from AWood70928@aol.com Thu Apr 9 19:59:39 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo rods & float tubes? In a message dated 4/9/98 6:35:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,rcurry@top.monad.net writes: Reed, I notice you didn't mention any specific names of rivers or streams :) Hinthint. Al from jfoster@gte.net Thu Apr 9 20:07:47 1998 Subject: Re: website shutdown Tom get to me offline i can probably build it behind your link for you jerry from dpeaston@wzrd.com Thu Apr 9 20:21:44 1998 mail.wzrd.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA20947; Thu, 9 Apr 199821:20:00 Subject: Re: jewellery At 10:27 AM 4/9/98 -0500, Bryant J. Cochran, Jr. wrote: Douglas P. Easton wrote: Bryant, This sounds good; how does one determine the correct size for the line? I use 3 pieces,(short leftovers from making shooting tapers), of the linesizethe rod is designed to cast, if these fit smoothly through the snake guidethatis the small size for that line weight. The large size is 2 numbers up from thesmall size number. I always use spinning rod guides fro the strippers andlargeloop tiptops. You can get more info on guides from Angler's Work Shop orClemens.Bryant C. Thanks, Bryant. This is the most definitive answer to this question I'veseen. Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Apr 9 21:21:08 1998 Subject: Re: Re: jewellery Terry,I have to agree with Bryant-I usually over size my stripper and thesnakesand i've had only one complaint and he wasn't going to buy the rod anyway.Regards,Hank.P.S. I use only the wire tip tops-often over size on larger line rods. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu Apr 9 21:23:49 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Grand silk order Chris,I'll go in for a half dozen spools of 2 of the most popular colors.Hank. from tbeckfam@pacbell.net Thu Apr 9 21:24:18 1998 SMTP idTAA15173 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:24:08 - Subject: Re: Grand silk order flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>I'd be happy to order a couple of spools in the agreed upon colors. WouldbRO>happy to throw in $5 - $10 (US).RO>Joe Mulvey Same here, Don BurnsFlyfisher@cmix.com or Canerods@aol.com Me Too! from cphisey@neca.com Thu Apr 9 21:50:35 1998 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sizing At 03:26 PM 4/9/98 EDT, you wrote:I agree with AJ on this and would be interested the Payne brown andantiquegold, a dozen or two of each. My preference would also be size A or 00. Chris ,I'd go along with this,let us know what is needed orderwise tomakethis work for you without you killing yourself.Best to keep it simple.Thanks,Charlie Hisey from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Thu Apr 9 22:04:33 1998 (METDST) Subject: wooden 5-strip planing form Hi Rodmakers! Has anyone a drawing/guidance for a wooden, 5-strip planing form?Or there`s one finished to sale? Thanks for all answers! Stefan/Switzerland from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu Apr 9 22:53:50 1998 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sizing Maybe we should compromise somewhere between 0000 and A?How 'bout 00?Just an idea... Rob Hoffhines from anglport@con2.com Thu Apr 9 23:10:58 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03617 for All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a 60degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog? Thanks,Art from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Apr 10 00:19:04 1998 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA5173 +0000 Subject: Re: SewellDunton rod I bought a couple of Sewell Dunton blanks from T&T when they first boughthim out.They were good quality with nice ferrules...but T&T may have introducedsome QCthat wasn't there before the purchase, i.e., they may not have soldcomponents thatbelow a certain level of quality. George W. Bourkeaka:irish-george@worldnet.att.net ----------From: john channer Subject: Re: SewellDunton rodDate: Thursday, February 19, 1998 8:20 AM At 11:27 AM 4/8/98 EDT, you wrote:To all,I'm replacing a ferrule on a Sewell Dunton rod and am wonderingaboutthequality of the rods in general. This one has random node spacing withthenodes on the mid on the same locus on strips 1,2 4,5. I also find thattheguide feet are not filed nor are the ferrule ends. The wraps are sizeA-atleast they're larger than the OO I'm using. One of the tip ferrules ismissing. Whoever took it off butchered the bamboo. The other maleferrule onthe 2nd tip had to be removed as I couldn't match it . The slide wasindentedinto the cane in 2 spots 180 degrees from one another-I thought theferrulewas pinned-not so. I ended up filing the ferrule off and replacing thesetwith a super z-the female ferrule that had replaced the original wastoolarge My question is: Does this quality of workmanship obtain throughouttheSewell Dunton rods or do they vary considerably? I must say the finishandcosmetics are great and the taper seems good.Thanks in advance for any info.Hank. Hank;Sewell Dunton bought out Montague's bamboo rod division when theycloseditout, he had been a bamboo broker previously. While this should be a goodclue as to the quality of his rods, seeing as he used all of Montague'soldequipment, it should be noted that when Sewell got out of the rodbusiness,he sold all of the equipment to Thomas &Thomas. Check out Dick Spurr's "Bamboo Rodmakers, Past and Present".John Channer from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Apr 10 00:58:51 1998 mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA25211 +0000 Subject: Re: CMT makes a couple of bits that could work (depending on how you dothings).One is an edge trimming bit, 30 degrees (for a two-piece adjustableplaningform, 30 degreeson one side + 30 degrees on the other side gives you 60 degrees), partnumber for that is821.030.11 and price is $15.90. The other choice, for a one piece planingform (60 degreeplough cut) is called a 60 degree laser point bit, part number 858.001.11and price is$32.90.Both of these items are in the catalog the The Japan Woodworker sent me(itONLYhas CMT router bits and saw blades) when I requested information on thebamboo froe theysell that some in the group have been raving about. Does anyone have thepart number andprice on that? George Bourkeirish-george@worldnet.att.net----------From: Art Port Subject: Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 9:20 PM All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog? Thanks,Art from channer@hubwest.com Fri Apr 10 01:31:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AD3F1E00DC; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:33:35 MDT Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod At 05:42 AM 4/9/98 -0600, you wrote: RO>Hank;RO>Sewell Dunton bought out Montague's bamboo rod division when theyclosed itRO>out, he had been a bamboo broker previously. While this should be agoodRO>clue as to the quality of his rods, seeing as he used all of Montague'soldRO>equipment, it should be noted that when Sewell got out of the rodbusiness,RO>he sold all of the equipment to Thomas &Thomas. Check out DickSpurr's "RO>Bamboo Rodmakers, Past and Present".RO> John Channer John, I've read this also. I've always wondered - was the equipment inquestion some of Montague's production rod equipment or was it theirhand-built rod dept's equipment? My impression is that the betterMontague rods where hand- planed. Montague did make a few nice rods - the Manitou, Red Wing etc. plus thecustom Varney rods made by the company's head-rodmaker. Don Burns Don;I wondered about that,too. But not being the least bit interested inMontagues, what I've always wondered is whatever happened to Heddon'sequipment. Judging by the Heddon's I've seen and their reputation forquality I would much rather run into their equipment and patterns, itdoesn't cost any more to dream big. By the way, does anyone have thetapers Rods of any length/weight? I'ld offer to buy these tapers, if I had anymoney to spend that is. One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourexcess cash problems in a big hurry.John Channer from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Apr 10 06:38:42 1998 gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net GAA24706 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sizing Nodewrrior wrote: Maybe we should compromise somewhere between 0000 and A?How 'bout 00?Just an idea... Rob Hoffhines I would be interested in several spools of 00. Regards, Steve Independence, MO from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Apr 10 07:27:20 1998 Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod At 04:04 PM 2/20/98, you wrote:One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourexcess cash problems in a big hurry.John Channer John,You must not be married. Gary from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Apr 10 07:44:15 1998 Subject: Re: wooden 5-strip planing form Stefan - To my knowledge, the only forms available are some aluminumversionsmade by George Barnes. If you want to purchase forms I would recommendyoucontact George, who is on this list.Making five strip forms is possible. Bill Fink and I did an article for TPF afew years ago, and it is also in "The Best of the Planing Form". Bill becameinterested in 5 strip design, and has built some dry fly rods of impressivecasting ability.There is a lot to this, contact me off list if you want further information. Tom Smithwick from eestlow@srminc.com Fri Apr 10 08:03:08 1998 1997)) id862565E2.00471C84 ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:56:43 -0500 Subject: Re: wooden 5-strip planing form Richard Tyree also builds five sided rods. He may have some input as well. -Ed Estlow from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri Apr 10 08:04:31 1998 Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod RO>Don;RO>I wondered about that,too. But not being the least bit interested inRO>Montagues, what I've always wondered is whatever happened toHeddon'sRO>equipment. Judging by the Heddon's I've seen and their reputation forRO>quality I would much rather run into their equipment and patterns, itRO>doesn't cost any more to dream big. By the way, does anyone have thetapersRO>for any 8' or shorter 35's, 60's, Presidents or even maybe a #1000 RodofRO>Rods of any length/weight? I'ld offer to buy these tapers, if I had anyRO>money to spend that is. One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourRO>excess cash problems in a big hurry.RO> John Channer John, I've got an 8' Heddon #125 (3/2) 1-3/4F that I'm bringing back form thedead right now. don't believe a Heddon taper would differ model tomodel. When I get the rod ready to refinish, I'll post the taper. Note: I'mscarfing the mid and tips - all are broken at the mid/tip ferrulestations. But I don't believe I'll be off taper by much, if at all. Don Burns from eestlow@srminc.com Fri Apr 10 08:18:55 1998 1997)) id862565E2.00488B53 ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:12:22 -0500 Subject: Tensile Strength Is it true that bamboo has a higher tensile strength than steel? I could bewrong but I seriously doubt it. Steels have a tensile strength of anywhere from 30,000 psi (that's POUNDS per square inch) to 350,000 psi for thespecialty steels. Typically I've seen bamboo strengths quoted in osi - OUNCES per square inch. I point out the obvious - there is a factor of 16between them. I have seen in recent threads that people are nervous aboutgoing over 200,000 osi in the stress curves. 200,000 osi is 12,500 psi,much lower than even cold rolled steel's allowable or ultimate tensilestrength (around 30,000 psi, I believe). Regards,Ed Estlow Grhghlndr on 04/09/98 06:24:36 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo rods & float tubes? Don,I don't do any float tubing but I am not very tall and I don't carry awadingstaff so when I get into sticky situations when wading I use my rod as acounter balance by sticking the tip section in the water ( sort of like atightrope walker would use his balance pole for ) I have done this foryearsand I have never had a problem with any rods. Also I fish a lot in the rainand under other adverse conditions and have never had a rod fail. Everyonethinks our bamboo rods are not very tough but they can take more abusethanmost people give them credit for. Don't forget bamboo has greater tensilestrength than steel.Bret from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Apr 10 08:58:18 1998 Subject: Re: Tensile Strength In a message dated 4/10/98 1:23:35 PM, you wrote: Ed - I have heard it said that ultimate tensile strengths in bamboo doapproach those of mild steel. I am not sure how much that means in termsofrodbuilding, other than an estimation of breaking strength. The functionsof arod, in terms of casting ability and resistance to sets would have more todowith yield strength, (the ammount of force that creates permanentdeformation)and I have no knowledge of that number or how to measure it. I suspect youcould get into trouble in a hurry comparing two very different materialsonthe basis of numbers alone. from Jon.A.Poling-1@tc.umn.edu Fri Apr 10 09:20:07 1998 09:19:59-0500 09:19:58-0500 09:19:58-0500 Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod Speaking of Heddon Rods,I am looking for Heddon reel seat parts and spacers.I have a Heddon Pal Pro fiberglass rod that needs the endcap part for the reel seat. It needs to be black.Also, the spacer is bakelite. Looking for one of those also. Does anybody know where I might find these items? Thanks.Jon Poling At 06:04 AM 4/10/98 -0600, you wrote: RO>Don;RO>I wondered about that,too. But not being the least bit interested inRO>Montagues, what I've always wondered is whatever happened toHeddon'sRO>equipment. Judging by the Heddon's I've seen and their reputation forRO>quality I would much rather run into their equipment and patterns, itRO>doesn't cost any more to dream big. By the way, does anyone have thetapersRO>for any 8' or shorter 35's, 60's, Presidents or even maybe a #1000 RodofRO>Rods of any length/weight? I'ld offer to buy these tapers, if I had anyRO>money to spend that is. One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourRO>excess cash problems in a big hurry.RO> John Channer John, I've got an 8' Heddon #125 (3/2) 1-3/4F that I'm bringing back form thedead right now. don't believe a Heddon taper would differ model tomodel. When I get the rod ready to refinish, I'll post the taper. Note: I'mscarfing the mid and tips - all are broken at the mid/tip ferrulestations. But I don't believe I'll be off taper by much, if at all. Don Burns from Jon.A.Poling-1@tc.umn.edu Fri Apr 10 09:30:26 1998 09:30:23-0500 09:30:22-0500 Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod At 09:20 AM 4/10/98 -0600, you wrote:Speaking of Heddon Rods,I am looking for Heddon reel seat parts and spacers.I have a Heddon Pal Pro fiberglass rod that needs the endcap part for the reel seat. It needs to be black.Also, the spacer is bakelite. Looking for one of those also. Does anybody know where I might find these items? Thanks.Jon Poling At 06:04 AM 4/10/98 -0600, you wrote: RO>Don;RO>I wondered about that,too. But not being the least bit interested inRO>Montagues, what I've always wondered is whatever happened toHeddon'sRO>equipment. Judging by the Heddon's I've seen and their reputation forRO>quality I would much rather run into their equipment and patterns, itRO>doesn't cost any more to dream big. By the way, does anyone have thetapersRO>for any 8' or shorter 35's, 60's, Presidents or even maybe a #1000Rod ofRO>Rods of any length/weight? I'ld offer to buy these tapers, if I had anyRO>money to spend that is. One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourRO>excess cash problems in a big hurry.RO> John Channer John, I've got an 8' Heddon #125 (3/2) 1-3/4F that I'm bringing back form thedead right now. don't believe a Heddon taper would differ model tomodel. When I get the rod ready to refinish, I'll post the taper. Note: I'mscarfing the mid and tips - all are broken at the mid/tip ferrulestations. But I don't believe I'll be off taper by much, if at all. Don Burns from bjcoch@arkansas.net Fri Apr 10 09:55:51 1998 mail.anc.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with ESMTP id JAA15294 for Subject: Re: Art Port wrote: All, I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVEa 60degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded.Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog?Art, check out the CMT catalog from THE JAPAN WOODWORKER They havesome neatchamfer bits on page 30. They also have V groving bits and one of them isa60 deg. laser point bit that you can make wooden forms with! The bitsarelisted in the 30-35 dollar range - a good value. Bryant C. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Apr 10 11:06:48 1998 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: heat treatin check out the heat treating at this web side. Their explanation is thesame as what Walton Powell told me (steam rupture). This is a prettyinteresting way of heat treating. http://www.gtii.com/paulyoung/ Patrick from flyrod@artistree.com Fri Apr 10 13:01:29 1998 LAA17849 Subject: Re:Bamboo Froe numbers Part number for Bamboo Froe from Japan Woodworker is #09.812.5 (doesnot havewood handle) . I personally liked Hida Tools version better. Hida's partnumber is G-3605 B w/out wood handle or part # G-3604 A which doeshave a woodhandle. Note: you will probably will want to make your own wood handlesinceit will be much less expensive. Something like a piece of 3/4 inch dowelsplitin half wrapped with a lot of duct tape will work fine. BTW - These are awork of blacksmithing art. My froe was signed by the maker, just like afinesplit cane fly rod! Hope this helps. Chris Wohlford irish-george@worldnet.att.net wrote: CMT makes a couple of bits that could work (depending on how you dothings).One is an edge trimming bit, 30 degrees (for a two-piece adjustableplaningform, 30 degreeson one side + 30 degrees on the other side gives you 60 degrees), partnumber for that is821.030.11 and price is $15.90. The other choice, for a one piece planingform (60 degreeplough cut) is called a 60 degree laser point bit, part number 858.001.11and price is$32.90.Both of these items are in the catalog the The Japan Woodworker sentme (itONLYhas CMT router bits and saw blades) when I requested information on thebamboo froe theysell that some in the group have been raving about. Does anyone have thepart number andprice on that? George Bourkeirish-george@worldnet.att.net----------From: Art Port Subject:Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 9:20 PM All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog?Thanks,Art from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Apr 10 13:46:22 1998 Subject: digital caliper Anyone,I need a new caliper. I have only owned dial types. I am thinking aboutadigital. Any opinions? Gary from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri Apr 10 13:53:32 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Art, I don't know much about router bits, but I have one that cuts a 60degreegroove. It's from Sears. (craftsman) Looks a little like this: | || |\ /\ /\/ Wouldn't that do the same thing, with some sort of guide?Harry BoydArt Port wrote: All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60 degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog?Thanks,Art from david.j.rogers@intel.com Fri Apr 10 14:19:31 1998 Subject: RE: Router bit The Bellinger beveller has a cutter very similar to this. Does anyone know were they get this tool? Maybe custom? David All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60deg edge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog? Thanks,Art from dryfly@erols.com Fri Apr 10 14:33:29 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Love my digital caliper, quicker to read. Be nice to see a digitaldepth gauge. Heidt wrote: Anyone,I need a new caliper. I have only owned dial types. I am thinkingabout adigital. Any opinions? Gary from donkovach@email.msn.com Fri Apr 10 14:46:12 1998 SMTPSVC;Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:45:39 -0700 Subject: Re: digital caliper I just ordered a depth gauge from Enco, and I saw they have a couple ofdigital depth gauges in their most recent catalog. They were priced atwellover a hundred dollars though. D.K. Love my digital caliper, quicker to read. Be nice to see a digitaldepth gauge. from thramer@presys.com Fri Apr 10 14:48:48 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Router bit Rogers, David J wrote: The Bellinger beveller has a cutter very similar to this. Does anyoneknow were they get this tool? Maybe custom? David All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog?Thanks,Art Bellinger uses two milling cutters back to back. When dull you canreverse the blades and go again.A.J.ThramerPS they are about 30-40 dollars each and quite readily available. from bjcoch@arkansas.net Fri Apr 10 14:50:48 1998 mail.anc.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with ESMTP id OAA29149 for Subject: Re: Bamboo Froe numbers C.J. Wohlford wrote: I requested information on the > bamboo froe theysellthatsome in the group have been raving about. Does anyone have the partnumber andprice on that? George Bourke irish-george@worldnet.att.net George, the part number is 09.812.5 price is 19.95 in my 94 catalog.Bryant C. from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Apr 10 14:59:20 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper GaryAt this point - if you are going to go digital - get a good one if youplanto drop the big bucks. Stick with a quality brand. This is not the time tosave$$.If you are cost conscious then stay with your analog one and be happy. Itdoesjust as good a job for a lot less.My digital one is a Starrett - I can not justify it on a cost /performance scale - but it isreal neat! - a toy in other words. You may opt not for SPC output and getsolarpower - but then . . . have fun. Chris On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:48:39 -0400, Heidt wrote: Anyone,I need a new caliper. I have only owned dial types. I am thinkingaboutadigital. Any opinions? Gary Regards Chris from flyfisher@brinet.com Fri Apr 10 15:43:42 1998 16:44:27 -0400 Subject: Re: digital caliper Heidt wrote: Anyone,I need a new caliper. I have only owned dial types. I am thinkingabout adigital. Any opinions? I work in a precision machine shop and everyone there uses Mitutoyodigital calipers. They are MUCH easier to read, not that dial ones arehard, but you can see numbers not hands. They are accurate to .0005. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from flyfisher@brinet.com Fri Apr 10 15:45:11 1998 16:45:54 -0400 Subject: Re: digital caliper Robert S Williams wrote: Love my digital caliper, quicker to read. Be nice to see a digitaldepth gauge. They are available. So are digital micrometers. They also make themthat plug into computers. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 17:11:18 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18534 for Subject: Re: Harry,I know about the 60 deg veining bit but that would take TWO passes at astrip to "mill" it. I have built a router fixture (jig?) which holds therouter so its axis is horizontal (to bore tenons for cabinetry) and it seemsto me that I could pass a strip of cane UNDER the horizontal bit and cut thewhole 60 deg cross-section in one fell swoop! Since I already have theapparatus, I thought that for the price of a bit I could try it out andmaybe make the initial tapering a breeze!I already have two sources for the one I'm hoping to get so I'll let TheList know of my progress on this in the future.BTW, thanks to the fellows who suggested Japan Woodworker and CMT.They bothlook promising.Artps: Sorry for not deleting the rest of this but I was afraid it would makeno sense w/o the diagrams At 01:51 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:Art, I don't know much about router bits, but I have one that cuts a 60degreegroove. It's from Sears. (craftsman) Looks a little like this: | || |\ /\ /\/ Wouldn't that do the same thing, with some sort of guide?Harry BoydArt Port wrote: All,I could swear I saw something about a router bit which would LEAVE a60 degedge on a shelf, a la a bullnose bit, but not rounded. ---------| || |\ /\ // \/ \| || |--- ----| || |Has anyone seen such an item in any catalog?Thanks,Art from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 17:15:07 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18760 for Subject: RE: Router bit At 12:16 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote:The Bellinger beveller has a cutter very similar to this. Does anyone know were they get this tool? Maybe custom? David David,I'm sure the Bellinger beveller has a more substantial cutter than a routerbit (at least I hope so!)- probably a mill cutter from metalworking. I don'tthink mine would hold up to the stress of turning out great nos of blanks. Ialso wouldn't expect mine to have the mass required to TAPER the strips.Art from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Apr 10 17:15:42 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Donald, Chris,...Guess I should have said this to start with but what I have looked atisaBrown & Sharp, because the depth rod is round (0.60"). Sound reasonable?Gary from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 17:23:11 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA19244 for Subject: Re: Router bit A.J.,I'm presuming that each of the Bellinger cutters cuts only 30 degs of thefull 60 deg included angle. Am I right? I don't think I want to get involvedin creating an arbor (or two) that would hold them accurately enough to dothat job. They just got better looking though since I got an e-mail rightafter yours from Fred Damsen of Japan Woodworker who assures me thatneitherhe nor CMT stocks such a bit!!!!Ah well, such is life, eh?Art At 12:53 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote:Rogers, David J wrote: The Bellinger beveller has a cutter very similar to this. Does anyone Bellinger uses two milling cutters back to back. When dull you canreverse the blades and go again.A.J.ThramerPS they are about 30-40 dollars each and quite readily available. from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 18:33:48 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23138 for Subject: RE: Router bit (JERRY) Just to prove that you're not wasting your time archiving all thoseposts..... Does this ring a bell? Art (And did you ever get an answer??????) BTW, if you'll rat out which Mike it was, I'll go after him directly!! Subject: Re: sanding Mike Where did you find a 60 Deg. inward router bit? Jerry from jczimny@dol.net Fri Apr 10 18:45:03 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Gary,I used the Brown&Sharp for the very reason that you so astutely spotted.Thedepthmeasuring rod is small in diameter and round. It fits small ferrules easilyandisequally handy for measuring cuts on the lathe and mill. I use mine all thetime. Heidt wrote: Donald, Chris,...Guess I should have said this to start with but what I have lookedatis aBrown & Sharp, because the depth rod is round (0.60"). Soundreasonable?Gary from jczimny@dol.net Fri Apr 10 18:55:05 1998 Subject: Re: SewellDunton rod Sewell Dunton bought out the cutting machinery and bamboo stocks ofseveral rodmanufacturers when glass became popular. As I understand, he kept someof thebetter machines and broke up those which the company didn't need. WhenThomas&Thomas bought Dunton, they got everything- cane stocks, glued-up sectionsand three very good milling machines. T&T kept two of the longest bedmills andsold the other. To the best of my knowlege all three are still in use.Dunton never made a hand planed rod. They did have a very good master rodmakerin the shop. (His name now escapes me) The very best that Dunton maderepresentshis best work.John Zimny john channer wrote: At 05:42 AM 4/9/98 -0600, you wrote: RO>Hank;RO>Sewell Dunton bought out Montague's bamboo rod division when theyclosed itRO>out, he had been a bamboo broker previously. While this should be agoodRO>clue as to the quality of his rods, seeing as he used all of Montague'soldRO>equipment, it should be noted that when Sewell got out of the rodbusiness,RO>he sold all of the equipment to Thomas &Thomas. Check out DickSpurr's "RO>Bamboo Rodmakers, Past and Present".RO> John Channer John, I've read this also. I've always wondered - was the equipment inquestion some of Montague's production rod equipment or was it theirhand-built rod dept's equipment? My impression is that the betterMontague rods where hand- planed. Montague did make a few nice rods - the Manitou, Red Wing etc. plus thecustom Varney rods made by the company's head-rodmaker. Don Burns Don;I wondered about that,too. But not being the least bit interested inMontagues, what I've always wondered is whatever happened to Heddon'sequipment. Judging by the Heddon's I've seen and their reputation forquality I would much rather run into their equipment and patterns, itdoesn't cost any more to dream big. By the way, does anyone have thetapers Rods of any length/weight? I'ld offer to buy these tapers, if I had anymoney to spend that is. One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourexcess cash problems in a big hurry.John Channer from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Apr 10 19:15:04 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Thank you all for the input It's a done deal. Guess it's a B&S.Gary At 07:37 PM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote:Gary,I used the Brown&Sharp for the very reason that you so astutely spotted.The depthmeasuring rod is small in diameter and round. It fits small ferruleseasily and isequally handy for measuring cuts on the lathe and mill. I use mine all thetime. from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 19:24:25 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26775 for Subject: Re: A different info repository All,I have just gotten access to several masters' rods to mike and realize thatI have no way of reasonably estimating the varnish thickness on them. I'venoticed in the past that several fellows take runs at estimates but I neverconsidered how rough those guesses might be. It would be a great help ifwecould preserve that data for all when we refurbish a rod. I'm sure that thevarious makers had somewhat consistent thicknesses of varnish from rodtorod, even if they didn't try to. Their very methods of most effectively (orcost-effectively) finishing must have imposed maxima and minima ontheir"film thicknesses", no?Anybody have any idea about a PHY ? I just finished miking a Para 15 anditvaries wildly from the one in the Tapers Files. No matter what I consider avarnish thickness, it ain't gonna bring MINE into correspondence with"ours".Any ideas?Art from thramer@presys.com Fri Apr 10 20:19:13 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit Art Port wrote: A.J.,I'm presuming that each of the Bellinger cutters cuts only 30 degs of thefull 60 deg included angle. Am I right? I don't think I want to getinvolvedin creating an arbor (or two) that would hold them accurately enough todothat job. They just got better looking though since I got an e-mail rightafter yours from Fred Damsen of Japan Woodworker who assures me thatneitherhe nor CMT stocks such a bit!!!!Ah well, such is life, eh?Art At 12:53 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote:Rogers, David J wrote:The Bellinger beveller has a cutter very similar to this. Doesanyone Bellinger uses two milling cutters back to back. When dull you canreverse the blades and go again.A.J.ThramerPS they are about 30-40 dollars each and quite readily available. It is a metal cutting head and two of them are ganged up on one shaft,each cutting one side of the bamboo strip. Al felt it was easier to usehis Whitehead beveler to initially taper the strips, use