If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, itwouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to payextra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who dothis IM very HO,Scott Wilson from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sun Jan 10 19:12:09 1999 Subject: Thinning Flex Coat Acetone works (as should MEK.but..haven't tried it) for thinning Flex Coat,just make sure you measure out part A and part B first then add no morethan 10% acetone. Flex coat is touchy stuff..a little too much A or B andit won't cure well. Also big note ... if the stuff's below 72 degrees itwon't mix properly and won't cure . For those "tacky" wraps just recoatwith Flex coat and the top coat will bond to the "tacky" coat and, if wellmeasured, mixed and above 72 degrees, will cure fine. I put both A & Bbottles in a coffee cup filled with hot water while I set up to wrap... afriend puts the bottles in front of a lamp ...if the bottles are just warmto the touch they'll work fine. If you don't want to thin the flex coat you can heat it after applying to the wrap with an alcohol lamp and thestuff will turn to a water like consistancy, then you can pull off theexcess with a brush and the wrap will smooth out as the rod turns. I flexcoat one wrap at a time then heat it, pull off the excess and smooth itout, then flex coat the next wrap. I usually end up mixing two(or three)batches of flex coat to do a rod. If you see a little puff of blue smoke asyou heat with the alcohol lamp you've just vaporized the Flex coat...justadd a little more flex coat and reheat. Acetone sometimes turns the flexcoat white...no problem... the acetone will evaporate and the flex coatwill cure clear. Hope some of this helps Dennis P.S. The guys at Corens Rod & Reel in Chicago do BIG boat rods with 10" ormore of wraps and use flex coat...they heat it with a torch ...wonderousthing to see. from Nodewrrior@aol.com Sun Jan 10 20:32:42 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science (Glass vs. Cane) Another reason I've always considered for glass superceeding cane salesin the50's is the China emabargo. Rob Hoffhines from spazz@choice.net Sun Jan 10 20:37:09 1999 VAA17255 Subject: Coating wraps with Varathane Hi all, How many coats is usually needed? Also, do you sand between coats? 400or 600 grit ok? And finally...wjats the difference between theVarathane 900 and the 90 (which seems to be easier to find...and hasanyone used the 92 which is the exterior/marine poly? thanks Kev from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 10 20:47:26 1999 Grhghlndr@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: BBFR I got mine Friday from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Jan 10 21:26:03 1999 Subject: Re: Coating wraps with Varathane Kevin,I use Varathane 90. It takes at least 5 un-thinned coats. The firsttwo or three coats will soak in and will not require the rod to be turned. Onabout the third or fourth coat, I turn the rod during application. I do notsand between coats. Kurt Loup from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 10 23:26:54 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:26:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Tony, Doesn't knocking them over in the water harden them rather than annealthem?I always thought that with annealing they were plunged into sand to coolvery slowly. George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware When you form cartridges for a wildcater you often need to anneal astandard cartridge before forming the new. To do that I used to sit allthe original std cartridges in water up to the point I wanted to heattreat then hit the necks and shoulders with a gas torch to anneal andknock the case over into the water at the right time. Thewater prevents the rest of the case from annealing as well. To make the dies I used a straight line die that consists of a die made from a piece of steel like an old axle bored out to size and a strongvise that squeezed the case into the die. In the case of ferrules and reelseatparts you'd use a male die also when fressing.If you try this make sure you use case lube or you'll be reaming theferrule out of the die. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Heidt wrote: George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them from brass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with akeywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correctshape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected.Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking intermsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jan 10 23:31:01 1999 Subject: Re: U. S. Army Training Manuals Yes, they changed the address a while back. I spent half a night trying torelocate where the Army had put them. And what da ya know I found them.Lotsof good stuff here, although for some reason they wouldn't allow me todownload how to fix an Army Black hawk helicopter :) Army Doctrine and Training Digital Libraryaddress is: http://155.217.58.58 FUNDAMENTALS OF MACHINE TOOLS Manualaddress is: http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Bingo Chris!You are persistent and I am grateful.Steve from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 04:39:13 1999 Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:36:53 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware In the case of the heat treatable ferrous metals yes which is whyoverheating a chisel or plane iron on a grinder can either draw thetemper if it's left to cool slowly or make the edge brittle if it'squenched but copper and all it's alloys as far as I know are the reverse. You need to experiment a bitbecause various alloys take different treatment. In the case of riflecartridges a good brass like NORMA could reload several times and I'dnormaly loose the case before having to do anything, Remington andWinchester were ok too but if I used Isralie military ammo where thecases were hardened to resist deformation in military use you'd find a lotof necks split on the first firing and had to be annealed to preventcertain neck spliting on the next firing, however no matter what I did thecases would split on about the third firing, often at the web, which asI'm sure I don't need to tell you is always good for a laugh.I'd heat the necks in a semi dark room with simmilar lighting to that of aforge until the necks were just going orange then knock them over. I'm no metalurgist so I can't say what varying amounts of tin or zinc willdo with different brasses and bronzes but it's something to experimentwith. Tony On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, irish-george wrote: Tony, Doesn't knocking them over in the water harden them rather than annealthem?I always thought that with annealing they were plunged into sand to coolvery slowly. George Bourke -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware When you form cartridges for a wildcater you often need to anneal astandard cartridge before forming the new. To do that I used to sit allthe original std cartridges in water up to the point I wanted to heattreat then hit the necks and shoulders with a gas torch to anneal andknock the case over into the water at the right time. Thewater prevents the rest of the case from annealing as well. To make the dies I used a straight line die that consists of a die made from a piece of steel like an old axle bored out to size and a strongvise that squeezed the case into the die. In the case of ferrules and reelseatparts you'd use a male die also when fressing.If you try this make sure you use case lube or you'll be reaming theferrule out of the die. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Heidt wrote: George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them frombrass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with akeywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correctshape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected.Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking intermsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a dieset? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from TChafor@wavetech.com Mon Jan 11 06:30:26 1999 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0006D868; Mon, 11 Jan 9906:11:03 -0600 Subject: TEST only Test from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Jan 11 07:51:33 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id WAA02096 for; Mon, 11Jan 1999 22:51:27 +0900 (JST) Subject: Absense To whom referenced to me, Sorry folks, I just returned from Funeral of my father who passed awayJan 9.Let me reply to your posts tomorrow as I am so tired today. I am looking forward to discussing with you again. But it seems to takea little time to read through more than hundred of posts. Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jan 11 08:20:26 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id IAA19195 for; Mon, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idIAA14931 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:20:23 Subject: Re: Prohibitive cost of bamboo from what I've read, Roderick Haig-Brown knew one end of a fly rod from another. Here is what he says in "A Primer of Fly Fishing" (1964): The choice between split cane and fiber glass is more difficult...The first fiber glass rods that appeared on the market immediatelyafter World War II certainly encouraged conservative thinking. Theywere poorly designed and poorly finished, with cheap and flimsy ferrules and reel fittings and improperly spaced guides of poorquality...All that has changed. One can now buy glass rods ofexcellent design and workmanship, well fitted and well finished inevery way. The best of them will do anything a good split-cane rodwill do, and do it really well...The bottom line is this: a good glass flyrod costs only about half as much as a cane rod of similarquality, is likely to be a shade lighter in proportion to its powerand it will stand far more abuse... Before this generation, price and practicality were the dominant considerations for most fly fishers. If someone wants to try to make a living planing cane, now is the time to do it, while significant numbersof people have disposable income, leisure time, and good retirement plans. If the economy ever turns seriously sour you won't sell many high end rods of cane or plastic. Just some more HO's.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jan 11 08:21:21 1999 irish-george@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Tony,When copper or brass heat up and are allowed to air cool they usually willharden up, to make these metals have the ability to not harden whenheatedthey must be quenched in water. Also these metals will work harden, soyousometimes have to reheat and requench in water. I use a lot of brass,copperand coin silver in making guns for trigger guards side plates thumb platesetc. and when I am workiong the metals on the anvil I sometimes have toreheatmany times to make my parts. I did an experiment one time to see whathappens when you try and work these metals when they we red hot like youwouldsteel. The result of this experiment was that the parts I tried this onliterally exploded with the hammer blows. Bret from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jan 11 11:40:08 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id LAA24439 for; Mon, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idLAA31305 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 Subject: Some things that worked Here are some things that worked out for me on my last two rods. Maybe they will be of interest to other beginners. 1. Planing better triangles. When I get lopsided triangles, usually they went wrong at the start(planing that first 60 deg angle), and were hard to correct later.My inital form was based on Wayne's book, which has a 52.5 degree side based on splitting 24 strips from a culm. Usually I don't split 24,and the angle of the split wanders all over the place. So the resultis that the strip doesn't want to sit perfectly in the inital form. My solution was to make a jig to put a 90 degree angle on the strips,then modify the above form increasing the 52.5 angle to 60. The jiglooks like this in cross section: ____A |--- | || | |----- | ||B | | C ||___| |____|OD A is an aluminum angle attached at the lower edge to wood B, opposingwood C and attached at hinge D. The jig is about 18 inched long andsits in a vise. I put the strip in the jig with the enamel against the wood C and the free edge of the angle pressing the pith side. I tightenthe jig in the vise and then plane one 90 degree edge on the strip. If you discover a lopsided triangle when planing in your final form,try this: Flip the strip so the shallow ( from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon Jan 11 11:59:41 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:59:27 -0500 Subject: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Army Training Manuals Steve,Try: http://www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Art At 10:06 PM 1/9/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote:I have lost all of my stored list messages.A while back there was a reference to a website for US Army trainingmanuals Steve from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jan 11 12:03:13 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: Morgan Mill I planed 12 strips last night from split and straightened to perfect 60degree triangles in 2hours, that was 10 minutes a strip. The plane enabled me to take off .010off of both sides,while putting a perfect 60 degree angle on each strip, with each pass.When each strip had theangle on both sides I then removed .002 off of each side with each pass. Imiced the stripsbefore heat treating and the 6 tip strips were identical and the 6 buttstrips were identical.It was pretty impressive and the Morgan plane was a whole lot faster thanwhen I did them withjust a block plane, one side at a time. from thramer@presys.com Mon Jan 11 12:03:57 1999 0000 Subject: Production Rods As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the golden ageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane 'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return. A.J.Thramer from bob.kossler@compaq.com Mon Jan 11 12:51:22 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: test - please disregard Test from trout@ricochet.net Mon Jan 11 13:08:34 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science mac-creator="4D4F5353" I have a mild objection to the term "pseudo science" as it applies tothe technical questions and ideas I've seen on this list. The modelingand testing methods I've read here seem to fit well within the bounds ofaccepted engineering and scientific methodology. I've been paid as ascientist, engineer, artist, and craftsman at different points of mylife and understand the current of antipathy that is often found betweenthe disciplines of art and science, but I feel that "pseudo science"should be a term reserved for medical quacks and new agers (I'veprobably managed to insult someone with that statement). In regards to making cheap bamboo rods, has anyone noticed how expensivegraphite rods have almost completely replaced cheap glass rods. Itcosts about the same amount in hand labor to make a nicely finishedgraphite or glass rod. The graphite blank costs a bit more for thematerials and the extra care in the manufacturing process, but that costis a small percentage of the finished price. Rod company executivesaren't dumb. No matter how well made a glass rod is, it is difficult tosell it for more than a fraction what a graphite rod is sold for. Theperceived value of graphite rods is much more than that of glass rods.You can make a much higher profit margin selling graphite rods insteadof glass. Bamboo rods have a high price point, but the cost of makingthe bamboo blank is considerably higher than that for a graphite rod. Isuspect that anyone who uses modern manufacturing methods to massproduce bamboo rods and markets them well will turn a tidy profitbecause of the high profit margin. Just as the average John Q. Publichas an inflated idea as to the value of Grandpa's old H-I flyrod (i.e.:"I hear they're worth thousands of dollars, these days"), they willbelieve that mass produced bamboo rods are valuable and be willing topay for a bamboo rod sold in the same price range as a modestly pricedgraphite rod (if it is marketed properly and well made). Also, it is possible to make glass and graphite rods at home. I've madeseveral and they weren't bad compared to the commercial product. Therehave been several one-man shops that have specialized in producing wellmade graphite and glass rods where the blanks are made on thecraftsman's mandrels and then straightened and adjusted on an individualbasis. The techniques for straightening and adjusting these rods areclosely guarded by these craftsmen (don't ask me for them, I just knowI've met people who can actually do this kind of work) and not widelyknown to the amateur craftsman. I find it much easier to fine-tune abamboo rod than do the same for a synthetic blank and have the highestregard for those who know how to produce hand-tuned synthetic fly rods.I also believe one of the problems with commercial rods (besides thelack of individual tuning/mass production aspect) is that the tapers arejust too fast. Just because the material makes it possible to producefast, tip action rods shouldn't mean that the manufacturer can't producetapers closer to a Paul H. Young or a Garrison rod. It's like when Iwas a kid in the late 50's and was trying to find a decent glass fly rod(working class families buy working class tackle); almost all the glassrods had huge butt sections and fast actions (and were marketed to thepublic as scientifically designed). Unfortunately, the engineers thatdesigned the rods obviously didn't cast or fish them. What we need aremore engineers and scientists that are part- time artists (or viseversa). Rob Nielsen from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jan 11 13:38:08 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low cost productionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jan 11 15:18:49 1999 PAA00661; Subject: Truncated Ferrules To All, Referencing Wayne's post of the other day on ferrules. I am currentlyplaning a Hardy CC ce France taper. Should I use Super Swiss or aretruncated ferrules adequate for this rod? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from seanmcs@ar.com.au Mon Jan 11 16:31:26 1999 Subject: Young Para 15 taper Dear Rodmaker: Is the taper for the Para 15 taken over varnish or is it on bare cane?Is the assumption of 006 about right for varnish if present? ThanksSean from anglport@con2.com Mon Jan 11 16:31:51 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don't knowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past) thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Jan 11 17:02:35 1999 via smap (4.1) 15:07:51 PST Subject: RE: Truncated Ferrules Steve, I know I'm not answering your question about whether to use truncated or not, but I was looking through the REC catalog and they have Super Swiss truncated ferrules for sale. If you like the Super Swiss style, you could get the truncated version and accomplish both goals. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Mon Jan 11 17:37:06 1999 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about making the rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does.Cheers.Jon McAnulty ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Author: at Internet-Mail All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who is offering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don't know what he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past) that will enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to do this) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in the first place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due to the "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproduction rod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk about a production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand. Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand? >Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we are assuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keeping them from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interested in a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly more at $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphite market. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able to offer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty. Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than a couple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material just out and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can't offer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professional that has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod being made now isn't because no one can supply them, but because there isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume of sales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from spazz@choice.net Mon Jan 11 17:37:44 1999 SAA18360 Subject: the scoop on Varathane [Fwd: 900 finish] boundary="------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF There has been some discussion of Varathane 90 versus 900...here is thescoop right from the lady at Varathane (they also go by Flecto). Ihaven't noticed much "ambering" with the 90 and I know a lot of you useit ...perhaps a shade darker... FYI, Kev --------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF MAA07876 Subject: Re: 900 finish Hi Kevin,Both are oil based product. Product 90 is a slower drying finish and itambers more. Product #900 and #90 are compatible to each other as farashardness and durability once they are cured. I hope this info. is helpful. Diane --------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 17:49:58 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:49:42 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo One thing you need to remember is if the demand increases you'll beflooded with imports to fill the "need" for cheap bamboo rods. There areabout 20 million Indonesians recently unemployed and hungry who'd killforthe opertunity to learn how to make $15 bamboo rods. Don't think thecheaper rods will be inferior either, it's been discussed long and hardhow easy it is to make the splines on a mill and all it'd take is some bigname company to market these things as "made specially in purpose buitsfactorys to the companies' highest standards" etc for the great unwashedto suddenly decide makers have been ripping everyone off all these years.The scary thing is a $15 odd dollar rod made as well as any is entirelypossible. These days X- million aires are selling individual matches onstreet corners. This isn't the 50's with a big world and high import fences any more, it'sbeen said already how cheaply you can pick up bamboo rods if all that'sstopping you is price. Price is actually proctecting the current makers.What brand shoes are you wearing? Who made the PC you're looking at thismessage on? The TV you watch, the fridge you keep the beer cold in?The 50's wont return unless some pretty nasty things happen witheconimiesand then people prob wont be flyfishing all that often. If the future of bamboo rods is mass production most wont get a look in. It could happen though, is your PC Y2K complient? Tony On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales inthefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 17:52:19 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:51:56 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art He prob has a contact in Jakarta or Bejing. Tony from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jan 11 17:55:21 1999 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingthe rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:00:49 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:41:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales inthefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl Darryl, The only way to determine what size the "production" bamboo rod marketreallyis would be to do test marketing - advertise some bamboo rods atdifferentprices and see what the price/volume ratio gives in results. I believe that there is a small percentage of the overall rod market, butstill quite large compared to any bamboo rodmaker's output, that wouldbuy adecent bamboo rod if the price was in the $250 - $350 range. Enough tojustifythe attemptmaybe. BUT! To me the real question a bamboo production rod company would need toaskthemselves would be how much competition would I face if I wassuccessful?Because if I needed to invest $100,000+ to startup my business(equipment andsupplies) plus make a quanity of rods to fill the supply chain with product;only to find that 3 or 4 others then entered the market because of mysuccess,could I live with ~25% of this small market? And would my offshore rodwrapping labor company (how else would Ireduce rodprice as easily) attempt to undercut me in my own market at a later date?Forexample, a Chinese company could get the best Tonkin bamboo and planestripsfar cheaper than a USA firm could make milled strips. My $.02, Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:01:21 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science In a message dated 1/10/99 7:20:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Scott: There's not a tremendous market for cane rods because they're toodamned> expensive for average working stiffs like me. If, as Terrysuggests, wecould find ways to make quality rods more affordable, the market wouldexpand. I think most average fly fishermen feel cane rods, and most ofwhat Orvis and some of these other pricey outfits sell, is strictly forthe well-to-do. I have a few cane rods in my arsenal because I've foundthem at yard sales and in widows' basements. Much as I would like to, Icould never justify spending $1,000-plus on a bamboo rod. My wifewoulddivorce me. So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm notterriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper andmoredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Paul, The Korean War embargo of all Chinese products including Tonkin bamboocaneculms ended bamboo rod production in this country - just before the canesupply ran out, Heddon alone was making over 100,000 bamboo rods/year.Fiberglass just happened to be the only thing around to pick up the slack.Have you ever cast an early fiberglass rod? I doubt that you would havesoldall of your cane rods to buy one. You can today buy one of AJ Thramer's single tip impregnated cane rods forunder $500, Terry A's rods (Canadian maker) aren't much more and comewith 2tips. I've seen many modern "unknown" maker rods selling on rod lists inthe$300 range too. Cane rod blanks can be had for $150 - $500 too. And since I've been to Clarks Summit and know how big the place is, ()youcan also easily look up Len Gorney (also of Clarks Summit) - he'll sell youone of his rebuilt cane rods for one heck of a lot less than $1,000. Don BurnsSanta Clarita, CA (just north of LA-LA land) PS --- While you're walking around "uptown" Clarks Summit, say hi to mycousin Bill Botke. from mevans@acxiom.com Mon Jan 11 18:02:29 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: RE: Price of Bamboo Years ago a riverfront hotel in Memphis raised the price of its penthouse from $400 to about$1500 per night to keep noisy frat parties from spoiling their 'ambiance'. Sales went throughthe roof as the wealthy suddenly valued the product. (The same folks whobuy Winston IM6rods?:-)) Maybe this $100 guy will be the Ron Popiel of cane rods ... infomercial onchannel 88 at 3 AM.But a Per Brandin suddenly being devalued by a bamboo pocket fisherman? Then again, Bill Gates made it on Windows - after Steve had already donehis job ... ----------From: Art Port [SMTP:anglport@con2.com]Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup andthere is afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) whoisoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in thepast) thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up"to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait tosee how thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo salesin thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are duetothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon Jan 11 18:28:04 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods A.J.,I certainly agree about the beveler. Another virtue of the beveler isaccess to tapers that a thick metal form can't manage. (No, folks, this isnot bait; think about it. If you want proof, I'll take measurements at 1"intervals from a beveled "production" rod, send you the 5" stations, set upa form and then we'll compare the 1" intervals.)I'm not sure about the Russian tractor analogy. Belarus made someinteresting 4WD tractors.I don't think tho' that the ol-timers would chuckle all that much aboutpeople keeping costs down and undertaking rodmaking as a hobby.Certainly,towards the end, most of the quality production houses were having a hardtime making ends meet; and the tax man cometh...Seriously, the rodmakers that hope to go into it full time today alltell me about the great pensions they will be getting before they make theleap. Will all those full-time cane rodmakers supporting a young family,without a second income, please raise your hands?Best regards,Reed "A.J.Thramer" wrote: As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the golden ageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane 'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return.A.J.Thramer from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon Jan 11 18:35:34 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Art,DO you know of any cane "rodmakers" who have no machinery, norhandtools in theirshop. I know of one, and he can sell for far below most I've seen. Some ofus thinkthere must be an Offshore (read "India") connection; quality is very high,price islow. Hmm, if the cane market was attractive enough, don't you think thatthe laborintensive rodmaking art would move to areas of cheap labor?Best regards,Reed Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art from Coclapro@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:56:49 1999 Subject: resorcinol glue would like to use resorcinol glue ,but am having trouble locating asupplier .Any suggestions? Any helpwpould be appreciated . Thanks Dave Anthony from chris@artistree.com Mon Jan 11 19:05:37 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo mac-creator="4D4F5353" My thoughts exactly. Chris Wohlford SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less"depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingtherods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It willbe interesting to see what he does. from anglport@con2.com Mon Jan 11 19:59:15 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Just found this on the newsgroups: "Following are the cheapest direct raw material prices I can find so far. Per Fly Rod Manufacturing Costs TwoPc Three Pc TONKIN CANE BAMBOO $ 3.00SUPREME QUALITY Portugal Cork $ 8.25THREADS/Brown with Yellow Trim $ 0.069-11 Guides Unknown YetNickel Silver Ferrules Unknown Yet make ourown? Reel Seat/Down Lock/Maples Unknown YetPlastic Rod Sock $ 0.10Linseed Oil Finish/Hand Rubbed $ 0.07Epoxies For Handle Area & Guide Wraps $ 0.33Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.$50.00 $75.00 (or less)" It didn't cut-and-paste real well but you can decipher it well enough tosee what Gehrke thinks he's going to lay out per rod. If he's getting cane our own vaseline)!Art from chris@artistree.com Mon Jan 11 20:05:03 1999 Subject: BASTARD BAMBOO Mfg Costs Ohhh...this is getting scary. Thought I forward this message from thatweird thread they got going on there. Chris Wohlford "Mr. G" wrote: Following are the cheapest direct raw material prices I can find so far. Per Fly Rod Manufacturing Costs TwoPc Three Pc TONKIN CANE BAMBOO $ 3.00SUPREME QUALITY Portugal Cork $ 8.25THREADS/Brown with Yellow Trim $ 0.069- 11 Guides UnknownYetNickel Silver Ferrules UnknownYet make our own?Reel Seat/Down Lock/Maples Unknown YetPlastic Rod Sock $ 0.10Linseed Oil Finish/Hand Rubbed $ 0.07Epoxies For Handle Area & Guide Wraps $ 0.33Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.$50.00 $75.00 (or less) Running Sub Total$61.81 $86.81 --Copyright by George Gehrke 1999All Rights ReservedVisit: http://www.gink.com from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Jan 11 20:30:29 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5m.R) for ; Mon, 11 Jan1999 21:30:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Hey folks: I don't believe that we need to be worried about Mr.. Gehrke. I follow theflyfishing and flytying newsgroup pretty much, and he is just a bunch ofhotair. About a year or so ago he claimed he could produce a quality fly reel given (just like what's going on there now), and nothing ever came of it. I volunteered on the newsgroup to give him the contact information forWright/MacGill's old production stuff and about 5,000 cane blanks thatRick's Rod's have in Denver, but he never responded, so he is just full ofshit. He thrives on b/s just like this and all the folks on ROFF are feeding hisego right now. just by .02 worth Joe Byrd -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 orless"depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingtherods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. Itwillbe interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Jan 11 20:43:19 1999 Subject: Fwd: Price of Bamboo boundary="part0_916108790_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_916108790_boundary --part0_916108790_boundary Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I've been to a lot of fly fishing shows and noticed that if there are two cane rod builders in the show, one is selling his rods Both rods look the same, cast the same, etc. The guy that is Selling his rods for $1,000.00 each, will sell more rods. It happens Every time. When the price is that low, the customer feels that It can't be as good as the $1,000.00 rod. Even though it IS as Good and he buys the more expensive one. I don't think people Will buy the lower priced rods if you mass produce them. I still think they will pay the higher price and get " The Better One" Dave L. --part0_916108790_boundary-- from WmFMack@aol.com Mon Jan 11 22:02:41 1999 SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years ago anddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when the ladyaskedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well they lookedatme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I get achuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'd putthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? from WmFMack@aol.com Mon Jan 11 22:39:58 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 11 23:25:22 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AD2A4620296; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:27:06 MST Subject: Re: Morgan Mill At 10:03 AM 1/11/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:I planed 12 strips last night from split and straightened to perfect 60degree triangles in 2 hours, that was 10 minutes a strip. The plane enabledme to take off .010 off of both sides, while putting a perfect 60 degreeangle on each strip, with each pass. When each strip had the angle on bothsides I then removed .002 off of each side with each pass. I miced thestrips before heat treating and the 6 tip strips were identical and the 6butt strips were identical. It was pretty impressive and the Morgan planewas a whole lot faster than when I did them with just a block plane, oneside at a time. Patrick;Please, no more gloating over us poor folk that can't afford one, I'mjealous enough as it is. John from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 11 23:31:16 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AE8D26F01E6; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:33:01 MST Subject: Leonard Rods Guys;If there are any Leonard experts out there, please contact me off list, afriend of mine brought me a 50df, 8' 3pc, that he wants me to sell for himand I need some info about it in order to get him a fair price. ThanksJohn from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 00:31:42 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:30:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I've seen the thread, too. It looks to me like a joke (he, and othersalways seem to treat it as one). George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and there is afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" todothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to see howthisplays out.Art He prob has a contact in Jakarta or Bejing. Tony from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 00:57:58 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:57:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Or better yet: more engineers who are fisherman! George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pseudo Science I also believe one of the problems with commercial rods (besides thelack of individual tuning/mass production aspect) is that the tapers arejust too fast. Just because the material makes it possible to producefast, tip action rods shouldn't mean that the manufacturer can't producetapers closer to a Paul H. Young or a Garrison rod. It's like when Iwas a kid in the late 50's and was trying to find a decent glass fly rod(working class families buy working class tackle); almost all the glassrods had huge butt sections and fast actions (and were marketed to thepublic as scientifically designed). Unfortunately, the engineers thatdesigned the rods obviously didn't cast or fish them. What we need aremore engineers and scientists that are part- time artists (or viseversa). Rob Nielsen from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 01:20:03 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:19:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. The Chinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and even increase)theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless of where itisdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain discipline tothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doubling productiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as you mightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shut downfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long before othercountries are in similar situations.) George-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:41:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: Darryl, The only way to determine what size the "production" bamboo rod marketreallyis would be to do test marketing - advertise some bamboo rods atdifferentprices and see what the price/volume ratio gives in results. I believe that there is a small percentage of the overall rod market, butstill quite large compared to any bamboo rodmaker's output, that wouldbuyadecent bamboo rod if the price was in the $250 - $350 range. Enough tojustifythe attemptmaybe. BUT! To me the real question a bamboo production rod company would need toaskthemselves would be how much competition would I face if I wassuccessful?Because if I needed to invest $100,000+ to startup my business(equipmentandsupplies) plus make a quanity of rods to fill the supply chain withproduct;only to find that 3 or 4 others then entered the market because of mysuccess,could I live with ~25% of this small market? And would my offshore rodwrapping labor company (how else would Ireducerodprice as easily) attempt to undercut me in my own market at a laterdate?Forexample, a Chinese company could get the best Tonkin bamboo and planestripsfar cheaper than a USA firm could make milled strips. My $.02, Don Burns from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 12 05:46:24 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 05:48:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I have not seen mine, I guess the mule team delivering them to Arkansashas not made it yet.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 12 06:19:38 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 06:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Good thinking Max . I found a cure for the problem, I don't use colorpreserverany more.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Masahiro Satoh wrote: Dear Paul and Tony, The effect of getting blotchy color on wraps is because of the invasionofthinned poly or thinned epoxy into threads. To my experience, it doesn'tmatter whether thread color is in lighter or darker. When a volatilethinned material gets into the fibers of wrapping thread, it makes thewraps blotchy. I was successful on some wraps and not on the others. I pseudo scienced (I decided to use this word for the fact which yet to bemade sure) the way to correct this effects. Since blotchy color happens when thinned material gets into the fibersofthread, we should consider the way which prevent it to happen. 1. To use so called thread sealer, (or called as color preserver):Flex Coat is the name of a product which is water based, sold by FlexCoat Company, Inc., P.O. Box 190,Driftwood, Texas. (this is not epoxy) This can be thinned by water and the brush used also can be cleanedout from here we have to pseudo-science the causes and the effects.Think about the gap between wrap threads and bamboo surface, thegapbetween threads, the gapamong the fibers of a thread. There mostly are foot of guidesbetweenthread layer and surface of thesection.So when applying this, we have to thoroughly apply Flex Coat so thattheFlex Coatfluid can seal the entire length and entire surface of the thread.It must get into the gap between threads and sectionsurface, into the gap between threads and into the gap among fibers ofathread, when applied after wrapis made on sections.Without this consideration, later application of epoxy or poly will getinto those gaps and finally get intothe fibers of the thread and we have blotchy color. When applying over the wraps, it is rather difficult to make sureentiregaps or surface were sealed or notsince some portions are hidden backside or in between the threadsthemselves.So, the way to be experimented is that we should apply Flex Coat onthelength of a thread beforeusing the thread on the rod section. If we apply this sealer while athread is left entire surface open to theair, we do not need to think about the hidden parts of the thread couldbe completely sealed or not.I am thinking to try this on next occasion. The recommended usage of Flex Coat says; "Apply SATURATING Coat towrrappings" 2. Weakening the bond the wraps to the rod blank This might not need to think about too much, I guess.If someone want to make sure that the guides' feets are surely bonded onrodblank, there may be another way to make it sure instead of relying it onwrapping threads. Why not bond the guides' feets on the rod surfacedirectly and after it we can wrap a thread. If the above mentionedpseudoscience is get effective, the application of epoxy on to the entirelysealedthread and into all kinds of gaps will bond the sealed thread and rodblanktogether. So, applying epoxy after sealer may work when epoxy isappliedappropriately. It should get into the gap between threads and rodsurfaceespecially to tightly bond the guides on the rod. Max P.S.When applying epoxy next to Flex Coat, epoxy also becomes the causes ofgetting blotchy color if it gets into the gaps of fibers of a thread whenFlex Coat does not thoroughly seal the entire surface of a thread. -----Original Message-----From: Paul Lyon Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:44 AMSubject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once anditdarkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point. Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps to therod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck withusingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Tony Spezio wrote: As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it asrecommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying severalthin coatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like anycomments ifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with thepolyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy whenIwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from frankc@webspan.net Tue Jan 12 06:26:15 1999 SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey B4339139419E7947232E5334" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- B4339139419E7947232E5334 WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years agoanddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when thelady askedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well theylooked atme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I getachuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'dputthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? I got 2 sets of 4.Frank --------------B4339139419E7947232E5334 begin: vcardfn: FRANKn: ;FRANKemail;internet: frankc@webspan.net end: vcard --------------B4339139419E7947232E5334-- from gaff@carol.net Tue Jan 12 06:47:01 1999 Subject: purchase bamboo hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil from harry37@epix.net Tue Jan 12 06:52:28 1999 SMTP id HAA07572; SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years agoanddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when the ladyaskedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well theylooked atme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I get achuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'd putthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? Get them? I sold a dozen of them! Greg from waverdr@bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 12 06:53:55 1999 Subject: remove Hi,I would like to be taken off this message list/board. Basically I dontwant to get 40 messages a day in me email... Is this where I need towrite to be removed? If not please tell me what I need to do, alsoplease give me you web page address. Thanks,John from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jan 12 07:01:31 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:19:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, irish- george@worldnet.att.net writes: Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. The Chinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and even increase)theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless of whereit isdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain disciplinetothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doubling productiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as youmightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shut downfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long beforeothercountries are in similar situations.) George George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look for welleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 08:20:36 1999 via NOTES ," - (052)Canerods(a)aol.com" Subject: Re: Pseudo Science I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybody canafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in my lifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes all ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all of thededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those among usthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Tue Jan 12 09:17:42 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! As I said at the start, What you do with your money is your own business,but really I thought this sought of snobbery died with the art of the "DRAYFLAY" being the only acceptable way to fish, back in the victorian age! Peter. At 08:12 12/01/99 -0600, you wrote:I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybody canafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in mylifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes all ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all ofthededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those amongusthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Jan 12 10:02:24 1999 1999 16:01:08 UT 1998)) id862566F7.00567E9D ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:44:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Thanks Peter. I would echo your comments. I too am saddened by theelitismI see around me within the fly fishing world. I'm wondering, though, canweget back to discussions on the hows, whys, and wherefores of rodmaking?Certainly we all have our individual reasons for doing what we do, hobby,career, and otherwise. It is not up to us to project our values on others,anymore than for us to judge others' values. I certainly don't think thislist is the place for it. Best regards,-Ed Estlow peter@chickerell.u-net.com on 01/12/99 09:30:05 AM Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! As I said at the start, What you do with your money is your own business,but really I thought this sought of snobbery died with the art of the "DRAYFLAY" being the only acceptable way to fish, back in the victorian age! Peter. At 08:12 12/01/99 -0600, you wrote:I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybodycanafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in mylifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grandforit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes allofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all ofthededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those amongusthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Jan 12 10:02:28 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:02:20 -0500 " - (052)rodmakers(a)mail.wustl.edu"," - (052)Canerods(a)aol.com" Subject: RE: Pseudo Science You are out of line. One of the minor, unexpected pleasures Iexperienced when I discovered fly fishing a few too-short years ago wasthe warmth with I was welcomed into the club by most of those I met whohad been fortunate enough to have grown up with the sport. Morerecently, I discovered the downside of this clubbiness, which is anarrow-minded intolerance and elitism. There are those of us who don'thave the means to boost your friends' economy. That is one reason wegot into this - for the pleasure of fishing with a live, hand-craftedtool, we must make it ourselves. Some of us may object to being called"Slack jawed yokels" merely because we share neither your disposableincome nor your unfortunately trammeled predilections. For yourinformation, bait fishing is a perfectly enjoyable and honorablepastime. And catfish are good eating. -----Original Message-----From: Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com [SMTP:Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com]Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:13 AM (052)Canerods(a)aol.comSubject: Re: Pseudo Science I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: The lastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make itaffordable forthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay agrand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makesall ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by allof thededicated rodmakers out there. Kev from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 10:02:34 1999 via NOTES Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Wow...controversy...I guess maybe I am a little snobbish about my passion ...however, Peter,I don't spend over $1000 on bamboo rods. but I will spend a few hundredona classic and scores of hours restoring it. When I achieve my goal ofcrafting split cane rods from scratch...who knows? I'd sell a rod forthecost of materials if I were absolutely sure the person would appreciatetherod properly. The expense is relatively nominal anyway. If someone makes30,000 a year ($2500 a month), $1000 is 1/5 of what is the expected costwhentheybuy and engagement ring!!!! Which is the better investment??!! Also...aboutpeople bemoaning $1000 expense...ON E-MAIL!!!!...How much was yourcomputer?$1000? $2000? Where will it be in 50 years? $1000 for a bamboo rod ischeap!If you don't think it's worth it...that's your opinion...a lot of people do.That's why we live in a day where many talented rod crafters can afford tomake their beautiful rods. I guess if Bentleys were $20,000 and everyone drove onethey would still have the same allure, no? The expense of a fine rod does not make it better, nor does it necessarilyaid the person wielding it, it may (and I stress may) reflect the timeand effort put in by a craftsman to craft or restore the rod.If you can find quality for $200..more power to you. I haven't. Oh yeah...trout don't wear socks. Kevin "Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 10:21:39 1999 via NOTES Subject: Pseudo Science..a final thought I apologize for ruffling feathers...I agree though..I want to get back todiscussions regarding crafting, I'll abandon this thread with a finalcommentand thought. First...I am not wealthy...I do not have a lot of nice things...Iwork 40 to 50 hours a week in the midwest...I am, in fact, a normalworkingstiff. Flyfishing is the one thing I will spend an inordinate amount of myincome on because it brings me so much pleasure...bamboo adds to that. If everyone was a flyfisherman...the streams would be clogged and thetroutwould be gone. We would all lose. The expense associated is a blessing tothose of us who appreciate a tranquilday on the stream by limiting the sheer numbers of participants. Again sorry for the uproar, I would no doubt love to fish with anyone onthislist, and I look forward to exchanging ideas about our craft. sincerely Kev from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Tue Jan 12 10:33:07 1999 Subject: Saturday Donuts?. Hello All,Wayne was talking about having coffee, this Saturday, for the listmembersthat will attend the fly fishing show in College Park MD. What is coffewithout donuts?. So I'd volunteered to bring donuts to the show. Anyspecial donuts requests from those who will stop by?. PLease let meknowand I will do my best to accomodate you. Thanks.Andy from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 12 10:48:14 1999 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil Wil,try the following site for more information than you thought you wouldeverneed:http://home1.gte.net/JFoster/Regards,Steve from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue Jan 12 11:09:48 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:47:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Me either....but they cashed my check so it must be in the mail. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I have not seen mine, I guess the mule team delivering them to Arkansashas not made it yet.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue Jan 12 11:09:58 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:57:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Thanks for the back up...there is the whole other issue of lifetimeunconditional warranties! Quick poll,,,how many bamboo rod makersprofessional/amateur/hobbiest offer one. Not me. I wish I could afford tofix a tip for free when Joe DumbA#% uses his rod for a wading stick. Ibelieve the reality is the market is a niche one at the very best. I wouldhave to see hard market research to believe for a second the demandexists Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my oneand only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips.Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every yearor two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Jan 12 11:12:59 1999 0600 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo Wil,In buying bamboo, our only option for years was Charles H. Demarest, Inc.You can contact Harold and Eileen Demarest at DEMARALON@aol.com. TheDemarest's are fine folks who have worked hard to keep a good supply ofcaneflowing. I highly reccomend them. I promise you won't go wrong indealingwith the scrupulously honest Demarest family.A relative newcomer to the Tonkin Cane market is Andy Royer ofBambooHardwoods. He can be contacted at andy@w-link.net Though I haven't usedanyof his cane, I have seen some and it is nice. I think Russ Gooding is sellingquantities of less than a bale for Andy. Russ can be reached through hiswebsite, http://www.goldenwitch.com/Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Steven Weiss wrote: hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil Wil,try the following site for more information than you thought you wouldeverneed:http://home1.gte.net/JFoster/Regards,Steve from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 12 11:27:56 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science..a final thought Living in New Mexico has enabled me to observe how popular flyfishinghas become every time I go to the San Juan. Certainly expense is not animportant concern for the flyfishers I see there.Many have first-rate, expensive gear. Many others have cheapo stufffromtheir waders to their rods (I do wish that they would stop using thosewovenNylon monofilament nets).IMHO, much of the explosion of interest in the sport has come as aresult of synthetics--Plastic everything that reduces the amount of skillrequired as well as the amount of care of equipment that used to berequired. We who use bamboo also love our nylon leaders, neoprene &breathable waders, poly longjohns and so on. Technology has us all by thenose (I just upgraded this computer).I use bamboo because it's gratifying to do so for many reasons,including making my own rods.Just as some people flyfish to catch more big fish faster, some peoplemake rods to make money, the more they can make quicker, the better itis.Others, like me, flyfish for the esthetics. I like tough days when Ihave to work hard for a few (large or small) fish. I like to try to learndifficult skills that require discipline, thought and perseverance.Sometimes I am a snob, but most of the time not. I do spend lots of timeguiding and teaching beginners (to pay for my rodmaking and fishingstuff),a few of whom are willing to "pay their dues" and don't want or needinstantgratification.Steve from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Jan 12 12:33:07 1999 Subject: Thinning Flexcoat I thin regular Flex Coat with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) available fromhardware stores. It's supposed to be nasty stuff from a carsinogenic pointofview, so I keep it stored out in the garage. I mix large quantities of FlexCoat, which is wasteful, but it avoids the problem of mixing unequalratios.My ratios are 1 tsp resin: 1 tsp hardener: 1/4 tsp MEK. I've heard of folksusing acetone with good results, but MEK seems to work well for me so Ihaven't tried it. When you thin like this, the drying time is increaseddramatically. I rotate for 24 hours, although 12-16 would probably do it,anddon't touch the rod for at least 3 days after that. --Rich from wgray@uidaho.edu Tue Jan 12 13:05:47 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Peter,If you want to see this in action plan a trip to Sun Valley next July. Silver creek is loaded with millionaires who just spent several grand at the SV outfitter on everything they need for a few days on the stream, following their paid guide around to show them where the fish are. They used to make me mad but anymore I just feel sorry for them. A few may genuinly like the sport but most are just out dropping $'s on another "experience" to stick in the photo album or talk up at the country club. Wilson Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:17:21 +0000 From: Peter McLeod Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over athousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Tue Jan 12 13:22:22 1999 Subject: Suppliers in/around Miami? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040 Am I right in thinking that as there has been no response that the Miami =area is a bit of a wasteland when it comes to component suppliers?Copy of MSG sent 10.1.99I will be in the Miami area and possibly Sarasota (Miami boat show and =to see some customers) in mid Feb. Are there any good shops that are =worth visiting in the area for supplies of silks, reel seats etc - =things that'll fit in a suitcase anyway! If there's any www's then let =me know and I'll chase it down that wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040 Am I right in thinking that as there has been no = suppliers?Copy ofMSG = 10.1.99I will be in the Miami area and = in = wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040-- from anglport@con2.com Tue Jan 12 13:34:00 1999 Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat I notice that we're all aware that MEK is a carcinogen but I've never seenanyone mention what I read about it a couple of years back. I only noticedbecause my father-in-law could be affected and I wanted to make sure heheard. MEK should not be used by people with a history of HEART DISEASE.Itapparently can cause coronary problems and attacks in those victims. Ifyouhave heart disease, please look into this before you use the stuff.Art At 01:32 PM 1/12/99 EST, RMargiotta@aol.com wrote:I thin regular Flex Coat with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) available fromhardware stores. It's supposed to be nasty stuff from a carsinogenicpoint ofview, so I keep it stored out in the garage. I mix large quantities of FlexCoat, which is wasteful, but it avoids the problem of mixing unequalratios.My ratios are 1 tsp resin: 1 tsp hardener: 1/4 tsp MEK. I've heard of folksusing acetone with good results, but MEK seems to work well for me so Ihaven't tried it. When you thin like this, the drying time is increaseddramatically. I rotate for 24 hours, although 12-16 would probably do it,anddon't touch the rod for at least 3 days after that. --Rich from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Tue Jan 12 13:57:57 1999 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re[4]: Price of Bamboo Bravo! In fact, your comment below was my first thought when I readof this scheme.Jon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Author: at Internet-Mail Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingthe rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm than good to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jan 12 15:16:07 1999 Subject: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This subject got my interest, so I looked at the newsgroup where all this was happening. I think I understand what Mr. Gink is doing. He is taking the costof materials and marking it up 100%. This is fine for a non laborintensive operation like my other hobby, jewelry making. In fact,this is the standard practice. I can usually make a ring or pendant in an hour or two, so a 100% markup over raw material cost is fine.Rod making on the other hand involves much more labor. For me about 40 hours. I don't have any desire to make a rod for 2 or 3 dollars an hour. And like I said before - without a good taper....... Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 16:24:53 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Max,you got that all wrong. I said that a generation ago Payne was hardly abletosupport himself by Rod making. Meaning that what many see as thegreatest rodmaker the US had ever produced could not make a living.Rod making to me is a very personal thing . It is the only part of my lifewhereI have to please no one. I build what I like in the manner that suites me.Rod making is a craft that has to be paid for in sweat, you cannot hothouseexperience. All of the fun of rod making is in the learning. Once you canbuilda rod without thinking, it becomes boring.A guy last week on the list expected someone to give him an engineeringapprenticeship via e-mail. It was too difficult for him to visit the locallibrary, easier to get a sucker to spend all night typing!There are enough books on rod building out there to get a newbie startedandhopefully he develops his own personal style.There is a lot of bad information on this list, not intentionally bad, butbadnone the less.Some of the guys do not have the patience to give a process or technique achance and give up on it before they are really familiar with it. They thentellthe list that 'it is not recommended' You have to try things out yourself.If this list was around when I got started, I would have never made a rod.Toomany alternatives! I built exactly to Garrisons book and developed fromthere. Idid not bother with the math, the tapers were there. After building a fewrods Idecided that they did not suit me and the math was wrong for what Ithought acane rod should do.I personally find all the science a joke but some guys are really into it,thisis how it should be. We should be as different as our rods(hopefully)TerryMasahiro Satoh wrote: Terry, I do not think it's any crying bloody shame for those who only made oneorten rods with enough support of others. This list is such a place and it'sa great benefit of joining. You are also a member of this list. Thinkabout why you are here. I respect the old day rod makers made considerable efforts themselvesandsome of us also would like to progress in a smilar fashion for betterrodsand the better ways of rod making by discussing, doing trial and error orwhat you call, pseudo sciencing. You must also experienced a considerable rod making efforts. I respecttheexperienced people here.I would like to know your ways of doing very much. Please be a goodteacherto us. Sincerely,Max -----Original Message-----From: Terence Ackland Cc: maxs@geocities.co.jp ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:42 AMSubject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Ed and Jim Payne made perhaps 20,000 rods between them using nomore than acraftsmans intuition.A generation ago Jim Payne could hardly support himself, yet here wehaverodmakers with perhaps 10 rods under their belts having all theanswers.It is a crying bloody shame!BambooRods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/2/99 12:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: thepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifyingpersonalpreferences. >> Terry,We should be thankful that some do think of "theorizing" as it isthebase that those of us that simply "make" rods exist. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 12 17:26:08 1999 RMargiotta@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Thinning Flexcoat Another aside of these thinners is kidney problems from prolonged use. Alsothe fumes can make you very very high.Bret from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 17:29:41 1999 Subject: Mass Market Cane Just got Cabela's 99 Fly Fishing catalog and found somethinginteresting.Though they aren't selling cane blanks anymore,they are nowselling Douglas Kulick's Kane Klassics Rods.They list 6 different rodsaround the $1000 price range with all the rods carring a lifetimewarranty.Should be interesting to see how well they are recieved in thismarket.They gave him display, including a full color photo of Douglas handplaning a rod. Charlie from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 12 17:36:45 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat MEK is good old laquer thinner but I am wondering if this can also be cutwithnaptha? As with any thinner whether it be MEK ,Xylol or even mineral spirits allarenasty things and should be treated with respect. Any rags you guys usewiththis stuff should be allowed to air dry layed out over something or storedina metal container full of water. Another thing too guys some of thesehave avery low flash point and the fumes can be ignited by your furnace kickingonor even an electrical switch being thrown ( lathe). I don't want to scareyouguys but be careful I know people who have been killed using thesethinners intheir basements BOOOOM.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 17:53:21 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods Reed,I am not really convinced that you can copy a taper from the masters andconvert it to a 5in station without there being a noticable difference intheaction.All my tapers were designed on the 5 in station and now I have built abevellerthat can use much finer increments I am not sure just what to do.To me, a rodmaker is a guy who can support himself and his family withhisrodmaking endevours, without any other financial assistance.I guess we are all just dreamers?Terry reed wrote: A.J.,I certainly agree about the beveler. Another virtue of the beveler isaccess to tapers that a thick metal form can't manage. (No, folks, this isnot bait; think about it. If you want proof, I'll take measurements at 1"intervals from a beveled "production" rod, send you the 5" stations, setupa form and then we'll compare the 1" intervals.)I'm not sure about the Russian tractor analogy. Belarus made someinteresting 4WD tractors.I don't think tho' that the ol-timers would chuckle all that much aboutpeople keeping costs down and undertaking rodmaking as a hobby.Certainly,towards the end, most of the quality production houses were having ahardtime making ends meet; and the tax man cometh...Seriously, the rodmakers that hope to go into it full time today alltell me about the great pensions they will be getting before they maketheleap. Will all those full-time cane rodmakers supporting a young family,without a second income, please raise your hands?Best regards,Reed "A.J.Thramer" wrote: As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the goldenageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return.A.J.Thramer from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 17:54:23 1999 Subject: Re: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This guy is talking production, not amateur building with a plane.With good production equipment It is possible to cut the time to afraction of 40 hrs and simplify the manufacturing process to be able toemploy semi-skilled labour.A well designed beveller using up to date technology is capable ofworking to the same limits as a planing form without the 5 inchrestriction.Working to fine limits does take time, even with a beveller. It ispossible to run,say, 3 bevellers at the same time with ease. They canwork without getting tired, not like planing.And as for a good taper, T&T sold premuim priced rods that onlyperformed so,so.I think the only way cane can really make a comeback is by seeing themon the racks in the tackle shops.T.Ackland SalarFly@aol.com wrote: This subject got my interest, so I looked at the newsgroup whereall this was happening. I think I understand what Mr. Gink is doing. He is taking the costof materials and marking it up 100%. This is fine for a non laborintensive operation like my other hobby, jewelry making. In fact,this is the standard practice. I can usually make a ring or pendantin an hour or two, so a 100% markup over raw material cost is fine.Rod making on the other hand involves much more labor. For meabout 40 hours. I don't have any desire to make a rod for 2 or 3dollars an hour. And like I said before - without a good taper....... Darryl from maxs@geocities.co.jp Tue Jan 12 17:55:08 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with SMTP id IAA19113; Wed, 13 Jan1999 08:55:00 +0900 (JST) Subject: FW: Thinning Flex Coat As I wrongly post this from unauthorized address, I am resending this. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Thinning Flex Coat Hello Paul, There might be some confusion in talking about the product for colorpreserver, Flex Coat.I repeat this again here, Flex Coat which I am referring to is the name ofaproduct sold through Flex CoatCompany, Inc., Driftwood, Texas. It is water based so you can thinn it bywater. It dries approximately in one hour, or longer if low temperatureandhigh humidity condition exists. Drying time can be accelerated withapplication of heat-blow dryer. Clean up brush with warm tap water.(fromrecommended usage) As for the epoxy I use to seal wrapps again over the color preserver, theproduct name is Crystal Coat with sub title of One-Coat Polymer RodFinish,sold by ETI Field Landing, CA, tel. 707-443-9323.This is two component epoxy, A: Resin and B: Catalyst. Epoxy Thinner isalso sold as "Epoxy Thinner" here, but with no explanation of thecontents(thinner is the product of Japan, I guess). Would you please callyourself to the above phone number to make sure what you should use asthinner? I mix A:B: thinnter,1:1:4 when applying it on the wrappings. I hope this would help. Max ------Original Message-----From: Paul Lyon Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 7:19 AMSubject: Thinning Flex Coat One and all: The other day, I saw Max mention thinning Flex Cote epoxy finish beforeapplying it to wraps. That sounds like a wonderful idea because I havefound the stuff is hard to work with, even the so-called "Lite" formula.I'm sure if Max says he does it, then it works. Anyone have an opinion?Max, can you help? I think it would help me immensely if I could thinFlex Cote before applying it (yes, it's for a graphite rod for those ofyou gasping at the thought of using it on cane). I find the stuff isthick, builds too high too quickly and I have a tough time getting it todry hard even in ideal conditions -- exactly equal measurements, mixedthoroughly, warm and dry environment, etc. I also find it starts tothicken on me before I can finish all the wraps on a rod. Please, your thoughts. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Jan 12 18:00:53 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21548 for ;Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:00:52 Subject: Fly Fishing Bargains To the List,Considering the reputation of Gehrke's products, his Gink is pretty darnedgood. The interesting thing is that you can buy a product just as good andsuspiciously similar for 3 bucks a pound in the ladies cosmeticsdepartmentof your favorite discount druggist. But like other ladies things Gink comesin an attractive package. Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 18:20:42 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Don,if a quality cane rod cannot be made here then perhaps it should not bepursued.Much of the joy of fishing cane is the tradition and heritage of where andhowthese rods were developed. I cannot see what pride of ownership there canbehaving a cane rod made in a Chinese sweat shop.All we are looking at is a quality product that perhaps more anglers canafford.Cane rods will always be expensive, they always were, but they do nothave tobe,like, $1200 from an unknown.Good, resonably priced cane rods can be built here with modern technology,notusing old technology and cheap offshore labour.Terry Terry Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/11/99 11:19:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, irish- george@worldnet.att.net writes: Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. TheChinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and evenincrease) theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless ofwhere it isdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain disciplinetothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doublingproductiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as youmightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shutdownfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long beforeothercountries are in similar situations.) George George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look forwelleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jan 12 18:21:50 1999 Subject: Re: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This guy is talking production, not amateur building with a plane.With good production equipment It is possible to cut the time to afraction of 40 hrs and simplify the manufacturing process to be able toemploy semi-skilled labour. Nope. He is talking about buying five planing forms and sitting fiveunskilled laborers down at them - with planes. Don't believe me? read the rec.outdoors.fishing.fly newsgroup. Darryl from andy@w-link.net Tue Jan 12 18:26:31 1999 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo All, If I may, the name of my company is The Bamboo Broker. I have not workedwith Bamboo Hardwoods for almost two years. Thank you. Regards, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: purchase bamboo Wil,In buying bamboo, our only option for years was Charles H. Demarest,Inc.You can contact Harold and Eileen Demarest at DEMARALON@aol.com. TheDemarest's are fine folks who have worked hard to keep a good supply ofcaneflowing. I highly reccomend them. I promise you won't go wrong indealingwith the scrupulously honest Demarest family.A relative newcomer to the Tonkin Cane market is Andy Royer ofBambooHardwoods. He can be contacted at andy@w-link.net Though I haven'tusedanyof his cane, I have seen some and it is nice. I think Russ Gooding issellingquantities of less than a bale for Andy. Russ can be reached through hiswebsite, http://www.goldenwitch.com/Hope this helps,Harry Boyd from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 18:28:04 1999 Subject: Mass Market Cane Just got Cabela's 99 Fly Fishing catalog and found somethinginteresting.Though they aren't selling cane blanks anymore,they are nowselling Douglas Kulick's Kane Klassics Rods.They list 6 different rodsaround the $1000 price range with all the rods carrying a" lifetimewarranty".Should be interesting to see how well they are recieved in thismarket.They gave him a nice display, including a full color photo ofDouglashand planing a rod.Usual disclaimers apply. Charlie from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 12 18:44:22 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo Science Wilson,I've been the paid guide,Silver Creek route( a friend bought 1200' of thestream and had guides for us every day). The guides I had were good (Iguideand teach here in the East and in Yellowstone so I can attest to the qualityof the guides out of the Silver Creek Outfitters). That said, I did better onmy own when my guide helped someone else and I could evaluate thingswithoutpreconceptions. Some of my companions fit the bill of throwing money atanexperience but one of the wealthiest had first class equipment and wasonehelluva fisherman. So some steriotypes don't always work. Just my $.02Regards,Hank W. from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 18:56:26 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Don,I found it interesting that the FABs (semiconductor fabricationfacilities) inHsin-Chu, Taiwan, import their technicians from the Phillipines; while alltheirengineers are home-grown.When you ramp up your production, give Manilla a call.Best regards,Reed Canerods@aol.com wrote: George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look forwelleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from channer@hubwest.com Tue Jan 12 19:01:00 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A0B2224016E; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:02:42 MST Subject: Re: Pseudo Science At 09:44 AM 1/12/99 -0600, Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: Thanks Peter. I would echo your comments. I too am saddened by theelitismI see around me within the fly fishing world. I'm wondering, though, canweget back to discussions on the hows, whys, and wherefores of rodmaking?Certainly we all have our individual reasons for doing what we do, hobby,career, and otherwise. It is not up to us to project our values on others,anymore than for us to judge others' values. I certainly don't think thislist is the place for it. Best regards,-Ed Estlow I'll second that, if it needs it.John from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 19:19:14 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods Terry,Then we need more dreamers. I remember when I was living in a smallhouse inNova Scotia, paying rent by remodelling it, and trying to feed the family(wife andone child) through my harp workshop. We didn't starve, but our clothescame fromFrenchie's, we could watch the road through the floor of the car, and weheated thehouse with scraps of koa, sitka spruce, and mahogany from the workshop. Ialmostthink we were happier then (we were stylishly thin, too).Best regards,ReedP.S. - I don't think a planing form can meet the curves possible with abeveler.I've seen beveler templates marked at 1/64". Terence Ackland wrote: Reed,I am not really convinced that you can copy a taper from the masters andconvert it to a 5in station without there being a noticable difference intheaction.All my tapers were designed on the 5 in station and now I have built abevellerthat can use much finer increments I am not sure just what to do.To me, a rodmaker is a guy who can support himself and his family withhisrodmaking endevours, without any other financial assistance.I guess we are all just dreamers?Terry from sshorb@ozip.net Tue Jan 12 20:27:19 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-55785U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:28:46 -0600 Subject: Bevelers There has been many references made to bevelers recently. Could someonetake the time to describe one? I think they machine a strip to a taperedtriangular shape from an equilateral one, but I would like a descriptionof the machine itself. Would it be on the order of a modified portableplaner or horizontal mill to cut the strips and a Morgan Hand Mill typeof base to hold the strips? I'm still figuring out how to includetemplates in their use. I haven't seen one anywhere on the net yet, onlymills. Tools and their use really interest me and I build as many of myown as I can.Skipps - Maybe I'm asking for classified information. from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 20:33:05 1999 Subject: Mass market rods In my last post I mistakenly said that Cabela's had gotten out of the Caneblanks,but I stand corrected.(thanks Onis) They are still selling the blanksin their rod building Section.It appears Cabela's believes in the market forcane. Charlie from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 20:43:54 1999 Subject: Re: Bevelers Skip,Keane's book may have a few crude photos. Basically, two small (1" orless diameter) circular saw blades, set to meet at a 60degree angle, arestationary in a horizontal plane. The blades move vertically, according to ametal template that is drawn along a track by the same fixture that ispulling the strip of cane -- the template moves the saws upward into themoving bamboo.The final result is a strip, almost ready to glue, done in one pass.Best regards,ReedP.S. - I'm still designing mine. A friend has one he has been building andrebuilding since the 1950's. Skip Shorb wrote: There has been many references made to bevelers recently. Couldsomeonetake the time to describe one? I think they machine a strip to a taperedtriangular shape from an equilateral one, but I would like a descriptionof the machine itself. Would it be on the order of a modified portableplaner or horizontal mill to cut the strips and a Morgan Hand Mill typeof base to hold the strips? I'm still figuring out how to includetemplates in their use. I haven't seen one anywhere on the net yet, onlymills. Tools and their use really interest me and I build as many of myown as I can.Skipps - Maybe I'm asking for classified information. from jkallo@midwest.net Tue Jan 12 21:07:46 1999 Hello all, I've two related questions that I hope you guys can give me some helpwith.I had the fortune of fishing the White River in Arkansas this weekendforthe first time, and not really sure what to expect I brought along mynewest rod-- Chris Bogart's S' Sweetheart. This was only the second timeI'dfished this rod and I continue to be amazed with it--its a really nicetaper. Unlike the spring creeks I normally fish though, I found myuselfwishing for a more powerful rod on the White. My questions are: what doyouguys (Rick, Harry) who fish the White often use for a general purpose rod?What taper does the list recommend for a 6wt. rod? I am considering theHeddon #50 President as the most likely candidate. I am looking forsomething that can lay out a good bit of line and turn over weighted scudsoften fished with a BB, as well as handle the seemingly common 18" 3.5lb'bow. Thanks all. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from tdapple@execpc.com Tue Jan 12 21:08:38 1999 Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from mrj@aa.net Tue Jan 12 21:40:38 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:40:32 -0800 Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off the timeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybe theminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you. Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from tdapple@execpc.com Tue Jan 12 22:07:03 1999 Subject: Another Q? Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off the timeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybe theminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you. Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Jan 12 23:22:13 1999 Subject: Re: Another Q? If I were you, I would get my butt to the Somerset, NJ FF show on 1/30 &1/31 and take Wayne Cattanach's special two day bamboo rod buildingclass.That is if all 15 slots are not full yet. I think the $100 tuition is asteal. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Timothy Apple wrote: Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off thetimeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybetheminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you.Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help youdois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:17 PM Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from stpete@netten.net Tue Jan 12 23:48:46 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA17654; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:48:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Joe, I wish I could answer your question with authority. All I can say isthat I am beginning to believe that the 4 wt rods are for my midgingdays. Of the rods I own, I usually use an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker 5 wt.but to be honest, I think the 8-1/2' Heddon 6 wt I own makes a moreutilitarian rod for the White. My next rod is a Para-15, which I've been meaning to make for a longwhile, but I'm going to start making more 7-1/2' to 8 foot 5 and 6 wts.I think these are an ideal size if you want to stay on the River all dayand run the gamut from Wooly Buggers to Elkhair Caddis and Sulphur Duns.I can't speak to you about taper types. I'm beginning to like para'smore and more. But if you are going to use split shot and Sowbugs,there is an argument for a strong, fast taper for line mending and shortline nymphing. (Also for dredging the big holes for the monsters) I'veeven been contemplating trying one of Dickerson's Guide rods or Boatrods for the days when I know I will be casting heavy flies hard allday. Hell, for the most part, I just love casting the rods and fish seem toget involved every so often. That's the beauty of making your own rods- we can keep trying till we get it right (in our lifetime?). Rick from maxs@geocities.co.jp Wed Jan 13 06:47:13 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id VAA16402; Wed, 13 Jan1999 21:45:54 +0900 (JST) rodmakers listserv Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Terry, Thanks for explanation.I might have misunderstood about yourself like about your sentences. I appologize it.When you take a little additional time in responsing to the post, yourpost becomes morehelpful and friendly, IMHO. Though the thoughts or way of doingdiffers from others, there must be a point which is shared with. This list and fly fishing. Best Regards, Max Terence Ackland wrote: Max,you got that all wrong. I said that a generation ago Payne was hardly abletosupport himself by Rod making. Meaning that what many see as thegreatest rodmaker the US had ever produced could not make a living.Rod making to me is a very personal thing . It is the only part of my lifewhereI have to please no one. I build what I like in the manner that suites me.Rod making is a craft that has to be paid for in sweat, you cannot hothouseexperience. All of the fun of rod making is in the learning. Once you canbuilda rod without thinking, it becomes boring.A guy last week on the list expected someone to give him an engineeringapprenticeship via e-mail. It was too difficult for him to visit the locallibrary, easier to get a sucker to spend all night typing!There are enough books on rod building out there to get a newbie startedandhopefully he develops his own personal style.There is a lot of bad information on this list, not intentionally bad, butbadnone the less.Some of the guys do not have the patience to give a process or techniqueachance and give up on it before they are really familiar with it. Theythen tellthe list that 'it is not recommended' You have to try things out yourself.If this list was around when I got started, I would have never made a rod.Toomany alternatives! I built exactly to Garrisons book and developed fromthere. Idid not bother with the math, the tapers were there. After building a fewrods Idecided that they did not suit me and the math was wrong for what Ithought acane rod should do.I personally find all the science a joke but some guys are really into it,thisis how it should be. We should be as different as our rods(hopefully)TerryMasahiro Satoh wrote: Terry, I do not think it's any crying bloody shame for those who only made oneorten rods with enough support of others. This list is such a place andit'sa great benefit of joining. You are also a member of this list. Thinkabout why you are here. I respect the old day rod makers made considerable efforts themselvesandsome of us also would like to progress in a smilar fashion for betterrodsand the better ways of rod making by discussing, doing trial and errororwhat you call, pseudo sciencing. You must also experienced a considerable rod making efforts. I respecttheexperienced people here.I would like to know your ways of doing very much. Please be a goodteacherto us. Sincerely,Max -----Original Message-----From: Terence Ackland Cc: maxs@geocities.co.jp ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:42 AMSubject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Ed and Jim Payne made perhaps 20,000 rods between them using nomore than acraftsmans intuition.A generation ago Jim Payne could hardly support himself, yet here wehaverodmakers with perhaps 10 rods under their belts having all theanswers.It is a crying bloody shame!BambooRods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/2/99 12:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: thepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifyingpersonalpreferences. >> Terry,We should be thankful that some do think of "theorizing" as it isthebase that those of us that simply "make" rods exist. -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Wed Jan 13 08:21:50 1999 via NOTES " - (052)owner-rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu"," - (052)rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat good point...my friend up North just had his garage/workshop go up becauseofignited mineral spirits fumes...fortunately he and his fishing equipmentwerespared....the old Ford truck didn't make it. Kev from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Jan 13 09:13:05 1999 KAA200726;Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:12:47 -0500 " - (052)Grhghlndr(a)aol.com" " - (052)owner-rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu"," - (052)rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat =_NextPart_000_01BE3EDD.3DF95EC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3EDD.3DF95EC0 Well, speaking of dangerous fire hazards, among the very worst is acombination of mineral spirits and any kind of linseed oil product on a rag (or papertowel). These rags, if left bunched up in any way, generate their own heatand will soon combust--as I learned the hard way a few years back when Inearly lost my shop. Now, I always spread each rag or towel out flat, and drape them oversomething that allows air to circulate through freely--OUT OF DOORS, ofcourse. Better, still, is to submerge such rags immediately into a bucketof water for later disposal. Above all, don't get lazy about thecombination of mineral spirits and linseed oil. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Cc: - (052)RMargiotta(a)aol.com ; - (052)owner- rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu; - (052)rodmakers(a)wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Thinning FlexcoatDate: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:14 AM good point...my friend up North just had his garage/workshop go upbecause ofignited mineral spirits fumes...fortunately he and his fishing equipmentwerespared....the old Ford truck didn't make it. Kev------=_NextPart_000_01BE3EDD.3DF95EC0 Well, speaking of dangerous= =spirits and any kind of linseed oil product on a rag (or paper towel). = and will soon combust--as I learned the hard way a few years back when I= combination of mineral spirits and linseed oil.Cheers, = rodmakers(a)wu= point...my friend up North just had his garage/workshop go up because = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3EDD.3DF95EC0-- from saltwein@swbell.net Wed Jan 13 12:20:35 1999 MAA20665; Subject: Rods on the Wall Hello All, I am on vacation this week and have just been hanging out around thehouse doing some tying and planing. A little reading and generalrecuperation from the daily grind. I have two rods on the wall in my den. They have been there for fiveyears, I fished the Granger a couple of times and then hung it up. I gotthem down today. I was going to mic' them for my archive. Being a littlemore observant since building, I discovered the Granger Special has atip 2" short. The other rod, which I thought was a Granger also ( Theywere both purchased in aluminum Granger rod tubes), is now a mystery tome. I thought I might describe it and post the taper and see if anyone hasany ideas. There are no markings on the rod. It is a 8'-6", 3pc. with a full wells grip and a black bakelite andaluminum down locking reel seat that has a black bakelite lock ring. Thewraps are translucent red and the guides are black. The ferrules arepinned step down with a sharp break at the step. It has a ring type hookkeeper secured with red wraps with a half dozen black wraps in thecenter. The nodes are a random stagger and the rod is a rich caramelbrown. I would estimate .006 for varnish, which I deducted. Point Dimension1 .0905 .10510 .12315 .13320 .14625 .16330 .19835 .206 (extrapolated)40 .22145 .23050 .24055 .25460 .26165 .27370 .297 (extrapolated)75 .31280 .32685 .33790 .36192 .422 Any and all comments welcomed! What size of line would it take to flexthis monster? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Wed Jan 13 12:41:09 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level310) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:39:41 EST Subject: Does anyone know Davey Riggs addr? Tx, Bob Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from jkallo@midwest.net Wed Jan 13 13:16:39 1999 Subject: 6wt. rod I wasn't too surprised that I received several suggestions that I ought toconsider Wayne's "The Force" for my White R. rod. I had actually given thissome serious thought myself. I guess the Shenendoah Sweetheart issomethingapproaching a para. and I must say I am really impressed with the way itcasts. After fishing with it all morning I picked up my friends plastic 5wtand I nearly couldn't cast it--it felt like the line was being heaved bythe last 6 inches of the rod. I think I'd like the parabolic action of the"Force", but I was hoping to find something approaching 9ft. Has anyonemade this rod a foot longer? Do you think that using Hexrod to modify thetaper would yield a rod with the same action? Wayne have you ever made alonger version of this rod for anyone? Thanks again guys. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 13 13:42:23 1999 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod In a message dated 1/13/99 11:18:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,jkallo@midwest.net writes: I think I'd like the parabolic action of the"Force", but I was hoping to find something approaching 9ft. It's been my experience, and it could be because thatexperience comes from casting older 9 footers, thatan ordinary caster (not Lefty Kreh, Steve Rajeff, etc)casts better and in most cases father when he wants to,with an 8 foot cane rod rather than a 9 foot cane rod. If you absolutely have to have a rod longer than 8 feet, the longest I would go with is 8' 6". Of course this is one handed ordinary rods, not two handedsalmon or Spey rods. Darryl from jkallo@midwest.net Wed Jan 13 14:32:14 1999 Subject: 6wt. rod It's been my experience, and it could be because thatexperience comes from casting older 9 footers, thatan ordinary caster (not Lefty Kreh, Steve Rajeff, etc)casts better and in most cases father when he wants to,with an 8 foot cane rod rather than a 9 foot cane rod. If you absolutely have to have a rod longer than 8 feet, the longest I would go with is 8' 6". My very limited experience with longer cane rods (I got a couple of olderrods for christmas) supports your claim Darryl--both these 9.5 ft rodsfeelpretty unweildy. The problem I am trying to solve is not so much the need fishing on the White is done in really broken up water--for those familiarI am thinking of Rim Shoals. The fish hold in these shelf drop-offs rightin the middle of really long choppy runs. Fishing with a 7ft. rod reallygives you a work out. Actually, it gives *me* a work out; this could besimply a problem of me not having figured out how to fish this water. I doknow that my fishing partner was fishing that 5wt plastic rod out atabout40ft. and at that sort of distance I had a really difficult time gettinganything resembeling a good drift. I also know that the last fish hebrought it looked like it would have really given my stick a run for themoney in that fast water; it would've had to be pretty whooped before Icould have taken it. Maybe a 6wt 81/2 rod would do it though. Any thoughtsabout the idea are appreciated. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from Nodewrrior@aol.com Wed Jan 13 14:32:54 1999 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Dear Joe,I stretched The Force to an 8'6" using the online hexrod. Turned out great.The nature of the parabolic having less material in the butt saves alot ofweight in a longer rod. Rob Hoffhines from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 16:04:08 1999 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Darryl,I am forced to differ. I haven't fished a rod under 9' withregularity in at least 8 years. Last year I fished most of the seasonwith a 10' 6wt and could cast easily all day long. Mending line is mucheasier with the longer rods, pickup is easier, false-casting is reduced,etc. [The last is the nature of the taper, not the length, but I had tothrow it in.]I'm not the incredible Bulk, I stand only 5'8" and spend most of mydays doing nothing more strenuous than pressing keys. Of course, asfishing season nears, I convince myself that THIS YEAR I'm going tospend a month getting my casting in form before approaching the water. Inever do. Sure, I ache a bit the first few days of the season, but nomore than if I used a shorter rod.Once you get that line in the air, the weight of the flyrod is notwhat will tire you. Use a 6' rod and you'll need to be throwing yourshoulder in (or out) every cast; I'll bet your arm weighs more than my10' rod! essay on "The Long Rod".Best regards,Reed SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/13/99 11:18:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,jkallo@midwest.net writes: I think I'd like the parabolic action of the"Force", but I was hoping to find something approaching 9ft. It's been my experience, and it could be because thatexperience comes from casting older 9 footers, thatan ordinary caster (not Lefty Kreh, Steve Rajeff, etc)casts better and in most cases father when he wants to,with an 8 foot cane rod rather than a 9 foot cane rod. If youabsolutely have to have a rod longer than 8 feet, the longestI would go with is 8' 6". Of course this is one handed ordinary rods, not two handedsalmon or Spey rods. Darryl from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 16:12:05 1999 Subject: Silicon Snakes What a frightening subject header! It sounds like I'm describingCalifornia Lawyers. My question to the list is:Has anyone made snakes from Silicon Bronze wire? I used to usespring-tempered Silicon Bronze wire in various diameters for harpstrings (of real red sally harps). It had a nice color, excellentstrength, rust-resistant ... will it work for snakes?I have a new Snake Maker from Dave LeClair, its slicker than deerguts on a pump handle! [Unusual disclaimer - he did a darn good job inproducing something so simple, but so elegant.] I'm going to snakemake'til the sun comes up.Best regards,Reed from paullyon@epix.net Wed Jan 13 16:24:03 1999 ESMTP id RAA13750; Subject: Re: Absense mac-creator="4D4F5353" Max: My deepest sympathies. Paul Lyon Max Satoh wrote: To whom referenced to me, Sorry folks, I just returned from Funeral of my father who passed awayJan 9.Let me reply to your posts tomorrow as I am so tired today. I am looking forward to discussing with you again. But it seems to takea little time to read through more than hundred of posts. Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Wed Jan 13 16:47:08 1999 1999 22:45:48 UT 1998)) id862566F8.007A2905 ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:14:18 -0600 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Where might one get a copy of the article, "The Long Rod?"-Ed rcurry@top.monad.net on 01/13/99 04:12:25 PM Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Darryl,I am forced to differ. I haven't fished a rod under 9' withregularity in at least 8 years. Last year I fished most of the seasonwith a 10' 6wt and could cast easily all day long. Mending line is mucheasier with the longer rods, pickup is easier, false-casting is reduced,etc. [The last is the nature of the taper, not the length, but I had tothrow it in.] SNIP essay on "The Long Rod".Best regards,Reed SNIP from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Wed Jan 13 16:49:09 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA1F10;Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:48:38 +0100 Subject: Re: Fly Fishing Bargains Bill Fink wrote: To the List,Considering the reputation of Gehrke's products, his Gink is prettydarnedgood. The interesting thing is that you can buy a product just as good andsuspiciously similar for 3 bucks a pound in the ladies cosmeticsdepartmentof your favorite discount druggist. But like other ladies things Ginkcomesin an attractive package. Bill What's the stuff in the cosmetics shop called, Bill? Rens Oosthoek from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jan 13 17:28:51 1999 Subject: Silicon Bronze guides In a message dated 1/13/99 10:14:49 PM, you wrote: Reed - I suspect it will work and look elegant, but not last nearly as longassteel. Wear resistance is primarily related to hardness. The bronze alloysIam familiar with don't even make it to the Rockwell C hardness scale,whichstarts at 20. I suspect the old style steel wire guides were somewhere intheC 50's, and they would wear eventually. With regard to the long rod business, you should tell all the nice peoplethatyou are a throwback to an earlier age and fish with wet fly tapers, whicharelighter in the butt and not nearly so heavy as the type of tapers that wetight loop freaks cast today. A long, stiff rod will be an arm buster andDarryl's advice is a word to the wise. I can hear you chuckle now, but I ambeginning to see some possibilities in your methods. What got me startedwascasting the 9 1/2 foot 8 weight Pezon & Michel salmon rod that I think youhave seen. This rod will not throw a really tight loop, but has just enoughbutt to lay out a fairly long line, and the ability to lift and mend a lot ofline also. It is much more comfortable to use than some of the stiffersalmonrods I have cast, that are modeled on dry fly type tapers. It is fair to callit a fishing tool, rather than a casting tool. George Barnes had a similarrodat the Catskills gathering, based on a F.E. Thomas taper. Who knows?MaybeI'll end up being your fellow throwback. from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 17:30:06 1999 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Ed,I believe I first read it in an old magazine, but here are two othersources:"Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect" by Leonard Wright [Dutton,1972]chapter titled "Sensible Tackle""Fly-Fishing Heresies" by Leonard Wright, Jr. [Winchester, 1975]chapter titled "Long Live the Long Rod"BTW - Both of these are worthwile books, IMHO.Best regards,Reed Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: Where might one get a copy of the article, "The Long Rod?"-Ed rcurry@top.monad.net on 01/13/99 04:12:25 PM cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Darryl,I am forced to differ. I haven't fished a rod under 9' withregularity in at least 8 years. Last year I fished most of the seasonwith a 10' 6wt and could cast easily all day long. Mending line is mucheasier with the longer rods, pickup is easier, false-casting is reduced,etc. [The last is the nature of the taper, not the length, but I had tothrow it in.] SNIP essay on "The Long Rod".Best regards,Reed SNIP from cbbghl@tthsc3.lubb.ttuhsc.edu Wed Jan 13 17:30:09 1999 Subject: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods With the new spirit of tolerance that has developed on the list over thepast few days, I feel that I can ask my question without being consideredaslack jawed yokel (just kidding). Does anyone know where specifications for bamboo bait casting andspinningrods might be found? Orvis offered a fairly broad selection of these rodsyears ago. Does anyone make them now? from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 17:37:59 1999 Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Tom,Thanks for the snake counsel. Oh, well, it would have been sexy.As for the long rod, I just read Ritz "A Flyfisher's Life". The rodbreakthrough he describes with LF/LL (Long Flex/Long Lift) and says canbeproduced only in glass is basically the delightful old, slow action, bass-bugging,wet-fly flingin' rod.I was doing an article for BFR on "Wet fly - the forgotten taper", but themagazine has apparently gone South.BTW - Can I get some more casting lessons? Will you be at Grayling?Best regards,Reed TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/13/99 10:14:49 PM, you wrote: Reed - I suspect it will work and look elegant, but not last nearly as longassteel. Wear resistance is primarily related to hardness. The bronzealloys Iam familiar with don't even make it to the Rockwell C hardness scale,whichstarts at 20. I suspect the old style steel wire guides were somewherein theC 50's, and they would wear eventually.With regard to the long rod business, you should tell all the nice peoplethatyou are a throwback to an earlier age and fish with wet fly tapers, whicharelighter in the butt and not nearly so heavy as the type of tapers that wetight loop freaks cast today. A long, stiff rod will be an arm buster andDarryl's advice is a word to the wise. I can hear you chuckle now, but Iambeginning to see some possibilities in your methods. What got me startedwascasting the 9 1/2 foot 8 weight Pezon & Michel salmon rod that I thinkyouhave seen. This rod will not throw a really tight loop, but has justenoughbutt to lay out a fairly long line, and the ability to lift and mend a lot ofline also. It is much more comfortable to use than some of the stiffersalmonrods I have cast, that are modeled on dry fly type tapers. It is fair to callit a fishing tool, rather than a casting tool. George Barnes had a similarrodat the Catskills gathering, based on a F.E. Thomas taper. Who knows?MaybeI'll end up being your fellow throwback. from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 13 18:05:11 1999 Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Reed,I was just about to say I think your long rods are probablya slow "wet fly" taper, but I see Tom beat me to it. The magazine hasn't gone south yet, but I wouldn't holdmy breath for the next issue. It will be out, but when isanybody's guess. Darryl from mrj@aa.net Wed Jan 13 18:43:04 1999 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:42:55 -0800 Subject: RE: Another Q? If you are thinking of buying a blank than you don't need to even thinkabout buying a graphite blank as at this point the finishing will be reallysimilar to a bamboo rod anyway so you might as well USE the bambooblank.Did that make ANY sense? When I was talking about getting someone totellyou or show you how to build a rod I was talking about the building andplaning which can be really confusing for a new person to the art. If youbuy a blank it might even have a finish on it so you might not have to evenworry about that, if you go that route. There is a lot about finishing and Iam not going to get into it much here. It took me quite a few rods to get adecent finish on my rods. I have painted on thick varnish, thin varnish,dipped the rod, used spar and polyurethane. I did now but there is a lot ofsetup to this to do it right. Right now I will stick by my answers and letother people answer the questions on the finer points. Actually if youdecide to build from scratch, it will be a while before you have to worryabout a finish and by then a lot of the finer points will probably havesoaked in to your head and not need as much explaining. -----Original Message----- Subject: Another Q? Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off the timeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybe theminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you. Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from mrj@aa.net Wed Jan 13 18:43:17 1999 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:42:58 -0800 Subject: RE: Another Q? If you can do this for $100.00, that will be the best $100.00 you everspenton the hobby! Go for it if you can -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Another Q? If I were you, I would get my butt to the Somerset, NJ FF show on 1/30 &1/31 and take Wayne Cattanach's special two day bamboo rod buildingclass.That is if all 15 slots are not full yet. I think the $100 tuition is asteal. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Timothy Apple wrote: Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top,handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off thetimeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybetheminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson.Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you.Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much aboutactually> building the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it willhelp you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:17 PM Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from RMargiotta@aol.com Wed Jan 13 18:50:42 1999 Subject: Re: Fly Fishing Bargains I think it's called Albolene or something like that. Many folks have said itis extremely similar or exactly the same as Gink, but I haven't bought anyyet. One small conatiner of Gink lasts me a season anyway. --Rich from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Jan 13 19:32:40 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods I have a bamboo spinning rod that Bernard Hills built for my brother yearsagoif you would like the taper off of it.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 13 19:51:52 1999 Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Reed,silicon bronze is a very strong material, I purchased some bar stock manyyears ago to make ferrules with. I found it too difficult to drill andream. It should be really great for guides, it work hardens fast and Ishould imagine you can chemically colour them.Wear resistance has nothing to do with hardness, most machinery bearingsare made of bronze. I have thought of phosphor bronze which can be heattreated as per spring steel.Terry reed wrote: What a frightening subject header! It sounds like I'm describingCalifornia Lawyers. My question to the list is:Has anyone made snakes from Silicon Bronze wire? I used to usespring-tempered Silicon Bronze wire in various diameters for harpstrings (of real red sally harps). It had a nice color, excellentstrength, rust-resistant ... will it work for snakes?I have a new Snake Maker from Dave LeClair, its slicker than deerguts on a pump handle! [Unusual disclaimer - he did a darn good job inproducing something so simple, but so elegant.] I'm going to snakemake'til the sun comes up.Best regards,Reed from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 13 19:57:55 1999 Subject: Re: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) Well, that is amazing. I wonder if he has thought of getting a few Beavers,just for the roughing?I guess he was trying to wind the guys on the list up. I just hate peoplelikethat.Terry SalarFly@aol.com wrote: This guy is talking production, not amateur building with a plane.With good production equipment It is possible to cut the time to afraction of 40 hrs and simplify the manufacturing process to be abletoemploy semi-skilled labour. Nope. He is talking about buying five planing forms and sitting fiveunskilled laborers down at them - with planes. Don't believe me? read the rec.outdoors.fishing.fly newsgroup. Darryl from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 20:27:59 1999 Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Terry,Thanks, so all hope is not lost; I'll make a few for a 7' 4/2 valise rodI'm restoring.Best regards,Reed Terence Ackland wrote: Reed,silicon bronze is a very strong material, I purchased some bar stockmanyyears ago to make ferrules with. I found it too difficult to drill andream. It should be really great for guides, it work hardens fast and Ishould imagine you can chemically colour them.Wear resistance has nothing to do with hardness, most machinerybearingsare made of bronze. I have thought of phosphor bronze which can be heattreated as per spring steel.Terry reed wrote: What a frightening subject header! It sounds like I'm describingCalifornia Lawyers. My question to the list is:Has anyone made snakes from Silicon Bronze wire? I used to usespring-tempered Silicon Bronze wire in various diameters for harpstrings (of real red sally harps). It had a nice color, excellentstrength, rust-resistant ... will it work for snakes?I have a new Snake Maker from Dave LeClair, its slicker than deerguts on a pump handle! [Unusual disclaimer - he did a darn good job inproducing something so simple, but so elegant.] I'm going to snakemake'til the sun comes up.Best regards,Reed from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 20:31:21 1999 Subject: Re: Fly Fishing Bargains Rich,It's Albolene, and I have a tub of it. Besides keeping my hands nice andsoft, its great for putting on silk lines before putting them to bed for thewinter.Gink is slightly better consistency for working with on the stream. Bothfloat a fly, tho.Best regards,Reed RMargiotta@aol.com wrote: I think it's called Albolene or something like that. Many folks have saiditis extremely similar or exactly the same as Gink, but I haven't boughtanyyet. One small conatiner of Gink lasts me a season anyway. --Rich from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Jan 13 20:47:14 1999 Subject: Saturday Plan 1/16/99) Let'sstart at 1:30 or so. I am normally tucked away in the corner classroom inthebasement( apparently the mushroom effect) - down the stairs and to theright -there should be a sign. There was mention of doughtnuts earlier but withthisbeing afternoon - perhaps pizza - hey it's a college town that shouldn't behard - I will have access to a coffee pot and will bring some grounds. Thethought is that this would give listmembers or any other interested in rodmaking to meet and chat. A couple members of the list will be there buthopefully making some sales upstairs - perhaps they can sneak down for aquick'Hi' and a slice. from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jan 13 20:51:18 1999 rcurry@top.monad.net Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes In a message dated 1/14/99 1:54:39 AM, hexagon@odyssee.net wrote: Yes, Terry, but try running them without oil and see how long they last. from rcurry@top.monad.net Wed Jan 13 20:54:48 1999 Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Am I okay if I use oiled silk? TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/14/99 1:54:39 AM, hexagon@odyssee.net wrote: are made of bronze. >> Yes, Terry, but try running them without oil and see how long they last. from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jan 13 21:04:47 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Reed -speaking of silk - I have a real find for you - an automatic H -I witha level (#4 Ithink) - I figured you could pick it up and use it at Grayrock from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jan 13 21:09:47 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes In a message dated 1/14/99 2:59:00 AM, rcurry@top.monad.net wrote: Yes, but anything other than fish oil will really put them down. from saweiss@flash.net Wed Jan 13 21:53:22 1999 Subject: Re: -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Joe, I wish I could answer your question with authority. All I can say isthat I am beginning to believe that the 4 wt rods are for my midgingdays. Of the rods I own, I usually use an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker 5 wt.but to be honest, I think the 8-1/2' Heddon 6 wt I own makes a moreutilitarian rod for the White. My next rod is a Para-15, which I've been meaning to make for a longwhile, but I'm going to start making more 7-1/2' to 8 foot 5 and 6 wts.I think these are an ideal size if you want to stay on the River all dayand run the gamut from Wooly Buggers to Elkhair Caddis and Sulphur Duns.I can't speak to you about taper types. I'm beginning to like para'smore and more. But if you are going to use split shot and Sowbugs,there is an argument for a strong, fast taper for line mending and shortline nymphing. (Also for dredging the big holes for the monsters) I'veeven been contemplating trying one of Dickerson's Guide rods or Boatrods for the days when I know I will be casting heavy flies hard allday. Hell, for the most part, I just love casting the rods and fish seem toget involved every so often. That's the beauty of making your own rods- we can keep trying till we get it right (in our lifetime?). Rick Rick,Those last two sentences sum it up. I may have to quote you .Steve from saweiss@flash.net Wed Jan 13 21:58:29 1999 Subject: Re: 6wt. rod Dear Joe,I stretched The Force to an 8'6" using the online hexrod. Turned out great.The nature of the parabolic having less material in the butt saves alot ofweight in a longer rod. Rob Hoffhines Rob,How did you use Hexrod to stretch the 8' Force?Steve from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 13 22:29:18 1999 ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Silicon Snakes Yeah, but in a few hours you will be swimming in snake guides. I have oneto. Sure wish I could put the rest of the rod together as fast. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com I have a new Snake Maker from Dave LeClair, its slicker than deerguts on a pump handle! [Unusual disclaimer - he did a darn good job inproducing something so simple, but so elegant.] I'm going to snakemake'til the sun comes up.Best regards,Reed from srosenc@together.net Wed Jan 13 22:57:27 1999 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:57:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods Gwynne Little wrote: With the new spirit of tolerance that has developed on the list over thepast few days, I feel that I can ask my question without being consideredaslack jawed yokel (just kidding). Does anyone know where specifications for bamboo bait casting andspinningrods might be found? Orvis offered a fairly broad selection of theserodsyears ago. Does anyone make them now? I have access to specifications and tapers for Orvis bamboo rods ( bait, spinning and fly rods) Contact me off list with what you are interested in and I will get you the specifications. Steve from jczimny@dol.net Wed Jan 13 23:11:50 1999 Subject: Re: Fly Fishing Bargains I heard he boils the Abolene down so that it is thicker.John reed wrote: Rich,It's Albolene, and I have a tub of it. Besides keeping my hands nice andsoft, its great for putting on silk lines before putting them to bed forthewinter.Gink is slightly better consistency for working with on the stream.Bothfloat a fly, tho.Best regards,Reed RMargiotta@aol.com wrote: I think it's called Albolene or something like that. Many folks have saiditis extremely similar or exactly the same as Gink, but I haven't boughtanyyet. One small conatiner of Gink lasts me a season anyway. --Rich from sjstill@iquest.net Wed Jan 13 23:35:15 1999 0000 (209.43.53.127) Subject: Some stuff for sale Hi All, This is a non-commercial post. Someone can profit from my mistake. I have the following for sale;4 @ 6' pcs of bamboo1 @ George Barnes made Quad planing form, brand new, never used2 @ Stanley 91/2 planes, both older models. 1 has a Hock blade1 Dunlap block plane, larger than the 9 1/2, good for roughing1 aluminum Garrison type binder with thread1 Mitoyo dial indicator with base, cal. bar and 2 @ 60* pointsAss't of old (H-I?) snake guides, very nice shape, probably well over 100pcs.Ass't of about 75 chrome stripper guides1 copy of Wayne's book1 copy of Garrison (newer ed.)1 copy Best of Planing Form1 6" Cen-Tech dial caliper2 @ roller type sharpening jigs All I can think of off the top of my head. E-mail me at Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 14 00:33:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:33:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Mass Market Cane You got the "wrong" Cabala's '99 catalog...the bamboo rod blanks (Sharpe'sand Partridge) are in the '99 Cabala's Tacklecraft catalog (page 8). George Bourke BTW--Now I need to find out why I didn't get the '99 Cabala's Flyfishingcatalog!-----Original Message----- Subject: Mass Market Cane Just got Cabela's 99 Fly Fishing catalog and found somethinginteresting.Though they aren't selling cane blanks anymore,they are nowselling Douglas Kulick's Kane Klassics Rods.They list 6 different rodsaround the $1000 price range with all the rods carrying a" lifetimewarranty".Should be interesting to see how well they are recieved in thismarket.They gave him a nice display, including a full color photo ofDouglashand planing a rod.Usual disclaimers apply. Charlie from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Jan 14 02:33:18 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id VAA26873; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:32:53 +1300 Subject: Re: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods Gwyne, I have a Sharpes spinning rod which I will mic and send to you . Ratherbusyat the moment so it may be a few days . Just a general comment on spinning rods which I picked up in an oldEnglishbook on spinning rods a few years ago which I have found to be verycorrect.( I need to confess to the list that I still use a graphite spinning rod fortrout in larger rivers , fishing upstream like a nympth with a very smallbladed spinner pulled down with the current !!) However the old comment related to the type of taper on spinning rodsneeding to match the reel . It suggested that if using a fixed spool reelwhere more of a flick action is used in casting then a fast tip action rodis needed to give the full thrust to the lure and provide a sudden drive topull the line off the fixed spool . The spinning equivalent to a narrow loopdry fly rod . By comparision if using a revolving drum bait casting reelthen a more gradual loading of the lure was better and a tip action rodwould make casting more difficult. This would suggest that a taper morealong the lines of a parabolic with a more gradual loading of the rod ismore correct for this type of reel where the spool needs to pick up speedina controlled manner .I certainly have found this suggestion to be verycorrect for larger rods used for salmon and beach fishing as well as trout. I would suggest that if you do get a variety of tapers and are unsure whichto use it may help to considering matching the taper to the type of reelyouintend to use as well as the weight. Just a casual observation to show us sometimes "chuck and hope" spinfishermen are more analytical then sometimes appreciated . Iank At 05:28 PM 13/01/99 -0600, Gwynne Little wrote:With the new spirit of tolerance that has developed on the list over thepast few days, I feel that I can ask my question without being consideredaslack jawed yokel (just kidding). Does anyone know where specifications for bamboo bait casting andspinningrods might be found? Orvis offered a fairly broad selection of these rodsyears ago. Does anyone make them now? from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Thu Jan 14 03:50:44 1999 (MET) Subject: Cane Rods for ca. $300 Dear Friends Here in the german speaking part of Europe we have since years arodmaker named Michael Huelsenbeck, think one of the wellknowest in ourregion.Many years ago i ordered a split cane rod for testing an looking hiscraft, 6 ft #3 3-piece, the price was DM 350.-.The blank is blond, varnished, very straight, ferrules and snake guideswrapped in dark brown nylon. Mr. Huelsenbeck make his own snake guides,on my rod the guides areblack, for my opinion mabye to big in size for an #3 rod. The reel seatis made from cork, with aluminum butt cap and ring.The rod cames with a pvc made rod tube with leather endcaps, and acotton bag. The tube was made poorly the butt caps was the only madeo.k. on the tube. But for me that was not so important, i was onlyinterested in the rod. And like i said, for this price the rod is madegood!Must say, the rod is made good, with nickle silver ferrules and a verynice made cork gripwith wooden inlets. The action is not bad, for my todays experience alsonot very good -think the customer must say he like it or not, not me as rodmaker. Now, after some years, i`m wellknown with Mr. Huelsenbeck, mabye i cancall him "a friend". We talk(ed) a lot about cane rodmaking, and i askedhim if he make his rod by handplaning or with a mill or beveler.He said no, he`s a handplaner. He leraned the craft from his Pa, not arodbuilder but a"Woodcrafter". Also today, Mr. Huelsenbeck make his rods not as a fullprof, but nearby. Think 50% as rodmaker, and the other half as"woodcrafter".His firm is growing each year and must say he has many orders.He make Fly-, spin-, salmon- and also carp rods ( for our english guys),lenghts range from 6-to 13 ft. Prices range from DM 300.- to DM 5000.-.He makes all two years a catalogue only for his split cane rods, andoffers also blanks for a very modest price.He sells also planing forms and tonkin culms to other rodmakers, i hadone planing form him, and also some culms. The planing form will go forbeginners, think profs must have are looking for a better quality., andthe first delivery of culms wasn`t very good, the second was 1 Aqualitiy - but that was some years ago, think today things have changed. Think he`s a great competitor for other european rodmakers, he advertisesince 4 years in 2 big german flyfishing magazines ( mabye alsoothers?).My rods are different to Mr. Huelsenbecks and i have other clients, morelooking for exclusivity ( also in the price), but must truly say, he`salso an competitor for me. He has also customers here in Switzerland, but our non written"gentlemens agreement" is i sell my rod exclusiv in my region, he "takesthe rest". Except i had requests direct fromgerman flyfishers ( and i have), and hes has direct requests fromSwitzerland ( and he has).In my region he sells not to the tackle store`s, it`s not why me, aftermy talks with tackle stores, they can`t and won`t believe he make notbad rods. And shure, for so small prices, he offers not very muchdiscounts for dealers mabye as me. Okay, that`s good for me, so i cansometimes sell my rods to this stores. Well, the european market, and especially the german speaking market wasa long time( is also now?) for high priced cane rods, and we have (had) a reallysmall market for this tackle. The last years the market is slowly butshure growing.Shorter said:I was and being never "angry" to Mr. Huelsenbeck for his moderateprices, shure he helps to make our craft still alive, and flyfisherswith a lower budget has the right to buy cane rods for an favourableprice. regards Stefan Stefan GrauSwiss handmade bamboo rodshttp://members.tripod.com/Bamboorods/default.htm from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jan 14 07:13:43 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Fly Fishing Bargains List,I used to use the Gink on my hands in the winter to keep them fromcrackingwhen I was out fishing. Great stuff for that and floating flies. My brotherthe chemist told me that all it really was was womens hand cream.Bret from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Thu Jan 14 08:54:34 1999 1999 14:53:16 UT 1998)) id862566F9.0051763B ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:49:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods Richard Tyree has also done some of this type of work. I saw a beautifulexample at Grayling in 1996. I know he's focusing on other things justnow,but you might contact him if he doesn't see this thread.Best regards,-Ed cbbghl@tthsc3.lubb.ttuhsc.edu on 01/13/99 05:37:02 PM Subject: Bamboo bait casting and spinning rods With the new spirit of tolerance that has developed on the list over thepast few days, I feel that I can ask my question without being consideredaslack jawed yokel (just kidding). Does anyone know where specifications for bamboo bait casting andspinningrods might be found? Orvis offered a fairly broad selection of these rodsyears ago. Does anyone make them now? from sjstill@iquest.net Thu Jan 14 09:10:46 1999 0000 (209.43.54.114) Subject: Forgot 1 item Hi Again, Forgot about this one; Harbor Freight 7 X 10 Mini Lathe, ops checked, not used. Lot of tooling,knurling tool, quick change holders. Bunch of other cutting tools. Dandylittle lathe. Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Jan 14 09:45:52 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id AAA10943 for; Fri, 15Jan 1999 00:45:16 +0900 (JST) Subject: Los Angels area guide Hi, I am going to Santa Monica for receiving training where the head officeof my parent company is located, from Feb. 1 to 12.As I have two free days on week end, I am planning to shop around there,probably in LA looking for such things as Nyatex Epoxy, Shell Epon, rodmaking tools (finger nalebit on router, block plane), cork grips or corks, guides,books, hackle capes, etc.. If there is someone in LA area, would you please advise me where tovisit? How is the weather at the beginning of Feb? How far fromS.Monica to LA? Forgive me using bandwidth on private matter, folks. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from flyfish@frontier.net Thu Jan 14 11:46:08 1999 Subject: 60 degree Starrett point for dial indicator boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0087_01BE3FAA.E00EA940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BE3FAA.E00EA940 Hi! I'm new and I need an address and/or phone number of a Co. that =sells the Starrett point. I also need a diffuser for a Black & Decker =heat gun.ThanksJim Aubrey ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BE3FAA.E00EA940 diffuser for a Black & Decker heat gun.ThanksJim =Aubrey ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BE3FAA.E00EA940-- from Coclapro@aol.com Thu Jan 14 12:46:01 1999 Subject: amonia steam Does anyone know the process for using amonia steam to color bamboo ?I am trying to match the color for a new tip for a W M Granger victory rod.Any help would be appreciated . thanks dave anthony from sjstill@iquest.net Thu Jan 14 13:07:19 1999 0000 (209.43.53.31) Subject: price list Geez, I'm overwhelmed by the responses. I can't begin to even sort outwhowants what, so I'll just do this (like I should have done in the first place). 4 @ 6' pcs of bamboo 10.00 each 1 @ George Barnes made Quad planing form, brand new, never used. This ismade of wood. 230.00 (this is exactly what I paid for it in Dec '98) 2 @ Stanley 91/2 planes, both older models. 1 has a Hock blade 45.00 forthe Hock bladed, 40.00 for the standard. 1 Dunlap block plane, larger than the 9 1/2, good for roughing 30.00 1 aluminum Garrison type binder with thread 150.00 1 Mitoyo dial indicator with base, cal. bar and 2 @ 60* points 105.00 Ass't of old (H-I?) snake guides, very nice shape, probably well over 100pcs. 85.00 Ass't of about 75 chrome stripper guides 60.00 1 copy of Wayne's book 38.00 1 copy of Garrison (newer ed.) 60.00 1 copy Best of Planing Form 20.00 1 6" Cen-Tech dial caliper 15.99 2 @ roller type sharpening jigs 8.00 each Lathe and tools 450.00 Shipping is not included in the above prices. Bear in mind that themajority of this stuff is brand new. I'd prefer cash, but could be open totrades. Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN from tom@cet-inc.com Thu Jan 14 13:13:54 1999 0000 Subject: Re: ammonia steam Dave,I use ammonium carbonate chunks in my oven while I'm heat treating tobrowntone cane. I'm sure it is covered in Maurer's new book since I learnedit from him but my copy is not handy. It can be corrosive to the ovendepending on what type you use and the ammonia fumes need to beventilated. Tom-----Original Message----- Subject: amonia steam Does anyone know the process for using amonia steam to color bamboo ?I am trying to match the color for a new tip for a W M Granger victoryrod.Any help would be appreciated . thanks dave anthony from rrappe@wirelessnorth.com Thu Jan 14 13:59:35 1999 Subject: Phillipson Mystery Blank My first visit here. Quick background. I built about 80 rods beforeputting the planing form away 20 years ago. During that period, I got somestock from what I've been calling the "Colorado Stash" (The sameGranger-WM- Phillipson stuff now in Rick's Rods possession). Among thestuffI put away were three sets of seven foot 2/2 Phillipson blanks, and overthelast weeks, have gotten re-involved by putting them up. So, for my first dialog with this august group, I want to tell you about oneof them that I am just now finishing and gather your thoughts on what Imight have. The two tips are clearly impregnated Phillipson, but when Iwasfitting the butt for the female #12 ferrule, the cane cut likenon-impregnated, yet the blank came with the butt well buffed and on thesurface looks like any other impregnated Phillipson...perhaps a bit lighterin color and the glue lines are far less pronounced than is typical. To besafe, I hand rubbed a couple of coats of Birchwwod Casey Tru-oil(gunstockfinish) onto the shaft into a nice semi-gloss look. In the process of final buffing, I noticed some faint writing on two of theflats as though someone wrote initials and numbers on the section beforefinal sanding, and it bled into the cane. I can't read it, it is so faint,but it is clearly not something that was on the bamboo until after thesection was complete. Remember too, I hand picked this rod sectionmyselfout of incomplete rod stock so I can personally attest that it is not arefinished section where the markings are the remnants. Well, the final mystery is when I assembled the sections for the firstwaggle. This is not a standard Phillipson taper, at least not like anyother Granger- Phillipson I've ever had in my hands. This is a "crisp" dryfly rod. Not tippy mind you, but definitely faster than the standard whichI would describe as "flowing". My recollections may be incomplete, but I was always under theimpressionthat after Bill Phillipson "tweaked" the original Granger tapers in theearly 1930's no more changes were ever made, and that when he startedmakingrods under his own name after WW2, he just kept using them. And I haveseen, and even made up myself rods that mixed Phillipson and Grangerpartsthat were good actioned rods that worked well. My question is did Phillipson go beyond the original Granger tapers andmakesome "dry fly" models? Or could the marking indicate that I have someexperimental taper? All I know is that I really like how this rod actionfeels, and I just might get real attached to this rod, so I'd like to knowif I have some fluke, or if I should start searching for a particularoriginal Phillipson that has this same crisp action? from gaff@carol.net Thu Jan 14 14:00:04 1999 Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:59:49 -0500 Subject: Re: price list Steve Stillabower wrote: Geez, I'm overwhelmed by the responses. I can't begin to even sort outwhowants what, so I'll just do this (like I should have done in the firstplace). 4 @ 6' pcs of bamboo 10.00 each 1 @ George Barnes made Quad planing form, brand new, never used. Thisismade of wood. 230.00 (this is exactly what I paid for it in Dec '98) 2 @ Stanley 91/2 planes, both older models. 1 has a Hock blade 45.00 forthe Hock bladed, 40.00 for the standard. 1 Dunlap block plane, larger than the 9 1/2, good for roughing 30.00 1 aluminum Garrison type binder with thread 150.00 1 Mitoyo dial indicator with base, cal. bar and 2 @ 60* points 105.00 Ass't of old (H-I?) snake guides, very nice shape, probably well over 100pcs. 85.00 Ass't of about 75 chrome stripper guides 60.00 1 copy of Wayne's book 38.00 1 copy of Garrison (newer ed.) 60.00 1 copy Best of Planing Form 20.00 1 6" Cen-Tech dial caliper 15.99 2 @ roller type sharpening jigs 8.00 each Lathe and tools 450.00 Shipping is not included in the above prices. Bear in mind that themajority of this stuff is brand new. I'd prefer cash, but could be open totrades. Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN thanks steve.wil. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 14 15:15:31 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Silicon Snakes Tom,bronze is a very hard wearing material and the line is soft and usuallywet. Iam sure that it will stand up to the task. Hard chromed wire guides wouldlastlonger but they look out of place on a cane rod. To me at least.Terry TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/14/99 1:54:39 AM, hexagon@odyssee.net wrote: are made of bronze. >> Yes, Terry, but try running them without oil and see how long they last. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 14 15:34:40 1999 Subject: Re: Some stuff for sale Steve,perhaps you should seek some counseling from the senior list members, itlooksserious.Terry Steve Stillabower wrote: Hi All, This is a non-commercial post. Someone can profit from my mistake. I have the following for sale;4 @ 6' pcs of bamboo1 @ George Barnes made Quad planing form, brand new, never used2 @ Stanley 91/2 planes, both older models. 1 has a Hock blade1 Dunlap block plane, larger than the 9 1/2, good for roughing1 aluminum Garrison type binder with thread1 Mitoyo dial indicator with base, cal. bar and 2 @ 60* pointsAss't of old (H-I?) snake guides, very nice shape, probably well over 100pcs.Ass't of about 75 chrome stripper guides1 copy of Wayne's book1 copy of Garrison (newer ed.)1 copy Best of Planing Form1 6" Cen-Tech dial caliper2 @ roller type sharpening jigs All I can think of off the top of my head. E-mail me at Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jan 14 16:08:42 1999 via smap (4.1) 14:15:17 PST Subject: RE: Phillipson Mystery Blank Rick, I'm no expert on Phillipsons, but the 7' Peerless 5 wt. taper seems to be very stiff in the butt with most of the action in the tip which makes for what I assume to be a faster dry fly action. I just finished a blank but have not completed the rod. The swelled butt and significant reduction beginning just above the ferrule in the tip section gives me the impression that this will be a tip action type rod. The Peerless rods were impregnated, and since they came along later (I believe) wouldn't they be a taper other then that used during Granger production. I of course don't know, but am only speculating. Maybe you have old 7' Peerless blanks. Others on this list know far more than I do of Granger and Phillipson history. The 9' Phillipson Premium I have feels far more like the Grangers I have cast and I assume the taper is the same or similar as earlier Grangers of the same mass wt. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jan 14 16:11:39 1999 via smap (4.1) 14:17:46 PST Subject: Re: Phillipson Mystery Blank Rick, One more thought. As you probably know, some of the Phillipson blankshave an inspector or quality control persons number near the cork. If this is put on when the blank is inspected, maybe this is the faded out numbersyou see. More speculation. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from paullyon@epix.net Thu Jan 14 18:15:59 1999 ESMTP id TAA18788 Subject: Farewell mac-creator="4D4F5353" One and all: Well boys, it's been fun and interesting but I'm signing off for awhile.Can't seem to keep up with 50+ e-mails a day. Got no time left to spendtying or working on my rods. And when fishing season rolls around,forget about it. Appreciate all the help and insights. For those of youwith whom I've struck up a friendship, keep in touch and let's gofishing sometime. Tight lines to all. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PApaullyon@epix.net from briansr@point-net.com Thu Jan 14 18:38:27 1999 0000 Subject: Re:fly fishing bargains If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly into mixtureandfish away!! A bomber thus treated will float "all day"No false castingrequired to dry the fly off(very convenient for Spey casting), and keepsthe fly on the water.Cheers BrianPS One other product that is very good is Dow Corning DC4 , but using thisis definitely NOT in the fly fishing bargain category .Cheers Brian from BThoman@neonsoft.com Thu Jan 14 19:06:33 1999 Subject: Help rodmakers recepients from BThoman@neonsoft.com Thu Jan 14 19:07:11 1999 Subject: help rodmakers recipients from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 14 19:36:17 1999 Subject: Duracane Check this site out, they have some synthetic cane.Http:/www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html from sjstill@iquest.net Thu Jan 14 19:38:36 1999 0000 (209.43.53.223) Subject: Thanks to All! Thanks to all who were interested in my supplies. I have commitments foreverything except Wayne's book and the chrome stripper guides. This has really been a great List. I shall miss it. Sincerest Regards, Steve Steve and Julie StillabowerIndianapolis, IN from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 14 19:56:08 1999 Subject: Duracane sorry, try thisCheck this site out, they have some synthetic cane.http://www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jan 14 23:50:13 1999 Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly into mixtureandfish away!! > Brian,I have read that people also used to dissolve paraffin in carbontetrachloride to use as fly floatant. The problem with these mixtures istheoil slick tends to spook fish.Steve from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jan 14 23:53:10 1999 Subject: Re: Duracane Check this site out, they have some synthetic cane.Http:/www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html Interesting. Have you tried splitting or heat treating it?Steve from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 15 07:50:25 1999 Subject: Re: Duracane At 10:53 PM 1/14/99 -0700, you wrote: Check this site out, they have some synthetic cane.Http:/www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html Interesting. Have you tried splitting or heat treating it?Steve Of more interest is the 5" Tonkin they have listed.Gary H. from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 15 09:04:15 1999 Subject: Re: Duracane Steve,if there was enough interest we could get them to extrude us triangularstrips(nodeless of course)TerrySteven Weiss wrote: Check this site out, they have some synthetic cane.Http:/www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html Interesting. Have you tried splitting or heat treating it?Steve from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 15 09:27:01 1999 KAA126428;Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:26:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains =_NextPart_000_01BE4071.7E5C1A80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4071.7E5C1A80 The problem, too, with carbon tetrachloride, is that it is a highlyvolatile and dangerous substance. The fumes are toxic, and I believe it isno longer available on any commercial market. One can, however, pay avisit to one's local drycleaner and obtain a small container of theirsubstitute dry cleaning agent. You can then mix about eight ounces of thiswith a round "pellet" of silicone-based Musilin about the diameter of adime. The Musilin is slow to dissolve, however, so place it in a small cup andadd only an ounce or two of the dry cleaning agent. Crush and mix this until itturns completely into solution, and then add this to the remaining fluid. Shake the whole of it extremely well to be certain it is all in solution. You'll have enough flotant to last a few years. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Steven Weiss Subject: Re:fly fishing bargains Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:49 PM If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly into mixtureandfish away!! > Brian,I have read that people also used to dissolve paraffin in carbontetrachloride to use as fly floatant. The problem with these mixtures istheoil slick tends to spook fish.Steve------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4071.7E5C1A80 The problem, too, withcarbon =tetrachloride, is that it is a highly volatile and dangerous substance. = local drycleaner and obtain a small container of their substitute dry = however, so place it in a small cup and add only an ounce or two of = completely into solution, and then add this to the remaining fluid. = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4071.7E5C1A80-- from Turbotrk@aol.com Fri Jan 15 09:35:37 1999 Subject: Ovens Has anyone got any plans on how to make an oven. I would love to seewhatothers have done. thanks in advanceStuart Miller from dmanders@telusplanet.net Fri Jan 15 09:41:11 1999 don") byedtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Fri, 15 Jan 199908:40:43 - 0700 Subject: Re:fly fishing bargains At 10:49 PM 1/14/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly into mixtureandfish away!! > Brian,I have read that people also used to dissolve paraffin in carbontetrachloride to use as fly floatant. The problem with these mixtures istheoil slick tends to spook fish.Steve + Carbon Tet will kill you deader than a nit. Don from LambersonW@missouri.edu Fri Jan 15 09:51:26 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: RE: Son of Cork Order Davy - I was curious if there was any news on the cork order. I recently got100 rings from Cabela's so I'm not in any hurry, but I'll be interested inother sources. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: Son of Cork Order Dear All-Who-Participate Just thought all should know: Cork Specialties returned my check. Since itwas not accompanied by anything which could be construed as"communication"-just an envelope and a check (?)- I assume he doesn't feel that he cansatisfy me as regards quality. Since everybody has been very patient and gone along with it thus far, Iwanted to inform all involved that I've selected another dealer, ChristKishish of C&D Trading in Minnesota. If anyone has pertinent comments re.this firm, or is just tired of the ride and wants to get off, please let meknow. I hope none take me up on this, since we are just at a good pricebreak now, and defections would limit our buying power. I will certainlyhonor any such requests, however, with no ill will whatever, in case that'sanyone's desire. I'll stand by a couple of days to gauge the wind, then I'll launch,hopefully, our final probe. Keeping the Faith,Davy from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 15 09:55:38 1999 Subject: Re: Ovens Has anyone got any plans on how to make an oven. I would love to seewhatothers have done. thanks in advanceStuart Miller Check the various books, Garrison's, Cattanach's, Howell's, Maurer's -- allhave good stuff on ovens. Also check http://home1.gte.net/JFoster/ forinformation of all kinds regarding rodmaking. Plenty of fun research.I spent about a year studying every source I could find before I split myfirst pole.Steve from anglport@con2.com Fri Jan 15 11:13:25 1999 Subject: Re: Ovens Stuart,You might also take a look at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FNeunemann/ He has a hot-air-gun powered one. I'VE GOT ONE UTILIZING A 6" HOT AIRDUCTPIPE AND TWO SALVAGE HEAT-UNITS BUT UNLESS YOU WANT TO HELP MEWORK THEKINKS OUT OF IT BY BUILDING ONE EXACTLY LIKE I i THINK i'LL WAITAWHILE TOSUGGEST YOU GO MY WAY.aRTSorry for the shouting; I don't watch the screen and I hit the caps lockand I AIN'T gonna retype this!!! At 10:34 AM 1/15/99 EST, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote:Has anyone got any plans on how to make an oven. I would love to seewhatothers have done. thanks in advanceStuart Miller from sshorb@ozip.net Fri Jan 15 11:31:31 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-55785U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:33:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Ovens I'm working on one using 3 two ft sections of stove pipe, 3" for theinside and 6" for the outside. My heat gun didn't put out enough heator air volume so I've added a little blower (3" radio shack muffin fan)that I had laying around for years and will try a different heat source. Skip from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jan 15 11:51:33 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Is the list quite today? from jefffly@choice.net Fri Jan 15 12:19:49 1999 NAA08139; Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains Duh!!!!!!!! I think a tube of floatant costs slightly more than a couple ofbucks. Do we need to start a fund for the unfortunate rodmakers thatcan'tafford some. Jeff -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re:fly fishing bargains At 10:49 PM 1/14/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly into mixtureandfish away!! > Brian,I have read that people also used to dissolve paraffin in carbontetrachloride to use as fly floatant. The problem with these mixtures istheoil slick tends to spook fish.Steve + Carbon Tet will kill you deader than a nit. Don from frankc@webspan.net Fri Jan 15 12:25:17 1999 Subject: chemicals 5BE20AA8E0523592CBEB76C3" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 5BE20AA8E0523592CBEB76C3 Anyone have a source for a small quantity of Nitric Acid or know whatindustries use this chemical? Frank --------------5BE20AA8E0523592CBEB76C3 begin: vcardfn: FRANKn: ;FRANKemail;internet: frankc@webspan.net end: vcard --------------5BE20AA8E0523592CBEB76C3-- from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Jan 15 13:25:53 1999 Subject: Re: chemicals I believe it's used for etching glass among other things. Do metalplaters use it too? Regards, Bobflysupplies@yahoo.com On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Frank Caruso wrote: Anyone have a source for a small quantity of Nitric Acid or know whatindustries use this chemical? Frank from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Fri Jan 15 13:35:52 1999 via NOTES ," - (052)frankc(a)webspan.net" Subject: Re: chemicals It's also used in solution by jewelers to test gold content from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Fri Jan 15 14:40:22 1999 user@gateus.meissner-wurst.com gateus.meissner-wurst.com viasmap (4.1) (5.0.1460.8) Subject: RE: chemicals Semiconductor fabs typically use nitric acid... they also use hydrofluoricacid which is the agressive glass etching acid (it has to be stored andshipped in plastic containers 'cause it will eat glass bottles.) I used to work in an analytical lab where we used to "preserve" watersamples by adding Nitric until the pH was Anyone have a source for a small quantity of Nitric Acid or know whatindustries use this chemical? Frank from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Fri Jan 15 14:42:37 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id JAA01338; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:40:45 +1300 Subject: Re: Ovens Skip, I had a similar problem and found that by putting another 1" tube insidetheouter tube which stopped about 4" above the bottom , and putting the heatgun into the top of this 1" tube so the hot air was actually delivered atthe bottom of the device I got an instant increase in temp of about 100degrees in the cooking tube and a far more even heat in it . When I first built mine I could not get above 175 degrees in the cookingtube out of a heat gun surposed to deliver 750 . With the above additionandsome insulation around the outside it now settles around 310 to 350 (I donot know why it differs from one day to the next ) and burns tips after 6.5minutes.I am sure that moving air ovens are equally effective atconsiderably lower temperatures then still air ovens ( the engineers onthelist will have the technical explanation as to why ) It may be worth fiddling a bit before you think about a new heat gun . Iank At 11:31 AM 15/01/99 -0600, Skip Shorb wrote:I'm working on one using 3 two ft sections of stove pipe, 3" for theinside and 6" for the outside. My heat gun didn't put out enough heator air volume so I've added a little blower (3" radio shack muffin fan)that I had laying around for years and will try a different heat source. Skip from kmasten@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 15 16:37:20 1999 ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Phillipson "Perfected"? Does anyone know about the "Perfected" series of Phillipsons. I ran acrossone today and can't find the "Perfected" name in any of my literature. Thanks, Kevin Masten from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Jan 15 16:51:53 1999 via smap (4.1) 14:57:51 PST Subject: RE: Phillipson "Perfected"? Kevin, Is it bamboo or fiberglass? Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from destinycon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 15 17:26:38 1999 Subject: Re: Phillipson "Perfected"? Kevin,Phillipson and Fred DeBell both made a model called the "Kibby GartPerfected" for Gart Brothers Sporting Goods in Denver. I don't thinkeither maker had there name on the rod, I know Fred's did not. Qualityalone should tell you the difference. At 03:36 PM 1/15/99 -0700, Kevin Masten wrote:Does anyone know about the "Perfected" series of Phillipsons. I ranacrossone today and can't find the "Perfected" name in any of my literature. Thanks, Kevin Masten from swilson1@WHC.NET Fri Jan 15 17:54:36 1999 Subject: Re: chemicals Nitric acid is also somewhat difficult to store, don't store the cappedbottle near any metal you would like to keep (don't store it in the samecabinet with your stock of ferrules). Scott from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 15 17:57:32 1999 Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:57:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains =_NextPart_000_01BE40B8.CD8295C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE40B8.CD8295C0 Dear Duh, Good fly floatant costs slightly more than twice a couple of bucks, and forthose of us who fish several evenings a week throughout the season, we gothrough quite a bit of the stuff--not to mention what we spill and whatevaporates. Sorry to haverattled your chain, but if you prefer to buy your floatant, please feelfree to suit yourself. Bill. ----------From: Jeff Arnold Cc: briansr@point-net.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re:fly fishing bargains Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:16 AM Duh!!!!!!!! I think a tube of floatant costs slightly more than a coupleofbucks. Do we need to start a fund for the unfortunate rodmakers thatcan'tafford some. Jeff -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Cc: briansr@point-net.com ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:48 AMSubject: Re:fly fishing bargains At 10:49 PM 1/14/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: If you can't afford Ginke's stuff or Albolene.Shave a SMALL amount ofparaffin into a jar of white gas(Coleman fuel).Dip your fly intomixtureandfish away!! > Brian,I have read that people also used to dissolve paraffin in carbontetrachloride to use as fly floatant. The problem with these mixturesistheoil slick tends to spook fish.Steve + Carbon Tet will kill you deader than a nit. Don ------=_NextPart_000_01BE40B8.CD8295C0 Dear Duh,Good fly =floatant costs slightly more than twice a couple of bucks, and for those =of us who fish several evenings a week throughout the season, we go =through quite a bit of the stuff--not to mention what we spill and what = to buy your floatant, please feel free to suit = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE40B8.CD8295C0-- from lblan@provide.net Fri Jan 15 18:00:08 1999 Subject: RE: Duracane Take a look at the info on the Tonken (their spelling) they claim 3/4" to5"?? -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu AcklandSent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:58 PM Subject: Duracane sorry, try thisCheck this site out, they have some synthetic cane.http://www.safarithatch.com/duracane.html from sshorb@ozip.net Fri Jan 15 18:22:27 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-55785U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:23:51 -0600 Subject: Re: fly fishing bargains I heard somewhere that Rain-x works also. Skip from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 15 18:38:42 1999 Subject: Re: chemicals Anyone have a source for a small quantity of Nitric Acid or know whatindustries use this chemical? Frank Try jewelry manufacturers supply, since nitric acid is used in gold testkits for determining karats.Steve from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 15 18:44:11 1999 Subject: Re: fly fishing bargains I heard somewhere that Rain-x works also. Skip Scotchguard is good , put flies in a jar after tying them and spray withScotchguard, let them dry thoroughly before using.Steve from fiveside@net-gate.com Fri Jan 15 19:59:14 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29947 for ;Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:59:06 Subject: Floatants To the List,What a nice bit of nostalgia. I go back to the amadou and solvent/parafinfly floatant era. I tried many combos. They did trail a nice fragrance, madeinteresting color changes in flies, and picturesque stains on fly vests butlet me say that after the Albolene/Gink products surfaced I never lookedback. There is something to be said for the DC4/solvent combo because itcanbe applied at the tying vise and does last, and stops hook rusting, butwhen you want to float a slime drenched dry fly right now nothing to myknowledge beats a paper tissue and A/G grease. Bill from mrj@aa.net Fri Jan 15 20:07:00 1999 Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:06:52 -0800 "'rodmakers'" Subject: RE: no but you are(G) -----Original Message----- W Subject: Is the list quite today? from dickay@alltel.net Fri Jan 15 22:00:18 1999 WAA29579; Subject: Re: Floatants Bill, All,Is Alboleen a brand name or an ingredient? What is A/G grease? I amfairly new to this sport and don't know all of these good bargains. ThanksDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----------From: Bill Fink Subject: FloatantsDate: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:59 PM To the List,What a nice bit of nostalgia. I go back to the amadou andsolvent/parafinfly floatant era. I tried many combos. They did trail a nice fragrance,madeinteresting color changes in flies, and picturesque stains on fly vestsbutlet me say that after the Albolene/Gink products surfaced I never lookedback. There is something to be said for the DC4/solvent combo because itcanbe applied at the tying vise and does last, and stops hook rusting, butwhen you want to float a slime drenched dry fly right now nothing to myknowledge beats a paper tissue and A/G grease. Bill from rcurry@top.monad.net Fri Jan 15 22:30:15 1999 Subject: Re: Floatants Dick,Albolene is, and I quote," An unscented liquifying cleanser". Like Gink, itturns to a liquid at skin temperature, below skin temperature, its a clearpaste. Contents: Mineral oil, Petrolatum, Paraffin, Ceresin, Beta Carotene.Cost is about $11 for a tub of 12 oz. (lifetime supply as floatant, twoweeksupply for teenage daughter).Best regards,Reed Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: Bill, All,Is Alboleen a brand name or an ingredient? What is A/G grease? I amfairly new to this sport and don't know all of these good bargains. ThanksDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----------From: Bill Fink Subject: FloatantsDate: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:59 PM To the List,What a nice bit of nostalgia. I go back to the amadou andsolvent/parafinfly floatant era. I tried many combos. They did trail a nice fragrance,madeinteresting color changes in flies, and picturesque stains on fly vestsbutlet me say that after the Albolene/Gink products surfaced I neverlookedback. There is something to be said for the DC4/solvent combo becauseitcanbe applied at the tying vise and does last, and stops hook rusting, butwhen you want to float a slime drenched dry fly right now nothing tomyknowledge beats a paper tissue and A/G grease. Bill from briansr@point-net.com Fri Jan 15 22:44:44 1999 0000 Subject: Floatant To Bill FinkThank's for the tip on the Albolene(It's not sold in Canada,but Vermont is amere 65km. away!!!!)To Jeff ArnoldYou are right by saying a tube of floatant costs a few bucks. That beingsaid a few of us are always in the search for something better andAlbolene,DC4 and especially wax/naptha works wonders.I'm a dry fly manandI'm always on the seach for a better floatant. The w./n. mix however asBillFink mentioned does stain the fly vest.However, I can tie a #2 Bomber on &use it as a "searching " fly as only a large bomber can for AtlanticSalmon.The stains on the vest was a small price to pay for something thatFAR excelled ANY commercial product.That fly can float for hours!!!!!!!.Comethe spring, however, I will be making a trip to Vt. to buy some Albolene.BTW the wax/naptha mix is also good for loose ferrules & to spray ontoolsto prevent rusting.It leaves a nice thin even layer of wax.Cheers Brian from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 16 07:22:26 1999 Subject: Form inadequacy Any-and-all,I have a question for anyone who'd care to venture an opinion. I'vebeguna taper that I now see will be too small in the tip for my form ( but onlyat the 10-15 inch stations). I've decide the way to go is to set the formwith those stations wide, preplane the strips so the 0" , 5" ( and therest--20" on) is correct, and reset the forms so I can finish with thefirst 5" hanging over the end. That way the 10" and 15" positions of thestrip will be sitting at the 0" and 5" in stations of the form, which I cantighten down to get the proper size for those stations. I've got a realcrawly feeling though that a free-hanging piece of .031 cane is justPLEADING to be ripped up by a free-floating plane blade.Anybody dealt with this before? Any thoughts on how to deal with it?Anyschemes at all ( even wild-- guesses) will be entertained and tried onscrap first (Remember, the decision of the judges will be final). Idon't care how wacky you may think your solution is, I just want somemore Thanks in advance for any help,Art from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Jan 16 08:35:27 1999 GAA01139; (5.5.2407.0) "'briansr@point-net.com'" Subject: RE: Floatant if you cut paraffin 50/50 with paint thinner it makes the worlds greatestend grain sealer forwood and bamboo so they dry out with hardly any splitting at all. ----------From: Brian Sturrock[SMTP:briansr@point-net.com] Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:42 PM Subject: Floatant To Bill FinkThank's for the tip on the Albolene(It's not sold in Canada,but Vermont isamere 65km. away!!!!)To Jeff ArnoldYou are right by saying a tube of floatant costs a few bucks. That beingsaid a few of us are always in the search for something better andAlbolene,DC4 and especially wax/naptha works wonders.I'm a dry fly manandI'm always on the seach for a better floatant. The w./n. mix however asBillFink mentioned does stain the fly vest.However, I can tie a #2 Bomber on&use it as a "searching " fly as only a large bomber can for AtlanticSalmon.The stains on the vest was a small price to pay for somethingthatFAR excelled ANY commercial product.That fly can float forhours!!!!!!!.Comethe spring, however, I will be making a trip to Vt. to buy some Albolene.BTW the wax/naptha mix is also good for loose ferrules & to spray ontoolsto prevent rusting.It leaves a nice thin even layer of wax.Cheers Brian from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Jan 16 08:42:02 1999 GAA01436; (5.5.2407.0) Subject: RE: Form inadequacy when Don Holbrook taught a bunch of us here in Seattle how to makebamboo fly rods in the 1960'she made us planing forms out of a 2"x4"x24" piece of wood that he hadmade 60 degree taperedgrooves of various depths in. He used a radial arm saw with 60 degreeslitting blade mounted init and made about half a dozen tapered grooves on both sides from a veryshallow one for the tipto a deep one for butts. This was my first planing form and you could findthe right depthgroove for any part of the strip that you needed. ----------From: Art Port[SMTP:anglport@con2.com] Sent: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:26 AM Subject: Form inadequacy Any-and-all,I have a question for anyone who'd care to venture an opinion. I'vebeguna taper that I now see will be too small in the tip for my form ( but onlyat the 10-15 inch stations). I've decide the way to go is to set the formwith those stations wide, preplane the strips so the 0" , 5" ( and therest--20" on) is correct, and reset the forms so I can finish with thefirst 5" hanging over the end. That way the 10" and 15" positions of thestrip will be sitting at the 0" and 5" in stations of the form, which I cantighten down to get the proper size for those stations. I've got a realcrawly feeling though that a free-hanging piece of .031 cane is justPLEADING to be ripped up by a free-floating plane blade.Anybody dealt with this before? Any thoughts on how to deal withit? Anyschemes at all ( even wild-- guesses) will be entertained and tried onscrap first (Remember, the decision of the judges will be final). Idon't care how wacky you may think your solution is, I just want somemore Thanks in advance for any help,Art from jfreeman@cyberport.com Sat Jan 16 10:21:32 1999 Subject: Mica Heat Strip Problems Folks, I guess just call me lucky, lucky - you know, the cat with three legs andone eye? Anyway, I've just built a mica heat strip oven according toWayne,and I'm having troubles. Seems I have a lot of heat in the center of theduct work and a drop of about 50 to 70 degrees towards both ends. Thatleads me to believe that the mica strip is only heating in the middle.Also, the thermostat kicks off close to where I want to be, but then ittakes forever to kick back on again. A differential of about 100 degrees. I've attached the thermostat bulb to the wire screen about 1/2 way downtherack. I've worked the extra tubing back and forth back up the screen andout the front door. Today, I'm going to pull all the extra tubing back outand attach outside the ducting and see if that makes a difference. I don'thave a clue on the mica heat strip. Desperate to get to a final planning form and looking for help. Jim from mrj@aa.net Sat Jan 16 11:23:59 1999 Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:23:53 -0800 Subject: RE: Form inadequacy Yes this is the way to deal with this problem. The only time you will haveaproblem is if the forms are too small at the tip top where you can't slidethe bamboo down to a different station. It just requires a bit more careful"miking" of the section. I will routinely slide the bamboo down when I needto make a correction. -----Original Message----- Subject: Form inadequacy Any-and-all,I have a question for anyone who'd care to venture an opinion. I'vebeguna taper that I now see will be too small in the tip for my form ( but onlyat the 10-15 inch stations). I've decide the way to go is to set the formwith those stations wide, preplane the strips so the 0" , 5" ( and therest--20" on) is correct, and reset the forms so I can finish with thefirst 5" hanging over the end. That way the 10" and 15" positions of thestrip will be sitting at the 0" and 5" in stations of the form, which I cantighten down to get the proper size for those stations. I've got a realcrawly feeling though that a free-hanging piece of .031 cane is justPLEADING to be ripped up by a free-floating plane blade.Anybody dealt with this before? Any thoughts on how to deal with it?Anyschemes at all ( even wild-- guesses) will be entertained and tried onscrap first (Remember, the decision of the judges will be final). Idon't care how wacky you may think your solution is, I just want somemore Thanks in advance for any help,Art from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Jan 16 14:47:26 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id JAA13963; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:46:00 +1300 Subject: Re:tapers Several people have asked me for tapers from rods in my collection ( if itcan be called that ) . I had a bit of time today so have miced a few . Thetapers are mainly for larger rods , designed for larger trout fished forusing a fairly large lure . Most of the rods I have not fished with but theyare well respected British rodmakers . This is intended to be a bit of a selection of larger rods rather then thebest rods by the makers. It is interestering to note the consistancy , orinconsistancy , between flats in some cases . It makes me feel betteralthough some of the inconsistancy is also due to measuring inconsistancyalthough I did use a digital micrometer reading to .0005 . Generally the rods are of the 1950's and 1960's vintage . I assume thesetapers are now general knowledge and do not relate to any individualrodmaker . There is also the Sharpes spinning rod for Gwyne and Patrick . 1. Sharpes Spinning rod . Belmont 7' , 2 pieceThis rod was in fairly poor varnish condition with several overcoats ofvarnish . Suggest to allow .006 - .008 for varnish . Some of theinconsistancy between miced dimensions could be due to the varnishinconsistancies . 1' 119, 123,1225" 131,133,13510" 151,159,15215" 172,178,17920" 186,185,18525" 202,203,20630" 216,218,21835" 239,240,24039" 249,253,252ferrule45" 286,287,28750" 301, 300,30355" 310,311,31260" 326,325,32565" 331,331,33570" 339,342,34072" 349,350,350Handle 1' with sliding rings 2. Walker Brampton "joe frost " "Tonga" rod. 9 1/4 feet , 2 pieceJoe frost was a well known guide in nz in the 1950's and this was a rodmadeto his design , specificaly for Taupo conditions of fairly large fish fisheddownstream with a fairly large lure. It was considered one of the"premium "rods in its time. Walker Brampton were located close to Hardy and therewassome movement of craftsmen between the two firms Measured over varnish which looked fairly consistant but a second coathadbeen applied . Suggest allowing around .006. I was surprised at some oftheinconsistancy between flats given the quality of the maker and the rodhowever inconsistant varnish application may be a contributor . 1' 117,122,1215" 128,131,13010" 152,155,15315" 169,172,17020" 183,192,19025" 203,201,20130" 222,221,21935" 242,242,23740" 246,244,25345" 248,253,25550" 262,265,26853" 261,266,266ferrule60" 285,280,27665" 300,305,30670" 309,309,31075" 315,315,31981" 330,332,328 (rung in the way )85" 339,341,34190" 345,344,34095" 346,349,34598" 359,360,360 99" handle 1' , upward locking reel seat 3. Hardy " the Fairy " 3 piece , 9'6" Rather heavy varnish , say allow .006. Notable for the consistancy betweenflats , most of the variation is likely to be measuring variance . 1" 95,96,95 5" 112,111,11110" 129,129,12915" 145,145,14320" 166,165,16825" 175,174,17430" 181,182,18735" 198,202,200ferrule40" 219,214,21745" 223,221,22250" 234,228,23255" 238,241,23960" 249,242,25265" 259,260,25570" 265,271,26474" 274,277,277ferrule80" 322,323,31885" 328,328,33790" 352,347,35295" 366,368,363100" 383,378,383104" 384,388,390handle 10", uplocking seat 4. JS Sharpe ( Scotland ) "scottie", 10'6", 3 piece . impregnated rod , ? no varnish . This is a very solid rod , may be suitable for salt water , but may be alittle heavy . 1" 125,125,1265" 139,138,14010" 155,159,16015" 174,173,17520" 189,191,19025" 212,209,21330" 224,229,22735" 239,243,24139" 260,262,257ferrule45" 277,276,28350" 284,287,29055" 307,309,30860" 325,325,32365" 329,330,33370" 339,338,34275" 347,349,35180" 376,372,369ferrule87" 378,375,37790" 382,385,38295" 398,397,394100" 408,408,412105" 423,423,430109" 438,438,440110 handlehandle 1'4" long . Unfortunately I have to go out now. I have another two , a Hardy specialandWalker Brampton special which I will post tomorrow . regards Iank GAt 05:28 PM 13/01/99 -0600, Gwynne Little wrote: Does anyone know where specifications for bamboo bait casting andspinningrods might be found? from mleider@mail.ptd.net Sat Jan 16 16:03:50 1999 0000 Subject: PHY midge guide spacing anyone have the original guide spacing for a PHY "Midge", or any 6'3" 2pc. -matt leidermanhttp://members.xoom.com/mleider/ from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Jan 16 18:16:23 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00603 for ;Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:16:16 Subject: re: Floatants To Those who asked,A/G was my clumsy attempt at abbreviation to avoid having to retype -Albolene/Gink. They are commercially available grease-like products. Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 17 00:01:57 1999 Subject: Re: PHY midge guide spacing Matt,cannot help you with spacing, but took a look at your cane rod links. Ineverrealized that there were so many guys making exquisite rods that werethe bestin the world. Jesus, I feel humbled that my little web site made it. Thankyou.Terry AcklandMatt Leiderman wrote: anyone have the original guide spacing for a PHY "Midge", or any 6'3" 2pc. -matt leidermanhttp://members.xoom.com/mleider/ from channer@hubwest.com Sun Jan 17 01:36:43 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A36F700246; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:38:23 MST Subject: Leonard 50df Guys(Harry Boyd);Anyone that would like the taper for the Leonard 50 df that I asked forinfo about, I have saved it in Web-based hexrod as l50df1 and l50df2. Thetwo tips on this rod measured out as different tapers. This rod looks likeit has had an overcoat of varnish, so I deducted .008 for varnish,also, Iused the middle dimension if all 3 were different, if I had 2 that were thesame I used that number.Given the extra coat of varnish, the numbers weresurprisingly close, I think about .004 was the worst variation I got.Excellent casting rod!!!! I strung it up this morning and it is way upthere on the to-do list. John from tdapple@execpc.com Sun Jan 17 08:39:10 1999 Subject: RE: Cane Rods for ca. $300 Hey guys, I know I'm the newbie who don't know nothing. But George is a pretty standup guy. Plus he's rich. He will do his best and can very possibly accomplishthe task at hand. Give em' a break, he may just do it. My 2 centsTim Apple -----Original Message----- Subject: Cane Rods for ca. $300 Dear Friends Here in the german speaking part of Europe we have since years arodmaker named Michael Huelsenbeck, think one of the wellknowest in ourregion.Many years ago i ordered a split cane rod for testing an looking hiscraft, 6 ft #3 3-piece, the price was DM 350.-.The blank is blond, varnished, very straight, ferrules and snake guideswrapped in dark brown nylon. Mr. Huelsenbeck make his own snake guides,on my rod the guides areblack, for my opinion mabye to big in size for an #3 rod. The reel seatis made from cork, with aluminum butt cap and ring.The rod cames with a pvc made rod tube with leather endcaps, and acotton bag. The tube was made poorly the butt caps was the only madeo.k. on the tube. But for me that was not so important, i was onlyinterested in the rod. And like i said, for this price the rod is madegood!Must say, the rod is made good, with nickle silver ferrules and a verynice made cork gripwith wooden inlets. The action is not bad, for my todays experience alsonot very good -think the customer must say he like it or not, not me as rodmaker. Now, after some years, i`m wellknown with Mr. Huelsenbeck, mabye i cancall him "a friend". We talk(ed) a lot about cane rodmaking, and i askedhim if he make his rod by handplaning or with a mill or beveler.He said no, he`s a handplaner. He leraned the craft from his Pa, not arodbuilder but a"Woodcrafter". Also today, Mr. Huelsenbeck make his rods not as a fullprof, but nearby. Think 50% as rodmaker, and the other half as"woodcrafter".His firm is growing each year and must say he has many orders.He make Fly-, spin-, salmon- and also carp rods ( for our english guys),lenghts range from 6-to 13 ft. Prices range from DM 300.- to DM 5000.-.He makes all two years a catalogue only for his split cane rods, andoffers also blanks for a very modest price.He sells also planing forms and tonkin culms to other rodmakers, i hadone planing form him, and also some culms. The planing form will go forbeginners, think profs must have are looking for a better quality., andthe first delivery of culms wasn`t very good, the second was 1 Aqualitiy - but that was some years ago, think today things have changed. Think he`s a great competitor for other european rodmakers, he advertisesince 4 years in 2 big german flyfishing magazines ( mabye alsoothers?).My rods are different to Mr. Huelsenbecks and i have other clients, morelooking for exclusivity ( also in the price), but must truly say, he`salso an competitor for me. He has also customers here in Switzerland, but our non written"gentlemens agreement" is i sell my rod exclusiv in my region, he "takesthe rest". Except i had requests direct fromgerman flyfishers ( and i have), and hes has direct requests fromSwitzerland ( and he has).In my region he sells not to the tackle store`s, it`s not why me, aftermy talks with tackle stores, they can`t and won`t believe he make notbad rods. And shure, for so small prices, he offers not very muchdiscounts for dealers mabye as me. Okay, that`s good for me, so i cansometimes sell my rods to this stores. Well, the european market, and especially the german speaking market wasa long time( is also now?) for high priced cane rods, and we have (had) a reallysmall market for this tackle. The last years the market is slowly butshure growing.Shorter said:I was and being never "angry" to Mr. Huelsenbeck for his moderateprices, shure he helps to make our craft still alive, and flyfisherswith a lower budget has the right to buy cane rods for an favourableprice. regards Stefan Stefan GrauSwiss handmade bamboo rodshttp://members.tripod.com/Bamboorods/default.htm from tdapple@execpc.com Sun Jan 17 08:46:00 1999 Subject: Stuff Ok, I'm going to start accumulating. If anyone has some used stuff that'sstill in good shape let me know. Being poor white trash. I need to just buythings slowly as I can afford them. Let me know if you got anything. I needabout everything. Thanx Tim Apple from jefffly@choice.net Sun Jan 17 09:46:51 1999 KAA17327 Subject: Madake or Matake Cane? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4208.40176840" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4208.40176840 Has anyone used this type of cane for their rods? I was looking through =Matt Lierderman's (sp?) website lastnight and noticed a Japanese company=called Hexastyle that uses this cane. They use it only for a very small =and lightweight rod that they sell. It looked interesting and it has =made me curious. Their "presentation series" uses Tonkin cane and they =state that the other cane does not have very large or strong power =fibers. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4208.40176840 Has anyone used this type of cane= rods? I was looking through Matt Lierderman's (sp?) website lastnight = noticed a Japanese company called Hexastyle that uses this cane. They = only for a very small and lightweight rod that they sell. It looked = and it has made me curious. Their "presentation series" uses = cane and they state that the other cane does not have very large or = fibers. Matt you have a very nice sitegoing = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4208.40176840-- from jczimny@dol.net Sun Jan 17 11:38:38 1999 0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Form inadequacy I have. Make a small, straight, form from hard wood or aluminum abouttwenty inches long. Makethe depth a few thousandths shallower than your dimension. Finish thestrip as closely aspossible on your regular form. Then, transfer to the short form and scrapeor file the tips tothe dimension that you want.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Form inadequacy Any-and-all,I have a question for anyone who'd care to venture an opinion. I'vebeguna taper that I now see will be too small in the tip for my form ( but onlyat the 10-15 inch stations). I've decide the way to go is to set the formwith those stations wide, preplane the strips so the 0" , 5" ( and therest--20" on) is correct, and reset the forms so I can finish with thefirst 5" hanging over the end. That way the 10" and 15" positions of thestrip will be sitting at the 0" and 5" in stations of the form, which I cantighten down to get the proper size for those stations. I've got a realcrawly feeling though that a free-hanging piece of .031 cane is justPLEADING to be ripped up by a free-floating plane blade.Anybody dealt with this before? Any thoughts on how to deal with it?Anyschemes at all ( even wild-- guesses) will be entertained and tried onscrap first (Remember, the decision of the judges will be final). Idon't care how wacky you may think your solution is, I just want somemore Thanks in advance for any help,Art from dickay@alltel.net Sun Jan 17 18:16:43 1999 SAA09467; Subject: Re: Mica Heat Strip Problems Jim, Locate the bulb as you had it but with the excess capillary tubeoutside of the oven. You might try locating the bulb to one side oranother of the oven. Bring the bulb in through a hole in the side of theoven. How are you measuring the temperature? What kind of instrument are youusing? There will be some difference from end to end. The ends are extrasurface area that will dissipate heat. The mica strip is probably heatingOK. In the center of the shaft of the oven control there should be a smallscrew. This is used to calibrate the control. I would count turns, if Iturned the screw, so that I could get back to the original setting. If you checked your wife's kitchen oven, I would expect to see at least a50ŸF. swing during a cycle. I have calibrated ovens and seen this swing. It appears that you are on track. Timing, how long you keep the strips inthe oven maybe the trick to using your oven. Don't despair. Keep trying BestDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net----------From: Jim Freeman Subject: Mica Heat Strip ProblemsDate: Saturday, January 16, 1999 10:15 AM Folks, I guess just call me lucky, lucky - you know, the cat with three legs andone eye? Anyway, I've just built a mica heat strip oven according toWayne,and I'm having troubles. Seems I have a lot of heat in the center of theduct work and a drop of about 50 to 70 degrees towards both ends. Thatleads me to believe that the mica strip is only heating in the middle.Also, the thermostat kicks off close to where I want to be, but then ittakes forever to kick back on again. A differential of about 100 degrees. I've attached the thermostat bulb to the wire screen about 1/2 way downtherack. I've worked the extra tubing back and forth back up the screen andout the front door. Today, I'm going to pull all the extra tubing backoutand attach outside the ducting and see if that makes a difference. Idon'thave a clue on the mica heat strip. Desperate to get to a final planning form and looking for help. Jim from channer@hubwest.com Sun Jan 17 21:23:04 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A97C9C9029E; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:24:44 MST Subject: Re: Leonard 50df At 08:58 PM 1/17/99 -0500, Jerry Quinn wrote:channer wrote: Guys(Harry Boyd);Anyone that would like the taper for the Leonard 50 df that I asked forinfo about, I have saved it in Web-based hexrod as l50df1 and l50df2.Thetwo tips on this rod measured out as different tapers. This rod lookslikeit has had an overcoat of varnish, so I deducted .008 for varnish,also, Iused the middle dimension if all 3 were different, if I had 2 that werethesame I used that number.Given the extra coat of varnish, the numbersweresurprisingly close, I think about .004 was the worst variation I got.Excellent casting rod!!!! I strung it up this morning and it is way upthere on the to-do list. Johnhi john, i would be interested in the taper, and i'm sure others wouldalso. please post. tia jerry Jerry(and everyone else);In case it was not clear in my original post, the taper is saved on FrankStetzer's Web-based hexrod, which you can reach thru the Rodmakershomepagein the software section. I run all the tapers I come across thru thisprogram because it makes it easy to graph stresses and dimensions andalsostandardizes my taper files. It also will give you planing form settings,allows for varnish deductions and has a taper archive. Anyone who hasn'tvisited this site yet, do so, it is a winner in all respects. The Leonard50 df will be saved there for 2 more days as l50df1 and l50df2, the twotips are different measurements. Maybe Frank will put this rod in histaperarchive. John from spazz@choice.net Sun Jan 17 22:46:49 1999 XAA05909 Subject: Drying motors Hi All, Who is a good supplier for low rpm drying motors?..mine is dying. Also,has anyone rigged a motor to turn mulyiple rod sections? I wonder howmany sections one motor could manage. I wouldn't think that there isthat much resistance. thanks, Kev from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun Jan 17 23:47:58 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id SAA04097; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:47:48 +1300 Subject: Re: tapers continued The following are the two larger rod tapers which I did not get time tosendyesterday 1. Hardy Special .This is a rod built for a local sports shop owner in the early 1960's. Hewas a major seller of Hardy gear and they built this rod as a special forhim . It is measured over medium varnish , say .006. The rod is 3 piece , with each piece a little different in length to theother .There is a special bag for the various lengths. I am not sure why thelengths are different as the small differences do not seem to make a lotofdifference in my inexpert mind. The cane length for each section is asfollows : tip 3'1" , centre 3'2" , butt 3'4" . 1 086 , 083 , 0855 97 , 95 , 10010 115 , 118 , 11715 135 , 135 , 13920 154 , 156 , 15325 167 ,165 , 16630 186 , 180 , 17935 198 , 198 , 195ferrule40 219 , 219 , 22245 239 , 232 , 23850 250 , 254 , 25255 262 , 262 , 26560 275 , 282 , 28165 294 , 292 , 28770 301 , 300 , 29873 303 , 310 , 306ferrule78 309 , 311 , 31180 316 , 316, 31185 333 , 337 , 33590 351 , 349 , 35195 365 , 373 , 372100 378 , 385 , 390103 handle handle 12", uplocking seat 2.Walker Bramption "Special"A 10' , 2 piece rod which had no other information on it the the "special"designation.I wanted to measure this rod as the previous WB rod showed morevariationbetween flats then I expected ( seemed more like one of my own rods ) foramaker of this quality . Measure over quite heavy varnish , say allow .006+ 1 110 , 111 , 1125 133 , 129 , 12810 153 , 157 , 14915 174 , 172 , 17420 190 , 187 , 18625 208 , 210 , 21230 225 , 222 , 22535 237 , 239 , 24240 253 , 255 , 25045 260 , 263 , 25750 268 , 273 , 27055 281 , 283 , 27858 283 , 284 , 286ferrule65 309 , 304 , 30570 326 , 331 , 32875 349 , 345 , 346 , 80 364 , 363 , 35785 374 , 375 , 38690 388 , 385 , 38295 388 , 394 , 387100 393 , 399 , 391105 400 , 403 , 408108 418 , 414 , 420 - handle handle 12"uplocking reel seat. Should there be any major inconsistancies in these figures it is probably atranscribing error . ie .. blame me not the maker however , having gone through this measuring exercise with some care itmakes me feel better about my own efforts . regards Iank from jczimny@dol.net Mon Jan 18 07:53:06 1999 -0500 Rodmakers Subject: RE: Drying motors Try Granger -----Original Message----- Subject: Drying motors Hi All, Who is a good supplier for low rpm drying motors?..mine is dying. Also,has anyone rigged a motor to turn mulyiple rod sections? I wonder howmany sections one motor could manage. I wouldn't think that there isthat much resistance. thanks, Kev from RMargiotta@aol.com Mon Jan 18 08:52:43 1999 Subject: Polishing Compounds I have some excess polishing compounds that are just sitting around heregathering dust. Both have been opened and used once but have 99% of thematerial left. Will sell each for $6 (including priority mail) or $10 forboth (including priority mail). 1. Brownells 5F, 10 oz.2. Meguiars #3 Machine Glaze, 16. oz. Respond offlist, please: rmargiotta@aol.com --Rich from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Mon Jan 18 09:44:48 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAEB7;Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:44:13 +0100 Subject: Re: tapers continued Ian Kearney wrote: The following are the two larger rod tapers which I did not get time tosendyesterday 1. Hardy Special .This is a rod built for a local sports shop owner in the early 1960's. Hewas a major seller of Hardy gear and they built this rod as a special forhim . It is measured over medium varnish , say .006.The rod is 3 piece , with each piece a little different in length to theother .There is a special bag for the various lengths. I am not sure whythelengths are different as the small differences do not seem to make a lotofdifference in my inexpert mind. The cane length for each section is asfollows : tip 3'1" , centre 3'2" , butt 3'4" . 1 086 , 083 , 0855 97 , 95 , 10010 115 , 118 , 11715 135 , 135 , 13920 154 , 156 , 15325 167 ,165 , 16630 186 , 180 , 17935 198 , 198 , 195ferrule40 219 , 219 , 22245 239 , 232 , 23850 250 , 254 , 25255 262 , 262 , 26560 275 , 282 , 28165 294 , 292 , 28770 301 , 300 , 29873 303 , 310 , 306ferrule78 309 , 311 , 31180 316 , 316, 31185 333 , 337 , 33590 351 , 349 , 35195 365 , 373 , 372100 378 , 385 , 390103 handlehandle 12", uplocking seat 2.Walker Bramption "Special"A 10' , 2 piece rod which had no other information on it the the "special"designation.I wanted to measure this rod as the previous WB rod showed morevariationbetween flats then I expected ( seemed more like one of my own rods ) maker of this quality . Measure over quite heavy varnish , say allow .006+ 1 110 , 111 , 1125 133 , 129 , 12810 153 , 157 , 14915 174 , 172 , 17420 190 , 187 , 18625 208 , 210 , 21230 225 , 222 , 22535 237 , 239 , 24240 253 , 255 , 25045 260 , 263 , 25750 268 , 273 , 27055 281 , 283 , 27858 283 , 284 , 286ferrule65 309 , 304 , 30570 326 , 331 , 32875 349 , 345 , 346 ,80 364 , 363 , 35785 374 , 375 , 38690 388 , 385 , 38295 388 , 394 , 387100 393 , 399 , 391105 400 , 403 , 408108 418 , 414 , 420 - handlehandle 12"uplocking reel seat. Should there be any major inconsistancies in these figures it is probablyatranscribing error . ie .. blame me not the maker however , having gone through this measuring exercise with some care itmakes me feel better about my own efforts . regards Iank Thanks for the tapers Iank. Could you tell us soemthing about thelineweightsthey were intended for? Rens Oosthoek from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Mon Jan 18 09:53:14 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA17B9 +0100 Subject: tip action Does anyone know if it is possible to build a tip action cane rod? I'masking this since many of my fishing mates (and potential customers)seem to be willing to consider buying the occasional cane rod as long asit reminds them of the graphite rods they're used to. I myself loveparabolic rods. Most of them consider my rods rather smooth - which theyconfuse with weak. They prefer something harder - which they believe tobe stronger.If any of you have ever built a really tip actioned rod, could youmention the taper you used? Rens Oosthoek from jczimny@dol.net Mon Jan 18 11:20:53 1999 Subject: Re: tip action Dear Rens,Any of the Dickerson taper should produce what you want.John Z "F. Keulen" wrote: Does anyone know if it is possible to build a tip action cane rod? I'masking this since many of my fishing mates (and potential customers)seem to be willing to consider buying the occasional cane rod as long asit reminds them of the graphite rods they're used to. I myself loveparabolic rods. Most of them consider my rods rather smooth - whichtheyconfuse with weak. They prefer something harder - which they believe tobe stronger.If any of you have ever built a really tip actioned rod, could youmention the taper you used? Rens Oosthoek from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 18 13:16:08 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: Thank goodness for business trips BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_k05zmA2AHVA+PYNlcWaZDQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_k05zmA2AHVA+PYNlcWaZDQ) I just found out I'm being flown across the continent in late February for a5- day conference in Seattle. Are there any places there I should visit forrod- making supplies or of interest to a budding bamboo rodmaker? I'd lovetobring home a bale of cane from Andy Royer's place but that darn overheadluggage rule... Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_k05zmA2AHVA+PYNlcWaZDQ) found out I'm being flown across the continent in late February for a = conference in Seattle. Are there any places there I should visit for = supplies or of interest to a budding bamboo rodmaker? I'd love to bring = rule... Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_k05zmA2AHVA+PYNlcWaZDQ)-- from bills@nwlink.com Mon Jan 18 14:11:32 1999 Subject: Carbon tet. boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE42DB.244DC4A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE42DB.244DC4A0 Just saw a couple of references to the use of carbon tetrachloride.STAY AWAY from THAT STUFF.While working in an emergency room several years ago a patient checked =in that spilled some carbon tet on himself. The onset of convulsions, =about 20 minutes after checking into the ER, were ugly. It was touch and = As someone else wrote "it will kill you...", leave it alone.Bill ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE42DB.244DC4A0 Just saw a couple of referencesto = carbon tetrachloride.STAY AWAY from THAT =STUFF.While working in an emergency room several yearsago = convulsions, about 20 minutes after checking into the ER, were ugly. It = As someone else wrote "it will kill = it alone.Bill ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BE42DB.244DC4A0-- from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Mon Jan 18 16:23:11 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6AA3;Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:22:22 +0100 Subject: Re: tip action J. C. Zimny wrote: Dear Rens,Any of the Dickerson taper should produce what you want.John Z "F. Keulen" wrote: Does anyone know if it is possible to build a tip action cane rod? I'masking this since many of my fishing mates (and potential customers)seem to be willing to consider buying the occasional cane rod as longasit reminds them of the graphite rods they're used to. I myself loveparabolic rods. Most of them consider my rods rather smooth - whichtheyconfuse with weak. They prefer something harder - which they believetobe stronger.If any of you have ever built a really tip actioned rod, could youmention the taper you used? Rens Oosthoek Thanks for your reply. I'll run a few of the Dickerson tapers on theRodmakers taper collection through my Hexrod programme. Rens from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jan 18 17:08:02 1999 RAA13959 Subject: ferrule removal All, Removed a ferrule that was loose from a #2 tip today. First time I triedthis or have seen anything on it, so I thought I would relay myexperience. I set a small vise so that it would just grab the end of the ferrule andlet the rod slip through. The ferrule in question was put on with twoton epoxy. I had my heat gun setting upright on high and rotated theferrule in the heat 1/2- 3/4 of an inch from the diffuser. Slipped it into the vise and gave a slow steady pull. I had a leatherglove on my right hand to prevent slippage. I didn't make any headwaythe first two attempts, so I gave the heat a little more time. A coupleof minutes and there was an ooze at the end of the ferrle. It looked asthough we would have success this time. I slipped the rod between the jaws of the vise and slowly started topull on the rod section. The ferrule started slipping off until it wasabout half way and then it shot off with a terrific force and ricocheted from the shop wall to end up in a coffee can that was being used tostore various and sundry items. So, it will work. Do mind the caveat though, and make sure nobody is inthe line of fire. Might even want to have an energy absorbing back drop. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from saweiss@flash.net Mon Jan 18 17:50:31 1999 Subject: Re: ferrule removal All, Removed a ferrule that was loose from a #2 tip today. First time I triedthis or have seen anything on it, so I thought I would relay myexperience. I set a small vise so that it would just grab the end of the ferrule andlet the rod slip through. The ferrule in question was put on with twoton epoxy. I had my heat gun setting upright on high and rotated theferrule in the heat 1/2- 3/4 of an inch from the diffuser. Slipped it into the vise and gave a slow steady pull. I had a leatherglove on my right hand to prevent slippage. I didn't make any headwaythe first two attempts, so I gave the heat a little more time. A coupleof minutes and there was an ooze at the end of the ferrle. It looked asthough we would have success this time. I slipped the rod between the jaws of the vise and slowly started topull on the rod section. The ferrule started slipping off until it wasabout half way and then it shot off with a terrific force and ricocheted from the shop wall to end up in a coffee can that was being used tostore various and sundry items. So, it will work. Do mind the caveat though, and make sure nobody is inthe line of fire. Might even want to have an energy absorbing back drop. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO The only thing you need is a red flag flying outside the work area to letpeople know that the firing range is active.Steve from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 18 19:34:34 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A18D26D008A; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:36:13 MST Subject: L50df1 Guys;I just checked on the taper and it is still there, Make sure you areentering a lower case L, then 50df followed by either a one or a tweo. Onmy screen l(small L) and 1(one) look the same, so it is possible some otherof you may not be reading the i.d. correctly and entering the wrong thing.I will change the i.d. tonite and save it for another 3 days and i willpost the new i.d. after I change it. John from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Jan 18 19:38:48 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP Subject: Looking For A Book I picked up a copy of Ray Gould's new book -Constructing Cane Rods -this weekend while I was in DC. In the Bibliography he mentions a selfpublished book titled Building The Bamboo Fly Rod by Andrew P. Hall(1980) -Does anyone have a copy or ever seen the text??????Wayne from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Jan 18 20:58:03 1999 jefffly@choice.net,dmanders@telusplanet.net, saweiss@flash.net Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains Dear Duh and Bill,Don't you know that part of the mysique of fly fishing is our stinginess?If we can't scrounge it, make it ,or buy it from Uncle Ned for a song thenwebad mouth it. :-)Regards,Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Jan 18 21:02:58 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re:fly fishing bargains Brian et al,The only trouble I've found with white gas is it stinks-I used to useparafin and white gas a lot but not for some time now. Just my $.02Hank W. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 18 21:06:19 1999 Subject: Re: Thank goodness for business trips 1F37E7A3025020AAA435BDFC" --------------1F37E7A3025020AAA435BDFC Richard,if you had got into nodeless rods you could have carried on kindlinglengths.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: I just found out I'm being flown across the continent in lateFebruary for a 5- day conference in Seattle. Are there any places thereI should visit for rod- making supplies or of interest to a buddingbamboo rodmaker? I'd love to bring home a bale of cane from AndyRoyer's place but that darn overhead luggagerule...Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --------------1F37E7A3025020AAA435BDFC Richard,if you had got into nodeless rods you could have carried on kindlinglengths.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: just found out I'm being flown across the continent in late February fora 5- day conference in Seattle. Are there any places there I should visit love to bring home a bale of cane from Andy Royer's place but that darn --------------1F37E7A3025020AAA435BDFC-- from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 18 21:57:45 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A3151F20080; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:59:17 MST Subject: L50df Guys; the tapers for the leonard 50df, I have changed the i.d. to L50df1 andL50df2. To further muddy the water, I also entered the taper that HarryBoyd sent to me and I saved it as L50dfHB. Be sure to enter as posted, withcapswhere shown, or it won't come up. these will be there for 3 daysbeforethey self destruct. Harry's rod looks to be much different than the one Ihave, another of life's mysteries. John p.s. Chris McDowell, if you read this, please send me your snail mailagain, I got a new computer and your address is buried in the depths of myold one. from mrj@aa.net Mon Jan 18 22:00:16 1999 Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:59:49 -0800 Subject: RE: Looking For A Book "Building the Bamboo Fly Rod" was the set of instructions that you gotwhenyou were taught by Dawn Holbrook. Not really a book. I was taught by oneofhis students after he passed away and I have a copy. It does contain someinteresting information and if you want I can copy off a set for you. It isabout 45 pages (single sided). This would be a copy of my "user" copy andwould be less than pristine. E-mail me if you are interested.Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Cattanach Subject: Looking For A Book I picked up a copy of Ray Gould's new book -Constructing Cane Rods -this weekend while I was in DC. In the Bibliography he mentions a selfpublished book titled Building The Bamboo Fly Rod by Andrew P. Hall(1980) -Does anyone have a copy or ever seen the text??????Wayne from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Jan 18 22:57:33 1999 Subject: Leonard 50DF Hi Gang, Channer was looking for the taper of a Leonard 50DF. It's shown in Figure42 on page 35 in chapter V of my new book "Constructing Cane Rods:Secretsof the bamboo Fly Rod". It is the one listed in the chart as a Leonardmodel 50. Ray Gould from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Jan 19 05:52:09 1999 Subject: Footprints Hi, Has anyone found a way to remove the black stains (I call this thefootprint) on old rod sections where the snake guide feet were located?I've done some testing using oxalic acid but find that even with repeatedapplications there is little if any removal of the staining. Ray Gould from hhholland@erols.com Tue Jan 19 07:03:54 1999 Subject: Re: Leonard 50DF Ray,I picked up a copy of your book from Angler's Art at the Univ. of MD FlyShow this past weekend. After just a quick run through it, I just wantedtopass on my compliments -- you cover a lot of ground, and it looks likethere's a LOT of good stuff in there! I'm looking forward to reading itcarefully. Nice job!Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: Leonard 50DF Hi Gang, Channer was looking for the taper of a Leonard 50DF. It's shown in Figure42 on page 35 in chapter V of my new book "Constructing Cane Rods:Secretsof the bamboo Fly Rod". It is the one listed in the chart as a Leonardmodel 50. Ray Gould from destinycon@mindspring.com Tue Jan 19 07:12:59 1999 Subject: Alloy #'s Does any one know the alloy numbers of 12% and 18% nickle silver? Thanksin advance.Gary H. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 19 07:43:40 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: RE: tip action Hi Rens, You might try to buy Jack Howell's book, "The Lovely Reed..." It has tapers Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: tip action J. C. Zimny wrote: Dear Rens,Any of the Dickerson taper should produce what you want.John Z "F. Keulen" wrote: Does anyone know if it is possible to build a tip action cane rod? I'masking this since many of my fishing mates (and potential customers)seem to be willing to consider buying the occasional cane rod as longasit reminds them of the graphite rods they're used to. I myself loveparabolic rods. Most of them consider my rods rather smooth - whichthey> > confuse with weak. They prefer something harder - which theybelieve tobe stronger.If any of you have ever built a really tip actioned rod, could youmention the taper you used? Rens Oosthoek Thanks for your reply. I'll run a few of the Dickerson tapers on theRodmakers taper collection through my Hexrod programme. Rens from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Tue Jan 19 08:28:15 1999 [207.28.104.1] (may beforged)) is1.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found ounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Tue Jan 19 08:31:30 1999 [207.28.104.1] (may beforged)) is1.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Stanley 9 1/2? Are there currently several "varieties" of Stanley 9 1/2 planes beingsold. I just picked one up from Lowe's for $30...looks just like all ofthe pics I see of the 9 1/2 but it says it is a "commercal orcontractors" grade. The numbers on the plane are not 9 1/2. Any infowould be helpful. Thanks. Jim Kubichek from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 19 08:53:16 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rod soam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no difference betweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hock replacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening took about thesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just that thestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice, though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previously sharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump into rodmaking anexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found ounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Jan 19 09:00:46 1999 0500 Subject: humpy nodes After I flatten the ridges around the nodes, using a file and sandpaper,I sometimes find that, although the nodal area feels flat and smoothwhen I run my finger over it, when I look at the strip as a whole thereis a kind of gradual "hump" around the node so that it is still thickerthere. I am afraid to try to reduce this hump too much, since filing itaway would seem to require cutting into power fibres - but maybe Ishould be doing that? The hump is gradual enough so that it doesn'tinterfere with initial planing, but when I place the humpy strip next toa really flat one it does stand out. What to do? from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 19 10:16:50 1999 Subject: Re: humpy nodes -clip- The hump is gradual enough so that it doesn'tinterfere with initial planing, but when I place the humpy strip next toa really flat one it does stand out. What to do? Seth,Try heating the nodes and flattening in a vise after you split the strips. Ifile the nodes on the half-culm, split, set staggering pattern, cut tolength, then heat and flatten nodes and straighten the strips at the sametime. Good reference for the technique is in Wayne C's book and tape.Steve from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Jan 19 10:27:32 1999 Subject: Where can I get the book? Hi Patrick Coffee and others who have asked, My new book titled "Constructing Cane Rods: Secrets of the Bamboo FlyRod"is available now and can be purchased through the publisher Frank AmatoPublications telephone no. 503-653-8108 in Oregon, from Amazon.com ,fromKaufmann's Streamborn shops in Seattle and Bellevue, from Teds SportsCenter in Lynnwood, WA, from The Avid Angler in Seattle, from theLynnwoodBook Store in Lynnwood, Wa. I do hope you'll enjoy it, it was a lot of work but a labor of love. Ray Gould from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jan 19 10:32:35 1999 via smap (4.1) 8:32:35 PST Subject: Making Agate Stripping Guides List, Does anyone have experience or knowledge of making agate strippingguides. My father has expressed an interest in making these. He has a rock shop with all the cutting, shaping and polishing equipment and a good supply of various agate and other rock in raw and slab form. Specifically, is a drill bit of some type used to cut the circles out of the slab material? Anyone know a location for this type of drill bit? Any help on tools needed, books or other resources available on the process? Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Jan 19 10:40:11 1999 Subject: message for John Bokstrom Hi John, Received your email and would be most happy to receive the emailaddresses Ray Gould email rsgould@cmc.net from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Jan 19 10:45:34 1999 Subject: node bumps Hi Seth, The problem of bumps, humps and lumps at the nodes is best handled bypressing the nodes into alignment rather than removing too much materialand thus weakening the strip. The drawing for a nice tool to do this withis shown in my book "Constructing Cane Rods: Secrets of the Bamboo FlyRod"on pages 46,47,48. It works very nicely. Try it you'll like it !! Ray Gould from chris@artistree.com Tue Jan 19 11:59:38 1999 Subject: Re: Footprints mac-creator="4D4F5353" I too have had a problems with this. I have tried many chemicals and stainremovers with out much luck. You might laugh but the one thing I had a bitof luck with was using a simple pencil eraser. It didn't do a bang up jobbut it does seem to help reduce the size of the stain to a certain degree. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Ray Gould wrote: Hi, Has anyone found a way to remove the black stains (I call this thefootprint) on old rod sections where the snake guide feet were located?I've done some testing using oxalic acid but find that even with repeatedapplications there is little if any removal of the staining. Ray Gould from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Jan 19 13:24:14 1999 OAA157398;Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:22:49 -0500 Subject: Re: humpy nodes =_NextPart_000_01BE43B7.22330E00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE43B7.22330E00 This is a constant annoyance, and I have come to depend on it being therewith nearly every node. But this is a heat-straightening issue, just likeall other signs of crookedness running through a node area. Simply heat the center of thenode and bend upward, against the node's unwanted curvature. Let cool,andthen, in sequence, heat and straighten each side of that node withdownwardpressure. This should leave you, not only with a flattened enamel side,but also when viewed on edge, grain that runs quite straight through thenode. You will still need to file for absolute flatness, but you're nowcloser to that objective without loss of fiber. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Seth Steinzor Subject: humpy nodesDate: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:03 AM After I flatten the ridges around the nodes, using a file and sandpaper,I sometimes find that, although the nodal area feels flat and smoothwhen I run my finger over it, when I look at the strip as a whole thereis a kind of gradual "hump" around the node so that it is still thickerthere. I am afraid to try to reduce this hump too much, since filing itaway would seem to require cutting into power fibres - but maybe Ishould be doing that? The hump is gradual enough so that it doesn'tinterfere with initial planing, but when I place the humpy strip next toa really flat one it does stand out. What to do? ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE43B7.22330E00 This is a constantannoyance, = =heat the center of the node and bend upward, against the node's unwanted = =leave you, not only with a flattened enamel side, but also when viewed = still need to file for absolute flatness, but you're now closer to that = = a kind of gradual "hump" around the node so that it is still = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE43B7.22330E00-- from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Jan 19 13:55:51 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id NAA11601 for; Tue, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idNAA15475 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 Subject: Re: Leonard 50df John, Thanks for measuring this rod and letting us in on it. The Leonard 50DF is one of the "most requested" tapers. I snagged your Hexrod files and put them in the permanent for-the-time- being archive as "#ln50df1" and "#ln50df2". Any differencesbetween your rod and Harry Boyd's I'll let others chew on. Someday I'll work on those New Zealand tapers Ian Kearney just posted,but it won't be for a while.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, channer wrote: Guys(Harry Boyd);Anyone that would like the taper for the Leonard 50 df that I asked forinfo about, I have saved it in Web-based hexrod as l50df1 and l50df2. Thetwo tips on this rod measured out as different tapers. This rod looks likeit has had an overcoat of varnish, so I deducted .008 for varnish,also, Iused the middle dimension if all 3 were different, if I had 2 that werethesame I used that number.Given the extra coat of varnish, the numbersweresurprisingly close, I think about .004 was the worst variation I got.Excellent casting rod!!!! I strung it up this morning and it is way upthere on the to-do list. John from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 19 15:09:42 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmaking planes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rod soam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening took aboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just that thestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump into rodmaking anexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found ounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 19 15:31:56 1999 Subject: Re: Leonard 50DF What do you mean when you say 'new book'? Does it offer ideas of adifferentway to build rods, or is it the usual regurgitated Charmichael/Garrison.T.Ackland Ray Gould wrote: Hi Gang, Channer was looking for the taper of a Leonard 50DF. It's shown in Figure42 on page 35 in chapter V of my new book "Constructing Cane Rods:Secretsof the bamboo Fly Rod". It is the one listed in the chart as a Leonardmodel 50. Ray Gould from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jan 19 16:23:32 1999 (5.5.2407.0) one or you guys with LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTS of ambition, who know how towork a computer ought totake the archives and publish the best of the list, kind of like best of theplaning form, andturn any of the profits over to T.U. from swilson1@WHC.NET Tue Jan 19 16:31:41 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a smallfirm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are ground sharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott from gaff@carol.net Tue Jan 19 17:59:53 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Terence Ackland wrote: Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmaking planes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening took aboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump into rodmakinganexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons foundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim KubichekWhat amazes me is that a list member is so narrow as to think thatStanley is the only maker of quality planes, or that technologicaladvancement never comes from home workshops.wil gatliff from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 19 18:07:48 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 18:09:21 -0600 Subject: BFRM Got mine today.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Jan 19 18:49:41 1999 via smap (4.1) 16:49:17 PST Subject: RE: Humpy Nodes Seth, A technique I occasionally use for straightening a dip in the split section or a hump around a node area is to heat each side of the dip/hump at the point where it starts to curve. I then bend the cane at these points and form a parabola out of the section with the apex being in the center of what used to be the dip/hump . After it's cool I then heat the apex and straighten the section again. The result is that you take out the dip or hump. Then you can straighten the sideways kinks at the node bywhatever means you normally use. Of course it looks to me like Leonard and Orvis just sanded the area flat with 100 grit. That works too. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 19 18:53:19 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Scott,I guess you have read the Hock website blurb?My Stanley blades are carbon steel, just like Hock's and rust if not lookedafter.They contain no chrome and are hardened to the same rc as Hock blades butyou paid more, shame on you!Terry Scott Wilson wrote: This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a smallfirm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are groundsharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 19 19:03:09 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Wil,it also amazes me that you guy just love to get ripped off.The guy buys the ground flat stock which is dirt cheap and hardens it. hedoes notformulate his own alloys or uses any metallurgical equipment save forperhaps ahardness tester.I do not want to see newbies spend unnecessarily, which what Richard did because ofadvice from the list.Terry w.d. gatliff wrote: Terence Ackland wrote: Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmaking planes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening tookabout thesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump intorodmaking anexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KubichekSent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons foundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim KubichekWhat amazes me is that a list member is so narrow as to think thatStanley is the only maker of quality planes, or that technologicaladvancement never comes from home workshops.wil gatliff from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue Jan 19 20:00:20 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:54:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? I don't quite think Stanley's target market is bamboo rod makers. Morelikely, carpenters who use the plane once in a while to frame a door andleave it lying around the pickup. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmakingplanes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening took aboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump into rodmakinganexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons foundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from swilson1@WHC.NET Tue Jan 19 20:04:52 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Terence, I'm not sure if I've ever visited their website. Any metals with ironwill rust, but you can alloy (usually with chromium) these to reduceoxidation (hence, stainless steels). The chromium has a slightly larger"grain" size, and thus limits the "sharpness" to which the edge can bebrought; therefore, it is the molecular structure rather than thehardness which is the limiting factor, as regards to sharpness, in asteel alloyed with chromium. You (if you care to branch in toknifemaking) can make very sharp kitchen knives with high carbon steelwhich has not been alloyed, they don't sell well because they rust anddiscolor VERY easily. Go slice some lemons and potatoes with yourStanley blade and someone else's Hock blade (I assume from yourcommentsyou don't have one) and let them sit on the counter for a while. (Irealize you don't normally slice vegetables and fruit with your planes,but it will be an interesting experiment). If the Hock blades don'tdiscolor, call Mr. Hock and raise Hell. I wasn't defending Hock bladesin particular, I was defending the idea that a person in his/her garagecould, using time honored traditions, produce items of much higherquality than a company which must meet the requirements of the"masses". Your rods, made in your garage or small shop (on yourbeveler) vs. an Orvis "plastic" rod would be another example of this said Hock blades were different than Stanley blades, as I haven't testedthem. (I do recall saying that Stanley could make any blades that theywant, but probably make what the majority of consumers will buy).Perhaps the electron microscopy/metallurgist members (I'm sure therearemay) will conduct more thorough testing and report back. In themeantime, we'll have to rely on the potato test. Scott from mrj@aa.net Tue Jan 19 20:42:25 1999 Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:42:18 -0800 Subject: RE: Leonard 50DF Terry,Have you read this book? Or you in the habit of trashing people just tomakean ignorant statement?It sounds like you think that there is nothing left to learn!Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard 50DF What do you mean when you say 'new book'? Does it offer ideas of adifferentway to build rods, or is it the usual regurgitated Charmichael/Garrison.T.Ackland Ray Gould wrote: Hi Gang, Channer was looking for the taper of a Leonard 50DF. It's shown in Figure42 on page 35 in chapter V of my new book "Constructing Cane Rods:Secretsof the bamboo Fly Rod". It is the one listed in the chart as a Leonardmodel 50. Ray Gould from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 19 22:17:36 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Hi Scott, Regarding sharpening, being a newcomer to this, I pretty much followedthetips in Wayne's and Jack's books. I sharpened on a 1000 Japanese waterstoneand then finished on a 4000 Japanese water stone using a Veritas anglejig.I'd say I spent about 5-10 minutes on each blade, maybe more (I enter atimeless state when sharpening). I then did the traditionalshave-the- hair-on-the-arm test. Both blades passed with flying colors. Ialso experimented with the Scary Sharp sharpening system. This tooworkedwell on both blades but is exorbitantly expensive. You go throughsandpaperat quite a rate. It IS a great way to true the bottom of a plane, though. All this to say I have no intention of knocking Hock's blades. I thinkthey're great products. I do think, though, that a beginner is making amistake in throwing out his Record or Stanley blade when it is perfectlyuseable. Also, for someone on a budget just starting out, it might be anitem in the nice-to- have column rather than the must-have column. Perhaps now wouldn't be the time to bring up the 100 % cotton, un- dyed`binding thread' I picked up at a craft store for $1.49. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a smallfirm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are ground sharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 19 23:26:13 1999 Subject: Hexrod download boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009E_01BE43FA.B5322540" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BE43FA.B5322540 Can someone refresh me on Wayne C's download site for hexrod?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BE43FA.B5322540 Can someone refresh me on WayneC's = site for hexrod?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01BE43FA.B5322540-- from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Wed Jan 20 06:50:50 1999 Subject: Minimum list of Tools needed to build Rods? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE4473.688188C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE4473.688188C0 Hi All, Some of you might have come across my first querie all ready,"What would=be todays equivelent of Skues WBR?" As some of you might guess I am a =Newbie myself, not only too rod building, but to this wonderful new =science - The internet. I am mindfull that someone said that some newcomers want chapter and =verse on how to construct Fly Rods, so I shall try to limit my many =questions to a few at a time. Ok, Here goes: 1) Could anyone list the minimum basic tools I would need to get =together before I could start to build Flyrods? 2) regarding forms, Could anyone recommend any manufacturer that makes=these (especially the Garrison design) who is geared up if in the US for =shipping over to the UK? Are they on the net? 3) Can anyone recommend any British suppliers for the necessary =materials and tools? Well thats my starter for 10 points. Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE4473.688188C0 Hi All, Some of you might have comeacross = querie all ready,"What would be todays equivelent of Skues = some of you might guess I am a Newbie myself, not only too rod building, = this wonderful new science - The internet. I am mindfull that someone saidthat = newcomers want chapter and verse on how to construct Fly Rods, so I = limit my many questions to a few at a time. Ok, Here goes: 1) Could anyone list the minimum= Flyrods? 2) regarding forms, Could anyone= manufacturer that makes these (especially the Garrison design) who is = if in the US for shipping over to the UK? Are they on the =net? 3) Can anyone recommend anyBritish = Well thats my starter for 10points. = Thanks. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE4473.688188C0-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Jan 20 07:10:13 1999 swilson1@WHC.NET, hexagon@odyssee.net Subject: Re: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? List,I may be wrong here but I don't seem to see much difference in blades outhereexcept for rusting qualities. The different books say how many strips thatyou should get before you have to resharpen and I don't seem to be off byfarwith the baldes that came with my planes. I bought a Stanley look alike atSears for $19.00 that I use for all my roughing work and I get some goodmilage out of it. So all you guys that have Hocks that aren't using thoseother blades send them to me as I will use them. Heck guys no senseletting"em sit in a drawer unused. I am wondering if maybe my sharpeningtecniquesare different. Now don't get me wrong I know the difference between good steel and badas Ibuild guns too and I have some chisels and carving knives that have bothgoodand bad steel in them. You learn a lot about chisels and knives in 20+yearsof gun building and carving. If anyone wants to take me up on my offer to relieve you of those bladescontact me off list. Bret from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Wed Jan 20 07:13:27 1999 Subject: A question on behalf of Marcus Warwick boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4476.95867800" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4476.95867800 Hi Guys, I have a friend over here in the UK, who is an exellent Rod Builder who =some of you may have come across. His name is Marcus Warwick. He is a =professional Rod builder who came to England from Hungary in 1948. He =learnt the art of Rod making in those days, first in Bamboo and later in =Carbon. Whilst Carbon Rods have been his bread and butter in recent =times, his first love and passion is Bamboo Rod building. He has over =the years picked up his own methods of rod building, learnt from the old =masters that had their workshops in Redditch, most of whom have long =since gone. When I told him about Rodmakers, he was fascinated, =unfortunately he is not on the net, so I hope you won't mind if I ask =the odd question or two on his behalf. There are a few processes in the Garrison book that has not worked for =him and he is curious to know how you fellow craftsmen have overcome =some of the difficulties? He is interested to know how you go about =extracting moisture from Bamboo before you begin Planing? If any of you are kind enough to answer this query I shall pass them on =to him and then ask him to send me his method to put out to the list. Thanks again, Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4476.95867800 Hi Guys, I have a friend over here in theUK, = exellent Rod Builder who some of you may have come across. His name is = Warwick. He is a professional Rod builder who came to England from = 1948. He learnt the art of Rod making in those days, first in Bamboo and = in Carbon. Whilst Carbon Rods have been his bread and butter in recent = his first love and passion is Bamboo Rod building. He has over the years = up his own methods of rod building, learnt from the old masters that had = workshops in Redditch, most of whom have long since gone. When I told = Rodmakers, he was fascinated, unfortunately he is not on the net, so I = won't mind if I ask the odd question or two on his behalf. There are a few processes in the= that has not worked for him and he is curious to know how you fellow = Planing? If any of you are kind enough to answer this query I= pass them on to him and then ask him to send me his method to put out to= list. Thanks again, Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE4476.95867800-- from gaff@carol.net Wed Jan 20 07:47:28 1999 0500 Subject: Re: Leonard 50DF Martin Jensen wrote: Terry,Have you read this book? Or you in the habit of trashing people just tomakean ignorant statement?It sounds like you think that there is nothing left to learn!Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu AcklandSent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 1:33 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Leonard 50DF What do you mean when you say 'new book'? Does it offer ideas of adifferentway to build rods, or is it the usual regurgitated Charmichael/Garrison.T.Ackland Ray Gould wrote: Hi Gang, Channer was looking for the taper of a Leonard 50DF. It's shown inFigure42 on page 35 in chapter V of my new book "Constructing Cane Rods:Secretsof the bamboo Fly Rod". It is the one listed in the chart as a Leonardmodel 50. Ray Gouldmartin,i don't think terry believes that, it's just from his pedestal, hehas a hard time seeing,'the little people', below the clouds.wil from jefffly@choice.net Wed Jan 20 08:05:05 1999 JAA17595; Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard, I am new to the rodbuilding craft and have found out that I usetheoriginal Stanley blades for 90% of the planing process. These bladessharpenfaster than the Hock blades and do a fine job of removing large amounts ofcane. I switch to the Hock for the final planing (last .010"). I like tothink that the Hock blade is sharper and does a better job, but it could bethat I spent $20 on it and everyone says it's the blade to use. It will takeme a few more rods to realize why I use one blade vs. the other. I agreewith you from a newcomers point of view, Hock blade is a nice-to-have. Jeff-----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Hi Scott, Regarding sharpening, being a newcomer to this, I pretty much followedthetips in Wayne's and Jack's books. I sharpened on a 1000 Japanese waterstoneand then finished on a 4000 Japanese water stone using a Veritas anglejig.I'd say I spent about 5-10 minutes on each blade, maybe more (I enter atimeless state when sharpening). I then did the traditionalshave-the- hair-on-the-arm test. Both blades passed with flying colors. Ialso experimented with the Scary Sharp sharpening system. This tooworkedwell on both blades but is exorbitantly expensive. You go throughsandpaperat quite a rate. It IS a great way to true the bottom of a plane, though. All this to say I have no intention of knocking Hock's blades. I thinkthey're great products. I do think, though, that a beginner is making amistake in throwing out his Record or Stanley blade when it is perfectlyuseable. Also, for someone on a budget just starting out, it might be anitem in the nice-to- have column rather than the must-have column. Perhaps now wouldn't be the time to bring up the 100 % cotton, un- dyed`binding thread' I picked up at a craft store for $1.49. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:37 PM Cc: richard.nantel@videotron.ca; 'rodmakers'Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a small>firm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are ground sharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott from sniderja@email.uc.edu Wed Jan 20 08:09:14 1999 Subject: "Schupton's Fancy" I thought that the perfect fly to catch all fish was the elusive"Schupton's Fancy." Terry Ackland has found a far better fly, if only hewould reveal its secret--EVERYONE rises to Terry's casts!!I love it!J. Snider from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Wed Jan 20 08:28:47 1999 [207.28.104.1] (may beforged)) is1.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Reprise: Japanese Block Plane Iron I'm glad my original post has spawned such lively debate but back to theoriginal inquiry: Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found onpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons or if the lamination would afford anysignificant advantage in the style of planing that we do with bamboo? Thanks, Jim Kubichek from Coclapro@aol.com Wed Jan 20 09:16:15 1999 Subject: Dickerson 4 wt Does anyone have a taper for a 7'6" 4wt dickerson ?thanks in advance- dave anthony from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Jan 20 09:24:28 1999 HAA28067; (5.5.2407.0) "'jefffly@choice.net'" Subject: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? one important thing that I learned as a luthier is that if a plane blade orchisel blade is easyto sharpen it's also easy to dull. The old Stanley blades were made out ofSwedish steel andstay sharp a lot longer than new blades or hock blades. The best chiselwere made by E.A. Berg(shark emblem) in Eskeltuna Sweden. You could sharpen a chisel in themorning and use it almostthe whole day without resharpening it and then all it needed was to bestropped. I'm no expertbut that was what I learned using planes and chisel 8 hours a day for 8+years. After trying mybosses old Swedish chisel I gave away my Japanese laminated steel chiseland water stones andfound some Swedish ones and a Arkansas hard white stone (stays flat foryears and lasts a lifetime). E.A. Berg went out of business in the 1950's and their stuff can befound at swap meetsand second hand stores. They also made the most incredible plane bladesI've ever used. My bosswas 84 year old master luthier that had!!been hand working wood since the 1930's and a metallurgical engineer andtold me he didn't knowwhat the difference between Swedish or anybody else's steel was but theyjust stayed sharplonger and he was right on the money. ----------From: Jeff Arnold[SMTP:jefffly@choice.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 6:03 AM hexagon@odyssee.netCc: 'rodmakers'Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard, I am new to the rodbuilding craft and have found out that I usetheoriginal Stanley blades for 90% of the planing process. These bladessharpenfaster than the Hock blades and do a fine job of removing large amountsofcane. I switch to the Hock for the final planing (last .010"). I like tothink that the Hock blade is sharper and does a better job, but it could bethat I spent $20 on it and everyone says it's the blade to use. It will takeme a few more rods to realize why I use one blade vs. the other. I agreewith you from a newcomers point of view, Hock blade is a nice-to-have. Jeff-----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel Cc: 'rodmakers' Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 11:21 PMSubject: RE: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Hi Scott, Regarding sharpening, being a newcomer to this, I pretty much followedthetips in Wayne's and Jack's books. I sharpened on a 1000 Japanese waterstoneand then finished on a 4000 Japanese water stone using a Veritas anglejig.I'd say I spent about 5-10 minutes on each blade, maybe more (I enter atimeless state when sharpening). I then did the traditionalshave-the- hair-on-the-arm test. Both blades passed with flying colors.Ialso experimented with the Scary Sharp sharpening system. This tooworkedwell on both blades but is exorbitantly expensive. You go throughsandpaperat quite a rate. It IS a great way to true the bottom of a plane, though. All this to say I have no intention of knocking Hock's blades. I thinkthey're great products. I do think, though, that a beginner is making amistake in throwing out his Record or Stanley blade when it isperfectlyuseable. Also, for someone on a budget just starting out, it might be anitem in the nice-to-have column rather than the must-have column. Perhaps now wouldn't be the time to bring up the 100 % cotton, un- dyed`binding thread' I picked up at a craft store for $1.49. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:37 PM Cc: richard.nantel@videotron.ca; 'rodmakers'> Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a smallfirm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are groundsharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Jan 20 09:29:41 1999 Subject: RE: Leonard 50DF Okay guys, let's all take a deep breath here a minute. I think we all canagree that name-calling on this list does nothing more than make thingsmore flamatory than they all ready are. Let's get back to rodmaking... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Jan 20 09:34:47 1999 Subject: RE: Leonard 50DF Okay guys, let's all take a deep breath here a minute. I think we all canagree that name-calling on this list does nothing more than make thingsmore inflammatory than they all ready are. Let's get back to rodmaking... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Jan 20 09:41:39 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: glue I just got off the phone with Kent Pitcher's son at custom pac adhesivesinquiring aboutBorden's L-100 urac type glue and he informed me that they sell the resinin 1 galloncontainers, which is way to big for us, but he had made arrangement withRuss Gooding at goldenwitch rods to sell us urac glues in the 1 pint size and that they wereprocessing the paperworknow. from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Wed Jan 20 09:57:40 1999 Subject: RE: Leonard 50DF Sorry for the duplicate post guys, I'm having a fat-finger day...but thenon the other hand, I guess it is a message that bears repeating! :-) Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jan 20 10:09:00 1999 Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:06:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Hexrod download 60173A8252980F90F694FF15" --------------60173A8252980F90F694FF15 Steve,Try this: http://cyber.wmis.net/~cattanac/ Steven Weiss wrote: Can someone refresh me on Wayne C's download site forhexrod?Thanks,Steve --------------60173A8252980F90F694FF15 Steve, http://cyber.wmis.net/~cattanac/Steven Weiss wrote: refresh me on Wayne C's download site for hexrod?Thanks,Steve --------------60173A8252980F90F694FF15-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jan 20 10:22:57 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: A question on behalf of Marcus Warwick Peter - Most of us have found that the heat treating times in the Garrisonbook are not sufficient. I suspect his oven was just more agressive thanwhatmost of us use today. I get good results by treating trout rod sectionsabout10 minutes at about 360-370 degrees. That, of course is with my oven andmytemperature instruments. Color change seems to be a reliable indicator ofthedegree of heat treatment when using an oven. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jan 20 10:24:07 1999 Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:21:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Minimum list of Tools needed to build Rods? 48142C7A4585A6BB95669B01" --------------48142C7A4585A6BB95669B01 Peter,Let me suggest that you ( and all those of us who are new tothe craft) read the following: Wayne Cattanach's book, "Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods."Wayne's book made rodbuilding seem possible to me. I still referto it at every step along the way, even after completing a fewrods. Wayne is a regular on this list, and one of itsoriginators. He has helped scores of us, maybe hundreds of us,accomplish the seemingly daunting task of building our firstrods. I've even heard that a new edition of his book may becoming out sometime this year. Also, Jack Howell's book, "The Lovely Reed." Jack's bookgives basically the same information as Wayne's, with morepictures; and a few more options. It is well written andenjoyable. I haven't met Jack, but feel sure that I would likehim if I did. AND Jerry Foster's Rodmaker's Website. You can find it by clicking onthis link.http://www2.crosswinds.net/sacramento/~jfoster/rodmakers/ There is enough there about forms and all other tools to keepyou busy for many, many hours. Reading through the archives ofthis list takes quite a while, but is well worth the effort. Ifind these sources to be all that one needs to get a good grasp ofthe basics of building rods.There are several of you fellows from "across the pond" on thelist. Some of them will probably be glad to help you with localsuppliers.This list is a valuable source of information. Once or twicea year we seem to get a little "testy," but that does not in anyway devalue the contributions of such a friendly group.I know these are not direct answers, but I still hope thishelps,Harry Boyd Peter McLeod wrote: Hi All, Some of you might have come across my first querie allready,"What would be todays equivelent of Skues WBR?" As some ofyou might guess I am a Newbie myself, not only too rod building,but to this wonderful new science - The internet. I am mindfullthat someone said that some newcomers want chapter and verse onhow to construct Fly Rods, so I shall try to limit my manyquestions to a few at a time. Ok, Here goes: 1) Could anyonelist the minimum basic tools I would need to get together beforeI could start to build Flyrods? 2) regarding forms, Couldanyone recommend any manufacturer that makes these (especiallythe Garrison design) who is geared up if in the US for shippingover to the UK? Are they on the net? 3) Can anyone recommend anyBritish suppliers for the necessary materials and tools? Wellthats my starter for 10 points. Thanks. Peter. --------------48142C7A4585A6BB95669B01 Peter, are new to the craft) read the following: still refer to it at every step along the way, even after completing a He has helped scores of us, maybe hundreds of us, accomplish theseemingly new edition of his book may be coming out sometime this year. Jack's book gives basically the same information as Wayne's, with more I haven't met Jack, but feel sure that I would like him if I did.AND http://www2.crosswinds.net/sacramento/~jfoster/rodmakers/ tools find these sources to be all that one needs to get a good grasp of thebasics of building rods. with local suppliers. Once or twice a year we seem to get a little "testy," but that does notin any way devalue the contributions of such a friendly group. hope this helps, Peter McLeod wrote: of you might have come across my first querie all ready,"What would betodays equivelent of Skues WBR?" As some of you might guess I am aNewbiemyself, not only too rod building, but to this wonderful new science - am mindfull that someone said that some newcomers want chapter andverseon how to construct Fly Rods, so I shall try to limit my many questions anyone list the minimum basic tools I would need to get together before regarding forms, Could anyone recommend any manufacturer that makesthese(especially the Garrison design) who is geared up if in the US for shipping Can anyone recommend any British suppliers for the necessary materials --------------48142C7A4585A6BB95669B01-- from saweiss@flash.net Wed Jan 20 11:13:56 1999 Subject: questions boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE445D.8A731E00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE445D.8A731E00 Thanks to all who responded to my question about the hexrod download = With regard to "newbies" questions:The best way to learn the fundamentals, as well as the variations of =techniques is to do a little research. Although I am eager to help =others, they should first try to help themselves. I spent six months =studying the books and the archives while putting my shop and tools =together. If I can do it, others can too. This list is a great forum for =information exchange but it shouldn't be a crutch. Most of the people on =this list who so generously help us learned the craft pre-list. A good =part of the challenge is just that--research, try, accomplish, =experiment. Then gloat when the rod casts well and you catch fish on it!Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE445D.8A731E00 "newbies" questions:The best way to learn the = as the variations of techniques is to do a little research. Although I = to help others, they should first try to help themselves. I spent six = studying the books and the archives while putting my shop and tools = I can do it, others can too. This list is a great forum for information = but it shouldn't be a crutch. Most of the people on this list who so = help us learned the craft pre-list. A good part of the challenge is just = that--research, try, accomplish, experiment. Then gloat when the rod = and you catch fish on it!Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE445D.8A731E00-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jan 20 11:14:03 1999 0600 Subject: Setting block planes Friends,Having built nearly a dozen rods, I find myself asking more questionsaboutsome of the finer points of making rods, and fewer about the basics. Letmethrow two out for discussion.First, I find that each time I stop planing to sharpen a blade I have tospend several minutes fiddling with the adjustments of my planes to gettheadjustments correct. The blades don't always go back into the plane inexactlythe same place they came out. I have to re-adjust the throat depth anddepth atwhich the blade protudes from the sole. Are there any tricks forminimizingthese adjustments? I've already removed some of the play in the depthadjustmentmechanisms of my planes, and flattened the throats with files. Any othertricks A second question for those of you who use epoxies to glue strips: Afterbinding and straightening, I use vinegar to remove the bulk of the glue. Thenthe next day I go through three steps before heat setting the Nyatex. Ipeeloff the string, wash with vinegar again, and bind the strips again. Thissecondwash with vinegar removes 99% of the glue, and minimizes sanding afterheat-setting. I've done this several times now with no apparent problems,but amI pressing my luck? Has anyone else had experience with this? Is there adangerof the vinegar getting between the strips and fouling up my glue job? Itdoessave a few hours of sanding, but I'm not sure it is worth the risk ofdelaminating the strips. Thanks in advance,Harry from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 20 11:14:31 1999 Subject: BFRM at Flyfishing Expos Hi Rodmaking Persons!Mark Metcalf has asked me to post this.Mark is going to have a booth at the San Mateo, Denver, and Salt Lake City Flyfishing Expositions this year. He would liketo hear from some of the rod makers in those areas to see if they would like to go down to the show and give some demos on how to plane cane, talk to the public and answer questions on rodmaking. This is a good way to get some exposure in the flyfishing public. Your rods will be displayed along with the other rods he brings to the show, and if you should find someone interested in buying one of your rods he has no objection to you selling them. Depending on how many people he has interested in doing thisyour time in his booth will vary, but it will be at least a half a day.Could be the whole show if no one else wants to do it. Contact Mark at bam-fly@pacbell.net if interested. I was going to be at the San Mateo show, but it looks like lifeis conspiring to deny me that pleasure. Darryl from trout@ricochet.net Wed Jan 20 11:25:38 1999 Subject: Re: Looking For A Book mac-creator="4D4F5353" Andy Hall wrote the text for the bamboo rod building course originallytaught took thecourse, but he does belong to the same club as Andy). This book is actuallyabout 70-100 zeroxed pages clipped together. If you want a copy, I can trytozerox mine and mail it to you or try to get an original copy. Let me knowifyou want one. Rob Nielsen Wayne Cattanach wrote: I picked up a copy of Ray Gould's new book -Constructing Cane Rods -this weekend while I was in DC. In the Bibliography he mentions a selfpublished book titled Building The Bamboo Fly Rod by Andrew P. Hall(1980) -Does anyone have a copy or ever seen the text??????Wayne from Anachemrpo@aol.com Wed Jan 20 14:13:43 1999 Subject: Re: BFRM at Flyfishing Expos That's great, Bamboo Fly Rod Magazine is making it to the Flyfishing Expos. ...now if I could just get it to make to my mailbox. ;-) Russ Lavigne from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 20 14:41:23 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? I have used the same blades in my 2 Stanley planes for the last 15 yearsand Ihave made a lot of cane shavings. Jon Lintvet wrote: I don't quite think Stanley's target market is bamboo rod makers. Morelikely, carpenters who use the plane once in a while to frame a door andleave it lying around the pickup. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: 'rodmakers' Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:14 PMSubject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmakingplanes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my first rodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening tookaboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump into rodmakinganexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KubichekSent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons foundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 20 14:48:27 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Scott,I happen to have worked all my life in the engineering industry and with alittle experience it is possible tell by the spark pattern and colour whatthe material is. I know for sure that my Stanley blades are plain carbonsteel.T.Ackland Scott Wilson wrote: Terence, I'm not sure if I've ever visited their website. Any metals with ironwill rust, but you can alloy (usually with chromium) these to reduceoxidation (hence, stainless steels). The chromium has a slightly larger"grain" size, and thus limits the "sharpness" to which the edge can bebrought; therefore, it is the molecular structure rather than thehardness which is the limiting factor, as regards to sharpness, in asteel alloyed with chromium. You (if you care to branch in toknifemaking) can make very sharp kitchen knives with high carbon steelwhich has not been alloyed, they don't sell well because they rust anddiscolor VERY easily. Go slice some lemons and potatoes with yourStanley blade and someone else's Hock blade (I assume from yourcommentsyou don't have one) and let them sit on the counter for a while. (Irealize you don't normally slice vegetables and fruit with your planes,but it will be an interesting experiment). If the Hock blades don'tdiscolor, call Mr. Hock and raise Hell. I wasn't defending Hock bladesin particular, I was defending the idea that a person in his/her garagecould, using time honored traditions, produce items of much higherquality than a company which must meet the requirements of the"masses". Your rods, made in your garage or small shop (on yourbeveler) vs. an Orvis "plastic" rod would be another example of this said Hock blades were different than Stanley blades, as I haven't testedthem. (I do recall saying that Stanley could make any blades that theywant, but probably make what the majority of consumers will buy).Perhaps the electron microscopy/metallurgist members (I'm sure therearemay) will conduct more thorough testing and report back. In themeantime, we'll have to rely on the potato test. Scott from pdcorlis@nidc.edu Wed Jan 20 15:22:52 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:24:03 -0800 Subject: Re: BFRM at Flyfishing Expos Amen... near as I can figure, they're still one issue behind. Phil from ejwalsh@mindspring.com Wed Jan 20 15:32:42 1999 Subject: Looking for help My fishing partner and fellow woodworker, are thinknig about trying ourhands at building bamboo fly rods. We've been doing a lot of searchingand reading and have come to the conclusion that we would really like tobe able to see and talk with an experienced maker. So, if there isanyone located in the North Gerogia area who wouldn't mind sharing some Thank You,Ed WalshFlowery Branch, Georgia from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Jan 20 16:44:30 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id QAA28464 for; Wed, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idQAA05364 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 Subject: Re: Setting block planes Harry, I have the same problem with plane blades, but for the epoxy removal,here is what I did on my last rod: After the strips were tapedtogether in preparations for glue-up, I gave the outside surfaceof the rod a light coat of paste wax. After the epoxy was cured(Shell epon), I was able to remove most (90%) of the surface gluejust by gently scraping with a bamboo scrap. I still sanded everythinglightly and gave it a rub down with mineral spirits, but I had noproblems with varnishing the rod later. If you are going to try this:1. DO NOT USE WAX CONTAINING SILICONE.2. APPLY WAX ONLY from BUTT TO TIP OR YOU WILL TEAR LOOSE FIBERS. I didn't make the first mistake but the second can cause temporary insanity.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Harry Boyd wrote: Friends,First, I find that each time I stop planing to sharpen a blade I have tospend several minutes fiddling with the adjustments of my planes to gettheadjustments correct. A second question for those of you who use epoxies to glue strips: Afterbinding and straightening, I use vinegar to remove the bulk of the glue. Thanks in advance,Harry from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 20 18:35:40 1999 ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: Setting block planes I guess everyone has his own way. I do basically the same as you except Iuse acetone. Reminds me of my model airplane building days. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com A second question for those of you who use epoxies to glue strips: Afterbinding and straightening, I use vinegar to remove the bulk of the glue.Thenthe next day I go through three steps before heat setting the Nyatex. Ipeeloff the string, wash with vinegar again, and bind the strips again. Thissecondwash with vinegar removes 99% of the glue, and minimizes sanding afterheat-setting. I've done this several times now with no apparentproblems,but amI pressing my luck? Has anyone else had experience with this? Is there adangerof the vinegar getting between the strips and fouling up my glue job? Itdoessave a few hours of sanding, but I'm not sure it is worth the risk ofdelaminating the strips. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Jan 20 19:14:46 1999 Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:14:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? =_NextPart_000_01BE44B1.683115A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE44B1.683115A0 Yet another source for truly excellent planes is Lie-Nielsen, up in Warren,Maine (the same folks who make the bronze scraper-plane that's modeledafter the Stanley No. 212). I have found that the Stanley 9 1/2 plane is just fine for "hogging-off" cane, but if you want a true revelation in finger-tip feel with perfectcontrol, get hold of Lie-Nielsen's little "Standard Block Plane." Thislittle bronze beauty is 5 1/4" long by 1 9/16" and weighs a little morethan half of the Stanley. In the final stages of planing a strip you donot want to be overpowered with a heavy plane that gives little"feedback."Lie-Nielsen's iron sharpens beautifully and holds an edge every bit aswell as the Hock iron. The difference here between the Stanley and theLie-Nielsen is much like the difference between driving a Lincoln Town-Caras opposed to a BMW Z3 on the back roads. You do what you like, but Iknowwhat my choice is. Although my Lie-Nielsen does not have an adjustable throat, I have heardthat they now make one with that feature. Frankly, after four years ofusing my little plane, I find no need for the throat adjustment. The planecosts nearly a hundred bucks after shipping and a spare blade, and thatain't hay, but once you use this little fella for your final passes,you'll have a grin on your face from one ear to the other. Cheers, Bill.----------From: Scott Wilson Cc: richard.nantel@videotron.ca; 'rodmakers' Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade?Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:36 PM This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a smallfirm. Stanley could make a blade of any composition they desired--themass market wants relatively rust resistant blades that are groundsharpon a grinding wheel. Hock is meeting the needs of a market unconcernedwith rust, but who have a different definition of "sharp". This soundskind of like the bamboo/graphite issue...IMHO. Scott------=_NextPart_000_01BE44B1.683115A0 Yet another source for truly=excellent planes is Lie-Nielsen, up in Warren, Maine (the same folks who =make the bronze scraper-plane that's modeled after the Stanley No. =212).I have found that the Stanley 9 1/2 plane is just fine for = planing a strip you do not want to be overpowered with a heavy plane = sharpens beautifully and holds an edge every bit as well as the Hock = is much like the difference between driving a Lincoln Town-Car as = know what my choice is.Although my Lie-Nielsen does not have an=adjustable throat, I have heard that they now make one with that = you'll have a grin on your face from one ear to the = This sounds like yet another "niche" market being filled by a = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE44B1.683115A0-- from dickay@alltel.net Wed Jan 20 22:59:02 1999 WAA23644; Subject: Re: BFRM at Flyfishing Expos Finally got my July/August issue today. Might of come yesterday if theUSPS had delivered my mail. Second time that the day after a nationalholiday they didn't deliver my mail and I live a mile from the main PostOffice.Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net----------From: Philip Corlis Subject: Re: BFRM at Flyfishing ExposDate: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:23 PM Amen... near as I can figure, they're still one issue behind. Phil from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 21 00:55:22 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:14:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Perhaps I did not be clear enough. My point is Stanley is not going tochange its blade composition for a market as small as bamboo rodmakers. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? I have used the same blades in my 2 Stanley planes for the last 15 yearsand Ihave made a lot of cane shavings. Jon Lintvet wrote: I don't quite think Stanley's target market is bamboo rod makers. Morelikely, carpenters who use the plane once in a while to frame a door andleave it lying around the pickup. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: 'rodmakers' Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:14 PMSubject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmakingplanes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do what Stanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my firstrodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening tookaboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump intorodmakinganexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KubichekSent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons foundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jan 21 02:39:49 1999 Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:37:33 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Jim Kubichek wrote: Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found ounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek They are excellent. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jan 21 02:55:31 1999 Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:48:30 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Reprise: Japanese Block Plane Iron I had one a couple of years back and it was stolen on a worksite.Like the jap chisels the edge you can get is superior to a Stanly orRecord as is the edge keeping qualities. I think they compare with aHock but *possibly* may be marginaly better initialy. Either would bebetter than the garden variety Stanley or Record you can purchase today.Possibly those from a little after WWII are up to scratch....possibly. Tony On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Jim Kubichek wrote: I'm glad my original post has spawned such lively debate but back to theoriginal inquiry: Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Irons found onpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how they mightcompare with the Hock irons or if the lamination would afford anysignificant advantage in the style of planing that we do with bamboo? Thanks, Jim Kubichek /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tdapple@execpc.com Thu Jan 21 07:54:27 1999 Subject: Steve Stillabower! You still have that copy of Wayne's book, if so I'd like to buy it. Tim Apple from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 21 08:30:26 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: Planing the pith apex BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_d8Oanh7FLiNbTiXxuy/LjQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_d8Oanh7FLiNbTiXxuy/LjQ) What's the consensus on planing the pith apex prior to gluing? Garrison,Howell and Maurer say to do it. Wayne doesn't mention it in his book. Thosewho are for the procedure say it allows the strips to fit together better.I've heard from veteran builders who don't do it, saying that it allows thestrips to shift around rather than locking together. Any additionalobservations I should consider before making this decision? A second question: my first rod is ready for gluing this evening. The buttsection measures .335 at the thickest end for about 12 inches beforetapering down. That's seems lot of cane under the grip and reel seat. I'mtempted to make this section hollow by removing two 5-inch sections andleaving a 1-inch dam. Would I be messing up the balance of the rod or is ita good idea to take this cane off to shave some weight? Since this area isunder the grip and reel seat, I see no danger of making the section weaker Thanks in advance Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_d8Oanh7FLiNbTiXxuy/LjQ) the consensus on planing the pith apex prior to gluing? Garrison, Howell = Maurer say to do it. Wayne doesn't mention it in his book. Those who are = procedure say it allows the strips to fit together better. I've heard = veteran builders who don't do it, saying that it allows the strips to = around rather than locking together. Any additional observations I = consider before making this decision? second question: my first rod is ready for gluing this evening. The butt = tapering = That's seems lot of cane under the grip and reel seat. I'm tempted to = section hollow by removing two 5-inch sections and leaving a 1-inch dam.= be messing up the balance of the rod or is it a good idea to take this = to shave some weight? Since this area is under the grip and reel seat, I = danger of making the section weaker by doing this since it will never = there. It's a 7 ft 4 wt. in advance Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_d8Oanh7FLiNbTiXxuy/LjQ)-- from tdapple@execpc.com Thu Jan 21 08:36:27 1999 Subject: Forms Ok, After a vast amount of input from everyone, and some deep thought. I havedecided that it's going to be hard enough to make the rod let alone theplaning forms. So if possible, can you folks direct me to a good supplier ofthem, new or used. And recommend which one you would choose? The Newbie,Tim Apple " Always one step closer to going POSTAL!! " from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 21 09:18:33 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Forms Hi Tim, Grindstone Angling, near Toronto, Canada sells planing forms for $350 cdn,something like $230 U.S. They can be reached at (905) 689-0880. Probablythebest buy you can find right now with the exchange rate between Canadaandthe U.S. so terrible ( from my point of view) or great ( from your point ofview if you are writing from the U.S.). Good luck Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Forms Ok, After a vast amount of input from everyone, and some deep thought. I havedecided that it's going to be hard enough to make the rod let alone theplaning forms. So if possible, can you folks direct me to a good supplier ofthem, new or used. And recommend which one you would choose? The Newbie,Tim Apple " Always one step closer to going POSTAL!! " from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Jan 21 09:21:49 1999 Subject: Re: Forms Tim who talked you out of making the forms. It is not that hard. If youcanmake forms, you can make great rods. It is a practice much like themartialarts. If you can do the execise, you can easily accomplish your goal. Ihave personally learned more by making the forms then I would havelearned inten years of rod building. You learn how to measure, think in very smalldimensions, and work to a specific goal of accuracy. I think this is theindoctranation that all rod builders need to go through to learn the art, notthe science, of rod building. Hate to sound like I know it all. I have not even built a rod yet, but I amhaving the time of my life making the forms and tools needed for theproject.Just cannot wait till I fish my first hand made rod and catching that firstfish. just MHOStuart S. Millervery soon to be a rodmaker from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Jan 21 09:25:53 1999 Subject: How tight is tight I have a question for the list. How tight is tight? When setting yourforms,how tight should you make your adjustments to the shoulder bolt and setscrews? I have taken mine apart for cleaning and found that the hardersetscrew had made and indentation on the opposing side. Should you crankdownlike torqueing a head bolt on an engine, or should it be just enough to gettension? Do the forms flex when planing or are they rigid enough to notrequire the extra pressure? Thanks in advance for the imputStuart S. Millervery soon to be a rodbuilder from briansr@point-net.com Thu Jan 21 10:21:25 1999 0000 Subject: Re:block plane blades Hi GangAnother co. that makes a really fine blade is Footprint.Up here in tropicalQuebec, a mere 8$Cdn .Cheaper than Stanley or Record and IMHO a LOTbetterquality. Their #4 plane blades are made a bit thicker and don't "chatter"in a #4smoothing plane. That being said they have yet to be tried on Canewith it's high silica content.Cheers Brian from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Thu Jan 21 10:31:20 1999 [207.28.104.1] (may beforged)) is1.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? Has anyone else had experience with Grindstone Angling planing forms?If you have them, are you satisfied? Were they ready to go when yourecieved them? Do they allow for a sufficiently small tip? Thanks for your replies! Jim from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Thu Jan 21 11:00:37 1999 rodmakers Subject: RE: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? I was on Grindstone's waiting list for 6 months. They never delivered.I finally bought the Colorado Bootstrap forms and have been verysatisfied. -----Original Message-----From: Jim Kubichek [SMTP:jim_kubichek@s- hamilton.k12.ia.us]Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? Has anyone else had experience with Grindstone Angling planingforms?If you have them, are you satisfied? Were they ready to go whenyourecieved them? Do they allow for a sufficiently small tip? Thanks for your replies! Jim from jim_kubichek@s-hamilton.k12.ia.us Thu Jan 21 12:37:05 1999 [207.28.104.1] (may beforged)) is1.s-hamilton.k12.ia.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet MailService Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Test Nothing for a couple of hours....just checking! from jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Thu Jan 21 13:58:15 1999 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:58:11 EST Subject: Jasper Thread Listmembers, I have a fellow TU club memeber who is refinishing a bamboo rod (fordisplay)and would like to find a source for a Black/White thread which Ibelieve has a make or trade name of Jasper ? Does anyone haveinformation where it can be obtained ? Appreciate the help and if information is incorrect the correct nameetc. Jim Tefft. from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Thu Jan 21 14:07:36 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level310) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:05:37 EST I have a question about ferrules and rod tapers and am hoping someone canadd a bit of insight. One of Wayne's rod tapers (a 7' 6", 5wt, pp. 228)calls for a size 14 ferrule and a dimension of .210 at the 45" station,i.e., where the ferrule is mounted. This translates to 13.44/64. Isn'tthat kind of odd? It's too large for a 13 ferrule (i.e., would requiretaking off lots of wood), and too small for a 14 (i.e, filling lots of deadspace on the flats). Would the action of this rod change much if I addsome to this station? For instance, adding .004 would yield 13.7/64,whichseems like a better fit. Per B. in his recent article on rod design (inthe BFR) says even such modest changes in dimension affect action. Ontheother hand, shouldn't a taper build in the best possible ferrule fit, across-sectional dimension that requires removing no material from thecenter of the flats, and minimal material elsewhere. How much spacedoes agood epoxy bond require? A fitted, symetrical cross-sectional dimensionof13.7/64 would leave about .0024 for epoxy. Comments are appreciated.--Bob. Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Thu Jan 21 14:29:38 1999 Subject: RE: Jasper Thread I think Dick Spurr still has some. Contact him at spurr@kingfisher.com. 980 yd. spools run $50. -----Original Message-----From: Jim Tefft [SMTP:jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu]Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:02 PM Subject: Jasper Thread Listmembers, I have a fellow TU club memeber who is refinishing a bamboo rod(fordisplay)and would like to find a source for a Black/White threadwhich Ibelieve has a make or trade name of Jasper ? Does anyone haveinformation where it can be obtained ? Appreciate the help and if information is incorrect the correctnameetc. Jim Tefft. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 21 14:58:22 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? John,I have been using the stock blades in my two Stanleys for 15 years, notrouble.Why should Stanley have to change blade composition for bamboo rodbuilders?Does Hock supply a special steel for rodmakers?It is not the steel that has to be changed to plane bamboo, just thegeometry ofthe cutting edge! Cane is not a super hard material, it is just different.Terry Jon Lintvet wrote: Perhaps I did not be clear enough. My point is Stanley is not going tochange its blade composition for a market as small as bamboorodmakers. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: 'rodmakers' Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:41 PMSubject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? I have used the same blades in my 2 Stanley planes for the last 15 yearsand Ihave made a lot of cane shavings. Jon Lintvet wrote: I don't quite think Stanley's target market is bamboo rod makers. Morelikely, carpenters who use the plane once in a while to frame a doorandleave it lying around the pickup. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Terence Ackland Cc: 'rodmakers' Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:14 PMSubject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Richard,it has always amazed me that a company like Stanley who have beenmakingplanes Along comes a guy working from his basement, and can do whatStanleycannot?I don't think so.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: While on the subject of plane irons, I've finished planing my firstrodsoam certainly a newcomer to this craft but I noticed no differencebetweenthe Record blade that came with my block plane and the Hockreplacementblade. Both perfomed well, held an edge well and sharpening tookaboutthesame time for both. This isn't to say the Hock blade is bad, just thatthestandard Record blade might be quite good too. It certainly is nice,though,to have two blades, replacing the dulled one with the previouslysharpenedone. Just a tip for newcomers who might find the jump intorodmakinganexpensive venture. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu KubichekSent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:27 AM Subject: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Has anyone seen or ordered the Japanese Laminated Plane Ironsfoundounpage 164 of the new Woodcraft catalog? I wondered how theymightcompare with the Hock irons. Thanks, Jim Kubichek from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 21 15:37:23 1999 QAA227670;Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:37:18 -0500 Subject: Re: =_NextPart_000_01BE455C.3F14FB40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE455C.3F14FB40 Bob, Go ahead with the size 14 ferrule. Generally, we "round-up" in ferrulesize if the last station is somewhat over the actual measurement for thenext size down. This allows a good fit even though you would only berounding off each apex. Take care though, not to take too much, as it'seasy to do this. You want a nice, tight slip-fit over the cane. Trust Wayne; his advice is always sound.. You will have space between the flats and the I.D. of the ferrule, but thiswill fill nicely with epoxy, and will give a good secure bond. This is a farbetter arrangement than cutting cane away to accommodate a size 13ferrule,and is certainly better than increasing the diameter of a station as anafterthoughtto obtain a closer fit with the size 14 ferrule. In the former case yourrisk inducing a sharp weakness at a vulnerable point, while in the lattercase, you may alter the action of the rod in ways you can't evenanticipate. When designing the taper of a rod there are many, many factors to takeinto consideration that are more important than arriving at a "perfect" dimension for a ferrule station. This, as it turns out, is rather far downthe list of things one needs to "get just right" (except, of course, whenone is designing a very small and delicate rod). Cheers, Bill ----------From: Robert Milardo Subject: Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 8:22 AM I have a question about ferrules and rod tapers and am hoping someonecanadd a bit of insight. One of Wayne's rod tapers (a 7' 6", 5wt, pp. 228)calls for a size 14 ferrule and a dimension of .210 at the 45" station,i.e., where the ferrule is mounted. This translates to 13.44/64. Isn'tthat kind of odd? It's too large for a 13 ferrule (i.e., would requiretaking off lots of wood), and too small for a 14 (i.e, filling lots ofdeadspace on the flats). Would the action of this rod change much if I addsome to this station? For instance, adding .004 would yield 13.7/64,whichseems like a better fit. Per B. in his recent article on rod design (inthe BFR) says even such modest changes in dimension affect action. Ontheother hand, shouldn't a taper build in the best possible ferrule fit, across-sectional dimension that requires removing no material from thecenter of the flats, and minimal material elsewhere. How much spacedoesagood epoxy bond require? A fitted, symetrical cross- sectionaldimensionof13.7/64 would leave about .0024 for epoxy. Comments are appreciated.--Bob. Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128------ =_NextPart_000_01BE455C.3F14FB40 Bob,Go ahead withthe = ferrule size if the last station is somewhat over the actual = advice is always sound..You will have space between the flats =and the I.D. of the ferrule, but this will fill nicely with epoxy, = than cutting cane away to accommodate a size 13 ferrule, and is = afterthoughtto obtain a closer fit with the size 14 ferrule. = vulnerable point, while in the latter case, you may alter the action of = consideration that are more important than arriving at a = as it turns out, is rather far down the list of things one needs to = designing a very small and delicate rod).Cheers, = = = =207 581-3128 ------=_NextPart_000_01BE455C.3F14FB40-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 21 15:40:44 1999 Subject: Re: Japanese Block Plane Blade? Terry,I am a tool and die maker building plastic moulds. We are always trying'new' steelsto try to lessen the abrasive wear caused by injecting glass filled plastic.Tool steel has not changed much at all over the years. All it amounts tobasicallyis juggling the percentages of chrome and carbon.0% chrome in a 1% carbon steel makes it water hardening The addition of.05% chromemakes it oil hardening. The addition of 5.3%-12% chrome makes it airhardening (12%being D2 and 3.5 A2)The addition of Chrome in the 5.3-12% range makes the tool steel hotworking, so ifyou plane at 100 miles per hour and your blade becomes very hot it willnot soften.I am talking tool steel here, not the 'hardenable' stainless steel that ismade intokitchen cutlery.The compositions above are tool steels that can be purchased over thecounter fromcompanies like Mcmaster-Carr. W-1, 0-1 D-1, D-2Terry Terry L. Kirkpatrick wrote: I have used the same blades in my 2 Stanley planes for the last 15 yearsand Ihave made a lot of cane shavings. Then I'd suggest you buy a "new" one and see if the blade is the same. Alothas changed in the last 15 years, Terry. I can't find a replacement blade for a 9 1/2 I picked up at a flea Markettoolstall about five years ago. I've got to special order one. Even the Toolshopsdon't keep them in stock any more. Forget about the discount changesand localhardware stores. You're lucky to find a block plane in stock, Let alongonethat's adjustable. I'll bet that if you ever have to replace your blades, you'll have to specialorder them too...(Canadian Dollars to 'merican dollars.) Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 21 15:46:43 1999 QAA118458;Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:46:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Forms =_NextPart_000_01BE455D.89E65000" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE455D.89E65000 Yeah, Stuart, there's something to this, I believe. Building one's ownforms IS something like an indoctrination or apprenticeship, and as such,it's a pretty good test of one's dedication and patience. Maybe I ammaking much out of little, but I think that the desire to obtain quick andwonderful results is anathema to rod-building. It's all the wrong attitude from the get-go. So, I don't know, but it occurs to me that the fella whois happy to make his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." Imean, what's the rush, after all? Cheers, Bill ----------From: Turbotrk@aol.com Subject: Re: FormsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 7:19 AM Tim who talked you out of making the forms. It is not that hard. If youcanmake forms, you can make great rods. It is a practice much like themartialarts. If you can do the execise, you can easily accomplish your goal. Ihave personally learned more by making the forms then I would havelearned inten years of rod building. You learn how to measure, think in very smalldimensions, and work to a specific goal of accuracy. I think this is theindoctranation that all rod builders need to go through to learn the art,notthe science, of rod building. Hate to sound like I know it all. I have not even built a rod yet, but Iamhaving the time of my life making the forms and tools needed for theproject.Just cannot wait till I fish my first hand made rod and catching thatfirstfish. just MHOStuart S. Millervery soon to be a rodmaker------ =_NextPart_000_01BE455D.89E65000 Yeah, Stuart, there's = am making much out of little, but I think that the desire to obtain = occurs to me that the fella who is happy to make his own planing forms = = make forms, you can make great rods. It is a practice much like the = = cannot wait till I fish my first hand made rod and catching that = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE455D.89E65000-- from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Jan 21 16:21:34 1999 Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the same asbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. If wegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we must crawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 21 16:47:38 1999 (modemcable212.174.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? "'rodmakers'" Hi Jim, I was going to buy the Grindstone forms and called them for references.Theymentioned that Ron Barch, the Editor of the Planing Form newsletterboughtone of their forms. I wrote to Ron to ask whether he was satisfied. Hiswords were that I would not be disappointed buying Grindstone's forms. Ididn't buy a set in the end simply because a few of us got together to haveforms made by a local machinist. Perhaps you should contact Ron for further information. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? Has anyone else had experience with Grindstone Angling planing forms?If you have them, are you satisfied? Were they ready to go when yourecieved them? Do they allow for a sufficiently small tip? Thanks for your replies! Jim from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Thu Jan 21 16:51:23 1999 1999 22:50:01 UT 16-1998)) id86256700.007D5123 ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:48:47 -0600 Subject: Re: forms We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can join theclub."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplished whomaynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you choose toliveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, forone. Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the same asbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. If wegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we must crawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Thu Jan 21 16:58:53 1999 Subject: Jasper Thread Jim-Last time I looked Dick Spurr still had some. Try him athttp://www.gorp.com/bamboo.htm or 970-243-8780. Dick only hadcommercial+/-980 yd. spools from the 1940's for about 40.00. Regards Dennis from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Jan 21 17:39:00 1999 "'rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? I have two of these forms and have made several rods on each. Becausetheyare made one at a time by a canadian toolmaker, there are minorvariations from form to form, but nothing that should deter you from getting one. ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: RE: Grindstone Angling planing forms info?Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:37 PM Hi Jim, I was going to buy the Grindstone forms and called them for references.Theymentioned that Ron Barch, the Editor of the Planing Form newsletterboughtone of their forms. I wrote to Ron to ask whether he was satisfied. Hiswords were that I would not be disappointed buying Grindstone's forms. Ididn't buy a set in the end simply because a few of us got together tohaveforms made by a local machinist. Perhaps you should contact Ron for further information. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:29 AM Subject: Grindstone Angling planing forms info? Has anyone else had experience with Grindstone Angling planing forms?If you have them, are you satisfied? Were they ready to go when yourecieved them? Do they allow for a sufficiently small tip? Thanks for your replies! Jim from Anachemrpo@aol.com Thu Jan 21 17:45:25 1999 Subject: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Rodmaker listfellows, Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of us lackinginany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own cold rolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, and hadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do this foryou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither would Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from morten@flash.net Thu Jan 21 17:58:05 1999 Subject: Re: How tight is tight Stuart,I too noticed the indentations the set screws made in my self madeform. I took out all the set screws and filed them flat. This gave amore positive feel when setting the form. I do not tighten the screwsmuch, just snug them up. Actually tightening too much will destort thetaper. RegardsMorten-- 3119 Georgia Pine Dr.Spring, TX 77373(281) 353 5725http://www.flash.net/~morten/index.htm from rclarke@eou.edu Thu Jan 21 18:07:31 1999 Subject: Fw: forms I agree Ed, I know of folks who have both made their own and those thathave bought, and I would consider both to be very good rodmakers. I mademine, but may have a machinist friend of my fathers make a second set forone- piece rods, or for swelled butts, don't know yet. I think you areright in that you can't rush this, but I know how I wished I had those*&%%##@@ forms done sooner than I did. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Subject: Re: formsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:48 PM We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can jointheclub."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplishedwhomaynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you chooseto liveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's thesame asbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just notthesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwe goout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 21 18:49:09 1999 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own cold rolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhad agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither would Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 21 19:07:45 1999 Subject: Blades I have just been looking at the Hock web site and they gave an analysesof their tool steel.I was right, it is good old 0-1 tool steel generally known as groundflat stock and available anywhere.Something to remember with Stanley blades, they are induction hardenedand only the first half inch or so is hardened. If you are using anelderly plane that has been sharpened many times, you could be runninginto the soft portion.It is possible to re- harden the the cutting edge using a gas torch.Most of the problems with plane blades is probably not the steel as mostseem to think, but in the heat treatment.T.Ackland from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jan 21 20:42:02 1999 Subject: Re: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the sameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder Stuart,Having majored in art history in college, I take exception to peoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others. Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced a workof art.Steve from briansr@point-net.com Thu Jan 21 20:44:38 1999 0000 Subject: forms Hi listersI'm the other party along with Russ Lavigne and Richard Nantel who havecollectively had so much fun with machinists.I've decided to mill,stone,andgroove my form.Is it wise to do this part of the job on your own?NO.Is itwise to have a machinist drill & tap the holes? Definately.The milling I did on a drill press(industrial size-father-in-law's),using acutting wheel as the "mill"Slooooowwwwwwly dressing.Both sides took2hrsresult- Both sides finished to a Delorean car finish took 5hrs.I attacked the form this way because I found the method using a Mill filetotally unsatisfactory,I'm just not handy using this tool.Lessons learned-This IS HARD work-takes a long time- Cutting oil gives SWMBO a headache(What doesn't?)-using the stone longtitudinally,up & down the form, works the best.-a cold garage can "heat" up dramatically after 20 minutes of using thestone.-turning an Allen key so far=0.001inCheers Brian from WayneCatt@aol.com Thu Jan 21 23:16:17 1999 Subject: Ferrule Fit Bob - There are 2 schools of thought on how a ferrule should fit. One of theoldermethods of rod design was to create dimensions at the ferrule stationsthatwould be truely round (full size to the ferrule dimension) - I alwaysthoughtthat that might be a compromise of rod action - which leads into thesecondthought - create a rod design and fit the ferrules to it - that is - allowthedimensions of the rod to 'fall where they may' and fit the ferrule asneeded.At times this may mean that the shape won't be completely round butratherjust knocking the corners off. Along this line I also felt that the DevconTwoTon epoxy that I use to mount ferrules was as strong as far ascompressionstrength as the bamboo itself and that there really wasn't a compromise. I suspect that the concerns here would be that of a ferrule 'pullingoff' - from experience and conversation with others the sizing of the flat to flatdimension is not usually the problem. Debris or improper gluing techniqueisusually the culprit. Ferrule pockets should be clean of machining oils andorany flux residue from soldering. Using a noodle of steelwool to clean thepocket is always a good idea - some will also use cleaning agents andotherswill go as far as to sandblast the pocket. But I think that moreimportantlythe gluing technique is the key. Use an excess amount of glue so that allthevoids are filled and when finished seating the ferrule set the rod sectionaside in such a manner that the glue will sag to fill or compress the voids-in other word set the rod section upright and never flat. Wayne from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Jan 21 23:44:01 1999 Subject: Re: forms After much consideration, I must submit that I was a bit zelous in mymostrecent posts. I feel that the form building is an intragle part of rodmakingbut is not the true essence of the art. The point I was making is thatthereis a tremendous amount to be learned by doing so. I am not a master rodmakerand will never will be. I just think in my honost opinion that if you cantake the time and patiance to make the forms, iot teaches you thetechnique If you can work steel, you can acheive great results with bamboo. It is agiven, at least in my book. Stuart S. Miller from RVenneri@aol.com Fri Jan 22 04:33:19 1999 Subject: test test it is quiet from gaff@carol.net Fri Jan 22 06:22:41 1999 Subject: Hello Hey list,A big smiley welcome to Friday, from Bufalo South Carolina.wil from jefffly@choice.net Fri Jan 22 07:53:18 1999 IAA11367; Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, but Ibet they're hell to roll cast! Jeff-----Original Message----- Subject: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslackinginany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own cold rolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequired