populateand exceed the available food supply. Your area might be in asimilar situation where culling a few fish would actually make itbetter for the remaining fish. Darryl Hayashida I don't want to get into an extended dialogue on catch and release. But,I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brook trout as'cockroaches' is nothing more than a cockroach himself. Just 'cause aguy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing. Justtrying to keep things in perspective. Sincerely,Joe Loverti Loverti Cane Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 5 18:06:47 1997 (205.236.249.218) Subject: OUTTA HERE Guys,I have to sign off again, I have to try to catch up with things. We gotsome good discussions going which I feel sure has been constructive. Iam a little dissapointed that the generals of the list did not get tooinvolved with what I thought was meaningful to the craft. I guess youcan draw your own conclusions thereI have been a little greedy with the bandwidth by drawing guys in todiscussing what I find important to rodmakers instead of the usual 'best string and test curve' type of threads I shall get in touch with all the guys that contacted me off line withinthe next couple of days.Regards,Terry Ackland from Bopep@aol.com Sun Oct 5 18:45:11 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory The three Garrisons I've seen in person were a medium blonde, not as darkasKeane's book cover yet not as light as H.L. Jennings lovely work. They wereconsistant in color despite being from different eras in hisproduction.Doesthis help? Hoffhines from mrj@seanet.com Sun Oct 5 20:18:31 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24601 for Subject: Re: Catch & release Joe Loverti wrote: I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brook trout as'cockroaches' .... Just 'cause aguy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing. Justtrying to keep things in perspective. Sincerely,Joe Loverti Loverti Cane Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods I would have to agree whole heartedly with this statment here Joe.-- Martin Jensen from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Oct 5 21:26:07 1997 Subject: Re: Restoring Silk Fly Lines In a message dated 97-10-05 16:45:34 EDT, you write: Thanks Chris and Simon.RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Oct 5 21:26:10 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-10-05 17:48:19 EDT, you write: Thanks Domenic, you may be right. There has to be some explination.RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sun Oct 5 21:26:36 1997 Subject: Re: 9 foot 5-6 weight nymph taper light-line bamboo rods for nymph and/or wet fly fishing: a rod buildingbuddy of mine who lives in the Smokies has an FE Thomas Sepcial, 9-1/2',3-pc the taper. The rod has a relatively slow, graceful casting stroke and is apleasure. The taper follows: Station Tip #1 Tip #2 1-3/4 075 0755 090 09310 100 10615 124 12620-1/2 148 15225 154 16030 163 16835 184 18836-1/2 186 188------------------------ ---------------------------------Station Mid | Station Butt|41 207 | 78-3/4 30045 211 | 80 30150 223 | 85 30855 242 | 90 33360 260 | 95 34665 266 | 100 37170 281 | 104-1/2 40673-1/2 290 | Guide spacing is 4-3/8; 9-1/16; 14-1/4; 19-5/8; 25-5/8; 32-3/8; 40- 1/8;46-3/4; 53-5/16; 62; 70-5/8; 82-7/16 The butt section feel as tho it is hollow built. Though not known what theactual wts are, the mid feels as heavy or heavier than the butt, but it maynot be. We estimated the varnish to be .002" to .003", so .004" to .006" should besubtracted from the above figures and averages. Regards,RTyree from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun Oct 5 22:26:51 1997 Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information ReedGood to see you back again - It's interesting to see the busy cycles ofsome - In talking with John Z last night it will be a year or so for him toget out from under his load.If you have ever read any of George's writing you clearly see that hewas very pointed. It's funny that you mentioned Jungle Cock - from whatI'veheard it was a shipment of JC necks that got him in trouble - that and hisattitude.Knowing your interest in silk lines - do you have any old line boxes???-we have several of the older modern line boxes but none of the classic silkmakers. Wayne from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Sun Oct 5 22:49:46 1997 (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Catch & release type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Martin Jensen wrote: Joe Loverti wrote: I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brooktrout as'cockroaches' .... Just 'cause aguy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing.Justtrying to keep things in perspective. Sincerely,Joe Loverti Loverti Cane Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods I would have to agree whole heartedly with this statment here Joe.--Martin Jensen Martin:I should have 'proof read' the text of my posting before I pushedthe 'send' button.What I meant to type was: ...Just 'cause a guy wears a uniform doesn'tmean he knows a good godamn about anything.  sorry about that. cheers,Joe Loverti from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Oct 5 23:09:34 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release In a message dated 97-10-05 18:51:22 EDT, you write: I don't want to get into an extended dialogue on catch and release. But,I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brook trout as'cockroaches' is nothing more than a cockroach himself. Just 'cause aguy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing. Justtrying to keep things in perspective. Okay, I might agree with you on that, but then why does the Calif.State regulations allow 10 more brook trout to be kept over andabove the regular limit of 5? There must be a reason. Darryl Hayashida from mrj@seanet.com Mon Oct 6 01:09:03 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01367 for Subject: Re: Catch & release SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-05 18:51:22 EDT, you write: I don't want to get into an extended dialogue on catch and release. But,I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brook trout as'cockroaches' is nothing more than a cockroach himself. Just 'cause aguy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing.Justtrying to keep things in perspective. Okay, I might agree with you on that, but then why does the Calif.State regulations allow 10 more brook trout to be kept over andabove the regular limit of 5? There must be a reason. Darryl Hayashida Brook Trout have very minimal spawning requirements and tend tooverpopulate waters very easily. Left unchecked they would eat all thefood and the native Rainbow and Cutthroat would die out. In waters thatwould not sustain a Rainbows or Cutthroat population, Brook trout wouldthrive. The idea is to crop them down a little. Brook Trout are notnative to California or to the West Coast if I am correct.Note:Under some circumstances, Cutthroat will exhibit these sameoverpopulating tendencies.-- Martin Jensen from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.saic.com Mon Oct 6 06:38:17 1997 1997 11:38:11 UT 04:38:10 -0700 Subject: test Subject: Time: 7:23 AMOFFICE MEMO test Date: 10/6/97 test from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Oct 6 07:26:31 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA23705 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: FLAMING CANE I have had the same problem. I began flaming the cane until black butwent even further. I now flame until I get a shine on the cane. It'salmost a graphite (pencil lead) color. Brian On Sat, 04 Oct 1997 16:37:12 -0400, Domenic P Croce wrote: Does anyone know how some builders(John Zimny comes to mind)achieveanextremely dark flame coloration on their rods.I have been doing allot of experimenting with flaming and notice thatifI flame the cane till' it's black,then I remove the enamel,the cane is not that dark.The only thing I can figure is these builders are leaving a certainamount of enamel on the strips.?Or maybe removing the enamel before flaming? Thanks,Domenic Croce Regards Chris from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Mon Oct 6 08:42:42 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:42:38 -0400 Subject: Wood for rodmaking I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building ahardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I know lemonwood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withthis? Any advice or suggested tapers? from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Oct 6 09:01:25 1997 Subject: Re: Heat Treating - My theory In a message dated 97-10-05 19:48:09 EDT, you write: Hoffhines Perhaps he tried different things at different times like a lot of us do.Thanks,RTyree from flyfisher@circle.net Mon Oct 6 09:09:04 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA03123 for ; Subject: Re: Catch & release Martin Jensen wrote: Brook Trout have very minimal spawning requirements and tend tooverpopulate waters very easily. Left unchecked they would eat all thefood and the native Rainbow and Cutthroat would die out. In waters thatwould not sustain a Rainbows or Cutthroat population, Brook trout wouldthrive. The idea is to crop them down a little. Brook Trout are notnative to California or to the West Coast if I am correct.Note:Under some circumstances, Cutthroat will exhibit these sameoverpopulating tendencies.--Martin JensenIn North Carolina the Brook is the native trout, rainbows and browns arethe imports. (I'd rather catch an 8" brook than a 12 inch bow orbrown.) Any species left unchecked will go through overpopulation ofit's own environment and then die back. That's part of the life cycleof the streams. Fisheries Magagers are trying to get the populationsstable, but that isn't natural. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from Canerods@aol.com Mon Oct 6 09:26:31 1997 Subject: Re: OUTTA HERE Hurry back - you add much to the group. Don Burns from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Mon Oct 6 09:32:59 1997 PAA12027 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:36:28+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking The classic material prior to cane, or in conjunction with cane was always Greenheart. ( I read of a 7' all greeheart rod for sale only a week or two ago ). I believe this to be the wood of the Greenheart tree, Ocotea rodiaei ( aptly enough ) a type of American laurel. give it a go. regards Simon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Wood for rodmakingAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLO I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building a hardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I know lemon wood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience with this? Any advice or suggested tapers? from d-deloach1@ti.com Mon Oct 6 09:40:15 1997 with ESMTP id JAA13150 for ; Mon, 6 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id INOOBQBL; Mon, 6Oct 1997 09:39:41 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: OUTTA HERE Terry Don't stay away too long. I enjoyed your contributions. Don D. ------------------Original text Guys,I have to sign off again, I have to try to catch up with things. We gotsome good discussions going which I feel sure has been constructive. Iam a little dissapointed that the generals of the list did not get tooinvolved with what I thought was meaningful to the craft. I guess youcan draw your own conclusions thereI have been a little greedy with the bandwidth by drawing guys in todiscussing what I find important to rodmakers instead of the usual 'best string and test curve' type of threads I shall get in touch with all the guys that contacted me off line withinthe next couple of days.Regards,Terry Ackland from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Oct 6 10:06:17 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release In a message dated 97-10-06 02:15:11 EDT, you write: Brook Trout have very minimal spawning requirements and tend tooverpopulate waters very easily. Left unchecked they would eat all thefood and the native Rainbow and Cutthroat would die out. In waters thatwould not sustain a Rainbows or Cutthroat population, Brook troutwouldthrive. The idea is to crop them down a little. Brook Trout are notnative to California or to the West Coast if I am correct.Note:Under some circumstances, Cutthroat will exhibit these sameoverpopulating tendencies. Then the game warden wasn't that far off, even though he usedrather strong terms calling them "cockaroaches". Overrunningan area and eating all the available food is a good descriptionof a cockaroach and the brook trout in the Sierra Mtns. Darryl Hayashida from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Oct 6 10:27:31 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release RO>Received: from wugate.wustl.edu [128.252.120.1] by members.cmix.comwith smtRO> id BEDJACEA ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:57:02 -0600 RO> by wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23874; RO>Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com RO> by wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17058RO> for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:09:33 -0500 RO>Received: ( from root@localhost)RO> by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL- 2.0.0)RO> id AAA11554 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; RO>Message-Id: RO>Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRO>From: SalarFly@aol.com RO>Subject: Re: Catch & releaseRO>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN RO>In a message dated 97-10-05 18:51:22 EDT, you write: RO>> I don't want to get into an extended dialogue on catch and release.But,RO>> I would like to say that any 'game warden' that refers to brook troutasRO>> 'cockroaches' is nothing more than a cockroach himself. Just 'cause aRO>> guy wears a uniform doesn't mean he know a god damn about thing.JustRO>> trying to keep things in perspective.RO>> RO>Okay, I might agree with you on that, but then why does the Calif.RO>State regulations allow 10 more brook trout to be kept over andRO>above the regular limit of 5? There must be a reason. RO>Darryl Hayashida Darryl, Allow me to jump into the conversation. There's 2 reasons for the 10 fish limit. First, CA has been using asub- species of the brook trout that grow very fast and die young. Theyover bred where there is little in the way of natural predators - as inCalifornia. Second, the fish were planted in many alpine lakes thatcan't support large populations due to the short open-water season. Theresults in many of the planted locations is a large # of stunted fish.That's why the cockroach analogy. the size of the fish in these lakes/streams. In fact, at some of theselakes all fish caught MUST be kept, regardless of size. The state has also tried to plant kononee (sp?) salmon in the hopes ofreducing the brook trout populations in some of these lakes. Resultslook to be a total failure. I can tell you that a native brookie caught in the wilds of Ontario canbe some of the most beautiful trout (char) that you'll ever catch. Toobad we're living with the results of poor sub-species selection out herein CA. See Ralph Cutter's great book "Sierra Trout Guide" page #24 for moredetails. Cutter says that some CA 8" brookies are 20 years old! Don Burns from mrj@seanet.com Mon Oct 6 12:38:20 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16293 for Subject: Re: Catch & release SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-06 02:15:11 EDT, you write: Brook Trout have very minimal spawning requirements and tend tooverpopulate waters very easily. Left unchecked they would eat all thefood and the native Rainbow and Cutthroat would die out. In watersthatwould not sustain a Rainbows or Cutthroat population, Brook troutwouldthrive. The idea is to crop them down a little. Brook Trout are notnative to California or to the West Coast if I am correct.Note:Under some circumstances, Cutthroat will exhibit these sameoverpopulating tendencies. Then the game warden wasn't that far off, even though he usedrather strong terms calling them "cockaroaches". Overrunningan area and eating all the available food is a good descriptionof a cockaroach and the brook trout in the Sierra Mtns. Darryl Hayashida Yes that is true. It is all perspective. In the east, they have planted Browns and Rainbowand probably Cutthroat. They interfere with the native Brook trout.People want big fish not many fish so they want the non native fish.-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Oct 6 13:00:41 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id OAA07635 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: Finishes I have been playing around with some finishes lately using Formby's polyfinish, both in a high and low gloss. I've compared it to a pure tungoil finish and tung oil with varnish, which produces a satin-likefinish. I put about 7 coats of the finishes on my test sections. Ithen put a few drops of water on the sections and have found that thepoly finishes bead up about the same as a tung oil finish with a goodwaxing. I haven't noticed a difference between the high or low glossfinish. Has anyone ever used these finishes on a rod? They appear toprotect the bamboo yet still give the hand rubbed finish look. I wouldthink that if you can buy the finish at a Home Depot though, it must notbe that great. Brian from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Oct 6 14:27:53 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release RO>Yes that is true.RO>It is all perspective. In the east, they have planted Browns andRainbowRO>and probably Cutthroat. They interfere with the native Brook trout.RO>People want big fish not many fish so they want the non native fish.RO>--RO>Martin Jensen Martin, The brown trout was brought in to the country because we ruined thehabitat for the brookies. Rainbows are everywhere because they are theeasiest to raise in a hatchery. Cuttroats because they were "gee wizz"fish. Brookies can become big fish too - look at the Maine and Labadorbrookies. They just need to be restored to true native sub-species - notsome quick grow strain bred for put-n-take fishing. Also cleaning up water polution would help. Don B. PS - Wayne et al, are there any graylings left in Mich? from Fallcreek9@aol.com Mon Oct 6 18:15:07 1997 Subject: Re: Finishes In a message dated 97-10-06 14:02:03 EDT, you write: Hello Brian: I tried the finish a few years back and had some trouble withpeeling. Cannot say it was the fault of the finish as back then I tried topractically polishthe bamboo with 0000 steel wool and so not much tooth. Havn't tried itlately. Richard from harry37@epix.net Mon Oct 6 19:51:07 1997 UAA05345 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking John A. Whitaker wrote: I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building ahardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I know lemonwood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withthis? Any advice or suggested tapers? John, My $.02--I know a lot of self-bow builders who use osage orange orhickory--they'd prefer lemonwood, but they can't get a large enoughstave to build a bow. All three flex very well; the hickory grain isreally tight, and might work well for a rod. My experience is based onbow building, not rod building, so take it for what it's worth. Greg Kuntz from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:22:52 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Catch & release Doug, Martin, et. al.,I have seen (not caught ) 14" Brookies in the Rapidan and expect to seemore in the next few years. This compares favorably with the otherstreams inthe Park that are not c & r which tells me that c & r has no appreciableaffect on the Brook trout. Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:22:56 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Catch & release Darryl, Martin, et. al.,The Rapidan R. in Shenandoah Park has been catch and release sincebefore I started fishing it some 30 years ago. While I believe that thepoaching has led to an increase in fish size some comments on somerecentnatural "disasters" may be in order. First-we had a mud slide in very highwater 2 seasons ago below which no fish could be found for a while. ThisFallthere are young of the year below the slide area and above the slide(where afew fish survived) there are now some fish in fairly large size for thestream. I would conclude that the insect life has rebounded quickly,thatthetributaries and upper stream have replenished the trout below the slidearea,and the diminished population has grown larger than usual in sizeabovethe slide. I would say that the natural season-season variations have moretodo with population variables than anything else (assuming catch &release).After all, before the Europeans arrived there were some streams thatwerehardly or never fished at all.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:24:10 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Catch & release Martin,The Rainbow has been over running the Brookies in the Smokies eversincethey were introduced. I don't have a great deal of respect for mostfisheriesand wildlife biologists (with a few exceptions). They often don't haveenoughgenuine field experience. A case in point- one chap was shocking a BlueRidgestream to determine Brown trout "encroachment" of the Brookies (Ibelieve theBrownies' nich and the Brookies nich to be different). In any case he cameupwith parameters that had us regular fishermen of that stream laughing-hewasat least 1/2 mile off. That's M not so HO .Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:24:21 1997 Subject: Re: Re: OUTTA HERE Amen, Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:24:25 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Catch & release Don,The native So. Appalachian Brookie Has an average life span of 3 years.They can breed at 3". A 12" fish is a good one and anything over that is atrophy. I'm not conversant with the Ca. strain but I find it hard to believethat the Ca. 8" Brookie is 20 years old!Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Oct 6 21:24:38 1997 Subject: Re: Re: FLAMING CANE Chris,I flame the cane strips before planing sometimes both pith and enamelside then heat treat after final at 375 for 15" a side. I move the popanestandard tip just slow enuf that the enamel wrinkles. If I want deepercolorI'll slow the tip down. Any comments from the "gallery" ,positive ornegative,are welcome.Hank. from mrj@seanet.com Mon Oct 6 22:02:57 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA09684 for Subject: Re: Catch & release FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Don,The native So. Appalachian Brookie Has an average life span of 3 years.They can breed at 3". A 12" fish is a good one and anything over that is atrophy. I'm not conversant with the Ca. strain but I find it hard to believethat the Ca. 8" Brookie is 20 years old!Hank. Did someone mention a California Strain of Brookie that they though was20 years old? Thats awfully old. In some of the lakes in WA, mainly highcountry lakes there have been populations of Brookies that were maybe 5to 8 years old. They were stunted. Really big heads small bodys. Prettyugly really.-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Mon Oct 6 22:06:36 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA09829 for Subject: Re: Catch & release flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Yes that is true.RO>It is all perspective. In the east, they have planted Browns andRainbowRO>and probably Cutthroat. They interfere with the native Brook trout.RO>People want big fish not many fish so they want the non native fish.RO>--RO>Martin Jensen Martin, The brown trout was brought in to the country because we ruined thehabitat for the brookies. Rainbows are everywhere because they are theeasiest to raise in a hatchery. Cuttroats because they were "gee wizz"fish. Brookies can become big fish too - look at the Maine and Labadorbrookies. They just need to be restored to true native sub-species - notsome quick grow strain bred for put-n-take fishing. Also cleaning up water polution would help. Don B. PS - Wayne et al, are there any graylings left in Mich? As I understand it, Brown trout can handle higher water temperaturesbetter than Brookies.With the cutting back of Stream cover I guess thismight make Brookie water into Brown Trout water. Out here I would love to catch a big Brookie. A few lakes have them andsome beaver ponds but I don't get out to them much anymore.-- Martin Jensen from Bopep@aol.com Mon Oct 6 22:24:41 1997 Subject: Re: Payne Taper Colleagues:Does anybody out there have the taper for the Payne model 98? One fellowhada splendid rod from that taper at Grayrock this year and amid all the greatrods there, I've forgotten who it was. Any help would be greatlyappreciated. Rob Hoffhines from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Oct 6 22:33:33 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release RO>Don,RO> The native So. Appalachian Brookie Has an average life span of 3years.RO>They can breed at 3". A 12" fish is a good one and anything over that isaRO>trophy. I'm not conversant with the Ca. strain but I find it hard tobelieveRO>that the Ca. 8" Brookie is 20 years old!RO> Hank. Hank, Seemed old to me too, but I also know that Ralph Cutter and his familyhave done more reseach into the Sierra trout population than just aboutthe whole DFG's staff. His book is a great work. He says CA has the SethGreen" strain of "super" brookie that can breed at 1 year and at under4" in size. Ralph had a great web site until his provider went "south" in the middleof the night, so to speak. Don't know if he's got it back on-line. Ifyou want I'll dig out his personal email address for you and you can askhim for details. He and his wife run a great FF shop/casting school outof Truckee, CA. I'll close with a quote from Ralph's "Sierra Trout Guide" - tell me thisisn't a cane rod task : "The fly rod is played like a delicate and beautiful musticalinstrument. A light rod, fine tippet, and a dainty quarry makes flyfishing for brookies fishing at its very finest. In comparison aspinning outfit is an instrument of war." Don Burns from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Oct 7 07:57:24 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA25287 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Finishes I think I'll stick with the tung oil and wax and see what happens to mytest sections over time. Thanks. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Fallcreek9@aol.com [SMTP:Fallcreek9@aol.com]Sent: Monday, October 06, 1997 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Finishes In a message dated 97-10-06 14:02:03 EDT, you write: I have been playing around with some finishes lately using Formby'spolyfinish, both in a high and low gloss. I've compared it to a puretung.... Has anyone ever used these finishes on a rod? They appear toprotect the bamboo yet still give the hand rubbed finish look. Iwouldthink that if you can buy the finish at a Home Depot though, it mustnotbe that great.Brian Hello Brian: I tried the finish a few years back and had some troublewithpeeling. Cannot say it was the fault of the finish as back then Itried topractically polishthe bamboo with 0000 steel wool and so not much tooth. Havn't trieditlately. Richard from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Tue Oct 7 08:51:53 1997 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking RO>John A. Whitaker wrote:RO>>RO>> I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building aRO>> hardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I knowlemonRO>> wood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withRO>> this? Any advice or suggested tapers? RO>John,RO>My $.02--RO>I know a lot of self-bow builders who use osage orange orRO>hickory--they'd prefer lemonwood, but they can't get a large enoughRO>stave to build a bow. All three flex very well; the hickory grain isRO>really tight, and might work well for a rod. My experience is based onRO>bow building, not rod building, so take it for what it's worth. RO>Greg Kuntz John,My $.01 worthMy neighbor claims his fishing buddy has a Crappie Jigging Rod made ofCherry. My neighbor wishes that he could find a source for such a rod.I've told him that I am experimenting with making a bamboo fly rod andhe thinks that's a waste. He thinks I ought to make him a CherryJigging Rod for Crappie. Dick Fuhrman from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Oct 7 09:31:26 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:30:48 EDT Subject: The Book.... So everyone knows....Yesterday was my 21st...so I guess that makes me not as much of a baby anymore. Anyway, my girldfriend gave me Garrison's book. Great Gift! Is the book on it's last printing. from what she said she had quite a time getting it in under eight weeks. Does anyone have a good idea where I could find George's book? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from WDHCJL@aol.com Tue Oct 7 09:45:40 1997 Subject: Re: Finishes In a message dated 97-10-07 09:02:08 EDT, you write: A friend of mine is a fulltime woodworker, and told me that the wax willNOTserve as a moisture barrier. Does anyone else have a thought on this?Doug from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Oct 7 09:57:00 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id KAA28750 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Finishes Drops of water on a freshly waxed rod will bead right up, whereaswithout the wax the water spreads evenly over the bamboo. It appears tokeep the water off unless maybe you submerge it for a while. Does hemean moisture from our high humidity? Brian -----Original Message-----From: WDHCJL@aol.com [SMTP:WDHCJL@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Finishes In a message dated 97-10-07 09:02:08 EDT, you write: to mytest sections over time. Thanks. Brian A friend of mine is a fulltime woodworker, and told me that the waxwill NOTserve as a moisture barrier. Does anyone else have a thought on this?Doug from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Oct 7 09:58:22 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id KAA28783 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: The Book.... 21st birthday or 21st rod? -----Original Message-----From: Jon Lintvet [SMTP:jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu]Sent: Monday, October 06, 1997 6:32 PM Subject: The Book.... So everyone knows....Yesterday was my 21st...so I guess that makes me not as much of a baby anymore. Anyway, my girldfriend gave me Garrison's book. Great Gift! Is the book on it's last printing. from what she said she had quite a time getting it in under eight weeks. Does anyone have a good idea where I could find George's book? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Tue Oct 7 10:03:28 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:03:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking dickfuhrman@rheemote.com wrote: RO>John A. Whitaker wrote:RO>>RO>> I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building aRO>> hardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I knowlemonRO>> wood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experiencewithRO>> this? Any advice or suggested tapers? RO>John,RO>My $.02--RO>I know a lot of self-bow builders who use osage orange orRO>hickory--they'd prefer lemonwood, but they can't get a large enoughRO>stave to build a bow. All three flex very well; the hickory grain isRO>really tight, and might work well for a rod. My experience is basedonRO>bow building, not rod building, so take it for what it's worth. RO>Greg Kuntz John,My $.01 worthMy neighbor claims his fishing buddy has a Crappie Jigging Rod made ofCherry. My neighbor wishes that he could find a source for such a rod.I've told him that I am experimenting with making a bamboo fly rod andhe thinks that's a waste. He thinks I ought to make him a CherryJigging Rod for Crappie. Dick Fuhrman I like the cherry idea because I have some choice cherry wood seasoningin the basement (10 years so far). I'm a bit skeptical. I was leaningtowards traditional bow woods as Greg pointed out. The 2nd volume of'The Traditional Bowyers Bible' has great wood advice. Both speciesselection and board selection (not to mention harvesting). I would behappy to summarize this if anyone likes. A local mill here get goodlemonwood about twice a year. I saw it this summer but didn't think toact. MMM got to think about the Cherry, after all the price is right! from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Tue Oct 7 10:12:41 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA137 for ;Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:16:31 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000D113; Tue, 7 Oct 9710:35:59 -0500 Subject: Tung removal? With all the discussion and speculation of the inadequacy of Tung Oil finishes... Is it possible (or even necessary) to remove a Tung Oil finish from a rod if I decide to go the varnish route? I coated the rod in question with 10 applications of tung and I have yet to apply a wax overcoat. Thanks,Eck from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Oct 7 10:44:14 1997 Subject: Re: Tung removal? In a message dated 97-10-07 11:14:00 EDT, you write: Is it possible (or even necessary) to remove a Tung Oil finish from a rod if I decide to go the varnish route? I coated the rod inquestion with 10 applications of tung and I have yet to apply a wax overcoat. Most polyurethanes will go over tung oil. I would go over the rodlightly with 0000 steel wool and then wipe it down with mineralspirits (paint thinner) before coating it with poly. I wouldn't be too quick to panic over this though. Tung oil andwaxing has been the traditional coating for over a hundredyears, and that's back when they used hide glue which isn'twaterproof at all. Darryl Hayashida from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Tue Oct 7 10:45:33 1997 QAA16313 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:49:04+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re[2]: Finishes Guys, Finishing a rod in tung oil then wax, rather than high gloss varnish appeals to me when I start to refinish an old rod. Can you just clear up the following? 1. What type of final wax do you use? My experience of furniture type wood waxes are that they poor when they get wet ( mine go all cloudy ). 2. How many coats of tung does a rod need, until it can take no more? 3. I assume that the whippings still need varnishing? And that this is done prior to oiling? 4. Does the oiling need doing regularly from then on, each time you take it out, once a season, once a decade? Sorry to be such a beginner. thanks Simon from jbr842@airmail.net Tue Oct 7 11:15:52 1997 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.203) with smtp for Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking John A. Whitaker wrote: dickfuhrman@rheemote.com wrote: RO>John A. Whitaker wrote:RO>>RO>> I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building aRO>> hardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I knowlemonRO>> wood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experiencewithRO>> this? Any advice or suggested tapers? RO>John,RO>My $.02--RO>I know a lot of self-bow builders who use osage orange orRO>hickory--they'd prefer lemonwood, but they can't get a large enoughRO>stave to build a bow. All three flex very well; the hickory grain isRO>really tight, and might work well for a rod. My experience is basedonRO>bow building, not rod building, so take it for what it's worth. RO>Greg Kuntz John,My $.01 worthMy neighbor claims his fishing buddy has a Crappie Jigging Rod made ofCherry. My neighbor wishes that he could find a source for such a rod.I've told him that I am experimenting with making a bamboo fly rod andhe thinks that's a waste. He thinks I ought to make him a CherryJigging Rod for Crappie. Dick Fuhrman I like the cherry idea because I have some choice cherry wood seasoningin the basement (10 years so far). I'm a bit skeptical. I was leaningtowards traditional bow woods as Greg pointed out. The 2nd volume of'The Traditional Bowyers Bible' has great wood advice. Both speciesselection and board selection (not to mention harvesting). I would behappy to summarize this if anyone likes. A local mill here get goodlemonwood about twice a year. I saw it this summer but didn't think toact. MMM got to think about the Cherry, after all the price is right! Please do....sounds interesting from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Tue Oct 7 11:16:52 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 0787; Tue, 07 Oct 97 12:16:30 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 5209; Tue, 7 Oct 199712:16:30 -0400 Some time ago there was a discussion on drying green wood. I have somecherryI'd like to age for reel seats. What shall I coat the end grain with toprevent checking? Paraffin and something as a solvent? (It's a gorgiousdayhere in Maine, sunny, bright, cool, autumn colors, and I wish I was outcasting to some of those young brookies you all have been chatting on.)Bob. from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Oct 7 11:18:25 1997 Subject: Re: [2] Gluing, Varnishing At 00:54 05/10/97 -0400, you wrote:Don Andersen wrote: Whoa there - is no evidence that the rod "soaks" up varnish. The varnishisa top coat. If you could get a varnish that you could soak the rod in while pulling avacuum on the container - you just might get some varnish within theinterspacial areas of the cane. Otherwise, its still a top coat. What about the O***s Impregnated cane rods? They say the varnish isn'ton the rod, it's in it. Are they full of O***s? Donald, Varnish would likely dry prior to going into the pores of the rod. Like Isaid, "if you could get a varnish etc." and I think Orivs impregnation iswithin the cane - never sawed one apart and looked - any volunteers? Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Oct 7 11:18:30 1997 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking At 09:03 07/10/97 EDT, you wrote:RO>John A. Whitaker wrote:RO>>RO>> I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building aRO>> hardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I knowlemonRO>> wood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withRO>> this? Any advice or suggested tapers? John, In the archives there should be a discussion from about 6 months or so agoabout the types and availability of woods for rod making. Ralph Moon hasdone a lot of work with tapered hardwood rods and may be a source of info.Strikes me he mentioned using the wooden rods that black powdershootersuse to push the patches/bullets down the barrel among the other sources.The rods should be available from a company such as CVA whichadvertises inmost of the black powder magazines. CVA is also a source for Ni-silverpieces.Hope this helps. Further, occasionally there are greenheart blanks available from MerryOldeEngland. Expect they are Sharpe's blanks. The come ferruled with brassferrules. Bought one about 10+ years ago. Cast OK. Don from flyfisher@rhco.com Tue Oct 7 11:35:52 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id MAA22807 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Re[2]: Finishes I created the wax Wayne suggests using in his book but I used Carnaubawax instead of bees wax. It is much harder and requires a little moreheat to mix and melt. I couldn't find a pure lemon oil and used a lemonoil with a few other "essential oils." I put my sections in saran wrapfilled with tung oil and let them sit for about 24-36 hours. I havealso used as many as 15 coats, drying the sections 15 minutes after theoil is applied. Both methods have produced comparable results. Ivarnish my wraps and have applied tung oil both before and after thewraps are finished and have noticed no difference. I have used the waxafter the initial oiling and have not re-applied, although I'm sure thatwouldn't be a bad idea. I wouldn't think you'd need to do that aftereach outing though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: chapc@oslo.pgs.com [SMTP:chapc@oslo.pgs.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:33 AM Subject: Re[2]: Finishes Guys, Finishing a rod in tung oil then wax, rather than high glossvarnish appeals to me when I start to refinish an old rod. Can you just clear up the following? 1. What type of final wax do you use? My experience offurniture type wood waxes are that they poor when they get wet ( mine goall cloudy ). 2. How many coats of tung does a rod need, until it can take no more? 3. I assume that the whippings still need varnishing? And thatthis is done prior to oiling? 4. Does the oiling need doing regularly from then on, each timeyou take it out, once a season, once a decade? Sorry to be such a beginner. thanks Simon from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Oct 7 11:57:39 1997 Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information Wayne I have the label from an enameled braided silk line thatwas part of a trade with Reed. I will forward it to you. Chris WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: ReedGood to see you back again - It's interesting to see the busy cycles ofsome - In talking with John Z last night it will be a year or so for him toget out from under his load.If you have ever read any of George's writing you clearly see that hewas very pointed. It's funny that you mentioned Jungle Cock - from whatI'veheard it was a shipment of JC necks that got him in trouble - that andhisattitude.Knowing your interest in silk lines - do you have any old line boxes???-we have several of the older modern line boxes but none of the classicsilkmakers. Wayne from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Oct 7 12:06:41 1997 MAA05761 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:06:37 - (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id MAA16271 for ; Subject: Re: New guy searching for used / excess tools, equipment I didn't see anyone answer this so I'll give my $.02. If you are anywhere near Chicago or Milwaukee, be sure to stop inat American Science and Surplus. You will find lots of mechanicalgizmos. Some things I've either bought or made note of:6 inch pulleys for Milward style binders: $3 others pulleys priced proportionalLow rpm motors for rod dryers: $1-$4Stepper motors for dip tanks: $4 ( several models; I haven't looked at specs)Tyvek coveralls for hand varnishing: $3Ball Bearings for plane levelers and other jigs: Any of you old hands know of sources for decent to good quality tools orequipment for rodmaking, I'd be glad to hear from you. I'm looking fora nice block plane, planing forms, scrapers, pulleys, motor fordiptubes, etc. If you know of any former students or associates whowish to part with decent tools and supplies, e-mail me atstpete@netten.net as I'd like to purchase some equipment. Thanks, Rick from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Tue Oct 7 12:19:43 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA137; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:23:30 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000D16B; Tue, 7 Oct 9712:43:00 -0500 "Thoman; Brian" Subject: Re[4]: Finishes --IMA.Boundary.081642678 I like to use 10-15 coats of tung... 24 hours between coats and going over the rod *lightly* with 0000 steel wool prior to each new application of tung. However, some of the recent threads have made me question the long-term resistance of tung/wax combo to moisture. I am going to stay with with this finish, however, (thanks Sir D) and observe the long-term results for myself. Oh... I then wrap the guides, and finish the wraps with varnish. Works Eck ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: RE: Re[2]: FinishesAuthor: "Thoman; Brian" at SMTP_Gateway I created the wax Wayne suggests using in his book but I used Carnauba wax instead of bees wax. It is much harder and requires a little more heat to mix and melt. I couldn't find a pure lemon oil and used a lemon oil with a few other "essential oils." I put my sections in saran wrap filled with tung oil and let them sit for about 24-36 hours. I have also used as many as 15 coats, drying the sections 15 minutes after the oil is applied. Both methods have produced comparable results. I varnish my wraps and have applied tung oil both before and after the wraps are finished and have noticed no difference. I have used the wax after the initial oiling and have not re-applied, although I'm sure that wouldn't be a bad idea. I wouldn't think you'd need to do that after each outing though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: chapc@oslo.pgs.com [SMTP:chapc@oslo.pgs.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:33 AM Subject: Re[2]: Finishes Guys, Finishing a rod in tung oil then wax, rather than high gloss varnish appeals to me when I start to refinish an old rod. Can you just clear up the following? 1. What type of final wax do you use? My experience of furniture type wood waxes are that they poor when they get wet ( mine go all cloudy ). 2. How many coats of tung does a rod need, until it can take no more? 3. I assume that the whippings still need varnishing? And that this is done prior to oiling? 4. Does the oiling need doing regularly from then on, each time you take it out, once a season, once a decade? Sorry to be such a beginner. thanks Simon--IMA.Boundary.081642678 headers" ccgate.us.meissner-wurst.com with SMTP(IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000D14A; Tue, 7 Oct 9712:00:36-0500 with ESMTP id AAA137 for ;Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:41:01 -0500 12:31:48 wurst.com viasmap (3.2) (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id MAA22807 for; 12:34:34 -0400 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Re[2]: Finishes --IMA.Boundary.081642678-- from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Tue Oct 7 12:48:141997 1997 17:48:03 UT 10:48:08 -0700 Subject: Re: The Book.... John: Try: 1. Angler's Art: 800-848-1020.2. Adams Angling Books: http://members.aol.com/adamsangl3. Paul Pursell Outdoor Books: 541- 783-2617 --Rich------------------------------ So everyone knows....Yesterday was my 21st...so I guess that makes me not as much of a baby anymore. Anyway, my girldfriend gave me Garrison's book. Great Gift! Is the book on it's last printing. from what she said she had quite a time getting it in under eight weeks. Does anyone have a good idea where I could find George's book? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 07:38:44 -0700 10:38:43-0400 #23425)with ESMTP id forRICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:38:42 - with SMTP id for Subject: The Book.... from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Oct 7 13:42:06 1997 Subject: Re:Finishes Personally I like the matte finish of tung oil, and I know Ihave to wax a rod finished in tung oil. But, now that I havesold a few of my rods, one thing everyone should know, andthis is from experience - a pure tung oil finish does not sellwell. People like the glossy glint of a thick polyurethanecoat. Most of the comments I get about the tung oil finishare "When are you going to finish this one?" If I have a tungfinished rod next to a polyurethane finished rod, invariablyguys pick up the poly finished rod first. This is why I have been working on and posting about thedipping tube / dust free drying / low cost rod puller. I hadsettled on a tung oil finish myself, but the people who buythe rods don't seem to like it. Tung is okay for your ownpersonal rods if you like the finish, but if you are ever goingto sell any of your rods, bite the bullet and get a dip tubesetup. The Number One feature that is going to sell arod is a flawless finish. Straightness is next. Darryl Hayashida from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Oct 7 17:54:01 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA29107 for Subject: Re: Finishes WDHCJL@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-07 09:02:08 EDT, you write: test sections over time. Thanks. Brian A friend of mine is a fulltime woodworker, and told me that the wax willNOTserve as a moisture barrier. Does anyone else have a thought on this?DougDoug,In the conservation field, where they have to concern themselveswithtrying to achieve minimal sudden change in the artifacts condition,e.g., absorption of ambient moisture, wax, pricipally micro- crystallinewax, is always used.Wax is good. Trust wax. Wax has been used by man to protectmaterials from moisture for many centuries.Best regards,Reed from Canerods@aol.com Tue Oct 7 17:59:41 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release In a message dated 97-10-07 07:16:35 EDT, you write: Martin, I did. Just repeating what I read about ONE brook trout that livedtobe 20 and only 8" long - not a whole strain. Don Burns from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Oct 7 17:59:44 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA29308 for Subject: Re: Tung removal? eric.koehler wrote: With all the discussion and speculation of the inadequacy of Tung Oilfinishes... Is it possible (or even necessary) to remove a Tung Oil finish from arod if I decide to go the varnish route? I coated the rod in questionwith 10 applications of tung and I have yet to apply a wax overcoat. Thanks,EckDear Eck (interesting name),If you use a good quality spar varnish, (and I hope you do, it is muchmore pleasant to remove and reapply than poly) you should have noproblem applying it right over the tung. Tung oil is an importantcomponent of most good spar varnishes. Best regards,ReedP.S. - But wax the finished rod. from rcurry@jlc.net Tue Oct 7 18:11:08 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29668 for Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking John A. Whitaker wrote: I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building ahardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I know lemonwood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withthis? Any advice or suggested tapers?John,I would suggest you read some of the available literature on thissubject. H.P. Wells, in Fly-Rods and Fly-Tackle, for example, lists 23different woods and describes their merits. I would type in that list,but without all the additional detail it would be meaningless.I will note that he highly recommends (if you can't use splitcane) abutt of ash, and mid and tip of lancewood. Next in preference is mahoe,then shagbark hickory, etc.Best regards,Reed from mrj@seanet.com Tue Oct 7 18:16:25 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18898 for Subject: Re: Finishes Thoman, Brian wrote: I created the wax Wayne suggests using in his book but I used Carnaubawax instead of bees wax. It is much harder and requires a little moreheat to mix and melt. I couldn't find a pure lemon oil and used a lemonoil with a few other "essential oils." I put my sections in saran wrapfilled with tung oil and let them sit for about 24-36 hours. I havealso used as many as 15 coats, drying the sections 15 minutes after theoil is applied. Both methods have produced comparable results. Ivarnish my wraps and have applied tung oil both before and after thewraps are finished and have noticed no difference. I have used the waxafter the initial oiling and have not re-applied, although I'm sure thatwouldn't be a bad idea. I wouldn't think you'd need to do that aftereach outing though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: chapc@oslo.pgs.com [SMTP:chapc@oslo.pgs.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:33 AM Subject: Re[2]: Finishes Guys, Finishing a rod in tung oil then wax, rather than high glossvarnishappeals to me when I start to refinish an old rod. Can you just clear up the following? 1. What type of final wax do you use? My experience offurnituretype wood waxes are that they poor when they get wet ( mine goallcloudy ). 