If there were a tremendous market for quality production rods, itwouldseem that Orvis, Winston, T&T, etc.. would cut back production ofgraphite and allocate material and personnel to the bamboo productline--they certainly have the capability of doing it more costeffectively than most individuals. One should note that Leonard andPayne were at peak production when there were no alternatives tobamboo. It should also be noted that graphite prices are marketdriven--there is an awful lot of profit built into the current prices. There is always a small segment of the population willing to payextra satisfaction in having been on a waiting list for a year or two. I am shooting from the hip here--I am definitely in the hobby andrelaxation category. I don't do any of my hobbies for profit (in fact,they are clearly for someone else's monetary gain), and have obviouslynot done any market research. I do hope that fishing with bamboobecomes the hip thing to do among NBA players, and that all who dothis IM very HO,Scott Wilson from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sun Jan 10 19:12:09 1999 Subject: Thinning Flex Coat Acetone works (as should MEK.but..haven't tried it) for thinning Flex Coat,just make sure you measure out part A and part B first then add no morethan 10% acetone. Flex coat is touchy stuff..a little too much A or B andit won't cure well. Also big note ... if the stuff's below 72 degrees itwon't mix properly and won't cure . For those "tacky" wraps just recoatwith Flex coat and the top coat will bond to the "tacky" coat and, if wellmeasured, mixed and above 72 degrees, will cure fine. I put both A & Bbottles in a coffee cup filled with hot water while I set up to wrap... afriend puts the bottles in front of a lamp ...if the bottles are just warmto the touch they'll work fine. If you don't want to thin the flex coat you can heat it after applying to the wrap with an alcohol lamp and thestuff will turn to a water like consistancy, then you can pull off theexcess with a brush and the wrap will smooth out as the rod turns. I flexcoat one wrap at a time then heat it, pull off the excess and smooth itout, then flex coat the next wrap. I usually end up mixing two(or three)batches of flex coat to do a rod. If you see a little puff of blue smoke asyou heat with the alcohol lamp you've just vaporized the Flex coat...justadd a little more flex coat and reheat. Acetone sometimes turns the flexcoat white...no problem... the acetone will evaporate and the flex coatwill cure clear. Hope some of this helps Dennis P.S. The guys at Corens Rod & Reel in Chicago do BIG boat rods with 10" ormore of wraps and use flex coat...they heat it with a torch ...wonderousthing to see. from Nodewrrior@aol.com Sun Jan 10 20:32:42 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science (Glass vs. Cane) Another reason I've always considered for glass superceeding cane salesin the50's is the China emabargo. Rob Hoffhines from spazz@choice.net Sun Jan 10 20:37:09 1999 VAA17255 Subject: Coating wraps with Varathane Hi all, How many coats is usually needed? Also, do you sand between coats? 400or 600 grit ok? And finally...wjats the difference between theVarathane 900 and the 90 (which seems to be easier to find...and hasanyone used the 92 which is the exterior/marine poly? thanks Kev from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Jan 10 20:47:26 1999 Grhghlndr@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: BBFR I got mine Friday from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Jan 10 21:26:03 1999 Subject: Re: Coating wraps with Varathane Kevin,I use Varathane 90. It takes at least 5 un-thinned coats. The firsttwo or three coats will soak in and will not require the rod to be turned. Onabout the third or fourth coat, I turn the rod during application. I do notsand between coats. Kurt Loup from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 10 23:26:54 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:26:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Tony, Doesn't knocking them over in the water harden them rather than annealthem?I always thought that with annealing they were plunged into sand to coolvery slowly. George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware When you form cartridges for a wildcater you often need to anneal astandard cartridge before forming the new. To do that I used to sit allthe original std cartridges in water up to the point I wanted to heattreat then hit the necks and shoulders with a gas torch to anneal andknock the case over into the water at the right time. Thewater prevents the rest of the case from annealing as well. To make the dies I used a straight line die that consists of a die made from a piece of steel like an old axle bored out to size and a strongvise that squeezed the case into the die. In the case of ferrules and reelseatparts you'd use a male die also when fressing.If you try this make sure you use case lube or you'll be reaming theferrule out of the die. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Heidt wrote: George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them from brass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with akeywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correctshape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected.Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking intermsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a die set? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jan 10 23:31:01 1999 Subject: Re: U. S. Army Training Manuals Yes, they changed the address a while back. I spent half a night trying torelocate where the Army had put them. And what da ya know I found them.Lotsof good stuff here, although for some reason they wouldn't allow me todownload how to fix an Army Black hawk helicopter :) Army Doctrine and Training Digital Libraryaddress is: http://155.217.58.58 FUNDAMENTALS OF MACHINE TOOLS Manualaddress is: http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Bingo Chris!You are persistent and I am grateful.Steve from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 04:39:13 1999 Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:36:53 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware In the case of the heat treatable ferrous metals yes which is whyoverheating a chisel or plane iron on a grinder can either draw thetemper if it's left to cool slowly or make the edge brittle if it'squenched but copper and all it's alloys as far as I know are the reverse. You need to experiment a bitbecause various alloys take different treatment. In the case of riflecartridges a good brass like NORMA could reload several times and I'dnormaly loose the case before having to do anything, Remington andWinchester were ok too but if I used Isralie military ammo where thecases were hardened to resist deformation in military use you'd find a lotof necks split on the first firing and had to be annealed to preventcertain neck spliting on the next firing, however no matter what I did thecases would split on about the third firing, often at the web, which asI'm sure I don't need to tell you is always good for a laugh.I'd heat the necks in a semi dark room with simmilar lighting to that of aforge until the necks were just going orange then knock them over. I'm no metalurgist so I can't say what varying amounts of tin or zinc willdo with different brasses and bronzes but it's something to experimentwith. Tony On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, irish-george wrote: Tony, Doesn't knocking them over in the water harden them rather than annealthem?I always thought that with annealing they were plunged into sand to coolvery slowly. George Bourke -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 9:10 PMSubject: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware When you form cartridges for a wildcater you often need to anneal astandard cartridge before forming the new. To do that I used to sit allthe original std cartridges in water up to the point I wanted to heattreat then hit the necks and shoulders with a gas torch to anneal andknock the case over into the water at the right time. Thewater prevents the rest of the case from annealing as well. To make the dies I used a straight line die that consists of a die made from a piece of steel like an old axle bored out to size and a strongvise that squeezed the case into the die. In the case of ferrules and reelseatparts you'd use a male die also when fressing.If you try this make sure you use case lube or you'll be reaming theferrule out of the die. Tony On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Heidt wrote: George,I, thanks to the help of George Barns, have been making them frombrass(haven't tried Alum. or NS yet). I found the key is annealing thenpressing in two steps. For the die I use round bar stock, with akeywaycut into it, then insert a piece of square stock milled the correctshape.It realy turned out to be easier than I expected.Regards,Gary H. At 10:12 PM 1/8/99 -0800, irish-george wrote:I, too, have been considering doing the same thing. I'm thinking intermsof downlocking reelseats...how does one make the cap? With a dieset? George Bourke /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from TChafor@wavetech.com Mon Jan 11 06:30:26 1999 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0006D868; Mon, 11 Jan 9906:11:03 -0600 Subject: TEST only Test from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Jan 11 07:51:33 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id WAA02096 for; Mon, 11Jan 1999 22:51:27 +0900 (JST) Subject: Absense To whom referenced to me, Sorry folks, I just returned from Funeral of my father who passed awayJan 9.Let me reply to your posts tomorrow as I am so tired today. I am looking forward to discussing with you again. But it seems to takea little time to read through more than hundred of posts. Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jan 11 08:20:26 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id IAA19195 for; Mon, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idIAA14931 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:20:23 Subject: Re: Prohibitive cost of bamboo from what I've read, Roderick Haig-Brown knew one end of a fly rod from another. Here is what he says in "A Primer of Fly Fishing" (1964): The choice between split cane and fiber glass is more difficult...The first fiber glass rods that appeared on the market immediatelyafter World War II certainly encouraged conservative thinking. Theywere poorly designed and poorly finished, with cheap and flimsy ferrules and reel fittings and improperly spaced guides of poorquality...All that has changed. One can now buy glass rods ofexcellent design and workmanship, well fitted and well finished inevery way. The best of them will do anything a good split-cane rodwill do, and do it really well...The bottom line is this: a good glass flyrod costs only about half as much as a cane rod of similarquality, is likely to be a shade lighter in proportion to its powerand it will stand far more abuse... Before this generation, price and practicality were the dominant considerations for most fly fishers. If someone wants to try to make a living planing cane, now is the time to do it, while significant numbersof people have disposable income, leisure time, and good retirement plans. If the economy ever turns seriously sour you won't sell many high end rods of cane or plastic. Just some more HO's.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jan 11 08:21:21 1999 irish-george@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Re: Turning aluminum reel seat hardware Tony,When copper or brass heat up and are allowed to air cool they usually willharden up, to make these metals have the ability to not harden whenheatedthey must be quenched in water. Also these metals will work harden, soyousometimes have to reheat and requench in water. I use a lot of brass,copperand coin silver in making guns for trigger guards side plates thumb platesetc. and when I am workiong the metals on the anvil I sometimes have toreheatmany times to make my parts. I did an experiment one time to see whathappens when you try and work these metals when they we red hot like youwouldsteel. The result of this experiment was that the parts I tried this onliterally exploded with the hammer blows. Bret from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jan 11 11:40:08 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id LAA24439 for; Mon, (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idLAA31305 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 Subject: Some things that worked Here are some things that worked out for me on my last two rods. Maybe they will be of interest to other beginners. 1. Planing better triangles. When I get lopsided triangles, usually they went wrong at the start(planing that first 60 deg angle), and were hard to correct later.My inital form was based on Wayne's book, which has a 52.5 degree side based on splitting 24 strips from a culm. Usually I don't split 24,and the angle of the split wanders all over the place. So the resultis that the strip doesn't want to sit perfectly in the inital form. My solution was to make a jig to put a 90 degree angle on the strips,then modify the above form increasing the 52.5 angle to 60. The jiglooks like this in cross section: ____A |--- | || | |----- | ||B | | C ||___| |____|OD A is an aluminum angle attached at the lower edge to wood B, opposingwood C and attached at hinge D. The jig is about 18 inched long andsits in a vise. I put the strip in the jig with the enamel against the wood C and the free edge of the angle pressing the pith side. I tightenthe jig in the vise and then plane one 90 degree edge on the strip. If you discover a lopsided triangle when planing in your final form,try this: Flip the strip so the shallow ( from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Mon Jan 11 11:59:41 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:59:27 -0500 Subject: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Army Training Manuals Steve,Try: http://www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Art At 10:06 PM 1/9/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote:I have lost all of my stored list messages.A while back there was a reference to a website for US Army trainingmanuals Steve from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Jan 11 12:03:13 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: Morgan Mill I planed 12 strips last night from split and straightened to perfect 60degree triangles in 2hours, that was 10 minutes a strip. The plane enabled me to take off .010off of both sides,while putting a perfect 60 degree angle on each strip, with each pass.When each strip had theangle on both sides I then removed .002 off of each side with each pass. Imiced the stripsbefore heat treating and the 6 tip strips were identical and the 6 buttstrips were identical.It was pretty impressive and the Morgan plane was a whole lot faster thanwhen I did them withjust a block plane, one side at a time. from thramer@presys.com Mon Jan 11 12:03:57 1999 0000 Subject: Production Rods As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the golden ageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane 'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return. A.J.Thramer from bob.kossler@compaq.com Mon Jan 11 12:51:22 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: test - please disregard Test from trout@ricochet.net Mon Jan 11 13:08:34 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science mac-creator="4D4F5353" I have a mild objection to the term "pseudo science" as it applies tothe technical questions and ideas I've seen on this list. The modelingand testing methods I've read here seem to fit well within the bounds ofaccepted engineering and scientific methodology. I've been paid as ascientist, engineer, artist, and craftsman at different points of mylife and understand the current of antipathy that is often found betweenthe disciplines of art and science, but I feel that "pseudo science"should be a term reserved for medical quacks and new agers (I'veprobably managed to insult someone with that statement). In regards to making cheap bamboo rods, has anyone noticed how expensivegraphite rods have almost completely replaced cheap glass rods. Itcosts about the same amount in hand labor to make a nicely finishedgraphite or glass rod. The graphite blank costs a bit more for thematerials and the extra care in the manufacturing process, but that costis a small percentage of the finished price. Rod company executivesaren't dumb. No matter how well made a glass rod is, it is difficult tosell it for more than a fraction what a graphite rod is sold for. Theperceived value of graphite rods is much more than that of glass rods.You can make a much higher profit margin selling graphite rods insteadof glass. Bamboo rods have a high price point, but the cost of makingthe bamboo blank is considerably higher than that for a graphite rod. Isuspect that anyone who uses modern manufacturing methods to massproduce bamboo rods and markets them well will turn a tidy profitbecause of the high profit margin. Just as the average John Q. Publichas an inflated idea as to the value of Grandpa's old H-I flyrod (i.e.:"I hear they're worth thousands of dollars, these days"), they willbelieve that mass produced bamboo rods are valuable and be willing topay for a bamboo rod sold in the same price range as a modestly pricedgraphite rod (if it is marketed properly and well made). Also, it is possible to make glass and graphite rods at home. I've madeseveral and they weren't bad compared to the commercial product. Therehave been several one-man shops that have specialized in producing wellmade graphite and glass rods where the blanks are made on thecraftsman's mandrels and then straightened and adjusted on an individualbasis. The techniques for straightening and adjusting these rods areclosely guarded by these craftsmen (don't ask me for them, I just knowI've met people who can actually do this kind of work) and not widelyknown to the amateur craftsman. I find it much easier to fine-tune abamboo rod than do the same for a synthetic blank and have the highestregard for those who know how to produce hand-tuned synthetic fly rods.I also believe one of the problems with commercial rods (besides thelack of individual tuning/mass production aspect) is that the tapers arejust too fast. Just because the material makes it possible to producefast, tip action rods shouldn't mean that the manufacturer can't producetapers closer to a Paul H. Young or a Garrison rod. It's like when Iwas a kid in the late 50's and was trying to find a decent glass fly rod(working class families buy working class tackle); almost all the glassrods had huge butt sections and fast actions (and were marketed to thepublic as scientifically designed). Unfortunately, the engineers thatdesigned the rods obviously didn't cast or fish them. What we need aremore engineers and scientists that are part- time artists (or viseversa). Rob Nielsen from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jan 11 13:38:08 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low cost productionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jan 11 15:18:49 1999 PAA00661; Subject: Truncated Ferrules To All, Referencing Wayne's post of the other day on ferrules. I am currentlyplaning a Hardy CC ce France taper. Should I use Super Swiss or aretruncated ferrules adequate for this rod? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from seanmcs@ar.com.au Mon Jan 11 16:31:26 1999 Subject: Young Para 15 taper Dear Rodmaker: Is the taper for the Para 15 taken over varnish or is it on bare cane?Is the assumption of 006 about right for varnish if present? ThanksSean from anglport@con2.com Mon Jan 11 16:31:51 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don't knowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past) thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Jan 11 17:02:35 1999 via smap (4.1) 15:07:51 PST Subject: RE: Truncated Ferrules Steve, I know I'm not answering your question about whether to use truncated or not, but I was looking through the REC catalog and they have Super Swiss truncated ferrules for sale. If you like the Super Swiss style, you could get the truncated version and accomplish both goals. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Mon Jan 11 17:37:06 1999 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about making the rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does.Cheers.Jon McAnulty ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Author: at Internet-Mail All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who is offering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don't know what he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past) that will enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to do this) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in the first place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due to the "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproduction rod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk about a production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand. Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand? >Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we are assuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keeping them from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interested in a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly more at $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphite market. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able to offer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty. Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than a couple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material just out and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can't offer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professional that has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod being made now isn't because no one can supply them, but because there isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume of sales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from spazz@choice.net Mon Jan 11 17:37:44 1999 SAA18360 Subject: the scoop on Varathane [Fwd: 900 finish] boundary="------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF There has been some discussion of Varathane 90 versus 900...here is thescoop right from the lady at Varathane (they also go by Flecto). Ihaven't noticed much "ambering" with the 90 and I know a lot of you useit ...perhaps a shade darker... FYI, Kev --------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF MAA07876 Subject: Re: 900 finish Hi Kevin,Both are oil based product. Product 90 is a slower drying finish and itambers more. Product #900 and #90 are compatible to each other as farashardness and durability once they are cured. I hope this info. is helpful. Diane --------------15C5CDE4C267A5EDF28D47BF-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 17:49:58 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:49:42 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo One thing you need to remember is if the demand increases you'll beflooded with imports to fill the "need" for cheap bamboo rods. There areabout 20 million Indonesians recently unemployed and hungry who'd killforthe opertunity to learn how to make $15 bamboo rods. Don't think thecheaper rods will be inferior either, it's been discussed long and hardhow easy it is to make the splines on a mill and all it'd take is some bigname company to market these things as "made specially in purpose buitsfactorys to the companies' highest standards" etc for the great unwashedto suddenly decide makers have been ripping everyone off all these years.The scary thing is a $15 odd dollar rod made as well as any is entirelypossible. These days X- million aires are selling individual matches onstreet corners. This isn't the 50's with a big world and high import fences any more, it'sbeen said already how cheaply you can pick up bamboo rods if all that'sstopping you is price. Price is actually proctecting the current makers.What brand shoes are you wearing? Who made the PC you're looking at thismessage on? The TV you watch, the fridge you keep the beer cold in?The 50's wont return unless some pretty nasty things happen witheconimiesand then people prob wont be flyfishing all that often. If the future of bamboo rods is mass production most wont get a look in. It could happen though, is your PC Y2K complient? Tony On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales inthefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 11 17:52:19 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:51:56 