from jfoster@gte.net Fri Jan 1 00:03:00 1999 Subject: Re: Payne 101 mac-creator="4D4F5353" Reed indeed jerry from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 1 00:11:41 1999 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard I've been a way a few days so anybody who's sent me mail I haven't ignoredyou.Sourounded with old PC junk as I am at work I'm always looking forsomething to do with it all. I've made a dip tube motor from an oldprinter but something simpler would be the power supply from an oldmachine.All the electrics are there, just deep 6 the fan and replace it with apully or gears. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from MICK@welfen-netz.com Fri Jan 1 05:55:55 1999 [195.143.56.1] with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP4.R) for ; Fri, 01 Jan1999 12:53:59 +0100 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Lifespan of a Bamboo rod Rick,I fish a rod that I build in '85 and it still works with a performance a lotof plastik rods don't have especially on bigger trouts. Since the rod didn'thave any refinish it looks a bit shaggy but nevertheless that doesn't affektthe action. (para/progressive)regardsMichael Rick Crenshaw wrote: List, I'll pose a question that relates somewhat to the 'classic' tapersdiscussion. My Question is: How much change is there over time in the resiliency and castingperformance of a bamboo rod? Does it change noticeably over time? Whatis the given peak lifespan of a bamboo rod? Can one 'work' a rod todeath? Assume that finishing treatments are equal and that the rods werehandled and stored properly. Rick from dan_cooney@ibm.net Fri Jan 1 08:00:26 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA24320; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:00:22 GMT Subject: Re: Another Subject Richard, I am very happy for your wife and you. I know exactly how you feel. Atthis time last year, I had just been told that I had prostate cancer. LikeShirl, I was very fortunate that the cancer had not spread and the surgery was successful. The "PSA" blood test saved my life. The test allowed the cancer to be detected in its early stages. Now I try to convey the word to others,as youand your wife have elected to do. All men (you, family members,friends) past 40 AND those who have a family history of prostate cancer shoulddiscuss the need for annual PSA testing with their physician. If the doctor saysthat you should be tested -- make sure that you get tested ANNUALLY. Had IskippedPSA testing last year, the cancer would probably have spread to otherparts ofmy body by now. Early detection is indeed key. Regards,Dan Cooney Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: List: The following is told because we think it is important enough. My wife recently had a mammogram that warranted a biopsy. The biopsywarranted a single mastectomy. The surgery was successfullyperformed Dec21st, and on the 23d we got the wonderful news that Shirl is cancer freeandcured with no further treatment necessary. The reason for the goodnews isthat the cancer was caught early in it's development and had not begunanoutward march. The reason this is being brought to everyone's attention is to encourageanyand all to insure that no loved one goes without a proper detectionroutine.Our hanging personal family business out on the internet line is a bitscary,but Shirl and I wanted everyone to know by our example that earlydetection isimportant and effective. Happy New Year to All,Richard Tyree- please! Early detection is the key. from dmcfall@ODYSSEE.NET Fri Jan 1 09:26:45 1999 Subject: Anodizing aluminium Is there a way to chemically change the color of aluminum. I have analuminum winding check that I wish to change to a dull black. I seem torecall that this may be done by putting it in a bath of sodium or potassiumhydroxide - does anyone have any ideas on this other than it could bedangerous? Thankand Happy New Year. The way to a fisherman's heart is through his fly. Dave McFalldmcfall@odyssee.net from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Jan 1 09:29:38 1999 fbcwin@fsbnet.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: RE: equal triangles Seth and Harry,If you put the larger than 60 deg. side down in the form you don't getwobble,especially if you use the deepest part of the form that the stripwillallow and still be able to cant the plane. Admittedly I've thrown away afewstrips and kept some I shouldn't but generally i've been able to correctmostof the off center apices. Just my $.02Regards,Hank W. from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 1 09:30:09 1999 Subject: Re: Dip Tank Motor Quality turntables are valuable. I would check to see that your turntable isnot onthe collector list before you junk it to build a dip tank.I still enjoy the the superior sound of vinyl and would not dream ofjunking my my 2decks.T.Ackland reed wrote: Art,Nah, nothing with hysterisis. I can't even do the Lambada.My procedure was simplicity itself (look to the source). I figured thattheturntable already had most of the components I wanted, well mountedand insulated;so I simply removed the bottom exposing the wiring and extended theline on thepressure switch that indicates whether the arm is locked down. Then Iglued a 1"pulley to the shaft of the turntable and tipped it on its side. I built apinefoursided frame and positioned a 6" pulley on a half inch shaft above the1"pulley. The line to the rod is fastened to this shaft and passes throughtwo tinybrass pulleys hanging from cup hooks in the joists above. I can move thewholething in a minute by taking the pulleys off the cup hooks and picking upthe pineframe.My calculations give me a 6" per minute pull rate, but I haven't timedit. Mynext step will be positioning the pressure switch so that somthingclamped on theline can trigger it to the off position when the pull is complete. Wait aminute,I just remembered, I have an old programmable XR10 which I can set toprovidepower to the turntable, cutting power for a minute at predefinedintervals toallow the snakes to drip. It may take me several hours to properlyprogram foreach rod section...Best regards,Reed Art Port wrote: Reed,I thought those motors went a mile a minute. How do you slow it downenoughto pull 2" a minute? Or are you talking about some hysterisissynchronousdirect drive or something?Art from rmoon@ida.net Fri Jan 1 10:04:17 1999 Subject: Re: Anodizing aluminium McFall David wrote: Is there a way to chemically change the color of aluminum. I have analuminum winding check that I wish to change to a dull black. I seem torecall that this may be done by putting it in a bath of sodium orpotassiumhydroxide - does anyone have any ideas on this other than it could bedangerous? Thankand Happy New Year. The way to a fisherman's heart is through his fly. Dave McFalldmcfall@odyssee.net Dave go to this url at the bottom of the page. Ralphhttp://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htm from mrj@aa.net Fri Jan 1 10:26:05 1999 Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:24:39 -0800 0800 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard In all this talk about dip tank motors I haven't heard anyone mention using old barbecue rotisserie motors. ( did I miss it?) Right out of the box they run at about a 6 inch per minute pull. I think this is too fast and I built kind of a gear reducer out of two different sized spools to slow it down to between 2 and 4 inches per minute. These are cheap motors that you canfind at garage sales or thrift shops for about a dollar or two and are very dependable. Also they are 120 volt. I don't think that you could lower the speed with a rheostat though. It might work but I think it would burn out the motor fairly quickly.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard I've been a way a few days so anybody who's sent me mail I haven't ignoredyou.Sourounded with old PC junk as I am at work I'm always looking forsomething to do with it all. I've made a dip tube motor from an oldprinter but something simpler would be the power supply from an oldmachine.All the electrics are there, just deep 6 the fan and replace it with apully or gears. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@top.monad.net Fri Jan 1 10:50:38 1999 Subject: Re: Dip Tank Motor Terry,I didn't think about collectible aspects, but I used ferrule cement tofasten the 1"pulley to the aluminum turntable. I figure, if anyone notices it's missing, Ican haveit back together and playing Paul Anka's Greatest Hits in, oh, fifteenminutes. Ofcourse, Paul Anka's Greatest Hits is probably a 45 and I lost the 45adapter; so it maytake me longer.Best regards,Reed Terence Ackland wrote: Quality turntables are valuable. I would check to see that your turntableis not onthe collector list before you junk it to build a dip tank.I still enjoy the the superior sound of vinyl and would not dream ofjunking my my 2decks.T.Ackland from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Jan 1 11:14:00 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5l.R) for ; Fri, 01 Jan1999 12:15:21 -0500 Subject: Sweetwater Rods Does anyone have a current telephone number of Sweetwater Rods? I haveacouple of numbers for George but they aren't good. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Jan 1 11:14:21 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5l.R) for ; Fri, 01 Jan1999 12:16:10 -0500 Subject: Planing Forms Wanting to purchase planing forms ready to go out of the box. Anysuggestions or comments? Please give recommendations of where topurchase,etc. from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Jan 1 11:24:42 1999 Subject: Re: Anodizing aluminium David, try Birchwood Casey aluminum blacking avaiable at gun supplyshops. ----------From: McFall David Subject: Anodizing aluminiumDate: Friday, January 01, 1999 10:26 AM Is there a way to chemically change the color of aluminum. I have analuminum winding check that I wish to change to a dull black. I seem torecall that this may be done by putting it in a bath of sodium orpotassiumhydroxide - does anyone have any ideas on this other than it could bedangerous? Thankand Happy New Year. The way to a fisherman's heart is through his fly. Dave McFalldmcfall@odyssee.net from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Jan 1 11:26:20 1999 , Subject: Re: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard You can buy 1rpm, 110v motors for furnace humidifiers. Add a pulley (myfirst was a friction fit cork with cardboard flanges. Later, I turned one from aluminum. If its dia. is 1", one rev. lifts 3.14". Add a simplestand and support. These motors cost approx. $5.00 Can.----------From: Martin Jensen Subject: RE: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyardDate: Friday, January 01, 1999 11:22 AM In all this talk about dip tank motors I haven't heard anyone mentionusing old barbecue rotisserie motors. ( did I miss it?) Right out of the boxthey run at about a 6 inch per minute pull. I think this is too fast and Ibuilt kind of a gear reducer out of two different sized spools to slow it downto between 2 and 4 inches per minute. These are cheap motors that you canfind at garage sales or thrift shops for about a dollar or two and are very dependable. Also they are 120 volt. I don't think that you could lowerthe speed with a rheostat though. It might work but I think it would burn out the motor fairly quickly.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young [SMTP:tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au]Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 10:11 PM Subject: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard I've been a way a few days so anybody who's sent me mail I haven'tignoredyou.Sourounded with old PC junk as I am at work I'm always looking forsomething to do with it all. I've made a dip tube motor from an oldprinter but something simpler would be the power supply from an oldmachine.All the electrics are there, just deep 6 the fan and replace it with apully or gears. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Fri Jan 1 11:39:01 1999 Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:38:55 GMT Subject: Re: Lifespan of a Bamboo rod When I did yacht design at college one of the big issues for buildingwoodenboats was the importance of differential shrinkage, ie where the materialwill shrink in multiple planes. Does bamboo siffer from this as well? Oneof my fly rods is a 1934 Hardy Deluxe and its still fine for me but perhapsan expert would think otherwise.Tim.PS I can remember being in Thailand or Singapore in about '68 and seeinga new highrise hotel being built surrounded with Bamboo scaffolding andguysclimbing all over it T-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Lifespan of a Bamboo rod BretThere is a terrific picture of this scaffolding in Luis Marden's classicOct 1982 National Geographic article on Bamboo. The picture was taken inHong Kong of a high rise building. truly Amazing. Chris On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:11:43 EST, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,As some of you know I am in construction. Well awhile back I saw aneatarticle in one of the trade journals about bamboo being made intoscaffoldingin I believe it was Japan. You have to go thru a very intense training tobequalified to do this job as peoples lives depend on what you build. Theywenton to talk about a very big monsoon hitting Japan and how all the metalscaffold that was put up was bent into pretzels and how all of it wastotallydestroyed but the bamboo scaffolding showed no signs of weakness oranydamageat all. Now I am just speculating here but with this info about bamboosxaffolding being so tuff and resiliant my own personal guess would bethatbamboo rods will enjoy a very long lifespan if it is not used to derrickuphalibut from the bottom of the ocean or abused in any other way.Bret from paullyon@epix.net Fri Jan 1 11:40:21 1999 ESMTP id MAA27416 Subject: Happy New Year mac-creator="4D4F5353" One and all: Happiness and good health in 1999. My resolution this year is to catch atrout over 20 inches on a fly. Any other interesting resolutions outthere? Paul from lblan@provide.net Fri Jan 1 13:05:29 1999 Subject: RE: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard Any universal (brush type) AC motor can be slowed with a rheostat. Take apeek inside, if it has brushes, you can drop the voltage. A quick, easy, andinexpensive way to cut it in half (approximately) is to wire a diode inseries with the 110v lead. The wattage rating of the diode needs to equalorexceed the rating of the motor. Induction motors (brushless) are the one's that are damaged by loweringthevoltage, examples might be your air conditioning compressor, table sawmotor, etc. -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 01, 1999 11:22 AMSubject: RE: dip tube motors from the elephant's graveyard In all this talk about dip tank motors I haven't heard anyonemention usingold barbecue rotisserie motors. ( did I miss it?) Right out ofthe box theyrun at about a 6 inch per minute pull. I think this is too fastand I builtkind of a gear reducer out of two different sized spools to slowit down tobetween 2 and 4 inches per minute. These are cheap motors thatyou can findat garage sales or thrift shops for about a dollar or two and are verydependable. Also they are 120 volt. I don't think that you couldlower thespeed with a rheostat though. It might work but I think it would burn outthe motor fairly quickly.Martin R. Jensen from hhholland@erols.com Fri Jan 1 15:32:58 1999 "Bamboo Flyrod List" Subject: Re: Sweetwater Rods The most current number I have is from the newest issue of "The BambooFlyRod" (yes, I got it at the fly shop I manage -- my personal home deliveryhasn't arrived yet) is:151 Sutter RdLenhartsville PA 19534610-756-6385 Good luck,Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: Sweetwater Rods Does anyone have a current telephone number of Sweetwater Rods? Ihave acouple of numbers for George but they aren't good. from paullyon@epix.net Fri Jan 1 16:24:37 1999 ESMTP id RAA19040; Subject: Re: Happy New Year mac-creator="4D4F5353" Brett, Someday, I'll take you up on that, Brett. We've got lots of them that sizearound northeastern Pennsylvania, too. I just have resolved to startstalkingthe big ones instead of catching lots of smaller natives and stocked fish.Been fishing all my life in smaller streams and the largest I've caught wasin the 18 range. I'm overdue for a lunker! Thanks for the invite. Hope you're having a great holiday! Paul Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Paul,Come to Michigan and I can put you into some trout that size on dry flies.Bret from darrell01@netzero.net Fri Jan 1 16:48:36 1999 (206.175.109.83) Subject: New web site, www.rodbuilding.com boundary="=PMail:=_0000@@ZKtW68FhLTAi7aZLvBaS" --=PMail:=_0000@@ZKtW68FhLTAi7aZLvBaS A new site just starting up looks like but they will have cane articles Just thought if you had any free time left, this might take it up a bit... Darrell --=PMail:=_0000@@ZKtW68FhLTAi7aZLvBaS-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Fri Jan 1 18:05:21 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:05:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Spline / spine No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a second thereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possible toproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on the weakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod. Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accurately andthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel is thekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" will helpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It will alsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guides tapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for a fewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have three sections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understand thewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in my wordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the opposite oftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and finding thestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongest flatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It also doesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next to nexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface up whenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculr tothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt end ofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside of thecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's what Iwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because, Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I could befull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guides arelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and put guideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guides onthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines with thestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes position of2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt on thefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward on theleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rod isleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not face up. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Jan 1 18:14:21 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02043 for ;Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:14:29 Subject: Immortal Tapers Taper List Proposal;To update and give a bit more diversity to the list, Tom Smithwick's 5foot 6 inch one piecer for wt 4&5 should be considered. Many of you whohavecast and built this should second this motion. Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 1 20:33:27 1999 Subject: Re: Spline / spine If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taper databaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot be persuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your views andexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possible toproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on the weakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod. Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accurately andthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel is thekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" will helpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It will alsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guides tapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for a fewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understand thewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the opposite oftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongest flatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It also doesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next to nexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculr tothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt end ofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside of thecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's what Iwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because, Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I could befull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guides arelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and put guideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guides onthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines with thestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt on thefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward on theleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rod isleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not face up. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 1 20:55:22 1999 Subject: Re: Anodizing aluminium try http://www.avana.net/~anodise/ McFall David wrote: Is there a way to chemically change the color of aluminum. I have analuminum winding check that I wish to change to a dull black. I seem torecall that this may be done by putting it in a bath of sodium orpotassiumhydroxide - does anyone have any ideas on this other than it could bedangerous? Thankand Happy New Year. The way to a fisherman's heart is through his fly. Dave McFalldmcfall@odyssee.net from jczimny@dol.net Fri Jan 1 21:48:58 1999 Subject: Re: Spline / spine I have found measureable differences in power fiber depth from one sideof a culmto the other side. In some few culms there was almost no difference. Idon't thinkthere is any noticable difference in action in any of them.John Z Terence Ackland wrote: If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taper databaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot be persuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your viewsandexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possibletoproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on theweakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod. Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel is thekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" will helpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It will alsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guides tapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for afewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understand thewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the opposite oftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It also doesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while castingtowardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next to nexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt end ofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside ofthecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's what Iwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because, Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I could befull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guidesarelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and put guideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guidesonthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines with thestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt onthefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward ontheleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just inneighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not faceup. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from jsbond@inforamp.net Fri Jan 1 22:35:07 1999 Subject: Fwd: Re: Maurer or Howell? Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:09:38 -0500 From: James Bond Subject: Re: Maurer or Howell? George's book is a must for new builders and and a "should have" for anybuilder, it is extremely clear and well done. The only books that can helpa new builder are the Garrison book ( a little confusing), George's andWayne's. Wise, Kreider, Barnes etc are a good read but do not provide theroadmap an isolated new builder needs. Find George's book and buy it! JB At 03:28 PM 23/12/98 -0600, you wrote:I'd like to pick up another book to use in addition to Wayne's as I'mgetting started. I was thinking of getting one of the more recent workslike Maurer or Howell. I would greatly appreciate the recommendationsfromsome folks on the list. Could I ask the favor of some "IMHOs" on thesebooks? I have yet to split my first culm so I'm looking for a goodbeginners reference that includes equipment set up, etc. TIA,Mark Evans from jsbond@inforamp.net Fri Jan 1 22:35:10 1999 Subject: Fwd: Re: BOEGEMAN lathe types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_2163594==_.ALT" --=====================_2163594==_.ALTContent-Type: text/plain; Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:04:19 -0500 From: James Bond Subject: Re: BOEGEMAN lathe This is the same Mini Lathe that is sold at Lee Valley Tools, drop by astoreand have a look. JB At 09:03 AM 28/12/98 -0500, you wrote: Has anyone bought one of those J.C. BOEGEMAN metal lathes advertisedin ThePlaning Form? If so, any reviews off list would be much appreciated. Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --=====================_2163594==_.ALT Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:04:19 -0500 Subject: Re: BOEGEMAN lathe This is the same Mini Lathe that is sold at Lee Valley Tools, drop by astore and have a look. JB At 09:03 AM 28/12/98 -0500, you wrote: Has anyone bought one ofthose J.C. BOEGEMAN metal lathes advertised inThe Planing Form? If so, any reviews off list would be muchappreciated. Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --=====================_2163594==_.ALT-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 1 22:59:23 1999 Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:57:28 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Spline / spine Geeez guys,if all you want is to catch a measly 20"er on fly get on a plane and getthe to NZ and while you're there take a few Salmon while you're there.In fact try for the Big Three. A 20+" trout, Salmon and a Red Deer in aday. I've done it the hard way ie. without a guide. It's like I've writen before with the $US/$Aussie, $US/$Kiwi as it is it'scomparable with placing a sure thing bet, you know you'll get a 50% returnon your money! Tony On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possible toproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on the weakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod. Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accurately andthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel is thekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" will helpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It will alsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guides tapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for a fewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understand thewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the opposite oftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongest flatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It also doesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next to nexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculr tothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt end ofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside of thecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's what Iwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because, Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I could befull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guides arelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and put guideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guides onthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines with thestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt on thefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward on theleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rod isleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not face up. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sat Jan 2 02:16:16 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id RAA22168 for; Sat, 2Jan 1999 17:16:11 +0900 (JST) Subject: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) in materialengineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes the relationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength of its location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strength isshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side of thebamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness. Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understand itsmilar to Tonkin on its characteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of thestrip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (or outer)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those strips shiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement some level ofimbalance. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from dan_cooney@ibm.net Sat Jan 2 07:44:15 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA115204; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:44:10 GMT Subject: Re: Anodizing aluminium Terry, Minor change on that link: http://www.avana.net/~anodize/ Terence Ackland wrote: try http://www.avana.net/~anodise/ from ewcarlsen@webtv.net Sat Jan 2 07:59:11 1999 105.iap.bryant.webtv.net 111.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id 111.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/mt.gso.26Feb98) ETAtAhUAmaY/gzPql8vI3pNVe1D/W3FU+k0CFHFVzZoD1odovTDWjVmdtP/O1YK4 Subject: Dip Tank Motors Purchased six -12v 1rpm gear drive motors from Tower Hobbies (about$12each) for another project. My dip tube was per Wayne C. except I used a2" to 1 1/4" reducer with male threads so the varnish is not in contactwith the threads. Found a rubber plug at the hardware to close off thetube then cover with a 2" PVC pipe cap. Cadillac Plastics sold me 41/2ft of 3" clear acrylic tube for a dust shield ( $9.00). My ohm metersaid I needed a 10k wire wound pot for speed control. Added a dpdtswitch for forward and reverse ad powered with a Radio Shack 12v plug intransformer ($7.50). Mounted them in a small test box. It was easy tocalculate the size of the wooden spool needed for speeds from 0" to 6"per min lift. Charged the dip tube with Interlux Marine Crystal Clearpoly varnish that is compatible with an initial rubbed coat of tung oilto highlight the wood grain. Once the rod section is up in the dryingtube I close it off with a 3" cork stopper, also from the hardwarestore.Needed a two piece dip tube arrangement as I live in a condo withlimited storage space. Use the living room with a cathedral ceiling.Only place there was enough height. Attach the dip tube to the column system and they look great. Works for me!! Ed Carlsen from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Sat Jan 2 10:27:45 1999 (EudoraInternet Mail Server 2.2); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:27:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Spline / spine No big deal...I just believe since we are using natural materials, andnothing is ever perfect, a spline could be found. from a planingstandpoint, all it would take is a couple thousandths over/under on onespline over the entire length of a rod. I don't know about everyone else,but I only look at the dimensions in 5" increments for the most part. Thereis a whole lot of cane in between those 5" marks. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spline / spine If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taper databaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot be persuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your viewsandexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possibletoproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on theweakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod.Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel isthekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" willhelpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It willalsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guidestapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for afewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understandthewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the oppositeoftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It alsodoesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next tonexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt endofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside ofthecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's whatIwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because,Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I couldbefull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guidesarelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and putguideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guidesonthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines withthestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt onthefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward ontheleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not faceup. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from darrell01@netzero.net Sat Jan 2 10:50:19 1999 (199.174.228.6) Subject: Re: Dip Tank Motors - Doesn't anybody use a brush anymore? boundary="=PMail:=_0001@@0VWT9l0Ts5MVJoh9PL3l" --=PMail:=_0001@@0VWT9l0Ts5MVJoh9PL3l It seems to me a brush, a can of varnish and my two motors 68 rpm toapplyfinish and 4 rpm to dry the rod seems a lot simpler... Darrell (not to be confused with my other brother Darryl)=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Dip Tank Motors Purchased six -12v 1rpm gear drive motors from Tower Hobbies (about$12each) for another project. My dip tube was per Wayne C. except I useda2" to 1 1/4" reducer with male threads so the varnish is not in contactwith the threads. Found a rubber plug at the hardware to close off thetube then cover with a 2" PVC pipe cap. Cadillac Plastics sold me 41/2ft of 3" clear acrylic tube for a dust shield ( $9.00). My ohm metersaid I needed a 10k wire wound pot for speed control. Added a dpdtswitch for forward and reverse ad powered with a Radio Shack 12v plugintransformer ($7.50). Mounted them in a small test box. It was easy tocalculate the size of the wooden spool needed for speeds from 0" to 6"per min lift. Charged the dip tube with Interlux Marine Crystal Clearpoly varnish that is compatible with an initial rubbed coat of tung oilto highlight the wood grain. Once the rod section is up in the dryingtube I close it off with a 3" cork stopper, also from the hardwarestore.Needed a two piece dip tube arrangement as I live in a condo withlimited storage space. Use the living room with a cathedral ceiling.Only place there was enough height. Attach the dip tube to the column system and they look great. Works for me!! Ed Carlsen --=PMail:=_0001@@0VWT9l0Ts5MVJoh9PL3l-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 2 10:59:55 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Max,I am sorry. I just try to build half decent fishing poles without all thepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifying personalpreferences.I, on the other hand enjoy the challenge of trying to build quality canerods that the average angler can afford.Terry Ackland Max Satoh wrote: Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) in materialengineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes the relationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength ofits location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strength isshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side of thebamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness. Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understand itsmilar to Tonkin on itscharacteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of thestrip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (or outer)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those strips shiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement some level ofimbalance. Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from Turbotrk@aol.com Sat Jan 2 11:07:50 1999 Subject: Thoughts for a slow list Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks. Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. Onewasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my work bench)I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method. Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I know thatIcould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jan 2 11:39:43 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Immortal Tapers Bill - Thanks for the kind mention of the 5 1/2 foot taper, but I doubt thatthis is one of those tapers that the gods will carry into Valhalla withthem.I think that it is a bit too specialized to qualify in a list of all time, allaround, versatile tapers. I also want to add my voice to that of Terry and John in the opinion that,within reason, variations from culm to culm and within a culm don't makeforlarge differences. Taper seems to me to be the critical factor in roddesign.Glue, heat treating, etc, all make a difference, but the overall feel of therod will not change much if the taper is accurate and you have followedreasonable building procedures. I think an excercise like this isworthwhile.You may not be able to exactly duplicate the work of one of the oldmasters,but you can get very close.I got to cast an original Garrison last year, It was really nice, but notreally any different in terms of casting than the clones being built bypeopletoday. from harry37@epix.net Sat Jan 2 11:52:01 1999 Subject: Re: Another Subject Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: List: The following is told because we think it is important enough. My wife recently had a mammogram that warranted a biopsy. The biopsywarranted a single mastectomy. The surgery was successfullyperformed Dec21st, and on the 23d we got the wonderful news that Shirl is cancer freeandcured with no further treatment necessary. The reason for the goodnews isthat the cancer was caught early in it's development and had not begunanoutward march. The reason this is being brought to everyone's attention is to encourageanyand all to insure that no loved one goes without a proper detectionroutine.Our hanging personal family business out on the internet line is a bitscary,but Shirl and I wanted everyone to know by our example that earlydetection isimportant and effective. Happy New Year to All,Richard Tyree To all, Without sounding like a bit of a public service announcement, the sameadvice goes for colo-rectal cancer screening. A hemoccult is simple,cheap, and can give you the same early warning that Richard spoke about,but for colo-rectal cancer. Greg from harry37@epix.net Sat Jan 2 11:56:35 1999 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks. Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. Onewasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench) I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method. Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Try the bottom layer from Champagne corks. It will take a while toaccumilate what you need, but can you think of a better excuse to buysparkling wines? Greg from mrj@aa.net Sat Jan 2 13:35:05 1999 Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:34:58 -0800 0800 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: RE: Spline / spine Jon,I locate my guides by placing the butt end of my blank section on a sturdy table and then bouncing my finger up and down on the rod section abouttwo or three inches out past the table. I do this in turn, with each flat face down on the table. I look at the tip of the section, and on one (usually two) flat there will be a noticeable difference in how the tip bounces around. The tip will start to bounce up and down like you are pushing the rod, but then it will start to rotate and bounce around in a circular pattern. (I place my guides on the flat that has the closest bounce to an up and down motion that I can find. Usually, if you get a fairly perpendicular bounce on one flat you will get similar results on the opposite flat also. Then I hold the rod section straight out and sight down the length of it. I used to rotate the rod so that it had the least droop using only the two flats that had the best up and down bounce, and placemy guides on the opposite side. I have reversed this procedure simply because I like the way the rod casts better.)All this indicates to me that there are stronger or weaker sides to the bamboo as you have mentioned. Or at least maybe density differences(which I doubt). I don't look for a spline in the traditional sense but my method still finds the casting plane that is most natural to a forward and backward cast.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spline / spine No big deal...I just believe since we are using natural materials, andnothing is ever perfect, a spline could be found. from a planingstandpoint, all it would take is a couple thousandths over/under on onespline over the entire length of a rod. I don't know about everyone else,but I only look at the dimensions in 5" increments for the most part. Thereis a whole lot of cane in between those 5" marks. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spline / spine If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taper databaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot be persuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your viewsandexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possible toproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on theweakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod.Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel isthekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" willhelpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It willalsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guidestapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for afewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understandthewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the oppositeoftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It alsodoesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next tonexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt endofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside ofthecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's whatIwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because,Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I couldbefull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guidesarelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and putguideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guidesonthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines withthestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt onthefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward ontheleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not faceup. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from tripp@olywa.net Sat Jan 2 16:43:52 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:44:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine Mine showed up today. July/August issue... Mark ---------- Subject: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine Good News.Lots of talk about the status of subscriptions. I too was a chartersubscriber. My copy of "The Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine", July/August issue,showed up in the mail today.Bill from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 2 17:39:10 1999 mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Subject: Index to Archives Does such a thing exist? Are the archives by any chance indexed at a sitelike this http://lq.corenetworks.com/lq/about.html ?Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from SBDunn@aol.com Sat Jan 2 17:45:26 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine My BFR arrived today! Yahoo!!! from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Jan 2 17:55:43 1999 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Greg / Sturat I would especially like to recommend the 1990 Dom Perignon for bothhaving excellent cork and also being a fine bubbly. Chris On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:45:36 -0500, Greg Kuntz wrote: Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks. Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. One wasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench) I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method. Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Try the bottom layer from Champagne corks. It will take a while toaccumilate what you need, but can you think of a better excuse to buysparkling wines? Greg from Anachemrpo@aol.com Sat Jan 2 18:06:09 1999 Subject: Ferrule click and fishing rod Listers, I have a Edwards Bristol Built f-18, 8.5', three piece that is in really goodshape except the female ferrule in the first section has a click to it. I would like to fish this rod, and since it is otherwise in good originalshape I'd rather not compromise the originality by taking the wraps andferrule off to fix the click, unless I'm endangering the rod and just asking Advice on the meaning and significance of clicking at the ferrule to rodintegrity is sought. Thank you in advance, Russ Lavigne from paullyon@epix.net Sat Jan 2 20:43:42 1999 ESMTP id VAA28179; Subject: Re: Happy New Year mac-creator="4D4F5353" Bret, Anytime. Being a married father of two, I don't have much financialwherewithal for flyfishing junkets so come on down. There's plenty ofgreat rivers and streams right here in my back yard - the UpperDelaware, of course, being the most prominent. But plenty of productivesmaller streams, as well. As a matter of fact, the Brodhead Creek, whichis about an hour from here, is the birthplace of American sportfishing.And the Beaverkill in the nearby Catskills is like Mecca for most of us.Keep in touch. Paul Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Paul,well maybe I can come up to PA this sumer and you can show me around.Bret from jsbond@inforamp.net Sat Jan 2 22:11:16 1999 Subject: Re: Maurer or Howell? The Lovely Reed Jack Howell JB At 04:34 PM 02/01/99 -0500, you wrote:In a message dated 1/1/99 9:43:39 PM Mountain Standard Time,jsbond@inforamp.net writes: Pardon my ignorance, can you give the title and full authors name for"Howell"Thank you Ben JarvisHyde Park UT from stpete@netten.net Sat Jan 2 22:37:07 1999 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12)with SMTP id WAA09025 for ; Sat, 2 Jan Subject: Truncated or Standard Ferrules???? List, I know that this was discussed 6 or 8 months ago, but I'm hoping forupdated information (perhaps more have tried truncated ferrules sincethen). I am thinking of using truncated ferrules on 3 pc rods. I'dlove to hear responses on the following: 1) What is your opinion of truncated ferrules vs standard ferrules? 2) If you DO use truncated ferrules, is there a rod length / weightlimit to which you would restrict their use? 3) Have you ever had a bad experience with truncated ferrules? 4) What advantages have you experienced using truncated ferrules? Thanks in advance. I think there are others out here who wouldappreciate the advice and opinions of you experience rodmakers outthere. Rick C. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 2 22:45:31 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Sun, 3 Jan 1999 04:44:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine I got mine today, too. George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine Mine showed up today. July/August issue... Mark ----------From: Bill Strelke Subject: Bamboo Fly Rod MagazineDate: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 2:28 PM Good News.Lots of talk about the status of subscriptions. I too was a chartersubscriber. My copy of "The Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine", July/Augustissue,showed up in the mail today.Bill from ragnarig@integrityol.com Sun Jan 3 01:14:41 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AB2116850100; Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:24:17 PDT Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list My money's on the Veuve Cliquot- any '60s vintage. Also makes greatclamping pads.Davy Greg / Sturat I would especially like to recommend the 1990 Dom Perignon for bothhaving excellent cork and also being a fine bubbly. Chris On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:45:36 -0500, Greg Kuntz wrote: Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks.Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. Onewasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench)I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method.Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelines>>> would detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tubewiththosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Try the bottom layer from Champagne corks. It will take a while toaccumilate what you need, but can you think of a better excuse to buysparkling wines? Greg from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Jan 3 07:19:28 1999 HAA16018 Subject: Cane Selection In light of the recent discussions about power fibers and with theknowledge that very good rods have been built with no regard to theparticular culm a strip came from. I was wondering what the perceptionsof the list in general were as to strip selection. Eschewing the effect of nodes, does it make any difference at all wherea strip comes from on a culm? I realize that you can come across stripsthat are noodles and therefore worthless, but if the cane in question isresilient and has sufficient power fibers, does it make any differencewhere it was on the culm? Does cane have any inherent characteristicsbecause of its location at the base, middle or top of a culm? Is node placement completely cosmetic? I recall reading in the Archivesthat an individual built a rod with the nodes all in one location.Surely if nodes constituted a weak spot then this rod would fail atfirst use. Node placement at or near tip. What are the experiences of modern rods?Have any current builders placed a node within an inch or two of the tipof a rod that has received a modicum of use? If so, what were theeffects? Looking forward to any and all responses. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Jan 3 08:55:16 1999 don") by eeyore.eon.netwith SMTP id ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:54:52 -0700 Subject: Mean-mouthing Garrison Guys, Over the past 2 years I've read post after post of folks who havemean- mouthed Garrison's book. I for one can't figure out what the problemis with Garrison. The drawings are straight forward. The math leaves alittle to be desired - but so what. Without him and books like his, most ofus would not have been building at all.I started with Garrison's book and a little help from a fellow who showedme how to build wood forms. It worked enough that I've built about 60 orsorods. Certainly I've changed the technique that Garrison used to suitmyself but fundamentally the technique that Garrison used is by myselfand modified/rethought some of Garrison's techniques and modified them tosuitthemselves. While subsequent books have added some knowledge to the process - theyareessentially a regurgitation of Garrison's methods.It's a happy day when you discover the Holy Grail, I believe that theGrail is Garrison and all others after it have just polished the vessel. All the best, Don from paullyon@epix.net Sun Jan 3 09:08:45 1999 ESMTP id KAA23917; Subject: Re: Happy New Year mac-creator="4D4F5353" Around where? Paul Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: My resolution is to catch one over 20 pounds. Oh yea, I am not kidding. Wegrow them that big around here. stuart miller from paullyon@epix.net Sun Jan 3 09:18:53 1999 ESMTP id KAA24625; Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod mac-creator="4D4F5353" Russ: Does the click go away if you push the ferrule together tighter? I have onethatbehaves like that. Just offering a potentially simple solution. Paul Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Listers, I have a Edwards Bristol Built f-18, 8.5', three piece that is in reallygoodshape except the female ferrule in the first section has a click to it. I would like to fish this rod, and since it is otherwise in good originalshape I'd rather not compromise the originality by taking the wraps andferrule off to fix the click, unless I'm endangering the rod and justasking Advice on the meaning and significance of clicking at the ferrule to rodintegrity is sought. Thank you in advance, Russ Lavigne from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sun Jan 3 09:53:48 1999 mail.wzrd.com (8.9.1/8.7.3) Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod At 07:05 PM 1/2/99 EST, Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote:Listers, I have a Edwards Bristol Built f-18, 8.5', three piece that is in reallygoodshape except the female ferrule in the first section has a click to it. I would like to fish this rod, and since it is otherwise in good originalshape I'd rather not compromise the originality by taking the wraps andferrule off to fix the click, unless I'm endangering the rod and just asking Advice on the meaning and significance of clicking at the ferrule to rodintegrity is sought. Thank you in advance, Russ Lavigne Russ, Not being able to hear your "click" puts me at a disadvantage in diagnosingthe problem with your Bristol. If the click is a distinctive metallicsound. you probably have a worn ferrule. There are a number of ways todealwith this sort of problem. If it is really bad you may have to replace theferrule. If it is really minor you can probably fix it by putting bee's wax(sparingly) on the male. If the wax doesn't do it then it is often possible to fix by compressingthe female in a 3-jawed chuck for a drill or lathe. More recently someoneon the list wrote that you can remove the male and fill it with fine sand.Then compress the sand buy placing a metal rod into the ferrule andstriking the metal rod with a hammer (in a controlled manner) so as toexpand the male ferrule. If your click involves the rod blank where it enters the female ferrule.You have no choice but to remove and re-seat the ferrule. You shouldresolve this issue before you fish the rod. My personal experience is thata ferrule loose on the blank will often lead to catastrophe- a broken rod. There is much on this issue on this list (see Jerry's archives). Also theseissues are covered in Mike Sinclair's "Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook,"beginning on page 36. Mike warns that if one ferrule is loose on the blank,there are probably others. Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Jan 3 09:56:28 1999 "Anachemrpo@aol.com" Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod Russ This is a problem you should have taken care of - especiallyif you want to fish the rod. If you don't - bad things could happen. The clicking is caused by a loose ferrule - the glue has failed is holding it on. Continue to flex it will cause the pin to work into thecane and cause more damage until that bad thing happens and youloose that section of the rod. Best thing to do is to remove the pin. Depends - you candrive it out with small punch or drill it out with a very fine drill bit. The ferrule will come off easily - clean off the old glue - and you canreglue and remount the ferrule. Repining is your option. Bailey Woodsells the NS wire or borrow a small piece from somebody who has a stash. Chris On Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:05:22 EST, Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Listers, I have a Edwards Bristol Built f-18, 8.5', three piece that is in reallygoodshape except the female ferrule in the first section has a click to it. I would like to fish this rod, and since it is otherwise in good originalshape I'd rather not compromise the originality by taking the wraps andferrule off to fix the click, unless I'm endangering the rod and just asking Advice on the meaning and significance of clicking at the ferrule to rodintegrity is sought. Thank you in advance, Russ Lavigne Regards Chris from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 3 10:38:04 1999 Subject: Dickerson said Hi, seeing that the list is pretty dead, perhaps there could be somefriendly interchange on the following?I have been looking through an old ( Fall 1991) copy of The American FlyFisher magazine at an article on famous US rodmakers. In the chapter onGarrison, Dickerson was to have said about Garrison, "If rod making wasas difficult as Garrison described, no one would have been able to havebuilt rods."Judging by all the books and videos that are available based on theoriginal Charmichael/Garrison excellent book and the number of builders,Dickerson was dead wrong.T. Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 3 11:00:50 1999 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: Re: Spline / spine Martin,generally the rod action in fly fishing is in an eliptical pattern. Fromcasting to mending line to setting hooks is not a mechanical one planeaction.I put my guides on what looks the straightest when sighting down the rod.Icannot remember any complaints about the guides being 60 degs or so off!T. Ackland Martin Jensen wrote: Jon,I locate my guides by placing the butt end of my blank section on asturdytable and then bouncing my finger up and down on the rod section abouttwoor three inches out past the table. I do this in turn, with each flat facedown on the table. I look at the tip of the section, and on one (usuallytwo) flat there will be a noticeable difference in how the tip bouncesaround. The tip will start to bounce up and down like you are pushing therod, but then it will start to rotate and bounce around in a circularpattern. (I place my guides on the flat that has the closest bounce to anup and down motion that I can find. Usually, if you get a fairlyperpendicular bounce on one flat you will get similar results on theopposite flat also. Then I hold the rod section straight out and sightdownthe length of it. I used to rotate the rod so that it had the least droopusing only the two flats that had the best up and down bounce, and placemyguides on the opposite side. I have reversed this procedure simplybecauseI like the way the rod casts better.)All this indicates to me that there are stronger or weaker sides to thebamboo as you have mentioned. Or at least maybe density differences(whichI doubt). I don't look for a spline in the traditional sense but my methodstill finds the casting plane that is most natural to a forward andbackward cast.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message-----From: Jon Lintvet [SMTP:jlintvet@clarityconnect.com]Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Spline / spine No big deal...I just believe since we are using natural materials, andnothing is ever perfect, a spline could be found. from a planingstandpoint, all it would take is a couple thousandths over/under on onespline over the entire length of a rod. I don't know about everyone else,but I only look at the dimensions in 5" increments for the most part.Thereis a whole lot of cane in between those 5" marks. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 9:35 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taperdatabaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot bepersuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your viewsandexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shotatcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked thatyoucould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank sectionwithoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possibletoproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on theweakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod.Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel isthekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know howhe/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" willhelpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It willalsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guidestapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for afewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understandthewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the oppositeoftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flatofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It alsodoesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while castingtowardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next tonexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt endofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside ofthecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That'swhatIwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curvebecause,Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I couldbefull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guidesarelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and putguideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guidesonthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines withthestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takespositionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt onthefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward ontheleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when arodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just inneighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not faceup. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 3 11:27:46 1999 Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod Russ,"Meaning and significance of clicking". I like that.First you need to further identify the problem. Your email doesn't makeclearwhether the clicking is from a loose NS/Cane connection or from a loosefit withthe male ferrule. A simple test would be to hold the butt section by theferruleand wag it up and down. If you don't hear/feel the click then it wouldindicateeither the male ferrule was loose in the female, or the male is loose onthe wood(as opposed to "a male loose in the woods" for which you should consultTonyYoung). A candle stub will permit you to get another year's fishing out ofit, ifthe male is loose in the female.If the female is loose on the wood, you have two alternatives: Chairlokorremoval-and replacement.1/ Chairlok - The F-18 will have top quality waterproof ferrules, soyouwould need to remove the windings. Heat the ferrule over an alcohol lampuntilunpleasantly hot. Saturate the area around the serrations with theChairlok.Wiggle the ferrule slightly in all directions, giving space for the Chairloktoenter. Wait several hours and test for clicking. 2/ Removal - If you must remove the female, you will probably finditnecessary after removing (driving in or pulling out) the pin, to heat theferrule.Old ferrule cement can be pretty tough, but it softens nicely under heat..Don'tworry about replacing the pin, IMHO, the pin is only there as a last resort.Ijust removed and replaced all the ferrules on a 7' 4/2 valise rod. It tookonly 15minutes per ferrule to drive the pin (get a good auto pin punch), heat andremovethe ferrule, clean, apply new ferrule cement, and, using the alcohol lamp,pressthe ferrule back on.Best regards,ReedP.S. - Ferrule cement is really easy to work with and permits easyremoval later.We have had many discussions regarding adhesives for ferrules, check thearchivesbefore deciding for yourself on bonding technology.P.P.S. - Edwards would sometimes shim the cane with brown paper beforeinstallingthe ferrule. Watch for this. from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sun Jan 3 11:29:58 1999 (8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id CAA06861; Mon, 4 Jan1999 02:29:46 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Truncated or Standard Ferrules???? Hello Rick, I am making truncated super swiss type ferrules for my own use usinglathe. I put my opinion embeded in your questions below; Max Rick Crenshaw wrote: List, I know that this was discussed 6 or 8 months ago, but I'm hoping forupdated information (perhaps more have tried truncated ferrules sincethen). I am thinking of using truncated ferrules on 3 pc rods. I'dlove to hear responses on the following: 1) What is your opinion of truncated ferrules vs standard ferrules? Truncated is lighter in weight, so doesn't affect to rod action toomuch, especially on 3pc rods. When using longer ferrule on 3pc rod and when the rod makes an ark,ferrule portions do not bend naturally. It means the rod blank may havesome strange stress near the foots of ferrules. In some cases, holding rod blank in shorter length within female ferrulemay endure against bending moment more than holding longer length ofblank in the ferrule. When a rod bends very much, serration of shorter ferrule may have morepressure of bending. So I turn the serration part with taper (thick to thin gradually)instead of step down. It is easier to have a break otherwise atserration portion when the rod bend with a huge fish. 2) If you DO use truncated ferrules, is there a rod length / weightlimit to which you would restrict their use? I do not know the limit of weight. When I use truncated on next #6rods, I will make the wall of female ferrule a littler thicker.I have no problem using truncated on 8' #4 3pieces (Jim Payne 200) and7'6" #4/#5 3pieces (Shenandoah Supreme). 3) Have you ever had a bad experience with truncated ferrules? No bad experience yet. 4) What advantages have you experienced using truncated ferrules? It is easier to make. Drilling a deep hole is a big matter on lathe. Truncated has shorter length of hole so it is easier to drill. Thanks in advance. I think there are others out here who wouldappreciate the advice and opinions of you experience rodmakers outthere. Rick C. -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from Anachemrpo@aol.com Sun Jan 3 11:44:26 1999 Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod In a message dated 99-01-03 10:53:25 EST, dpeaston@wzrd.com writes: Thanks, I should have looked there first. I dug out my copy and it seems tocover it nicely. Thanks to all who responded. I'll investigate it a little closer and tell youwhat I decide. Russ Lavigne from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Jan 3 12:10:28 1999 MAA19040 Subject: test nmsg from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Sun Jan 3 12:51:52 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA62BC;Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:51:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks. Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. Onewasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench) I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method. Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Just a thought that struck me when I read your remark about usingwinebottlecorks; has anyone ever tried birch bark for this purpose? I know that thisstuffis used in Scandinavia to make knife grips. A friend of mine has seen itand saidit looks alright. Maybe an idea to get around buying scarce and overpriced,quality cork rings. Rens Oosthoek from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 3 13:16:47 1999 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Rens,Hmmmm, very interesting....We'd better be on the lookout for SOMETHINGbefore the cork rivals the ferrules as ersatz jewellry in price! I don'tlike paying half a reelseat for a handle.Art At 07:46 PM 1/3/99 +0100, F. Keulen wrote: Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks. Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. Onewasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench)I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method.Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Just a thought that struck me when I read your remark about usingwinebottlecorks; has anyone ever tried birch bark for this purpose? I know that thisstuffis used in Scandinavia to make knife grips. A friend of mine has seen itand saidit looks alright. Maybe an idea to get around buying scarce and overpriced,quality cork rings. Rens Oosthoek from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 3 13:44:12 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Rod tapers Darryl and the list.I've had a few requests for some of the tapers I use, so here goes:8' for 7 wgt: 0"-.066, 5"-.084, 10"-.100, 15"-.118, 20"- .134,25"-.150, 30"-.166----11/64ths ferrule-----35"-.184, 40"-.200, 45"- .216,50"-.234, 55"-.250, 60"-.266------18/64ths ferrule------65"-.284, 70"- .300,75"-.316, 80"-.334. 85"-.350, 96"- .354 straight line taper 71/2' for 5wgt: 0"-.062, 5"-.084, 10"-.096, 15"-.108, 20"-.122,25"-.136, 30"-.150, 35"-.164, 40"-.180, 45"-.192, 50"-.208, 55"-.220,60"-.242, 65"- .268, 70"-.282, 75"-.304, 90"-.310. 13/64ths ferrule straightline taper 71/2' for 5wgt: 0"-.065, 5"-.082, 10"-.102, 15"-.118, 20"-.134,25"-.150, 30"-.165, 35"-.184, 40"-.201, 45"-.219, 50"-.234, 55"-.242,60"-.255, 65"- .262, 70"-.272, 75"-.282, 90"-.282 Shadow graph of PYPara 15 71/2' for a 3wgt 0"-.062, 5"-.064, 10"-.083, 15"-.100, 20"-.116,25"-.130, 30"-.142, 35"-.158, 40"-.172, 45"-.184, 50"-.198, 55"-.212,60"-.224, 65"- .238, 70"-.252, 75"-.266, 80"-.280, 90"-,280 Modified from a7' 9" 7' for 5 or 6 wgt. 0"-.063, 5"-.080, 10"-.100, 15"-.116, 20"-.130,25"-.143, 30"-.156, 35"-.169, 40"-.181, 45"-.195, 50"-.207, 55"-.218,60"-.231, 65"- .145, 70"-.260, 75"-.290, 84"-.298 I use Urac 185 and flame my rods, usually with no extra heattreatment. If I build a light colored cane rod I heat treat 15 min @375 degF. Hank W. from cattanac@wmis.net Sun Jan 3 13:47:09 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) withSMTP id TAA19722; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:51:04 GMT Subject: Re: Truncated or Standard Ferrules???? Rick -The tradition is to use truncated ferrules on 3 piece rods - many of ushave done it for years (at both the upper and lower ferrule) - and there aresome of us that use them on lighter (#3 weight or less) 2 piece rods aswell. The only sacrafice is that of a shorter seating dimension.FYI - today most folks prefer 3 piece rods. One of the reasons is thatthe airlines are clamping down on carry on baggage dimensions - a 7'6" 3piece rod tube will walk on to most airlines without question.Personally I have used truncated ferrules from the 8/64 size to the17/64 size without ever having a problem - my personal 6' 3" 2 piece hastruncated ferrules and after 16 years of abuse the ferrules might getchanged this winter - the problem goes back to not have having beenproperlyfitted years ago.They are a bit cheaper as well Snowed in in CasnoviaWayne from ljrp@penn.com Sun Jan 3 15:02:36 1999 Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod Hey guys I heard Wayne C is going to the fly fishing show in Maryland onJan 16 17th reed wrote: Russ,"Meaning and significance of clicking". I like that.First you need to further identify the problem. Your email doesn'tmake clearwhether the clicking is from a loose NS/Cane connection or from a loosefit withthe male ferrule. A simple test would be to hold the butt section by theferruleand wag it up and down. If you don't hear/feel the click then it wouldindicateeither the male ferrule was loose in the female, or the male is loose onthe wood(as opposed to "a male loose in the woods" for which you should consultTonyYoung). A candle stub will permit you to get another year's fishing out ofit, ifthe male is loose in the female.If the female is loose on the wood, you have two alternatives: Chairlokorremoval-and replacement.1/ Chairlok - The F-18 will have top quality waterproof ferrules, soyouwould need to remove the windings. Heat the ferrule over an alcohol lampuntilunpleasantly hot. Saturate the area around the serrations with theChairlok.Wiggle the ferrule slightly in all directions, giving space for theChairlok toenter. Wait several hours and test for clicking. 