2. How many coats of tung does a rod need, until it can take no more? 3. I assume that the whippings still need varnishing? And thatthisis done prior to oiling? 4. Does the oiling need doing regularly from then on, each timeyoutake it out, once a season, once a decade? Sorry to be such a beginner. thanks SimonI have a queation regarding tung oil. I was under the impression thatyou had to recoat the rod or surface occasionaly when you used tung oil.Would not the wax get in the way of this re-coating? It would be kind ofhard I think to remove all the wax prior to a recoating I would think.-- Martin Jensen from mrj@seanet.com Tue Oct 7 18:43:03 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20200 for Subject: Re: Catch & release Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-07 07:16:35 EDT, you write: Did someone mention a California Strain of Brookie that they thoughwas20 years old? Thats awfully old. In some of the lakes in WA, mainly highcountry lakes there have been populations of Brookies that were maybe5to 8 years old. They were stunted. Really big heads small bodys. Prettyugly really.-- Martin Jensen >> Martin, I did. Just repeating what I read about ONE brook trout that livedtobe 20 and only 8" long - not a whole strain. Don BurnsMan, 20 years old and only 8 inches long. You would think that he musthave had around 10 or 12 years of solid boredom to say the least. Thismust have been in a lake right. I bet he knew EVERY square inch of thatbody of water and I'm talking EVERY square inch. Though you know, uphere in WA. I have read studies about the trout in fast growing waters.When they grow big and fast, they don't seem to live very long. Usuallyonly a few years. If you are small you could probably always find food.Even Zooplankton would be enough for an 8 inch trout to live on. Thatmay be why he lived so long.Note: I do realize that this fish may have been female. It just saves onthe typing to pick a jender and stay with it.-- Martin Jensen from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Tue Oct 7 19:26:47 1997 (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Finishes type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Personally I like the matte finish of tung oil, and I know Ihave to wax a rod finished in tung oil. But, now that I havesold a few of my rods, one thing everyone should know, andthis is from experience - a pure tung oil finish does not sellwell. People like the glossy glint of a thick polyurethanecoat. Most of the comments I get about the tung oil finishare "When are you going to finish this one?" If I have a tungfinished rod next to a polyurethane finished rod, invariablyguys pick up the poly finished rod first. This is why I have been working on and posting about thedipping tube / dust free drying / low cost rod puller. I hadsettled on a tung oil finish myself, but the people who buythe rods don't seem to like it. Tung is okay for your ownpersonal rods if you like the finish, but if you are ever goingto sell any of your rods, bite the bullet and get a dip tubesetup. The Number One feature that is going to sell arod is a flawless finish. Straightness is next. Darryl Hayashida Darryl:You are so-o-o-o right. from years of cabinet making and fly rodbuilding, my experience has been most potential purchasers, rightly orwrongly, look at the finish first. The high gloss, imperfection-freefinish is difficult to achieve. But, when you're selling expensive flyrods, customers expect to be dazzled. It's a common mistake, I thinkwith builders, to let-up in the last phase of the project. After so manyhours of splitting, planing, gluing, wrapping, straightening the closeryou get to the finished rodthe more you want to bring it to conclusion.Slap some tung oil on and be done with it. Most 'customers' don't reallycare about the hand made 'dove-tail joints' in your cabinet  or, forthat matter, any of small details we builders spend so much time on whenwe build our cane rods. Customers admire a flawless high-gloss finishand it helps to justify to themselves and others (like their spouse) thehigh cost of the rod. That, I think, is human nature and if you're planto sell the rods you build, you've got to get into your customers head.Besides, a good varnish finish, though not a perfect moisture barrier byany stretch, does do a better job in the long term than tung oil. Joe LovertiLoverti Cane Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from saltwein@swbell.net Tue Oct 7 19:33:15 1997 Subject: Re: Robert Milardo wrote: Some time ago there was a discussion on drying green wood. I have somecherryI'd like to age for reel seats. What shall I coat the end grain with toprevent checking? Paraffin and something as a solvent? (It's agorgious dayhere in Maine, sunny, bright, cool, autumn colors, and I wish I was outcasting to some of those young brookies you all have been chatting on.)Bob. Bob, Have you tried turning green wood. If it is not too green (freshly cut)youshould be able to turn it rather easily. The idea is to save thechips from the turning and put them in a box. When the turning iscomplete, or nearly so, bury it among the chips and let it dry for amonth or so. The wood dries more quickly in a smaller piece and thechips keep it from drying out too quickly. Or paint the ends with any good primer and be prepared to wait a year orso for a good sized log. Which reminds me I have some four year oldwalnut I need to look at. Regards, Steve from saltwein@swbell.net Tue Oct 7 19:36:50 1997 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking/greenheart Further, occasionally there are greenheart blanks available from MerryOldeEngland. Expect they are Sharpe's blanks. The come ferruled with brassferrules. Bought one about 10+ years ago. Cast OK. Don, How long is that greenheart rod? Did you ever weigh it? Regards, Steve from stevef@inetone.net Tue Oct 7 19:39:20 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 07 Oct 1997 20:42:16 -0400 (206.105.173.32::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 07 Oct1997 20:42:15 -0400 Subject: Re: None Woodworking supply places sell a special chemical formulation called PEG, but plain oil based paint, any color, works great.steve from stevef@inetone.net Tue Oct 7 19:53:42 1997 (router,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 07 Oct 1997 20:56:47 -0400 (206.105.173.32::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Tue, 07 Oct1997 20:56:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Finishes Most solvents, even mild, willremove wax but not the tung oil. Has anyone tryed my favorite furniture finish 1/3 tungoil, 1/3 polyurathene, and 1/3 turpentine. Makes a great finish! from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Oct 7 20:02:37 1997 Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:01:21 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Tung removal? On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-07 11:14:00 EDT, you write: Is it possible (or even necessary) to remove a Tung Oil finish from a rod if I decide to go the varnish route? I coated the rod inquestion with 10 applications of tung and I have yet to apply a wax overcoat. Most polyurethanes will go over tung oil. I would go over the rodlightly with 0000 steel wool and then wipe it down with mineralspirits (paint thinner) before coating it with poly. I wouldn't be too quick to panic over this though. Tung oil andwaxing has been the traditional coating for over a hundredyears, and that's back when they used hide glue which isn'twaterproof at all. Darryl Hayashida That's true, but they also used about a lot of intermediate bindings. I'm refinishing one right now. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from domenic1@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 7 20:58:20 1997 ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Quad planing forms I am looking for a set of Quad forms,does anyone know where I can getthem?Does anyone have a used set that they want to sell? ThanksDomenic Croce from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Oct 7 22:44:34 1997 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking/greenheart At 19:37 07/10/97 -0700, you wrote:Further, occasionally there are greenheart blanks available from MerryOldeEngland. Expect they are Sharpe's blanks. The come ferruled with brassferrules. Bought one about 10+ years ago. Cast OK. Don, How long is that greenheart rod? Did you ever weigh it? Regards, Steve Steve, It's 7'6" and carries a 5 wt. fine. Never weighted it but it feels about aslight/heavy as cane in your hand. Don from flyfisher@circle.net Tue Oct 7 22:50:33 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA06794 for ; Subject: Re: [2] Gluing, Varnishing Don Andersen wrote: Donald, Varnish would likely dry prior to going into the pores of the rod. Like Isaid, "if you could get a varnish etc." and I think Orivs impregnation iswithin the cane - never sawed one apart and looked - any volunteers? If I could afford to get a rod just to cut it up, I wouldn't be tryingto make one! :) Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from Bopep@aol.com Wed Oct 8 00:01:59 1997 Subject: Re:Where's some bamboo? Can anybody tell me of another source for a bundle of bamboo? Demarestisapparently out at this time and I have many projects in mind...Many thanks for any advice,Rob Hoffhines from rclarke@eou.edu Wed Oct 8 00:47:08 1997 Subject: Re: Re:Where's some bamboo? You might try Andy Royer out of Seattle. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Bopep@aol.com Subject: Re:Where's some bamboo?Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 10:01 PM Can anybody tell me of another source for a bundle of bamboo? Demarestisapparently out at this time and I have many projects in mind...Many thanks for any advice,Rob Hoffhines from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Oct 8 06:14:16 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: rodmakers dream Last night I experience a bamboo rod makers dream come true, I went overto Andy Royer's warehouse to pick up my two bundles of cane (10 culms toa bundle) and there in front of me was a pile of bundles 12' square andabout 10' feet tall. It made me moist. The cane has some water stainingdue to condensation in the container on the way over here (Seattle) .Out of two bundles, 20 culms, I found them all to have a nice blondecolor only one piece having a growers mark, first bundle had 3 culmswith leaf nodes and all the culms are pretty straight with no marks orsigns of fire damage and no stress or fracture marks from straightening.The culms varied in size from 1 3/4" to about 2 1/4" and all had prettygood power fiber with some (culms in the bundles) being much better thatthe others - all in all they all had plenty of power fiber as good aswhat I got from Demerest. His bamboo comes 10 culms to a bundle and forless than 5 bundles they are $15 a culm and for 5 bundles it's $13 aculm. Due to the surface water stains you are getting what you pay for-good culms with good color and good power fiber and straight but withsome with what looks like surface water staining. Unlike the cane Ireceived from all of the other suppliers the only crack in all of my 12'culms was and is the drying split I put in last night. Darryl Whiteheadtook a look at the culms and Andy told me that Darryl said he hadn'tseen culms with this good color in years. Having not talked to Darryland I could veriify whether or not he said this or not. Andy has about100 bundles (1000 culms) left out of about 700 bundles that clearedcustoms this past week. Patrick from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Oct 8 06:52:38 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: the violin shop that I worked at air dried all the wood that they usedand sold and what we found to be the best sealer for us was to meltparaffin at a low temperature and mix is 50x50 with paint thinner. Itonly penetrated about 1 or 2 mm and shrunk with the wood and comp[etelysealed the end grain and prevented the wood from drying to fast andchecking. In the 8 years that I worked there we never experienced anychecking in the spruce, maple, ebony or rosewood that we dried. The rulewas one year of drying for each inch of thickness. When heated and mixedit had the consistence of thick noxema, and the paint thinner let theparaffin penetrate before it evaporated. Patrick ----------From: RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU[SMTP:RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:10 AM Some time ago there was a discussion on drying green wood. I havesome cherryI'd like to age for reel seats. What shall I coat the end grain withtoprevent checking? Paraffin and something as a solvent? (It's agorgious dayhere in Maine, sunny, bright, cool, autumn colors, and I wish I wasoutcasting to some of those young brookies you all have been chattingon.) Bob. from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Oct 8 07:41:44 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA16913 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Finishes I believe, according to everything that I've read here, that you woulduse a mineral spirits of sorts to remove the wax. I have yet to re-coata rod though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Martin Jensen [SMTP:mrj@seanet.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Finishes I have a queation regarding tung oil. I was under the impression thatyou had to recoat the rod or surface occasionaly when you used tungoil.Would not the wax get in the way of this re-coating? It would be kindofhard I think to remove all the wax prior to a recoating I would think.-- Martin Jensen from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Wed Oct 8 08:14:57 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:14:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Wood for rodmaking Reed F. Curry wrote: John A. Whitaker wrote: I'm looking for a winter experiment and am thinking of building ahardwood rod. Does anyone know what woods were used? (I knowlemonwood but there has to be others...) Does anyone have experience withthis? Any advice or suggested tapers?John,I would suggest you read some of the available literature on thissubject. H.P. Wells, in Fly-Rods and Fly-Tackle, for example, lists 23different woods and describes their merits. I would type in that list,but without all the additional detail it would be meaningless.I will note that he highly recommends (if you can't use splitcane) abutt of ash, and mid and tip of lancewood. Next in preference is mahoe,then shagbark hickory, etc.Best regards,Reed Thanks for the great lead!!! from pallen@wcoil.com Wed Oct 8 09:30:18 1997 alpha.wcoil.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA09685 for Subject: Andy Royer's phone number? You might try Andy Royer out of Seattle. Anyone have Andy's phone number or e-mail? Thanks in advance... Patrick from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Wed Oct 8 09:50:51 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 09:51:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Andy Royer's phone number? 4.0.995.52 Andy RoyerPO Box 2422Vashon, WA 98070(206) 463-3771(206) 463-3012 fxandyr@bamboohw.comBamboo Hardwoods(206) 223-0658 ----------From: Patrick Allen[SMTP:pallen@wcoil.com]Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 8:24 AM Subject: Andy Royer's phone number? You might try Andy Royer out of Seattle. Anyone have Andy's phone number or e-mail? Thanks in advance... Patrick from mrj@seanet.com Wed Oct 8 11:13:42 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07368 for Subject: Re: Finishes Thoman, Brian wrote: I believe, according to everything that I've read here, that you woulduse a mineral spirits of sorts to remove the wax. I have yet to re-coata rod though. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Martin Jensen [SMTP:mrj@seanet.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Finishes I have a queation regarding tung oil. I was under the impression thatyou had to recoat the rod or surface occasionaly when you used tungoil.Would not the wax get in the way of this re-coating? It would be kindofhard I think to remove all the wax prior to a recoating I would think.--Martin Jensen Thanks Thomas, I am going off of my experience of using tung oil for hardwood flooring.I was told to recoat it every so often (like every few years or so.-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Oct 8 11:58:22 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id MAA18870 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: Refinishing an old rod I have been asked to give a price quote on refinishing a rod. Nothaving done this before I'm not sure of the original maker. It appearsto say Golden Princess, although all I can really see for sure is thePrincess part. It is 7' and is for a line size (?) HDH. It is flamedwith black wraps and a cork ring seat with a grooved area for the thumbin the grip. The node alignment in 2x2x2. The ferrules appear to beblackened or maybe even green. The number on the sections is 3679. Thetip appears to be about an inch short and the tip top is loose where thestrips appear to be de-laminating for the first inch or two. Any ideas who the maker may be? I'm not sure I want to take on thistask since it appears to be an entire rebuild. Brian from mweber@icscorp.com Wed Oct 8 12:27:36 1997 Subject: Re: Andy Royer's phone number? Andy Royer can be reached at 206-463-3771. I called yesterday and gothisanswering machine. Good Luck. Mike Weber At 10:24 AM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:You might try Andy Royer out of Seattle. Anyone have Andy's phone number or e-mail? Thanks in advance... Patrick from David@Gwyn.net Wed Oct 8 12:41:52 1997 Subject: Rod Making Tools As a beginner in the rod building world, I perceive I need at least a fewtools to get started. I'm currently looking at wrapping tools, as it seemslike it would be a lot easier to rotate the rod while wrapping and finishingthe guides using a tool rather than on my lap, table, etc. I doubt that I'mgoing to be shaping cork right away, so does it make more sense to get amanual one now and grow up to something more feature-rich later or not? Anyrecommendations as to brands would be helpful also. In case there is a difference, I'll be making graphite rods. Thanks,David GwynDavid@Gwyn.Nethttp://www.gwyn.net from d-deloach1@ti.com Wed Oct 8 14:01:31 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21794 for ; Wed, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id PJTAAGCF; Wed,8 Oct 1997 14:00:56 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: re: Rod Making Tools David: This is a listserv for makers of bamboo fly rods. To answer your question,yes,there IS a big difference between working with bamboo vs. graphite. Themaindifference is that as a graphite builder you will purchase a ready madeblankwhile as bamboo builders making the blank out of raw tonkin bamboo is95% ofour work. You won't find this list to be very helpful in learning more about graphiterodwrapping. I suggest L.A. Garcia or Skip Morris' recent books on the subject.These are excellent books which give you all the tips and toolrecomendations,as well as good photography to help you throught the steps ofwrapping/finishing. The Morris book is called "The Custom Graphite FlyRod" Ithink. You should be able to find either book at your local Border's or at flyshops. Good Luck,Don DeLoach ------------------Original text As a beginner in the rod building world, I perceive I need at least a fewtools to get started. I'm currently looking at wrapping tools, as it seemslike it would be a lot easier to rotate the rod while wrapping and finishingthe guides using a tool rather than on my lap, table, etc. I doubt that I'mgoing to be shaping cork right away, so does it make more sense to get amanual one now and grow up to something more feature-rich later or not? Anyrecommendations as to brands would be helpful also. In case there is a difference, I'll be making graphite rods. Thanks,David GwynDavid@Gwyn.Nethttp://www.gwyn.net from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Wed Oct 8 14:15:59 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA235 for ;Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:21:06 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000D395; Wed, 8 Oct 9714:39:53 -0500 Subject: was someone looking? Someone posted a question about 4 sided forms... but I deleted the post. Anyway, whoever it was, there's an ad in the Planing Form for 4,5, &6 sided forms thru Merriconeag Rods. They're made of 3/4 inch aluminum. They list the 4 sided forms at $280.00 The contact info: RFD #1 Box 95Harpswell, Maine 04079207.725.5496 ph207.729.6350 fxgeorge.barnes@acornbbs.com I'm not affiliated, just passing the info along. Eck It's a slow day at work... from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 8 14:24:04 1997 Subject: Refinishing an old rod RO>I have been asked to give a price quote on refinishing a rod. NotRO>having done this before I'm not sure of the original maker. It appearsRO>to say Golden Princess, although all I can really see for sure is theRO>Princess part. It is 7' and is for a line size (?) HDH. It is flamedRO>with black wraps and a cork ring seat with a grooved area for thethumbRO>in the grip. The node alignment in 2x2x2. The ferrules appear to beRO>blackened or maybe even green. The number on the sections is 3679. TheRO>tip appears to be about an inch short and the tip top is loose where theRO>strips appear to be de-laminating for the first inch or two. RO>Any ideas who the maker may be? I'm not sure I want to take on thisRO>task since it appears to be an entire rebuild. RO>Brian Brian, Don't know - at 1st the thumb rest made it sound like a South Bend, BUTI doubt a S.B would have 2-2-2 node spacing. Also the S/N makes it soundlike a better quality rod. The HDH was the old line rating method for a DT-type silk line. About a5wt line. You can easily reglue the delamination with Titebond II wood glue andwrap the area with waxed dental floss until the glue dries. Try toremove all old glue 1st and take care so as not to break any of the canestrips. Do fill all of the delam with glue. Good luck Don Burns from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Oct 8 17:47:52 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Catch & release Don,I'd be delighted to talk to Raiph-it sounds like the Ca. strain is verylike the Shenandoah strain. If I could get his e-mail address it would begreat. Thanks.Hank. from pallen@wcoil.com Wed Oct 8 18:01:23 1997 alpha.wcoil.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA16818 for Subject: Re:Where's some bamboo? Is there anyone in the Ohio area (or S. Michigan) who would be interestedin either selling me a few culms of bamboo or splitting an order of AndyRoyer's Cane? If so, please e-mail me off list. Thanks... Patrick Allenpallen@wcoil.com from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Oct 8 18:29:41 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: New guy searching for used / excess tools, equipment Frank Stetzer wrote: I didn't see anyone answer this so I'll give my $.02. If you are anywhere near Chicago or Milwaukee, be sure to stop inat American Science and Surplus. You will find lots of mechanicalgizmos. Some things I've either bought or made note of:6 inch pulleys for Milward style binders: $3others pulleys priced proportionalLow rpm motors for rod dryers: $1-$4Stepper motors for dip tanks: $4 ( several models; I haven't looked atspecs)Tyvek coveralls for hand varnishing: $3Ball Bearings for plane levelers and other jigs: Plus a zillion other things at similar prices. They have a catalogand a web page, but I think it would be hard to pick a lot of stuffout without seeing it. Inventory changes. If you need one or more planes, try contacting used tool dealerPatrick Leach at leach@supertool.com . You can get a useable plane better quality, in most regards. I've bought several bench andblock planes from Leach.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. Frank, do you happen to have an address, or phone number, or url forAmerican Science and Surplus. Even guys in Louisiana would be interestedin someplace to order good stuff. Most of what I need I've had to searchlong and hard for.ThanksHarry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Oct 8 18:58:27 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: FW: rodmakers dream ----------From: Coffey, Patrick WSent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 8:19 AM Subject: rodmakers dream Last night I experience a bamboo rod makers dream come true, I wentover to Andy Royer's warehouse to pick up my two bundles of cane (10culms to a bundle) and there in front of me was a pile of bundles 12'square and about 10' feet tall. It made me moist. The cane has somewater staining due to condensation in the container on the way overhere (Seattle) . Out of two bundles, 20 culms, I found them all tohave a nice blonde color only one piece having a growers mark, firstbundle had 3 culms with leaf nodes and all the culms are prettystraight with no marks or signs of fire damage and no stress orfracture marks from straightening. The culms varied in size from 13/4" to about 2 1/4" and all had pretty good power fiber with some(culms in the bundles) being much better that the others - all in allthey all had plenty of power fiber as good as what I got fromDemerest. His bamboo comes 10 culms to a bundle and for less than 5bundles they are $15 a culm and for 5 bundles it's $13 a culm. Due tothe surface water stains you are getting what you pay for- good culmswith good color and good power fiber and straight but with some withwhat looks like surface water staining. Unlike the cane I received from all of the other suppliers the only crack in all of my 12' culmswas and is the drying split I put in last night. Darryl Whitehead tooka look at the culms and Andy told me that Darryl said he hadn't seenculms with this good color in years. Having not talked to Darryl and Icould veriify whether or not he said this or not. Andy has about 100bundles (1000 culms) left out of about 700 bundles that clearedcustoms this past week. Patrick from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Oct 8 18:58:34 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: FW: ----------From: Coffey, Patrick WSent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:37 AM Subject: RE: the violin shop that I worked at air dried all the wood that they usedand sold and what we found to be the best sealer for us was to meltparaffin at a low temperature and mix is 50x50 with paint thinner. Itonly penetrated about 1 or 2 mm and shrunk with the wood andcomp[etely sealed the end grain and prevented the wood from drying tofast and checking. In the 8 years that I worked there we neverexperienced any checking in the spruce, maple, ebony or rosewood thatwe dried. The rule was one year of drying for each inch of thickness.When heated and mixed it had the consistence of thick noxema, and thepaint thinner let the paraffin penetrate before it evaporated. Patrick ----------From: RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU[SMTP:RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU]Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 9:10 AM Some time ago there was a discussion on drying green wood. I havesome cherryI'd like to age for reel seats. What shall I coat the end grain withtoprevent checking? Paraffin and something as a solvent? (It's agorgious dayhere in Maine, sunny, bright, cool, autumn colors, and I wish I wasoutcasting to some of those young brookies you all have been chattingon.) Bob. from russett@bcn.net Wed Oct 8 19:12:10 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20325 for Subject: disconnect please disconnect... need more time in my life for planeing from rcurry@jlc.net Wed Oct 8 20:19:27 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA29137 for Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rod flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>I have been asked to give a price quote on refinishing a rod. NotRO>having done this before I'm not sure of the original maker. It appearsRO>to say Golden Princess, although all I can really see for sure is theRO>Princess part. It is 7' and is for a line size (?) HDH. It is flamedRO>with black wraps and a cork ring seat with a grooved area for thethumbRO>in the grip. The node alignment in 2x2x2. The ferrules appear to beRO>blackened or maybe even green. The number on the sections is 3679. TheRO>tip appears to be about an inch short and the tip top is loose wheretheRO>strips appear to be de-laminating for the first inch or two. RO>Any ideas who the maker may be? I'm not sure I want to take on thisRO>task since it appears to be an entire rebuild. RO>Brian Brian, Don't know - at 1st the thumb rest made it sound like a South Bend, BUTI doubt a S.B would have 2-2-2 node spacing. Also the S/N makes it soundlike a better quality rod. The HDH was the old line rating method for a DT-type silk line. About a5wt line. You can easily reglue the delamination with Titebond II wood glue andwrap the area with waxed dental floss until the glue dries. Try toremove all old glue 1st and take care so as not to break any of the canestrips. Do fill all of the delam with glue. Good luck Don BurnsBrian,I wouldn't use Titebond II, this rod delaminated so it was probablyglued with hide glue. If you use some other glue you will (probably)ruin the action, a discernible difference in flex will be produced inthat section. Clean the delaminated area with warm water, then applyplenty of hot (warm) hide glue. Bind, wipe excess glue off with dampcloth and wait. Remove wraps and much of the hide glue will flake off,the rest scrapes off easily.Good luck,Reed from mrj@seanet.com Wed Oct 8 20:43:08 1997 (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21117 for Subject: Re: disconnect Larry & Jane Russett wrote: please disconnect... need more time in my life for planeing You can't do it this way. address a message to LISTPROC@mail.wustl.eduIn the body of the message type unsubscribe followed by your name.Basically the same as when you subbed up with the "un" in fromt of it.-- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 8 21:37:51 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release RO>Don,RO> I'd be delighted to talk to Raiph-it sounds like the Ca. strain is veryRO>like the Shenandoah strain. If I could get his e-mail address it wouldbeRO>great. Thanks.RO> Hank. Hank, I can't find Ralph's email address, I've got his old URL: address. BUTthe company running the server disappeared, I believe - leaving Ralphwithout his page. Here it is: http://www.flyline.com Also, try this one - might link? -- http://www.insideout.com/current/s_fish.htm Tight lines, Don B.flyfisher@cmix.com PS - OBTW, a great URL for looking at some pictures of the CA Goldentrout is: http://www1.ridgecrest.ca.us/~auborn/agua/goldentrout.html from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 8 21:37:54 1997 Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rod RO>Brian,RO> I wouldn't use Titebond II, this rod delaminated so it wasprobablyRO>glued with hide glue. If you use some other glue you will (probably)RO>ruin the action, a discernible difference in flex will be produced inRO>that section. Clean the delaminated area with warm water, then applyRO>plenty of hot (warm) hide glue. Bind, wipe excess glue off with dampRO>cloth and wait. Remove wraps and much of the hide glue will flake off,RO>the rest scrapes off easily.RO>Good luck,RO>Reed But Reed this is under the tiptop - can't see how the action will bechanged? Don B. from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Oct 8 22:12:07 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Don,I'd be delighted to talk to Raiph-it sounds like the Ca. strain isverylike the Shenandoah strain. If I could get his e-mail address it wouldbegreat. Thanks.Hank. Hank, If it is I you want.: rmoon@ida.netRalph from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Oct 8 23:01:41 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Andy Royer's phone number? try 206-463-2649 but keep in mind that this stuff does has some waterstains but if you flame your rods you will never notice them. I couldn'ttell if it was surface stains or how deep they went. They weresupposedly unstained when they left china and the staining was caused bycondensation. You might check with martin jensen he bought the otherhalf of the five bundles I was a part of. ----------From: Michael D. Weber[SMTP:mweber@icscorp.com]Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Andy Royer's phone number? Andy Royer can be reached at 206-463-3771. I called yesterday and gothisanswering machine. Good Luck. Mike Weber At 10:24 AM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote:You might try Andy Royer out of Seattle. Anyone have Andy's phone number or e-mail? Thanks in advance... Patrick from santiago@ricochet.net Wed Oct 8 23:39:11 1997 XAA10738 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:40:45 - Subject: from andy royer Greetings, Yes, my bamboo has landed in a warehouse in Seattle. Those of you whohave set up reservations for bundles should be receiving them within one week,they are being sent out via common carrier today, Oct. 8th. I must leave town week, I will return to Seattle on Oct. 15 and only then will I be ableto return phone calls and emails, I apologize for any inconveniences. The container did withstand quite a bit of condensation on the way over andmany of these poles have a thin layer of mold on them. For the most part it isnot a problem, some bundles however did receive significant damage. I havespent the past several days at the warehouse doing my best to sort out thesebundles. I am doing this by opening the end of each bundle to check for damage. This means that every bundle has been opened in Seattle. This does not meanthat this material has been high-graded, I am doing my best to get goodmaterial out to everyone. If anyone receives poles which they think are unusable,please contact me and I will attempt to rectify the problem. Thank you. Andy Royerandyr@bamboohw.com(206) 463-3771 from jczimny@dol.net Thu Oct 9 00:06:28 1997 Subject: Re: Tung removal? eric.koehler wrote: With all the discussion and speculation of the inadequacy of Tung Oilfinishes... Is it possible (or even necessary) to remove a Tung Oil finish from arod if I decide to go the varnish route? I coated the rod in questionwith 10 applications of tung and I have yet to apply a wax overcoat. Thanks,EckNo. Just sand it down.John Zimny from mrj@seanet.com Thu Oct 9 00:18:17 1997 mx.seanet.com (8.8.5/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA28276 for Subject: Re: from andy royer Leo Santiago wrote: Greetings, Yes, my bamboo has landed in a warehouse in Seattle. Those of you whohave setup reservations for bundles should be receiving them within one week,they arebeing sent out via common carrier today, Oct. 8th. I must leave town week, I will return to Seattle on Oct. 15 and only then will I be abletoreturn phone calls and emails, I apologize for any inconveniences. Thecontainer did withstand quite a bit of condensation on the way over andmany ofthese poles have a thin layer of mold on them. For the most part it isnot aproblem, some bundles however did receive significant damage. I havespent thepast several days at the warehouse doing my best to sort out thesebundles. Iam doing this by opening the end of each bundle to check for damage.Thismeans that every bundle has been opened in Seattle. This does not meanthatthis material has been high-graded, I am doing my best to get goodmaterial outto everyone. If anyone receives poles which they think are unusable,pleasecontact me and I will attempt to rectify the problem. Thank you. Andy Royerandyr@bamboohw.com(206) 463-3771 I can verify about the mold. I have picked up 3 bundles, 2 of which are problem. On one pole out of 30 I found one spot about the size of anegg that appeared to have bad mold. It was about 2 feet from the end Ithink. In addition like Pat mentioned, I found one stick only that had asplit in it about a foot and a half long. I can't help but wonder ifthis may be because I am getting it so fresh off the boat if you knowwhat I mean. -- Martin Jensen from flyfisher@rhco.com Thu Oct 9 07:04:53 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA05246 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Refinishing an old rod The delamination starts at the tip and goes almost 2 inches. Inaddition, I forgot to mention that the ferrules do not have moistureplugs. I can see the end of the sections. Does this help to identifythe age of the rod? Brian -----Original Message-----From: flyfisher@cmix.com [SMTP:flyfisher@cmix.com]Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 9:18 PM Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rod RO>Brian,RO> I wouldn't use Titebond II, this rod delaminated so it wasprobablyRO>glued with hide glue. If you use some other glue you will(probably)RO>ruin the action, a discernible difference in flex will be producedinRO>that section. Clean the delaminated area with warm water, thenapplyRO>plenty of hot (warm) hide glue. Bind, wipe excess glue off withdampRO>cloth and wait. Remove wraps and much of the hide glue will flakeoff,RO>the rest scrapes off easily.RO>Good luck,RO>Reed But Reed this is under the tiptop - can't see how the action will bechanged? Don B. from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Oct 9 08:37:02 1997 IAA11662 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:37:00 - (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id IAA09314 for ; Subject: Re: New guy searching for used / excess tools, equipment Its at http://www.sciplus.com/ There is a link to it from Jerry Foster's Rodmaker Page. I've never tried to order from the catalog, since I'm only a few miles from the store. --Frank Stetzer On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: Frank, do you happen to have an address, or phone number, or url forAmerican Science and Surplus. Even guys in Louisiana would be interestedin someplace to order good stuff. Most of what I need I've had to searchlong and hard for.ThanksHarry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Oct 9 09:18:01 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA12947 for; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:17:56 -0400 Subject: Unusual request Hello all, I just got a computer upgrade with a decent montior, finally. Do any of you know where I can download a picture of a bamboo flyrod to use Thanks. tom from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Oct 9 09:20:09 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:20:02 EDT Subject: Cane Just curious, are there any makers in NY that would be interested in splitting a bundle with me from Royer or Demerest in the near future. I cannot afford a whole bundle....that simple.....I had to pay for text books you know. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from Thomas.Ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Thu Oct 9 09:26:05 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA12869 for; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:26:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Cane Jon, I'm in Vermont, but have ties in Schenectady, NY. If you don't get any bites closer to you, I'm sure we cam work something out.Let me know.t Just curious, are there any makers in NY that would be interested in splitting a bundle with me from Royer or Demerest in the near future. I cannot afford a whole bundle....that simple.....I had to pay for text books you know. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu Oct 9 09:45:40 1997 Subject: RE: Refinishing an old rod RO>The delamination starts at the tip and goes almost 2 inches. InRO>addition, I forgot to mention that the ferrules do not have moistureRO>plugs. I can see the end of the sections. Does this help to identifyRO>the age of the rod? RO>Brian Brian, Not much unless you are talking about the male half of the ferrules notbeing water-proofed. Many production rod makers had lower-level rods that were notwater- proofed inside the females - right on up to the last days ofproduction in the '50's. Try asking Len Codella, Dick Spurr or one of the other experts that runa rod list. If you can wait for an answer you could try emailing MichaelSinclair too. His email address is Caneclinic@aol.com. Michael cansometimes be slow at reading his mail. Donflyfisher@cmix.com PS - You can post directly to me for some phone #'s - if needed. from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu Oct 9 10:02:59 1997 Subject: Re: Catch & release RO>Don,RO> I'd be delighted to talk to Raiph-it sounds like the Ca. strain is veryRO>like the Shenandoah strain. If I could get his e-mail address it wouldbeRO>great. Thanks.RO> Hank. Hank, I found Ralph Cutter's email address (I hope it's his new one). Don Burns PS - address: from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Thu Oct 9 12:09:54 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 12:10:25 -0500 Subject: Seen on The VFS WEB Page 4.0.995.52 Rodmakers, Bamboo Fly Rod MakingEquipment Complete Posted by John Uscian (uscian@darwin.upr.clu.edu) Garrison-Carmichael 6' & 3' planing forms, gluing binder,planes, lathe (36" bed, 9" swing), lathe acces. (chucks,taper mech., etc.), micrometers, dial depth guage with 60degree bevel. All almost unused (except for lathe)$4,500(787)255-6856 evening from WDHCJL@aol.com Thu Oct 9 13:27:00 1997 Subject: Re: Unusual request In a message dated 97-10-09 10:21:13 EDT, you write: Why not use the artwork from the Makers Rod 98?http://members.aol.com/planecane1/index.htmdoug from Fallcreek9@aol.com Thu Oct 9 15:34:41 1997 Subject: Re: Tonkin Bamboo Shippment In a message dated 97-10-09 00:45:34 EDT, Andy Wrote: Yes, my bamboo has landed in a warehouse in Seattle. Those of you whohave set up reservations for bundles should be receiving them within one week,they are being sent out via common carrier today, Oct. 8th. I must leave town week, I will return to Seattle on Oct. 15 and only then will I be ableto return phone calls and emails, I apologize for any inconveniences. The Andy, Doug, anyone!!:I live in a rural setting and I NEED to know the name of the carrier and acontact number so that I can arrange to pick up my bamboo in Nashville,TN.Otherwise, it might end up in an "undelivered-for-salvage" catagory.PLEASE call and leave word or e-mail me with trucking company name,contactphone number, and bill of lading no. or other shippment ident. Since Andy is going to be out of contact for about a week, I am quiteconcerned about the order. Any help anyone can give would be greatlyappreciated. Thank you,Richard Tyree Fall Creek Rod Co4192 Alsup Mill RdLascassas, TN 37085 Ph: 1-615- 286-2343 e-mail: Fallcreek9@aol.com from rcurry@jlc.net Thu Oct 9 16:45:29 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA20124 for Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rod Thoman, Brian wrote: The delamination starts at the tip and goes almost 2 inches. Inaddition, I forgot to mention that the ferrules do not have moistureplugs. I can see the end of the sections. Does this help to identifythe age of the rod? Brian Brian,It might be well to remove the tiptop and spread the splits with pins.If you work the pins downward, evenly, I'll bet the delam grows at least2" longer.Best regards,Reed from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Oct 9 20:52:39 1997 Subject: Re: Re: Refinishing an old rod Reed,I bet if you run those pins down far enough you can delam the wholething:-).Hank. from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Fri Oct 10 09:54:471997 1997 14:54:36 UT 07:54:39 -0700 Subject: Mystery "Princess" Rod Subject: Time: 10:40 AMOFFICE MEMO Mystery "Princess" Rod Date: 10/10/97 I've lost the original post so I'm sending a new message. Paul Young madea7'0" 2/2 model called Princess. It's a rare model. It had a dual ring andcork reel seat, dark flamed cane, and serial numbers. I don't know if linesize was marked or not, but HDH sounds a little heavy for this model. To further muddy the waters, H-I made a 7'0" Tonka Princess but I don'tthinkthey ever had dual ring/cork reel seats. --Rich from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Fri Oct 10 10:23:351997 1997 15:23:24 UT 97 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: Re: moisture barrier Guys: What type of "plastic" finish would be used. Doesn't Terry use an acrylicimpregnation? --Rich------------------------------ You know the only parts of the rod that doesn't get some kind ofmoisture barrier finish on the rod is under the grip and reel seat. Iwonder if we shouldn't do like terry does and seal it in plastic andthen mount the grip,guides and ferrules on and varnish.We shouldprobably seal the reel seat in plastic and then varnish. Like a lot ofpeople I have a extreme dislike for plastic but it is probably the leasthydra scopic of all the sealing material available to us today. I have aold impregnated orvis that hasn't seemed to have taken up any moistureor noticeably lost it's action after about 20 years of fishing rivershere in the great (wet) NW. Just a RAINY Saturdays rambling and 2 cents. Patrick ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 17:30:54 -0400 11:33:40-0700 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: moisture barrier from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Fri Oct 10 11:49:30 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA82 for ;Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:54:30 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000D752; Fri, 10 Oct 9712:15:51 -0500 Subject: Re: moisture barrier Along the lines of moisture barriers: I'd like to learn more about different approaches to impregnation... I read about a couple methods recently (can't remeber where) one of which was an "atmospheric" and the other a non-ambient/pressurized method. Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about the solutions and application methods and the pros and cons of each? Does anyone know Terry Ackland's method? He seemed to have done abit of hands-on work to develop his method. I remember seeing a request Eck from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Fri Oct 10 15:49:001997 1997 20:48:48 UT 13:48:55 -0700 Subject: Moisture barrier Subject: Time: 4:24 PMOFFICE MEMO Moisture barrier Date: 10/10/97 Guys: Following Terry A's discussions, there have been several references tousing"plastic" based finishes as the best sealant against ambient humidity. Arethese polyurethanes? Doesn't Terry use an acrylic impregnation? --Rich from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Oct 10 16:48:15 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Binding threads List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing? I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, Harry Boyd, Jr.fbcwin@fsbnet.com from khube@benmeadows.com Fri Oct 10 17:58:28 1997 Subject: Re: Binding threads At 04:51 PM 10/10/97 -0500, you wrote:List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing? I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, Harry Boyd, Jr.fbcwin@fsbnet.com======================================================================== Harry, Don Anderson up in Alberta got me started on macrame thread from thecraftstores and the stuff is great! Of substantial diameter, the material I havefound is 100% cotton as needed and the price is right. Give it a go. Karl HubeAtlanta from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Oct 10 18:06:29 1997 TAA22408 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:06:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Binding threads Harry Give George Maurer a call at 610-756-6385. He had several1lb spools at Roscoe and I believe he still has some left. On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:51:16 -0500, Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing? I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, Harry Boyd, Jr.fbcwin@fsbnet.com Regards Chris from flyfisher@circle.net Sat Oct 11 00:24:21 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA26767 for ; Subject: Re: Binding threads Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing?I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, I'm a weaver by trade. I'll look at work and see if we have any. Ihaven't seen any yet that would be strong enough, but I haven't seen allthe stuff we have. Do you know what size and such (16/2 waxed,natural?). Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from rclarke@eou.edu Sat Oct 11 00:32:26 1997 Subject: lathes Question to lathe owners in the group. How far between centers should Ibelooking at for a lathe to make ferrule stations, and for grip turning? Mythoughts are about 45 inches between centers, but that seams big forwhat Iam seeing on these machines. Am I missing a piece of the puzzle here? Myunderstanding is that would fit a 2 piece 7 1/2 ft rod. Can anyone help meon this one? TIA Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu from jsbond@inforamp.net Sat Oct 11 00:37:47 1997 Subject: Re: Binding threads If you live in or near a major center, you should have a supply house thatservices the apparel industry. Ask for 14/2 cotton thread. You can a lot ofthread for little money. JB At 16:51 10/10/97 -0500, you wrote:List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing? I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, Harry Boyd, Jr.fbcwin@fsbnet.com James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Oct 11 00:38:25 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: moisture barrier I emailed terry and he will impregnate a rod blank for you for a pricebut I don't think he will give out his method If you find out anythingplease put it on the list. Patrick ----------From:eric.koehler@meissner- wurst.com[SMTP:eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com]Sent: Friday, October 10, 1997 10:14 AM Subject: Re: moisture barrier Along the lines of moisture barriers: I'd like to learn more about different approaches toimpregnation... I read about a couple methods recently (can't remeber where) one of which was an "atmospheric" and the other anon-ambient/pressurized method. Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about the solutions and application methods and the pros and consof each? Does anyone know Terry Ackland's method? He seemed to have donea bit of hands-on work to develop his method. I remember seeing arequest Eck from cphisey@neca.com Sat Oct 11 00:41:22 1997 Subject: Re: Binding threads At 04:51 PM 10/10/97 -0500, you wrote:List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing? I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to save mea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, Harry Boyd, Jr.fbcwin@fsbnet.com Atlantic Thread & Supply Company carries Glace cotton thread in sizes16/4and 24/4 in 4800 (16/4) and 6000 (24/4) yard tubes in white,natural, andblack colors. My 1995 catalog lists each tube for around $17 to $19 . Thierphone # is 1-800-847-1001. Hope this helps you out.Charles Hiseycphisey@neca.com from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 11 00:46:58 1997 Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod Rich -Having been away for a few weeks I have a question about your post - areyou looking for the taper for this rod? Originally there were only 28 madebyPaul - over the past few years Todd has made a few more - but it is stillthescarced of the Youngs Wayne from rcurry@jlc.net Sat Oct 11 00:49:10 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17314 for Subject: Re: Seeking Herter's Information WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: ReedGood to see you back again - It's interesting to see the busy cycles ofsome - In talking with John Z last night it will be a year or so for him toget out from under his load.If you have ever read any of George's writing you clearly see that hewas very pointed. It's funny that you mentioned Jungle Cock - from whatI'veheard it was a shipment of JC necks that got him in trouble - that andhisattitude.Knowing your interest in silk lines - do you have any old line boxes???