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art He prob has a contact in Jakarta or Bejing. Tony from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jan 11 17:55:21 1999 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingthe rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:00:49 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:41:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales inthefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl Darryl, The only way to determine what size the "production" bamboo rod marketreallyis would be to do test marketing - advertise some bamboo rods atdifferentprices and see what the price/volume ratio gives in results. I believe that there is a small percentage of the overall rod market, butstill quite large compared to any bamboo rodmaker's output, that wouldbuy adecent bamboo rod if the price was in the $250 - $350 range. Enough tojustifythe attemptmaybe. BUT! To me the real question a bamboo production rod company would need toaskthemselves would be how much competition would I face if I wassuccessful?Because if I needed to invest $100,000+ to startup my business(equipment andsupplies) plus make a quanity of rods to fill the supply chain with product;only to find that 3 or 4 others then entered the market because of mysuccess,could I live with ~25% of this small market? And would my offshore rodwrapping labor company (how else would Ireduce rodprice as easily) attempt to undercut me in my own market at a later date?Forexample, a Chinese company could get the best Tonkin bamboo and planestripsfar cheaper than a USA firm could make milled strips. My $.02, Don Burns from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:01:21 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science In a message dated 1/10/99 7:20:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Scott: There's not a tremendous market for cane rods because they're toodamned> expensive for average working stiffs like me. If, as Terrysuggests, wecould find ways to make quality rods more affordable, the market wouldexpand. I think most average fly fishermen feel cane rods, and most ofwhat Orvis and some of these other pricey outfits sell, is strictly forthe well-to-do. I have a few cane rods in my arsenal because I've foundthem at yard sales and in widows' basements. Much as I would like to, Icould never justify spending $1,000-plus on a bamboo rod. My wifewoulddivorce me. So I, like many others on this list, I'm sure, must live withthe reality that the only way we'll get our hands on a fine cane rod is tostumble on to a good used one for cheap or build our own. I'm notterriblyfamiliar with the history of fly rods, but I would imagine cane wassupplanted by materials like fiberglass because it was cheaper andmoredurable - things average working fly fishermen value. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA Paul, The Korean War embargo of all Chinese products including Tonkin bamboocaneculms ended bamboo rod production in this country - just before the canesupply ran out, Heddon alone was making over 100,000 bamboo rods/year.Fiberglass just happened to be the only thing around to pick up the slack.Have you ever cast an early fiberglass rod? I doubt that you would havesoldall of your cane rods to buy one. You can today buy one of AJ Thramer's single tip impregnated cane rods forunder $500, Terry A's rods (Canadian maker) aren't much more and comewith 2tips. I've seen many modern "unknown" maker rods selling on rod lists inthe$300 range too. Cane rod blanks can be had for $150 - $500 too. And since I've been to Clarks Summit and know how big the place is, ()youcan also easily look up Len Gorney (also of Clarks Summit) - he'll sell youone of his rebuilt cane rods for one heck of a lot less than $1,000. Don BurnsSanta Clarita, CA (just north of LA-LA land) PS --- While you're walking around "uptown" Clarks Summit, say hi to mycousin Bill Botke. from mevans@acxiom.com Mon Jan 11 18:02:29 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Subject: RE: Price of Bamboo Years ago a riverfront hotel in Memphis raised the price of its penthouse from $400 to about$1500 per night to keep noisy frat parties from spoiling their 'ambiance'. Sales went throughthe roof as the wealthy suddenly valued the product. (The same folks whobuy Winston IM6rods?:-)) Maybe this $100 guy will be the Ron Popiel of cane rods ... infomercial onchannel 88 at 3 AM.But a Per Brandin suddenly being devalued by a bamboo pocket fisherman? Then again, Bill Gates made it on Windows - after Steve had already donehis job ... ----------From: Art Port [SMTP:anglport@con2.com]Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup andthere is afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) whoisoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in thepast) thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up"to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait tosee how thisplays out.Art At 02:37 PM 1/11/99 EST, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo salesin thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are duetothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my one and only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips. Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every year or two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon Jan 11 18:28:04 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods A.J.,I certainly agree about the beveler. Another virtue of the beveler isaccess to tapers that a thick metal form can't manage. (No, folks, this isnot bait; think about it. If you want proof, I'll take measurements at 1"intervals from a beveled "production" rod, send you the 5" stations, set upa form and then we'll compare the 1" intervals.)I'm not sure about the Russian tractor analogy. Belarus made someinteresting 4WD tractors.I don't think tho' that the ol-timers would chuckle all that much aboutpeople keeping costs down and undertaking rodmaking as a hobby.Certainly,towards the end, most of the quality production houses were having a hardtime making ends meet; and the tax man cometh...Seriously, the rodmakers that hope to go into it full time today alltell me about the great pensions they will be getting before they make theleap. Will all those full-time cane rodmakers supporting a young family,without a second income, please raise your hands?Best regards,Reed "A.J.Thramer" wrote: As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the golden ageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane 'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return.A.J.Thramer from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon Jan 11 18:35:34 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Art,DO you know of any cane "rodmakers" who have no machinery, norhandtools in theirshop. I know of one, and he can sell for far below most I've seen. Some ofus thinkthere must be an Offshore (read "India") connection; quality is very high,price islow. Hmm, if the cane market was attractive enough, don't you think thatthe laborintensive rodmaking art would move to areas of cheap labor?Best regards,Reed Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and thereis afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" to dothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to seehow thisplays out.Art from Coclapro@aol.com Mon Jan 11 18:56:49 1999 Subject: resorcinol glue would like to use resorcinol glue ,but am having trouble locating asupplier .Any suggestions? Any helpwpould be appreciated . Thanks Dave Anthony from chris@artistree.com Mon Jan 11 19:05:37 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo mac-creator="4D4F5353" My thoughts exactly. Chris Wohlford SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less"depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingtherods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It willbe interesting to see what he does. from anglport@con2.com Mon Jan 11 19:59:15 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Just found this on the newsgroups: "Following are the cheapest direct raw material prices I can find so far. Per Fly Rod Manufacturing Costs TwoPc Three Pc TONKIN CANE BAMBOO $ 3.00SUPREME QUALITY Portugal Cork $ 8.25THREADS/Brown with Yellow Trim $ 0.069-11 Guides Unknown YetNickel Silver Ferrules Unknown Yet make ourown? Reel Seat/Down Lock/Maples Unknown YetPlastic Rod Sock $ 0.10Linseed Oil Finish/Hand Rubbed $ 0.07Epoxies For Handle Area & Guide Wraps $ 0.33Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.$50.00 $75.00 (or less)" It didn't cut-and-paste real well but you can decipher it well enough tosee what Gehrke thinks he's going to lay out per rod. If he's getting cane our own vaseline)!Art from chris@artistree.com Mon Jan 11 20:05:03 1999 Subject: BASTARD BAMBOO Mfg Costs Ohhh...this is getting scary. Thought I forward this message from thatweird thread they got going on there. Chris Wohlford "Mr. G" wrote: Following are the cheapest direct raw material prices I can find so far. Per Fly Rod Manufacturing Costs TwoPc Three Pc TONKIN CANE BAMBOO $ 3.00SUPREME QUALITY Portugal Cork $ 8.25THREADS/Brown with Yellow Trim $ 0.069- 11 Guides UnknownYetNickel Silver Ferrules UnknownYet make our own?Reel Seat/Down Lock/Maples Unknown YetPlastic Rod Sock $ 0.10Linseed Oil Finish/Hand Rubbed $ 0.07Epoxies For Handle Area & Guide Wraps $ 0.33Each Rod Section Costs(Estimate) $25 ea.$50.00 $75.00 (or less) Running Sub Total$61.81 $86.81 --Copyright by George Gehrke 1999All Rights ReservedVisit: http://www.gink.com from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Jan 11 20:30:29 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5m.R) for ; Mon, 11 Jan1999 21:30:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Hey folks: I don't believe that we need to be worried about Mr.. Gehrke. I follow theflyfishing and flytying newsgroup pretty much, and he is just a bunch ofhotair. About a year or so ago he claimed he could produce a quality fly reel given (just like what's going on there now), and nothing ever came of it. I volunteered on the newsgroup to give him the contact information forWright/MacGill's old production stuff and about 5,000 cane blanks thatRick's Rod's have in Denver, but he never responded, so he is just full ofshit. He thrives on b/s just like this and all the folks on ROFF are feeding hisego right now. just by .02 worth Joe Byrd -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 orless"depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingtherods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. Itwillbe interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm thangood to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Jan 11 20:43:19 1999 Subject: Fwd: Price of Bamboo boundary="part0_916108790_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_916108790_boundary --part0_916108790_boundary Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I've been to a lot of fly fishing shows and noticed that if there are two cane rod builders in the show, one is selling his rods Both rods look the same, cast the same, etc. The guy that is Selling his rods for $1,000.00 each, will sell more rods. It happens Every time. When the price is that low, the customer feels that It can't be as good as the $1,000.00 rod. Even though it IS as Good and he buys the more expensive one. I don't think people Will buy the lower priced rods if you mass produce them. I still think they will pay the higher price and get " The Better One" Dave L. --part0_916108790_boundary-- from WmFMack@aol.com Mon Jan 11 22:02:41 1999 SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years ago anddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when the ladyaskedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well they lookedatme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I get achuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'd putthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? from WmFMack@aol.com Mon Jan 11 22:39:58 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 11 23:25:22 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AD2A4620296; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:27:06 MST Subject: Re: Morgan Mill At 10:03 AM 1/11/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:I planed 12 strips last night from split and straightened to perfect 60degree triangles in 2 hours, that was 10 minutes a strip. The plane enabledme to take off .010 off of both sides, while putting a perfect 60 degreeangle on each strip, with each pass. When each strip had the angle on bothsides I then removed .002 off of each side with each pass. I miced thestrips before heat treating and the 6 tip strips were identical and the 6butt strips were identical. It was pretty impressive and the Morgan planewas a whole lot faster than when I did them with just a block plane, oneside at a time. Patrick;Please, no more gloating over us poor folk that can't afford one, I'mjealous enough as it is. John from channer@hubwest.com Mon Jan 11 23:31:16 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AE8D26F01E6; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:33:01 MST Subject: Leonard Rods Guys;If there are any Leonard experts out there, please contact me off list, afriend of mine brought me a 50df, 8' 3pc, that he wants me to sell for himand I need some info about it in order to get him a fair price. ThanksJohn from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 00:31:42 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:30:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I've seen the thread, too. It looks to me like a joke (he, and othersalways seem to treat it as one). George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Art Port wrote: All,I have been reading the Rec.Outdoors.Flyfishing newsgroup and there is afellow who purports to be Geo Gehrke (of Gink fame, I presume) who isoffering anyone who will promise to buy one a $100 cane rod!!!!I don'tknowwhat he has in mind (but he's certainly been a curmudgeon in the past)thatwill enable him to accomplish this feat( he's talking of "tooling up" todothis) but it's certainly something to contemplate!Several fellows have already promised to buy---can't wait to see howthisplays out.Art He prob has a contact in Jakarta or Bejing. Tony from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 00:57:58 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:57:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Or better yet: more engineers who are fisherman! George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pseudo Science I also believe one of the problems with commercial rods (besides thelack of individual tuning/mass production aspect) is that the tapers arejust too fast. Just because the material makes it possible to producefast, tip action rods shouldn't mean that the manufacturer can't producetapers closer to a Paul H. Young or a Garrison rod. It's like when Iwas a kid in the late 50's and was trying to find a decent glass fly rod(working class families buy working class tackle); almost all the glassrods had huge butt sections and fast actions (and were marketed to thepublic as scientifically designed). Unfortunately, the engineers thatdesigned the rods obviously didn't cast or fish them. What we need aremore engineers and scientists that are part- time artists (or viseversa). Rob Nielsen from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 12 01:20:03 1999 (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:19:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. The Chinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and even increase)theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless of where itisdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain discipline tothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doubling productiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as you mightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shut downfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long before othercountries are in similar situations.) George-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:41:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,SalarFly@aol.comwrites: Darryl, The only way to determine what size the "production" bamboo rod marketreallyis would be to do test marketing - advertise some bamboo rods atdifferentprices and see what the price/volume ratio gives in results. I believe that there is a small percentage of the overall rod market, butstill quite large compared to any bamboo rodmaker's output, that wouldbuyadecent bamboo rod if the price was in the $250 - $350 range. Enough tojustifythe attemptmaybe. BUT! To me the real question a bamboo production rod company would need toaskthemselves would be how much competition would I face if I wassuccessful?Because if I needed to invest $100,000+ to startup my business(equipmentandsupplies) plus make a quanity of rods to fill the supply chain withproduct;only to find that 3 or 4 others then entered the market because of mysuccess,could I live with ~25% of this small market? And would my offshore rodwrapping labor company (how else would Ireducerodprice as easily) attempt to undercut me in my own market at a laterdate?Forexample, a Chinese company could get the best Tonkin bamboo and planestripsfar cheaper than a USA firm could make milled strips. My $.02, Don Burns from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 12 05:46:24 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 05:48:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I have not seen mine, I guess the mule team delivering them to Arkansashas not made it yet.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 12 06:19:38 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 06:21:15 -0600 Subject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Good thinking Max . I found a cure for the problem, I don't use colorpreserverany more.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Masahiro Satoh wrote: Dear Paul and Tony, The effect of getting blotchy color on wraps is because of the invasionofthinned poly or thinned epoxy into threads. To my experience, it doesn'tmatter whether thread color is in lighter or darker. When a volatilethinned material gets into the fibers of wrapping thread, it makes thewraps blotchy. I was successful on some wraps and not on the others. I pseudo scienced (I decided to use this word for the fact which yet to bemade sure) the way to correct this effects. Since blotchy color happens when thinned material gets into the fibersofthread, we should consider the way which prevent it to happen. 1. To use so called thread sealer, (or called as color preserver):Flex Coat is the name of a product which is water based, sold by FlexCoat Company, Inc., P.O. Box 190,Driftwood, Texas. (this is not epoxy) This can be thinned by water and the brush used also can be cleanedout from here we have to pseudo-science the causes and the effects.Think about the gap between wrap threads and bamboo surface, thegapbetween threads, the gapamong the fibers of a thread. There mostly are foot of guidesbetweenthread layer and surface of thesection.So when applying this, we have to thoroughly apply Flex Coat so thattheFlex Coatfluid can seal the entire length and entire surface of the thread.It must get into the gap between threads and sectionsurface, into the gap between threads and into the gap among fibers ofathread, when applied after wrapis made on sections.Without this consideration, later application of epoxy or poly will getinto those gaps and finally get intothe fibers of the thread and we have blotchy color. When applying over the wraps, it is rather difficult to make sureentiregaps or surface were sealed or notsince some portions are hidden backside or in between the threadsthemselves.So, the way to be experimented is that we should apply Flex Coat onthelength of a thread beforeusing the thread on the rod section. If we apply this sealer while athread is left entire surface open to theair, we do not need to think about the hidden parts of the thread couldbe completely sealed or not.I am thinking to try this on next occasion. The recommended usage of Flex Coat says; "Apply SATURATING Coat towrrappings" 2. Weakening the bond the wraps to the rod blank This might not need to think about too much, I guess.If someone want to make sure that the guides' feets are surely bonded onrodblank, there may be another way to make it sure instead of relying it onwrapping threads. Why not bond the guides' feets on the rod surfacedirectly and after it we can wrap a thread. If the above mentionedpseudoscience is get effective, the application of epoxy on to the entirelysealedthread and into all kinds of gaps will bond the sealed thread and rodblanktogether. So, applying epoxy after sealer may work when epoxy isappliedappropriately. It should get into the gap between threads and rodsurfaceespecially to tightly bond the guides on the rod. Max P.S.When applying epoxy next to Flex Coat, epoxy also becomes the causes ofgetting blotchy color if it gets into the gaps of fibers of a thread whenFlex Coat does not thoroughly seal the entire surface of a thread. -----Original Message-----From: Paul Lyon Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:44 AMSubject: Re: What do you use on wraps? (Was: pvc dip tube) Tony:I was under the impression color preserver was especially to preventlighter-coloredthread from darkening when applying finish to wraps. I used it once anditdarkenedthe thread just as much as the Flex Coat, so I figure what's the point. Ialso havebeen told it diminishes the ability of the finish to bond the wraps to therod blank,so that's also something to consider. Has anybody had any luck withusingcolorpreserver to preserve the color of light-colored thread? Paul Tony Spezio wrote: As long as color preserver is mentioned here I have a few comments.I have not had much luck with it. The first time I used it asrecommendedI endedup with blotchy wraps. I then tried thinning it and applying severalthin coatswith the final coat un thinned. It looked good when finished but in ayears time ittoo looks blotchy, made it a point to be sure that the Flex Coat sealedthe entireguide wrap. This happened with several rods. I would like anycomments ifit isrelated to this list. These wraps were not on Bamboo. Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/6/99 3:35:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,paullyon@epix.netwrites: Use of epoxy to coat the silk wraps on a bamboo rod is unusual. I don't think it's that unusual, but to tell you the truth, I neverreallyasked. How about it everyone? What do you use? I use Flexcoat (low build) unless specifically asked to use varnish. Darryl Hi, I am using both of Flex Coat and Crystal Coat Epoxy (1(resin):1(catalyst):4(thinner)) before finishing with thepolyurethanecoat on the wraps. I understand so far the reason of epoxy is to coat over Flex Coat topreventthe final poly fluid from geting in between the threads and frommaking a wrap looks stripe of dark color. Even when I use colorreserver (Flex Coat), sometimes polyurethane will get into the wrapthread from the gap which is made by the guide leg. (Or, sometimes, I will not dare to use color reserver nor epoxy whenIwant to make wrap thread looks transparent by the effect ofpolyurethane.) Max--Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from frankc@webspan.net Tue Jan 12 06:26:15 1999 SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey B4339139419E7947232E5334" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- B4339139419E7947232E5334 WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years agoanddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when thelady askedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well theylooked atme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I getachuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'dputthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? I got 2 sets of 4.Frank --------------B4339139419E7947232E5334 begin: vcardfn: FRANKn: ;FRANKemail;internet: frankc@webspan.net end: vcard --------------B4339139419E7947232E5334-- from gaff@carol.net Tue Jan 12 06:47:01 1999 Subject: purchase bamboo hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil from harry37@epix.net Tue Jan 12 06:52:28 1999 SMTP id HAA07572; SalarFly@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: The Annual Christmas Gift Survey WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Ah--the wooden fish on a stringer. I received some several years agoanddraped them on the gunwale of a kayak I was building in my garage. Acouplewas jogging by and stopped in to chat about the boat, and when the ladyaskedabout the meaning of the fish I answered that it was a fetish (meaningsort ofa Native American thing to make it a good fishing boat). Well theylooked atme mighty odd and backed out real quick! Every time I see them I get achuckle -- next time I think I'll just say, "I dunno, just thought I'd putthem there." Has anyone gotten the fly in a glass ball for the tree? Get them? I sold a dozen of them! Greg from waverdr@bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 12 06:53:55 1999 Subject: remove Hi,I would like to be taken off this message list/board. Basically I dontwant to get 40 messages a day in me email... Is this where I need towrite to be removed? If not please tell me what I need to do, alsoplease give me you web page address. Thanks,John from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jan 12 07:01:31 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo In a message dated 1/11/99 11:19:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, irish- george@worldnet.att.net writes: Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. The Chinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and even increase)theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless of whereit isdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain disciplinetothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doubling productiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as youmightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shut downfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long beforeothercountries are in similar situations.) George George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look for welleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 08:20:36 1999 via NOTES ," - (052)Canerods(a)aol.com" Subject: Re: Pseudo Science I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybody canafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in my lifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes all ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all of thededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those among usthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Tue Jan 12 09:17:42 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! As I said at the start, What you do with your money is your own business,but really I thought this sought of snobbery died with the art of the "DRAYFLAY" being the only acceptable way to fish, back in the victorian age! Peter. At 08:12 12/01/99 -0600, you wrote:I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybody canafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in mylifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes all ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all ofthededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those amongusthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Jan 12 10:02:24 1999 1999 16:01:08 UT 1998)) id862566F7.00567E9D ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:44:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Thanks Peter. I would echo your comments. I too am saddened by theelitismI see around me within the fly fishing world. I'm wondering, though, canweget back to discussions on the hows, whys, and wherefores of rodmaking?Certainly we all have our individual reasons for doing what we do, hobby,career, and otherwise. It is not up to us to project our values on others,anymore than for us to judge others' values. I certainly don't think thislist is the place for it. Best regards,-Ed Estlow peter@chickerell.u-net.com on 01/12/99 09:30:05 AM Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! As I said at the start, What you do with your money is your own business,but really I thought this sought of snobbery died with the art of the "DRAYFLAY" being the only acceptable way to fish, back in the victorian age! Peter. At 08:12 12/01/99 -0600, you wrote:I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: I like the fact that bamboo rods are really expensive and not everybodycanafford them. I think it adds to the exclusiveness that I (and many of myflyfishing friends) enjoy as a flyfishers. If anyone wants to save theworldthere are more relevant causes than bringing bamboo to the masses in thenewmillenium. I can't really afford it either...but it's the one thing in mylifeI pursue beyond my means simply because it's so damn neat...and rare. Thelastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make it affordableforthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay a grandforit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makes allofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by all ofthededicated rodmakers out there. As far as methodology... I find it refreshing that there are those amongusthat have the motivation to explore and hyper analyze their craft...in thelongrun it benefits us all, even if it doesn't directly affect our personalpreferance. Somebody at one time discovered the feature or aspect of arodthat appeals to each and every one of us. sorry for rambling, Kev from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Jan 12 10:02:28 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:02:20 -0500 " - (052)rodmakers(a)mail.wustl.edu"," - (052)Canerods(a)aol.com" Subject: RE: Pseudo Science You are out of line. One of the minor, unexpected pleasures Iexperienced when I discovered fly fishing a few too-short years ago wasthe warmth with I was welcomed into the club by most of those I met whohad been fortunate enough to have grown up with the sport. Morerecently, I discovered the downside of this clubbiness, which is anarrow-minded intolerance and elitism. There are those of us who don'thave the means to boost your friends' economy. That is one reason wegot into this - for the pleasure of fishing with a live, hand-craftedtool, we must make it ourselves. Some of us may object to being called"Slack jawed yokels" merely because we share neither your disposableincome nor your unfortunately trammeled predilections. For yourinformation, bait fishing is a perfectly enjoyable and honorablepastime. And catfish are good eating. -----Original Message-----From: Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com [SMTP:Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com]Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:13 AM (052)Canerods(a)aol.comSubject: Re: Pseudo Science I'm kinda new and I may be out of line here...but here goes: The lastthing I want to see is every slack jawed yokel chunking stink bait atcatfishwith a decent split cane rod. Likewise I don't want to make itaffordable forthe 'two time a year' fisherman to buy a cane rod. Let him pay agrand forit...it's good for my friends' economy. If everyone has one, it makesall ofour bamboo rod less special and it devalues the efforts put in by allof thededicated rodmakers out there. Kev from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 10:02:34 1999 via NOTES Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Wow...controversy...I guess maybe I am a little snobbish about my passion ...however, Peter,I don't spend over $1000 on bamboo rods. but I will spend a few hundredona classic and scores of hours restoring it. When I achieve my goal ofcrafting split cane rods from scratch...who knows? I'd sell a rod forthecost of materials if I were absolutely sure the person would appreciatetherod properly. The expense is relatively nominal anyway. If someone makes30,000 a year ($2500 a month), $1000 is 1/5 of what is the expected costwhentheybuy and engagement ring!!!! Which is the better investment??!! Also...aboutpeople bemoaning $1000 expense...ON E-MAIL!!!!...How much was yourcomputer?$1000? $2000? Where will it be in 50 years? $1000 for a bamboo rod ischeap!If you don't think it's worth it...that's your opinion...a lot of people do.That's why we live in a day where many talented rod crafters can afford tomake their beautiful rods. I guess if Bentleys were $20,000 and everyone drove onethey would still have the same allure, no? The expense of a fine rod does not make it better, nor does it necessarilyaid the person wielding it, it may (and I stress may) reflect the timeand effort put in by a craftsman to craft or restore the rod.If you can find quality for $200..more power to you. I haven't. Oh yeah...trout don't wear socks. Kevin "Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over a thousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. The idea that the high price of a good rod adds to the pleasure of fishingis nonsense. I'm sure most of us who like Bamboo rods like them becauseoftheir aestheics, the way they fish, the fact that they come from a livingentity and are organic, not cold and soulless as Glass and Carbon are.Money should not even come into the equation of it. I'm sure many of uswould like to pay less for them if we could. Everyone admires a reallywellmade rod, but they are judged on the craftsmanship. people don't like themon the grounds that they are purely expensive alone, but because a rod iswell made. What I really object to is the idea that you want to exclude others fromthe delights of fly fishing with cane by making the price of rods tooexpensive. The general idea, I thought was to keep this fine art alive -NOT KILL IT OFF!!! from Kevin.Burkhardt@ipaper.com Tue Jan 12 10:21:39 1999 via NOTES Subject: Pseudo Science..a final thought I apologize for ruffling feathers...I agree though..I want to get back todiscussions regarding crafting, I'll abandon this thread with a finalcommentand thought. First...I am not wealthy...I do not have a lot of nice things...Iwork 40 to 50 hours a week in the midwest...I am, in fact, a normalworkingstiff. Flyfishing is the one thing I will spend an inordinate amount of myincome on because it brings me so much pleasure...bamboo adds to that. If everyone was a flyfisherman...the streams would be clogged and thetroutwould be gone. We would all lose. The expense associated is a blessing tothose of us who appreciate a tranquilday on the stream by limiting the sheer numbers of participants. Again sorry for the uproar, I would no doubt love to fish with anyone onthislist, and I look forward to exchanging ideas about our craft. sincerely Kev from LUU@NMDHST.CC.NIH.GOV Tue Jan 12 10:33:07 1999 Subject: Saturday Donuts?. Hello All,Wayne was talking about having coffee, this Saturday, for the listmembersthat will attend the fly fishing show in College Park MD. What is coffewithout donuts?. So I'd volunteered to bring donuts to the show. Anyspecial donuts requests from those who will stop by?. PLease let meknowand I will do my best to accomodate you. Thanks.Andy from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 12 10:48:14 1999 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil Wil,try the following site for more information than you thought you wouldeverneed:http://home1.gte.net/JFoster/Regards,Steve from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue Jan 12 11:09:48 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:47:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine Me either....but they cashed my check so it must be in the mail. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Flyrod Magazine I have not seen mine, I guess the mule team delivering them to Arkansashas not made it yet.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com WmFMack@aol.com wrote: Mine arrived by mail today (Vol. 1 #4 July/Aug 1998) from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Tue Jan 12 11:09:58 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:57:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Thanks for the back up...there is the whole other issue of lifetimeunconditional warranties! Quick poll,,,how many bamboo rod makersprofessional/amateur/hobbiest offer one. Not me. I wish I could afford tofix a tip for free when Joe DumbA#% uses his rod for a wading stick. Ibelieve the reality is the market is a niche one at the very best. I wouldhave to see hard market research to believe for a second the demandexists Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo I think a lot of us are missing a huge aspect driving bamboo sales in thefirst place: they are expensive and everyone doesn't have them! So if I'm reading you right you feel the sales of bamboo rods are due tothe "bamboo mystique" and if that was gone - due to a low costproductionrod - sales would fall off? If that is what you are trying to say, I agree.One thing that has been bothering me about all this talk abouta production bamboo rod, and that is thinking back to my oneand only business class in college, - Supply and Demand.Someone may be able to supply them, but what's the demand?Our view of bamboo rods is slanted. We like them, and we areassuming everyone else wants one, it's just the price keepingthem from buying one. Starting with the flyfishers out there that might be interestedin a cane rod, how many are likely to buy one? Certainly moreat $500 than at $2000, but actually how many? Realisticallywe can't think we will get a significant portion of the graphitemarket. I don't think any cane rod manufacturer will be able tooffer a lifetime no questions asked free replacement warranty.Also, what is it that makes graphite users buy more than acouple rods? Mostly it's the new gazillion modulus material justout and made into the next generation fly rod. Bamboo can'toffer that. Bamboo won't appeal to the harried professionalthat has one week a year to get out on the stream and rip lips.Sure he may buy one, but he isn't going to buy one every yearor two as he does with graphite rods. I think the reason there isn't a production bamboo rod beingmade now isn't because no one can supply them, but becausethere isn't the sustainable demand for them. Low volume ofsales means you have to charge a high price per unit. Darryl from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Jan 12 11:12:59 1999 0600 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo Wil,In buying bamboo, our only option for years was Charles H. Demarest, Inc.You can contact Harold and Eileen Demarest at DEMARALON@aol.com. TheDemarest's are fine folks who have worked hard to keep a good supply ofcaneflowing. I highly reccomend them. I promise you won't go wrong indealingwith the scrupulously honest Demarest family.A relative newcomer to the Tonkin Cane market is Andy Royer ofBambooHardwoods. He can be contacted at andy@w-link.net Though I haven't usedanyof his cane, I have seen some and it is nice. I think Russ Gooding is sellingquantities of less than a bale for Andy. Russ can be reached through hiswebsite, http://www.goldenwitch.com/Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Steven Weiss wrote: hey guts,i need advice on where to buy cane, what grade,and what size to buy.this is my first attempt at rod building, so please be gentle.after the cane arrives i'll be ask ing how to split it.thank for helping a newbe.wil Wil,try the following site for more information than you thought you wouldeverneed:http://home1.gte.net/JFoster/Regards,Steve from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 12 11:27:56 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science..a final thought Living in New Mexico has enabled me to observe how popular flyfishinghas become every time I go to the San Juan. Certainly expense is not animportant concern for the flyfishers I see there.Many have first-rate, expensive gear. Many others have cheapo stufffromtheir waders to their rods (I do wish that they would stop using thosewovenNylon monofilament nets).IMHO, much of the explosion of interest in the sport has come as aresult of synthetics--Plastic everything that reduces the amount of skillrequired as well as the amount of care of equipment that used to berequired. We who use bamboo also love our nylon leaders, neoprene &breathable waders, poly longjohns and so on. Technology has us all by thenose (I just upgraded this computer).I use bamboo because it's gratifying to do so for many reasons,including making my own rods.Just as some people flyfish to catch more big fish faster, some peoplemake rods to make money, the more they can make quicker, the better itis.Others, like me, flyfish for the esthetics. I like tough days when Ihave to work hard for a few (large or small) fish. I like to try to learndifficult skills that require discipline, thought and perseverance.Sometimes I am a snob, but most of the time not. I do spend lots of timeguiding and teaching beginners (to pay for my rodmaking and fishingstuff),a few of whom are willing to "pay their dues" and don't want or needinstantgratification.Steve from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Jan 12 12:33:07 1999 Subject: Thinning Flexcoat I thin regular Flex Coat with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) available fromhardware stores. It's supposed to be nasty stuff from a carsinogenic pointofview, so I keep it stored out in the garage. I mix large quantities of FlexCoat, which is wasteful, but it avoids the problem of mixing unequalratios.My ratios are 1 tsp resin: 1 tsp hardener: 1/4 tsp MEK. I've heard of folksusing acetone with good results, but MEK seems to work well for me so Ihaven't tried it. When you thin like this, the drying time is increaseddramatically. I rotate for 24 hours, although 12-16 would probably do it,anddon't touch the rod for at least 3 days after that. --Rich from wgray@uidaho.edu Tue Jan 12 13:05:47 1999 Subject: Re: Pseudo Science Peter,If you want to see this in action plan a trip to Sun Valley next July. Silver creek is loaded with millionaires who just spent several grand at the SV outfitter on everything they need for a few days on the stream, following their paid guide around to show them where the fish are. They used to make me mad but anymore I just feel sorry for them. A few may genuinly like the sport but most are just out dropping $'s on another "experience" to stick in the photo album or talk up at the country club. Wilson Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:17:21 +0000 From: Peter McLeod Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Pseudo Science Kev, I'm sorry to take issue, but RUBBISH! If you want to spend over athousandpounds or dollars on a rod because it give you pleasure fine thats youraffair, but more fool you. The Trout will be laughing in their socks!! andan expensive rod wont make you a better fisherman. from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Tue Jan 12 13:22:22 1999 Subject: Suppliers in/around Miami? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040 Am I right in thinking that as there has been no response that the Miami =area is a bit of a wasteland when it comes to component suppliers?Copy of MSG sent 10.1.99I will be in the Miami area and possibly Sarasota (Miami boat show and =to see some customers) in mid Feb. Are there any good shops that are =worth visiting in the area for supplies of silks, reel seats etc - =things that'll fit in a suitcase anyway! If there's any www's then let =me know and I'll chase it down that wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040 Am I right in thinking that as there has been no = suppliers?Copy ofMSG = 10.1.99I will be in the Miami area and = in = wayThanks in advance.Tim. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE3E60.B4CF0040-- from anglport@con2.com Tue Jan 12 13:34:00 1999 Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat I notice that we're all aware that MEK is a carcinogen but I've never seenanyone mention what I read about it a couple of years back. I only noticedbecause my father-in-law could be affected and I wanted to make sure heheard. MEK should not be used by people with a history of HEART DISEASE.Itapparently can cause coronary problems and attacks in those victims. Ifyouhave heart disease, please look into this before you use the stuff.Art At 01:32 PM 1/12/99 EST, RMargiotta@aol.com wrote:I thin regular Flex Coat with methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) available fromhardware stores. It's supposed to be nasty stuff from a carsinogenicpoint ofview, so I keep it stored out in the garage. I mix large quantities of FlexCoat, which is wasteful, but it avoids the problem of mixing unequalratios.My ratios are 1 tsp resin: 1 tsp hardener: 1/4 tsp MEK. I've heard of folksusing acetone with good results, but MEK seems to work well for me so Ihaven't tried it. When you thin like this, the drying time is increaseddramatically. I rotate for 24 hours, although 12-16 would probably do it,anddon't touch the rod for at least 3 days after that. --Rich from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Tue Jan 12 13:57:57 1999 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re[4]: Price of Bamboo Bravo! In fact, your comment below was my first thought when I readof this scheme.Jon ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Re[2]: Price of Bamboo Author: at Internet-Mail Yes, this is the George Gehrke. His current offer is "$300.00 or less" depending on his costs. He seems to know very little about makingthe rods but is learning and may put out some product, maybe not. It will be interesting to see what he does. Well, I hope he chooses a good taper, or he will do more harm than good to the reputation of bamboo rods. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jan 12 15:16:07 1999 Subject: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This subject got my interest, so I looked at the newsgroup where all this was happening. I think I understand what Mr. Gink is doing. He is taking the costof materials and marking it up 100%. This is fine for a non laborintensive operation like my other hobby, jewelry making. In fact,this is the standard practice. I can usually make a ring or pendant in an hour or two, so a 100% markup over raw material cost is fine.Rod making on the other hand involves much more labor. For me about 40 hours. I don't have any desire to make a rod for 2 or 3 dollars an hour. And like I said before - without a good taper....... Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 16:24:53 1999 Subject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Max,you got that all wrong. I said that a generation ago Payne was hardly abletosupport himself by Rod making. Meaning that what many see as thegreatest rodmaker the US had ever produced could not make a living.Rod making to me is a very personal thing . It is the only part of my lifewhereI have to please no one. I build what I like in the manner that suites me.Rod making is a craft that has to be paid for in sweat, you cannot hothouseexperience. All of the fun of rod making is in the learning. Once you canbuilda rod without thinking, it becomes boring.A guy last week on the list expected someone to give him an engineeringapprenticeship via e-mail. It was too difficult for him to visit the locallibrary, easier to get a sucker to spend all night typing!There are enough books on rod building out there to get a newbie startedandhopefully he develops his own personal style.There is a lot of bad information on this list, not intentionally bad, butbadnone the less.Some of the guys do not have the patience to give a process or technique achance and give up on it before they are really familiar with it. They thentellthe list that 'it is not recommended' You have to try things out yourself.If this list was around when I got started, I would have never made a rod.Toomany alternatives! I built exactly to Garrisons book and developed fromthere. Idid not bother with the math, the tapers were there. After building a fewrods Idecided that they did not suit me and the math was wrong for what Ithought acane rod should do.I personally find all the science a joke but some guys are really into it,thisis how it should be. We should be as different as our rods(hopefully)TerryMasahiro Satoh wrote: Terry, I do not think it's any crying bloody shame for those who only made oneorten rods with enough support of others. This list is such a place and it'sa great benefit of joining. You are also a member of this list. Thinkabout why you are here. I respect the old day rod makers made considerable efforts themselvesandsome of us also would like to progress in a smilar fashion for betterrodsand the better ways of rod making by discussing, doing trial and error orwhat you call, pseudo sciencing. You must also experienced a considerable rod making efforts. I respecttheexperienced people here.I would like to know your ways of doing very much. Please be a goodteacherto us. Sincerely,Max -----Original Message-----From: Terence Ackland Cc: maxs@geocities.co.jp ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:42 AMSubject: Re: Spline-Strength of bamboo strips - Moso Bamboo Ed and Jim Payne made perhaps 20,000 rods between them using nomore than acraftsmans intuition.A generation ago Jim Payne could hardly support himself, yet here wehaverodmakers with perhaps 10 rods under their belts having all theanswers.It is a crying bloody shame!BambooRods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/2/99 12:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,hexagon@odyssee.net writes: thepseudo science.I know that many on the list enjoy theorizing and quantifyingpersonalpreferences. >> Terry,We should be thankful that some do think of "theorizing" as it isthebase that those of us that simply "make" rods exist. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 12 17:26:08 1999 RMargiotta@aol.com,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Thinning Flexcoat Another aside of these thinners is kidney problems from prolonged use. Alsothe fumes can make you very very high.Bret from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 17:29:41 1999 Subject: Mass Market Cane Just got Cabela's 99 Fly Fishing catalog and found somethinginteresting.Though they aren't selling cane blanks anymore,they are nowselling Douglas Kulick's Kane Klassics Rods.They list 6 different rodsaround the $1000 price range with all the rods carring a lifetimewarranty.Should be interesting to see how well they are recieved in thismarket.They gave him display, including a full color photo of Douglas handplaning a rod. Charlie from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 12 17:36:45 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Thinning Flexcoat MEK is good old laquer thinner but I am wondering if this can also be cutwithnaptha? As with any thinner whether it be MEK ,Xylol or even mineral spirits allarenasty things and should be treated with respect. Any rags you guys usewiththis stuff should be allowed to air dry layed out over something or storedina metal container full of water. Another thing too guys some of thesehave avery low flash point and the fumes can be ignited by your furnace kickingonor even an electrical switch being thrown ( lathe). I don't want to scareyouguys but be careful I know people who have been killed using thesethinners intheir basements BOOOOM.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 17:53:21 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods Reed,I am not really convinced that you can copy a taper from the masters andconvert it to a 5in station without there being a noticable difference intheaction.All my tapers were designed on the 5 in station and now I have built abevellerthat can use much finer increments I am not sure just what to do.To me, a rodmaker is a guy who can support himself and his family withhisrodmaking endevours, without any other financial assistance.I guess we are all just dreamers?Terry reed wrote: A.J.,I certainly agree about the beveler. Another virtue of the beveler isaccess to tapers that a thick metal form can't manage. (No, folks, this isnot bait; think about it. If you want proof, I'll take measurements at 1"intervals from a beveled "production" rod, send you the 5" stations, setupa form and then we'll compare the 1" intervals.)I'm not sure about the Russian tractor analogy. Belarus made someinteresting 4WD tractors.I don't think tho' that the ol-timers would chuckle all that much aboutpeople keeping costs down and undertaking rodmaking as a hobby.Certainly,towards the end, most of the quality production houses were having ahardtime making ends meet; and the tax man cometh...Seriously, the rodmakers that hope to go into it full time today alltell me about the great pensions they will be getting before they maketheleap. Will all those full-time cane rodmakers supporting a young family,without a second income, please raise your hands?Best regards,Reed "A.J.Thramer" wrote: As Terry mentions , there were almost no builders during the goldenageof cane who were anything other than 'production' builders. The greatvenerated names of the past were production builders. The cane'culture'seems to be presently codified as hand planed works of art. I dare saythat most of the old names would get a chuckle out of that. In the USAwe got where we are today by doing things better, faster, and moreefficiently which reduced the cost of a product to where it isreproducible and less costly. By demanding that a product be built usingcertain 'approved' outdated methods we arrive at a product that iscostlier than it should be. ie: Russian tractors, aircraft parts,handbuilt cane rods.A beveler or milling machine that will cut strips that can be useddirectly in a rod used to be the standard. An idea that some of usthink is ready to return.A.J.Thramer from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 17:54:23 1999 Subject: Re: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This guy is talking production, not amateur building with a plane.With good production equipment It is possible to cut the time to afraction of 40 hrs and simplify the manufacturing process to be able toemploy semi-skilled labour.A well designed beveller using up to date technology is capable ofworking to the same limits as a planing form without the 5 inchrestriction.Working to fine limits does take time, even with a beveller. It ispossible to run,say, 3 bevellers at the same time with ease. They canwork without getting tired, not like planing.And as for a good taper, T&T sold premuim priced rods that onlyperformed so,so.I think the only way cane can really make a comeback is by seeing themon the racks in the tackle shops.T.Ackland SalarFly@aol.com wrote: This subject got my interest, so I looked at the newsgroup whereall this was happening. I think I understand what Mr. Gink is doing. He is taking the costof materials and marking it up 100%. This is fine for a non laborintensive operation like my other hobby, jewelry making. In fact,this is the standard practice. I can usually make a ring or pendantin an hour or two, so a 100% markup over raw material cost is fine.Rod making on the other hand involves much more labor. For meabout 40 hours. I don't have any desire to make a rod for 2 or 3dollars an hour. And like I said before - without a good taper....... Darryl from maxs@geocities.co.jp Tue Jan 12 17:55:08 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with SMTP id IAA19113; Wed, 13 Jan1999 08:55:00 +0900 (JST) Subject: FW: Thinning Flex Coat As I wrongly post this from unauthorized address, I am resending this. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Thinning Flex Coat Hello Paul, There might be some confusion in talking about the product for colorpreserver, Flex Coat.I repeat this again here, Flex Coat which I am referring to is the name ofaproduct sold through Flex CoatCompany, Inc., Driftwood, Texas. It is water based so you can thinn it bywater. It dries approximately in one hour, or longer if low temperatureandhigh humidity condition exists. Drying time can be accelerated withapplication of heat-blow dryer. Clean up brush with warm tap water.(fromrecommended usage) As for the epoxy I use to seal wrapps again over the color preserver, theproduct name is Crystal Coat with sub title of One-Coat Polymer RodFinish,sold by ETI Field Landing, CA, tel. 707-443-9323.This is two component epoxy, A: Resin and B: Catalyst. Epoxy Thinner isalso sold as "Epoxy Thinner" here, but with no explanation of thecontents(thinner is the product of Japan, I guess). Would you please callyourself to the above phone number to make sure what you should use asthinner? I mix A:B: thinnter,1:1:4 when applying it on the wrappings. I hope this would help. Max ------Original Message-----From: Paul Lyon Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 7:19 AMSubject: Thinning Flex Coat One and all: The other day, I saw Max mention thinning Flex Cote epoxy finish beforeapplying it to wraps. That sounds like a wonderful idea because I havefound the stuff is hard to work with, even the so-called "Lite" formula.I'm sure if Max says he does it, then it works. Anyone have an opinion?Max, can you help? I think it would help me immensely if I could thinFlex Cote before applying it (yes, it's for a graphite rod for those ofyou gasping at the thought of using it on cane). I find the stuff isthick, builds too high too quickly and I have a tough time getting it todry hard even in ideal conditions -- exactly equal measurements, mixedthoroughly, warm and dry environment, etc. I also find it starts tothicken on me before I can finish all the wraps on a rod. Please, your thoughts. Paul LyonClarks Summit, PA from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Jan 12 18:00:53 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21548 for ;Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:00:52 Subject: Fly Fishing Bargains To the List,Considering the reputation of Gehrke's products, his Gink is pretty darnedgood. The interesting thing is that you can buy a product just as good andsuspiciously similar for 3 bucks a pound in the ladies cosmeticsdepartmentof your favorite discount druggist. But like other ladies things Gink comesin an attractive package. Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 12 18:20:42 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Don,if a quality cane rod cannot be made here then perhaps it should not bepursued.Much of the joy of fishing cane is the tradition and heritage of where andhowthese rods were developed. I cannot see what pride of ownership there canbehaving a cane rod made in a Chinese sweat shop.All we are looking at is a quality product that perhaps more anglers canafford.Cane rods will always be expensive, they always were, but they do nothave tobe,like, $1200 from an unknown.Good, resonably priced cane rods can be built here with modern technology,notusing old technology and cheap offshore labour.Terry Terry Canerods@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 1/11/99 11:19:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, irish- george@worldnet.att.net writes: Wow, timely irony! I am currently going through similar mentalgymnasticson transferring the manufacture of a product line to China. TheChinesefacility is inclined to go with throwing a lot of manpower at themanufacturing process, whereas I wish to maintain (and evenincrease) theamount of automated manufacturing in the process regardless ofwhere it isdone. My rationale is that the automation imparts a certain disciplinetothe process making it repeatable (and immune to human fatigue as thehourswear on), tightly controls the quality, and minimizes build time whichallows for an easy way to increase volume (that is, doublingproductiondoesn't require doubling the production personnel). Also, you'd be surprised...many overseas wages are not as low as youmightthink and some have pretty good benefits! (Chinese facilities shutdownfortwo weeks for Chinese New Year...those are paid holidays! Japaneseworkersmust get paid an extra month's salary as a bonus...it is the law! Danishworkers get 6 weeks paid vacation per year! It won't be long beforeothercountries are in similar situations.) George George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look forwelleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Jan 12 18:21:50 1999 Subject: Re: Gherke's $300 Bamboo Rod (Was: Price of Bamboo ) This guy is talking production, not amateur building with a plane.With good production equipment It is possible to cut the time to afraction of 40 hrs and simplify the manufacturing process to be able toemploy semi-skilled labour. Nope. He is talking about buying five planing forms and sitting fiveunskilled laborers down at them - with planes. Don't believe me? read the rec.outdoors.fishing.fly newsgroup. Darryl from andy@w-link.net Tue Jan 12 18:26:31 1999 Subject: Re: purchase bamboo All, If I may, the name of my company is The Bamboo Broker. I have not workedwith Bamboo Hardwoods for almost two years. Thank you. Regards, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: purchase bamboo Wil,In buying bamboo, our only option for years was Charles H. Demarest,Inc.You can contact Harold and Eileen Demarest at DEMARALON@aol.com. TheDemarest's are fine folks who have worked hard to keep a good supply ofcaneflowing. I highly reccomend them. I promise you won't go wrong indealingwith the scrupulously honest Demarest family.A relative newcomer to the Tonkin Cane market is Andy Royer ofBambooHardwoods. He can be contacted at andy@w-link.net Though I haven'tusedanyof his cane, I have seen some and it is nice. I think Russ Gooding issellingquantities of less than a bale for Andy. Russ can be reached through hiswebsite, http://www.goldenwitch.com/Hope this helps,Harry Boyd from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 18:28:04 1999 Subject: Mass Market Cane Just got Cabela's 99 Fly Fishing catalog and found somethinginteresting.Though they aren't selling cane blanks anymore,they are nowselling Douglas Kulick's Kane Klassics Rods.They list 6 different rodsaround the $1000 price range with all the rods carrying a" lifetimewarranty".Should be interesting to see how well they are recieved in thismarket.They gave him a nice display, including a full color photo ofDouglashand planing a rod.Usual disclaimers apply. Charlie from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Jan 12 18:44:22 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Pseudo Science Wilson,I've been the paid guide,Silver Creek route( a friend bought 1200' of thestream and had guides for us every day). The guides I had were good (Iguideand teach here in the East and in Yellowstone so I can attest to the qualityof the guides out of the Silver Creek Outfitters). That said, I did better onmy own when my guide helped someone else and I could evaluate thingswithoutpreconceptions. Some of my companions fit the bill of throwing money atanexperience but one of the wealthiest had first class equipment and wasonehelluva fisherman. So some steriotypes don't always work. Just my $.02Regards,Hank W. from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 18:56:26 1999 Subject: Re: Price of Bamboo Don,I found it interesting that the FABs (semiconductor fabricationfacilities) inHsin-Chu, Taiwan, import their technicians from the Phillipines; while alltheirengineers are home-grown.When you ramp up your production, give Manilla a call.Best regards,Reed Canerods@aol.com wrote: George, There's cheap labor and then there's cheap good labor. The 1st is easy tofind, the latter - well, lets just say Mexico isn't the place to look forwelleducated labor. commie eastern-bloc countries. Lot's of educated labor (can read blue- printsetc) and still relatively low labor costs. You'd have to supply allequipmentetc. But things are changing fast in many of these countries. Don Burns from channer@hubwest.com Tue Jan 12 19:01:00 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A0B2224016E; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:02:42 MST Subject: Re: Pseudo Science At 09:44 AM 1/12/99 -0600, Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: Thanks Peter. I would echo your comments. I too am saddened by theelitismI see around me within the fly fishing world. I'm wondering, though, canweget back to discussions on the hows, whys, and wherefores of rodmaking?Certainly we all have our individual reasons for doing what we do, hobby,career, and otherwise. It is not up to us to project our values on others,anymore than for us to judge others' values. I certainly don't think thislist is the place for it. Best regards,-Ed Estlow I'll second that, if it needs it.John from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 19:19:14 1999 Subject: Re: Production Rods Terry,Then we need more dreamers. I remember when I was living in a smallhouse inNova Scotia, paying rent by remodelling it, and trying to feed the family(wife andone child) through my harp workshop. We didn't starve, but our clothescame fromFrenchie's, we could watch the road through the floor of the car, and weheated thehouse with scraps of koa, sitka spruce, and mahogany from the workshop. Ialmostthink we were happier then (we were stylishly thin, too).Best regards,ReedP.S. - I don't think a planing form can meet the curves possible with abeveler.I've seen beveler templates marked at 1/64". Terence Ackland wrote: Reed,I am not really convinced that you can copy a taper from the masters andconvert it to a 5in station without there being a noticable difference intheaction.All my tapers were designed on the 5 in station and now I have built abevellerthat can use much finer increments I am not sure just what to do.To me, a rodmaker is a guy who can support himself and his family withhisrodmaking endevours, without any other financial assistance.I guess we are all just dreamers?Terry from sshorb@ozip.net Tue Jan 12 20:27:19 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-55785U1000L100S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:28:46 -0600 Subject: Bevelers There has been many references made to bevelers recently. Could someonetake the time to describe one? I think they machine a strip to a taperedtriangular shape from an equilateral one, but I would like a descriptionof the machine itself. Would it be on the order of a modified portableplaner or horizontal mill to cut the strips and a Morgan Hand Mill typeof base to hold the strips? I'm still figuring out how to includetemplates in their use. I haven't seen one anywhere on the net yet, onlymills. Tools and their use really interest me and I build as many of myown as I can.Skipps - Maybe I'm asking for classified information. from cphisey@neca.com Tue Jan 12 20:33:05 1999 Subject: Mass market rods In my last post I mistakenly said that Cabela's had gotten out of the Caneblanks,but I stand corrected.(thanks Onis) They are still selling the blanksin their rod building Section.It appears Cabela's believes in the market forcane. Charlie from rcurry@top.monad.net Tue Jan 12 20:43:54 1999 Subject: Re: Bevelers Skip,Keane's book may have a few crude photos. Basically, two small (1" orless diameter) circular saw blades, set to meet at a 60degree angle, arestationary in a horizontal plane. The blades move vertically, according to ametal template that is drawn along a track by the same fixture that ispulling the strip of cane -- the template moves the saws upward into themoving bamboo.The final result is a strip, almost ready to glue, done in one pass.Best regards,ReedP.S. - I'm still designing mine. A friend has one he has been building andrebuilding since the 1950's. Skip Shorb wrote: There has been many references made to bevelers recently. Couldsomeonetake the time to describe one? I think they machine a strip to a taperedtriangular shape from an equilateral one, but I would like a descriptionof the machine itself. Would it be on the order of a modified portableplaner or horizontal mill to cut the strips and a Morgan Hand Mill typeof base to hold the strips? I'm still figuring out how to includetemplates in their use. I haven't seen one anywhere on the net yet, onlymills. Tools and their use really interest me and I build as many of myown as I can.Skipps - Maybe I'm asking for classified information. from jkallo@midwest.net Tue Jan 12 21:07:46 1999 Hello all, I've two related questions that I hope you guys can give me some helpwith.I had the fortune of fishing the White River in Arkansas this weekendforthe first time, and not really sure what to expect I brought along mynewest rod-- Chris Bogart's S' Sweetheart. This was only the second timeI'dfished this rod and I continue to be amazed with it--its a really nicetaper. Unlike the spring creeks I normally fish though, I found myuselfwishing for a more powerful rod on the White. My questions are: what doyouguys (Rick, Harry) who fish the White often use for a general purpose rod?What taper does the list recommend for a 6wt. rod? I am considering theHeddon #50 President as the most likely candidate. I am looking forsomething that can lay out a good bit of line and turn over weighted scudsoften fished with a BB, as well as handle the seemingly common 18" 3.5lb'bow. Thanks all. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from tdapple@execpc.com Tue Jan 12 21:08:38 1999 Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from mrj@aa.net Tue Jan 12 21:40:38 1999 Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:40:32 -0800 Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off the timeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybe theminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you. Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from tdapple@execpc.com Tue Jan 12 22:07:03 1999 Subject: Another Q? Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off the timeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybe theminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you. Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help you dois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Jan 12 23:22:13 1999 Subject: Re: Another Q? If I were you, I would get my butt to the Somerset, NJ FF show on 1/30 &1/31 and take Wayne Cattanach's special two day bamboo rod buildingclass.That is if all 15 slots are not full yet. I think the $100 tuition is asteal. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Timothy Apple wrote: Thanks for the replies. I have yet another question. Should I start with ablank, or just go for it? Actually, I have more. If the blank is the choice, who should I buy it from, what do I need tofinish it, and where do I get the stuff? I live in Rockford Illinois, there is a builder named D.G. Schroeder( Ithink ) about 35-40 minutes from me, I'd hate to harass the guy, anyonehavea clue on how to go about asking for a lesson or two? Thanks,Tim Apple -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: RE: Newbie!!! real quick answer here.Blanks refer to the rod section without all the fixins I.e.tip top, handle,guides, wraps etc. It may or may not include the ferrule. Most off thetimeas far as building is concerned it does not. You will need to build a rodthe following: Patience, hand plane, 1" micrometer or a verneer caliper(hopefully at least a cheap 1" micrometer), some kind of planing formranging from wood to steel. There is more to be sure but this is maybetheminimum. You will need some kind of instructions from a book or inperson. Aperson, even a bad person (who can teach you how to plane the bamboo)willbe much better than even the very best book to start off with. Books aregood for reference. You might be able to learn from a book but really, tryto find some local person and suck up to him/ her to have them show youthebasics. I have not found a book yet that did not leave out some piece ofimportant information for a beginner.I built maybe 50 to 100 glass and graphite rods and then my intereststurnedto bamboo so I can't say that building a graphite rod won't help you.Thougha lot of the building process, in fact most of it have nothing to do withwrapping on the guides and putting on the handle (which is about all youcando with a graphite blank) so you won't learn all that much about actuallybuilding the blank from assembling graphite rods. What it will help youdois to do a fairly good finish ( I'm not talking about the varnish here,that's a whole 'nother ball game!)job on your first bamboo rod. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:17 PM Subject: Newbie!!! Hello, I'm new on the list, and I want everyone to know straight off, that I'venever built a rod in my life. My name is Tim Apple and I have a couplebamboo flyrods and fish them often. I joined the group to help me learnhowto build them. I will do my best not to annoy you with stupid questions.ButI'm going to start now. 1. When referring to Blanks, is that actually the rod without all thefixins, or do you still have to do all the preparation of it? 2. What is the basic setup, I'll need? 3. I hate to say this, but would it be better to try a few graphite rodsfirst? ( to get the basics down ) I hope you all don't feel this is a waste of space on your hard drive. Itruly want to learn this craft. Thank you,Tim Apple from stpete@netten.net Tue Jan 12 23:48:46 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA17654; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:48:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Joe, I wish I could answer your question with authority. All I can say isthat I am beginning to believe that the 4 wt rods are for my midgingdays. Of the rods I own, I usually use an 8' Phillipson Pacemaker 5 wt.but to be honest, I think the 8-1/2' Heddon 6 wt I own makes a moreutilitarian rod for the White. My next rod is a Para-15, which I've been meaning to make for a longwhile, but I'm going to start making more 7-1/2' to 8 foot 5 and 6 wts.I think these are an ideal size if you want to stay on the River all dayand run the gamut from Wooly Buggers to Elkhair Caddis and Sulphur Duns.I can't speak to you about taper types. I'm beginning to like para'smore and more. But if you are going to use split shot and Sowbugs,there is an argument for a strong, fast taper for line mending and shortline nymphing. (Also for dredging the big holes for the monsters) I'veeven been contemplating trying one of Dickerson's Guide rods or Boatrods for the days when I know I will be casting heavy flies hard all