the Dickersonbeveler he makes to put the taper into the strips and finish them on theblocks by hand for the last .010" or so as there was a problem gettingthe glue seams tight enough to meet his standards.A.J.Thramer from thramer@presys.com Fri Apr 10 20:25:51 1998 Subject: Re: A different info repository Art Port wrote: All,I have just gotten access to several masters' rods to mike and realizethatI have no way of reasonably estimating the varnish thickness on them.I'venoticed in the past that several fellows take runs at estimates but Ineverconsidered how rough those guesses might be. It would be a great help ifwecould preserve that data for all when we refurbish a rod. I'm sure thatthevarious makers had somewhat consistent thicknesses of varnish fromrod torod, even if they didn't try to. Their very methods of most effectively (orcost-effectively) finishing must have imposed maxima and minima ontheir"film thicknesses", no?Anybody have any idea about a PHY ? I just finished miking a Para 15 anditvaries wildly from the one in the Tapers Files. No matter what I consideravarnish thickness, it ain't gonna bring MINE into correspondence with"ours".Any ideas?ArtArt,Nothing unusual about tapers that varied from one rod to another in myexperience with older production rods. It has occurred to me that mightexplain why the old boys used to have the maxim that if you find a rodthat feels 'just right' you had better buy it off the rack immediately.I firmly believe that the standards of construction that we adhere tothese days would be quite humorous to many of the last generation ofbuilders. A.J.Thramer from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 10 20:47:56 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02102 for Subject: Re: Router bit AJ,Al is asking a LOT more of his machine than I wished to ask of mine.All I want to do is get the 60 deg bevel started so I don't have to do thatextra planing. I'm hoping that if I straighten enough and mount a couple ofvertically spring-fed roller-bearings to hold the rind side of the cane flaton the table (close enough to the bit), I can bring the horizontally mountedbit down enough to carve both bevels on the strip at once. The router is mounted on a pivoting board mounted to a vertical wallso that the bit sticks through the wall to bore out tenons which would bepush-fed INTO the bit in its original design. This would just give anexisting machine another task. All us computer nerds know aboutmulti-tasking, right?If I can adapt the thing i can make it worth my while to drawpictures and schematics;Buh, foist, I got to git me oneathem BITS!!!!Art At 06:23 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote:Art Port wrote: A.J.,I'm presuming that each of the Bellinger cutters cuts only 30 degs ofthefull 60 deg included angle. Am I right? Al felt it was easier to usehis Whitehead beveler to initially taper the strips, use the Dickersonbeveler he makes to put the taper into the strips and finish them on theblocks by hand for the last .010" or so as there was a problem gettingthe glue seams tight enough to meet his standards.A.J.Thramer from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Apr 10 21:09:17 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo rods & float tubes? Nope.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Apr 10 21:09:20 1998 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sizing Chris,I'm inclined to go with A.J. on thread size and color while I can't do $500I can handle $250. Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Apr 10 21:09:55 1998 Subject: Re: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod Thanks to A.J.,Reed, Don , and John for the info.Hank. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Apr 10 22:17:05 1998 Subject: Heddon Parts Jon,There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsstuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allthe stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and I used tohave his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callinformation at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you could get his#. I amnot sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. If youdon't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it for youashe lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.Bret from jfoster@gte.net Fri Apr 10 22:46:58 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't thinkit was the bit we are looking for, i can't remember the guy's name buthe had a setup with the correct bit at the grayrock meeting a couple ofyears ago, maybe some one else remembers, as i recall it was set up todo the rough 60's, no taper. great little gadget, i asked him to bringit this year.. jerry from FLYROD777@aol.com Fri Apr 10 23:37:55 1998 Subject: Re: Cute Chris ! Wayne "To node or Not to node, that is the question" Just kidding Wayne Mark Hallowell from FLYROD777@aol.com Fri Apr 10 23:47:10 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital. Justanopinion Mark Hallowell from measter@sdcoe.k12.ca.us Sat Apr 11 00:25:50 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) grizzly sells the bit you're looking for in 90 deg. great if you want todo quads. I looked at having one done for me but the guy wanted 200bucks and as it was untested I passed.mark from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 00:58:42 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A6F9B600BA; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:00:25 MDT Subject: Re: Router bit At 09:57 PM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote:AJ,Al is asking a LOT more of his machine than I wished to ask of mine.All I want to do is get the 60 deg bevel started so I don't have to do thatextra planing. I'm hoping that if I straighten enough and mount a couple ofvertically spring-fed roller-bearings to hold the rind side of the caneflaton the table (close enough to the bit), I can bring the horizontallymountedbit down enough to carve both bevels on the strip at once. The router is mounted on a pivoting board mounted to a vertical wallso that the bit sticks through the wall to bore out tenons which would bepush- fed INTO the bit in its original design. This would just give anexisting machine another task. All us computer nerds know aboutmulti-tasking, right?If I can adapt the thing i can make it worth my while to drawpictures and schematics;Buh, foist, I got to git me oneathem BITS!!!!Art At 06:23 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote:Art Port wrote: A.J.,I'm presuming that each of the Bellinger cutters cuts only 30 degs ofthefull 60 deg included angle. Am I right? Al felt it was easier to usehis Whitehead beveler to initially taper the strips, use the Dickersonbeveler he makes to put the taper into the strips and finish them on theblocks by hand for the last .010" or so as there was a problem gettingthe glue seams tight enough to meet his standards.A.J.Thramer Art;I built a similar set up and use a flush trimming bit and a wooden formmade with a 60 d router bit. Actually, it takes two forms the way I have itset up, first a rough form to get the first side bevelled, then the 60dform for the other side. I feed climb cut( the wrong way for a router tocut) and I'm hoping to get the bugs out of the system enogh to get close tofinal taper with it t he finish by hand, but have a ways to go. The damnthing chatters like crazy and ocassionally takes the strip away from me,amworking on a way to use a pin set below the surfase of the form and ageared crank feed to keep everything where it belongs. I will let you knowif and when I get it working right.John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 00:59:08 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A70FB700BA; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:00:47 MDT Subject: Re:RE: SewellDunton rod At 08:29 AM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote:At 04:04 PM 2/20/98, you wrote:One thing about this hobby, it will cure yourexcess cash problems in a big hurry.John Channer John,You must not be married. Gary Gary;25 years this july, its also been roughly that long since I had any money,I've put most of the rodmaking stuff on credit cards and play the 5.9%shuffle. Such is life.John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 00:59:22 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A723B900BA; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:01:07 MDT Subject: Heddon taper Don;It would be great to have that taper. The only Heddon I have is a #14- 6/79'. I've tried to compare this to the tapers in the archives and the one ortwo that have been posted and can't find many similarities altho I havebeen told that they made thier blanks all the same and just trimmed themindifferent places for different rods. Can't have too many tapers layingaround.John Channer from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 06:56:32 1998 Subject: RE:Heddon Parts RO>Jon,RO>There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsRO>stuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.RO>Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allRO>the stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and I usedtoRO>have his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callRO>information at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you could gethis #. IRO>not sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. IfyouRO>don't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it foryou aRO>he lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.RO>Bret Bernard Hills was Heddon's last head rodmaker. I too would be interested in that phone #. Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com orcanerods@aol.com from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 06:56:48 1998 Subject: RE:Heddon taper RO>Don;RO>It would be great to have that taper. The only Heddon I have is a #14-6/7RO>9'. I've tried to compare this to the tapers in the archives and the oneorRO>two that have been posted and can't find many similarities altho I haveRO>been told that they made thier blanks all the same and just trimmedthem inRO>different places for different rods. Can't have too many tapers layingarounRO> John Channer John, I've got a few 9' Heddons myself, one is a 2-3/4F power-plus taper. Getsheavy real fast. Michael Sinclair's recent Heddon book said that they made all of theirsections in 4' lengths, then trimmed to size. That's how their first 2piece 7' rod was made - an employee trimmed down a mid and tips for alonger rod. The factory liked it so much that they made it into a model.(#51 - later #21 & #31 too) This is the only Heddon fly rod made withouta swelled butt. Don B. from flyfisher@brinet.com Sat Apr 11 07:04:02 1998 08:04:54 -0400 Subject: Re: digital caliper Heidt wrote: Donald, Chris,...Guess I should have said this to start with but what I have lookedatis aBrown & Sharp, because the depth rod is round (0.60"). Soundreasonable?Gary I don't have any experience with that brand, butin the shop we typicallydon't use the depth gauge on the caliper because it is dificult to getaccurate readings with it. (It's only good for estimates.) We use dialdepth gauges or depth micrometers. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from flyfisher@brinet.com Sat Apr 11 07:15:03 1998 08:15:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Router bit Has anyone tried using a shaper/molder? The kind that cut molding usepre- shaped blades so you might be able to cut the 60 d all in one pass. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 11 07:41:41 1998 (205.236.248.92) Subject: Re: digital caliper FLYROD777 wrote: My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital. Justanopinion Mark Hallowell I guess the salt spray rots them out?Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 11 07:44:20 1998 (205.236.248.92) Subject: Re: digital caliper Donald Yelton wrote: Robert S Williams wrote: Love my digital caliper, quicker to read. Be nice to see a digitaldepth gauge. They are available. So are digital micrometers. They also make themthat plug into computers. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com SPC in rodmaking, why not indeed?Terry from rcurry@top.monad.net Sat Apr 11 08:01:48 1998 Subject: Transitional Lines All,I purchased recently a line, new in the box, that seems to mark thetransition between the silk lines and the modern "microsphere" plasticlines. It is a Cortland "333" Non-Sinkable Bonded Finish Nylon Line(Cortline) in WEIGHT HCH. In the attached brochure it is designated asthe "Finest 'TOP WATER' Line with Bonded Finish". (Note the absence ofclaims that it floats.)Why this line is of interest is twofold: 1/ that the line core, as seenthrough the clear plastic finish, is still braided to taper, similar toa silk line, and the finish is uniform thickness; and 2/ The statementthat "To attain correct weight these lines are constructed to exceedslightly the standard calibrations of oil treated lines and aredesignated by weight rather than size."This is the first instance I've found of the move toward the bloatedsausage lines of the modern era. The tip, which is billed as an H(.025), measures out at .036, an F. In my book 144% is more than "exceedslightly". Other interesting differences include the fact, according to thebrochure, that the line comes with only 6" of level "H". It was usual suggests trimming this 6" carefully back to "balance best with theparticular design leader you intend using". Fate forfend if you changeleaders. Care instructions include using the special line cleaner(supplied), and "Dry out line after use by reeling onto line dryer andyou're ready for your next trip." Best regards,Reed from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Apr 11 08:47:04 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) Jerry I think you are talking about Al Medved and his router basedbeveler - it uses a straight bit (very easy to find) and a 60 degree "V"slot. Then it works the same as the Whitehead beveler. I believe plans for his are in the planing form and I have copy somewhere fromAL - or give him a call. BTW he also has a version for doing splices Chris On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:44:51 -0500, Jerry Foster wrote: Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't thinkit was the bit we are looking for, i can't remember the guy's name buthe had a setup with the correct bit at the grayrock meeting a couple ofyears ago, maybe some one else remembers, as i recall it was set up todo the rough 60's, no taper. great little gadget, i asked him to bringit this year.. jerry Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Apr 11 08:47:05 1998 Subject: Re: Cute Chris ! MarkIt is very poetic - Shakespeare could not have said itbetter himself or made as good a rod! It does bring up a good question of the choice many rodmakers havetoday.eChris On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:37:13 EDT, FLYROD777 wrote: Wayne "To node or Not to node, that is the question" Just kidding Wayne Mark Hallowell Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Apr 11 08:47:06 1998 Subject: Re: Heddon Parts Bret Leon Hanson number is (313) 459-2993and address is 1566 NantucketPlymouth, MI 48170 Chris On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:16:25 EDT, Grhghlndr wrote: Jon,There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsstuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allthe stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and I used tohave his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callinformation at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you could get his#. I amnot sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. If youdon't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it for youashe lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.Bret Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Apr 11 08:57:02 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Terry The SPC software demo is available from the Starrett web siteif you want to see the future of rodmaking fanaticism for accuracy. Unless you get a portable recording unit - you have to drag the computerintothe shop.The question I ask them now that you know all the stations of the stripsbothbefore andafter glueing and can plot it out 3 ways to sunday - then what? Do you gotoget the perfectzero tolerance graphs and ability to repeat it? We must remember the customer only sees the rod not the processelse wewould never eat sausage! Chris On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:44:25 -0400, Terence Ackland wrote: Regards Chris from destinycon@mindspring.com Sat Apr 11 09:13:23 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper At 08:41 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote: FLYROD777 wrote: My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital.Just anopinion Mark Hallowell I guess the salt spray rots them out?Terry OK.........the caliper?....or the machinest?Gary from richjez@enteract.com Sat Apr 11 09:31:26 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) JerryI thought he had two bits in his setup.Rich Jezioro At 09:44 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't thinkit was the bit we are looking for, i can't remember the guy's name buthe had a setup with the correct bit at the grayrock meeting a couple ofyears ago, maybe some one else remembers, as i recall it was set up todo the rough 60's, no taper. great little gadget, i asked him to bringit this year.. jerry from richjez@enteract.com Sat Apr 11 09:31:27 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Great Lakes Naval Training Center is on Lake Michigan and is still "fresh"water. At least as of 8am when I was down there last. Rich Jezioro At 08:41 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote: FLYROD777 wrote: My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital.Just anopinion Mark Hallowell I guess the salt spray rots them out?Terry from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 09:33:31 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18968 for Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) Thanks Jerry.... ...... Art At 09:44 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't think jerry from jczimny@dol.net Sat Apr 11 09:34:56 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Indeed they should be. But only if you're working in 10ths.John Zimny FLYROD777 wrote: My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital. Justanopinion Mark Hallowell from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 09:40:07 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19257 for Subject: Re: Router bit Mark,I ran into that wall a few years back (I think it was $50 bucks then; giveyou an idea how MANY years back). I wonder with all the machinists wehavein this group if it isn't possible to modify a (high speed) straight 3/4"bit on a lathe and retemper it? Once it's softened (annealed?) it should bea breeze to do with a thread cutter. Then just reharden. Or is that like thekid who says to Dad "All ya gotta do is take the engine out and put it backin again--how long could it take?"Art At 09:32 PM 4/10/98 +0000, you wrote:grizzly sells the bit you're looking for in 90 deg. great if you want todo quads. I looked at having one done for me but the guy wanted 200bucks and as it was untested I passed.mark from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 09:44:53 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19481 for Subject: Re: Router bit John,I'll keep in touch and let you know how my design turns out. Chatter wasn'tone of my worries..perhaps I'd better think this through some more on allcounts. Just remember to LET GO!! I almost didn't in a particularly stupidstunt on my radial arm saw a long while back, but I can still count to ten.Art Art;I built a similar set up and use a flush trimming bit and a wooden formmade with a 60 d router bit. Actually, it takes two forms the way I haveitset up, I will let you knowif and when I get it working right.John Channer from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 09:57:18 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20245 for Subject: Re: Router bit Don,That's the concept I'm working off, but I don't have a shaper and I do havea router. The $200 custom jobbie starts to look like a steal when youcompare it to the price of a shaper AND the needed cutters!Still looking,Art At 08:11 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Has anyone tried using a shaper/molder? The kind that cut molding usepre-shaped blades so you might be able to cut the 60 d all in one pass. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 10:26:27 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21704 for Subject: Thanks, Jerry Snider Jerry,Just got the Sci Am photocopy this am. Appreciate it. If I can ever returnthe favor let me know.Art from stpete@netten.net Sat Apr 11 11:06:20 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA12570 for Subject: Re: Heddon taper I've got a Heddon #115 Premier 8'6", 2F, 3/2. It's been recoated withvarnish by an oldtimer a long while back. Other than that, it's alloriginial. Bag, tube, etc. I understand that the #115 was the Model 20 grade blank made for Searsonly had fewer guides. Anyone out there with M.Sinclair's book,'Heddon, The Rod with the Fighting Heart', that can confirm this? Ihave only his 'Restoration' book. I'd be glad to take the taper, but you guys had better give me somepointers on taking tapers of existing rods with varying finishes. Also,if you average station readings on all flats (3 per station?) Whathappens if a guide is at the station? Let's hear your methods. I wantto contribute to this list but, I don't want to give you guys bum info. I also have an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker that I really like. I'd postthat one also if anyone wants it. Rick Crenshaw from flyfisher@brinet.com Sat Apr 11 11:08:31 1998 12:09:25 -0400 Subject: Re: digital caliper Terence Ackland wrote: Donald Yelton wrote: Robert S Williams wrote: Love my digital caliper, quicker to read. Be nice to see a digitaldepth gauge. They are available. So are digital micrometers. They also make themthat plug into computers. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com SPC in rodmaking, why not indeed?Terry Someone just needs to make the program to enter the stats into a taperprogram. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 11 11:18:11 1998 (205.236.248.141) Subject: Re: digital caliper Cris,STP is used in production manufacturing as as means of tracking qualityor thelack of.It has no practical use for us.Terry Chris Bogart wrote: Terry The SPC software demo is available from the Starrett web siteif you want to see the future of rodmaking fanaticism for accuracy. Unless you get a portable recording unit - you have to drag the computerintothe shop.The question I ask them now that you know all the stations of the stripsbothbefore andafter glueing and can plot it out 3 ways to sunday - then what? Do yougo toget the perfectzero tolerance graphs and ability to repeat it? We must remember the customer only sees the rod not the processelsewewould never eat sausage! Chris On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:44:25 -0400, Terence Ackland wrote: Regards Chris from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 11 11:28:43 1998 (205.236.248.141) Subject: Re: digital caliper Is it digital technology or vernier calipers that the freshwater 'salts' arelearyof?Terry J. C. Zimny wrote: Indeed they should be. But only if you're working in 10ths.John Zimny FLYROD777 wrote: My machinests at the Navy Machinest School are leary about digital. Just anopinion Mark Hallowell from flyfisher@brinet.com Sat Apr 11 11:31:45 1998 12:32:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Router bit Art Port wrote: Don,That's the concept I'm working off, but I don't have a shaper and I do havea router. The $200 custom jobbie starts to look like a steal when youcompare it to the price of a shaper AND the needed cutters!Still looking,Art Jesada has a good selection of router bit. I noticed several 60 d onesthat might do the job. Some of them have bearings for chamfering thatmight do what you want. They run about $36.50. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 11:45:33 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AE92C70152; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:47:14 MDT Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) At 10:43 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Thanks Jerry.... ...... Art At 09:44 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't think jerry Art;Shrubbery?? from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 11:51:13 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AFE315400BA; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:52:51 MDT Subject: Re: Router bit At 10:54 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:John,I'll keep in touch and let you know how my design turns out. Chatterwasn'tone of my worries..perhaps I'd better think this through some more on allcounts. Just remember to LET GO!! I almost didn't in a particularly stupidstunt on my radial arm saw a long while back, but I can still count to ten.Art Art;I built a similar set up and use a flush trimming bit and a wooden formmade with a 60 d router bit. Actually, it takes two forms the way I haveitset up, I will let you knowif and when I get it working right.John Channer Art;Don't worry about my fingers, I'm a carpenter and believe me, I know whento let go! Learned that the hard way a long time ago, still have all ten,but one of them won't straighten out any more. I built my horizontal routertable so my hands couldn't get near the cutter for that very reason. Thanks John(careful in Colorado)Channer from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 11:58:12 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28951 for Subject: Re: Router bit Don,I'm looking...I'm looking....(Is there a mantra tht might help?)Art At 12:28 PM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Art Port wrote: Don,That's the concept I'm working off, but I don't have a shaper and I dohavea router. The $200 custom jobbie starts to look like a steal when youcompare it to the price of a shaper AND the needed cutters!Still looking,Art Jesada has a good selection of router bit. I noticed several 60 d onesthat might do the job. Some of them have bearings for chamfering thatmight do what you want. They run about $36.50. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from anglport@con2.com Sat Apr 11 12:01:28 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29237 for Subject: Re: Router bit (JERRY) At 02:18 AM 2/22/98, you wrote:At 10:43 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Thanks Jerry.... ...... Art At 09:44 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:Hi Art ya it was Mike, list supremo, Biondo, and he answered but i don't think jerry Art;Shrubbery?? John,I dunno----can ya smoke it?Artps: I got a feelin' we're gonna have to take this off-list if it gets muchwackier. from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 12:03:51 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A2DBDD0152; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:05:31 MDT Subject: Re: Heddon taper At 11:02 AM 4/11/98 -0500, you wrote:I've got a Heddon #115 Premier 8'6", 2F, 3/2. It's been recoated withvarnish by an oldtimer a long while back. Other than that, it's alloriginial. Bag, tube, etc. I understand that the #115 was the Model 20 grade blank made for Searsonly had fewer guides. Anyone out there with M.Sinclair's book,'Heddon, The Rod with the Fighting Heart', that can confirm this? Ihave only his 'Restoration' book. I'd be glad to take the taper, but you guys had better give me somepointers on taking tapers of existing rods with varying finishes. Also,if you average station readings on all flats (3 per station?) Whathappens if a guide is at the station? Let's hear your methods. I wantto contribute to this list but, I don't want to give you guys bum info. I also have an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker that I really like. I'd postthat one also if anyone wants it. Rick Crenshaw Rick;You're right about the 115's, they were #20's with fewer guides andcheaperreel seat, the 125's were standard # 20's with different color thread. Withthe programs available these days you can make your measurements ascloseto 5" as you can and record the distance accurately for the ones that havea guide in the way and the program will figure out the 5" dimensions foryou. Check out Frank Stetzer's version of Hexrod thru Rodmakers, it even iscapable of deducting for varnish, but you have to enter how much. Whemyoumeasure, take all three flats and average.What line weight Pacemaker doyouhave, I'ld be interested in a 5 or 4 weight. I would also be interested inthe Heddon, I assume that the 2F is an HEH or D (5/6).John Channer from stpete@netten.net Sat Apr 11 13:38:25 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18749 for Subject: Re: Heddon taper John, The Heddon is for HDH or E, so I guess that rates it a 6 wt, but I findit throws a DT #5 well. I use it for multi-purpose fishing ontailwaters and have to make 20' to 50' casts depending on where I'mstanding and how high the water is. A DT#6 makes for better shortcasts. The Phillipson casts a DT#5 well, but I find the Wulff TT 5/6 to be thesuperior line for it. I'll take the tapers tonight or tomorrow and post by Sunday night. Rick from Millsx5@aol.com Sat Apr 11 14:16:36 1998 Subject: Test Having watched for a couple of months I wanted to see if I could get on.Hello to everybody.Mike Mills from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 11 14:27:57 1998 Subject: Re: RE:Heddon Parts Don,Bernard and I were very good friends and I spent a full day with himsittingin his kitchen talking about rod building, hunting and life in general justtwo days before he died. There are not many people like him in the worldandwhen they pass it is a great loss to us all. I miss him very much and thinkof him and his friendship often.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 11 14:32:36 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Heddon Parts Chris,Thanks I don't know what I did with his # but now I have it again. The lasttime I talked to Leon I was sure that he said he had all the bamboo stuffBernard had and I think he may have or knows who has the rest of thestuff.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 11 14:42:22 1998 Subject: John Channer/ Heddon rods John,I have a Petrie Special made by Heddon that I am looking to possibly sell. 9',3pcs21/2 ferrules. All pieces are the correct length and it looks like originalvarnish but professionally rewrapped. If you are interested let me knowandmake an offer. It is in a cardboard type tube with the original bag and Iwould say the rod is in VG condition. It has been fished as the handle isdirty from sweat and fish juice but will clean up nicely.Bret from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 16:21:38 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AF4528011C; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:23:17 MDT Subject: Re: John Channer/ Heddon rods At 03:41 PM 4/11/98 EDT, you wrote:John,I have a Petrie Special made by Heddon that I am looking to possibly sell.9',3pcs21/2 ferrules. All pieces are the correct length and it looks like originalvarnish but professionally rewrapped. If you are interested let me knowandmake an offer. It is in a cardboard type tube with the original bag and Iwould say the rod is in VG condition. It has been fished as the handle isdirty from sweat and fish juice but will clean up nicely.Bret Bret;While I'ld love to buy it, I'm afraid the current debt to income ratioaround this house won,t allow for it:i.e. I'm broke and haven't evenfigured out how much of what I don't have Uncle Sam is going to want. Outof idle curiosity, what is a Petrie Special, that is one I haven't heardof. I have a #14 HCH or D 9' 3 pc. 2 1/2 F with a featherweight reel seatthat I used for smallmouth fishing back in Illinois, nice rod forstreamers, but too heavy for the trout fishing I do here in Colorado.I wasgoing to sell it thru one of the dealers, but 9' rods are such a drag onthe market these days I figure I'll just hang on to it.If I have anygrandchildren, maybe it will be worth something to them.Good fishin' toyouJohn Channer from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Apr 11 16:52:22 1998 ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:52:14 +1200 Subject: Re: Router bit At 03:31 PM 21/02/98, you wrote:At 09:57 PM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote: Just regarding the discussion on routers and 60 degree angles . I picked upa really interesting book in a garage sale last week .It is called "freshwater tackle " by John Knight , and published in 1949 . The name meansnothing to me but may to some of you and there is a very interesting andapparently informed discussion on cane rods . One of the more interesting comments is the following : " Here again theproduction boys take a short cut . They do not have time to work to closetolerences . Instead their rotary cutters are set at 61 and a half degrees .This ensures a snug fit at the surface of the rod , even though the insideof the rod depends upon a padding of glue to fill up the gaps " Given that many of the old "production" rods were very good rods and thisbook suggests else where that " there are very few handmade rodsavailabletoday " these comments may be relevent to those considering some formofbeveller . regards ian kearney Deleted AJ,Al is asking a LOT more of his machine than I wished to ask ofmine.if and when I get it working right.John Channer Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from mstevens@ptdprolog.net Sat Apr 11 17:09:22 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Heddon taper Hello, I collect Heddon rods and have about 20 of them in various models andlengths. I can provide tapers when I get the time if interested. I have amodel 20 7 1/2' 2 pc. Featherweight, 8' 2pc Folsum 1522, and 8' 3pc Model10. In the longer rods I have Model 35 and 50's and one Model 60 Deluxe in8 1/2' 2F. Please let me know if any of these tapers would be of interest. I also have several project rods for sale if interested. Email for list. Thanks, Mike Michael StevensRR 1 Box 307CEffort PA 18330 610 681 5670 mstevens@ptdprolog.net Stevens Sight & Tool CoMaker of fine sights for antique single shot target rifles Collector of Heddon and other bamboo flyrods and casting rods. HeddonRiverRunt Spooks and Coxe baitcasting reels. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 11 19:53:29 1998 Subject: Re: Re: John Channer/ Heddon rods John,I was told that a Petrie Special was made for a store as one of their rods.Unfortunately I obtained this rod after Bernard Hills passed away so Icouldnot ask him about it. Bret from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sat Apr 11 20:00:35 1998 Subject: Re: Test Hello Mike, Welcome aboard. Dave L. from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 11 20:06:23 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A3ED9F0118; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:07:57 MDT Subject: Re: John Channer/ Heddon rods At 08:52 PM 4/11/98 EDT, you wrote:John,I was told that a Petrie Special was made for a store as one of their rods.Unfortunately I obtained this rod after Bernard Hills passed away so Icouldnot ask him about it. Bret Bret;Your previous post piqued my curiosity, so I looked thru Mike Sinclair'sbook and discovered that the Petie Special was one of their many traderods.Unfortuneately the book doesn't specify what quality level this rodis, it was their only one for Petrie Sporting Goods in Madison, Wisc. Maybethe wrap colors might match one of their standard models and all they didwas to letter it for Petrie, this was common on many of their trade rods.Ifyou are interested in Heddon, Mike's book is very informative.John Channer from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 11 20:13:39 1998 Subject: Re: Re: John Channer/ Heddon rods John,This rod is as good as any Heddons that I have seen. The cane is straightandit has the standard reelseat of theirs plus the ferrules and everything elseis of Heddon quality.Bret from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 20:27:34 1998 Subject: Re:RE: Heddon taper RO>I've got a Heddon #115 Premier 8'6", 2F, 3/2. It's been recoated withRO>varnish by an oldtimer a long while back. Other than that, it's allRO>originial. Bag, tube, etc. RO>I understand that the #115 was the Model 20 grade blank made forSearsRO>only had fewer guides. Anyone out there with M.Sinclair's book,RO>'Heddon, The Rod with the Fighting Heart', that can confirm this? IRO>have only his 'Restoration' book. It's a #20 with fewer guides and cheaper reelseat per "Heddon, The Rodwith the Fighting Heart" by Michael Sinclair. OBTW, this book islight-years ahead of his earlier restoration book in both proofreadingand editing. An excellent book for Heddon collectors. RO>I'd be glad to take the taper, but you guys had better give me someRO>pointers on taking tapers of existing rods with varying finishes. Also,RO>if you average station readings on all flats (3 per station?) WhatRO>happens if a guide is at the station? Let's hear your methods. I wantRO>to contribute to this list but, I don't want to give you guys bum info. The 8'6" #17 (Black Beauty) 2F in the archives should have the sametaper. RO>I also have an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker that I really like. I'd postRO>that one also if anyone wants it. RO>Rick Crenshaw from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 20:27:36 1998 Subject: RE:RE:Heddon Parts RO>Don,RO>Bernard and I were very good friends and I spent a full day with himsittingRO>in his kitchen talking about rod building, hunting and life in generaljustRO>two days before he died. There are not many people like him in theworld anRO>when they pass it is a great loss to us all. I miss him very much andthinkRO>of him and his friendship often.RO>Bret Bret, You should put in writing some of his rodmaking knowledge. Don from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 20:27:52 1998 Subject: Re:RE: Heddon taper RO>Hello, RO>I collect Heddon rods and have about 20 of them in various models andRO>lengths. I can provide tapers when I get the time if interested. I have aRO>model 20 7 1/2' 2 pc. Featherweight, 8' 2pc Folsum 1522, and 8' 3pcModelRO>10. In the longer rods I have Model 35 and 50's and one Model 60 DeluxeinRO>8 1/2' 2F. RO>Please let me know if any of these tapers would be of interest. RO>I also have several project rods for sale if interested. Email for list. RO>Thanks, RO>Mike Mike, How about stripping down the 7'6" #20 and give us the taper. I would be interested in this taper, even with the varnish. Does it havethe ferrule size marked on it? (I think there was both "0-3/4F" and1-1/2F two- piece rods) Also the 8' Folsom taper, if you get a chance. Don Burns PS - Mike's a good source for project rods. from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat Apr 11 20:31:25 1998 Subject: RE:Re: John Channer/ Heddon rods RO>John,RO>This rod is as good as any Heddons that I have seen. The cane isstraight aRO>it has the standard reelseat of theirs plus the ferrules and everythingelseRO>is of Heddon quality.RO>Bret John, Bret and all, Michael Sinclair can be reached at: Caneclinic@aol.com - it takes sometime to get a reply sometimes. I don't know if he picks up his mail eachday. He runs a rod restoration business besides writing his books. Ipassed on Jerry's site to him some time ago and asked him to joinrodmakers too. Maybe he's out there lurking? Don Burns from lblan@provide.net Sat Apr 11 23:14:28 1998 Subject: RE: Router bit If you can find suitable shaper blades, CMT sells a 1/2" shank arbor thatwill allow the use of shaper blades in a router. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, April 11, 1998 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Router bit Has anyone tried using a shaper/molder? The kind that cut molding usepre- shaped blades so you might be able to cut the 60 d all in one pass. Donald Yeltonflyfisher@brinet.com from anglport@con2.com Sun Apr 12 08:30:08 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA15595 for Subject: RE: Router bit At 12:13 AM 4/12/98 -0400, you wrote:If you can find suitable shaper blades, CMT sells a 1/2" shank arbor thatwill allow the use of shaper blades in a router. Larry,Now THAT's something that might be workable. I never considered such asolution. This is some powerful brain-trust we have going here. Now, how about we work on ways I could knock another $2000 off myincome taxes?Seriously, thanks,Art from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Apr 12 11:46:57 1998 Subject: Re: RE:RE:Heddon Parts Don,I plan on going up to his daughters house soon to sit down with her andpossibly work on an article for The Bamboo Rod magazine. I am sure thatshehas many photographs of her dad in his shop and at Heddon. I wish that Iwould have kept notes when I was with him but I didn't. All I can go onwiththis is what I remember him showing me and I will have to sort out whatis hisand what I learned elsewhere.Bret from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Apr 12 19:36:08 1998 Subject: Blue Ridge Rodmakers Bamboo BBQ To All In response to those who wanted an mid atlantic / eastern / southernget together for rodmakers this year: I have finally seen daylight from taxes and rods to finalize plans 16/17 May 1998. It just happens this coincides with excellentsmallmouthfishing on the South Fork of the Shenandoah River and prime time on the Shenandoah National Park mountain streams for native brook trout. So bring your fishing gear - good news is a 5 day out of state licence is about$6 and you don't need a trout stamp or National Forest stamp for either fishing - best bargin around! I will have fly tying vise set up for thosewhoare pattern challanged or just want to try some new ideas. This is an informal affair for rodmakers to get together and enjoygood rods, fishing, and refreshments. The shop will be open and benchesset up for those who want to bring gadgets and things to share. The riverisabout 250 yrd walk / drive from the shop and there is a public fishing lake parking across the street. On Saturday I will be starting about 0800 to get things open for everyone and it will go until ???? On Sunday it is fishing in the AM andat 2:00 PM my friends at the Shenandoah Lodge is giving me the useof the Lido Deck and their "big Bertha" BBQ grill plus the assistance oftheir head chief who always out does himself. I will have sodas and beer campgroundsat the Shenandoah River Outfitters who are less than a half mile furtherdowntheroad the number is 540 743-4159 to make reservations - I have most ofthe otherplaces to stay linked off my homepage (www.shentel.net/canerod). So for those who plan to come please send me an email off thelistserveso I can plan to have enough for everyone. Directions and other info tofollow. Please pass the info on to anyone who is a rodmaker and would like toattend. Regards Chris from FLYROD777@aol.com Sun Apr 12 21:43:09 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Well the way I feel aafterr 22 years it may very well be the machinest Mark H from FLYROD777@aol.com Sun Apr 12 21:44:03 1998 Subject: Re: digital caliper Jerry How close are you? Be nice to have someone else local to touch baseswith. Local 847-688-1330 or 2429 (W) Mark H from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Mon Apr 13 00:35:08 1998 mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA22237 +0000 Subject: Thanks to all for froe info Thanks to all who responded! George W. Bourke (NOT Barnes)aka irish-george@worldnet.att.net from stpete@netten.net Mon Apr 13 00:46:36 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA14150 for Subject: Phillipson Pacemaker taper Here is the taper for my Phillipson Pacemaker. 8'0", 3/2, casts a WulffTT 5/6 very nicely. Obviously has a swelled butt into that funkylooking but very comfortable Phillipson full wells grip. tip 32" 0" .0705" .08510" .09615" .10920" .12525" .13730" .149 mid3" .1755" .18410" .19315" .20620" .21525" .22430" .229 butt3" .2625" .26610" .28915" .29420" .30622" .345 this is the swell just before the wrap at the grip. Varnish on the rod plus one re-dip, so figure from there on thethickness. Rick from stpete@netten.net Mon Apr 13 00:54:42 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA14339 for Subject: Taper for Heddon Premier #115 Taper is taken from Heddon Premier #115, 8'6", 2F, 3/2, for HDH or Eline. tip 34-1/2"0" .0835" .10110" .11015" .12320" .14025" .15030" .16733" .173 mid3" .1745" .17810" .19515" .21020" .22525" .23730" .25133" .258 butt3" .2865" .29010" .30015" .31920" .32623" .422 this is the dramatic swelled butt of this rod before itgoes into the grip Varnish is old original plus one "hand(finger) applied job by some oldtimer who knew this was just a damn good tool. So figure your varnishthickness from there. Rick from bairdart@burgoyne.com Mon Apr 13 03:12:28 1998 Subject: Senate fly rod To list, I would like to know if anyone has any info on a "Senate" flyrod, 9' three piece, w/ 2 tips. Any help would be appreciated. ThanksBob B. from bairdart@burgoyne.com Mon Apr 13 03:12:29 1998 Subject: Senate fly rod To list, I am trying to find out any information i can about a "Senate"fly rod. Can anyone supply info. Thanks in advance Bob B. from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Apr 13 06:06:15 1998 Subject: RE:Senate fly rod RO>To list, I would like to know if anyone has any info on a "Senate" flyRO>rod, 9' three piece, w/ 2 tips. Any help would be appreciated. ThanksRO>Bob B. Bob, The Sinclair restoration book has a H-I Senate rod listed during the1930's. Spec's are listed as round cane, NPB reelseat, NPB ferrules withrolled welts. Agate stripper and tungsten steel snake guides. Green/goldwraps and broad green bands on butt & mid. Gold intermediates. Cost newwas $12. Sound close? Don Burns from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon Apr 13 07:58:32 1998 Subject: Re: Thanks, Jerry Snider No problem. Wish that it had copied better!Jerry Snider.At 11:36 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote: Jerry,Just got the Sci Am photocopy this am. Appreciate it. If I can ever returnthe favor let me know.Art from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 13 08:10:04 1998 (205.236.248.80) Subject: Re: heat treatin Coffey, Patrick W wrote: check out the heat treating at this web side. Their explanation is thesame as what Walton Powell told me (steam rupture). This is a prettyinteresting way of heat treating. http://www.gtii.com/paulyoung/ Patrick Pat,the lumber industry has been kiln drying their product for years. Steamplasticises wood fibers, I cannot imagine fibers getting torn apart.I was once told that Young developed flaming to hide the badly markedcanethey were forced to pick over during the embargo.An interesting site, even though most of it is a crock.Terry from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Apr 13 08:58:06 1998 Subject: RE:RE:Heddon Parts RO>Don,RO>I plan on going up to his daughters house soon to sit down with her andRO>possibly work on an article for The Bamboo Rod magazine. I am surethat sheRO>has many photographs of her dad in his shop and at Heddon. I wish thatIRO>would have kept notes when I was with him but I didn't. All I can go onwitRO>this is what I remember him showing me and I will have to sort outwhat is hRO>and what I learned elsewhere.RO>Bret Bret, Maybe Michael Sinclair could help you with details. He just completedhis Heddon book and must have good notes on Bernie. Try to contact himat Caneclinic@aol.com. Don Burns from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Apr 13 13:15:16 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Swelled butt forms List, I'm making a new set of forms and would like to build ina taper for swelled butts. Do any of you have anysuggestions for dimensions? I'm just guessing, but wouldthink about .150 to .225 over a space of 5 inches. Therehas to be someone with better ideas than a guess.Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd from bob.kossler@TANDEM.com Mon Apr 13 13:23:24 1998 conn01.mis.tandem.com (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: the big bamboo Finally a first post. I have been following the various threads on thislist for months and now have a question.How do I order my first batch of cane from Andy Royer. The quality ofhis can sounds compelling and would having never purchased, this seems to be as good a reference as it gets.Any information would be helpfull.Thanks in advance,BobBamboo Flyrod Builder WannaBe. -----Original Message-----From: Robert Clarke [SMTP:rclarke@eou.edu]Sent: Thursday, April 09, 1998 5:49 PM Subject: Re: the big bamboo I also have been pleased with the cane Andy has sent. I appreciatethiseven more when I here Terry say similar things. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Terence Ackland Subject: the big bambooDate: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 8:50 PM About 6 weeks ago I received a shipment of 2 bales of cane from myregular supplier which has been getting worse over the years, whichIwas lead to believe was the Chinese adjusting to a free marketeconomy.A. Royer phoned me a couple of weeks ago and suggested I try some ofhisbamboo. the freight from the west coast was about $75 so I decidedthatI should order 4 bales asthe shipping was about the same as for one bale.I received my Royer cane on Friday and got to unwrap 2 bales and Imustadmit that this is the best cane I have ever seen in the 15 years ofrodmaking.I remember a year or so ago when Royer first appeared on the listwith apromise of supplying good bamboo, I made a comment on how can a newkidon the block be in a position to supply unmarked can whenestablishedcompanies cannot. The cane I received is thick, yellow and unmarked. I have some thatmustbe 4in dia, incredible.I feel great, all is not lost, perhaps there is good bamboo outthere.Terry from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Apr 13 15:15:03 1998 Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms In a message dated 4/13/98 6:23:36 PM, you wrote: Harry - I have not spent a lot of time on swelled butts, so take this as my$.02, and not much else. First, I would put the swell further up the groovethan the .150 mark. A lot of light line tapers have dimensions less than.300at the end of the action length. My own homemade forms have a swell of about .030. I doubt that even thatmuchswell is necessary to stop the action, my feeling is that anything morethan10% is showing off. BUT, I have nothing against showing off, and considertheextreme butt swells you see on some T&T's or Leonards to be marks ofrodbuilding skill. Before I attacked my forms any further, however, Iwouldmake a 60 degree groove in a board with my router table and plane someteststrips to see if I was going to run into any problems. from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon Apr 13 15:52:43 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1);Mon, 13Apr 1998 16:54:05 -0400 Subject: Ferrule Producers I was wondering who manufactures ferrules (in mass quantities). I am not curious who resales them. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance. Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Apr 13 17:38:33 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with ESMTP id XAA05867 for; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:42:26 +0100 Subject: Handles I was looking at one of Tom Moran's very nice handles the other day. Itfeatures inset bamboo strips (running fore 'n aft) in an otherwise all corkhandle filler: these to take the pressure from the reel bands, and toprevent the bands from biting into the cork. Does anyone have any advicetooffer on the making and fitting of these two bamboo strips. The corks on the same handle were also nicely shaped (milled/sanded) toaccommodate the reel foot. I've tried to do this on my own cork fillers,but end up tearing the cork. Can anyone offer insight on the best way toachieve the shape. Tom's were very accurate, and very smooth, and clearly(unless he drinks less than me) the result of machine work (maybe a veryhigh speed miller with fine sandpaper insteed of a cutter). Tom spent some time at Thomas and Thomas, but I belive the rod I sawpre- dates that period. John Cooper (England) from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon Apr 13 17:38:33 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with ESMTP id XAA05864 for; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:42:24 +0100 Subject: Stoner fluting Is anyone milling semi-hollow rods with Winston-like fluting for his ownuse (obviously not for sale, which would infringe the patent, and infuriateWinston). I invented this a few years ago, on paper, and was verypissed-off to find that Winston (Stoner) had invented that particularwheellong before me. John Cooper (England) from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 13 17:59:27 1998 (205.236.249.185) Subject: Re: the big bamboo Try royera@sprynet.comKossler, Bob wrote: Finally a first post. I have been following the various threads on thislist for months and now have a question.How do I order my first batch of cane from Andy Royer. The quality ofhis can sounds compelling and wouldhaving never purchased, this seems to be as good a reference as it gets.Any information would be helpfull.Thanks in advance,BobBamboo Flyrod Builder WannaBe. -----Original Message-----From: Robert Clarke [SMTP:rclarke@eou.edu]Sent: Thursday, April 09, 1998 5:49 PM Subject: Re: the big bamboo I also have been pleased with the cane Andy has sent. I appreciatethiseven more when I here Terry say similar things. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Terence Ackland Subject: the big bambooDate: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 8:50 PM About 6 weeks ago I received a shipment of 2 bales of cane from myregular supplier which has been getting worse over the years, whichIwas lead to believe was the Chinese adjusting to a free marketeconomy.A. Royer phoned me a couple of weeks ago and suggested I try some ofhisbamboo. the freight from the west coast was about $75 so I decidedthatI should order 4 bales asthe shipping was about the same as for one bale.I received my Royer cane on Friday and got to unwrap 2 bales and Imustadmit that this is the best cane I have ever seen in the 15 years ofrodmaking.I remember a year or so ago when Royer first appeared on the listwith apromise of supplying good bamboo, I made a comment on how can anewkidon the block be in a position to supply unmarked can whenestablishedcompanies cannot. The cane I received is thick, yellow and unmarked. I have some thatmustbe 4in dia, incredible.I feel great, all is not lost, perhaps there is good bamboo outthere.Terry from Nodewrrior@aol.com Mon Apr 13 18:08:55 1998 Subject: Re: Handles/cork reelseats I've considered having a grinding stone cut to do just that. I can't find ahooded sliding band seat a la Garrison on the market. My guru HomerJenningswho worked with Moran while in the U.K. once mentioned seeing a routerbittool with a dozen or more blades. But I don't remember if it was in Moran'sshop. Next time I talk to him, I'll mention it... Rob from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon Apr 13 18:11:01 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1);Mon, 13Apr 1998 19:12:30 -0400 Subject: Quick Survey if You Have Time? I hope some of you will take the time to respond to this short survey. A buddy of mine and I are in a consumer behavior class in which we have to write a paper on a product and target market. Since there is no public primary research available, I thought I might do some of my own with the help of you all. Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond. I. What motivates consumers to purchase a bamboo fly fishing rod? ie: Function, Aesthetic,Social,and Situational II. What are the attitudes or perceptions associated with individuals fly- fishing with bamboo? III. How are individuals purchasing bamboo fly fishing rods?ie: Shows, Retail Stores, Magazines IV. Who is competing for the bamboo rod demand? V. Where do you look to purchase when you are interested in buying an item related to fly-fishing, Do you prefer the large retailers such as Orvis or do you look to smaller morespecialized outfits. VI. Advantages/Disadvantages of a bamboo rod from Orvis (or anyone similar) versus an independent maker such as yourself? VII. Describe a typical first time bamboo rod purchaserie: Income Level, Social Class, Occupation, Age, Urban/Rural, Lifestyles, Brand Loyalty, Price Sensitivity.Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 13 18:12:14 1998 (205.236.249.185) Subject: Re: Stoner fluting A patent provides protection for 17 years from the date of being grantedin theUS. So you can whistle and flute as much as you like.Cooper wrote: Is anyone milling semi-hollow rods with Winston-like fluting for hisownuse (obviously not for sale, which would infringe the patent, andinfuriateWinston). I invented this a few years ago, on paper, and was verypissed-off to find that Winston (Stoner) had invented that particularwheellong before me. John Cooper (England) from RVenneri@aol.com Mon Apr 13 18:51:44 1998 Subject: Re: Handles/cork reelseats Rob,I have not made a hooded seat as of yet but am willing to try. Why don'tyousend me a drawing or a sample set and I will see what I can do.Bob V Venneri's Custom Components21 Chuck Hill RoadSaugerties N Y 12477914 246 5882 from bairdart@burgoyne.com Mon Apr 13 19:31:50 1998 Subject: Re: Senate fly rod Don, Your description is right on the mark. Thank you for the reply. Bob B. flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>To list, I would like to know if anyone has any info on a "Senate" flyRO>rod, 9' three piece, w/ 2 tips. Any help would be appreciated. ThanksRO>Bob B. Bob, The Sinclair restoration book has a H-I Senate rod listed during the1930's. Spec's are listed as round cane, NPB reelseat, NPB ferrules withrolled welts. Agate stripper and tungsten steel snake guides. Green/goldwraps and broad green bands on butt & mid. Gold intermediates. Cost newwas $12. Sound close? Don Burns from channer@hubwest.com Mon Apr 13 20:06:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A6D318500C2; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:07:31 MDT Subject: Re: Handles At 08:23 PM 4/13/98 +0100, you wrote: I was looking at one of Tom Moran's very nice handles the other day. Itfeatures inset bamboo strips (running fore 'n aft) in an otherwise all corkhandle filler: these to take the pressure from the reel bands, and toprevent the bands from biting into the cork. Does anyone have any advicetooffer on the making and fitting of these two bamboo strips. The corks on the same handle were also nicely shaped (milled/sanded) toaccommodate the reel foot. I've tried to do this on my own cork fillers,but end up tearing the cork. Can anyone offer insight on the best way toachieve the shape. Tom's were very accurate, and very smooth, andclearly(unless he drinks less than me) the result of machine work (maybe a veryhigh speed miller with fine sandpaper insteed of a cutter). Tom spent some time at Thomas and Thomas, but I belive the rod I sawpre- dates that period. John Cooper (England) John;I just finished shaping a cork grip yesterday and I started out with theSupr-sander that Jerry mentioned( look in the tools list in Rodmakers) Iwent thru the three grits you get with it and they rough shaped the cofkvery quickly, then I followed up with sandpaper down to 400 grit. I useemery cloth in medium and fine first as they seem to last longer, then goto 220 and 400. Sanding belts for a belt sander work well,too. I've triedrasps and they work o.k., but anything like a woodturning chisel will justblow your cork apart. My .02.John Channer from anglport@con2.com Mon Apr 13 20:11:35 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA25147 for Subject: Re: Ferrule Producers Jon,I used to deal directly with Rodon in Newark (NJ) and Ron (I think it wasBensley) then sold the business to Cortland (up by you). If they don't MAKEthem they must have farmed the job out. BTW, Rodon's Super-z males wereINCREDIBLY oversized. I can't TELL you how long I spent reducing theirdiameter to fit their females. I would buy ANYBODY's that were closer tospec if they were quality ferrules. Art At 04:52 PM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote:I was wondering who manufactures ferrules (in mass quantities). I am not curious who resales them. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance. from anglport@con2.com Mon Apr 13 20:30:34 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA26843 for Subject: Re: Handles Jon,Just saw one of his lovely rods this week for the first time. If it's anyconsolation, there are now two of us who can't figure how he does that!I'vebeen mulling it over for about 2 or 3 days; if I experience an epiphany I'llget back to you. Anyone else?Art At 08:23 PM 4/13/98 +0100, you wrote: I was looking at one of Tom Moran's very nice handles the other day. Itfeatures inset bamboo strips (running fore 'n aft) in an otherwise all corkhandle filler: John Cooper (England) from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon Apr 13 21:57:35 1998 Subject: RE:Re: Senate fly rod RO>Don, Your description is right on the mark. Thank you for the reply. BobB. Bob, Not mine, Michael Sinclair's - from his "Bamboo Rod RestorationHandbook". Also, sounds like the quality of one of my dad's old Montague Sunbeams.They didn't even bother to plane/sand the cane's enamel away - hence the"round" cane. Don B. from FLYROD777@aol.com Mon Apr 13 22:47:29 1998 Subject: Montague Rod Info Needed Need help. Picked up a Montague Fly rod to restore for a customer tonight.It is a 1940 version of the"Flash". It is 9' and in good shape. Does anyoneknow what type of glue they used than and opinions as to fish it or not. Oneferrule will need replacement on the butt section. Yellow brass cracked. Canthese ferrules still be purchased? Origional price was $6.25 and my bestguess is was in the medium to low range. Any suggestions, ideasopinions? Mark Hallowell847-688-1330 from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Apr 13 23:06:24 1998 Subject: Re: Stoner fluting In a message dated 4/13/98 3:46:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,jcooper@interalpha.co.uk writes: Is anyone milling semi-hollow rods with Winston-like fluting for hisownuse (obviously not for sale, which would infringe the patent, andinfuriateWinston). The patent was from 1951, and all rights have long since expired. Whichmeans you can make the fluted rods for sale legally. I talked to a patentlawyer about this - No, I wasn't thinking of selling fluted rods, I wastryingto locate the patent and the subject of me making them legally came up.In fact, if the patent is current, you cannot even make them just for yourself without paying the patent holder for the privilege of doing so. Darryl Hayashida from SBDunn@aol.com Tue Apr 14 00:25:31 1998 Subject: Re: Grand silk order Me too. from channer@hubwest.com Tue Apr 14 00:29:11 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A4738600C8; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:30:27 MDT Subject: Re: Montague Rod Info Needed At 11:46 PM 4/13/98 EDT, you wrote:Need help. Picked up a Montague Fly rod to restore for a customertonight.It is a 1940 version of the"Flash". It is 9' and in good shape. Does anyoneknow what type of glue they used than and opinions as to fish it or not. Oneferrule will need replacement on the butt section. Yellow brass cracked.Canthese ferrules still be purchased? Origional price was $6.25 and my bestguess is was in the medium to low range. Any suggestions, ideasopinions? Mark Hallowell847-688-1330 Mark;The biggest favor you can do yourself is to get a copy of MichaelSinclair's " Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook", it is a must have foranyonerestoring/refinishing production rods.I doubt that you will be able to findany original brass ferrules any more, but Anglers Workshop sells chromeplated brass ones cheap, replace both of them.If you can't see any purpleglue lines from recorinol glue then it is probably glued withurea-formaldehyde(Urac or Casco Resin glue)Unfortuneatly, it will cost yourcustomer more to have this rod refinished, even if you don't replace theferrules, than it is worth, even if he could sell it, a refinished Flash ismaybe worth $100. 9' production rods are not worth much these days andmostof the dealers won't even take them.Another.02 fromJohn Channer from channer@hubwest.com Tue Apr 14 01:33:37 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A3902020136; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:34:56 MDT Subject: taper suggestion Guys;I hope this doesn't sound like a complaint, because it isn't, I reallyappreciate the tapers that have been posted on the list, they are veryinformative, but I would like to suggest that when an old rod is measuredthat the measurements be taken with the rod assembled and starting atthetip. There have been some tapers posted with the numbers going from thebutt forward and some starting over at each ferrule and I am never sure ifI am getting them right when I enter them into Hexrod.I am sure this willmake things a little easier for everyone. Thanks again to all those thathave gone to the trouble to post tapers.John Channer from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Apr 14 06:37:27 1998 Subject: RE:Montague Rod Info Needed RO>Need help. Picked up a Montague Fly rod to restore for a customertonight.RO>It is a 1940 version of the"Flash". It is 9' and in good shape. DoesanyonRO>know what type of glue they used than and opinions as to fish it or not. OnRO>ferrule will need replacement on the butt section. Yellow brasscracked. CRO>these ferrules still be purchased? Origional price was $6.25 and mybestRO>guess is was in the medium to low range. Any suggestions, ideasopinions? RO>Mark HallowellRO>847-688-1330 Mark, I've seen some late-era (1950's?) Montagues with purple glue lines(resorcinol glue), but most of the earlier rods must've used hide glue.I'd repair a delamination in a Montague with Titebond II glue. As tofishing with a Montague - there's a few good ones and there's some#%$#@%$#%$#. The only way to get a new ferrule that exactly matches the Montague'sstyle would be to steal one off a junker rod. Finding a undamagedferrule will be hard, most of them seem to have cracks. You might wantto epoxy the old one on and overwrap it with thread. If you do all theferrules it won't look bad. If you want a cheap replacement ferrule, the Ni-plated brass ferrules onthe market are of a different shape and you'll find that you'll need tobuild up the male ferrule's cane with some thread. Not a good solution,IMHO. I've been looking for a source of Montague ferrules and have never foundone. Don Burns from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Tue Apr 14 06:45:02 1998 Subject: RE: Stoner fluting John,I'm not sure but I think his patent has expired.So flute away! -----Original Message-----From: Cooper [SMTP:jcooper@interalpha.co.uk]Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 2:21 PM Subject: Stoner fluting Is anyone milling semi-hollow rods with Winston-like fluting for hisownuse (obviously not for sale, which would infringe the patent, andinfuriateWinston). I invented this a few years ago, on paper, and was verypissed-off to find that Winston (Stoner) had invented that particularwheellong before me. John Cooper (England) from bairdart@burgoyne.com Tue Apr 14 07:55:57 1998 Subject: Re: Senate fly rod Don, The Senate I have is very well built. The round comes from beingmilled, not leaving the enamel intact. All of the nickle silver appts. arevery well done. Some even have some engraving. As for the overall quality,Iwould say it is a far cry from the many H-I's that i have ever seen andworked on. Bob B. flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>To list, I would like to know if anyone has any info on a "Senate" flyRO>rod, 9' three piece, w/ 2 tips. Any help would be appreciated. ThanksRO>Bob B. Bob, The Sinclair restoration book has a H-I Senate rod listed during the1930's. Spec's are listed as round cane, NPB reelseat, NPB ferrules withrolled welts. Agate stripper and tungsten steel snake guides. Green/goldwraps and broad green bands on butt & mid. Gold intermediates. Cost newwas $12. Sound close? Don Burns from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 08:57:30 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Swelled butt forms Tom and Harry,Is it possible to reposition the strip into the deeper part of theform and derive a swelled butt that way? Or ,if there's no more room ontheform do the strips up to the swell and reset the forms? It would be alittletricky at first but I bet it could be done. Regards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 08:57:36 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Router bit John,This farm boy lost 5 in a corn picker some years ago so I take my shoesoffif I need to count above 6(5+ the paw). I'm considering a lathe - shouldtakecare of the other 5. I still play the guitar, tie flies, fly fish, ride horsesas well as plane a few rods between training beagles and mowing grass. IguessI can't complain-too damn busy.Hank (I forgot to let go of the corn stalk) Woolman. from destinycon@mindspring.com Tue Apr 14 09:27:45 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit At 09:56 AM 4/14/98 EDT, you wrote:John,This farm boy lost 5 in a corn picker some years ago so I take my shoesoffif I need to count above 6(5+ the paw). I'm considering a lathe - shouldtakecare of the other 5. I still play the guitar, tie flies, fly fish, ridehorsesas well as plane a few rods between training beagles and mowing grass. IguessI can't complain-too damn busy.Hank (I forgot to let go of the corn stalk) Woolman. Wow! I'm only missing the end of one (joiner) and boogered up another(table saw). Feeling lucky I can still count to twenty-one.Gary from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 09:33:23 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Ferrule Producers Jon,Try Bailey Woods'. His address has changed and you'll have to get it offthe rodmakers web page.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 09:33:39 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Montague Rod Info Needed Mark,I have to agree with John-also, back in '48 I bought a couple ofMontagues(Rapidans, I think) and 20 years later I let my niece use 'em andthey both snapped above the ferrule. This may have been due to poor careon mypart but I thought I'd caution you for what it's worth.Regards,Hank. from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Apr 14 09:40:47 1998 Subject: Re:RE: Senate fly rod RO>Don, The Senate I have is very well built. The round comes from beingRO>milled, not leaving the enamel intact. All of the nickle silver appts. areRO>very well done. Some even have some engraving. As for the overallquality, IRO>would say it is a far cry from the many H-I's that i have ever seen andRO>worked on. Bob B. Bob, Good to hear. I don't know if you've got NS ferrules - for your sake I hope so. Butsome of the H-I rods had workable plated ferrules, much thicker brassthan the paper- thin brass on many Montague rods. Don from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Apr 14 09:50:42 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit FISHWOOL wrote:I still play the guitar, tie flies, fly fish, ride horsesas well as plane a few rods between training beagles and mowing grass.I guessI can't complain-too damn busy.Hank (I forgot to let go of the corn stalk) Woolman.Hank,As long as you don't have your life defiled by anything as insipid as"meaningful employment", I'd say you're one of the winners.A few of us were standing on the porch of the Clubhouse one night ofthe last Grayling get-together, and the talk turned to getting out ofthe rat-race. (I don't know if you've noticed, but the rat is gettingfaster and smarter these days.) Anyway, it was interesting to note thatnot only do these people all share a love of cane rods, but they allhave well formulated escape plans. I'm not clever enough by half to haveplanned the way they had, but I won't drop in the harness, either. I'mgoin' over the wall...Reed from anglport@con2.com Tue Apr 14 10:22:43 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23890 for Subject: Re: Router bit Hank,I had a real eye-opener a few years back. I had always assumed that thosetypes of errors were made by idiots (myself included--I almost took afingeroff in a printing press when in college), until a friend of mine, the mostcareful man I ever knew, took most of 4 fingers off in a table saw he hadused successfully for over 40 years! My first thought was; It really CANhappen to anyone.Be well,Art ps: You're absolutely right about that lathe. I've heard all sorts of storesabout how you can tell machnists by their lack of a right index-finger- tipdue to flicking a bit off a turning piece of work. At 09:56 AM 4/14/98 EDT, you wrote:John,This farm boy lost 5 in a corn picker some years ago so I take my shoesoffif I need to count above 6(5+ the paw). I'm considering a lathe - shouldtakecare of the other 5. I still play the guitar, tie flies, fly fish, ride horsesas well as plane a few rods between training beagles and mowing grass. IguessI can't complain-too damn busy.Hank (I forgot to let go of the corn stalk) Woolman. from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Tue Apr 14 10:23:37 1998 CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU(IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Tue, 14 Apr 98 11:23:04 EDT Subject: hollow-built rods A (perhaps) elementary question: How does one prevent the fluting of a hollow-built rod from fillingup with glue? (Which, I would submit, adds mass and therefore inertiawithout significantly increasing he modulus of elasticity necessary toovercome the additional mass.)Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan University from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Apr 14 10:30:22 1998 Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms Hank - It might be possible to play around with the forms as you suggest,butwhere you have a steep taper in a short distance, it wouldn't take much ofanerror to give you an open glue seam. Most, if not all of the rods withextremebutt swells I have seen have been made with a machine, and that is why Iadvised Harry to proceed with a bit of caution. It is a topic that interestsme, however, and one of these days I am going to do some experimentation. from dhaftel@att.com Tue Apr 14 10:30:38 1998 8.6/EMS-1.2sol2) Server InternetMail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) 11:30:27-0400 Subject: RE: Router bit/rat race 4.0.995.52 Reed, This rat is stuck deep in the maze, no cheese in sight!!! I'd like tohear some of those plans! Dennis Haftel -----Original Message-----From: Reed F. Curry [SMTP:rcurry@top.monad.net]Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Router bit FISHWOOL wrote:I still play the guitar, tie flies, fly fish, ride horsesas well as plane a few rods between training beagles and mowing grass.IguessI can't complain-too damn busy.Hank (I forgot to let go of the corn stalk) Woolman.Hank,As long as you don't have your life defiled by anything as insipid as"meaningful employment", I'd say you're one of the winners.A few of us were standing on the porch of the Clubhouse one night ofthe last Grayling get-together, and the talk turned to getting out ofthe rat-race. (I don't know if you've noticed, but the rat is gettingfaster and smarter these days.) Anyway, it was interesting to note thatnot only do these people all share a love of cane rods, but they allhave well formulated escape plans. I'm not clever enough by half to haveplanned the way they had, but I won't drop in the harness, either. I'mgoin' over the wall...Reed from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Apr 14 10:42:29 1998 Subject: Re: hollow-built rods In a message dated 4/14/98 3:28:31 PM, you wrote: Mark, This is anything but an elementary question. Take a look at thearticleon Powell in issue #1 of the Bamboo Rod. Look closely at the picture of thesemi-hollow cross section. It is fuzzy, but it looks to me like the cavityis1/4 filled with glue. Chris Bogart taught me a technique of using Epon epoxy, an scrubbing thestrips with a toothbrush to remove most of the glue. We glued up such arodwith great success. A test piece we glued and then split showed noencroachment into the cavity from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Apr 14 11:18:57 1998 Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms In a message dated 4/13/98 11:22:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,fbcwin@fsbnet.com writes: I'm making a new set of forms and would like to build ina taper for swelled butts. Do any of you have anysuggestions for dimensions? I'm just guessing, but wouldthink about .150 to .225 over a space of 5 inches. Therehas to be someone with better ideas than a guess. I took a look at my Colorado Bootstrap forms last night. It hasa short section near one end with set screws 2 1/2 inchesapart instead of 5 inches so that you can do a swelled butt.It won't go from .150 to .225 in 5 inches. I was able to make it go from .150 to .210, and I possibly could make it swell more, but I don't do swelled butts and I didn't want to permanently tweak my forms. There was another interesting way to swell a butt that I saw. Instead of extra bamboo in the swell, it had rosewood inserts between the splines. Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Apr 14 11:24:24 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit/rat race In a message dated 4/14/98 8:35:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,dhaftel@att.comwrites: This rat is stuck deep in the maze, no cheese in sight!!! I'd like tohear some of those plans! "The only thing about being in the rat race is that if you win,all you proven is that your a bigger rat than everyone else." Can't remember who originally said it, but the quote sticks in my memory. Darryl from Jon.A.Poling-1@tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 14 11:25:37 1998 11:25:32-0500 11:25:31-0500 11:25:30-0500 Subject: RE:Heddon Parts Hello Bret.Thank you very much for the information about Leon.I will try tonight to contact him. Again, thank you.Sincerly,Jon Poling At 04:55 AM 4/11/98 -0600, you wrote:RO>Jon,RO>There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsRO>stuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.RO>Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allRO>the stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and I usedtoRO>have his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callRO>information at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you could gethis#. IRO>not sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. IfyouRO>don't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it foryou aRO>he lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.RO>Bret Bernard Hills was Heddon's last head rodmaker. I too would be interested in that phone #. Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com orcanerods@aol.com from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Tue Apr 14 11:32:43 1998 (METDST) Subject: Warning - Bad preserver Hi european rodmakers! Warning - i think the color preserver from "Elettra-Sport" (Italy) KK 1is (sorry) really sh....!I (try) use it two or tree times, but it never works fine. It`s tothick,like a soup. I tried it with acetone as thinner, but it worked only forseveral minutes - then it was thicker than before! Regards Stefan from thramer@presys.com Tue Apr 14 11:40:57 1998 0000 Subject: Montague Ferrules I ran into the Montague ferrule problem 8-10 yrs ago. It was animportant rod for the family so I machined a set out of nickel silverbar stock. The ferrules were designed to be easily made with tube anddrawing, they were quite intricate to reproduce. And expensive.A.J.Thramer from bdavid@umich.edu Tue Apr 14 11:45:46 1998 with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:45:44 -0400 Subject: Re: RE:Heddon Parts LAA11523 John, Here is Leon's Number Leon F Hanson Phone : 313-459-2993 Our area code has since changed to 734... But i think that 313 may stillwork.. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------David A. BerrieOracle Programmer/DBAUniversity of Michigan Medical CenterAnn Arbor, MI 48109-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jon Poling 04/14 1:25 PM >>>Hello Bret.Thank you very much for the information about Leon.I will try tonight to contact him. Again, thank you.Sincerly,Jon Poling At 04:55 AM 4/11/98 -0600, you wrote:RO>Jon,RO>There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsRO>stuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.RO>Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allRO>the stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and I usedtoRO>have his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callRO>information at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you could gethis#. IRO>not sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. IfyouRO>don't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it foryou aRO>he lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.RO>Bret Bernard Hills was Heddon's last head rodmaker. I too would be interested in that phone #. Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com orcanerods@aol.com from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Tue Apr 14 12:40:37 1998 R8.00.00) Subject: Anglers Workshop Does anyone have a current URL or a phone number for Anglers Workshop. Thanks Mick from anglport@con2.com Tue Apr 14 13:11:01 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07155 for Subject: Re: Anglers Workshop Mick,www.anglersworkshop.com siteinfo@anglersworkshop.com e- mail360-225-9445 for orders360-225-6359 cust. serv.These are from '97 catalog. Hope you weren't asking 'cause you tried themand they're dead!Use 'em in good health!Art At 10:05 AM 4/14/98 -0800, you wrote: Does anyone have a current URL or a phone number for Anglers Workshop. Thanks Mick from saweiss@flash.net Tue Apr 14 13:39:05 1998 Subject: Re: Anglers Workshop ----Original Message----- Subject: Anglers Workshop Does anyone have a current URL or a phone number for Anglers Workshop. Mick,I recently got their March catalog.http://www.anglersworkshop.comtel: 1(360)225-6359 Steve from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Apr 14 14:29:05 1998 Subject: Re: Router bit/rat race In a message dated 4/14/98 9:25:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: "The only thing about being in the rat race is that if you win,all you proven is that your a bigger rat than everyone else." That's what I get for rushing and not reading what I wrote. I shouldhave written: "The only thing about being in the rat race is that if you win,all you've proven is that you're a bigger rat than everyone else."^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^I need a proper usage checker along with a spell checker. Darryl from fer@surfplanet.com Tue Apr 14 15:41:12 1998 bigfoot.cesatel.es (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA14774 for; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:42:58 GMT Subject: Re: Warning - Bad preserver gespliesst@bluewin.ch wrote: Hi european rodmakers! Warning - i think the color preserver from "Elettra-Sport" (Italy) KK 1is (sorry) really sh....!I (try) use it two or tree times, but it never works fine. It`s tothick,like a soup. I tried it with acetone as thinner, but it worked only forseveral minutes - then it was thicker than before! Regards Stefan Thanks Stefan, this is Fernando Rada from Spain. It's funny, do you knowwhat KK means in spanish?Regards. from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Tue Apr 14 15:57:33 1998 R8.00.00) Subject: Re[2]: Anglers Workshop --simple boundary Thanks all.My catalog seems to have disappeared. As you might guess my wife won't"fessup". Maybe I should consider making the credit card bill disappear too. Mick ____________________Reply Separator____________________Subject: Re: Anglers WorkshopAuthor: ----Original Message----- Subject: Anglers Workshop Does anyone have a current URL or a phone number for Anglers Workshop. Mick,I recently got their March catalog.http://www.anglersworkshop.comtel: 1(360)225-6359 Steve --simple boundary (ccMailLink to SMTP R8.00.00); Mon, 13 Apr 98 23:44:25 -0800 intergate.sduhsd.k12.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA23634 for Subject: Re: Anglers Workshop --simple boundary-- from Jon.A.Poling-1@tc.umn.edu Tue Apr 14 16:18:41 1998 16:18:38-0500 16:18:37-0500 16:18:37-0500 Subject: RE:Heddon Parts Thank you very much, Dave!Jon Poling At 12:45 PM 4/14/98 -0400, you wrote:John, Here is Leon's Number Leon F Hanson Phone : 313-459-2993 Our area code has since changed to 734... But i think that 313 may stillwork.. Dave --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------David A. BerrieOracle Programmer/DBAUniversity of Michigan Medical CenterAnn Arbor, MI 48109-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jon Poling 04/14 1:25 PM >>>Hello Bret.Thank you very much for the information about Leon.I will try tonight to contact him. Again, thank you.Sincerly,Jon Poling At 04:55 AM 4/11/98 -0600, you wrote:RO>Jon,RO>There was a gentleman named Bernard Hills that had bought up all ofHeddonsRO>stuff when he was working for Heddon and he had a lot of that kind ofstuff.RO>Unfortunately Bernard passed away a few years ago and Leon Hansonbought allRO>the stuff that Bernard had. Leon lives in Plymouth Michigan and Iused toRO>have his phone # but I can't find it anymore. I am sure if you callRO>information at either 248-555- 1212 or 313-555-1212 you couldget his#. IRO>not sure of the prefix as they have changed them around as of late. IfyouRO>don't find Leons # let me know and I will ask my brother to get it foryou aRO>he lives close to him. Or possibly Wayne or Ron Barch has it.RO>Bret Bernard Hills was Heddon's last head rodmaker. I too would be interested in that phone #. Don Burnsflyfisher@cmix.com orcanerods@aol.com from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Apr 14 18:40:07 1998 Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:38:59 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, TSmithwick wrote: Hank - It might be possible to play around with the forms as you suggest,butwhere you have a steep taper in a short distance, it wouldn't take muchof anerror to give you an open glue seam. Most, if not all of the rods withextremebutt swells I have seen have been made with a machine, and that is why Iadvised Harry to proceed with a bit of caution. It is a topic thatinterestsme, however, and one of these days I am going to do someexperimentation. The last rod I made I swelled the butt just by winding out my wooden form untill I got the right taper. I had to make a fine adjustment to the form involving adding an extra 2 adjustment screws between the normal ones at 5" centres but that's the nice thing about making them myself.Worked fine and there are no gaps as a result. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Apr 14 18:45:44 1998 199819:45:40 -0400 Subject: Re: hollow-built rods Mark That question was answered at Roscoe by Tom Smithwick doing a joint demo of hollowing and gluing and then split the test section open.If you do it right - it does not fill up. Also Per Brandon has a similarsection he cut open that he displays. Chris A (perhaps) elementary question: How does one prevent the fluting of a hollow-built rod from fillingup with glue? (Which, I would submit, adds mass and therefore inertiawithout significantly increasing he modulus of elasticity necessary toovercome the additional mass.)Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan University from bairdart@burgoyne.com Tue Apr 14 18:49:21 1998 Subject: Re: Senate fly rod Don, The ferrules, wind check and the reel seat, are all NS. Like I said itsnotlike any H-I that i have ever seen. Bob B. flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Don, The Senate I have is very well built. The round comes frombeingRO>milled, not leaving the enamel intact. All of the nickle silver appts.areRO>very well done. Some even have some engraving. As for the overallquality,IRO>would say it is a far cry from the many H-I's that i have ever seenandRO>worked on. Bob B. Bob, Good to hear. I don't know if you've got NS ferrules - for your sake I hope so. Butsome of the H-I rods had workable plated ferrules, much thicker brassthan the paper- thin brass on many Montague rods. Don from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 19:06:57 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Router bit Reed,I'm not sure I'm out of the rat race. Marcia and I are running 5 4session fly fishing schools this month and guiding in between. I think wehave2 days in the month not spoken for. I'm not complaining 'cause that's whatwedo. It helps to keep the wolf from the door.May's just as bad but June gets better- TTBBQ!Regards,Hank.P.S. Hope we'll see you at Greyrock. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Apr 14 19:07:43 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Anglers Workshop Mick and Art,I used 'em this morning and they worked-I just got the '98 cataloguewiththe same numbers.Hank. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Apr 14 19:29:57 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms Tom, Hank, Tony, and others -- Thanks for the help!Harry from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Apr 14 19:32:44 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Warning - Bad preserver Fernando,Watch your mouth. KK from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Apr 14 19:32:54 1998 Subject: Re: Senate fly rod RO>Don, The ferrules, wind check and the reel seat, are all NS. Like I saiditsRO>like any H-I that i have ever seen. Bob B. What the heck - must of slipped out the back door? I've got a '20's or early '30's 7'-something H-I (3/1) that's aninteresting rod too. Quality isn't as good as yours, but how many 7'4" -7'6" three piece rods did H-I make? The 3 rod sections all differ by +/-1/4" and so I know mine's got normal H-I quality built-in. Don from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue Apr 14 19:34:08 1998 Subject: Re: Anglers Workshop RO>Mick and Art,RO> I used 'em this morning and they worked-I just got the '98 cataloguewitRO>the same numbers.RO> Hank. Am I the last one without the '98 catalog? Don B. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Apr 14 19:43:04 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Router bit/rat race One suggestion I can make to you guys is don't open a fly shop and thinkthisis a dream come true as it will surely turn into a nightmare. I tried itbecause I wanted to get out of construction and own a fly shop boy what amessthat business turned out to be.Bret from FLYROD777@aol.com Tue Apr 14 21:10:48 1998 Subject: Montague Rod Help Just want to say thanks to all that helped me. It will help me in myrecommendation. Mark Hallowell from richjez@enteract.com Tue Apr 14 22:07:06 1998 0000 (147.126.253.18) Subject: Re: Router bit Talking about the TBBQ, when is it. I bug ate my hard drive last week andthe drive had to be reformatted to save it. All was lost. If somone lets me know whne it is, I will make it again. Rich Jezioro At 08:06 PM 4/14/98 EDT, you wrote:Reed,I'm not sure I'm out of the rat race. Marcia and I are running 5 4session fly fishing schools this month and guiding in between. I think wehave2 days in the month not spoken for. I'm not complaining 'cause that's whatwedo. It helps to keep the wolf from the door.May's just as bad but June gets better- TTBBQ!Regards,Hank.P.S. Hope we'll see you at Greyrock. from richjez@enteract.com Tue Apr 14 22:07:13 1998 0000 (147.126.253.18) Subject: Re: Quick Survey if You Have Time? 1. My first fly rod was a telescoping metal one. My mother got me a heddon from a garage sale. It was a major improvement. I bought a fenwickgraphiteand is was nice but the bamboo has a much more sensitive feel. I fish forrelaxation and there are podns with bluegills that are nearby. Withbamboo,I can feel thier fins working. No so with graphite or my metal one. 2 I am not sure if you are asking my perception ot that of others. Formyself. I have tried a number of rods at grayrock and discovered the rengeof differences that can be made into a bamboo rod. I like that I can make arod to suit my tastes and situation. As for others precptions, they seem to see bamboo as quaint but old. New,even the hexagraphite is good and cool. 3. Since I cannot affore new ones, garage sales, flea markets, and auctionsare my sources. I bought one at a gun show too. 4. I am not sure what you are asking. If it is what other materials carcompeting with bamboo, the large manfuactures have the advertizingmoney consumer who is taught and believes newer, bigger, faster, is better. 5. I avoid the big name houses when possible. Use smaller places like likelocal stores of mail order like anglers workshop. 6.The flexability of the indenpendent maker is an advantage. Orvis couldprice a rod lower and still make money buit they have the name and yuppiedollars so as PT Barnum said, There is....... 7. You got me here. I haven't sold rods and am the only one of my friendswho like bambee, so I don't know. Rich Jezioro At 07:10 PM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote:I hope some of you will take the time to respond to this short survey. A buddy of mine and I are in a consumer behavior class in which we have to write a paper on a product and target market. Since there is no public primary research available, I thought I might do some of my own with the help of you all. Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond. I. What motivates consumers to purchase a bamboo fly fishing rod? ie: Function, Aesthetic,Social,and Situational II. What are the attitudes or perceptions associated with individuals fly- fishing with bamboo? III. How are individuals purchasing bamboo fly fishing rods?ie: Shows, Retail Stores, Magazines IV. Who is competing for the bamboo rod demand? V. Where do you look to purchase when you are interested in buying an item related to fly-fishing, Do you prefer the large retailers such as Orvis or do you look to smaller morespecialized outfits. VI. Advantages/Disadvantages of a bamboo rod from Orvis (or anyone similar) versus an independent maker such as yourself? VII. Describe a typical first time bamboo rod purchaserie: Income Level, Social Class, Occupation, Age, Urban/Rural, Lifestyles, Brand Loyalty, Price Sensitivity.Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from Ragnarig@aol.com Wed Apr 15 00:29:56 1998 Subject: Re: Swelled butt forms In a message dated 98-04-14 12:25:03 EDT, you write: Darryl Is this the guy who carries those rosewood splines all the way back to thereel seat? Goes to a lot of shows? Interesting. Davy from anglport@con2.com Wed Apr 15 08:06:41 1998 admin.con2.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA25598 for Subject: Re:Mystery rod pix Bret,Did you ever get those pictures? I sent them last Weds. If they promptmorequestions, fire away.Art from bairdart@burgoyne.com Wed Ap