2/ Removal - If you must remove the female, you will probably finditnecessary after removing (driving in or pulling out) the pin, to heat theferrule.Old ferrule cement can be pretty tough, but it softens nicely under heat..Don'tworry about replacing the pin, IMHO, the pin is only there as a lastresort. Ijust removed and replaced all the ferrules on a 7' 4/2 valise rod. It tookonly 15minutes per ferrule to drive the pin (get a good auto pin punch), heat andremovethe ferrule, clean, apply new ferrule cement, and, using the alcohol lamp,pressthe ferrule back on.Best regards,ReedP.S. - Ferrule cement is really easy to work with and permits easyremoval later.We have had many discussions regarding adhesives for ferrules, checkthe archivesbefore deciding for yourself on bonding technology.P.P.S. - Edwards would sometimes shim the cane with brown paperbefore installingthe ferrule. Watch for this. from santiago@ricochet.net Sun Jan 3 16:09:37 1999 Subject: tom morgan hand mill hello all, i have a tom morgan hand mill for sale with a ton of extras. pleaseemail me directly for details. santiago@ricochet.net from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Sun Jan 3 16:22:16 1999 Subject: Lathe Hello List,Are there any way we could fit the ferrules without using a lathe? I amjust trying to get aound from buying a lathe. Thanks.Andy from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Jan 3 16:40:19 1999 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Sturat Did not see a reply to below - guess we were too busy drinking ourfavoritebeverages. Really during the winter it or getting ready for winter - now that itis here - toclean up your gear and store it properly for a period of time that it willnot be used. I would take you rod out of the tube and hang the bag with the rod upin a warm dry place. I would wipe the rod down first and apply a bit of yourfavorite paste wax if desired. It is also a good time to clean and service your lines andreels. If youhave silk lines - or even with plastic - strip off the reel - clean the lineand put in a paper bag - close / label it and it will be ready for next spring. In yourspare time youcan make a few leaders and such. By spring you are ready to do. I would notadvisekeeping a rod stored for a prolong period in a metal tube - especially ifyou do not remember if it was dry or not when you closed it up. Chris Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tube withthosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Regards Chris from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Jan 3 16:44:28 1999 "LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV" Subject: Re: Lathe Andy Just use the mill bastard file and take a couple of swipes at each corner - work your way around the blank slowly and you will get a goodfit. Ihave my students fit the ferrules this way (for same reason youmentioned) sothey can do it at home. They have gotten very good results and not many problems. Chris On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:23:52 -0400, ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello List,Are there any way we could fit the ferrules without using a lathe? I amjust trying to get aound from buying a lathe. Thanks.Andy from Anachemrpo@aol.com Sun Jan 3 16:59:21 1999 Subject: Ferrule click on F-18 Well, I went back and palyed with the clicking Edwards f-18 and I believethatthe male ferrule in the second section is tapping the inside of the femaleferrule ("This is a problem?" he said.) of the butt section . I also went back and looked at Mike Sinclairs rod restoration book andfoundhis reference to this type of problem. I'm going to think about it a bit more, and play with the rod a bit more,before I go whacking it with pieces of lead or fitting it into the chuck of alathe. Thanks again to all who replied. Your semi-realtime input is a big help forthis type of question, as opposed to having to remember that it's in a bookonthe bookshelf next to me. ;-) Sometimes it the "forest for the trees" thing... Russ Lavigne from teekay35@interlynx.net Sun Jan 3 18:05:31 1999 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list I am experimenting with cedar bark (mulch from my garden) to make grips. Got the idea from some cherry bark samples someone put out on display atRoscoe. Haven't put this on a rod yet, but the sample I've made looks likeit will function well. The finished color is red/cedar and wouldcomplement a dark rod. ----------From: F. Keulen Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Thoughts for a slow listDate: Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:46 PM Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey guys, has anyone tried making cork grips out of wine bottle corks.Iwas wondering if this had been experimented with. I had two ideas. One wasto cut the cork the way we cut bamboo and glueing them together. Afterplaying with a few corks (guess what day they appeared on my workbench) I sawthat the diameter would be about 1.5" if you use the 60 degree method. Thisseems to small for handles. The other way I thought of was to cut thecorkinto retangular pieces and glue them up in a staggerd fashion. I knowthat Icould produce any size and lenghth with this method but all those gluelineswould detract from it. Second question: Should we store our bamboo rods in a sealed tubewiththosede-humidifying crystals to keep them as dry as possible. Seems thatmoistureis our biggest enemy if we want a crisp casting rod. Happy New Year to all and oh yeaGO VOLSStuart S. Miller Just a thought that struck me when I read your remark about usingwinebottlecorks; has anyone ever tried birch bark for this purpose? I know thatthis stuffis used in Scandinavia to make knife grips. A friend of mine has seen itand saidit looks alright. Maybe an idea to get around buying scarce andoverpriced,quality cork rings. Rens Oosthoek from Canerods@aol.com Sun Jan 3 18:27:58 1999 Subject: Re: Ferrule click and fishing rod In a message dated 1/2/99 4:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,Anachemrpo@aol.comwrites: I have a Edwards Bristol Built f-18, 8.5', three piece that is in reallygoodshape except the female ferrule in the first section has a click to it. I would like to fish this rod, and since it is otherwise in good originalshape I'd rather not compromise the originality by taking the wraps andferrule off to fix the click, unless I'm endangering the rod and justasking Advice on the meaning and significance of clicking at the ferrule to rodintegrity is sought. Thank you in advance, Russ Lavigne Russ, If the ferrule has a pin through it, maybe try removing it (pin) andinjectingsome thinned epoxy into the gap between the ferrule and cane beforereinstalling the pin. NOTE: I've never tried this with a ferrule. I did inject thinned epoxy underabaitcaster reelseat. (through the cork) Worked just fine. Don Burns from BarbRain@aol.com Sun Jan 3 18:46:17 1999 Subject: Re: Immortal Tapers To date I have built several of the 5' 6" one piece versions. By stretchingthe butt three inches and then by six inches, 5' 9" and 6' variations wereproduced. One of the 5' 9" models has become my constant companion. Athreeweight is on my list as a someday project. As a small stream do- everythingtype rod, it will make you smile. Yes Bill, for diversity ( I'm not oftenpoliticly correct) it should be considered. George Rainville PSPerhaps as a five side. from jczimny@dol.net Sun Jan 3 19:13:46 1999 Subject: Re: Lathe Sure, just spin them on some very fine abrasive until they fit. You don'tneed a lathe for this. But the use of one does speed the process. If you arepatient, all will go well.John Z ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello List,Are there any way we could fit the ferrules without using a lathe? I amjust trying to get aound from buying a lathe. Thanks.Andy from mrj@aa.net Sun Jan 3 20:01:19 1999 Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:00:59 -0800 0800 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: RE: Spline / spine Terry,I straighten my rods after I get them out of the glue but I still (always) have one side that will droop more than the rest. I have a feeling that when I place this droop either up or down, (as I said I prefer down) that it also becomes the straightest side of the rod.Note: my method of using a vibration test to place my guides, as near as I can tell, belonged to the late Dawn Holbrook. A rod builder in the Northwest.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spline / spine Martin,generally the rod action in fly fishing is in an eliptical pattern. Fromcasting to mending line to setting hooks is not a mechanical one plane action.I put my guides on what looks the straightest when sighting down the rod.Icannot remember any complaints about the guides being 60 degs or so off!T. Ackland Martin Jensen wrote: Jon,I locate my guides by placing the butt end of my blank section on a sturdytable and then bouncing my finger up and down on the rod section about twoor three inches out past the table. I do this in turn, with each flat facedown on the table. I look at the tip of the section, and on one (usuallytwo) flat there will be a noticeable difference in how the tip bouncesaround. The tip will start to bounce up and down like you are pushing therod, but then it will start to rotate and bounce around in a circularpattern. (I place my guides on the flat that has the closest bounce to anup and down motion that I can find. Usually, if you get a fairlyperpendicular bounce on one flat you will get similar results on theopposite flat also. Then I hold the rod section straight out and sight downthe length of it. I used to rotate the rod so that it had the least droopusing only the two flats that had the best up and down bounce, and place myguides on the opposite side. I have reversed this procedure simply becauseI like the way the rod casts better.)All this indicates to me that there are stronger or weaker sides to thebamboo as you have mentioned. Or at least maybe density differences (whichI doubt). I don't look for a spline in the traditional sense but my methodstill finds the casting plane that is most natural to a forward andbackward cast.Martin R. Jensen -----Original Message-----From: Jon Lintvet [SMTP:jlintvet@clarityconnect.com]Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Spline / spine No big deal...I just believe since we are using natural materials, andnothing is ever perfect, a spline could be found. from a planingstandpoint, all it would take is a couple thousandths over/under on onespline over the entire length of a rod. I don't know about everyone else,but I only look at the dimensions in 5" increments for the most part.Thereis a whole lot of cane in between those 5" marks. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 9:35 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine If there is so much variance in cane what is the point of a taper databaseorrod design software?I can understand there being a difference in different species of bambooandperhaps very small differences from culm to culm. I cannot bepersuadedintobelieving there is a difference from one side of a culm to the other.I have never found a soft side on my fishing poles. I control moisturecontent,heat treatment and glue curing very, very carefully.I just call it as I find it, sorry if it does not coincide with your viewsandexperiences.T.Ackland Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shotatcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank sectionwithoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possibletoproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on the weakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod.Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time.And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside ofark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel isthekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" willhelpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It willalsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guidestapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for a fewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understandthewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the oppositeoftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flatofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It alsodoesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while castingtowardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next tonexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt endofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside ofthecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That'swhatIwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curvebecause,Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I couldbefull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guidesarelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and putguideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guidesonthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines withthestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt onthefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward ontheleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when arodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just inneighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not faceup. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Jan 3 20:39:58 1999 don") by eeyore.eon.netwith SMTP id ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:39:46 -0700 Subject: Test - please ignore from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun Jan 3 20:53:51 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id PAA05196; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:53:17 +1300 Subject: Re: Spline / spine Anyone thinking of following Tony's advise can be sure of a bed in one ofthe better trout areas in New zealand if they need it . Iank PS Tony , I was tempted to point out that the law in NZ until 5 years agosaid that any trout under 15" had to be put back as they were " undersize", but I thought our USA friends may be upset . At 12:57 PM 2/01/99 +0800, Tony Young wrote:Geeez guys,if all you want is to catch a measly 20"er on fly get on a plane and getthe to NZ and while you're there take a few Salmon while you're there.In fact try for the Big Three. A 20+" trout, Salmon and a Red Deer in aday. I've done it the hard way ie. without a guide. It's like I've writen before with the $US/$Aussie, $US/$Kiwi as it is it'scomparable with placing a sure thing bet, you know you'll get a 50%returnon your money! Tony On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Jon Lintvet wrote: No way...We are dealing with a natural material. I have a better shot atcatching a 20+ trout (not in my lifetime) than believing for a secondthereare no weak/strong spots in every rod built. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:21 PMSubject: Re: Spline / spine Max,John Alden Knight, a famous US FF journalist, fly caster and roddesigner.( I thinkhe helped in the design of the parabolic action) once remarked that youcould notfind a high side on a Garrison stick. A stick is a blank section withoutguides. Onceyou put guides in you have introduced an imbalance.The accuracy that is possible with a plane and formers it is possibletoproduce TerryMax Satoh wrote: Terry, Thanks for opinion. It is especially right for low weight (#1,#2) rod at very thin tipportion to kink when rolled down. So in summary, I understood this issue like below; As Paul Lyon suggested, guides may be better to be put on theweakestflat (of-course inside of the ark) for lower wt or slow action rod. Iwant to use Paul's Spline finding method next time. And may be better to be put on the strongest flat (inside of ark) forfighting rod like for stealhead or for a poor back caster like me.(probably for more weight rod of #4 or up). Any further comments? Max Terence Ackland wrote: Rods built from one culm do not have a spine if planed accuratelyandthefinished sections are absolutely straight and without twists.If you roll a section that is not straight the 'jump' you feel is thekink. The'weak' side is actually the concave of the bow. Try it.T. Ackland David wrote: Dear Max To do the best job for your customer, it helps to know how he/shewill beusing the rod. Putting the strongest side on the "belly" will helpthe rodpull sinking or sink-tip lines out for the backcast. It will alsohelp setthe hook in hard- jawed fishes. Any rod I suspect of being forSteelheadwill get this treatment. I always try a rod with the guides tapedonbefore wrapping them permanently. Sometimes I do this for afewweeks,trying different combinations (most of my rods have threesections) most satisfying effect. Davy Paul, and all Paul thank you for response. What I questioned seems a little different. Yes, I understand thewayyou take.The method you mentioned is to find the weakest flat in mywordingandput guides on the opposite flat.(this is the weakest flat in my definition.) It is the opposite oftheweakest flat and does not mean the strongest flat (IMHO). I am bending each section by pressing with my parm and findingthestrongest kick back from the blank, then I make the strongestflatupward of my rod (spline). I put guides on the opposite flat ofthisspline.(this is the strongest flat in my definition.) It also doesnotmean the guide surface is the weakest, but weaker for sure.It assures that the upper surface of the rod while casting towardback,is strongest. But if there is a weakest flat next or next to nexttothe strongest flat, the rod will not show the guide surface upwhenitis leaned down. Is my method incorrect? What is the true theory? Appreciate your advices. Max Paul Lyon wrote: Max: I was always taught to spine a rod thus: Stand the section of the rod you want to spine up perpendiculrtothefloorwith the tip end down. With your index finger on the butt end ofthesection, press down toward the floor. Whichever way it bendsreveals thespine. I was always taught to put the guides on the inside of thecurve -the strong side, as you call it. But if you want a stiffer,strongeraction, put the guides on the outside of the curve. That's what Iwastaught. Of course, I could be full of it. I prefer putting the guides on the inside of the curve because, Ireason,that's the way the rod wants to bend and you should use thatstructuraltendency in service of the forward cast. There again, I could befull ofit. But that's my theory. Hope I helped. Paul Lyonpaullyon@epix.net Max Satoh wrote: Dear list, Please advise how I should decide the flat on which guides arelocated. There are two thoughts. 1. One is to find the strongest elasticity flat and put guideson theopposit side.2. Two is to find the weakest elasticity flat and put guides onthesurface. I am taking positon of 1. above. It can pick up lines with thestrongest tention of the rod. So does it when a big fish ishooked.But there is some funky guy in my friends who takes positionof2 andplace my rod tip on the back of a chair and put the butt on thefloor.And he criticized that the guides are not facing upward on theleaningrod on the chair. (as weakest flat always face up when a rodisleanedon with angle.) The 1. and 2 above not always lies on opposite sides to eachother.Thestrongest and weakest flats sometimes lies just in neighbour,side byside. In such case, the flat which has guides does not face up. Which is the best way? Or any other way of determining theguidesurface? Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHomePage(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169 --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 3 21:32:39 1999 Subject: Re: Ferrule click on F-18 Russ,As I said, a candle stub will give you several years of good fishing outofthat ferrule before you need think of more drastic measures. I fished onerod for7 years with a loose male ferrule; just a good rub all over the ferrule withwaxbefore starting the day, and it was tight all day.Best regards,Reed Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Well, I went back and palyed with the clicking Edwards f-18 and Ibelieve thatthe male ferrule in the second section is tapping the inside of the femaleferrule ("This is a problem?" he said.) of the butt section . I also went back and looked at Mike Sinclairs rod restoration book andfoundhis reference to this type of problem. I'm going to think about it a bit more, and play with the rod a bit more,before I go whacking it with pieces of lead or fitting it into the chuck ofalathe. Thanks again to all who replied. Your semi-realtime input is a big helpforthis type of question, as opposed to having to remember that it's in abook onthe bookshelf next to me. ;-) Sometimes it the "forest for the trees" thing... Russ Lavigne from drinkr@voicenet.com Sun Jan 3 22:39:25 1999 0000 (207.103.143.46) Subject: Oven Thermostats boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE3771.352B12C0" 0000000077C8306BD9A1D211A978481F06C10000A41C2000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE3771.352B12C0 Ive just gotten around to completing my oven and was wondering aboutanothersafety issue. Is the copper wire that connects the temperature sensor tothe thermostat allowed to contact the metal housing of the oven? If notwhatis the best way to shield the wire from the housing? Also my thermostathasabout 3 feet of copper wire connected to the sensor what should I do withall of this coiled up copper wire. By the way the oven is one like Waynerecommends. Thanks in advance David Rinker ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE3771.352B12C0 name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE3771.352B12C0-- from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Mon Jan 4 04:38:27 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4859;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:36:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Ted Knott wrote: I am experimenting with cedar bark (mulch from my garden) to makegrips.Got the idea from some cherry bark samples someone put out on displayatRoscoe. Haven't put this on a rod yet, but the sample I've made looks likeit will function well. The finished color is red/cedar and wouldcomplement a dark rod. Ted, Could you tell us something about the procedure? Rens from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jan 4 06:16:57 1999 GAA20618 Subject: Messages To Any or All, With the recent changes to the list. Do posted messages show up in thesenders mail? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Jan 4 06:24:44 1999 (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id MAA18417 for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:28:37GMT 07:14:46 -0500 Subject: RE: Oven Thermostats =_NextPart_000_01BE37B1.E879FB80" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE37B1.E879FB80 Dave -The capillary tube is the connector between the sensing bulb and the=stat it can touch metal without concern - I usually wire the bulb to the =hardware cloth shelf and then coil (3" dia) the remaining tube just =below where it enters down from the top at the shelf level - to keep the =coil neat you might use a couple pieces of copper(bare) to bind the coil =loops together------ =_NextPart_000_01BE37B1.E879FB80 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 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE37B1.E879FB80-- from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jan 4 06:36:50 1999 GAA24875 Subject: Cane Selection To All, In light of the recent discussions about power fibers and with theknowledge that very good rods have been built with no regard to theparticular culm a strip came from. I was wondering what the perceptionsof the list in general were as to strip selection. Eschewing the effect of nodes, does it make any difference at all wherea strip comes from on a culm? I realize that you can come across stripsthat are noodles and therefore worthless, but if the cane in question isresilient and has sufficient power fibers, does it make any differencewhere it was on the culm? Does cane have any inherent characteristicsbecause of its location at the base, middle or top of a culm? Is node placement completely cosmetic? I recall reading in the Archivesthat an individual built a rod with the nodes all in one location.Surely if nodes constituted a weak spot then this rod would fail atfirst use. Node placement at or near tip. What are the experiences of modern rods?Have any current builders placed a node within an inch or two of the tipof a rod that has received a modicum of use? If so, what were theeffects? Looking forward to any and all responses. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from dickay@alltel.net Mon Jan 4 06:46:09 1999 GAA01239; Subject: Re: Oven Thermostats Dave, The sensor tube can contact the metal housing of the oven. If youlook in the oven in the kitchen, you'll probably find that the bulb is heldwith metal clips to the oven wall. Leave as much of the sensor tubing coiled up as possible. It is tubingwith a very small inside diameter. The bulb contains a gas. When the bulbis heated the gas expands and presses on a diaphragrm tripping the switchto off. When the gas cools the pressure goes down and the diaphragmreturns to normal and the switch turns on. This is all held in thephenolic housing of the control. The switch is on a cam and is adjusted inor out towards the diaphragm by the cam. Hope this helps.Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----------From: David K. Rinker Subject: Oven ThermostatsDate: Sunday, January 03, 1999 10:31 PM Ive just gotten around to completing my oven and was wondering aboutanothersafety issue. Is the copper wire that connects the temperature sensor tothe thermostat allowed to contact the metal housing of the oven? If notwhatis the best way to shield the wire from the housing? Also mythermostathasabout 3 feet of copper wire connected to the sensor what should I dowithall of this coiled up copper wire. By the way the oven is one like Waynerecommends. Thanks in advance David Rinker from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Mon Jan 4 08:47:44 1999 Subject: pvc dip tube Hello All,I have a question about the method of PVC dip tube with the drainage tubeon the bottom. How are we able to see where the guides on the rods areandstop for a moment at the guide to let the varnish drain from the guides?.Thanks.Andy from stpete@netten.net Mon Jan 4 10:12:48 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA09463 for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:12:32 Subject: [Fwd: Re: pvc dip tube] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------26BA620D7DC2 Sorry, I hit the 'reply' button which only sends the message to the originalposter. I thought others might be interested in this response. Rick C. --------------26BA620D7DC2 Subject: Re: pvc dip tube Andy, I think I found a solution to that problem. Although I don't use thedrain method, I think this would work. Look in the lighting section of the hardware store. There you can findclear polycarbonate tubes for protecting flourescent light bulbs. The 4foot tubes cost $1.99 each at my hardware store. I then went to theplumbing section and found that these tubes fit 1-1/4" PVC fittings. They glue up to PVC fittings using regular PVC cement. These tubes are not as thick as PVC and care should be used if storingvarnish in the tubes, but they work fine otherwise. I use the more conventional dipping apparatus. I cut about a 10"section of these tubes and used these on my existing 1-1/2" PVC diptubes so that I could see when the guides reach the top of the varnish.I simply cut some of my existing tube off, and used 1-1/2" connectorsand a 1-1/2"x1-1/4" bushing to insert the clear tube into. A 1-1/4" capand some plastic food wrap seals the whole deal up and an old dark sockover the top keeps the UV light out. Give it a try. I know the tube are easy to find in 4' lengths. Iassume they make them in 2' and 8' as well. If you need a longerlength, you can always use a 1-1/4" PVC connector to put a 2'and a 4'together or whatever. Rick C. ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello All,I have a question about the method of PVC dip tube with the drainagetubeon the bottom. How are we able to see where the guides on the rods areandstop for a moment at the guide to let the varnish drain from theguides?.Thanks.Andy --------------26BA620D7DC2-- from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jan 4 10:45:43 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id KAA11020; Mon, 4 Jan (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id Subject: Re: Payne 101 Rens, The mistake was mine. I'm not sure what happened but the rod I hadas the Payne 101 was something else. I've corrected it. If anyone else finds odd things don't be shy about pointing them out!......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, F. Keulen wrote: Could anyone account for the strange thing that there are two completelydifferent tapers for the Payne 101 in the Rodmakers taper archives andthe Stetzer taper archive. The differences must be down to a mistake ofsome sort as the rods they would produce are totally and utterly unlike. Rens Oosthoek from FlyTyr@southshore.com Mon Jan 4 11:06:53 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21792 for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:08:23-0600 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: pvc dip tube] Rick,Thanks for the info, Will have to look foe some. I had planned to add asmallclear tube attached on the top and bottom with fittings like a gauge on asteamboiler. This would not let me see the guides but would let me see thatdrainrate.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Rick Crenshaw wrote: Sorry, I hit the 'reply' button which only sends the message to the originalposter. I thought others might be interested in this response. Rick C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Re: pvc dip tubeDate: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:03:38 -0600From: Rick Crenshaw References: Andy, I think I found a solution to that problem. Although I don't use thedrain method, I think this would work. Look in the lighting section of the hardware store. There you can findclear polycarbonate tubes for protecting flourescent light bulbs. The 4foot tubes cost $1.99 each at my hardware store. I then went to theplumbing section and found that these tubes fit 1-1/4" PVC fittings.They glue up to PVC fittings using regular PVC cement. These tubes are not as thick as PVC and care should be used if storingvarnish in the tubes, but they work fine otherwise. I use the more conventional dipping apparatus. I cut about a 10"section of these tubes and used these on my existing 1-1/2" PVC diptubes so that I could see when the guides reach the top of the varnish.I simply cut some of my existing tube off, and used 1-1/2" connectorsand a 1-1/2"x1-1/4" bushing to insert the clear tube into. A 1-1/4" capand some plastic food wrap seals the whole deal up and an old dark sockover the top keeps the UV light out. Give it a try. I know the tube are easy to find in 4' lengths. Iassume they make them in 2' and 8' as well. If you need a longerlength, you can always use a 1-1/4" PVC connector to put a 2'and a 4'together or whatever. Rick C. ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello All,I have a question about the method of PVC dip tube with the drainagetubeon the bottom. How are we able to see where the guides on the rods areandstop for a moment at the guide to let the varnish drain from theguides?.Thanks.Andy from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Mon Jan 4 11:44:43 1999 Subject: Transparent PVC pipe Hello All,After my previous posted questions about PVC dip tube, I found in the MSCcatalogue transparent PVC pipe. They are selling them in 8' tubes X 1 1/4" Andy from harry37@epix.net Mon Jan 4 12:44:12 1999 SMTP id NAA02844; Subject: Re: Transparent PVC pipe ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello All,After my previous posted questions about PVC dip tube, I found in theMSCcatalogue transparent PVC pipe. They are selling them in 8' tubes X 11/4" Andy All, Has anyone tried the plastic shatter guards that are made forfluorescent light tubes. Plusses: clear, cheap, available atelectrical/home suppliersMinuses: Thin wall, unsure if caps exist or can be adapted, unsure ifmaterial will deteriorate when exposed to varnishes. Anyone have any experiences? Greg from sshorb@ozip.net Mon Jan 4 13:31:39 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-55785U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:32:57 -0600 Subject: Re: Cane Selection All; I am also interested in any information on this and in some more basicinformation. What are the characteristics of a desirable culm, in moredetail than is generally available? I.e..; what is/are sufficient powerfibers, straightness, thickness, indications a culm will produce twistedor excessively crooked strips, etc. What you're looking for and judgingwhen y'all are picking the "perfect" culm. What are theadvantages/disadvantages of a small dia. culm vs a large dia. culm,other than price? TIA for all info posted. Skip from paullyon@epix.net Mon Jan 4 15:09:10 1999 ESMTP id QAA16505; Subject: Re: Messages mac-creator="4D4F5353" Yes, messages I've posted have been showing up in my e-mail inbox. Paul Lyon Steve wrote: To Any or All, With the recent changes to the list. Do posted messages show up in thesenders mail? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 4 15:33:36 1999 216.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: test BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_c9NGnXTABO0DHZzvVaJu5g)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_c9NGnXTABO0DHZzvVaJu5g) Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_c9NGnXTABO0DHZzvVaJu5g) Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_c9NGnXTABO0DHZzvVaJu5g)-- from stpete@netten.net Mon Jan 4 16:53:13 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08316 for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:53:02 Subject: PVC / Flourescent light guard tubes List, The clear polycarbonate flourescent light guard tubes I found at PaylessCashways Hardware are stiff and sturdy enough to use for varnishing. They are manufactured by a company called LITEWAY. There is no addresson the label. P/N is 74-4812. These are not thick as schedule 40 PVC,but they are stiff enough to use if handled with care. They fit 1- 1/4"fittings almost perfectly. I have been informed by a new maker here in town that there are muchflimsier versions of these guard tubes out there. If you find a flimsyguard and don't trust it, by all means DON'T use it on myrecommendation. Keep looking. I bet someone in your area has somesturdier guard tubes. Rick from oakmere@carol.net Mon Jan 4 19:00:30 1999 Subject: RE: WebSite Hi Folks: I just joined and found you have a great website. Just in the process ofrebuilding a 1950's South Bend #346. Looks like it will come out as about7 ft 11 inches. Please so far with the progress. Using Kirkfeld andSinclair for guidance. Best, FrankFrank PaulPiscator from tripp@olywa.net Mon Jan 4 22:58:08 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:57:43 -0800 Subject: Andy Royer Anyone have Andy's current e-mail address? I seem to have misplaced it. Thanks in advance, Mark from andy@w-link.net Mon Jan 4 23:05:38 1999 Subject: Re: Andy Royer I am here. Lot's of nice bamboo still available from Seattle. Regards, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax -----Original Message----- Subject: Andy Royer Anyone have Andy's current e-mail address? I seem to have misplaced it. Thanks in advance, Mark from spazz@choice.net Tue Jan 5 00:08:01 1999 BAA29938 Subject: ferrules Hi, I am restoring an older Japanese rod. It's an 8', 4 or 5 weight 3piece and was wondering where I might be able to find some ferrules.The rod is not that great so I'm looking for some pretty workmanlikeferrules. Any leads would be greatly appreciated. thanks, KP Burkhardt from Turbotrk@aol.com Tue Jan 5 00:15:15 1999 nap.overton@jcbradford.com,Maraidan@aol.com, rsnider@harbingercapital.com,gregoryunderwood@usm.edu, twwalker@msn.com,skkdvm@ebicom.net,sportsguy@msn.com, arogers@shelby.net, MrBestham@aol.com,tom_chalkley@fpl.com, drrandy@sccoast.net,sheliacarol@docres.com,sheliacarrol@docres.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, fbcwin@fsbnet.com,mevans@acxiom.com,stpete@netten.net, jonfun@univest.com Subject: go vols Sorry to waste the bandwidth but someone must do it Go VOLS!There is no longer an excuse! from chris@artistree.com Tue Jan 5 00:32:54 1999 Subject: Re: ferrules mac-creator="4D4F5353" Jan's Netcraft @ 1-800-NETCRAFT carries some plated brass ferrules forvery little money. from all the old Japanese Rods I seen here on theoffense to you...but I'm kind of dreading the day someone asks me torefinish one of these rods. I've been lucky so far. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com "Kevin P. Burkhardt" wrote: Hi, I am restoring an older Japanese rod. It's an 8', 4 or 5 weight 3piece and was wondering where I might be able to find some ferrules.The rod is not that great so I'm looking for some pretty workmanlikeferrules. Any leads would be greatly appreciated. thanks, KP Burkhardt from chris@artistree.com Tue Jan 5 00:39:59 1999 Subject: Re: ferrules (Again) mac-creator="4D4F5353" Lets try this again. Jan's Netcraft @ 1-800-NETCRAFT and Angler's Workshop @ 1-360-225- 9445carries some plated brass ferrules for very little money. from all theold Japanese Rods I seen here on the west coast they look like they areabout the same design/quality. Nooffense to you...but I'm kind of dreading the day someone asks me torefinish one of these rods. I've been lucky so far.--Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com "Kevin P. Burkhardt" wrote: Hi, I am restoring an older Japanese rod. It's an 8', 4 or 5 weight 3piece and was wondering where I might be able to find some ferrules.The rod is not that great so I'm looking for some pretty workmanlikeferrules. Any leads would be greatly appreciated. thanks, KP Burkhardt from chris@artistree.com Tue Jan 5 00:50:47 1999 Subject: Re: ferrules (Again) mac-creator="4D4F5353" I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen an olderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 at auctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished (wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazement thewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Chris Wohlford wrote: Lets try this again. Jan's Netcraft @ 1-800-NETCRAFT and Angler's Workshop @ 1-360-225- 9445carries some plated brass ferrules for very little money. from all theold Japanese Rods I seen here on the west coast they look like they areabout the same design/quality. Nooffense to you...but I'm kind of dreading the day someone asks me torefinish one of these rods. I've been lucky so far.--Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com "Kevin P. Burkhardt" wrote: Hi, I am restoring an older Japanese rod. It's an 8', 4 or 5 weight 3piece and was wondering where I might be able to find some ferrules.The rod is not that great so I'm looking for some pretty workmanlikeferrules. Any leads would be greatly appreciated. thanks, KP Burkhardt from channer@hubwest.com Tue Jan 5 07:16:44 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A12AC101DE; Tue, 05 Jan 1999 06:18:34 MST Subject: Re: ferrules (Again) At 10:52 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen an olderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 at auctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished (wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazement thewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford chris;You should see the crap they want $150 or more for in the antique storesaround here. Decorators are running the price of these things way up, mostof what I see are worth about $5 for parts, if that much.Re: Japanese rods-Bear in mind what they were made for, thousands of G.I.'s returning hometogo fishing. I bet if we asked our friends in other countries, we would findthat all cultures have had their Montagues and H.I.'s John from harry37@epix.net Tue Jan 5 07:35:14 1999 SMTP id IAA02646; Subject: Re: Lathe ANDREW LUU wrote: Hello List,Are there any way we could fit the ferrules without using a lathe? I amjust trying to get aound from buying a lathe. Thanks.Andy Andy, Have you tried putting the ferrule in a drill chuck and polishing itwith fine grit wet/dry sandpaper and finishing it off with crocus oremery cloth? I have done this in the past and the two problems Iencountered were maintaining speed on the drill and keeping itstationary, but both can be solved with a little creativity or a helper.I founbd that if I went slowly and constantly checked fit, I didn't takeoff too much material and the ferrules fit with a really pleasing pop. Greg from harry37@epix.net Tue Jan 5 07:38:42 1999 SMTP id IAA05685 Subject: Re: Thoughts for a slow list Ted Knott wrote: I am experimenting with cedar bark (mulch from my garden) to makegrips.Got the idea from some cherry bark samples someone put out on displayatRoscoe. Haven't put this on a rod yet, but the sample I've made looks likeit will function well. The finished color is red/cedar and wouldcomplement a dark rod..... Ted---How do you do it? Greg from ljrp@penn.com Tue Jan 5 07:39:22 1999 nap.overton@jcbradford.com,Maraidan@aol.com, rsnider@harbingercapital.com,gregoryunderwood@usm.edu, twwalker@msn.com,skkdvm@ebicom.net,sportsguy@msn.com, arogers@shelby.net, MrBestham@aol.com,tom_chalkley@fpl.com, drrandy@sccoast.net,sheliacarol@docres.com,sheliacarrol@docres.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,fbcwin@fsbnet.com,mevans@acxiom.com, stpete@netten.net, jonfun@univest.comSubject: Re: go vols Any of you fellows interested in old fly tackle I have an emailablelist.. Great game last night. T Martain is awesome the never missedManning. Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Sorry to waste the bandwidth but someone must do it Go VOLS!There is no longer an excuse! from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jan 5 08:37:38 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Subject: Knurling tools Listmembers I seem to remember that some time ago several listmembers asked for aprovider of knurling tools- without success. Try this URL, a source will magically appear:http://www.kjh-tools.com regards Carsten from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Tue Jan 5 09:30:43 1999 Subject: source for aluminum drivewheels?. Hello All,Does anyone know a source for nice aluminum or brass drivewheele about6"Dia. Thanks. I am trying to make art out of a binder.Andy from darrell01@netzero.net Tue Jan 5 09:41:26 1999 (206.175.229.117) Subject: Re[2]: ferrules (Again) boundary="=PMail:=_0001@@jj476tCAWr9qKUDnRaOk" --=PMail:=_0001@@jj476tCAWr9qKUDnRaOk I've seen a lot of junk Japanese rods, but I've seen one or two that mightbe decent quality... Does anyone know what kind of cane they use andwho are some of the respected rod makers from Japan? I'm sure wecannotstereotype their rods as all inferior. I have one unmarked Japanese rodthat appears to be decent quality, not a Heddon mind you but better thana low end H-I. I'm curious though because it has aluminum ferrulesthough.=.. Darrell =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Re: ferrules (Again) At 10:52 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen an olderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 at auctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished (wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazement thewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford chris;You should see the crap they want $150 or more for in the antique storesaround here. Decorators are running the price of these things way up,mostof what I see are worth about $5 for parts, if that much.Re: Japaneserods-Bear in mind what they were made for, thousands of G.I.'s returning hometogo fishing. I bet if we asked our friends in other countries, we wouldfindthat all cultures have had their Montagues and H.I.'s John --=PMail:=_0001@@jj476tCAWr9qKUDnRaOk-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Jan 5 09:43:41 1999 1999 15:42:28 UT 1998)) id862566F0.0054C683 ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:25:58 -0600 Subject: Re: go vols What's a VOLS?-Ed Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/05/99 12:19:29 AM nap.overton@jcbradford.com, maraidan@aol.com,rsnider@harbingercapital.com, gregoryunderwood@usm.edu,twwalker@msn.com, skkdvm@ebicom.net, sportsguy@msn.com,arogers@shelby.net, mrbestham@aol.com, tom_chalkley@fpl.com,drrandy@sccoast.net, sheliacarol@docres.com,sheliacarrol@docres.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, fbcwin@fsbnet.com,mevans@acxiom.com,stpete@netten.net, jonfun@univest.com Subject: go vols Sorry to waste the bandwidth but someone must do it Go VOLS!There is no longer an excuse! from anglport@con2.com Tue Jan 5 10:30:49 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re[2]: Japanese rods All, I was just sitting here and wondering if Max is doing a slow burn (andChristian and his mentor). I think maybe we'd DEFINITELY better qualifyourstatements here before we inadvertantly insult one of our own who seemstobe making a damn-fine product. I HATE "politically correct" in all itsforms but I think here we're nudging the edge of civility a little withoutintending to.Art At 07:41 AM 1/5/99, Darrell Lee wrote:I've seen a lot of junk Japanese rods, but I've seen one or two that mightbe decent quality... Does anyone know what kind of cane they use andwho are some of the respected rod makers from Japan? I'm sure wecannotstereotype their rods as all inferior. I have one unmarked Japanese rodthat appears to be decent quality, not a Heddon mind you but better thana low end H-I. I'm curious though because it has aluminum ferrulesthough... Darrell ======================================== From: john channer Subject: Re: ferrules (Again)Date: 1/5/99 6:52 AM At 10:52 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen an olderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 at auctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished (wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazement thewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford chris;You should see the crap they want $150 or more for in the antique storesaround here. Decorators are running the price of these things way up,mostof what I see are worth about $5 for parts, if that much.Re: Japaneserods-Bear in mind what they were made for, thousands of G.I.'s returning hometogo fishing. I bet if we asked our friends in other countries, we wouldfindthat all cultures have had their Montagues and H.I.'s John from bills@nwlink.com Tue Jan 5 10:59:41 1999 Subject: C & H contact info boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE3885.FC56B7E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE3885.FC56B7E0 Can someone supply me contact information for C&H? I think they are in =San Diego and are a supplier of salvage items... like tools and small =motors. This may have been communicated over the list recently but I =missed it.Thanks,Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE3885.FC56B7E0 Can someone supply me contact information for = they are in San Diego and are a supplier of salvage items... like tools = missed it.Thanks,Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE3885.FC56B7E0-- from caneboy@xtn.net Tue Jan 5 11:18:06 1999 Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:17:28 -0500 Subject: Re: go vols Abbreviation for VOLUNTEERS. National Champs that is. Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: What's a VOLS?-Ed Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/05/99 12:19:29 AM nap.overton@jcbradford.com, maraidan@aol.com,rsnider@harbingercapital.com, gregoryunderwood@usm.edu,twwalker@msn.com, skkdvm@ebicom.net, sportsguy@msn.com,arogers@shelby.net, mrbestham@aol.com, tom_chalkley@fpl.com,drrandy@sccoast.net, sheliacarol@docres.com,sheliacarrol@docres.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, fbcwin@fsbnet.com,mevans@acxiom.com,stpete@netten.net, jonfun@univest.comcc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: go vols Sorry to waste the bandwidth but someone must do it Go VOLS!There is no longer an excuse! from caneboy@xtn.net Tue Jan 5 11:41:25 1999 Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:40:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Andy Royer Andy,When I tried your website, a Washington based world internetproviderservice site came up. Whats up? Andy Royer wrote: I am here. Lot's of nice bamboo still available from Seattle. Regards, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax -----Original Message-----From: Mark A. Tripp Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 9:04 PMSubject: Andy Royer Anyone have Andy's current e-mail address? I seem to have misplacedit. Thanks in advance, Mark from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jan 5 13:14:21 1999 (5.5.2407.0) just called H&R company and I was told that the prewired and assemblemotor and driver kit(solid state stepper motor controller kit) $39.50 will easily handleraising a 5 oz rod out of adip tank. Came with a 12 volt power supply and is nice and small. It willeasily mount to theside of a dip tank system. I think that this is the one that Waynerecommended and as usual isright on the money and at a decent price. phone # 1-800-848-8001. Theirtechnician said that themotor could easily handle raising and lowering 10 oz's. from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 5 14:09:54 1999 via NOTES Subject: Japanese Rods: Grampus With all of this discussion regarding Japanese Rods...does anyone knowanythingabout the Grampus brand? I was told they are of Japanese origin. Weretheymade by someone else or is Grampus the actual manufacturer? I found one real cheap in the ever popular fly-spin reversible handleformat,but it seems an odd configuration because the flyrod part is an 8' threepiecewith two tips. (And it doesn't cast a DT5 half bad) I figured it would be agood subject for my first full blown restoration. The cane looks decentafter Iremoved the old varnish. Another strange thing about it is that it hadbrownwraps that I would call "evenly palmered" between all of the guides thatlookedoriginal. I'd never seen that before. My plan is to convert it with new ferrules (the old ones look nickel platedbuta few of the male ones have splits) and a traditional reel seat and grip. Any info about this rod or brand would be appreciated...thanks, Kev from chris@artistree.com Tue Jan 5 14:12:41 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese rods mac-creator="4D4F5353" Of course I and I believe others, are referring to the rods mass produced inJapan from the 1930's? through the 1950's. I don't mean to stereotypethese rodsbut I have yet to find one that casts well and in many cases they are verypoorlybuilt. Now on the other hand, today I know a bunch of saltwater bait & plugguysout here who swear by the "new" high-tech saltwater graphite rods fromJapan.--Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Art Port wrote: All, I was just sitting here and wondering if Max is doing a slow burn (andChristian and his mentor). I think maybe we'd DEFINITELY better qualifyourstatements here before we inadvertantly insult one of our own whoseems tobe making a damn-fine product. I HATE "politically correct" in all itsforms but I think here we're nudging the edge of civility a little withoutintending to.Art At 07:41 AM 1/5/99, Darrell Lee wrote:I've seen a lot of junk Japanese rods, but I've seen one or two that mightbe decent quality... Does anyone know what kind of cane they use andwho are some of the respected rod makers from Japan? I'm sure wecannotstereotype their rods as all inferior. I have one unmarked Japanese rodthat appears to be decent quality, not a Heddon mind you but better thana low end H-I. I'm curious though because it has aluminum ferrulesthough... Darrell from bburn@imt.net Tue Jan 5 16:47:37 1999 cu.imt.net (8.8.5/8.6.12)with SMTP id PAA13513 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 Subject: silk thread I would like to get in touch with Alec Jackson to purchase some silkthread.I tried the phone number 206.488.9806 supplied by A.J. Thramer a fewweeksago and got "sorry your number can not be completed as dialed". Can anyoneout there help me with his phone number or e-mail address?(The phoneoperator had too many listings under A. Jackson to be of any help)Thanks,Bill Blackburn from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 5 20:04:10 1999 ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: replying Has there been a change in the list format? Between the hours of 14:10and19;23 on Dec. 15, something changed! Before that time, the reply fieldcontained "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu". Afterward it has contained theaddress of the originator of the message. To reply to the list, I have toenter rodmakers address. If I just hit reply, it goes back to the originalsender. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 5 20:18:23 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: ferrules (Again) Chris,When someone asks me about redoing one of those post war (WW twice)Japanese rods I tell 'em its worth about $25 and I charge a min. of $60/section. If it has sentimental value then they might do it. So far it hasn'thappened, thank God.Regards,Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 5 20:18:34 1999 darrell01@netzero.net,channer@hubwest.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re[2]: Japanese rods Thanks Art-you're words are well taken. I must admit that thephrase"Japanesecane rod" has meant a post war tourist, Yankee dollar attraction ratherthan aquality rod that someone like Max Satoh would make which is unfortunate.Hopefully this 1930's child can rethink his preconceptions.REgards,Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 5 20:18:36 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: pvc dip tube Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairly expensive. I got it through alocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4 pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip only the sticks, then putguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn the sticks while youapplythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come in handysomeday). :-)Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 5 20:25:34 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: ferrules (Again) Hey, John,I cut my teeth on Montagues in the late 40's@ $14.95 a shot- Thought I'ddied and gone to heaven but what does a 12 year old know? :- )Regards,Hank W. from stpete@netten.net Tue Jan 5 21:38:00 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA04967; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:37:41 -0600 Subject: Re: replying Onis, You are right. It took me a while to catch on. If your mail softwarehas a "reply all" button on it, you can use that to send mail to thelist and to the sender. Note, that if you do that, the sender will getthe message twice, once from you and once from the list. Rick C. Onis Cogburn wrote: Has there been a change in the list format? Between the hours of 14:10and19;23 on Dec. 15, something changed! Before that time, the reply fieldcontained "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu". Afterward it has containedtheaddress of the originator of the message. To reply to the list, I have toenter rodmakers address. If I just hit reply, it goes back to the originalsender. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 5 22:26:43 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA11098 for; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:28:15-0600 Subject: Re: pvc dip tube I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic" rodsverywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairly expensive. I got it through alocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4 pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip only the sticks, thenputguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn the sticks while youapplythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come in handysomeday). :-)Hank W. from jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Wed Jan 6 06:51:58 1999 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:39:06 EST Subject: Japanese Bamboo Rods This thread has peaked my interest enough to make a request. I'am surethere are currently some fine artisans of Bamboo rodmakers in Japan ,Max's name comes up almost synonomous in most instances. Where therearegood crafts people there has to have been in the past good craftspeople. This is my request. Is there any resource available identifying theseJapanese Rod makers ie such as the Dick Spurrier web site here in thestates. Maybe even a book ? Ignorance is usually tied to the lack ofknowledge and maybe we need to be educated in the history of JapaneseBamboo rod making. Respectfully,Jim Tefft from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Jan 6 06:52:11 1999 Subject: Re: Another Subject List: Thanks to all who responded to our note about early cancerdetection.Such good support has been a big lift, especially the similiar examples alotof you shared. Shirley is doing well in her recovery. Again, thanks somuch. Best Regards,Richard from darrell01@netzero.net Wed Jan 6 06:56:35 1999 (209.154.169.71) Subject: Just received my xmas present to myself... boundary="=PMail:=_0003@@8Zg3C0bEA0VMEvzyluTH" --=PMail:=_0003@@8Zg3C0bEA0VMEvzyluTH a Leonard 8 1/2' tournament rod... circa 30's I think. My question isanybody know what line weight to start with. It's 4 7/8oz according tothe label and my scale. The tips seem quite delicate, I'm thinking a4wt or at most a 5wt. Feedback anyone? --=PMail:=_0003@@8Zg3C0bEA0VMEvzyluTH-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from hhholland@erols.com Wed Jan 6 07:33:09 1999 Subject: Re: Applying Finish TonyBe careful using the toothpick--I've found that some woods (e.g. Popsiclesticks) impart a coloration to the finish. A thin palette knife works well!Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: pvc dip tube I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic" rodsverywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: .I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come in handysomeday). :-)Hank W. from FlyTyr@southshore.com Wed Jan 6 07:49:02 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA24010 for ;Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:50:32-0600 Subject: Re: Applying Finish Hank ,Thanks for the warning, I have only used it with Flex Coat and have had noilleffects, will not try it with varnish as you recommend.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Hank Holland wrote: TonyBe careful using the toothpick--I've found that some woods (e.g. Popsiclesticks) impart a coloration to the finish. A thin palette knife workswell!Hank H. -----Original Message-----From: Tony Spezio Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:31 AMSubject: Re: pvc dip tube I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic"rodsverywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: .I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come in handysomeday). :-)Hank W. from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Wed Jan 6 08:37:11 1999 Subject: Re: Applying Finish I've been using a plain bodkin to apply varnish to wraps and it worksgreat for me. Regards, Bob Fly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Tony Spezio wrote: Hank ,Thanks for the warning, I have only used it with Flex Coat and have hadno illeffects, will not try it with varnish as you recommend.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Hank Holland wrote: TonyBe careful using the toothpick--I've found that some woods (e.g.Popsiclesticks) impart a coloration to the finish. A thin palette knife workswell!Hank H. -----Original Message-----From: Tony Spezio Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:31 AMSubject: Re: pvc dip tube I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic"rodsverywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: .I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come inhandysomeday). :-)Hank W. from jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se Wed Jan 6 08:55:29 1999 with ESMTP id AAA1B45 for ;Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:48:19 +0100 Subject: Re: Just received my xmas present to myself... Darrel,congratualations I was going to bid on this rod myself but there was atechnical error when I tried to reach eBay that hour from Sweden. What soever you have got yourself a very nice rod from the adv. and pictures oneBay. Usually these rods do cast a DT line best but the weight you need tomatch the rod calls for a line that has to big a diameter for the guides of that time if you chose a modern synthetic line. Best is a silk line of DT4-5. If you chose a modern line I would go for a WF 5 as these lines dotaper down to a smaller diameter after the belly which make them shootbetter in the small diameter guides. The catalogs of the time do notspecify a certain line but I do have a rod of the same model and age asyours but 8' of length and it performs best with the lines above.Below you will find a list of Tournament rods as they appeared in mycatalogs from that time. Dry Fly Tournament Rods No 48DF 3pc 7' 3 - 3.5 oz wd/sb 1933No 49DF 3pc 7.5' 3.5 - 3.75 oz " 1933No 49DF 3pc 7.5' 3.75 - 4 oz " 1967No 50DF 3pc 8' 3.75 - 4 oz " 1926No 50DF 3pc 8' 3.5 - 4 oz " 1933No 50DF 3pc 8' 3.75 - 4.125 oz " 1954No 50DF 3pc 8' 3.88 - 4.5 oz " 1967No 4099 3pc 8' 4 - 4.5 oz " 1933No 4099 3pc 8' 4 - 4.75 oz " 1954No 4099 3pc 8' 4.5 - 5 oz " 1967No 50*DF 3pc 8.5' 4 - 4.25 oz " 1926No 50*DF 3pc 8.5' 4 - 4.5 oz " 1933No 50*DF 3pc 8.5' 4.25 - 4.5 oz " 1954No 50*DF 3pc 8.5' 4.25 - 5 oz " 1967No 4099* 3pc 8.5' 4.5 - 5 oz " 1941No 4099* 3pc 8.5' 4.75 - 5.25 oz " 1967No 51DF 3pc 9' 4.75 - 5 oz " 1926No 51DF 3pc 9' 4.75 - 5.5 oz " 1954 Best,Jan Nystrom Darrell Lee wrote: a Leonard 8 1/2' tournament rod... circa 30's I think. My question isanybody know what line weight to start with. It's 4 7/8oz according tothe label and my scale. The tips seem quite delicate, I'm thinking a4wt or at most a 5wt. Feedback anyone? from sniderja@email.uc.edu Wed Jan 6 09:05:34 1999 Subject: methods/techniques for finishing silk wraps This thread has piqued my interest. What are some of the techniques usedbyyou better rod builders (who do not dip with guides attached) for applyingspar varnish/polyurethane or whatever to silk wraps? Do you use brushes,needles, toothpicks, etc? How many coats of finish? Drying time? Do youfine sand (wet or dry?) between coats? Although asthetics don't make therod cast any better, lets face it, when someone looks at a bamboo rod, theasthetics are the first thing they see.In my own experience, I found that going from nylon thread to silk threadinvolved a much higher level of skill and practice. I have cast some very nice rods that were covered with dust motes,simplyTERRIBLE finishes on the wraps, etc. If some of these rods had beenstanding next to one that had a nicer finish, the tendency usually is topick up the more attractive rod first (it is only later that we seem tolearn that personality is just as important!). Obviously, casting is the important quality, but if the quality is lackingon the outside (cosmetics), one intuitively has a tendency to question thequality of the construction as well, at least until the rod is cast. I have read some of you discussing that a lot of your rodbuilding time isdoing the thread wraps and finishes.Any discussion here? Thanks in advance.Jerry Snider from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Wed Jan 6 12:13:36 1999 via NOTES Subject: ferrule epoxy Hi all, a quick new guy question....what is the preferred material and method usedtoattach ferrules? Is it the same for the tip-top and reel seat? thanks for your patience... Kev from paullyon@epix.net Wed Jan 6 16:26:15 1999 ESMTP id RAA27941; Subject: Re: pvc dip tube mac-creator="4D4F5353" One and all: In the discussion of dip tubes, I see some of you guys talking about dippingthewhole finished rod, guides and all, and that makes no sense to me. Am Imissingsomething? I always thought the way to do it was to dip the blank first,then putthe guides on and finish the wraps with a brush or whatever. I see Tonytalkingabout using a toothpick and Hank talking about a needle. Are you guystalking aboutusing those implements to apply a fairly thick finish like epoxy or are wetalkingabout using them for varnish. Please enlighten me because I find a brush aless-than-desirable tool for epoxy finish, even one with stiff bristles. Tight lines,Paul Tony Spezio wrote: I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic"rods verywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairly expensive. I got it throughalocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4 pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip only the sticks, thenputguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn the sticks while youapplythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come in handysomeday). :-)Hank W. from paullyon@epix.net Wed Jan 6 16:40:08 1999 ESMTP id RAA00213; Subject: Re: ferrule epoxy mac-creator="4D4F5353" Kevin, I always have used an old stick of black ferrule cement that you meltbeforeapplying to attach tip-tops and ferrules. I carry it in my vest with a Biclighter for emergency repairs. I use epoxy for reel seats, although someguyslike my dad prefer using ferrule cement for those, too. I guess it's amatter ofwhether you see the need to ever remove those parts. With ferrule cement,youjust heat the part and it comes off. With epoxy, it's never coming off soyou'dbetter like it. If it were me, I would use ferrule cement for a reel seat onabamboo and epoxy on a graphite. I have found ferrule cement, if appliedproperly, is strong and durable. Hope that helps. Paul Lyon Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com wrote: Hi all, a quick new guy question....what is the preferred material and methodused toattach ferrules? Is it the same for the tip-top and reel seat? thanks for your patience... Kev from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 6 16:57:51 1999 Subject: Re: pvc dip tube In a message dated 1/6/99 2:30:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: In the discussion of dip tubes, I see some of you guys talking aboutdippingthewhole finished rod, guides and all, and that makes no sense to me. Am I missing something? It can be done either way. Finished rod or just the blank. Witha finished rod you mask off the parts you don't want varnish onlike parts of the ferrule, but otherwise snake guides, stripper, thewhole thing - except the handle of course and the reel seat - getsa coat of varnish. With a good quality varnish you can hardly tellthere is a coat on the guides. If you want varnish on the wraps to build them up a little before the dip or not. That's the beauty of making them yourself. You can do anything you want depending on how you want it to look. Darryl from anglport@con2.com Wed Jan 6 17:23:06 1999 Subject: Silk Anyone with an opinion (whoa!)?? I've always wrapped with nylon and now you guys have shamed me intousingsilk. I wasn't bright or quick enough to get in on the silk orders thatwere placed recently so I'm asking now for some advice (or prejudices) onsilk: Gudebrod, Angler's Workshop (YLI?), Alex Jackson, somebody else? I'mnot looking for accuracy in anybody's specified color or anything likethat. I just want to know what the best for the money is if I can find thecolors I want in their selection. Anyone?Art from paullyon@epix.net Wed Jan 6 17:35:20 1999 ESMTP id SAA07397; Subject: Re: pvc dip tube mac-creator="4D4F5353" Bill: Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting using epoxy on bamboo rod wraps. Iwastalking about graphite. I see your point about bonding the wrap better totherod and it probably makes for a smoother, more fluid transition betweenthewraps and the rod. I'm assuming you then clean the varnish off the ferrulesandguides? I would think varnish in the guides would cause friction anddiminishcastability, no? That would be my only reason for not dipping the guides.I'mgoing to try the needle/toothpick method for applying wrap finish on anewgraphite I'm building. Regards,Paul "Lamberson, William R." wrote: Paul - Many of us dip the whole finished rod. We tape and plug the ferrulesbeforedipping to make sure that no varnish gets to where it doesn't belong.Others spray varnish on the finished rod with an airbrush, some varnishwitha brush. There are a variety of acceptable methods that work fordifferentpeople. Wrapping guides on the bare rod and then varnishing has anadvantage of causing the wraps to be well stuck to the rod. The needle or toothpick would be used to apply a spar or polyurethanevarnish to the wraps. It works pretty well. You can really control whereit goes. Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 11:30 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: pvc dip tube One and all: In the discussion of dip tubes, I see some of you guystalking about dipping thewhole finished rod, guides and all, and that makes no senseto me. Am I missingsomething? I always thought the way to do it was to dip theblank first, then putthe guides on and finish the wraps with a brush or whatever.I see Tony talkingabout using a toothpick and Hank talking about a needle. Areyou guys talking aboutusing those implements to apply a fairly thick finish likeepoxy or are we talkingabout using them for varnish. Please enlighten me because Ifind a brush aless-than-desirable tool for epoxy finish, even one withstiff bristles. Tight lines,Paul Tony Spezio wrote: I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finishon "plastic" rods verywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairlyexpensive. I got it through alocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip onlythe sticks, then putguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn thesticks while you applythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissectingneedle from my collegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff wouldcome in handy someday). :-)Hank W. from paullyon@epix.net Wed Jan 6 17:45:06 1999 ESMTP id SAA08701; Subject: Re: ferrule epoxy mac-creator="4D4F5353" Art: Wish I did. I still got about an inch and a half left on my old stick and thestuff seems to go a long way. All I've seen on the market is that clearGudebrodstuff you're talking about. I never even tried it because it just neverlookedlike it would work. Your experience confirms my hunch, I guess. It's likethe oldcontact cement I used to use to glue carpeting on the soles of my waders.Can'tget that stuff anymore, either. Probably just as well. Can't spare any morebraincells from breathing the fumes anyway. Somebody out there has got to know where ton get good old- fashionedferrulecement. HELP! Paul Art Port wrote: Paul,Do you have a source of that "old stick of black ferrule cement"? I'malmost out and can only find the Gudebrod clear stick (a 1/2" left and I'musing the new stuff as a handle to hold it with--that's the only thing I'vefound the new stuff good for!). Either I'm using it wrong or the new stuffis garbage!Thanks,Art At 05:43 PM 1/6/99 +0000, you wrote:Kevin, I always have used an old stick of black ferrule cement that you meltbeforeapplying to attach tip-tops and ferrules. I carry it in my vest with a Biclighter for emergency repairs. I use epoxy for reel seats, although someguyslike my dad prefer using ferrule cement for those, too. I guess it's amatter ofwhether you see the need to ever remove those parts. With ferrulecement, youjust heat the part and it comes off. With epoxy, it's never coming off soyou'dbetter like it. If it were me, I would use ferrule cement for a reel seaton abamboo and epoxy on a graphite. I have found ferrule cement, if appliedproperly, is strong and durable. Hope that helps. Paul Lyon Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com wrote: Hi all, a quick new guy question....what is the preferred material and methodused toattach ferrules? Is it the same for the tip-top and reel seat? thanks for your patience... Kev from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 6 17:46:47 1999 Subject: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I never reallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Jan 6 17:51:42 1999 via smap (4.1) 15:55:22 PST Subject: RE: Silk I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have not tried all of those you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0 is a nice workable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than the size A. This thread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) in the wraps. You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That is a little more money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believe theGudebrod is sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silk Co. that Jon Lintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 which is slower to work with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat and looks very refined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with the fine size I'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather up anothergroup order (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red or black, or another run of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from FlyTyr@southshore.com Wed Jan 6 17:58:01 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08509 for ;Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:59:39-0600 Subject: Re: pvc dip tube PaulI can only speak for myself . I was referring to epoxy finish with atoothpick, I havealso used a dubbing needle. I use the toothpick to do the ends of the wrapsto get asmooth narrow line just beyond the last wrap of thread, then use a throwaway brush forthe rest of the wrap. This method may not apply to varnishing the wraps.Years agowhen I did refinish some bamboo rods, I did the wraps and then used somelint lesscloth such as a piece of worn out bedsheet to apply the varnish . I have notseen thismethod mentioned on the list. I had no idea what a dip tank was. The best Icanremember was that I put about eight to ten coats on this way. They werevery thin onthe bamboo and heavier on the wraps. At the time I had no complaints fromthe people Idid them for. That was back in the 40s before all the fancy finishes wehave to choose from today.I kind of have the same question, shall I dip or drain before or after theguides arewrapped. This is a decision I will have to make soon. I don't like varnish ontheguides but on the other hand it seems to be quicker. I have seen a lot ofbeautifulfinished rods done that way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Paul Lyon wrote: One and all: In the discussion of dip tubes, I see some of you guys talking aboutdipping thewhole finished rod, guides and all, and that makes no sense to me. Am Imissingsomething? I always thought the way to do it was to dip the blank first,then putthe guides on and finish the wraps with a brush or whatever. I see Tonytalkingabout using a toothpick and Hank talking about a needle. Are you guystalking aboutusing those implements to apply a fairly thick finish like epoxy or arewe talkingabout using them for varnish. Please enlighten me because I find a brushaless-than-desirable tool for epoxy finish, even one with stiff bristles. Tight lines,Paul Tony Spezio wrote: I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic"rods verywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairly expensive. I got itthrough alocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4 pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip only the sticks,then putguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn the sticks while youapplythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle from mycollegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come inhandy someday). :-)Hank W. from oakmere@carol.net Wed Jan 6 18:01:36 1999 Subject: RE: New Subscriber Question Hi Folks: Just a quick question. Does this list have a "digest mode" for receivingmail? Thank you, FrankFrank Paul, Seneca, SCPiscator from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Wed Jan 6 18:04:23 1999 Subject: Re: ferrule epoxy Just wanted to point out that the Flex Coat Rod Builder's Epoxy Glue islisted as a ferrule cement. Regards, Bob On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Paul Lyon wrote: Art: Wish I did. I still got about an inch and a half left on my old stick and thestuff seems to go a long way. All I've seen on the market is that clearGudebrodstuff you're talking about. I never even tried it because it just neverlookedlike it would work. Your experience confirms my hunch, I guess. It's likethe oldcontact cement I used to use to glue carpeting on the soles of mywaders. Can'tget that stuff anymore, either. Probably just as well. Can't spare anymore braincells from breathing the fumes anyway. Somebody out there has got to know where ton get good old- fashionedferrulecement. HELP! Paul Art Port wrote: Paul,Do you have a source of that "old stick of black ferrule cement"? I'malmost out and can only find the Gudebrod clear stick (a 1/2" left andI'musing the new stuff as a handle to hold it with--that's the only thingI'vefound the new stuff good for!). Either I'm using it wrong or the newstuffis garbage!Thanks,Art At 05:43 PM 1/6/99 +0000, you wrote:Kevin, I always have used an old stick of black ferrule cement that you meltbeforeapplying to attach tip-tops and ferrules. I carry it in my vest with aBiclighter for emergency repairs. I use epoxy for reel seats, althoughsome guyslike my dad prefer using ferrule cement for those, too. I guess it's amatter ofwhether you see the need to ever remove those parts. With ferrulecement, youjust heat the part and it comes off. With epoxy, it's never coming offsoyou'dbetter like it. If it were me, I would use ferrule cement for a reel seaton abamboo and epoxy on a graphite. I have found ferrule cement, if appliedproperly, is strong and durable. Hope that helps. Paul Lyon Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com wrote: Hi all, a quick new guy question....what is the preferred material andmethodused toattach ferrules? Is it the same for the tip-top and reel seat? thanks for your patience... Kev from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jan 6 18:26:25 1999 0600 Subject: Re: Silk BD0C6137D1FBB74FF0ED6488" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- BD0C6137D1FBB74FF0ED6488 Chris, et alI've used the Anglers 3/0, and like the way it looks. But I really wonderhow strong the stuff is. I know I break it fairly often when I'm wrapping,even with a high dollar tensioning device, and one well known maker toldme hedidn't use it for just that reason.Seems like the wraps with good old Gudebrod silk are much moresubstantial. They don't look quite as nice to me, but their gold thread,whenvarnished without color preservative goes almost perfectly clear andlooks niceon a medium flamed rod, especially with a small tipping.Russ Gooding is now carrying some Pearsall's Gossamer silk I want totry,especially for tipping. I haven't seen it, but his description sounds good.His webpage can be reached at http://www.goldenwitch.com/ I'm going toordersome soon. If I don't like it for rodwrapping, I'm sure it will tie nice softhackle flies.I doubt you'll find much consensus on this, but that's what makes it fun!Harry Boyd mcdowellc@lanecc.edu wrote: I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have not tried all ofthose you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0 is a niceworkable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than the size A. Thisthread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) in thewraps.You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That is a littlemore money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believe theGudebrodis sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silk Co. that JonLintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 which is slower towork with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat and looks veryrefined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with the fine sizeI'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather up anothergrouporder (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red or black, or anotherrun of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu --------------BD0C6137D1FBB74FF0ED6488 begin: vcardfn: Harry Boydn: Boyd;Harryorg: First Baptist Churchadr;dom: 507 Highland Street;;;Winnsboro;LA;71295;email;internet: fbcwin@fsbnet.comtitle: Pastortel;work: 318 435-4359tel;fax: 318 435-5488tel;home: 318 435-2278 version: 2.1end: vcard --------------BD0C6137D1FBB74FF0ED6488-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jan 6 18:28:44 1999 Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:26:07 -0600 Subject: Re: New Subscriber Question Yep,You should have received instructions when you logged on. Look themover andfollow the directions there.Harry Boyd Just a quick question. Does this list have a "digest mode" for receivingmail? from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Wed Jan 6 18:56:32 1999 Subject: RE: Silk Dick Spurr has a batch of original factory W&M Granger rod wrapping silkin 980yd spools. Prices range from about $30-$50 dollars depending oncolor...he even has black and white jasper. Check it out at the bottomof this page: http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/update.htm -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd [SMTP:fbcwin@fsbnet.com]Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Silk Chris, et alI've used the Anglers 3/0, and like the way it looks. But Ireally wonderhow strong the stuff is. I know I break it fairly often whenI'm wrapping,even with a high dollar tensioning device, and one well knownmaker told me hedidn't use it for just that reason.Seems like the wraps with good old Gudebrod silk are muchmoresubstantial. They don't look quite as nice to me, but theirgold thread, whenvarnished without color preservative goes almost perfectly clearand looks niceon a medium flamed rod, especially with a small tipping.Russ Gooding is now carrying some Pearsall's Gossamer silk Iwant to try,especially for tipping. I haven't seen it, but his descriptionsounds good.His webpage can be reached at http://www.goldenwitch.com/ I'mgoing to ordersome soon. If I don't like it for rodwrapping, I'm sure it willtie nice softhackle flies.I doubt you'll find much consensus on this, but that's whatmakes it fun!Harry Boyd mcdowellc@lanecc.edu wrote: I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have nottried all ofthose you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0is a niceworkable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than thesize A. Thisthread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) inthe wraps.You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That isa littlemore money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believethe Gudebrodis sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silkCo. that JonLintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 whichis slower towork with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat andlooks veryrefined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with thefine sizeI'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather upanother grouporder (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red orblack, or anotherrun of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Wed Jan 6 19:24:07 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Wed, 06 Jan1999 20:24:15 -0500 Subject: IRC Service Available Hey folks: Since I have a full-time ISDN connection to the internet, and the IRCsoftware already installed...we could visit online once per week on apre-determined day and time to discuss rodmaking in real-time mode onIRC. You wouldn't have to install IRC software because the package I useallowsme to accept users off the web. Would anyone be interested in this? If so, what would be a good night todoit? Let me know Joe from darrell01@netzero.net Wed Jan 6 19:41:30 1999 (199.174.185.193) Subject: Re[2]: Silk boundary="=PMail:=_0001@@T20Mh00Gv59BYWhOcrHz" --=PMail:=_0001@@T20Mh00Gv59BYWhOcrHz deal me in some silk if someone puts together an order... Darrell=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: RE: Silk Dick Spurr has a batch of original factory W&M Granger rod wrapping silkin 980yd spools. Prices range from about $30-$50 dollars depending oncolor...he even has black and white jasper. Check it out at the bottomof this page: http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/update.htm -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd [SMTP:fbcwin@fsbnet.com]Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Silk Chris, et alI've used the Anglers 3/0, and like the way it looks. But Ireally wonderhow strong the stuff is. I know I break it fairly often whenI'm wrapping,even with a high dollar tensioning device, and one well knownmaker told me hedidn't use it for just that reason.Seems like the wraps with good old Gudebrod silk are muchmoresubstantial. They don't look quite as nice to me, but theirgold thread, whenvarnished without color preservative goes almost perfectly clearand looks niceon a medium flamed rod, especially with a small tipping.Russ Gooding is now carrying some Pearsall's Gossamer silk Iwant to try,especially for tipping. I haven't seen it, but his descriptionsounds good.His webpage can be reached at http://www.goldenwitch.com/ I'mgoing to ordersome soon. If I don't like it for rodwrapping, I'm sure it willtie nice softhackle flies.I doubt you'll find much consensus on this, but that's whatmakes it fun!Harry Boyd mcdowellc@lanecc.edu wrote: I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have nottried all ofthose you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0is a niceworkable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than thesize A. Thisthread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) inthe wraps.You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That isa littlemore money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believethe Gudebrodis sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silkCo. that JonLintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 whichis slower towork with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat andlooks veryrefined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with thefine sizeI'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather upanother grouporder (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red orblack, or anotherrun of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu --=PMail:=_0001@@T20Mh00Gv59BYWhOcrHz-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Wed Jan 6 19:53:49 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Wed, 06 Jan1999 20:53:50 -0500 Subject: Verathane 900 Does anyone have a source of the Verathane 900 varnish that Howell talksabout in "The Lovely Reed"???? from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Jan 6 21:32:30 1999 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Myself, I wouldn't use anything but Spar Varnish or PolyVarnish on a split cane rod. But, that's Me. Maybe I'm oldfashioned. Dave leClair from KDLoup@aol.com Wed Jan 6 21:54:52 1999 Subject: Re: Silk List,I have used the Pearsall's Gossamer fly tying silk with good results.It works especially well for tipping as it is finer than 3/0 silk. Myfavorite combination is green used as a primary wrap with purple astipping.I purchased the thread from English Angling Trappings about a year ago. Kurt Loup from spazz@choice.net Wed Jan 6 21:58:08 1999 WAA24093; Subject: Re: Verathane 900 boundary="------------9068F3878148F651D5CEA5D7" --------------9068F3878148F651D5CEA5D7 Varathane has a website with a retail locator try www.flecto.com FYI Kevin "Joe C. Byrd" wrote: Does anyone have a source of the Verathane 900 varnish that Howelltalksabout in "The Lovely Reed"???? --------------9068F3878148F651D5CEA5D7 FYIKevin"Joe C. Byrd" wrote:Does anyone have a source of the Verathane 900varnishthat Howell talksabout in "The Lovely Reed"???? --------------9068F3878148F651D5CEA5D7-- from KDLoup@aol.com Wed Jan 6 22:00:59 1999 Subject: Re: Verathane 900 Joe,I've purchased Varathane 90 Clear Gloss (same thing?) from Home Depot. Ithink Lowes also carries it. Kurt Loup from channer@hubwest.com Thu Jan 7 01:18:29 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A02C101029A; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:20:12 MST Subject: Re: pvc dip tube At 06:38 PM 1/6/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:Bill: Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting using epoxy on bamboo rod wraps. Iwastalking about graphite. I see your point about bonding the wrap better totherod and it probably makes for a smoother, more fluid transition betweenthewraps and the rod. I'm assuming you then clean the varnish off theferrules andguides? I would think varnish in the guides would cause friction anddiminishcastability, no? That would be my only reason for not dipping the guides.I'mgoing to try the needle/toothpick method for applying wrap finish on anewgraphite I'm building. Regards,Paul Paul;You don't really have to clean the varnish off the guides, the line willtake it off where it touches the guides and the rest of it will protect theblack finish on blackened guides. John from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 7 08:11:46 1999 Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:11:40 -0500 "Bamboo Flyrod List" Subject: Re: Verathane 900 =_NextPart_000_01BE3A1D.B9663B60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1D.B9663B60 I don't know about Verathane 900, but I would be willing to bet than ANYofthe modern exterior, high-gloss polyurethane finishes will produce equalresults. I have been finishing rods for over twenty years, using nearlyevery poly available, and I have yet to distinguish any really appreciable differences inresults. To my mind, the issue is not so much in the choice of materials (there isno "magic" out there, fellas), but in the technique of application. Proper consistency is important. You can prepare this yourself.Proper temperature is important.Proper brushing or dipping procedures matter enormously.Proper drying between coats matters.Proper build-up matters.Proper sanding, steel-wooling and polishing count, most of all, in an excellent final finish. There's no need to get yourself all "wrapped around the axle" searching fora wonder varnish. You're looking in the wrong direction. Learn, instead,how to manage your materials and refine your techniques. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Joe C. Byrd Subject: Verathane 900Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:53 PM Does anyone have a source of the Verathane 900 varnish that Howelltalksabout in "The Lovely Reed"???? ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1D.B9663B60 I don't know aboutVerathane =900, but I would be willing to bet than ANY of the modern exterior, = have been finishing rods for over twenty years, using nearly every poly =available, and I have yet to distinguish any really appreciable = much in the choice of materials (there is no "magic" out = this yourself. Proper temperature is important. Proper=brushing or dipping procedures matter enormously. Proper drying=between coats matters. Proper build-upmatters. Proper =sanding, steel-wooling and polishing count, most of all, in an = excellent final finish. There's no need to get yourself all "wrapped around = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1D.B9663B60-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 7 08:16:33 1999 Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:16:28 -0500 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) =_NextPart_000_01BE3A1E.692AE000" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1E.692AE000 Me, I use nothin' but poly. Some of my rods were finished over twentyyears ago, used constantly, and show no signs of deterioration. Quit fussin'about the product--it's the technique that counts. Pay a LOT of attentionto that. Bill ----------From: LECLAIR123@aol.com Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube)Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:27 PM Myself, I wouldn't use anything but Spar Varnish or PolyVarnish on a split cane rod. But, that's Me. Maybe I'm oldfashioned. Dave leClair------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1E.692AE000 Me, I use nothin' but poly. = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A1E.692AE000-- from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jan 7 08:26:27 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'mcdowellc@lanecc.edu'" Subject: RE: Silk http://www.goldenwitch.com/gossamer.htm take a look at this silk, I bought some of this and it's beautiful stuff. ----------From: mcdowellc@lanecc.edu[SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:42 PM Subject: RE: Silk I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have not tried all of those you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0 is a nice workable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than the size A. This thread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) in thewraps. You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That is a little more money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believe theGudebrod is sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silk Co. that Jon Lintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 which is slower to work with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat and looks very refined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with the fine size I'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather up anothergroup order (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red or black, or another run of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Jan 7 08:28:21 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id XAA29076; Thu, 7 Jan1999 23:28:13 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I never reallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Jan 7 08:47:38 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id XAA12095; Thu, 7 Jan1999 23:47:20 +0900 (JST) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Japanese rods Art, Appreciate your thoughtfulness. Max Art Port wrote: All, I was just sitting here and wondering if Max is doing a slow burn (andChristian and his mentor). I think maybe we'd DEFINITELY better qualifyourstatements here before we inadvertantly insult one of our own whoseems tobe making a damn-fine product. I HATE "politically correct" in all itsforms but I think here we're nudging the edge of civility a little withoutintending to.Art At 07:41 AM 1/5/99, Darrell Lee wrote:I've seen a lot of junk Japanese rods, but I've seen one or two that mightbe decent quality... Does anyone know what kind of cane they use andwho are some of the respected rod makers from Japan? I'm sure wecannotstereotype their rods as all inferior. I have one unmarked Japanese rodthat appears to be decent quality, not a Heddon mind you but better thana low end H-I. I'm curious though because it has aluminum ferrulesthough... Darrell ======================================== From: john channer Subject: Re: ferrules (Again)Date: 1/5/99 6:52 AM At 10:52 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen anolderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 at auctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished(wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazement thewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford chris;You should see the crap they want $150 or more for in the antiquestoresaround here. Decorators are running the price of these things way up,mostof what I see are worth about $5 for parts, if that much.Re: Japaneserods-Bear in mind what they were made for, thousands of G.I.'s returninghometogo fishing. I bet if we asked our friends in other countries, we wouldfindthat all cultures have had their Montagues and H.I.'s John from FlyTyr@southshore.com Thu Jan 7 09:04:41 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA30799 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:06:17-0600 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it as recommended Iendedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying several thincoatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in a yearstime ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealed theentireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like any comments ifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I never reallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from anglport@con2.com Thu Jan 7 09:46:21 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Tony, The only preserver I ever had even semi-consistent success with wasthelatex stuff that Dale Clemens sells. I think it's called CrystalCoat. Ihave a feeling it's just a water based poly as it smells like poly andlooks like milk. I once used one of the lacquer-smelling ones and had therod come out of the dip fine 'til I added another dip and EVERY WRAPbubbled up on me. I had to strip the rod of the varnish and when I tried itagain it happened again. I've always wondered what caused that but neverused that stuff again!Art At 09:08 AM 1/7/99 -0600, Tony Spezio wrote:As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it as recommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying several thincoatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like any commentsifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from FlyTyr@southshore.com Thu Jan 7 10:30:55 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00537 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:32:33-0600 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) The first rod I used the varnish type C/P and then was advised to go to thewaterbase C/ P.As mentioned, I had the same problem. I just recently repaired andrefinished abamboo rod for a wall hanger . I first coated the wraps with a water basePoly thenused a piece of old pillow case cloth to apply the finish on the completerod. Ittook 8 coats but looked good. This is the way I used to do it years agoexcept forputting the varnish on the wraps first. I did not know how the water basewouldtake to the wraps. I think you are right, the water base C/P is nothingmore thanW/Base poly. I have a 10 1/2 ' salmon rod that I an doing now and hewanted C/P onit, when I showed him how it would look without the C/P he liked itbetter. Thattook a load off of me. You can see how the wraps will look without the C/Pbywetting the wraps with denatured alcohol. At least it works for me.Tony Art Port wrote: Tony,The only preserver I ever had even semi-consistent success withwas thelatex stuff that Dale Clemens sells. I think it's called CrystalCoat. Ihave a feeling it's just a water based poly as it smells like poly andlooks like milk. I once used one of the lacquer-smelling ones and had therod come out of the dip fine 'til I added another dip and EVERY WRAPbubbled up on me. I had to strip the rod of the varnish and when I tried itagain it happened again. I've always wondered what caused that but neverused that stuff again!Art At 09:08 AM 1/7/99 -0600, Tony Spezio wrote:As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it asrecommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying several thincoatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like any commentsifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from wbinn@michiana.org Thu Jan 7 11:42:02 1999 freenet.michiana.org (8.8.2/8.7.3(CICNet)) with ESMTP id MAA25035 for Subject: New Cane Rod Book Looking through the latest Wilderness Adventures book catalog I receivedthe other day I noticed a new book due out soon titled "Constructing CaneRods" by Ray Gould. Being the rabid collector I am I reserved a copy. I'mcurious though if anyone knows about Mr. Gould? I've never heard his namebefore but wonder if he might be a "lister"?Anyone know Ray?Winston Binney from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 7 11:43:03 1999 Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:42:39 -0500 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) =_NextPart_000_01BE3A3B.34B7E120" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A3B.34B7E120 I've had the same bad luck with color preserver on the wraps of bamboorods. I just don't like the stuff. I get either blotchy color or anartificial look. I stick with several coats of poly, carefully built-up oneach wrap--and then ten days or so before finishing the whole rod. Thecolor of the thread changes, admittedly, but usually for the better. Youjust need to learn what each color is going to "do" upon applying the polyso that you can END UP with the color you want. Like most of our efforts,trial and error is often the best teacher. Cheers, Bill----------From: Tony Spezio Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube)Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:08 AM As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it as recommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying severalthin coatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like any commentsifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A3B.34B7E120 I've had the same bad luck = each wrap--and then ten days or so before finishing the whole rod. = = final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in a years time = = = sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A3B.34B7E120-- from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Thu Jan 7 13:51:14 1999 via NOTES Subject: wrap coating question When using a poly wrap coating what is the prefered method ofapplication?I've heard a lot of you say lint free material (like a sheet or pillow case)and some say brushes. If you use a good sable brush, can you clean it whenyour done, and if so what with? Kevin from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jan 7 13:55:40 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Subject: Bark grips To all I have consulted my books on knife making (do that as well) and have comeup with the following: In Scandinavia Birch bark is used for grips on knives. 1. Dry the bark2. Remove the outer white/black layer3. Glue the pieces together under the heaviest pressure, You can make4. Use water resistant glue5. File or use lathe to make grip Please note: this is a hard grip, almost like laminated wood. Have seenknives made this way,the looked beautiful. regards, Carsten from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jan 7 16:14:22 1999 Subject: Re: Cane Selection I'm surprised no one stepped up to take on these questions.Okay, I'll take a first stab at them. Eschewing the effect of nodes, does it make any difference at all where a strip comes from on a culm? I realize that you can come acrossstrips that are noodles and therefore worthless, but if the cane inquestion is resilient and has sufficient power fibers, does it make any differencewhere it was on the culm? Does cane have any inherent characteristicsbecause of its location at the base, middle or top of a culm? The base of the culm has thicker power fibers, and the power fiberlayer tends to be thicker there also. If I was going to make a premierrod, with cost being no object, I would use strips for both the tips andbutt from the base of the culm. Is node placement completely cosmetic? I recall reading in the Archives that an individual built a rod with the nodes all in one location. Surely if nodes constituted a weak spot then this rod would fail at first use. I don't think nodes are weak spots. They are stiff spots. I wouldn'tput them all together to avoid having a stiff spot somewhat like having another ferrule. Node placement at or near tip. What are the experiences of modern rods? Have any current builders placed a node within an inch or two of the tip of a rod that has received a modicum of use? If so, whatwere the effects? Again, nodes are stiff spots, and I avoid putting nodes close to the tipto get maximum flexibility from the area that needs to be the mostflexible. Darryl from stpete@netten.net Thu Jan 7 16:27:04 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA06604 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:26:55 Subject: [Fwd: "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod"] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5613650E42BE List, I got this post from Stuart Kirkfield yesterday. I asked permission topost it to the list. I thought many of you might be interested. Rick Crenshaw --------------5613650E42BE cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA05605 for ; Wed, 6Jan 1999 18:47:32 -0600 Subject: "The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod" Dear Rick, I just read your post on the Rodmaker's List re: books you would like toown,including my book, The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod. I note your commentsregardingthe current price of $250 plus from the Sporting Book Dealers and thedifficulty of finding a copy even at that price. Although it does wondersforan author's ego to see his work commanding such lofty prices,unfortunately itdoes create problems for many people who would like a copy but are not inaposition to spend such large sums on a book. I hope it makes you feel special to be the first to know (and from theauthorhimself, no less) that I have decided to remedy this situation bypublishing aSecond Edition of my book immediately. The public announcement has notyetbeen made. You are, literally, the first to know. I hope this makes yousmile. Best wishes,Stuart Kirkfield --------------5613650E42BE-- from bills@nwlink.com Thu Jan 7 17:13:33 1999 Subject: Re: Silk Harry,I just received some of the Pearsall silk from Golden Witch. You will bepleased with the quality. Nice color, no fuzz. Give it a try.Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Silk Chris, et alI've used the Anglers 3/0, and like the way it looks. But I reallywonderhow strong the stuff is. I know I break it fairly often when I'm wrapping,even with a high dollar tensioning device, and one well known maker toldmehedidn't use it for just that reason.Seems like the wraps with good old Gudebrod silk are much moresubstantial. They don't look quite as nice to me, but their gold thread,whenvarnished without color preservative goes almost perfectly clear andlooksniceon a medium flamed rod, especially with a small tipping.Russ Gooding is now carrying some Pearsall's Gossamer silk I want totry,especially for tipping. I haven't seen it, but his description sounds good.His webpage can be reached at http://www.goldenwitch.com/ I'm goingtoordersome soon. If I don't like it for rodwrapping, I'm sure it will tie nicesofthackle flies.I doubt you'll find much consensus on this, but that's what makes itfun!Harry Boyd mcdowellc@lanecc.edu wrote: I cannot speak from a comparative angle because I have not tried all ofthose you mentioned. I can say that the Anglers (YLI) in 3/0 is a niceworkable size. I would recommend the 3/0 rather than the size A. Thisthread does not have problems with excess fuzz (filaments) in thewraps.You get 200 yrds. on one of these rolls for about $6. That is a littlemore money than the Gudebrod spools I've priced, but I believe theGudebrodis sold in 100 yrd. rolls so you have to consider that. The best I've seen is the group order silk from the Rice silk Co. thatJonLintvet and Chris Lucker put together. It is size 6/0 which is slowertowork with due to the size, but the finished wrap is flat and looks veryrefined. Fuzz is virtually non existent as well, but with the fine sizeI'm not sure it matters anyway. Hopefully in the future someone would be willing to gather up anothergrouporder (hint..hint). Maybe something in a shade of red or black, oranotherrun of the antique gold. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Jan 7 17:43:56 1999 " - (052)rodmakers(a)mail.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: wrap coating question I am using two varnishes for my bamboo rod work, Behr Super Spar fordipping, and Flecto Varathane 900 for the thread wraps. Two coats of thespar are dipped before attaching the guides, each coat wet sanded with1500grit paper. The guide wraps are given 4 to 6 coats of the Varathane, orwhatever it takes to fill and level the thread. And, yes, I use a sablebrush. The brush stands in paint thinner when not in use, ie, never drysout. Then a third and final coat of spar is dipped. I've found that theVarathane gives clean colors very close to the unvarnished color, almostacts like a color preserver. Before I settled on this I tried variouskinds of varnish. The color differences with different types is startling,so you should experiment to find out what you like. ----------From: Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Subject: wrap coating questionDate: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:43 PM When using a poly wrap coating what is the prefered method ofapplication?I've heard a lot of you say lint free material (like a sheet or pillowcase)and some say brushes. If you use a good sable brush, can you clean itwhenyour done, and if so what with? Kevin from mevans@acxiom.com Thu Jan 7 17:49:57 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: Source for Vixen Files A local tools supply house here carries several vixen files from Simon andNichols. One of theSimon files looks excellent to me, but must be ordered by the box - forabout $18 to $20 a piece(part #81-13450). The Nichols is a coarser cut for $20 (8 inch). It is partnumber FR50- 20239.These can be ordered by the piece. I liked the Simon a little better. If anyone is interested in cooping on abox order, I'd needabout 10. Please let me know off list. If you'd prefer to call them on your own, they are Dimension Tool Company,501 327-5649, inConway Arkansas. They specialize in metal working and cutting tools. Mark Evans from paullyon@epix.net Thu Jan 7 18:22:09 1999 ESMTP id TAA15451; Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) mac-creator="4D4F5353" I'm a journalist and you're misquoting me, Darryl. Go back and read thethread. Paul SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I never reallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl from paullyon@epix.net Thu Jan 7 18:28:06 1999 ESMTP id TAA16097; Subject: Re: pvc dip tube mac-creator="4D4F5353" Tony,Thanks. That helps. I can see using a needle or toothpick for epoxy becauseit's thicker.I'm thinking a spar or poly would be too thin to apply in such a way,although I thinksomebody said they use that method for varnish, too. I'm going to try itwith Flex Coat ona rod I'm building now. Paul Tony Spezio wrote: PaulI can only speak for myself . I was referring to epoxy finish with atoothpick, I havealso used a dubbing needle. I use the toothpick to do the ends of thewraps to get asmooth narrow line just beyond the last wrap of thread, then use a throwaway brush forthe rest of the wrap. This method may not apply to varnishing the wraps.Years agowhen I did refinish some bamboo rods, I did the wraps and then usedsome lint lesscloth such as a piece of worn out bedsheet to apply the varnish . I havenot seen thismethod mentioned on the list. I had no idea what a dip tank was. The bestI canremember was that I put about eight to ten coats on this way. They werevery thin onthe bamboo and heavier on the wraps. At the time I had no complaints from the people Idid them for. That was back in the 40s before all the fancy finishes wehave to choose from today.I kind of have the same question, shall I dip or drain before or after theguides arewrapped. This is a decision I will have to make soon. I don't like varnishon theguides but on the other hand it seems to be quicker. I have seen a lot ofbeautifulfinished rods done that way.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Paul Lyon wrote: One and all: In the discussion of dip tubes, I see some of you guys talking aboutdipping thewhole finished rod, guides and all, and that makes no sense to me. Am Imissingsomething? I always thought the way to do it was to dip the blankfirst, then putthe guides on and finish the wraps with a brush or whatever. I see Tonytalkingabout using a toothpick and Hank talking about a needle. Are you guystalking aboutusing those implements to apply a fairly thick finish like epoxy or arewe talkingabout using them for varnish. Please enlighten me because I find abrush aless-than-desirable tool for epoxy finish, even one with stiff bristles. Tight lines,Paul Tony Spezio wrote: I found a round pointed toothpick applies the wrap finish on "plastic"rods verywell. Will try it on a Bamboo rod when I get one made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Andy,That's why I use a clear tube that is fairly expensive. I got itthrough alocal plumber-its 6" in diameter and I can dip all 4 pcs. of a 3/2 rod.Another way to use the pvc that you have is to dip only the sticks,then putguides on and use a rotisserie type motor to turn the sticks whileyou applythe varnish to the wraps.I use a needle to apply the varnish-a large dissecting needle frommy collegebiology classes back in the 50's (Iknew that stuff would come inhandy someday). :-)Hank W. from paullyon@epix.net Thu Jan 7 18:32:28 1999 ESMTP id TAA16674; Subject: Re: pvc dip tube mac-creator="4D4F5353" Good point, John. Thanks you. Paul john channer wrote: At 06:38 PM 1/6/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:Bill: Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting using epoxy on bamboo rod wraps. Iwastalking about graphite. I see your point about bonding the wrap better totherod and it probably makes for a smoother, more fluid transition betweenthewraps and the rod. I'm assuming you then clean the varnish off theferrules andguides? I would think varnish in the guides would cause friction anddiminishcastability, no? That would be my only reason for not dipping theguides. I'mgoing to try the needle/toothpick method for applying wrap finish on anewgraphite I'm building. Regards,Paul Paul;You don't really have to clean the varnish off the guides, the line willtake it off where it touches the guides and the rest of it will protect theblack finish on blackened guides. John from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Thu Jan 7 18:41:53 1999 Subject: What would be todays equivelent of Skues WBR? Hi Folks, I hope this question is appropriate. My piscatorial holy grailis to find my own Worlds Best Rod. My angling hero GEM Skues, asolicitor was given by a grateful client a Leonard. In its day it was arevelation, being relatively light compared with as Skues put it himselfthose "Weavers Beams". He was to fish with this rod for over 50 years,despite owning several other Leonards. He christened the Rod WBR orsimply the Worlds Best Rod. In your opinion, and I realise this issubjective! What Rod design would be the equivelent rod today? To narrow the field somewhat, my ideal rod should be an excellent tool such a rod, I should not be too conscious of what the rod is doing, buthave my entire attention on the water. Well there we are, my first question to Lisproc. Regards PeterDorset, England. from paullyon@epix.net Thu Jan 7 18:42:11 1999 ESMTP id TAA17885; Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) mac-creator="4D4F5353" Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once and itdarkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point. Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps to therod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck with usingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Tony Spezio wrote: As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it as recommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying several thincoatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like any commentsif it isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I never reallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with the polyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 7 18:49:35 1999 Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:49:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Cane Selection =_NextPart_000_01BE3A76.C386DCE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A76.C386DCE0 Ah, yes, nodes! The bane of the rod-maker. Strange, that we've never beenable to decide if a node is weak or strong, as compared to the adjacent cane. They're a kinky mess any way you look at it. But whether inherently weak orstiff, the essential point is that a node imparts, in one way or another,DIFFERENT flex characteristics from neighboring fibers. And for thisreason, alone, we stagger them in some manner to spread out WHATEVER effect they may be having. That said, I always spiral my nodes, equidistantly, throughout the entirelength of a given section so that every node is surrounded by five stripswith straight fibers. Garrison, of course, distributed his nodes according to the firing order ofa straight six-cylinder engine (153624), but the point of opposing eachnode with five straight fibers strips remains the same. I just don't likethe haphazard "look" of this distribution system--so I spiral, 'cause itlooks great. There are many other systems of distribution, but any method that doublesor trebles node placement just strikes me as an inherently BAD idea. Now,it's true that one uses more cane with the spiral method, but thisargumentnever made sense to me, 'cause I could never figure out what to do anywaywith the couple extra feet of cane "saved" at the end of a culm. And then there's that business as to whether one needs to honor final stripplacement in accordance with its original position in the circumference ofthe culm. That one strikes me as an academic argument entirely worthy ofmedieval scholars pondering the number of angels dancing on the head of apin. Theories, of course, abound, but I defy anyone to demonstrate anappreciable difference between two equally well-made rods--even if builtaccording to opposing theories. Well, so much for MY contentiousness. Anybody out there want a piece o'me? Cheers, Bill----------From: SalarFly@aol.com Subject: Re: Cane SelectionDate: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:12 PM I'm surprised no one stepped up to take on these questions.Okay, I'll take a first stab at them. Eschewing the effect of nodes, does it make any difference at all where a strip comes from on a culm? I realize that you can come acrossstrips that are noodles and therefore worthless, but if the cane inquestion is resilient and has sufficient power fibers, does it make anydifferencewhere it was on the culm? Does cane have any inherent characteristicsbecause of its location at the base, middle or top of a culm? The base of the culm has thicker power fibers, and the power fiberlayer tends to be thicker there also. If I was going to make a premierrod, with cost being no object, I would use strips for both the tips andbutt from the base of the culm. Is node placement completely cosmetic? I recall reading in the Archives that an individual built a rod with the nodes all in one location. Surely if nodes constituted a weak spot then this rod would fail at first use. I don't think nodes are weak spots. They are stiff spots. I wouldn'tput them all together to avoid having a stiff spot somewhat like having another ferrule. Node placement at or near tip. What are the experiences of modern rods? Have any current builders placed a node within an inch or two of the tip of a rod that has received a modicum of use? If so, whatwere the effects? Again, nodes are stiff spots, and I avoid putting nodes close to the tipto get maximum flexibility from the area that needs to be the mostflexible. Darryl------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A76.C386DCE0 decide if a node is weak or strong, as compared to the adjacent cane. = whether inherently weak or stiff, the essential point is that a node = equidistantly, throughout the entire length of a given section so that =every node is surrounded by five strips with straight fibers. =Garrison, of course, distributed his nodes according to the firing =order of a straight six-cylinder engine (153624), but the point of =opposing each node with five straight fibers strips remains the same. = great.There are many other systems of distribution, but any =method that doubles or trebles node placement just strikes me as an = the spiral method, but this argument never made sense to me, = culm.And then there's that business as to whether one needs to =honor final strip placement in accordance with its original position in = =argument entirely worthy of medieval scholars pondering the number of = but I defy anyone to demonstrate an appreciable difference between two =equally well-made rods--even if built according to opposing = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3A76.C386DCE0-- from fiveside@net-gate.com Thu Jan 7 19:15:32 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA14379 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:15:37 Subject: Uslan To the ListIn the hope of promoting even better penta tapers and because I somehowseem to have been designated as his supporter I would appreciatereceivingUslan tapers particularly on those rods which are better performers. Wehaveone from Rich Margiotta and would like to add to it. I would like to analysethe data and will make it all public for sure for use by thosemany(?)dedicated fiver fans. Bill from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Jan 7 19:21:07 1999 TAA04175 Subject: BFRM Received my copy today! Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from FlyTyr@southshore.com Thu Jan 7 19:42:37 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04260 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:44:16-0600 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Paul,It did darken when it was wet but when it dried the color was the same aswhen it wenton. Now that was on thread that did not have "built in color preserver".Some threads aretreated to keep their color, I have not used any of these. In the rods I have,that Iused color preserver on still have the original color for the most part butit becameblotchy after about a year.Hope this helps answer your question.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Paul Lyon wrote: Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once andit darkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point. Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps to therod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck with usingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Tony Spezio wrote: As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it asrecommended I endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying severalthin coatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like anycomments if it isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with thepolyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy when Iwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from pyork@ipa.net Thu Jan 7 19:47:01 1999 Subject: restoring impregnated rods? Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap job doneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnish fromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the a wonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think I couldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from FlyTyr@southshore.com Thu Jan 7 19:52:53 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04683 for ;Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:30-0600 Subject: Re: What would be todays equivelent of Skues WBR? Peter,I am just about to finish reading the book" The Essential G.M.Skues. I wassurprised at how much information there is on the Leonard and otherbamboorods. If you have not read it, it covers the whole story on how the WBR gotit's name. There is also information on how that rod is made.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Peter McLeod wrote: Hi Folks, I hope this question is appropriate. My piscatorial holy grailis to find my own Worlds Best Rod. My angling hero GEM Skues, asolicitor was given by a grateful client a Leonard. In its day it was arevelation, being relatively light compared with as Skues put it himselfthose "Weavers Beams". He was to fish with this rod for over 50 years,despite owning several other Leonards. He christened the Rod WBR orsimply the Worlds Best Rod. In your opinion, and I realise this issubjective! What Rod design would be the equivelent rod today? To narrow the field somewhat, my ideal rod should be an excellent tool such a rod, I should not be too conscious of what the rod is doing, buthave my entire attention on the water. Well there we are, my first question to Lisproc. Regards PeterDorset, England. from BambooRods@aol.com Thu Jan 7 20:14:44 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo In a message dated 1/2/99 12:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: Terry,We should be thankful that some do think of "theorizing" as it is thebase that those of us that simply "make" rods exist. from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Thu Jan 7 20:53:59 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? I fowarded all the Stripping Varnish replies from 12/21/98 to Paul. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap jobdoneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnishfromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the awonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think I couldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from pyork@ipa.net Thu Jan 7 21:43:00 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? At 2:49 AM -0000 1/8/99, Bob Perry wrote:I fowarded all the Stripping Varnish replies from 12/21/98 to Paul. Bob,I'm aware of a lot of the strippers that are on the market today and havefound one that works for me on a lot of the rods that I restore. But thisbeing an impregnated rod with a prefect W&M/granger finish, except forthenon-factory wraps. I'm not sure if the stripper the I use now would hurtthis rod? Don't fix it if it ain't broken, just correct the guide spacing.Wondering if stripper is the right thing to use to remove the varnisharound the old guides when I take them off? Is an impregnated rod thesameas a traditional varnished rod. Don't think it is, simply by the process inwhich impregnation is done. Not sure how W&M did their impregnationprocess, but have read several articles on the Orvis impregnation and it'snot just a good ole dip in the varnish tank.Regards, Paul Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap jobdoneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnishfromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the awonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think I couldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from mdscott@ibm.net Thu Jan 7 22:48:55 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA66546 for ;Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:48:48GMT Subject: Pseudo science I believe my original post, below, did not get through. I'm taking theliberty of sending it again. I for one appreciate Mr. Sato's efforts to provide us with resourcespertaining to bamboo and rod building. I don't believe such effortsshould becharacterized as "pseudo science."I have visited Mr. Sato's web site recently and found it detailed,thoroughand very original. Regards,Michael Terence Ackland wrote: Max,I am sorry. I just try to build half decent fishing poles without allthepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifying personal preferences.I, on the other hand enjoy the challenge of trying to build qualitycanerods that the average angler can afford.Terry Ackland Max Satoh wrote: Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) in material engineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes therelationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength ofits location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strengthisshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side of the bamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness.Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understanditsmilar to Tonkin on itscharacteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of the strip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (orouter)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those stripsshiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement somelevel ofimbalance. Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 7 23:00:25 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:59:53 +0000 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? Bob, I have redone Orvis rods before...assuming a similar impregnation material(Bakelite, I believe)...just mechanically remove the old wrap varnish. Mostgood houseware departments have a TEFC (Teflon) potscraper -- they aresquarish, about the size of a silver dollar, the edge is beveled on oneside - - they are intended to remove baked on food from Teflon andSilverstone cookware (i.e., non-scratching). Usually, they work great andget off all the old wrap varnish. Second choice would be to buff it off with a buffer and jeweler's rouge(that is how Orvis gets the finish in the first place). Third choice is to VERY CAUTIOUSLY use 4/0 steel wool -- if you aren'tcareful, you'll need to buff the rod (above). I wouldn't use varnish strippers at all...I don't believe they'll harm theimpregnation (you can remove the tip top and test), but they aren'tnecessary at all. Good luck,George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? I fowarded all the Stripping Varnish replies from 12/21/98 to Paul. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap jobdoneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnishfromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the awonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think Icouldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from channer@hubwest.com Thu Jan 7 23:24:31 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A6F63320088; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:26:14 MST Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) At 07:45 PM 1/7/99 +0000, you wrote:Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once and itdarkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point. Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps to therod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck with usingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Paul;I use polyurethane with some success on light color, such as antique goldand yellow, but it seems that no matter how careful I am to fully saturateall the threads, I still wind up having to re-do some wraps that getblotches in them when I varnish the rod. I like to dip the rod after theguides are wrapped, but I think I will either have to varnish first, orquit using light colors. I am getting tired of wrapping guides 2 or 3times. Traditionally, lacquer was used as color preserver, that is why yousee so many old rods with cracked wraps, lacquer is brittle and it doesn'tbond the thread to the rod. John from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Jan 8 06:42:18 1999 GAA28048 Subject: Re: Cane Selection The base of the culm has thicker power fibers, and the power fiberlayer tends to be thicker there also. If I was going to make a premierrod, with cost being no object, I would use strips for both the tips andbutt from the base of the culm. Darryl, If I am reading you correctly, the power fibers are more densly packedat the base of a culm, and this then makes a better strip because ofinherent strength? I don't think nodes are weak spots. They are stiff spots. I wouldn'tput them all together to avoid having a stiff spot somewhat likehaving another ferrule. Nodes being stiff spots makes more sense, I was thinking of them as weakareas. This also goes to not placing them at, or near the tip.This would suggest that Mr. Harms method, via Garrison, of nodeplacement would be optimal for a superior rod. Once again realizing thatthere are no cut and dried statements that stand up in rod making. I appreciate your response Darryl. I too was a little suprised that morepeople didn't jump in. I was looking for a consensus opinion on caneselection and node placement. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Fri Jan 8 07:50:06 1999 Subject: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Hello List,Has anyone tried to turn their own aluminum reel seat?. Do you know whatare the procedures and equipments involved?. Thanks.Andy from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 8 08:25:26 1999 ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Hello Andy. I haven't yet but am about to try. I plan on doing exactlythe same thing as I have been doing on the brass and phosphor bronze reelseats. I've turned a few small things in aluminum and didn't notice anynoticable differences to the brass. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10 minilathe with a Sherline cross slide that I added for small stuff. Prettystraight forward. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Hello List,Has anyone tried to turn their own aluminum reel seat?. Do you knowwhatare the procedures and equipments involved?. Thanks.Andy from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Jan 8 08:31:41 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: At 2:49 AM -0000 1/8/99, Bob Perry wrote:I fowarded all the Stripping Varnish replies from 12/21/98 to Paul. Bob,I'm aware of a lot of the strippers that are on the market today and havefound one that works for me on a lot of the rods that I restore. But thisbeing an impregnated rod with a prefect W&M/granger finish, except forthenon-factory wraps. I'm not sure if the stripper the I use now would hurtthis rod? Don't fix it if it ain't broken, just correct the guide spacing. Damn, I missed the impregnated part. Which stripper do you use? Regards, Bob from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 8 08:35:31 1999 ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: straightning I did some comparrisons between polyurethane glue and Titebond II glue.After breaking a bunch of test splices, I decided I would stick with theTitebond II for making splices. I am still concerned about the problem oftitebond breaking down with heat. I think I have a solution however. The hardware and plumbing stores sell a "plumbers tape", you know, thethin, non adhesive, teflon tape used to wrap pipe thread. I plan onwrapping the section of the rod to be straightened with a couple of layersof the tape before straightning. Being teflon, the stuff is resistant toheat and it is so thin, it doesn't noticably change the outline of the rod.The white also slows the heating of the bamboo so should reduceoverheating. I tried melting the tape with my heat gun and couldn't but itwill curl if placed over a direct flame. Has anyone tried this? Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Jan 8 09:00:32 1999 mail.wzrd.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? At 09:49 PM 1/7/99 -0500, Bob Perry wrote:I fowarded all the Stripping Varnish replies from 12/21/98 to Paul. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap jobdoneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnishfromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the awonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think I couldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York Paul, Are you certain that there is ANY varnish on your rod? Impregnated rods donot require any varnish for protection. Usually they are buffed to a softgloss. I think that only the wraps are varnished. Perhaps you could check Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from Turbotrk@aol.com Fri Jan 8 09:38:34 1999 Subject: Forms OK I give in. I have a question that I need an absolut answer on before Iproceed any further with my filing of my forms. If you set your forms upperthe Premrose method of filing (ie. wide at the tip and a .001/in.progressionto the butt getting narrower at each station), what should my depth gaugebereading as I go from tip to butt as I approach final. Should it stay thesameor should it show the taper getting deeper as I move toward the butt. Iknowthe groove should be deeper at the butt. I just cannot figure out thegeometrics of an equalateral triangle taking in affect of the narrowing oftheforms and the groove getting deeper. I have valid arguments for both butcannot resolve it in my mind. I am sure the list will know. Thanks in advanceStuart S. Miller from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Jan 8 10:21:35 1999 via smap (4.1) 8:25:50 PST Subject: Guide Spacing (was restoring impregnated rods) Paul, You mentioned that the guide spacing looked funny on your impregnatedrod. If you plan to return the rod to it's original state, and the guides are immediately on either side of the mid tip ferrule area, then that is original on many Granger made and Phillipson rods and I assume Wrightand McGill. They apparently felt it was important to have the guides close to the ferrule at this location and did it that way. The two guides in this portion of the rod are about 2"-3" apart is all. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jan 8 11:16:48 1999 Subject: Re: Guide Spacing (was restoring impregnated rods) In a message dated 1/8/99 8:22:52 AM Pacific Standard Time,mcdowellc@lanecc.edu writes: If you plan to return the rod to it's original state, and the guides are immediately on either side of the mid tip ferrule area, then that is original on many Granger made and Phillipson rods and I assume Wrightand McGill. I have noticed this also. Interesting way to space the guides.In thinking about it, it makes sense though. A guide immediatelybefore and after the ferrule would take the stress off the bambooin those spots, where it is inherently high because of the ferrule,when fighting a fish anyway. I looked at the stress curve of a couple of Grangers and there is a peak just on the top end of each ferrule. I wonder why they didn't do it for the lower ferrule also, unless it'sbecause they felt the bamboo was thick enough to take the stressthere. Darryl from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 8 11:30:12 1999 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Hello Andy. I haven't yet but am about to try. I plan on doing exactlythe same thing as I have been doing on the brass and phosphor bronze reelseats. I've turned a few small things in aluminum and didn't notice anynoticable differences to the brass. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10 minilathe with a Sherline cross slide that I added for small stuff. Prettystraight forward. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,Have you worked out a way of making the pocket in the cap for down- lockingslide band type seats?Steve from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Fri Jan 8 12:03:17 1999 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re: Forms Your depth gauge reading should be the same all the way down theforms since you will be reading the depth filed away by the file. The groove will be tapered when the bars are adjusted to be parallel.Jon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Forms Author: at Internet-Mail OK I give in. I have a question that I need an absolut answer on before I proceed any further with my filing of my forms. If you set your forms upper the Premrose method of filing (ie. wide at the tip and a .001/in.progression to the butt getting narrower at each station), what should my depth gaugebe reading as I go from tip to butt as I approach final. Should it stay thesame or should it show the taper getting deeper as I move toward the butt. Iknow the groove should be deeper at the butt. I just cannot figure out the geometrics of an equalateral triangle taking in affect of the narrowing ofthe forms and the groove getting deeper. I have valid arguments for both but cannot resolve it in my mind. I am sure the list will know. Thanks in advanceStuart S. Miller from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Jan 8 12:33:49 1999 Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:33:45 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, Turbotrk@aol.comSubject: RE: Forms Not so, I'm afraid. The bars are not parallel, so the depth filed awayshould increase at each station proportionally to the increasingnarrowness of the bars. -----Original Message-----From: mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu[SMTP:mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu]Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Forms Your depth gauge reading should be the same all the way down theforms since you will be reading the depth filed away by the file. Thegroove will be tapered when the bars are adjusted to be parallel.Jon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Forms Author: at Internet-MailDate: 1/8/99 10:35 AM OK I give in. I have a question that I need an absolut answer onbefore I proceed any further with my filing of my forms. If you set your formsup per the Premrose method of filing (ie. wide at the tip and a .001/in.progression to the butt getting narrower at each station), what should my depthgauge be reading as I go from tip to butt as I approach final. Should it staythe same or should it show the taper getting deeper as I move toward the butt.I know the groove should be deeper at the butt. I just cannot figure out the geometrics of an equalateral triangle taking in affect of thenarrowing of the forms and the groove getting deeper. I have valid arguments for bothbut cannot resolve it in my mind. I am sure the list will know. Thanks in advanceStuart S. Miller from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Jan 8 12:37:43 1999 Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:37:39 -0500 Subject: RE: Forms Oops. Please disregard last message. Of course you are right, Jon.(Can you tell I'm a lawyer and not a geometrician?) -----Original Message-----From: Turbotrk@aol.com [SMTP:Turbotrk@aol.com]Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Forms OK I give in. I have a question that I need an absolut answer onbefore Iproceed any further with my filing of my forms. If you set your formsup perthe Premrose method of filing (ie. wide at the tip and a .001/in.progressionto the butt getting narrower at each station), what should my depthgauge bereading as I go from tip to butt as I approach final. Should it staythe sameor should it show the taper getting deeper as I move toward the butt.I knowthe groove should be deeper at the butt. I just cannot figure out thegeometrics of an equalateral triangle taking in affect of thenarrowing of theforms and the groove getting deeper. I have valid arguments for bothbutcannot resolve it in my mind. I am sure the list will know. Thanks in advanceStuart S. Miller from chris@artistree.com Fri Jan 8 14:20:10 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? mac-creator="4D4F5353" Guess I'll confuse matters even more. Actually, I believe you can have animpregnated rod with a varnish coat. I have and H&I that appears to havebeenbuilt this way. But my question is are you sure W&M is impregnated? I wasunawarethat they used this process but that doesn't mean they didn't. I am curious. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com P.S. - Rick's Rods listed on Rodmakers site are pretty knowledgeable aboutGranger, W&M and Phillipson as they carry blanks and original parts fortheserods. They might be of help to you. Are you certain that there is ANY varnish on your rod? Impregnated rodsdonot require any varnish for protection. Usually they are buffed to a softgloss. I think that only the wraps are varnished. Perhaps you could check Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 8 15:28:42 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? Chris,In 1952 W&M started making two models of their "Water Seal" rods, theF.A. & the F.B., and continued until 1960. The only difference between thetwo rods were the fittings & wrap colors. Regards Gary H. At 12:22 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:Guess I'll confuse matters even more. Actually, I believe you can have animpregnated rod with a varnish coat. I have and H&I that appears to havebeenbuilt this way. But my question is are you sure W&M is impregnated? Iwasunawarethat they used this process but that doesn't mean they didn't. I amcurious. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 8 15:33:53 1999 Subject: just a P.S. P.S. These were the only Wright & McGill rods that were not carry theGranger name also. G.H. from paullyon@epix.net Fri Jan 8 15:48:46 1999 ESMTP id QAA08857; Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? mac-creator="4D4F5353" Paul, Try this site for guide spacing charts. Obviously they wouldn't be themaker'soriginal guide spacing. Here it is: http://fishdoc.com/rod101/rod101.htm Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Paul York wrote: Just aquired a Wright & McGill - FA model impregnated rod 9' 3/2. Thefinish on the rod is in excellent shape, except for a poor re-wrap jobdoneon it at some point. This will be the first restore job I've done on animpregnated rod. So, the question is how do I remove the old varnishfromthe blank once the guides are taken off without damaging the awonderfulfinish. I'm needing help with the correct guide spacing for this rod aswell. The spacing on it now is very random, looks wrong. But who know,there could have been a plan behind it. To remove the old varnish scares,do I sand and polish or sand and re-dip, If I re-dip I don't think I couldget the same finish. Looking for some guidance. Regards, Paul York ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from teekay35@interlynx.net Fri Jan 8 15:58:07 1999 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Flecto Varathane 900 acts like a color preserver. For example, whitethread drys out to a pale white rather than transluscent. Most colors aremore vivid and true to their unvarnished color when using Varathane. Varnish a sample wrap and let it dry to see what you get. Anotheradvantage to Varathane is that it is designed to apply 3 coats in a day tofloors. With a little planning you can apply 3 or 4 coats to the wrapsin a day. Saves a lot of waiting you have to do with spar varnish. ----------From: john channer Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube)Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 5:59 PM At 07:45 PM 1/7/99 +0000, you wrote:Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once anditdarkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point.Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps totherod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck withusingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Paul;I use polyurethane with some success on light color, such as antique goldand yellow, but it seems that no matter how careful I am to fullysaturateall the threads, I still wind up having to re-do some wraps that getblotches in them when I varnish the rod. I like to dip the rod after theguides are wrapped, but I think I will either have to varnish first, orquit using light colors. I am getting tired of wrapping guides 2 or 3times. Traditionally, lacquer was used as color preserver, that is whyyousee so many old rods with cracked wraps, lacquer is brittle and itdoesn'tbond the thread to the rod. John from paullyon@epix.net Fri Jan 8 16:01:31 1999 ESMTP id RAA10466; Subject: Re: Pseudo science mac-creator="4D4F5353" One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit and manyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach a pointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis.Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA mdscott@ibm.net wrote: I believe my original post, below, did not get through. I'm taking theliberty of sending it again. I for one appreciate Mr. Sato's efforts to provide us with resourcespertaining to bamboo and rod building. I don't believe such effortsshould becharacterized as "pseudo science."I have visited Mr. Sato's web site recently and found it detailed,thoroughand very original. Regards,Michael Terence Ackland wrote: Max,I am sorry. I just try to build half decent fishing poles without allthepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifying personal preferences.I, on the other hand enjoy the challenge of trying to build qualitycanerods that the average angler can afford.Terry Ackland Max Satoh wrote: Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) in material engineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes therelationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength ofits location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strengthisshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side ofthe bamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness.Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understanditsmilar to Tonkin on itscharacteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of the strip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (orouter)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those stripsshiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement somelevel ofimbalance. Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from mevans@acxiom.com Fri Jan 8 16:01:58 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: Vixen File Purchase We have people wanting to purchase 8 vixen files on a shared order (pleasesee the note below.) These are fairly hard to find and can cost $35 or more from many sources. These will cost $22or $25 each depending on whether we order an 8 inch or 10 inch file. Weneed to order a minimumof 12 files. If there are 4 more folks out there who would like to join theorder, please letme know off list. (This should be the last list posting on this.) Thank you, Mark Evans---------- Subject: Source for Vixen Files A local tools supply house here carries several vixen files from Simon andNichols. One of theSimon files looks excellent to me, but must be ordered by the box - forabout $18 to $20 a piece(part #81-13450). The Nichols is a coarser cut for $20 (8 inch). It is partnumber FR50- 20239.These can be ordered by the piece. I liked the Simon a little better. If anyone is interested in cooping on abox order, I'd needabout 10. Please let me know off list. If you'd prefer to call them on your own, they are Dimension Tool Company,501 327-5649, inConway Arkansas. They specialize in metal working and cutting tools. Mark Evans from paullyon@epix.net Fri Jan 8 16:17:14 1999 ESMTP id RAA12407 Subject: Thinning Flex Coat mac-creator="4D4F5353" One and all: The other day, I saw Max mention thinning Flex Cote epoxy finish beforeapplying it to wraps. That sounds like a wonderful idea because I havefound the stuff is hard to work with, even the so-called "Lite" formula.I'm sure if Max says he does it, then it works. Anyone have an opinion?Max, can you help? I think it would help me immensely if I could thinFlex Cote before applying it (yes, it's for a graphite rod for those ofyou gasping at the thought of using it on cane). I find the stuff isthick, builds too high too quickly and I have a tough time getting it todry hard even in ideal conditions -- exactly equal measurements, mixedthoroughly, warm and dry environment, etc. I also find it starts tothicken on me before I can finish all the wraps on a rod. Please, your thoughts. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA from jczimny@dol.net Fri Jan 8 16:47:55 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Pursuent to this. Painters and sculpters have a little saying that speaks tothe sin of over-analysis. It is, "it takes two persons to make a great workofart. One to make it and the other to tell him when to stop.". It ought to bepossible for a sane man to hold paradox in his mind. At least, for a time.Both paths are necessary. But, overemphasis of one over the other leadsaway from great craft.John Z Paul Lyon wrote: One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit and manyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis.Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA mdscott@ibm.net wrote: I believe my original post, below, did not get through. I'm taking theliberty of sending it again. I for one appreciate Mr. Sato's efforts to provide us with resourcespertaining to bamboo and rod building. I don't believe such effortsshould becharacterized as "pseudo science."I have visited Mr. Sato's web site recently and found it detailed,thoroughand very original. Regards,Michael Terence Ackland wrote: Max,I am sorry. I just try to build half decent fishing poles without allthepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifyingpersonal preferences.I, on the other hand enjoy the challenge of trying to build qualitycanerods that the average angler can afford.Terry Ackland Max Satoh wrote: Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) inmaterial engineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes therelationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength ofits location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strengthisshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side ofthe bamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness.Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understanditsmilar to Tonkin on itscharacteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of the strip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (orouter)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those stripsshiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement somelevel ofimbalance. Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 8 17:43:02 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Ed and Jim Payne made perhaps 20,000 rods between them using no morethan acraftsmans intuition.A generation ago Jim Payne could hardly support himself, yet here we haverodmakers with perhaps 10 rods under their belts having all the answers.It is a crying bloody shame!BambooRods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/2/99 12:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: pseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifying personalpreferences. >> Terry,We should be thankful that some do think of "theorizing" as it is thebase that those of us that simply "make" rods exist. from jfreeman@cyberport.com Fri Jan 8 17:54:11 1999 Subject: Enamel removal before heat treat. Thanks for the many answers on a dip motor. I'll report on what I end upusing. Next question: who has any info on heat treating strips that have theenamel already removed? Thanks, Jim from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 8 18:20:14 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science PaulThe ability to lay out just enough line so that the leader rolls over,straightens and the fly lands delicately just where the caster chooses isanart. For some of us this is an impossible task. For some it happensoccasionally and for the experts it is easy.An expert caster does not require an exquisite jewel like cane creationandcould probably cast with a Kmart special just as well. This is perhaps whyAmericans dumped their cane rods for those white solid glass rods. It isjustmarketing, and it works great with all sports.The 'science' on this list is just a bit of fun, adding some mistique to thecraft and bumps up the perceived value .Terry Paul Lyon wrote: One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit and manyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis.Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA mdscott@ibm.net wrote: I believe my original post, below, did not get through. I'm taking theliberty of sending it again. I for one appreciate Mr. Sato's efforts to provide us with resourcespertaining to bamboo and rod building. I don't believe such effortsshould becharacterized as "pseudo science."I have visited Mr. Sato's web site recently and found it detailed,thoroughand very original. Regards,Michael Terence Ackland wrote: Max,I am sorry. I just try to build half decent fishing poles without allthepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifyingpersonal preferences.I, on the other hand enjoy the challenge of trying to build qualitycanerods that the average angler can afford.Terry Ackland Max Satoh wrote: Hi, As I found an analysis of Moso Bamboo (Japanese species) inmaterial engineering book(in Japanese), I uploaded it on my web for yourcuriosity. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/3040/mosotensile.html This analysis was made by Dr. Juhachi Oda who is now Professor ofKanazawa Univ., Industrial Engineering, that analyzes therelationshipof distribution of power fibers and the tensile strength ofits location. (of-course they are co related) Analysis is made by taking several samples of inter-node areas atdifferentl height of the same culm and at several places within thestrip's width (ex. pith side and enamel side). The unit of strengthisshown in Pascal (Newton/sq.m). So please convert to your unit.% of wall thickness means, assume 100% is the most outer side ofthe bamboo surface, 0.25 is at the portion of 25 % of the thickness.Theportion of 0% and 100% do not have any value. Though this test is not on Tonkin Bamboo, I think we can understanditsmilar to Tonkin on itscharacteristics. Moso bamboo has thick dia. 3~4 inches like this;(Introducced as Mousou Chiku) http://home2.highway.or.jp/y-asai/natural.htm#tennen There is a difference of the strength according to the height of the strip on the orignal culm when we see the glaph of around 75% (orouter)where we mainly use as rod strips. But I'm not sure yet if it doesaffect so much or not. Anyway, when we stagger those stripsshiftingseveral inches, the strength of each flat surely implement somelevel ofimbalance. Max --Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHomePage(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Jan 8 19:25:42 1999 mail.wzrd.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) Subject: Re: Pseudo science At 05:04 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit and manyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis. We do not apear to have reached that point yet: 1. Rods apper to be gettingbetter all the time. 2. We do not yet know the limits of what can be donewith bamboo. Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / | \__/ \ / Douglas Easton | \ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com | |* from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jan 8 20:54:26 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP 02:58:40 GMT Subject: Saturday Coffee boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE3AED.2A2CECC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE3AED.2A2CECC0 Some of the list members will be attending the College Park, MD =Flyfishing Show the weekend after this one. The invitation is this - I =will have use of a classroom at the Armory where the show is being held =- Anyone wanting to stop by on saturday afternoon - The Coffee pot will =be on - or if the group has a better idea??? This might give those =listmember a chance to come out of the closet and meet some of the = ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE3AED.2A2CECC0 Some of the list members will be= College Park, MD Flyfishing Show the weekend after this one. The = this - I will have use of a classroom at the Armory where the show is = - Anyone wanting to stop by on saturday afternoon - The Coffee pot will = or if the group has a better idea??? This might give those listmember a = ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE3AED.2A2CECC0-- from pyork@ipa.net Fri Jan 8 21:12:06 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? At 9:29 PM -0000 1/8/99, Heidt wrote: Gary,You do bring up a point in the two different models of W&Mimpregnated rod. The FA and the FB. The FA, which I have, was the highergrade rod which used different and "so called" better hardware for theferrules and the reel seat. The seat is the patented Granger uplocking,screw type. They were all made out of a new alloy called "Monel". Hadneverheard of this metal until I was reading through Sinclair's book the othernight. Were there any other makers that tried using Monel for theirhardware? Does anyone know the details on why Monel isn't used anymore?O'well, sorry to ramble. Didn't get a firm answer to the first question,How do I get the old varnish off from where the old wraps are? A couple ofpeople said to scrape, steel wool and polish. Is this the appropriatemethod? And to Chris's point, the guides are butted up to the tip maleferrule and the mid female ferrule. This 3" spacing at that station justlooked wrong to me. But now that you bring up the stress at this point. Itdoes make since.Regards, Paul Chris,In 1952 W&M started making two models of their "Water Seal" rods, theF.A. & the F.B., and continued until 1960. The only difference between thetwo rods were the fittings & wrap colors.Regards Gary H. At 12:22 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:Guess I'll confuse matters even more. Actually, I believe you can have animpregnated rod with a varnish coat. I have and H&I that appears to havebeenbuilt this way. But my question is are you sure W&M is impregnated? Iwasunawarethat they used this process but that doesn't mean they didn't. I amcurious. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from rcurry@top.monad.net Fri Jan 8 21:30:56 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Doug,Yes, rods are getting better, but doesn't rodbuilding conform to theaxiom"Invention is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."So many of the tapers that we still use were developed by trial anderror here, 1thou less there" quickly.Perhaps the thought that cane, a natural material, varying in mechanicalproperties from piece to piece, can be analysed like a formed metal ingot,isgoing too far. But isn't that what we read so often? "This species of bamboohas these mechanical properties..."If we were simply looking at the average tensile strength of a wood forstructural purposes, a beam, a joist, etc., that's one thing; however, theminute differences between pieces of cane make raging variances betweentheperformance of rods. IMHO we can't think or theorize past this.Best regards,Reed "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: At 05:04 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit andmanyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis. We do not apear to have reached that point yet: 1. Rods apper to begettingbetter all the time. 2. We do not yet know the limits of what can be donewith bamboo. Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / |\__/ \ / Douglas Easton |\ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com ||* from pyork@ipa.net Fri Jan 8 21:31:00 1999 Subject: Re: Thinning Flex Coat Have had the exact same problems with flex coat. I refinished a $20 fleamarket rod 2 weeks ago. Tried to thin the Flex cote with acetone.Instructions on the can read that it is used for thinning epoxies. 14 dayslater and it's still not dry. Live and learn. Max, what are you using tothin your flex cote?Paul One and all: The other day, I saw Max mention thinning Flex Cote epoxy finish beforeapplying it to wraps. That sounds like a wonderful idea because I havefound the stuff is hard to work with, even the so-called "Lite" formula.I'm sure if Max says he does it, then it works. Anyone have an opinion?Max, can you help? I think it would help me immensely if I could thinFlex Cote before applying it (yes, it's for a graphite rod for those ofyou gasping at the thought of using it on cane). I find the stuff isthick, builds too high too quickly and I have a tough time getting it todry hard even in ideal conditions -- exactly equal measurements, mixedthoroughly, warm and dry environment, etc. I also find it starts tothicken on me before I can finish all the wraps on a rod. Please, your thoughts. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 8 22:02:32 1999 ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Pseudo science Pardon me, but I've just got to throw this in. How long has the bow beenaround? It took modern science to make the compound bow and with it'slaser sights and other fancy gizmos, it's about as far from that thing theIndians used as the moon lander is from Kitty Hawk. IMHO. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jan 8 23:24:09 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) withSMTP id FAA06822; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:28:23 GMT Subject: Re: Cane Selection The Subject could be one of many areas of rod making. We will disagree oratleast we do things differently. Perhaps the best explanation is that eachofus judge the issues differently. For the new comers to the list or to rodmaking as a whole this disagreement may seem confusing. For an example-let's use glue. For many years the standard of the industry was URAC. Butwhen I started I didn't like the rapid setting of the glue. When I weightedthe issues on my balance scale a new found Nyatex epoxy won out. Is itbetter than URAC ???I made the decision that it was at least equal.Meanwhile John Zimney looked at the situation and decided to alter theelement of URAC vs jump ship as I did - then there are others that chosetouse it as it comes sharpening their techniques. Well ???? Which is themostcorrect ???The advantage of a list or a get together is that quality information isshared - but can it be information over load? Perhaps there should berequired homework assignments - I think that a fair statement would bethatmany have done just that. But in the rocket science labs of our basementsthere will be different results. I can assure all the newcomers that yourfirst results will be farbetter than mine - you have the advantage of an excellent support system-The AA of rodmaking. But I will also tell you that you will hit against aproblem along the way that will baffle you. And for everyone it will besomething different.Now for an opinion about bamboo - It appears as if the tapering off ofthe power fibers in a 12' culm of bamboo runs somewhat in line with theusual taper of a finished fly rod. If you measure the depth of solidlypacked power fibers at the butt end of a culm of bamboo and if thatdimension is larger than 1/2 of the across the flats dimension of theintended rod - use that culm. Only strive to make one rod from each 12'culm. Cattanach derives from the Scottish Clan Chattan - even I throw therest away.Bill - You have solid reasoning with the spirial method of staggeringBUT on my balance scale I chose the thought that with 2 nodes at eachlevel(opposite each other) the built in tensions would be exactly opposed toeachother and that they would tend to neutralize each other - so that is thestaggering method I use - 2 x 2 x 2. A side note here would be that except Perhaps middle of the road advice for the newcomer on node staggeringand flaming and such would be this - if you are making a Garrison taperusehis methods - if you are making a Young use his methods - that way youwillbe testing and seeing the differences in each and you are also making therod as closely to the intended as possible. After the different experiencesthen you can decide for yourself which you prefer. Make sense??? from mdscott@ibm.net Fri Jan 8 23:40:43 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA26130; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:40:29 GMT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Japanese rods Agreed. Thoughtfulness is a virtue too easily disregarded these days. Let us all be more considerate and focus on the bamboo and the trout andall of usas students of these two. Michael Max Satoh wrote: Art, Appreciate your thoughtfulness. Max Art Port wrote: All, I was just sitting here and wondering if Max is doing a slow burn (andChristian and his mentor). I think maybe we'd DEFINITELY better qualifyourstatements here before we inadvertantly insult one of our own whoseems tobe making a damn-fine product. I HATE "politically correct" in all itsforms but I think here we're nudging the edge of civility a littlewithoutintending to.Art At 07:41 AM 1/5/99, Darrell Lee wrote:I've seen a lot of junk Japanese rods, but I've seen one or two thatmightbe decent quality... Does anyone know what kind of cane they use andwho are some of the respected rod makers from Japan? I'm sure wecannotstereotype their rods as all inferior. I have one unmarked Japaneserodthat appears to be decent quality, not a Heddon mind you but betterthana low end H-I. I'm curious though because it has aluminum ferrulesthough... Darrell ======================================== From: john channer Subject: Re: ferrules (Again)Date: 1/5/99 6:52 AM At 10:52 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:I can't resist saying that on more then one occasion I have seen anolderJapanese rod in a box, in mint condition sell for over $100 atauctions(and in antique shops). Meanwhile I bid on and win a well-fished(wonderwhy) Granger in good shape for $35. Shaking my head in amazementthewholetime. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford chris;You should see the crap they want $150 or more for in the antiquestoresaround here. Decorators are running the price of these things way up,mostof what I see are worth about $5 for parts, if that much.Re: Japaneserods-Bear in mind what they were made for, thousands of G.I.'s returninghometogo fishing. I bet if we asked our friends in other countries, we wouldfindthat all cultures have had their Montagues and H.I.'s John from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 9 00:06:08 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Sat, 9 Jan 1999 06:05:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking in termsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Hello Andy. I haven't yet but am about to try. I plan on doing exactlythe same thing as I have been doing on the brass and phosphor bronze reelseats. I've turned a few small things in aluminum and didn't notice anynoticable differences to the brass. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10 minilathe with a Sherline cross slide that I added for small stuff. Prettystraight forward. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Hello List,Has anyone tried to turn their own aluminum reel seat?. Do you knowwhatare the procedures and equipments involved?. Thanks.Andy from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 9 00:13:44 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Sat, 9 Jan 1999 06:13:12 +0000 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Steve, If you're REAL serious it is easy. Go to http://www.maxnc.com whereyou'llsee that for about $2800 you can get a digitizing CNC mini- mill...all youhave to do is digitize one and duplicate it! I think the cheap way is to make (or have made) a die set, get yourself anarbor press, and press them out. I, too, am curious how people whoactuallydo make reelseats do this and have posted the same question to the list inhopes someone might share. (Obviously, I am NOT a machinist or a tool anddie maker.) George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Hello Andy. I haven't yet but am about to try. I plan on doing exactlythe same thing as I have been doing on the brass and phosphor bronzereelseats. I've turned a few small things in aluminum and didn't notice anynoticable differences to the brass. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10 minilathe with a Sherline cross slide that I added for small stuff. Prettystraight forward. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,Have you worked out a way of making the pocket in the cap for down- lockingslide band type seats?Steve from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 9 00:34:58 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Sat, 9 Jan 1999 06:34:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Pseudo science All the math and engineering is just to produce a MODEL to PREDICT how anactual rod will behave. The real world rod behaves how it behaves and thediscrepancies (between the model and the real rod) may be due tovariationsin materials, tolerance problems, an inaccurate or inadequate model, andprobably at least 10 more things that I am missing. If you find modelingthe rod's behavior to be cumbersome, don't do it! For most of us, it is ahobby...meant to be relaxing and enjoyable and not a daunting task. Where the modeling COULD be important (as a time and material saver),wouldbe in a business. But an existing business that already had tapers thatwere popular would have little need for modeling, too, until they wantedtoadd new tapers or change existing ones. George Bourke BTW--If you wanted your real rods to more closely match the modelprediction, you'd wind up testing the physical parameters on each culm ofcane that you used.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pseudo science Doug,Yes, rods are getting better, but doesn't rodbuilding conform to theaxiom"Invention is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."So many of the tapers that we still use were developed by trial anderror here,1thou less there" quickly.Perhaps the thought that cane, a natural material, varying inmechanicalproperties from piece to piece, can be analysed like a formed metal ingot,isgoing too far. But isn't that what we read so often? "This species ofbamboohas these mechanical properties..."If we were simply looking at the average tensile strength of a woodforstructural purposes, a beam, a joist, etc., that's one thing; however, theminute differences between pieces of cane make raging variancesbetween theperformance of rods. IMHO we can't think or theorize past this.Best regards,Reed "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: At 05:04 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit andmanyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry totheextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where thatpointis. We do not apear to have reached that point yet: 1. Rods apper to begettingbetter all the time. 2. We do not yet know the limits of what can bedonewith bamboo. Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / |\__/ \ / Douglas Easton |\ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com ||* from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 9 00:37:45 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A9A33870146; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:39:31 MST Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware At 10:20 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:Steve, If you're REAL serious it is easy. Go to http://www.maxnc.com whereyou'llsee that for about $2800 you can get a digitizing CNC mini- mill...all youhave to do is digitize one and duplicate it! I think the cheap way is to make (or have made) a die set, get yourself anarbor press, and press them out. I, too, am curious how people whoactuallydo make reelseats do this and have posted the same question to the listinhopes someone might share. (Obviously, I am NOT a machinist or a toolanddie maker.) George Bourke George;There are 2 other options,1-buy the butt caps,2-use a router and fingernail bit to mortice the reel seat and the threaded barrel and use a round,unpocketed cap. A carbide tipped router bit will cut aluminum as easily aswood and from what I have seen, will cut nickel as well.John from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 9 06:26:16 1999 (MET) Subject: test test --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Jan 9 07:32:50 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo science Onis,Modern science came up with the graphite rod-about as far removed from caneas Kitty Hawk is from the Moon Lander. :-)Regards,Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sat Jan 9 07:33:33 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo science Reed,All of my experience over the last 20 years or so trying to duplicateactions on a given taper tell me that you're absolutely correct. We can holdeverything the same and still get variations in actions on the same taper.Best regards,Hank W. from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jan 9 07:41:26 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? In a message dated 1/9/99 3:18:06 AM, you wrote: Paul - Monel is an alloy of Nickel and copper that is known for corrosionresistance. I would think it is harder to machine than the brasses or nickelsilver. I suspect it would work well in a drawn ferrule, but be moredifficultto work with in a solid or tubing based ferrule. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 9 08:41:43 1999 Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? Tom,Monel is difficult to work with. It is just about pure nickel. I got some1/16monel rods draw to a suitable size wire for tip tops. It works greatbecause itcan be coloured and the material work hardens.I do not think monel could be used for ferrules. My guess is that it woulddragand bind up.Terry Ackland TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/9/99 3:18:06 AM, you wrote: hardware? Does anyone know the details on why Monel isn't used anymore?>> Paul - Monel is an alloy of Nickel and copper that is known for corrosionresistance. I would think it is harder to machine than the brasses ornickelsilver. I suspect it would work well in a drawn ferrule, but be moredifficultto work with in a solid or tubing based ferrule. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 9 08:57:33 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Onis,now that is an idea. How about laser guided smart flies?Terry Ackland Onis Cogburn wrote: Pardon me, but I've just got to throw this in. How long has the bow beenaround? It took modern science to make the compound bow and with it'slaser sights and other fancy gizmos, it's about as far from that thing theIndians used as the moon lander is from Kitty Hawk. IMHO. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from santos@esinet.net Sat Jan 9 09:22:07 1999 10:22:04 -0500 Subject: Garrison tan silks Anybody know where I can get the Garrison tan silks or their closestapproximation? Thanks. from rcurry@top.monad.net Sat Jan 9 09:32:17 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Onis, yearsago when I was searching through archery shops for a recurve bow for myson. Nothing. Finally, a shopkeeper explained it to me, "With one of thesenew bows and sights, a person who has never shot a bow can score firsttime out." That was not what I was looking for, I wanted my son to learnnew skills. I'd as soon buy him sinkers and bobbers (excuse me, weightsand strike indicators) plant him at at pool with a plastic stick and teachhim "Short line nymphing". That would make him a modern fly fisherman.[BTW, I did show him the joys of sitting on a bank with a hook, bobber,and worm in the water fishing for whatever comes along. This is one oflife's joys still, IMHO.] that no matter how much theory is employed, the material (cane) will stillwork its own way. All Payne rods of a particular taper are not greatcastinginstruments, all will be good, but the whimsy of the material, and theskill of the craftsman, will make some stand out above the rest. Whatof the skill of final "tuning" of the rod? Is this a lost art, or a myth?Best regards,ReedBTW - I'm certainly not against innovation. I'm actually paid to comeup with new ideas (more fools they).Onis Cogburn wrote: How long has the bow been withit'slaser sights and other fancy gizmos, it's about as far from that thingthe Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 9 09:43:02 1999 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware I don't know that I can contribute much George. I am just a "shade treemachinest". If there is something I want to do, I try to do it simple andI try and do it cheap; that way the failures don't get to expensive. I amsomewhat at a loss on the downlocking approach. I have a strongpreference have my lathe set up like the one on "Varmit Al's" web page so I wouldprobably try milling the pocket first. After that failed, I would probablytry this. If the barrel in turned to the normal OD (about .7") with the last .4" or.5" steped up to .75", a slot for the reel can be cut in the stepped upsection. a tight fitting slip ring about .5" long would finish it. Turn anice looking end and you are done. You can see the uplocking influence so this approach might not lookattractive to you. All in all, the die set is probably the best way to go. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking in termsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 9 10:08:02 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Rods are getting better cosmetically because they are all hand made byamateursas a side line without the burden of trying to live off the income.You cannot compare, say, Leonard who's total output was about 50,000rods to aguy scraping away in his basement with a planing form for a hobby.The present interest in cane rods is going to disappear unless they can bereproduced in numbers faster than can be accomplished with a plane.T. AcklandDouglas P. Easton wrote: At 05:04 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysis andthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit andmanyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry to theextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where that pointis. We do not apear to have reached that point yet: 1. Rods apper to begettingbetter all the time. 2. We do not yet know the limits of what can be donewith bamboo. Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / |\__/ \ / Douglas Easton |\ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com ||* from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jan 9 10:13:07 1999 LAA118744;Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:12:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Cane Selection =_NextPart_000_01BE3BC0.F9AD5B00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3BC0.F9AD5B00 Wayne,Thanks, my friend. Your thinking seems sound to me--on all issues. Although the business of node staggering 1-against-5 (as in spiral) or 2X2 may be, in the end, an academic issue, I think it's worth thinking ALL these issuesthrough. Some, recently, might label such discussions and the connectedexperiments as "pseudo-science," but I don't know how we can possiblydiscover what matters in rod-making and what doesn't, if we don't gothrough the processes of trial, error, measuring and discussing. As analternative, I suppose we could each just hole-up in our own basementsandcrank out "poles" according to our hunches, and be satisfied if they catcha fish. Cheers, Bill----------From: Wayne Cattanach Subject: Re: Cane SelectionDate: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:23 AM The Subject could be one of many areas of rod making. We will disagreeoratleast we do things differently. Perhaps the best explanation is that eachofus judge the issues differently. For the new comers to the list or torodmaking as a whole this disagreement may seem confusing. For anexample -let's use glue. For many years the standard of the industry was URAC. Butwhen I started I didn't like the rapid setting of the glue. When Iweightedthe issues on my balance scale a new found Nyatex epoxy won out. Is itbetter than URAC ???I made the decision that it was at least equal.Meanwhile John Zimney looked at the situation and decided to alter theelement of URAC vs jump ship as I did - then there are others that chosetouse it as it comes sharpening their techniques. Well ???? Which is themostcorrect ???The advantage of a list or a get together is that quality informationisshared - but can it be information over load? Perhaps there should berequired homework assignments - I think that a fair statement would bethatmany have done just that. But in the rocket science labs of ourbasementsthere will be different results.I can assure all the newcomers that your first results will be farbetter than mine - you have the advantage of an excellent supportsystem-The AA of rodmaking. But I will also tell you that you will hit against aproblem along the way that will baffle you. And for everyone it will besomething different.Now for an opinion about bamboo - It appears as if the tapering offofthe power fibers in a 12' culm of bamboo runs somewhat in line with theusual taper of a finished fly rod. If you measure the depth of solidlypacked power fibers at the butt end of a culm of bamboo and if thatdimension is larger than 1/2 of the across the flats dimension of theintended rod - use that culm. Only strive to make one rod from each 12'culm. Cattanach derives from the Scottish Clan Chattan - even I throwtherest away.Bill - You have solid reasoning with the spirial method of staggeringBUT on my balance scale I chose the thought that with 2 nodes at eachlevel(opposite each other) the built in tensions would be exactly opposed toeachother and that they would tend to neutralize each other - so that is thestaggering method I use - 2 x 2 x 2. A side note here would be thatexcept -Perhaps middle of the road advice for the newcomer on nodestaggeringand flaming and such would be this - if you are making a Garrison taperusehis methods - if you are making a Young use his methods - that way youwillbe testing and seeing the differences in each and you are also making therod as closely to the intended as possible. After the differentexperiencesthen you can decide for yourself which you prefer. Make sense??? ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3BC0.F9AD5B00 Wayne,Thanks, myfriend. = the business of node staggering 1-against-5 (as in spiral) or 2X2 = might label such discussions and the connected experiments as = discover what matters in rod-making and what doesn't, if we don't go =through the processes of trial, error, measuring and discussing. = hunches, and be satisfied if they catch a fish. Cheers, = Cattanach = do things differently. Perhaps the best explanation is that each = = assignments = than mine - you have the advantage of an excellent support system = = intended rod - use that culm. Only strive to make one rod from each = = BUT on my balance scale I chose the thought that with 2 nodes at each = = rod as closely to the intended as possible. After the different = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3BC0.F9AD5B00-- from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sat Jan 9 10:43:55 1999 Subject: Re: Thinning Flex Coat I believe MEK is a good thinner for FlexCoat but haven't tried it yet. Regards, Bob On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Have had the exact same problems with flex coat. I refinished a $20 fleamarket rod 2 weeks ago. Tried to thin the Flex cote with acetone.Instructions on the can read that it is used for thinning epoxies. 14 dayslater and it's still not dry. Live and learn. Max, what are you using tothin your flex cote?Paul from Canerods@aol.com Sat Jan 9 11:01:41 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo I just happened to catch a "Victory Garden" show on TLC, they werebuilt\dinga bamboo fence and went to a bamboo grower in the state of LA. Then theywentto the fencemaker in N.E. - he had 1600 (?) culms of tonkin cane plus manyother cane types. Interesting show - I recorded most of it. Don Burns from destinycon@mindspring.com Sat Jan 9 11:02:20 1999 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them frombrass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with a keywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correct shape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected. Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking in termsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 9 11:10:32 1999 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Pseudo science Terry,I was thinking more in the line of fiber optic fly line with a programmablelaser built into the reel. Send feeding inducing pulses down the line andbroadcast them using a synthetic diamond fly. If we could get theelectronics small enough, maybe we could build the rod on a rail gunprincipal and catapault the fly line rather than casting it. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,now that is an idea. How about laser guided smart flies?Terry Ackland from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 9 11:23:09 1999 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Pseudo science I'll have to agree with you but I will add this. For me, all the fun is inthe chase. If I ever build anything that meets my expectations, I am goingto hang it up; the race is over and there's no place to go (except maybe tostart another race?) Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com What I was trying to say in my previous email was that no matter howmuch theory is employed, the material (cane) will still work its own way.All Payne rods of a particular taper are not great casting instruments, allwill be good, but the whimsy of the material, and the skill of thecraftsman, will make some stand out above the rest. What of the skill offinal "tuning" of the rod? Is this a lost art, or a myth? Best regards, Reed BTW - I'm certainly not against innovation. I'm actually paid to come upwith new ideas (more fools they). from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 9 11:34:06 1999 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Thinning Flex Coat I bought a can of "Zynolyte" epoxy thinner at Home Depot. I've used itwith several epoxies including Flex Coat. It stretches the curing time formost but not a lot(evaporating time of the thinner). Flex Coat was curedin 24 hours after diluting 50/50. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com I believe MEK is a good thinner for FlexCoat but haven't tried it yet. Regards, Bob On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Paul York wrote: Have had the exact same problems with flex coat. I refinished a $20fleamarket rod 2 weeks ago. Tried to thin the Flex cote with acetone.Instructions on the can read that it is used for thinning epoxies. 