-we have several of the older modern line boxes but none of the classicsilkmakers. WayneNo silk line boxes, but one old SA line box from about '63, with adetailed wrapper inside describing every foot of their line models bydiameter and weight. Also a comparison of old system (HCH) and new.Reed from KDLoup@aol.com Sat Oct 11 01:31:22 1997 Subject: mold List, Since someone has brought up cane mold, I thought I would ask thefollowing questions. How much is too much mold? I recently purchasedcane from one of the companies that advertised their cane on the list. The firstorder I received had mold that was throughout the power fibers. Afterrequesting a replacement, I received cane that had mold mostly in the pithbut some mold was into the interior power fibers. The first order Idefinitely do not consider using. Would I be looking for trouble using theculms with mold in the pith and interior power fibers (may be planed out)?The best test I could think of is to split the culms and flex the strips tobreaking. Any ideas or comments? Kurt Loup from jczimny@dol.net Sat Oct 11 08:01:54 1997 Subject: Re: lathes The grip would require the longest distance between centers.If you wantto turn the grip on the rod, you'll need a distance of the length plusthe length of the reel seat plus a couple of inches of leeway. After allthis is done, add 40% to this in order to allow for unforseen needs. Ifyou don't do this last thing and then make a major investment in machineand tooling and still don't fulfil your needs, you'll be kickingyourself.John from russett@bcn.net Sat Oct 11 08:36:08 1997 adams.berk.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA26078 for Subject: Mold? I also have ordered some of andys cane.. Have no idea how long it will take to get to Massachusetts but I amreally concerned about the mold I have been hearing about... In the past if I had any mold at all on a culm i tossed it..What do you think should be done Larry from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 11 09:53:33 1997 Subject: Re: lathes Robert -When turning ferrule stations or handles on rods You stick part of therod through the headstock of the lathe - so an important feature is thetheheadstock end of the lathe is hollow and is of adequate size to pass rodparts through 3/8" - 7/16" minimum. If you can find one the olderCraftsmenwoodlathe is an excellent unit to use - I am referring to the tubular wayedone that used to sell for around $189 w/o motor. Grizzley imports have a3-jawed self centering chuck for this unit (3/4"-16 thread) for around$80. Ifound mine in a fellows basement while doing a service call several years-it cost a 'case of beer' - instead I gave him $20. Because of the specializeduse I cut of about 12" of the way for easier handling. Wayne from rclarke@eou.edu Sat Oct 11 15:16:34 1997 Subject: Re: lathes Thanks Wayne, George, Jerry and John. As you can see, I was way off onthis one. I will be in the Seattle area in November, and may stop byGrizzly to pick up a lathe. Would save the shipping. Another question. Wayne, in your book, you mentioned making your owndepthindicator. Is there a mail order company to get these dial indicatorsfrom? I found a catalog that carries the dial indicator, and the entiredepth indicator, but both are more than I was hoping to spend (about $90 Thanks for the lathe information, and any advice on this one. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: lathesDate: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:53 AM Robert -When turning ferrule stations or handles on rods You stick part oftherod through the headstock of the lathe - so an important feature is thetheheadstock end of the lathe is hollow and is of adequate size to pass rodparts through 3/8" - 7/16" minimum. If you can find one the olderCraftsmenwoodlathe is an excellent unit to use - I am referring to the tubularwayedone that used to sell for around $189 w/o motor. Grizzley imports have a3-jawed self centering chuck for this unit (3/4"-16 thread) for around$80. Ifound mine in a fellows basement while doing a service call severalyears-it cost a 'case of beer' - instead I gave him $20. Because of thespecializeduse I cut of about 12" of the way for easier handling. Wayne from Canerods@aol.com Sat Oct 11 20:09:45 1997 Subject: Re: lathes In a message dated 97-10-11 16:20:19 EDT, you write: Robert, The local Chinese tool store (Harbor Freight Tools) has the following onsaleuntil the 27th: Cen-Tech 1" round dial indicator @ $9.95 (1 rev = 0.1" - graduated lines for 0.001") - don't know if it takes 60 deg.tips. Cen-Tech Multi-Positional Magnetic Base @ $9.97 Plus a Stainless Cen-Tech 6" inner/outer/depth caliper (with 0.001" dial)@$14.99Std. "sliderule" style caliper They also carry wood lathes and metal lathes. A 7"x10" benchtop metallatheis on sale for $349.99. But these prices are for the west-coast retail stores - mail order pricesmight vary. Look in a woodworking mag. for the mail order 800 #. Don Burns from wfmack@evansville.net Sat Oct 11 20:29:11 1997 world.evansville.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, Subject: Re: lathes Robert Clarke wrote: Thanks Wayne, George, Jerry and John. As you can see, I was way off onthis one. I will be in the Seattle area in November, and may stop byGrizzly to pick up a lathe. Would save the shipping. Another question. Wayne, in your book, you mentioned making your owndepthindicator. Is there a mail order company to get these dial indicatorsfrom? I found a catalog that carries the dial indicator, and the entiredepth indicator, but both are more than I was hoping to spend (about $90 Thanks for the lathe information, and any advice on this one. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: lathesDate: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:53 AM Robert -When turning ferrule stations or handles on rods You stick part oftherod through the headstock of the lathe - so an important feature is thetheheadstock end of the lathe is hollow and is of adequate size to pass rodparts through 3/8" - 7/16" minimum. If you can find one the olderCraftsmenwoodlathe is an excellent unit to use - I am referring to the tubularwayedone that used to sell for around $189 w/o motor. Grizzley imports havea3-jawed self centering chuck for this unit (3/4"-16 thread) for around$80. Ifound mine in a fellows basement while doing a service call severalyears-it cost a 'case of beer' - instead I gave him $20. Because of thespecializeduse I cut of about 12" of the way for easier handling. WayneRobert--I got mine from MSC (800 645-7270) for about $15-20 and itworks fine. Drilled a hole in a block of wood for a tight friction fit from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 11 21:13:19 1997 Subject: Re: lathes Robert -I'm far - far too frugal to spent that kind of money on a depth indicator.Here is the recommend setup - The gauge I use is made in China andimported $11.95that's right less than 12 bucks. But to complete set up you also need asmallblock (steel or alum) 1" x1 1/2" - 2" long - Here in the Grand Rapids area Iget that from Grand Rapids Central Iron & Steel - a place that specializesinnew and used metals for the dyi type. The block is drilled with a 3/8" hole point - Enco doesn't have one but Starrett does for about $4 - the partnumber is 6632/6. When yopu are ordering the gauge from Enco there are acouple of other tools that you might want to get as well. A dial caliper -look at #610-5026 for $16.75 also get the center gage #615-6300 for $4.Encoalso sells a base for the depth gauge BUT it isn't heavy enough to hold thegauge donw to the forms unassisted. I have several sets of the above andtheyare as accurate and as smooth operating as the higher priced spread. Wayne from rcurry@jlc.net Sun Oct 12 05:42:31 1997 verdi.jlc.net (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA07464 for Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rod FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Reed,I bet if you run those pins down far enough you can delam the wholething:-).Hank.Hank,If that were true, then you probably should, eh?Would this be sheer strength of the adhesive that we are testing? Reed from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Sun Oct 12 07:09:30 1997 NAA13241 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:13:03+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re[2]: Refinishing an old rod Guys, I posted a request on refinishing an old rod, then my server died and I got thrown off the list. I got back on a day ago - BUT I think I missed all the answers! Can anyone send me a paste job of any replies that came in. Thanks Simon( currently in the North Sea ) ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Refinishing an old rodAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLO FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Reed,I bet if you run those pins down far enough you can delam the wholething :-).Hank.Hank,If that were true, then you probably should, eh?Would this be sheer strength of the adhesive that we are testing?Reed from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Oct 12 08:24:30 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Binding threads flyfisher@circle.net wrote: Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: List, Does anyone know of a mail order source for the 100% cottonupholsterythreads recommended for binding rods during heat treating and gluing?I've tried the local outlets, and the only pure cotton glaced finishthread is quilting thread. None of the local upholsterers uses anythingbut pure nylon.Along the same line, have any of you used a substitute with goodresults? There has to be another way, and you might be able to savemea little leg work with some suggestions.Thanks in advance, I'm a weaver by trade. I'll look at work and see if we have any. Ihaven't seen any yet that would be strong enough, but I haven't seen allthe stuff we have. Do you know what size and such (16/2 waxed,natural?). Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. Now I just have to decide whichway to go!Harry Boyd fbcwin@fsbnet.com from santiago@rgate.ricochet.net Sun Oct 12 11:59:21 1997 MAA11363 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:00:35 Subject: opportunity! i have several hundred blocks of very high grade (gun stock) walnut. the pieces are cut into 1x1x4. this walnut will make beautifulreelseats. would anyone like to share in this find? please email me directly fordetails...an offer you can't refuse! santiago@ricochet.net from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Oct 12 12:07:43 1997 Subject: A challenge Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build arod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At anyrate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerry canpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this wouldinclude tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who has limitedresources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc. Notablesaws allowed. What say we give it a shot. Don [bored with all the snow] Andersen from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sun Oct 12 12:07:51 1997 Subject: Got the Hots!! Guys, Got the hots to build something a little different. A quite long and alight line weight rod. Plotting a 9' 2 wt. this AM. Does anyone out therein radio land have a taper that they have fished that they would like toshare? Thanx, Don from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Oct 12 12:25:17 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: lathes in the rodmakers page under tools is msc they have very expensive dialindicators also enco has the cheap. MSC has dial indicators madeexplicitly for reading depths not one you have to read the small insideletters on. A word to the wise their catalogue is about 4" thick-hardcover and about 10 pounds. Patrick ----------From: Robert Clarke[SMTP:rclarke@eou.edu]Sent: Saturday, October 11, 1997 1:20 PM Subject: Re: lathes Thanks Wayne, George, Jerry and John. As you can see, I was way offonthis one. I will be in the Seattle area in November, and may stop byGrizzly to pick up a lathe. Would save the shipping. Another question. Wayne, in your book, you mentioned making your owndepthindicator. Is there a mail order company to get these dial indicatorsfrom? I found a catalog that carries the dial indicator, and theentiredepth indicator, but both are more than I was hoping to spend (about$90 Thanks for the lathe information, and any advice on this one. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: lathesDate: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:53 AM Robert -When turning ferrule stations or handles on rods You stick partoftherod through the headstock of the lathe - so an important feature isthetheheadstock end of the lathe is hollow and is of adequate size to passrodparts through 3/8" - 7/16" minimum. If you can find one the olderCraftsmenwoodlathe is an excellent unit to use - I am referring to thetubularwayedone that used to sell for around $189 w/o motor. Grizzley importshave a3-jawed self centering chuck for this unit (3/4"-16 thread) foraround$80. Ifound mine in a fellows basement while doing a service call severalyears-it cost a 'case of beer' - instead I gave him $20. Because of thespecializeduse I cut of about 12" of the way for easier handling. Wayne from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 12 13:18:22 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA5610 +0000 Subject: Re: A challenge Don Andersen wrote: Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build arod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At anyrate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerry canpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this wouldinclude tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who haslimitedresources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc. Notablesaws allowed. What say we give it a shot. Don [bored with all the snow] Andersen Snow? What snow? 62 IS a little nippy, but not cold enough to snow! George [we got snow once since I've been in Northern CA] Bourke from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 12 13:23:49 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA8225 +0000 Subject: Re: lathes Coffey, Patrick W wrote: in the rodmakers page under tools is msc they have very expensive dialindicators also enco has the cheap. MSC has dial indicators madeexplicitly for reading depths not one you have to read the small insideletters on. A word to the wise their catalogue is about 4" thick-hardcover and about 10 pounds. Patrick ----------From: Robert Clarke[SMTP:rclarke@eou.edu]Sent: Saturday, October 11, 1997 1:20 PM Subject: Re: lathes Thanks Wayne, George, Jerry and John. As you can see, I was way offonthis one. I will be in the Seattle area in November, and may stop byGrizzly to pick up a lathe. Would save the shipping. Another question. Wayne, in your book, you mentioned making your owndepthindicator. Is there a mail order company to get these dial indicatorsfrom? I found a catalog that carries the dial indicator, and theentiredepth indicator, but both are more than I was hoping to spend (about$90 Thanks for the lathe information, and any advice on this one. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: lathesDate: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:53 AM Robert -When turning ferrule stations or handles on rods You stick partoftherod through the headstock of the lathe - so an important feature isthetheheadstock end of the lathe is hollow and is of adequate size to passrodparts through 3/8" - 7/16" minimum. If you can find one the olderCraftsmenwoodlathe is an excellent unit to use - I am referring to thetubularwayedone that used to sell for around $189 w/o motor. Grizzley importshave a3-jawed self centering chuck for this unit (3/4"-16 thread) foraround$80. Ifound mine in a fellows basement while doing a service call severalyears-it cost a 'case of beer' - instead I gave him $20. Because of thespecializeduse I cut of about 12" of the way for easier handling. Wayne Re: Dial indicators (and most tools including CNC)Try Rutland Tool & Supply Company, they are nationwide and have a 700page catalog. They must have a hundred or so, dial indicators from $16to $200. Their phone # is 818 961-7111 (I don't have their URL handy,but they do have a website). I'm not connected with them in any wayother than having purchased a few items from them...so far, no problemswhatsoever. George Bourke from penr0295@uidaho.edu Sun Oct 12 13:53:51 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id LAA25354 for ; doing -bs Subject: Depth Gauge Base Enco also sells a base for the depth gauge BUT it isn't heavy enough tohold the gauge down to the forms unassisted. Enco may have switched to a different base, since I did not find this tobe the case with the one I bought from them a couple of months back. Ihad tried using a hardwood block weighted with lead fishing sinkers that Ihad inserted into holes that I drilled into the block, but still had noluck keeping the gauge from tipping over. Consequently, I ordered thesteel one from Enco which turned out to be more than heavy enough, andhasproven to be a very stable base for my gauge. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Sun Oct 12 14:15:55 1997 UAA13814 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:19:25+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re: A challenge I can do this, Get a bamboo garden cane, or long willow pole around 8', whip your fishing line direct to the end about 10' and your fly direct to the end of the line ( no silk or weighted line required ). Learn to stalk your fish very well, and dap from behind a bush. It works, and a lot of guys started out this way! You can get no cheaper and yet more classic than that. Simon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: A challengeAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLO Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build a rod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At any rate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerry canpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this would include tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who has limited resources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc. Notable saws allowed. What say we give it a shot. Don [bored with all the snow] Andersen from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Oct 12 14:22:41 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:22:35 EDT Subject: Nets My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was looking at it the other day and thought I would like to make one. Does anyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy, but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Oct 12 15:41:56 1997 Subject: Re: lathes Thanks Wayne. I will give Enco a call. I already have Starret's catalog,and I found the 60 point in there. Very impressive catalog. No wondertheir parts are so expensive. I appreciate your willingness to share yourexperience. I expect to spend some money on all of this, but appreciate aless expensive alternative when available. Robert "still a beginner" Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: WayneCatt@aol.com Subject: Re: lathesDate: Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:12 PM Robert -I'm far - far too frugal to spent that kind of money on a depthindicator.Here is the recommend setup - The gauge I use is made in China andimported $11.95that's right less than 12 bucks. But to complete set up you also need asmallblock (steel or alum) 1" x1 1/2" - 2" long - Here in the Grand Rapidsarea Iget that from Grand Rapids Central Iron & Steel - a place thatspecializes innew and used metals for the dyi type. The block is drilled with a 3/8"hole degreepoint - Enco doesn't have one but Starrett does for about $4 - the partnumber is 6632/6. When yopu are ordering the gauge from Enco there areacouple of other tools that you might want to get as well. A dial caliper-look at #610-5026 for $16.75 also get the center gage #615-6300 for$4.Encoalso sells a base for the depth gauge BUT it isn't heavy enough to holdthegauge donw to the forms unassisted. I have several sets of the above andtheyare as accurate and as smooth operating as the higher priced spread. Wayne from flyfisher@cmix.com Sun Oct 12 16:07:46 1997 Subject: RE:Nets RO>Subject: NetsRO>X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54)RO>X- Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN RO>My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was lookingRO>at it the other day and thought I would like to make one. DoesRO>anyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy,RO>but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?RO> Jon LintvetRO> Ithaca, New YorkRO> (607) 277-9781 Jon, Get a Netcraft catalog - (800) netcraft. Rod making and fly tying too.They have (had) a net making setup. Don Burns from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Oct 12 16:22:18 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:22:07 EDT Subject: Re: A challenge That's funny....I don't really think there is a cheap way to build a rod if you are in my position. This is the reasoning. Most people have access to a table saw at least, probably a drill press. If not themselves, someone they know would be willing to help. Personally, I paid a wood worked 50$ to build my rough forms. Something I could have done if I had the access. Whatever, I would love to help out by contributing ideas that I have found helpful. About Dial Indicators and Calipers. Everything I have heard about saving money on tools contradicts everything that has been taught to me by the fine rod makers out there. I see the goal of rod building is to reproduce results. Meaning, if you find a taper, whether your own or someone elses, you should be able to reproduce that single rod. ( I don't think I am smart enough to think up that myself, and I am sure I read it somewhere) I have heard, and believe that accuracy is important. So important in fact that being off 2-3 thousandths creates a change in rod action. So....if you are going to buy a tool, say a caliper that is a 9.99 special from MSC, and you hear that the tolerences are off 4-5 thousandths, I would think it wise to spend more money. As much as I didn't want to, I spent around $60 for my caliper. As dar as the dial indicator...the gentleman from MSC couldn't tell me about any tolerences so bought the cheap one. Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:25:57 +0000From: Don Andersen Subject: A challenge Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build arod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At anyrate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerry canpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this wouldinclude tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who haslimitedresources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc. Notablesaws allowed. What say we give it a shot. Don [bored with all the snow] Andersen Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 12 16:54:14 1997 ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: A challenge If you watch how you buy, right now is the time. The reason stainlesssteel calipers, dial gauges etc. can be bought cheaply is they are made inChina. China is in somewhat of a favored status in that it is an emergingindustrial country. Most American manufacturers are building facilitiesinChina. The cheap labor means cheap products(at least until the tariffs areraised). I found a brass refillable pencil torch the other day in thelocal hardware store. Made well and priced well; $3.50. Just what Ineeded for small work. Regards,Onis At 05:23 PM 10/12/97 +0000, you wrote:That's funny....I don't really think there is a cheap way to build a rod if you are in my position. This is the reasoning. Most people have access to a table saw at least, probably a drill press. If not themselves, someone they know would be willing to help. Personally, I paid a wood worked 50$ to build my rough forms. Something I could have done if I had the access. Whatever, I would love to help out by contributing ideas that I have found helpful. About Dial Indicators and Calipers. Everything I have heard about saving money on tools contradicts everything that has been taught to me by the fine rod makers out there. I see the goal of rod building is to reproduce results. Meaning, if you find a taper, whether your own or someone elses, you should be able to reproduce that single rod. ( I don't think I am smart enough to think up that myself, and I am sure I read it somewhere) I have heard, and believe that accuracy is important. So important in fact that being off 2-3 thousandths creates a change in rod action. So....if you are going to buy a tool, say a caliper that is a 9.99 special from MSC, and you hear that the tolerences are off 4-5 thousandths, I would think it wise to spend more money. As much as I didn't want to, I spent around $60 for my caliper. As dar as the dial indicator...the gentleman from MSC couldn't tell me about any tolerences so bought the cheap one. Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:25:57 +0000From: Don Andersen Subject: A challenge Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build arod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At anyrate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerrycanpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this wouldinclude tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who haslimitedresources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc.No tablesaws allowed. What say we give it a shot. Don [bored with all the snow] Andersen Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from rclarke@eou.edu Sun Oct 12 17:42:42 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge ----------From: Jon Lintvet Subject: Re: A challengeDate: Sunday, October 12, 1997 10:23 AM That's funny....I don't really think there is a cheap way to build a rod if you are in my position. This is the reasoning. Most people have access to a table saw at least, probably a drill press. If not themselves, someone they know would be willing to help. Personally, I paid a wood worked 50$ to build my rough forms. Something I could have done if I had the access. Whatever, I would love to help out by contributing ideas that I have found helpful. Jon, I was not suggesting I wanted the cheapest way to go on all of this,just a less expensive way that still did the proper job. I also do nothave a tablesaw, or a lathe (yet), but I know folks who do. I paid $26 fora cabinet maker to build my rough forms, and that included material. Ihave not used them (yet!!), but I think they are very nice. I expect tohave some out of pocket expense on all of this, but I also have a daughterto feed, bills to pay, etc. I think I am reading you that it is better tobuy good quality tools once, than it is to buy cheap stuff a few times. Iagree with this to a point. from what I am hearing from the list, some ofthe less expensive tools do as good a job as the pricy tools. If I wasrunning a big shop, I would probably buy the best tools around, but itreally does not make sense for me to do a that at this time. I think this forum we are on is a huge savings for the newbies like me. Icould spend lots of time and money on things that are going in the wrongdirection. Just my $.02. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu from MiTiernan@aol.com Sun Oct 12 18:54:09 1997 Subject: Re: Depth Gauge Base I purchased the same Enco base also. I have a cheap dial inicator whichhasa range of 0-.250. I have had no trouble with the base holding theindicatorin the groove. Luis Marden posted a note in the Planing Form about thesameset up.Worked for me, Maybe cheap means weak spring. Miles Tiernan from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sun Oct 12 19:02:39 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:58:10 MDT #19314) Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: A Challenge IMHO I think Don's idea of getting together a list of tools, materials, andsourceswould from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Sun Oct 12 19:17:04 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:14:29 MDT #19314) Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: A Challenge Sorry for the incomplete message. Something happend with server orpower? AsI was going to say that such a list as I think Don is talking about would behelpful. Being about halfway into my first and living near the end of theearthmany materials are hard to locate. In a town of close to 30,000 shoulderboltsare almost unheard of, the Stanly block plane at the one building supplythatcarried it was $50.00. The one machine shop that had shoulder boltswantedalomost $2.00 apiece. Most of the tools and equipment to build with hadto beordered. Thanks to all on the list who over the last year+ have mentionedsources. So experience is the reason I think Don's idea combined with thesource guide in Waynes book would be a good addition. Snow, cold and ifyoucan believe it wind at 7200'. just my $0.05 worthjerry from penr0295@uidaho.edu Sun Oct 12 21:02:36 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id TAA05677 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: Depth Gauge Base I purchased the same Enco base also. I have a cheap dial inicator whichhasa range of 0-.250. I have had no trouble with the base holding theindicatorin the groove... Worked for me, Maybe cheap means weak spring. Miles Tiernan My gauge has 1" of travel and a spring that would lift the gauge and itsprevious wooden base right off the table. The Enco steel base still holdsit down pretty securely. Enco may have begun selling a new, heaviermodel. The one I got does not look exactly like the one in the catalogillustration. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Oct 12 22:51:42 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:51:37 EDT Subject: Re: A challenge I understand and I agree with you. However, as a newbie also, I try to take in all the info and make up my mind. In this process however, certain blatant discrepancies appear. Like the accuracy of tools. Jon, I was not suggesting I wanted the cheapest way to go on all of this,just a less expensive way that still did the proper job. I also do nothave a tablesaw, or a lathe (yet), but I know folks who do. I paid $26 fora cabinet maker to build my rough forms, and that included material. Ihave not used them (yet!!), but I think they are very nice. I expect tohave some out of pocket expense on all of this, but I also have a daughterto feed, bills to pay, etc. I think I am reading you that it is better tobuy good quality tools once, than it is to buy cheap stuff a few times. Iagree with this to a point. from what I am hearing from the list, someofthe less expensive tools do as good a job as the pricy tools. If I wasrunning a big shop, I would probably buy the best tools around, but itreally does not make sense for me to do a that at this time. I think this forum we are on is a huge savings for the newbies like me. Icould spend lots of time and money on things that are going in the wrongdirection. Just my $.02. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 12 23:01:58 1997 mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA16275 +0000 Subject: Re: Nets Jon Lintvet wrote: My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was lookingat it the other day and thought I would like to make one. Doesanyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy,but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 Jon (et al),You may want to get Issue #34 of ShopNotes (4.95) -- it has an articleon building bent wooden frame fishing nets. The phone number to getorder (any issue or a subscription) ShopNotes is (800) 444-7002. BTW,if your rodbuilding and netbuilding techniques are any good, there isalso an article in there about building serving trays. ;)George Bourke(to reply, remove "") from jczimny@dol.net Sun Oct 12 23:55:19 1997 Subject: Re: Depth Gauge Base Thomas Penrose wrote: I purchased the same Enco base also. I have a cheap dial inicator whichhasa range of 0-.250. I have had no trouble with the base holding theindicatorin the groove... Worked for me, Maybe cheap means weak spring. Miles Tiernan My gauge has 1" of travel and a spring that would lift the gauge and itsprevious wooden base right off the table. The Enco steel base still holdsit down pretty securely. Enco may have begun selling a new, heaviermodel. The one I got does not look exactly like the one in the catalogillustration.Something else that I've encountered in the "cheap" dial indicators. Theones made in China often have metric threads for the points. That meansthat the Starret 60 degree point, which has 44 tpi, will not fit. Beaware and check before you buy.John Zimny from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 13 05:54:25 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 05:54:54 -0500 Subject: Andy Royer 4.0.995.52 Rodmakers,Has any one talked to Andy Royer since his note about shippingcane? Has anyone received any cane? from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Mon Oct 13 06:32:251997 1997 11:32:19 UT 97 04:32:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod Wayne: I wasn't really looking for the taper, just responding to someone who saidthey had a "mystery rod" labeled "Princess" that was 7'0", 2/2, had a serialnumber, and had a cork reel seat. Sounded like a possible PHY, thoughthat'sprobably a long shot. However, if you have such a taper handy, I'm sure thelist would appreciate it. I have never seen a PHY Princess in person,althought there is one on the cover of Martin Keane's latest catalog. Thanks for the response. --Rich------------------------------ Rich -Having been away for a few weeks I have a question about your post - areyou looking for the taper for this rod? Originally there were only 28 madebyPaul - over the past few years Todd has made a few more - but it is stillthescarced of the Youngs Wayne ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ 22:49:31 -0700 01:49:30 -0400 #23425)with ESMTP id forRICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:49:29 - (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Oct 13 07:22:29 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id IAA07535 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Mystery "Princess" Rod Wayne,I had sent the message about a rod I was asked to refinish. The onlywords I could make out were Princess. It was a 7' and said HDH for theline size. Nicely flamed cane with what appeard to be blackened guidesand ferrules with a cork and ring reel seat. It also had a serialnumber both on tip and butt. I was wondering if anyone knew who madeit. Brian -----Original Message-----From: WayneCatt@aol.com [SMTP:WayneCatt@aol.com]Sent: Friday, October 10, 1997 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod Rich -Having been away for a few weeks I have a question about your post- areyou looking for the taper for this rod? Originally there were only 28made byPaul - over the past few years Todd has made a few more - but it isstill thescarced of the Youngs Wayne from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Oct 13 07:52:50 1997 Subject: nets Brian, Just curious if you received the info I sent you on nets? Regards, Steve from pehs_jxs@MAVCA.OHIO.GOV Mon Oct 13 07:53:42 1997 #6771) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: Re: Nets Jon, I have made a lot of wooden frame fishing nets using walnut, curly &birdseye maple, oak, cherry etc., I also tie the net bags as well. Iwould be glad to help in any way I can, let me know. John from flyfisher@rhco.com Mon Oct 13 08:08:20 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id JAA05909 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: nets Yes, I did. Thanks. You should put that on the Rodmakers site. Verydetailed and good information. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Steve Trauthwein [SMTP:saltwein@swbell.net]Sent: Monday, October 13, 1997 10:53 AM Subject: nets Brian, Just curious if you received the info I sent you on nets? Regards, Steve from chapc@oslo.pgs.com Mon Oct 13 09:09:22 1997 PAA17221 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:12:49+0100 (MET) Domain=oslo.pgs.com, Unlimited license Subject: Re[2]: Nets John, Re home tied nets. I hope you kill all your fish? Knotted nets, even used carefully and briefly can cause considerable, slime/scale/fin & skin damage and, if you intend to release the fish, modern, "knotless" meshes are better. I admit they don't look as good, but it depends what you want to do. Me, I tend to go with the line taken by Hugh Falkus that to catch and release fish is demeaning and reduces them to the level of playthings. I eat my fish, usually, or release in water with out netting. I do realise the legal situation is different in some regions of the States. Simon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: NetsAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLO Jon, I have made a lot of wooden frame fishing nets using walnut, curly & birdseye maple, oak, cherry etc., I also tie the net bags as well. I would be glad to help in any way I can, let me know. John from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Oct 13 09:11:15 1997 Subject: A challenge [2] Guys, A lot of questions to the list are from folks that are trying to build arod as cheaply as possible [ are they fooling themselves or what]. At anyrate - what say we attempt to get the information together so Jerry canpost it of the cheapest way to build a rod. I would guess this wouldinclude tool requirement, parts, glues etc.The parameters may be expressed as a student [ like Jon] who has limitedresources/space and no shop tools beyond screwdrivers/hammers etc. Notablesaws allowed. There has been limited interest so far in the idea so I'll wait on othersto comment. What I envisioned is how few tools it might take to make arod. gages for form setting. Is a depth gage really necessary? Not hardly. Youcan make a series of finished splines about 2" long of various sizes thatcould be used to preset the form to a size larger than the finished size ofthe cane. You then "back down" by planning and setting the forms till youarrive @ the finished size. This is the process I use now. I've found thatit's a lot more accurate than setting the forms to final dimension rightoff the start. If you use the "trial" splines - you can save the cost of adepth gage. Similarly on planes - you can:- Own a Stanley 9 1/2- Own a Stanley 60 1/2- Own a fancy scraper- Install Hock blades on the two Stanleys- Own a qulaity sanding block or you can - Own a Record 9 1/2 - Own a bearing scaper- Own a quality sanding blockThe Record plane has a lot better steel than the Stanley [ I know - gotStanley, Record & Hock blades] and does not require replacement with aHockblade. The bearing scraper & sanding block substitute for a fancy scaper [got one of them too]. The point is that all those tools are great and each will take a littletime off the effort of building a cane rod but are they really necessary.Nope. So how few tools does it take? Don [ its melting - the snow that is ] Andersen from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Oct 13 09:27:14 1997 Subject: Perfection Tiptops I have a few (12 - 24) new small-ring Perfection tiptops in both chromeand black that I have no use for - all are for tips smaller than 4 mm.If anyone has a use and wants to swap for ???, please email me off list. Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Oct 13 09:39:10 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge Don,A splendid idea, but I think that we need to get some prioritiesright. Three things a rod builder needs are a GOOD plane, a GOODplaning form and a micrometer. All else is dross and dressing. If youcan afford a lathe or drill press or depth guage etc. by all means getthem, but they are adjuncts not necessities. . My first rod was builtwith a 2 inch exacto plane, two 3/4 in wooden sticks about three feetlong with a tapered groove routed in at various depths. and a cheapmike. I built my wrapping machine of wood on the design in theEncyclopedia of Fshing, my oven was (and still is) a two inch iron pipeand a blowtorch. It was a good rod, although perhaps cosmetically itleft something to be desired. I have never felt the need for a depthguage, fancy thermostatically controlled ovens etc. What I am saying isthat a beginner should expect to buy the best basic tools he can find(plane, form, mike) all else can be fabricated scrounged and designed all equipment I can afford. and the more the merrier, but I am not oneto be coerced into doing things in a copycat fashion. I have followedthe threads detailing the agony of a lot of the newcomers trying to fitthemselves into a mold. It just is not necessary. Sorry to sound off like this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone on thelist, but since I learned the hard way (before Garrison) and learned tomake my own tools, find my own supplies and work out my own problems Ihave found that I have learned (perhaps more slowly) but certainly wellthe craft of working with bamboo. Ralph Moon from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Oct 13 11:28:26 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:28:21 EDT Subject: Re: Re[2]: Nets I was hoping for sources for the modern netting. I release almost all of the fish I catch in the water, without a net, but in the cases when I want to keep a fish I would like a nice net. John, Re home tied nets. I hope you kill all your fish? Knotted nets, even used carefully and briefly can cause considerable, slime/scale/fin & skin damage and, if you intend to release the fish, modern, "knotless" meshes are better. I admit they don't look as good, but it depends what you want to do. Me, I tend to go with the line taken by Hugh Falkus that to catch and release fish is demeaning and reduces them to the level of playthings. I eat my fish, usually, or release in water with out netting. I do realise the legal situation is different in some regions of the States. Simon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: NetsAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MIMEOSLODate: 13.10.97 09:03 Jon, I have made a lot of wooden frame fishing nets using walnut, curly & birdseye maple, oak, cherry etc., I also tie the net bags as well. I would be glad to help in any way I can, let me know. John Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 13 11:51:27 1997 Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:51:13 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: A challenge Ralph, well said to you and to Don.The main thing is to get off your wallet (!) and give it a go. The first rod wont be the last and things just kind of build from there.The rod I fish with most is my first rod. It's not much to look at and I hate being seen with it but it fishes well enough and it's rough country I fish in so it's just right.Though I do like my fancy scraper and Hock iron I must admit. I'd also admit they are NOT minimum requirements.Make the planing form from wood, follow Dons suggestion on setting the forms OR just move the spline back and forth in a fixed form, get a mic, get a block plane and wrap the splines by hand.I don't know what to suggest about the dipping tank. My first rod was brushed and I just sprang for the tank next time round to avoid doing that again.The rods get better by experience, not gadgets. The gadgets just make it easier (sometimes). Tony On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Ralph W Moon wrote: Don,A splendid idea, but I think that we need to get some prioritiesright. Three things a rod builder needs are a GOOD plane, a GOODplaning form and a micrometer. All else is dross and dressing. If youcan afford a lathe or drill press or depth guage etc. by all means getthem, but they are adjuncts not necessities. . My first rod was builtwith a 2 inch exacto plane, two 3/4 in wooden sticks about three feetlong with a tapered groove routed in at various depths. and a cheapmike. I built my wrapping machine of wood on the design in theEncyclopedia of Fshing, my oven was (and still is) a two inch iron pipeand a blowtorch. It was a good rod, although perhaps cosmetically itleft something to be desired. I have never felt the need for a depthguage, fancy thermostatically controlled ovens etc. What I am saying isthat a beginner should expect to buy the best basic tools he can find(plane, form, mike) all else can be fabricated scrounged and designed all equipment I can afford. and the more the merrier, but I am not oneto be coerced into doing things in a copycat fashion. I have followedthe threads detailing the agony of a lot of the newcomers trying to fitthemselves into a mold. It just is not necessary. Sorry to sound off like this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone on thelist, but since I learned the hard way (before Garrison) and learned tomake my own tools, find my own supplies and work out my own problemsIhave found that I have learned (perhaps more slowly) but certainly wellthe craft of working with bamboo. Ralph Moon /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from pehs_jxs@MAVCA.OHIO.GOV Mon Oct 13 13:12:01 1997 #6771) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: Re: Nets chapc@oslo.pgs.com wrote: John, Re home tied nets. I hope you kill all your fish? Knotted nets, evenused carefully and briefly can cause considerable, slime/scale/fin &skin damage and, if you intend to release the fish, modern, "knotless"meshes are better. I admit they don't look as good, but it depends what you want to do.Me, I tend to go with the line taken by Hugh Falkus that to catch andrelease fish is demeaning and reduces them to the level of playthings.I eat my fish, usually, or release in water with out netting. I dorealise the legal situation is different in some regions of theStates. Simon Simon, To imply that fish caught and released from hand tied/knotted nets killsthe fish is foolish to say the least. I would need documentedscientifically collected and controlled data to believe you. To implythat a knotted net has the potential to cause more damage than a meshnet I will agree with to a point. I think it largely depends in theperson doing the netting. To imply that a fishes slime coating isdamaged by any net I will agree with. And of course I agree with thefact that a fishes slime coating will be damaged by any handling. Butwhether slime coating damage however slight will kill the fish or not Idon't know. If it will then anyone who touches a fish in any way iskilling fish. When you fight a fish only to release it do you in fact know that itsslime coating or scales have not been damaged by running into the bottomor submerges logs? If you do not use a net to remove a hook and leavethe fish in the water, I would assume that you fight the fish toexhaustion. I would think that this too would have a detrimental effecton fish mortally.I do, in your line of thinking use fish as playthings and will continueto do so, to in my way of thinking preserve the resource. Thanks for your thoughts,John from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Oct 13 13:24:03 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge A lot of the stuff I post is centered around cheaperalternatives to the usual equipment. My way of heat treating involves buying a $39.95paint stripping heat gun and a $14.95 propanetorch. The stuff I have been posting about PVC dip tubesand using a rod turning motor to pull the rod sectioninvolves $10.00 in parts and something that can bemade from an old rotisserie motor. Or you can gothe valve at the bottom of the dip tube route andskip the pulling the section entirely. Cabinet scrapers go for about $6.00. Wrap your glued sections by hand. A lathe is not necessary. The most expensive item will be the planing form.If you can make your own out of wood or somethingcheaper than steel, then you are well on your way. I think you can make your first rod for less than $200in tools, but you still have to buy your cane, ferrule,reel seat, guides, and at least cork rings for a handle. Darryl Hayashida Darryl Hayashida from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 13 13:44:01 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge [2] Don - The guy who should really be responding to this is Bill Fink, who isoffline at the moment. ( Bird hunting in Montana ) If you walked into hisbasement, you would scarcely know that you were in a rodmakers house.Theonly giveaway would be the few culms of cane and the homemade forms intherafters. He splits with a hunting knife, planes with an old "brand X" fromSears, binds with two bobbins, and heat treats nodeless strips with hiskitchen oven. Before he went nodeless, he used the torch and tube method.Hefits ferrules and shapes grips by hand. His only nods to the modern worldarethe epoxy glue and the computer taper designs.Anyone who thinks you can't build a good rod with simple tools wasobviouslynot at Roscoe last month to see his 7 1/2 foot 5 wgt. 5 strip cast a wholeflyline. from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Oct 13 16:11:02 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge/valve I really appreciate the post that show an entry level means of makingyour first attempt at a rod. I like to see that I can do somethingbefore I sink a bunch of money in it. Or at least see if I want tocontinue at it. I appreciate all of the more technical post too. I am just not up tothat speed yet. Darryl, about the valve at the bottom of the dip tank is there more in the archives on this or is it as simple as it seems to be. Regards, Steve from shane.m.hubbs@vanderbilt.edu Mon Oct 13 18:50:35 1997 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:45:47 CDT Subject: Re: A challenge Rod makers, I am a beginner split cane craftsman and I have been just observing theconversations over the past few week. This challenge of creating a list ofquality, less expensive tools is a useful idea, especially for someone justbeginning. I have not yet started on my first rod, but I would like tospend as little as possible when I just start out. I even know if I willlike it or not. In the future the investment of large sums of capital isinevitable. I would just like to some money to go on at least one fishingtrip after I craft my rod. I would be very grateful if anyone can help mewith a full list of essentials. Thanks Shane M. HubbsRalph W Moon wrote: Don,A splendid idea, but I think that we need to get some prioritiesright. Three things a rod builder needs are a GOOD plane, a GOODplaning form and a micrometer. All else is dross and dressing. If youcan afford a lathe or drill press or depth guage etc. by all means getthem, but they are adjuncts not necessities. . My first rod was builtwith a 2 inch exacto plane, two 3/4 in wooden sticks about three feetlong with a tapered groove routed in at various depths. and a cheapmike. I built my wrapping machine of wood on the design in theEncyclopedia of Fshing, my oven was (and still is) a two inch iron pipeand a blowtorch. It was a good rod, although perhaps cosmetically itleft something to be desired. I have never felt the need for a depthguage, fancy thermostatically controlled ovens etc. What I am saying isthat a beginner should expect to buy the best basic tools he can find(plane, form, mike) all else can be fabricated scrounged and designed all equipment I can afford. and the more the merrier, but I am not oneto be coerced into doing things in a copycat fashion. I have followedthe threads detailing the agony of a lot of the newcomers trying to fitthemselves into a mold. It just is not necessary. Sorry to sound off like this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone on thelist, but since I learned the hard way (before Garrison) and learned tomake my own tools, find my own supplies and work out my own problemsIhave found that I have learned (perhaps more slowly) but certainly wellthe craft of working with bamboo. Ralph Moon from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Mon Oct 13 20:16:28 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Mon, 13 Oct 97 21:13:03 EDT Subject: Binding thread Special thanks to whoever suggested Atlantic Thread and supply forbinding thread! The only other source I had found cost $50 for 1000yds.Atlantic sells 4800 yrd spools for less than $18.00! They also have 24/4in6000 yd spools! That's something like three and a half miles of the stuff! Thanks again. --Mark from cphisey@neca.com Mon Oct 13 21:52:32 1997 Subject: Re: Binding thread At 08:16 PM 10/13/97 -0500, you wrote:Special thanks to whoever suggested Atlantic Thread and supply forbinding thread! The only other source I had found cost $50 for 1000yds.Atlantic sells 4800 yrd spools for less than $18.00! They also have 24/4in6000 yd spools! That's something like three and a half miles of the stuff! Thanks again. --Mark Mark, I'm glad that worked out for you, it's a great company to deal with.Charlie from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Tue Oct 14 08:39:20 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:39:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Nets Jon Lintvet wrote: My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was lookingat it the other day and thought I would like to make one. Doesanyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy,but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 Netcraft Co. (419) 472-9826 can set you up with what you need. Theywill have everthing including stuff to tie the nets with. The tools areinexpensive and it is not that hard... Frames are available, all I'vedone is make a net for a garage sale frame... from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Oct 14 10:11:41 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge/valve In a message dated 97-10-14 01:02:29 EDT, you write: Darryl, about the valve at the bottom of the dip tank is there more in the archives on this or is it as simple as it seems to be. September 1995 was the original post, but all it is is a pvc pipewith a valve mounted on an end cap. The valve was for a watersupply to an ice maker in a refrigerator. You can get any rateyou want by adjusting the valve drip rate. Then you can leaveyour section in the tube to harden so no dust will get on it.This method works best for varnishing a section with no guideson it. If you have guides already mounted you should pausejust as the guides clear the varnish to let the excess drain offthe guide, and with this method you can't see when the guidesclear the varnish. Darryl Hayashida from d-deloach1@ti.com Tue Oct 14 14:14:33 1997 with ESMTP id OAA29486 for ; Tue, 14 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id IQTNAJCM; Tue,14 Oct 1997 14:13:59 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) GUys:How do pronounce it, MON-tuh-gyew or mon-TAYG? Thanks. from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Oct 14 15:08:34 1997 Subject: Re: Nets RO>Netcraft Co. (419) 472-9826 can set you up with what you need. TheyRO>will have everthing including stuff to tie the nets with. The tools areRO>inexpensive and it is not that hard... Frames are available, all I'veRO>done is make a net for a garage sale frame... Jon, Netcraft used to have a complete - not a kit, $8.00 wood fish net thatis a very good value. Varnish finish sucks, but okay for a $8.00 net. Don from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Tue Oct 14 15:11:21 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Tue, 14 Oct 97 16:09:05 EDT Subject: Re: Montague My French pronunciation is not all that great, but my English ispretty good: Most people I've heard pronounce it MON-tuh-GYEW. It is, ofcourse, as your second example notes, French, but I don't think the(original)French would be very much different (although I'm pretty surenative French speakers would disagree with that.) bon jour, --Mark At 02:13 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:GUys:How do pronounce it, MON- tuh-gyew or mon-TAYG? Thanks. from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Tue Oct 14 17:37:07 1997 mailfep2-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Andy Royer phone number? type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Does anyone have a phone number or e-mail addressfor Andy Royer? Thanks a bunch Joe LovertiLoverti Spit Cane Rods from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue Oct 14 18:10:08 1997 Subject: A challenge [3] Tony, Ralph, Darryl, Tom, et al, Each of us has some experience, some more extensive than others, ofbuilding rods using the minimum in materials/tools. My thanks for relatingsome of those experiences. What I'm wondering is how Jerry could putthoseexperiences into some kind of format that others could use when startingout. The thought occurs that would could "round table" each of the itemsthat "just" have to be used and justify to ourselves and therefore othersof its requirement to rodbuilding. We could start on one item and branchout from there. While some of the items will require more informationothers, I think it just might be manageable. It concerns me that we havediffering opinions of what is required and therefore personalpreferences/personalities may get in the way of selecting thebest/lowestcost/easily obtainable items. How that would be resolved I guess is up tothe participants. As we are all far away from each other, slugging it outin the parking lot is likely a none starter. Any thoughts? Don from penr0295@uidaho.edu Tue Oct 14 18:45:24 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id QAA21122 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: A challenge [3] make Bamboo Fly Rods" details how to go about the process using prettysimple tools--hunting knife for splitting, a single plane without anadjustable throat, an oil stone for blade sharpening, hunting knife forsplitting the cane, propane torch for heat treating using an iron pipe foran oven. He also details how to make final forms out of wood. This wouldrequire a table saw to cut the grooves, but there are instructions at theRodmaker's homepage that tell how to scrape out the 60 degree groovewitha machinist's thread cutting bit, so a table saw would not even berequired. Anyway, if anyone is determined to take the low cost approach,the Barnes book might be the one to start with. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from santiago@ricochet.net Tue Oct 14 20:02:43 1997 UAA25456 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:04:24 Subject: Re: Andy Royer phone number? Joe Loverti wrote: Does anyone have a phone number or e-mail addressfor Andy Royer? Thanks a bunch Joe LovertiLoverti Spit Cane Rods here is his email: bamboomail@bamboohw.com he will be back in seattle, oct 17th from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Oct 14 21:01:10 1997 WAA29494 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:00:48 - Subject: 1998 Grand Gathering, Sat., May 23 and Sun., May 24, 1998 MARK THESE DATES IN YOUR CALENDAR. The Northeastern Bamboo RodBuilders areplanning the second "Grand" gathering on Sat. May 23 and Sun. May 24, 1998( Memorial Day long weekend). If you picked up one of the early notices atthe Roscoe Gathering, please ignore the dates shown on it. We have backedup the dates one week to take advantage of the long weekend. The "Grand" Gathering will be held at the same location as last year, theBelwood Lake Conservation Area, on the Grand River, near Fergus, Ontario. Feedback from last year's Gathering has been highly positive and weexpectthe same high level of information exchange this year. Belwood Lake and Fergus are approximately 2 hours from Buffalo, or 2 and1/2 from Detroit. The Grand River has the best tailwater Brown troutfishing in this part of North America, and many of last year's attendeestook advantage of this. Look for future notices as we develop the program. If you think you mightbe coming , please let us know. For more information, contact Ted Knottat166 Oneida Blvd., Ancaster, Ontario, L9G 3C9, telephone 905-304-0388, ore-mail to teekay35@interlynx.net from Canerods@aol.com Tue Oct 14 21:17:08 1997 Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod In a message dated 97-10-13 08:24:00 EDT, you write: Brian, Upon 2nd thought's: If it wasn't for the flamed cane - I'd say it was a Heddon #51 "Princess"rod, but I don't think Heddon ever made a flamed cane rod. They werefamous the S/N and flaming. Does it have a swelled butt? A Heddon #51 won't. Don BurnsCanerods@aol.com or Flyfisher@cmix.com from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Oct 14 22:06:53 1997 Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:06:26 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: A challenge [3] Sure, sounds great.Where do we start? Tony On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Don Andersen wrote: Tony, Ralph, Darryl, Tom, et al, Each of us has some experience, some more extensive than others, ofbuilding rods using the minimum in materials/tools. My thanks forrelatingsome of those experiences. What I'm wondering is how Jerry could putthoseexperiences into some kind of format that others could use whenstartingout. The thought occurs that would could "round table" each of the itemsthat "just" have to be used and justify to ourselves and therefore othersof its requirement to rodbuilding. We could start on one item and branchout from there. While some of the items will require more informationothers, I think it just might be manageable. It concerns me that we havediffering opinions of what is required and therefore personalpreferences/personalities may get in the way of selecting thebest/lowestcost/easily obtainable items. How that would be resolved I guess is uptothe participants. As we are all far away from each other, slugging it outin the parking lot is likely a none starter. Any thoughts? Don /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Oct 14 22:16:22 1997 XAA00858 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:16:00 - Subject: Cole-Parmer Temperature Gauge and Probe A few weeks ago someone posted a notice about the Cole- Parmerelectronictemperature gauge which seemed useful in getting consistent temperaturereadings from my oven. I ordered one by phone, got it a few days later,and have been experimenting a little bit with it since. The instrument isquite accurate. I tested it on body temperature, boiling water and againstmy furnace thermostat with readings within 3 degrees, which is the rangespecified in the pamphlet that came with it. The probe is 5/32" diameter, so I drilled 4 holes of 11/64" in the top ofmy oven, one at each end, and 2 equally spaced in between to get a range oftemperatures over the oven length. My oven is made from double walledchimny vent, 5 feet long. with a mica strip heater element and universaloven control, with a tray for the bamboo sections mounted about 2" fromthetop. The probe is placed through the holes to rest on the tray. At firstI used the probe to calibrate the oven control switch so that I could getaccurate, repeatable, temperatures. I found that readings at each end ofthe oven were about 25 degrees cooler than the middle readings at all ofthe settings that I used. Once I knew what temperatures I was working with, I cooked a few stripsatvarious temperatures for various lengths of time. For example, 1 hour at350 degrees just about turned the test strip into charcoal, which makesmewonder about some of the heat treating suggestions in recent posts. Atanyrate, I now know what the actual temperature I'm working with, canrepeatit with subsequent rods, and can control my heat treating. from mweber@icscorp.com Wed Oct 15 05:43:08 1997 0400 Subject: Re: Andy Royer phone number? Andy Royer can be reached at: Bamboo HardwoodsAndy RoyerP.O. Box 2422Vashon, WA 98070206-463- 3771andry@bamboohw.com Last I spoke with Andy he had about 100 bales of 10 culms per left in hisinventory.Good Luck. Mike At 06:36 PM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote:Does anyone have a phone number or e-mail addressfor Andy Royer? Thanks a bunch Joe LovertiLoverti Spit Cane Rods from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 15 07:16:33 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge [3] In a message dated 10/15/97 11:59:43 AM, you wrote: Don - Why not just list out the major options for each operation, and letthebeginner decide for himself. Everybody comes to this hobby/business withadifferent set of prior experiences and talents. What looks easy to onepersonmay appear formidable to someone else, just as it does to those of us whohave been around for a while. from HARRY@wacbhs.tstc.edu Wed Oct 15 07:51:24 1997 15 Oct 97 07:51:15 CST6CDT CST6CDT Subject: curious] Thomas Penrose's recommendation about George W. Barnes book "HOW TO MAKE BAMBOO FLY RODS" is a good one. I have seen the book once but have not been able to find a copy. Told it is out of print - does anyone know where I could find one? After reading about the silk fly lines I became curious as to how they were made - what type of equipment etc. Have not been able to find information concerning the matter - would appreciate any help to satisfy this curiousity. Subject: Re: A challenge [3] make Bamboo Fly Rods" details how to go about the process using prettysimple tools--hunting knife for splitting, a single plane without anadjustable throat, an oil stone for blade sharpening, hunting knife forsplitting the cane, propane torch for heat treating using an iron pipe foran oven. He also details how to make final forms out of wood. This wouldrequire a table saw to cut the grooves, but there are instructions at theRodmaker's homepage that tell how to scrape out the 60 degree groovewitha machinist's thread cutting bit, so a table saw would not even berequired. Anyway, if anyone is determined to take the low cost approach,the Barnes book might be the one to start with. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from 3I2I7N3@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Wed Oct 15 08:09:46 1997 SMTP V2R4)with BSMTP id 5665; Wed, 15 Oct 97 09:07:41 EDT CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 2298; Wed, 15Oct 1997 09:07:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Cole-Parmer Temperature Gauge and Probe Thanks for this interesting post. I have real questions about theconsistencyand accuracy of the temp in my oven, and this sounds like a good way tocheck just those variables. How much do they cost, and can they be wried right intothe existing circuit of the oven, to make it a permanent fixture?--Mark Freed from mweber@icscorp.com Wed Oct 15 09:11:53 1997 0400 Subject: Binder? Looking for some help from the wise and experienced! Where can I find asource to buy a Garrison Style Binder? I've gone through the description inWayne's book on how to make your own, but given my time constraints as ahobbist, I'd prefer to buy one. Any help would be appreciated. Mike Weber from rmoon@dns.ida.net Wed Oct 15 10:02:24 1997 0600 Subject: Re: A challenge [3] Don Andersen wrote: Tony, Ralph, Darryl, Tom, et al, Each of us has some experience, some more extensive than others, ofbuilding rods using the minimum in materials/tools. My thanks forrelatingsome of those experiences. What I'm wondering is how Jerry could putthoseexperiences into some kind of format that others could use whenstartingout. The thought occurs that would could "round table" each of theitemsthat "just" have to be used and justify to ourselves and thereforeothersof its requirement to rodbuilding. We could start on one item andbranchout from there. While some of the items will require more informationothers, I think it just might be manageable. It concerns me that wehavediffering opinions of what is required and therefore personalpreferences/personalities may get in the way of selecting thebest/lowestcost/easily obtainable items. How that would be resolved I guess is uptothe participants. As we are all far away from each other, slugging itoutin the parking lot is likely a none starter. Any thoughts? Don Don Admittedly it is going to be a problem, but I would suggest thatwe might perhaps start with a specific phase of building, and ask thosewho are experienced to make a short contribution re: equipment, methodsetc. We should also perhaps make one binding ground rule that this isnot to be a debating forum on the best or easiest way. It will simplybe an accounting of experience right or wrong, easy or difficult, goodor bad. I guess that once we have some responses, that someone should try topull it together and make a consensus evaluation. Ralph from dryfly@erols.com Wed Oct 15 10:06:45 1997 0400 Subject: Re: Binder? Michael D. Weber wrote: Looking for some help from the wise and experienced! Where can I find asource to buy a Garrison Style Binder? I've gone through the descriptioninWayne's book on how to make your own, but given my time constraints asahobbist, I'd prefer to buy one. Any help would be appreciated. Mike Weber Mike I asked the same question a couple weeks ago with very little response. Therefore, yesterday I mailed my order for a Garrison style binder made made of solid brass. I have been told by rodmakers, Wayne Cattanaughand George Maurer that if the wallet can afford it, that the Olsen madeGarrison binder is an excellent binder. Bill can be reached at804-973-0896. When I talked with Bill a week ago he said delivery wouldtake two to three weeks since he doesn't maintain an inventory ofbinders. Good Luck Bob from mweber@icscorp.com Wed Oct 15 10:50:44 1997 0400 Subject: Re: Binder? Thanks Bob! Sounds a little pricey, but if no one else has a suggestion,I'll give Mr. Olsen my business. Thanks for the help.Mike At 11:08 AM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote:Michael D. Weber wrote: Looking for some help from the wise and experienced! Where can I findasource to buy a Garrison Style Binder? I've gone through the descriptioninWayne's book on how to make your own, but given my time constraintsas ahobbist, I'd prefer to buy one. Any help would be appreciated. Mike Weber Mike I asked the same question a couple weeks ago with very little response. Therefore, yesterday I mailed my order for a Garrison style binder made made of solid brass. I have been told by rodmakers, Wayne Cattanaughand George Maurer that if the wallet can afford it, that the Olsen madeGarrison binder is an excellent binder. Bill can be reached at804-973-0896. When I talked with Bill a week ago he said deliverywouldtake two to three weeks since he doesn't maintain an inventory ofbinders. Good Luck Bob from flyfisher@rhco.com Wed Oct 15 10:56:12 1997 (8.8.5/InetRelay-1.10) with ESMTP id LAA00687 for (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: Mystery "Princess" Rod It actually may be just a dark brown cane. There is a small, barelynoticeable swell about 5 to 6 inches above the grip. When I say barelynoticeable, it really is! Brian -----Original Message-----From: Canerods@aol.com [SMTP:Canerods@aol.com]Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Mystery "Princess" Rod In a message dated 97-10-13 08:24:00 EDT, you write: Date: 97-10-13 08:24:00 EDTFrom: flyfisher@rhco.com (Thoman, Brian)Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wayne,I had sent the message about a rod I was asked to refinish. The onlywords I could make out were Princess. It was a 7' and said HDH fortheline size. Nicely flamed cane with what appeard to be blackenedguidesand ferrules with a cork and ring reel seat. It also had a serialnumber both on tip and butt. I was wondering if anyone knew who madeit. Brian Brian, Upon 2nd thought's: If it wasn't for the flamed cane - I'd say it was a Heddon #51"Princess"rod, but I don't think Heddon ever made a flamed cane rod. They werefamous except forthe S/N and flaming. Does it have a swelled butt? A Heddon #51 won't. Don BurnsCanerods@aol.com or Flyfisher@cmix.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed Oct 15 11:45:16 1997 Subject: Re: Re: lathes You don't have to have 45" to do your handle. You only need enough room tohold your work area on the rod. What John Zimmy makes a lot of sense (asusual) Hank. from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 15 12:19:59 1997 Subject: RE: Mystery "Princess" Rod RO>It actually may be just a dark brown cane. There is a small, barelyRO>noticeable swell about 5 to 6 inches above the grip. When I say barelyRO>noticeable, it really is! RO>Brian Brian, The #51 Heddon Princess was made from blanks intended to be mid and tipsections for their other longer rods. So there's no swelled butts onthem. Shoud have a cigar grip and cork C&R seat (except for the 1938 version -has walnut). Above the grip should be a wrapped over winding check, thenopen wrapped hookkeeper. Then a "#51" written on the shaft. Above thisshould be "Heddon" written across several flats of the cane. Wraps aresilver (light gray) tipped black. Might look to be gold/black due tovarnish age. Else???? Don B.flyfisher@cmix.com or Canerods@aol.com from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 15 14:36:59 1997 ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Cortland 444Ltd. I sent the enclosed message to Dick Spurr a week or so ago but have notreceived an answer to date. Thought I'd run it by the list to see yourreaction. Can any one give me a clue as to what this might be??? Does itseem to be a Cortland??? Thanks for your help.... FRED -- Dick: I have picked up what has been represented as a Cortland 444 Ltd., bagand tube. It may have been refinished -- it does have a rather crudecoat of varnish/epoxy on the wraps and has a snake guide in place of thestripping guide. It's 7.5', 2 piece, 2 tips -- all original length. Nodecal but "71/2' 4 ozs. Line #7" is written, in black, on the buttsection between the hook- keeper and three 1/16" signature wraps thatarealso about 1/16" apart. Cork is good. No dings and only very minorsets in both tips. Very nice darkly flamed. Maroon wraps. Brassferrules appear to have been bronzed and are stamped 43C (one tipferrule stamped 42C). Ferrules are tight. Grip check and real seat arebrass colored -- seat has a maroon Bakelite insert. Tip Tops may alsohave been replaced as they are a bright shinny aluminum looking color. Do you think it is authentic and -- if so -- what do you think the valuemay be? Thanks for your help....... FRED ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FRED BOHLS, CFPBohls Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17011-9698Office: (717) 732- 2448Fax: (717) 732-2414e-mail: fcfp@ix.netcom.com from bjcoch@arkansas.net Wed Oct 15 16:38:10 1997 mail.anc.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id VAA07574 for; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:38:28 GMT Subject: Re: Nets Jon Lintvet wrote: My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was lookingat it the other day and thought I would like to make one. Doesanyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy,but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781I build nets using Walnut, Ash, Holly, Rosewood, ect. The real trick isto build a bending form and use as many clamps as will fit around theform when doing the glue up. The best nets are available from ORVIS, andBailey's The actual maker of the nets only sells in mass quantities andI doubt you plan to build 10,000 net frames. Bryant C. Feel free toe-mail me at bjcoch@arkansas.net if you need further information. from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Oct 15 17:07:30 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:07:25 EDT Subject: Line Art Does anyone know of fly fishing line are. Perhaps related to bamboo and what not. I was putting a brochure together for a shop downtown.Thanks in advanceJon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from GJFLYFSH@UWYO.EDU Wed Oct 15 17:12:51 1997 #19314)with ESMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:01:08 MDT #19314) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, Subject: Re: A challenge [3] Just to add my $.05 worth. I think a discussion of each of the necessarytoolsand possible alternitives would be helpful not only to the beginner but may spark an idea for someone who has built a few. from my humbleexperience along with the discussion info on sources would also be helpful.jerry from MiTiernan@aol.com Wed Oct 15 17:14:12 1997 Subject: Re: curious] I've been looking very hard for George Barnes book for the last year and ahalf. So far I've had no luck. If anybody has one they would like to sellplease E-Mail me at MiTiernan@AOL.com. There is a article entitled "AnApproach to Wooden Planing Forms" by George in the latest issue of ThePlaning Form. from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Wed Oct 15 17:54:51 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Wed, 15 Oct 97 18:52:42 EDT Subject: The battle of Good vs Evil In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inch control outof my building, I took a close look at the sole of my block plane and foundthat it was not completely flat, but domed in the middle, low along theedged. (I'm trying to break the .003 barrier on the three measurements ofa single spline at a single station.) I went out and bought a new and hopefully flatter piece of 1/4"plexiglass and some 150 and 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I have anadmittedly inexpensive machinest's square, but I think it is accurateenough, because all the edged give me the same information about theshape of the sole. I placed the plexiglass on a new formica kitchen counter afterchecking visually how flat the plexiglass was along two edges (prettyflat) and how flat the counter was (looks pretty good, but hard to tell). I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in the middle. I've tried hard pressure and light pressure. I've tried the 150 and the 320.I've tried different surfaces. I've even tried not using the plexiglass at all. I've sanded the thing for about two hours now. I even gave up and triedGarrison's suggestion to clamp it in a vice and carefully draw file it. (Hadbetter luck with the plexiglass and sandpaper. Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it would roundthe plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, and check itwith the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of a way I canflatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) Freed Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Oct 15 18:43:47 1997 Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:43:40 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Nets On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, bryant j coochran wrote: Jon Lintvet wrote: My father bought me a net from Orvis for my birthday. I was lookingat it the other day and thought I would like to make one. Doesanyone have any experience making nets. The frame looks pretty easy,but I don't know about materials and a source for nets. Any ideas?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781I build nets using Walnut, Ash, Holly, Rosewood, ect. The real trick isto build a bending form and use as many clamps as will fit around theform when doing the glue up. The best nets are available from ORVIS, andBailey's The actual maker of the nets only sells in mass quantities andI doubt you plan to build 10,000 net frames. Bryant C. Feel free toe-mail me at bjcoch@arkansas.net if you need further information. Try using surgical rubber or inner tube rubber cut in long strips rather than clamps to hild the laminates together while gluing. This works better than clamps as there are no hard spots where the clamps areplaced. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 15 18:57:03 1997 Subject: FS - 6" dial caliper I have (1) Fowler 6" dial caliper, a swiss-made unit made from some kindof tough plastic. It's served me well for many years. Reads inner, outerand depth to 0.001" and comes with a fitted plastic case too. A goodtool for a beginner facing a tight wallet. (See: A challenge) I'll include Priority Mail shipping in the USA too. First come - firstserved. Price is just under $10.01 (US$) Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com or canerods@aol.com PS - Does this meet the no pricing requirement? Sorry if I offendedsomeone. from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Oct 15 19:06:34 1997 Subject: Re: A challenge [3] Perhaps what is being 'read' as differing ideas is simply a matter ofwhatis available to each of us locally - Not everyone has a Grand RapidsCentralIron & Steel where they can romp and play. It is a definate influence on themake or buy decision. I was down there the other day taking pictures oftheplace - long story. Wayne from mduclos@mail.advertisnet.com Wed Oct 15 19:34:13 1997 with ESMTP id AAA151 for ;Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:44:23 -0500 Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil Mark, I'm not at all experienced at bamboo rod building, but have worked a bit atmaking things to fairly close dimensions. If you want to "fill me in" a biton your equipment and what you're trying, I'd be glad to share any ideas Imight have. If you want, you can contact me directly you can at my emailaddress. mike d ----------From: mark m. freed Subject: The battle of Good vs EvilDate: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 5:54 PM In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inch controlout of my building, I took a close look at the sole of my block plane andfound that it was not completely flat, but domed in the middle, low alongthe edged. (I'm trying to break the .003 barrier on the three measurementsof a single spline at a single station.) I went out and bought a new and hopefully flatter piece of 1/4"plexiglass and some 150 and 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I have anadmittedly inexpensive machinest's square, but I think it is accurateenough, because all the edged give me the same information about theshapeof the sole. I placed the plexiglass on a new formica kitchen counter afterchecking visually how flat the plexiglass was along two edges (prettyflat)and how flat the counter was (looks pretty good, but hard to tell). I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in themiddle. I've tried hard pressure and light pressure. I've tried the 150and the 320. I've tried different surfaces. I've even tried not using theplexiglass at all. I've sanded the thing for about two hours now. I evengave up and tried Garrison's suggestion to clamp it in a vice and carefullydraw file it. (Had better luck with the plexiglass and sandpaper. Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, andcheck it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of away I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) Freed Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from rkovalak@bright.net Wed Oct 15 19:42:32 1997 sparticus.bright.net (8.8.7/8.8.7/FNG) with SMTP id UAA11122 for Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil mark m. freed wrote: In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inch control outof my building, I took a close look at the sole of my block plane and foundthat it was not completely flat, but domed in the middle, low along theedged. (I'm trying to break the .003 barrier on the three measurements ofa single spline at a single station.) I went out and bought a new and hopefully flatter piece of 1/4"plexiglass and some 150 and 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I have anadmittedly inexpensive machinest's square, but I think it is accurateenough, because all the edged give me the same information about theshape of the sole. I placed the plexiglass on a new formica kitchen counter afterchecking visually how flat the plexiglass was along two edges (prettyflat) and how flat the counter was (looks pretty good, but hard to tell). I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in themiddle. I've tried hard pressure and light pressure. I've tried the 150 andthe 320. I've tried different surfaces. I've even tried not using theplexiglass at all. I've sanded the thing for about two hours now. I evengave up and tried Garrison's suggestion to clamp it in a vice and carefullydraw file it. (Had better luck with the plexiglass and sandpaper. Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, andcheck it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of away I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) FreedProf. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University In woodworking we use a piece of plate glass and sandpaper to flatten a plane sole. I would have my doubts about the consistency of flatness -- Ron KovalakEmail: rkovalak@bright.net from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Oct 15 20:36:42 1997 Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:35:53 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil Is your form flat? Tony On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Ron Kovalak wrote: mark m. freed wrote: In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inch controlout of my building, I took a close look at the sole of my block plane andfound that it was not completely flat, but domed in the middle, low alongthe edged. (I'm trying to break the .003 barrier on the three measurementsof a single spline at a single station.) I went out and bought a new and hopefully flatter piece of 1/4"plexiglass and some 150 and 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I have anadmittedly inexpensive machinest's square, but I think it is accurateenough, because all the edged give me the same information about theshape of the sole. I placed the plexiglass on a new formica kitchen counter afterchecking visually how flat the plexiglass was along two edges (prettyflat) and how flat the counter was (looks pretty good, but hard to tell). I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in themiddle. I've tried hard pressure and light pressure. I've tried the 150 andthe 320. I've tried different surfaces. I've even tried not using theplexiglass at all. I've sanded the thing for about two hours now. I evengave up and tried Garrison's suggestion to clamp it in a vice and carefullydraw file it. (Had better luck with the plexiglass and sandpaper. Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, andcheck it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of away I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) FreedProf. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University In woodworking we use a piece of plate glass and sandpaper to flatten a plane sole. I would have my doubts about the consistency of flatness -- Ron KovalakEmail: rkovalak@bright.net /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from plipton@sunvalley.net Wed Oct 15 20:58:17 1997 (208.14.167.30) Subject: The battle of Good vs Evil mark m. freed wrote: In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inch control outof my building, I took a close look at the sole of my block plane and foundthat it was not completely flat, but domed in the middle, low along theedged. (I'm trying to break the .003 barrier on the three measurements ofa single spline at a single station.) I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in themiddle. Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) Freed Mark: When you are trying to flatten the sole of your plane, do you have the bladeyou use clamped in the plane? That is clamped but raised so the cuttingedge does not get ground. Wayne Catanaugh explains this in detail in hisbook so pardon the paraphrase. If you flatten the sole and then put theblade in, the pressure will pull up the sole and dome it slightly. You might suspect your plexiglass sheet as well. I would prefer to use apiece of plate glass because it tends to be flatter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Philip LiptonPO Box 1003, Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726- 9559, 208-622-8585 Fax 208-726- 0191~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Oct 15 21:09:01 1997 VAA15942 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:08:58 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id VAA12003 for ; Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil Mark, Are you flattening the sole with the blade in place, at normaltension? (Retracted of course). If not, when you insert the bladeand tighten it, the plane will flex a little.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, mark m. freed wrote: Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, andcheck it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of away I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) Freed Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from dryfly@erols.com Wed Oct 15 21:58:04 1997 0400 [207.172.206.133] didn't use HELO protocol Subject: Plane Difference Could someone explain the advantages of using both the 60 1/2 and 9 1/2block planes in rodbuilding? Are there specific circumstances where the60 1/2 would have an advantage over the 9 1/2 and then again where the 91/2 would be better than the 60 1/2? Garrison apparently used both. ThanksBob from flyfisher@circle.net Wed Oct 15 23:31:55 1997 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07514 for ; Subject: Re: Plane Difference Robert S Williams wrote: Could someone explain the advantages of using both the 60 1/2 and 9 1/2block planes in rodbuilding? Are there specific circumstances where the60 1/2 would have an advantage over the 9 1/2 and then again where the91/2 would be better than the 60 1/2? Garrison apparently used both. The difference between them is the angle of the blade. The 60 1/2 has a12 degree angle and the 9 1/2 has a 21 degree angle. The lower angle ofthe 60 1/2 has a finer cut. ( At least that is what the catalogue says.) Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Oct 16 00:52:43 1997 Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:52:34 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Plane Difference On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Robert S Williams wrote: Could someone explain the advantages of using both the 60 1/2 and 9 1/2block planes in rodbuilding? Are there specific circumstances where the60 1/2 would have an advantage over the 9 1/2 and then again where the91/2 would be better than the 60 1/2? Garrison apparently used both. ThanksBob Garrison seemed to have a large plane collection and liked to use themall.The 60 1/2 has a lower angle of attack so prob gives a finer cut thanthe 9 1/2. Trouble with the 60 1/2 is that if you're too greedy with what you take on each cut or you don't adjust the throat properly you'll be more inclined to lift and tear the strip.I use the 60 1/2 because I've had one for years from other things apart from making rods, most use the 9 1/2. You need one but not both. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 16 02:11:28 1997 Subject: Re: Binder? 25' of string - a pulley - 1 1/2 pound something from KDLoup@aol.com Thu Oct 16 03:09:55 1997 Subject: Re: Binder? Mike,As you know, it takes many hours to make a rod. On my first rod, a twotip two piece, I was taking approximately one hour per strip for finalplaning. Not counting the other steps involved, I spent about 18 hours onthis aspect alone. However, it only took a few hours to build my Wayne C.style binder. The only power tool I used was a drill. If I had access tothe appropriate power tools, the binder probably could have been made inabout an hour. All the parts needed, including pre cut aluminum sheets andbrass pulleys, were purchased from Lowe's for about $45. I bought thethreadtensioning devices from a sewing machine repair shop for a few dollars. Ifyou are trying to save money, this is a good place to start. Good luck.Kurt Loup from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Oct 16 06:05:08 1997 Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil mark m. freed wrote: Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone, andcheck it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyone think of away I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark, If you have a small high spot in the middle of the plane you areprobably rocking it in the process of trying to flatten it. I wouldsuggest that you use glass instead of plexiglass and that you use aguide to follow with the edge of your plane to keep it at a uniformattitude while flattening. Regards, Steve from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Thu Oct 16 07:07:42 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Thu, 16 Oct 97 08:05:34 EDT Subject: flattening one's soul Thanks to Phillip Lipton, Frank Stetzer, Steve Trawthwein, and TonyYoung. I did have the blade in place and tuned to normal tension. Therecommendation about using plate glass instead of plexiglass seems to beagood one. Although I get the same shape (or no change in the shape) when Iuse either side. But perhaps the problem is not flatness alone, butflatness AND ridgity. The suggestion about using a guide of some sort also makes sense--totake out any slight rocking motion from side to side. Thanks again. I'll try these. --Mark Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 16 07:29:40 1997 Subject: Re: flattening one's soul Mark - If you have access to a woodworking shop, you can also use emeryclothor sandpaper on the table surface of a jointer. Move the plane in a figure 8pattern to eliminate uneven pressure. -- Tom from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Oct 16 08:31:28 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: The battle of Good vs Evil unless you glue the paper down and mount the blade in the frog, at thebeginning and end of each stroke you tilt the plane down in thedirection of push or pull and the paper lifts up. If you don't mount theblade in the frog when you sand when do put the blade in the frog itwill cause the sole to flex.. Try a piece of plate glass, its a lotflatter than a piece of plexiglass-the glass is poured and it flows outflat ----------From: mark m. freed[SMTP:3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu]Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 3:54 PM Subject: The battle of Good vs Evil In an attempt to get one more one-thousandth of an inchcontrol out of my building, I took a close look at the sole of myblock plane and found that it was not completely flat, but domed inthe middle, low along the edged. (I'm trying to break the .003barrier on the three measurements of a single spline at a singlestation.) I went out and bought a new and hopefully flatter piece of1/4" plexiglass and some 150 and 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I havean admittedly inexpensive machinest's square, but I think it isaccurate enough, because all the edged give me the same informationabout the shape of the sole. I placed the plexiglass on a new formica kitchen counter afterchecking visually how flat the plexiglass was along two edges (prettyflat) and how flat the counter was (looks pretty good, but hard totell). I CANNOT, however, get the sole flat! It remains domed in themiddle. I've tried hard pressure and light pressure. I've tried the150 and the 320. I've tried different surfaces. I've even tried notusing the plexiglass at all. I've sanded the thing for about twohours now. I even gave up and tried Garrison's suggestion to clamp itin a vice and carefully draw file it. (Had better luck with theplexiglass and sandpaper. Can anyone think why this method wouldn't work: why it wouldround the plane sole? (It works when I flatten my sharpening stone,and check it with the same square.) More importantly: can anyonethink of a way I can flatten this evil thing myself? Mark (I've got a satanic plane for sale) Freed Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu Oct 16 09:17:06 1997 Subject: Re: Plane Difference At 00:25 16/10/97 -0400, you wrote:Robert S Williams wrote: Could someone explain the advantages of using both the 60 1/2 and 91/2block planes in rodbuilding? Are there specific circumstances wherethe60 1/2 would have an advantage over the 9 1/2 and then again wherethe 91/2 would be better than the 60 1/2? Garrison apparently used both. Robert, I use the 60 1/2 for rough planning and the 9 1/2 for final planning - thecloser you get the angle of the plane to vertical the less chance you willhave of node lifting. The 9 1/2 is closer to vertical than the 60 1/2. The60 1/2 was designed for cross grain planning not along grain planning.If I had to use just one plane - it would be a 9 1/2 Record plane. Don from cparham@crocker.com Thu Oct 16 09:26:53 1997 Subject: Re: Montague mark m. freed wrote: My French pronunciation is not all that great, but my English ispretty good: Most people I've heard pronounce it MON-tuh-GYEW. It is, ofcourse, as your second example notes, French, but I don't think the(original)French would be very much different (although I'm pretty surenative French speakers would disagree with that.) bon jour, --Mark At 02:13 PM 10/14/97 -0700, you wrote:GUys:How do pronounce it, MON- tuh-gyew or mon-TAYG? Thanks. Us locals pronounce it as you spelled it: MON-tuh-gyew. Charles ParhamMontague City, MA (Where they were made) from harry37@epix.net Thu Oct 16 10:16:48 1997 LAA19102 Subject: Re: A challenge [3] Ralph W Moon wrote: Don Andersen wrote: Tony, Ralph, Darryl, Tom, et al, Each of us has some experience, some more extensive than others, ofbuilding rods using the minimum in materials/tools. My thanks forrelatingsome of those experiences. What I'm wondering is how Jerry could putthoseexperiences into some kind of format that others could use whenstartingout. The thought occurs that would could "round table" each of theitemsthat "just" have to be used and justify to ourselves and thereforeothersof its requirement to rodbuilding. We could start on one item andbranchout from there. While some of the items will require more informationothers, I think it just might be manageable. It concerns me that wehavediffering opinions of what is required and therefore personalpreferences/personalities may get in the way of selecting thebest/lowestcost/easily obtainable items. How that would be resolved I guess is uptothe participants. As we are all far away from each other, slugging itoutin the parking lot is likely a none starter. Any thoughts? Don Don Admittedly it is going to be a problem, but I would suggest thatwe might perhaps start with a specific phase of building, and ask thosewho are experienced to make a short contribution re: equipment, methodsetc. We should also perhaps make one binding ground rule that this isnot to be a debating forum on the best or easiest way. It will simplybe an accounting of experience right or wrong, easy or difficult, goodor bad. I guess that once we have some responses, that someone should try topull it together and make a consensus evaluation. Ralph I became interested in the list as a way to learn about cane building. I have not yet built a cane rod, but I have learned a ton about manyaspects which have been a great help to refurbish rods. I would seethis kind of exchange as a way to educate those like me who have littleexperience but a lot of interest and curiousity. Ralph's suggestiondescribes something that I would benefit from, and I look forward toreading the exchanges. Thanks for the education so far. Greg Kuntz from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Thu Oct 16 10:35:58 1997 Subject: Cole-Parmer Temperature Gauge and Probe RO>A few weeks ago someone posted a notice about the Cole- ParmerelectronicRO>temperature gauge which seemed useful in getting consistenttemperatureRO>readings from my oven. I ordered one by phone, got it a few days later,RO>and have been experimenting a little bit with it since. The instrumentisRO>quite accurate. I tested it on body temperature, boiling water andagainstRO>my furnace thermostat with readings within 3 degrees, which is therangeRO>specified in the pamphlet that came with it. RO>The probe is 5/32" diameter, so I drilled 4 holes of 11/64" in the topofRO>my oven, one at each end, and 2 equally spaced in between to get arange ofRO>temperatures over the oven length. My oven is made from doublewalledRO>chimny vent, 5 feet long. with a mica strip heater element anduniversalRO>oven control, with a tray for the bamboo sections mounted about 2" from theRO>top. The probe is placed through the holes to rest on the tray. At firstRO>I used the probe to calibrate the oven control switch so that I couldgetRO>accurate, repeatable, temperatures. I found that readings at each endofRO>the oven were about 25 degrees cooler than the middle readings at allofRO>the settings that I used. RO>Once I knew what temperatures I was working with, I cooked a fewstrips atRO>various temperatures for various lengths of time. For example, 1 houratRO>350 degrees just about turned the test strip into charcoal, whichmakes meRO>wonder about some of the heat treating suggestions in recent posts. At anyRO>rate, I now know what the actual temperature I'm working with, canrepeatRO>it with subsequent rods, and can control my heat treating. I have access to Cole-Palmer literature and would be interested inknowing the model number of the temperature instrument being used. Whatis the sensor? Is it a thermocouple or and RTD (Resistive TemperatureDevice)? If it is a thermocouple there is a way to easily obtain anaverage temperature reading for your oven. To do this obtain fiberglass insulated thermocouple wire of the typeused by the instrument and cut pieces of this for as many points as youwhich to average (4-6). Strip 3/8" insulation from one end and 3/4" from the other end. On the 3/8" end twist the two wires of the pairtogether and clip off the excess. Make sure that there is a little loopthere so that the individual wires come together at a nice clean angleas this is the sensing point. Connect all of one individual color ofthe 3/4" striped end together and do the same to the other wires(Example: connect all the yellows together and connect all the redstogether.). Using some more of the thermocouple wire connect leads tothese junctions and to the instrument. Insert the twisted 3/8" endsinto the holes of your oven. The ensuing readout indication will be anaverage of the temperature of your oven. Just a little information for your overloaded files from an exMechanical Lab. Manager. Dick Fuhrman from flyfisher@brinet.com Thu Oct 16 12:48:11 1997 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: List Help I need to sign off my old account to the list, but I don't have accessto the account. If anyone can do this for me I'd appreciate the help. The old address is flyfisher@circle.net. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from flyfisher@brinet.com Thu Oct 16 12:59:30 1997 sdavenpo@AVANA.NET,furrer@spock.nlu.edu, kreutzer@frii.com,Walt.Whitman@RHTelCo.Com,FLYFISH@LSV.UKY.EDUSubject: Changin ISP Again I'm changing ISP's again. My new e-mail address is below. Follow thebouncing Donald. :o Donald Yeltonflyfisher@circle.net from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 16 13:30:08 1997 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: stress charts After reviewing the stress charts of the tapers listed in the taperarchives, I find I am just plain confused. Whatever information issupposed to be conveyed is going right over my head. Since I have been aflyfisher for over 50 years, it is not lack of experience and since Imajored in the natural sciences in school, it is not the mathematics that Idon't understand. So why don't I get something useful from the stresscurves? I understand the physics of the stress mechanism; I did major in physics,but what makes a good stress curve and what is a bad curve? All of myremembered experience has been with glass or graphite and I don'tremembera curve for any of them. Also what does the little variations in the dimensions and curvesrepresent. Are these planned or the result of inaccurate measurements.Should a builder strive to achieve a smooth curve for the dimensions forhis rod or are the (what looks like erratic) variations actually preplanned; if so, what is the reasoning. I can see essentially the same two curves reproduced in all of theGarrisontapers in the archive and I've picked up the impression that mostflyfishers don't particularly like that kind of taper. Why? I understandthat much of how a rod performs is subjective, however there are generalrules(don't put the guides at 90 degree WRT the spine.) In short, how canI maximize the chance of getting a rod I like from information gleanedfromthe stress chart. I guess what I am asking is "what does the stress charttell me NOT to do?" Any comments will be appreciated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Oct 16 14:59:05 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 3224; Thu, 16 Oct 97 15:58:46 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 0334; Thu, 16 Oct1997 15:58:46 -0400Subject: Re: curious] MT, I think I saw a used copy of George's bk in an Angler's Art catalogueandI think rather pricey. I occasionally borrow one from our interlibrary loan;it's free. Also George published an article in Fly Fisherman in around 1977on his methods. (He sent me a copy some weeks ago.) If interested, I'd beglad to forward a cpy. Bob. from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Oct 16 15:10:37 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 3289; Thu, 16 Oct 97 16:10:17 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 1245; Thu, 16 Oct1997 16:10:17 -0400Subject: Re: The battle of Good vs Evil Mark you need to use the proper incantations; once accomplished andassumingall planets are aligned I used much finer grits, right down to 600. Thereally fine grits produce a mirror like polish and if the sole is flat you'llknow it. The entire surface will show it. --Bob. from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu Oct 16 15:22:21 1997 Subject: Rod cross-sectional area vs wt. of a rod An interesting book is: "The New American Trout Fishing" by John Merwinand of interest to rodmaking is chapter 9. Some points gleamed from the text, quoted liberally: 1) 83% of the energy generated in a cast is supplied by the caster'sstroke - 17% from the rod's stored energy. 2) A bamboo rod's mass has a greater impact on the above ratio than agraphite. Author offers a test - wrapping lead wt. around a graphiterod's tip. 3). A 9' graphite rod with a 3/8" butt dia. has about 20 sq. inches ofsurface area. That this surface area has a greater impact upon caster'sfatigue at the end of the day than the rod's wt. Try waving a stiff light-wt. unbendable object of 20 sq. inches and aheavier stiff object of the same area. IE a stiff cardboard cutout and awood plank - both of the same shape and test this theory. Author offers an example of a solid boron rod vs a std. tubular graphiteand the amazing difference in the reduced effort needed to cast thethinner rod. My guess is that this might be a very large factor in why a long bamboorod (of large relative dia. to a graphite rod) would be so out of favor- any one else want to concur? FYI Don Bruns PS - Book's ISBN # 0-02-861681-2 Price is $17.95 (US$) from HARRY@wacbhs.tstc.edu Thu Oct 16 15:26:20 1997 16 Oct 97 15:25:58 CST6CDT CST6CDT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: curious] Bob, I would appreciate a copy of the article: Harry E. Clair2636 GlendaleWaco, TX. 76710Evenings (254) 752-4702 If I owe you let me know - Thanks, Harry Date sent: Thu, 16 Oct 97 15:55:34 EDT Subject: Re: curious] MT, I think I saw a used copy of George's bk in an Angler's Art catalogueandI think rather pricey. I occasionally borrow one from our interlibrary loan;it's free. Also George published an article in Fly Fisherman in around 1977on his methods. (He sent me a copy some weeks ago.) If interested, I'd beglad to forward a cpy. Bob. from DEMARALON@aol.com Thu Oct 16 15:53:04 1997 Subject: Report of Tonlin Cane Supply To Rodbuilders and Tonkin Cane Customers: Last June we wrote you concerning the Tonkin Cane supply situation. Wearenow up-dating and have good news. You will recall that we received a container of Tonkin in early June thatwasmoldy and of sub-standard quality. It was our decision not to put thisshipment on the market. We did - and do - feel that our reputation, builtover 80 years of supplying the best quality Tonkin Cane available, is toovaluable to risk on the cost of one container. Because southern China andthe surrounding areas had an extremely heavy and long rainy season thisyearwe were unwilling to take a chance on a recurrence of the mold situationand,therefore, waited. Eileen and I have just returned from another trip to the growing andsortingarea in Huaji (formerly Waitsap) on the Sui River. We again went up themountains where the Tonkin grows and took pleasure in seeing thestraight,erect culms reaching for the sky. We talked with some of the farmers andeven met a man who never had his picture taken. He can no longer say thatand several shots are on the way back to him. As a result of our patience we will receive a container of 12' x 1-3/4" - 2"First Quality Tonkin about the middle of November. l2' x 2 -2-l/2" will beavailable the end of December. As you know, we have been saying foryearsthat if you find a piece actually measuring 2 - 2-l/2, guard it carefully. We have again stressed the importance of having the farmers' markingscloseto the butt and not encircling the culm We cannot guarantee this but wecontinue - as we have for years past - to try. We will continue selling in bale lots and 3 piece minimums. We haveconvinced the Chinese that we really do want the bales to contain 20piecesrather than the 25 they unilaterally decided upon a while ago. As we havedone in the past, we will prepay freight charges on bale lots and therebyreceive a 53% or 55% discount, depending on carrier and location. We shallcontinue to pass these savings on to you. The following price list reflects 20 pieces per bale while holding to the1995 level:Pieces Minimum Each 1- 10 Bales Per Bale Order Piece 12' x 1-3/4 - 2" 20 3 Pcs. $ 26.00$ 305.00/Bale 12' x 2 - 2-1/2" 20 3 Pcs. $ 29.00$ 384.00/Bale F. O. B. LAKEWOOD, NEW JERSEY The12 foot length is available only in bale lots and can be shipped only bycommon carrier. Please provide a commercial address for delivery inorder toavoid extra delivery charges. We prepay the freight and thereby receive a53% or 55% discount from the carrier which we pass on to you. Minimum orders can be shipped via UPS if cut in half (each piece is EAST of Mississippi: Minimum Order $ 25.00Each additional piece 8.30 WEST of Mississippi: Minimum Order 36.00 Each additional piece 12.00 ALASKA, HAWAII,CANADA;Minimum Order 22.00 plusUPS chargesEach additional piece 7.70 plusUPS charges We will be in direct contact with those of you have either placed an orderorhave indicated interest between nor and early November. Cordially, CHARLES H. DEMAREST, INC.Harold Demarest, PresidentOctober l6, l997 from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 16 16:03:07 1997 Subject: Re: flattening one's soul Mark -Your problem may not even be the plane - but other issues. I wouldcheckthe point of the depth gauge. I would wager that you have biffed it and lostthe true zero adjustment. I just got a shipment of points - E-mail me yournew address there in Mt. Pleasant and I will mail you one. Think about it - if the plane sole is crowned it is still making full contact with the forms-If the crown was your problem your strips would be undersized. Here againtrust me - you have a bad point and that is the problem NOT the plane. As aside issue I just put the ink to the agreement with the folks in NY. Trust Me - It's Your PointWayne from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Oct 16 16:30:21 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: curious] BOB COULD YOU EMAIL IT TO PEOPLE, LIKE ME ON THE WEB AND IF NOTCOULD PATRICK COFFEY22220 11TH PL SO DES MOINES, WA 98198 ----------From: Harry Clair[SMTP:HARRY@wacbhs.tstc.edu]Sent: Thursday, October 16, 1997 2:25 PM Subject: Re: curious] Bob, I would appreciate a copy of the article: Harry E. Clair2636 GlendaleWaco, TX. 76710Evenings (254) 752-4702 If I owe you let me know - Thanks, Harry Date sent: Thu, 16 Oct 97 15:55:34 EDT From: RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Robert Milardo) Subject: Re: curious] MT, I think I saw a used copy of George's bk in an Angler's Artcatalogue andI think rather pricey. I occasionally borrow one from ourinterlibrary loan;it's free. Also George published an article in Fly Fisherman inaround 1977on his methods. (He sent me a copy some weeks ago.) If interested,I'd beglad to forward a cpy. Bob. from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Thu Oct 16 16:50:46 1997 Subject: Re: curious] RO>MT, I think I saw a used copy of George's bk in an Angler's Artcatalogue aRO>I think rather pricey. I occasionally borrow one from our interlibraryloanRO>it's free. Also George published an article in Fly Fisherman in around1977RO>on his methods. (He sent me a copy some weeks ago.) If interested, I'dbeRO>glad to forward a cpy. Bob. Bob,I would also appreciate a copy of the article: Dick Fuhrman6212 boston St.Fort Smith, AR 72903Evenings ( 501) 452- 1168 Also I would be happy to reimburse you for any expense incurred forthis. Thank YouDick from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Oct 16 17:15:41 1997 Subject: Re: Plane Difference Bob -If you want a low angle plane (60 1/2) - I'll send you mine - Several ofus have had problems in trying to use this plane to make fly rods. Theproblem I found is that due to the low angle often the bamboo will splitahead of the plane and you will lose control of the amount of removal -thisproblem is reduced however as the strips take on taper - on ocassion Iwillplane against the grain - on the butt of butt sections and on a 'friendly'nodes this could prove to be disasterous with the low angle.But there are makers that swear by the low angle planes - but few Wayne from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 16 17:57:08 1997 Subject: Re: stress charts In a message dated 10/16/97 6:33:49 PM, you wrote: Onis - Most of the tapers listed were not designed by the stress curvemethod, therefore, it would be a minor miracle if the curves were smooth.It's useful to see the curves,however, because if you like the rod inquestion, you have a method of designing a variation of it in differentlength,etc, and coming close to the feel of the original. Also, if youperceive something in the rod you don't like, say, "the tip is a bit toostiff", you have a method of planning the correction. If the taper wasdesigned by the stress curve method and has variations, the hills arewherethe designer wanted a greater flex, and the valleys represent areas ofgreater stiffness. Some don't like them, some do. I believe Garrison was after appropriatecasting power with minimum weight. The butts are moderate, and manypeopletend to overpower them, particularly in the light line sizes. I think thesmoothness of his curves translates into a smooth casting response, thatis,as the cast lengthens, the casting effort increases very proportionately. Ilike them, particularly in the heavier models.The two principal methods of designing a rod are the stress curve and thethickness chart, either will make a good rod if you learn how to use it.Neither will save you from doing your homework. You have to decide whatkindof rod you personally like before you can get started with either method. from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Thu Oct 16 19:20:42 1997 mailfep2-hme1 via smap (KC5.24) Subject: Re: Plane Difference type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob -If you want a low angle plane (60 1/2) - I'll send you mine -Several ofus have had problems in trying to use this plane to make fly rods. The problem I found is that due to the low angle often the bamboo willsplitahead of the plane and you will lose control of the amount of removal- thisproblem is reduced however as the strips take on taper - on ocassion Iwillplane against the grain - on the butt of butt sections and on a'friendly'nodes this could prove to be disasterous with the low angle.But there are makers that swear by the low angle planes - but few Wayne I can only echo Wayne's comments. On my very first cane rod, a few yearsago  I discoverd that, for me, the 60 1/2 had much too low an angle ofattack. No matter how sharp the blade, or how fine an adjustment of theshoe, the plane wanted to 'lift' cane not shave cane. The 9 1/2, with ablade beveled at 30 degrees has always done the trick for me. I guess weall settle with what will do the job  a standard #5 Bailey and awell-tuned 9 1/2 have been the workhorses in my shop. Good luck.Joe Loverti http://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 16 19:28:45 1997 ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: curious] Would also like a copy and will "ditto" other comments. Fred Bohls3519 Ada DriveMechanicsburg, PA 17055 dickfuhrman@rheemote.com wrote: RO?MT, I think I saw a used copy of George's bk in an Angler's Artcatalogue aRO?I think rather pricey. I occasionally borrow one from our interlibraryloanRO?it's free. Also George published an article in Fly Fisherman in around1977RO?on his methods. (He sent me a copy some weeks ago.) If interested,I'd beRO?glad to forward a cpy. Bob. Bob,I would also appreciate a copy of the article: Dick Fuhrman6212 boston St.Fort Smith, AR 72903Evenings ( 501) 452- 1168 Also I would be happy to reimburse you for any expense incurred forthis. Thank YouDick --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~FRED BOHLS, CFPBohls Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17011-9698Office: (717) 732- 2448Fax: (717) 732-2414e-mail: fcfp@ix.netcom.com from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Oct 16 20:48:56 1997 Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:48:46 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Plane Difference On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob -If you want a low angle plane (60 1/2) - I'll send you mine - Several ofus have had problems in trying to use this plane to make fly rods. Theproblem I found is that due to the low angle often the bamboo will splitahead of the plane and you will lose control of the amount of removal -thisproblem is reduced however as the strips take on taper - on ocassion Iwillplane against the grain - on the butt of butt sections and on a 'friendly'nodes this could prove to be disasterous with the low angle.But there are makers that swear by the low angle planes - but few Wayne Wayne,since you've used both planes and see that the problem of tear outs is reduced as the taper is defined have you noticed if the 60 1/2 finishes the spline better once taken to the final dimension?I'm asking this in light of "the challange" as a finer finish from the plane *may* reduce the need for final scraping vs. the finish left by a 9 1/2.I finish my splines with an LN scraper but before getting the scraper I found the finish with the plane alone not too bad. Never having used a 9 1/2 I can't compare the finish. Tony/***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 16 21:14:20 1997 ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: stress charts OK. So if I am reading you correctly, I can't leap frog the process and Ireally have to learn for myself. Pick a good looking taper and build andthen look critically at the result. Sounds reasonable. I THINK I like arod with most of the action in the tip. That translates into a stresscurve with a peak near the top of the rod dropping off quickly as you movedown the rod. I may find however, that I like a slower action with theaction strecthed out over the entire rod and that is something I will haveto determine for myself. Keep an open mind and experiment. Sounds like Iam going to need that whole bundle of cane I ordered. That's OK. Rods areto a fisherman like pipes are to a pipe smoker; the more the better. Thanks for the input. I'm just glad I've got the planing form done and I'ma little closer to the rods. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 06:56 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 10/16/97 6:33:49 PM, you wrote: represent. Are these planned or the result of inaccurate measurements.>> Onis - Most of the tapers listed were not designed by the stress curvemethod, therefore, it would be a minor miracle if the curves weresmooth.It's useful to see the curves,however, because if you like the rod inquestion, you have a method of designing a variation of it in differentlength,etc, and coming close to the feel of the original. Also, if youperceive something in the rod you don't like, say, "the tip is a bit toostiff", you have a method of planning the correction. If the taper wasdesigned by the stress curve method and has variations, the hills arewherethe designer wanted a greater flex, and the valleys represent areas ofgreater stiffness. Some don't like them, some do. I believe Garrison was after appropriatecasting power with minimum weight. The butts are moderate, and manypeopletend to overpower them, particularly in the light line sizes. I think thesmoothness of his curves translates into a smooth casting response, thatis,as the cast lengthens, the casting effort increases very proportionately. Ilike them, particularly in the heavier models.The two principal methods of designing a rod are the stress curve and thethickness chart, either will make a good rod if you learn how to use it.Neither will save you from doing your homework. You have to decide whatkindof rod you personally like before you can get started with either method. from jczimny@dol.net Thu Oct 16 21:46:30 1997 Subject: Re: Plane Difference WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob -If you want a low angle plane (60 1/2) - I'll send you mine - Several ofus have had problems in trying to use this plane to make fly rods. Theproblem I found is that due to the low angle often the bamboo will splitahead of the plane and you will lose control of the amount of removal -thisproblem is reduced however as the strips take on taper - on ocassion Iwillplane against the grain - on the butt of butt sections and on a 'friendly'nodes this could prove to be disasterous with the low angle.But there are makers that swear by the low angle planes - but few WayneHave you tried simply grinding the bevel to a larger angle? One so thatthe included angle would be between 50 and 55 degrees??John from KDLoup@aol.com Thu Oct 16 23:57:45 1997 Subject: moldy cane List, A few days ago, I asked about using cane that had mold in the pith andabout 1/16" into the inner fibers, but no response. Are there any opinionsabout using these culms? At final taper, the mold would probably beplanedout. I would hate to throw away 6 culms. Thanks for any information. KurtLoup from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 17 00:22:14 1997 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA5152 +0000 Subject: Re: moldy cane KDLoup@aol.com wrote: List,A few days ago, I asked about using cane that had mold in the pith andabout 1/16" into the inner fibers, but no response. Are there anyopinionsabout using these culms? At final taper, the mold would probably beplanedout. I would hate to throw away 6 culms. Thanks for any information. KurtLoup To all,I just received my bamboo shipment from Andy Royer...haven't unwrappedit all yet, but I smell mold. In general, do you reject it and if so,at what level of molding? If I keep it, what do I do? Sun it thisweekend? Spray with a fungicide? Spray with liquid chlorine bleach?(Twenty culms are fun to try to fit into the back of a Toyota SHORT bedtruck.)Thanks in advance to all who respond. George Bourke from santiago@ricochet.net Fri Oct 17 00:49:08 1997 AAA29401 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:50:12 Subject: Re: moldy cane irish-george@worldnet.att.net wrote: KDLoup@aol.com wrote: List,A few days ago, I asked about using cane that had mold in the pith andabout 1/16" into the inner fibers, but no response. Are there anyopinionsabout using these culms? At final taper, the mold would probably beplanedout. I would hate to throw away 6 culms. Thanks for any information. KurtLoup To all,I just received my bamboo shipment from Andy Royer...haven't unwrappedit all yet, but I smell mold. In general, do you reject it and if so,at what level of molding? If I keep it, what do I do? Sun it thisweekend? Spray with a fungicide? Spray with liquid chlorine bleach?(Twenty culms are fun to try to fit into the back of a Toyota SHORT bedtruck.)Thanks in advance to all who respond. George Bourke try opening it up and looking at the cane. what do you see? if we areto play guessing, i would guess that there is a fine dust that can bewiped off and would guess that you will see great cane if you purchasedthe 12' culms. leo from Thomas.ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Fri Oct 17 06:17:39 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA28125 for; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:17:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Report of Tonlin Cane Supply Hello, I would be interested in 3 peices of 1 3/4 - 2". Please advise me it is available and what method of payment is preferred.Also, if it is possible, could I get an idea on the cost of shipping a bale Dartmouth Hitchcock Med. Ctr.One Medical Ctr. Dr.Lebanon, NH 03756 thanks..Tom AusfeldRR 1 Box 125E. Corinth, VT 05040 from Thomas.ausfeld@Hitchcock.ORG Fri Oct 17 06:27:52 1997 mailhub.hitchcock.org (8.6.12-DND/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA21189 for; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:27:50 -0400 Subject: Sorry Sorry,Boy, I feel like a dufus....Let me send that to who I wanted it to go to..... t Hello, I would be interested in 3 peices of 1 3/4 - 2". Please advise me it is available and what method of payment is preferred.Also, if it is possible, could I get an idea on the cost of shipping a bale Dartmouth Hitchcock Med. Ctr.One Medical Ctr. Dr.Lebanon, NH 03756 thanks..Tom AusfeldRR 1 Box 125E. Corinth, VT 05040 from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Oct 17 07:37:17 1997 Subject: Fwd: Re: stress charts Sorry if this is redundant, guys, my reply to Onis never showed up and Ithought AOL might have lost it.---------------------Forwarded message:Subj: Re: stress charts In a message dated 10/16/97 6:33:49 PM, you wrote: Onis - Most of the tapers listed were not designed by the stress curvemethod, therefore, it would be a minor miracle if the curves were smooth.It's useful to see the curves,however, because if you like the rod inquestion, you have a method of designing a variation of it in differentlength,etc, and coming close to the feel of the original. Also, if youperceive something in the rod you don't like, say, "the tip is a bit toostiff", you have a method of planning the correction. If the taper wasdesigned by the stress curve method and has variations, the hills arewherethe designer wanted a greater flex, and the valleys represent areas ofgreater stiffness. Some don't like them, some do. I believe Garrison was after appropriatecasting power with minimum weight. The butts are moderate, and manypeopletend to overpower them, particularly in the light line sizes. I think thesmoothness of his curves translates into a smooth casting response, thatis,as the cast lengthens, the casting effort increases very proportionately. Ilike them, particularly in the heavier models.The two principal methods of designing a rod are the stress curve and thethickness chart, either will make a good rod if you learn how to use it.Neither will save you from doing your homework. You have to decide whatkindof rod you personally like before you can get started with either method. from jerry.snider@UC.Edu Fri Oct 17 08:39:51 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, Subject: Re: moldy cane Re mouldy cane from Andy Royer. I too just received two bundles of cane from Andy. As expected, it was surface mildewed. Simply wipe the mildewoffthe surface with a towel soaked in alcohol. In my case, the mildew had notpenetrated the cuticle so no damage done. Store in a warm, dry, airy areaand watch for a few days to be certain that renewed growth doesn't occur.Iam not speaking from rod-building experience, but from a botanicalbackground.At 10:51 PM 10/16/97 +0000, you wrote:irish- george@worldnet.att.net wrote: KDLoup@aol.com wrote: List,A few days ago, I asked about using cane that had mold in the pithandabout 1/16" into the inner fibers, but no response. Are there anyopinionsabout using these culms? At final taper, the mold would probably beplanedout. I would hate to throw away 6 culms. Thanks for any information.KurtLoup To all,I just received my bamboo shipment from Andy Royer...haven'tunwrappedit all yet, but I smell mold. In general, do you reject it and if so,at what level of molding? If I keep it, what do I do? Sun it thisweekend? Spray with a fungicide? Spray with liquid chlorine bleach?(Twenty culms are fun to try to fit into the back of a Toyota SHORT bedtruck.)Thanks in advance to all who respond. George Bourke try opening it up and looking at the cane. what do you see? if we areto play guessing, i would guess that there is a fine dust that can bewiped off and would guess that you will see great cane if you purchasedthe 12' culms. leo Jerry SniderProfessor of Biological Sciences andCurator of the Herbarium (CINC) Department of Biological SciencesP.O. Box 210006University of CincinnatiCincinnati, OH 45221-0006Phone: Office/Lab (513)556-9761e- mail:CINC@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDUhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from d-deloach1@ti.com Fri Oct 17 09:36:23 1997 (8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27154 for ; Fri, dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id PQOKBXBN; Fri,17 Oct 1997 09:35:48 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: moldy cane I got my bundle yesterday and yes there was some surface mold but itwiped offeasily. The cane underneath looks as good as any I've seen, and there's nofarmers graffiti or straighterned culms--they're all usable. Dr. Don ------------------Original text Re mouldy cane from Andy Royer. I too just received two bundles of cane from Andy. As expected, it was surface mildewed. Simply wipe the mildewoffthe surface with a towel soaked in alcohol. In my case, the mildew had notpenetrated the cuticle so no damage done. Store in a warm, dry, airy areaand watch for a few days to be certain that renewed growth doesn't occur.Iam not speaking from rod-building experience, but from a botanicalbackground.At 10:51 PM 10/16/97 +0000, you wrote:irish- george@worldnet.att.net wrote: KDLoup@aol.com wrote: List,A few days ago, I asked about using cane that had mold in the pithandabout 1/16" into the inner fibers, but no response. Are there anyopinionsabout using these culms? At final taper, the mold would probably beplanedout. I would hate to throw away 6 culms. Thanks for any information.KurtLoup To all,I just received my bamboo shipment from Andy Royer...haven'tunwrappedit all yet, but I smell mold. In general, do you reject it and if so,at what level of molding? If I keep it, what do I do? Sun it thisweekend? Spray with a fungicide? Spray with liquid chlorine bleach?(Twenty culms are fun to try to fit into the back of a Toyota SHORT bedtruck.)Thanks in advance to all who respond. George Bourke try opening it up and looking at the cane. what do you see? if we areto play guessing, i would guess that there is a fine dust that can bewiped off and would guess that you will see great cane if you purchasedthe 12' culms. leo Jerry SniderProfessor of Biological Sciences andCurator of the Herbarium (CINC) Department of Biological SciencesP.O. Box 210006University of CincinnatiCincinnati, OH 45221-0006Phone: Office/Lab (513)556-9761e- mail: CINC@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDUhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Oct 17 17:05:25 1997 Subject: Re: stress charts In a message dated 10/17/97 7:56:40 PM, you wrote: Yes, that's really the best way to start. I would not usually recommend ataper to someone I have not seen cast, but the Dickerson tapers might be agood place to start if you want a fast rod. BTW, I always thought the 8014was a 6 weight. The one on the rodmakers page is listed as a 5. I knowtherewere some variations. Anyone got the story on this? from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Oct 17 18:54:33 1997 Subject: Re: Re: curious] Dick,I deleted your bit on the bimetal temp. guage so am answering this post.Iuse three oven thermometers put through 3 holes in my oven-1 on each endandone in the middle-works for me.Hank. from KDLoup@aol.com Fri Oct 17 19:49:52 1997 Subject: Re: moldy cane List, The cane I have has been split in half. If you look at the splitedge, mold is in the pith and into about 1/16" of the pith side fibers. Ifyou were to taper strips, the mold may be planed out. Some pieces havemoldthoughout the fibers, from the enamel to the pith. These I will trash. Anysuggestions? Kurt Loup from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Oct 17 20:14:56 1997 Subject: Re: flattening one's soul I have had a couple of personal e-mails about the answer that I gaveMarkconcerning the crown in the plane sole not being his problem. I amrespondingto the group to save typing and to let others hear the reasons.A concaved sole can reek havic because it will allow the bamboo to belifted from the forms and the strips can become cut undersized. I own 10ofthe Stanley g12-920 and every one came with a concaved sole - as muchas.011" at the blade.BUT - a crown will NEVER cause a problem. Follow along - let's say thataplane has a crown that crests in the center of the plane and that each sideis .003" low. That means that in 3/4" width there is a rise (or falldepending on where you start) that is .003". If you plane reasonably inlinewith the forms your worst incident of error would only be .001". Thiscomes from the fact that even at the butt end of most butt sections the width ofthe cut will be only about 1/4" or 1/3 the rise to the center. Now if youareplaning so that the crown crests in the middle of the crown there is noerrorat all seen in measuring the strips and the concave that is left in themiddle of the face of the strip would only be .0005" because you wouldonlybe exposing 1/2 of the width of the strip either side of the crown ordividing the margin of error (.003") by 1/6. In fact is the crown is adescribed above on final planing when the crown would contact each sideofthe forms the second example would hold true in all cases whether in themiddle of the plane or along any point up to the edge of the blade. So theworst possible over dimension error with a crowned sole is .0000000000"-here again that is because you will have a concaved flat that would be.0005"deep in the center. Then the problem of the 3 flat to point dimensions not being equal - yourangles aren't true 60 degrees. some where along the planing path one ofthefollowing things happened. 1) blade in crooked - the plane blade and the sole weren't in alignment -fix- straighten blade to sole surface 2) rocking your hand - fix - set a mirror at the end of the forms so thatyoucan watch as you pass along the forms - also it could be that you wereusinga dull blade or a blade with a flipped burr and that you were applying toomuch down pressure to make the plane cut 3) debris under the front foot - fix clean out debris I wish I could tell you that the fix were as finding the problem - if youare at the forms it's too late for correction but the overall cross sectionalarea will probably be the same you just won't have a true hexagonal shape-it will be skewed by a few thousanths.If you have material left you can try to correct the angles - first youmust determine the high side - looking at it with the center gauge willtellyou which is high and low then tilt the pland to the high side and make apass. Understand that on the first few pass first there will be only a hairremoved and then the shaving will get wider and wider with eachsuccessfulpass after that. Then flip to the other side and repeat. I do hope that everyone realizes that I'm not trying to put Mark on thespot here - I have had similar problems in the past and put in countlesshours of grief in trying to solve them. Just sharing Mark you still need a new point for your depth gauge Wayne I hope Wayne from WayneCatt@aol.com Fri Oct 17 21:41:44 1997 Subject: Re: stress charts Onis -What Tom has said is solid sage advice. Perhaps I'm the worst culprit simplyspit out rod designs. You can BUT do you know what you have or how tochangeit to a more desirable design. No you don't have to make the rods toachievethe understanding But you do need to cast them and then examine a curvetodiscover what is different or common one rod to another. At present thereareno standards. Yes you hear the terms - slow - medium - fast or parabloic -semi parabolic - dry fly but there are really no clear cut guidelines.An excellent way to cast a variety of rods is to attend one of the manygathering that occur through out the year. It would be time will spent.Concerning Mr. Garrison's curve - it in comparison to other makers ideasof that era was rather simplistic. Several makers were using 3" stationsanda couple were making deviations as close as 1 1/2" - one could start thediscussion of which were better the simple or the complex - the postswouldlast for weeks to come. The answer however is simple - which ever youprefer- you are in control. But be forewarned - some answers will escape you lifetime. Wayne from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Oct 17 22:30:29 1997 Subject: Help me ID a blank I just received a 7'0" (3/1) cane blank from Len Codella. He saidbecause he's been burnt badly in the past that he won't tell the mfg. ofthe blank. I'm interested in knowing anyway, mostly to know about the taper and tobe able to find other similar tapers in the archive should I like theaction. Until I measure the taper, here's what I've got to go on. Len C. said it's from a quality production-house source, not a Montagueetc - better than that. Heddon? Leonard? English-maker? The butt has a pronounced swell, the butt is also about 2.5" - 3"shorter than the other sections. A hollow reelseat spacer? Heddon didthat sometimes. But it was supplied with ferrules. Don't look like any Heddon ferrulesI've erer seen. The males are unique to me (big deal - what's else is new), in that theyare formed from straight tubing, hand water-proofed and with a hand-welt(?) midway down the tube (acts as a stop?). Male and females are not serrated, appear to be crimped to the flats andground to thin them down towards the cane end. Females are hand- weltedand water-proofed. There's a machined step down on the females to allowthread wrap up over the ferrule. All the ferrules are bright NS. Reported to be Super-Z's by Len Cordella. The butt section is inked " 7'0" #4" and then a "M" or "H" near the buttend. The rod is a #4 wt. rod. The cane is browntoned, not node-less and the glue lines are very good.The butt is almost 3-3 node spacing - others sections not. Reported tobe lightly- flamed (must be very lightly). Any clues? No complains - just want to know if it's a decent taper. What's the best reelseat to be used on the short ~0.410" O.D. butt? Iguess a cork C&R is out - but will a wood spacer hold up? Thx, Don Burns PS - I love to have a new REC catalog. (hint) from dryfly@erols.com Fri Oct 17 22:41:06 1997 [207.172.206.180] didn't use HELO protocol Subject: Re: Plane Difference WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob -If you want a low angle plane (60 1/2) - I'll send you mine - Several ofus have had problems in trying to use this plane to make fly rods. Theproblem I found is that due to the low angle often the bamboo will splitahead of the plane and you will lose control of the amount of removal -thisproblem is reduced however as the strips take on taper - on ocassion Iwillplane against the grain - on the butt of butt sections and on a 'friendly'nodes this could prove to be disasterous with the low angle.But there are makers that swear by the low angle planes - but few Wayne Wayne and Others I appreciate your offer and comments. However, I currently have twoolder Stanley 9 1/2's and a new Record 9 1/2 and was just trying to seeif there were any advantages to using both the 60 1/2 and 9 1/2. As aresult of your comments it appears there are none - therefore I willcontinue to use the 9 1/2's and forget any consideration to obtainingand using a 60 1/2. Thanks all. Bob from shane.m.hubbs@vanderbilt.edu Fri Oct 17 23:34:40 1997 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:32:11 CDT Subject: Re: curious] Rodmakers, Does anybody know where I can acquire a copy of Barnes's book "How tomakeBamboo Fly Rods". Thanks Shane M. Hubbs from saltwein@swbell.net Sat Oct 18 06:02:24 1997 Subject: Re: flattening one's soul Wayne, Very interesting and insightful analysis. This presents a problem forme as I thought trenching my plane by .003" would be the answer topreserving my wooden forms. Am I going to have major problems reaching final dimensions because ofthe bamboo lifting? Is there any way to over come this? Regards, Steve from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat Oct 18 06:31:17 1997 Subject: New Cane Greetings:We received our cane yesterday and have a word of caution for newbies. Ourpool obtained a bundle of cane 3-4 years ago, and used the Garrison bookadvice of merely starting a check split through the first node or two atthebutt end. The idea was that the check split would work its way up thru andout the tip end as the bamboo dried and shrank. It did not work, in that thesplit did not progress up the culm to the end; it only went a node or two.What then happened was that the culm fissured the rest of the way,meaningerratic tears and intramodal and internodal splits randomly located allaround the circumference, especially in the last three sections, resultinginthe loss of many strips. We strongly recommend a full length split. Ourbundle of our Royer cane was open at one end, and I did see a fissurestarting on a culm towards the small end, so I will split out my culmstoday,full length and recommend that procedure to all. Richard from SealRite@aol.com Sat Oct 18 06:59:58 1997 Subject: Mailings I had all my rod makers's mail dropped by AOL about six months ago, andforsome reason, I did not receive any more. Is the list still functioning, andif so, does anyone know how to get the mail back on line. I triedre- subscribing, but the message came back that I was already subscribed. - Frustrated in Lincoln from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Sat Oct 18 09:01:22 1997 (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Sat, 18 Oct 97 09:59:12 EDT Subject: angular problems Wayne's explanation is lucid--as it always is. As I noted in my original post: I'm trying to break the .003barrier. I can consistently plane splines so that all measurements arewithin .003 of target dimensions and with each other at a single station. Ican often/usually get measurements to less than .003. I can evenfrequentlyget them right on-- but that seems more luck than skill. The problem isthatI can't ALWAYS get ALL measurements to within .001. My effort here is toremove any variation in equiptment I can find in order to lower thatdegreeof error. My new mantra has become: "the variables come out of the woodworkat.003." As with most things, one faces diminishing returns. And, of course,there is the question at what point do variations not matter. I'd say .003is not at that point yet. One additional problem that he didn't quite cover is that a crownedsole tends, I think, to tip to one side more than a perfectly flat one.This disagrees with nothing Wayne wrote; it goes under the heading ofhand-control. It seems easier, to me, to keep the plane flat with respectto the forms if the sole is flat. But this may be an illusion. Wayne: I could use a new point--can't find a place in Mt. P thatsells things like that. --Mark -- P.S. the plane is pretty flat now thanks to those who suggested glassinstead of plixiglass and a figure-eight motion rather than simply backandforth.Prof. Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Literature and LanguageCentral Michigan University from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Oct 18 11:04:59 1997 Subject: Re: flattening one's soul In a message dated 97-10-18 07:03:40 EDT, you write: Very interesting and insightful analysis. This presents a problem forme as I thought trenching my plane by .003" would be the answer topreserving my wooden forms. Am I going to have major problems reaching final dimensions because ofthe bamboo lifting? Is there any way to over come this? Steve,Grooving the sole of your plane to .003 will not produce any liftingof the spline when planing. All my planes are grooved and I evengrooved my Lie Nielsen scraper. I've never had the problem of thespline lifting. I would assume that lifting produces undersized splines.In fact I get a spline .001 oversized, because the blade isn't right down on the forms. This is easily compensated for, and in fact .001 comesoff easily during final sanding of the glued up blank. There are two major advantages to grooving the sole of your plane.The blade never comes in contact with your form, so if your formisn't steel it lasts longer, and if it is you don't get nicks in the steel.Blade sharpness lasts a lot longer. Before I grooved my planes, onelittle touch of the blade on the form and I had to resharpen. Mark,The only reason I can think of for splines not being within .003 flatto point is they aren't equilateral. If you have already checked yourforms for trueness, when do you remove the enamel? the enamelside is very slightly rounded and can throw off the way the splinesits in the form. Darryl Hayashida from Crossview1@aol.com Sat Oct 18 11:30:38 1997 Subject: Re: curious] Have you tried Amazon.com? from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 18 12:40:59 1997 ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: stress charts I really thank you folk for the information. My brother is a master modelairplane builder. He says that he always builds each model twice. Healways builds it in his mind before he builds it. As I tool up, I amcollecting as much knowledge as I can. The better I understand thesciencepart of the building as early as possible, the better off I will be. Theart has to be learned slowly. So I really appreciate your advice. Soundslike the right way to me. I would really like to cast different rods at a get together but I reallyonly have two chances of doing that; slim and none. I live in Austin,Texas. Finding a good selection of any fly rods to cast is difficult;finding a selection of people who fish with bamboo is next to impossible.I will keep that thought in mind and when my work takes me traveling, Iwill check the area I am going to for possible gatherings. I expect I really need to plan on getting the Garrison book. Since I havethe normal tooling up costs, I felt I could initially afford only one book.I chose yours, Wayne, as my beginning text. I like it very much and itreally provides me with all I need at this time. As I will initially bebuilding from the taper archive, I can afford to let the design knowledgeaccumulate more sloiwly. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 10:41 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote:Onis -What Tom has said is solid sage advice. Perhaps I'm the worst culprit simplyspit out rod designs. You can BUT do you know what you have or how tochangeit to a more desirable design. No you don't have to make the rods toachievethe understanding But you do need to cast them and then examine a curvetodiscover what is different or common one rod to another. At presentthere areno standards. Yes you hear the terms - slow - medium - fast or parabloic-semi parabolic - dry fly but there are really no clear cut guidelines.An excellent way to cast a variety of rods is to attend one of the manygathering that occur through out the year. It would be time will spent.Concerning Mr. Garrison's curve - it in comparison to other makers of that era was rather simplistic. Several makers were using 3" stationsanda couple were making deviations as close as 1 1/2" - one could start thediscussion of which were better the simple or the complex - the postswouldlast for weeks to come. The answer however is simple - which ever youprefer- you are in control. But be forewarned - some answers will escape you lifetime. Wayne from jasid@juno.com Sat Oct 18 15:31:10 1997 16:29:47 EDT Subject: Re: Mailings Same thing happened to me. Try unsubscribing, then subscribe in a day ortwo. I had all my rod makers's mail dropped by AOL about six months ago, and forsome reason, I did not receive any more. Is the list still functioning, andif so, does anyone know how to get the mail back on line. I triedre-subscribing, but the message came back that I was already subscribed. -Frustrated in Lincoln from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 18 16:30:04 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA2923 +0000 Subject: unsubscribing from lewis hawks A Jassid wrote: Same thing happened to me. Try unsubscribing, then subscribe in a day ortwo. I had all my rod makers's mail dropped by AOL about six months ago,and forsome reason, I did not receive any more. Is the list stillfunctioning, andif so, does anyone know how to get the mail back on line. I triedre-subscribing, but the message came back that I was alreadysubscribed. -Frustrated in Lincoln i am unsubscibing from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Oct 18 16:45:45 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: stress charts if you can afford it get Wayne's video, watching some one do it willgreatly help you understand the process and if you have the tape as areference as apposed to a memory or a book you can pull the appropriatesection up as you are going through the various stages. ----------From: Onis Cogburn[SMTP:k5vkq@ix.netcom.com]Sent: Saturday, October 18, 1997 10:34 AM Subject: Re: stress charts I really thank you folk for the information. My brother is a mastermodelairplane builder. He says that he always builds each model twice. Healways builds it in his mind before he builds it. As I tool up, I amcollecting as much knowledge as I can. The better I understand thesciencepart of the building as early as possible, the better off I will be.Theart has to be learned slowly. So I really appreciate your advice.Soundslike the right way to me. I would really like to cast different rods at a get together but Ireallyonly have two chances of doing that; slim and none. I live in Austin,Texas. Finding a good selection of any fly rods to cast is difficult;finding a selection of people who fish with bamboo is next toimpossible.I will keep that thought in mind and when my work takes me traveling,Iwill check the area I am going to for possible gatherings. I expect I really need to plan on getting the Garrison book. Since Ihavethe normal tooling up costs, I felt I could initially afford only onebook.I chose yours, Wayne, as my beginning text. I like it very much anditreally provides me with all I need at this time. As I will initiallybebuilding from the taper archive, I can afford to let the designknowledgeaccumulate more sloiwly. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 10:41 PM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote:Onis -What Tom has said is solid sage advice. Perhaps I'm the worstculprit simplyspit out rod designs. You can BUT do you know what you have or how tochangeit to a more desirable design. No you don't have to make the rods toachievethe understanding But you do need to cast them and then examine acurve todiscover what is different or common one rod to another. At presentthere areno standards. Yes you hear the terms - slow - medium - fast orparabloic -semi parabolic - dry fly but there are really no clear cutguidelines.An excellent way to cast a variety of rods is to attend one ofthe manygathering that occur through out the year. It would be time willspent.Concerning Mr. Garrison's curve - it in comparison to othermakers ideasof that era was rather simplistic. Several makers were using 3"stations anda couple were making deviations as close as 1 1/2" - one could startthediscussion of which were better the simple or the complex - the postswouldlast for weeks to come. The answer however is simple - which ever youprefer- you are in control. But be forewarned - some answers will escapeyou for alifetime. Wayne from jsbond@inforamp.net Sat Oct 18 17:06:26 1997 Subject: Re: New Cane We are about to receive our cane too, we are planning to drill through theentire culm with a hole saw. The hole saw is attached to a six foot rodthatwe drill through from one end and then the other. This releases all thepressure on the internodal dams, hence, no splitting. It eliminates themulti splitting that normally occurs. JB At 07:30 18/10/97 -0400, you wrote: Greetings:We received our cane yesterday and have a word of caution for newbies. Ourpool obtained a bundle of cane 3-4 years ago, and used the Garrison bookadvice of merely starting a check split through the first node or two atthebutt end. The idea was that the check split would work its way up thruandout the tip end as the bamboo dried and shrank. It did not work, in thatthesplit did not progress up the culm to the end; it only went a node or two.What then happened was that the culm fissured the rest of the way,meaningerratic tears and intramodal and internodal splits randomly located allaround the circumference, especially in the last three sections, resultinginthe loss of many strips. We strongly recommend a full length split. Ourbundle of our Royer cane was open at one end, and I did see a fissurestarting on a culm towards the small end, so I will split out my culmstoday,full length and recommend that procedure to all. Richard James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from WayneCatt@aol.com Sat Oct 18 17:45:53 1997 Subject: Re: stress charts Onis -I knew a bamboo rod maker from Austin - he now lives in Lyons, CO. Ihavein the past posted several thoughts on rod design - I am now motavated tocollect up all the thoughts and polish the words and I will be posting themas they are completed. As far as making it to one of the get togethers Iwouldn't lose all hope others come up from texas and missouri - you mightbeable to work something out. Best of LuckWayne from wch@rt66.com Sat Oct 18 20:58:17 1997 Subject: stress chart questions Please excuse me if I'm missing something and asking questions withobviousanswers. I'm new to the list and would like to try my hand at building acane rod this winter, so I've started doing the necessary backgroundresearch. While I'm waiting for my special order Garrison book to arrive,I've looked at the stress curves at the rodmakers web site, read WayneCattanach's explanation of Garrison's design calculations, and tried tofollow the discussion during the past couple of days. But, some things arestill unclear. My questions are: 1) What are the units of stress shown on the stress curves? They seemfartoo high to be pounds/square inch. Maybe ounces or grains per squareinch? 2) What kind of stress do the curves illustrate and what does f(b) denote?I'm guessing something like the fiber stress along the outer edge of atapered beam of octagonal cross section. from Wayne Cattanach's essayaboutbending moments, it seems like the analysis is based on static loading ofasimple elastic beam. Am I even close? 3) The curves look a little jagged, making me think that they're actualexperimental measurements rather than the results of calculations. If so,can someone describe the set up that is used to obtain the measurements?I'm envisioning some kind of setup where a rod is clamped at the butt endand the deflection is measured as weights are added. Or, if the curves aretheoretical calculations, is there some reference to the procedure? I'veseen references to the hexrod computer program, but is there somewhere Ican obtain documentation of the math behind the code? Thanks Bill Haneberg from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Oct 19 17:31:22 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: test This is a test. Please disregard. from Bopep@aol.com Sun Oct 19 19:39:38 1997 Subject: RE: Prepping nodes Silly question for anybody:When vising nodes, would it hurt to vise the node straight first the re-heatand flattennext? They seem to want to pop back up upon re-heating to straightenafterflattening.Seems like it should be okay doesn't it?Rob Hoffhines from flyfisher@cmix.com Sun Oct 19 20:17:00 1997 Subject: RE: Mystery "Princess" Rod Subject: RE: Mystery "Princess" Rod Wayne,I had sent the message about a rod I was asked to refinish. The onlywords I could make out were Princess. It was a 7' and said HDH for theline size. Nicely flamed cane with what appeard to be blackened guidesand ferrules with a cork and ring reel seat. It also had a serialnumber both on tip and butt. I was wondering if anyone knew who madeit. Brian>> Brian, Could it be a Paul Young "Princess" - very few exist. Don Burns from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Oct 19 21:48:20 1997 Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:48:10 +0800 (WST) Subject: LN Block plane So many people are using the 9 1/2 plane it's made me think I should give using one a go, so a question. Of course..... Any body out there actually using a LN block plane for planing splines?I'm happy with my 60 1/2 but I've come into a situation where by I'm able to get a 20 deg plane at W/S price (a little more than retail for aRecord 9 1/2) but I can't see one "in the flesh" first. This model dosn't have an adjustable throat but maybe the gap is fine enough or possibly there is a means of adjusting the possition of the iron sort of like the frog of a bench plane? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from cmax@jymis.com Mon Oct 20 00:00:37 1997 Subject: West System Epoxy Rodmakers,I have been on a quest to locate a local source for rod making epoxy. After visiting with several individuals around the Ft. Collins, Co areaI was continually pointed towards a product called West System. Unfortunatly, none of the people I spoke with could give me anyinformation about heat curing this epoxy. Anyone ever tried it? Also, I picked up a small bottle of "Gorrila Glue", The guys at thewood working shop swear by it as a replacement for Resorcinol. I triedthe glue on a short test section, just allowing it to cure at roomtemp. The strips held together fine. I am a bit concerened that thebond will not be rigid enough to prevent the strips from sliding againsteach other, as with some epoxies. If anyone has tried this adhesive andfound it to be less than bueno, Please let me know before I waste anymore time on it. Thanks in advance! Chris M. Maxfield from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 20 00:59:51 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA10851 +0000 Subject: Re: West System Epoxy West System epoxy is used as a fastener and coating on boats. I have usedit in restoring an old wooden drift boat, don't have a clue on using it forrods. Believe it was discussed briefly on this list a year or so ago. At 06:07 AM 10/20/97 +0000, you wrote:Rodmakers,snip...I was continually pointed towards a product called West System. Unfortunatly, none of the people I spoke with could give me anyinformation about heat curing this epoxy. Anyone ever tried it? Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 20 01:30:07 1997 Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:29:59 +0800 (WST) Subject: West Re: West System Epoxy West is great glue for boats, especially laminations but some pretty switched on people have always said it is not a good glue for bamboo rods.I'd be inclined to take their word on this.Bill Fink recomends Shell Epon epoxy and I've tried some on the scarfs for my nodeless sections but I can't comment on how it compareswith UF or resorcinol as I've not actually glued the finished splines and need to straighten them *yet*.If you're out there Bill, maybe you could wade in on this one? Tony On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Michael Leitheiser wrote: West System epoxy is used as a fastener and coating on boats. I haveusedit in restoring an old wooden drift boat, don't have a clue on using it forrods. Believe it was discussed briefly on this list a year or so ago. At 06:07 AM 10/20/97 +0000, you wrote:Rodmakers,snip...I was continually pointed towards a product called West System. Unfortunatly, none of the people I spoke with could give me anyinformation about heat curing this epoxy. Anyone ever tried it? Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Mon Oct 20 05:58:25 1997 Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 05:59:04 -0500 Subject: RE: curious] 4.0.995.52 Angler Art get them from time to time. They have a waiting list. I'm onit. Amazon has it listed as hard to find. I have never receivedanything(that I ordered) from Amazon that was out of print. Other thanthat Amazon is a great place to get almost any kind of books.It is almost as good as t he old Krocks and Brentano's in Chicago. ----------From: Shane M. Hubbs[SMTP:shane.m.hubbs@vanderbilt.edu]Sent: Friday, October 17, 1997 10:35 PM Cc: Thomas PenroseSubject: Re: curious] Rodmakers, Does anybody know where I can acquire a copy of Barnes's book "How tomakeBamboo Fly Rods". Thanks Shane M. Hubbs from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Oct 20 06:42:43 1997 Subject: RE: Prepping nodes At 20:39 19/10/97 -0400, you wrote:Silly question for anybody:When vising nodes, would it hurt to vise the node straight first the re-heatand flattennext? They seem to want to pop back up upon re-heating to straightenafterflattening.Seems like it should be okay doesn't it?Rob Hoffhines Roff, If your straighten the spline while hot and then place into the vise topress the nodes, things will work out just fine. You may find however, ifyour splines are very much larger than the finished product, the splinemaygo crooked again as the outside material is planed away. I keep the heatgun handy as I plane and restraighten as required. Some splines are reallybad and may require several straightenings. The nodes seem to me to bethemost critical part of building a rod. If you don't get them "right on", thefinished product will greatly suffer.Of course, you could always build nodeless. Lots of folks do.A note on your pressing vise - I made a set of aluminum jaws to "wick"awaythe heat faster. The jaws have cooling fins cut into the backs of them toaid in the heat dispersion. Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Mon Oct 20 06:42:45 1997 Subject: Re: West System Epoxy At 23:07 19/10/97 -0700, you wrote:Rodmakers,I have been on a quest to locate a local source for rod making epoxy. After visiting with several individuals around the Ft. Collins, Co areaI was continually pointed towards a product called West System. Unfortunatly, none of the people I spoke with could give me anyinformation about heat curing this epoxy. Anyone ever tried it? West systems does have an extensive Web site that lists all of theirproducts and technical stuff. No idea what URL.Others on the list tell me not to use the stuff. Don Also, I picked up a small bottle of "Gorrila Glue", The guys at thewood working shop swear by it as a replacement for Resorcinol. I triedthe glue on a short test section, just allowing it to cure at roomtemp. The strips held together fine. I am a bit concerened that thebond will not be rigid enough to prevent the strips from sliding againsteach other, as with some epoxies. If anyone has tried this adhesive andfound it to be less than bueno, Please let me know before I waste anymore time on it. Thanks in advance! Chris M. Maxfield from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 20 08:10:29 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy In a message dated 10/20/97 6:36:04 AM, you wrote: Tony - In Bill"s continued absence, I'll answer this for him. The Epon is agreat glue for gluing splines. Bill has used it for over 30 years with nofailures. I've known Bill for 15 years, and have used it for repair splices,and even built a small boat with it. I was reluctant to try it on gluing up arod, because of concerns over heat straightening. Recently John Zimnyadvisedus that there is a comfortable temperature range between softening andfailure with this product, and I did try it on the hollow built rod Chris B.and I glued up in Roscoe. This rod has now seen some fairly severeconditionsof salt water fishing with no problems. In addition it is very easy toremovethe binding cord, and remove excess glue from the blank. The stuff has averyslow cure. If you remove the string after 24 hours, you can even do somecoldstraighteningTony, If you have glued splices with the Epon, I would also recommend youglue the finished rod with it. If you glue up with a more heat resistantglue, you may go past the failure point for the epoxy in attempting tosoftenResourcinal or Urac for straightening. -- - Tom from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 20 10:29:39 1997 Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:29:30 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy /******* Sniped bits relating to Shell Epon epoxy glue*************/and I glued up in Roscoe. This rod has now seen some fairly severeconditionsof salt water fishing with no problems. In addition it is very easy toremovethe binding cord, and remove excess glue from the blank. The stuff has averyslow cure. If you remove the string after 24 hours, you can even do somecoldstraighteningTony, If you have glued splices with the Epon, I would also recommendyouglue the finished rod with it. If you glue up with a more heat resistantglue, you may go past the failure point for the epoxy in attempting tosoftenResourcinal or Urac for straightening. -- - Tom Tom,Firstly, that plane gets lots of use.That's good advise re the failure of epoxy due to the higher heat requirements of UF and resorcinol. In fact that's the reason I tried this specific glue as I'm looking for an epoxy that will handle higher heat than those I've tried, so far it's been a problem (don't know about Shell Epon yet).Hence I've been using UF for the scarfs but this has ment using long scarf joints (approx 1:25) and shorter ones would be nice. I think only epoxy would safely allow shorter scarfs but as you mention this means aproblem of glue failure during straightening.I'm going to glue this section up with UV as per usual and see how things go with the straightening, you're likely correct in your advise but I'd rather UF/resorcinol as the only rod I've used epoxy to glue the splines has a different action to what I'd prefer and the glue *seems* to me to be the reason, it's not bad, just not for me. Also I'm curious to see how it goes. One other thing you say is also something I noticed. The glue remains soft for an extended time even in the temps I get here, this suprised me but I guess it does allow allow for a lot of fiddling about to get the blank straight Re. twisted rods. I was reading "The Best Of The Planing Form" and I saw what John H Byrd wrote about using the mantle from a kern-mantle construction cord for rod straightening and it got me to thinking you could use this to put the twists into the rod rather than use locks. The nice thing here is that you could set the twist where ever you needed the guide and you'd get a straight rod (if you know what I mean about a straight, twisted rod) at the same time. I'll have to try as soon as can. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 20 10:52:37 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy In a message dated 10/20/97 3:32:37 PM, you wrote: Tony- The Shell Epon softens at 185F, but does not fail until 385F, whichisa big margin for error. My point was not that you had to worry about theEpon, but that if you mixed Epon and resourcinal in the same rod, you couldget in trouble. Rods built with UF seem to me to be the stiffest, also, butthe Epon is not far behind. The only caveat for the epon is that the 185Fmight be approached if you leave the rod in a car in the sun. The stuffwortha try, I'm sorry I waited so long.Interesting thought on the Spiral technique. What issue of TPF was that?Letme know how you make out. -Tom from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Oct 20 11:03:28 1997 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA11754 for; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:04:37 +0100 Subject: H.L.Leonard Rod I had an interesting find the other day - an H.L.Leonard Rod that appears tobe of a style dating back to 1900 - 1910 (?) at least, that's whatShwiebert's seminal Trout reference guide (the Iconography of the splitbamboo rod) seems to indicate. The amazing straightness of the rodsuggeststhat Leonard knew a thing about cane making, and/or the rod has actuallycaught very few fish. Inevitably, it's a bit tatty, and the tips need help.Onehas a 2" off , but the piece and the tip-top are still with the rod: thesecond is complete, but has a partial fracture (I've successfully restoredworse). It's a three-piece 10' with a beautiful long all nickel-silver reel fitting- a sliding ring over raised flutes. Lovely scroll milling here and there.It's called (surprisingly) The H.L.Leonard Rod (engraved on the N/Sfitting). Ferrules are all N/S. The name of the sales agent in Liverpool ishand engraved in the cap (all very up-market). Much of the light red silk is intact. It may be original, or possibly are-wrap back in the early years of the century. The second tip is housed in a very nice bamboo tube, with a brass screw- oncap, and the cloth bag which takes this, and the three other sections,appears to be original. Old Leonards are not really 'my thing'. It would be a good thing if it wentto a loving home, and someone who will be able to restore it properly. Ifanyone is crazy enough to use such a rod, I think it will fish perfectlywell again once restored (hopefully with a silk line, and a vintage flyreel: maybe even a gut cast). The glue lines appear all intact, and the caneis still quite snappy. I guess it would throw a weight 5/6 quite happily. Is anyone interested in the rod ? What's it worth ? John Cooper (England) from bjcoch@arkansas.net Mon Oct 20 11:13:45 1997 mail.anc.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA17179 for; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:14:05 GMT Subject: Re: West System Epoxy Chris Maxfield wrote: Rodmakers,I have been on a quest to locate a local source for rod making epoxy.After visiting with several individuals around the Ft. Collins, Co areaI was continually pointed towards a product called West System.The WEST SYSTEM Epoxy is a cold set product. If you heat it the bondwill break down below 300 deg.f. This epoxy is a flexable bond type andwas developed for boat building using the laid strip method ofconstruction. It will work well for rod building as long as you keep theglue line thickness at the mfg. recomended thickness. A thinner orthicker glue line will affect the bond strength quite a bit. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Oct 20 11:21:28 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Prepping nodes Don Andersen wrote: A note on your pressing vise - I made a set of aluminum jaws to "wick"away the heat faster. The jaws have cooling fins cut into the backs ofthem to aid in the heat dispersion. A question? How much pressure do you use on the vice whenflatteningnodes? I am using an inexpensive woodworking vice (Steel, not wood) and seem to have problems getting the nodes actually flat.Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from rmoon@dns.ida.net Mon Oct 20 11:52:13 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy Tony Young wrote: /******* Sniped bits relating to Shell Epon epoxy glue*************/and I glued up in Roscoe. This rod has now seen some fairly severeconditionsof salt water fishing with no problems. In addition it is very easyto removethe binding cord, and remove excess glue from the blank. The stuffhas a veryslow cure. If you remove the string after 24 hours, you can even dosome coldstraighteningTony, If you have glued splices with the Epon, I would alsorecommend youglue the finished rod with it. If you glue up with a more heatresistantglue, you may go past the failure point for the epoxy in attemptingto softenResourcinal or Urac for straightening. -- - Tom Tom,Firstly, that plane gets lots of use.That's good advise re the failure of epoxy due to the higher heatrequirements of UF and resorcinol. In fact that's the reason I triedthisspecific glue as I'm looking for an epoxy that will handle higher heat than those I've tried, so far it's been a problem (don't know aboutShellEpon yet).Hence I've been using UF for the scarfs but this has ment using longscarfjoints (approx 1:25) and shorter ones would be nice. I think onlyepoxywould safely allow shorter scarfs but as you mention this means aproblemof glue failure during straightening.I'm going to glue this section up with UV as per usual and see howthingsgo with the straightening, you're likely correct in your advise butI'drather UF/resorcinol as the only rod I've used epoxy to glue thesplines has a different action to what I'd prefer and the glue *seems*tome to be the reason, it's not bad, just not for me. Also I'm curiousto seehow it goes. One other thing you say is also something I noticed. The glue remainssoft for an extended time even in the temps I get here, this suprisedmebut I guess it does allow allow for a lot of fiddling about to get the blank straight Re. twisted rods. I was reading "The Best Of The Planing Form" and Isawwhat John H Byrd wrote about using the mantle from a kern-mantleconstruction cord for rod straightening and it got me to thinking youcould use this to put the twists into the rod rather than use locks.Thenice thing here is that you could set the twist where ever you neededtheguide and you'd get a straight rod (if you know what I mean about astraight, twisted rod) at the same time. I'll have to try as soon ascan. Tony /*** *******************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/**********************************************************************/ Tony, I don't understand how John Byrd 's cord system would allow youto twist the rod to the guide pattern. I have been using the lock form lot of force, particularly in the butt to make close twists. I'mwilling to learn another way if there is one. I am just wrapping a twopiece that used to be a one piece 6' twist. It was broken after twohours of use about 12" from the tip. No problem with the rod a kid raninto it. I cut it down and built a new tip, but I have no idea whateffect the ferrule is going to make on the action. I have reservationsand may be starting another 6' one piece. Ralph Moon from gwbarnes@gwi.net Mon Oct 20 11:59:24 1997 Subject: West Epoxy There have been some adverse comments about West System on the listandyou may want to check them out in the archives. I've been using West System for years and have never had a failure in arod,\. The only short coming is a short working time - about 25 minutes if it'sin a cool shop. I also believe there is a relatively short shelf lifeand I tend to get new resin and curing agent every six months or so. I've found the manufacturer to be very responsive to questions and Ithink very honest in their answers. The West System does not have to be heat cured and can be straightenedwith low temperatures. George Barnes from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Oct 20 13:19:20 1997 Subject: to Darryl Hayashida/7' Cattanach Darryl, Sorry about posting to the list but I didn't save your email address.I wondered if I could find out where you placed the ferrule on the 7'Cattanach taper that you built. I have a half dozen strips ready for planing of the initial 30* angleand I wanted to see if my reading of the taper was right. With a 13/64ferrule it will have to go at the point 45 on the taper, correct? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from CALucker@aol.com Mon Oct 20 13:27:10 1997 Subject: Re: West System Epoxy I have never tried West System for the simple reason that I do not want toadd another strengthening factor into my rod building equation. A friendofmine who builds 1990's versions of Garwoods and ChrisCraft runaboutsusesWest System epoxies for everything -- he even tints a thinned-out batchtolook like a dark amber tung oil varnish. West System "varnish" lastslongerthan real varnish therefore saving the boat owner a bundle on refinishcosts-- the bane of runabout owners who have not painted over all theirvarnish. My friend coated both sides of one piece of 1/4 inch plywood with WestSystemand left another identical piece uncoated. He performed a deflection testonthe two pieces. The West System-coated piece was stiffer -- muchstiffer. Regarding Gorilla Glue -- I have never used it for gluing rod sectionsbecause my cane is too dry for Gorilla Glue. Read the instructions. GorillaGlue likes high moisture content. Seven percent is too low for GorillaGlueto work its magic. Another Gorilla Glue problem is that it expands like crazy. I have used itin woodworking applications and have come to the conclusion that it isfilledwith yeast or something. Maybe all the water I apoply to the gluingsurfacesto prep them for Gorilla glue have something to do with all the expansion? from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Mon Oct 20 13:51:21 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 6992; Mon, 20 Oct 97 14:50:53 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 0046; Mon, 20 Oct1997 14:50:53 -0400Subject: Re: H.L.Leonard Rod John, Because Leonard was a local craftsman here in Maine, and becauseof thelocal interest in atlantic salmon that dates back to the turn of thecentury,big Leonards turn up quite regularly here. Last spring two 10 footers sold wts)and they included detachable fighting butts. I regularly use a Leonard14footer; It a big stick and fun to cast with spey style of course. I'm notsure how a 10 footer for a relatively light line would compare to thegrilsemodels in heaver line weights. --Bob. from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Oct 20 13:53:16 1997 Subject: Another mystery rod I just came into posession of a 14 foot two hander that is identified as aSouth Bend rod. I never encountered one before, and the rod does not looklike a South Bend, It looks like an F.E. Thomas or a Leonard. The cane islight colored, and the thread is yellow/gold, it looks like shellac was usedon yellow thread as a color preserver. Above the butt wrap is a multipletrimwrap pattern like Thomas used to use. The snake guides are Englishpattern.The sliding band N/S seat is stamped with the South Bend logo and the bagislabeled also. Anyone have a clue when South Bend made these, or whethertheymay have marketed someone elses? from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Oct 20 14:30:29 1997 Subject: Re: to Darryl Hayashida/7' Cattanach In a message dated 97-10-20 14:22:55 EDT, you write: Sorry about posting to the list but I didn't save your email address.I wondered if I could find out where you placed the ferrule on the 7'Cattanach taper that you built. I have a half dozen strips ready for planing of the initial 30* angleand I wanted to see if my reading of the taper was right. With a 13/64ferrule it will have to go at the point 45 on the taper, correct? I like making my sections exactly the same length. The tip is protecteda little better that way. That would put the ferrule at 42 inches on a7 ft. rod. Darryl Hayashida from hood@hpesdah.fc.hp.com Mon Oct 20 16:47:32 1997 (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA09968; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:47:22 -0600 Subject: Re: stress chart questions Bill, you wrote: Please excuse me if I'm missing something and asking questions withobviousanswers. I'm new to the list and would like to try my hand at building acane rod this winter, so I've started doing the necessary backgroundresearch. While I'm waiting for my special order Garrison book to arrive,I've looked at the stress curves at the rodmakers web site, read WayneCattanach's explanation of Garrison's design calculations, and tried tofollow the discussion during the past couple of days. But, some thingsarestill unclear. My questions are: 1) What are the units of stress shown on the stress curves? They seemfartoo high to be pounds/square inch. Maybe ounces or grains per squareinch? The units of stress are in fact ounces per square inch. 2) What kind of stress do the curves illustrate and what does f(b)denote?I'm guessing something like the fiber stress along the outer edge of atapered beam of octagonal cross section. from Wayne Cattanach's essayaboutbending moments, it seems like the analysis is based on static loading ofasimple elastic beam. Am I even close? Not close but exact! Except, of course, Hexrod only works for a HEXagonalcross section. I have a spread sheet that will work for other shapes;however,it may need a little adjustment for odd-sided rods. 3) The curves look a little jagged, making me think that they're actualexperimental measurements rather than the results of calculations. Ifso,can someone describe the set up that is used to obtain themeasurements?I'm envisioning some kind of setup where a rod is clamped at the buttendand the deflection is measured as weights are added. Or, if the curvesaretheoretical calculations, is there some reference to the procedure? I'veseen references to the hexrod computer program, but is there somewhereIcan obtain documentation of the math behind the code? The curves are calculated from measured tapers. Measurement errors,buildingimperfections, varnish thickness, measurements taken only every 5"and/orrounding to the nearest 0.001" all contribute to the jagged nature of the"curves". (The distance across flats of the hexagonal section is cubed inthe stress equation so small errors have a significant effect.) Many/mostof these rods were not designed to a specific stress curve and to furthercomplicate matters, some of the rods that were have intentional "hinges"andother "unsmooth" characteristics included. The Garrison book you have ordered is the best source for understandingtheprocedure but basically at each point of interest along the length of therod you sum all the bending moments which include: line beyond the tiptop;tiptop;and from the point of interest to the rod tip:line along the rod,guides (if any),varnish,ferrules (if any),cane; divide this bending moment by the moment of inertia of the cross sectionat the point of interest and multiply by the distance from the center tothe surface of the cross section and you have the stress at the point ofinterest. Garrison used this procedure to calculate rod sections from astress curve, but as you can see the moment of the cane is an input (andit's a significant one) to determining the size of the cross section of thecane so there is some recursion. Garrison did these calculations with aslide rule and paper so he made three passes using an initialapproximationbased on the type of rod he was designing; I don't know how many passesHexrod makes, but since it's only computer time there's no reason to stopshort of convergence, other than the fact that we only work to the nearest0.001"! good luck,Davidhood@fc.hp.com from WayneCatt@aol.com Mon Oct 20 18:49:41 1997 Subject: Re: stress chart questions Bill -Over the past years I have (with not much success) tried to explain someof the taper ideas and such that I have seen through several rods. In thepast the post(s) got lengthy and had no charts to go with them. Recently Ihave been motivated to polish the words and get the charts on computer.Withthe popularity of PDF I thought that I would make them available in thisfashion when completed. If you like I can e-mail past posts for now. Torn Between the Workbench & ComputerWayne from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 20 19:51:47 1997 Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:51:39 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: West Epoxy It's been a long time since I've used West glue, but I think I remember using the 206 hardener to prolong open time. I'm sure which ever hardener I used allowed longer than 30-40 mins. Tony On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, George W. Barnes wrote: There have been some adverse comments about West System on the listandyou may want to check them out in the archives. I've been using West System for years and have never had a failure in arod,\. The only short coming is a short working time - about 25 minutes if it'sin a cool shop. I also believe there is a relatively short shelf lifeand I tend to get new resin and curing agent every six months or so. I've found the manufacturer to be very responsive to questions and Ithink very honest in their answers. The West System does not have to be heat cured and can be straightenedwith low temperatures. George Barnes /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 20 20:58:23 1997 Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:58:14 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy wugate.wustl.edu id UAA17663 Tom, Ralph,The issue with John H Byrd's article was in PF#9 May/June '91. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Ralph W Moon wrote: /***Tony wrote******/Re. twisted rods. I was reading "The Best Of The Planing Form" and Isawwhat John H Byrd wrote about using the mantle from a kern-mantleconstruction cord for rod straightening and it got me to thinking youcould use this to put the twists into the rod rather than use locks.Thenice thing here is that you could set the twist where ever you neededtheguide and you'd get a straight rod (if you know what I mean about astraight, twisted rod) at the same time. I'll have to try as soon ascan. /**Ralph wrote****/Tony, I don't understand how John Byrd 's cord system would allow youto twist the rod to the guide pattern. I have been using the lock form lot of force, particularly in the butt to make close twists. I'mwilling to learn another way if there is one. I am just wrapping a twopiece that used to be a one piece 6' twist. It was broken after twohours of use about 12" from the tip. No problem with the rod a kid raninto it. I cut it down and built a new tip, but I have no idea whateffect the ferrule is going to make on the action. I have reservationsand may be starting another 6' one piece. Ralph Moon I'm not certain how I'd approach this. I had one of those "A HA!" sort of feelings when I read the article and I'm pondering it.I suppose I'd put the splines in tip upwards and hang it all from a solid hook and suspend a heavy weight from the sleeve at the butt end. Next tothe sleeve I'd mount a vertical column with pieces of lenghts of wood and clamps. This would replace the locks or rather become the locks.Twist the weight causing the section to twist from the top down as the thinner section is going to twist faster and clamp in possition workingdown.As I see it this wont lock the twist any better than the lock method but as it's all being held verticaly should set straight. Vert Suspended Column Rod3 3Lock AÇÇ33 3Lock AÇÇ33 3Lock AÇÇ33 3Lock AÇÇ33 33 33 III Heavy weight Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from Canerods@aol.com Mon Oct 20 21:26:17 1997 Subject: Re: Another mystery rod In a message dated 97-10-20 14:55:45 EDT, you write: Tom, Sinclair's restoration book states that before the 1920's, South Bend'srodswere contracted from Winchester. They ended the contract withWinchestershortly after Edwards left in 1925. They ended up buying the Cross Rod Coin1926. Sinclair's book doesn't talk about long rod lengths - so no help there. Don Burns from jczimny@dol.net Mon Oct 20 22:31:01 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy Tony,Post cured Shell Epon of the formulation that is being referenced failsat 385 degrees F. Plenty good for rod making.John from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue Oct 21 03:27:57 1997 ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:29:27 +0100 Subject: Re: H.L.Leonard Rod At 14:43 20/10/97 EDT, you wrote:John, Because Leonard was a local craftsman here in Maine, and becauseof thelocal interest in atlantic salmon that dates back to the turn of thecentury,big Leonards turn up quite regularly here. Last spring two 10 footerssold wts)and they included detachable fighting butts. I regularly use a Leonard14footer; It a big stick and fun to cast with spey style of course. I'm notsure how a 10 footer for a relatively light line would compare to thegrilsemodels in heaver line weights. --Bob. Thank's to whoever just faxed me a copy of theLeonard rod drawing onpage67 of Sinclair'sRestoration Handbook. Yes, it's pretty well identical to that rod, with heavy butt swelling, andall the reel seat features (absolutely lovely). I'm pretty sure it's Tonkinthough, and with narrow cork rings rather than rattan cane. This chap Leonard knew how to build a rod, didn't he. This rod is waybetterthan the Hardy rods of the turn of the century. John Cooper (England) from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue Oct 21 07:15:04 1997 Subject: Re: West Epoxy 206 is the slow hardener, 205 the fast. My literature says about 25minutes toinitial set. Tony Young wrote: It's been a long time since I've used West glue, but I think I rememberusing the 206 hardener to prolong open time. I'm sure which everhardenerI used allowed longer than 30-40 mins. Tony On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, George W. Barnes wrote: There have been some adverse comments about West System on the listandyou may want to check them out in the archives. I've been using West System for years and have never had a failure in arod,\. The only short coming is a short working time - about 25 minutes ifit'sin a cool shop. I also believe there is a relatively short shelf lifeand I tend to get new resin and curing agent every six months or so. I've found the manufacturer to be very responsive to questions and Ithink very honest in their answers. The West System does not have to be heat cured and can bestraightenedwith low temperatures. George Barnes /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue Oct 21 08:35:23 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy In a message dated 97-10-20 11:32:37 EDT, you write: Tony: One way to deal with heat straightening vs. scarfing adhesive innodeless might be to scarf with Nyatex epoxy. The last tech sheet I sawcalled for quick cure at either 350df or 375df for 15 min. In a discussionof heat setting their epoxy, Alexander at Nyatex stated that within reason,the longer and hotter the heat set, the stronger Nyatex becomes, or wordstothat effect. Or perhaps better is the recommendation in Wayne's book of 3hrs @ 235df after 16 hrs air drying/curing for Nyatex. Maybe scarfingwithNyatex and glueing up the strips with whatever is the adhesive of yourchoicewould be a good procedure. If spring clips are used for scarfing, it allshould fit into an oven ok, tho string binding for splicing would probablybebetter. Nyatex literally has an hours-long working time. Best Regards,Richard Tyree from r.schiller@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 21 09:33:47 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA4669 +0000 Subject: Guide spacing John: Finally glued up a quad using the taper that you so kindly sent. It was areal B---- to get the job done since I did not pay close enough attention tothe nodes. I flamed the bamboo and had a lot of fine splintering at theedges. It is really not a very good rod. I have started the second quad ina nodless fashion. That will be much better. Could you send along the guide spacing that you found to be the best forthis taper? I have no idea about the spacing on a quad. Regards,Dick from r.schiller@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 21 09:34:57 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA5327 +0000 Subject: spiral rod Tom: After casting the spiral rod at Roscoe and buying the Lambuth book, I havedecided to try a spiral. Can you suggest a size and taper that might be good for a first try at aspiral? Thanks. Dick Schiller from Bopep@aol.com Tue Oct 21 12:16:52 1997 Subject: RE: Gorilla Glue I tried the stuff on my first-ever rod which turned out pretty nice. Ifishedthe rod HARD this summer on the frying pan in CO and it held up great...bythe way NOTHING in this world like having a truly awesome fishingexperincewith a rod of your own manufacture! But I probably won't use it againbecauseI was worried about its ability to withstand the heat of straightening.Luckily my #197 was pretty straight out of the binder! The stuff doesexpandtremendously-one fellow at Grayrock this year was thinking or trying iton ahollow built for this reason, makes me want to give it a shot sometime...So I guess I'm not sure I'd use it on a rod for use by anyone but myself.Rob Hoffhines from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Oct 21 12:54:59 1997 MAA30051 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:54:47 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id MAA21248 for ; Subject: RE: Gorilla Glue I'm using Gorilla Glue on the splices of the nodeless rod I startedlast weekend. On my first rod I used powdered Urea Formaldeyde glue,and since there were so many splices (18 strips X 4 splices each),I spent a lot of time mixing glue, mixing glue, mixing glue. Itsmuch more convenient to just squeeze it out of the bottle. And its supposed to have better heat resistance than "yellow" glues likeTitebind and Titebind II. The though of all that glue expanding with no place to go is not comfortable. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@csd.uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from santiago@ricochet.net Tue Oct 21 14:20:38 1997 Subject: Bellinger Beveler If you are interested in purchasing a Bellinger Beveler, please callMike McCoy at 503-537-1908 after 6pm Pacific Standard Time or duringtheday at 503- 531-0348 Pacific Standard Time. It is "like new" and had cut two tips. New Beveler's are $3k and Mikewill make you a deal for this one. happy planing, leo from Bopep@aol.com Tue Oct 21 15:49:49 1997 Subject: RE: Copying a Winston Another question guys:I have a taper for a teriffic 8'6" Winston 5wt. Since it is a hollow flutedrod, is it possible to end up with the same wonderful action but building itsolid? I understand that the feel in hand would be different due to theaddedheft.Rob Hoffhines from WayneCatt@aol.com Tue Oct 21 16:11:54 1997 Subject: Bill Halliday passed away One of the Grayrock locals, Bill Halliday, passed away saturday. Billhung around The Fly Factory and helped Steve out at times. Bill was alsoheavily involved with the George Mason Chapter of TU - he was in chargeof theticket sales for The Makers Rod 98. A great guy - he will be missed. from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Oct 21 16:43:51 1997 Subject: RE:Bill Halliday passed away RO>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:11:50 EDT RO>Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRO>From: Wayne Catt RO>Subject: Bill Halliday passed away RO>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bitRO>X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv10)RO>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN RO> One of the Grayrock locals, Bill Halliday, passed away saturday. BillRO>hung around The Fly Factory and helped Steve out at times. Bill wasalsoRO>heavily involved with the George Mason Chapter of TU - he was incharge of tRO>ticket sales for The Makers Rod 98. A great guy - he will be missed. Wayne, Sorry to hear that you've lost one of your friends, but I'm sure God'sgiven him a good stream to float some #18's down with no need to watch Don Burns from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Oct 21 17:24:47 1997 Subject: Re: Copying a Winston In a message dated 97-10-21 16:52:36 EDT, you write: I have a taper for a teriffic 8'6" Winston 5wt. Since it is a hollow flutedrod, is it possible to end up with the same wonderful action but buildingitsolid? I understand that the feel in hand would be different due to the addedheft. This is a job for.........Stress curves! Darryl Hayashida from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Oct 21 18:05:04 1997 Subject: Reelseat question? I've got a rod with a 0.410" butt dia. and the butt section is shorterthan the other sections - will a wood reelseat spacer hold up if ithangs off the butt by 2 3/8"? How about if I cut it down by a ~1/2"? The rod is a 4 wt - if it matters. Thx, Don B. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Oct 21 18:30:26 1997 Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:30:16 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy Richard,All these decesions to make about glue are almost enough to cause me to start filing nodes! No, not realy ;-).The easiest thing would have been to try Nyatex in the first place but I can get Shell Epon localy and this has been recomended by a few good men so I'll give it a try.I expect it to work OK but if not I'll give your recomendation a go. Thanks. Tony On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-20 11:32:37 EDT, you write: requirements of UF and resorcinol. In fact that's the reason I tried this specific glue as I'm looking for an epoxy that will handle higher heat than those I've tried, so far it's been a problem (don't know about Shell Epon yet). >> Tony: One way to deal with heat straightening vs. scarfing adhesive innodeless might be to scarf with Nyatex epoxy. The last tech sheet I sawcalled for quick cure at either 350df or 375df for 15 min. In adiscussionof heat setting their epoxy, Alexander at Nyatex stated that withinreason,the longer and hotter the heat set, the stronger Nyatex becomes, orwords tothat effect. Or perhaps better is the recommendation in Wayne's book of3hrs @ 235df after 16 hrs air drying/curing for Nyatex. Maybe scarfingwithNyatex and glueing up the strips with whatever is the adhesive of yourchoicewould be a good procedure. If spring clips are used for scarfing, it allshould fit into an oven ok, tho string binding for splicing would probablybebetter. Nyatex literally has an hours-long working time. Best Regards,Richard Tyree /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from tball@mail.portup.com Tue Oct 21 20:13:14 1997 Subject: Epon Does anyone have the address for Shell Epon? Even a telephone number. Thanks for the info on Epon, West and Gorilla glues. Tom from coopers@cyberg8t.com Tue Oct 21 21:40:33 1997 key.cyberg8t.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA13790 for Subject: More on Mold... from a long time lurker (2 yrs.) Like many before me on this list, I'm finally readyto begin building my first cane rod...I received my cane last week, and I naturallyread all the post's regarding mold infested cane.I'm not sure if Kurt Loup's inquiry was evercompletely answered on the list, but I toohave purchased cane that has interior mold (not theexterior dust). I have split three sticks, and allexhibit mold inside the nodal chambers. One stick inparticular surprised me, as it exhibited no surfacechecking, and it is a very dense culm. When Isplit it in half, it had allot of mold, not just thebrownish shallow mold I have seen on the insideof all sticks I can see into (check splits), but thedark deep penetrating stuff. The outside of all myculms had the light mold that wiped away, butI am very concerned about this interior mold.One list member mentioned that he trashed moldyculms in the past, and Mr. R,'s web pagementions he rejected culms that exhibited thistendency during his trip to China.Overall, I am very exited about getting myprojects underway, and I appreciate the goodfaith efforts on Mr. Royers behalf.I am sure his intentions are sterling, and I donot wish to take anything away from him. I amalso sure that most of my cane is usable and sound.I just wish I knew that if interior mold seriouslycompromises otherwise beautiful tonkin, or ifthis phenom. is naturally occurring in bamboo from China.T.I.A.Bill C.PS off-list rep o.k.. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Oct 21 21:54:52 1997 Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:54:34 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Epon On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Tom wrote: Does anyone have the address for Shell Epon? Even a telephone number. Thanks for the info on Epon, West and Gorilla glues. Tom Some-one on the list will have an address, but if not I contacted Shell Chemicals out of the phone book and went from there. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from ghinde@inconnect.com Tue Oct 21 22:42:44 1997 0000 (209.140.67.140) Subject: alive or not On 10/15/97 Istopped recieving ANY messages from rodmakers. I havecheckedout my end through my net server and all is well here. Did rodmakersdisband, or did your net server have a meltdown???ghindeinconnect.com from cphisey@neca.com Tue Oct 21 22:52:37 1997 Subject: Re: Epon At 09:12 PM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote:Does anyone have the address for Shell Epon? Even a telephone number. Thanks for the info on Epon, West and Gorilla glues. Tom Tom, I got the Shell Epon Resin and Epi-Cure 3140 Curing Agent fromMiller- Stephenson Chemical Company ,Danbury ,CT ph #203-791-8702.They alsohave a California ph#818-896-6086, and a Illinois ph# 708-966- 2022.Also adistibutor in Rexdale, Ontario ph#416-675-3204 for our Canadian friends.Youhave to order under your company name and they will bill you per standardterms. They stock both the Epon resin #828 and the Epi- cure 3140 CuringAgent in quarts. Charlie from cphisey@neca.com Tue Oct 21 23:02:21 1997 Subject: Re: alive or not At 09:38 PM 10/21/97 -0600, you wrote:On 10/15/97 Istopped recieving ANY messages from rodmakers. I havecheckedout my end through my net server and all is well here. Did rodmakersdisband, or did your net server have a meltdown???ghindeinconnect.com Must of been on your end ,the list is still alive and well,mail arrivingdaily. Charlie from gord@teleport.com Wed Oct 22 01:34:25 1997 Subject: Rod failure Hello! I got back a tip. My first rod. It was stepped on in a canoe in Alaska- broke pretty well! The replacement is coming along but I'm amazed bythe finish. I had used Man O'War spar and what I'm seeing is almost a completefailure of the finish. Complete is to strong - but the finish iscrinkled and flaking off in spots. The rod finish looks like an antiquestore rod. The rod had been stored, tubed, outside at Denali for 5years - I'm told down to 40 below. 40 below might be beyond the expectations of a finish but I'd like tothink my finish could handle anything. Freezer won't get that cold -anyone have any experience with long term exposure to cold? - do I needto move back to the Midwest to test? Cheers,Gord http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 22 03:06:52 1997 Subject: Re: spiral rod In a message dated 10/21/97 2:39:46 PM, you wrote: Dick - The 5 1/2 foot one piece rod at the Rodmakers web site is a goodplaceto start. If you want something longer and ferruled, I would suggest one ofthe Garrison tapers in 7 1/2 or 8 foot length. Use the Garrison guidespacing proper lock spacing. - Tom from fer@surfplanet.com Wed Oct 22 04:07:56 1997 KAA25542 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:14:25GMT Subject: Stress curves and rod action Hello everybody from Spain. I have recently joined the Rodmakers, and Iwill be very grateful if somebody could give me some information aboutStress curves. My fly fishing mate has been handcrafting bamboo fly rods Garrison based but slighty modified to get more powerful rods. But Ibelive that this method of modifying directly the taper dimensions it'snot the good one. I'm getting involved with the maths (Garrison way) ofthe cuestion and I would like to know more details about therelationship between rod action and Stress curves shape. Also wondering:once you get the apropiate shape, which are the starting values ofstress for the End of Action point? I supose it depends on total rodlenght but is there any aproximated values to start with? Thank you verymuch for your advice and hope to hear from you soon. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 22 06:16:52 1997 Subject: Re: Another mystery rod In a message dated 10/21/97 6:02:11 AM, you wrote: Thanks Don- The overall appearance of the rod, especially the Englishsnakessuggests pre 1920, but the rod doesn't look much like a Winchester, either.Iguess it will remain a mystery. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Oct 22 07:29:16 1997 Subject: Re: Reelseat question? In a message dated 10/22/97 11:46:25 AM, you wrote: Don- Assuming the spacer is about 4 ", I think you might have astrenghissue. At the least, I would turn the butt down to .375, so that thespacerretains wall thickness. If you can do it, I would suggest extending thelength of the wood spacer forward under the rear of the cork grip a fewinches for even more strength. -- Tom from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Oct 22 08:38:28 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:38:15 EDT Subject: Nodes Just for those that are interested. In the four nodeless rods I am working on I am using Tightbond II. I have basically bent the sections in half and no failures. from what I can see, it would take a hell of a lot more than fishing conditions to break one of these splices. Just my opinion.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 from gwbarnes@gwi.net Wed Oct 22 10:00:31 1997 Subject: F. E. Thomas Rod I've been contacted by a gentleman looking for the value of a 12- 1/2',Thomas Special, 3piece, salmon rod with reinforced tips. The rod has twotips with nichol silver caps for ferrules. The grip is of 1" cork rings,11 rings on the fore grip and 6 rings on the butt grip. Reel seat isslide band type. Butt cap is mushroom style. I'm not familiar with this rod and would appreciate any information thatI can forward on to the owner. George Barnesgwbarnes@gwi.net from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Oct 22 10:25:14 1997 Subject: Re: Stress curves and rod action In a message dated 97-10-22 05:11:56 EDT, you write: Hello everybody from Spain. I have recently joined the Rodmakers, and Iwill be very grateful if somebody could give me some information aboutStress curves. ************************************************************************I posted this last month, but with all the questions popping upabout stress curves, I decided to repost it. If everyone agreeswith my analysis, perhaps we should put it on the Web Page?*********************************************************************** In it's most basic use a stress curve shows you how closea split cane rod is to breaking with the weight and lengthof line you specified. Garrison believed 200,000 ouncesper square inch was a good, safe upper level. In reality you can go up to 220,000 or 230,000 without any problems. Garrison himself went up to 220,000 on his lighter rods.Garrison believed that below the 140,000 point the bamboo stopped flexing. As you get deeper into stress curves you can begin to pick out certaincharacteristics that tell you what kind of action the rod has, or will have if it hasn't been made yet. A Garrison rod, which I consider to be slow, has a well rounded "hump" near the tip and a fairly slow drop off as it goes towards the handle. Let's see if I can do this with ASCII art. || * * | * * *| * * *| * * * | * * * | *| *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ The rod that I'm always raving about, the Cattanach 7' 0"4 wt, I consider to be fairly fast. It has a stress curve like this: || * | * *| * * | * * | * * | * * *| * * * * * * *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ The blip near the handle is the Cattanach hinge, and it greatly enhances roll casting. Don't forget to put it in. I did and the rod I made was a terrible roll caster. It isn't as necessary on longer rods, but on shorter rods it's definitely needed. A Paul Young Para 15, what is described as a parabolic action looks like this: || * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| * * * *| *| *| *| *| *_*______________________________________________ Looking at this rod, and never having cast one, I would guess that it would feel fairly slow, due to the enhanced bending near the handle, but able to throw a lot of line, due to the stiff mid section. I would also guess that it could roll cast really well. There are as many variations of stress curves as there are rodmakers. This covers the slow, fast and parabolic actions. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Oct 22 11:56:47 1997 Subject: Re: More on Mold... It's hard for me to make a judgement, not having seen themold on the Royer cane, but truth be told, I've had mold onthe cane I got from Demarest. The mold did penetrate fairlydeep from the pith side, but it all planed away by the time Igot close to final size of the splines. I constantly bend mysplines as a quality check as I plane to see if any of thembreak, and I've had a few crack or take severe sets. This isnormal. I'd rather have them reveal their tendency to breakbefore I glue them up. I haven't dealt with hundreds of culmsas some on this list have, but unless Demarest was giving methe lowest of the dregs, mold is fairly common on Tonkin cane. Darryl Hayashida from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Oct 22 12:20:38 1997 Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy Tony:With Epon failure at 385df per John Zimny, bet it works out ok. Let usknowabout it when done. Thanks and Regards,Richard from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Oct 22 12:47:54 1997 Subject: More on Stress Curves Some basic information on stress curves: The X axis is rod length, with the tip on the left and thehandle on the right. The Y axis is ounces per square inch. This sounds likea pressure, as in psi, but it is really a stress measurement.The square inch refers to the area of the cross section ofthe rod at that point. The higher the stress curve goes, the more the rod will bend, taking the curve as a whole. I say this because a reading of 200,000 near the tip, where the rod is thin in diameter is going to bend more than a reading of 200,000 near the handle where the bamboo is thicker. But, if you compare a whole stress curve of one rod to the whole stress curve of another rod, the rod witha higher reading at the same point along the length will bend moreat that point. A stress curve means nothing if you can't relate it to something.The only way you can start to see how a stress curve can helpyou is to graph up the stress curves of real rods and cast them.In my case I didn't have a bunch of rods to try. I had to makethem. I now have a bunch of experimental rods lying around,8 at last count. I was able to sell a few of the better experiments.I was also lucky in accidentally making a rod I really like ( a Cattanach taper) on my third attempt, and being able to contrast that to a rod I really didn't like (a Garrison taper). Three things I have found really help me in rod making. Being ableto split a culm to 32 strips top of the culm, 24 bottom of the culm.Being able to sharpen my plane irons really sharp, and understandingstress curves. Darryl Hayashida from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Oct 22 14:57:17 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Some basic information on stress curves: The X axis is rod length, with the tip on the left and thehandle on the right. The Y axis is ounces per square inch. This sounds likea pressure, as in psi, but it is really a stress measurement.The square inch refers to the area of the cross section ofthe rod at that point. The higher the stress curve goes, the more the rod will bend,taking the curve as a whole. I say this because a reading of200,000 near the tip, where the rod is thin in diameter is goingto bend more than a reading of 200,000 near the handle wherethe bamboo is thicker. But, if you compare a whole stress curveof one rod to the whole stress curve of another rod, the rod witha higher reading at the same point along the length will bend moreat that point. A stress curve means nothing if you can't relate it to something.The only way you can start to see how a stress curve can helpyou is to graph up the stress curves of real rods and cast them.In my case I didn't have a bunch of rods to try. I had to makethem. I now have a bunch of experimental rods lying around,8 at last count. I was able to sell a few of the better experiments.I was also lucky in accidentally making a rod I really like ( aCattanach taper) on my third attempt, and being able to contrastthat to a rod I really didn't like (a Garrison taper). Three things I have found really help me in rod making. Being ableto split a culm to 32 strips top of the culm, 24 bottom of the culm.Being able to sharpen my plane irons really sharp, and understandingstress curves. Darryl, I think you've posted this information before, but how in the world doyou split out 32 and 24 strips, top and bottom? I know lots of newbiesout there like me who do well to get eighteen. Any enlightenment wouldbe appreciated. Harry Boyd from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed Oct 22 15:31:57 1997 Subject: RE:Rod failure RO>I had used Man O'War spar and what I'm seeing is almost a completeRO>failure of the finish. Complete is to strong - but the finish isRO>crinkled and flaking off in spots. The rod finish looks like an antiqueRO>store rod. The rod had been stored, tubed, outside at Denali for 5RO>years - I'm told down to 40 below. RO>40 below might be beyond the expectations of a finish but I'd like toRO>think my finish could handle anything. Freezer won't get that cold - RO>anyone have any experience with long term exposure to cold? - do IneedRO>to move back to the Midwest to test? Sounds a bit extreme to me - I wonder how you'd look if you were kept at-40 for 5 years? Don B. from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Wed Oct 22 16:56:34 1997 +0200 (CEST) ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:50:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Stress curves and rod action ----------From: SalarFly@aol.com Subject: Re: Stress curves and rod actionDate: 22. oktober 1997 16:24 In a message dated 97-10-22 05:11:56 EDT, you write: Hello everybody from Spain. I have recently joined the Rodmakers, and Iwill be very grateful if somebody could give me some informationaboutStress curves. ************************************************************************I posted this last month, but with all the questions popping upabout stress curves, I decided to repost it. If everyone agreeswith my analysis, perhaps we should put it on the Web Page? *********************************************************************** Sir Darryl I wholeheartedly endorse putting Your explanation re stress curves on theWeb Page. I'll go even further: Since You have the knowledge and theability to explain complicated matters in terms, understandable tolaymen,please take Your time, if possible, to widen Your article in order to makeit even more informative. This I propose for the following two reasons: A: It is my belief that theinterest in making Splitcane fishing rods is growing, and rapidly too.Perhaps this is an illfounded conviction, but I seem to get in contact withmore and more people changing from carbon to cane. B: To me the taper ofarod is the single factor most decisive to the behaviour of the rod. Typesof glue, different ways of heat treating and spacing of guides are lessimportant. Obviously I may be wrong, but I'll stick to this convictionuntill otherwise convinced. I am not qualified to question Your analysis, but if someone else have adifferent opinion, please come forward. I for one will look forward to yetanother debate. Let us have it, so that when the smoke has risen, theoutcome will be an article for the Web Page, to be read, digested and USED primary objective for us amateur rod builders, or have I gor it wrongagain? Best Regards Carsten Jorgensen from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Oct 22 19:10:34 1997 Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:10:25 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: West Re: West System Epoxy On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: Tony:With Epon failure at 385df per John Zimny, bet it works out ok. Let usknowabout it when done. Thanks and Regards,Richard Barring some unforseen event I'll be binding the splines in a day or two so it wont be long till I see. I'll let you know. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Oct 23 01:00:23 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-22 16:09:32 EDT, you write: I think you've posted this information before, but how in the world doyou split out 32 and 24 strips, top and bottom? I know lots of newbiesout there like me who do well to get eighteen. Any enlightenment wouldbe appreciated. All it takes is practice. I started trying to split this fine when Wayne Cattanach wrote on this list that he could split a culm to 32 strips.I don't think it's all that unusual to be able to do this. How about asurvey? Let's hear from the other guys how fine they can split a culm. Darryl Hayashida from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Oct 23 10:36:26 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:36:20 EDT Subject: test disregardJon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 (800) 836- 7558 from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Thu Oct 23 11:53:38 1997 Subject: Re: H.L.Leonard Rod John-Marty Keane, a used tackle dealer here in the US, has a 10' Leonard3piece,3 tip circa 1898 rod in his current catalog. Two of the tips areoriginal and are 11/2" and 51/2" short, the third tip is a laternon-original addition. Rod is listed in very good condition . The askingprice is $290.00. I'd guess that your Leonard is probably in the same priceballpark. Dennis Higham from bamboomail@bamboohw.com Thu Oct 23 12:39:57 1997 1997 Subject: Notes on moldy bamboo If I may throw in my two cents. Pursuant to the mold issue, it mayor may not pose a problem. A light dusting of mold should not affect the quality of the power fibres. In China and again in Seattle, I sorted through the poles and selected poles void of mold. In China, I was able to sort through the poles one by one,in Seattle, I simply opened one end of each bundle and peered inside heavy mold and I would not suggest using these poles for building anything. While in China, I spent several days working with poles to learn what surface characteristics meant to the fibre under the enamel. A dark mold as opposed to a lighter colour mold usually signified more significant damage to the interior of the pole. If the exterior of a pole is clean and mold or heavy mold is found inside the cane, there must be an opening somewhere. If every internode exhibits mold, my guess is that pole is one of the few which we knocked out the nodes in China to drain the pole of rainwater. This may not ruin the pole, it may be that only the pith is adversely affected. If no mold or discolouration is found in the power fibres, the pole is probably okay. In any event, if you have concerns about the integrity of a pole, test some of the material. I would not suggest using a questionablepole for a flyrod, your time is too valuable to waste it making a rod from inferior bamboo, but do test the material yourself. I have quickly come to realize that of the dozens of people who have bought my poles, there are a dozen different opinions on the quality of the material. Take what you are told with a grain of salt, bamboo is a solvable mystery and each person should learn what works and what doesn't for themselves. If the splits you produce from otherwisemoldy bamboo look and feel good, they probably are good. I did not import moldy bamboo, any mold you find is relatively young and it may not signify a ruined piece of cane. I am not in the business of selling useless material. If the bamboo anyone bought from me is good for nothing more than firewood or bongs than I should not be paid full price material. Also, in terms of check splitting bamboo. I have no idea why the bamboo should not be split its entire length. Bamboo cracks from heat (the air in the internodes expands and breaks through the walls) and dryness. Chances are, no matter where you live in North America, it is dryer, in terms of relative humidity, than Southern China. Don't take a chance, split the entire pole. Andy Royer andyr@bamboohw.com(206) 463-3771 PS: I still have "A" and "B" poles left. The word is that the "B" poles are fine for people who flame their cane. from shane.m.hubbs@vanderbilt.edu Thu Oct 23 12:52:06 1997 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:48:57 CDT Subject: Re: Notes on moldy bamboo Dear Sir, How much of the "A" cane do you have left and what types. Thanks Shane M. Hubbs from d-deloach1@ti.com Thu Oct 23 13:34:58 1997 with ESMTP id NAA22862 for ; Thu, 23 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id XQSJBTAO; Thu,23 Oct 1997 13:34:20 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves Sir D, your Lordship Do you use the "knife in vise" technique that I've read about? Please give us a short treatise on your technique. I have enough troublesplitting to 24 strips! ThanksDr. D ------------------Original text In a message dated 97-10-22 16:09:32 EDT, you write: I think you've posted this information before, but how in the world doyou split out 32 and 24 strips, top and bottom? I know lots of newbiesout there like me who do well to get eighteen. Any enlightenment wouldbe appreciated. All it takes is practice. I started trying to split this fine when Wayne Cattanach wrote on this list that he could split a culm to 32 strips.I don't think it's all that unusual to be able to do this. How about asurvey? Let's hear from the other guys how fine they can split a culm. Darryl Hayashida from frankc@webspan.net Thu Oct 23 14:40:26 1997 Subject: Re: Notes on moldy bamboo ADMINISTRATOR wrote: If I may throw in my two cents. Pursuant to the mold issue, it mayor may not pose a problem. A light dusting of mold should notaffect the quality of the power fibres. In China and again inSeattle, I sorted through the poles and selected poles void ofmold. In China, I was able to sort through the poles one by one,in Seattle, I simply opened one end of each bundle and peered inside heavy mold and I would not suggest using these poles for buildinganything. While in China, I spent several days working with polesto learn what surface characteristics meant to the fibre under theenamel. A dark mold as opposed to a lighter colour mold usuallysignified more significant damage to the interior of the pole. If the exterior of a pole is clean and mold or heavy mold is found insidethe cane, there must be an opening somewhere. If every internodeexhibits mold, my guess is that pole is one of the few which weknocked out the nodes in China to drain the pole of rainwater.This may not ruin the pole, it may be that only the pith is adverselyaffected. If no mold or discolouration is found in the power fibres,the pole is probably okay. In any event, if you have concerns about the integrity of a pole,test some of the material. I would not suggest using a questionablepole for a flyrod, your time is too valuable to waste it making a rod from inferior bamboo, but do test the material yourself. I havequickly come to realize that of the dozens of people who havebought my poles, there are a dozen different opinions on the qualityof the material. Take what you are told with a grain of salt, bamboois a solvable mystery and each person should learn what works andwhat doesn't for themselves. If the splits you produce from otherwise moldy bamboo look and feel good, they probably are good. I did notimport moldy bamboo, any mold you find is relatively young and it maynot signify a ruined piece of cane. I am not in the business ofsellinguseless material. If the bamboo anyone bought from me is good fornothing more than firewood or bongs than I should not be paid fullprice replacementmaterial. Also, in terms of check splitting bamboo. I have no idea why thebambooshould not be split its entire length. Bamboo cracks from heat (theair inthe internodes expands and breaks through the walls) and dryness.Chances are, no matter where you live in North America, it is dryer,interms of relative humidity, than Southern China. Don't take a chance, split the entire pole. Andy Royerandyr@bamboohw.com(206) 463-3771 PS: I still have "A" and "B" poles left. The word is that the "B"poles arefine for people who flame their cane. ANDYI HAVE WIPED THE EXTERIOR WITH DENATURED ALCOHOL AND REMOVEDWHATEVERLIGHT MOLD EXISTED. ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT YET SPLIT THE POLES YET, ICANSEE WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE DARK MOLD ON THE PITH. IS THERE ANY WAY TOTREAT THIS WITH A SPRAY OF A MOLD KILLING SOLUTION? IS THERE ASOLUTIONWHICH WOULD BE EFFECTIVE AND NOT EFFECT THE CANE? MY EXPERIENCE WITH CANE IS LIMITED BUT MY SHIPMENT LOOKS GOOD TO ME- VERY LITTLE WATER MARKING OR WORM HOLES - ONE GROWERS MARK. ALL20PIECES WERE STRAIGHT. THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS. FRANK from RHD360@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Thu Oct 23 16:07:05 1997 V2R3)with BSMTP id 4826; Thu, 23 Oct 97 17:06:45 EDT MAINE.MAINE.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6401; Thu, 23 Oct1997 17:06:45 -0400Subject: Re: F. E. Thomas Rod CMDGeorge, Sounds like an interesting rod. As I understand it, salmon rodsweremade in several models but those over 10.5' were special orders. I'd guessavalue of 250-300 ish. Last spring two Leonards, both 10' grilse modelsandboth in fishable condition sold for 350 and 275 respectively. One had 3tips.(At the Morrill Auction in Gray, Maine). Probably a Thomas would bevalued similarly in these larger rods. Have you ever built anything over9'?Bob. from gwbarnes@gwi.net Thu Oct 23 17:04:56 1997 Subject: Re: F. E. Thomas Rod Thanks for the information. Have not done anything over 9'. Interestinglyenoughthe information is for one of your "neighbors" in Bangor. George Robert Milardo wrote: CMDGeorge, Sounds like an interesting rod. As I understand it, salmon rodsweremade in several models but those over 10.5' were special orders. I'dguess avalue of 250-300 ish. Last spring two Leonards, both 10' grilse modelsandboth in fishable condition sold for 350 and 275 respectively. One had 3tips.(At the Morrill Auction in Gray, Maine). Probably a Thomas would bevalued similarly in these larger rods. Have you ever built anything over9'?Bob. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Oct 23 18:32:59 1997 Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:32:51 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves Daryl,are you making your rods nodeless? I can get 30-32 no problem at all on short pieces without nodes but it's a bit trickier on full lenght strips. Tony On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Don DeLoach wrote: Sir D, your Lordship Do you use the "knife in vise" technique that I've read about? Please give us a short treatise on your technique. I have enough troublesplitting to 24 strips! ThanksDr. D ------------------Original text From: SalarFly@aol.com, on 10/23/97 1:04 PM:In a message dated 97-10-22 16:09:32 EDT, you write: I think you've posted this information before, but how in the worlddoyou split out 32 and 24 strips, top and bottom? I know lots ofnewbiesout there like me who do well to get eighteen. Any enlightenmentwouldbe appreciated. All it takes is practice. I started trying to split this fine when Wayne Cattanach wrote on this list that he could split a culm to 32 strips.I don't think it's all that unusual to be able to do this. How about asurvey? Let's hear from the other guys how fine they can split a culm. Darryl Hayashida /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from bc940@freenet.uchsc.EDU Thu Oct 23 18:49:50 1997 RAA22874; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:49:38 -0600 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-22 16:09:32 EDT, you write: I think you've posted this information before, but how in the worlddoyou split out 32 and 24 strips, top and bottom? I know lots of newbiesout there like me who do well to get eighteen. Any enlightenmentwouldbe appreciated. All it takes is practice. I started trying to split this fine when Wayne Cattanach wrote on this list that he could split a culm to 32 strips.I don't think it's all that unusual to be able to do this. How about asurvey? Let's hear from the other guys how fine they can split a culm. Darryl Hayashida Darryl, I agree. It is not a problem to split the tip section into 32. I havedone that from the first culm with no problems. It helps to keep in mindthat splitting a piece in half each time helps to keep the splits even. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colordado -- from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Thu Oct 23 19:22:53 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:22:39 EDT Subject: Forms A quick couple of questions: 1) Armbruster's forms have a section that have sets every 2" or so. Does anyone know if Lon's do? 2) I am three washers away from finishing my binder...anyway, a guy over at Cornell who teaches in the metal shop thought he could get some students to make binders out of aluminum. He thought I could buy them from the students at cost (75 or so). I think there are people out there like me who would of bought one if it weren't so damn expensive. Should I bother following up or is it a waste of time?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277- 9781 (800) 836-7558 from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Oct 23 19:56:21 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-23 14:40:33 EDT, you write: Do you use the "knife in vise" technique that I've read about? Please give us a short treatise on your technique. I have enough troublesplitting to 24 strips! No, I don't use a knife at all, except for the first three splits, where Iuse a meat cleaver and rubber mallet. It's one of those things that'shard to write down, but easy to see if you watch. propagate the split along the length by grasping the strips, one in each hand, close to the split and levering my thumbs against each other, I slowly move the split down the middle. When the split starts to wander, I bend the unsplit portion of the strip in the appropriatedirection. If the split has wandered to the left, the strip has to be bentto the left, so that the split will go to the right. In other words the splitwill go towards the side that is stretched, away from the side that iscompressed. Like I said before, all it takes is practice, and with asacrificial culm or two anyone can split a culm to 32. Darryl Hayashida from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Oct 23 20:35:01 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves If the split has wandered to the left, the strip has to be bentto the left, so that the split will go to the right. In other words the splitwill go towards the side that is stretched, away from the side that iscompressed. Like I said before, all it takes is practice, and with asacrificial culm or two anyone can split a culm to 32. Darryl, When you talk about bending the unsplit portion of the strip are youlevering it against something as you continue to split? Regards, Steve from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Oct 23 23:28:00 1997 AAA13542 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:27:34 - Subject: Was I Off the List?? I haven't seen any rod maker messages for 3 days. Have re-subscribed andhope this gets me back on the list. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Oct 24 00:08:34 1997 Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:08:24 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Was I Off the List?? On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, ted john knott wrote: I haven't seen any rod maker messages for 3 days. Have re- subscribedandhope this gets me back on the list. Looks like you made it. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from SealRite@aol.com Fri Oct 24 07:37:02 1997 Subject: Re: alive or not It did the same to me a while back. You have to send the messageUnsubscribeRODMAKER , wait a day and then resubscribe from SealRite@aol.com Fri Oct 24 07:41:56 1997 Subject: Re: Reelseat question? I would try and extend it and reinforce it by using a brass or aluminumtubeof slightly larger diameter that extends up inside the cork grip and insidethe reel seat.The other option is to scarf a left over piece of bamboo on to the end oftheexisting section. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Oct 24 09:19:18 1997 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: splitting Being far from what you would call an expert, I was able to split myculms into 24 pieces right from the fist one that I did. What Sir D saidis very true splitting in half is quiet possibly the easiest way to gobut I found what really helped me was to measure the circumference ofthe whole culm, and width of the pieces there of, and put pencil marksat each node where I wanted the split to go and adjusted the splits sothey intersected those marks. I used a bamboo froe, held it in my righthand and the bamboo in my left hand with the thumb along the edge. Ifthe split wandered away from me I applied pressure outward with mythumb and bent the end towards me in a arc, if the split ran towards meI bent the piece in a arc away from me. Having the pencil marks to aimat really helped and kept me from having to thin of strips or notenough. I figured that a 2" culm is 6" in circumference and should giveup 24 strips .250" (1/4") wide. I was even able to split right beside aleaf node and have a usable strip after the node was planed away. PatrickPearls of wisdom: Money can't buy love, but it can rent a closeimitation! from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 24 10:03:20 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-24 04:30:09 EDT, you write: Daryl,are you making your rods nodeless? I can get 30-32 no problem at all on short pieces without nodes but it's a bit trickier on full lenght strips. Nope, haven't made a nodeless rod yet. Darryl from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Oct 24 10:36:55 1997 Subject: Re: Reelseat question? RO>Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRO>From: SealRite@aol.com RO>Subject: Re: Reelseat question? RO>I would try and extend it and reinforce it by using a brass or aluminumtubeRO>of slightly larger diameter that extends up inside the cork grip andinsideRO>the reel seat.RO>The other option is to scarf a left over piece of bamboo on to the endof thRO>existing section. Thanks for the reply, I guess I could find some 7/16" brass tubing andmaybe shimmed inside the floating hollow section with 3/8" tubing tohelp beef it up. I don't know how to scarf 0.410" cane - that's a bit beyond the range ofmy scarf block! Don from fer@surfplanet.com Fri Oct 24 11:14:09 1997 RAA23498 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:20:21GMT Subject: Min. values on stress curves Thank you all for your advices about stress curves. I still have somedoubts though: I have understood from some of your past messages thataround 140.000 f(b) value is about where the rod stops flexing. So howcome there are some tapers (like Chris Bogart's "Yellow Rose") whichstress curves values are all the time below that point? Fernando Rada. from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 24 13:15:22 1997 Subject: Re: Min. values on stress curves In a message dated 97-10-24 12:16:38 EDT, you write: Thank you all for your advices about stress curves. I still have somedoubts though: I have understood from some of your past messages thataround 140.000 f(b) value is about where the rod stops flexing. So howcome there are some tapers (like Chris Bogart's "Yellow Rose") whichstress curves values are all the time below that point? I wouldn't take that value as Gospel. That's why I wrote "Garrisonbelieved...." in my original post. Same with the maximum stress.You will find some tapers going to 300,000. Just as an aside, Ifthe values were all below 140,000 I would try a heavier line weightto see how it casts, or perhaps the maker intended it to cast a longer line than the fellow who calculated the stress curve ( longerline out = more weight = higher stress numbers). Darryl Hayashida Darryl from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Oct 24 13:16:22 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Forms Jon Lintvet wrote: A quick couple of questions: 1) Armbruster's forms have a section that have sets every 2" or so.Does anyone know if Lon's do? 2) I am three washers away from finishing my binder...anyway, a guyover at Cornell who teaches in the metal shop thought he could getsome students to make binders out of aluminum. He thought I couldbuy them from the students at cost (75 or so). I think there arepeople out there like me who would of bought one if it weren't sodamn expensive. Should I bother following up or is it a waste oftime?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277- 9781(800) 836-7558 Jon, I doubt I'm the only one, and I'd sure be interested! Harry Boyd from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 24 13:18:17 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-24 13:11:06 EDT, you write: When you talk about bending the unsplit portion of the strip are youlevering it against something as you continue to split? Yes I am. I clamp two c-clamps upsidedown to the edge of a tableand use the handles sticking up to bend the unsplit portion in thecorrect direction. Darryl Hayashida from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Oct 24 13:18:44 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 97-10-23 14:40:33 EDT, you write: Do you use the "knife in vise" technique that I've read about? Please give us a short treatise on your technique. I have enough troublesplitting to 24 strips! No, I don't use a knife at all, except for the first three splits, where Iuse a meat cleaver and rubber mallet. It's one of those things that'shard to write down, but easy to see if you watch. propagate the split along the length by grasping the strips, one ineach hand, close to the split and levering my thumbs against eachother, I slowly move the split down the middle. When the split startsto wander, I bend the unsplit portion of the strip in the appropriatedirection. If the split has wandered to the left, the strip has to be bentto the left, so that the split will go to the right. In other words the splitwill go towards the side that is stretched, away from the side that iscompressed. Like I said before, all it takes is practice, and with asacrificial culm or two anyone can split a culm to 32. Darryl Hayashida Sir Darryl, Thanks for the info. You really do seem to ahve a gift for making yourthoughts known in writing. Ever done any writing professionally? I'mabout to start on my second culm. from this one I hope to really builda rod rather than just practice. Good info like you provide is not onlyinteresting but helpful! Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Oct 24 13:30:51 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-24 14:22:56 EDT, you write: Thanks for the info. You really do seem to ahve a gift for makingyourthoughts known in writing. Ever done any writing professionally? I'mabout to start on my second culm. from this one I hope to really builda rod rather than just practice. Good info like you provide is not onlyinteresting but helpful! Yes I have, but it was when I worked for a major oil company, and Iwas doing paleoclimate research. I was actually trying to figure outwhat the climate was like in the Jurassic, if you can believe that.I had a few articles published, but you would have had to have beenin the same field to have seen any of them. Darryl Hayashida from d-deloach1@ti.com Fri Oct 24 13:56:46 1997 with ESMTP id NAA01757 for ; Fri, 24 Oct dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id JKSGCLAM; Fri,24 Oct 1997 13:56:11 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Spray Finishes Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing orrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane today andhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Fri Oct 24 14:56:40 1997 MAA29794 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:54:54 R8.00.00) Subject: Re:Forms --simple boundary Jon are binders Milward or Garrison type. ____________________Reply Separator____________________Subject: FormsAuthor: A quick couple of questions: 1) Armbruster's forms have a section that have sets every 2" or so. Does anyone know if Lon's do? 2) I am three washers away from finishing my binder...anyway, a guy over at Cornell who teaches in the metal shop thought he could get some students to make binders out of aluminum. He thought I could buy them from the students at cost (75 or so). I think there are people out there like me who would of bought one if it weren't so damn expensive. Should I bother following up or is it a waste of time?Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277- 9781 (800) 836-7558 --simple boundary (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00); Thu, 23 Oct 97 17:30:45 GMT intergate.sduhsd.k12.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id RAA17544 for with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:22:39 EDT Subject: Forms --simple boundary-- from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Fri Oct 24 15:19:28 1997 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes At 13:56 24/10/97 -0700, Don wrote:Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing orrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane todayand hadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don Don, I've seen rods sprayed with Varathane - came out OK - certainly betterthanthe brush/finger painting I've seen on some.Winston sprays their rods and the finish is great. They use hermaticallysealed rooms, air filters and a host of other things to get it lint free.Likley beyond most basement builders. Don from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Fri Oct 24 15:52:35 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:52:29 EDT ; Fri, 24 Oct 199716:52:18 -0400 Subject: RE: Forms =_NextPart_000_01BCE09D.30845F00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE09D.30845F00 Silly me. The binders are straight out of Cattanach's book, so that wouldbe Garrison style.If anyone has anymore question why don't you e-mail me off the list so wedon't take up the bandwith. Thanks.Jon -----Original Message----- Subject: Re:Forms Jon are binders Milward or Garrison type. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE09D.30845F00 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE09D.30845F00-- from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Fri Oct 24 17:07:56 1997 gateus.meissner-wurst.com via smap (3.2) with SMTP id AAA124; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:12:37 -0500 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000E82A; Fri, 24 Oct 9717:36:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes --IMA.Boundary.016237778 I seem to recall that Dave LeClair successfully applies a spray finish to his rods... I think he posted something about it in the past couple months. I have not seen a post from him in a long while... so I don't know if he's active on the list at this time. You might be able to pick up his address out of the archives. On another note: Did anyone respond to that request for a way to kill interior mold without damaging the cane? (I can't remember the originator...) Would denatured alcohol work??? I ended up with three moldy (interior) poles in my bundle... I won't have time to plane away the moldy pith for a few more weeks. Will this stuff get any deeper into the fibers? Thanks!Eck ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Spray FinishesAuthor: Don DeLoach at SMTP_Gateway Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing or rubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane today andhad to ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don --IMA.Boundary.016237778 headers" ccgate.us.meissner-wurst.com with SMTP(IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0000E7F6; Fri, 24 Oct 9714:29:08-0500 with ESMTP id AAA247 for ;Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:04:49 -0500 14:54:58 wurst.com viasmap (3.2) withESMTP id NAA01757 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 199713:56:12 dpcs4.itg.ti.com (TI SMTPMail MTA v1.0.9.5) with SMTP id JKSGCLAM; Fri,24 Oct1997 13:56:11 -0600 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: Spray Finishes --IMA.Boundary.016237778-- from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Fri Oct 24 17:16:04 1997 (CEST) vip.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA05251 for; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:10:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Spray Finishes ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: Spray FinishesDate: 24. oktober 1997 21:56 Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing orrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane todayandhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don Don I use a boat varnish, thinnable with turpentine. First two coats with abrush, and then spray two to three times with an airbrush. For thesprayingI use half varnish, half turpetine. Brushing gives the "thick" layer,airbrushing gives, after flattening, an even glossy finish, which I seemnot to be able to achive when only brushing. This system suits me fine. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri Oct 24 17:29:44 1997 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes Don, I have been spraying my rods for years. I spray them with an airbrush.I put on three coats, lightly sanding the first and second coat. The finalcoat isleft as is. from my customers comments, they like the finish. It comes outlike glass.I use a polyurathane finish on the blanks and varnish the silk with sparvarnish.I've tried dipping and brushing but, for me spraying is the way to go. Dave LeClairThe Fly & Rod Room from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:16:52 1997 Subject: Re: alive or not In a message dated 97-10-24 08:40:53 EDT, you write: Hello:You might try resubscribing soon after you have sent the unsub msg,therebysaving the days wait. Have done so with success.RTyree from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri Oct 24 20:17:34 1997 Subject: Re: More on Stress Curves In a message dated 97-10-24 04:30:57 EDT, you write: All it takes is practice. I started trying to split this fine when Wayne Cattanach wrote on this list that he could split a culm to 32 strips.I don't think it's all that unusual to be able to do this. How about asurvey? Let's hear from the other guys how fine they can split a culm. Darryl Hayashida Darryl: About the best I have been able to do is split to 3/16", butnormally stop at .20". Attempts at smaller than 3/16" have not produceduseable strips. I split by piercing the cane at each node and betweennodesand running the splits together, but will try your method as it soundsfasterand more sure. Thanks for the description.Regards,Richard Tyree from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Oct 25 08:50:10 1997 ns.wzrd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10234 for Subject: Re: Spray Finishes At 11:04 PM 10/24/97 +0100, you wrote: ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: Spray FinishesDate: 24. oktober 1997 21:56 Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing orrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane todayandhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don Don I use a boat varnish, thinnable with turpentine. First two coats with abrush, and then spray two to three times with an airbrush. For thesprayingI use half varnish, half turpetine. Brushing gives the "thick" layer,airbrushing gives, after flattening, an even glossy finish, which I seemnot to be able to achive when only brushing. This system suits me fine. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen Carsten? Do you do this with the guides and wraps on? -Doug from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 25 11:29:12 1997 ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Spray Finishes While we are on the subject of spraying, has anyone tried automotivefinish? There are a wide variety from laquer to acrylic enamel. Someprobably orange peel to badly for rod finish but the others...? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:41 AM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote:At 11:04 PM 10/24/97 +0100, you wrote: ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: Spray FinishesDate: 24. oktober 1997 21:56 Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushing orrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane todayandhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don Don I use a boat varnish, thinnable with turpentine. First two coats with abrush, and then spray two to three times with an airbrush. For thesprayingI use half varnish, half turpetine. Brushing gives the "thick" layer,airbrushing gives, after flattening, an even glossy finish, which I seemnot to be able to achive when only brushing. This system suits me fine. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen Carsten? Do you do this with the guides and wraps on? -Doug from mathieu@compmore.net Sat Oct 25 11:52:34 1997 MAA29768 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:39:44 via SMTP by mail.compmore.net, id smtpd029753; Sat Oct 25 12:39:361997 Subject: (no subject) I am new to the craft of building rods can anyone tell me where I canget planing boards, or do you have to find a good machine shop to getthem to build them. ThanksJohn from jczimny@dol.net Sat Oct 25 12:41:15 1997 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes Onis Cogburn wrote: While we are on the subject of spraying, has anyone tried automotivefinish? There are a wide variety from laquer to acrylic enamel. Someprobably orange peel to badly for rod finish but the others...? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 09:41 AM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote:At 11:04 PM 10/24/97 +0100, you wrote: ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: Spray FinishesDate: 24. oktober 1997 21:56 Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushingorrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthanetoday andhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. Don Don I use a boat varnish, thinnable with turpentine. First two coats with abrush, and then spray two to three times with an airbrush. For thesprayingI use half varnish, half turpetine. Brushing gives the "thick" layer,airbrushing gives, after flattening, an even glossy finish, which I seemnot to be able to achive when only brushing. This system suits me fine. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen Carsten? Do you do this with the guides and wraps on? -Doug Yes, I have and the one I used worked well. But, Most are toxic and oneneeds a professional spray booth in order to use them. Also, mostformulations require the addition of a plasticizer order to make themwork for rod. Most are inherently brittle.John ZimnyJ from c.max.j@vip.cybercity.dk Sat Oct 25 13:57:33 1997 (CEST) ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:57:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Spray Finishes ----------From: Douglas P. Easton Subject: Re: Spray FinishesDate: 25. oktober 1997 14:41 At 11:04 PM 10/24/97 +0100, you wrote: ----------From: Don DeLoach Subject: Spray FinishesDate: 24. oktober 1997 21:56 Has anyone tried spraying their rods as opposed to dipping, brushingorrubbing? I saw a can of spray Deftthane and also spray Varthane todayandhadto ask. So lets hear some opinions! Dr. DonDon I use a boat varnish, thinnable with turpentine. First two coats with abrush, and then spray two to three times with an airbrush. For thesprayingI use half varnish, half turpetine. Brushing gives the "thick" layer,airbrushing gives, after flattening, an even glossy finish, which I seemnot to be able to achive when only brushing. This system suits me fine. Best regards Carsten Jorgensen Carsten? Do you do this with the guides and wraps on? -Doug Doug I brush/spray before mounting the guides. Never liked the idea of applyingvarnish onto the guides, as it makes the line shoot slower. The idea ofcleaning the guides with turpentine does not appeal to me either. Carsten from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sat Oct 25 14:09:06 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:09:00 EDT ; Sat, 25 Oct 199715:09:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Spray Finishes =_NextPart_000_01BCE157.FF073CC0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE157.FF073CC0 That is how I restored a rod last year. It was only for display so I =only went with one coat to save time, but it looked great. Dave, do you =thin the varnish at all or spray it straight out of thee can? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spray Finishes Don, I have been spraying my rods for years. I spray them with an air =brush.I put on three coats, lightly sanding the first and second coat. The =finalcoat isleft as is. from my customers comments, they like the finish. It comes =outlike glass.I use a polyurathane finish on the blanks and varnish the silk with sparvarnish.I've tried dipping and brushing but, for me spraying is the way to go. Dave LeClairThe Fly & Rod Room ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE157.FF073CC0 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE157.FF073CC0-- from penr0295@uidaho.edu Sun Oct 26 01:43:40 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id XAA24736 for ; doing -bs Subject: Steel planing form website I have finished an illustrated how-to site for making steel planingforms. It is set up on four pages, the first being at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/forms.htm Thanks go to Tom Smithwick for having supplied me with a lot of thetechnical information when I was making my first set of forms. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Sun Oct 26 05:16:091997 1997 11:16:03 UT 03:16:00 -0800 Subject: Line weight for PHY Midge Subject: Time: 6:02 AMOFFICE MEMO Line weight for PHY Midge Date: 10/26/97 What is the line weight that produced the stress curve for the Young 6'3"Midge in the taper archives? Thanks. --Rich from RICHARD.A.MARGIOTTA@cpmx.mail.saic.com Sun Oct 26 07:41:101997 1997 13:41:02 UT 05:41:05 -0800 Subject: Stress Plots in Taper Archi Subject: Time: 8:23 AMOFFICE MEMO Stress Plots in Taper Archives Date: 10/26/97 How many feet of line is used to produce the stress plots? Thanks. --Rich from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sun Oct 26 09:46:55 1997 Subject: Line weight for PHY Midge Rich-I don't know who supplied the taper for the PHY midge but the 6'3" midgeisusually listed as a 4wt. Dennis from gcjones@primary.net Sun Oct 26 12:23:16 1997 Subject: Re: Steel planing form website CCB3BCF74815D0A8868F2427" --------------CCB3BCF74815D0A8868F2427 Thomas Penrose wrote: I have finished an illustrated how-to site for making steel planingforms. It is set up on four pages, the first being at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/forms.htm Thanks go to Tom Smithwick for having supplied me with a lot of thetechnical information when I was making my first set of forms. Thomas;Great page on making your forms, I am just getting ready to starton a set and this page will be of great help to me. ThanksGary Jones --------------CCB3BCF74815D0A8868F2427 Thomas Penrose wrote:I have finished an how-to site for making steel planingforms. It is set up on four pages, the first beingat:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/forms.htm Thanks go to Tom Smithwick for having supplied mewitha lot of thetechnical information when I was making my first setof forms. Thomas;Great page on making yourforms,I am just getting ready to start on a set and this page will be of greathelp to me. ThanksGary Jones --------------CCB3BCF74815D0A8868F2427-- from mathieu@compmore.net Sun Oct 26 15:24:27 1997 QAA28159 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:11:29 via SMTP by mail.compmore.net, id smtpd028156; Sun Oct 26 16:11:241997 Subject: Dave leclair email on finishes Dave LeClair You sent a email with an attachment but I can not open it please tell mewhat program you used and if you know what plugin to use then I will beable to see the atachment Thanks John McKinnon from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Sun Oct 26 16:01:05 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:00:59 EDT ; Sun, 26 Oct 199717:01:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Steel planing form website =_NextPart_000_01BCE230.D26B82A0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE230.D26B82A0 I took a look at the page. Nice job. Just curious, but how much time did ittake to make a set of forms? -----Original Message----- Subject: Steel planing form website I have finished an illustrated how-to site for making steel planingforms. It is set up on four pages, the first being at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/forms.htm Thanks go to Tom Smithwick for having supplied me with a lot of thetechnical information when I was making my first set of forms. Thomas PenroseBend, OR ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE230.D26B82A0 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE230.D26B82A0-- from penr0295@uidaho.edu Sun Oct 26 16:16:41 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id OAA07826 for ; doing -bs Subject: RE: Steel planing form website Just curious, but how much time did it take to make a set of forms? Jon, the first set I made was around 70 hours. This time around it was closerto 50-55. About the same amount of time as making a rod, only it involvesquite a bit more manual labor than rod building. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from WDHCJL@aol.com Sun Oct 26 17:01:19 1997 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes If anyone is interested in spraying, try using an airbrush and polytranspar.It is a thinned polymer/lacquer used in the taxidermy industry.doug hall from coopers@cyberg8t.com Sun Oct 26 18:01:11 1997 key.cyberg8t.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA27531 for Subject: Re: Steel planing form website Thomas Penrose wrote: (snip) a bit more manual labor than rod building (snip) Great pageTom... I do have a set of reject forms I'd like to re-work...I bought them from an esteemed list member earlier this year.I hope I can re-work the 1.5:1 slope to a 1:1.However, and moreover,Where the heck did you find a perfect eq. triangle file.Or are they just run of the mill that way [no pun intended ;>)].Bill C. from urbig@biokemi.su.se Mon Oct 27 02:08:52 1997 IAA18089 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:08:51GMT 27 Oct 97 08:56:36 +0100 +0100 ESMTP;27 Oct 97 08:56:01 +0100 Subject: Re: Steel planing form website I have finished an illustrated how-to site for making steel planingforms. It is set up on four pages, the first being at:http://www.uidaho.edu/~penr0295/Toms/forms.htm Thanks go to Tom Smithwick for having supplied me with a lot of thetechnical information when I was making my first set of forms. Thomas PenroseBend, OR Great webpage! How expensive was the set of forms you made (labour notincluded)?As being new to rodmaking and this newsgroup: would the steps involvedinmaking a wooden planing form(s) be the same (I guess), or where are thedifferences. What types of wood would be preferred. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Urbig Stockholm UniversityArrhenius Laboratory, Department of BiochemistrySvante Arrhenius Vaeg 12S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone + 46 8 16 15 53 (Inst.) or + 46 8 674 08 19 (home)Fax + 46 8 15 36 79 (Inst.) Email:Urbig@biokemi.su.se from WILHELM.RON@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV Mon Oct 27 09:44:57 1997 with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:03:03 -0500 Subject: Forms -Reply JON, I AM INTERESTED IN THE BINDER. IF YOU ARE MAKING A LIST PUT ME ON ITAND GIVE ME DETAILS ON WHAT TODO TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN, PAYMENT ETC. THANKS, RON from penr0295@uidaho.edu Mon Oct 27 10:04:39 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id IAA03546 for ; doing -bs Subject: Re: Steel planing form website Great webpage! How expensive was the set of forms you made (labour notincluded)?As being new to rodmaking and this newsgroup: would the steps involvedinmaking a wooden planing form(s) be the same (I guess), or where are thedifferences. What types of wood would be preferred. Thomas Urbig The materials/tools list breaks down as follows. I will include theprices for the dial calipers and dial indicator depth gauge, althoughpractically speaking these two items are rod building tools that you willbe using when making the forms. For making wooden forms (hard mapleseemsto be the preferred wood) I would refer to Bruce Connor webpage on thetopic at: http://www.cybercom.net/%7Ebconner/planeform.html MATERIALS12' piece of 3/4" x 3/4" cold-rolled steel key-stock: $17 15 shoulder bolts, 15 set screws, 14 steel dowel pins: about $23 (probablycost less ordered though Enco) TOOLSAt least 2 bar style clamps or large c-clamps: $1512 2" c-clamps: $2310" mill bastard file: $9 5/16"-18 tap bit and tap wrench: $11Dial caliper: $25Dial indicator depth gauge (includes base and 60 degree contact tip): $35Allen wrenches: $4Triangular file: $6 Drill press: $80 ( from Grizzly Imports or Enco) I do not have informationon the availability of the Stanley #59 doweling jig if you choose to usethis rather than a drill press. The other two doweling jigs Iexperimented with (made by General) did not seem workable (too muchplayin the guide sleeves). Drill press vise: $11 ( from Grizzly Imports or Enco)3/16" drill bit, 1/4" drill bit, 3/8" drill bit: $16 The total here is around $230, but in addition to the forms you aregetting your rod building measuring tools, a drill press set-up, and quitea few other tools as well. This price also assumes that you do not haveany of the tools already, or cannot borrow them. from burrill@ccnet.com Mon Oct 27 15:09:49 1997 13:08:33 -0800 Subject: RE: Steel planing form website This is all great information. I coincidentally stumbled upon your sitetoday through HotBot and was going to post its information here. I haveanother question for you. Where did you get your mica strip oven? and didyou make your Garrison binder? from jfoster@gte.net Mon Oct 27 15:38:08 1997 Subject: help/help/HELP mac-creator="4D4F5353" To All: I crashed my system 3 weeks ago , just befor my trip to the 'White".. Ihate to say this but the drive I lost contained all my mail....which hadall the tapers you guy's had submitted for posting... so if you sent mea taper and it's not on the page..would you PLEASE resend it, to me orthe listproc.. Jerry from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Oct 27 16:19:39 1997 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon,27 Oct 1997 18:19:09 EST Subject: Re: Forms -Reply Sure Ron. I will let you know. I went today to talk with the gentlemen.We are looking at 85 tops plus shipping. I finished mine, the importantparts at least and I want to try it out to make sure everything works. Ifmy name is attached to it, I want a quality product. I will write morlater. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(800) 836-7558 On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, RON WILHELM wrote: JON, I AM INTERESTED IN THE BINDER. IF YOU ARE MAKING A LIST PUT ME ON ITAND GIVE ME DETAILS ON WHAT TODO TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN, PAYMENT ETC. THANKS, RON from penr0295@uidaho.edu Mon Oct 27 16:47:23 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id OAA28099 for ; doing -bs Subject: Steel forms site change I have decided to make a change in the sequence of the instructions forbuilding the steel planing forms at my website. I know that a few of youhave already printed it out, so I want you to be aware of the change. Instead of draw-filing the top and bottom surfaces of the forms prior todrilling the holes and installing the shoulder bolts, the draw-filing ofthese surfaces will occur after the bars have been bolted together(please note that some draw-filing still does take place prior to drillingany holes though).While there are advantages to doing all of the draw-filing before thedrilling takes place, the risk that one will botch the drilling job(and end up with crooked holes) is great enough that I think that it maybe best for most builders to wait until after the drilling is completedbefore spending all of the time and effort it takes to draw-file theforms. If one wishes to do all of the draw-filing first though, thiscould better ensure that the bars rest squarely in the drill press vise ordoweling jig. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from burrill@ccnet.com Mon Oct 27 18:29:14 1997 16:28:08 -0800 Subject: Forms -Reply Jon,I missed the beginning of this conversation. If this is a Garrisonbinder, or some flavor there of, I'd also be interested. $85 soundsreasonable. from mleider@postoffice.ptd.net Mon Oct 27 19:50:48 1997 0000 Subject: snake guide sizes and #'s i'm getting ready to order components for a rod and i am a bit confused onthe sizes of snake guides.....i have alway's bought them in the past fromcatalogs which would sell "sets" of guides, and i never bothered to figureout the sizes......well now i'm ordering from REC who doesn't have "sets"so here's my question...i'm making a 7'6" 4wt....if i'm correct, i need 7 snakes + 1 stripper???now, what are the right sizes and numbers of each size which i would need also, in REC's new catalog, they have bronze snake guides shown, butthey're not listed on the price list....does anyone out there know if theydo indeed have bronze guides?? i know i should probably just e-mail themdirectly, but i'll save a letter and see if anyone here can help meout......thanks for any info!!! ____________ \_______________________________________________________________////_////____MattLeiderman____mleider@postoffice.ptd.net____/// \\\\_\\\\__http://home.ptd.net/~mleider/________ICQ#3782893__\\\ ____________/ O-,- \||||/_____(_______\||/_o-------------------------------- --------------`''''''/||\/||||\ from jsbond@inforamp.net Mon Oct 27 20:25:55 1997 Subject: Re: snake guide sizes and #'s Matt, You need 1 #10 stripper 1 #3 3 #2's 2#1's 1#1/0 . Good Luck JB At 21:53 27/10/97, you wrote:i'm getting ready to order components for a rod and i am a bit confused onthe sizes of snake guides.....i have alway's bought them in the past fromcatalogs which would sell "sets" of guides, and i never bothered to figureout the sizes......well now i'm ordering from REC who doesn't have "sets"so here's my question...i'm making a 7'6" 4wt....if i'm correct, i need 7 snakes + 1 stripper???now, what are the right sizes and numbers of each size which i wouldneed also, in REC's new catalog, they have bronze snake guides shown, butthey're not listed on the price list....does anyone out there know if they>doindeed have bronze guides?? i know i should probably just e-mail themdirectly, but i'll save a letter and see if anyone here can help meout......thanks for any info!!! ____________ \_______________________________________________________________////_////____MattLeiderman____mleider@postoffice.ptd.net____/// \\\\_\\\\__http://home.ptd.net/~mleider/________ICQ#3782893__\\\ ____________/ O-,- \||||/_____(_______\||/_o-------------------------------- --------------'''''''/||\/||||\ James Bond, Toronto, Canada Fax (416) 444-8380E-Mail jsbond@inforamp.net from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Oct 27 20:54:05 1997 Subject: Re: Dave leclair email on finishes John, I didn't have an attachment. Just a standard e-mail.Basically I justsaid that Ispray my rods rather than dipping or brushing. I use Helmsman sparurathane.Thinned with mineral spirits.I spary it on with an air brush. I apply three coats. Sanding the first andsecond with 1000 grit. The third coat is left as it is. If you have a fairlydust free room to do the job, the finish comes out great. Dave LeClair from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Mon Oct 27 21:17:38 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:11:52 EST Subject: Sheaves bearings. Anyone know why this might be a poor choice? Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 (800) 836-7558 from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Oct 27 21:36:39 1997 Subject: Re: Spray Finishes Jon, I use Helmsman spar urathane. I thin it approx. 50/50 with mineralspirits. The last coat is not thinned quite so much. Dave LeClair from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Oct 27 23:38:30 1997 Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:38:17 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: snake guide sizes and #'s wugate.wustl.edu id XAA26281 Matt,If you're needing to know if REC have bronze guides email them. I recently got some gear off REC and Alan was very quick to respond, also the gear was of good quality. I placed an order and it arrived on my door step inside of 1 week, which is lightening fast to Australia! Tony On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Matt Leiderman wrote: i'm getting ready to order components for a rod and i am a bit confusedonthe sizes of snake guides.....i have alway's bought them in the past fromcatalogs which would sell "sets" of guides, and i never bothered to figureout the sizes......well now i'm ordering from REC who doesn't have "sets"so here's my question...i'm making a 7'6" 4wt....if i'm correct, i need 7 snakes + 1 stripper???now, what are the right sizes and numbers of each size which i wouldneed also, in REC's new catalog, they have bronze snake guides shown, butthey're not listed on the price list....does anyone out there know if theydo indeed have bronze guides?? i know i should probably just e-mailthemdirectly, but i'll save a letter and see if anyone here can help meout......thanks for any info!!! ____________ \_______________________________________________________________////_////____MattLeiderman____mleider@postoffice.ptd.net____/// \\\\_\\\\__http://home.ptd.net/~mleider/________ICQ#3782893__\\\ ____________/ O-,- \||||/_____(_______\||/_o-------------------------------- --------------`''''''/||\/||||\ /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from penr0295@uidaho.edu Mon Oct 27 23:46:59 1997 with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id VAA23163 for ; doing -bs Subject: Need H-I reel seat I started a restoration on a 1930s H-I Beaverkill andmisplaced the reelseat insert, which had previously come unglued fromtherod. Actually, I am worried that I may have put it into a bag with somecork scraps that I later threw away. I still have the knurled locking nutand butt cap that went with this 3 3/4" long black plastic (orbakelite) down-locking reel seat. The insert has the threads molded intoit. Any chance anyone has got one to sell? The seat itself looks virtually identical to the one shown on page 118 of Michael Sinclair'srestoration handbook. The aluminum locking ring in this illustration isalso identical to mine. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from fer@surfplanet.com Tue Oct 28 04:11:45 1997 LAA14284 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:18:05GMT Subject: Cattanach 76531 info. Hello, Last week I've started planning a new rod. I wanted to make a 7'6'' #5 3pc. and I have modified in my computer program a Cattanach 76531 taper(rodmakers archives) to get more casting length without changing theshape of the stress curve, which seems to be a fast action one. Haveanybody tried this taper?- I would apreciate any comments about this taper. - Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's an airflow device). - How about the space between guides for this taper? (we are alwaystaking the Garrison values, is there any method to calculate this fordifferent tapers?) - I'm interested in making two tips for this rod. Any sugestionsabout how to change the shape of the stress curve at the tip for awet/nymph usage. ** Cattanach 76531 (powered). Ferrules 11/64 truncated, 14/64truncated ** POINTS | DIMENSIONS | STRESS 0 0,073 643335 0,084 21487110 0,101 25136715 0,123 21325320 0,144 18177325 0,157 18146130 0,166 19112635 0,185 17162140 0,213 13624445 0,224 13986550 0,234 14456855 0,245 14732360 0,258 14618965 0,268 15257770 0,282 15156175 0,295 15228380 0,302 16201790 0,302 Thanks again. Best regards, Fernando. from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Oct 28 08:42:01 1997 Subject: Re: Need H-I reel seat Tom - I have two of them, but I'm not sure they are H-I, one has finethreads(28 tpi), and the other is more normal (16 tpi). The one with the finethreadhas a nut and sliding ring, the other has a nut and sliding hood. Send youraddress if you want one of them. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Oct 28 08:57:21 1997 Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:57:01 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: Cattanach 76531 info. wugate.wustl.edu id IAA15669 On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Fernando Rada wrote: Hello, Last week I've started planning a new rod. I wanted to make a 7'6'' #5 3pc. and I have modified in my computer program a Cattanach 76531 taper(rodmakers archives) to get more casting length without changing theshape of the stress curve, which seems to be a fast action one. Haveanybody tried this taper?- I would apreciate any comments about this taper. I have a three piece rod of this taper which I use often when I travel and I have also made one of these in a two piece version.The two piece rod seems more "tippy" than the three but nicer to cast.As the taper stands it will cast a good length. - Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's an airflow device).Nothing new, just what has been recently said. Try 30-40 mins at 200c. - I'm interested in making two tips for this rod. Any sugestionsabout how to change the shape of the stress curve at the tip for awet/nymph usage. What is the general thinking about shortening the heat treating rather than altering the taper to get a different action? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Oct 28 09:06:57 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0600 Subject: local bamboo List, A neighbor who lives in a very old estate offered me some of thebamboothat has gone wild from a once formal garden. I haven't looked at ityet, but was wondering if any of you knew how to determine the speciesof the bamboo through observation. I'm no botanist, and don't intend toget too technical, but I know there are literally hundreds of species ofbamboo. There's a fair chance that it is an exotic species like Tonkinbecause the originator of this formal garden was rather eccentric.Also, even though I'll probably never use her cane for building a rod,I would like to use some of it to make rod cases. It measures 2 to 10!inches in diameter. I could split it and hinge it, but I'd rather makea tube out of it. Does anyone know how to cut the cane and keep it fromsplitting while it dries? If it was green wood, the procedures arefairly straight-forward, but I suspect bamboo would crack and fissureit's whole length if the end grain was sealed.Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated. from frankc@webspan.net Tue Oct 28 09:24:21 1997 Subject: cane splitting I just split my first pole and found it to be a truly humblingexperience. The cane seems to have a mind of it's own. Only in a fewinstances did the cane go where I wanted it to. I tried to split thenodes and then have the splits meet. I tried in half, then in half andhalf again, etc. Nothing seemed to work for me. I remember reading asome helpful information regarding splitting some time ago on thissite. Can someone give me the site where this info is archived? Anycomments on splitting would be greatly appreciated. Frank from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Oct 28 09:37:31 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:37:25 EST ; Tue, 28 Oct 199710:37:56 -0500 Subject: RE: Forms -Reply =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.8DC62C00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.8DC62C00 Ok, I will keep you posted -----Original Message----- Subject: Forms -Reply Jon,I missed the beginning of this conversation. If this is a Garrison =binder, or some flavor there of, I'd also be interested. $85 sounds =reasonable.----- - =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.8DC62C00 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.8DC62C00-- from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Oct 28 09:37:36 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:37:31 EST ; Tue, 28 Oct 199710:38:06 -0500 Subject: RE: Spray Finishes =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.93BC0D00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.93BC0D00 Thanks. I used to air brush and I am inclined to try it. Talk to you later. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spray Finishes Jon, I use Helmsman spar urathane. I thin it approx. 50/50 with mineralspirits. The last coat is not thinned quite so much. Dave LeClair ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.93BC0D00 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE38D.93BC0D00-- from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Tue Oct 28 10:27:22 1997 IAA22953 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:25:33 R8.00.00) Subject: Re:cane splitting --simple boundary Sir D posted this just a few weeks ago: No, I don't use a knife at all, except for the first three splits, where Iuse a meat cleaver and rubber mallet. It's one of those things that'shard to write down, but easy to see if you watch. propagate the split along the length by grasping the strips, one in each hand, close to the split and levering my thumbs against each other, I slowly move the split down the middle. When the split starts to wander, I bend the unsplit portion of the strip in the appropriatedirection. If the split has wandered to the left, the strip has to be bentto the left, so that the split will go to the right. In other words the splitwill go towards the side that is stretched, away from the side that iscompressed. Like I said before, all it takes is practice, and with asacrificial culm or two anyone can split a culm to 32. ____________________Reply Separator____________________Subject: cane splittingAuthor: I just split my first pole and found it to be a truly humblingexperience. The cane seems to have a mind of it's own. Only in a fewinstances did the cane go where I wanted it to. I tried to split thenodes and then have the splits meet. I tried in half, then in half andhalf again, etc. Nothing seemed to work for me. I remember reading asome helpful information regarding splitting some time ago on thissite. Can someone give me the site where this info is archived? Anycomments on splitting would be greatly appreciated. Frank --simple boundary (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.00); Tue, 28 Oct 97 07:32:29 GMT intergate.sduhsd.k12.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id HAA19453 for Subject: cane splitting --simple boundary-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Oct 28 11:03:17 1997 Subject: Re: local bamboo In a message dated 10/28/97 3:08:51 PM, you wrote: I'm not really sure, but if I were to try, I would get rid of the nodediaphragms. Maybe you can hook a hole saw up to a drill extension rod?ThenI would seal the end grain and try to dry it slowly in my basement, maybeeven wrapped in plastic. from bc940@freenet.uchsc.EDU Tue Oct 28 13:04:14 1997 MAA25013; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:03:57 -0700 Subject: Re: cane splitting I just split my first pole and found it to be a truly humblingexperience. The cane seems to have a mind of it's own. Only in a fewinstances did the cane go where I wanted it to. I tried to split thenodes and then have the splits meet. I tried in half, then in half andhalf again, etc. Nothing seemed to work for me. I remember reading asome helpful information regarding splitting some time ago on thissite. Can someone give me the site where this info is archived? Anycomments on splitting would be greatly appreciated. Frank Frank The splitting method that I use is to drive a sharpened screwdrive throughthe culm at the first node. Then I push the screwdriver is driven into ascrap piec of 2x4. I then push the culm into the shank of the screwdriver working the split down the cane. I use my right hand to push thecane forward and use my left hand to put side pressure on the culm tomovethe split to the right or left as needed. This has worked well for me, Ihope it helps you. Good luck. Jim Fillpot, Loveland Colorado -- from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Tue Oct 28 13:47:23 1997 #23561)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:47:16 EST ; Tue, 28 Oct 199714:47:27 -0500 Subject: RE: local bamboo =_NextPart_000_01BCE3B0.68E1A9A0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE3B0.68E1A9A0 from what I have read, the only thing useful would be to break out theinternodal dams. -----Original Message----- Subject: local bamboo List, A neighbor who lives in a very old estate offered me some of thebamboothat has gone wild from a once formal garden. I haven't looked at ityet, but was wondering if any of you knew how to determine the speciesof the bamboo through observation. I'm no botanist, and don't intend toget too technical, but I know there are literally hundreds of species ofbamboo. There's a fair chance that it is an exotic species like Tonkinbecause the originator of this formal garden was rather eccentric.Also, even though I'll probably never use her cane for building a rod,I would like to use some of it to make rod cases. It measures 2 to 10!inches in diameter. I could split it and hinge it, but I'd rather makea tube out of it. Does anyone know how to cut the cane and keep it fromsplitting while it dries? If it was green wood, the procedures arefairly straight-forward, but I suspect bamboo would crack and fissureit's whole length if the end grain was sealed.Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated.------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE3B0.68E1A9A0 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE3B0.68E1A9A0-- from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Oct 28 14:49:11 1997 Subject: Re: local bamboo In a message dated 97-10-28 12:10:35 EST, you write: splitting while it dries?>> I'm not really sure, but if I were to try, I would get rid of the nodediaphragms. Maybe you can hook a hole saw up to a drill extension rod?ThenI would seal the end grain and try to dry it slowly in my basement,maybeeven wrapped in plastic. I've heard of rod cases made of whole bamboo culms, and they seem tohave thread wraps like the intermediate wraps on old rods. Perhaps alongwith sealing the end grain and/or wrapping in plastic, a spiral wrap withstring will help. Darryl Hayashida from mathieu@compmore.net Tue Oct 28 18:16:28 1997 TAA05239 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:03:16 via SMTP by mail.compmore.net, id smtpd005226; Tue Oct 28 19:03:101997 Subject: Binders I am looking for a set of plans to build a binder or looking for a placeto buy one. I would like to purchase on in Canada if possible. Thanks John McKinnonOttawa, Ont. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Oct 28 19:59:59 1997 Subject: Re: Re: snake guide sizes and #'s Matt,I generally use a guide for each running foot or portion thereof plus 1.This means that for a 71/2' rod the number of guides is 8 + 1 or 9. Onlongerrods I might do 2 strippers instead of 1. I also tend toward larger thanusual sizes, starting with a 10 or 12 mm. stripper then a #4 or #5(dependingon stripper size ) and going down to a size equal to the size of thetiptop-usually a #1-not a#01. The larger size guides shoot line better inmyopinion. Hope this helps.Hank. from richjez@enteract.com Tue Oct 28 23:07:52 1997 Subject: Re: local bamboo You might try your local ag extension agent for leads on who can identifythe bamboo. Also, the local state university, especially if it is a landgrant one will probably know of someone who can identify it. In theChicagoarea I would also contact the the botanical gardens.Rich Jezioro At 09:07 AM 10/28/97 -0600, you wrote:List, A neighbor who lives in a very old estate offered me some of thebamboothat has gone wild from a once formal garden. I haven't looked at ityet, but was wondering if any of you knew how to determine the speciesof the bamboo through observation. I'm no botanist, and don't intend toget too technical, but I know there are literally hundreds of species ofbamboo. There's a fair chance that it is an exotic species like Tonkinbecause the originator of this formal garden was rather eccentric.Also, even though I'll probably never use her cane for building a rod,I would like to use some of it to make rod cases. It measures 2 to 10!inches in diameter. I could split it and hinge it, but I'd rather makea tube out of it. Does anyone know how to cut the cane and keep it fromsplitting while it dries? If it was green wood, the procedures arefairly straight-forward, but I suspect bamboo would crack and fissureit's whole length if the end grain was sealed.Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated. from LHAWKS@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 29 08:09:57 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA541 +0000 Subject: please do not sent mail i don't want no more e-mailthank youlewis hawks from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Oct 29 08:13:37 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0600 Subject: Re: local bamboo Rich Jezioro wrote: You might try your local ag extension agent for leads on who can is a land grant one will probably know of someone who can identify it.In the Chicago area I would also contact the the botanical gardens.Rich Jezioro Thanks to Rich and all those who responded! The only trouble, Rich,isthat in North Louisiana county agents know everything there is to knowabout Cotton and Insectisides, and very little else. Our County Agentis a good friend of mine, though, and I will follow your lead and see ifhe might at least know who to ask.I think I'm going to follow each suggestion about making rod cases,i.e. wrap with string, knock out nodes, seal cut ends, even wrap inplastic. The process will take some time, so maybe next spring I canfill you in on how it has turned out. By the way, for those of you whoare buried in snow right now, spring in Louisiana begins aboutValentine's Day!Thanks again, Harry from longroge@isu.edu Wed Oct 29 11:11:53 1997 Subject: Spey rods Does anyone still make spey rods from bamboo? It would seem the actionwould be perfect for spey casting. How would I go about calculating ataper for say, a 121/2 foot spey rod, and could I get suitable cane? from delaney@acc.mcneese.edu Wed Oct 29 11:55:05 1997 (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08793 for ;Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:54:48 - 0600 Subject: Re: local bamboo We have spring here? I thought from October to about March was just arather coolo fall! Then summer started! Mark in LA (Lake Charles) On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: Rich Jezioro wrote: You might try your local ag extension agent for leads on who can is a land grant one will probably know of someone who can identify it.In the Chicago area I would also contact the the botanical gardens.Rich Jezioro Thanks to Rich and all those who responded! The only trouble, Rich,isthat in North Louisiana county agents know everything there is to knowabout Cotton and Insectisides, and very little else. Our County Agentis a good friend of mine, though, and I will follow your lead and see ifhe might at least know who to ask.I think I'm going to follow each suggestion about making rod cases,i.e. wrap with string, knock out nodes, seal cut ends, even wrap inplastic. The process will take some time, so maybe next spring I canfill you in on how it has turned out. By the way, for those of you whoare buried in snow right now, spring in Louisiana begins aboutValentine's Day!Thanks again, Harry from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Wed Oct 29 12:26:56 1997 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:26:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Spey rods Roger Long wrote: Does anyone still make spey rods from bamboo? It would seem theactionwould be perfect for spey casting. How would I go about calculating ataper for say, a 121/2 foot spey rod, and could I get suitable cane? Roger, I have been considering a cane Spey Rod as well. At 12 1/2 I'm surethat graphite would have a big weight advantage, but I would stillperfer the cane. I've looking for an older rod as well and have had noluck lately. Let me know how you make out. from mathieu@compmore.net Wed Oct 29 15:35:47 1997 QAA15875 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:22:29 via SMTP by mail.compmore.net, id smtpd015868; Wed Oct 29 16:22:251997 Subject: Re: Cattanach 76531 info. I wouldlike to know what computer program that you are talking about.Thanks John McKinnonTony Young wrote: On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Fernando Rada wrote: Hello, Last week I've started planning a new rod. I wanted to make a 7'6''#5 3pc. and I have modified in my computer program a Cattanach 76531taper(rodmakers archives) to get more casting length without changing the shape of the stress curve, which seems to be a fast action one. Have anybody tried this taper?- I would apreciate any comments about this taper. I have a three piece rod of this taper which I use often when I travel and I have also made one of these in a two piece version.The two piece rod seems more "tippy" than the three but nicer to cast. As the taper stands it will cast a good length. - Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's anairflow device).Nothing new, just what has been recently said. Try 30-40 mins at 200c. - I'm interested in making two tips for this rod. Anysugestionsabout how to change the shape of the stress curve at the tip for awet/nymph usage. What is the general thinking about shortening the heat treating rather than altering the taper to get a different action? Tony /*** *******************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/**********************************************************************/ from jlintve1@ic3.ithaca.edu Wed Oct 29 19:22:58 1997 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:21:53 EST Subject: Hmm... Who is canerods? I keep having a mail error coming back.Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 (800) 836-7558 from ghinde@inconnect.com Wed Oct 29 20:01:17 1997 0000 (209.140.67.111) Subject: Re: Spey rods You might try Martin Keane. He often lists a few two handed older canerods in his catalogs. A few years ago I purchased a 12 foot 9 weightLeonard from Martin that was in need of a complete refinish for a veryreasonable price. ( Do you have any idea of the number of intermediatewraps on a 12 foot Leonard???) The rod definitely has power, and therightspeed and feel of a good spey rod. BUT it is heavy!!! More like in lb.not oz. If you have the patience refinishing a rod such as this one makesa great Winter project. ----------From: John A. Whitaker Subject: Re: Spey rodsDate: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 2:00 PM Roger Long wrote: Does anyone still make spey rods from bamboo? It would seem theactionwould be perfect for spey casting. How would I go about calculating ataper for say, a 121/2 foot spey rod, and could I get suitable cane? Roger, I have been considering a cane Spey Rod as well. At 12 1/2 I'm surethat graphite would have a big weight advantage, but I would stillperfer the cane. I've looking for an older rod as well and have had noluck lately. Let me know how you make out. from longroge@isu.edu Wed Oct 29 20:19:16 1997 Subject: Re: Spey rods How would I go about getting one of his catalogues? george hinde wrote: You might try Martin Keane. He often lists a few two handed older canerods in his catalogs. from mathieu@compmore.net Wed Oct 29 21:39:46 1997 WAA16399 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:26:27 via SMTP by mail.compmore.net, id smtpd016376; Wed Oct 29 22:26:191997 Subject: Primary forms I have all the information that I need to make the steel planing forms,but now I need the information on the wood forms is there any place outthere that I can get this. Thank John McKinnonOttawa, Ontario from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 29 21:53:41 1997 (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAB22989 +0000 Subject: Re: Spey rods Believe there was a Scandinavian with a web page that currently makescane 2handers...If I can find address, will forward. At 03:59 PM 10/29/97 +0000, you wrote:Does anyone still make spey rods from bamboo? It would seem the actionwould be perfect for spey casting. How would I go about calculating ataper for say, a 121/2 foot spey rod, and could I get suitable cane? Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from ghinde@inconnect.com Wed Oct 29 22:49:41 1997 0000 (209.140.67.215) Subject: Re: Spey rods Martin Keane Classic Rods & Tackle, Inc. P.O. Box 288, Ashley Falls,Mass. zip 01222 Tel. (413) 229-7988In his last catalog No. 72-1997 ther were 2 two-hand salmon cane rodsforsale. One was 12 1/2 ft., and the other was 14ft. in length. ----------From: Roger Long Subject: Re: Spey rodsDate: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 6:06 PM How would I go about getting one of his catalogues? george hinde wrote: You might try Martin Keane. He often lists a few two handed oldercanerods in his catalogs. from fer@surfplanet.com Thu Oct 30 03:36:30 1997 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22118 for ;Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:43:19 GMT Subject: Re: More on Cattanach 76531 info. Tony Young wrote: Cattanach 76531 (powered)- Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's an airflow device).Nothing new, just what has been recently said. Try 30-40 mins at 200c. Tony Thanks Tony, Darryl, Richard, and everybody for your help. Excuse me if I'mmaking a lot of questions for the moment but we've been somewhatdisconected so far, and it's great to know and learn how "the Rest of theWorld" Team makes things.Are you heat-treating no taper forms (straight forms)? 200 ·c is what wenormally use but 30-40 min. seems too high to me (double time). We taperthe preliminary forms to heat-treating up to 15% larger that the finaltaper.So Tony, which is your method for such 30- 40 mins.? Any other sugestions about guide spacing and variation of stress curve fora wet tip? Fernando. from fer@surfplanet.com Thu Oct 30 04:23:30 1997 LAA23144 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:30:28GMT Subject: Re: Cattanach 76531 info. John McKinnon wrote: I wouldlike to know what computer program that you are talking about.Thanks John McKinnon Hello John,I use my own computer program to calculate a rod taper forsomeinitial conditions:action lenght, line number, average casting length,ferrules chosen, etc.Theese parameters let the program calculate the total moments created various weights involved for this particular rod. You have to introducealsothe stresscurve for the action you are looking for. Then the program apply suchstressvaluestogether with the previously calculated moments, and get the final taper.You can alsoreverse the process: if you want to know the stress curve of a particulartaper, you canintroduce that taper as initial data and the program will apply themomentsobtainedbefore to get the stress curve of this taper. I have recently seen theHexrod prog. andit's quite similar. I prefer mine becouse I'm used to it andmay be it'smoore open tosee what is happening: my program is an Excel 3.0 based version (it runs insuperiorversions though), and shows all the intermediate calculations. Also youcanchangealmost everything more easily (for example the impact factor if you haveanynew criteria to know macrolanguages as all the results are obtained by direct calculations.With this program you can also modify an initial stress curve in thepercentage you need,and compare two stress curves graphically.As you can see nothing really new, and of course not such nicepresentationas the Excel Hexrod,but for me is more useful.I was thinking in posting it for everybody but the only problem is that it'sin the Cervantes language(spanish of course) I don't know if you guys are really interested.Anyway I would translate and post it if somebody is interested. Fernando. from brookside.rod@juno.com Thu Oct 30 05:24:49 1997 06:24:16 EST Subject: Re: Spey rods (sources) On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:06:53 -0700 Roger Long writes:How would I go about getting one of his catalogues? Martin may be found at: Classic Rods and Tackle Mr. Martin KeaneP.O.Box 288Ashley FAlls, Ma. 01222(413) 229-7988 Gary Dabrowski - brookside.rod@juno.commaker of fine handcrafted split bamboo fly rodsBrookside Rod Co.37 Brook Street Naugatuck, Ct. 06770- 3101on-line catalog: http://home.onestop.net/brookside from HARRY@wacbhs.tstc.edu Thu Oct 30 07:45:33 1997 30 Oct 97 07:45:26 CST6CDT CST6CDT Subject: Re: Primary forms John-Try "Cane Rod Building" FAQ --by Bruce Conner bconner@cypercom.net has lots of good stuff. Harry ClairWaco, TX Date sent: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:45:55 -0500 Subject: Primary forms I have all the information that I need to make the steel planing forms,but now I need the information on the wood forms is there any place outthere that I can get this. Thank John McKinnonOttawa, Ontario from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Oct 30 08:09:57 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0600 Subject: Re: Primary forms John McKinnon wrote: I have all the information that I need to make the steel planing forms,but now I need the information on the wood forms is there any place outthere that I can get this. Thank John McKinnonOttawa, Ontario John,There are excellent instructions for making your own wooden planingforms in several places that I have found on the web. One is BruceConner's page. Another is Tony Young's. Still another is FrankNeuneman's page. Most of these are accesible through links from therodmakers homepage at //home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htmTo be honest, though, if you follow the instructions for making metalforms and simply substitute a top quality straight grained hardwood suchas rock maple, (Don't try red oak, too many gum lines!) you should havesuccess. That's what I did, and got it right on the third try!Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from gwbarnes@gwi.net Thu Oct 30 10:25:14 1997 Subject: Re: Primary forms Take a look at the last Planing Form newsletter to see my approach. George Barnes Harry Boyd, Jr. wrote: John McKinnon wrote: I have all the information that I need to make the steel planing forms,but now I need the information on the wood forms is there any placeoutthere that I can get this. Thank John McKinnonOttawa, Ontario John,There are excellent instructions for making your own woodenplaningforms in several places that I have found on the web. One is BruceConner's page. Another is Tony Young's. Still another is FrankNeuneman's page. Most of these are accesible through links from therodmakers homepage at //home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htmTo be honest, though, if you follow the instructions for makingmetalforms and simply substitute a top quality straight grained hardwoodsuchas rock maple, (Don't try red oak, too many gum lines!) you should havesuccess. That's what I did, and got it right on the third try!Harry Boydfbcwin@fsbnet.com from s3thomps@barnabas.indwes.edu Thu Oct 30 16:56:04 1997 (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA007708409; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:53:29 -0500 Subject: I have a request. Oct 30, 97 12:23 (noon) I am sure that you do not know who I am. For some reason, I am on some strange mailing circle relating to fishing. I have noclue how I happened to get on this, but would someone pleasetake me off. It is flooding my E-mail, and I have no idea what any of it means. I do not know how I got on this "mailinglist", but please remove me. Thank you! Sheri Thompson-- from ba-mma@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Thu Oct 30 17:03:37 1997 skeria.skelleftea.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) 1.21);31 Oct 97 01:05:01 MET DST 01:04:54 MET DST 31 Oct 97 01:04:49 MET DST Subject: Re: Spey rods Mailed an answer to this question yesterday. Wonder where that one went?Try my web-site. I have a 13 footer there. There's trouble finding the suitable thick-walled cane for these rods. There's also the trouble of the great stress thats put onto the lower ferrule when spey - casting. I have made some rods in one part- gets difficult to transport. Sharpe made them spliced because of this.I have calculated tapers the Garrison way. It doesn't seem to work with these big rods. They tend to get too weak.Good luck...----- -----------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Oct 30 17:10:51 1997 Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:10:40 +0800 (WST) Subject: Re: More on Cattanach 76531 info. wugate.wustl.edu id RAA24225 Tony Young wrote: Cattanach 76531 (powered)- Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's an airflow device).Nothing new, just what has been recently said. Try 30-40 mins at 200c.Tony Thanks Tony, Darryl, Richard, and everybody for your help. Excuse me ifI'mmaking a lot of questions for the moment but we've been somewhatdisconected so far, and it's great to know and learn how "the Rest of theWorld" Team makes things.Are you heat-treating no taper forms (straight forms)? 200 ·c is whatwenormally use but 30-40 min. seems too high to me (double time). Wetaperthe preliminary forms to heat-treating up to 15% larger that the finaltaper.So Tony, which is your method for such 30- 40 mins.? I started heat treating for about 15 mins at 200c and have been gradually increasing the time until now where I've pretty much settled on 30-40 mins at 200c. I like the results better this way. Longer than this seems to have no effect other than darkening the cane. As I make my rods nodeless and like blonde rods I don't want cane too dark, otherwise they look a bit patchy at the scarfs. but the splines glued together with UF I can say that it seems to workfine.I just finished straightening the tip section of a rod glued this way and experienced no scarf failures during the heat/straightening process.The epoxy was not post cured, so I guess it'd be an even better bet if it was. My thanks to those who suggested my trying it. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection/***********************************************************************/ from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Oct 30 19:52:50 1997 Subject: Re: Primary forms To be honest, though, if you follow the instructions for makingmetalforms and simply substitute a top quality straight grained hardwoodsuchas rock maple, (Don't try red oak, too many gum lines!) you should Harry, I have some 100 year old red oak that came out of an old barn. Hard assteel. I was planning on using this for my forms. The gum lines won'tallow me? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Oct 30 20:17:00 1997 Subject: Re: Re: More on Cattanach 76531 info. Fernando and Tony,If my math is right 200Deg. C= 392deg. F. At 30-40 min. you'll have abrown tone to say the least, if not charcoal.Any rebuttals?Hank. from fer@surfplanet.com Fri Oct 31 02:58:34 1997 (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09971 for ;Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:05:17 GMT Subject: Re: More on Cattanach 76531 info. Tony Young wrote: I started heat treating for about 15 mins at 200c and have beengraduallyincreasing the time until now where I've pretty much settled on 30-40mins at 200c. I like the results better this way. Longer than this seemsto have no effect other than darkening the cane. As I make my rodsnodeless and like blonde rods I don't want cane too dark, otherwise theylook a bit patchy at the scarfs. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/ Tony, As you make your rods nodeless, I'm wrong if I supose that you introducethe stripsin the oven without any planing? If that's true of course our 15 minutestimeshould be quite increased becaouse heat takes more time to get into the"heart" ofthe strip. Fernando. from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Oct 31 06:37:59 1997 Subject: wooden forms Another question on wooden forms? I haven't seen anyone mention it or read it anywhere but does anyone buta finish of any kind on the wood to seal it? Tung oil or wax oranything? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from s.wang@cummins.com Fri Oct 31 07:16:55 1997 08:15:21 -0500 smap (3.2) (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/04Mar96-1128AM) 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: More on Cattanach 76531 info. Tony Young wrote: Tony Young wrote: Cattanach 76531 (powered)- Any advice for time and degrees in the oven as well (it's an airflow device).Nothing new, just what has been recently said. Try 30-40 mins at200c.Tony Thanks Tony, Darryl, Richard, and everybody for your help. Excuse me ifI'mmaking a lot of questions for the moment but we've been somewhatdisconected so far, and it's great to know and learn how "the Rest oftheWorld" Team makes things.Are you heat-treating no taper forms (straight forms)? 200 ·c is whatwenormally use but 30-40 min. seems too high to me (double time). Wetaperthe preliminary forms to heat-treating up to 15% larger that the finaltaper.So Tony, which is your method for such 30- 40 mins.? I started heat treating for about 15 mins at 200c and have beengraduallyincreasing the time until now where I've pretty much settled on 30-40mins at 200c. I like the results better this way. Longer than this seemsto have no effect other than darkening the cane. As I make my rodsnodeless and like blonde rods I don't want cane too dark, otherwise theylook a bit patchy at the scarfs. but the splines glued together with UF I can say that it seems to workfine.I just finished straightening the tip section of a rod glued this way andexperienced no scarf failures during the heat/straightening process.The epoxy was not post cured, so I guess it'd be an even better bet if itwas. My thanks to those who suggested my trying it. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection /***********************************************************************/200C? That's 392F!-- Simon T. C. Wang s.wang@cummins.comSoftware Engineer Cummins Engine Company, Inc. http://www.cummins.com4080 West Jonathan Moore PikeCMC-7003, WestHill PlazaColumbus, IN 47201 Tel: (812)377-7632Fax: (812)377-1110 from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Oct 31 08:07:11 1997 Subject: Re: Spey rods There is an interesting light taper for a 12 1/2 foot 6 weight spey rod in"The Planing Form" issue #45. I recently came into posession of a SouthBend14 foot spey rod. When I get around to refinishing it, I will post the taper. You will probably have to double build the butt section, or perhaps use asoftwood core. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Oct 31 10:16:07 1997 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0600 Subject: Re: Primary forms Steve Trauthwein wrote: To be honest, though, if you follow the instructions for makingmetalforms and simply substitute a top quality straight grained hardwoodsuchas rock maple, (Don't try red oak, too many gum lines!) you should Harry, I have some 100 year old red oak that came out of an old barn. Hard assteel. I was planning on using this for my forms. The gum lines won'tallow me? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Steve,I can't say for sure about your oak, but I had serious problems when Iused oak purchased at LOWE'S. You might try a few strokes with a sharpplane to see if the gum lines will allow a very smooth surface to beplaned. from longroge@isu.edu Fri Oct 31 10:40:36 1997 Subject: Re: Spey rods Are back issues of The Planing Form available, and if so, at what cost? TSmithwick wrote: There is an interesting light taper for a 12 1/2 foot 6 weight spey rod in"The Planing Form" issue #45. I recently came into posession of a SouthBend14 foot spey rod. When I get around to refinishing it, I will post thetaper.You will probably have to double build the butt section, or perhaps use asoftwood core. from ba-mma@orkestern.skelleftea.SE Fri Oct 31 14:01:24 1997 skeria.skelleftea.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) 1.21);31 Oct 97 22:02:42 MET DST 22:02:14 MET DST 31 Oct 97 22:02:10 MET DST Subject: Re: Spey rods I have a good 13foot salmon - taper on my website - feel free to use it. There are some problems with these spey rods.The ferrules - there is great stress put on the lower ferrule when you spey cast. Not easy to hold it on place. Sharpe rods was very popular because they had no ferrules - they were spliced.The bamboo - it's hard to get that thick-walled cane.The taper - I have tried to calculate the Garrison way but they get too soft.Good luck...-- --------------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Fri Oct 31 18:06:28 1997 mail.clarityconnect.comwith SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:46:06 -0500 Subject: Drilling holes... I don't know that much about working with a drill press so here is the question. Why would a 1/2" bit scream when trying to drill through aluminum. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781 (800) 836-7558 from longroge@isu.edu Fri Oct 31 18:52:47 1997 Subject: Re: Spey rods I guess my next question would be how would I know my walls are thickenough? My guess is that wall thickness is related to cane diameter.If I could get a certain diameter of cane would I be reasonably certainof getting walls thick enough? Mikael, how did you deal with the ferrule stress on your rod? I couldlive with a two piece 13 ft. rod, but not a one piece. Would you saythis is too difficult a project for a novice rodbuilder? Would mychances of success improve with a slightly shorter rod, say 12 feet? Mikael Marklund wrote: I have a good 13foot salmon - taper on my website - feel free to useit. There are some problems with these spey rods.The ferrules - there is great stress put on the lower ferrule whenyou spey cast. Not easy to hold it on place. Sharpe rods was verypopular because they had no ferrules - they were spliced.The bamboo - it's hard to get that thick-walled cane.The taper - I have tried to calculate the Garrison way but they gettoo soft.Good luck...---- ------------------------------------------------------------Mikael Marklundmikael.marklund@orkestern.skelleftea.sehttp://www.skelleftea.se/utb/balder/personal/ba-mma/flyfish.htm from KDLoup@aol.com Fri Oct 31 20:33:23 1997 Subject: Re: local bamboo/LA winter Winter? Today felt like 80+ degrees. I went surf fishing wearing shortsearly last November. I could only stand about 45 minutes though! Kurt in LA (Denham Springs) from jczimny@dol.net Fri Oct 31 22:13:23 1997 Subject: Re: Drilling holes... Jon Lintvet wrote: I don't know that much about working with a drill press so here isthe question. Why would a 1/2" bit scream when trying to drillthrough aluminum. Jon LintvetIthaca, New York(607) 277-9781(800) 836-7558John,1. You should really re-configure the flutes on the drill for aluminum.2. Lubricate with kerosene.3. Don't use a conventional drill bit for sheet stock. Use a step drill or re-grind a regular drill for the purpose.4. Most machinist's books illustrate the configuration needed.John Zimny