from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Mon May 11 13:02:46 1998 (may beforged)) Subject: Re: Garrison Terry, John, A.J., et al. Engineers design, not build, per specifications set forth by MarketingDepartments. Marketing types want what they don't have to sell. Theyalso want a one size fits all / one size does all product. This iswhere the complexity comes in. Also Engineering is given the task of designing the product so that itcan be manufactured in a "Cost Effective" (read cheap) manner. Theproduct must also be reliable (last a day longer than the warranty) and work, and meet all agency standards for safety, capacity, andefficiency. Despite all our efforts, whatever we release for manufacture is stillnot what the purchaser wants, it's still too costly, it doesn't hold uplong enough, and someone will sue us because they misapplied it and itdoesn't work. (We didn't tell them in the Specification Sheet,Installation & Operation, or Owners Manual that it couldn't be used forthis purpose in this manner.) And it won't get somebody their rebate from some agency. Just my rant for today. Dick Fuhrman from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon May 11 13:53:00 1998 Subject: RE:sharpening blades RO>Would this still have an affect if I am using an on-the-stone bladeholder?RO>J. Snider. Guess not. Don from SalarFly@aol.com Mon May 11 14:00:04 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades In a message dated 5/11/98 7:39:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: 1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.5. Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go tothefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom. Hmmm...Quite perplexing. Having to establish the bevel angle every time wouldindicate not clamping the blade in the guide the same way from onesharpening session to another, but you use a squared jig to set theblade in the guide. Not being able to polish the bevel once you have it from the coarseside indicates your stone isn't flat, but you flatten your stone on a piece of glass. A dished stone can be the reason for both problems. Are you sure yourpiece of glass is flat? Or perhaps your blade is slipping in the guide asyou sharpen? Just a couple of guesses. Just curious, what type of sharpening guide do you use? Darryl Hayashida from rodsmiths@imt.net Mon May 11 14:00:17 1998 cu.imt.net(8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA02348 for ;Mon, 11 May Subject: Hand Mill Function Rodmakers After reading a number of comments on the listserver I feel that it isimportant for me to describe how my Hand Mill functions. I decided inthe beginning that I didn't want to defend its use over other methodsbecause everyone sure should use the method that they prefer. I feelthat in fairness to my Hand Mill that people should be able tounderstand what it does and how it works then make an informed decisionabout whether or not they want to use it. My intent was and still is toprovide an alternative method to normal hand planing. The carbide inserts that serve as the cutters are set at 90 degrees tothe bamboo which would normally mean that they are scraping the bamboowhen a cut is made. That would be true if the cutters had squarefaces. I tried cutters like this and they were hard to push and in myopinion weren't effective. I tried inserts with a radiused chip breakerwhere the chip breaker(a chip breaker is a small radius around the edgesjust inside the cutting surface) comes very near the cutting surface. These chip breaker inserts worked very well reducing the cuttingforce(pushing) at least by 50 percent. In effect, this chip breakergives a true cutting angle similar to a plane at the point where thebamboo is actually removed. When cutting a strip the bamboo cuts verycleanly and a beautiful shaving is removed that is the length of thebamboo strip. The edges of the bamboo are so sharp you have to becareful handling them. Carbide inserts with chip breaker forms are standard in the cutting toolindustry. Replacement carbide inserts cost at this time $12 per set. One set will do at least ten rods and the Hand Mill comes with threesets. They never need resharpening, they are merely replaced. The Hand Mill uses a push/pull adjustment every five inches to set ataper. It works very much like a planing form that hand planers woulduse. The adjustments are made using a dial indicator for accuracy. Ittakes between ten and fifteen minutes to readjust a new taper into theadjustable bed. It does take about ten extra minutes if you arechanging from cutting tip strips to butt strips(or vice versa) to changethe anvil. The finish butt and tip anvils that come with the Hand Millwill last a long time. You do not need a dedicated pattern for eachtaper that can only be used for that taper. When a taper pattern is set using the adjustable bed and the dialindicator, the Hand Mill will produce exactly the pattern that is set. There is not a lot of checking of strips that needs to be done. Youonly need to check the strip where your reference point is to make surethe strip is the correct size at your ferrule station or other point youchoose as your reference. The nice thing about the Hand Mill is that itwill reproduce one section after another to the exact same taper. Whenyou cut twelve strips for a two tip rod and glue them together theresulting sections are extremely consistent to each other. One problem that does occur with a milling type machine that needs to beaddressed is the anvil taper. Since the anvil supports the entirebamboo strip it is possible that the anvil will become too narrow tosupport the strip when a small width strip is cut. I addressed this byhaving eleven stations where bamboo strips are held down. This allowseach strip to be mounted so the tip end of strip is at the narrow end ofthe anvil. Therefore, the anvil always remains wide enough to supportthe strip. The top of the anvils are radiused to a 1 7/8 inch diameter. Thisradius helps hold the bamboo while it is being planed. This radius issupplied with the anvils. There is a special attachment supplied withthe Hand Mill that insures the top of the anvils are parallel to thebase providing exceptional accuracy to the Hand Mill. The anvils neverhave to be radiused again. One of the amazing aspects of the Hand Mill is how crooked of a bamboostrip it will cut perfectly. It will cut strips that a regular millingmachine or a hand plane in a planing form would ruin. There is a simplereason for this. With milling machines the strips are held as rigidlyas possible as close to the cutters as is feasible. If there is a jogin the bamboo the cutter cuts it off because it has so much powerleaving a nick or divot in the bamboo. With a hand plane it is similarbecause one side of the bamboo is held rigidly against the side of theplaning form and the plane will cut off the high spot. It is almostimpossible to cut a nick or divot out of a bamboo strip using the HandMill. With the Hand Mill the two cutting surfaces provide the location of thestrip. When the Hand Mill plane travels down the bed the bamboo stripis free to float back and forth on top of the anvil in front of thecutters. This allows the cutters to cut equally on both sides of thebamboo. The grain of the bamboo is followed perfectly with no crosscutting of the fibers. However, I do not advocate cutting crooked strips. When crooked bamboostrips, particularly butt strips, are glued up the resulting rodsections will be crooked or could have glue seams in the area of thesevere crooks. I recommend straightening the bamboo strips in the normal manner donebyhand planers using either a lamp or better yet a heat gun. It takes nospecial equipment to straighten strips for my Hand Mill. The Hand Mill will take a strip split out of a culm and put the bevel onthe strip automatically. As you continue planing the strip the anglesremain true while giving the strip the correct taper. It doesn't needstrips that are a special width or consistent in width. It is very easyto use because it doesn't require any special preparation of the strips.The only requirement which is the same for any other process is that thenodes are prepared so the strip lies flat on the anvil. With anyprocess the accuracy of the strip depends on how perfect the enamel sideis. One benefit of the Hand Mill is that with the purchase of differentangled cutters 4-, 5-, and 6-strip rods can be made on the same machine. I am excited to see all of the interest in making bamboo rods. I havebeen fortunate in my life to be involved in the rodmaking business. Ihave always had a great affection for fly rods from my early days offishing. Very few people have had the opportunity to design as manydifferent rods as I have. It has been a lot of fun being able to workwith fiberglass, graphite, and bamboo rod designs. Each one has its owncharacteristics and benefits. Bamboo provides a unique opportunity for amateurs and professionalsalike in that it is easy to work and can be done at home with relativelyinexpensive equipment. Fiberglass and graphite is so capital intensivethat designing rods using those materials is out of the question foreveryone except big companies. The Internet has provided a wealth of resources for the exchange of popularity and help to refine the process of actually making rods. There are so many different ways of looking at a given problem that anindividual can choose the method that suits him the best. I feel thatit is very important to keep the exchange of ideas going withoutcriticizing anyone for a particular viewpoint. Keeping the free flow ofinformation is the most important-I don't think I ever talked to arodmaker that I didn't learn something from. Thanks for your time. Tom Morgan from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon May 11 14:16:40 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: sharpening blades Jerry,No suggestions from me, because I had the same problem, exactly. Itried to use a King brand 1000/6000 combination waterstone. I do hopeyou getsome good answers, because at this point I have a useless $35 waterstone. Ifound that getting blades sharp was becoming such an obstacle that itreallytook some of the fun out of rod-building.I solved the problem entirely by using the sandpaper on glass method.A 2000 grit sandpaper from Wa***rt's automotive section gives me amuchsmoother edge in much less time than I was ever able to get from thewaterstone. I do lubricate the wet-dry paper with WD-40. With the MicroMeshsanding products available from Lea Valley, Jon Lintvet and others, you geteven sharper blades. Don't be afraid to give it a try. That mirror sharpedgetakes me only about 5 to 10 minutes. I'd like to ask a related question. Do any of you use the Lea Valleyangle setting jig? I'm afraid it doesn't get the angle EXACTLY the sameeachtime. Am I doing something wrong?Harry Boyd Jerry Snider wrote: Have tried several of the recommendations from the archives, but for methemost frustrating step is trying to get a really sharp plane blade. I DO getit, after about 4-5 hours of sharpening (3-4 blades). Even then, the bladeedge doesn't seem to be "true." Here is what I am doing (based primarily from the Cattanach book). Now, what am I doing WRONG?1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.5. Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go tothefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom.Gets quite frustrating, to the point that I am inclined to go to the"Scarey Sharp" sharpening system.However, I must admit, the blades finally do get sharp. Sorry to interfere with the more "philosophical" debates going on with a"real" question, but I do appreciate any help, flames or no!Jerry Snider. from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon May 11 14:27:44 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades Following Catannach every step of the way, including blade holder, on thestone sharpening, same wetstone, etc. I, too, thought that the stone mightbe "dished," and perhaps will be a bit more anal about it when I sharpenagain tonight. After aligning the blade in the holder, I even use amachinists square to be certain that the blade is absolutely square in theholder. I don't BELIEVE that the blade is slipping in the holder, butperhaps? Nor is the angle adjustment creeping, as far as I can discern.As far as the plate glass is concerned, it is a very thick plate glass used absolutely flat.It has to be something simple I am not keying in on, but DARN it takesforever to get a blade sharp. Thanks for the input.At 02:57 PM 5/11/98 EDT, you wrote:In a message dated 5/11/98 7:39:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: 1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.>> 5.Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go tothefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom. Hmmm...Quite perplexing. Having to establish the bevel angle every time wouldindicate not clamping the blade in the guide the same way from onesharpening session to another, but you use a squared jig to set theblade in the guide. Not being able to polish the bevel once you have it from the coarseside indicates your stone isn't flat, but you flatten your stone on a piece of glass. A dished stone can be the reason for both problems. Are you sure yourpiece of glass is flat? Or perhaps your blade is slipping in the guide asyou sharpen? Just a couple of guesses. Just curious, what type of sharpening guide do you use? Darryl Hayashida Jerry Snidere-mail: Sniderja@email.uc.eduhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon May 11 14:50:22 1998 Subject: Sharpening Over the weekend George Barnes mentioned the diamond paste and leatherwheelmethod of sharpening. Both of us have discussed this in the past, but forthenewbies, a photo is listed at:http:// members.aol.com/tsmithwickThe file is named sharpening.jpg. The method involves sawing a 5 3/4"circleout of a 2 X 6, truing it up, and contact cementing a leather strip to theOD.The wheel is then mounted to a motor or pillow block, and turns away from theblade. A block is clamped to the bench to hold the blade at the same angleevery time. It sharpens to a mirror polish in seconds.The leather is charged with diamond lapping compound if you are using acarbide tipped blade, a standard blade will sharpen well with Woodcraft'shoning compound. I haven't used a bench stone since George talked me intotrying this. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon May 11 14:54:41 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA5582 +0200 Subject: Sv: sharpening blades OAA10442 Gets quite frustrating, to the point that I am inclined to go to the"Scarey Sharp" sharpening system. Hi Jerry Go for the "Scary Sharp" system, it really works. regards Carsten from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon May 11 15:02:20 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Pictures Tom,I looked at your pictures and the binder looks great! What is thesharpening photo? It looks like a particle board disk with some sort ofbuffingcompound. Do you have another great innovation like the binder that willsolvemany of our sharpening woes?Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd TSmithwick wrote: Well here goes nothing. I think I successfully posted the binder photo at :http://members.aol.com/tsmithwickI would appreciate it if one of the people still having trouble wouldcheckthis out and let me know if it works. Thanks to Darryl for suggesting it.. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon May 11 15:06:43 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Sharpening Tom,Guess my timing for the post of about 5 minutes ago was just right tolet meput my foot in my mouth, again! I'm beginning to like the taste of shoeleather.Wonder if it would work on the outside of the wheel?Harry Boyd TSmithwick wrote: Over the weekend George Barnes mentioned the diamond paste andleather wheelmethod of sharpening. Both of us have discussed this in the past, but forthenewbies, a photo is listed at:http:// members.aol.com/tsmithwickThe file is named sharpening.jpg. The method involves sawing a 5 3/4"circleout of a 2 X 6, truing it up, and contact cementing a leather strip to theOD.The wheel is then mounted to a motor or pillow block, and turns away from theblade. A block is clamped to the bench to hold the blade at the sameangleevery time. It sharpens to a mirror polish in seconds.The leather is charged with diamond lapping compound if you are using acarbide tipped blade, a standard blade will sharpen well withWoodcraft'shoning compound. I haven't used a bench stone since George talked meintotrying this. from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Mon May 11 15:16:14 1998 MAINE.maine.edu(IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 11 May 98 16:15:22 EDT Subject: Re: matriarchs of the list Dear Terry, I'm not sure about the brain surgery analogy. Having workedin medical research on brain cancers at a prominent eastern university(butI never wore loafers), I didn't think it was all that complex really. Alltools, scalpels, drills and so on, were used straight out of the box, andwe never had to sharpen or fine tune any. We did have to measure drugdoses carefully, but not mix them, or have to deal with limited set times.All in all, I would have to say, building cane rods is more complex. Therewere times I did become concerned about "sets" emerging followingsurgery,but then I thought maybe I took out too much cortex or whatever. Andanyway if the patient could still breath etc., well that was what wasimportant. And like cane, if you knock a head, it shouldn't sound like adull thud; a well seasoned culm does have a nicer ring, but neither shouldbe dull. --Bob. At 12:01 AM 5/9/98 -0400, you wrote:Guys come and go from this list regularly and like any publication youcan repeat yourself frequently and it is not noticed. What bothers me isthat there is a matriarchal group on this list that tries to makerodbuilding too difficult. They hang around on a permanent basis givingadvice that really is so,so. There are products trying to being soldand reputations trying to be made.Rodmaking is not brain surgery and you do not have to be a selfprofessed master ukulele maker to make a rod first time that willastonish all your fishing pals. The only real way to learn is by yourown mistakes, you cannot hot house experience.Terry Robert M. Milardo17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581- 3128 from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon May 11 15:20:03 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon,11May 1998 16:21:26 -0400 Subject: Re: sharpening blades In my very limited experience sharpening blades I have found the biggest problem to be a dished stone. Even when I thought it was flat, it was still dished. I finally dropped to 100 grit sand paper and flattened the heck out of it. from then on, sharpening was quick and easy. You can tell if the stone is dished one way that I know of: While polishing, look and see if the edges of the blades are reaching the mirror finish we want. I really like the Veritas Honing Guide but not the angle set attachment. Take care, Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from destinycon@mindspring.com Mon May 11 15:35:57 1998 Subject: Re: Water Dennis,I am currently using an air tight copper pipe for rod parts and an airtight PVC pipe for my planing form. (I also dehumidify) Before puttingparts or form into their respective pipes I'll heat the PIPE with my heatgun. (easy does it on the PVC, I use high temp. PVC) The fact is that HEATDOES NOT REMOVE ANY MOISTURE from AIR. What it does do is expand theair,so you end up with the same grains of moisture per pound of air but yourpound of air takes up a larger volume. The bottom line is you have alessened the weight of the air inside the pipe thus reducing the amount ofmoisture in the pipe. Humidity alone does not tell the whole story. Ifyou do a Wet bulb-Dry bulb reading then use a Psychrometric Chart you candetermine the AMOUNT of moisture in the air- (grains per pound) not justtheHUMIDITY-(percentage of moisture the air can hold at a given temperture).I know this sounds convoluted but it is important to the understanding ofmoisture infiltration.Gary H. PS. I didn't make my self very clear on the air tight pipe. They arescrew-on caps with O-rings and when I heat the caps are off. At 11:33 AM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Hi List, Looks like this weather has just about everyone on edge this weekend. Ilive in "Joisey" and haven't seen the sun for about a week now... I was wondering how everyone keeps their strips of cane relatively dry,short of only building in the winter, while working on an individual strip.I think someone said they were using a 100 watt light bulb/dryingcabinetsetup to keep moisture from re-entering the bamboo during the finalplaningoperations. Has anyone tried using that kind of arrangement in their oven(I'm thinking of the heat gun type of oven here)? I just got my paws onsome stovepipe & end caps, and before I build, I may try to concoct aceramic light socket base for my "oven". Since the humidity is usuallyaround a zillion percent here I "gotta do something"! Any ideas? Dennis Haftel from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Mon May 11 16:46:35 1998 MAINE.maine.edu(IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 11 May 98 17:45:37 EDT Subject: Re: sharpening blades Jerry, I don't manage to get a really sharp blade each time I sharpen, butmost of the time it works. With 2 water stones (1,000 grit and ~4,000),ittakes a few minutes per blade. A big help for me a a good sharpening jigto hold the blade (I use the Veritas type, but their are others.) Thesecond big hlp was removing the need to reset angles. This meant makingajig that set the blade in the Veritas sharpening unit in the same way eachtime i use it. The jig is pictured on the instruction for Hock blades, andis included on their web site. (Although it does sound from your post thatyou may be using such a jig??) Bottom line is that it should take only afew minute per blade. (BTW, it took me many tries before I got down aconsistent and satisfactory system for myself.) Hope this helps. Bob. At 10:34 AM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Have tried several of the recommendations from the archives, but for methemost frustrating step is trying to get a really sharp plane blade. I DO getit, after about 4-5 hours of sharpening (3-4 blades). Even then, the bladeedge doesn't seem to be "true." Here is what I am doing (based primarily from the Cattanach book). Now, what am I doing WRONG?1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.5. Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go to thefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom.Gets quite frustrating, to the point that I am inclined to go to the"Scarey Sharp" sharpening system.However, I must admit, the blades finally do get sharp. Sorry to interfere with the more "philosophical" debates going on with a"real" question, but I do appreciate any help, flames or no!Jerry Snider. Robert M. Milardo17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581- 3128 from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Mon May 11 16:46:36 1998 MAINE.maine.edu(IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 11 May 98 17:45:38 EDT Subject: Re: sharpening blades Harry, Right, I started with the Veritas angling jig too. It's fine forapproximating an angle, say when initially setting up a blade, but not ok imprecise, or too difficult to get the same angle set repeatedly. Theoutcome is you end up increasing shapening time. I switched to thesimplier jigs described on this list and at the Hock web site. Bob. I'd like to ask a related question. Do any of you use the Lea Valleyangle setting jig? I'm afraid it doesn't get the angle EXACTLY the sameeachtime. Am I doing something wrong?Harry Boyd Robert M. Milardo17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581- 3128 from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon May 11 16:50:44 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Water Frank, If you go to an electrical supply shop and buy heavy duty bulbs instead oftheones you buy in the store they will last longer.Bret from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Mon May 11 17:51:00 1998 ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:50:50 +1200 Subject: Re: Binder for Amateurs John, I used two wheels off an old rotary hoe but i noticed that the localhardware shop had replacement weels ( about $7 nz)for a rotary motormowerwhich would of done just as well. I drilled through the outer frame of thewheel and put a bolt with a wooden knob on the outside for a handle . Itworks just fine . iank At 01:35 PM 11/05/98 -0400, you wrote:Don I am trying to build one of Tom's Binders and haven't had any luckfinding pulleys. Where did you find a hardware store that had the largeones, or the hand wheels you are going to use. An also looking for binderglace cotton binder twine. Any help would be appreciated. John ColeFather John's Custom RodsE-Mail jcole10@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from flyfisher@nextdim.com Mon May 11 18:05:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A2F32D800E8; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:00:03 PDT Subject: Re: sharpening blades Hi All, When I started to make bamboo flyrods I was told to get an oilstonethat had coarse on one side and fine on the other and just like my plane ithad to be leveled, so after getting it leveled I to had trouble getting therequired edge that you could shave with, so I then tried some thing otherrod builders said would not get sharp enough edge to do the job but Lo andBehold it works for me maybe not for everybody, so here it is. I use thestandard Stanley plane iron and an EZE-Lap diamond stone. My sharpeningsetup consists of a holder with raised rails to hold the stone the rails arelust high enough for my blade holder to not touch the stone. my bladeholderis 2"x 31/2" butt door hinge held open with a wedge of wood to make a 50degree angle. I use Stanley #91/2 plane with 20 degree angle, I sharpenfirst a 30 degree relief bevel then using my blade holder hone a 50 degreeangle for the cutting-scraping edge. I can sharpen my plane in about 1 to 2minutes and am ready to go at it again. I don't think that a plane blade hasto be sharp enough to shave with if was we should be using razor blades toshape our bamboo. Not having ever used Hock blade I have nothing tocomparewith the amount of planing between sharpening can be done. I know that Ihave almost worn out two plane irons in making 65 rods. Sincerely,Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com- ----Original Message----- Subject: Re: sharpening blades In my very limited experience sharpening blades I have found thebiggest problem to be a dished stone. Even when I thought it wasflat, it was still dished. I finally dropped to 100 grit sand paperand flattened the heck out of it. from then on, sharpening was quickand easy. You can tell if the stone is dished one way that I knowof: While polishing, look and see if the edges of the blades arereaching the mirror finish we want. I really like the VeritasHoning Guide but not the angle set attachment. Take care, Jon Lintvet12B College CircleIthaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558(607) 277- 9781www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from anglport@con2.com Mon May 11 18:40:31 1998 Subject: Re: milward binder Steve,The main reason I was considering switching to the Milward was thetwists Iwas getting in my sections from running them sequentially through thegarrison contraption. I (I guess prematurely)assumed that if the Milwardputboth wraps on at the same time, without spinning the blank, there wouldbeno possibility of twist. Am I going to have more trouble with the Milwardthan the old standby, or is it reasonably easy to tweak?Art At 12:53 PM 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote: It takes a little tweaking to get the tension right, but its anifty binder, isn't it? It was great fun to build, and very much impressed all of my friends. Ihad a heck of a time getting the twist out of the first tip that I boundwith it. It was so bad I was looking at it and considering a spiral formy second rod! Perseverance won out and another rung was added to theexperience ladder. I am glad you mentioned the two spools on one side being too tight. That is evidently what my problem was. Thank you. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon May 11 18:50:19 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Final ferrule fitting List, I know I'm always looking for shortcuts and that is an emotionalsubject onthe list right now. My question is this: Have any of you tried using abuffingwheel with tripoli or similar compounds for the final fitting of ferrules.(Makingmale fit to female) It seems to me that if you keep the ferrule moving youshouldnot get any flat spots. The amount you take off is miniscule. Your finishwillcertainly be smooth.I don't want to screw up expensive ferrules just trying this, so I'mlooking for help from those with more experience.Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon May 11 18:52:23 1998 Tue, 12 May 1998 07:52:01 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: sharpening blades On Mon, 11 May 1998, Jerry Snider wrote: Have tried several of the recommendations from the archives, but for methemost frustrating step is trying to get a really sharp plane blade. I DO getit, after about 4-5 hours of sharpening (3-4 blades). Even then, the bladeedge doesn't seem to be "true." Here is what I am doing (based primarily from the Cattanach book). Now, what am I doing WRONG?1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.5. Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go tothefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom.Gets quite frustrating, to the point that I am inclined to go to the"Scarey Sharp" sharpening system. However, I must admit, the blades finally do get sharp. I wonder if some of the people having dif with getting a killer edge on the plane irons need a short sharpen on a grinding wheel to re-establish the propper angle. I don't use a sharpening guide, I just hold the iron at the correct angle but as I sharpen this angle alters and so becomes slightly rounded and this is remidied with the grinding wheel. By using the wheel you wind up with a slightly concave sharpening face whichmeans you need to sharpen less steel so you get the edge faster. This *may* mean you loose the edge faster too but it only takes from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon May 11 18:57:50 1998 Tue, 12 May 1998 07:57:40 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: RE:sharpening blades It might if you're rounding the cutting edge as a result of the stone not being true.Tony Would this still have an affect if I am using an on-the-stone bladeholder?J. Snider. Jerry,Sounds like your stone is flat, but not square. (Just a guess)Don Burns /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon May 11 19:07:30 1998 Tue, 12 May 1998 08:07:14 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting On Mon, 11 May 1998, Harry Boyd wrote: List, I know I'm always looking for shortcuts and that is an emotionalsubjectonthe list right now. My question is this: Have any of you tried using abuffingwheel with tripoli or similar compounds for the final fitting of ferrules.(Makingmale fit to female) It seems to me that if you keep the ferrule movingyoushouldnot get any flat spots. The amount you take off is miniscule. Your finishwillcertainly be smooth.I don't want to screw up expensive ferrules just trying this, so I'mlooking for help from those with more experience.Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd That would work. I make my ferrules slightly over sized at the (what will become) tabs section to ease their cutting, glue them on then put the section back in the lathe and use 1000 grit to reduce the tab to the desired thickness and make a nice transition to the rod. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from Fishinstix@aol.com Mon May 11 19:40:41 1998 Subject: Art Shows Hi all;My wife and I attended a local art fest last weekend. As I was wanderingaround looking at all the works of the local artisans and craftsmen, itoccurred to me that this would be a good place to display some rods. Irealize that there would probably not be as many fishermen as at a fishingorsportsman's show, but I can picture all the husbands huddled around thelonerodmakers booth, watching as he created his masterpiece. Standing belowasign that reads "The Lost Art of The Mystical Bamboo Flyrod." (O.K. maybealittle carried away, but you get the point.) Has any of the moreestablishedrodmakers ever attempted or considered marketing their goods on the artshowcircuits? Believe me, I saw a lot of dumber things at that show! Mark Mills from jczimny@dol.net Mon May 11 19:43:26 1998 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting If you're really trying to take off metal in order to fit, then I wouldn't doit. It'simpossible to get it accurate. I often use a tool poste grinder fitted with averyfine diamond cratex wheel. This will do the job precisely. Hand fitting isthesafestway.J. Zimny Harry Boyd wrote: List, I know I'm always looking for shortcuts and that is an emotionalsubjectonthe list right now. My question is this: Have any of you tried using abuffingwheel with tripoli or similar compounds for the final fitting of ferrules.(Makingmale fit to female) It seems to me that if you keep the ferrule movingyoushouldnot get any flat spots. The amount you take off is miniscule. Your finishwillcertainly be smooth.I don't want to screw up expensive ferrules just trying this, so I'mlooking for help from those with more experience.Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 11 19:56:44 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AE8F23B0122; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:57:51 MDT Subject: 8'6" 4wt. Hi guys;I need to make an 8"6" 4wt. for a friend and I was wondering if it wouldwork better to stretch an 8" rod out to 8'6" or to take an8'6" 5 or 6 wt.and narrow the taper to 4wt. Have many tapers for either, but not for theone I need. Also, if anyone has any ideas about a good fast action taper touse for this, I would appreciate it. Thanks alot John Channer from thramer@presys.com Mon May 11 20:10:06 1998 0000 Subject: Re: 8'6" 4wt. john channer wrote: Hi guys;I need to make an 8"6" 4wt. for a friend and I was wondering if it wouldwork better to stretch an 8" rod out to 8'6" or to take an8'6" 5 or 6 wt.and narrow the taper to 4wt. Have many tapers for either, but not for theone I need. Also, if anyone has any ideas about a good fast action taper touse for this, I would appreciate it. Thanks alot John ChannerUse the 8 1/2 ' Granger taper. It was made for about a 5wt but the tipsare certainly delicate enough for a 4 wt.A.J.Thramer from lblan@provide.net Mon May 11 20:13:41 1998 Subject: RE: sharpening blades Jerry; I'd bet a dished stone. My experience was very similar to yours.WhenI bought my first diamond stone, the problem was obvious after just 3 or 4strokes. Now I can go from a fine diamond stone to a 6000 in just a coupleof minutes. BTW.... I *thought* I was being anal about the stonesflatness.... didn't work. The diamond stone trues the fine stone far betterthan sandpaper on a piece of 3/8" float glass. Take AJ's advice, buy adiamond stone. I wish I had discovered them a few waterstones ago. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 10:35 AM Subject: sharpening blades Have tried several of the recommendations from the archives, but most frustrating step is trying to get a really sharp planeblade. I DO getit, after about 4-5 hours of sharpening (3-4 blades). Even then, the bladeedge doesn't seem to be "true." Here is what I am doing (based primarily from the Cattanach book). Now, what am I doing WRONG? from rmoon@ida.net Mon May 11 20:21:14 1998 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting HarryYes I use this method. I use jeweler's rouge. A few precaautions. Thewheel has a tendency of pulling the rod shaft out of your hands if youuse too much pressure. Also the fit is very critical. A slecond or twotoo much buffing and you can overdo it. I think that it is far betterto use this technique than to use abrasives to fit. Strips of sandpaperjust do not give me any control Ralph from rmoon@ida.net Mon May 11 20:24:09 1998 Subject: Re: Art Shows Mark Been there done that. It was a fly fishing art show, however, andit seemed to fit.Ralph from cbogart@shentel.net Mon May 11 20:24:24 1998 May 199821:24:10 -0400 Subject: Re: 8'6" 4wt. JohnYou are at the point of no return - a good fast 8'6" 4 wt maybe like trying to make gold from lead - lots-o-luck. You may have to redefine some laws of nature to get that - or perform some slight of hand. Chris On Mon, 11 May 1998 18:55:11, john channer wrote: Hi guys;I need to make an 8"6" 4wt. for a friend and I was wondering if it wouldwork better to stretch an 8" rod out to 8'6" or to take an8'6" 5 or 6 wt.and narrow the taper to 4wt. Have many tapers for either, but not for theone I need. Also, if anyone has any ideas about a good fast action taper touse for this, I would appreciate it. Thanks alot John Channer from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Mon May 11 21:07:52 1998 Subject: updated web page ... Dear Rodmakers, It ain't much, I know ... but I have updatedmy webpage to show Hoshihara- sensei (my uglymug is hidden by the work-cap) teaching methe basics ... so far this is day 1 and day 2rod making ... more later ;-) http://members.tripod.com/~Nijimasu/Cane_Apprentice.html Cheers, Christian==Mr. Christian THALACKERc/o Asaina Michiko-san Otaru University of CommerceMatsugae 2-6-30 Otaru International Center047-0022 Hokkaido JAPAN Midori 3-5-21 Otaru047 Hokkaido JAPAN Email: Hokkaido_Flyfisher@yahoo.comHompepage: http://members.tripod.com/~Nijimasu/O.html_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from MasjC1@aol.com Mon May 11 21:38:33 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades It sounds like the stone is not flat. This weekend I had to flatten my stoneand it took a long while to get the dish out using 220 grid wet/dry paperinthe wet mode. Does the blade sharpen the same way each time? Does thecenteror edges sharpen first? Is it consistent each time you sharpen? Can youdetecta pattern that may indicate a dish in the stone? If it varies each time yousharpen then I would suspect the jig or alignment is not consistent. Mark Cole from cbogart@shentel.net Mon May 11 21:54:46 1998 WAA23782;Mon, 11 May 1998 22:54:40 -0400 Subject: Re: sharpening blades JerryLet me put one myth aside - you don't need a flat stone. It all dependsupon technique. I look upon a flat stone (let's here from the diamond stonefolks) like a perfect rod - a holy grail. Tom Smithwicks version of GeorgeBarnes power wheel does work . But you can get very good results from your existing waterstone with no $$ outlay. Last year using the same implements you have I demonstrated at Grayling resharpening in about1 minute time. I have refined the technique and have no problems. I alsodo not have ro re-grind my plane blade as some have suggested. I willgive the up dated to demo at the Grayling Sharp-O-Rama. Chris from MasjC1@aol.com Mon May 11 21:58:35 1998 Subject: Rod Straighting I'm getting close, only two tips left to plane, and I'm wondering aboutstraighting the rod after glueing. In the Sept/Oct '97 Planing Form CarlO'Connor shows a method of straighting a rod by placing it in the planingformand putting a flat steel bar on top. My question is this. How do you preventthe blank from gluing itself to the form, especially with epoxy glues? Icouldsee you ending up with the worlds heavyest rod. Mark Cole from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 11 23:29:23 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A04468F00D8; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:29:56 MDT Subject: Re: Rod Straighting At 10:56 PM 5/11/98 EDT, you wrote:I'm getting close, only two tips left to plane, and I'm wondering aboutstraighting the rod after glueing. In the Sept/Oct '97 Planing Form CarlO'Connor shows a method of straighting a rod by placing it in the planingformand putting a flat steel bar on top. My question is this. How do youpreventthe blank from gluing itself to the form, especially with epoxy glues? Icouldsee you ending up with the worlds heavyest rod. Mark Cole Mark;I tried this with Urac, just clean as much glue as you can off first. TheUrac set up too fast for it to get completely straight, but it did help. Iam going to try this method using Epon now that it is warm enough. I don'tthink glueing the rod to the form will be a problem if I get the excessglue off first, I have been able to get the Epon off using white vinegar.Otherwise, try the various methods in the books,experiment, and count ondoing at least some of the straightening with heat after the gluedries.Good luck!(do be carefull with the heat gun on the tips, they areeasy to scorch)John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 11 23:37:36 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A2551D30140; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:38:45 MDT Subject: Re: 8'6" 4wt. At 09:25 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:JohnYou are at the point of no return - a good fast 8'6" 4 wt maybe like trying to make gold from lead - lots-o-luck. You may have to redefine some laws of nature to get that - or perform some slight of hand. Chris Chris;After I made that entry I was looking thru some old catalogues, and IguessI should have asked for a med/fast taper. I don't want to defy any laws ofnature or end up with a pool cue.A.J;Thanks for the advise, I have heard nothing but good about Granger rods,and I would like to cast one anyway. I have a Phillipson 9' 5 wt., do yousuppose the actions are similar? Is the taper you are talking about the onein the archives, or the one in the last Planing Form? John Channer from teekay35@interlynx.net Mon May 11 23:48:13 1998 Subject: Grand River Bamboo Rod Builders Gathering, May 23-24, Fergus,Ont. The second "Grand Gathering" is shaping up well. We have over 60 peoplepre- registered, which is near what we can accommodate, although we canalways take a few more. The program features specific topics of interest to the experienced rodbuilder by well known rod makers such as John Long, John Zimny, GeorgeCarcao, Ron Barch, Harold Demarest, and others. Parallel and concurrentwith these are a sequence of "how to" workshops for the beginning rodbuilder. The conservation authority has promised to stock fresh trout inour casting pond, and for those who want to fish the Grand River for bigBrowns, we have local guides doing short seminars on what's hatching. Some of the locals attending the "Gathering" can probably be persuaded toshow you their favourite spots. Your Planning Team: Ted Knott, George Carcao, Carl O'Connor, RoyDeGiusti,Ray Blades, James Bond, Derek Strub, Gary Allen from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Mon May 11 23:49:22 1998 mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net(post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA29299 +0000 Subject: Re: J.C. Zimny's comments on "Final ferrule fitting" What is a "cratex" wheel? George Bourke----------From: J. C. Zimny Subject: Re: Final ferrule fittingDate: Monday, May 11, 1998 5:28 PM If you're really trying to take off metal in order to fit, then Iwouldn't do it. It'simpossible to get it accurate. I often use a tool poste grinder fittedwith a veryfine diamond cratex wheel. This will do the job precisely. Hand fittingis the safestway.J. Zimny from tbeckfam@pacbell.net Tue May 12 00:39:24 1998 mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id WAA05068 for Subject: Re: sharpening blades Chris Bogart wrote: JerryLet me put one myth aside - you don't need a flat stone. It alldependsupon technique. I look upon a flat stone (let's here from the diamondstonefolks) like a perfect rod - a holy grail. Tom Smithwicks version ofGeorgeBarnes power wheel does work . But you can get very good results fromyour existing waterstone with no $$ outlay. Last year using the sameimplements you have I demonstrated at Grayling resharpening in about1 minute time. I have refined the technique and have no problems. I alsodo not have ro re-grind my plane blade as some have suggested. I willgive the up dated to demo at the Grayling Sharp-O-Rama. ChrisChris,Can you post the instructions for your magic sharpening technique? Iwill not be attending the Sharp-o-Rama but would appreciate your input.ThanksTraver Becker from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 12 02:17:00 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A7AF67F00F0; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:18:07 MDT Subject: Re: sharpening blades At 03:25 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Following Catannach every step of the way, including blade holder, on thestone sharpening, same wetstone, etc. I, too, thought that the stone mightbe "dished," and perhaps will be a bit more anal about it when I sharpenagain tonight. After aligning the blade in the holder, I even use amachinists square to be certain that the blade is absolutely square in theholder. I don't BELIEVE that the blade is slipping in the holder, butperhaps? Nor is the angle adjustment creeping, as far as I can discern.As far as the plate glass is concerned, it is a very thick plate glass used absolutely flat.It has to be something simple I am not keying in on, but DARN it takesforever to get a blade sharp. Thanks for the input. Jerry;I was having the same sort of problem with my on the stone type holder. Ifound that after I sharpened on the 1000 side, that if I pulled the bladeback in the holder slightly(about 1/16, I made a mark on the guage with autility knife)then continued on the 6000 side, I got a much sharper blade.I suppose this is a microbevel of some sort, all I know is that it works butt section before doing the tips. Let me re-phrase that, I have twoblades and sharpen for each section, once for rough-in and once for finalplaning.I almost always get one stage per section per blade.The thing thathas helped me the most in keeping the blades going is to not let the bladetouch the form. I use metallic tape to make a slot , but only because I amtoo cheap to find a machinist to groove the bottom of my plane for me.Besides, there are as many machinists in Durango as there are 9 1/2's forsale (I had to mail order mine). When I run out of tape I will probablyslot my own plane with sandpaper. Hope you get your problem solved, lifeistoo short to spend it sharpening. John Channer from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue May 12 04:14:37 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades In a message dated 98-05-11 15:20:36 EDT, you write: Harry: The trick is to hold it up to a light while snugging the blade againstthe angle surface. When absolutely no light gets thru, the angle is exact.However, I use the squeeze type blade holder rather than the Veritaswhich maymake it easier to do. Just enough squeeze to hold the blade in place whilebeing easy enough to slide in the holder while adjusting.Regards,Richard from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue May 12 06:54:33 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades Larry Blan wrote: Take AJ's advice, buy a diamond stone. I wish I had discovered them afewwaterstones ago. Larry Blan I'd go one step further if I wanted true and permanent "flatness".Expensive,but the diamond impregnated steel plates are the "cat's meow". I'd stillfinish up with diammond paste on a leather wheel or belt though,especiallywith carbide tips. Have just finished rough planing nine strips and finishplaning eight of them with carbide and the planes are still singing theirlittle sharpness tune. George Barnes from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue May 12 07:47:05 1998 08:44:53 -0400 Subject: Re: sharpening blades Would LOVE to attend your Sharp-O-Rama at Grayling. Unfortunately(?) Iwillbe in Alaska at that time for three weeks fishing on the Arctic Graylingresearch project along the north slope.J. SniderAt 10:56 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:JerryLet me put one myth aside - you don't need a flat stone. It all dependsupon technique. I look upon a flat stone (let's here from the diamond stonefolks) like a perfect rod - a holy grail. Tom Smithwicks version of GeorgeBarnes power wheel does work . But you can get very good results from your existing waterstone with no $$ outlay. Last year using the same implements you have I demonstrated at Grayling resharpening in about1 minute time. I have refined the technique and have no problems. I alsodo not have ro re-grind my plane blade as some have suggested. I willgive the up dated to demo at the Grayling Sharp-O-Rama. Chris from wellive@ibm.net Tue May 12 07:47:59 1998 byout1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA88490 for; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:47:56 GMT Subject: Re: FW: bamboo milling machine The outermost fibers are probably the ones needing the *most* glue due totheirpart in rod performance. Hence the engineer thinks the rodmaker shouldbevelsuchthat the core is tight and the edges are open and well bonded. Nosuggestionshowever as to how to make it look good. :-) Barry H. Welliver john collins wrote: making the joint as tight as possible may become self defeating. Mostgluejoints needs some amount of space or the joint will fail due tostarvation.Historically glue joints were roughened prior to gluing. Modern theoryisthat this actually provides enough space for the initial glue up and is notthere to provide tooth for the surfaces. I know from personal experiencethat the best way to make an epoxy joint to fail is to make it too tight.Take that into consideration before making judgements. At 11:16 AM 5/11/98 -0600, you wrote: -----Original Message-----From: William_Lamberson@muccmail.missouri.edu Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 8:55 AMSubject: Re[2]: FW: bamboo milling machine Calculation of the cross-sectional area of bamboo in rods planed at61.5 degrees versus those planed at 60 degrees indicate that about3%of the bamboo is replaced by glue in the former. It appears that thepercentage is independent of the width of the hexagon. Is that somuch that we should be concerned? Bill Lamberson 3% of the cross-sectional area would not seem to be much, but it is theeffect that could make a difference. Replace 3% of the gas in your gastankwith water and see what happens. Replace 3% of the oxygen in yourbreathingair with chlorine and see what happens. Anyway, there are so many variables that affect the final outcome, thatMYpreference, as someone who is not concerned with this HOBBY as animportantsource of income is to reduce the potential negative effects that areundermy control. Concealing the glue joint doesn't make me a better craftsman. Makingtheglue joint as small as possible through careful planing is my goal.Whatever makes one happy. Steve Weiss from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue May 12 07:55:53 1998 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting At 18:49 11/05/98 -0500, you wrote:List, I know I'm always looking for shortcuts and that is an emotionalsubject onthe list right now. My question is this: Have any of you tried using abuffingwheel with tripoli or similar compounds for the final fitting of ferrules.(Makingmale fit to female) It seems to me that if you keep the ferrule movingyoushouldnot get any flat spots. The amount you take off is miniscule. Yourfinish willcertainly be smooth.I don't want to screw up expensive ferrules just trying this, so I'mlooking for help from those with more experience.Thanks in advance,Harry Boyd Harry, I do it too. A couple of things. 1] Make sure that you have enough movement around your grinder/bufferthatyou can manipulate the angle of the ferrule approach. Sometimes ferrulesare provided that are much larger near the cane end than the tip requiringan off-set of the ferrule approach to the buffer. 2] When the fit just barely starts - leave the ferrule alone for about 2hours for the male to temperature stabilize to the female. If you don't,the male will be too small as it shrinks from the heat of the buffer. And another thing - heat of compression will cause the female ferrule toenlarge if many fits are tried in succession. The heat shrinkage thing willapply here too. What you will notice right off is the incredible amount of file marks onthe males when you polish. These will mostly disappear. The ferrulesprepared this way should last longer as the ridges from the sanding/filingprocess are removed allowing even wear of all the male slide rather thanjust the ridges. Don from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue May 12 08:02:53 1998 Subject: Thanks for the advise Thanks to all who responded with ideas & suggestions re blade sharpening.To clarify, I have used both the Veritas on the stone blade holder and theGeneral off the stone holder. Last night I sharpened two of the blades (oneHock, one Stanley) rather quickly (not minutes, but not hours either). Whenbeginning to sharpen the other Hock and Stanley, I noticed (using a trysquare) that the blades edges was not straight (level). I placed a 200 gritwet/dry sandpaper on top of the stone to quickly true up the edges. Goingthen to the stone, it took a bit of time to re-establish the bevel, thenthings worked fine. However, I like what I hear re the diamond stone (ordiamond plate) and also the George Barnes method. Chris Bogart and TomSmithwick, as usual, cut to the quick of things, i.e. Keep it simple! HopeChris shares his technique on line with those of us who can't get toGrayling. All other comments and suggestions are, believe me, being keptinmind for future problems! Thanks all.J. Snider. from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Tue May 12 08:03:52 1998 CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU(IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Tue, 12 May 98 09:03:14 EDT Subject: sharpening Jerry, I, too, had trouble getting a reliably sharp edge, and still someedges last much longer than others. Other list members have mentionedsomelikely problems, so I'll go straight to the hair-brained, truly analretentive, seemingly impossible explanations: Flatness seems to be one thing: parallelism of both sides seems tobe another. If both sides aren't parallel, you will constantly besharpening one side of the blade on a "high" (left or right) edge of thestone and working it across the width of the blade to the other side. Doesthis sound familiar, or does your sharpening polish in the center first andwork out to the sides? If the latter, you might investigate whether thestone isn't dished after all. Perhaps try some other tool than the one youhave been using to check this. If the former: Look at the end of the stone, perhaps measure itsthickness along both long edges, to determine if the two srufaces reallyareparallel and parallel with the surface on which you place the stone. Thereare also some ways to "read" what's happening when you sharpen. Mark oneend of the stone to make sure you have it oriented consistently, then look theblade as you sharpen. WIth the stone positioned in the same way eachtime,does one side of the blade consistently get sharpened (polished) first?Flip the stone end for end. Does the other side get sharpened first? Ifyes, this would seem to indicate that the stones two surfaces are notparallel. If so, there may not be much you can do about it. Buying a newstone may be cheap "therapy". One thing you can do is to flip itend-for-end after the rough step and before the polishing step rather thanrotating it along its long axis. This will at least keep the slantedsurface slanting in the same direction. But to do this you have to knowwhich way it slants, so mark one end and keep track of which end youbeganwith. (It is also probably a good idea to work both ends of the stonealternately in order to keep it from losing its parallelism along thelength, but that's another anal retentive night mare.) This is not idealbecause the blade tends to become not square with the sides. Some of thiscan be conpensated with the lateral adjustment in the plane to keep thethroat opening consistent across the cutting width. I use the General sharpening guide, which obviously isn't aprecision tool. Have a close look at that. WIth the blade clamped in andresting on the surface of the stone, does the axis of the axel wobble upanddown? Does one wheel take all the weight when you move it back andforth?I suspect this could be due to faulty parallelism in the stone, but it couldalso be faulty squareness in the holder itself. If it does wobble, but ifthe blade also wobbles on the surface of the stone then I would thinkaboutparallelism. If the balde doesn't wobble up and down on the stone but thewheels do, then it is probably either faulty axel, different diameterwheels, twisted frame, etc. Please don't ask me how any of these thingscould happen. In the end, you may simply need better tools and a newstone(though see last paragraph below). As others have suggested, make sure, damn sure, the surface yousharpen on is flat. You might try buying another piece of thick (1/4" ormore) glass. Also make sure the surface under the glass is more thanreasonably flat. 3/4" particle board or chip board is usually pretty good. I suspect that lack of parallelism might be due to flattening usingonly a back-and-forth mothin that puts more pressure along one edge ofthestone than the other. Try a figure eight motion and keep the stone close tothe near edge fo the workbench so you don't have to reach to push on thestone. If you start to despair, consider for a moment how much experiencewith this same problem went into these rantings, and then decide whetherI've lost my mind. On the other hand, I now have sharp and long-lastingblades, though I suspect others can get them with less thought and work. I could end by connecting this to the more philosophical debateabout quality of tools by saying that without straight, flat, square toolsrodbuilding becomes a dangerous game with one's sanity, but I won't. Good luck, Mark.Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan University from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Tue May 12 08:19:58 1998 0400 Subject: Re[2]: sharpening blades John, what is the brand and dimensions of the tape you use? I havehesitated getting my plane grooved and am considering this approach. Also, do youuse a guide of some sort (I have one for sharpening blades but not one forplaning. Thanks, Andy______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: sharpening blades Author: at Tcpgate At 03:25 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:Following Catannach every step of the way, including blade holder, on thestone sharpening, same wetstone, etc. I, too, thought that the stone mightbe "dished," and perhaps will be a bit more anal about it when I sharpenagain tonight. After aligning the blade in the holder, I even use amachinists square to be certain that the blade is absolutely square in theholder. I don't BELIEVE that the blade is slipping in the holder, butperhaps? Nor is the angle adjustment creeping, as far as I can discern.As far as the plate glass is concerned, it is a very thick plate glass used absolutely flat.It has to be something simple I am not keying in on, but DARN it takesforever to get a blade sharp. Thanks for the input. Jerry;I was having the same sort of problem with my on the stone type holder. Ifound that after I sharpened on the 1000 side, that if I pulled the bladeback in the holder slightly(about 1/16, I made a mark on the guage with autility knife)then continued on the 6000 side, I got a much sharper blade.I suppose this is a microbevel of some sort, all I know is that it works butt section before doing the tips. Let me re-phrase that, I have twoblades and sharpen for each section, once for rough-in and once for finalplaning.I almost always get one stage per section per blade.The thing thathas helped me the most in keeping the blades going is to not let the bladetouch the form. I use metallic tape to make a slot , but only because I amtoo cheap to find a machinist to groove the bottom of my plane for me.Besides, there are as many machinists in Durango as there are 9 1/2's forsale (I had to mail order mine). When I run out of tape I will probablyslot my own plane with sandpaper. Hope you get your problem solved, lifeistoo short to spend it sharpening. John Channer from dhaftel@att.com Tue May 12 08:31:34 1998 8.6/EMS-1.2sol2) (5.5.1960.3) Subject: Water water everywhere... Hi all, Thanks to everyone for the replies to my question of how to keep "dry"whileplaning. I'm still not sure how I'm going to proceed, but at least now Ihave a few good ideas to work with. Thanks again... Dennis Haftel from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue May 12 08:38:27 1998 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id IAA22666 for (8.8.4/8.6.8)with SMTP id IAA06391 for ; Tue, 12 May1998 Subject: Re: Binder for Amateurs A place called "American Science and Surplus" has perfect pulleys are 6.25" diameter, made of pressed steel (flat) with a welded-onhub or arbor or whatever its called with a 5/8" bore, about 1" deep.I've got 4 on my Milward-style binder, 2 for the binder head and 2more for the other pulleys. Jerry Foster's Rodmakers web page has a link to them. They have a retail outlet just down the road from me, so if you can't track them down I could probably get a pair and send them to you.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 11 May 1998, JOHN E COLE wrote: Don I am trying to build one of Tom's Binders and haven't had any luckfinding pulleys. Where did you find a hardware store that had the largeones, or the hand wheels you are going to use. An also looking for binderglace cotton binder twine. Any help would be appreciated. John ColeFather John's Custom RodsE-Mail jcole10@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 12 08:55:03 1998 Subject: Re: Simplicity Bill,Amen. Hope we'll see you at Chris Bogart's the 16th.Regards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 12 08:55:09 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Simple Building GeorgeWell said. I'm still learning how to sharpen after 20 years or so. I stillsharpen at least once a strip and find that if I set the form shallower thanfinal I save my edge but I mic a lot. Not having any fancy waterstones,diamond paste or leather belts on drive wheels I use time instead ofgadgets.I think its time I tried some more gadgets (Terry A. notwithstanding :-)Regards,Hank. from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue May 12 09:01:09 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue,12May 1998 10:03:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod Straighting I use Epon and this is my method (along with a lot of other people). Glue it up. Use a flat long table to roll out the blank like Wayne C. talks about in his book. Then pin the tip of the rod to the wall and let it hang. At this point it will be very apparent if there are twists. If you put your thumb on the bottom and look up at the tip, it should be laying flat on the wall. If not, twist and check again. I keep checking the sections (anally) for the next 18 or so hours.So far it has worked for me, Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from dhaftel@att.com Tue May 12 09:31:23 1998 8.6/EMS-1.2sol2) (5.5.1960.3) Subject: RE: Rod Straighting Hey Jon, How long does that stuff stay "workable"? I just ordered a quart of it, soI guess I'll find out. I was just wondering how long I'm going to have tobind the whole mess once I slop it on... Thanx, Dennis Haftel -----Original Message-----From: Jon Lintvet [SMTP:jlintvet@clarityconnect.com]Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:01 AM Subject: Re: Rod Straighting I use Epon and this is my method (along with a lot of other people). Glue it up. Use a flat long table to roll out the blank like Wayne C. talks about in his book. Then pin the tip of the rod to the wall and let it hang. At this point it will be very apparent if there are twists. If you put your thumb on the bottom and look up at the tip, it should be laying flat on the wall. If not, twist and check again. I keep checking the sections (anally) for the next 18 or so hours.So far it has worked for me, Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from jczimny@dol.net Tue May 12 09:54:24 1998 Subject: Re: J.C. Zimny's comments on "Final ferrule fitting" Cratex is a brand name. It is a rubber wheel that mounts on some type ofgrinder for grinding or polishing operations. There are hundreds of sizesandgrits. They are often used by tool makers or dental technicians for bothdimensioning or polishing.J. Zimny irish-george@worldnet.att.net wrote: What is a "cratex" wheel? George Bourke----------From: J. C. Zimny Subject: Re: Final ferrule fittingDate: Monday, May 11, 1998 5:28 PM If you're really trying to take off metal in order to fit, then Iwouldn't do it. It'simpossible to get it accurate. I often use a tool poste grinder fittedwith a veryfine diamond cratex wheel. This will do the job precisely. Hand fittingis the safestway.J. Zimny from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue May 12 10:16:04 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting To all who replied, especially Ralph, John, and Don:Thanks for the information! I've noticed that when I buff the male end to anice polish, then insert into the female and remove, the male ferrulecomesout awfully scratched. I know better than to try to polish inside thefemale. Is this just something I have to live with? Or is it that thefemales could stand to be produced with a higher standard of internalfinish, or what?I have only limited experience looking at ferrules on other rods. Doall male ferrules show scratches after removing?Thanks again,Harry Yes I use this method. I use jeweler's rouge. A few precaautions. Thewheel has a tendency of pulling the rod shaft out of your hands if youuse too much pressure. Also the fit is very critical. A slecond or twotoo much buffing and you can overdo it. I think that it is far betterto use this technique than to use abrasives to fit. Strips of sandpaperjust do not give me any control Ralph from saweiss@flash.net Tue May 12 10:20:05 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades George,Where can one get the carbide strips?Steve Weiss from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 12 10:46:18 1998 Subject: Re: Re[2]: FW: bamboo milling machine Bill,It may be less than 3% as the splines may compress a bit. I don't believethe % loss of cane will make that much difference-others may not agree.Regards,Hank. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue May 12 15:18:04 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Test: Do not read This is a test to see if I'm getting through. No mail in quite some time. from RVenneri@aol.com Tue May 12 15:32:16 1998 Subject: Re: Test: Do not read Harry Your Getting Thru. By the way did you ever get to copy the articule on hexwinding checks and are you still interested in some reel seats. Let meknowThanksBob V Venneri's Custom Components21 Chuck Hill RoadSaugerties N Y 12477914 246 5882 from SalarFly@aol.com Tue May 12 18:07:37 1998 Subject: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Anybody know it? I've been searching through all my books, and Ican't find it. Darryl Hayashida from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue May 12 18:23:25 1998 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting Harry,I wouldn't use a buffer.As a Gunsmith for the past 30years,I havedone alot of buffing in the custom finishing part of it.Using a muslin wheel withpolish will give you ripples in the metal finish.They may be very slight, but theywillbe there. Stick to the stones or fine files. You will have better luck. Dave L. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue May 12 18:23:59 1998 Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting Tony,What you are talking about and what Harry is talking about are twodifferent things.He is talking about the fitting of the male to female,not were theferrule meets the rod.What you're doing is fine, but harry is talking about usingabuffer to take the male down to fit the female.Not a good idea.If he wants tomount the section in the lathe and take it down with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper,thats fine. But not a buffer. Dave L. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue May 12 18:26:56 1998 Subject: Re: J.C. Zimny's comments on "Final ferrule fitting" George,A cratex wheel is rubber impregnated with an abrasive. Dave L. from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue May 12 18:50:53 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades Dr. Steven A. Weiss wrote: George,Where can one get the carbide strips?Steve Weiss J & L Industrial Supply has a good selection.Their catalog may be available from J & L Industrial Supply, ATTN:Catalog Department, P.O. Box 3359, Livonia, MI 48151-9918.Not sure if they need a company name or not. Mine comes a corporationand I've been getting it for years. Has become a rather massive catalog. They also have a WEB page at www.industry.net/jlindsupply from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue May 12 18:50:55 1998 Subject: Re: Water Dennis,I use a product called Golden Rod.It is an electric strip insidea tube. I use this inside my gun safe to keep the temp up and reduce thehumidity inside the safe. I forget who makes it,but it is made for gun safes.Checkwith some sporting goods stores that sell gun safes.It has worked great for me forthe past ten years. Dave LeClair from cbogart@shentel.net Tue May 12 18:55:23 1998 head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA17439; Tue, 12 May199819:55:00 -0400 Subject: Re: sharpening blades TraverI am working on a series of articles right now and this is one ofthem - complete with pictures. Chris On Mon, 11 May 1998 22:37:16 -0700, Traver Becker wrote: Chris Bogart wrote: JerryLet me put one myth aside - you don't need a flat stone. It alldependsupon technique. I look upon a flat stone (let's here from the diamondstonefolks) like a perfect rod - a holy grail. Tom Smithwicks version ofGeorgeBarnes power wheel does work . But you can get very good results fromyour existing waterstone with no $$ outlay. Last year using the sameimplements you have I demonstrated at Grayling resharpening in about1 minute time. I have refined the technique and have no problems. I alsodo not have ro re-grind my plane blade as some have suggested. I willgive the up dated to demo at the Grayling Sharp-O-Rama. ChrisChris,Can you post the instructions for your magic sharpening technique? Iwill not be attending the Sharp-o-Rama but would appreciate your input.ThanksTraver Becker from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue May 12 19:05:17 1998 Subject: Re: Simple Building FISHWOOL wrote: GeorgeWell said. I'm still learning how to sharpen after 20 years or so. Hank: It may be gadgetry but- Charlie Hisey was here from Connecticut today topickupa quad planing form and to visit. Over the past two days I'd rough planedninenodeless strips and finish planed eight of them, all with the same twoplanes,both equipped with carbide tips on the plane irons. I'd saved the last oneforCharlie to see how long a carbide tip will stay sharp. The 9-1/2 Stanleyusedforthe last few passes was still merrily singing along. Really you can countrodsections between sharpenings as opposed to counting strips. A bitdifficult toshape originally as you have to have a"green" stone on your grinder andthenhaveto follow up with a diamond plate or stone. The last thing I do is polishwithdiamond paste on a 1" leather belt on a 1" belt sander. from then on, it'smostlyback to the leather belt and that not too often.George from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 12 19:21:20 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A7B92F50130; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:22:17 MDT Subject: Re: Re[2]: sharpening blades At 10:16 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: John, what is the brand and dimensions of the tape you use? I havehesitated getting my plane grooved and am considering this approach. Also, do youuse a guide of some sort (I have one for sharpening blades but not one forplaning. Thanks, Andy Andy;I am using up some 3-M heat reflective tape that I used for stove- topcutouts in Corian countertops. I would like to give you the model number,but the inner label on the roll is long since gone. Itis thicker than themetallic repair tape you see in hardware stores, mine is about .003 If youlive in or near a city big enough to have solid surace countertopcontractors, call one and see if they will get you a roll, but I warn youit is not cheap, I got mine for free because it wound up in with my bucketof clamps when I moved. I don't use a guide when I am planing, I have beenusing hand planes and hand held power planes for so long that keeping itlevel is not much of a problem for me. The main thing I have noticed is toget your strips bevelled correctly when you first rough them in, it makesthe final planing that much easier. John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 12 19:23:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A84D60200E2; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:24:45 MDT Subject: Re: Water water everywhere... At 09:31 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote:Hi all, Thanks to everyone for the replies to my question of how to keep "dry"whileplaning. I'm still not sure how I'm going to proceed, but at least now Ihave a few good ideas to work with. Thanks again... Dennis Haftel Dennis;I have thought about your problem all day, the only solution I can come upwith is to move to Colorado, the humidity in my shop is 30% at themoment. John Channer from tbeckfam@pacbell.net Tue May 12 19:30:42 1998 mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA28461 for Subject: Re: sharpening blades Chris Bogart wrote: TraverI am working on a series of articles right now and this is one ofthem - complete with pictures. Chris Chris,Your artical on the Garrison binder was a great help when I builtmine. It worked pefectly the first time out. I am looking forward toyour future articles. I hope you include alot of pictures. My lack ofreading comprehension makes it hard for me to decipher text withoutpictures. ThanksTraver Becker from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 12 19:32:32 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AA5A4980152; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:33:30 MDT Subject: RE: Rod Straighting At 10:27 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote:Hey Jon, How long does that stuff stay "workable"? I just ordered a quart of it, soI guess I'll find out. I was just wondering how long I'm going to have tobind the whole mess once I slop it on... Thanx, Dennis Haftel Dennis;Hours and hours, but will be set up by the time you get home from workthenext day( at 70d) By a big jug of white vinegar and plenty of rags.John Channer from jmckinnon@ottawa.iti.ca Tue May 12 19:46:23 1998 12 May 98 20:44:56 -0500 0500 12 May 98 20:44:47 -0500 Subject: Re: sharpening blades George are you sure of that URL for them industry net does not list them intheir search function??? Or am I doing something wrong-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: sharpening blades Dr. Steven A. Weiss wrote: George,Where can one get the carbide strips?Steve Weiss J & L Industrial Supply has a good selection.Their catalog may be available from J & L Industrial Supply, ATTN:Catalog Department, P.O. Box 3359, Livonia, MI 48151-9918.Not sure if they need a company name or not. Mine comes a corporationand I've been getting it for years. Has become a rather massive catalog. They also have a WEB page at www.industry.net/jlindsupply from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 12 19:46:34 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Simple Building George,Since I quit farming in '76 I haven't had a grinder nor do I know how toget carbide tips on my blades-I guess i'd better start learning again- that'sone of the joys of this "craft".Regards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 12 19:52:41 1998 Subject: Borden's (Elmer's) carpenter's wood glue To all,I got a little hasty and glued up 2 nodeless strips without heat treating.I've been using Elmer's carpenter's wood glue (professional, I'll have youknow -it says so right on the bottle). What is the temp. point at which theglue breaks down? I could try 200 deg. F. over 24 hrs. but i'd be shooting inthe dark. Maybe I should try it without heat treating :-)Regards,Hank- nodeless and at a loss-Woolman. from skeyser@kear.tds.net Tue May 12 20:22:24 1998 Subject: Cancel my subscription please! Could you please unsubscribe me from your e-mail tree.Thank you ****************************Stephen KeyserP.O. Box 193East Andover, NH 03231(603) 735-5449************************************* from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue May 12 20:22:33 1998 Subject: Re: sharpening blades John McKinnon wrote: George are you sure of that URL for them industry net does not list themintheir search function??? Or am I doing something wrong- URL came from back page of their last catalog. I've not tried it but will from sats@gte.net Tue May 12 20:42:42 1998 Subject: Re: matriarchs of the list UAA01488 So, what's your point? Harriett Foster The point is Harriet, I thought the list was to encourage newrodmakers, not be a kind of info-mercial on gadgets.Terry Hay, Terry. Gadgets are fun! I like building them, making them work, then finding out that I can do thesamething another, easier way. It's a great life! Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from SalarFly@aol.com Tue May 12 20:57:05 1998 Subject: Re: Borden's (Elmer's) carpenter's wood glue In a message dated 5/12/98 5:57:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,FISHWOOL@aol.comwrites: To all,I got a little hasty and glued up 2 nodeless strips without heat treating.I've been using Elmer's carpenter's wood glue (professional, I'll have youknow -it says so right on the bottle). What is the temp. point at whichtheglue breaks down? I could try 200 deg. F. over 24 hrs. but i'd be shooting inthe dark. Maybe I should try it without heat treating :- )Regards,Hank-nodeless and at a loss-Woolman. Don't try it without heat treating. I took the advice of someone about3 or 4 years ago and tried making a rod without heat treatment. Itdoesn't work. The blank took and held severe sets for a half an hour.It did straighten after a while, but I can't imagine fishing with a rodlike that. Darryl Hayashida from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue May 12 21:34:04 1998 (205.236.249.76) Subject: Re: FW: bamboo milling machine epoxy and the traditional adhesives that have been used for years for thelamination of cane rods are completely different. The phenol/formaldehydeadhesives require considerable clamping pressure and if the glue line istoothick it will fail. Epoxy on the other hand require a thick glue line. john collins wrote: making the joint as tight as possible may become self defeating. Mostgluejoints needs some amount of space or the joint will fail due tostarvation.Historically glue joints were roughened prior to gluing. Modern theoryisthat this actually provides enough space for the initial glue up and is notthere to provide tooth for the surfaces. I know from personal experiencethat the best way to make an epoxy joint to fail is to make it too tight.Take that into consideration before making judgements. At 11:16 AM 5/11/98 -0600, you wrote: -----Original Message-----From: William_Lamberson@muccmail.missouri.edu Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 8:55 AMSubject: Re[2]: FW: bamboo milling machine Calculation of the cross-sectional area of bamboo in rods planed at61.5 degrees versus those planed at 60 degrees indicate that about3%of the bamboo is replaced by glue in the former. It appears that thepercentage is independent of the width of the hexagon. Is that somuch that we should be concerned? Bill Lamberson 3% of the cross-sectional area would not seem to be much, but it is theeffect that could make a difference. Replace 3% of the gas in your gastankwith water and see what happens. Replace 3% of the oxygen in yourbreathingair with chlorine and see what happens. Anyway, there are so many variables that affect the final outcome, thatMYpreference, as someone who is not concerned with this HOBBY as animportantsource of income is to reduce the potential negative effects that areundermy control. Concealing the glue joint doesn't make me a better craftsman. Makingtheglue joint as small as possible through careful planing is my goal.Whatever makes one happy. Steve Weiss from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue May 12 22:12:15 1998 (205.236.248.147) Subject: Re: sharpening blades I am getting frightened to write bugger all but this is what I do( ratherdiddo)I have a cheap 4in belt sander with a 50 grit belt which I use to give anangleof approx. 25 deg to the blade. I then clamp the blade in one of thesecontraptions with the wheel on using a protractor set at 39 deg. I use 39forroughing and finishing. it takes a little more pushing but the blade lasts alot longer and the possibility of tear out at the nodes is reduced. I us averycheap oil stone that is fairly coarse and requires only a few strokes to getanedge. I like a little tooth to the blade. This micro bevel gradually getswiderand when it takes too long to stone I use the belt sander again. I have 2blockplanes with an adjustable gap and one without. I have used these planesforover 10 years and have yet to replace the blade.Terry Jerry Snider wrote: Have tried several of the recommendations from the archives, but for methemost frustrating step is trying to get a really sharp plane blade. I DO getit, after about 4-5 hours of sharpening (3-4 blades). Even then, the bladeedge doesn't seem to be "true." Here is what I am doing (based primarily from the Cattanach book). Now, what am I doing WRONG?1. I use a plate glass shelf for the platform.2. True up the stone (both sides) on wet/dry sandpaper prior tosharpening.3. Use a squared jig to place the blade in the holder (it IS square!).4. Begin sharpening on the course side first. Every time I do this, itseems that I have to re establish the blade angle all over again.5. Once the angle is sharp from edge to edge and top to bottom, I go tothefine side.6. When I begin sharpening on the fine side of the stone, and not havingremoved the blade from the holder, it seems that I have to re establishtheangle ALL OVER again, edge to edge, top to bottom.Gets quite frustrating, to the point that I am inclined to go to the"Scarey Sharp" sharpening system.However, I must admit, the blades finally do get sharp. Sorry to interfere with the more "philosophical" debates going on with a"real" question, but I do appreciate any help, flames or no!Jerry Snider. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue May 12 22:27:49 1998 Subject: Re: Rod Straighting In a message dated 98-05-12 10:34:01 EDT, you write:>Dennis - will butt in here with a comment. Tho working time is veryample,Epon is fairly thick to begin with. And, it seems to thicken a bit morefairly quickly. Just finished glueing together a 3-pc, 2-tip rod and it'sthickness became a bother. Solution was to hold it over the heat gun afewseconds and it loosened up quite nicely. Not sure how much of that you canget away with, though, before it begins an accelerated cure. However, itgotme thru the last tip quite nicely.Regards,Richard Tyree from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue May 12 22:31:34 1998 Subject: Re: Wilks' reelseat mandrel I tried to phone Steve Wilks re: the pentools reelseat mandrel in therodmakers site and I got the disconnected recording. Anybody knowanother # Rob Hoffhines from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 12 22:39:10 1998 Wed, 13 May 1998 11:39:02 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Final ferrule fitting On Tue, 12 May 1998, LECLAIR123 wrote: Tony,What you are talking about and what Harry is talking about are twodifferent things.He is talking about the fitting of the male to female,not weretheferrule meets the rod.What you're doing is fine, but harry is talking aboutusing abuffer to take the male down to fit the female.Not a good idea.If he wants tomount the section in the lathe and take it down with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper,thats fine. But not a buffer. Dave L. Dave,I had a private email asking how I mount to ferrules to the rod and answered it just prior to seeing the post you're refering to and replied to it without looking closer, thanks for the smack in the back of the head to remind me ;-) Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed May 13 07:50:29 1998 Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? In a message dated 5/12/98 11:10:36 PM, you wrote: Darryl - It's in Garrison/Carmichael in the stress calculation chapter.Garrison claims 12 t0 15 million lbs psi. from dhaftel@att.com Wed May 13 08:03:27 1998 8.6/EMS-1.2sol2) (5.5.1960.3) Subject: RE: Water water everywhere... John, Is that an invitation?? Well, ok, if I HAVE to... I'll make the 'sacrifice' for my art... But seriously, I have been considering moving out of Joisey for quite sometime now. Can't stand the crowds, the weather, the taxes the laws (youneeda license for everything here), not to mention what it costs to insure mylittle cash cow... uh, I mean car. CO is very high on my short list! I have also heard the fishing "ain't so bad" out there!! Dennis Haftel -----Original Message-----From: john channer [SMTP:channer@hubwest.com]Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Water water everywhere... At 09:31 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote:Hi all, Thanks to everyone for the replies to my question of how to keep "dry"whileplaning. I'm still not sure how I'm going to proceed, but at least now Ihave a few good ideas to work with. Thanks again... Dennis Haftel Dennis;I have thought about your problem all day, the only solution I can come upwith is to move to Colorado, the humidity in my shop is 30% at themoment. John Channer from eestlow@srminc.com Wed May 13 08:24:34 1998 1997)) id86256603.0048F276 ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:16:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Darryl, As you probably know, the modulus of elasticity of a substance is simplythe slope of the stress vs. strain curve. It is experimentally derived bybending or stretching the substance and plotting stress (pounds per squareinch or ounces per square inch) vs. strain (inches per inch, that is,inches elongated per inch of original length). This is the quality we'rereally talking about when we discuss the stiffness of a substance. This all, of course depends on the material being isotropic, or having thesame characteristics in every direction. Bamboo, being a fiberous materialis nonisotropic. Having the power fiber density vary across the crosssection compounds the problem further. Every culm will have a slightlydifferent modulus of elasticity and indeed, strips having varying amountsof power fibers will have varying moduli. Your best bet is to get an average by testing the size strip or glued uprod section under known conditions. The recent thread on 60 deg. vs. 61-1/2deg. planed strips and resultant glue lines is really getting at theaverage modulus of elasticity of the composite rod section. All that being said, I don't know what an average modulus of elasticity ofbamboo might be. Tom Smithwick just mailed the list with 12 to 15millionpsi. That's tough to believe. Perhaps he meant osi (ounces per squareinch), I don't know. Steel is about 29 million psi, aluminum about 10million psi, depending upon grade. Hope this helps. Regards,-Ed Estlow SalarFly on 05/12/98 06:05:45 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Anybody know it? I've been searching through all my books, and Ican't find it.Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Wed May 13 10:17:56 1998 Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Thanks Ed and Tom.As usual Ed gives a very thorough explanation. Thankyou very much. Darryl from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Wed May 13 12:06:28 1998 Subject: First Rod taper search List,After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from another listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? from SalarFly@aol.com Wed May 13 12:43:57 1998 Subject: Rod Straightening One thing I have found that helps in keeping the blank straight during glue up is to leave the masking tape on. If you tape every two or three inches, leave the tape on, binding right over the tape, short kinks and twists are much less of a problem. The tape doesn't allow the splines to slip past each other as they have to do to twist or go crooked. Long sweeps are still a problem, but at least the little kinks and twists don't form as much. They still do if you are heavy handed with your binding machine, and sometimes the glue pushes up under the tape and unsticksit. After the glue has hardened the tape is fairly easy toremove with a cabinet scraper. Darryl Hayashida from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Wed May 13 13:26:24 1998 0400 Subject: Re[4]: sharpening blades Thanks John...Andy ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Re[2]: sharpening blades Author: at Tcpgate At 10:16 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: John, what is the brand and dimensions of the tape you use? I havehesitated getting my plane grooved and am considering this approach. Also, do youuse a guide of some sort (I have one for sharpening blades but not one forplaning. Thanks, Andy Andy;I am using up some 3-M heat reflective tape that I used for stove- topcutouts in Corian countertops. I would like to give you the model number,but the inner label on the roll is long since gone. Itis thicker than themetallic repair tape you see in hardware stores, mine is about .003 If youlive in or near a city big enough to have solid surace countertopcontractors, call one and see if they will get you a roll, but I warn youit is not cheap, I got mine for free because it wound up in with my bucketof clamps when I moved. I don't use a guide when I am planing, I have beenusing hand planes and hand held power planes for so long that keeping itlevel is not much of a problem for me. The main thing I have noticed is toget your strips bevelled correctly when you first rough them in, it makesthe final planing that much easier. John Channer from anglport@con2.com Wed May 13 14:24:13 1998 Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? At 11:16 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote: Thanks Ed and Tom.As usual Ed gives a very thorough explanation. Thankyou very much. Darryl Darryl,On pg 17 of the original "The Book" they cite that some culms might testashigh as 15 million and others as low as 5 million, and it IS Psi. 'Coursethat may be a misprint but that's what it says. I do seem to remembersomeone somewhere comparing bamboo to steel and using a one- to-threeorone-to-two ratio.Art from eestlow@srminc.com Wed May 13 14:39:23 1998 1997)) id86256603.006B689F ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:33:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Guys, Forgive me, but this kind of stuff jazzes me. If one of you has a glued upsection 6" or a foot long and of constant cross section (makes the matheasier), I'll come up with the equation tonight (I'm at work now, withoutmy reference) so you can clamp the section and hang a weight and we'llseewhat it works out to be. When I doubted psi in favor of osi, I was just envisioning a steel rod vs.a bamboo rod under bending. Just goes to show the dangers of thoughtexperiments (although they worked well for Einstein). Best regards,-Ed Estlow Art Port on 05/13/98 02:39:41 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? At 11:16 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote: Thanks Ed and Tom.As usual Ed gives a very thorough explanation. Thankyou very much. Darryl Darryl,On pg 17 of the original "The Book" they cite that some culms might testashigh as 15 million and others as low as 5 million, and it IS Psi. 'Coursethat may be a misprint but that's what it says. I do seem to remembersomeone somewhere comparing bamboo to steel and using a one- to-threeorone-to-two ratio.Art from Canerods@aol.com Wed May 13 15:12:59 1998 Subject: Re: First Rod taper search In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don Burns from thramer@presys.com Wed May 13 15:18:10 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Water water everywhere... Haftel, Dennis Jay wrote: John, Is that an invitation?? Well, ok, if I HAVE to... I'll make the 'sacrifice' for my art... But seriously, I have been considering moving out of Joisey for quitesometime now. Can't stand the crowds, the weather, the taxes the laws (youneeda license for everything here), not to mention what it costs to insure mylittle cash cow... uh, I mean car. CO is very high on my short list! I have also heard the fishing "ain't so bad" out there!! Dennis Haftel -----Original Message-----From: john channer [SMTP:channer@hubwest.com]Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Water water everywhere... At 09:31 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote:Hi all, Thanks to everyone for the replies to my question of how to keep "dry"whileplaning. I'm still not sure how I'm going to proceed, but at least now Ihave a few good ideas to work with. Thanks again... Dennis Haftel Dennis;I have thought about your problem all day, the only solution I can comeupwith is to move to Colorado, the humidity in my shop is 30% at themoment. John Channer The inevitable result of taxing the producers of society; they leave andin an effort to keep the benefit level to the consumers, the overtaxedproducers then have to be taxed at an even higher rate as the consumersof societies largess have no reason to leave.A.J.Thramer from thramer@presys.com Wed May 13 15:31:05 1998 Subject: Re: First Rod taper search Canerods wrote: In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from another listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don BurnsTry a Young Para 15A.J.Thramer from thramer@presys.com Wed May 13 15:49:47 1998 0000 Subject: Thramer 8ft 4wt Dx Taper Here is the requested 8' 4wt Dx taper0 - .0705 - .08610 - .10015 - .11820 - .13425 - .14830 - .16035 - .17440 - .18645 - .19850 - .21255 - .22860 - .24465 - .25870 - .27475 - .28880 - .30485 - .32290 - .32296 - .322 3 3/4 oz ferrule 14/64. This is a two piece rod.A.J.thramer from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed May 13 16:16:31 1998 mail.wzrd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11661; Wed, 13 May 199817:13:37 Subject: Re: First Rod taper search At 04:10 PM 5/13/98 EDT, Canerods wrote:In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from another listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don Burns See also the Grainger taper (such as; the Aristocrat on the taper archive). Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from wellive@ibm.net Wed May 13 17:49:48 1998 byout2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA91160 for; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:49:36 GMT Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? Douglas Fir is in the 1.3 to 1.8 million psi range. Perhaps bamboo isstiffer,but 10 times sounds like a lot. Barry H. Welliver eestlow@srminc.com wrote: Guys, Forgive me, but this kind of stuff jazzes me. If one of you has a glued upsection 6" or a foot long and of constant cross section (makes the matheasier), I'll come up with the equation tonight (I'm at work now, withoutmy reference) so you can clamp the section and hang a weight and we'llseewhat it works out to be. When I doubted psi in favor of osi, I was just envisioning a steel rod vs.a bamboo rod under bending. Just goes to show the dangers of thoughtexperiments (although they worked well for Einstein). Best regards,-Ed Estlow Art Port on 05/13/98 02:39:41 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/SRM/US)Subject: Re: Modulus of Elasticity of Bamboo? At 11:16 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote: Thanks Ed and Tom.As usual Ed gives a very thorough explanation. Thankyou very much. Darryl Darryl,On pg 17 of the original "The Book" they cite that some culms might testashigh as 15 million and others as low as 5 million, and it IS Psi. 'Coursethat may be a misprint but that's what it says. I do seem to remembersomeone somewhere comparing bamboo to steel and using a one- to-threeorone-to-two ratio.Art from stpete@netten.net Wed May 13 18:42:55 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA19540 for Subject: Steel planing forms With all the talk of simplicity, I've a question to pose. I'm just finishing my Steel (CRS) planing forms a'la Thomas Penrose. All I have left to do is complete the filing of the 30/30 bevels on thetip side of the forms. I was suprised to find how easy it was to makeas I had never worked with steel before. It has taken some time however- about 25 to 30 hours, most spent draw filing the inside faces and thetops of the forms. Some local machine shops did give some great advice(I hope) as did the local industrial fastener supply house. 1. use twin point bits.2. use 'TAP IT', a cutting fluid. I could really tell adifference, especially when hand tapping threads.3. use a size 'F' bit instead of the 1/4" bit. It is made for5/16-18 threaded holes (I'm told - it works great)4. use a 4-flute bit to start the hand tapped threads, onceyour started, switch to a 2-flute bit. Use plenty of 'TAP IT'cutting fluid. I had NO trouble tapping all 26 holes in less than2 hours. Now that I have the drill press and the tools, making another form wouldonly cost some $30 plus the time. My question is this. How accuratedoes this form need to be? Should I have reamed the dowel pin holes andthe shoulder bolt holes? Is this really going to make a noticeabledifference in the strip? The holes are not that tight, but once theform is together, they all seem to make the steel bars immovable. Finally, what do you do about the marks and raised steel ridge created completely. What have you guys done? Rick from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed May 13 19:17:35 1998 Subject: Re: First Rod taper search At 12:05 13/05/98 -0500, you wrote:List,After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from another listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Dean, I'll vote with AJ - John Zimny convinced me to try a Para 15 this pastwinter - casts good - use it in Alberta - best fish landed on it so far isabout 7>8 lbs. Gave its companion away to a friend who is my destructivetester. If it lasts with him, its a winner. I like it - used it today fornymphing and some dry work. Tad heavy for constant dry fish stuff. Likemy5 wts. better there. Don from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed May 13 19:31:46 1998 Subject: Jonathon Clarke Guys, Anyone know how to get a telephone # for him - he doesn't respond toemailand his page will not load. thanx, Don from MasjC1@aol.com Wed May 13 19:40:34 1998 Subject: Bamboo Softening Temperature Does anyone know at what temperature the bamboo softens enough forstraightening and compressing nodes? Thanks. Mark Cole from destinycon@mindspring.com Wed May 13 19:56:48 1998 Subject: Re: Jonathon Clarke Don ,I just loaded his page and these are the numbers he has there.813/821- 9800800/882-5432Gary H. At 06:01 PM 5/13/98, you wrote:Guys, Anyone know how to get a telephone # for him - he doesn't respond toemailand his page will not load. thanx, Don from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 13 20:04:24 1998 Thu, 14 May 1998 09:03:54 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: First Rod taper search On Wed, 13 May 1998, A.J.Thramer wrote: Canerods wrote: In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from another listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don BurnsTry a Young Para 15A.J.Thramer Good choice. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from flyfisher@nextdim.com Wed May 13 21:29:00 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A5792130142; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:22:49 PDT Subject: Re: First Rod taper search I'll agree that the Para-15 is a good taper, make it with the differenttapers for the tips, it makes it and all around rod.Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com- ----Original Message----- Subject: Re: First Rod taper search On Wed, 13 May 1998, A.J.Thramer wrote: Canerods wrote: In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: After listening to all of you for 6 months and participating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod. Itactuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip from anotherlisterto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wt will be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suited to Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Any suggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don BurnsTry a Young Para 15A.J.Thramer Good choice. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu May 14 05:43:21 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA14930 for; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:47:18 +0100 Subject: Redundant ferrules would like to sell, or trade. I have lathe facilities, so I'm not at all worried about the lack ofwaterproofing septum, or having to clean up old stock. I need all sizes, particularly bigger sizes - everything from 12/64ths to30/64ths. Brass or nickel nilver. Super Z, Super Swiss, or Leonard patternwould be fine. I guess there are quite a few big old ferrules lying forgotten in rodmaker'sshops. I can put them to good use. Contact me off list to save bandwidth. John Cooper from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu May 14 05:43:50 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA14958 for; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:47:46 +0100 Subject: Re: Gonzo ferrules Davy, That cape has arrived. It's excellent 'AA' quality. I'll post off to youstraight away. Yup, that was the fly. What does Gonzo mean? John from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu May 14 07:17:46 1998 Subject: Re: Steel planing forms In a message dated 5/13/98 11:43:34 PM, you wrote: The important thing is that the top and bottom surfaces of both bars areflushwith each other when the form is locked up. If you have that, you are OK. If the groove is correctly dimensioned, I doubt that minor burrs willpreventthe form from closing enough for normal tapers. It sounds like you havedone acareful job, and I doubt you will have any problems. Plane a short teststripand see what you get. from stpete@netten.net Thu May 14 07:55:30 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03021 for Subject: Ferrules What's the latest opinions on ferrules? I seem to recall the latestdiscussions trending toward Super Swiss. What do you all prefer? Super Swiss or Super Z or other? Anybody useStep Downs? Secondly, but probably most important to me, how many of you usetruncated ferrules and if so when - on all your rods? Any problems? orspecial treatment? Thanks in Advance, Rick from stpete@netten.net Thu May 14 08:06:46 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03513 for Subject: Homemade Cork lathe? The last real tool I need right now is a lathe to work my cork on. Idon't like the premade grips that well and would rather select my owncork. I have been making the grips on threaded rod, turning them andthen reaming to fit my rod, but I'd rather make the grip on the rod toget the truest centering. I've thought about buying a 1/2" Jacobs chuck that fits on the oldblower motor off an A/C system. Grizzly Imports sells the chuck forabout $20. I could chuck up the butt and rig some kind of supportbearing for the middle of the section so that I'd have about 12" or sobetween the supported section of rod I was working. Another idea is to rig up a three jaw wood lathe chuck. Grizzly sellsthem for about $80. I'd have to come up with the threaded tube toattach it to and then I'd have to find a bearing to support the worksand get a pulley to drive it. Then I'd still have to support the otherend of the rod. Any comments or ideas? Anyone else done this? Rick from eestlow@srminc.com Thu May 14 08:53:47 1998 1997)) id86256604.004BC520 ; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:47:36 -0500 Subject: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation Darryl and the List: As promised, for those experimentally inclined, here is the formula fordetermining the average modulus of elasticity of a glued up section. Thesection should be of constant diameter across flats. E = [w(l^3)] / [0.1803(d)(D^4)] where E = modulus of elasticity in psiw = weight hung in lbs.l = length from clamp to where the weight is hung in inchesd = deflection at the point the weight is hung in inchesD = section diameter across flats0.1803 = constant taking into account the section properties of ahexagon Clamp the section in a vise and hang a 1 or 2 lb weight 6 inches from thevise face. Rig a dial indicator to indicate deflection at the point theweight is hung. Measure as accurately as you can - d & D to 0.001, l to0.05, w as best you can. Plug the numbers into the equation and get themodulus. Just so you know you're reading the equation correctly, assume: w = 1 lb.l = 6 inchesd = .100 inchesD = .250 inches You should get E = 3,066,888 psi. Let me know what you get. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from tom@cet-inc.com Thu May 14 09:49:02 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Rick,In the video, Portrait of a Bamboo Fly Rod Maker, Digger used anelectric drill and some homemade supports to turn cork handles on therod. I prefer turning handles on a steel rod and then adding to the rod.Before I got my South Bend lathe, I turned the handles on a drill press.Digger's drill idea should work for handles on or off the rod.Tom Whittle from stpete@netten.net Thu May 14 10:09:57 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10847 for Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Tom wrote: Rick,In the video, Portrait of a Bamboo Fly Rod Maker, Digger used anelectric drill and some homemade supports to turn cork handles on therod. I prefer turning handles on a steel rod and then adding to the rod.Before I got my South Bend lathe, I turned the handles on a drill press.Digger's drill idea should work for handles on or off the rod.Tom Whittle Tom, Thanks for the idea. I have a drill press, but I'd have to get used tothe turning of the cork spinning vertically. I guess its just the wayyou get used to looking at something. Anyhow, I guess I need to dig upsome good ways to hold and protect the section while turning. That'swhere I'm getting stuck. The end held by the chuck is taken care of, itis the other support that I can't get an idea about. Ball bearing races with cork collets? I'd hate to be turning thesection when the cork gave out or flew out of the bearings. Any brite ideas? Rick from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu May 14 10:25:25 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules Rick,Let me reply from a fellow beginner's point of view to all threequestions you posed.1) Truncated ferrules haved worked great on (3) three piece rods for meso far. I can't say on two piece since I haven't made any yet.2) Cork lathe: Your idea with the old motor and Jacobs chuck will workfine as long as you get a perfectly straight arbor off the end of the motorto connect with the chuck. Otherwise, you'll have a big bounce at the endof the section. (Ask me how I learned that!) For the free end you willwant some sort of bearing contraption like the commercial rod wrappersorcork lathes. I used three small casters, two on bottom, and one fromabovemounted on threaded rods.3) Form burrs. I just finished my steel forms as well. To prevent theburrs caused by set screws from preventing full closure, I drilled a 3/8"hole appox. 1/8" deep in the untapped side of the forms, It has worked forme. I didn't use any special bottoming drills or anything like that to geta flat bottom. The set srews have created their own seats and now leavenoburrs. I think Thomas Penrose's page detailing Lawrence Waldron's formssuggested that he did that.Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Rick Crenshaw wrote: What's the latest opinions on ferrules? I seem to recall the latestdiscussions trending toward Super Swiss. What do you all prefer? Super Swiss or Super Z or other? Anybody useStep Downs? Secondly, but probably most important to me, how many of you usetruncated ferrules and if so when - on all your rods? Any problems? orspecial treatment? Thanks in Advance, Rick from rclarke@eou.edu Thu May 14 11:59:06 1998 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Tom, please fill us in on this. I also have a drill proess and had notthought of using it for this. If it works ok, I want to use it. Robert Clarke ----------From: Rick Crenshaw Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe?Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 8:07 AM Tom wrote: Rick,In the video, Portrait of a Bamboo Fly Rod Maker, Digger used anelectric drill and some homemade supports to turn cork handles on therod. I prefer turning handles on a steel rod and then adding to therod.Before I got my South Bend lathe, I turned the handles on a drillpress.Digger's drill idea should work for handles on or off the rod.Tom Whittle Tom, Thanks for the idea. I have a drill press, but I'd have to get used tothe turning of the cork spinning vertically. I guess its just the wayyou get used to looking at something. Anyhow, I guess I need to dig upsome good ways to hold and protect the section while turning. That'swhere I'm getting stuck. The end held by the chuck is taken care of, itis the other support that I can't get an idea about. Ball bearing races with cork collets? I'd hate to be turning thesection when the cork gave out or flew out of the bearings. Any brite ideas? Rick from SalarFly@aol.com Thu May 14 12:25:11 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules While we are on the subject, how many ferrule manufacturers arethere out there? I just bought a couple sets from REC, and darn ifthey aren't exactly like Classic Sporting Enterprises. I hear AnglersWorkshop buys from them too. I bought a set from Cortland a long time ago and they are different. So, I know of two makers of ferrules.Anybody know of other ferrule makers? Darryl Hayashida from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Thu May 14 12:35:31 1998 Subject: RE: First Rod taper search I thank you all for responding. It looks like the Para 15 will be therod. I'll save the other suggestions for the next time. Thanks again. -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young [SMTP:tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au]Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 6:04 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: First Rod taper search On Wed, 13 May 1998, A.J.Thramer wrote: Canerods wrote: In a message dated 98-05-13 13:09:29 EDT, you write: After listening to all of you for 6 months andparticipating ina limited fashion, I'm finally ready to build my first rod.It actuallytook the threat of being left out on a fishing trip fromanother listerto get my butt in motion. Anyway, I'm thinking an 8' 6wtwill be myfirst attempt. Looking for a good all around taper suitedto Westernrivers...versatile but with a little moxy. Anysuggestions? Wheremight I find a taper for the rod you suggest? Look at the Heddon Black Beauty taper. Don BurnsTry a Young Para 15A.J.Thramer Good choice. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from gwr@seanet.com Thu May 14 12:37:54 1998 mx.seanet.com(8.8.8/Seanet-8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA04925 for; Subject: Re: Ferrules Darryl, I think that Grahame Maisey's brother, S. Maisey, makes them. Grahamesells them through Belvoirdale. If the advertised size is equivalent inratio to that of the silk he sells, you could order a 13/64th set and findyourself well outfitted to build a billfish rod. Russ -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrules While we are on the subject, how many ferrule manufacturers arethere out there? I just bought a couple sets from REC, and darn ifthey aren't exactly like Classic Sporting Enterprises. I hear AnglersWorkshop buys from them too. I bought a set from Cortland a longtime ago and they are different. So, I know of two makers of ferrules.Anybody know of other ferrule makers? Darryl Hayashida from CALucker@aol.com Thu May 14 12:47:32 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules While we are on the subject, how many ferrule manufacturers arethere out there? I just bought a couple sets from REC, and darn ifthey aren't exactly like Classic Sporting Enterprises. I hear AnglersWorkshop buys from them too. I bought a set from Cortland a long time ago and they are different. So, I know of two makers of ferrules.Anybody know of other ferrule makers? Darryl Hayashida Here is a helpful hint: Don't limit yourself to thinking about who makes ferrules. Think aboutwhoMADE ferrules, or who HAD THEM MADE. This is especially helpful forfolksdoing restorations and repairs. Chris Lucker from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu May 14 12:49:52 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules RO>Darryl, RO> I think that Grahame Maisey's brother, S. Maisey, makes them. GrahameRO>sells them through Belvoirdale. If the advertised size is equivalent inRO>ratio to that of the silk he sells, you could order a 13/64th set andfindRO>yourself well outfitted to build a billfish rod. RO> Russ Russ, And it would come with only one male after being charged for two. Darryl - Belvoirdale's ferrules are made in England by Grahame's brother- they are METRIC! If you order - do use a charge card (never cash) and understand thatexactly what Granhame promises might not be what you receive. Don'texpect overnight turnaround - more like a month, if it's in stock. My $0.02. Don Burns from tom@cet-inc.com Thu May 14 12:52:30 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Robert and Rick,I use a 3/8" bar stock about 12" long. I rub candle wax on the bar andthen glue up and clamp my handle. When using the drill press, I chuckedthe bar in the press and used strips of sandpaper to form. I never hadany problems with the 3/8 bar wanting to flex, but you could use a blockof wood with a hole in it clamped to the press table to steady the freeend if you wanted to use a smaller bar stock. It's easier if you formthe tapered end or front of the handle on the up side. Rick is right, itseems a little strange at first working in the vertical, but it's notbad. I use the same bar in my lathe now. BTW, I use a Jacobs chuch in mylathe much mare than I use the three jaw chuck. After the handle in complete, if you tap the end of the bar on a hardsurface, the handle slides off. I use Titebond II glue for this but Ibelieve others have used the same process with Devcon.Tom from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu May 14 13:49:34 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA24368 +0200 Subject: Sv: Homemade Cork lathe? NAA31744 snipped: --->Ball bearing races with cork collets? I'd hate to be turning thesection when the cork gave out or flew out of the bearings. Any brite ideas? Rick Rick Yep, ball bearing and cork collets, in the middle of the rod. PLUSwife/fiancÄe/child equipped with a cotton rag and a loose grip at theferruleend. That is the way I do it, and it works. Not too many RPM's though. regards, Carsten from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu May 14 14:23:36 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules C'mon Chris, you have to spell it out for some of us. What are you tryingtosay? Do you have a secret source somewhere that you're not telling usabout?If so, shame on you!! :-)Harry Boyd CA Lucker wrote: While we are on the subject, how many ferrule manufacturers arethere out there? I just bought a couple sets from REC, and darn ifthey aren't exactly like Classic Sporting Enterprises. I hear AnglersWorkshop buys from them too. I bought a set from Cortland a longtime ago and they are different. So, I know of two makers of ferrules.Anybody know of other ferrule makers? Darryl Hayashida Here is a helpful hint: Don't limit yourself to thinking about who makes ferrules. Think aboutwhoMADE ferrules, or who HAD THEM MADE. This is especially helpful forfolksdoing restorations and repairs. Chris Lucker from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu May 14 16:16:55 1998 Subject: planing forms Rick - I should have mentioned this morning, that you should be verycarefulwhen filing the tip groove. It only takes a few passes to get the depth youneed at the small end of the form. If you go too far, you will have to do alot of draw filing to correct it, or you will not be able to plane a fine tip. from rmoon@ida.net Thu May 14 16:27:56 1998 Subject: Re: Sv: Homemade Cork lathe? Yes Carsten, I did it that way for many years until an overly eagerhelper gripped the cloth just a little to tightly. Instant hexipod!!!!! Ralph p.s. I now cuck it in the lathe and I have an elaborate series ofstabilizers to control any shaft flex. The butt is secured by a smallcountersunk hole with a live center in the tailstock and the three jawchuck is secured just above the grip. from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu May 14 18:04:58 1998 withESMTP id AAA12879 for ; Fri, 15 May 199800:08:55+0100 Subject: Re: Ferrules Yes that's right, they're made by his brother Shirley. Now you must believeme, British kids just aren't called Shirley. I've no idea what his parentswere thinking about when they named the poor little blighter: God knows,Graheme is bad enough. Shades of Johnny Cash's boy called Sue. I don'tknowwhether Shirley can fight. Don't get the two mixed up though. I've dealt with Shirl and found him tobe honest and reliable. Well, as reliable as a one-man-band can be. Hiswork is faultless. He's a really excellent engineer. I've bought fittings and they have always been faultless, and very good value. He's from the north, where they still eat Children, and own whippet dogswith terrified eyes, but Shirl's a good guy. I've heard nothing good about Graheme. Is he dishonest, or just anincompetent idiot. Sounds as though we've exported a bad egg. SORRY. John Cooper (England) ----------From: flyfisher@cmix.com Subject: Re: FerrulesDate: 14 May 1998 17:48 RO>Darryl, RO> I think that Grahame Maisey's brother, S. Maisey, makes them. GrahameRO>sells them through Belvoirdale. If the advertised size is equivalentinRO>ratio to that of the silk he sells, you could order a 13/64th set andfindRO>yourself well outfitted to build a billfish rod. RO> Russ Russ, And it would come with only one male after being charged for two. Darryl - Belvoirdale's ferrules are made in England by Grahame's brother- they are METRIC! If you order - do use a charge card (never cash) and understand thatexactly what Granhame promises might not be what you receive. Don'texpect overnight turnaround - more like a month, if it's in stock. My $0.02. Don Burns from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu May 14 18:20:46 1998 dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: depth guage calibration I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Take a convenient piece of flat steel;thickness is not important but probably should be at least1/8" thick. Drill a hole (~1/8") in the steel; a drillpress is recommended to get the hole perpendicular. Anundersized hole and a reamer would probably increase theaccuracy. Level the piece of steel like you did the sole ofyour plane and you have a calibrator for your depth gauge.The accuracy is as good as the finished diameter of thehole. Now to use it. Since the point of the depth gauge is 60 degrees, the depthgauge will think the hole is: depth = 1/2 * (diameter of hole) * tan 60. Set your depth guage to read .108 and you are calibrated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from Finanplanr@aol.com Thu May 14 18:23:09 1998 Subject: Re: An expirenced comment AMEN!!! Stu Kirkfield from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu May 14 18:27:27 1998 Fri, 15 May 1998 07:27:18 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Ferrules I've heard nothing good about Graheme. Is he dishonest, or just anincompetent idiot. Sounds as though we've exported a bad egg. SORRY. John Cooper (England) He must have been put off the boat on the way over here. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from cbogart@shentel.net Thu May 14 18:32:51 1998 Subject: Re: depth guage calibration OnisI would do that with more than one hole - just as a sanitycheck - if the 1st hole is not exactly what you think it is. - the othersshould come out correct. I would try 3/16ths as the 2nd hole.but you are correct. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 19:19:15 -0500, Onis Cogburn wrote: I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Take a convenient piece of flat steel;thickness is not important but probably should be at least1/8" thick. Drill a hole (~1/8") in the steel; a drillpress is recommended to get the hole perpendicular. Anundersized hole and a reamer would probably increase theaccuracy. Level the piece of steel like you did the sole ofyour plane and you have a calibrator for your depth gauge.The accuracy is as good as the finished diameter of thehole. Now to use it. Since the point of the depth gauge is 60 degrees, the depthgauge will think the hole is: depth = 1/2 * (diameter of hole) * tan 60. Set your depth guage to read .108 and you are calibrated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Regards Chris from rcurry@top.monad.net Thu May 14 19:58:10 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules CA Lucker wrote:Here is a helpful hint: Don't limit yourself to thinking about who makes ferrules. Think aboutwhoMADE ferrules, or who HAD THEM MADE. This is especially helpful forfolksdoing restorations and repairs. Chris LuckerChris,That will scare people. What if they learn that F.E. Thomas, Leonard,Edwards, and others once used ferrules made by MONTAGUE.Best regards,Reed from flyfisher@nextdim.com Thu May 14 20:13:34 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A56D861010E; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:07:57 PDT Subject: Re: Ferrules Yes Reed Montague seems to be synonymous with poorly made rods and rodhardware but Montague made some very high quality rods a different timesduring their history, but few people could afford the price,so we see a lotmore of their cheaper rods than of their better quality rods.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrules CA Lucker wrote:Here is a helpful hint: Don't limit yourself to thinking about who makes ferrules. Think aboutwhoMADE ferrules, or who HAD THEM MADE. This is especially helpful forfolksdoing restorations and repairs. Chris LuckerChris,That will scare people. What if they learn that F.E. Thomas, Leonard,Edwards, and others once used ferrules made by MONTAGUE.Best regards,Reed from saltwein@swbell.net Thu May 14 20:18:10 1998 gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net UAA07656 Subject: Cork If anyone has the summer issue of Fly Tyer magazine, please tell mewhere the cork on the top of page 58 comes from? Is this stuff available anywhere? Is this grade of cork a top secret? Does this cork really exist, or are these retouched photos? The author of the article is Reg Southerby. Has anyone heard of him?Is he a rod builder. I don't get the context of the cork with the flytying article, but I haven't been able to read the article for lookingat the cork! I don't expect an answer. The people who know where this cork is aren'ttalking. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from jcole10@juno.com Thu May 14 20:35:55 1998 21:33:43 EDT Subject: Re: depth guage calibration Chris explain the depth gauge calibrationin a little more detail. Thanks John ColeOn Thu, 14 May 1998 19:42:28 -0600 "Chris Bogart" writes:OnisI would do that with more than one hole - just as a sanitycheck - if the 1st hole is not exactly what you think it is. - the othersshould come out correct. I would try 3/16ths as the 2nd hole.but you are correct. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 19:19:15 -0500, Onis Cogburn wrote: I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Take a convenient piece of flat steel;thickness is not important but probably should be at least1/8" thick. Drill a hole (~1/8") in the steel; a drillpress is recommended to get the hole perpendicular. Anundersized hole and a reamer would probably increase theaccuracy. Level the piece of steel like you did the sole ofyour plane and you have a calibrator for your depth gauge.The accuracy is as good as the finished diameter of thehole. Now to use it. Since the point of the depth gauge is 60 degrees, the depthgauge will think the hole is: depth = 1/2 * (diameter of hole) * tan 60. Set your depth guage to read .108 and you are calibrated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Regards Chris _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] from rcurry@top.monad.net Thu May 14 20:59:09 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules If you want a source of NS ferrules to rework, you might want to checkout this item: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14081480 (Usual disclaimer) Best regards,Reed from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu May 14 21:25:04 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Rick,I have turned handles for years using a variable speed drill and homemadesupports. I put tape on the rod where it rides on the supports. This hasalways worked OK for me and I don't get any lopsided rod grips.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu May 14 21:27:46 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Rick and Robert,If you make supports like you would use for rod wrapping to use for corkturning that will work just fine. In the V groove I put either felt or I haveused soft leather. again make sure you protect the rod itself against therubbing on the running surface.Bret from richjez@enteract.com Thu May 14 22:00:10 1998 0000 (147.126.253.18) Subject: Re: Gonzo ferrules The 22nd, the movie " Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas will come out. It itone of Dr. Hunter Thompson's books. Terry Gilliam (of Monty Python fame)directed it. The book explained "Gonzo" bettter than any written definition. HeinventedGonzo journalism. I believe the book was banned in England. Hope you are able to get themovie. At 11:42 AM 5/14/98 +0100, you wrote:Davy, That cape has arrived. It's excellent 'AA' quality. I'll post off to youstraight away. Yup, that was the fly. What does Gonzo mean? John *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /||/______/_||_________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > from flyfisher@cmix.com Thu May 14 22:05:40 1998 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? RO>Rick and Robert,RO>If you make supports like you would use for rod wrapping to use forcorkRO>turning that will work just fine. In the V groove I put either felt or IhaRO>used soft leather. again make sure you protect the rod itself againsttheRO>rubbing on the running surface.RO>Bret You can buy a dirt-cheap wood lathe from Harbor Freight and use plastictubing or pipe fitting to adapt it for use as a grip machine. I thinkthey sell one for under $75. Don Burns from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu May 14 22:41:35 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules I've seen some of Shirley's reelseats and think they're beautifully done.Haven't seen his ferrules but suspect that they'd be equally fine. Rob Hoffhines from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Thu May 14 23:05:03 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Fri,15May 1998 00:06:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Ferrules Both the ferrules and reel seats by Shirley are top notch. I understand he is using thinner tubing than any other maker (his own claim). Surprising though, when I offered to bring an assortment of his stuff to Fergus and others he declined. His brother said the shows were not worth it. Oh well, their loss. Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Thu May 14 23:05:04 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Fri,15May 1998 00:06:57 -0400 Subject: Re: depth guage calibration Yup Onis...these little gadgets are what I have on the web page. I agree with Chris, two hole is a must. Also, if you want to do this yourself I would suggest getting a centerdrill to chamfer (sp) the edgeof the hole. Just my .02Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu May 14 23:37:47 1998 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Rick,I've been using a mounted hand drill and 2 sets of metal wheels on ballbearings that I got from Dale Clemens years ago. They are set in a metalbarthat moves up and down on 2 posts. I slip a fiber glass tube over the blankjust in front of the cork and mask the dickens out of the reel seat or roundportion therof.Regards,Hank. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu May 14 23:39:47 1998 Fri, 15 May 1998 12:39:41 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Gonzo ferrules On Thu, 14 May 1998, Rich Jezioro wrote: The 22nd, the movie " Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas will come out. It itone of Dr. Hunter Thompson's books. Terry Gilliam (of Monty Python fame)directed it. The book explained "Gonzo" bettter than any written definition. HeinventedGonzo journalism. I believe the book was banned in England. Hope you are able to get themovie. I know this isn't rod stuff, but that would be something to see. Don't take the kids. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu May 14 23:57:50 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Ferrules Reed,Horrors!! Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri May 15 00:06:25 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Gonzo ferrules John and Rich,I believe the term "gonzo glasses" referred to a cartoon character withbiground eyes. The glasses were large round glacier glasses that made onelooklike the cartoon character. How this relates to gonzo ferrules is beyondme.Regards,Hank. from davidjrogers@hotmail.com Fri May 15 01:06:24 1998 Thu, 14 May 1998 23:05:52 PDT Subject: Re: Ferrules Since we're on the subject of ferrules... I seems to me that you either buy ~$40 nickel silver jobbers or $2.50 Brass jobbers like Angler's sells. Is there any middle ground? David Rogers ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from ragnarig@integrityol.com Fri May 15 01:10:31 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id AE0D2910108; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:17:49 PDT Subject: Re: Re: Gonzo ferrules Subject: Re: Gonzo ferrules John and Rich,I believe the term "gonzo glasses" referred to a cartoon character withbiground eyes. The glasses were large round glacier glasses that made onelooklike the cartoon character. How this relates to gonzo ferrules is beyondme.Regards,Hank. I should have known this would happen. My computer is down for a few days and people are talking about myferrules!It's good to know things have gotten this mundane. Probably haven'tmissedmuch! Be advised, my e-mail address just changed, so any correspoondence sentthrough aol will be cast into outer darkness. Davy from davidjrogers@hotmail.com Fri May 15 01:14:00 1998 Thu, 14 May 1998 23:13:24 PDT Subject: Wrapping guides I'm interested in techniques or equipment to help with wrapping the guides. What are people using? Thanks,David Rogers ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from Fishinstix@aol.com Fri May 15 07:58:56 1998 Subject: First attempt at splitting Hi,This is my first splitting attempt. I must be missing somethingsomewhere.I'm splitting my cane using the twisting method that Wayne C. shows onhisvideo. I split the cane in half. (perfect). I split the halves into thirds(perfect). Attempted to split the thirds in half again but the splitswalkedso much that I ended up with 1/4" strip at the end of the culm. I dontthinkthere is enough material left to split it again.1) What did I do wrong? 2) Can you steer the splits using the twisting method? I tried but theywould not turn for me.3) Is the Garrison method more accurate?Please help! Im ruining my cane.Mark Mills from dhaftel@att.com Fri May 15 08:03:22 1998 8.6/EMS-1.2sol2) (5.5.1960.3) Subject: RE: Wrapping guides David, I have always wrapped by hand using a home made jig (made of pine) withmilkjug plastic as a bearing surface. It's a little slow, but I get reallytight wraps that look great. The jig is really simple. There's a long baseof about five feet, with movable uprights that are held in place to the basewith stove bolts and wingnuts. The tops of the uprights are cut withnarrownotches on which I tack the milk jug plastic. Thread tension isaccomplished with a fly tying bobbin (and a little "grunt"). Myanti-reverse "mechanism" is a flask weight (called a lead donut) that I"acquired" from my last place of employment (lab), but you can get themfromany scientific supply house (I think Science Fair has them). I rewrapped an old South Bend mod. 59 using this contraption and it looksgreat. Good luck... Dennis Haftel -----Original Message-----From: David Rogers [SMTP:davidjrogers@hotmail.com]Sent: Friday, May 15, 1998 2:13 AM Subject: Wrapping guides I'm interested in techniques or equipment to help with wrapping the guides. What are people using? Thanks,David Rogers ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from Fallcreek9@aol.com Fri May 15 09:42:53 1998 Subject: Snake guides List: Can someone provide the conversion of snake guide sized from PacBays' # 1 thru # 6 to the other's 3/0, 2/0 ....6? Thinking about trying Pac Bay.Any kind attention to my request will be greatly appreciated.Regards,Richard Tyree from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 15 10:07:26 1998 Subject: RE:Snake guides RO>List: Can someone provide the conversion of snake guide sized fromPac BaysRO># 1 thru # 6 to the other's 3/0, 2/0 ....6? Thinking about trying PacBay.RO>Any kind attention to my request will be greatly appreciated.RO>Regards,RO>Richard Tyree Richard, PacBay has sized from 2/0 to #6 and I believe they'd be the same size aseveryone else. OBTW, Bob Marriott's list these guides as #1305-0149 (black chrome) -(size 2/0 through 6) @ $0.35 each. The chrome guides are #1305-0100 @ $0.40 each, TIGold -- 1305-0120 @$2.15 each and TI gold size #5 or #6 1305-0126 @ $2.25 each. Don Burns from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri May 15 10:43:16 1998 (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA203956993; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:43:13 -0700 Subject: RE: Wrapping Guides David, I use a small tensioning device (sewing machine tensioner) attached to a piece of pine with a couple of posts to feed the spool and a sliding dovetail guide so the thread can swivel. sold through Angler's or Dale Clemens for about $30 (I actually got this from Don Burns). It works simply to provide tension. I hold the rod freehand to wrap and have all the control I want, it's very fast also. I used to just use a book for tension,and that worked fine also, but the tensioning devices are a little easier. I think if you get used to doing things a certain way then that becomes the easiest method for you. I once tried to use a very nice tensioning device with a rodholder etc. and found it cumbersome, not being able to tilt the rod etc. I suppose if I had continued to use it I would have become used to it and it would have been fine. If you will have a lot of interruptions during your wrapping sessions then a more complex contraption might come in handy. If you wrap during the hours I keep you won't be getting any interruptions so the rod holding feature isn't as necessary. I do tipping as a separate wrap. Do your tipping with as few wraps as you can for the best look. 3-5 turns of 2/0. As you go, do 5-7 turns then snug it up against the prior wraps. Eyeball the wrap as you go and if you see a bump it means you wrapped up onto a prior turn. Back up and take care of this before you finish. Look closely and use your fingernail to snug the wrap tight before you apply any finish. Once you put a coat of preserver or varnish on you have what you have, loose wraps and all. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Fri May 15 10:49:48 1998 Subject: Divines Wanted List,Looking for Divine fly rods. Any model any condition...evenbroken or incomplete. If you've got one you might be willing to partwith please respond off list to burrill@ccnet.com. from mcoy@sduhsd.k12.ca.us Fri May 15 10:59:11 1998 R8.00.00) Subject: Re:First attempt at splitting --simple boundary Mark,I purchased a 6 way splitter from Hida Tool (rodmakers page) which givesme 6perfect sections. from there I split in half and then in half again. I startthe split with a knife and then finish by hand. I feel I have more controlsplitting by hand. I am amazed at how accurate this technique is. Thewidth ofmy strips and the angles are right on the money. For me starting with the6even sections from my splitter is the key. ____________________Reply Separator____________________Subject: First attempt at splittingAuthor: Hi,This is my first splitting attempt. I must be missing somethingsomewhere.I'm splitting my cane using the twisting method that Wayne C. shows onhisvideo. I split the cane in half. (perfect). I split the halves into thirds(perfect). Attempted to split the thirds in half again but the splitswalkedso much that I ended up with 1/4" strip at the end of the culm. I dontthinkthere is enough material left to split it again.1) What did I do wrong? 2) Can you steer the splits using the twisting method? I tried but theywould not turn for me.3) Is the Garrison method more accurate?Please help! Im ruining my cane.Mark Mills --simple boundary (ccMailLink to SMTP R8.00.00); Fri, 15 May 98 06:03:34 -0800 intergate.sduhsd.k12.ca.us (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id FAA25794 for Subject: First attempt at splitting --simple boundary-- from SalarFly@aol.com Fri May 15 11:09:51 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation I'm sitting here thinking about what we could do with theModulus of Elasticity (ME) of bamboo and of a rod. We can determine the quality of a culm of bamboo, thehigher ME the better the power fiber. A better test thanthe Cane-otine don't you think? We can determine the effectiveness of a heat treatingmethod. Oven tempered vs. flaming or different tempsand times in the oven. Higher ME should indicate betterheat treatment as long as the bamboo doesn't get brittleand break. If we can determine the ME for every inch of a rod, like thestress curve, we should be able to tell what the action of therod will be. This should be easy to do with a deflection board.Big difference here is the stress curve can be calculated beforethe rod is made, and the ME curve is measured after the rod ismade. The usefulness of a ME curve would be in describing the action of a rod to someone not able to actually cast the rod. With the ME of a rod we can compare six strip to five strip to fourstrip rods. Is a five strip rod actually stiffer than a six strip rod of thesame diameter? How does a quad strip rod compare? I think the ME curve would give the flex profile of a rod. It would probably look like those Tipflex - Midflex - Fulflex pictures in theOrvis catalog. Any other ideas on how to use the Modulus of Elasticity of a rod? Darryl Hayashida from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 15 11:26:58 1998 1997)) id86256605.0059C51B ; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:20:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation Keep in mind Darryl, that modulus of elasticity is a property of thebamboo, not a property of the rod, per se. The modulus calculated with theprocedure I outlined yesterday is an average due to the fact that some glueis in there, as (potentially) is pith or lower density power fiber. I'll beblasphemous for a moment here and point out that, in this respect, bambooand fiberglass or graphite are no different. They are all fiberousmaterials, just some are a little closer to nature (less removed byman-made processes) than others. Also, without restarting a discussion thread on what happens during heattreating, the modulus of elasticity of bamboo before and after heattreating may or may not be different (I don't know). For metals, heattreating has no effect on modulus. Modulus represents stiffness. Inmetals,heat treating only affects strength, not stiffness. This ends up beingconfusing, but it is important to keep in mind. Strength and stiffness aretwo different things. Lots of fun stuff for us empiricists to play with, eh? Best regards,-Ed Estlow SalarFly on 05/15/98 11:08:30 AM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation I'm sitting here thinking about what we could do with theModulus of Elasticity (ME) of bamboo and of a rod.We can determine the quality of a culm of bamboo, thehigher ME the better the power fiber. A better test thanthe Cane-otine don't you think?We can determine the effectiveness of a heat treatingmethod. Oven tempered vs. flaming or different tempsand times in the oven. Higher ME should indicate betterheat treatment as long as the bamboo doesn't get brittleand break.If we can determine the ME for every inch of a rod, like thestress curve, we should be able to tell what the action of therod will be. This should be easy to do with a deflection board.Big difference here is the stress curve can be calculated beforethe rod is made, and the ME curve is measured after the rod ismade. The usefulness of a ME curve would be in describing theaction of a rod to someone not able to actually cast the rod.With the ME of a rod we can compare six strip to five strip to fourstrip rods. Is a five strip rod actually stiffer than a six strip rod ofthesame diameter? How does a quad strip rod compare?I think the ME curve would give the flex profile of a rod. It wouldprobably look like those Tipflex - Midflex - Fulflex pictures in theOrvis catalog.Any other ideas on how to use the Modulus of Elasticity of a rod?Darryl Hayashida from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Fri May 15 11:34:51 1998 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Fri, 15 May 1998 12:34:18 -0400 Fri, 15 May 1998 12:34:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation Daryl, The deflection board trisk should work. This method is what Don Phillipsused to duplicate the action of quality bamboo rods in his boron blanks. Ican say that is works because his blank has a great, very bamboo feel toit.... SalarFly@aol.com on 05/15/98 12:08:30 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation I'm sitting here thinking about what we could do with theModulus of Elasticity (ME) of bamboo and of a rod. We can determine the quality of a culm of bamboo, thehigher ME the better the power fiber. A better test thanthe Cane-otine don't you think? We can determine the effectiveness of a heat treatingmethod. Oven tempered vs. flaming or different tempsand times in the oven. Higher ME should indicate betterheat treatment as long as the bamboo doesn't get brittleand break. If we can determine the ME for every inch of a rod, like thestress curve, we should be able to tell what the action of therod will be. This should be easy to do with a deflection board.Big difference here is the stress curve can be calculated beforethe rod is made, and the ME curve is measured after the rod ismade. The usefulness of a ME curve would be in describing theaction of a rod to someone not able to actually cast the rod. With the ME of a rod we can compare six strip to five strip to fourstrip rods. Is a five strip rod actually stiffer than a six strip rod ofthe same diameter? How does a quad strip rod compare? I think the ME curve would give the flex profile of a rod. It wouldprobably look like those Tipflex - Midflex - Fulflex pictures in theOrvis catalog. Any other ideas on how to use the Modulus of Elasticity of a rod? Darryl Hayashida from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 15 11:42:12 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules RO>Yes Reed Montague seems to be synonymous with poorly made rods androdRO>hardware but Montague made some very high quality rods a differenttimesRO>during their history, but few people could afford the price,so we see alotRO>more of their cheaper rods than of their better quality rods.RO>-----Original Message-----RO>From: Reed F. Curry RO>Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 5:54 PMRO>Subject: Re: Ferrules RO>>CA Lucker wrote:RO>>> Here is a helpful hint:RO>>>RO>>> Don't limit yourself to thinking about who makes ferrules. ThinkaboutRO>whoRO>>> MADE ferrules, or who HAD THEM MADE. This is especially helpfulforRO>folksRO>>> doing restorations and repairs.RO>>>RO>>> Chris LuckerRO>>Chris,RO>> That will scare people. What if they learn that F.E. Thomas, Leonard,RO>>Edwards, and others once used ferrules made by MONTAGUE.RO>>Best regards,RO>>ReedRO>> The better quality Montagues had very decent ferrules. Just about asgood as any of that era. (not the swiss design of course) Don Burns from thramer@presys.com Fri May 15 11:44:40 1998 0000 Subject: Middle Ground Ferrules Good question. A well made set of drawn ferrules such as Granger usedwould be an excellent idea. The man who has the website with all of theGranger hardware wanted $35 a set (2/2). Unfortunately they are worth$20:(I don't believe that he is perceptive enough to know thw differencebetween machined and drawn ferrules. They are also made of Monel anddon't blue worth a damn.A.J.Thramer from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 15 11:45:55 1998 1997)) id86256605.005B83CB ; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:39:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation I just reread Darryl's and my last posts. An additional thing I shouldpoint out that follows from modulus of elasticity being a property of thematerial is that the ME curve that Darryl describes for a rod had better beflat! After all, it's all made of bamboo! The deflection board procedure isreally looking at stiffness as a function of taper, not a funtion ofmaterial. In this situation, one would be describing a rod's action by theshape of the deflected rod. That's the why behind the bamboo action ofboron rods mentioned in the subsequent post. This could be achieved by a plot of the section modulus (NOT the same asmodulus of elasticity), which is a property of the cross section geometryas distributed along the rod - what we commonly call taper. Hope this helps. -Ed Estlow from thramer@presys.com Fri May 15 11:47:27 1998 0000 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting Fishinstix wrote: Hi,This is my first splitting attempt. I must be missing somethingsomewhere.I'm splitting my cane using the twisting method that Wayne C. shows onhisvideo. I split the cane in half. (perfect). I split the halves into thirds(perfect). Attempted to split the thirds in half again but the splitswalkedso much that I ended up with 1/4" strip at the end of the culm. I dontthinkthere is enough material left to split it again.1) What did I do wrong?2) Can you steer the splits using the twisting method? I tried but theywould not turn for me.3) Is the Garrison method more accurate?Please help! Im ruining my cane.Mark MillsHi Mark,This is where we all started to ruin cane. With practice you can readthe stick and steer the split. Eventually you can split the strips 1-2mm over. It can be very frustrating as you burn up all of the expensivecane.A.J.Thramer from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri May 15 12:01:12 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Ferrules List,I have in my possesion a 12 ft Montague and it has some of the bestferrules Ihave ever seen on any rod. The quality is as good as the Paynethat I have nobull.Bret from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Fri May 15 12:26:49 1998 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id MAA16677 for (8.8.4/8.6.8)with SMTP id MAA00927 for ; Fri, 15 May1998 Subject: Re: depth guage calibration This is also useful if you are worried about a damaged point. Someday when you have a new point, seat the guage point in ANY DIAMETER smooth-edged hole. Record the reading. Then if your point gets marred, just calibrate your guage in the hole to the original reading. Will not work if the guage base gets moved,of course. The Starrett 60 degree points do not come to a perfect point,but are cut off to a certain diameter, which is given in the catalog. Something like 0.005". ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 14 May 1998, Onis Cogburn wrote: I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from Fishinstix@aol.com Fri May 15 12:28:06 1998 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting A.J., Thanks but can you tell me how to steer the split a little.Mark from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 15 12:34:39 1998 Subject: RE:Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Good question. A well made set of drawn ferrules such as Granger usedRO>would be an excellent idea. The man who has the website with all oftheRO>Granger hardware wanted $35 a set (2/2). Unfortunately they areworthRO>$20:(RO> I don't believe that he is perceptive enough to know thw differenceRO>between machined and drawn ferrules. They are also made of Monel andRO>don't blue worth a damn.RO>A.J.Thramer A second good ferrule question is - who makes the nickel plated brassferrules that Angler's, Clemens and Netcraft sells today? I'd like tocontact them. I ask, because the design is from the fiberglass/graphite rod era andisn't a very good one for repairing older cane production-house rods -ones that came with Leonard-style or Montague "bottle"-style (femalestep-down) ferrules. I'd be interested in seeing the reintroduction a line of NPBLeonard-style ferrules to the market for repairing old production rods.I'd even be willing to act as the dis't. for them if the cost wasn'tbeyond belief. Don Burns from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri May 15 12:50:17 1998 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: First attempt at splitting bend the half of the strip in a arc away from the splitting knife whichever side you want the split to move towards. if the split is movingright, bend the left side in a arc and the split will move towards it ----------From: Fishinstix[SMTP:Fishinstix@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 15, 1998 10:27 AM Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting A.J., Thanks but can you tell me how to steer the split a little.Mark from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 15 12:56:17 1998 1997)) id86256605.0061F4EB ; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:49:56 -0500 Subject: RE:Middle Ground Ferrules Don, Could existing samples be reverse engineered - detailed inspections donebya qualified machinist/inspector, a set of detailed shop drawings done, andsubmitted to any local small machine shop to produce in a quantity thatyou're comfortable paying for? (Keeping in mind of course, a good writtenagreement and a modest quality control program.) Best regards,-Ed Estlow flyfisher@cmix.com on 05/15/98 11:34:08 AM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE:Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Good question. A well made set of drawn ferrules such as Granger usedRO>would be an excellent idea. The man who has the website with all oftheRO>Granger hardware wanted $35 a set (2/2). Unfortunately they areworthRO>$20:(RO> I don't believe that he is perceptive enough to know thw differenceRO>between machined and drawn ferrules. They are also made of Monel andRO>don't blue worth a damn.RO>A.J.ThramerA second good ferrule question is - who makes the nickel plated brassferrules that Angler's, Clemens and Netcraft sells today? I'd like tocontact them.I ask, because the design is from the fiberglass/graphite rod era andisn't a very good one for repairing older cane production-house rods -ones that came with Leonard-style or Montague "bottle"-style (femalestep-down) ferrules.I'd be interested in seeing the reintroduction a line of NPBLeonard-style ferrules to the market for repairing old production rods.I'd even be willing to act as the dis't. for them if the cost wasn'tbeyond belief.Don Burns from flyfisher@nextdim.com Fri May 15 12:57:33 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A094F760138; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:51:16 PDT Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting In answer to Mark I too was taught to use the twisting method forsplittingbut I soon changed to Garrison's method and had much better luck in that Iwas able to steer the split the way I wanted it to go. I split muchdifferent than most people do in that I split butt section strips intopieces that will make two strips and tip sections into pieces that willmakefour strips each, such as butt sections for most rods are .770 wide and tipsections are .880 wide. Tip section pieces are first split in half then halfagain. I mark each section and strip so that in the assembled rod they willbe put together so that no strip is adjancent to a strip as it came from theculm, my way of spreading the variables in the densities or whatever inthebamboo. I use an old pruning hook to do my splitting but I have also used alinoleum knife but they are not quite as ridgid as the pruning hook. startat each node and work the split both ways and I dont think you will wastemuch bamboo. Feel free to contact me of list if you have any questions.Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com- ----Original Message----- Subject: First attempt at splitting Hi,This is my first splitting attempt. I must be missing somethingsomewhere.I'm splitting my cane using the twisting method that Wayne C. shows onhisvideo. I split the cane in half. (perfect). I split the halves intothirds(perfect). Attempted to split the thirds in half again but the splitswalkedso much that I ended up with 1/4" strip at the end of the culm. I dontthinkthere is enough material left to split it again.1) What did I do wrong?2) Can you steer the splits using the twisting method? I tried but theywould not turn for me.3) Is the Garrison method more accurate?Please help! Im ruining my cane.Mark Mills from CALucker@aol.com Fri May 15 13:15:17 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules Reed,Your curious remark that Leonard, FE Thomas, and Edwards once usedferrulesmade by Montague raises more questions than it answers.Which years did FE Thomas, Edwards and especially Leonard use Montagueferrules? On which model rods? I am puzzled regarding exactly which Edwards rod company are youreferring to?I am equally puzzled regarding your remarks about Leonard. Are you sureyoudon't mean to say that some rods sold my Mills have Montague ferrules? Notall rods sold by Mills were Leonards. The Leonard and Thomas shops had some fine crafstmen dedicated tofabricatingferrules and other hardware. I am hopeful that your comments do not hurttheir reputations in any way. I am sure you know who I am referring to.Perhaps you have even spoken to them.Finally, do you have a problem with all Montague ferrules, or just the onesyou see on the low end rods? I think Montague had some fine ferrulemodels. I have been reading the stuff on this Newsgroup for quite some time. Doesn'tit seem odd that so many appeals for guidance or advice are directed tothelist members when there are real rod builders who are willing to sharetheirinsights, experiences, and materials? Most of these guys are not with usanymore, but a few are left. They have a wealth of knowledge, and evenhelpstraightening out some of the misinformation that was been in printed inthegrey book published in the Seventies and that big two volume thing thatcamealong a few years later.Find these guys and let them share what they know and what they stillhave inboxes.Chris Lucker from SalarFly@aol.com Fri May 15 13:15:48 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation In a message dated 5/15/98 9:30:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes: Lots of fun stuff for us empiricists to play with, eh? You betcha! Thanks for the post, I can see I was going a bit off trackwith the ME. Looking back at your post on calculatingME I see the diameter is a factor and with smaller diameterdeflection would be greater - giving the same number forME. But, I think I am still on track with testing heat treatmentmethods, because with heat treatment diameter shouldstay the same (or get smaller from moisture loss) anddeflection should be less giving a higher ME number. Darryl Hayashida from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri May 15 13:46:49 1998 Subject: Wright McGill Granger Victory taper This rod belongs to a friend who wants to sell it. He is looking for about$450. It is an 8 1/2 foot, 3/2, five weight. He has had it about 20 yearsand never used it. It was obviously lightly used before that. I spent an hourcleaning and polishing, and the thing looks like new, except for someminorscuff marks in the varnish. I cast it and it has a pleasant moderate action.If anyone is interested, please contact me offline. Jerry, perhaps this isone Section length- 34 1/2" - Measured with light varnish on. --.005/.006total?0 - .0685 - .08210-.10115-.11820-.13425-.14430-.15835- in ferrule36- .17540-.19445-.21450-.22855-.24360-.24965-.25270-.27575-.29280- .30585-.32090-.33091- start butt swell92 -.380 from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 15 14:38:50 1998 Subject: RE:Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Don, RO>Could existing samples be reverse engineered - detailed inspectionsdone byRO>a qualified machinist/inspector, a set of detailed shop drawings done,andRO>submitted to any local small machine shop to produce in a quantitythatRO>you're comfortable paying for? (Keeping in mind of course, a goodwrittenRO>agreement and a modest quality control program.) RO>Best regards,RO>-Ed Estlow Ed, They need to be drawn, not machined. You'd need to find a metal stampingcompany. This could be done, but the quantities that most stamping companieswould want to do for their minimum order (1,000 - 10,000 pieces?) wouldblow the whole budget and most likely on just a single "64th" sizealone. Don from Fishinstix@aol.com Fri May 15 16:19:55 1998 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting Thank you all for your replies. I think I will try the Garrison method nexttime out.....Mark from MasjC1@aol.com Fri May 15 16:54:50 1998 Subject: Re: Re: First attempt at splitting Mark, My first attempt to split went the same way as yours. I went back andviewedWayne's video and had much better luck on the second culm. I think thetrickis to brace the end against something - in my case it was the carpet - soyoucan bend the culm in the required direction to control the run of the split.Ialso used my leg to help form the bend. With the end of the strip in thecarpet, I was able to brace against my leg and bend the culm in the desireddirection. Switch sides as required. Take it slow and easy and don't beafraidto bend the bamboo. Although I had a number of bad splits I was able togetenough strips to build a rod. The fact that the first culm did not result in arod was a matter of over heating the nodes during straightening. Mark Cole from Canerods@aol.com Fri May 15 17:44:34 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules In a message dated 98-05-15 13:02:07 EDT, you write: Bret, Is this the 12' rod that Dick Spurr had FS a few years ago - a Manitou12'er? OBTW - Heddon purchased all of their ferrules. I'd guess at least 2 or 3sources were used, based upon the welt designs. Don Burns from thramer@presys.com Fri May 15 18:25:55 1998 0000 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting Fishinstix wrote: A.J.,Thanks but can you tell me how to steer the split a little.MarkHi Mark,I was not trying to be evasive, but I will try to remember how I steerit. I can remember that I had to split the strips much wider than I donow as I did not have as much control of the material.I start with the 6 pieces as most of the list does, I then split outthe double tip strips. If the size I will need is close to 1/2 of thewidth of the strip then I will split the strip down the center. This Ithink is key. When you work a strip out by dividing the larger piece inhalf then you have an equal amount of pressure on both sides and thestrip will tend to split more evenly. Always start the strip with ameasured crack at the nodes, never at the end of the bamboo.I think that with these two tips you will soon be splitting with thebest of them. Write back if ther are any more problems.A.J.Thramer from thramer@presys.com Fri May 15 18:30:18 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Good question. A well made set of drawn ferrules such as GrangerusedRO>would be an excellent idea. The man who has the website with all oftheRO>Granger hardware wanted $35 a set (2/2). Unfortunately they areworthRO>$20:(RO> I don't believe that he is perceptive enough to know thw differenceRO>between machined and drawn ferrules. They are also made of MonelandRO>don't blue worth a damn.RO>A.J.Thramer A second good ferrule question is - who makes the nickel plated brassferrules that Angler's, Clemens and Netcraft sells today? I'd like tocontact them. I ask, because the design is from the fiberglass/graphite rod era andisn't a very good one for repairing older cane production-house rods -ones that came with Leonard-style or Montague "bottle"-style (femalestep-down) ferrules. I'd be interested in seeing the reintroduction a line of NPBLeonard-style ferrules to the market for repairing old production rods.I'd even be willing to act as the dis't. for them if the cost wasn'tbeyond belief. Don BurnsHi Don,My brother and I are working on a punch and die set to punch ferrules.Not an overly complicated thing to do in the normal realm ofmanufacturing but all the usual bamboo problems rear their head, lowquantity, and lack of a known market. And of course another underfundedenterprise.A.J.thramer from cbogart@shentel.net Fri May 15 18:41:05 1998 Subject: Re: depth guage calibration JohnYou can do some very simple geometry to figure thisout - remember we are dealing with a 30-60-90 triangle. Usethe radius of the hole will be one sidge of a triangle - what youneed to find is the side which equates to depth. This method lets you calibrate the depth gauge even ifthe tip has been abused and not a point no longer. If you do twoholes - you set the gauge using the first - then set the point in thesecond hole and it should read exactly what you calculate. Verysimple but saves you setting forms badly. The math is very simular to those who set their forms usingrods - very good method for setting Quad forms. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 21:27:03 -0400, JOHN E COLE wrote: Chris explain the depth gauge calibrationin a little more detail. Thanks John ColeOn Thu, 14 May 1998 19:42:28 -0600 "Chris Bogart" writes:OnisI would do that with more than one hole - just as a sanitycheck - if the 1st hole is not exactly what you think it is. - the othersshould come out correct. I would try 3/16ths as the 2nd hole.but you are correct. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 19:19:15 -0500, Onis Cogburn wrote: I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Take a convenient piece of flat steel;thickness is not important but probably should be at least1/8" thick. Drill a hole (~1/8") in the steel; a drillpress is recommended to get the hole perpendicular. Anundersized hole and a reamer would probably increase theaccuracy. Level the piece of steel like you did the sole ofyour plane and you have a calibrator for your depth gauge.The accuracy is as good as the finished diameter of thehole. Now to use it. Since the point of the depth gauge is 60 degrees, the depthgauge will think the hole is: depth = 1/2 * (diameter of hole) * tan 60. Set your depth guage to read .108 and you are calibrated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Regards Chris _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Fri May 15 18:43:01 1998 Subject: Blue Ridge BBQ To All Looks like the weather will be great - the Shenandoah is Down andfishabledespite the rains earlier this week. The mountian streams are "PrimeTime" rightnowand fishing has been terriffic. So look forward to seeing all those who areshowingup Tmw and Sunday. Regards Chris from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 15 19:15:26 1998 Subject: Farlow rod finish? All, I recently purchased a Norm Thompson by Farlow's rod, it's finishdoesn't seem to be varnish. It also doesn't seem to be impregnated likean Orvis rod. It almost seems to be covered in epoxy. The rod doen'tseem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods - isthis their method? Thanks in advance for any help. Don Burns from saltwein@swbell.net Fri May 15 19:22:46 1998 gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net TAA04851 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting Fishinstix wrote: A.J.,Thanks but can you tell me how to steer the split a little.Mark Mark, I am on my third rod and I haven't begun to try to master this yet as Idon't want to lose cane at this point. My first attempts ended much asyours, with some pointy short pieces of firewood. I sharpened some screw drivers and have split that way. I am stillinterested in the guided split but with everything else haven'tattempted to master it yet. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from rcurry@top.monad.net Fri May 15 19:35:46 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules - A meek reply CA Lucker wrote: Reed,Your curious remark that Leonard, FE Thomas, and Edwards once usedferrulesmade by Montague raises more questions than it answers.Which years did FE Thomas, Edwards and especially Leonard use Montagueferrules? On which model rods?I am puzzled regarding exactly which Edwards rod company are youreferring to?I am equally puzzled regarding your remarks about Leonard. Are you sureyoudon't mean to say that some rods sold my Mills have Montague ferrules? Notall rods sold by Mills were Leonards.The Leonard and Thomas shops had some fine crafstmen dedicated tofabricatingferrules and other hardware. I am hopeful that your comments do nothurttheir reputations in any way. I am sure you know who I am referring to.Perhaps you have even spoken to them.Finally, do you have a problem with all Montague ferrules, or just theonesyou see on the low end rods? I think Montague had some fine ferrulemodels. I have been reading the stuff on this Newsgroup for quite some time. Doesn'tit seem odd that so many appeals for guidance or advice are directed tothelist members when there are real rod builders who are willing to sharetheirinsights, experiences, and materials? Most of these guys are not with usanymore, but a few are left. They have a wealth of knowledge, and evenhelpstraightening out some of the misinformation that was been in printed inthegrey book published in the Seventies and that big two volume thing thatcamealong a few years later.Find these guys and let them share what they know and what they stillhave inboxes.Chris LuckerChris,First, I'd like to set right a misunderstanding which arose from myremark. I have had some excellent Montague rods and am currentlyenjoying fishing with a 9' 3wt. Montague (blackened NS ferrules andjewelry, engraved and monogrammed) restored (superbly!) by a fellowlist- member. I traded him a 1905 Leonard in very good condition for it.Chris, I know only one rodmaker that worked during the era whenMontague was marketing ferrules, reelseats, etc, to the industry. He hasnever mentioned that any of the Edwards went outside for ferrules, butI've never asked. I've seen his stock of F.E.Thomas ferrules (he ownsthe company) and some of them were definitely drawn. I also have apre-1930 Dirigo with drawn ferrules but brazed welt. I also have aNichols with the very ornate ferrules shown for sale in an earlyMontague catalogue. According to Keane (pg. 133), Geo. Varney (implied while working forMontague) supplied NS fittings to Thomas, Edwards, and others during theearly 1900's. Also, on pg. 103, Keane remarks that Edwards boughtMontague (Varney) ferrules and then modified them.Now, everyone has disagreements with some of Mr. Keane's remarks,but I hope I'm off the hook on this one.Best regards,Reed from CampblRods@aol.com Fri May 15 19:37:32 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules Does anyone know what the process is for making ferrules to fit quadrods? Oris there anyone who makes them for sale?Steve CampbellCampbell Rod Co.Brewer,MaineCampblRods@aol.com from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Fri May 15 19:55:52 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Ferrules Reed,I checked it out. Don't most of the sizes mentioned seem a littlelarge for most trout rods being built today?Harry Boyd Reed F. Curry wrote: If you want a source of NS ferrules to rework, you might want to checkout this item: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14081480 (Usual disclaimer) Best regards,Reed from jcole10@juno.com Fri May 15 21:03:51 1998 22:02:07 EDT Subject: Re: depth guage calibration Chris ,Thanks for reply. I think I can do that now.John ColeOn Fri, 15 May 1998 19:50:42 -0600 "Chris Bogart" writes:JohnYou can do some very simple geometry to figure thisout - remember we are dealing with a 30-60- 90 triangle. Usethe radius of the hole will be one sidge of a triangle - what youneed to find is the side which equates to depth. This method lets you calibrate the depth gauge even ifthe tip has been abused and not a point no longer. If you do twoholes - you set the gauge using the first - then set the point in thesecond hole and it should read exactly what you calculate. Verysimple but saves you setting forms badly. The math is very simular to those who set their forms usingrods - very good method for setting Quad forms. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 21:27:03 -0400, JOHN E COLE wrote: Chris explain the depth gauge calibrationin a little more detail. Thanks John ColeOn Thu, 14 May 1998 19:42:28 -0600 "Chris Bogart" writes:OnisI would do that with more than one hole - just as a sanitycheck - if the 1st hole is not exactly what you think it is. - the othersshould come out correct. I would try 3/16ths as the 2nd hole.but you are correct. Chris On Thu, 14 May 1998 19:19:15 -0500, Onis Cogburn wrote: I don't know if this has been previously published on thelist but here it is anyway. A reasonable calibrator for your depth gauge is just asclose as a hole! Take a convenient piece of flat steel;thickness is not important but probably should be at least1/8" thick. Drill a hole (~1/8") in the steel; a drillpress is recommended to get the hole perpendicular. Anundersized hole and a reamer would probably increase theaccuracy. Level the piece of steel like you did the sole ofyour plane and you have a calibrator for your depth gauge.The accuracy is as good as the finished diameter of thehole. Now to use it. Since the point of the depth gauge is 60 degrees, the depthgauge will think the hole is: depth = 1/2 * (diameter of hole) * tan 60. Set your depth guage to read .108 and you are calibrated. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Regards Chris _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] Regards Chris _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri May 15 21:22:45 1998 Subject: So. Bend #326- 9' -3pc List, I found a So. Bend 9' # 326 today that is in NM condition. It looked like ithad never been put together and I know it has never been fished. The rodbaglooked brand new and the label was still on the thumb print looking alsobrandnew. It has an original cardboard tube that has all the markings on it andyou could still read the label. Tube in good condition. If anyone isinterested in this rod let me know as I think that it is worth the $ 185.00that the guy is asking. I looked at Bob Summers site and he had a # 359for$165.00 and a 323 for $225.00 so I think this is not to bad. If you areinterested in this rod let me know and I will make arrangements for thepurchase of same.Bret from Canerods@aol.com Fri May 15 21:54:45 1998 Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules In a message dated 98-05-15 19:36:24 EDT, you write: A.J., The cost of Angler's NPB ferrules doubled from last year - maybe therewill bemore profit for your venture now? But I agree, small quanities of sales/year vs large production lots to getthecost down means large inventories to carry. That or the cost will be sohighthat the sales price will nearly equal that of a quality NS ferrule, makingthe effort not worth it. You'd need die sets for size 9 (or 10) through size 18 sizes - both maleandfemale too. Then nickel plate and chrome plate options. Argh! Don Burns from FLYROD777@aol.com Sat May 16 00:05:04 1998 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Leichtung Workshops has one of these drill operated lathes for under $70. 1-800-321-6840. Mark from channer@hubwest.com Sat May 16 01:14:00 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AF013C40170; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:15:29 MDT Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? At 01:04 AM 5/16/98 EDT, you wrote:Leichtung Workshops has one of these drill operated lathes for under $70. 1-800-321-6840. Mark Mark;You can get a drill stand for about $15.00 and make some supports for therod out of scrap wood. Mount a variable speed drill and chuck in the rod bythe reel seat end(before mounting the reel seat. Turn the rod at a slowspeed(lock the trigger, if you don't have a drill, you can get a cheapie atone of the Marts). Shape the cork with sandpaper. This will get you byuntil decide to buy a lathe, if you are like me, it will last about 3 rods.Take my advise, don't attempt to shape ferrule stations with this rig, thetips can't take it.Have fun! John Channer from cbogart@shentel.net Sat May 16 08:09:46 1998 head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA03741; Sat, 16 May199809:09:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Farlow rod finish? Don I have repaired this exact same rod model - it is indeed impregnated-and it goesall the way through. A really gummy stuff it you have to scarf a tiptogether.You can buff it to a nice sheen with a tung oil mixture. Chris On Fri, 15 May 1998 17:14:52 -0600, flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: All, I recently purchased a Norm Thompson by Farlow's rod, it's finishdoesn't seem to be varnish. It also doesn't seem to be impregnated likean Orvis rod. It almost seems to be covered in epoxy. The rod doen'tseem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods - isthis their method? Thanks in advance for any help. Don Burns from 106256.3171@compuserve.com Sat May 16 11:15:15 1998 Subject: Splice Angle LAA07662 I am attempting my first nodeless rod and have made up a wooden splicingblock as per the Garrison book with an angle of 4 degrees. This angleseemsto be very small to me and in using it I am planning away a lot of goodbamboo. Can anyone confirm that I have got the correct angle on the block Iwould have thought maybe about 10 degrees would have been better.Thanks in advance Mick. Woodruff. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat May 16 11:40:11 1998 mail.wzrd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA17069 for Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules At 10:53 PM 5/15/98 EDT, you wrote:In a message dated 98-05-15 19:36:24 EDT, you write: Not an overly complicated thing to do in the normal realm ofmanufacturing but all the usual bamboo problems rear their head, lowquantity, and lack of a known market. And of course another underfundedenterprise.A.J.thramer >> A.J., The cost of Angler's NPB ferrules doubled from last year - maybe therewill bemore profit for your venture now? But I agree, small quanities of sales/year vs large production lots to getthecost down means large inventories to carry. That or the cost will be sohighthat the sales price will nearly equal that of a quality NS ferrule, makingthe effort not worth it. You'd need die sets for size 9 (or 10) through size 18 sizes - both maleandfemale too. Then nickel plate and chrome plate options. Argh! Don Burns Perhaps this enterprise is a perfict fit for the "just-in-time"manufactring principle. Jeep your inventories low and make productionrunsin response to demand. It seems to me- I might be very wrong- that thetimerequired to "puch" out feurrles shoouldn't be long. I do not, however knowwhether you can easily set up for nickel plating. - Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from Fallcreek9@aol.com Sat May 16 11:48:39 1998 Subject: Re: Snake guides Thanks, Don. Looks like I had some bad information/assumptions.Richard from flyfisher@cmix.com Sat May 16 12:05:56 1998 Subject: Re: Snake guides RO>Thanks, Don. Looks like I had some bad information/assumptions.RO>Richard Richard, These are the B.M. part #'s, so if you are ordering elsewhere - GOK'swhat system is in use. Don PS - The last time I went to Marriott's, they told me that they sent allof the old style guides back to PacBay. So anyone ordering from themshouldn't have to worry about getting guides that can't be matched inthe future. from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sat May 16 12:26:31 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id ADF51480126; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:33:41 PDT Subject: Re: Farlow rod finish? -----Original Message----- Subject: Farlow rod finish?It also doesn't seem to be impregnated likean Orvis rod. It almost seems to be covered in epoxy. The rod doen'tseem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods Dear Don Yes, I think this rod was actually made by Sharpe's (whether or not itsays,"made in Aberdeen") and almost certainly is impregnated. The "epoxy"effect has got me stumped, though. My thinking is that it was done by anowner. My eight farthings' worth. Davy from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sat May 16 12:32:37 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id AF6415B0126; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:39:48 PDT Subject: Spey rod taper boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD80B7.ABFB8540" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD80B7.ABFB8540 Dear Listers This is for the guys who were interested in Spey-type tapers. Sorry it =tookso long to dig it up. E. Gale and Sons, Barnstaple- 13ft. 1 1/2 in. 5 .15410 .18015 .21220 .21825 .23330 .25535 .27440 .28245 .29350 (ferrule break is at 51 1/8)55 .32560 .34565 .37370 .39575 .41280 .42585 .44890 .45495 .463100 .480105 (ferrule break)110 .482115 .490120 .508125 .538130 .543 The grip totals 25 inches long. The ferrules are heavy bronze with a 1 1/4 turn helix for locking.Someone (sorry, I can't recall who) mentioned an english rod with these =typeferrules a few weeks back. If anybody is interested, I can make a quick sketch of them and scan it.They'd make an interesting exercise for a budding machinist! Davy PS For those of the list who are not metrically impaired, Mikael =Marklund (see makers link off the Rodmakers page) has a taper for a 13' =rod. The stations are the standard 5" but the offsets are mm. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD80B7.ABFB8540 Dear ListersThis is for the guys who were interested in= = .538130 .543The grip totals 25 inches long.The = heavy bronze with a 1 1/4 turn helix for locking.Someone (sorry, I = recall who) mentioned an english rod with these typeferrules a few = back.If anybody is interested, I can make a quick sketch of them = machinist!Davy impaired, Mikael Marklund (see makers link off the Rodmakers page) has a= mm. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD80B7.ABFB8540-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat May 16 18:45:48 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Sharpening Tom, (or maybe George)Thanks for the great tip. I made up one of these wheels yesterday anditreally works great. I used laminated soft pine 1X4's, vegetable tannedleather,and green honing compound, and got a shave your arm hairs sharp mirrorfinish onaHock blade in about 5 seconds! One question springs to mind: How do youhandlethe back (un-beveled) side of the blade? I see no burr, but do you brieflytouchthe back of the blade to the wheel freehanded, or hone the back on awaterstoneordiamond stone or whatever, or just leave it alone?Again, thanks for the single most time and energy saving tip I've seenonthislist in almost a year of faithful reading.Harry Boyd TSmithwick wrote: Over the weekend George Barnes mentioned the diamond paste andleather wheelmethod of sharpening. Both of us have discussed this in the past, but forthenewbies, a photo is listed at:http:// members.aol.com/tsmithwickThe file is named sharpening.jpg. The method involves sawing a 5 3/4"circleout of a 2 X 6, truing it up, and contact cementing a leather strip to theOD.The wheel is then mounted to a motor or pillow block, and turns away from theblade. A block is clamped to the bench to hold the blade at the sameangleevery time. It sharpens to a mirror polish in seconds.The leather is charged with diamond lapping compound if you are using acarbide tipped blade, a standard blade will sharpen well withWoodcraft'shoning compound. I haven't used a bench stone since George talked meintotrying this. from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat May 16 20:02:29 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Sharpening In a message dated 5/16/98 11:46:24 PM, you wrote: Harry - I am glad to hear of your success with this method. I usually do afreehand swipe with the wheel, but it is probably not necessary. The othermethods would probably work also. from deuchman@hereintown.net Sat May 16 21:30:48 1998 1998 22:32:26-0400 Subject: Re: Splicing Angle =_NextPart_000_01BD811A.80C6FFE0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD811A.80C6FFE0 I am attempting my first nodeless rod and have made up a wooden splicing=block as per the Garrison book with an angle of 4 degrees. This angle =seems to be very small to me and in using it I am planning away a lot of =good bamboo. Can anyone confirm that I have got the correct angle on the =block I would have thought maybe about 10 degrees would have been =better. Thanks in advance Mick. Woodruff.True, the angle does seem small, but basing my experience with splicing =wood for other uses (cedar strip canoe building, and texts on plywood =kayaks) the splice should be at a length to thickness ratio of 8:1. To =explain a bit, a 1/4 inch sheet of plywood would have a bevel at least 2 =inches wide at the splice point. This is a minimum, of course, and if =you are getting something longer than that, then you should be just =fine. from the boat building texts this is to provide a "stronger than =the surrounding wood" joint. Rich Keller230 National HighwayLaVale, MD. 21502deuchman@hereintown.net> from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat May 16 22:05:061998 ix6.ix.netcom.comvia smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Splice Angle Hi Mick. I've used angles from 2 degrees to 7 degrees. 2 degrees made thesplice to long for me. I found 2.5 to 3 degrees best for me. You are inthe right ballpark. Try more and less to find what suits you best. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 12:14 PM 5/16/98 -0400, you wrote:I am attempting my first nodeless rod and have made up a woodensplicingblock as per the Garrison book with an angle of 4 degrees. This angleseemsto be very small to me and in using it I am planning away a lot of goodbamboo. Can anyone confirm that I have got the correct angle on the blockIwould have thought maybe about 10 degrees would have been better.Thanks in advance Mick. Woodruff. from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 17 02:15:56 1998 ; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:15:40 +1200 Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? Chris The following is the Hardy Palakona "Perfection Featherwieght ". It throwsavery nice weight 5 line and is very pleasent to use . My calipers are inmetric so I have converted to inches .. if it looks badly wrong somewhereitis likely in my conversion. The rod has the original varnish on it and thefollowing dimensions include varnish . I am not sure what to reduce thesize The rod is 8' 9" including a 10 and half inch cork handle Dimensions from the tip : 0"...0835" .09810" .13015" .14620" .15825" .16530" .17735" .18940" .20545" .22050" .228ferrule 52" to 54.5 inches 55" .23660" .24465" .26470" .26875" .27680" .29185" .30790" .31994.5" .327handle 10.5 "inches Regards Ian kearney At 08:07 PM 10/05/98 -0800, you wrote:Ian,That would be great! Just pick your favorite 9'. I don't want you to gothroughtoo much trouble. Thank you very much for your help. Best Regards, Chris Wohlford Ian Kearney wrote: At 05:30 PM 10/05/98 -0800, you wrote: Chris I have a number of Hardy rods but mainly in the 9' and 10' sizes . I willrun the caliper over them if they are the size you are looking for . regards iank Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun May 17 02:16:46 1998 Sun, 17 May 1998 15:16:39 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Splice Angle On Sat, 16 May 1998, MICK WOODRUFF wrote: I am attempting my first nodeless rod and have made up a woodensplicingblock as per the Garrison book with an angle of 4 degrees. This angleseemsto be very small to me and in using it I am planning away a lot of goodbamboo. Can anyone confirm that I have got the correct angle on theblock Iwould have thought maybe about 10 degrees would have been better.Thanks in advance Mick. Woodruff. I'd be inclined to try a 1:20 or 1:25 slope to the angle Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun May 17 02:24:13 1998 Sun, 17 May 1998 15:24:02 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Splicing Angle On Sat, 16 May 1998, Richard E. Keller, Jr. wrote:better. Thanks in advance Mick. Woodruff.True, the angle does seem small, but basing my experience with splicing=wood for other uses (cedar strip canoe building, and texts on plywood =kayaks) the splice should be at a length to thickness ratio of 8:1. To =explain a bit, a 1/4 inch sheet of plywood would have a bevel at least 2 =inches wide at the splice point. This is a minimum, of course, and if =you are getting something longer than that, then you should be just =fine. from the boat building texts this is to provide a "stronger than =the surrounding wood" joint. Rich Keller230 National HighwayLaVale, MD. 21502deuchman@hereintown.net The 1:8 for softwood and 1:12 for hardwood dosn't realy work with this situation. The problem is that cane dosn't scarf as well as wood so while the scarf on wood is certainly stronger than the non-scarfed wood and you can be pretty rough with it a cane scarf isn't as robust. Add to this the fact you will be planing almost all the cane around the scarf away with a lot of flipping one side to the other and lifting up to measure a 1:20 would be better. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from deuchman@hereintown.net Sun May 17 05:44:01 1998 1998 06:45:48-0400 Subject: RE: Splicing Angle =_NextPart_000_01BD815F.6D08A040" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD815F.6D08A040 The 1:8 for softwood and 1:12 for hardwood dosn't realy work with this situation. The problem is that cane dosn't scarf as well as wood so while the scarf on wood is certainly stronger than the non-scarfed wood and you can be pretty rough with it a cane scarf isn't as robust. Add to this the fact you will be planing almost all the cane around the scarf away with a lot of flipping one side to the other and lifting up to measure a 1:20 would be better. Good point. Having not worked with cane (yet!) I could only drawconclusions from the other woodworking arenas. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD815F.6D08A040 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD815F.6D08A040-- from russettrods@hotmail.com Sun May 17 08:19:15 1998 Sun, 17 May 1998 06:18:43 PDT Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Re homemade cork lathe, Ive been using my hand electric drill held inmy vice ever since Digger tought me years ago. Never thought I needed anything else. I dont see why a drill press wouldn't work as well as long as you can get used to turning vertically. As mentioned before just be sure its centered. Larry ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from russettrods@hotmail.com Sun May 17 08:53:36 1998 Sun, 17 May 1998 06:53:01 PDT Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting A.J., Thanks but can you tell me how to steer the split a little.Mark Mark Re your splitting problems. Are you filing/removing your nodes prior to splitting. Also I find it much easier to do the final splits if I remove some of the interior pith. Then sorry to say it does get easier with practice. I suggest practicing on your worst cane first. Larry http://members.tripod.com/~RUSSETTRODS/index.html ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sun May 17 10:20:43 1998 (METDST) Subject: broken wrappings Dear "teachers"! Just back from my mountain fishing for wild brown trouts. Was not verygood, we had a few very hot days and the snow beguns to melt. Thefishingwas not easy, but had some trouts on the dry fly. Okay. here`s theproblem; I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? Regards and thanks in advance for any help Stefan Switzerland from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun May 17 10:34:40 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: broken wrappings Stefan,I'm new to this, so I don't know for sure, but Garrison recommends usingtwo separate wraps at the ferrules; one to just cover the tabs, andanotherbelow the ferrule. He suggests that these wraps being separated helpsprevent the winding from breaking at this point of high stress. I doubtthat will keep the varnish from cracking, but it should preserve thestrength of the wraps themselves.Hope this helps.Harry Boyd gespliesst@bluewin.ch wrote: Dear "teachers"! Just back from my mountain fishing for wild brown trouts. Was not verygood, we had a few very hot days and the snow beguns to melt. Thefishingwas not easy, but had some trouts on the dry fly. Okay. here`s theproblem; I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? Regards and thanks in advance for any help StefanSwitzerland from flyfisher@nextdim.com Sun May 17 13:28:47 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id AB0C90B0132; Sun, 17 May 1998 11:23:08 PDT Subject: Re: broken wrappings Stephan, maybe you should make the taper of the ferrules a little thinnersothat it will flex more in the transition between the metal and the bamboo.Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com- ----Original Message----- Subject: Re: broken wrappings Stefan,I'm new to this, so I don't know for sure, but Garrison recommendsusingtwo separate wraps at the ferrules; one to just cover the tabs, andanotherbelow the ferrule. He suggests that these wraps being separated helpsprevent the winding from breaking at this point of high stress. I doubtthat will keep the varnish from cracking, but it should preserve thestrength of the wraps themselves.Hope this helps.Harry Boyd gespliesst@bluewin.ch wrote: Dear "teachers"! Just back from my mountain fishing for wild brown trouts. Was not verygood, we had a few very hot days and the snow beguns to melt. Thefishingwas not easy, but had some trouts on the dry fly. Okay. here`s theproblem; I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? Regards and thanks in advance for any help StefanSwitzerland from gwbarnes@gwi.net Sun May 17 13:44:42 1998 Subject: Re: Sharpening Harry Boyd wrote: Tom, (or maybe George)Thanks for the great tip. Harry: Unless a blade needs some heavy honing, I usually head for the one inckleatherbelton a i" belt sander. With this approach I hold the beveled edge on the beltbyeyetnemn turn it over and hold the back of the blade flat against the belt. IfI'mon thewheel, I'll usually do the back on the belt as well. George from gwbarnes@gwi.net Sun May 17 13:45:00 1998 Subject: I Was Totally Surprised. I suppose it would be practically impossible to find a rod maker who didnot know who Leonard was and at least part of his history. But how manyknow that he also made fire arms? Several nights ago, there was adisplay of muzzle loading hand guns at our Civil War Roundtable. In themidst of the display, but prominent because it was one of the betterappearing pieces, was a long barreled hand gun, made by Leonard when heoperated from Bangor, Maine. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun May 17 15:52:31 1998 Subject: Re: I Was Totally Surprised. George,I understand that alot of the old cane rod builders started outas Gunsmiths, just as I did. It is an easier transition from Gunsmith to Rod Maker. As a Gunsmith you have the equipment and the ability to makevery intricate parts. A lot of what you need to know as a Cane Rod Maker you already know as a gunsmith. Dave LeClair from flyfisher@cmix.com Sun May 17 19:47:12 1998 Subject: Taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece rod boundary="tcpsmtp517515ab9393ab36278ab" * Note * This message contains an attachement that has been encodedusing* Note * the MIME standard. If you see this portion of the message, the* Note * mail client you are using does not understand MIME. --tcpsmtp517515ab9393ab36278ab All, I'm restoring several damaged 8' Heddon 1-3/4F rods, so some sectionswill have incomplete information. I haven't averaged the data - it's presented raw. I hope this can besaved to the archives too. OBTW, the Heddon 1-3/4F rod was a HDH rated rod. (5DT) Don Burns See attached "DOC" file for data --tcpsmtp517515ab9393ab36278ab 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--tcpsmtp517515ab9393ab36278ab-- from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sun May 17 21:09:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id AA0F7060076; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:16:47 PDT Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? Dear Ian Thanks very much indeed for that taper- and thank you, Chris, forrequestingit! I, for one, would be most interested in seeing the stats for aten-footer. I'm keen on these rods whether for trout or salmon. If you don't have time to convert to English, just shoot me the metric data.I can hash it out on my little HP in a few seconds. I would be cosmicallygrateful :-) Davy from sats@gte.net Sun May 17 21:21:56 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation VAA29971 If we can determine the ME for every inch of a rod, like thestress curve, we should be able to tell what the action of therod will be. This should be easy to do with a deflection board.Big difference here is the stress curve can be calculated beforethe rod is made, and the ME curve is measured after the rod ismade. The usefulness of a ME curve would be in describing the action of a rod to someone not able to actually cast the rod. Almost what I've been working on for the last six months or so I got Don Phillips to send me a copy of his article, from Fly Fishermagazine. He'd probably be willing to share it with us as a down load. I don't knowwhatthe copy right laws are. I just finished a rod using DEFLECTION as one of my tests. Depending ontheoriginal deflection of the rod, removing about .010 can change thedeflection from 10% to about 33%. Using deflection as a standard allows different rods to be built to a verysimilar action. Of course because no two bamboo strips are exactly thesame, notwo rods will ever equal each other. A deflection board isn't hard to make, although I'm about ready to use"lessonslearned" on number two. For weight, you can use simple lead sinkers, soldin 1to 8 oz. size. I was surprised at how close they are to the stated weight.(If you're real fussy, add a little weight or shave some off.) The thing is, it's a way to find out what you got after you've got it. It would be interesting to know the deflection of some of the standardtapersthat are out there. Terry Kirkpatrick--Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sun May 17 21:26:42 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id AE073AD010E; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:33:43 PDT Subject: Re: broken wrappings I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? Dear Stefan You are not alone. This is a fairly common problem and I have experiencedit a few times, on light rods. It didn't happen to my heaviersalmon/steelhead sticks and it went away completely (I'm knocking woodnow,can you hear?) when I started making my own ferrules. My ferrules are bronze or monel (because of availability, mostly) and are afew thousandths thicker than most of the "store-bought" varieties, but Itake pains to taper them down to a fairly fine "tailing" and I do this onthe lathe, with a file. I don't know if this helps you but most of the really good makers areeitherout fishing or eating brisket of beef with Chris Bogart this weekend. Tschuss ServussDavy from neuneman@fh-ge.de Mon May 18 01:45:35 1998 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12873; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:22:31 +0200Subject: Re: Farlow rod finish? "Rodbuilders List" Don: The rod doen'tseem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods - isthis their method? Yes. As far as I know Farlow used resin to impregnate their rods. from neuneman@fh-ge.de Mon May 18 01:45:40 1998 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12828; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:19:57 +0200Subject: Re: broken wrappings "Rodbuilders List" Stefan: I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? I had that problem, too. The cracking has several reasons. Too much "clearance" inside the ferrule. I make my ferrules to bamboo fit real tight, but with a "rough" surface on the bamboo to allow the epoxy to have a good grip. Furthermore you have to wrap the serrated part real tight after glueing. Keep serrations in the center of the flats. I stay away from serrated ferrules altogether and have no problems anymore. Hope this helps. from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 18 02:24:37 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A2815CB01D4; Mon, 18 May 1998 01:25:53 MDT Subject: Re: Taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece rod At 05:45 PM 5/17/98 -0600, you wrote:All, I'm restoring several damaged 8' Heddon 1-3/4F rods, so some sectionswill have incomplete information. I haven't averaged the data - it's presented raw. I hope this can besaved to the archives too. OBTW, the Heddon 1-3/4F rod was a HDH rated rod. (5DT) Don Burns See attached "DOC" file for data Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\ATTACH\heddon.doc" Don;Could you please give a dumbs**t brief instuctions on how to open this.Thanks.John Channer from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon May 18 05:44:08 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA15451 for; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:49:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Farlow rod finish? At 08:09 18/05/98 +0200, you wrote:Don: The rod doen'tseem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods - isthis their method? Yes. As far as I know Farlow used resin to impregnate their rods. Well, actually Farlows didn't impregnate at all. All the 'Farlow' rods thatwere impregnated were made for them by Sharpes of Aberdeen. they usedthesame system as Orvis. Bakerlite, I think. John Cooper from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon May 18 05:44:09 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA15458 for; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:49:08 +0100 Subject: Re: broken wrappings At 08:06 18/05/98 +0200, you wrote:Stefan: I have one split cane rod with " a problem" - on both ferrule wrappings( butt & tip) the varnish is broken after ca. a half hour of fishing.IT`s not the first time, before i was going fishing i rewrapped andreplaced the ferrules, but the problem was staying. Just a fewmillimeters before the ferrule, the varnish over the wrapping is broken.Not the silk, only the varnish. What could be the problem? I had that problem, too. The cracking has several reasons. Too much "clearance" inside the ferrule. I make my ferrules to bamboo fit real tight, but with a "rough" surface on the bamboo to allow the epoxy to have a good grip. Furthermore you have to wrap the serrated part real tight after glueing. Keep serrations in the center of the flats. I stay away from serrated ferrules altogether and have no problems anymore. Hope this helps. In my experience, nothing cracks varnish quicker than an unserratedferrule.I hate-em, and regard their replacement or modification as fundamental toarod's well-being. John Cooper from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon May 18 05:44:13 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA15464 for; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:49:13 +0100 Subject: Salmon fly rod List, A friend of mine has just inherited a magnificent Sharpes of Aberdeensalmonfly rod. I would guess it was made during the early seventies, and it isNEWand UNUSED. It an impregnated 14'0" 3/2 #10. Swelled spliced joints with protectivewedges. To say that this rod is impressive is to understate its case. God onlyknowswhat it would cost to re-reproduce now: $ thousands, I'd guess. He also has a F.S.Sharpe salmon spinning rod from the same maker 9'3"2/1that has a little dirt on the handle suggesting that it may have been used He's asked me to offer these for sale. Any offers? If you would contact me off list, I'll pass on your offer. Apologies for bandwidth taken. With mailings down recently (thankgoodness)I thought there might just be room. John Cooper from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Mon May 18 05:44:18 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA15474 for; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:49:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Spey rod taper At 10:44 16/05/98 -0700, you wrote: Dear Listers This is for the guys who were interested in Spey-type tapers. Sorry ittookso long to dig it up. E. Gale and Sons, Barnstaple- 13ft. 1 1/2 in. 5 .15410 .18015 .21220 .21825 .23330 .25535 .27440 .28245 .29350 (ferrule break is at 51 1/8)55 .32560 .34565 .37370 .39575 .41280 .42585 .44890 .45495 .463100 .480105 (ferrule break)110 .482115 .490120 .508125 .538130 .543 The grip totals 25 inches long. The ferrules are heavy bronze with a 1 1/4 turn helix for locking.Someone (sorry, I can't recall who) mentioned an english rod with thesetypeferrules a few weeks back. If anybody is interested, I can make a quick sketch of them and scan it.They'd make an interesting exercise for a budding machinist! Davy PS For those of the list who are not metrically impaired, MikaelMarklund(see makers link off the Rodmakers page) has a taper for a 13' rod. Thestations are the standard 5" but the offsets are mm. These helix attachments to ferrules are a pretty stupid attachment to agoodferrule. I think Hardy's invented them, and they were copied by severalother makers. As Shweibert says, they are superfluous. Unless you're really intent on maintaining the originality of the rod, (andalthough Gales of barnstable or good, this one is not particularly precious)I'd recommend that you turn them off in a lathe, and re-polish the outsideof the ferrule welt. You then have the opportunity to turn the section asrequired, and to push fit the sections together. Many a good rod(particularly small rods) have been ruined when assembling sections,whenthe rod shaft has twisted rather than the stiff ferrule. You Americans stuck with plain friction ferrules when we Brits got into amultiplicity of unnecessary complications. You were right. John Cooper from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon May 18 07:48:07 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon,18May 1998 08:50:05 -0400 Subject: Suggestion... I would like to know if anyone has a suggestion for a 9' 3pc 8/9wt that is "as stiff as I can make it." I exchanged several striper trips for a rod and he wants a stiff rod. Take care, Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon May 18 07:48:08 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon,18May 1998 08:50:05 -0400 Subject: Ferrule Design One thing I have not been able to figure out...Why are both sections of the ferrule the same material? I don't have any formal machining background, however, my machinist keeps asking me. He has always told me to use dis- similiar materials when working with metal and friction. Jon Lintvet12B College Circle Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836- 7558 (607) 277-9781 www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Mon May 18 08:32:33 1998 0400 Subject: Re[2]: First attempt at splitting Hi...when you mention overheating of nodes during straightening, what did you do exactly that caused problems? I am straightening now for the first time and am concerned that I may be using too much heat (I have a variable temp heat gun that I use at pretty high temp (1000) and do char the bamboo a little. Am I weakening the bamboo permanently? Thanks, Andy ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting Author: at Tcpgate Mark, My first attempt to split went the same way as yours. I went back andviewedWayne's video and had much better luck on the second culm. I think thetrickis to brace the end against something - in my case it was the carpet - soyoucan bend the culm in the required direction to control the run of the split.Ialso used my leg to help form the bend. With the end of the strip in thecarpet, I was able to brace against my leg and bend the culm in the desireddirection. Switch sides as required. Take it slow and easy and don't beafraidto bend the bamboo. Although I had a number of bad splits I was able togetenough strips to build a rod. The fact that the first culm did not result in arod was a matter of over heating the nodes during straightening. Mark Cole from Canerods@aol.com Mon May 18 08:42:14 1998 Subject: Heddon taper info without attachment (long) All, Here's a repeat of my 8' Heddon 1-3/4F info - some systems can't readattachements, my CMIX can't send long posts. I love computers, I love ...... I'll post a second taper based upon the averages of the below info. Don Burns PS - Budding builders should take a look at the +/- variations and takeheart. PPS - Taper information for 8' Heddon 1-3/4F -- 3 piece rods" Rod #1 -- Model #14 (3/2) Tip #1 0 -- * not measured1 -- 0.076, 0.082, 0.0845 -- 0.098, 0.094, 0.01010 -- 0.118, 0.114, 0.11815 -- 0.128, 0.128, 0.13020 -- 0.134, 0.139, 0.13525 -- 0.147, 0.145, 0.14830 -- 0.157, 0.161, 0.161 Tip #2 0 -- * not measured1 -- 0.083, 0.084, 0.0855 -- 0.092, 0.098, 0.09810 -- 0.112, 0.112, 0.11715 -- 0.121, 0.121, 0.12420 -- 0.131, 0.130, 0.13425 -- 0.142, 0.151, 0.14930 -- * not measured 35 -- 0.174, 0.173, 0.17140 -- 0.188, 0.190, 0.19245 -- 0.203, 0.206, 0.20750 -- 0.219, 0.222, 0.22255 -- 0.236, 0.234, 0.23360 -- 0.250, 0.248, 0.245 65 -- * not measured66 -- 0.262, 0.266, 0.26970 -- 0.277, 0.281, 0.28375 -- 0.287, 0284, 0.29280 -- 0.302, 0.308, 30585 -- Swelled butt > 0.360 Rod #2 -- Model #125 (3/2) 0 -- * not measured1 -- 0.081, 0.083, 0.0855 -- 0.097, 0.097, 0.10210 -- 0.117, 0.115, 0.11415 -- 0.127, 0.129, 0.12820 -- 0.138, 0.141, 0.13625 -- * not measured30 -- * not measured 0 -- * not measured1 -- 0.081, 0.085, 0.0875 -- 0.097, 0.097, 0.09410 -- 0.107, 0.108, 0.11015 -- 0.129, 0.126, 0.12520 -- 0.136, 0.137, 0.13425 -- 0.155, 0.155, 0.15230 -- * not measured 35 -- 0.171, 0.172, 0.17340 -- 0.187, 0.187, 0.18045 -- 0.206, 0.200, 0.20650 -- 0.220, 0.220, 0.22055 -- 0.233, 0.233, 0.23660 -- 0.255, 0.248, 0.255 65 -- * not measured66 -- 0.259, 0.262, 0.266270 -- 0.271, 0.274, 0.27375 -- 0.285, 0.286, 0.28880 -- 0.297, 0.297, 0.30085 -- Swelled butt > 0.400 Rod #3 -- Heddon #10 (butt only) 66 -- * not measured70 -- 0.272, 0.272, 0.27675 -- 0.283, 0.284, 0.28880 -- 0.297, 0.297, 0.29885 -- * not measured Notes: 1) Several tips were broken at the ferrule and therefore some info blank2) Rod #3 is a butt section only3) All rods were stripped of their varnish4) Swelled butt increases to equal or greater than 0.400 under the grip. from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon May 18 08:53:14 1998 Subject: Averaged taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece rod Here's my best guess of the correct taper for the Heddon 1-3/4F -- 3piece rod taper. I threw out the 0.076" reading on the 1" point but itdidn't make much of a difference. Don Burns Taper for 8' Heddon 1-3/4F (3 piece rod) 0 -- * not measured - recontoured for tiptop mounting.1 -- 0.0835 -- 0.09710 -- 0.11415 -- 0.12620 -- 0.13525 -- 0.14930 --0.160 35 -- 0.17240 -- 0.18745 -- 0.20550 -- 0.22055 -- 0.23460 -- 0.250 65 -- * not measured66 -- 0.26370 -- 0.27675 -- 0.28880 -- 0.29985 -- Swelled butt ~0.400 from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon May 18 09:04:51 1998 Subject: Re[2]: Farlow rod finish? RO>At 08:09 18/05/98 +0200, you wrote:RO>>Don:RO>>RO>>>The rod doen'tRO>>>seem to be refinished. I also know that Farlow's made impreg. rods -isRO>>>this their method?RO>>RO>>Yes. As far as I know Farlow used resin to impregnate their rods.RO>>RO>> RO>Well, actually Farlows didn't impregnate at all. All the 'Farlow' rodsthatRO>were impregnated were made for them by Sharpes of Aberdeen. theyused theRO>same system as Orvis. Bakerlite, I think. RO>John Cooper John and all, I have discovered that my rod is indeed varnished. I also stuck myself in the finger with a cane splinter that wasn't evenglued down while removing the covering non-invisible invisible wrap. While cleaning up area, removing my blood with some alcohol, I dissolvedthe original varnish too - so I'm quite sure it's varnished in thiscase. It looks like the original finish might have been a polyurethanevarnish - nice very hard stuff, but a bit milky too. I'm glad that the rod wasn't impregnated because I wasn't sure how toglue a scarf on an impreg. rod. - one tip is short at the ferrule. Don Burns from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon May 18 09:11:14 1998 Subject: Re[2]: First attempt at splitting Andy - A small amount of charring will not hurt the cane. As long as thereisenough material to be planed away so that no charred material ends up inthefinished strip, you should be OK. from saltwein@swbell.net Mon May 18 09:17:21 1998 gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net JAA04644 Subject: Re: First attempt at splitting andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Hi...when you mention overheating of nodes during straightening, whatdid you do exactly that caused problems? I am straightening now forthe first time and am concerned that I may be using too much heat (Ihave a variable temp heat gun that I use at pretty high temp (1000)and do char the bamboo a little. Am I weakening the bamboopermanently? Thanks, Andy Andy, Charring is a natural by product of heating the node. As long as youhave life in the strip when you are finished. If you over heat thestrip it will become stiff and lifeless. Take a piece of cane that didnot split well for you and practice levels of heating. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from ragnarig@integrityol.com Mon May 18 09:31:11 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A7E64B8010E; Mon, 18 May 1998 07:38:30 PDT Subject: Re: Ferrule Design One thing I have not been able to figure out...Why are both sectionsof the ferrule the same material? I don't have any formal machiningbackground, however, my machinist keeps asking me. He has always toldme to use dis- similiar materials when working with metal andfriction. from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Mon May 18 09:43:53 1998 Subject: RE: I Was Totally Surprised. The A.J. Campbell book covers this. He even suggests collecting them aspart of a complete Leonard collection. It's a fascinating book thateveryone on this list would enjoy. -----Original Message-----From: George W. Barnes [SMTP:gwbarnes@gwi.net]Sent: Sunday, May 17, 1998 2:23 PM Subject: I Was Totally Surprised. I suppose it would be practically impossible to find a rod makerwho didnot know who Leonard was and at least part of his history. Buthow manyknow that he also made fire arms? Several nights ago, there wasadisplay of muzzle loading hand guns at our Civil War Roundtable.In themidst of the display, but prominent because it was one of thebetterappearing pieces, was a long barreled hand gun, made by Leonardwhen heoperated from Bangor, Maine. from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon May 18 09:56:21 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation RO>A deflection board isn't hard to make, although I'm about ready to use"lessRO>learned" on number two. For weight, you can use simple lead sinkers,sold iRO>to 8 oz. size. I was surprised at how close they are to the statedweight.RO>(If you're real fussy, add a little weight or shave some off.) RO>The thing is, it's a way to find out what you got after you've got it. RO>It would be interesting to know the deflection of some of the standardtaperRO>that are out there. RO>Terry Kirkpatrick Terry, Did you experiment and rotate the rod to look at deflection of all sixstrips in different positions (tensile vs compression) - are thedifferences measureable? Don Burns from flyfisher@cmix.com Mon May 18 12:38:43 1998 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0700 Subject: Re: Ferrule Design RO>>One thing I have not been able to figure out...Why are both sectionsRO>of the ferrule the same material? I don't have any formal machiningRO>background, however, my machinist keeps asking me. He has alwaystoldRO>me to use dis-similiar materials when working with metal andRO>friction.DearJon RO>What he is probably thinking of is the practice of using dissimilarmetalsRO>as a bearing suface. RO>Although having a slick fit is nice when you are slipping ferrulestogetherRO>and apart, it is generally preferable to retain a little friction whilstRO>casting and fighting fish. RO>Davy Davy, Loved your reply! Don B. from rmoon@ida.net Mon May 18 13:05:15 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation boundary="------------ECA4627CF03B6D52B102016E" --------------ECA4627CF03B6D52B102016E Terry While I think that deflection tests can give a gross estimate of rodaction, I think that it is important to note that as the load increasesso does the resistence to bending. That is to say that the action is asmuch a function of dynamics as it is of statics. Also the amplitude ofthe rod in action is a function of the natural harmonics of the rod. Atthe natural harmonic the tip deflection is the greatest. An increase ordecrease of that harmonic will shorten the flexure of the rod. I don'tmean to be thought of as being critical, since I am still trying to workthis whole affair out in my own mind. I have been reading GraigSpolek's essay Where the Action Is in The American Flyfisher. It seemsto me that of fly rod action is still a complex function of the rod andthe caster. I have seen extreme tapers that can be very effective whenused by some casters and horrible failures when used by others. If youhave any ideas on what I am trying to say and how I am saying it, Iwould welcome your comments. Ralph --------------ECA4627CF03B6D52B102016E Terry While I think that deflection tests can give a gross estimate of rodaction, I think that it is important to note that as the load increases amplitudeof the rod in action is a function of the natural harmonics of the increase I don't mean to be thought of as being critical, since I am still trying Graig Spolek's essay Where the Action Is in The American It seems to me that of fly rod action is still a complex function of the very effective when used by some casters and horrible failures when used I am saying it, I would welcome your comments. Ralph --------------ECA4627CF03B6D52B102016E-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon May 18 14:19:54 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation In a message dated 5/18/98 6:12:56 PM, you wrote: Ralph - That is a key point. I have noticed, and I think others have too, thatas load on a rod increases it begins to feel stiffer, and that you canincrease wrist power without generating shock waves. I have also noted that sometimes a spiral rod looks much the same as asimilarstraight rod in static deflection, but is a noticeably better distancecaster.I think that has to do with recovery rate, The speed at which the rod snapsback when loaded. A somewhat analagous situation exists in archery. Youcanhave two bows of equal draw weight, but one might seriously outperformtheother because of recovery speed. from sats@gte.net Mon May 18 18:25:14 1998 Subject: Re: Simple Building SAA31331 The problem with the list is that it pivots around the Garrison methodandhas to be promoted at all cost because that is the only method the topgunsknow. It is a pity really because the Garrison way requires so muchequipment that it forces a builder to try to sell rods, and because theGarrison system is not really a professional rodbuilding technique theydigholes for themselves. I've got a question. I'm becoming more and more convinced that a taper isbasedmore on the change in slope then the actual dimensions. Does this soundreasonable? Southern Terry Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Mon May 18 20:00:22 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation UAA02434 Did you experiment and rotate the rod to look at deflection of all sixstrips in different positions (tensile vs compression) - are thedifferences measureable? No I didn't. I can only get within about .025 in. with the current setup I'musing. To increase the deflection, I increase the wt. Mostly I use the sidethat will (hopefully) end up as the guide side. It would be interesting, but I don't think I'm geared up for it. Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from sats@gte.net Mon May 18 20:00:36 1998 Subject: Re: Wrapping Guides UAA02864 I use thee supports (two held together by an arm and the thirdindependent.)Set them in a B&D Workbench and crank the handles down. I have a bobbin that I've weighted with 1/4 nuts, taped in place. I dropthatthorough an piece of coat hanger that's attached to a 2x4x12. I move the2x4under where I want to work and drop the bobbin over the edger of thetable. IfI screw up, I can just unwind my work. Gravity gives me the tensions. to push the threads together, I use one half of a cloths pin. It works. Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from thramer@presys.com Mon May 18 20:02:41 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Simple Building Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: The problem with the list is that it pivots around the Garrison methodandhas to be promoted at all cost because that is the only method the topgunsknow. It is a pity really because the Garrison way requires so muchequipment that it forces a builder to try to sell rods, and because theGarrison system is not really a professional rodbuilding technique theydigholes for themselves. I've got a question. I'm becoming more and more convinced that a taperisbasedmore on the change in slope then the actual dimensions. Does this soundreasonable? Southern TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netYou found the secret to taper design. The shape and form of the graphdefines the character of the rod. The actual multipliers change only theline weight. A good taper is very forgiving of dimensional errors.A.J.Thramer from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Mon May 18 20:14:40 1998 ; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:14:30 +1200 Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? Davy , My two ten foot rods are both at our holiday residence at the moment but Ihave a Hardy "special " rod built by Hardy for a local fishing shop owner inthe mid 1950's for him to fish for larger trout at Taupo .( our usual 5 to15 lb trout:)) ) It is a 9'6" rod and throws a weight 8-9 line well . Ifind it a little "heavy" to cast but that may be my casting or thereel/weight distribution I was using . Dimensions from the tip including varnish which is about average .1" .0985" .11010" .12615" .15020" .16125" .17330" .18135" .193ferrule 36 - 39 "40" .22045 .24050" .25655" .26760 .28765" .29570" .307ferrule 73" -77"78" .31580" .31985" .33590" .35895" .370100" .378102" handle 12" handle I trust this is of some use. I will post the longer rods in a couple ofweeks time when I will have them back home . regards Ian Kearney At 07:22 PM 17/05/98 -0700, you wrote:Dear Ian Thanks very much indeed for that taper- and thank you, Chris, forrequestingit! I, for one, would be most interested in seeing the stats for aten-footer. I'm keen on these rods whether for trout or salmon.Sentimental attachment too corny to divulge. If you don't have time to convert to English, just shoot me the metricdata.I can hash it out on my little HP in a few seconds. I would be cosmicallygrateful :-) Davy Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 18 20:16:41 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id ADB880701D4; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:17:44 MDT Subject: REC Hi!Does anybody know how to get REC online these days?My e-mail came backandI can't bring up their website.ThanksJohn Channer from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon May 18 20:17:01 1998 Subject: Re: Suggestion... Jon Lintvet wrote: I would like to know if anyone has a suggestion for a 9' 3pc 8/9wtthat is "as stiff as I can make it." I exchanged several stripertrips for a rod and he wants a stiff rod. Take care,Jon,I have found that "slower" action rods require less false casting withheavy lines. The "stiffer" the rod, the more false casting required, itwould seem. Of course, he has to worry about fighting the fish, too, butthat is not incompatible with a slow action.What have you found is comfortable for you in the heavier weights?Best regards,Reed from flyfisher@nextdim.com Mon May 18 20:19:22 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A55311BB012E; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:41:55 PDT Subject: Re: Simple Building Terry in a way you are right. some rod tapers have a straight taper, that isa constant drop in size from one station to the next. I have a rod that Iassemble from a kit that I got from Cabela's years ago that has a straighttaper, which casts fairly well but nothing like a rod that is built with acompound taper.Sincerely,Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Simple Building The problem with the list is that it pivots around the Garrison methodandhas to be promoted at all cost because that is the only method the topgunsknow. It is a pity really because the Garrison way requires so muchequipment that it forces a builder to try to sell rods, and because theGarrison system is not really a professional rodbuilding technique theydigholes for themselves. I've got a question. I'm becoming more and more convinced that a taper isbasedmore on the change in slope then the actual dimensions. Does this soundreasonable? Southern TerrySafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from jaw12@health.state.ny.us Mon May 18 20:32:16 1998 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu);Mon, 18 May 1998 21:31:34 -0400 Mon, 18 May 1998 21:31:34 -0400 Mon, 18 May 1998 21:31:34 -0400 Subject: Re: REC rec@flyfishers.com www.reccomponents.com Hope this helps... I hit the website yesterday and it was working then... channer@hubwest.com on 05/18/98 03:14:18 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: REC Hi!Does anybody know how to get REC online these days?My e-mail came backandI can't bring up their website.ThanksJohn Channer from sats@gte.net Mon May 18 20:42:40 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation UAA00975 While I think that deflection tests can give a gross estimate of rodaction, I think that it is important to note that as the load increasesso does the resistence to bending. That is to say that the action is asmuch a function of dynamics as it is of statics. An interesting point and a valid one. Also the amplitude ofthe rod in action is a function of the natural harmonics of the rod. Atthe natural harmonic the tip deflection is the greatest. An increase ordecrease of that harmonic will shorten the flexure of the rod. I've seen harmonics referred to here, several times. I'm not sure Iunderstandhow it's being applied. ... I don'tmean to be thought of as being critical, since I am still trying to workthis whole affair out in my own mind. Aren't we all!!!! ... I have been reading GraigSpolek's essay Where the Action Is in The American Flyfisher. Which issue? ... It seemsto me that of fly rod action is still a complex function of the rod andthe caster. I have seen extreme tapers that can be very effective whenused by some casters and horrible failures when used by others. If youhave any ideas on what I am trying to say and how I am saying it, Iwould welcome your comments. I know that I change my casting style, depending on the action and lengthof arod. And what makes a good action to one may make a terrible action toanother. It seems that a rods action is based on how far the tip moves from thecenterline AND how quickly it returns to that centerline. The first can bemeasured toolsI have available. I'd suggest that the second quality is the one that makes Tonkin bamboo solovable to rod builders. In one way, a rod is an upside down pendulum, and adheres to the laws of apendulum. Though probably in reverse. Probably more like a metronome. Aslength increases there's a natural tendency for the rod to "slow down". Now, My turn. Does any of this make any sense? Terry K.Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from drinkr@voicenet.com Mon May 18 20:56:19 1998 0000 Subject: RE: Ferrule Design DavyI am pondering making ferrules myself. Can you direct me to a source formaterial and information on ferrules and construction. Thanks Dave -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ferrule Design One thing I have not been able to figure out...Why are both sectionsof the ferrule the same material? I don't have any formal machiningbackground, however, my machinist keeps asking me. He has always toldme to use dis- similiar materials when working with metal andfriction. from RVenneri@aol.com Mon May 18 21:18:01 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrule Design Contact Dave La clair . He very good info on ferrules and also sells thetubbing. Look on the rodmakers page under supplies to get his #. His email isLaclair123@aol.comBob V Venneri's Custom Components21 Chuck Hill RoadSaugerties N Y 12477914 246 5882 from FLYROD777@aol.com Mon May 18 22:08:46 1998 Subject: Re: Homemade Cork lathe? Thanks John, Love to tinker. Mark from ragnarig@integrityol.com Mon May 18 23:00:07 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A5938EC0106; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:07:47 PDT Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? My two ten foot rods are both at our holiday residence at the moment butIhave a Hardy "special " rod built by Hardy for a local fishing shop ownerinthe mid 1950's for him to fish for larger trout at Taupo .( our usual 5 to15 lb trout You know, Ian, I hear they've got vitamins that'll help those little guys tofill out a bit ;-) Again, thanks for the taper. I know I'm not the only guy on the list wholikes these big fellas. And yes, send those others along when you are able. They will be verywelcome. And make them trouts do some pushups! All the best,Davy from ragnarig@integrityol.com Mon May 18 23:14:17 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A8E4B5B0062; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:21:56 PDT Subject: Re: Ferrule Design I am pondering making ferrules myself. Can you direct me to a source formaterial and information on ferrules and construction. Thanks Dave ----- Dear David I see Bob Venneri told you to call Dave LeClair. He's the guy fornickel-silver. I use scrap metal I find in the rusty old bins at BoeingSurplus Sales near my home. page) He's got everything there you need. And if you have any problemsyou can call me, and I'm sure Tony wouldn't mind fielding an occasionalquestion. Just fer Gosh sakes, don't try to make carbon copies of other makers'hardware (except while you're first learning, or you're making a cleverforgery) Be original and make something that'll scare hell out of thefascists! Davy from flyfisher@nextdim.com Mon May 18 23:24:36 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A824D550146; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:18:44 PDT Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? It's the story of my life, always too late smart, too soon old. Wished Iwould have known of Ian when I was in the Taupo area seven years ago,maybehe could have shown me how to fish the prison farm water. I did manage tocatch a few but it was a completely different ballgame than I expected. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? My two ten foot rods are both at our holiday residence at the moment butIhave a Hardy "special " rod built by Hardy for a local fishing shop ownerinthe mid 1950's for him to fish for larger trout at Taupo .( our usual 5 to15 lb trout You know, Ian, I hear they've got vitamins that'll help those little guystofill out a bit ;-) Again, thanks for the taper. I know I'm not the only guy on the list wholikes these big fellas. And yes, send those others along when you are able. They will be verywelcome. And make them trouts do some pushups! All the best,Davy from neuneman@fh-ge.de Tue May 19 00:52:45 1998 (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA23522; Tue, 19 May 1998 08:06:17 +0200Subject: Re: broken wrappings "Rodbuilders List" In my experience, nothing cracks varnish quicker than an unserratedferrule.I hate-em, and regard their replacement or modification as fundamentalto arod's well-being. Amazing. I build my rods with unserrated ferrules for years and have no cracks or other trouble at all. So what am I doing wrong? Frank Neunemann ----------------------------------------------------------- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- --------------------------------------- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 02:34:06 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 15:33:51 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? On Mon, 18 May 1998, Dell wrote: It's the story of my life, always too late smart, too soon old. Wished Iwould have known of Ian when I was in the Taupo area seven years ago,maybehe could have shown me how to fish the prison farm water. I did managetocatch a few but it was a completely different ballgame than I expected. Arhhh, Taupo. But the Mohaka is better. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 02:39:57 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 15:39:45 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Ferrule Design On Mon, 18 May 1998, David Riggs wrote: I am pondering making ferrules myself. Can you direct me to a sourceformaterial and information on ferrules and construction. Thanks Dave Dear David page) He's got everything there you need. And if you have any problemsyou can call me, and I'm sure Tony wouldn't mind fielding an occasionalquestion. Just fer Gosh sakes, don't try to make carbon copies of other makers'hardware (except while you're first learning, or you're making a cleverforgery) Be original and make something that'll scare hell out of thefascists! Davy That's what I recon. Actually it's virtualy impossible to make carbon copies of other makers hardware unless you're trained to do that because you develop a method that suits you and the end result wind up beingunique. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 02:52:31 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 15:52:23 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Anybody seen John Cooper? John Cooper of the UK, I was contacted this morning by someone I thinkyou would be the best to help with if you're interested. Sorry to contact you this way. Could you please privately contact me? Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tbeckfam@pacbell.net Tue May 19 03:07:21 1998 mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id BAA19260 for Subject: Re: Ferrule Design Tony Young wrote: On Mon, 18 May 1998, David Riggs wrote: I am pondering making ferrules myself. Can you direct me to a sourceformaterial and information on ferrules and construction. Thanks Dave Dear David page) He's got everything there you need. And if you have anyproblemsyou can call me, and I'm sure Tony wouldn't mind fielding an occasionalquestion. Just fer Gosh sakes, don't try to make carbon copies of other makers'hardware (except while you're first learning, or you're making a cleverforgery) Be original and make something that'll scare hell out of thefascists! Davy That's what I recon. Actually it's virtualy impossible to make carboncopies of other makers hardware unless you're trained to do that becauseyou develop a method that suits you and the end result wind up beingunique. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/Tony I noticed, in the article on your web site, that you use a Sherlinelathe. I just bought a used one. I am having a hard time aligning thehead stock. How accurate does it need to be to make good ferrules? arethere any accessories that I need? I appreciate any suggestions. I'venever done any machine work and I can use all the help I can get.ThanksTraver Becker from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 19 03:28:44 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A2FC7B3028C; Tue, 19 May 1998 02:29:48 MDT Subject: Re: REC At 09:27 PM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:rec@flyfishers.com www.reccomponents.com Hope this helps... I hit the website yesterday and it was working then... channer@hubwest.com on 05/18/98 03:14:18 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu cc: (bcc: John A. Whitaker/BHPRSD/DHHCCS/AIDS/OPH/DOH)Subject: REC John; i tried both of these tonite and didn't get anywhere. Their website won'tcome up at all for me thru rodmakers or entering their address inNetscape.The e- mail I sent came back yesterday address unknown and I checked ittomake sure I didn't enter the wrong address by mistake. Any new addressforthem will be much appreciated, I hate to make a long distance phone callwhen this is already paid for. Thanks John Channer from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Tue May 19 03:37:41 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA26001 for; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:42:55 +0100 Subject: Re: broken wrappings At 07:52 19/05/98 +0200, you wrote:In my experience, nothing cracks varnish quicker than an unserratedferrule.I hate-em, and regard their replacement or modification as fundamentalto arod's well-being. Amazing. I build my rods with unserrated ferrules for years and have no cracks or other trouble at all. So what am I doing wrong? Frank Neunemann ----------------------------------------------------------- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/-------------------- --------------------------------------- Even more amazing. The worst crackers of all here were the late Allcocksrods which had unserrated ferrules. They all cracked their varnish at thetransition. I've had dozens of these through my workshop: serrated - almostalways no cracks, unserrated - always cracked. QED. If unserrated worked as well as serrated, we'd all be using them, wouldn'twe? Surely also, unserrated places a sudden load between stiff ferruleandflexible bamboo. Can't do much for the action of your rods. Anyone else using unserrated? When in doubt, ask Garrison. John Cooper from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 04:55:11 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 17:54:55 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Ferrule Design On Tue, 19 May 1998, Traver Becker wrote:Tony I noticed, in the article on your web site, that you use a Sherlinelathe. I just bought a used one. I am having a hard time aligning thehead stock. How accurate does it need to be to make good ferrules? arethere any accessories that I need? I appreciate any suggestions. I'venever done any machine work and I can use all the help I can get.ThanksTraver Becker I'm not a trained machinest, just a self taught hacker but the model of lathe I have (metric 4000) has a head key that aligns the headstock with the bed. I looked through Sherline's propaganda to see what runout you can expect when the chuck is properly tightened but couldn't find it but it's very small and well within limits for turning ferrules from rod stock.All I need to make ferrules and I'm open to sugestion here is the cutter that came with the lathe, a center drill, drill bits of the correct size and a reamer, and of course a mic. Don't even attempt making ferrules without a center drill or you'll butcher the job as soon as you use the drill bit as a drill bit wont start a hole in a straight line like a center drill will.You can dispence with the reamer if you wish but the ferrules feel nicer to use if reamed. If you use a reamer, don't reverse it while the part is in motion. As far as hints in opperation go, have a look at Sherline's page as well and set it up and start turning. I think these lathes are a hell of a lot easier and safer to learn with than wood lathes as the cutters are held firmly at the correct angle and if you're patient you pick it up pretty quickly as far as simple jobs like ferules go.Much as I like these little lathes, I used to use one owned by a gunsmith as big as a car that sat rock solid and turned threads in chrome moly gun barrels like licorice. I'd get one of these if I could next time round so you can make reels and reel seats as well. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 04:57:20 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:00 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: REC On Tue, 19 May 1998, john channer wrote:i tried both of these tonite and didn't get anywhere. Their website won'tcome up at all for me thru rodmakers or entering their address inNetscape.The e-mail I sent came back yesterday address unknown and I checked ittomake sure I didn't enter the wrong address by mistake. Any new addressforthem will be much appreciated, I hate to make a long distance phone callwhen this is already paid for. Thanks John Channer John,you've got to make friends with a high school kid. Offer to teach him rod building as a trade for sorting out your computer hasles :-) Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 19 07:45:43 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AF33920288; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:46:43 MDT Subject: Re: REC At 05:56 PM 5/19/98 +0800, you wrote:John,you've got to make friends with a high school kid. Offer to teach him rod building as a trade for sorting out your computer hasles :-) Tony /***********************************************************************/ Tony;I have a high school kid, but I can't seem to make freiands with her. Thatis another story. I have contacted REC by e-mail and looked at theirwebsite many times, but all of a sudden they are not there.Will bite thebullet and call them today.John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Tue May 19 07:52:38 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A0D3A00288; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:53:39 MDT Subject: REC All;I knew it wasn't me, it seems that flyfishers.com has suspendedoperations for now. John Channer from eestlow@srminc.com Tue May 19 08:03:26 1998 1997)) id86256609.0047112A ; Tue, 19 May 1998 07:56:14 -0500X-Lotus- FromDomain: SRM@INTERNOTES Subject: Test, Do Not Read testing 1,2,3,4 from rmoon@ida.net Tue May 19 09:29:42 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus of Elasticity Calculation Terry Thanks for your input. I think you are right. I can only say that somecharacteristics can be measured and projections of the rod actionderived therefrom, others are less easily measured yet still have animpact on the action. For example as Tom Smithwick points out the powerinput of the caster has a marked effect.The Spolek essay is in the Winter 1988 Vol 14 #1 issue of the AmericanFly Fisher and in the Summer 1987 Vol 13 #4 issue ( Of course part iis in the latter reference and part 2 in the former. Trust me to screwit up) I think it would be wonderful if he could be persuaded to postthe essay onhis web page or perhaps to write a summary FAQ. His studiesare very good, Ralph from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue May 19 10:10:47 1998 Subject: Re: REC I think the web master for this site is messing around with some newsoftware. Don B. from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Tue May 19 10:17:02 1998 Subject: It doesn't get better than this Guys, Delivered a rod to a fellow yesterday afternoon who is both a friend and afine fisherman. When he strung the rod to try cast on the creek, he was actually shakingwith excitement. Attached a BWO and right off the bridge landed a decent brown. Got some pictures. It doesn't get better. Don from ayrborne@hotmail.com Tue May 19 12:03:43 1998 Tue, 19 May 1998 10:03:02 PDT Subject: Ferrules another way?? I may have no idea of what I'm doing here but it would seem that one good source of tubing would be appropriately sized and trimmed rifle cases. A die set for case forming is available which would enable creating almost any OD/ID combination from existing cases. The die set was created for people who design their own cartridges. One could step ferrules if required by making a "neck section". Most commercial brass cases have a wall thickness of .015 in the neck area, getting quite a but thicker towards the head of the case. Final tolerances could be achieved by turning the OD down to size. Accuracy of +- .0001 can be achieved using hand turning tools. The finished product could be nickel or chrome plated Total cost would be in the neighborhood of $250.- total, assuming the plating was outsourced, another $100 0r so to acquire a plating set-up for home use. Sorry about so much band width. If this seems viable I could post a list of equipment and suppliers.I am really learning a lot from this list and hope to take the plunge and start my first cane rod project as soon as we move into our new digs where I will have a better work area. Jon Savage "If at first you don't succeed, call an airstrike" ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from jczimny@dol.net Tue May 19 13:26:03 1998 Subject: Re: It doesn't get better than this Was it the P 15.John Don Andersen wrote: Guys, Delivered a rod to a fellow yesterday afternoon who is both a friend andafine fisherman. When he strung the rod to try cast on the creek, he was actually shakingwith excitement. Attached a BWO and right off the bridge landed a decent brown. Got some pictures. It doesn't get better. Don from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Tue May 19 15:16:07 1998 ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:15:52 +1200 Subject: Re: Anybody got a Hardy? Davy and Tony Yes , unfortunately they do not grow to that size by being easy to catch .The Mohaka is unfortuately getting tied up in access problems these daysTony . I much prefer the smaller and usually clearer streams of the SouthIsland , even if the local average is in the order of 3-5 lbs . ( there weretwo browns of over 20 lbs caught locally last year , but not by me ) Anyone who is heading down this way please feel free to get in touch . regards Iank At 03:33 PM 19/05/98 +0800, you wrote:On Mon, 18 May 1998, Dell wrote: It's the story of my life, always too late smart, too soon old. Wished Iwould have known of Ian when I was in the Taupo area seven years ago,maybehe could have shown me how to fish the prison farm water. I did managetocatch a few but it was a completely different ballgame than I expected. Arhhh, Taupo. But the Mohaka is better. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email iank@nelson.planet.org.nz from gc.williams@MCIONE.com Tue May 19 18:43:03 1998 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 19 May 1998 23:42:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Test This is only a test. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 19 19:02:03 1998 Wed, 20 May 1998 08:01:54 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Ferrules another way?? On Tue, 19 May 1998, Jonathan Savage wrote: I may have no idea of what I'm doing here but it would seem that one good source of tubing would be appropriately sized and trimmed rifle cases. A die set for case forming is available which would enable creating almost any OD/ID combination from existing cases. The die set was created for people who design their own cartridges. One could step ferrules if required by making a "neck section". Most commercial brass cases have a wall thickness of .015 in the neck area, getting quite a but thicker towards the head of the case. Final tolerances could be achieved by turning the OD down to size. Accuracy of +- .0001 can be achieved using hand turning tools. The finished product could be nickel or chrome plated Total cost would be in the neighborhood of $250.- total, assuming the plating was outsourced, another $100 0r so to acquire a plating set-up for home use. Sorry about so much band width. If this seems viable I could post a list of equipment and suppliers.I am really learning a lot from this list and hope to take the plunge and start my first cane rod project as soon as we move into our new digs where I will have a better work area. Jon Savage When I first got into his game I thought about the same thing. I think RCBS used to make custom full length sizing dies for about 50% above the cost of std ones to encourage wildcaters. My thought was use .222 cartridges and cut off the rims after the sizing operation.I'm not sure how you'd achieve this using NS tube though so I didn't take it beyond thinking about it. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue May 19 19:14:34 1998 Subject: RVenneri/quality of service and product? List memebers,Awhile back I had ordered a reelseat from Robert Venneri, a reelseat withafighting butt extension. I was promised this reelseat within a certaintimespan and I want the list to know that not only did I receive it in a timelymanner but the quality was more than I could have ever expected. I openedthepackage today and I was in awe of what I saw, the finish of the metalpartsand the finish on the wood was better than any reelseat I had ever gotten.Until I get set up to make my own reelseats ( including the hardware) Iwillmost definately be buying my seats from Bob. If you don't make your own Iwould suggest checking out Robert Venneri and his reelseats. ( This is anunpaid advertisement).Bret from sats@gte.net Tue May 19 20:32:19 1998 Subject: Re: Averaged taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece rod UAA11598 Here's my best guess of the correct taper for the Heddon 1-3/4F -- 3piece rod taper. I threw out the 0.076" reading on the 1" point but itdidn't make much of a difference. Sounds like you sat down and did the deed. Some of the least interestingmomentsin my bamboo experimentation is recording taper information into aspread sheet. I usually build three formula that I can copy down the sheet. a1+b1+c1/3000 This allows me to plug in the numbers without decimalplaces. d2-d1 This allows me the ability to see the "slope" d2-d1/5 (or whatever the increment) This gives me the one inch slope. Very discouraging to find out that the old masters could be further offthen weare, isn't it?] --Terry K. Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue May 19 20:58:57 1998 Subject: Re: Averaged taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece RO>>Here's my best guess of the correct taper for the Heddon 1-3/4F -- 3RO>>piece rod taper. I threw out the 0.076" reading on the 1" point but itRO>>didn't make much of a difference. RO>Sounds like you sat down and did the deed. Some of the leastinteresting momRO>in my bamboo experimentation is recording taper information into aspread sh RO>I usually build three formula that I can copy down the sheet. RO>a1+b1+c1/3000 This allows me to plug in the numbers without decimalplaces. RO>d2-d1 This allows me the ability to see the "slope" RO>d2-d1/5 (or whatever the increment) This gives me the one inchslope. RO> Very discouraging to find out that the old masters could be further offtheRO>are, isn't it?] RO>--RO>Terry K. Terry, I wanted to see how close each rod was to the other ones. I've got toreconstruct the broken tips. But I'm not sure if I'm going to have toworry about +/- 0.001 tolerances. They are all plastic reelseat spacer rods, so taper variations with timecan be ruled out, IMHO. It would be interesting to have a new rod made from this taper tocompare with an original. See how good the cane tempering was done on aproduction rod. (or held up). Don Burns from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue May 19 21:21:54 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Averaged taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece Don,Bernard Hills had some rod blanks made for him on the original tapers. Ihavethree such rods all three of them casty very well. One is the match of aModel 10 that was my fathers and they cast differently than my originalHeddons. I think that for a production shop that Heddon did very well withtempering and these rods ( the originals) have held up great thru the years.I believe they were pre-WWII or right after. bret from flyfisher@cmix.com Tue May 19 21:48:14 1998 Subject: Re: Averaged taper -- 8' Heddon - 1-3/4F, 3 piece RO>Don,RO>Bernard Hills had some rod blanks made for him on the original tapers. I haRO>three such rods all three of them casty very well. One is the match ofaRO>Model 10 that was my fathers and they cast differently than myoriginalRO>Heddons. I think that for a production shop that Heddon did very wellwithRO>tempering and these rods ( the originals) have held up great thru theyears.RO>I believe they were pre-WWII or right after.RO>bret Bret, Are they better at casting or just different? Don from gc.williams@MCIONE.com Wed May 20 02:14:20 1998 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:07:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: List Check Wondered if you would check to make sure I'm still getting e-mails fromthelist. Didn't get an e-mail from one person on the list on 5/19 which ishighly unusual. Thanks Gary from emiller257@dataflo.net Wed May 20 06:31:53 1998 wddataflo.dataflo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA00593 for Subject: Re: RVenneri/quality of service and product? Grhghlndr wrote: List memebers,Awhile back I had ordered a reelseat from Robert Venneri, a reelseatwith afighting butt extension. I was promised this reelseat within a certaintimespan and I want the list to know that not only did I receive it in a timelymanner but the quality was more than I could have ever expected. Iopened thepackage today and I was in awe of what I saw, the finish of the metalpartsand the finish on the wood was better than any reelseat I had evergotten.Until I get set up to make my own reelseats ( including the hardware) Iwillmost definately be buying my seats from Bob. If you don't make your ownIwould suggest checking out Robert Venneri and his reelseats. ( This isanunpaid advertisement).BretBret, does he have a catalog and how do you get ahold of him?Address? Website? Ed M. from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed May 20 06:53:00 1998 Subject: Re: List Check In a message dated 98-05-20 03:20:54 EDT, you write: Hello Gary: This one came in ok. There were several 5/19 list responses. Incase you are new to the list and unaware, what happened to you hashappened tomost of us at one time or another. The fix is to simply unsubscribe andresubscribe. Has worked for me on a number of occasions. You will thenhaveto wait until this months archives are available to see what you missed.However, do not think anything of rod-building interest transpiredyesterday. Are you the same Gary Williams formerly of Ooltewah, TN? Regards,RTyree from projeto@ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br Wed May 20 09:36:14 1998 4.1/UCB5.64/4.03) Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules Don,Do you know E. Hille 's NPB ferrules? They advertise as step- downferrules,that is the maleis 1/64th smaller than the female and no tapered ends. I don't know whatthismean and ifit is suitable to our bamboo rods. I'm thinking in using NPB ferrules aslongas I'm building Sergio flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: A second good ferrule question is - who makes the nickel plated brassferrules that Angler's, Clemens and Netcraft sells today? I'd like tocontact them. I ask, because the design is from the fiberglass/graphite rod era andisn't a very good one for repairing older cane production-house rods -ones that came with Leonard-style or Montague "bottle"-style (femalestep-down) ferrules. I'd be interested in seeing the reintroduction a line of NPBLeonard-style ferrules to the market for repairing old production rods.I'd even be willing to act as the dis't. for them if the cost wasn'tbeyond belief. Don Burns from stpete@netten.net Wed May 20 10:12:12 1998 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA19746 for Subject: Looking for JJ Brown in Memphis Sorry for the bandwidth, but I have no other way of getting in touchwith a local rodmaker. I wasn't aware that there was anyone else intown here making their own rods. JJ Brown, if you're reading this please contact me at stpete@netten.netor at 682-8626. I'd like to meet you and talk rods. Rick Crenshaw, Memphis from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Wed May 20 10:13:21 1998 Subject: List Problems (was Re: List Check) Hello Gary, sorry to hear about your mail problems. If the listproc software encounters delivery problems it willautomatically un- sub a user, or stop mail delivery. If youhave not been receiving RODMAKERS mail, this is most likelywhat has happened. The best cure is to first un-sub yourself from the list, and thenre-subscribe. The un-sub/re-sub usually clears up any problemsthat might exist. listproc@mail.wustl.edu In the body of the message:unsubscribe RODMAKERSsubscribe RODMAKERS yourfirstname yourlastname Let me know if you have any problems... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed May 20 12:28:06 1998 Subject: Re: Re: RVenneri/quality of service and product?Ed Miller Ed, Bob is a list member but you can e-mail him at RVennri@aol.com and hewillget you a brochure. Or most likely he will see thiese posts and respondaccordingly.Bret from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed May 20 14:12:58 1998 Subject: Re[2]: Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Don,RO>Do you know E. Hille 's NPB ferrules? They advertise as step- downferrules,RO>that is the maleRO>is 1/64th smaller than the female and no tapered ends. I don't knowwhat thiRO>mean and ifRO>it is suitable to our bamboo rods. I'm thinking in using NPB ferrules aslonRO>as I'm buildingRO>for myself. Any advice?RO>Sergio Sergio, I think that this 1/64 difference is standard with all NPB ferrules thatare on the market today. With these guys, the male is a straight tube(with a closed end) and looks something like it could serve as a longeraser cap on a Pentel mechanical pencil. The female necks out to allowthe male to fit inside it. So it's somewhat the stamped metal equivilentto a Super Z ferrule. I believe these were designed for adding a joint to a long single- piecefiberglass/graphite blank. You would make the blank in one piece andthen cut it into 2 or 3 pieces and add these ferrules. But tip over buttferrule construction took over the plastic blank market and we are leftwith the remains of the plastic market design for use with cane. Whichisn't too bad for a new cane blank - sucks for replacing a missingLeonard -style ferrule. Angler's Workshop doubled there selling price in the '98 catalog fortheir NCP ferrules - maybe the supply is finally running out? I don'tknow if anyone is still manufacturing these things, we might be livingoff the dregs of days gone by. So for new rods - buy now! The one I'd like to be able to purchase would be a Leonard-style NPBferrule. This would have a straight tube female, the male would stepdown to fit inside the female. This it the style of ferrule used on manyold production rods and would great to have for restorations. Lastly, there's the total crap Montague "milk-bottle" ferrules. Theystep down both female and the male. The male's hole size is tinycompared to the female cane O.D. - Montague did this so that they couldhave an almost straight cane section and then have the "taper" be thestep down in the ferrule. The ferrule acts as the taper. Yuck! But I'm sure that anyone with an old Montague rod that suffers fromcracked ferrules would love to be able to purchase this style becauseyou need to build up the cane to use a new NPB ferrule (as above) on oneof these rods. But for new rod construction, a Montague-style wouldtruely suck. Don Burns from projeto@ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br Wed May 20 15:06:34 1998 4.1/UCB5.64/4.03) Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules Don,Thank you for all the information. I'll call them.Sergio flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: Sergio, I think that this 1/64 difference is standard with all NPB ferrules thatare on the market today. With these guys, the male is a straight tube(with a closed end) and looks something like it could serve as a longeraser cap on a Pentel mechanical pencil. The female necks out to allowthe male to fit inside it. So it's somewhat the stamped metal equivilentto a Super Z ferrule. I believe these were designed for adding a joint to a long single- piecefiberglass/graphite blank. You would make the blank in one piece andthen cut it into 2 or 3 pieces and add these ferrules. But tip over buttferrule construction took over the plastic blank market and we are leftwith the remains of the plastic market design for use with cane. Whichisn't too bad for a new cane blank - sucks for replacing a missingLeonard -style ferrule. Angler's Workshop doubled there selling price in the '98 catalog fortheir NCP ferrules - maybe the supply is finally running out? I don'tknow if anyone is still manufacturing these things, we might be livingoff the dregs of days gone by. So for new rods - buy now! The one I'd like to be able to purchase would be a Leonard-style NPBferrule. This would have a straight tube female, the male would stepdown to fit inside the female. This it the style of ferrule used on manyold production rods and would great to have for restorations. Lastly, there's the total crap Montague "milk-bottle" ferrules. Theystep down both female and the male. The male's hole size is tinycompared to the female cane O.D. - Montague did this so that they couldhave an almost straight cane section and then have the "taper" be thestep down in the ferrule. The ferrule acts as the taper. Yuck! But I'm sure that anyone with an old Montague rod that suffers fromcracked ferrules would love to be able to purchase this style becauseyou need to build up the cane to use a new NPB ferrule (as above) on oneof these rods. But for new rod construction, a Montague-style wouldtruely suck. Don Burns from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed May 20 15:32:17 1998 Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Don,RO>Thank you for all the information. I'll call them.RO>Sergio Also try Dale Clemens or Netcraft. DGB from projeto@ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br Wed May 20 15:45:23 1998 4.1/UCB5.64/4.03) Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules Don,Do you have netcraft's e-mail or www or phone/fax?Sergio flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Don,RO>Thank you for all the information. I'll call them.RO>Sergio Also try Dale Clemens or Netcraft. DGB from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed May 20 15:56:36 1998 Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules RO>Don,RO>Do you have netcraft's e-mail or www or phone/fax?RO>Sergio Netcraft # -- (800) netcraft Don B. from davidjrogers@hotmail.com Wed May 20 16:04:05 1998 Wed, 20 May 1998 14:03:27 PDT Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules Try www.jannsnetcraft.com from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Wed May 20 13:50:21 1998 Received: from ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br (ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br 0500 Received: from ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br by ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:48:19 -0300 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Sergio Hiroshi Ishikawa Subject: Re: Middle Ground FerrulesReferences: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Sender: projeto@ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.brX- Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; AIX 4.1)X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Don,Do you have netcraft's e-mail or www or phone/fax?Sergio flyfisher@cmix.com wrote: RO>Don,RO>Thank you for all the information. I'll call them.RO>Sergio Also try Dale Clemens or Netcraft. DGB ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from projeto@ipmet2.ipmet.unesp.br Wed May 20 16:24:21 1998 4.1/UCB5.64/4.03) Subject: Re: Middle Ground Ferrules David and Don,Thanks for the help.Sergio David Rogers wrote: Try www.jannsnetcraft.com Don,Do you have netcraft's e-mail or www or phone/fax?Sergio from gc.williams@MCIONE.com Wed May 20 18:39:05 1998 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:39:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: List Check Hi Richard, Yes I'm the same one. In 1992 I became a water resource specialist withtheagency (TVA) dealing mostly with environmental water quality issueseffecting aquatic wildlife. That enabled me to move my family back toMaryville where we're originally from. My office is in Norris (Just belowNorris Dam in case your in the area). Since that time I really haven't had much of an opportunity to build rodsbut lately I've been getting the "itch" and so I ordered a new bale ofbamboo today. Haven't heard from you in a while but I hope all is well. I see a lot ofchanges in the rod building craft where I left off in 1992, but I mustadmit they're all good. Gary----------From: Fallcreek9 Subject: Re: List CheckDate: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 7:43 AM In a message dated 98-05-20 03:20:54 EDT, you write: Hello Gary: This one came in ok. There were several 5/19 listresponses. Incase you are new to the list and unaware, what happened to you hashappened tomost of us at one time or another. The fix is to simply unsubscribe andresubscribe. Has worked for me on a number of occasions. You will thenhaveto wait until this months archives are available to see what you missed.However, do not think anything of rod-building interest transpiredyesterday. Are you the same Gary Williams formerly of Ooltewah, TN? Regards,RTyree from CALucker@aol.com Wed May 20 18:59:45 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules - A meek reply In a message dated 98-05-15 20:39:54 EDT, you write: Didn't the rod builder Art Taylor end up with the Thomas ferrule tooling? Iknow he got the butt cap die, press and stuff. Some of it he donated to theMuseum of American FlyFishing I think. Chris from RVenneri@aol.com Wed May 20 19:40:42 1998 Subject: Dave Laclair please contact me Dave,Please email me with the insturctions you send with your payne formulaforblk oxide.Bob Venneri from CampblRods@aol.com Wed May 20 20:36:22 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrules - A meek reply No he didn't. Arthur purchased some of the odds and ends that were leftafterSam Carlson bought the company, mostly ferrules,guides,ect...Steve CampbellCampbell Rod Co.Brewer,ME from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed May 20 21:08:48 1998 Subject: Re: Dave Laclair please contact me Bob,1) Polish Nickel Silver Components with 0000 steel wool. 2) Clean parts with thinner to remove any oils from your hands. 3) Dip into solution for 60 seconds,rinse and dry. 4) Check color, if color is uneven or not dark enough, redip intosolution Do not exceed 150 seconds total, as this will etch the metal. Ifthis happens, you will have to repolish and start over. 5) After oxidizing, coat with a clear such as Sta-Brite to preventscratching and fading from the suns ultraviolet rays. Note: Payne's Oxidizer works at a faster rate as it ages.The older itgetsthe better it works. Caution: This solution will cause stainsUse in a well ventilated areaKeep out of reach of children JIM PAYNE'S ORIGINAL FORMULA NICKEL SILVER OXIDIZER THE FLY AND ROD ROOMELBRIDGE,NEW YORK Dave LeClair from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed May 20 22:13:22 1998 Subject: He's Finially Doing It I just got this reply to an e-mail from Thomas Lie-Nielsen - the priceofthe 60 1/2 is $144 - I told Thomas I'd take two Wayne, Good to hear from you....How about a couple of rodmaking URL's? I have a 20 degree (same blade width) version pattern sitting on my deskrightnow waiting for final approval. Hope to have them available in a couple ofmonths. Keep an eye on the web site ( or p lace an order). Same price asthe60 1/2. Anything else you'd like to see? Best, Thomas from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu May 21 04:21:54 1998 post.interalpha.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA24312 for; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:27:17 +0100 Subject: Re: John Norris Tony, You're thinking of John Norris. Their address is: 21 Victoria RoadPenrithCumbriaEngland Phone 768 864211Fax 768 476 These are pretty good dealers. I buy clothing from them. No problems. Theyhave a very good catalogue that they'll mail to you if you fax a request,and address. John from richjez@enteract.com Thu May 21 07:21:57 1998 0000 (147.126.253.18) Subject: Motels Does anyone know which motels in Grayling allow dogs?ThanksRich Jezioro*________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /||/______/_||_________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu May 21 08:15:54 1998 Subject: Re: Need a Payne taper. I have a request for a reproduction of a Payne 97 taper. The 98 is too closeto a 5wt for this guy. Does anybody have this taper or know of a source?Asalways, any help would be greatly appreciated. Rob Hoffhines from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Thu May 21 08:22:22 1998 with ESMTP id 254 for ;Thu, 21 May 1998 08:25:53 -0500 Subject: old ferrules THere has been some interest on the list for older ferrules. I knowthis isnt much time (hours) but if you are interested, check the ebayauction site at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=14081480 Jim K. from Molly1011@aol.com Thu May 21 11:02:05 1998 Subject: black/blueing guides help? gentleman, I'm having problems black/blueing guides. All I can find ishardchrome guides that won't turn black or black guides that have somepainted onlooking covering. How do I get guides that look like blued ferrules? HelpErik G. p.s. I would be grateful for anysuggestions for an 8 1/2 foot 5weight taper. Once again thanks forhelping out the rookie. from thramer@presys.com Thu May 21 11:37:36 1998 0000 Subject: 8 1/2 ft 5wt At the risk of repeating myself: There is no better 8 1/2 ft 5wt taper than the Granger which isavailable on Jerry's website.A.J.Thramer from jmckinnon@ottawa.iti.ca Thu May 21 12:16:16 1998 21 May 98 13:13:51 -0500 0500 21 May 98 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: Re: 8 1/2 ft 5wt what is the web site for jerry??-----Original Message----- Subject: 8 1/2 ft 5wt At the risk of repeating myself: There is no better 8 1/2 ft 5wt taper than the Granger which isavailable on Jerry's website.A.J.Thramer from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu May 21 13:47:29 1998 0500 Subject: Re: 8 1/2 ft 5wt Here it is: http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm Bookmark it. Refer to it daily. Read the archives, then read 'emagain! You'll learn and learn, and really enjoy yourself!Harry Boyd John McKinnon wrote: what is the web site for jerry??-----Original Message-----From: A.J.Thramer Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 2:41 PMSubject: 8 1/2 ft 5wt At the risk of repeating myself: There is no better 8 1/2 ft 5wt taper than the Granger which isavailable on Jerry's website.A.J.Thramer from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Thu May 21 15:30:47 1998 with ESMTP id 230 for ;Thu, 21 May 1998 15:34:16 -0500 Subject: Test...DONT read Test from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu May 21 20:23:27 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Molly,The problem you are having is because no one makes guides out of steel. They are all made of stainless steel. There is nothing on themarket that will color stainless steel very well. There is nothing that willcolor chrome. Even the black guides that are painted are usually stainless steelunderneth or are Black Chrome plated over stailess. The only way that you could dowhat you want to do is to have the stainless steel guides copper or bronzeplated and then darken the copper or bronze to get that blue/black color. Or,youcould make your own guides with a tool called The Snake Maker, which youmake the guides out of standard spring steel wire and then color them using aproduct called Snake Black. This will give you the blue/black color that you arelooking for. If you would like more information about The Snake Maker, e-mailmeyour mailing address and I will send you a brochure.Working as a customgunsmith doing every kind of metal finish you could think of, I know aboutcoloringmetals and the problem you are talking about. Dave LeClairThe Fly and Rod Room from Molly1011@aol.com Thu May 21 23:54:49 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Dave, Could you please send me the info on the "snake maker". (cool name)Thanks for responding. here is my mailing address Erik Gothberg 21Kohlepp #A Reno Nevada 89509 Take care from Molly1011@aol.com Thu May 21 23:56:54 1998 Subject: Re: 8 1/2 ft 5wt A.J. I'm new and thanks for repeating yourself. I appreciate It. Take careErik from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri May 22 06:41:21 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? At 09:07 PM 5/21/98 EDT, you wrote:snipOr, you could make your own guides with a tool called The Snake Maker, which youmake the guides out of standard spring steel wire and then color them usingaproduct called Snake Black. This will give you the blue/black color that you arelooking for. If you would like more information about The Snake Maker, e-mailmeyour mailing address and I will send you a brochure.>snipDave LeClairThe Fly and Rod Room Dave,Do you make your own? And, how do they compare in terms ofdurablity? Gary H. from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 22 12:18:53 1998 1997)) id8625660C.005E7B45 ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:11:59 -0500 Subject: The old thread of Why? To the list.......... I was just doing some e-mail administration and cleanup and I cameacrosssome stuff from the thread of a few months ago which I believe A.J.Thramerstarted about why we fish bamboo. Thought I'd pass on this little bit offlotsam.....I fished the Rush River in western Wisconsin Tuesday night. Itwas one ofthose beautiful May evenings we get so few of in this part of the world. Ipulled up to one of my favorite spots and noted only one car parked there.I thought myself lucky that night, as this spot is also one of everybodyelse's favorite spots. I got out of my car and walked onto the bridge as ismy wont, just to check out the stream. It was running well but a bitcloudy. Downstream about 200 yards I could see the owner of the othercar,slowly casting across and downstream. I thought little of this one way orthe other and turned to go gear up. As I finished pulling on my waders, an older gentleman came walking outofthe woods - the fisherman from downstream. We shyly greeted each other.Shyly, because in this day and age in that particular part of Wisconsin youaren't ever sure whether you're welcome, whether or not the law andfishingregulations are on your side. When we both figured out we were "friendlys"he came over and we started to chat. He was fishing with his son, he said.He was visiting from Florida and they had this chance this evening to wetaline. His son runs a graphic arts business in the northern metro ofMinneapolis/St. Paul and he's pretty busy. The old gentleman mentioned that he hadn't fished in ten years. First themove to Florida, and more recently cancer, had cut into his fishing. Thedisease had ravaged his casting arm to the point where it looked like hehad a war wound. His elbow was covered with a bandage from his mostrecentsurgery. He said he'd been in the hospital ten times in the last threeyears, but he was holding his own. I allowed as how perhaps the fishingwasthe best therapy he could find at this point and he heartily agreed. Itried, but I couldn't take my eyes off his arm, wondering at the courage Ifelt it took to fish when he wasn't even healed from the knife. It made thescratches I'd gotten earlier that evening look pretty silly. We talked some more about how big the fish were or weren't in thisstream,and whether that was important. We decided it wasn't. Just to have theopportunity to catch them was all the reward either of us felt we needed.Seven inches or twenty-two, the privilege is the same. I waded in andstarted to fish while he watched. As I moved upstream, he startedchattingwith a couple of farm kids who came down with their garden hackle. I gotinvolved with my tangled line and then a fish or two and lost sight of him.The next time I turned around, he was still talking to the kids. When Ifinally got back to the car a few hours later, he was gone. He and his sonhad had that evening of fishing that they wanted and that he needed. I hopeit makes the difference for him. Oh yeah...... he fished with a 35 year old Shakespeare fiberglass rod and ashiny green automatic reel. That's why I fish. from jcol@bccom.com Fri May 22 12:53:29 1998 Subject: Re: The old thread of Why? At 12:20 PM 5/22/98 -0500, you wrote: To the list.......... I was just doing some e-mail administration and cleanup and I cameacrosssome stuff from the thread of a few months ago which I believe A.J.Thramerstarted about why we fish bamboo. Thought I'd pass on this little bit offlotsam..... Thanks :) from rclarke@eou.edu Fri May 22 13:40:10 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? I really like Dave's Snakemaker. His English bronze wire is nice as well. I recommend both highly. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Heidt Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help?Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 4:45 AM At 09:07 PM 5/21/98 EDT, you wrote:snip >Or, you could make your own guides with a tool called The Snake Maker, which youmake the guides out of standard spring steel wire and then color themusing aproduct called Snake Black. This will give you the blue/black color that youarelooking for. If you would like more information about The Snake Maker,e-mail meyour mailing address and I will send you a brochure.>snip >Dave LeClairThe Fly and Rod Room Dave,Do you make your own? And, how do they compare in terms ofdurablity? Gary H. from ccurrojr@mindspring.com Fri May 22 14:43:17 1998 Subject: The Snake Maker Dear Dave Could you please send me information on yourSnake Maker and types of wire used with it?Actually, I'd like information on all the bamboorod components you offer. Thanks very much.Charlie Curro470 N. McNeil StreetMemphis, TN 38112 from ccurrojr@mindspring.com Fri May 22 14:59:03 1998 Subject: Re: The Snake Maker Apologies to the list for mistakenly sendinga personal note meant for Dave LeClair. Charlie Curro from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Fri May 22 15:25:00 1998 Subject: Payne 97 Rob-The Payne 97 taper I have is from an unvarnished rod. 0 - .064 5 - .07610 - .09815 - .11220 - .12625 - .13830 - .15035 - .162 40 - .17445 - .18650 - .19055 - .20660 - .22065 - .23270 - .24475 - .25280 - .28085 - .300 Dennis from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri May 22 16:21:59 1998 (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA057572116; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:21:56 -0700 Subject: What is everyone doing? Either it's been really quiet or my e-mail is tangled up again. I assume everyone is getting a jump on Memorial weekend, which means thereshould be some fishing stories to hear about next week. I hope that the relevance police will relax long enough on Tuesday to allow a few stories to filter through. If you mention what style of hook keeper you were utilizing at the time the fish took the fly, that should cover the technical requirements. On the other hand, some of you may make a fly rod this weekend. Let's hear about that also. What are you working on? Chris McDowell from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri May 22 16:44:15 1998 (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA135493451; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:44:11 -0700 Subject: RE: Payne 97 Dennis, What is the length and line wt. of the Payne 97? I'm unfamiliar withPayne rod models for obvious reasons. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from ragnarig@integrityol.com Fri May 22 17:50:33 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A2D8398012A; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:57:28 PDT Subject: Re: What is everyone doing? If you mention what style of hook keeper you were utilizing atthe time the fish took the fly, that should cover the technicalrequirements. On the other hand, some of you may make a fly rod thisweekend. Let's hear about that also. What are you working on? Chris McDowell Dear Chris Well, had my hungrily anticipated Kamloops trip come about, I'd have justjabbed those mongo wet flies into the cork where they belong (That'sabout 41/2 ft. below the gonzo ferrule) but, as things have not turned out asplanned, it looks as though I'll have a chance to work on my new "XL"planing form and finish wrapping a couple of new rods: a PHY 17 and anexperimental rod based on the light FE Thomas 9-footer. Of course, there's always a chance I can talk my son into heading down tothe lake for a few hours- but then, all the monkeys flying out of my buttwould probably spook the fish. I figure he'll come back around in anothertwenty years or so. Davy from flyfisher@cmix.com Fri May 22 18:18:14 1998 Subject: RE:What is everyone doing? RO>Either it's been really quiet or my e-mail is tangled up again. I assumeRO>everyone is getting a jump on Memorial weekend, which means thereshould beRO>some fishing stories to hear about next week. I hope that therelevanceRO>police will relax long enough on Tuesday to allow a few stories tofilterRO>through. If you mention what style of hook keeper you were utilizingatRO>the time the fish took the fly, that should cover the technicalRO>requirements. On the other hand, some of you may make a fly rod thisRO>weekend. Let's hear about that also. What are you working on? RO>Chris McDowell Chris, Have a nice long weekend - I'm heading up to the local mts (S. CA) for aday on the trout pond. Also, taking my bamboo baitcaster in the hopes oflearning how to use a B.C. rod. Don B. PS - For all you frying east-coasters, Truckee, CA had a low temp of 21deg's this morning. Trout fishing might not happen in the Sierra Nevadahigh country this year. Sking until August is the word. from Nodewrrior@aol.com Fri May 22 18:23:06 1998 Subject: Re: Payne 97 Should be a 7' 4wt 2pc, and a good one at that I'm sure... Rob from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri May 22 20:00:25 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Erik,I'll send you out a brochure for my products in the mail tomarrow.If you have any questions, just e-mail me. Dave LeClair from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri May 22 20:05:58 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Gary,Yes I make most all of my own guides. I've also sold 250 SnakeMakers to other split cane builders who make there own guides.As far as I cantell the guides made with Music wire ( spring tempered wire ) are holding upjust as good as anything else on the market.Also, with the Snake Maker, youcan make American twist guides and reverse English twist guides forreplacingguides on old rods that used English twist guides. If you would like a brochure, give me your mailing address andI'll send you one. Dave LeClair from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri May 22 20:18:17 1998 Subject: Re: The Snake Maker Charlie,I'll send you a brochure in the mail tomarrow, If you have anyquestions about any of my products, just e-mail me. Dave LeClair from flyfisher@nextdim.com Fri May 22 21:02:08 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC8BEA01C0; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:55:23 PDT Subject: Re: Payne 97 Hi all, I have built mostly rods of 7 1/2' to 8' I have a few shorter rodsas well, one of the more interesting rods is as follows.Winchester by Edwards, 6'11" 4wt, with staggered ferrule, 3 1/4" cap andring reel seat, 4 1/4 grip.Butt Tip0 -.360 0 -.1605 -.360 5 -.15010.5- .260 10 -.14513 -.250 15 -.13018 -.235 20 -.12523 -.220 25 -.11528 -.210 30 -.10033 -.200 35 -.08538 -.192 40 - .06243 -.180The odd stations on butt due to swell, this is a delicate but strong action,hope that some one will enjoy it.Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com- ----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Payne 97 Should be a 7' 4wt 2pc, and a good one at that I'm sure... Rob from jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se Sat May 23 03:37:56 1998 with ESMTP id AAACC6 for ;Sat, 23 May 1998 10:36:03 +0200 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Dave,my name is Jan Nystrom and I have been a member of the rodmakersgroup since 5months now. I live in Sweden and am an old bamboo rod collector. I wouldverymuchappreciate if you could send your catalog, the Snake Maker included to me.Jan NystromDrakenbergsgatan 11117 41 StockholmSWEDENFax +46 86683470 Best,Jan Nystrom LECLAIR123 wrote: Gary,Yes I make most all of my own guides. I've also sold 250 SnakeMakers to other split cane builders who make there own guides.As far as I cantell the guides made with Music wire ( spring tempered wire ) are holdingupjust as good as anything else on the market.Also, with the Snake Maker, youcan make American twist guides and reverse English twist guides forreplacingguides on old rods that used English twist guides. If you would like a brochure, give me your mailing address andI'll send you one. Dave LeClair from steveobg@nacs.net Sat May 23 07:20:31 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? E77CFB230028E6569661870D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- E77CFB230028E6569661870D Hmmm.... Stainless steel...Not having my metal working books handy, I seem to recall thatstainless is just regular steel heated to a specific temp, thenquinched... I wonder if heating, drawing the temper to a lower temperature wouldremove the stainless properties, while keeping the hardness (spring)needed...After all... browning of gun barrels, is nothing more than controledrusting.I think I'll put this question out on rec.crafts.metalworking. -anEXCELENT source of machines and info (ask there about making ferrules?). Ach! the mind wanders... I think I'll go fishing -Steve-O--------------E77CFB230028E6569661870D begin: vcardfn: Steven Staggsn: Staggs;Stevenorg: STAGworksadr: 8465 St. Rt. 88;;;Ravenna;Ohio;44266;USAemail;internet: steveobg@nacs.nettitle: Proprietertel;work: 888-376-8897tel;home: 330-296-6502 version: 2.1end: vcard --------------E77CFB230028E6569661870D-- from eestlow@srminc.com Sat May 23 11:57:59 1998 1997)) id8625660D.005C9BA8 ; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:51:31 -0500 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? As it turns out, stainless steels are different alloys than "regularsteels." As you perhaps know, there are hundreds of alloys of steels. Someare heat treatable and some aren't. Stainless steels typically havechromium and/or other materials added to the alloy to make themstainless.Some have sulfur added to make them machine more freely. This reducestheirresistance to rust. Also, for the record, few if any "stainless" steels areactually stainless. They simply take longer to rust. I'm drawing all this from memory of two or three careers ago, so to themetalworkers and machinists out there, please forgive my 50,000 footviewof the science. Best regards,-Ed Estlow Steve on 05/23/98 07:23:46 AM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Hmmm....Stainless steel...Not having my metal working books handy, I seem to recall thatstainless is just regular steel heated to a specific temp, thenquinched...I wonder if heating, drawing the temper to a lower temperature wouldremove the stainless properties, while keeping the hardness (spring)needed...After all... browning of gun barrels, is nothing more than controledrusting.I think I'll put this question out on rec.crafts.metalworking. -anEXCELENT source of machines and info (ask there about making ferrules?).Ach! the mind wanders...I think I'll go fishing- Steve-O begin: vcardfn: Steven Staggsn: Staggs;Stevenorg: STAGworksadr: 8465 St. Rt. 88;;;Ravenna;Ohio;44266;USAemail;internet: steveobg@nacs.nettitle: Proprietertel;work: 888-376-8897tel;home: 330-296-6502 version: 2.1end: vcard from robert.kope@MCI2000.com Sat May 23 19:56:01 1998 with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu;Sun, 24 May 1998 00:55:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The cutting edge of science boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BD8673.DCC06800" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BD8673.DCC06800 Hi all -- I=92m new to the listserver, and haven=92t yet planed a strip. I =stumbled onto the rodmakers website about a month ago. I=92ve been =reading through some of the archives and am in the early stages of = I purchased a Stanley model 9 1/2 plane and just spent the morning =flattening the sole (and I thought the thing looked flat right out of =the box). During the process I had plenty of time to reflect on how =planes actually cut. I=92ve begun to suspect that perhaps the model =601/2 may have an edge over the 9 1/2 (no pun intended). They say a =little knowledge is a dangerous thing and it may be more so when coupled=with a fertile mind and several hours of mindless mechanical labor. Back in March Sir Darryl performed a pseudo-scientific study with the =bevel angle of the edge on the irons of his planes (pseudo only in the =sense that the performance criteria were subjective). His conclusions =were: a steeper angle was harder to push, produced a more tightly curled =shaving, and had less tendency to lift grain; a shallower angle cut with =greater ease, but had more tendency to lift grain. It=92s also my =understanding that a shallower angle doesn=92t hold an edge as well as a=steeper angle, and that the model 60 1/2 shares some properties with a =shallower bevel angle in that it tends to cut more easily and lift grain =more readily than a 9 1/2 . Darryl didn=92t include the specifics of the =plane he used in the posting of his research study, but I seem to recall = It occurred to me that the cutting characteristics of a plane =shouldn=92t depend directly on the bevel angle. The cutting =characteristics should only depend on the depth of the iron exposed, the =radius of the edge, and the angle of attack of the iron (i.e., the angle =between the face of the iron and the wood surface). On a bench plane =with the bevel on the back of the iron, the angle of attack is set by =the bed angle, but on a block plane with the bevel on the front of the =iron, the angle of attack is the sum of the bevel angle and the bed =angle (20 degrees on the 9 1/2 and 12 degrees on the 60 1/2 ). The =bamboo shouldn=92t care what the angle on the back of the edge is, only =what=92s coming at it. If you=92re run down by a car while crossing the =street, it=92s only the bumper and grille that will make an impression =on you, not the undercarriage and back end ;>). Darryl settled on bevel angles of 32 degrees for roughing and 28 degrees = angles of attack of 52 degrees and 48 degrees respectively. To achieve =the same cutting characteristics with a 60 1/2 would require sharpening=the bevels at 40 degrees and 36 degrees. These bevel angles should hold =an edge better, and be easier to resharpen since the width of the =beveled face is less at a steeper bevel angle. You should also have =marginally finer control of the depth of cut because changing the depth =of cut by 0.001" requires sliding the iron roughly 0.003" at an incline =of 20 degrees and 0.005" at 12 degrees. And finally, the 60 1/2 is = Does this make sense? If it does, then couldn=92t you also substitute a =9 1/2 with an iron beveled at 73 degrees for a scraper plane? I apologize for taking so much bandwidth, but I=92d like to get the =benefit of your experience and hopefully stimulate some discussion and =maybe even some further research. -- Robert ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BD8673.DCC06800 Hi all --I’m new to the listserver, and haven’t yet planed a = stumbled onto the rodmakers website about a month ago. I’ve been = through some of the archives and am in the early stages of tooling up. = I purchased a Stanley model 9 1/2 plane and just spent the morning = the sole (and I thought the thing looked flat right out of the box). = process I had plenty of time to reflect on how planes actually cut. = begun to suspect that perhaps the model 601/2 may have an edge over the= (no pun intended). They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and = be more so when coupled with a fertile mind and several hours of = mechanical labor. Back in March Sir Darryl performed a pseudo-scientific study with the= angle of the edge on the irons of his planes (pseudo only in the sense = performance criteria were subjective). His conclusions were: a steeper = harder to push, produced a more tightly curled shaving, and had less = lift grain; a shallower angle cut with greater ease, but had more = doesn’t hold an edge as well as a steeper angle, and that the = shares some properties with a shallower bevel angle in that it tends to = easily and lift grain more readily than a 9 1/2 . Darryl didn’t = the specifics of the plane he used in the posting of his research study, = seem to recall mention elsewhere in the archives of a Record 9 1/2. It occurred to me that the cutting characteristics of a plane = depend directly on the bevel angle. The cutting characteristics should = depend on the depth of the iron exposed, the radius of the edge, and the = of attack of the iron (i.e., the angle between the face of the iron and = surface). On a bench plane with the bevel on the back of the iron, the = attack is set by the bed angle, but on a block plane with the bevel on = of the iron, the angle of attack is the sum of the bevel angle and the = what’s coming at it. If you’re run down by a car while = street, it’s only the bumper and grille that will make an = Darryl settled on bevel angles of 32 degrees for roughing and 28 = finishing (this seems reversed). On a 9 1/2, that corresponds to angles = attack of 52 degrees and 48 degrees respectively. To achieve the same = characteristics with a 60 1/2 would require sharpening the bevels at 40 = and 36 degrees. These bevel angles should hold an edge better, and be = resharpen since the width of the beveled face is less at a steeper bevel = You should also have marginally finer control of the depth of cut = changing the depth of cut by 0.001" requires sliding the iron = 0.003" at an incline of 20 degrees and 0.005" at 12 degrees. = finally, the 60 1/2 is slightly smaller and lighter than the 9 1/2. Does this make sense? If it does, then couldn’t you also = 1/2 with an iron beveled at 73 degrees for a scraper plane?I apologize for taking so much bandwidth, but I’d like to get = benefit of your experience and hopefully stimulate some discussion and = even some further research.-- Robert ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BD8673.DCC06800-- from flyfisher@nextdim.com Sat May 23 20:30:46 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id A6D13DD20146; Sat, 23 May 1998 18:24:33 PDT Subject: Re: The cutting edge of science boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD8678.E4DE18C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD8678.E4DE18C0 Robert I agree with you completely. With a 9 1/2 plane you can set what =angle you want simply by how you sharpen the cutting edge. I gind a =relief bevel to 20 degrees then sharpen to 50 degrees for my cutting =edge, when that edge gets about a 1/16 of an inch I regrind my relief =bevel, it's so much easier to hone the cutting edge when you don't have =to remove so much metal. I also use another blade that has a negative =beveled cutting edge that works as a scraper. If ther is any questions =mail me of list.Sincerely,Dell Coppock,"IN THE GREAT NORTHWEST"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/ -----Original Message-----From: robert.kope Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:51 PMSubject: The cutting edge of science Hi all -- I=92m new to the listserver, and haven=92t yet planed a strip. I =stumbled onto the rodmakers website about a month ago. I=92ve been =reading through some of the archives and am in the early stages of = I purchased a Stanley model 9 1/2 plane and just spent the morning =flattening the sole (and I thought the thing looked flat right out of =the box). During the process I had plenty of time to reflect on how =planes actually cut. I=92ve begun to suspect that perhaps the model =601/2 may have an edge over the 9 1/2 (no pun intended). They say a =little knowledge is a dangerous thing and it may be more so when coupled=with a fertile mind and several hours of mindless mechanical labor. Back in March Sir Darryl performed a pseudo-scientific study with =the bevel angle of the edge on the irons of his planes (pseudo only in =the sense that the performance criteria were subjective). His =conclusions were: a steeper angle was harder to push, produced a more =tightly curled shaving, and had less tendency to lift grain; a shallower =angle cut with greater ease, but had more tendency to lift grain. It=92s =also my understanding that a shallower angle doesn=92t hold an edge as =well as a steeper angle, and that the model 60 1/2 shares some =properties with a shallower bevel angle in that it tends to cut more =easily and lift grain more readily than a 9 1/2 . Darryl didn=92t =include the specifics of the plane he used in the posting of his =research study, but I seem to recall mention elsewhere in the archives = It occurred to me that the cutting characteristics of a plane =shouldn=92t depend directly on the bevel angle. The cutting =characteristics should only depend on the depth of the iron exposed, the =radius of the edge, and the angle of attack of the iron (i.e., the angle =between the face of the iron and the wood surface). On a bench plane =with the bevel on the back of the iron, the angle of attack is set by =the bed angle, but on a block plane with the bevel on the front of the =iron, the angle of attack is the sum of the bevel angle and the bed =angle (20 degrees on the 9 1/2 and 12 degrees on the 60 1/2 ). The =bamboo shouldn=92t care what the angle on the back of the edge is, only =what=92s coming at it. If you=92re run down by a car while crossing the =street, it=92s only the bumper and grille that will make an impression =on you, not the undercarriage and back end ;>). Darryl settled on bevel angles of 32 degrees for roughing and 28 =degrees for finishing (this seems reversed). On a 9 1/2, that =corresponds to angles of attack of 52 degrees and 48 degrees =respectively. To achieve the same cutting characteristics with a 60 1/2 =would require sharpening the bevels at 40 degrees and 36 degrees. These =bevel angles should hold an edge better, and be easier to resharpen =since the width of the beveled face is less at a steeper bevel angle. =You should also have marginally finer control of the depth of cut =because changing the depth of cut by 0.001" requires sliding the iron =roughly 0.003" at an incline of 20 degrees and 0.005" at 12 degrees. And = Does this make sense? If it does, then couldn=92t you also =substitute a 9 1/2 with an iron beveled at 73 degrees for a scraper =plane? I apologize for taking so much bandwidth, but I=92d like to get the =benefit of your experience and hopefully stimulate some discussion and =maybe even some further research. -- Robert ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD8678.E4DE18C0 Robert I agree with youcompletely. = plane you can set what angle you want simply by how you sharpen the = edge. I gind a relief bevel to 20 degrees then sharpen to 50 degrees for = cutting edge, when that edge gets about a 1/16 of an inch I regrind my = bevel, it's so much easier to hone the cutting edge when you don't have = remove so much metal. I also use another blade that has a negative = cutting edge that works as a scraper. If ther is any questions mail me = list.Sincerely,Dell Coppock,"IN THE = -----Original = RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:51 PMSubject: The cutting = science Hi all --I’m new to the listserver, and haven’t yet planed a = stumbled onto the rodmakers website about a month ago. I’ve = reading through some of the archives and am in the early stages of = up. I purchased a Stanley model 9 1/2 plane and just spent the = flattening the sole (and I thought the thing looked flat right out = box). During the process I had plenty of time to reflect on how = actually cut. I’ve begun to suspect that perhaps the model = have an edge over the 9 1/2 (no pun intended). They say a little = is a dangerous thing and it may be more so when coupled with a = and several hours of mindless mechanical labor. Back in March Sir Darryl performed a pseudo-scientific study with = bevel angle of the edge on the irons of his planes (pseudo only in = that the performance criteria were subjective). His conclusions = steeper angle was harder to push, produced a more tightly curled = and had less tendency to lift grain; a shallower angle cut with = ease, but had more tendency to lift grain. It’s also my = that a shallower angle doesn’t hold an edge as well as a = angle, and that the model 60 1/2 shares some properties with a = bevel angle in that it tends to cut more easily and lift grain more = than a 9 1/2 . Darryl didn’t include the specifics of the = used in the posting of his research study, but I seem to recall = elsewhere in the archives of a Record 9 1/2. characteristics should only depend on the depth of the iron exposed, = radius of the edge, and the angle of attack of the iron (i.e., the = between the face of the iron and the wood surface). On a bench plane = the bevel on the back of the iron, the angle of attack is set by the = angle, but on a block plane with the bevel on the front of the iron, = angle of attack is the sum of the bevel angle and the bed angle (20 = on the 9 1/2 and 12 degrees on the 60 1/2 ). The bamboo = what the angle on the back of the edge is, only what’s coming = If you’re run down by a car while crossing the street, = Darryl settled on bevel angles of 32 degrees for roughing and 28 = of attack of 52 degrees and 48 degrees respectively. To achieve the = cutting characteristics with a 60 1/2 would require sharpening the = 40 degrees and 36 degrees. These bevel angles should hold an edge = and be easier to resharpen since the width of the beveled face is = steeper bevel angle. You should also have marginally finer control = depth of cut because changing the depth of cut by 0.001" = sliding the iron roughly 0.003" at an incline of 20 degrees and = 0.005" at 12 degrees. And finally, the 60 1/2 is slightly = lighter than the 9 1/2. Does this make sense? If it does, then couldn’t you also = a 9 1/2 with an iron beveled at 73 degrees for a scraper plane?I apologize for taking so much bandwidth, but I’d like to = benefit of your experience and hopefully stimulate some discussion = even some further research.-- Robert ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BD8678.E4DE18C0-- from saltwein@swbell.net Sat May 23 21:30:22 1998 gw4adm.rcsntx.swbell.net VAA27650 Subject: Re: The cutting edge of science Dell, I would like to hear more about the planing angle on the blade youhavea negative rake on and use for a scraper. What degree of angle do you put on the blade? Are there anyproblemswith the scrapings clearing? Do you use this instead of other scrapers?I would have gone off list, but there doesn't seem to be much trafficand it seems to me this is what the list is for. I like Robert's idea of changing the angle of attack on the smallerplane to end up with the desired 40-50 degrees. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from triadvertising@sprintmail.com Sat May 23 21:58:14 1998 mailfep2-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 0700 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? type="54455854"; Steve wrote: Hmmm.... Stainless steel...Not having my metal working books handy, I seem to recall thatstainless is just regular steel heated to a specific temp, thenquinched...I wonder if heating, drawing the temper to a lower temperature wouldremove the stainless properties, while keeping the hardness (spring)needed...After all... browning of gun barrels, is nothing more than controledrusting.I think I'll put this question out on rec.crafts.metalworking. -anEXCELENT source of machines and info (ask there about makingferrules?). Ach! the mind wanders... I think I'll go fishing -Steve-O Stainless steels comprise a whole different category of steel. There aremany variations on the 'stainless steel' theme ... basically,stainless steels are complex alloys that provide many differentcharacteristics 'ordinary steel' is incapable of providing -- corrosionresistance, strength and formability to name a few. Heat treating andtempering have nothing to do with creating a 'stainless' steel. Bettercheck those metal working books. Joe Loverti Loverti Custom Cane Fly Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sat May 23 22:12:35 1998 Subject: Payne 97 Chris- The Payne 97's a 7'0" , 4 wt Dennis "obvious reasons".... I started collecting "old , useless" bamboo before itgot "Classic" ....I don't think I could afford most of what I've pickedup, now.... or if I did buy it ,I"m not sure I could fish it.....If youspent $3000.00 for a Payne would you toss it in the back of a pickup andgofish for a week or just keep it to fish once a year then put it back in thetube???? (Assuming you had $3000.00 to spend on a rod not on bills, carrepairs, kids, school, etc,etc.) from FLYROD777@aol.com Sat May 23 22:43:33 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Need to remember that stainless has crome in it unlike mild steel and thatisthe big difference. There are different types of stainless out there also.There is a 300 and 400 series. The difference is the amount of crome andalsois the reason for the difference in price of some of the items you buytodaythat are stainless. Some stainless materials, commonly called CRES, canrust,so be caareful on what you buy. Mark Hallowell from SalarFly@aol.com Sun May 24 01:22:53 1998 Subject: Re: The cutting edge of science BAA25947 In a message dated 5/23/98 5:57:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,robert.kope@MCI2000.com writes: Lots of stuff snipped.... Darryl didn't include the specifics of the plane he used in the posting of his research study, but I seem to recall mention elsewhere in the archives of a Record91/2. I own both a Stanley 9 1/2 and a Record 9 1/2. Don't have a 60 1/2. More stuff snipped.... Darryl settled on bevel angles of 32 degrees for roughing and 28 degrees finishing (this seems reversed). When rough planing I take deeper cuts to remove material quicker.The 32 degrees for rough planing was to keep from chipping or liftingwhentaking the deeper cuts. The 28 degrees for finish planing was to try andkeep from having to push too hard and maintain a little more controlof the cut. With the finer cut of finish planing (.002 on average) chippingisn't much of a problem. On a 9 1/2, that corresponds to angles of attack of 52 degrees and 48 degrees respectively. To achieve the samecutting characteristics with a 60 1/2 would require sharpening the bevels at 40 degrees and 36 degrees. These bevel angles should hold an edge better,andbe easier to resharpen since the width of the beveled face is less at asteeperbevel angle. You should also have marginally finer control of the depth of cut because changing the depth of cut by 0.001" requires sliding the iron roughly 0.003" at an incline of 20 degrees and 0.005" at 12 degrees. And finally, the 60 1/2 is slightly smaller and lighter than the 9 1/2. Sounds like it should work. There are a few rodmakers on this list whouse a 60 1/2 plane already, but the bottom line is if it works for you, goahead and do it. Does this make sense? If it does, then couldn't you also substitute a 91/2with an iron beveled at 73 degrees for a scraper plane? Perhaps that would work. Give it a try. I apologize for taking so much bandwidth, but I'd like to get the benefitof your experience and hopefully stimulate some discussion and maybe evensome further research. I'm kind of tired of grinding new bevels on my plane blades. Your turn! Darryl Hayashida from WDHCJL@aol.com Sun May 24 10:20:53 1998 Subject: The Force Guide Spacing I may have missed the post but, could someone please post guide spacingforWaynes 8063 (The Force). Thanks in advance.doug hall from steveobg@nacs.net Sun May 24 13:29:49 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? I stand (or rather, sit) corrected... I looked it up, and y'all are ofcourse corect. I had in mind the steel being stuck on an electro-magnet,and heated until the steel lost its magnetic properties, and droppedinto a quench bath... a sort of "poor man's stainless".Just goes to show how well my foot fits in between my teeth... Steve "Pass the salt, please" -O Joe Loverti wrote:There aremany variations on the 'stainless steel' theme ... basically,stainless steels are complex alloys that provide many differentcharacteristics Joe Loverti Loverti Custom Cane Fly Rodshttp://www.triadvertising.com/canerods from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun May 24 16:02:43 1998 Subject: Re: black/blueing guides help? Jay N. Jay,I would be glad to send you one of my brochures. If you have anyquestions, just e-mail me. Dave Leclair from lblan@provide.net Sun May 24 20:55:44 1998 Subject: RE: The Force Guide Spacing Doug; I don't know if I saw a request for it....Wayne is teaching his spring class in Grayrock this coming week, he maynotsee your post. Perhaps someone else will have it. This is an awesome feeling rod! Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Sunday, May 24, 1998 11:20 AM Subject: The Force Guide Spacing I may have missed the post but, could someone please post guidespacing forWaynes 8063 (The Force). Thanks in advance.doug hall from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 25 00:47:57 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A6537A2016E; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:49:07 MDT Subject: Re: The Force Guide Spacing At 11:20 AM 5/24/98 EDT, you wrote:I may have missed the post but, could someone please post guide spacingforWaynes 8063 (The Force). Thanks in advance.doug hall Doug;If you have Waynes book and program, try running it thru Guide. I thinkwayne uses 9/16 for spacing increments, but check the explanation on theprogram to see.Otherwise, the guide spacing for 8' rods in Garrison hasworked well for me, you might have to play with it a little for a 3 piece.John Channer from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 25 00:58:12 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A8C4ED501B8; Sun, 24 May 1998 23:59:32 MDT Subject: Straight section! All;Please excuse me, but I had to tell someone.After many attempts, I finallygot a damn near perfectly straight rod section.Tweaked and played withbinder weights, and used my old wood form and a couple of pieces of2"x3/8"flat iron and Epon and that sucker is right there! I sure hope the tipsturn out as good. I don't know how every one else is doing, butstraightening rod sections has been the most difficult and frustrating partof building a rod for me. Many thanks to Chris Bogart and his tips onbinder tuning and to Carl O'Connor for his idea about weighting the roddown in the form while the glue sets up, and to everyone else who hasshared an thought about how to get the sections to come out of the stringstraight.John Channer from emiller257@dataflo.net Mon May 25 08:39:46 1998 wddataflo.dataflo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20696 for Subject: Re: Straight section! john channer wrote: All;Please excuse me, but I had to tell someone.After many attempts, Ifinallygot a damn near perfectly straight rod section.Tweaked and played withbinder weights, and used my old wood form and a couple of pieces of2"x3/8"> flat iron and Epon and that sucker is right there! I sure hope thetipsturn out as good. I don't know how every one else is doing, butstraightening rod sections has been the most difficult and frustratingpartof building a rod for me. Many thanks to Chris Bogart and his tips onbinder tuning and to Carl O'Connor for his idea about weighting the roddown in the form while the glue sets up, and to everyone else who hasshared an thought about how to get the sections to come out of thestringstraight.John ChannerJohn, now the folks in Durango can open their windowsagain!Seriously, I know where you're comin' from, those twists resist straightening once the glue is dry. Heating and twisting seems to help but there's still kinks here and there to some extent. Have a nice Mem. Day. OBTW, which taper is the FORCE? Is the 8063 an 8ft 6wt 3pc.? Ed M. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon May 25 10:06:06 1998 Subject: Re: Re: RVenneri/quality of service and product?Ed Miller Brett et al,I, too, am very pleased with Bob's quality and service-the only problen Isee is if we all use him there may be a waiting list :-).Regards,Hank. from WDHCJL@aol.com Mon May 25 10:19:39 1998 Subject: Re: Straight section! In a message dated 98-05-25 09:46:09 EDT, you write: Thats it! Its one of Wayne's Tapers. from Cmwall@aol.com Mon May 25 16:29:59 1998 Subject: Finish Gentlemen,Perhaps one of you can help me in selecting a finish for cane rods. I havebeen making rods for only a year now and have been finishing with MiniWax Polyurethane clear satin however I have beenhaving some problems with chipping and flaking on my last rod. I have beendipping rods. Cleaning with paint thinner. I just purchased Pratt & Lambertno. 61 Varnish and was going to try on my next rod which is ready to befinished. Any comments would be appreciated.ThankYou,Mac from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon May 25 22:46:51 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon,25May 1998 23:49:17 -0400 Subject: Straighening.... I would like to hear some techniques for straightening shell epon. Up until the rod I glued up at Fergus I had not felt a need to straighten (lucky or stupid I guess). Jon Lintvet8602 Wild Olive Drive Potomac, MD 20854(800) 836-7558(301) 340-0194 http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from JHecht9234@aol.com Mon May 25 23:12:15 1998 Subject: varnish Once the varnish on a rod has dried and hardened for an extended time(monthsor even 1+ years), can you sand and apply a new final coat, or do you needtodo some kind of stripping of the old varnish? If you can sand, are thereanyspecial procedures, what grit is recommended, etc. I am using PPG polyurethane (77-5 I think). Thanks in advance. from flyfisher@nextdim.com Tue May 26 00:03:51 1998 (SMTPD32-4.03) id ABCC68A60134; Mon, 25 May 1998 21:57:48 PDT Subject: Re: varnish To J Hecht, I would carefully scuff with 4/0 steel wool then clean wellwithmineral spirits. If there is nicks or scratchs that can not be removed withsteel wool feather them with 400 grit emery paper, them polish withsteelwool. -----Original Message----- Subject: varnish Once the varnish on a rod has dried and hardened for an extended time(monthsor even 1+ years), can you sand and apply a new final coat, or do you needtodo some kind of stripping of the old varnish? If you can sand, are thereanyspecial procedures, what grit is recommended, etc. I am using PPG polyurethane (77-5 I think). Thanks in advance. from jmulvey@mis1.ci.newton.ma.us Tue May 26 10:20:17 1998 (envelope- from jmulvey@mis1.ci.newton.ma.us) (envelope- from jmulvey@mis1.ci.newton.ma.us) 1.21);26 May 98 11:24:29 EST EST Subject: Montagues Hi All,A guy I work with just dropped off three old fly rods. He has no use for them, so I have been whining at him to bring them in. I want to give him a fair price for these items. I looked at Dick Spurr's web page, but those prices are for excellent quality rods. These are not excellent quality. Any help you can give me would be appreciated... Of course I have Mr Sinclair's Rod Restoration Handbook. I just don't carry it with me! And I can't wait to get home!!! Aaarrghh! I'd like to restore one and make a banty out of the other. I really want a six footer for the smaller New England streams. I just have to make an offer for these first. The items:Montague Clear Lake, 3 pc, sliding ring all metal reel set. 1 Tip. Decal is in pretty good shape, cork grip is extremely poor. Montague Rapidan, fair condition, brand new (ugly) aluminum reel seet, one guide redone in sewing thread, has a hook keeper, something I havenever seen on a Montague before. Has a spare tip. Came in a tube, that's how Iknow it's a Rapidan. The decal on the rod is worn off, but I can see a partofanother decal that said Tonkin. This can is darker than my others, btw. This is an 8 1/2 ft Medium Trout Fly rod, so says the tube. Finally, a non bamboo. I have this 2 piece Langley model #5680 from San Diego. Looks like bamboo from a couple feet away, but it appears to be fiberglass. Kind of neat. Probably 8 - 81/2 feet long. Thanks in advance for all your help! You guys are awesome! BTW, since this is my monthly post, what is happening with the Silk Thread purchase? Joe Mulvey from 3i2i7n3@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Tue May 26 11:29:23 1998 CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU(IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP; Tue, 26 May 98 12:28:38 EDT Subject: Re: Finish Mac I have been using the P&L #61 for a couple of years now with goodsuccess. It does tend to gel in a dip tube, but otherwise I find it awholly acceptable produce. I believe they have a newer product that ismoreUV resistant. The 61 is pretty high gloss, but you can sand it down with 1500 gritsand paper and bring it back to satin with car paint polishing compound. Itmight be a bit "hazy" still, but it might also be "satiny." I can't quitedecide which. I suspect that most others sue something other, newer, than P&L 61.But I have no complaints. At 05:26 PM 5/25/98 EDT, you wrote:Gentlemen,Perhaps one of you can help me in selecting a finish for cane rods. I havebeen making rods for only a year now and havebeen finishing with MiniWax Polyurethane clear satin however I havebeenhaving some problems with chipping and flaking on my last rod. I havebeendipping rods. Cleaning with paint thinner. I just purchased Pratt &Lambertno. 61 Varnish and was going to try on my next rod which is ready to befinished. Any comments would be appreciated.ThankYou,Mac Mark M. FreedDepartment of English Language and LiteratureCentral Michigan University from SalarFly@aol.com Tue May 26 11:33:44 1998 Subject: 5 foot 1 piece 4DT taper Those of you that were interested in the 5 foot 1 piece 4DT.Because of another rod I need to finish for a paying customer,I haven't been able to work on the shorty, but this weekendI taped guides on and tested it with a 5 WF. I hate to soundlike I'm blowing my own horn, but the taper amazed me.Keep in mind what this taper was designed for - short castsin overgrown, brushy, canopy covered streams. Casts out to30 - 35 feet felt like an extension of my arm. Double haulingand working hard (I'm not an expert caster) I got it out past 50feet a couple times. Shooting line was easy, and due to theCattanach Hinge it roll casts fairly well for such a short rod.The reel seat and handle combined length shouldn't exceed10 inches, or if you want to put a full length handle on it, extend the butt end. The front end of the handle shouldn'tgo past the 50 inch station or it will interfere with the hinge. Here is the taper: 0 0.0685 0.07410 0.08615 0.10420 0.12425 0.13830 0.15435 0.16840 0.18045 0.18250 0.21555 0.23560 0.235 Darryl Hayashida from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue May 26 17:09:38 1998 (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA274750561; Tue, 26 May 1998 15:09:22 -0700 Subject: Young Para 15 What is the recommended line wt. for the Paul Young Para 15. If this is a matter of personal taste, what have some of you found to be good line weights for the dry taper listed in the taper archives. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 26 17:37:01 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Payne 97 Dell,Thanks for the taper-looks like it might be fun to try. One thing ,though.It would be helpful if everyone would give dimensions from the tip end ofeachsection down to the butt.Regards,Hank. from jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se Tue May 26 17:43:16 1998 with ESMTP id AAA1FE3 for ;Wed, 27 May 1998 00:41:21 +0200 Subject: Restoration classic rods Fellowmen/women of the List, I have done some trials on rodbuilding 20 years ago and managedto have some rod finished too. Very unproffessional, stripesseparated and so on. Do however have one rod left still workingOK. I learned that rodbuilding is very difficult. Early this yearI discovered the Rodmakers List. I only wish all this flow ofinformation and knowledge had been available 20 years ago. Iremember a friend of mine who then asked what I did wrong. I couldnot answer then. After following this list posting I now know Idid most things wrong. I follow the list with such interested thatI think I will do a new try now20 years later. The main purpose for writing you all now is that during thedecades I have managed to have quite a collection of fine oldclassic American built rods. Many of them as an inheritance frommy father who was a dedicated fly fisherman and collector. Some ofthese fine old rods do now need a restoration or a refinish.This is were I hope you can help me find some skilled builders whohave good knowledge of the old builders and the authenticmaterials. Someone who has specialized in restoring old rods froma special builder or builders to the grace they had as newbuilt.They are all healthy rods but some of them have aged varnish,loose ferrules, worn threads, loose ormissing guides. These are the rods I would like torestore/refinish. - H.A. Kosmic, built by Payne with his signature wraps, 10 ft, 3pc, 2 tips - aged varnish needs refinish, missing 1 guide. - Hiram Hawes, Sold by Abbie & Imbrie, 9 ft, 3 pc, 1 tip - agedvarnish needs refinish, some threads need replacement. - B.F. Nicols, 10.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, rattan handle, very old -aged varnish, worn threads, aged loose ring guides, loose ferrule,needs restoration. - F.E. Thomas Special, 8.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, old - excellent butrewrapped uncorrect, needs correct silk and wind pattern. - PHY Dry Fly Special, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips, old - lost guide, looseferrule. - Lyle L. Dickerson 8014, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips - bag marked varnish,loose guide. - H.L. Leonard Bangor Me, Calcutta cane, 10.5 ft rattan handle, 3pc, 3 tips, very old - aged varnish, worn loose ring guides. Please help me with names, adresses and phonenumbers if possibleto skilled builders who can restore the rods above to theiroriginal appearance.Thank you all,Jan Nystrom, Sweden from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue May 26 18:11:48 1998 Wed, 27 May 1998 07:11:06 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Young Para 15 On Tue, 26 May 1998, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: What is the recommended line wt. for the Paul Young Para 15. If this is a matter of personal taste, what have some of you found to be good line weights for the dry taper listed in the taper archives. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Try a DT #5 Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from thramer@presys.com Tue May 26 19:28:21 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Young Para 15 CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: What is the recommended line wt. for the Paul Young Para 15. If this is amatter of personal taste, what have some of you found to be good lineweights for the dry taper listed in the taper archives. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.eduHi Chris,A DT5 or a DT6. The 5wt works better for those who a) like a fasterrod b) have a rod built with slower power fibers. The DT 6 is I believea better all around line if the rod will carry it, the majority will. Ihave even used a WF7 on lakes with no ill effects. The 5 or 6 wt debatehas been going on for many years. Unfortunately it boils down to theinfamous personal preference. You could also drop by and TRY one if youwant!A.J.Thramer from WDHCJL@aol.com Tue May 26 20:54:15 1998 Subject: Re: 5 foot 1 piece 4DT taper Could you supply the guide spacing that you found best?thanksdoug hall from Fallcreek9@aol.com Tue May 26 22:00:53 1998 Subject: Re: Young Para 15 Hi Chris: The reproduction of the 1950's PHY catalog that I had listed theline as HDH which I think translates to a # 5. Btw, the price was $75. Anauthentic catalog I presently have, which lists the rod at $325 (so a fewyears later) says the line is # 5. So, a question: did the fact that Young only flamed his rods, as I have readand which may be true (can anyone authenticate?), make them a bit slowerand/or less "strong"? I do know that early on he used resorcinol as I haveseen the characteristic glue lines in a couple of early Young rods, but notsure if that would have any bearing. Best Regards,RTyree from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue May 26 23:42:43 1998 Subject: Re: 5 foot 1 piece 4DT taper Darryl,I just ran the numbers, they look great! Thank you so much for sharing.Now toget the time to make it... Rob Hoffhines from SalarFly@aol.com Wed May 27 00:46:36 1998 Subject: Re: 5 foot 1 piece 4DT taper In a message dated 5/26/98 6:55:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,WDHCJL@aol.comwrites: Could you supply the guide spacing that you found best?thanks Like I said in the last post, I taped the guides on to testthe taper. I just did it by eye. A better guide spacingwill have to wait until I have time to actually finish therod. Darryl Hayashida from cmj@post11.tele.dk Wed May 27 01:30:40 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA30888 +0200 Subject: Sv: Restoration classic rods BAA12798 -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----Fra: jan nystråm Til: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Emne: Restoration classic rods Fellowmen/women of the List, I have done some trials on rodbuilding 20 years ago and managedto have some rod finished too. Very unproffessional, stripesseparated and so on. Do however have one rod left still workingOK. I learned that rodbuilding is very difficult. Early this yearI discovered the Rodmakers List. I only wish all this flow ofinformation and knowledge had been available 20 years ago. Iremember a friend of mine who then asked what I did wrong. I couldnot answer then. After following this list posting I now know Idid most things wrong. I follow the list with such interested thatI think I will do a new try now20 years later. The main purpose for writing you all now is that during thedecades I have managed to have quite a collection of fine oldclassic American built rods. Many of them as an inheritance frommy father who was a dedicated fly fisherman and collector. Some ofthese fine old rods do now need a restoration or a refinish.This is were I hope you can help me find some skilled builders whohave good knowledge of the old builders and the authenticmaterials. Someone who has specialized in restoring old rods froma special builder or builders to the grace they had as newbuilt.They are all healthy rods but some of them have aged varnish,loose ferrules, worn threads, loose ormissing guides. These are the rods I would like torestore/refinish. - H.A. Kosmic, built by Payne with his signature wraps, 10 ft, 3pc, 2 tips - aged varnish needs refinish, missing 1 guide. - Hiram Hawes, Sold by Abbie & Imbrie, 9 ft, 3 pc, 1 tip - agedvarnish needs refinish, some threads need replacement. - B.F. Nicols, 10.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, rattan handle, very old -aged varnish, worn threads, aged loose ring guides, loose ferrule,needs restoration. - F.E. Thomas Special, 8.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, old - excellent butrewrapped uncorrect, needs correct silk and wind pattern. - PHY Dry Fly Special, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips, old - lost guide, looseferrule. - Lyle L. Dickerson 8014, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips - bag marked varnish,loose guide. - H.L. Leonard Bangor Me, Calcutta cane, 10.5 ft rattan handle, 3pc, 3 tips, very old - aged varnish, worn loose ring guides. Please help me with names, adresses and phonenumbers if possibleto skilled builders who can restore the rods above to theiroriginal appearance.Thank you all,Jan Nystrom, Sweden Hej Jan Du behoves ikke at sende dine stânger til USA. Du kan starte med at skrivetilmig pö cmj@post11.tele.dk eller ringe om aftenen pö tlf. 43 96 81 69. Lados föen snak Carsten Jorgensen Skolevej 142600 GlostrupDanmark PS Jeg bor lige udenfor Kobenhavn PS Guys: excuse me for using bandwith in danish, but I could not maildirectlyto Jan regards Carsten from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Wed May 27 07:12:37 1998 Subject: Another theory shot to hell Guys, 12/64 ferrule = a 4 wt13/64 ferrule = a 5 wt14/64 ferrule = a 6 wt. when building 2 piece rods. Perhaps the above is true if you stick tostraight tapers. Along comes the discussion on Para's and I learn thatsomefolks including the original builder figures that a 15 is a 5 wt. I'd guess that making pronouncements about anything is risky as someonewill come and say " what about this or this or ????" Is nothing sacred? Don from WDHCJL@aol.com Wed May 27 07:13:32 1998 Subject: Scraper Balde Angles What seems to be the most popular angle to put on your scraper bladethesedays guys?doug from flyfisher@cmix.com Wed May 27 07:55:50 1998 Subject: RE:Montagues RO>The items:RO>Montague Clear Lake, 3 pc, sliding ring all metal reel set. 1 Tip.RO>Decal is in pretty good shape, cork grip is extremely poor. Value: $10 - $30, IMHO RO>Montague Rapidan, fair condition, brand new (ugly) aluminum reel seet,RO>one guide redone in sewing thread, has a hook keeper, something I haveneverRO>seen on a Montague before. Has a spare tip. Came in a tube, that's howIRO> know it's a Rapidan. The decal on the rod is worn off, but I can see aparRO>another decal that said Tonkin. This can is darker than my others,RO>btw. This is an 8 1/2 ft Medium Trout Fly rod, so says the tube. Value: $40 - $100. Most Montague's, except for very low-end, came with"ring" style hook keepers. Late-era Rapidan's had black bakelite spacerreel seats and had flamed cane. They were below the cutoff for good NSferrules and so have the prone to crack NPB bottle-shaped ferrules. RO>Finally, a non bamboo. I have this 2 piece Langley model #5680 fromRO>San Diego. Looks like bamboo from a couple feet away, but it appearsRO>to be fiberglass. Kind of neat. Probably 8 - 81/2 feet long. Value: GOK's ($5 - $20?). RO>Thanks in advance for all your help! You guys are awesome! BTW,RO>since this is my monthly post, what is happening with the Silk ThreadRO>purchase? RO>Joe Mulvey I guess it died - I haven't heard anything myself. All values are IMHO. Don Burns from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Wed May 27 08:03:44 1998 Subject: RE: Restoration classic rods IAA20820 Dwight Lyons in Portland Oregon is about as good as they get. He hasspecialized in this sort of thing for years. I have several rods he'srestored and they are beautiful. His work is not inexpensive, and thereis a wait due to his popularity, but it's worth it. Dwight's e-mail is:lyons@teleport.com He also has a web- site:http://www.teleport.com/~lyons/ -----Original Message-----From: jan nystråm [SMTP:jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se]Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 3:44 PM Subject: Restoration classic rods Fellowmen/women of the List, I have done some trials on rodbuilding 20 years ago andmanagedto have some rod finished too. Very unproffessional, stripesseparated and so on. Do however have one rod left still workingOK. I learned that rodbuilding is very difficult. Early thisyearI discovered the Rodmakers List. I only wish all this flow ofinformation and knowledge had been available 20 years ago. Iremember a friend of mine who then asked what I did wrong. Icouldnot answer then. After following this list posting I now know Idid most things wrong. I follow the list with such interestedthatI think I will do a new try now20 years later. The main purpose for writing you all now is that during thedecades I have managed to have quite a collection of fine oldclassic American built rods. Many of them as an inheritance frommy father who was a dedicated fly fisherman and collector. Someofthese fine old rods do now need a restoration or a refinish.This is were I hope you can help me find some skilled builderswhohave good knowledge of the old builders and the authenticmaterials. Someone who has specialized in restoring old rodsfroma special builder or builders to the grace they had as newbuilt.They are all healthy rods but some of them have aged varnish,loose ferrules, worn threads, loose ormissing guides. These are the rods I would like torestore/refinish. - H.A. Kosmic, built by Payne with his signature wraps, 10 ft, 3pc, 2 tips - aged varnish needs refinish, missing 1 guide. - Hiram Hawes, Sold by Abbie & Imbrie, 9 ft, 3 pc, 1 tip - agedvarnish needs refinish, some threads need replacement. - B.F. Nicols, 10.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, rattan handle, very old -aged varnish, worn threads, aged loose ring guides, looseferrule,needs restoration. - F.E. Thomas Special, 8.5 ft, 3 pc, 2 tips, old - excellent butrewrapped uncorrect, needs correct silk and wind pattern. - PHY Dry Fly Special, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips, old - lost guide,looseferrule. - Lyle L. Dickerson 8014, 8 ft, 2 pc, 2 tips - bag markedvarnish,loose guide. - H.L. Leonard Bangor Me, Calcutta cane, 10.5 ft rattan handle,3pc, 3 tips, very old - aged varnish, worn loose ring guides. Please help me with names, adresses and phonenumbers if possibleto skilled builders who can restore the rods above to theiroriginal appearance.Thank you all,Jan Nystrom, Sweden from bobpetti@VNET.IBM.COM Wed May 27 08:40:43 1998 Wed, 27 May 98 09:40:38 EDT Subject: Stuck Ferrules Help!!! Some of you might remember my popping in quickly awhile ago with sometung oil questions. Well, I finished the rod and it's a dandy fishinginstrument, quickly stealing my heart away from my graphite rods. Big problem this past Sunday. Here's the play-by-play. Take the rod out of the tube to assemble it and I find the male ferruledoesn't seem to fit as well as it did the last time I used it (this wasthe second time it's been fished). It's an REC nickel silver ferruleand I happened to notice the male was tarnished a bit. It finally slidinto place, but I did notice it going in farther than ever before. Fast forward a half a day and it's time to leave. I couldn't get the two sections to separate. Hmmm. A little more forceand the female ferrule came off it's station and now I'm really scared. At this point, I leave things alone and drive home. Thinking that coldmakes things contract (the Costanza Shrinkage Factor), I put the twostuck ferrules in a glass of ice water and let it sit for awhile.A quick drying and I get to pulling again, and now the male pops offthe rod blank and I'm left with two sections of rod with no ferrules,and two really stuck ferrules. I'm at a loss. A friend has suggested using heat instead of cold, hoping that thefemale will expand enough so I can get the male part out. He alsomentioned a wooden device as described in the Garrison book. What Ican't figure out is how to get a grip on the male portion, as only alittle bit is showing and it's completely smooth. I'll try the heatand the wood thing, but I was hoping for a few more backup plans tohave when I get the chance to work on it. Questions: What would cause the ferrules to break free from the cane? They seemedto fit snugly when "dry" and I used Devcon 2-ton epoxy. I want to makesure the next time I seat them (or new ones) they won't pull free. I'mwondering if I didn't use enough epoxy? Any other tips or tricks I can use to separate these stuck ferrules? Theyare the "super swiss" type, the male being a single continuous diameterand the female has a rolled edge. Like I said before, an inch or less ofthe male is showing and most of that is the serrated portion that goesover the hexagonal cane. Most of the "solid" portion of the ferrule isinside of the female. I'm assuming I didn't "dress" the male ferrule enough so that the fitwas too tight. I've never worked with ferrules before so I really didn'thave a clue. Live and learn. Is there a guideline I can use to determinewhen I've dressed the ferrule enough, but not too much? Does the tarnish on the male part of the ferrule affect the fit? Should I just send the whole mess to a professional to get the job doneright? Thanks all. Bob PettiEndicott, NYbobpetti@vnet.ibm.com from aalin@juno.com Wed May 27 09:53:05 1998 10:52:50 EDT Subject: technical difficulties? _____________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.comOr call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654- 5866] from rmoon@ida.net Wed May 27 10:00:25 1998 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules You have yourself in a real bind, Bob. In my own opinion, which I willadmit is not shared by many makers, your first mistake was using Epoxyto seat your ferrules. I have too many failures with epoxies to everuse the material again. I have been using Urethane Bond (apparently nowno longer available) and find that I have never had a failure with it.Secondly ferrules can be removed by heating when UB is used. Yourproblem now, however, is that you have no easy way of separating thestuck ferrule. It would be much easier to do if the ferrule was stillon the rod. You could reseat the ferrule using UB and then try toseparate, but I think that his might be opening the way to additionalproblems. I think that I would seat the male ferrule on a piece ofscrap rod section that is long enough to be gripped firmly. Make asleeve that will fit over the male but will not go past the welt on thefemale. Of wood that is not too hard. clamp your male extension firmlyin the vise and try to tap the sleeve against the female welt. Youmight try a little WD40 on the joint applied an hour or so before youattempt to disengage.Although I know that some rod makers do not recommend a buffing wheelto dress ferrules, I have found it is a simple way to get good fit. Iuse a cloth wheel with jeweler's rouge applied to the wheel. I nevertry to get a full length fit of the male into the female. I alwaysleave it a hair short. The fit is very critical and the differencebetween too tight and sloppy is thinner than a gnat's whisker. Workvery slowly and trial fit very often.I hope that some others will respond, because this is an area that isrampant with diverse opinions. Someone else may disagree and may havesome valuable insights, so don't rush things. Good luckRalph from thramer@presys.com Wed May 27 12:15:53 1998 0000 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Bob Petti wrote: Help!!! Some of you might remember my popping in quickly awhile ago withsometung oil questions. Well, I finished the rod and it's a dandy fishinginstrument, quickly stealing my heart away from my graphite rods. Big problem this past Sunday. Here's the play-by-play. Take the rod out of the tube to assemble it and I find the male ferruledoesn't seem to fit as well as it did the last time I used it (this wasthe second time it's been fished). It's an REC nickel silver ferruleand I happened to notice the male was tarnished a bit. It finally slidinto place, but I did notice it going in farther than ever before. Fast forward a half a day and it's time to leave. I couldn't get the two sections to separate. Hmmm. A little more forceand the female ferrule came off it's station and now I'm really scared. At this point, I leave things alone and drive home. Thinking that coldmakes things contract (the Costanza Shrinkage Factor), I put the twostuck ferrules in a glass of ice water and let it sit for awhile.A quick drying and I get to pulling again, and now the male pops offthe rod blank and I'm left with two sections of rod with no ferrules,and two really stuck ferrules. I'm at a loss. A friend has suggested using heat instead of cold, hoping that thefemale will expand enough so I can get the male part out. He alsomentioned a wooden device as described in the Garrison book. What Ican't figure out is how to get a grip on the male portion, as only alittle bit is showing and it's completely smooth. I'll try the heatand the wood thing, but I was hoping for a few more backup plans tohave when I get the chance to work on it. Questions: What would cause the ferrules to break free from the cane? They seemedto fit snugly when "dry" and I used Devcon 2-ton epoxy. I want to makesure the next time I seat them (or new ones) they won't pull free. I'mwondering if I didn't use enough epoxy? Any other tips or tricks I can use to separate these stuck ferrules? Theyare the "super swiss" type, the male being a single continuous diameterand the female has a rolled edge. Like I said before, an inch or less ofthe male is showing and most of that is the serrated portion that goesover the hexagonal cane. Most of the "solid" portion of the ferrule isinside of the female. I'm assuming I didn't "dress" the male ferrule enough so that the fitwas too tight. I've never worked with ferrules before so I really didn'thave a clue. Live and learn. Is there a guideline I can use to determinewhen I've dressed the ferrule enough, but not too much? Does the tarnish on the male part of the ferrule affect the fit? Should I just send the whole mess to a professional to get the job doneright? Thanks all. Bob PettiEndicott, NYbobpetti@vnet.ibm.comHi Bob,The tarnish will most certainly affect the ferrule fit. Rods willusually 'swell' abit for a couple of months after fitting the ferrule.The rest of the group seems to have an unlimited faith in the ability ofepoxy to never let a ferrule slip. I have been promoting the use of apin against the current.So in order , start the ferrule fit a bit looser than you thinkappropriate and don't hesitate to refit the male slide AFTER cleaningthe female thoroghly. Use ferrule cement or epoxy , epoxy if the ferrulestation wan't cut very well. Pin the ferrule, there is no reason for aloose ferrule to ruin the trip then. It can always be repaired later.Unpinned epoxied ferrules in my opinion are living on borrowed time.When I machined my own ferrules I had no problems as the machine andtooling marks inside the ferrule I believe gave the epoxy more purchase.The ferrule you descibe is made of drawn tubing and as a result has avery smooth interior bore.A.J.Thramer from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Wed May 27 15:05:19 1998 mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1);Wed, 27May 1998 16:07:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules A little trick I learned in Fergus. Two people are needed. Get at either end of the rod. One person grabs the butt section with one hand and reaches forward to grab the tip with the other hand. The second person grabs the tip section and reaches forward to grab the butt section with the free hand. Pull straight at the same time and the problem is solved. I had two rods stick this week for 4 or so days. This trick worked like butter. As for the ferrules pulling off the blank, something in gluing went wrong I believe. Make sure you clean out the inside of the ferrules with denatured alcohol or something to get rid of residue. Also, from what I know, epoxy needs space to set up correctly. If the fit is too tight you could be in for some trouble. Sorry you had a bad day. Try again yourself and fish the hell out of the rod. Jon Lintvet8602 Wild Olive Drive Potomac, MD 20854(800) 836-7558(301) 340-0194 http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages4/jlintvet/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed May 27 16:57:30 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Stuck Ferrules Bob,Ralph's suggestions are good, especially refitting the male on a piece ofscrap,etc. Where I might disagree is on Devcon 2-ton-I've had no failuresin20 years. The use of heat to replace an epoxi glued ferrule can be a bittricky so I would use ferrule cement or tightbond 2 for refitting theferruleto scrap so you can remove it easily. Good luck.Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Wed May 27 16:57:39 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Young Para 15 Richard,Some of the fastest action rods I've built were flamed. Of coursethere'sno telling how fast they would have been if they'd been heat treatedanotherway-this ought to stir the list up some-opinions,opinions :- )Regards,Hank. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 27 18:26:55 1998 Thu, 28 May 1998 07:26:23 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Bob,Tricky. I'd try cleaning the ferrules realy well, washing them with solvent, gluing the ferrules back onto long pieces of dowel, leave them the dowels and pull apart from each other. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed May 27 18:52:11 1998 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules A piece of inner-tube rubber or one of the rubber-like pads used inkitchensto remove recalcitrant jar tops works great for gripping stuck ferrules.RTyree from rennyg@ibm.net Wed May 27 19:18:42 1998 out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA26844 for; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:18:39 GMT Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Another possibility is to apply heat to the female & cold to the maleferruleat the same time. Thus, for example, the female dipped in a container ofboiling hot water while spraying the exposed part of the male with cannedairpropellant should theoretically make the male shrink & the female expand. Inote that with the canned air upside down the actual liquid propellantcomesout which is extremely cold. The label on my can even warns aboutcausingfrostbite if the skin is exposed to the it! from cbogart@shentel.net Wed May 27 19:19:54 1998 UAA25372;Wed, 27 May 1998 20:19:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Richard You are right - I have had customers that have done bad things whentheir hands are wet - one of those jar opening pads work fine. But I havealsolearned to improvise in the field - the rubber lining around the trunk ofthecar works fine - hold the tip section against that and pull from the grip - itworks. Chris On Wed, 27 May 1998 19:51:31 EDT, Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: A piece of inner-tube rubber or one of the rubber-like pads used inkitchensto remove recalcitrant jar tops works great for gripping stuck ferrules.RTyree from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed May 27 19:27:26 1998 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Bob, glue the rod sections back into the ferrules, then get a buddy to dothe two man pull, ie, each of you cross arms so that you both have onehandon the upper section and one hand on the lower section, then pull. Thenpolish your ferrules just a little bit more with #2000 grit wet/dry paper. Always works for me.----------From: Bob Petti Subject: Stuck FerrulesDate: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 9:37 AM Help!!! Some of you might remember my popping in quickly awhile ago withsometung oil questions. Well, I finished the rod and it's a dandy fishinginstrument, quickly stealing my heart away from my graphite rods. Big problem this past Sunday. Here's the play-by-play. Take the rod out of the tube to assemble it and I find the male ferruledoesn't seem to fit as well as it did the last time I used it (this wasthe second time it's been fished). It's an REC nickel silver ferruleand I happened to notice the male was tarnished a bit. It finally slidinto place, but I did notice it going in farther than ever before. Fast forward a half a day and it's time to leave. I couldn't get the two sections to separate. Hmmm. A little more forceand the female ferrule came off it's station and now I'm really scared. At this point, I leave things alone and drive home. Thinking that coldmakes things contract (the Costanza Shrinkage Factor), I put the twostuck ferrules in a glass of ice water and let it sit for awhile.A quick drying and I get to pulling again, and now the male pops offthe rod blank and I'm left with two sections of rod with no ferrules,and two really stuck ferrules. I'm at a loss. A friend has suggested using heat instead of cold, hoping that thefemale will expand enough so I can get the male part out. He alsomentioned a wooden device as described in the Garrison book. What Ican't figure out is how to get a grip on the male portion, as only alittle bit is showing and it's completely smooth. I'll try the heatand the wood thing, but I was hoping for a few more backup plans tohave when I get the chance to work on it. Questions: What would cause the ferrules to break free from the cane? They seemedto fit snugly when "dry" and I used Devcon 2-ton epoxy. I want to makesure the next time I seat them (or new ones) they won't pull free. I'mwondering if I didn't use enough epoxy? Any other tips or tricks I can use to separate these stuck ferrules? Theyare the "super swiss" type, the male being a single continuous diameterand the female has a rolled edge. Like I said before, an inch or less ofthe male is showing and most of that is the serrated portion that goesover the hexagonal cane. Most of the "solid" portion of the ferrule isinside of the female. I'm assuming I didn't "dress" the male ferrule enough so that the fitwas too tight. I've never worked with ferrules before so I really didn'thave a clue. Live and learn. Is there a guideline I can use to determinewhen I've dressed the ferrule enough, but not too much? Does the tarnish on the male part of the ferrule affect the fit? Should I just send the whole mess to a professional to get the job doneright? Thanks all. Bob PettiEndicott, NYbobpetti@vnet.ibm.com from channer@hubwest.com Wed May 27 20:09:38 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A9869510174; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:10:30 MDT Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules At 09:37 AM 5/27/98 EDT, you wrote:Help!!! Some of you might remember my popping in quickly awhile ago with sometung oil questions. Well, I finished the rod and it's a dandy fishinginstrument, quickly stealing my heart away from my graphite rods. Big problem this past Sunday. Here's the play-by-play. Take the rod out of the tube to assemble it and I find the male ferruledoesn't seem to fit as well as it did the last time I used it (this wasthe second time it's been fished). It's an REC nickel silver ferruleand I happened to notice the male was tarnished a bit. It finally slidinto place, but I did notice it going in farther than ever before. Fast forward a half a day and it's time to leave. I couldn't get the two sections to separate. Hmmm. A little more forceand the female ferrule came off it's station and now I'm really scared. At this point, I leave things alone and drive home. Thinking that coldmakes things contract (the Costanza Shrinkage Factor), I put the twostuck ferrules in a glass of ice water and let it sit for awhile.A quick drying and I get to pulling again, and now the male pops off>therod blank and I'm left with two sections of rod with no ferrules,and two really stuck ferrules. I'm at a loss. A friend has suggested using heat instead of cold, hoping that thefemale will expand enough so I can get the male part out. He alsomentioned a wooden device as described in the Garrison book. What Ican't figure out is how to get a grip on the male portion, as only alittle bit is showing and it's completely smooth. I'll try the heatand the wood thing, but I was hoping for a few more backup plans tohave when I get the chance to work on it. Questions: What would cause the ferrules to break free from the cane? They seemedto fit snugly when "dry" and I used Devcon 2-ton epoxy. I want to makesure the next time I seat them (or new ones) they won't pull free. I'mwondering if I didn't use enough epoxy? Any other tips or tricks I can use to separate these stuck ferrules? Theyare the "super swiss" type, the male being a single continuous diameterand the female has a rolled edge. Like I said before, an inch or less ofthe male is showing and most of that is the serrated portion that goesover the hexagonal cane. Most of the "solid" portion of the ferrule isinside of the female. I'm assuming I didn't "dress" the male ferrule enough so that the fitwas too tight. I've never worked with ferrules before so I really didn'thave a clue. Live and learn. Is there a guideline I can use to determinewhen I've dressed the ferrule enough, but not too much? Does the tarnish on the male part of the ferrule affect the fit? Should I just send the whole mess to a professional to get the job doneright? Thanks all. Bob PettiEndicott, NYbobpetti@vnet.ibm.com Bob;I see you are getting all kinds of advise about how to get your ferrulesunstuck, all of which are words of wisdom. For my .02's worth, don't useany kind or blend of Devcon, they have changed their formulas and it justwon't work anymore, especially if you have an extremely tight cane toferrule fit. I find that if I make the ferrule to cane fit so that theferrule slides easily on to the cane , then use Accraglas beddingepoxy(made by Brownells, sold at gun shops)I have no problems. The first 2rods I built the ferrules pulled off all the sections at various timesuntil I re-glued this way, make sure all of the old epoxy is cleaned out ofthe ferrules first.Interestingly enough, my 7' 4wt. came apart and I usedCrazy glue gel and it has held just fine for about a year, this may be thestuff to use, I'll post if it fails this season. Good LuckJohn Channer from rmoon@ida.net Wed May 27 22:27:08 1998 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules boundary="------------69E25B1CB6DB83590D090A5A" --------------69E25B1CB6DB83590D090A5A Bob, I told you that there was a wide areea of disagreement. Somethings mentioned that I failed to mention are to clean the inside of theferrules where they fit on the rod shaft well. Also a little deliberatescoring of the inside of the ferrule will umprove adhesion. As Iadvised previously go slow and sift well the information you get. Don'tforget that if you ferrule a dowel or scrap rod section, you will haveto remove the ferrule again. Be sure your adhesive will release underheat. Ralph --------------69E25B1CB6DB83590D090A5A things mentioned that I failed to mention are to clean the inside of the deliberate Don't forget that if you ferrule a dowel or scrap rod section, you will under heat. Ralph --------------69E25B1CB6DB83590D090A5A-- from blueheron@wrtsun02.svidaho.net Wed May 27 23:17:55 1998 Subject: leonard rod Cold you offer some advice on values of leonard rods. I have a 9foot3piece with extra tip and both tips are in a alum. tube. The Leonardstamp is on the butt plate and it is in great cond. Any help would beappreciated. Thank you Harold Webb from saweiss@flash.net Wed May 27 23:59:31 1998 Subject: Varnish Yesterday I came across a gallon of "Last Line" or "Last In Line" sparvarnish in a hardware store. The salesperson told me that it was the bestspar varnish but they are discontinuing it because they don't sell enough ofit. No wonder, it is $49.99 for the gallon. Does anyone know somethingabout this stuff?Steve Weiss from ragnarig@integrityol.com Thu May 28 00:06:58 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A2A15480194; Wed, 27 May 1998 22:14:09 PDT Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Dear Bob Since the highest possible goal of the bamboo rodmaker is self-realizationand character development, you are well on your way- and after only onerod! I got on this thread late, as usual, so you've probably got that ferruleunstuck, reglued (or vice versa) and are out fishing it already. Just incase you haven't, here's my $0.02, and keep in mind that these aremore- or-less "last resort" measures, as any dealings with myself usuallyare:-) Disclaimer: The following is not a paid advertisement for Brownell's ofMontezuma, Iowa from rcurry@top.monad.net Thu May 28 05:01:41 1998 Subject: Re: Stuck Ferrules Chris Bogart wrote: Richard You are right - I have had customers that have done bad things whentheir hands are wet - one of those jar opening pads work fine. But I havealsolearned to improvise in the field - the rubber lining around the trunk ofthecarworks fine - hold the tip section against that and pull from the grip - itworks. Chris Chris,Be sure to have your fishing buddy lean casually against the opentrunklid while you do this.Reed from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Thu May 28 07:12:54 1998 Subject: Re: Scraper Balde Angles At 08:12 27/05/98 EDT, you wrote:What seems to be the most popular angle to put on your scraper bladethesedays guys?doug 37 degrees Don from thramer@presys.com Thu May 28 10:55:04 1998 0000 Subject: 'Carson' Planing Forms A friend purchased a set of 'push-pull' planing forms marked 'Carson'.They were reported to be made by Hoagy Carmichael. Any info for me toreport ?A.J.Thramer from Fishinstix@aol.com Thu May 28 10:58:28 1998 Subject: Ferrule location Hello,Can someone on the list please explain to me how to determine ferrulelocation.My pea brain is having a hard time with this. I am building my first rod,Wayne Catt's 7' 0" 2pc. (7042). I am using REC super Z ferrules.(13/64)There are stations posted from 0" to 75". This has got me confusedalready,because 75" is 6' 3", not 7'. What am I missing here? Why is it called a 7'rod. Is this to compensate for the tip top, buttcap, and ferrule gap orwhat?Now, maybe if I understand that, I can understand where the ferrule goes. I was to believe that the two completed rod sections, with ferrules, tiptop,and buttcap installed, should be the same length. If this is the case,than you are not just able to cut 75" in half and install the ferrules. Theferrules are not the same length, so you must compensate for this bymakingthe tip section shorter than the butt section before mounting theferrules.( Ithink). Does'nt this affect the action of the rod. Also, how do youcompensate Won't this change the length of the rod? Basically, what I am asking iswheredoes the damn ferrule go? Can anybody clear some of this up for me.Thanks inadvance, Mark Mills from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu May 28 11:23:01 1998 0500 Subject: Re: Ferrule location Mark,I don't have Wayne's book in front of me, so I'm just taking aneducatedguess here. (I've only read it about 10 or 20 times!) Wayne's tapers usuallyextend the length of the rod; so a 7' rod should have a length of 84". In alllikelihood, the taper is straight from 75 - 84", giving you a total length of84". One reason the taper you have may end at 75" is that most rodactions endjust above the cork, or approx. 9 - 10 inches from the butt end.The ferrule, then, goes in the middle, 42", less allowances for thedifference between the male ferrule seating length on the tip, and thefemaleferrule on the butt plus any reel seat butt cap. Wayne explains this veryclearlyin his book under a section called "Section Length" if I remembercorrectly.I can see how a difference of 9" would confuse you. If that 9 inchesisthe part under the cork and reel seat, that should clear it up for you. Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Fishinstix@aol.com wrote: Hello,Can someone on the list please explain to me how to determine ferrulelocation.My pea brain is having a hard time with this. I am building my first rod,Wayne Catt's 7' 0" 2pc. (7042). I am using REC super Z ferrules.(13/64)There are stations posted from 0" to 75". This has got me confusedalready,because 75" is 6' 3", not 7'. What am I missing here? Why is it called a7'rod. Is this to compensate for the tip top, buttcap, and ferrule gap orwhat?Now, maybe if I understand that, I can understand where the ferrule goes.I was to believe that the two completed rod sections, with ferrules, tiptop,and buttcap installed, should be the same length. If this is the case,than you are not just able to cut 75" in half and install the ferrules. Theferrules are not the same length, so you must compensate for this bymakingthe tip section shorter than the butt section before mounting theferrules.( Ithink). Does'nt this affect the action of the rod. Also, how do youcompensate ferrule.Won't this change the length of the rod? Basically, what I am asking iswheredoes the damn ferrule go? Can anybody clear some of this up for me.Thanks inadvance, Mark Mills from SalarFly@aol.com Thu May 28 12:00:30 1998 Subject: Power Fibers Now that I have had some time to thoroughly examine the5' blank I made, a curious thing is evident. I wanted to seeif planing .010 to .015 from the enamel side affected thestrength, so I proceeded to plane the pith side until thespline was that much oversized, then planed away theenamel side until it was correctly sized. One spline Iwent too far on the pith side, so I was able to only planeaway about .003 to .005 of the enamel side. Now that itis glued up, guess which spline is the weakest, and hasthe most pronounced jump? I am sure it is this spline because the other splines are very light colored, and this spline still has dark splotches from the flaming. All splinesare from the same culm, and all were flamed the same. Two things I can think of that explains this. Outside powerfibers are not the strongest, or flaming seriously weakenspower fibers, or both. Boy, am I opening a can of worms! Darryl Hayashida from rmoon@ida.net Thu May 28 12:07:18 1998 Subject: Re: 'Carson' Planing Forms A.J. Just shortly after the Garrison Book was published, there was a firmcalled the Great American Rod Company, that was apparantly allowed tomarket a number of the tools that Garrison made. They were named forCarmichael (Car) and Garrison (son). I bought one of the first. Infact I think that I have #12, but I'd have to check. The cost was $235(in the 70's). It is a very well made form and is somewhat longerthanmany of those on the market today. The only problem. it is not apush pull form, but a differential screw form, and the screws have apropensity to break and to be a little difficult to adjust in the rangeof screws at the 2.5" increments. I still use mine and love it.Ralph from rmoon@ida.net Thu May 28 12:08:22 1998 Subject: Re: 'Carson' Planing Forms I wonder. Has Carmichael resurrected the company and gone to push pullscrews?Ralph from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu May 28 12:39:29 1998 Subject: Re: Power Fibers I ask this in total, complete, and even acknowledged(!) ignorance, but is a"pronounced jump" always equated with the soft side, or can it sometimesperhaps be equated with the "strong" side? How do fewer fiber bundles adjto the pith, even if they are more "powerful," , equate with "weaker" butyet more abundant (denser?) fiber bundles towards the epidermis?Interesting observation! J. SniderAt 12:59 PM 5/28/98 EDT, you wrote: Now that I have had some time to thoroughly examine the5' blank I made, a curious thing is evident. I wanted to seeif planing .010 to .015 from the enamel side affected thestrength, so I proceeded to plane the pith side until thespline was that much oversized, then planed away theenamel side until it was correctly sized. One spline Iwent too far on the pith side, so I was able to only planeaway about .003 to .005 of the enamel side. Now that itis glued up, guess which spline is the weakest, and hasthe most pronounced jump? I am sure it is this spline because the other splines are very light colored, and this spline still has dark splotches from the flaming. All splinesare from the same culm, and all were flamed the same. Two things I can think of that explains this. Outside powerfibers are not the strongest, or flaming seriously weakenspower fibers, or both. Boy, am I opening a can of worms! Darryl Hayashida Jerry Snidere-mail: Sniderja@email.uc.eduhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from FISHWOOL@aol.com Thu May 28 12:50:23 1998 Subject: Re: Another theory shot to hell Don,I just built a straight taper 8' ,6 wgt with a 13/64ths ferrule. The more Ilearn the less I know for certain. I'm finding that declarative statementsabout the natural world tend 1) to stop conversation and 2) are generallydisproven down the line. Maybe I make too many declarative statements?:-).Regards, Hank. from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu May 28 13:01:44 1998 Subject: Re: 'Carson' Planing Forms A.J., I got the forms I'm using now from Hoagy in 1989 or 90. At that timehewas having them made by G. Catalano Inc. Roselle Park NJ. (Pat. #4405002)These have "push-pulls" (bolts not cap screws), the first forms I got fromhim, around 1979 or so, were the same as Ralph described. It's myunderstanding that Mr. Catalano is no longer alive so he may haveresurrected the original company. I'm sure he would be happy to fill youin on the details, if you need his phone # let me know.Gary H. At 11:02 AM 5/28/98 -0600, you wrote:I wonder. Has Carmichael resurrected the company and gone to push pullscrews?Ralph from SalarFly@aol.com Thu May 28 13:07:11 1998 Subject: Re: Power Fibers In a message dated 5/28/98 10:40:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: I ask this in total, complete, and even acknowledged(!) ignorance, but is a"pronounced jump" always equated with the soft side, or can itsometimesperhaps be equated with the "strong" side? How do fewer fiber bundlesadjto the pith, even if they are more "powerful," , equate with "weaker" butyet more abundant (denser?) fiber bundles towards the epidermis?Interesting observation! I suppose I could have had a strong spline that just happened to getglued up on the opposite side of the darker spline (less enamel sideplaned away), but my expectation was that the darker spline would be the strongest, and be on the outside of the curve when the blank jumped. Darryl from penr0295@uidaho.edu Thu May 28 13:37:39 1998 LAA09023 doing-bs Subject: Re: Ferrule Location I have just finished the proofreading for a couple of new pages at mywebsite. One details how to do ferrule positioning for a two-piece, theother page deals with ferrule position for a three-piece. Although Iproofread these pages numerous times, and am 97 percent sure the math iscorrect, I would appreciate anyone's comments as to suspicions ofproblems. I did just the intructions for a two piece rod to trim ablank last night. All turned out well, so I am pretty confident I did notinsert any typos into this set of instructions. There is also a link to my new page on grooving plane soles. This ispretty much completed except for some grammatical work and additionalelaboration. In any case, if you are trimming rod sections for the firsttime, do all the marking before you start any cutting, and quadruple- checkall the variables before getting out the saw. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/5262/twopiece.htm Thomas PenroseBend, OR from William_Lamberson@muccmail.missouri.edu Thu May 28 14:03:391998 Subject: Re: 'Carson' Planing Forms Nearly 20 years ago Hoagy Carmichael sent me a brochure describing Garrison style planing forms (as well as other tools) that were available through him. As I recall "Carson" was the name associated with them. Perhaps Carson was the machinist? I think I still have the brochure. I don't recall anything particular about them except that they were too expensive for me to purchase at the time. Bill Lamberson ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: 'Carson' Planing FormsAuthor: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu at MU-Internet A friend purchased a set of 'push-pull' planing forms marked 'Carson'. They were reported to be made by Hoagy Carmichael. Any info for me to report ?A.J.Thramer from ballard@zen.wes.army.mil Thu May 28 14:21:14 1998 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Re: Power Fibers Was this a nodeless rod? I've always considered the placementof nodes in a rod could influence spline placement. Jerry Ballard In a message dated 5/28/98 10:40:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,sniderja@email.uc.edu writes: I ask this in total, complete, and even acknowledged(!) ignorance, but isa"pronounced jump" always equated with the soft side, or can itsometimesperhaps be equated with the "strong" side? How do fewer fiber bundlesadjto the pith, even if they are more "powerful," , equate with "weaker"butyet more abundant (denser?) fiber bundles towards the epidermis?Interesting observation! I suppose I could have had a strong spline that just happened to getglued up on the opposite side of the darker spline (less enamel sideplaned away), but my expectation was that the darker spline would be the strongest, and be on the outside of the curve when the blank jumped. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Thu May 28 14:43:25 1998 Subject: Re: Power Fibers In a message dated 5/28/98 12:22:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,ballard@zen.wes.army.mil writes: Was this a nodeless rod? I've always considered the placementof nodes in a rod could influence spline placement. Nope. I never have done a nodeless rod yet. That might changein the future....Darryl from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu May 28 15:40:27 1998 ; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:38:35 +1200 Subject: Re: Ferrule location Mark , Being of similar sized brain I use an aid that I picked up from someforgotten source , probably this group , at some time in the past . My acknowledgement to that forgotten source . I use a piece of 2" by 1 " timber a little longer then each rod section andmark on it the exact locations of ferrules , guides , handle etc along theedge of the timber. As i have made only two piece rods I put the tipsection on one edge and but section on the other and can be sure they areboth of the same length . I mark the ferrule locations , size and depth etcand then are able to take this out as a guide before doing any cuttingbinding etc . It takes a bit of time to make the guide but once it is doneall the calculations and measurements are in one place and permanentlyrecorded rather then on scraps of paper that can be lost. It is also usefulto be able to place the rod blank against the template to give that littlebit of reassurance before picking up the saw . Iank At 11:57 AM 28/05/98 EDT, you wrote:Hello,Can someone on the list please explain to me how to determine ferrulelocation. deleted on't this change the length of the rod? Basically, what I am asking iswheredoes the damn ferrule go? Can anybody clear some of this up for me.Thanks inadvance, Mark Mills Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email inak@ts.co.nz from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu May 28 15:54:02 1998 0500 Subject: Re: Ferrule Location Thomas,Many you really have a way of making things visually clear. I thinkalmost anyone would understand how to get sections the right length iftheyfollowed your instructions to the letter! Now, if you would just do anaddition to your pages on how to get my #@$% binder to run true, with nobends, twists or kinks.....No, on second thought I think I'll make one of the binders TomSmithwickdescribed a few weeks ago.Thanks for a great page!Harry Boyd Thomas Penrose wrote: I have just finished the proofreading for a couple of new pages at mywebsite. One details how to do ferrule positioning for a two-piece, theother page deals with ferrule position for a three-piece. Although Iproofread these pages numerous times, and am 97 percent sure the mathiscorrect, I would appreciate anyone's comments as to suspicions ofproblems. I did just the intructions for a two piece rod to trim ablank last night. All turned out well, so I am pretty confident I did notinsert any typos into this set of instructions. There is also a link to my new page on grooving plane soles. This ispretty much completed except for some grammatical work and additionalelaboration. In any case, if you are trimming rod sections for the firsttime, do all the marking before you start any cutting, and quadruple- checkall the variables before getting out the saw. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/5262/twopiece.htm Thomas PenroseBend, OR from dryfly@erols.com Thu May 28 16:20:14 1998 Subject: Re: Ferrule Location Tom Thanks for the great web page. I'm just getting ready to ferrule my firstthree piece rod by myself and your instructions and pictures should helptremendously. Bob Thomas Penrose wrote: I have just finished the proofreading for a couple of new pages at mywebsite. One details how to do ferrule positioning for a two-piece, theother page deals with ferrule position for a three-piece. Although Iproofread these pages numerous times, and am 97 percent sure the mathiscorrect, I would appreciate anyone's comments as to suspicions ofproblems. I did just the intructions for a two piece rod to trim ablank last night. All turned out well, so I am pretty confident I did notinsert any typos into this set of instructions. There is also a link to my new page on grooving plane soles. This ispretty much completed except for some grammatical work and additionalelaboration. In any case, if you are trimming rod sections for the firsttime, do all the marking before you start any cutting, and quadruple- checkall the variables before getting out the saw. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/5262/twopiece.htm Thomas PenroseBend, OR from dpeaston@wzrd.com Thu May 28 16:24:54 1998 mail.wzrd.com(8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05833; Thu, 28 May 1998 17:21:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Power Fibers At 01:35 PM 5/28/98 -0400, Jerry Snider wrote:I ask this in total, complete, and even acknowledged(!) ignorance, but is a"pronounced jump" always equated with the soft side, or can itsometimesperhaps be equated with the "strong" side? How do fewer fiber bundlesadjto the pith, even if they are more "powerful," , equate with "weaker" butyet more abundant (denser?) fiber bundles towards the epidermis?Interesting observation!J. Snider Darryl, A fairly simple appoach to the question would be to measure thedeflectioncaused by equal weights suspended from each of the six flats of yoursection. I to am suspicious of the assumption that the "jump" is indicativeof the weak side. We would all know more if you did a deflection test. -Doug Easton At 12:59 PM 5/28/98 EDT, you wrote: Now that I have had some time to thoroughly examine the5' blank I made, a curious thing is evident. I wanted to seeif planing .010 to .015 from the enamel side affected thestrength, so I proceeded to plane the pith side until thespline was that much oversized, then planed away theenamel side until it was correctly sized. One spline Iwent too far on the pith side, so I was able to only planeaway about .003 to .005 of the enamel side. Now that itis glued up, guess which spline is the weakest, and hasthe most pronounced jump? I am sure it is this spline because the other splines are very light colored, and this spline still has dark splotches from the flaming. All splinesare from the same culm, and all were flamed the same. Two things I can think of that explains this. Outside powerfibers are not the strongest, or flaming seriously weakenspower fibers, or both. Boy, am I opening a can of worms! Darryl Hayashida Jerry Snidere-mail: Sniderja@email.uc.eduhttp://www.biology.uc.edu/snider/jerry.htm from sats@gte.net Thu May 28 17:25:55 1998 Subject: Re: Power Fibers RAA19870 Sir D, Two things I can think of that explains this. Outside powerfibers are not the strongest, or flaming seriously weakenspower fibers, or both. Interesting. There's another thought too. The inside may be more"brittle,"(not a good word for what I'm trying to say.) It may have more stiffness,butalso may be the first to break. I've had this happen when I took a rod downtoofar. Unfortunately I'd done some other things to the rod that colored theprocess. The rod seemed to "work" perfectly, until I really laid into it.then it snapped, like a match, at the stripper guide. Boy, am I opening a can of worms! I'm glad you do. I learn a lot from your posts. Often, new ideas lead thatmein new directions. Thanks for trying things that haven't been talked aboutbefore. Terry K. --Safety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from penr0295@uidaho.edu Thu May 28 17:57:35 1998 PAA20119 doing-bs Subject: Change to ferrule webpages Something I decided to change regarding my ferrule instruction pages (foranyone who may have already printed it out) is that instead of waitinguntil the end of the trimming process to glue on the tiptop(s), thisshould be done just after the end of the tip section has been trimmed atits first station marking. By putting the tiptop on first, and thenmaking all measurements from the end of the tiptop, you avoid having totrim any of the rod's intended taper from the tip to compensate for the1/4 to 3/8 inch that the tiptop adds to the length of the tip section. Itoccurred to me that this would probably be more appropriate. I havealready made this change to the pages. Thomas PenroseBend, OR from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri May 29 04:22:24 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA31282 +0200 Subject: Sv: Ferrule Location EAA21898 Thomas wrote Now, if you would just do anaddition to your pages on how to get my #@$% binder to run true, with nobends, twists or kinks..... Thomas If you have a Garrison type binder, do yourself the favour of reading ChrisBogarts article on Jerrys page about tuning the binder. It'll work miracles! regards Carsten from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 29 10:41:02 1998 1997)) id86256613.00558B18 ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:34:21 -0500 Subject: Bamboo Modulus Darryl, Did you, or anyone else out there ever do any testing on bamboo followingthat thread of a few weeks ago? -Ed from SalarFly@aol.com Fri May 29 11:28:24 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 8:43:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes: Did you, or anyone else out there ever do any testing on bamboo followingthat thread of a few weeks ago? Not yet. I'm trying to set up a test apparatus to do so. Some thingsI'm trying to decide on is should I set it up to test a raw strip, ora rod section, what king of deflections will I get, so what type ofdial gauge should I buy, etc. I also have to finish a rod, so I don'thave a lot of time. Darryl Hayashida from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 29 12:59:58 1998 1997)) id86256613.006243B1 ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:53:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus Darryl, much as a hex rod section. It's not exact - one must make allowances forglue, lack of uniform fiber density in a structural construction, etc. 10,000,000 psi modulus, the deflection will be on the order of 0.030inches. My only word of caution: don't test a tapered section. It makes themath more cumbersome. If you feel compelled to do that anyway, sayyou'recurious about the cane in a completed rod, I'd be glad to come up with theequations for you or give you the references for you do do the math. Best regards,-Ed SalarFly@aol.com on 05/29/98 11:27:37 AM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 8:43:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes:Did you, or anyone else out there ever do any testing on bamboo followingthat thread of a few weeks ago? Not yet. I'm trying to set up a test apparatus to do so. Some thingsI'm trying to decide on is should I set it up to test a raw strip, ora rod section, what king of deflections will I get, so what type ofdial gauge should I buy, etc. I also have to finish a rod, so I don'thave a lot of time.Darryl Hayashida from SalarFly@aol.com Fri May 29 14:36:51 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 11:03:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes: My only word of caution: don't test a tapered section. It makes themath more cumbersome. If you feel compelled to do that anyway, sayyou'recurious about the cane in a completed rod, I'd be glad to come up withtheequations for you or give you the references for you do do the math. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you do both? I'd like to see whatI could come up with, but it's always nice to be able to check to see ifwhat I'm doing is right. Darryl from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 29 14:42:22 1998 1997)) id86256613.006BA520 ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:35:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus Will see what I can do over the weekend. Can you read a Word 7.0attachment?-Ed SalarFly@aol.com on 05/29/98 02:36:15 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 11:03:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes:My only word of caution: don't test a tapered section. It makes themath more cumbersome. If you feel compelled to do that anyway, sayyou'recurious about the cane in a completed rod, I'd be glad to come up withtheequations for you or give you the references for you do do the math. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you do both? I'd like to see whatI could come up with, but it's always nice to be able to check to see ifwhat I'm doing is right.Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Fri May 29 15:42:06 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 12:45:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,eestlow@srminc.com writes: Will see what I can do over the weekend. Can you read a Word 7.0attachment? Yes I can. Thanks in advance.Darryl from MartynE@aol.com Fri May 29 15:49:56 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 12:34:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: Not yet. I'm trying to set up a test apparatus to do so. Some thingsI'm trying to decide on is should I set it up to test a raw strip, ora rod section, what king of deflections will I get, so what type ofdial gauge should I buy, etc. I also have to finish a rod, so I don'thave a lot of time. Darryl Hayashida As a mechanical engineer I would recommend test a standardized sectionofknown dimensions. Then the numbers derived from this could be applied toanysection. I don't know if you are an engineer or not. If you have anyquestions I would be glad to offer suggestions. Martyn from MartynE@aol.com Fri May 29 15:59:13 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 4:43:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: eestlow@srminc.com writes: Will see what I can do over the weekend. Can you read a Word 7.0attachment? Yes I can. Thanks in advance.Darryl I'm sorry I jumped into this thread and responded to the wrong person. Butnonetheless I'm also interested in the results. Since I have this idea todesign a rod myself and then build it. I suspect that what is technicallycorrect is esthetically (casting wise) a nightmare! Maybe I'm wrong, doesanyone have any thoughts on this? Martyn from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 29 16:02:22 1998 1997)) id86256613.0072F8C5 ; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:55:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus Martyn, Right on! My thoughts exactly, except if one is checking the modulus of thecane in an existing rod. And of course this is a composite modulus of thecane and the glue and the varnish, etc. As it happens, I'm an aerospace engineer. I worked several years in thewind tunnel model test business as a design engineer. I left that industryseveral years ago, but still get jazzed about "chasing stresses" as we usedto call it. Your critical eye will assure that I don't propagate anymisinformation! Best regards,-Ed Estlow MartynE@aol.com on 05/29/98 03:49:15 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 12:34:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites:Not yet. I'm trying to set up a test apparatus to do so. Some thingsI'm trying to decide on is should I set it up to test a raw strip, ora rod section, what king of deflections will I get, so what type ofdial gauge should I buy, etc. I also have to finish a rod, so I don'thave a lot of time. Darryl HayashidaAs a mechanical engineer I would recommend test a standardized sectionofknown dimensions. Then the numbers derived from this could be applied toanysection. I don't know if you are an engineer or not. If you have anyquestions I would be glad to offer suggestions.Martyn from eestlow@srminc.com Fri May 29 16:09:37 1998 1997)) id86256613.0073A13B ; Fri, 29 May 1998 16:02:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus More thoughts Martyn. Forgive my ignorance. You may already know ofJerry'swebsite and the links there to Wayne Cattanach's discussion on rod mathandalso the link to The Physics of Flycasting. It's a wonderfully complexbatch of applied math, if you're a math hobbyist. If your goal is to designa rod from a purely engineering point of view (design requirementsfollowed challenge, as the physics behind a fly cast is so complex. Best regards,-Ed MartynE@aol.com on 05/29/98 03:58:04 PM Please respond to rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus In a message dated 5/29/98 4:43:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites:eestlow@srminc.com writes: Will see what I can do over the weekend. Can you read a Word 7.0attachment? Yes I can. Thanks in advance.DarrylI'm sorry I jumped into this thread and responded to the wrong person. Butnonetheless I'm also interested in the results. Since I have this idea todesign a rod myself and then build it. I suspect that what is technicallycorrect is esthetically (casting wise) a nightmare! Maybe I'm wrong, doesanyone have any thoughts on this?Martyn from anglport@con2.com Fri May 29 17:10:02 1998 Subject: Design Martyn,If you want to get an engineer's view of what's gone before, youshould probably get hold of Carmichael-and-Garrison's "Master's Guide....".If you read it with a critical view to fine-tune or extract info, you'llprobably save yourself inventing the wheel. You may in fact be able to pokesome WIDE holes in the prevailing theory and move the "science" forwardconsiderably! Please keep us informed of your progress. Don't bethin- skinned about responses. Some of us react in the right spirit but wearen't necessarily circumspect in the way we express ourselves.I have a feeling you're going to be a real asset to the group.Thanks forjoining in!Art from saltwein@swbell.net Fri May 29 19:12:17 1998 gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net TAA00423 Subject: adjusting Milward binder` Someone mentioned on the list yesterday that Chris Bogart had an articleon Jerry's page that dealt with fine tuning a Milward binder. I went looking and couldn't find it. Could someone help? Thanks and Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from tbeckfam@pacbell.net Fri May 29 19:54:29 1998 mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA20158 for Subject: Re: adjusting Milward binder` Steve wrote: Someone mentioned on the list yesterday that Chris Bogart had an articleon Jerry's page that dealt with fine tuning a Milward binder. I went looking and couldn't find it. Could someone help? Thanks and Regards, SteveIndependence, MO The Article is on tuning the Garrison binder. Traver Becker from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri May 29 20:20:46 1998 Subject: Re: Re: 'Carson' Planing Forms A.J.Some 20 years ago I had a set of planing forms made on the Garrison longformmode-I'm still using them, broken screws and all. At the same time Ipurchasedthe 60 deg wooden form plus several scarfing blocks all from the GreatAmerican Rod Co.(I believe that's the name). The forms all had "Carson" on'emwhich I assumed was the combo of Carmichael and Garrison. I don't knowifsomeone is now making the Carson form or if that was an old one.Regards,Hank. from MasjC1@aol.com Fri May 29 20:22:37 1998 Subject: Ferrule Position Thomas, Thanks for a great addition to your web page. I hope to glue up my first rodthis weekend and so your instructions on ferrule placement could not havecomeat a better time. Thanks. Mark Cole from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri May 29 20:50:33 1998 Subject: Re: Re: Bamboo Modulus Hey gang,Aren't we trying to quantify the unquantifiable? The test strip from oneside of the culm won't test the same as one from the other side. And doesthemath mimic nature's reality, whatever that is? Anyway, carry on-I'll beinterested in the results.Regards,Hank. from selez@ibm.net Fri May 29 22:09:15 1998 out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA10056 for; Sat, 30 May 1998 03:09:12 GMT Subject: Phillipine Cane Hi....I am slowly collecting my supplies for building my first cane rod,to make a long story short, while browsing through a Cost Plus store here in SoCal, I stumbledupon a stock of large culms of bamboo. The culms are just over 8 feetlong, and3.5" in diameter at the base, with a thickness of a little over a 1/4"throughout.The price sticker indicated it was from the Phillipines (and was$13.00). Ifigured I couldn't go wrong for a first culm to practice straighteningnodes,planing, flaming/heat treating ect. However, was curious to know ifthere wasany rod building usefullness to this type of cane. Beside the cosmeticflawsit appears to have fairly dense fibers, is well dried, but given my nonexperiencewouln't know if it would at all be worth the time to build a rod with. Any thoughts? from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Fri May 29 22:34:30 1998 Subject: Re: Another theory shot to hell At 13:49 28/05/98 EDT, you wrote:Don,I just built a straight taper 8' ,6 wgt with a 13/64ths ferrule. The moreIlearn the less I know for certain. I'm finding that declarative statementsabout the natural world tend 1) to stop conversation and 2) are generallydisproven down the line. Maybe I make too many declarative statements?:-).Regards, Hank. Hank, Know exactly what you mean - just when you think you got some of thisstufffigured out along comes more reality to kick you in the butt. Still, thelearning curve is starting to flatten after 60 rods - maybe by the time Iget to be genuine old fart and a couple of hundred rods done - the learningcurve will be flat - least in my own mind. Then I will be just anopinionated old fart. Don from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Fri May 29 23:57:15 1998 ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:56:55 +1200 Subject: Re: Phillipine Cane Just a thought if this bamboo is no good for rods it may be ideal formakingrod tubes similar to the classic Hardy tubes . You need a long wide drill totake out the internodal dams , then plug one end with a flush wooden plugand ideally a leather cap for the other end but a wooden plug with a knobonthe end would do. Then a couple of coats of varnish , and a few smartwrappings if you feel inclined ( they also help to hold the ends ) and thisis a rod tube which really sets off a cane rod ..Hardy and Farlow both usedto flame some of their bamboo rod tubes and used brass fittings on theends . Iank At 08:07 PM 29/05/98 -0700, you wrote:Hi....I am slowly collecting my supplies for building my first cane rod,to make a long story short, while browsing through a Cost Plus store here in SoCal, I stumbledupon a stock of large culms of bamboo. The culms are just over 8 feetlong, and3.5" in diameter at the base, with a thickness of a little over a 1/4"throughout.The price sticker indicated it was from the Phillipines (and was$13.00). I Ian Kearney phone 0064 03 5445556104 Champion Road Fax 0064 03 5440374Richmond New Zealand email inak@ts.co.nz from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sat May 30 00:31:34 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id AB5F786026A; Fri, 29 May 1998 22:38:39 PDT Subject: Re: Another theory shot to hell - maybe . Then I will be just anopinionated old fart. Don Dear Don I'm already there and I know virtually nothing. Would you like me to saveyou a seat on the park bench? Davy PS Do you live in B.C.? from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sat May 30 02:09:13 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id A2576F7027C; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:16:39 PDT Subject: Re: Re: Bamboo Modulus vs. Gamera Hey gang,Aren't we trying to quantify the unquantifiable? The test strip fromoneside of the culm won't test the same as one from the other side. And doesthemath mimic nature's reality, whatever that is? Anyway, carry on-I'll beinterested in the results.Regards,Hank. Dear Hank You've got an excellent point. Cane is not homogenous. No two bambooculms, let alone splines, are going to be indentical. Will they be closeenough to make these kind of tests valid? Probably depends howambitiousthe goals of the test are. My intestinal rumblings tell me that a great rodwill not be a reasonable goal of such research but that a good one mightbe,and you've got to hit it on the green to make a hole-in-one, right? What I'm curious about are the synergies (my son taught me that word andIhad to slip it in) between- at minimum- the characteristics of thematerial(which are variable and may be quantifiable to whatever extent if you haveaccess to a very accurate scale, a probe hygrometer andhow-far- do-you-want-to-go-with-this) and the structure, which is whatourobsession with tapers is all about. whenbuilt with bamboo of varying structure, weight etc. as opposed to "classicdry fly" tapers with their contrasting characteristics. Can thisinformation help me to select the optimum culm for a specific type ofrod? Then you flame them. Does all of this really matter? Probably not. As long as our engineerfriends are working out the unworkoutables of rodmaking, they cannot bedevising new weapons of mass destruction for the Afghans and Jerry willbefulfilling his obligation to the gentlemen in the dark glasses who gave himthat suitcase full of twenties to start this list. Davy from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sat May 30 03:32:13 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA50814 +0200 Subject: Sv: adjusting Milward binder` DAA02377 Steve wrote: Someone mentioned on the list yesterday that Chris Bogart had an articleon Jerry's page that dealt with fine tuning a Milward binder. I went looking and couldn't find it. Could someone help? Thanks and Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Hi Steve in fact it was the Garrison Binder. URL:http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tips.htmlthen Tips, Tools and FAQ's , then Garrison Binder FAQ. regards Carsten from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sat May 30 03:32:14 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAB50814 +0200 Subject: Sv: Re: Bamboo Modulus vs. Gamera DAA01763 --->Then you flame them. Does all of this really matter? Probably not. As long as our engineerfriends are working out the unworkoutables of rodmaking, they cannot bedevising new weapons of mass destruction for the Afghans and Jerry willbefulfilling his obligation to the gentlemen in the dark glasses who gavehimthat suitcase full of twenties to start this list. Davy Davy IMnotsoHO You are right on. We all have our different approaches to thisweirdan wonderous hobby of ours, according to abilities and temper. Engineerslikeengineering, complicated maths and spreadsheets, carpenters like planingand thefeel of the cane, each to his own. Me? - I like building the blasted things,although they seldom come out exactly as intended, whatever that is.There isalways something, that could be just a tiny bit better/different. Off I goagainin the search of the holy grail - that perfect rod. Yes, I know - I'll never get there, but oh boy, do I have some good timesduringtravelling. And some surprises as well. To me it is the process. And, I must admit, I feel a kind of pride when thatpiece of cane is finally tranformed into a rod. Hell, I even fish the things.Then comes along somebody on this list, telling me to try a XXX rod.Somebodytell me, does it ever stop? I dont need all these rods! On the other hand, Sir D's changes to the 7`#4 looks alright. Wonder how itcompares to a PHY Perfectionist? And on and on and on.................. regards, Carsten from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat May 30 07:01:22 1998 Sat, 30 May 1998 20:01:04 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: heat treating Some of you may be interested in heat treating (I make a joke, no?) A little while back I mentioned heat treating cane using my kitchen oven.My rods are nodeless and I heat treat by sawing the cane between the nodes, splitting, turning on the oven and getting it to temp, placing the cane strips on a tray and heating @ 200 centigrade for 20-25 mins.When I mentioned this the first time it was suggested 200c was too high rest of the appliances in my house are faulty to some extent so why not the oven too, what ever the true temp it works for me, but it's bothered me not knowing sort of like wondering *exactly* when does the fridge light switch off. Anyhow a friend who works at a laboritory brought around a digital hightemp thermometer and tested the oven. The results are the oven rises to 212c then switches off and the tempfalls to 188c then back to 212c etc etc, which makes the avg temp 200c.The colour of the cane after 20 min is med honey, 25 mins dark honey, 30 mins treacle and smoking. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from dmanders@ccinet.ab.ca Sat May 30 07:01:48 1998 Subject: Re: Another theory shot to hell At 22:43 29/05/98 -0700, you wrote:- maybe . Then I will be just anopinionated old fart. Don Dear Don I'm already there and I know virtually nothing. Would you like me to saveyou a seat on the park bench? Davy PS Do you live in B.C.? Davy, Nope, I'm on the east side of the rocks in Rocky Mountain House, Alberta. Don PS. Maybe we'll need a lot of park benches. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sat May 30 09:04:03 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA56710 +0200 Subject: Sv: heat treating JAA00914 Tony wrote Some of you may be interested in heat treating (I make a joke, no?) A little while back I mentioned heat treating cane using my kitchen oven.My rods are nodeless and I heat treat by sawing the cane between the nodes, splitting, turning on the oven and getting it to temp, placing the cane strips on a tray and heating @ 200 centigrade for 20-25 mins. Tony I never expected You to make a joke, being, as You are, a deeply serious andnon-humerous person :-) Your method, which I admittedly have triedmyself withgood results, is utterly unscientific. I am very dissappointed in You. If Youwant to regain my respect, run a test along the following lines: Next timeYourkitchen is to produce a roastbeef or some other oven cooked large lump ofbeef,how about putting Your pieces of cane into the oven at the same time. Goodreasons to try out this method could be saving energy, and the possibilityofthe rod automaticaly being impregnated at the same time. Now all we'vegottafigure out is the problem about finding the right glue. Your ideas andcommentsare welcomed:-) regards, Carsten from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat May 30 10:42:37 1998 Sat, 30 May 1998 23:42:19 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung) Subject: Re: Sv: heat treating wugate.wustl.edu idKAA11502 If You want to regain my respect, run a test along the following lines: Next time Your kitchen is to produce a roastbeef or some other oven cookedlarge lump of beef, how about putting Your pieces of cane into the oven at thesame time. Good reasons to try out this method could be saving energy, and the possibility of the rod automaticaly being impregnated at the same time. Now all we've gotta figure out is the problem about finding the right glue. regards, CarstenI guess you could use the gravey, it'd be protien based. ;-) Tony/***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.htmlThe Australian connection A computer without windows is like a fish without a bicycle /***********************************************************************/ from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sat May 30 14:56:13 1998 (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA29464 +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: heat treating OAA03840 CarstenI guess you could use the gravey, it'd be protien based. ;-) Tony Tony Ill buy that. but could this be termed as a kind of bait fishing? The rodwouldsmell rather ripe within a short time. Not quite cricket, I think. :-) Carsten from rcurry@top.monad.net Sat May 30 15:39:27 1998 Subject: Re: heat treating Tony Young wrote:me not knowing sort of like wondering *exactly* when does the fridgelight switch off.Tony,The fridge light switches off???Reed from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat May 30 15:51:10 1998 (5.0.1458.49) Subject: RE: heat treating there's a light in there?? ----------From: Reed F. Curry[SMTP:rcurry@top.monad.net] Sent: Saturday, May 30, 1998 1:31 PM Subject: Re: heat treating Tony Young wrote:me not knowing sort of like wondering *exactly* when does the fridgelight switch off.Tony,The fridge light switches off???Reed from rcurry@top.monad.net Sat May 30 16:30:54 1998 Subject: Binders I have only briefly played with a Garrison binder, but, from looking atthe various photos and drawings of Garrison, Milward, and Cromptonbinders, I would like to state that the Carlson binder has advantagesover all of these.I make this audacious statement with great hesitation but for thefollowing reasons:1/ Sam's binder suspends the rod section on the binder cord in ahorizontal plane. There is no pulling downward against metal.2/ The Carlson binder utilizes a foot pedal and slave pulley tomoderate tension at any moment, as you work.3/ It is made from simple and inexpensive components - wood,cheappulleys, and some basic plumbing iron pipes and T connections. I'll bring photos to Grayling (still no scanner access).Best regards,Reed from richjez@enteract.com Sat May 30 16:46:23 1998 0000 (147.126.253.18) Subject: Re: Binders Reed, I have a snappy that digitises camcorder images. I will bring it, mycamcorder, and my laptop to Grayling. This will be avaliable to anyone else that wants something digitized too. Rich Jezioro At 05:22 PM 5/30/98 -0400, you wrote:I have only briefly played with a Garrison binder, but, from looking atthe various photos and drawings of Garrison, Milward, and Cromptonbinders, I would like to state that the Carlson binder has advantagesover all of these.I make this audacious statement with great hesitation but for thefollowing reasons:1/ Sam's binder suspends the rod section on the binder cord in ahorizontal plane. There is no pulling downward against metal.2/ The Carlson binder utilizes a foot pedal and slave pulley tomoderate tension at any moment, as you work.3/ It is made from simple and inexpensive components - wood,cheappulleys, and some basic plumbing iron pipes and T connections. I'll bring photos to Grayling (still no scanner access).Best regards,Reed *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro @ /||/______/_||_________________________________________|| /\ / \ > > from eestlow@srminc.com Sat May 30 16:56:12 1998 1997)) id86256614.0077E3BC ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:49:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus vs. Gamera Davy and Hank, Davy! Ouch! That's why I got out of the aerospace business all those yearsago and went into the medical device business. Now, I help people playwiththeir computers for a living. Hank, I'll echo Davy and say you do have a good point. (My personal pointwasn't to enhance the rod design gig. I was just curious from a scientificpoint of view if anyone might have done the testing.) proportional to modulus of elasticity. Deflection represents loaded energy,release of said energy flings (I resisted using the term launch - seeparagraph above) the line. There isn't any reason to worry about taper tosuch precision as thousandths of an inch if the modulus varies by 10 or 20or 30%. So if you're interested in taper at all, you need to be interestedin modulus, maybe not in the absolute value, but in the consistency. This,I suspect is the real reason rods of the same taper differ so much.(Incredible grasp of the obvious, eh?) Besides, I bet not many stay in this gig for very long just for the "cheap"rods. I suspect they like to play with one or another aspect of it. Lookingat the math is just an aspect of how I pursue rods. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from dryfly@erols.com Sat May 30 19:02:56 1998 0400 Subject: Ice Cold Ferrules Good day on the stream today, lots of fish hit those ants but when I was done I couldn't get my rod apart, ferrules were stuck and even with the help of another fisherman we could not get the rod apart. Brought the rod home and put the ferrule on ice (rubbed the top of the female with ice for a few minutes) and when it was nice and cold I tried again and they popped like Champagne. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat May 30 20:37:38 1998 0500 Subject: Re: Binders Reed,There are lots of us with good scanners, including me. I'm sure anyofuswould be glad to do the scan if we had a copy of a photo. By copying it andmailing it to someone with a scanner you might be doing us all a greatservice.Inany case, if you get it digitized at Grayrock, please post a picture to thelistorto a page somewhere. Grayrock is 1500+ miles from home, so maybe nextyear...Harry BoydReed F. Curry wrote: I have only briefly played with a Garrison binder, but, from looking atthe various photos and drawings of Garrison, Milward, and Cromptonbinders, I would like to state that the Carlson binder has advantagesover all of these.I make this audacious statement with great hesitation but for thefollowing reasons:1/ Sam's binder suspends the rod section on the binder cord in ahorizontal plane. There is no pulling downward against metal.2/ The Carlson binder utilizes a foot pedal and slave pulley tomoderate tension at any moment, as you work.3/ It is made from simple and inexpensive components - wood,cheappulleys, and some basic plumbing iron pipes and T connections. I'll bring photos to Grayling (still no scanner access).Best regards,Reed from channer@hubwest.com Sat May 30 21:15:10 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AD8EBC2018A; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:16:46 MDT Subject: Re: Binders At 05:22 PM 5/30/98 -0400, you wrote:I have only briefly played with a Garrison binder, but, from looking atthe various photos and drawings of Garrison, Milward, and Cromptonbinders, I would like to state that the Carlson binder has advantagesover all of these.I make this audacious statement with great hesitation but for thefollowing reasons:1/ Sam's binder suspends the rod section on the binder cord in ahorizontal plane. There is no pulling downward against metal.2/ The Carlson binder utilizes a foot pedal and slave pulley tomoderate tension at any moment, as you work.3/ It is made from simple and inexpensive components - wood,cheappulleys, and some basic plumbing iron pipes and T connections. I'll bring photos to Grayling (still no scanner access).Best regards,Reed Reed;Are you describing a Garrison type binder using a foot pedal/pulleycombination for tension instead of hanging weight from the drivecord?????????? Why does this sound like a stupendous/obvious idea thatInever thought of. One more on the mile long list. Please describe in moredetail, if possible. I won't be able to make it to Grayrock this year, oruntil I win the Lottery, and am curious about this system, even tho I thinkI finally have my binder working fairly well. Thanks for the thoughtprovocation. John Channer from MartynE@aol.com Sat May 30 21:37:32 1998 Subject: Re: Design In a message dated 5/29/98 6:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Art writes: Martyn,If you want to get an engineer's view of what's gone before, youshould probably get hold of Carmichael-and-Garrison's "Master'sGuide....".If you read it with a critical view to fine-tune or extract info, you'llprobably save yourself inventing the wheel. You may in fact be able topokesome WIDE holes in the prevailing theory and move the "science" forwardconsiderably! Please keep us informed of your progress. Don't bethin-skinned about responses. Some of us react in the right spirit but wearen't necessarily circumspect in the way we express ourselves.I have a feeling you're going to be a real asset to the group.Thanks for joining in!Art Thanks I will have to find a copy. Does anyone out there know where I maypurchase Carmichael and Garrison's "Master's Guide" ? I am notoriouslyslowwhen working on projects at home, too many going at one time and thedemandsof family life. Martyn from anglport@con2.com Sun May 31 09:56:07 1998 Subject: Re: Design At 10:36 PM 5/30/98 EDT, you wrote:In a message dated 5/29/98 6:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Artwrites: Martyn,If you want to get an engineer's view of what's gone before, youshould probably get hold of Carmichael-and-Garrison's "Master'sGuide....". Art Thanks I will have to find a copy. Does anyone out there know where Imaypurchase Carmichael and Garrison's "Master's Guide" ? Martyn Martyn,It's available at both Just Good BooksPO Box 232Belgrade, MT 59714-02321-800-207-0799and Angler's ArtPO Box 148Plainfield, PA 170811-800-848-1020It's about $75 to $80 bucks though! Perhaps a library copy is available?Good hunting! Art from channer@hubwest.com Sun May 31 09:56:20 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AFF084B015E; Sun, 31 May 1998 08:57:52 MDT Subject: Re: Design At 10:36 PM 5/30/98 EDT, you wrote:In a message dated 5/29/98 6:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Artwrites: Martyn,If you want to get an engineer's view of what's gone before, youshould probably get hold of Carmichael-and-Garrison's "Master'sGuide....".If you read it with a critical view to fine-tune or extract info, you'llprobably save yourself inventing the wheel. You may in fact be able topokesome WIDE holes in the prevailing theory and move the "science"forwardconsiderably! Please keep us informed of your progress. Don't bethin-skinned about responses. Some of us react in the right spirit butwearen't necessarily circumspect in the way we express ourselves.I have a feeling you're going to be a real asset to the group.Thanks for joining in!Art Thanks I will have to find a copy. Does anyone out there know where Imaypurchase Carmichael and Garrison's "Master's Guide" ? I am notoriouslyslowwhen working on projects at home, too many going at one time and thedemandsof family life. Martyn Martyn; Try Amazon.com or some of the other book sellers listed on Jerry Fostershome page(Rodmakers). If you can't find it anywhere else, Duranglers herein Durango has 4 copies and I could get one and send it to you. John Channer from destinycon@mindspring.com Sun May 31 10:03:25 1998 Subject: Book Find Anyone interested,I just located a copy of "The Idyl Of The Split Bamboo" (old librarycopy). The owner is asking a little more than half the current price, ifanyone has a desire to own this book please contact me off list fordetails. (If more than one person is interested it will have to be on afirst come bases, sorry.) Gary H.destinycon@mindspring.com from MartynE@aol.com Sun May 31 15:53:50 1998 Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus vs. Gamera In a message dated 5/30/98 3:12:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,ragnarig@integrityol.com writes: Dear Hank You've got an excellent point. Cane is not homogenous. No two bambooculms, let alone splines, are going to be identical. Will they be closeenough to make these kind of tests valid? Probably depends howambitiousthe goals of the test are. My intestinal rumblings tell me that a greatrodwill not be a reasonable goal of such research but that a good one mightbe,and you've got to hit it on the green to make a hole-in-one, right? What I'm curious about are the synergies (my son taught me that wordand Ihad to slip it in) between- at minimum- the characteristics of thematerial(which are variable and may be quantifiable to whatever extent if youhaveaccess to a very accurate scale, a probe hygrometer andhow-far-do- you-want-to-go-with-this) and the structure, which iswhat ourobsession with tapers is all about. whenbuilt with bamboo of varying structure, weight etc. as opposed to"classicdry fly" tapers with their contrasting characteristics. Can thisinformation help me to select the optimum culm for a specific type ofrod? Then you flame them. Does all of this really matter? Probably not. As long as our engineerfriends are working out the unworkoutables of rodmaking, they cannotbedevising new weapons of mass destruction for the Afghans and Jerrywill befulfilling his obligation to the gentlemen in the dark glasses who gavehimthat suitcase full of twenties to start this list. Davy Davy,You know the easiest way to occupy an engineer? Tell him that theproblem is not solvable! I'm a mechanical engineer so I like to solveproblems, although the esthectic part of me realizes that some things canbedesigned to the point of extreme accuracy and still be a pile of junk!Besides this activity keeps some of us occupied and off the streets! Martyn from MasjC1@aol.com Sun May 31 16:23:54 1998 Subject: Bamboo Fly Line Does anyone have any experience with the McKenzie Bamboo Fly Line? Thead inthe latest Bamboo Fly Rod (page 36) makes it look attractive, but howdoes itperform? Mark Cole from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sun May 31 16:27:16 1998 (SMTPD32-4.04) id ACFD5460298; Sun, 31 May 1998 14:34:53 PDT Subject: Re: Bamboo Modulus vs. Gamera You know the easiest way to occupy an engineer? Tell him that theproblem is not solvable! I'm a mechanical engineer so I like to solveproblems, although the esthectic part of me realizes that some thingscanbedesigned to the point of extreme accuracy and still be a pile of junk!Besides this activity keeps some of us occupied and off the streets! Martyn Dear Martyn That's the whole idea. And just in case in case you get bored or feeling self-satisfied, just sendme an e-mail with the words "prismoidal", "log" and "anthro", but this isonly to be used in the direst circumstance, you understand. Davy from channer@hubwest.com Sun May 31 17:57:15 1998 (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A0A5AF0258; Sun, 31 May 1998 16:58:45 MDT Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Line At 05:23 PM 5/31/98 EDT, you wrote:Does anyone have any experience with the McKenzie Bamboo Fly Line? Thead inthe latest Bamboo Fly Rod (page 36) makes it look attractive, but howdoes itperform? Mark Cole Hi Mark;I have been using their 5dt. on the Garrison212 I made for about 3 monthsnow and I like it better than the 333 I was using. There was some talkabout it being stiffer in cold weather, but that has not been a problem forme. It does need to be dressed regularly to keep it floating high. For themoney it seems to be a good line,IMHO. John Channer from fiveside@net-gate.com Sun May 31 18:43:21 1998 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA11842 for Subject: Modulus To Ed, Darryl and others,Been following the modulus discussion with interest but have hadnothingto contribute since have done no testing. However I have software whichwilloutput modulus data for any tapered hex (no fivers dammit) rod, whichcouldsave having to make up special test samples and could be applied to anyrod,old or new. If this is of interest get back to me.Good modulus data could be very revealing. I too would like to know justhow important holding to a thousanth really is if the modulus should varysomething like porm 20 percent from culm to culm, or rod to rod. And thisdata could resolve some of the controversy about heat treating andadhesives. Bill from WayneCatt@aol.com Sun May 31 23:27:14 1998 Subject: Grayrock Planning As the time for Grayrock get closer there are a few things that I wouldask those that are coming Those interested in having ferrules available please let me know yourrequests - cost is list price *.60 (40% discount) As in years past Al Bellinger is sending a selection - here again ifthere is something special that you would like to be there please let meknow. Cork orders???? A student from Memphis has contributed a special character piece totheClubhouse - at least we will now know what time it is. THE HEX HATCH HAS STARTED