14 dayslater and it's still not dry. Live and learn. Max, what are you using tothin your flex cote?Paul from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Sat Jan 9 14:17:16 1999 PAA15974 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:14:09 - 0500 Subject: Pseudo Science Terrance,You couldn't be more wrong. The resurgence in the interest in bamboo rods has been because of us " guys scraping away in our basements". People are interested in bamboo because they can take a raw product and with alot of their own time come up with something they'll be proud to fish. Bamboo rodmakers will never be able to compete against the convenience of graphite. It has become and will remain a cottage industry. Scraping away,Craig Adams from bjust@bellsouth.net Sat Jan 9 14:44:48 1999 PAA26332 Subject: Lathes I'm new to this list and greatly appreciate all the information everyoneis sharing. So far I have only built graphite rods, but I hope tochange this and begin in bamboo. My question is about lathes, mainly ifI can get by with a mini wood lathe that will accept a 3 jaw chuck or doI need to get a more precision lathe like the mini precision lathe fromHarbor Freight(the $399 one). I want to use this lathe for turningferrule stations, turning cork, and making realseats(not the hardware). Thanks, Brian Justiss from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Jan 9 16:41:23 1999 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Lathes BrianYou could get by without a lathe but . . I only have a cheapo woodlathe headstock with a 3 jaw chuck. It allows me to turn grips andmount and fit ferrules - what more do you want? If you want to makeferrules andreel seats hardware then that is another story. Chris On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:38:52 -0600, BRIAN JUSTISS wrote: I'm new to this list and greatly appreciate all the information everyoneis sharing. So far I have only built graphite rods, but I hope tochange this and begin in bamboo. My question is about lathes, mainly ifI can get by with a mini wood lathe that will accept a 3 jaw chuck or doI need to get a more precision lathe like the mini precision lathe fromHarbor Freight(the $399 one). I want to use this lathe for turningferrule stations, turning cork, and making realseats(not the hardware). Thanks, Brian Justiss Regards Chris from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 9 16:46:49 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Craig,I am not sure cane rod building has to be a cottage industry. Premiumgraphite rods have reached such a high price that I think it is possible Please do not confuse the word 'production' with the word 'cheap'. Allrods retailed during the heyday of cane were production rods includingLeonard and Payne.The Garrison book gives a method of building rods that is great for ahobby and relaxation, it is not a way to generate an income.Terry Ackland DR CRAIG P ADAMS wrote: Terrance,You couldn't be more wrong. The resurgence in the interest in bamboorods has been because of us " guys scraping away in our basements".People are interested in bamboo because they can take a raw productand with alot of their own time come up with something they'll beproud to fish. Bamboo rodmakers will never be able to competeagainst the convenience of graphite. It has become and will remain acottage industry. Scraping away,Craig Adams from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 9 18:16:50 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A1D323001C0; Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:18:27 MST Subject: Re: Cane Selection At 11:12 AM 1/9/99 -0800, Wayne wrote:-Perhaps middle of the road advice for the newcomer on nodestaggeringand flaming and such would be this - if you are making a Garrison taperusehis methods - if you are making a Young use his methods - that way youwillbe testing and seeing the differences in each and you are also makingtherod as closely to the intended as possible. After the differentexperiencesthen you can decide for yourself which you prefer. Make sense??? Which naturally leads to the question,What pattern did Young(Paul, notTony)use?John from cattanac@wmis.net Sat Jan 9 19:18:54 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP Subject: Re: Cane Selection John -PHY used a 2 x 2 x 2 staggering - by the way the Dickersons I have seenusea 3 x 3 from swilson1@WHC.NET Sat Jan 9 20:06:56 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, it wouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to pay extra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who do this IM very HO,Scott Wilson from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 9 21:44:44 1999 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them from brass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with a keywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correct shape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected.Regards,Gary H. Gary,I can see the die idea, but how do you press the brass over the die to shapethe pocket? Can you force the die with the brass piece around it into aringthat has a slot cut into it?Steve from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jan 9 22:48:30 1999 Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:48:06 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: restoring impregnated rods? On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/9/99 3:18:06 AM, you wrote: hardware? Does anyone know the details on why Monel isn't used anymore?>> Monel is extremly hard stuff to work compared to ns as well as being a lotmore expensive than other metals that do the job.If you had some lying about and tried it it'd be interesting to know howit goes though as it wont corrode in a hurry. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jan 9 22:54:31 1999 Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:54:15 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware I wonder if RCBS or whoever else is doing reloading dies would make dies and the reloading press has well and truly enough grunt to form them andbutt reel seat pieces.Tell 'em you're a wildcatter with a new concept in rifle cartridges. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Onis Cogburn wrote: You can see the uplocking influence so this approach might not lookattractive to you. All in all, the die set is probably the best way to go. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking in termsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jan 9 23:06:18 1999 Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:06:04 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware When you form cartridges for a wildcater you often need to anneal astandard cartridge before forming the new. To do that I used to sit all the original std cartridges in water up to the point I wanted to heattreat then hit the necks and shoulders with a gas torch to anneal andknock the case over into the water at the right time. Thewater prevents the rest of the case from annealing as well. To make the dies I used a straight line die that consists of a die made from a piece of steel like an old axle bored out to size and a strongvise that squeezed the case into the die. In the case of ferrules and reelseatparts you'd use a male die also when fressing.If you try this make sure you use case lube or you'll be reaming theferrule out of the die. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Heidt wrote: George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them frombrass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with a keywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correct shape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected. Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking in termsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 9 23:06:54 1999 Subject: Army Training Manuals I have lost all of my stored list messages.A while back there was a reference to a website for US Army trainingmanuals Steve from lblan@provide.net Sat Jan 9 23:34:43 1999 Subject: U. S. Army Training Manuals This is the URL I have for the manuals. The link didn't work when I triedit... http://www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm from chris@artistree.com Sun Jan 10 01:10:23 1999 Subject: Re: U. S. Army Training Manuals mac-creator="4D4F5353" Yes, they changed the address a while back. I spent half a night trying torelocate where the Army had put them. And what da ya know I found them.Lotsof good stuff here, although for some reason they wouldn't allow me todownload how to fix an Army Black hawk helicopter :) Army Doctrine and Training Digital Libraryaddress is: http://155.217.58.58 FUNDAMENTALS OF MACHINE TOOLS Manualaddress is: http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Larry Blan wrote: This is the URL I have for the manuals. The link didn't work when I triedit... http://www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Jan 10 05:13:38 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:13:34 +0100 Subject: Sv: U. S. Army Training Manuals http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htm regards, Carsten from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Sun Jan 10 08:14:59 1999 Subject: Suppliers in/around Miami boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0117_01BE3CA3.56844F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0117_01BE3CA3.56844F40 I will be in the Miami area and possibly Sarasota (Miami boat show and =to see some customers) in mid Feb. Are there any good shops that are =worth visiting in the area for supplies of silks, reel seats etc - =things that'll fit in a suitcase anyway! If there's any www's then let =me know and I'll chase it down that wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0117_01BE3CA3.56844F40 I will be in the Miami area and = any good shops that are worth visiting in the area for supplies of = then let me know and I'll chase it down that wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0117_01BE3CA3.56844F40-- from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 10 08:28:24 1999 Subject: Re: Army Training Manuals Steve,Try: http://www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Art At 10:06 PM 1/9/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote:I have lost all of my stored list messages.A while back there was a reference to a website for US Army trainingmanuals Steve from channer@hubwest.com Sun Jan 10 09:12:36 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A3CE23301E8; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:14:22 MST Subject: Ragnarig Davy;Drop me a line to discuss the cork order, I seem to have misplaced youremail address Johnchanner@hubwest.com from paullyon@epix.net Sun Jan 10 09:14:59 1999 ESMTP id KAA08542; Subject: Re: Pseudo Science mac-creator="4D4F5353" Scott: There's not a tremendous market for cane rods because they're too damnedexpensive for average working stiffs like me. If, as Terry suggests, wecould find ways to make quality rods more affordable, the market wouldexpand. I think most average fly fishermen feel cane rods, and most ofwhat Orvis and some of these other pricey outfits sell, is strictly forthe well-to-do. I have a few cane rods in my arsenal because I've foundthem at yard sales and in widows' basements. Much as I would like to, Icould never justify spending $1,000-plus on a bamboo rod. My wife woulddivorce me. So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm not terriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper and moredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Scott Wilson wrote: If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, it wouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to pay extra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who do this IM very HO,Scott Wilson from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Jan 10 09:37:52 1999 (modemcable84.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: Tapered groove in steel forms BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_geWuO0QCAwlSOOuUUguQag)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_geWuO0QCAwlSOOuUUguQag) The machinist hired to make my planing forms was able to do everythingexcept mill the 60 degree tapered grooves. I'm now deciding whether tomakethe groove myself using a 60 degree lathe cutting tool (as per Howell, etal) or find a machinist with an 80 inch mill bed to do this. For those ofyou who have built your own steel forms, how long did it take to make thegroove? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_geWuO0QCAwlSOOuUUguQag) machinist hired to make my planing forms was able to do everything = the 60 degree tapered grooves. I'm now deciding whether to make the = myself using a 60 degree lathe cutting tool (as per Howell, et al) or = machinist with an 80 inch mill bed to do this. For those of you who have = groove? in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_geWuO0QCAwlSOOuUUguQag)-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Jan 10 10:04:32 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Tapered groove in steel forms Richard - It will take you several hours, but is not a difficult task. I havedone it with a file, rather than the lathe tool, but either method will work.Navigate your way to Tom Penrose's site, or refer to his article in " TheBamboo Fly Rod" and the file method will be explained. The big error toavoidis to be careful about taking off too much in the tip section. .025 doesn'tlook like much when you are doing the job, and it's easy to go too far. Don'tbe intimidated, if you are careful, you can do an excellent job. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 10 10:25:55 1999 hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo science Onis, Terry et al,I have been wondreing if we couldn't come up with a system that wouldmakedry flies flutter on the water-I don't think fiber optics would do it ,but aspecial fly line and a power source in the reel and a special leader mightbedesigned and, after fluttering the fly ,when the fish took we couldincreasethe power,stun him and avoid all that wasted time playing the pesky thing.:-)Hank W. from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 10 10:28:40 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science (Glass vs. Cane) Paul,I'd like to address the comments below, they form part of the mythologyofcane.#1 You can get good-to-great cane rods, used, from some of thedealers in that realm. Bob Corsetti, for example, usually has 100+ in hisquarterly catalogs. Many of the 8 foot and longer rods are below $500 (theprice of a Sage) and carry the finest names.Remember also, the"production"rods were often designed and built to high standards, Edwards Bristol isoneexample; I've bought these for as little as $40, ready to fish, with twotips,etc. New cane rods can be had for less than $600. Some of our listmembersproduce these#2 Cane was not replaced by glass becausea/ glass was more durable - in saltwater applications, glasswas desirable because of less care, but many boat rods were still cane. Infreshwater applications it had no superior durability, nor initially did ithave a history of longevity, as cane did.b/ glass was cheaper - initially glass was more expensive thancane, rod against rod. However, the introduction of glass was also theintroduction of spinning reels and monofilament line. Cane builders had noperformance advantage in flipping a lure, fly rods were their bread andbutter. Spinning drove flyfishing into the background for several decades;some of the biggest names among the fishing press moved over to writingaboutspinning. The production rod companies, e.g., Heddon, South Bend, etc.,switched to production of glass spinning, and fly rods, while the smallerproduction cane rod builders closed shop, e.g., F.E. Thomas, the Edwards',etc., during this period of decline of flyfishing.The preeminent reason, IMHO, that glass forced cane from the forefrontwasnovelty. I remember in the early sixties, a friend, who had some nice caneflyrods, showing me the wonderful new "Fiberglass" flyrod that he'dpurchased.Russ Peak was selling his FRP flyrods for more than most paid for cane.But"The Age of Science" decreed that new was betterJust a little history, as I see it.Best regards,Reed Paul Lyon wrote: So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm not terriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper and moredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Scott Wilson wrote: If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, itwouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to pay extra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who dothis IM very HO,Scott Wilson from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 10 10:44:32 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo science Hank,Could we also incorporate a small speaker in the fly. Jeff Goldblumsqueakingout "Help me, Help me" might be a great fish call.Best regards,Reed FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Onis, Terry et al,I have been wondreing if we couldn't come up with a system thatwould makedry flies flutter on the water-I don't think fiber optics would do it ,but aspecial fly line and a power source in the reel and a special leader mightbedesigned and, after fluttering the fly ,when the fish took we couldincreasethe power,stun him and avoid all that wasted time playing the peskything.:-)Hank W. from tomrichard@email.msn.com Sun Jan 10 10:45:09 1999 SMTPSVC;Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:44:30 -0800 Subject: PLANING FORMS ANOTHER QUESTION from A NEWBIE. HAS ANYONE USED A VERITAS SHARPENING JIG TO MAKETHE GROOVE IN STEEL PLANING FORMS? I AM STILL UNDECIDED BETWEEN THE TRIANGLE FILE, THELATHE TOOL AND NOW THE VERITAS JIG. THANKS TOM from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 10 10:49:15 1999 swilson1@WHC.NET Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo Science To All,I believe that other materials supplanted cane because they werecheaper tomake. I consider graphite and fiberglass to be just as fragile as cane andingraphite's case even more so. I'm hard on my rods-I've broken twice asmanygraphite rods as I have cane and I fish cane most of the time.Just my $.02.Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 10 10:54:30 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo science Reed, Not in any thing smaller than size 18.Regards,Hank. from destinycon@mindspring.com Sun Jan 10 11:19:51 1999 Subject: Re: Turning brass reel seat hardware Steve,I'm not using anything around the outside of the cap while pressing.After turning and annealing the cap I am just pressing over the die. Atfirst I was using a vise but wasn't aplying even pressure causing the dieto twist and turn as it was going in. I'm now using a hydraulic press(local tech school) and have turned a new die that fits and locks on to theplunger of the press so it can not twist or cant off center as it entersthe cap. I also clamp a piece of 1/8" plate steel with a hole (that justfits the OD of the cap) on the table of the press that the cap sits in, I'msure this is over kill but I already have it made so I use it. After thefirst pressing I change to the larger die and repeat. At first I wasgetting cracks, splitting, and a lot of distortion but by changing thecap's wall thickness, annealing tempratures, and the rate of pressing I amnow getting very good results (could not have been more than 50 or sotries)(SEG). As soon as the NS bar stock I've ordered arrives I'll see howmany dollars I can waste trying to press it....news at eleven.Regards,Gary H. At 08:43 PM 1/9/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote:Gary,I can see the die idea, but how do you press the brass over the die toshapethe pocket? Can you force the die with the brass piece around it into aringthat has a slot cut into it?Steve from stuart.tod@virgin.net Sun Jan 10 12:58:25 1999 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id AAA5686 +0000 Subject: Ocean City 90 Reel This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------501E765F7FF2 I've recently aquired an 'Ocean City 90' Automatic fly reel....any ofyou American cousins out there that can tell me anything about it? Hopefully, Stuart --------------501E765F7FF2 newmail.virgin.net(Post.Office MTA Undefined release Undefined (InterMail v4.0 201-227) with ESMTP Subject: Re: Turning brass reel seat hardware Steve,I'm not using anything around the outside of the cap while pressing.After turning and annealing the cap I am just pressing over the die. Atfirst I was using a vise but wasn't aplying even pressure causing the dieto twist and turn as it was going in. I'm now using a hydraulic press(local tech school) and have turned a new die that fits and locks on to theplunger of the press so it can not twist or cant off center as it entersthe cap. I also clamp a piece of 1/8" plate steel with a hole (that justfits the OD of the cap) on the table of the press that the cap sits in, I'msure this is over kill but I already have it made so I use it. After thefirst pressing I change to the larger die and repeat. At first I wasgetting cracks, splitting, and a lot of distortion but by changing thecap's wall thickness, annealing tempratures, and the rate of pressing I amnow getting very good results (could not have been more than 50 or sotries)(SEG). As soon as the NS bar stock I've ordered arrives I'll see howmany dollars I can waste trying to press it....news at eleven.Regards,Gary H. At 08:43 PM 1/9/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote:Gary,I can see the die idea, but how do you press the brass over the die toshapethe pocket? Can you force the die with the brass piece around it into aringthat has a slot cut into it?Steve --------------501E765F7FF2-- from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 10 13:40:51 1999 ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo science Oh, Oh, Oh...What about an RC submarine. We could build little torpedoswith explosive heads (a reloading cap would probably work). Just sail upto the sucker and torpedo him. Ought to work ok for bass but navigatingthe swift water for trout might be a problem. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis, Terry et al,I have been wondreing if we couldn't come up with a system that wouldmakedry flies flutter on the water-I don't think fiber optics would do it ,but aspecial fly line and a power source in the reel and a special leader mightbedesigned and, after fluttering the fly ,when the fish took we couldincreasethe power,stun him and avoid all that wasted time playing the peskything.:-)Hank W. from Finanplanr@aol.com Sun Jan 10 13:46:37 1999 Subject: The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod, 2nd. Edition Announcement Folks, Many of you have expressed chagrin and disappointment at the difficultyandexpense of obtaining a copy of my book The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod, AMaster'sSecrets of Restoration and Repair, originally published in 1986, andrecentlyselling for $250 in Sporting Book Catalogs.. In an effort to make my book more readily available, and at a reasonableprice, to all who have been searching for a copy, I am happy to announcethepublication of a Second Edition, which is expected to be available in theSpring of 1999. If you are interested in ordering a copy, please e-mail me off-list at Finanplanr @ aol.com (spaces added for readability) for price and orderinginformation. I hope this is helpful to those of you who have been searching for a copy. Sincerely,Stuart Kirkfield from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Sun Jan 10 14:34:10 1999 PAA12444 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:33:08 - 0500 Subject: pseudo science Hey Onis,You can buy a complete one man submarine in Herrington's catalog. Unfortunately the cost is rather high (even for us cane guys). I think it will set you back $100,000. Maybe one of those Army manuals will have information regarding torpedoes. CraigPS I have found throwing hand grenades in the general vicinity of rising trout to be effective,but if you miss'em you really put them down. It brings new meaning to "resting a pool" from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Sun Jan 10 15:46:57 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Paul:I totally sympathise with your sentiments about the cost of Bamboo rodstoday. I have seen one professional rodmaker whose name I won't mention,over here in the UK. In the space of about four years increased the cost ofhis rods from £275 to over £1000 for his work. If you want to purchase anAmerican Fly rod and import it over here. Forget the exchange rate. Withduty and import taxes we would have to pay in Pounds Sterling what ischarged in Dollars, Stateside. The bread and butter fly Rods that weremade average angler before glassfibre and Carbon came on the scene, have allbutgone with the decline in demand for Bamboo rod. That has only left theelite Rod makers left to cater for a niche market. I'm not convinced, butthey say they have to charge so much to have some sort of a descent livingand they cannot even afford to buy their own rods! One thing that is true. In the halcyon days of Fly Fishing when the likesof Halford, Marryat and Skues graced the Chalkstreams there was no suchthing as a cheap fly rod. I have a copy of a 1937 Hardy cataloge which Itreasure. A "Halford" Dry fly rod cost then £11 4 0, a Crown Houghton £9 00 and a CC de France £4 5 6. I am sure to most average people in the UKthen that was more than six months pay. George Edward Mackenzie Skuesbought his first Leonard in 1903 after receiving a legacy! My angling herowas given his famous Leonard the WBR in 1905 as a gift by a gratefullclient! and he was a solicitor by profession. I am sure Lawyers made goodmoney then as they do now. John Gierach made the point in his book Fishingbamboo that in relation to what on average people made then Rods wereexpensive. Comparitively speaking new fly rods at todays prices inrelationto an average persons salary would actually be cheaper. Yeh Right!! itshard to swallow, but its true. Personally I wish Bamboo rods were not asexpensive as they are, or that I could turn out a beautiful creation of myown. To have a rod as Skues did and fish with it for over 50 years inpreference to any other is a dream I cherish, but I fear I may become anold man before I get the chance. Still it is something to aim for. Peter McLeodDorset England. At 10:18 10/01/99 +0000, you wrote:Scott: There's not a tremendous market for cane rods because they're toodamnedexpensive for average working stiffs like me. If, as Terry suggests, wecould find ways to make quality rods more affordable, the market wouldexpand. I think most average fly fishermen feel cane rods, and most ofwhat Orvis and some of these other pricey outfits sell, is strictly forthe well-to-do. I have a few cane rods in my arsenal because I've foundthem at yard sales and in widows' basements. Much as I would like to, Icould never justify spending $1,000-plus on a bamboo rod. My wife woulddivorce me. So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm not terriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper and moredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Scott Wilson wrote: If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, it wouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to pay extra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who do this IM very HO,Scott Wilson from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Jan 10 16:53:19 1999 QAA24999 Subject: Prohibitive cost of bamboo To look at the cost of bamboo with another perspective, if aprofessional puts 30 hours in a rod and garners say $1200 for hisefforts, then must turn around and pay for his supplies, shop,insurance, advertisement, tools and what ever the cost of his personalguarantees are. He sure isn't going to be setting the world on firefinancially. My thoughts about amatuers selling rods? An amatuer being anyone whoisn't deriving the major source of his income from the effort (IMHO).Supply and demand. If I've made it, and someone wants it for x amount ofdollars then what anyone else may think about the transaction is besidethe point. Just some observations from a relative newcomer, that probably don'tamount to much, so don't anyone get too excited over them. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 10 17:13:25 1999 ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: PLANING FORMS I haven't used the Veritas jig but I have made two forms. The first I made from aluminum backed with maple and used the lathe tool. The second Imade from steel and used the file. I found the file much easier and did a muchbetter job. KBC tools sells a 60 degree rotary file. I've wondered how that wouldworkwith a router. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com ANOTHER QUESTION from A NEWBIE. HAS ANYONE USED A VERITAS SHARPENING JIG TO MAKETHE GROOVE IN STEEL PLANING FORMS? I AM STILL UNDECIDED BETWEEN THE TRIANGLE FILE, THELATHE TOOL AND NOW THE VERITAS JIG. THANKS TOM from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 10 17:22:11 1999 ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: pseudo science Do they have a set of legs or at least knees that you can attach so you cancrawl around in shallow water creeks? I found a 22 pistol works pretty well when they are rising. You get meatand target practice at the same time. I made a mistake once though. Tookmy 44 mag'. Didn't leave enough of the fish to clean. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Hey Onis,You can buy a complete one man submarine in Herrington's catalog. Unfortunately the cost is rather high (even for us cane guys). I think it will set you back $100,000. Maybe one of those Army manuals will have information regarding torpedoes. CraigPS I have found throwing hand grenades in the general vicinity of rising trout to be effective,but if you miss'em you really put them down. It brings new meaning to "resting a pool" from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Jan 10 18:03:40 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: BBFR List,Has everyone received their copy of the magazine yet? I got mine onwednesdaythis week. Bret from caneboy@xtn.net Sun Jan 10 18:09:51 1999 Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:09:10 -0500 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: BBFR No, I did not recieve mine. I had to pick one up at the local fly shopthree to four weeks ago! Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,Has everyone received their copy of the magazine yet? I got mine onwednesdaythis week.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 10 18:17:57 1999 Subject: Re: pseudo science Craig,you cannot beat the good old north American way- Don't cast to them,just put on you waders and tread on the bastards.Terry DR CRAIG P ADAMS wrote: Hey Onis,You can buy a complete one man submarine in Herrington's catalog.Unfortunately the cost is rather high (even for us cane guys). Ithink it will set you back $100,000. Maybe one of those Armymanuals will have information regarding torpedoes.CraigPS I have found throwing hand grenades in the general vicinity ofrising trout to be effective,but if you miss'em you really put themdown. It brings new meaning to "resting a pool" from mdscott@ibm.net Sun Jan 10 18:28:15 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA13060; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:28:06 GMT Subject: Re: Pseudo science All this is reminds me of the "little gray bastard" story about the manwho,after catching countless fish, broke off his last fly. Making a quick visittothe local shop he was asked by the proprietor what insect the fish weretakingand what fly he had been using. The man replied, holding up a new fly,"Hell, Idon't know, I'm just catching them on this little gray bastard." Now, this man certainly caught a mess of fish, but he didn't know why. Nordidhe care. Norman Maclean observed, "...it is not fly fishing if you are not looking foranswers to questions." I think for some, the same can be said about making excellent splitbamboo flyrods. Michael irish-george wrote: All the math and engineering is just to produce a MODEL to PREDICT howanactual rod will behave. The real world rod behaves how it behaves andthediscrepancies (between the model and the real rod) may be due tovariationsin materials, tolerance problems, an inaccurate or inadequate model, andprobably at least 10 more things that I am missing. If you find modelingthe rod's behavior to be cumbersome, don't do it! For most of us, it is ahobby...meant to be relaxing and enjoyable and not a daunting task. Where the modeling COULD be important (as a time and material saver),wouldbe in a business. But an existing business that already had tapers thatwere popular would have little need for modeling, too, until they wantedtoadd new tapers or change existing ones. George Bourke BTW--If you wanted your real rods to more closely match the modelprediction, you'd wind up testing the physical parameters on each culmofcane that you used.-----Original Message-----From: reed Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:38 PMSubject: Re: Pseudo science Doug,Yes, rods are getting better, but doesn't rodbuilding conform to theaxiom"Invention is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."So many of the tapers that we still use were developed by trial anderror here,1thou less there" quickly.Perhaps the thought that cane, a natural material, varying inmechanicalproperties from piece to piece, can be analysed like a formed metalingot,isgoing too far. But isn't that what we read so often? "This species ofbamboohas these mechanical properties..."If we were simply looking at the average tensile strength of a woodforstructural purposes, a beam, a joist, etc., that's one thing; however, theminute differences between pieces of cane make raging variancesbetween theperformance of rods. IMHO we can't think or theorize past this.Best regards,Reed "Douglas P. Easton" wrote: At 05:04 PM 1/8/99 +0000, Paul Lyon wrote:One and all:In Terry's defense, I am somewhat of a like mind. I believe analysisandthorough investigation are essential to any mechanical pursuit andmanyother things (take marriage, for instance). But I agree with Terry totheextent that I think we can sometimes overthink things. We do reach apointof diminishing returns and sometimes we need to know where thatpointis. We do not apear to have reached that point yet: 1. Rods apper to begettingbetter all the time. 2. We do not yet know the limits of what can bedonewith bamboo. Nuff said. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA ____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / |\__/ \ / Douglas Easton |\ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com ||* from mdscott@ibm.net Sun Jan 10 18:43:32 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA82564; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:43:12 GMT Subject: Re: Pseudo Science It is possible for a single person to acquire the raw material to fashion abamboo fly rod from the "ground" up. However, it is not possible (orextremelyunlikely) for a single person to fashion a graphite rod from "raw" graphiteandscrim without an industrial-weight investment in a small factory toproduce theingredients. Consequently, those folks who make graphite rods makethousands ofthem, or thousands of blanks for wholesale to others. Economy of scaledictatesa "reasonable" price in relation to hand- made bamboo instruments. Lower price, high quality = big market. Now, one can think of bamboo fly rods as commodities or as unique, hand- makefishing implements. As a commodity I don't think I'd be all that interested.The price would be cheaper, but so what? Value, in this case, and for me, has little to do with the exchange rate,marketing channels and methods of production and more with the essenceof thething itself. Regards,Michael Peter McLeod wrote: Paul:I totally sympathise with your sentiments about the cost of Bamboo rodstoday. I have seen one professional rodmaker whose name I won'tmention,over here in the UK. In the space of about four years increased the costofhis rods from £275 to over £1000 for his work. If you want to purchaseanAmerican Fly rod and import it over here. Forget the exchange rate. Withduty and import taxes we would have to pay in Pounds Sterling what ischarged in Dollars, Stateside. The bread and butter fly Rods that weremade theaverage angler before glassfibre and Carbon came on the scene, have allbutgone with the decline in demand for Bamboo rod. That has only left theelite Rod makers left to cater for a niche market. I'm not convinced, butthey say they have to charge so much to have some sort of a descentlivingand they cannot even afford to buy their own rods! One thing that is true. In the halcyon days of Fly Fishing when the likesof Halford, Marryat and Skues graced the Chalkstreams there was no suchthing as a cheap fly rod. I have a copy of a 1937 Hardy cataloge which Itreasure. A "Halford" Dry fly rod cost then £11 4 0, a Crown Houghton £900 and a CC de France £4 5 6. I am sure to most average people in the UKthen that was more than six months pay. George Edward Mackenzie Skuesbought his first Leonard in 1903 after receiving a legacy! My angling herowas given his famous Leonard the WBR in 1905 as a gift by a gratefullclient! and he was a solicitor by profession. I am sure Lawyers madegoodmoney then as they do now. John Gierach made the point in his bookFishingbamboo that in relation to what on average people made then Rods wereexpensive. Comparitively speaking new fly rods at todays prices inrelationto an average persons salary would actually be cheaper. Yeh Right!! itshard to swallow, but its true. Personally I wish Bamboo rods were not asexpensive as they are, or that I could turn out a beautiful creation of myown. To have a rod as Skues did and fish with it for over 50 years inpreference to any other is a dream I cherish, but I fear I may become anold man before I get the chance. Still it is something to aim for. Peter McLeodDorset England. At 10:18 10/01/99 +0000, you wrote:Scott: There's not a tremendous market for cane rods because they're toodamnedexpensive for average working stiffs like me. If, as Terry suggests, wecould find ways to make quality rods more affordable, the market wouldexpand. I think most average fly fishermen feel cane rods, and most ofwhat Orvis and some of these other pricey outfits sell, is strictly forthe well-to-do. I have a few cane rods in my arsenal because I've foundthem at yard sales and in widows' basements. Much as I would like to, Icould never justify spending $1,000-plus on a bamboo rod. My wifewoulddivorce me. So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm notterriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper andmoredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Scott Wilson wrote: