to form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither would Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Jan 22 09:18:48 1999 Subject: Sloooow Mail I got word from the LISTPROC guys that they are doing some work on themailservers, and they would be taking the servers down from time to time overthe next week or so. What that means is that they will hold messages thathave been sent to the list, and send them all out in a batch. Hopefullymost of this will take place in the evenings, and there won't be many longinterruptions of service during the day. Sorry for the delays... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from TChafor@wavetech.com Fri Jan 22 10:03:50 1999 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000706DF; Fri, 22 Jan 9909:51:42 -0600 Subject: test from jfoster@gte.net Fri Jan 22 10:37:26 1999 Subject: Archives mac-creator="4D4F5353" The archives are broken, on purpose, i am in the process of relinkingthem, but with all the rain here on the ridge my net connection is verypoor. I'll let you know when they are back up fully Jerry from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Fri Jan 22 12:08:24 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id HAA29326; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:08:09 +1300 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Ferrule Fit Bob, Just one further coment in addition to Waynes advice , which as usual iswell thought out and helpful . A number of British rods makers used the technique of building up the rodatthe ferrule section by glueing thin strips of cane over the rod at thatpoint. They then turned the built up section down to achieve a perfectlyround section but with the original rod cross section still intact . An "oversized" ferrule was then used.I have a british book on rodmaking fromthe1950's with a diagram showing how to do this although it is fairingsimple.The only problem is it does not say how to make the strips which is thehardpart . I can fax you a diagram if it is of any interest to you . regards Iank At 12:15 AM 22/01/99 EST, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote:Bob - There are 2 schools of thought on how a ferrule should fit. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 16:55:49 1999 RAA110786;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:51:56 -0500 Subject: Re: forms =_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60 At the end of the day, I agree with Ed on the issue of "who can join theclub." For MY dough, it's the person who is conscientious, patient and iswilling to do what it takes to build a truly wonderful casting tool that looks as well as itcasts. Now, that person may WELL have bought his planing forms, andthat'sjust fine. I have no doubt that there are many excellent rod- makers outthere who did not build their own forms, and who have long since deservedto be regarded as "loyal and true members of the club." But (you knew there'd be a "but") I ALSO believe that building one's ownforms is an excellent introduction/apprenticeship into the craft -- as well as anexcellent test of one's patience and dedication. There are other ways tofind these things out, but surely building one's own forms is a good anduseful way for the would-be rod maker to discover if he has the rightstuff. That said, I should also say that after building my own forms over twentyyears ago and planing several dozen rods on it, in the spring I shall bepurchasing a Morgan Hand Mill. I hope my membership in "the club" willnotexpire. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Subject: Re: formsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:48 PM We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can jointheclub."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplishedwhomaynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you chooseto liveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's thesame asbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just notthesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwe goout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60 At the end of the day, I =agree with Ed on the issue of "who can join the club." = and is willing to do what it takes to build a truly wonderful = WELL have bought his planing forms, and that's just fine. = =there who did not build their own forms, and who have long since =deserved to be regarded as "loyal and true members of the =club."But (you knew there'd be a "but") I =ALSO believe that building one's own forms is an excellent =introduction/apprenticeship into the craft -- as well as an excellent = find these things out, but surely building one's own forms is a good and =useful way for the would-be rod maker to discover if he has the right =stuff. That said, I should also say that after building my own =forms over twenty years ago and planing several dozen rods on it, = hope my membership in "the club" will not = want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can join the = great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, for = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 18:03:22 1999 SAA36546;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:57:19 -0500 Subject: Re: forms =_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0 Well, it all gets curiouser and curiouser, said Alice. Van Gogh,Picasso, Renoir and Rembrandt; "they mastered their craft, then wentbeyond that level to express their true genius through great originality." Yup, that sounds about right. It also sounds sort of like Gillum,Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a few other folks whose fly rodscometo mind -- or John Zimny and Jon Parker, come to think of it. But surely I blaspheme -- these folks don't havegalleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, and so, certainly it can'tbe art. So, let's see -- the difference between art and craft... . Hmmm. Wehear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someoneelse had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each invent. And brushesand palette knives as others had done before. And their application was ona flat, two dimensional surface like all the others. And they used depthperspective, impasto (or "pasta," I forget), chiaroscuro an' stuff likethat, which they all learned from each other and taught to the wannabes. And then there were all those centuries of Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, not to mention still more centuries of the Virgin Mary andotherBiblical figures. Then, too, there all those happy little fat kids withwings. And don't forget clouds -- you gotta have lots an' lots of puffy(or thunderous) clouds and you gotta go to school to study how to paintthat stuff. "Cause, in France, if you didn't go to school and do things"their way," you may get hung, but you don't get hung in the Louvre. So, I don't know. I've been teaching literature in College for over thirtyyears, and the longer I go on, the less sure I become about where the artsbegin and the crafts leave off. I know (or I'm led to assume) there's adifference between the two on some academic level, but in practice, I'mnotalways able to distinguish one from the other. For one thing, though, Iknow the crafts always produce something functional, whereas the artsproduce nothing of any earthly, practical use. Maybe that's why we alwayswant to put the arts on that "lofty pedestal." The crafts suggestpracticality and work, whereas the arts whisper mysteriously of a lostdream -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we could hang around doingabsolutely nothing of any conceivable use to anybody, indulge ourfantasies for a living, paint it nice colors and get college professors to go "oooohhand aahhhh!" Steve, I'm just pulling your leg. No offense, buddy. Next time I see ya',I'll buy you a tall cold one. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Steven Weiss Subject: Re: formsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:39 PM Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's thesameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just notthesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform onegenerationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it isourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder Stuart,Having majored in art history in college, I take exception topeoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others. Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art.Steve- -----=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0 beyond that level to express their true genius through great = also sounds sort of like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a =few other folks whose fly rods come to mind -- or John Zimny and Jon = these folks don't have galleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, =and so, certainly it can't be art.So, let's see -- the = hear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someone =else had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they = forget clouds -- you gotta have lots an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) =clouds and you gotta go to school to study how to paint that stuff. = literature in College for over thirty years, and the longer I go on, the =less sure I become about where the arts begin and the crafts leave off. = on some academic level, but in practice, I'm not always able to = crafts always produce something functional, whereas the arts produce = crafts suggest practicality and work, whereas the arts whisper =mysteriously of a lost dream -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we =could hang around doing absolutely nothing of any conceivable use to = nice colors and get college professors to go "oooohh and = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 18:12:50 1999 TAA19918;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:10:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS =_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520 Yeah, but if you REALLY want to impress your friends, learn to do it with7X tippet. Bill ----------From: Jeff Arnold Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRSDate: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:51 AM I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, butIbet they're hell to roll cast! Jeff-----Original Message-----From: Anachemrpo@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:55 PMSubject: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Rodmaker listfellows, makehis own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslackinginany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither wouldItrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520 Yeah, but if you REALLYwant =to impress your friends, learn to do it with 7X = I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, but = = = no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, and = two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 22 18:23:02 1999 Subject: Re: forms imagine being refused entry to alcoholics anonymous until you can blowyour ownbottles.Terry Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can jointhe club."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplishedwho maynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you chooseto liveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the sameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwe goout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we must crawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 22 18:51:27 1999 ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: forms Now let me see. A craftsman is concerned with the quality of his work.Art is concerned about the originality of the work. In other words, if Imake a really fine rod, no matter how original the finish (specialwindings, coloring, engraved handle, etc.) it will never be art; but if Ido a really ratty job, mount it in a frame and get someone to buy it, Ihave made a piece of art? Many years ago while I was in college, I would occasionally stroll throughthe fine art/architecture building to view the latest art exhibit. Thefine art department regularly featured an artist with an exhibit of hiswork. I remember several pieces of "art" from one particular exhibit.There were several exquisitely done paintings of dead rats. Also includedwas a painting of a menstruating nude. The other piece I remember was apicture frame with half of a partially burned yellow commode seat with a(what looked like a turn of the century) newspaper picture of a couple ofmen in 19th century bathing suits, glued to the remaining end of the 'seat. How then to define art? By the medium? Does half of a commode seatrescued from the local dump qualify but a varnished piece of bamboo doesnot? Art does not require quality of workmanship but it doesn't exclude iteither. To try and define art by exclusion is to err. Maybe by what itdoes? Is an original, one of a kind chair to be excluded and an oilpainting not? Then what is the difference? One is enjoyed by the eye, theother by the backside. Most (if not all) hand made rods are (in my mind atleast) works of art. Can another be hand made exactly like it? What isthe difference between the rods of just one maker? Just variations on atheme? What about one artist's paintings? Aren't they also just"variations on his theme". Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Having majored in art history in college, I take exception to peoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others. Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art. from rmoon@ida.net Fri Jan 22 19:38:13 1999 Subject: Re: forms 7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC" --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC BillI have had this argument many times with many other people. Even nowI find it difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why Ithink rod building CAN be art. I am sure that no one would claim a paint by number canvas constitutesart, despite the fact that it was produced by real paint, real brusheson real canvas. By the same token, a bamboo rod does not in and ofitself rise to the level of art. There must be a modicum of originalityas you have said, but even my amateurish, original though they may be,fail miserably to achieve the status of Art even in my eyes.Rembrandt, I will never be. So what is it that distinguishes his work from mine? It certainly can not be broken into its components: colorchoice and balance, composition, subject matter etc. I think that incomes down to the fact that art in some manner not always the same forall of us is able to produce an emotional response. Example a beat up H& I rod fails to move me in any way. However, I once had anopportunity to cast a Jim Payne rod, and I am not exagerating, the rodreally seemed to be a living thing in my hand. I could do no wrong withit. To this day I lust after that rod. I think that Schweibert alsocaught the emotional aspect of a fly rod as art in the introduction tobamboo rods in TROUT. The failure of some people with an insensitivityto discern this activity as an art form does not in any manner denigrateit. I have a hard time with Cubism, but I can agree that there is theelement of art there despite my failure to recognize it. Anyway just a couple of thoughts. I am aware that this is one debate noone will ever win. Ralph --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC Bill Even now I find it difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation asto why I think rod building CAN be art. I am sure that no one would claim a paint by number canvas constitutesart, despite the fact that it was produced by real paint, real brushes originalityas you have said, but even my amateurish, original though they may be, that in comes down to the fact that art in some manner not always thesame I once had an opportunity to cast a Jim Payne rod, and I am notexagerating, that Schweibert also caught the emotional aspect of a fly rod as art in people with an insensitivity to discern this activity as an art form does I can agree that there is the element of art there despite my failure torecognize it. debate no one will ever win. Ralph --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC-- from thramer@presys.com Fri Jan 22 20:12:11 1999 0000 Subject: Art? A fishing rod/pole is a tool. So are the plastic variety. The materialoffers a way to engineer the tool to perform as you think it should butin no way I can see does the mere choice of material qualify a fishingrod as art. An illustaration that I like to use would be the often rather crude rods from Phillipson that are still held in great esteem by anglers who usebamboo(not collect,talk or brag). Some rods from England while built toa very high standard had some questionable casting characteristics andare not looked upon very favorably. The point I would like to make is that rods in the final analysis willbe judged on how well they perform, not on the varnish, rod tube,intricate thread work, perfect cork and a reelseat made from unobtanium.A high standard of construction is important but it does not fill therequirements of a fishing rod only that of a fishing rod collector. Inother words a hanger queen. A.J.Thramer from jkallo@midwest.net Fri Jan 22 20:17:25 1999 Hi guys, I think it worth at least noting that when we compare the craft ofrodmaking to "art" we might resist the idea that somehow craft is"beneath"the pursuit of beauty or form in-itself. Its true that most civilizationsbegin artistic expression in practical forms--the embellishments of craft.If "high art" is the attempt to pursue these things in their purity--andmaybe thats what it is--craft is still the ground from which such a pusuitsprings. If the craftsman fails in their task maybe their product is notesthetically fulfilling; if the artist fails they aren't left with anythingreally. Its sad too that craft is denigrated in favor of high art when itspretty apparent that crafts are the context for most people's estheticexperiences. Hell, most people who claim to appreciate the fine arts reallyappreciate the social factors involved. So, no, I don't think rodmaking is a fine art, and I'm a bit proud of thatfact. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 22 20:23:44 1999 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: WARNING!! NON ROD BUILDING QUSETION. forging bronze People of the list. Please forgive me for asking this question on list butthere would be some-one who can help. Has anybody had experience forging bronze? I need to make a yoke for thetiller on my boat and before making a pattern for casting in bronze Ithought I'd try forging it from 19.8mm phosphor bronze rod I made keelbolts from but before possibly atomising it I though I'd see if anybodyhas any helpful hints. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 22 20:36:03 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:35:39 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Art? I don't think rods are pieces of art, just honest useful impliments made makers. The expectation is a thing of beauty but that isn't the point asAJ has pointed out. I've waved some pretty lousy casting rods that peopledrool over but I wouldn't own just in case some-one picked the thing upand inflicted it upon himself. Just as an aside. I cast a Sage the other day, I don't know it's detailsbecause I've forgotten them (it was just plastic) but it was a 4 weightand about 7' maybe a tad longer and it cast very much like the Sir D.Sorry to say that Wayne but I thought so, so did a person also on the sameboat who owns a Sir D, as did my son who also owns a Sir D.Don't know what to make of this but there you have it.I am now deeply confused. Next thing Stanley will start properly heattreating their plane irons. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from jwilcox@netsync.net Fri Jan 22 21:36:58 1999 quartz.netsync.net(8.9.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA08136 for; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:36:48 Subject: lie-nielsen planes boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060 bill harms is right. the little lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. i =have the one with the replacable throat pieces. it's their #103SP. =while you're at it you guys should try their new 9 1/2 block plane. it =fits your hand like a glove. the control it gives you is outstanding. =they are indeed expensive, but these two planes make a system that is =unbeatable. regards, jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060 lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. i have the one with the replacable = wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060-- from pyork@ipa.net Fri Jan 22 22:11:10 1999 Subject: Craft vs. Art Joe I agree with you, And this subject has been a life long debate in whichI've been in several times over the years. Being an Art Director in theadvertising and marketing field, the debate often comes up. Is commercialart the same thing as fine art? NO. Fine art is purely subjective.Commercial art is a creative way to solve the clients problem. ie, how do Ibuilt a stick that will project a line into the water in order to catch afish. A craft is a knowledge that is handed down. For example: this rodbuilding board. Is there room for both fine art and craftsmanship? YES. Thecraftsman in us makes it functional, the artist in us makes it appealing.Just my thoughts....Paul At 2:13 AM -0000 1/23/99, Joseph S.Kallo wrote:Hi guys, I think it worth at least noting that when we compare the craft ofrodmaking to "art" we might resist the idea that somehow craft is"beneath"the pursuit of beauty or form in-itself. Its true that most civilizationsbegin artistic expression in practical forms--the embellishments ofcraft.If "high art" is the attempt to pursue these things in their purity--andmaybe thats what it is-- craft is still the ground from which such apusuitsprings. If the craftsman fails in their task maybe their product is notesthetically fulfilling; if the artist fails they aren't left with anythingreally. Its sad too that craft is denigrated in favor of high art when itspretty apparent that crafts are the context for most people's estheticexperiences. Hell, most people who claim to appreciate the fine artsreallyappreciate the social factors involved. So, no, I don't think rodmaking is a fine art, and I'm a bit proud of thatfact. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 22 23:17:02 1999 Subject: Re: forms boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60 - Well, it all gets curiouser and curiouser, said Alice. Van Gogh, =Picasso, Renoir and Rembrandt; "they mastered their craft, then went =beyond that level to express their true genius through great =originality." Yup, that sounds about right. It also sounds sort of =like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a few other folks = to think of it. But surely I blaspheme -- these folks don't have =galleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, and so, certainly it =can't be art. So, let's see -- the difference between art and craft... . Hmmm. =We hear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that =someone else had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each invent. And =brushes and palette knives as others had done before. And their =application was on a flat, two dimensional surface like all the others. =And they used depth perspective, impasto (or "pasta," I forget), =chiaroscuro an' stuff like that, which they all learned from each other =and taught to the wannabes. And then there were all those centuries of =Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, not to mention still more centuries=of the Virgin Mary and other Biblical figures. Then, too, there all =those happy little fat kids with wings. And don't forget clouds -- you =gotta have lots an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) clouds and you gotta =go to school to study how to paint that stuff. "Cause, in France, if = So, I don't know. I've been teaching literature in College for over =thirty years, and the longer I go on, the less sure I become about where =the arts begin and the crafts leave off. I know (or I'm led to assume) =there's a difference between the two on some academic level, but in =practice, I'm not always able to distinguish one from the other. For =one thing, though, I know the crafts always produce something =functional, whereas the arts produce nothing of any earthly, practical =use. Maybe that's why we always want to put the arts on that "lofty =pedestal." The crafts suggest practicality and work, whereas the arts =whisper mysteriously of a lost dream -- namely, that we all secretly =WISH we could hang around doing absolutely nothing of any conceivable = a living, paint it nice colors and get college professors to go ="oooohh and aahhhh!" Steve, I'm just pulling your leg. No offense, buddy. Next time I = you a tall cold one. Cheers, Bill --You bet, Bill, Reminds me of discussions long ago over lots of tall cold ones, when =I was a lot younger. Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60 - sounds sort of like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a = other folks whose fly rods come to mind -- or John Zimny and Jon = certainly it can't be art.So, let's see -- the difference = masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someone else had = done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each = their application was on a flat, two dimensional surface like all = an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) clouds and you gotta go to school = you don't get hung in the Louvre. So, I don't know. = teaching literature in College for over thirty years, and the longer = on, the less sure I become about where the arts begin and the crafts = crafts always produce something functional, whereas the arts produce = practicality and work, whereas the arts whisper mysteriously of a = -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we could hang around doing = you a tall cold one.Cheers, Bill--You bet, Bill,Reminds me of discussions long ago over lots of tall= ones, when I was a lot younger.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60-- from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 22 23:38:44 1999 Subject: Re: forms Now let me see. A craftsman is concerned with the quality of his work.Art is concerned about the originality of the work. In other words, if Imake a really fine rod, no matter how original the finish (specialwindings, coloring, engraved handle, etc.) it will never be art; but if Ido a really ratty job, mount it in a frame and get someone to buy it, Ihave made a piece of art? Many years ago while I was in college, I would occasionally stroll throughthe fine art/architecture building to view the latest art exhibit. Thefine art department regularly featured an artist with an exhibit of hiswork. I remember several pieces of "art" from one particular exhibit.There were several exquisitely done paintings of dead rats. Also includedwas a painting of a menstruating nude. The other piece I remember was apicture frame with half of a partially burned yellow commode seat with a(what looked like a turn of the century) newspaper picture of a couple ofmen in 19th century bathing suits, glued to the remaining end of the 'seat. How then to define art? By the medium? Does half of a commode seatrescued from the local dump qualify but a varnished piece of bamboo doesnot? Art does not require quality of workmanship but it doesn't excludeiteither. To try and define art by exclusion is to err. Maybe by what itdoes? Is an original, one of a kind chair to be excluded and an oilpainting not? Then what is the difference? One is enjoyed by the eye,theother by the backside. Most (if not all) hand made rods are (in my mind atleast) works of art. Can another be hand made exactly like it? What isthe difference between the rods of just one maker? Just variations on atheme? What about one artist's paintings? Aren't they also just"variations on his theme". Onis,I agree, lots of stuff called art is not. And some things that have functioncan be art, such as architecture. And beauty can be found in the form ofmany things. But if you can reproduce Rembrandts ( or Payne lookalikes) bythe dozens, does that make you an artist or a craftsman?Steve from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 22 23:57:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:57:27 +0000 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Jasper Thread I don't know how large a stock of it he has -- I just bought a spool fromhim (hasn't arrived, yet) and he just sold a spool on E-Bay for over $110!!!(It is old Granger stock.) Belvoirdale also lists it on their website(smaller spool for, I believe, $10) -- but I never got an answer to mye-mail inquiries (I tried twice). Good luck,George Bourke(with a bunch of Shakespeares, South Bends, and Grangers needingblack/whitejasper)-----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Jasper Thread I think Dick Spurr still has some. Contact him at spurr@kingfisher.com. 980 yd. spools run $50. -----Original Message-----From: Jim Tefft [SMTP:jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu]Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:02 PM Subject: Jasper Thread Listmembers, I have a fellow TU club memeber who is refinishing a bamboo rod(fordisplay)and would like to find a source for a Black/White threadwhich Ibelieve has a make or trade name of Jasper ? Does anyone haveinformation where it can be obtained ? Appreciate the help and if information is incorrect the correctnameetc. Jim Tefft. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 23 00:17:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:17:25 +0000 Subject: Re: forms Would you consider manufacturing a flute (musical instrument variety) tobean art or a craft? There are flutes displayed as art (primarily ones madeof glass). George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the sameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform onegenerationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder Stuart,Having majored in art history in college, I take exception to peoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others.Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art.Steve from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 00:38:11 1999 Subject: Re: forms Would you consider manufacturing a flute (musical instrument variety) tobean art or a craft? There are flutes displayed as art (primarily ones madeof glass). George Bourkemostly craft, George, especially the first student's flute that I bought higher-quality silver flute--still a piece of craftsmanship, probably theproduct of several workers.Steve from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 00:58:34 1999 23:01:23 PST Subject: rodmaking as art ... Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice's opinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and I enter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magic taking place, where all that matters is planing a strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never as an apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use these masterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ... but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on the water than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that I might loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bits of bamboo stuck together with string. And to that I'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is just some wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Chris- tian_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from stpete@netten.net Sat Jan 23 02:14:20 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA21128 for ;Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:14:11 Subject: Adhesive Poll OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sat Jan 23 03:43:36 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id SAA07733 for; Sat, 23Jan 1999 18:43:32 +0900 (JST) Subject: Something wrong? Hello, Is anybody out there? I returned home after a week absence. Receivedfew messages.I did unsubscribe/subscribe, of-course. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 04:16:47 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:15:32 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Dear Rick I`m an swiss and european rodmaker - excuse tha`t i don`t know Shell epon,Titebond and stuff like these. I have experience with 3 glues for rodbuilding - the first is swiss madeandavailabele trough a hobby-store called MIGROS. Good glue, but dries veryquickly, for me a bit to fast.The other is also a swissmade glue, but think wellknown in other parts inEurope and also in the US - the glue calls ARALDIT. Also a good glue, andand 2 component epoxyd-glue. The glue i use today is an one component glue, white in color and clearwhenhe`s dry.He dries also quickly, after 2 days the rod is ready to work further. Forbinding i haveca. 8-10 minutes time.I don`t know the name of this glue, i have it from Mr. Michael Huelsenbeckin Germany(Fax ++49 2196 792304, has no e- mail!). He sells also small quantitys. Heimports the glue from Scandinavia, mabye our friends from Sverige andNorwayknow`s more about the exact name of this glue. I tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from saltwein@swbell.net Sat Jan 23 06:17:04 1999 GAA01719 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jan 23 06:20:23 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:19:51 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Something wrong? Max,I have just returned from being away for 6 days and there were 178messages. Tony On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Max Satoh wrote: Hello, Is anybody out there? I returned home after a week absence. Receivedfew messages.I did unsubscribe/subscribe, of-course. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 07:07:43 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:07:01 +0100 (MET) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Sv: Adhesive Poll Dear Carsten and Freinds The glue can be thinned with water, and i do straightening by heat with aheatgun. Alsoi never had problems with heat-straightening, also is the glue absolutlywaterproof after drying.I think the blank is not very bendable while heat-straightening, and i doheat-straightening after gluing.There nothing written on the glas my glue is inside, but this is not theoriginalpackage - Mr. Huelsenbeck ships the glue not in the original pack. He saidto me,he has the glue from another - scandinavian - rodmaker. Carsten, if you know "my glue", what are your experiences with it? CordiallyStefan Grau Carsten Jorgensen schrieb: -----Original Message-----From: Stefan Grau Cc: Rodmakers Listproc Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:21 AMSubject: Re: Adhesive Poll Stefan wrote (snipped) Hallo Stefan How about a dane asking a few questions about Your glue? 1. Is it thinnable with water?2. Do You straighten Yor rods by application of heat, when they areglued?If so, are the rods very bendable?3 Does the letters PVA or Casco or other words appear on the tube?if so, please tell me. I think I now what kind of glue, You are using, but pleaseanswer the above questions, and I'll be back regards, Carsten JorgensenI tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick -- S. Grau`s atelier edelweissswiss handmade bamboorodshttp://bamboorods.hypermart.net from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 23 07:14:29 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AB914EB0132; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:16:01 MST Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:13:07 -0700 From: channer Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll At 02:07 AM 1/23/99 -0600, you wrote:OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Rick;I have been using Epon,too. I don't have anymore trouble straightening thesectiona after the glue sets up with it than I did with Urac, and with thelonger open time, I don't have as much to do. If it is giving you troubleright out of the binder, hang the sections with a few pounds hanging offthe bottom for 3 or 4 hours, then go over them again. Also, I find that Iput a lot of bend in the sections cleaning the excess glue off when theycome out of the binder, so I clean them while they are going thru thebinder. I just hold a rag wrung out in vinegar on the outfeed side ,turning and rinsing the rag as necessary. That is the greaat thing aboutepoxies, you have so much open time you can do these things. John from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 07:58:27 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Steve,I used URAC when I began and while I didn't think it was the be- allandend-all I was planning to use it again when I got back into this. I didn'tcare for the potlife but I also HATED the shelf-life! I was using about $3worth of glue per rod when I cosidered how much I had to throw away attheend of the year. Luckily I met Bill Fink for a fishing trip and he talked up EPON. I wentaround and around and decided to give it a try ( a pretty big decision whenyou consider it's about $40 a unit, which is 2 qts). I WILL NEVER GOBACK!!! He says the supply lasts practically forever, it has a potlifecomparable to that of a mayfly and is cold-straightenable for about 18hours. If there's a down-side, I haven't found it yet (after 7 rods). Ialso have his experiences using it in industry and for rods for overI-don't-know- how-many-years.RICK: If you're getting twists, try putting more wraps of maskingtape onthe blank and leaving them on while you bind (Jon Linvet suggested thisrecently and I merely took it with a grain of salt 'til yesterday- -ThanksJon!). I just did 3 rods yesterday and the only one with twists was the onewhere the tape didn't stay on as I bound it together. I don't know when orwhy it came off but I have to believe that it's connected. I also foundthat if you use thinner string you can more easily see the bends and twistsin the rod while you're working on it.If you want another glowing recommendation, e- mail Chris Bogartdirectly.I've heard him enthuse over it in ways that make my acclamations soundtepid.God bless Bill ,Art At 06:19 AM 1/23/99 -0800, Steve wrote:Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from mrmac@tcimet.net Sat Jan 23 08:03:14 1999 Rodmakers Subject: Re: Jasper Thread A couple months back I bought some of the black and white jasperElephant thread Grahame has to offer. I had emailed him with nosuccess, so I contacted him by telephone. Maybe a call will work better Disclaimer, drafted by a plaque of lawyers, notarized by my mother andother saints) is (215) 886-7211 or a FAX line (215) 886-1804. I don't recall which size the thread is, 40 or 60, and it's not markedon the spool. from cattanac@wmis.net Sat Jan 23 08:24:01 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP Subject: Re: Art? Tony -Years ago there was an article interviewing the many graphite rodmakers - one of the areas that was covered was that of how soft agraphiterod could be made - while at Sage the author cast a very petiteexperimentalrod that they had made - the comment( from the Sage folks) about the rodwasthat it was too delicate to servive in the real world. Last summer I castseveral of there new offerings - their slower series - I think that theywere the SP+ series - The 7'0" and the 8'0" did cast quite well - and I wasquite surprised myself remembering back to the article and Mr. Green'scomments.I guess that the explaination would be that the Sir D is at the upperend of the speed curve of bamboo and that the SP+ is at the lower end ofcurrent graphite design - this may be an area of overlay. Also I think thatthis is reflective of the cycle of the graphite rod market - they need toresale the product - the cycle appears to be every 2 years. Remember thematerial chase of a few years ago - If you are familiar with the economyofa fly shop you will understand why this cycle exists. Rod sales underwritemost fly shops.Other comments to the list have brought back the thread of Art. I wouldsuspect that if you were to do a polling of current living recognizedmakers. Most would tell you that they want their rods used for thedesignedintent - that is fished. Todays rods reflect the best of both worlds -pleasing to the eye but yet are pleasing in use as well. I assure you thatthe makers I know who offer rods to the public are as concerned with thefunction of those rods as they are with the shine that sells. As unpopularas the comment may be to some - the best bamboo fly rods ever made arebeingmade today and some of them are being made by individuals that most maynotrecognize.If you can find them there are 3 issues of The Rodmakers' GuildNewsletter from 1947 floating around out there. In reading them you willseethat the same questions and concerns are being raised today as in 1947.Youmight say that the issues are the same just that there are different namesattached. They too were asking what techniques and products were thebest touse trying to push the level of the craft forward. I suspect the the riff isthat each of us may define progress differantly. from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 08:49:17 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:47:10 +0100 (MET) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Art? Good new times I have also a "plastic"-rod i use, if i don`t have the need for one of mysplit cane rods ( and that`s very seldom).In my small mountain creeks, in hot summer and when the water is veryclear, notdeep and the trouts rise only to the smalles flies or nymphs, i use the"Orvisone-weight".After 4 years of fishing this rod, it`s always not bad to fishing thisplastic-stick, a very light, slow and crisp action. Another thing about SAGE;Think has seen her "new stuff", the rod with the integrated reel in an oldbook- think Hardy has made the same "invention" ca. hundert years ago? Well, time changes not often..... Wayne Cattanach schrieb: Tony -Years ago there was an article interviewing the many graphite rodmakers - one of the areas that was covered was that of how soft agraphiterod could be made - while at Sage the author cast a very petiteexperimentalrod that they had made - the comment( from the Sage folks) about the rodwasthat it was too delicate to servive in the real world. Last summer I castseveral of there new offerings - their slower series - I think that theywere the SP+ series - The 7'0" and the 8'0" did cast quite well - and Iwasquite surprised myself remembering back to the article and Mr. Green'scomments.I guess that the explaination would be that the Sir D is at the upperend of the speed curve of bamboo and that the SP+ is at the lower end ofcurrent graphite design - this may be an area of overlay. Also I thinkthatthis is reflective of the cycle of the graphite rod market - they need toresale the product - the cycle appears to be every 2 years. Remember thematerial chase of a few years ago - If you are familiar with the economyofa fly shop you will understand why this cycle exists. Rod salesunderwritemost fly shops.Other comments to the list have brought back the thread of Art. Iwouldsuspect that if you were to do a polling of current living recognizedmakers. Most would tell you that they want their rods used for thedesignedintent - that is fished. Todays rods reflect the best of both worlds -pleasing to the eye but yet are pleasing in use as well. I assure you thatthe makers I know who offer rods to the public are as concerned with thefunction of those rods as they are with the shine that sells. As unpopularas the comment may be to some - the best bamboo fly rods ever made arebeingmade today and some of them are being made by individuals that mostmay notrecognize.If you can find them there are 3 issues of The Rodmakers' GuildNewsletter from 1947 floating around out there. In reading them youwill seethat the same questions and concerns are being raised today as in 1947.Youmight say that the issues are the same just that there are differentnamesattached. They too were asking what techniques and products were thebest touse trying to push the level of the craft forward. I suspect the the riff isthat each of us may define progress differantly. --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from jczimny@dol.net Sat Jan 23 08:54:42 1999 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll I wouldn't try to dissuade you from using any other adhesives. However,I'm hearing a lot aboutthe short pot-life of urea formaldehydes. In order to increase pot-life,simply decrease theamount of catalyst in the mix. One should be able to achieve 45 to 50minutes of pot-life. Ifyou insist on using the walnut shell at least get the "summer" catalyst.This contains less acidsalt and will slow down the reaction.John Zimny -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 09:08:49 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Chris- tian_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 09:18:58 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll The manufacturers of urac cover themselves with a short shelf lifebecausemost users are industrial and do not protect the adhesive from moistureetc.If you store the powder in a container with a tight fitting lid with silicacrystals the adhesive will last for several years.When the glue starts to get lumpy when mixed, it should not be used.This information was passed on to me by an expert at Cyanamid.Terry Steve wrote: Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from Venneris@aol.com Sat Jan 23 09:25:07 1999 Subject: test This is a test I have been having trouble with old screen name and amtrying anew one. Hope this works. Any one else having trouble Best regards,Bob VRobert Venneri's Custom Components21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY i2477914 246 5882http://members.aol.com/venneris/home.html from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 11:00:34 1999 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: forms Steve,First let me apologize for coming on so strong but I love a goodphilosophical discussion. Everyone has their own definition of art. That said, here is mine. Acraftsman pursues quality. An artist expresses himself. Can anyonereallyhand copy an original without putting some of himself into the work? Whatis the difference between copying the original and copying the style? Consider the lowly fly. Tying flies is considered an art form. I'mspeaking of those who have taken it completely out of fishing. They are asdedicated to producing a work of art as any painter. The only reason theseflies are made is to be displayed and appreciated for their artisticappeal. So where do they differ from those made only to catch fish. Icontend it is the guy that made it. Craftsmanship and art are as different as apples and oranges. They arerelated only in that craftsmanship is perceived to improve art. I.e.,later works of an artist are perceived as being "better" than his earlierworks. Art can be created without craftsmanship; little children do it allthe time. Craftsmanship is learned; art is not. All the education thereis cannot create an artist. It can be used to maximize what is alreadythere but it cannot create what is not there. Is Jazz art? It is an original expression of the "artist"(?). I thinkmost people consider it art. So what is the difference between the Jazzmusician and the classical "artist" whose job is to reproduce exactly thenotes created by the composer? To me it's not whether a thing is art but rather how much. I believe youwould be hard pressed to find any hand made article, rods included, thatwas totally devoid of any influence by it's maker. Even the guys who"assemble" plastic rods strive to embellish them with attractive wrapsandsuch. Is this not art? How many on this list only "reproduce" the works of the old masters. Howmany make and use the varnish, techniques and exact materials andspecifications of Payne, Garrison, Granger, etc. To be only craftsmanship,there must be no artistic input. Does using someone else's taper negatethe art content. What about the painter who buys a primed canvass; ready Anyway, enough of that. I agree with you that art and craft are confusingand confused. It is not however, whether it's one or the other but ratherhow much of each. Think of it like this; on one end is the faithful(nooriginal input) reproduction of the greatest fly rod ever made...purecraft. On the other end is another fly rod. Made only as an expression ofthe builder with no intent of fishing at all; purely artistic,craftsmanship is totally ignored. Between these two extremes arevariouscombinations of artistic content and craft. With the exception of theendpoints, none are completely free of artistic content or craft; just amatter of degree. Just my nickel's worth (to much for $.02). Best RegardsOnisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,I agree, lots of stuff called art is not. And some things that have functioncan be art, such as architecture. And beauty can be found in the form ofmany things. But if you can reproduce Rembrandts ( or Payne lookalikes)bythe dozens, does that make you an artist or a craftsman?Steve from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 11:13:39 1999 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll I also use Epon. I use Titebond II also. I build nodeless rods and want avery good bond for the splices; for that I use Titebond II. For gluing thestrips together, I want a long working time and good strength after theglue sets. I am completely satisfied with the Epon for this. I would use epoxy to glue splices but my tests have shown Titebond II isstronger for this application. I would like a glue that is both strong andheat resistant for splices but I haven't found it yet. Polyurethane glueis as temperature resistant as I would like but is not as resistant tosplice failure as Titebond II. My tests are to make a (several)splice,glue and let set for a few days, then bend it(them) to put the most stresson the splice until it breaks. The only glue that I've found(epoxiesincluded) that will produce a break like an non-glued strip is Titebond II.It would be nice if it were as temperature resistant as polyurethane glue. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comOK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick from jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se Sat Jan 23 11:26:04 1999 with ESMTP id AAA197 for ;Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:18:32 +0100 Subject: George Fraley on the list? Fellows of the list! A couple of weeks ago I bought a Prefire Leonard 51, 9',3pieces/2t through eBay. The rod is mint restored to its originalcondition and should have been so by mr George Fraley who studiedwith mr D. Whitehead. I would very much appreciate if someonecould inform me how to reach him. BestJan Nystrom from rmoon@ida.net Sat Jan 23 11:51:11 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 12:33:01 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane over twostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be a weakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from stpete@netten.net Sat Jan 23 12:38:19 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA18730; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:37:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Ralph, You make an excellent point. It is the builders like Onis, ChrisBogart, John Zimny and many others test materials and who gather enoughexperience and data to speak with some authority on such subjects. Butyou cannot deny that the purpose of this list is to discuss experiencesand discoveries made in the bamboo rodmaking craft (there I said it). I would love to experiment with all sorts of adhesives, but I'm only onrods 4 and 5. I don't think that it is beyond the scope of the list toask the more experienced rodmakers if they are willing to share theirexperiences with us newbies. Heck, we have to start somewhere. I hadto purchase an adhesive or epoxy to make my first rod. Titebond II wascheap and readily available. I had difficulty with it. Perhaps Ididn't use it properly, I'm not sure. But when I needed anotheradhesive, I scoured the archives and decided upon Epon. I'm sure othershave decided on using Urac, Nyatex or Resourcinal based onrecommendations from the list, Cattanach, Garrison and otherauthorities. I simply haven't had the time, money, or energy topurchase and test them all. Perhaps over time I will. Until then, Idon't mind asking others their reflections regarding adhesives based ontheir EXPERIENCES, many of which may be similar to mine. In the meantime, I join you in commending those who work to test andresearch different materials and methods. They are the blood and gutsof this list and without them the list would be of little practical use.I build rods strictly as a recreation and understand that those whobuild professionally need not and perhaps should not divulge tradesecrets. And perhaps the lazy among us should be chastised for alwayswanting more than we contribute. Not all of us are in a position torecommend ourselves as experts, but those who are willing to share aremuch appreciated and the advise they give will be taken as a startingpoint and not the last word on the subject. Rick Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ralph from jkallo@midwest.net Sat Jan 23 12:56:34 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick et al., thusfar and will use it to glue up a third tommorrow night. I don't reallyhave anything to compare it to, but I have been generally happy with it. Itdoes have a long working time (about an hour) and is fully cured within 24(according to the Elmer's people). The negatives are the higher cost (Ifigure about $2 a rod) and the incredible bond the stuff makes withskin-- gloves are really necessary. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 13:55:21 1999 ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I am gettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane overtwostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be a weakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Jan 23 14:47:45 1999 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Where can I get the book? List,I put out some posts and was wondering if they came thru on the list as Inever got the posts myself. One was on a 7'6" bamboo spinning rod did youguysget it?Bret from FlyTyr@southshore.com Sat Jan 23 15:14:19 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 15:16:01 -0600 Subject: Forms This turned out to be a little long, if it is old stuff just "D" key it. I am not an old timer at this, well maybe old in age.Getting back to the forms, I hesitated in replying but then I thoughtsomeone might get some good from this. I had my steel stock drilled andthreaded for three years looking for someone who could mill the "V"grove for me. I never did find any one that would even considered doingit. I had Wayne's book and read it over and over and decided that thecondition my hands were in I could never do all that hand filing. I wasreally intimidated about doing it by hand. Besides, I was told byseveral machinist that you could never hand file to those tolerances. Iwas fortunate to be where I could talk to Wayne and he convinced me Icould do it. I laid out the forms with the taper as in the book. Insteadof using a file, I used a $20.00 4" grinder to remove most of theexcess metal. It only took about 20 minuets. Cleaned up the metal andscrewed the two pieces back together so that the two sides were flush.With a vixen file mounted on a flat piece of wood with a strip of woodon each side to act as a guide to keep it flat, I filed the top andbottom smooth again. I had originally done this before I did anygrinding. Kepy check on it with a small square. If you have a router itis an easy task to make a groove in the wood for the file and guidestrips. I then came up with the idea that I could use a triangle filethat is 60 degrees to make the groove. I started out with I think .058on the butt side of the taper and increased it .005 every five inches.The 5" stations were also marked. This is the space between the insideflat sides adjusted by the push pull screws. The triangle file wasmounted to a piece of flat hard wood and used as the vixen file wasused, except it filed the "V" groove. The taper in the forms areactually set in reverse, wide at the tip end and narrow at the butt end.Kept a check on the progress with a 60 degree gauge and much to mysurprise it stayed a honest 60 degrees. The depth gauge was also used tocheck the depth at the 5" marks. When there was .005 increase at eachstation I quit filing . Did the tip side the same way but I think Istarted out with .035. To smooth the groove I used some 320 wet or drysanding cloth. With the forms closed I have .015 depth at the tip and.052 at the butt. Every inch increases by .001. I thought it impossibleto get that close. Took it back to the machine shop, he wanted to knowwhere I got it done. When I told him, he got his depth gauge and checkedit out. All he had to say, I'll be D----. Total time in making thegrooves, three evenings.What I an trying to say, if you are thinking about making metal forms goat it, don't let it scare you. I could had mine ready three yearssooner. If you are not aquatinted with drilling and tapping then getthat done by someone that has the equipment. You can do the restyourself.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 16:06:31 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Hi Onis,I am not so sure about Tite-bond II, I do not think it is up to it, it has noheat resistance at all.There is a 2 part cross-linkable pva on the market that the ForestProductsLab. say has improved resistance to heat and moisture.I have not tried it but it looks promising. Custompac market their versionofin small shop quantities.Contact Jeff Pitcher (Mr. Sticky) athttp://www.custompac.com/cusbond.htmHe is a very knowledgeable guy and runs an adhesive forum on thewoodweb. Hehas helped me with questions regarding high frequency gluingI do not know this product and it would probably be no good to repair theoldStrad with but could well be ok for fishing poles.Regards Terry Onis Cogburn wrote: Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I amgettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane overtwostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be aweakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Toomanyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, Iknowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experimentasyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from gaff@carol.net Sat Jan 23 17:44:23 1999 Subject: shoulder bolts hey guys,i don,t know art from craft.i do, however, need some shoulder bolts for my form.if any body knows where i may buy themm i sure would like to knowabout it.thanking you very much.wil from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 17:47:39 1999 Subject: crosslinked pva sorry, try this http://www.custompak.com/adhesive.htmThe product that looked interesting was MPA X-TERIOR a two partadhesive from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 18:08:36 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis,I don't think you'll find URAC "locally" until and unless you move to IronMountain Mich. The Nelson Paint Co ( located there) and Highland Hardwareare the only two purveyors of it in under 50 gal drums that I'm aware of(Highland has a catalog---I think they're in the southeast).Take care,Art At 01:51 PM 1/23/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from lblan@provide.net Sat Jan 23 19:27:18 1999 Subject: RE: Art; was: Re: Forms Onis; this is easy... a very good friend of mine explains it: When you go into the fly shop and they want or need something, you're anartist. When you go in to discuss the price, you're a craftsman. This is with the knowledge that you're not talking about standard flies... Ijust couldn't help it! :) -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: Re: forms Consider the lowly fly. Tying flies is considered an art form. I'mspeaking of those who have taken it completely out of fishing.They are asdedicated to producing a work of art as any painter. The only reasontheseflies are made is to be displayed and appreciated for their artisticappeal. So where do they differ from those made only to catch fish. Icontend it is the guy that made it. from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 23 19:36:42 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A9833720162; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:38:11 MST Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll At 01:51 PM 1/23/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I amgettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it.Onis;I think you can pretty much forget about buying Urac locally. It is anindustrial glue that really has no retail sales outlet, if you want it, youhave to order it from Nelson Paint(look at the rodmakers page). I thinkWeldwood Plastic Resin glue is the closest thing you will find locally. John from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 19:47:24 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... There is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Very true Terry,There is probably more need today than ever before for true craftsmen.Thevalues and discipline needed are not part of people's education anymore.Most of the "widgets" we buy are throwaways and are planned to beobsoletein about 6 months anyway.Buy a graphite rod and you will be depressed next year when the samecompanyhas what they claim is a revolutionary new material.Steve from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jan 23 20:08:04 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:04:07 -0500 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... =_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760 Terry is right. There is nothing wrong with being a craftsman! So, Iwonder why craftsmen are often so "touchy" about not being calledartists.And I wonder why artists are so "touchy" when they are called craftsmen. Seems thereare a LOT of delicate egos in circulation. But I wonder why "art" is reserved beautiful and useful things. And I revere the people who can make them. So, who really cares about the gatekeepers who assign terminology? Cheers, Bill ----------From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: rodmaking as art ...Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 7:10 AM How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Christian _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760 = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760-- from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 20:10:30 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as well astotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 21:27:43 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All,As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone ever seenthesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol He said to start with 500 grains of the resorcinol for a single rod.Again, if this is old knowledge or useless I hope someone will say so. Ihave never seen it mentioned on the list before and I've never tried itmyself. I glued up one rod with regular resorcinol, a bunch of them withURAC and finally found a home with EPON.Art At 07:10 PM 1/23/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Jan 23 22:32:22 1999 216.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA) My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to twoweeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'mnot sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with theoil.I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal,Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, shouldIbe concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore theblank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in acouple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for how long? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA) first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to = I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm = whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'm = in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) but = suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should I be concerned = moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for now and = another heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, = a temperature and for how long? in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA)-- from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 23:44:22 1999 21:43:02 PST Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Terence, Good to see your posts haven't lost any of their impatient bulldog color in the year of the rabbit ;-) If this or my last post sounded long-winded or full of self-praise ... forgive a erstwhile rodmaking apprentice in need of more humility [and editorialcontrol] ... but my feelings remain the same. If the craftsman ... and Stradivarius was considered a craftman working out of a shop in Cremona ... knew that his instruments could be currently exchanged for multi-million dollar castles ... I don't doubt that he'd be at least bemused ... Probably, Mr. Gillum and other perfection-minded rodmakers whose rods are currently trading hands at plus or minus $10,000 would be at least amused tooto know how much their rods are desired. But then, [I think it can be safely argued] truecraftmen aren't looking to make piles of money ... as craftsmen they were trying to make the best instrumentthey knew how. They crafted excellent tools which did more than just make noise or catch fish ... and for this reason, their instruments are highly appreciated ... whether for sounding that high "c" or throwing a line with uncommon grace. Yes, anyone with a some line and corn on a hook can put a hole in a fish's jaw. Sure, anyone with piles of money can buy a Stradivarius and make some music. However, can anyone use either instrument with finesse, confidence and authority ... and not a little joy? I think such musicians and anglers are rare. There are special, and I mean "special" rod builders out there. I am not one of them. However, the perfection-minded amateur and professional craftsmen who won't allow 2nd quality rods out the door are special. There is a certain spirituality about someone who dedicates a large part of his life to rodbuilding with humility and passion ... with little or no expectation of monetary reward ... only the joy that comes doing something with as much feeling and eye to perfection as possible. And to me, that person is an artist. Your fellow craftman[-in-training], Christian ---Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius? Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison. There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million. This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea to visit cane rods dealer and let them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely on self praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation" I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry on into the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Turbotrk@aol.com Sun Jan 24 02:03:18 1999 Subject: test testing , this is just a test ....... from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Sun Jan 24 07:47:12 1999 Subject: Re Minimum list of Tools needed to build rods and Re a questionon behalf of MarcusWarwick. boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320 Thanks for replying to my enquiries. I am sorry not to have replied to =them as yet, I have been having problems with my new modem. I will reply=individually in due course. With respect to the answers for Marcus, I will forward them on to him, =especially the references to various web sites. I will ask him how he =extracts moisture from his bamboo before he begins his planing and put =it out to the list for interest. regards Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320 To all on the list who replied tomy = separate e-mails. Thanks for replying to myenquiries. = not to have replied to them as yet, I have been having problems with my = modem. I will reply individually in due course. With respect to the answers for = forward them on to him, especially the references to various web sites. = ask him how he extracts moisture from his bamboo before he begins his = and put it out to the list for interest. Thanks Again regards =Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Jan 24 08:10:21 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:07:41 -0600 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28" --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28 Richard,If you're worried about moisture re-entry, try the simplesolution I use. Put your blank in a piece of pvc pipe, capped onboth ends; (one end has a threaded cap) along with some silica geldessicant. The gel absorps the moisture, rather than allowing therod sections to do so. Devise some simple way of keeping thesilica out of direct contact with the rod. Once a week or so, byheating the dessicant gel in the microwave for a few minutes youdrive off what moisture it has absorped.Silica gel is easy to find. Mine came in about a 4"x4" papercontainer (looks like a coffee filter). You can get it at flowershops. They use it for drying flowers. George Maurer's bookreccomends a half pound of silica, and rod sections in long skinnyplastic bags.There are much more complicated solutions. But I think simpleis best. Harry Boyd BTW, I'm in Louisiana. We invented humidity. Our averagehumidity is about 75%, and this simple solution works for me. Richard Nantel wrote: My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it forabout one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a coupleof coats of tung oil since I'm not sure whether the varathane Iintend to use later will work with the oil. I'm located in whatis usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) butwe're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should Ibe concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament priorto varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high atemperature and for how long?Thanks inadvance,Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28 Richard, on both ends; (one end has a threaded cap) along with some silica gel The gel absorps the moisture, rather than allowing the rod sections to contact with the rod. Once a week or so, by heating the dessicant gel in absorped. about Maurer's book reccomends a half pound of silica, and rod sections in longskinny plastic bags. But I think simple is best. humidity is about 75%, and this simple solution works for me.Richard Nantel wrote: first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to twoweeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil sinceI'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work withthe oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal,Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, shouldI be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignorethe blank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishingin a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for howlong?Thanks --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28-- from rp43640@online-club.de Sun Jan 24 08:36:42 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:36:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll My name is Christian Meinke from Germany. Although having built only asmall number of rods (30) since 1993 I would like to comment on theadhesive discussion: a short information on the glue from scandinavia:this glue is manufacutered by the company: Dana Lim A/S, Kobenhavnsvej 2204600 KogeTlf.nr.: 56640070Faxnr.: 56640090 The product is called DANA PVAc V8There are different glues called DANA PVA the suffixes like the small cand V8 differentiate between the characteristics like: with hardener andwater resistant. The source of Huelsenbeck is probably the by danish, dutch and germanrodmakers wellknown Preben Dorph Joergensen/Denmark. Since there are so many different glue types around let it beconventional glues for wood or epoxies the best way is to get thetechnical data sheet and MSDS's and to talk to customer service.Otherwise it is trial and error and could have disastrous results. Thisis the same with varnishes. The laboratory I am working for has done several tests with competetiveepoxies and these are all very similar. But like always the use of any of these glues is a matter of personaltaste and preferred working methods. Christian---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan Grau schrieb: Dear Rick I`m an swiss and european rodmaker - excuse tha`t i don`t know Shellepon,Titebond and stuff like these. I have experience with 3 glues for rodbuilding - the first is swiss madeandavailabele trough a hobby-store called MIGROS. Good glue, but dries veryquickly, for me a bit to fast.The other is also a swissmade glue, but think wellknown in other partsinEurope and also in the US - the glue calls ARALDIT. Also a good glue, andand 2 component epoxyd-glue. The glue i use today is an one component glue, white in color and clearwhenhe`s dry.He dries also quickly, after 2 days the rod is ready to work further. Forbinding i haveca. 8-10 minutes time.I don`t know the name of this glue, i have it from Mr. Michael Huelsenbeckin Germany(Fax ++49 2196 792304, has no e- mail!). He sells also small quantitys.Heimports the glue from Scandinavia, mabye our friends from Sverige andNorwayknow`s more about the exact name of this glue. I tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from caneboy@xtn.net Sun Jan 24 09:01:21 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:00:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercial withRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhad agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (intwocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither wouldItrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 24 09:50:24 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics. WhenWendell Castle sells a hall table, whether made by him or an apprentice,it is usually considered the work of a craftsman. When Mr Castle carves,as part of the "piece", a Stetson resting on said table and a scarfdraped over the table... it is art. Go figure...We aren't going to solve this. One way to further confuse the issueis to attempt to inject spiritual aspects to wood and glue. (Unless youuse hide glue.)) Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of theperformer; this was the debacle of the '60s and '70s... "my emotion isart". What is significant in rodmaking is not what the craftsman/artistputs INTO the rod, but the performance (and to some small degree,appearance) of the finished product. I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my $.02. Best regards,Reed from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jan 24 10:14:40 1999 (5.5.2407.0) I hope that I am not offending anybody but we seem to be getting carriedaway with our own selfimportance, after all as T.A. said we are just making fishing poles notpainting the Mona Lisa.Stradavary was just a craftsman like the rest of the luthiers at the time,what set him apartand heads and shoulders above the rest was that he was the consummatecraftsman and adjusted hisinstruments to function the best with the material (wood) that he had. Isuspect that not onlyare we making better flyrods today than in the bamboo heyday but we areprobably making betterviolins also. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jan 24 10:21:29 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:17:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll =_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260 Hey Steve,To the best of my knowledge, resorcinal is still regarded as a mostexcellent glue, at least as far as it's bonding qualities are concerned. There are a few negative things about it for the rod-builder, however. Certainly, the dark, mahogany glue line it leaves behind is thought (bymany folks) not to be particularly attractive. But there are a coupleother things too. For one, a good bond with resorcinal depends upon anEXACT mating of all surfaces, since this glue is not at all effective as agap-filler. Resorcinal WILL fill very small gaps, but the bonding strengthjust at these points is hugely diminished. Of course, we all TRY to getperfect mating surfaces anyway, but even our best efforts are not alwaysperfect. And lastly, there is the mess that goes along with this glue. It isdifficult to clean up, especially from one's hands, as it discolors (dyes)the skin. Gloves can be worn, but this is always very clumsy for me whenIneed most of all to be precise.Suit yourself -- certainly there have been hundreds of excellent rods builtwith resorcinal. But remember, "Pinky" Gillum wasn't called pinky fornothing. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Steven Weiss Subject: Re: Adhesive PollDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 6:10 PM OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve------ =_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260 Hey Steve,To the bestof =my knowledge, resorcinal is still regarded as a most excellent glue, at = few negative things about it for the rod-builder, however. = good bond with resorcinal depends upon an EXACT mating of all surfaces, =since this glue is not at all effective as a gap-filler. = efforts are not always perfect. And lastly, there is the mess = especially from one's hands, as it discolors (dyes) the skin. = need most of all to be precise.Suit yourself -- certainly there have = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260-- from briansr@point-net.com Sun Jan 24 10:22:46 1999 0000 Subject: Rodmaking as a art Rodmaking might be an art. Some people might be artists at what they do,buta rodmaker is actually only making a tool to cast a line & go fishing with,not a work of art.That being said, however,Art Port could, IMHO, call hisrods "works of Art".Cheers Brian from mrj@aa.net Sun Jan 24 10:54:01 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:53:40 -0800 "Rodmakers Listproc" Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll I did try the whitening technique described. I only added the titaniumwhitethough. The glue did lighten up but it was pink. For a light rod thisprobably show up less than the dark purple. I have not tried the completerecipe as you described though. Maybe this countered the "pink" problem. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All, As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone everseen thesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol He said to start with 500 grains of the resorcinol for a single rod.Again, if this is old knowledge or useless I hope someone will say so. Ihave never seen it mentioned on the list before and I've never tried itmyself. I glued up one rod with regular resorcinol, a bunch of them withURAC and finally found a home with EPON.Art At 07:10 PM 1/23/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 24 10:56:22 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... At 10:52 AM 1/24/99 -0500, reed wrote:This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics................ I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my $.02. Best regards,Reed Reed,Bravo on the Thomas analogy!Art from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 24 11:26:32 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Chris,Music to me is is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, it has somuch power. Music effects the entire globe, it defines nations. In thegreat scheme of things you cannot compare it to fishing.I am not sure about spirituality in rod making, I do feel better thoughafter a few beers!I treat rod making as an industrial process because it is the only way Ican offer rods that do not vary in performance.It must be me, I cannot see anything particularly incredible about beingable to build a cane rod, I believe anyone can make one.I wanted to build rods because I have always had cane rods and it lookedlike a good pastime. I did not expect it to take me onto a higher plane. Terry Christian THALACKER wrote: Terence, Good to see your posts haven't lost any of theirimpatient bulldog color in the year of the rabbit ;-) If this or my last post sounded long-winded or fullof self-praise ... forgive a erstwhile rodmakingapprentice in need of more humility [and editorialcontrol] ... but my feelings remain the same. If the craftsman ... and Stradivarius wasconsidered a craftman working out of a shop inCremona ... knew that his instruments could becurrently exchanged for multi-million dollar castles... I don't doubt that he'd be at least bemused ... Probably, Mr. Gillum and other perfection-mindedrodmakers whose rods are currently trading hands atplus or minus $10,000 would be at least amused tooto know how much their rods are desired. But then, [I think it can be safely argued] truecraftmen aren't looking to make piles of money ... ascraftsmen they were trying to make the best instrumentthey knew how. They crafted excellent tools which did more thanjust make noise or catch fish ... and for thisreason, their instruments are highly appreciated ...whether for sounding that high "c" or throwing a linewith uncommon grace. Yes, anyone with a some line and corn on a hook canput a hole in a fish's jaw. Sure, anyone with piles of money can buy aStradivarius and make some music. However, can anyone use either instrument withfinesse, confidence and authority ... and not a littlejoy? I think such musicians and anglers are rare. There are special, and I mean "special" rod buildersout there. I am not one of them. However, the perfection-minded amateur andprofessional craftsmen who won't allow 2nd qualityrods out the door are special. There is a certain spirituality about someone whodedicates a large part of his life to rodbuildingwith humility and passion ... with little or noexpectation of monetary reward ... only the joy thatcomes doing something with as much feeling and eye toperfection as possible. And to me, that person is an artist. Your fellow craftman[-in-training], Christian ---Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of caneto a Stradivarius? Even stripped to the basicsthere is no comparison. There is a little more tomaking music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10million. This list is getting stupider andstupider. It might be an idea to visit cane rodsdealer and let them decide whether we are producingworks of art and not rely on self praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is norecommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long asit does not carry on into the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 24 11:27:47 1999 Subject: Re: Rodmaking as a art Brian,Been thinking along those VERY lines !Art At 11:19 AM 1/24/99 -0500, Brian Sturrock wrote:Rodmaking might be an art. Some people might be artists at what they do,buta rodmaker is actually only making a tool to cast a line & go fishing with,not a work of art.That being said, however,Art Port could, IMHO, call hisrods "works of Art".Cheers Brian from dickay@alltel.net Sun Jan 24 11:31:28 1999 LAA13823; Subject: Re: shoulder bolts Wil,You need to go to the industrial machine supply houses. Look in yourYellow Pages for "Machine Tools" or "Industrial Supplies" or "MillSupplies". These places should carry them. Also look for places thatspecialize in bolts and screws. There are three places in our little city(80,000) that specialize in bolt and screws. You need to think wholesalesupply houses.Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----------From: w.d. gatliff Subject: shoulder boltsDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:44 PM hey guys,i don,t know art from craft.i do, however, need some shoulder bolts for my form.if any body knows where i may buy themm i sure would like to knowabout it.thanking you very much.wil from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 24 11:31:42 1999 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS consider me spanked, grouchboy caneboy wrote: Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercial withRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway.:-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though,and had agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (intwocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothis foryou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get theseforms doneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neitherwould Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jan 24 11:41:48 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:37:25 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0 Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know about theeffects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation We have been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, todo the same before finishing). But I wonder how important, in practice,this actually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be what the discussion, as Ihave heard it, is about. Instead, the worry seems to be about the"dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, andthus building a rod that will remain "soft" in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), isthat no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentofwood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalize itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by theusual, lengthy drying process, the "bound water" has been driven out andthese cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture content. Anyremaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound to migrate both inand out as the ambient humidity changes. And, surprisingly, not even ourmodern poly varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for thelifeof a fly rod. The same is true for furniture, of course. Wood continuesto "work" from one season to the next, and no finish can prevent theprocess. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we cando ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run. So, I wonder howmuch one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and"cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one totwo weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oilsince I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will workwith the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw.So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior tovarnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and forhowlong? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0 Hello all,Here's a = effects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a = about preparation for the glue-up stages.We have been told by =various builders that it is very important to drive or draw out all =possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, to do the = have surfaces as dry as possible for purposes of attaining the best bond = within =the fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain = will always equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity = reduced as much as it can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the = =moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called "free = surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this = action will be affected by the same process, I really couldn't say, but =I don't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT that , either in the = worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and = to hear more thinking on Richard's question.Cheers, Bill----------From: = blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PMMy first rod is glued up. I =won't be able to varnish it for about one to two weeks. I'm a bit =hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm not sure =whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'm =located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, =Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should=I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore =the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishing =in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for how = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0-- from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Jan 24 13:02:38 1999 Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jan 24 13:15:27 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'jackdale@uswest.net'" Subject: RE: Art were just making fishing poles ----------From: Jack Dale[SMTP:jackdale@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Jan 24 13:29:43 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... You're an engineer. Try inventing a switch that will engage your brainbefore your mouth (or typing skills) can engage. Perhaps not all youropinions are worthy of being graven on stone tablets. Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Christian _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from jkallo@midwest.net Sun Jan 24 14:02:11 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Reed,While I agree that we aren't likely to "solve" this--these sort ofthingsdon't work out to nice solutions--I disagree that this is simply a matterof semantics. Art and craft share some common basis, but its pretty clearthat the ceiling of the Cistine chapel isn't craft and the vine sculptedsanta clauses at the local fair isn't art (vine art maybe). Making rodsdoes occupy that really interesting grey area inhabited by pottery andothers. The master craftsman's work in this area seems to be somethingwewant to call art. But if its a craftsman making the artwork we want to saythe craftsman "has an art" rather than "is making art"--why the change inlanguage though? Really interesting stuff. Best,Joe At 10:52 AM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics. WhenWendell Castle sells a hall table, whether made by him or an apprentice,it is usually considered the work of a craftsman. When Mr Castle carves,as part of the "piece", a Stetson resting on said table and a scarfdraped over the table... it is art. Go figure...We aren't going to solve this. One way to further confuse the issueis to attempt to inject spiritual aspects to wood and glue. (Unless youuse hide glue.)) Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of theperformer; this was the debacle of the '60s and '70s... "my emotion isart". What is significant in rodmaking is not what the craftsman/artistputs INTO the rod, but the performance (and to some small degree,appearance) of the finished product. I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my $.02. Best regards,Reed Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jan 24 14:05:44 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: T.A. You know I'd bet that every time T.A. stirs up the pot and one of us let himget under our skinthat he just sits back and rolls on the floor with laughter. I'm as guilty asthe next guy butevery time I react, I loose and he wins and it takes a whole bunch of selfrestraint to keepmyself from reacting. Every ones entitled to their opinion whether weagree with it or not andthrough all of his blustering comes some good stuff. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jan 24 15:07:59 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id AC1D666D029A; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:09:49 EST Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Joe,Don't misunderstand my statement regarding semantics. I didn't say"simply"semantics, the fine points of language are important.Again we might do well to examine a scholarly discussion of Art andCraft.However, I'll try to regurgitate some of the suggestions posed thus far.Art is art because:1/ It performs no useful function (beyond providing somesubjectiveemotive touchpoint).2/ It includes an element of "magic". (Why does a Tintoretto evokecertainsimilar feelings in many people?)3/ It cannot be fully taught. (Admittedly, most artists studiedunderothers, "the school of"; but all will admit that some aesthete must be from theindividual itself.)Cane rods1/ Perform a useful function.2/ Seldom have that "magic", though some do.3/ Look at the disciples of H.L Leonard; they all went on to makenames Edwards]. I guess, Joe, that we must each judge for ourselves; but it baffles methatthe question (Cane rods: Art or Craft?) has value."Show me the Rod". That I can understand.Best regards,Reed "Joseph S.Kallo" wrote: Reed,While I agree that we aren't likely to "solve" this--these sort ofthingsdon't work out to nice solutions--I disagree that this is simply a matterof semantics. Art and craft share some common basis, but its prettyclearthat the ceiling of the Cistine chapel isn't craft and the vine sculptedsanta clauses at the local fair isn't art (vine art maybe). Making rodsdoes occupy that really interesting grey area inhabited by pottery andothers. The master craftsman's work in this area seems to be somethingwewant to call art. But if its a craftsman making the artwork we want tosaythe craftsman "has an art" rather than "is making art"--why the changeinlanguage though? Really interesting stuff. Best,Joe At 10:52 AM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics. WhenWendell Castle sells a hall table, whether made by him or an apprentice,it is usually considered the work of a craftsman. When Mr Castlecarves,as part of the "piece", a Stetson resting on said table and a scarfdraped over the table... it is art. Go figure...We aren't going to solve this. One way to further confuse the issueis to attempt to inject spiritual aspects to wood and glue. (Unless youuse hide glue.)) Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of theperformer; this was the debacle of the '60s and '70s... "my emotion isart". What is significant in rodmaking is not what the craftsman/artistputs INTO the rod, but the performance (and to some small degree,appearance) of the finished product. I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my$.02. Best regards,Reed Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mrj@aa.net Sun Jan 24 16:01:37 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:01:32 -0800 , Subject: RE: Art I would tend to disagree here Pat. If I just wanted to make fishing poles Iwould probably still use graphite. I WANT to make bamboo rods. I WANT tofish with bamboo rods. Not anything else. My reasons? Because I want toandhave the right to choose to. It is more than just a fishing rod to me. Ienjoy casting it. I bet that there are graphite or glass rods that cast aswell but I don't want to find out. The rods that I build I put my heart andsoul into them, and if that's not art than I don't know what is. (speaking from an artists point of view).Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- W Subject: RE: Art were just making fishing poles ----------From: Jack Dale[SMTP:jackdale@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from RVenneri@aol.com Sun Jan 24 16:13:17 1999 Subject: test Test IM not getting any post. Is it quiet or me. Best regards,Bob V from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Jan 24 16:33:34 1999 216.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: RE: rodmaking as art ... I've been sitting back reading this discussion about art vs craft. I'm sureI'm as subjective about this subject as the next person but here are mytwocents worth: I have a university degree in fine arts and another in music, two of thehigh arts as they say. I've painted, sculpted, composed, and performedrecitals. I'm also a software developer, student of Aikido (a Japanesemartial art), brew all-grain beer, and now make bamboo rods. Truth is, Iseeno difference in any of these passions. I can see no line in the sandbetween any of these endeavors being art or craft. I believe the notion ofart vs craft is a typical Western construct. We are obsessed witheverythinghaving a polar opposite. I think this mental paradigm is largely based onour focus on the object that results from the effort, rather than theprocess to create. A disproportionate number of my fellow music colleagues becameprofessionalsoftware developers. Both music and software have strong mathematicalroots.Simply look at certain Baroque musical scores and you'll see as manynumberson the page as you will musical notes (figured bass, a type of shorthanddesignating what the harpsichord player should be doing). We've all beenmoved by a beautiful musical passage, but, I've also seen programmersmoved Humans create. They create not only because they need things but becauseanything you create is an expression of who you are. It's our way of sayingthis is me, whether in music, or in wood. The objects we make areextensionsof ourselves. Viewed this way, there is no difference whether you arecreating a sculpture or a child is creating a sand castle. A few years ago, the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts put on a show aboutbeautiful automobile designs. The show was a big hit. People came indrovesto view this new art. These were machines built on a production line. Doyouvalue your car more knowing that it may someday be in a museum? Is yourFordEscort now art because a museum says so? Forget about putting the object into an art or craft pigeon hole. Doeverything you do with care and precision. Beautifully invented, designed,and constructed objects are all around us. They are all the expressions ofsomeone who approached their creations with care. Richard from SealRite@aol.com Sun Jan 24 17:06:48 1999 Subject: Bellinger Beveller A couple of questions to fellow beveller users - has anyone ever thoughtaboutbuilding an adjustable form that expands/contracts with push/pull setscrewsto hold the wood template down. I am thinking you could use a mountedgaugeto set the forms instead of shims & drill bits. Secondly, does anyone know where to purchase another flat mill cutter forcutting the templates Craig Anderson402-430-4375 from caneboy@xtn.net Sun Jan 24 17:22:06 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:20:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Golly Terence, I was goofin' around. Terence Ackland wrote: consider me spanked, grouchboy caneboy wrote: Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercial withRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (andyou haveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making theirown bamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway.:-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though,and had agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (intwocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despitewhat everyonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothis foryou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get theseforms doneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neitherwould Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley facesort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from jtitone2@juno.com Sun Jan 24 17:44:51 1999 18:44:12 EST Subject: test This is a test.___________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno athttp://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654- JUNO [654-5866] from jtitone2@juno.com Sun Jan 24 19:19:41 1999 20:19:21 EST Subject: Hand finishing and heat treating I am about to build my second and third rods and have two questions: 1) I have a dip tube but am interested in hand finishing. Any help orsuggestions would be appreciated, particularly: (a)what type of varnish,polyurethane , tung oil or a combination of these is preferable;(b)method of application; (c)number of coats; (d) is rotating rodnecessary when drying; (e) is rod protected from moisture as much asdipping method; (f) is buffing necessary; and (g) any other suggestions,or pros /cons. 2) Is heat treating absolutely necessary? My first rod was flamed(scorched) to a very dark color and was heat treated at 375 for 7minutes. I understand that some of you don't heat treat flamed rods, butrather use a heat gun on the pith side of the half culm. I would like topass up building an oven if necessary. Again, any help or suggestionswould be appreciated: (a) methods; (b) pros/cons; (c) do any of you skipthe heat treating on unflamed rods. Please respond via the list or to me privately at jtitone2@juno.com orjptsdt@worldnet.att.net. Thanks to all in advance and for the helpyou've provided for the last year. Jody Titone___________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno athttp://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654- JUNO [654-5866] from channer@hubwest.com Sun Jan 24 19:20:45 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A74AB42013C; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:22:18 MST Subject: RE: Art At 11:15 AM 1/24/99 -0800, you wrote:were just making fishing poles ----------From: Jack Dale[SMTP:jackdale@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? You know guys, it ain't hard to tell that it is winter and the fishing iseither out of season, or crappy as hell. Aynbody caught anything recently? John from bacon@idt.net Sun Jan 24 19:40:52 1999 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Jeff Arnold wrote: I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, butIbet they're hell to roll cast! Jeff-----Original Message-----From: Anachemrpo@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:55 PMSubject: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Rodmaker listfellows, makehis own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslackinginany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own cold rolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither would Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent fellas,in case some of you are not purists, and if you're looking for goodpeople to make your forms, i visited a machinist shop in central NJwho has forms and has had input from some excellent rodbuilders. if youwant to know the name please contact me @ bacon@idt.net. the price is$650. which is steep, but i believe the product is excellent. believeme i have no monetary interest in this, but after visiting their shop,can see that these people are honest. jean from plipton@sunvalley.net Sun Jan 24 21:27:10 1999 Subject: fly-fishing shows boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BE47D7.E734F1E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BE47D7.E734F1E0 I talked to Mark Metcalf a few days ago. As publisher of the Bamboo Fly =Rod magazine, he has a booth at several of the fly-fishing shows that =take place this time of year. He issued an open invitation to all rod =builders who would like to display rods in his booth. If you would like =a chance to show your rods to a wide audience, contact him. These booths are very expensive. As a new builder, there is no way I =could afford to exhibit at one of these shows. I was excited to have the =opportunity to be able to display some rods and gain this kind of =exposure. There is always the chance that I will get some constructive = It would also be a great opportunity to meet fellow rod builders. I plan =to go to the International Sportsman Show in Salt Lake City, March 4th =through 7th. Are there any other list members out there that plan to go? = around. The Bamboo Fly Rod magazine booth is a great place to meet. Is =there any interest? PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BE47D7.E734F1E0 I talked to Mark Metcalf a few days ago. As = Bamboo Fly Rod magazine, he has a booth at several of the fly-fishing = take place this time of year. He issued an open invitation to all rod = who would like to display rods in his booth. If you would like a chance = your rods to a wide audience, contact him. These booths are very expensive. As a new builder, = way I could afford to exhibit at one of these shows. I was excited to = opportunity to be able to display some rods and gain this kind of = There is always the chance that I will get some constructive criticism = expand my craft. It would also be a great opportunity to meet fellow= builders. I plan to go to the International Sportsman Show in Salt Lake = March 4th through 7th. Are there any other list members out there that = go? For those of us in Idaho or Montana, this may be the closest show = The Bamboo Fly Rod magazine booth is a great place to meet. Is there any = interest? 208-622-8585 ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BE47D7.E734F1E0-- from darrell01@netzero.net Sun Jan 24 22:14:27 1999 (209.154.170.39) Subject: Re[2]: Art boundary="=PMail:=_0009@@rTJeE10bN8pnqoDBSdu5" --=PMail:=_0009@@rTJeE10bN8pnqoDBSdu5 I've caught a nasty bug that has made me miserable for the last 3 weeksand now I seem to have caught something new and worse!!! darrell ps John I'll be returning your silk shortly, thank you!=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: RE: Art At 11:15 AM 1/24/99 -0800, you wrote:were just making fishing poles ----------From: Jack Dale[SMTP:jackdale@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Art=If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art?= You know guys, it ain't hard to tell that it is winter and the fishingiseither out of season, or crappy as hell. Aynbody caught anything recently? John --=PMail:=_0009@@rTJeE10bN8pnqoDBSdu5-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jan 24 23:04:24 1999 Subject: Re: Art You know guys, it ain't hard to tell that it is winter and the fishing iseither out of season, or crappy as hell. Aynbody caught anything recently? John Yea John,I took my latest rod, based on the Payne 201L 8' taper, down to theriverside drain and caught about a half-dozen 6" browns on some size 20trico spinners. Tough fishing. The drain is like a spring creek, the fishare VERY spooky, the water is clear and slow, and there are loads of dead6'sunflowers to catch your backcasts.The rod performed fine. It's slow but strong, casts a WF5 beautifully.I can see the loop form IN the tip of the rod and travel down the line. Whatfun.Steve from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jan 24 23:16:26 1999 Subject: Re: Hand finishing and heat treating I am about to build my second and third rods and have two questions: 1) I have a dip tube but am interested in hand finishing. Any help orsuggestions would be appreciated, particularly: (a)what type of varnish,polyurethane , tung oil or a combination of these is preferable;(b)method of application; (c)number of coats; (d) is rotating rodnecessary when drying; (e) is rod protected from moisture as much asdipping method; (f) is buffing necessary; and (g) any other suggestions,or pros /cons. Jody,I don't have a dip tank yet, so I do the following:apply warm MOW spar with a foam brush, two coats on the blank, sandedaftereach coat with 1500 grit paper.Wrap guides, varnish wraps with at least three coats of spar.Sand wraps with 1000 grit paper.Final coat the whole rod with spar.Rub and polish the final coat if and when I feel like it.I turn the sections until the varnish is set, then hang in my drying cabinet(the sections, not myself).Steve from saweiss@flash.net Sun Jan 24 23:23:23 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All,As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone ever seen thesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst>4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol I remember reading in an article by John Zimny in The Best Of The PlaningForm that the bleaching process for resorcinal doesn't last. The colorgradually returns.Steve from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 24 23:38:56 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:38:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Seeking clarification on this:Titanium Dioxide is not a bleach, it is a white pigment -- Does it not lastor do you mean only bleaching doesn't last? George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All,As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone ever seen thesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol I remember reading in an article by John Zimny in The Best Of The PlaningForm that the bleaching process for resorcinal doesn't last. The colorgradually returns.Steve from RMargiotta@aol.com Mon Jan 25 00:54:16 1999 Subject: test -- ignore test from TChafor@wavetech.com Mon Jan 25 04:20:39 1999 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00070DB4; Mon, 25 Jan 9904:15:56 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,iank@nelson.planet.org.nzSubject: Re[2]: Ferrule Fit --IMA.Boundary.653952719 What are your thoughts on using thread as an under wrap? Tim ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Ferrule FitAuthor: iank@nelson.planet.org.nz at Internet Bob, Just one further coment in addition to Waynes advice , which as usual is well thought out and helpful . A number of British rods makers used the technique of building up the rodat the ferrule section by glueing thin strips of cane over the rod at that point. They then turned the built up section down to achieve a perfectly round section but with the original rod cross section still intact . An " oversized" ferrule was then used.I have a british book on rodmaking fromthe 1950's with a diagram showing how to do this although it is fairingsimple. The only problem is it does not say how to make the strips which is thehard part . I can fax you a diagram if it is of any interest to you . regards Iank At 12:15 AM 22/01/99 EST, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob - There are 2 schools of thought on how a ferrule should fit. --IMA.Boundary.653952719 headers" with SMTP(IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000707E6; Fri, 22 Jan 9912:23:01-0600 199907:08:09 +1300 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Ferrule Fit --IMA.Boundary.653952719-- from stpete@netten.net Mon Jan 25 07:43:01 1999 cedar.netten.net (8.8.8/8.6.12)with SMTP id HAA02293 for ; Mon, 25 Jan Subject: Heat treating question - how much is too much? List, I normally heat treat per the Powell method described on this list along while back: 250* for 1-1/2 to 20 hours300* for 1 hour375* for 30 minutes I heat treat oversized, rough planed sections in my Neuneman style heatgun driven oven. This usually results in a nice honey colored caneunder the flaming. (am I over doing it?) Last night, SWMBO summoned me and while doing her bidding, I lost trackof time and cooked my cane 20 minutes longer than normal. The resultingsplines are milk chocolate brown, even after planing a pass or two overthe splines. They flex fine, but what are the problems associated withover cooking? I suppose I'll finish planing and glue up the blanks, butI was wondering what the general consensus (is there such and animal onthis list?) is regarding the point of no return on heat treating andwhat the results will be. Brittleness? What? Anyhow, your answerswould be appreciated. Rick C. P.S. Thanks for the responses to the adhesives poll. I was suprised bythe lack of responses using Nyatex. from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Jan 25 08:16:26 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Rodmakers Listproc Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll I have only made about a half-dozen rods. All have been nodeless withTitebond II for the splices and resorcinol for gluing strips. I did sometesting of the heat resistance of the Titebond before using it. I wassurprised that I scorched strips before I could get a joint to let go. I have used resorcinol for other projects. The only problem that I have hadwith it is that joints are weak of there are gaps. I've not had problemswith rods and would be surprised to get a gap large enough to cause aproblem, but then I have only done a half-dozen rods. I've not foundcleanup to be a problem, soap and water will take it off if it hasn't dried.It does really dry your skin. The thing I particularly like about it isthat you can see the glue lines easily so the rods are easy to straighten:-). Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:08 AM Subject: Adhesive Poll OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on whichadhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what youlike anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some othersout there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon anadhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I'veused except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans upwell. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanksonce theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could getbetter atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one waspretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding.I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant totaking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I'vebeen extremelypleased. Rick from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Mon Jan 25 08:34:30 1999 0500 Subject: Oven, etc. Most of the time I've spent building this first rod has been taken upwith building the tools with which to build it. I must say, virtuous asthis makes me feel, I wish I had the scratch to just go out and buy theequipment so I could spend my time with the bamboo. I don't see how mycraftsmanship in future rods will have been measurably enhanced by thetime I've spent building forms, for example, which otherwise could havebeen spent working directly with the material. Anyway, now I'm making my oven. I think I want to use Wayne's design,because (a) I'm cheap and (b) I have an old 1000 watt space heater Ithink I can disassemble for its heating element. My questions are: (1)Is the space heater apprpriate for this purpose? (2) If so, do I haveto extract the heating element, or can I just stick the whole thing inthe oven, after replacing the thermostat of course? (3) If not, wheredo I get a heating element, and how much do they cost - I've tried localappliance repair shops and no one can sell me a straight heatingelement. (4) In Wayne's book, he cautions that you should usesuitablyheat-resistant wire for wiring the thing up - what kind of wireis this, and where do I get it? (5) Would it be cheaper just to buy aheat gun and a couple lengths of pipe and make an air-flow oven? (Asusual, cost-effectiveness is a primary consideration.) Lastly, for what it's worth, an opinion. My father was a potter - madehis living making pottery and teaching others how to make it. His stuffwas beautiful, expressive of his personality, and functional. If youever referred to what he did as "art", he would get this look on hisface that indicated he might find it difficult to take seriouslyanything you might ever say in the future. On the other hand, if yousaid it was "just" a craft, he would give you the same look. IMHO, thisexaltation of "art" over "craft" is part of the toxic legacy of 19thcentury Romanticism. from Turbotrk@aol.com Mon Jan 25 09:46:09 1999 Subject: test test from BThoman@neonsoft.com Mon Jan 25 10:02:31 1999 Terence Ackland Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll Highland Hardware is located in Atlanta and has almost everything a rodbuilder needs. They have urac and resorcinol in small batches but don'tcarry much. I was going to buy some but the two containers looked liketheyhad been on the shelf for quite some time so I went with a G2 epoxy onshelfabove. Never had a problem with it although now I'm using Nyatex becauseitwill handle much higher temperatures. Their website is http://highland-hardware.com. They also have powderedcarnauba wax for making a rod polish as well as 2500 grit sandpaper. And,they carry all of the Lie-Nielson line. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod Companyhttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 -----Original Message-----From: Art Port [SMTP:anglport@con2.com]Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:13 PM Cc: Rodmakers ListprocSubject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis,I don't think you'll find URAC "locally" until and unless you move to IronMountain Mich. The Nelson Paint Co ( located there) and HighlandHardwareare the only two purveyors of it in under 50 gal drums that I'm aware of(Highland has a catalog---I think they're in the southeast).Take care,Art At 01:51 PM 1/23/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin,Texas.I haven't excluded it however. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Mon Jan 25 10:08:45 1999 10:06:52 -0600 R8.30.00.7) Subject: listserve vs usenet This is just a gentle reminder for those in chatty mode to remember that this is a listserve targeted at bamboo rodmaking. If you are used to UseNet newgroups, there is a tendency to post frivolously because the message load (for most- not true for all) is pretty easily handled using todays web browsers. This is not true with email. Even if not read, I have to mark and delete the messages which takes up time. These messages are intermixed with my business email so I cannotcarte blanche delete a day or weekends worth. Admittedly, I do not use digest mode because it is easier for me to track the threads and respond if I would feel the need. When I first joined the list it was still very on-track in technical discussion of rodbuilding. There were not all that many messages each day. This has changed and at one time even resulted in the loss of some of the more experienced and productive list members for a while due to the lack of quality posts that comprised the majority of the list traffic. If the list is slow, be patient. This is the way it was previously. If you are addicted to messages coming in, join flyfish@ listserve. You will get overwhelmed. Another point to consider is that all of these messages end up in the archives. When I first joined the list I read all of the previous archives, copying out for my notebook what was helpful. There was an immense amount of information there. I would hesitate to read the archives now because of the low 'power fiber' content when looked at as a percent of the total messages. Even the annotated archives require somebody's time to weed out the chaffe. When I post, it is for a need or to contribute. When I feel the desire to post a witty comeback or riposte, I consider if I would want to read that in the archives and I don't do it. Even this message gives me second thoughts. As a final thought, this message is not meant to be a criticism of any particular messages. Personally, I thought the art vs craft thread was good even if not technical. Remember, this is not the UseNet. It was conceived as a place for discussion among serious pursuers of the craft/art of bamboo rodmaking. Just think if your post is really of any merit before you push "send". Thanks.Jon McAnulty P.S. In the spirit of this post, PLEASE do not let this message spawn a thread which will mainly degenerate into grousing. If you agree with this, don't reply at all or use private email. from bills@nwlink.com Mon Jan 25 11:05:17 1999 Subject: Twenty-five best tapers boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0081_01BE4841.419DFE60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BE4841.419DFE60 What ever happened to the "Twenty five or thirty best taper" list? Hot =and heavy postings for a while then it just died. Was the list =finalized or did it just come to an end because of the question =concerning criteria for nominating a "best taper"? If final, could the =list be posted one more time?Just curious.Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BE4841.419DFE60 What ever happened to the = thirty best taper" list? Hot and heavy postings for a while then it = question concerning criteria for nominating a "best = final, could the list be posted one more time?Just curious.Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BE4841.419DFE60-- from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Jan 25 11:17:30 1999 Subject: Abrasive Hi Gang, Thought you might be interested in a new (to me) source of abrasivematerial in grits from 1500 to 12000. It is available in 3"x6" flexiblesheets for $1.75 each from Micro Finishing Products, Inc. Box 818 Wilton,Iowa 52778. Their phone no. is (319) 732-3240 and their email address issalesms@netin.net. I find it excellent for any high polishing workincluding ferrule fitting. One of the unique features of this material isthat it is washable and can be then used over again. Ray from jefffly@choice.net Mon Jan 25 11:29:18 1999 MAA24866 Subject: Snake Guides boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE485E.20A59200" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE485E.20A59200 I was wondering if the list members have a preference in one snake guide=manufacturer over another. I have personally used Perfection and H&H. =Until just recently I thought that the H&H guides were the best made =guides, but I am re-thinking this after this last batch. I have =also purchased the "Snake Maker" tool from Dave LeClair and I am =practicing making my own. Is there another source of guides that I = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE485E.20A59200 I was wondering if the list members have a = snake guide manufacturer over another. I have personally used Perfection = H&H. Until just recently I thought that the H&H guides were the = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE485E.20A59200-- from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Mon Jan 25 11:31:47 1999 0500 Subject: Sage SP+ Just an FYI on the Sage SP+...it is actually Sage's fastest rod...the LL is the slowest... from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Jan 25 13:30:03 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: forms Ed,I couldn't agree more. I remember one rod builder looking down his noseatanother who didn't make his own reel seats and then asking him where heobtained his ferrules! If someone makes his own planing forms my hat'soff tohim. I have enough trouble tuning up the ones I've purchased.:- )Regards,Hank W. from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Jan 25 13:38:16 1999 (5.5.2232.9) Rodmakers Subject: RE: Twenty-five best tapers The list of 25 tapers is up to 37. I have lost track of some of thenominators, but I think this is the complete list of rods. Bill Lamberson Young Driggs Tony Young Dell Coppock Young Para 15 Tony Young Tom Smithwick Young Midge Tony Young Davy Riggs Young Perfectionist Carsten Jorgensen Sir D Tony Young Steve Trauthwein Garrison l93 Alex Garrison 212E Tom Smithwick John Zimny Garrison 221 Garrison 201E Rob Hoffhines Leonard 50 Rob Hoffhines Leonard 38H 7' #4 Anonymous Leonard model 50 1/2, 8 1/2ft 3pc 5wght Payne 98 Rob Hoffhines Payne 200 Rob Hoffhines Max Satoh Granger Special Steve ( from Tom Maxwell) Cross Bataviakill Davy Riggs Cross Sylph Dell Coppock F. E. Thomas Browntone Light Trout Davy Riggs FE Thomas 71/2 4wt Rob Hoffhines Orvis Flea Anonymous Hardy C. C. deFrance or Tarantino Davy Riggs Kretchman 6' 6" #3 Reed Curry Heddon 9' 2 * F 3 pc # 7/8 Don Burns Farlow made Norm Thompson 6' 2 *" 2 pc # 4/5 Don Burns Dawn Holbrook 8.5' tapers for a #7 or #8 lines Rob Nielsen Thramer 6' 472Dx Chris McDowell A.J. Thamer's 8' Dx John Channer Winston Little Feller Winston 8' #7 Dell Coppock Dickerson 8013 John Channer Hardy Perfection Carsten Jorgensen Merritt Hawes 9ft 3pc 6wght Alan Grombacher Mike Clark 8ft 2pc 6wght Alan Grombacher John Zimny Model 98 7 ft quad Bill Fink Reed Curry P&M Ritz Parabolic PPP Colorado 7'7" #5 Morten Lovstad Chris Bogart's Shenandoah Supreme #4 Max Satoh -----Original Message----- Subject: Twenty-five best tapers What ever happened to the "Twenty five or thirty best taper" list? Hot andheavy postings for a while then it just died. Was the list finalized or didit just come to an end because of the question concerning criteria fornominating a "best taper"? If final, could the list be posted one moretime?Just curious.Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 25 14:46:28 1999 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS I was not taking it it seriously either, I just have a strange sense ofhumour.Regards, Terry caneboy wrote: Golly Terence, I was goofin' around. Terence Ackland wrote: consider me spanked, grouchboy caneboy wrote: Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercialwithRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (andyou haveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making theirown bamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurryanyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though,and had agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists(in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despitewhat everyonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothis foryou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get theseforms doneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neitherwould Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley facesort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 25 14:59:02 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... I do not expect my expect my opinions to be graven on stone tablets onthislist.The fun is getting guys like you to come out from under their stones.Best regards, Terry Jack Dale wrote: You're an engineer. Try inventing a switch that will engage your brainbefore your mouth (or typing skills) can engage. Perhaps not all youropinions are worthy of being graven on stone tablets. Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Christian _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 25 15:17:26 1999 Subject: Re: Art Cane rods all look pretty much the same to me cowboy Jack Dale wrote: If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Jan 25 15:28:25 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0100 Subject: Propane style heat treating oven boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE48B2.B8D38100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BE48B2.B8D38100 Browsing through my own archives, snipped from the list, I realised that =I might be the only person, who use a heat treating oven, propane style. =So this is for all You guys flaming culms: An oven "driven" by a propane =torch. The advantage, as compared to free style flaming: More even =flaming, and more control. It is simply a 3 feet piece of stove pipe with asbestos string all =around it, and a hole in the midle. Pipe and string can be had at Your =friendly local hardware store, or whereever You=B4d by a stove. Point the propane burner through the hole and let it blast for 5-10 =minutes, until it=B4s HOT inside. Then move the culm, propane still on, =forwards and backwards, rotating it at the same time. Reverse the culm =and do it all over again. Result: nice even colouring and a culm, heat =treated all through. Do use gloves. regards, Carsten> from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 25 15:56:54 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Richard,all the rod makers are working to strict dimensional and heat treatmenttolerances, there is not much room for artistic interpretation in a fishingrod. Take a leisurely look through the rod makers archives when you get time,most ofour "Artists" were newbies a couple of years ago asking newbie questions.If you need a really nice guy to help you wet the babies head, give me acall. Iknow where to get some draught Bass.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: I've been sitting back reading this discussion about art vs craft. I'm sureI'm as subjective about this subject as the next person but here are mytwocents worth: I have a university degree in fine arts and another in music, two of thehigh arts as they say. I've painted, sculpted, composed, and performedrecitals. I'm also a software developer, student of Aikido (a Japanesemartial art), brew all-grain beer, and now make bamboo rods. Truth is, Iseeno difference in any of these passions. I can see no line in the sandbetween any of these endeavors being art or craft. I believe the notion ofart vs craft is a typical Western construct. We are obsessed witheverythinghaving a polar opposite. I think this mental paradigm is largely based onour focus on the object that results from the effort, rather than theprocess to create. A disproportionate number of my fellow music colleagues becameprofessionalsoftware developers. Both music and software have strong mathematicalroots.Simply look at certain Baroque musical scores and you'll see as manynumberson the page as you will musical notes (figured bass, a type of shorthanddesignating what the harpsichord player should be doing). We've all beenmoved by a beautiful musical passage, but, I've also seen programmersmoved Humans create. They create not only because they need things butbecauseanything you create is an expression of who you are. It's our way ofsayingthis is me, whether in music, or in wood. The objects we make areextensionsof ourselves. Viewed this way, there is no difference whether you arecreating a sculpture or a child is creating a sand castle. A few years ago, the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts put on a show aboutbeautiful automobile designs. The show was a big hit. People came indrovesto view this new art. These were machines built on a production line. Doyouvalue your car more knowing that it may someday be in a museum? Isyour FordEscort now art because a museum says so? Forget about putting the object into an art or craft pigeon hole. Doeverything you do with care and precision. Beautifully invented,designed,and constructed objects are all around us. They are all the expressions ofsomeone who approached their creations with care. Richard from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Jan 25 17:21:58 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0100 Subject: Propane style heat treating oven Being asked to supply more facts about "my" heat treating oven, here it is: 3 feet of stove pipe, or any other iron pipe, diameter som 8 inches. Thepipe is open in both ends. The thicker the wall of the pipe, the better. Onecould probably use a cement pipe of the sewer type, if it could stand theheat. Making only 2 piece rods, I cut the culm into two 6 feet pieces. The propane torch MUST be a biggie, able to generate a lot of heat. Theoven has got to be HOT. When treating the 1/2 culm, the secret is to keep the culm moving backand forth, while rotating at the same time. This insures no scorching oftheculm, and You get a completely even heating/colouring of the culm. Needles to say, I did not invent this method. It's an old one here inDenmark.It's low tech, it's bloody efficient and cheap. KISS, You know. regards, Carsten from gaff@carol.net Mon Jan 25 17:57:36 1999 Subject: shoulder bolts revisited listers,i purchased my shoulder bolts today.to all who suggested sources, my profound thanks.wil from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Jan 25 19:42:33 1999 don") by eeyore.eon.net withSMTP id ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:42:10 -0700 Subject: Art vs Craft Guys/Gals, Got discussing the art vs craft thread with my wife who is a potter - shesuggested if the item is made to be useful - it was done by a craftsman - things made to be looked at and not useful were art.Best definition I've seen so far. Don from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Jan 25 19:45:28 1999 Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:33:38 -0500 ,, Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ferrule Fit =_NextPart_000_01BE48A1.EB010640" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A1.EB010640 I'm not entirely certain what Tim might have in mind as concerns theissueof using thread as an under-wrap for ferrule fit. On the one hand, if onewere really after a complete fit under the ferrule, then enough cane wouldneed to be removed to result in a perfect dowel-form. This done, thenpresumably the thread would be used to build the diameter back up againtothe I.D. of the ferrule in question. My question here would be; whyremove good cane only to replace it with thread? You would be sacrificingthe REAL strength made available by the cane for the sake of theTHEORETICAL strength you might have with a perfect ferrule fit. At theoutset, I wouldn't think the latter could possibly make up for the loss ofthe former, and doesn't appear to be a sensible trade. On the other hand, if one did NOT remove enough cane to obtain a perfectdowel-form, then the thread underwrap would follow the hexagonalcorners ofthe section and we would remain where we were in the first place. Frankly,I don't think the question of imperfect fit at a ferrule station is aproblem. A really tight slip-fit over each of the six corners, filled withgood epoxy, provides an entirely secure ferrule. Take particular care,however, to taper the serrated flats of the ferrule, and to clean theinside with steel wool and laquer thinner before gluing. You'll be fine. Stop worrying; be happy! Cheers, Bill ----------From: Tim Chafor rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; iank@nelson.planet.org.nzSubject: Re[2]: Ferrule FitDate: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:40 AM What are your thoughts on using thread as an under wrap? Tim ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Ferrule FitAuthor: iank@nelson.planet.org.nz at InternetDate: 23/01/99 07:08 Bob, Just one further coment in addition to Waynes advice , which as usual is well thought out and helpful . A number of British rods makers used the technique of building up therodat the ferrule section by glueing thin strips of cane over the rod at that point. They then turned the built up section down to achieve a perfectly round section but with the original rod cross section still intact . An " oversized" ferrule was then used.I have a british book on rodmaking fromthe 1950's with a diagram showing how to do this although it is fairingsimple. The only problem is it does not say how to make the strips which is thehard part . I can fax you a diagram if it is of any interest to you . regards Iank At 12:15 AM 22/01/99 EST, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote: Bob - There are 2 schools of thought on how a ferrule should fit. Received: from wugate.wustl.edu (128.252.120.1) bymlhst.wavetech.com with SMTP(IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000707E6; Fri, 22 Jan 9912:23:01-0600 Received: from iank.nelson.planet.org.nz (iank.nelson.planet.org.nz 199907:08:09 +1300Message-Id: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:08:09 +1300 Sender: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduFrom: Ian Kearney rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Ferrule FitMime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: iank@mail.nelson.planet.org.nzX-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A1.EB010640 I'm not entirely certainwhat =Tim might have in mind as concerns the issue of using thread as an = after a complete fit under the ferrule, then enough cane would need to = presumably the thread would be used to build the diameter back up again = would be sacrificing the REAL strength made available by the cane for =the sake of the THEORETICAL strength you might have with a perfect = possibly make up for the loss of the former, and doesn't appear to be a =sensible trade.On the other hand, if one did NOT remove enough =cane to obtain a perfect dowel-form, then the thread underwrap would =follow the hexagonal corners of the section and we would remain wherewe = slip-fit over each of the six corners, filled with good epoxy, provides = taper the serrated flats of the ferrule, and to clean the inside with =steel wool and laquer thinner before gluing.You'll be fine. = = = ______________________________ Reply Separator = = The only problem is it does not say how to make the strips which is the = = Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000707E6; Fri, 22 Jan 99 = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A1.EB010640-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Jan 25 19:50:43 1999 Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:44:03 -0500 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... =_NextPart_000_01BE48A3.5F022DC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A3.5F022DC0 Oh, please, PLEASE, Reed, spare us a "scholarly discussion" of Art andCraft. I have listened to that stuff for thirty-odd years (often, VERY odd years).I mean if you think WE have been a bunch of blowhards (which many of us have) just wait 'till the gang hears what the SCHOLARS have to offer... . Cheers, Bill ----------From: Reed Curry Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: rodmaking as art ...Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:10 PM Joe,Don't misunderstand my statement regarding semantics. I didn't say"simply"semantics, the fine points of language are important.Again we might do well to examine a scholarly discussion of Art andCraft.However, I'll try to regurgitate some of the suggestions posed thus far.Art is art because:1/ It performs no useful function (beyond providing somesubjectiveemotive touchpoint).2/ It includes an element of "magic". (Why does a Tintorettoevoke certainsimilar feelings in many people?)3/ It cannot be fully taught. (Admittedly, most artistsstudied underothers, "the school of"; but all will admit that some aesthete must be from theindividual itself.)Cane rods1/ Perform a useful function.2/ Seldom have that "magic", though some do.3/ Look at the disciples of H.L Leonard; they all went on tomake names Edwards]. I guess, Joe, that we must each judge for ourselves; but itbaffles me thatthe question (Cane rods: Art or Craft?) has value."Show me the Rod". That I can understand.Best regards,Reed "Joseph S.Kallo" wrote: Reed,While I agree that we aren't likely to "solve" this--these sortof thingsdon't work out to nice solutions--I disagree that this is simply amatterof semantics. Art and craft share some common basis, but its prettyclearthat the ceiling of the Cistine chapel isn't craft and the vinesculptedsanta clauses at the local fair isn't art (vine art maybe). Making rodsdoes occupy that really interesting grey area inhabited by pottery andothers. The master craftsman's work in this area seems to besomethingwewant to call art. But if its a craftsman making the artwork we want tosaythe craftsman "has an art" rather than "is making art"--why the changeinlanguage though? Really interesting stuff. Best,Joe At 10:52 AM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics.WhenWendell Castle sells a hall table, whether made by him or anapprentice,it is usually considered the work of a craftsman. When Mr Castlecarves,as part of the "piece", a Stetson resting on said table and a scarfdraped over the table... it is art. Go figure...We aren't going to solve this. One way to further confuse theissueis to attempt to inject spiritual aspects to wood and glue. (Unlessyouuse hide glue.)) Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of theperformer; this was the debacle of the '60s and '70s... "my emotion isart". What is significant in rodmaking is not what thecraftsman/artistputs INTO the rod, but the performance (and to some small degree,appearance) of the finished product. I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my$.02. Best regards,Reed Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale---- --=_NextPart_000_01BE48A3.5F022DC0 Oh, please, PLEASE, Reed, = = =we might do well to examine a scholarly discussion of Art and = = includes an element of "magic". (Why does a Tintoretto evoke = others, "the school of"; but all will admit that some aesthete = = = = occupy that really interesting grey area inhabited by pottery = =an art" rather than "is making art"--why the change = Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of = University at Carbondale ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A3.5F022DC0-- from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Mon Jan 25 19:59:19 1999 UAA15278 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:56:52 - 0500 Subject: oven for seth Seth,I just ordered a mica heat strip unit today $80.00Contact me at RZBG79a@prodigy.com for particulars from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Jan 25 20:31:28 1999 Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:24:15 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... =_NextPart_000_01BE48A8.FC690840" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A8.FC690840 Thank God for Richard's good sense on the artsy-fartsy business. Richard, you have pricked the bubble of our collective delusions about this stuff. A distinction between art and craft is only just possible (given certain,limited contexts for discussion), but that distinction, ultimately, isfutile and serves only to foster the notion that we can (or "should" be able to) adequatelydefine creative processes -- and then to weigh one against another. But my question is: why should we WANT to do that in the first place? What intellectual, practical or aesthetic project do we have in mind whenwe seek such an "architecture" of terminology? Why valorize one (art) anddenigrate the other (craft)? What cultural or psychological needs arebeing met when we engage inthe pursuit of distinctions like these? One explanation has been thatthis is, alas, little more than the "toxic legacy" of late nineteenthcentury Romanticism. Entirely plausible, to my mind. Another explanationhas been that we are really only recapitulating (even if unwittingly) theWestern World's market-driven need to justify and quantify productivity. Also entirely plausible, to me. But however one cares to see it, one simple fact remains obvious: MUCH ISPERCEIVED BY US TO BE AT STAKE! That, to me, is more remarkable than any of the particulars of the discussion itself. Something is deeplystirred -- something more important, even, than the issue of art vs craft-- and judging by the volume of articulate, impassioned and sometime indignant responses,itmay be even more important than our shared interest in bamboo rods. Thedebate seems to have a great deal to do with how we are to understand andto participate in our own culture. Yet nobody has thought to say soexplicitly -- that is, not until Richard's last post. THAT is whatinterests me about all the discussion. And that is why I'm sticking with Richard all the way on this one. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: RE: rodmaking as art ...Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 2:35 PM I've been sitting back reading this discussion about art vs craft. I'msureI'm as subjective about this subject as the next person but here are mytwocents worth: I have a university degree in fine arts and another in music, two of thehigh arts as they say. I've painted, sculpted, composed, and performedrecitals. I'm also a software developer, student of Aikido (a Japanesemartial art), brew all-grain beer, and now make bamboo rods. Truth is, Iseeno difference in any of these passions. I can see no line in the sandbetween any of these endeavors being art or craft. I believe the notionofart vs craft is a typical Western construct. We are obsessed witheverythinghaving a polar opposite. I think this mental paradigm is largely based onour focus on the object that results from the effort, rather than theprocess to create. A disproportionate number of my fellow music colleagues becameprofessionalsoftware developers. Both music and software have strong mathematicalroots.Simply look at certain Baroque musical scores and you'll see as manynumberson the page as you will musical notes (figured bass, a type of shorthanddesignating what the harpsichord player should be doing). We've all beenmoved by a beautiful musical passage, but, I've also seen programmersmoved Humans create. They create not only because they need things butbecauseanything you create is an expression of who you are. It's our way ofsayingthis is me, whether in music, or in wood. The objects we make areextensionsof ourselves. Viewed this way, there is no difference whether you arecreating a sculpture or a child is creating a sand castle. A few years ago, the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts put on a show aboutbeautiful automobile designs. The show was a big hit. People came indrovesto view this new art. These were machines built on a production line. Doyouvalue your car more knowing that it may someday be in a museum? IsyourFordEscort now art because a museum says so? Forget about putting the object into an art or craft pigeon hole. Doeverything you do with care and precision. Beautifully invented,designed,and constructed objects are all around us. They are all the expressionsofsomeone who approached their creations with care. Richard------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A8.FC690840 Thank God for Richard'sgood = certain, limited contexts for discussion), but that distinction, = = do we have in mind when we seek such an "architecture" of = when we engage inthe pursuit of distinctions like these? = explanation has been that we are really only recapitulating (even if =unwittingly) the Western World's market-driven need to justify and = to me, is more remarkable than any of the particulars of the = more important, even, than the issue of art vs craft -- and judging by =the volume of articulate, impassioned and sometime indignant =responses, it may be even more important than our shared interest in = = nobody has thought to say so explicitly -- that is, not until Richard's = sitting back reading this discussion about art vs craft. I'm = high arts as they say. I've painted, sculpted, composed, and = craft is a typical Western construct. We are obsessed with = A disproportionate number of my fellow music colleagues became = = designating what the harpsichord player should be doing). We've all = =of ourselves. Viewed this way, there is no difference whether you = your car more knowing that it may someday be in a museum? Is your = Forget about putting the object into an art or craft pigeon hole. = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE48A8.FC690840-- from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 25 20:37:42 1999 216.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: RE: Art vs Craft Isn't music useful? Different music is composed for different reasons:marching music inspires troops for battle, hymns are written to helpcreatea religious environment for worship, easy-listening music is written toprovide a relaxing backdrop for dinner parties, etc. Richard -----Original Message----- Andersen Subject: Art vs Craft Guys/Gals, Got discussing the art vs craft thread with my wife who is a potter - shesuggested if the item is made to be useful - it was done by a craftsman - things made to be looked at and not useful were art.Best definition I've seen so far. Don from rcurry@top.monad.net Mon Jan 25 21:21:40 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... boundary="------------F3875BB5AD0544E0BFBA09DD" --------------F3875BB5AD0544E0BFBA09DD Bill,No problem. Consider it done.Best regards,Reed WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Oh, please, PLEASE, Reed, spare us a "scholarly discussion" of Artand Craft. --------------F3875BB5AD0544E0BFBA09DD Bill, Best regards,ReedWILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Oh, Craft. --------------F3875BB5AD0544E0BFBA09DD-- from thramer@presys.com Mon Jan 25 21:49:10 1999 0000 Subject: Uncle! Awright! I give! I need to get back to crafting or arting or whateverA.J.Thramer from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jan 25 22:06:00 1999 Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:05:28 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Uncle! A.J's right. This kind of discussion is impossible to answer and completlymoot outside a pub. Tony On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, A.J.Thramer wrote: Awright! I give! I need to get back to crafting or arting or whateverA.J.Thramer /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from SealRite@aol.com Mon Jan 25 22:21:40 1999 Subject: Bellinger beveler modification A couple of questions to fellow beveller users - has anyone ever thoughtaboutbuilding an adjustable form that expands/contracts with push/pull setscrewsto hold the wood template. Sort of like a smaller set of steel forms exceptsetting on its side. I am thinking you could mount a dial indicator next tothe cutting head to set the forms instead of shims & drill bits - set thefirst station, lock the template, move slide over, etc. Secondly, does anyone know where to purchase another flat mill cutter forcutting the templates Craig Anderson402-430-4375 from rfairfie@cisco.com Mon Jan 25 23:33:25 1999 dunkel.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA26498 for; Subject: Straightening with heat... Folks, I glued up a butt section this weekend with Nyatex, and wascompletely frustrated in myefforts to straighten the section while the epoxy was still workable. Rolling the section on aflat surface, bending and allowing the section to relax--nothing worked. Ihave heard a numberof you say that you use a heat gun to heat and straighten the blank. Howhot do you get it?Does the technique work for taking the long swoops out of the section? How long do you have tohold the blank in position once it's been heated and bent to the desiredshape? Can I do thisbefore thermal setting the Nyatex glue job? I still have the binding threadon the blank, soI'm hoping it won't delaminate during the heating process. I would reallyappreciate any wordsof wisdom on this matter. I have had most of my success (read straight sections) when I havestarted with bamboo with verysmall sweeps between the nodes. Node straightening is pretty straightforward (I use the vicetechnique); do I need to take the sweeps out of the sections before heattreating and planing? Thanks for your help. Roger from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 26 08:49:11 1999 ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: dental floss There is one dental floss you may be interested in. The manufacturer isGore. This is the people who make the material for the breathable waders.They got their start making expanded teflon RF cable. I just ran a test onthe dental floss and it is teflon. My heat gun is not as hot as most ofyours but it will char bamboo if held at the nozzle. The Gore dental flosswithstood it as if it were cool air. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from saweiss@flash.net Tue Jan 26 09:32:21 1999 Subject: Art vs Craft boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01BE4906.5F922FC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BE4906.5F922FC0 All,Since I started this thread, maybe it's time to let it rest.It has stirred people. My last (I hope) remark on it is that some people =take themselves too seriously. I think it's more important to take the =quality of your work seriously and lighten up about yourself.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BE4906.5F922FC0 All,Since I started this thread, maybe= let it rest.It has stirred people. My last (I = on it is that some people take themselves too seriously. I think it's = important to take the quality of your work seriously and lighten up = yourself.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BE4906.5F922FC0-- from rfairfie@cisco.com Tue Jan 26 11:10:21 1999 dunkel.cisco.com (8.8.4-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA08709; Tue, 26Jan 1999 09:08:43 -0800 Subject: Re: dental floss All, I believe that it's called Glide, and sells for about $3.50 for 50 yards. It's availableat most drug stores. Thanks,Roger At 08:45 AM 1/26/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:There is one dental floss you may be interested in. The manufacturer isGore. This is the people who make the material for the breathablewaders.They got their start making expanded teflon RF cable. I just ran a test onthe dental floss and it is teflon. My heat gun is not as hot as most ofyours but it will char bamboo if held at the nozzle. The Gore dental flosswithstood it as if it were cool air. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Tue Jan 26 12:04:55 1999 with ESMTP id AAA2393; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:03:40 +0100 Subject: Hand Mill arrived boundary="------------BF17BE5A075D449DF52DF108" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- BF17BE5A075D449DF52DF108 Dear Tom Thank good - the hand mill is arrived here in Switzerland. This Moment ihave no time to chek if all needed parts are inside the boxes, i hope tocontrol it within the next days. One thing - a compliment - must i say now: Your handmill is packed very professional, will say, all looksprofessional, simply custom-like.On the first look seems all to be o.k., i`ve seen a lot of other things from other manufacteres, also from manufacterers who made planingforms. The manual looks also very professional, think simple to read and use. That`s all for now, i`m a bit in rush, will tell you soon about my fistexperiences with the mill. Cordially from Switzerland Stefan --S. Grau`s * atelier edelweiss *Gespliesste Angelruten _ Bamboo RodsAlpine Fliegenfischerschule & GuidingAlpine Flyfishing School & Guiding Brunnadernstr. 11 3006 Berne/SwitzerlandPhone: ++41 (0) 31 352 42 88 ab 19.00 / from 7.pme-mail: gespliesst@bluewin.ch --------------BF17BE5A075D449DF52DF108 name="gespliesst.vcf" filename="gespliesst.vcf" begin:vcard n:* atelier edelweiss *;S. Grau`s url:http://members.tripod.com/Bamboorods/default.htmadr:;;Brunnadernstr. 31;Berne;Switzerland;3006;Switzerlandversion:2.1email;internet:gespliesst@bluewin.chfn:Bamboo Rods - gespliesste Angelrutenend:vcard --------------BF17BE5A075D449DF52DF108-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Tue Jan 26 14:11:02 1999 Subject: Hand Mill How do I find more information about the Hand Mill? from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Jan 26 15:09:11 1999 QAA171808;Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:09:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Art vs Craft =_NextPart_000_01BE4946.1DCD8860" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4946.1DCD8860 Amen, to Steve's request to let this matter "lie in state." I'm done withit too. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Art vs Craft All, Since I started this thread, maybe it's time to let it rest. It hasstirred people. My last (I hope) remark on it is that some people takethemselves too seriously. I think it's more important to take the qualityof your work seriously and lighten up about yourself. Steve ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4946.1DCD8860 Amen, to Steve's request to= 26, 1999 7:32 AMAll,Since =I started this thread, maybe it's time to let it rest. It has stirred =people. My last (I hope) remark on it is that some people take =themselves too seriously. I think it's more important to take the =quality of your work seriously and lighten up about yourself. Steve ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4946.1DCD8860-- from rodgers@jessie.nor.nuwc.navy.mil Tue Jan 26 15:43:47 1999 8.6/SMI-SVR4) Subject: Tonkin cane I have recently purchased George Maurer's new book. It recommends buyingtonkin cane of 2 1/2 to 3 inch diameter. I have checked the severalsourcesof cane and their max size is 2 to 2 1/2 inches in diameter. What should Iexpect to find and is the 2 to 2 1/2 inch size what I should buy? Thanks,Dan from gl@msrr.dmso.mil Tue Jan 26 16:28:27 1999 triton.dmso.mil (8.8.5/8.7.3) withSMTP id RAA20184 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 Subject: co bootstrap does anyone know of co bootstrap is still doing business? their phonedoesn't answer, and their e-mail seems to be bouncing. tks.--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.) from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Tue Jan 26 18:20:20 1999 TAA15276 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:17:29 - 0500 Subject: oven for seth The number for HI-Watt is (810)415-9260 call and ask for Meme, tell her you need the mica strip heater for rod building. She will know the part number from pyork@ipa.net Tue Jan 26 18:24:41 1999 Subject: Re: dental floss At 5:10 PM -0000 1/26/99, Roger L. Fairfield wrote: Are you considering using it for your final binding during the glueprocess?If so, is it waxed? Have you tried varnishing a blank that's been boundwith Glide? ...Paul All, I believe that it's called Glide, and sells for about $3.50 for 50yards. It's available at most drug stores. Thanks,Roger At 08:45 AM 1/26/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:There is one dental floss you may be interested in. The manufacturer isGore. This is the people who make the material for the breathablewaders.They got their start making expanded teflon RF cable. I just ran a testonthe dental floss and it is teflon. My heat gun is not as hot as most ofyours but it will char bamboo if held at the nozzle. The Gore dentalflosswithstood it as if it were cool air. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 26 18:24:44 1999 Subject: Re: Art vs Craft You have given me an idea Richard. If Klezmer music effects everyone as iteffects me it could be piped into washrooms.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: Isn't music useful? Different music is composed for different reasons:marching music inspires troops for battle, hymns are written to helpcreatea religious environment for worship, easy-listening music is written toprovide a relaxing backdrop for dinner parties, etc. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu AndersenSent: Monday, January 25, 1999 8:45 PM Subject: Art vs Craft Guys/Gals, Got discussing the art vs craft thread with my wife who is a potter - shesuggested if the item is made to be useful - it was done by a craftsman- things made to be looked at and not useful were art.Best definition I've seen so far. Don from jfoster@gte.net Tue Jan 26 18:57:34 1999 Subject: archives mac-creator="4D4F5353" The archives should be re-linked and up to date..let me know aboutdiscrepancies jer from jcole10@juno.com Tue Jan 26 19:00:17 1999 19:54:40 EST Subject: Fw: WARNING!!!!! Received the following message this morning from the University ofTennessee.Beware---this is the real thing John Cole This is from IBM not an urban legend WARNING!!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titiled..JOIN THE CREW... /for PENPALSDO NOT open it!!!!! It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letterout to as many people as you can....this is a new virus and not manypeople know about it!! This information was received this morning PENPAL appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you areinterested in a penpal.....but by the time you read this letter itis TOO late. The Trojan horse virus will have already infected theboot sector of your harddrive, destroying all the data present. It isa self-replicating virus, and once the message is read it willAUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address ispresent in your box!!! This virus will destroy your hard drive and holds the potentialto DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your box andwhose mail is in their box and so on and on!!!!!! So delete any message titled PENPAL or JOIN THE CREW.......thisvirus can do major DAMAGE to worldwide networks!!!! PLEASE PASS THIS ALONG TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS AND PEOPLE IN YOURMAILBOXES......... AOL..... HAS SAID THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS VIRUS AND THERE IS NOREMEDY FOR THIS........ FORWARD IT TO ALL YOUR ON- LINEFRIENDS...............A.S.A.P.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from FlyTyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 26 19:46:25 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04166 for ;Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:48:09-0600 Subject: Need info. Is there anyone in Charlotte N.C that can give me some info. Contact meoff list.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from mrj@aa.net Tue Jan 26 20:14:21 1999 Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:14:03 -0800 Subject: RE: WARNING!!!!! NOT!!! Do not forward this hoax! Go to this site and check it out for yourself.This is a hoax and not a virus! There are a lot of these going around andthe only virus is this message it's self. There are also a LOT of places tocheck up on these virus's before sending out warnings. Just do a searchusing the word "hoax". http://www.nltoy.fi/services/support/hoax/join.asp Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Fw: WARNING!!!!! Received the following message this morning from the University ofTennessee.Beware---this is the real thing John Cole This is from IBM not an urban legend WARNING!!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titiled..JOIN THE CREW... /for PENPALSDO NOT open it!!!!! It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letterout to as many people as you can....this is a new virus and not manypeople know about it!! This information was received this morning PENPAL appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you areinterested in a penpal.....but by the time you read this letter itis TOO late. The Trojan horse virus will have already infected theboot sector of your harddrive, destroying all the data present. It isa self-replicating virus, and once the message is read it willAUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address ispresent in your box!!! This virus will destroy your hard drive and holds the potentialto DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your box andwhose mail is in their box and so on and on!!!!!! So delete any message titled PENPAL or JOIN THE CREW.......thisvirus can do major DAMAGE to worldwide networks!!!! PLEASE PASS THIS ALONG TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS AND PEOPLE IN YOURMAILBOXES......... AOL..... HAS SAID THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS VIRUS AND THERE IS NOREMEDY FOR THIS........ FORWARD IT TO ALL YOUR ON- LINEFRIENDS...............A.S.A.P.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from moran@lincoln.midcoast.com Tue Jan 26 20:23:43 1999 (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA11316; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:23:30 -0500 Subject: Re: lie-nielsen planes boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE4971.F01E4400" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE4971.F01E4400 I like the Lie-Nielsen skew angle plane and use it for most of my =planning except for the final passes. Sean Moran-----Original Message-----From: James Wilcox Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 10:46 PMSubject: lie-nielsen planes bill harms is right. the little lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. =i have the one with the replacable throat pieces. it's their #103SP. =while you're at it you guys should try their new 9 1/2 block plane. it =fits your hand like a glove. the control it gives you is outstanding. =they are indeed expensive, but these two planes make a system that is =unbeatable. regards, jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE4971.F01E4400 I like the Lie-Nielsen skew angle= -----Original = rodmakers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, January 22, 1999 10:46 PMSubject: lie-nielsen = planes lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. i have the one with the = wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BE4971.F01E4400-- from jczimny@dol.net Tue Jan 26 20:29:53 1999 Subject: Re: dental floss Do not heat Teflon. Over 1900 degrees F. It gives off several nasty gaseswhichcause a respiratory problem called Teflon Pneumonia. It should be OK atnormalcooking temperatures. But, a really hot torch may well be hot enough tocauseit to vaporize.John Z Onis Cogburn wrote: There is one dental floss you may be interested in. The manufacturer isGore. This is the people who make the material for the breathablewaders.They got their start making expanded teflon RF cable. I just ran a testonthe dental floss and it is teflon. My heat gun is not as hot as most ofyours but it will char bamboo if held at the nozzle. The Gore dental flosswithstood it as if it were cool air. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 26 20:31:54 1999 ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap(V1.3) Subject: Re: dental floss Hi Paul,Yes, I do use it in the binding process but it is not my primary bindingmaterial. I use a lacing technique that old time electronics techniciansused to tie wiring harnesses together in the days of vacuum tubes. I lacethe blank together with Glide, straighten it then bind it. I've used thistechnique on five rods with no trouble. I don't think there is any wax onthe teflon. I don't heat treat with the Glide on but rather I remove itand the old binding and rebind after the epoxy has cured. It's left noresidue on the rods and they have finished OK. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com At 5:10 PM -0000 1/26/99, Roger L. Fairfield wrote: Are you considering using it for your final binding during the glueprocess?If so, is it waxed? Have you tried varnishing a blank that's been boundwith Glide? ...Paul All, I believe that it's called Glide, and sells for about $3.50 for 50yards. It's available at most drug stores. Thanks,Roger At 08:45 AM 1/26/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:There is one dental floss you may be interested in. The manufacturer isGore. This is the people who make the material for the breathablewaders.They got their start making expanded teflon RF cable. I just ran a testonthe dental floss and it is teflon. My heat gun is not as hot as most ofyours but it will char bamboo if held at the nozzle. The Gore dentalflosswithstood it as if it were cool air. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from moran@lincoln.midcoast.com Tue Jan 26 20:38:38 1999 (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA14571; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:38:15 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE4973.FF8F4A40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE4973.FF8F4A40 Bill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium with the =atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. I use =URAC for glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have a =moisture content of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want the =splines to be bone dry. I heat treat after final planning and wait 6-24 =hours before gluing to allow some moisture to creep back in. I don't =know what other glues need for moisture content for a good bond. =Sean Moran-----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Rodmakers (E-mail) Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 12:46 PMSubject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know about = of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod for =finishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about this =issue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about =preparation for the glue-up stages. We have been told by various builders that it is very important to =drive or draw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing =(or, again, to do the same before finishing). But I wonder how = I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as =possible for purposes of attaining the best bond for the glue -- or, =later, the best bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be what =the discussion, as I have heard it, is about. Instead, the worry seems =to be about the "dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the =fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain "soft" in its =action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), = no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture =content of wood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always =equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to = Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be = out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture =content. Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is =what's called "free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound to =migrate both in and out as the ambient humidity changes. And, =surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this =process from continuing for the life of a fly rod. The same is true for =furniture, of course. Wood continues to "work" from one season to the = As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by =the same process, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's =anything we can do ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run. =So, I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is=truly dried and "cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on =Richard's question. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PM My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about =one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of =tung oil since I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later =will work with the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry =geographic area (Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a =humid January thaw. So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entry =into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for now and give it another =heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high =a temperature and for how long? Thanks in advance, Richard =richard.nantel@videotron.ca (514) = ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE4973.FF8F4A40 Bill,I agree that the wood orbamboo = equilibrium with the atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will= = a moisture content of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want= Sean Moran -----Original = Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sunday, January 24, 1999 12:46 PMSubject: Re: = non-varnished blank know about the effects of humidity and resultant moisture = be asked about preparation for the glue-up stages.We have = possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, to do = surfaces as dry as possible for purposes of attaining the best bond = trapping unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, and thus = will always equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT = as much as it can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the = only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called "free water." = modern poly varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for = given fly rod's action will be affected by the same process, I = couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT = hear more thinking on Richard's question.Cheers, Bill----------From: = Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PMMy first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for = to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of = since I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will = with the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic = (Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January = should I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should = varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and = ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01BE4973.FF8F4A40-- from tom1015@webtv.net Tue Jan 26 23:04:02 1999 105.iap.bryant.webtv.net 281.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id 281.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/mt.gso.26Feb98) ETAtAhUAt4zPU009R2vVD3au4jD3pveYeiECFBUALzIQmdIL4HeP8fq8X3YvGysz Subject: Re: Duracane Jan1999 10:05:16 -0500 from saweiss@flash.net Wed Jan 27 00:02:39 1999 Subject: Payne taper boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE497F.F5658D20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE497F.F5658D20 All,Does anyone have the taper for a Payne 204L?Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE497F.F5658D20 All,Does anyone have the taper for a = 204L?Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BE497F.F5658D20-- from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Wed Jan 27 07:54:38 1999 0500 Subject: what a great bunch you are I know it's frowned upon to waste bandwidth with mere expressions ofgratitude, but thanks to everyone who came forward with helpful answersto my post about ovens. It is really wonderful. from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed Jan 27 09:09:33 1999 Subject: Oven Has anyone used round duct for a mica strip oven? With good or badresults? from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Jan 27 10:28:31 1999 Subject: Re: Oven My oven is made of double wall gas pipe, 8"' dia. with removable end caps. I think it is called 'B' vent. You can buy this sheet metal pipe at HomeDepot. I built it about 20 years ago with an electrical coil element froman old kitchen oven, and planned to fill the wall space with vermiculite put it away for 10 years. A few years ago I replaced the coil element withone of Waynes strip heaters and now it works fine. I wrapped the pipewith insulating bubble wrap, also from Home Depot, and use an electronictemperature probe to check the temperature at three locations along theoven. You do get some temperature variation at diferent points,especially when you remove the end cap to rotate the sections, but with alittle experimentation you can live with these.From: Thoman, Brian Subject: OvenDate: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:06 AM Has anyone used round duct for a mica strip oven? With good or badresults? from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jan 27 11:15:19 1999 (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id RAA20907 for ;Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:15:09GMT 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: RE: Oven Having been involved with ovens for a few years I have seen themmade with both squareand round ductwork.Grand Technologies and I worked out a deal with Watlow a few yearsago so that they(Grand Tech) could sell the mica strip heater used for bamboo ovensoutside their normal salesarea with out getting into trouble with Watlow. FYI - Grand Technologiesjust moved into a largebuilding so there is new contact information - the new phone is 616 - 656- 0866.An insight thing - the screen shelf needs to be flat - if there arerolls or twists inthe support screen it will transmit those flaws to the rod sections -which may explain some ofthe comments of how these things just appear. from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jan 27 11:27:23 1999 (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id RAA21411 for; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:27:07GMT 12:17:13 -0500 Subject: Oven Seth -I have seen electric ovens constructed from both round and squareductwork. Grand Technologies has moved recently - they are my local Watlowrep - Watlow allowsthem to sell this heater outside their normal sales area with out gettinginto trouble. Insight - make sure that the screen shelf is flat - if it has rolls ortwists in it theywill cause the rod sections to pick up these flaws from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Jan 27 13:31:19 1999 Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:31:05 -0500 ,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4A01.96E89440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A01.96E89440 Thanks to Karen and Sean for their thoughts on atmospheric moisture. How about the others of you? I read, rather repeatedly, that one needs toguard unglued strips (and just-glued sections) with desiccants to protectagainst moisture migration. Or, that one should keep the cane warm towardoff the "dangers" of humidity. I have even heard that one shouldn't build rods during thewarm, humid summer months because of moisture absorption. To me, none of this would seem to be necessary -- even FUTILE, in theend. I know, for example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, never oventreated, never used desiccants, and built his rods ONLY in the summertime-- on a picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. His rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built byanyone. So, what's the point of all this concern? Am I missing something? Cheers, Bill---------- Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Bill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium with theatmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. I useURAC for glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have amoisturecontent of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want the splines to bebone dry. I heat treat after final planning and wait 6-24 hours beforegluing to allow some moisture to creep back in. I don't know what otherglues need for moisture content for a good bond. Sean Moran - ----Original Message----- ;Rodmakers (E-mail) > Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know about theeffects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation We have been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, todo the same before finishing). But I wonder how important, in practice,this actually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be what the discussion, as Ihave heard it, is about. Instead, the worry seems to be about the"dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, andthus building a rod that will remain "soft" in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), isthat no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentofwood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalize itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by theusual, lengthy drying process, the "bound water" has been driven out andthese cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture content. Anyremaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound to migrate both inand out as the ambient humidity changes. And, surprisingly, not even ourmodern poly varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for thelifeof a fly rod. The same is true for furniture, of course. Wood continuesto "work" from one season to the next, and no finish can prevent theprocess. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we cando ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run. So, I wonder howmuch one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and"cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one totwo weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oilsince I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will workwith the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw.So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior tovarnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and forhowlong? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A01.96E89440 Thanks to Karen and Sean me, = rods ONLY in the summertime -- on a =picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. = Sean = = blankDate: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 6:36 PMBill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will =reach equilibrium with the atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish= after final planning and wait 6-24 hours before gluing to allow some = nbsp;Sean Moran -----Original =Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS <HARMS1@prodigy.net= 12:46 PMSubject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished =blankHello all,Here's a = effects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a = about preparation for the glue-up stages.We have been told by =various builders that it is very important to drive or draw out all =possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, to do the = have surfaces as dry as possible for purposes of attaining the best bond = within =the fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain = no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture = =equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to = much as it can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the "bound = moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called "free = surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this = action will be affected by the same process, I really couldn't say, but =I don't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT that , either in the = worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and = to hear more thinking on Richard's question.Cheers, =Bill----------From: Richard= blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PMMy first rod is glued up. I won't be =able to varnish it for about one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to =give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm not sure whether the =varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'm located in =what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) but we're =suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should I be concerned =about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for =now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple of = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A01.96E89440-- from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Jan 27 14:08:05 1999 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank I know, for example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, neveroventreated, never used desiccants, and built his rods ONLY in thesummertime-- on a picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. His rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built byanyone. So, what's the point of all this concern? Am I missing something? I had heard of this also, so I tried it. I made a blank with no heattreatmentat all. The blank took and held sets like you wouldn't believe. In fact Icouldinduce multiple sets. Looked like an S. Perhaps if the bamboo had been stored for 25 years or longer it would have worked, but I doubt it. In my experience bamboo has to be heat treated in some way to make a rod. Darryl from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Wed Jan 27 14:20:13 1999 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:19:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Snake Guides boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE490D.138A8440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE490D.138A8440 REC buys H&H for the regular guides. I know they also carry Mildrum =strippers though. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Arnold Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 8:26 PMSubject: Snake Guides I was wondering if the list members have a preference in one snake =guide manufacturer over another. I have personally used Perfection and =H&H. Until just recently I thought that the H&H guides were the best =made guides, but I am re-thinking this after this last batch. I =have also purchased the "Snake Maker" tool from Dave LeClair and I am =practicing making my own. Is there another source of guides that I = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE490D.138A8440 REC buys H&H for the regular= know they also carry Mildrum strippers though.Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod = Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) =277- 4510www.munrorodco.com -----Original = =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= GuidesI was wondering if the list members have a = one snake guide manufacturer over another. I have personally used = and H&H. Until just recently I thought that the H&H guides = Maker" tool from Dave LeClair and I am practicing making my = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE490D.138A8440-- from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Wed Jan 27 14:34:58 1999 14:33:00 -0600 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank and Vince M. rods --simple boundary Bill Harms wrote: some text snipped......I know, for example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, never oven treated, never used desiccants, and built his rods ONLY in the summertime -- on a picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. His rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built by anyone. So, what's the point of all this concern? Am I missing something? ------------------------------------------------- ---------Bill,Another interesting thing about Vince Marinaro's rods (unrelated tohumidity) was that in his book "Ring of the Rise" he presses the point that it was important to have a certain amount of pith (at least the transition areawhere the power fibers are separated by the pith material) in the center of the hexagon. He even has a picture of what he considered the ideal strips. He presented an argument that the mechanical characteristics of thecompressible pith were advantageous in some way. Possibly because the center isprimarily under compression rather than tension and perhaps it gave way in someway. It always struck me as a bit of hand waving that I wasn't entirely able to understand but interesting nonetheless. I found this interesting as well in light of the current emphasis on having power fibers all the way throughthe strips to maximize strength.Vince seemed to be quite an innovator. Hard to assess the merit of all ofit, though. Jon McAnulty --simple boundary Thanks to Karen and Sean for their thoughts on atmosphericmoisture. repeatedly, that one needs protect against off the one shouldn't build rodsduring the warm, humid summer months because of moisture absorption. example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, never oven treated,never used desiccants, summertime -- on a picnic !s rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built by anyone. richard.nantel@videotron.ca; Rodmakers (E-mail) blankDate: Tuesday, January26, 1999 6:36 PMBill,I agreethat the wood or bamboowill reach equilibrium with the atmospheric moisture and no amount ofvarnish will prevent that. have a moisture content ofbetween 7 &!! treat after finalplanning and wait 6-24 hours before gluing to allow some moisture to bond. -----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS PMSubject:Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankHelloall,Here's !! effects of humidity too, would like to might as easily beasked about preparation for the glue-up stages.We have been told that it is very important to drive or draw out all possible moisture fromthe strips before important, in important to have surfacesas dry as possible for purposes of attaining the best bond for the glue --or, later, the best the discussion, as I have "dangers" ! its action.My matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture content ofwood (or, presumably, whatever the AMBIENT been reduced as much asit can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the "bound driven out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." out as the ambient varnishes can prevent thisprocess from continuing for the life of a fly rod.  !! one season to the next, and no finish can prevent the process. extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the same process, Ireally couldn'tsay, but I don't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT that , either inthe short or the long humidity once the cane is truly anxious to hear more blankDate: Saturday, January 23,1999 8:34 PMMy first rod is glued up. I won't beable to varnish it forabout one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats oftung oil since I'mnot sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with theoil. I'm located in whatis usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) but we'resuddenly experiencing ahumid January thaw. So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entryinto the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior tovarnishing in a couple ofweeks? If so, how high a temperature and for how long? --simple boundary-- from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Wed Jan 27 15:00:11 1999 Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:59:42 GMT "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Thank goodness for business trips boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE4A33.AE0C9400" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE4A33.AE0C9400 Has anyone put together a database of sources throughout the world for =different items?As the world gets smaller and we all seem to travel more, even if its =within our own countries, it seems a good idea to be able to check what = Tim-----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel Date: 18 January 1999 19:25Subject: Thank goodness for business trips I just found out I'm being flown across the continent in late =February for a 5-day conference in Seattle. Are there any places there I =should visit for rod-making supplies or of interest to a budding bamboo =rodmaker? I'd love to bring home a bale of cane from Andy Royer's place =but that darn overhead luggage rule... Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE4A33.AE0C9400 Has anyone put together adatabase = throughout the world for different items?As theworld = and we all seem to travel more, even if its within our own countries, it = good idea to be able to check what is likely to be in the area that you = -----Original = Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= 18 January 1999 19:25Subject: Thank goodness for = trips just found out I'm being flown across the continent in late February = 5-day conference in Seattle. Are there any places there I should = rod-making supplies or of interest to a budding bamboo rodmaker? I'd = bring home a bale of cane from Andy Royer's place but that darn = luggage rule... Thanks, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE4A33.AE0C9400-- from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Wed Jan 27 15:38:05 1999 1999 21:36:38 UT 16-1998)) id86256706.00769BBB ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:35:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank and Vince M. rods Actually, as it turns out, the center of the rod is not under muchcompressionor tension. The centerline is actually the neutral axis and is not subject tostress at all. I've always wondered (and suspected) that the pith may act as a dampingagent,much like rubber coating on some machinery parts, or the rod treatmentOrvis is(was?) giving their Trident (I believe) rods. This may enhance a rod'saction byreducing vibration / oscillation at the end of a cast. Best regards,-Ed Estlow ----------------------------------------------------------Bill,Another interesting thing about Vince Marinaro's rods (unrelated tohumidity)was that in his book "Ring of the Rise" he presses the point that it wasimportant to have a certain amount of pith (at least the transitionareawhere the power fibers are separated by the pith material) in the center of thehexagon. He even has a picture of what he considered the ideal strips. Hepresented an argument that the mechanical characteristics of thecompressiblepith were advantageous in some way. Possibly because the center isprimarilyunder compression rather than tension and perhaps it gave way in someway. Italways struck me as a bit of hand waving that I wasn't entirely able tounderstand but interesting nonetheless. I found this interesting as well inlight of the current emphasis on having power fibers all the way throughthestrips to maximize strength.Vince seemed to be quite an innovator. Hard to assess the merit of all ofit,though.Jon McAnulty from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Jan 27 18:05:10 1999 TAA168288;Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:05:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank and Vince M. rods =_NextPart_000_01BE4A27.DD664680" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A27.DD664680 Yes, indeed that was Vince's thinking. We spent several years together inthe mid and late 1970's as he patiently taught me to build rods. His ideaat that time was that the pith might act as a sort of "shock absorber" inthe rod and dampen unwanted vibration. Neither of us knew to what extentthat might be true, but it has occurred to me that this effect would beabsolutely minimal since, in the planing of each strip, one "runs out" ofpith very soon in the taper. And, too, the area from the ferrule forwardthat wants dampening most desperately, would have nothing but powerfibersin any case. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank and Vince M. rodsDate: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 1:34 PM Actually, as it turns out, the center of the rod is not under muchcompressionor tension. The centerline is actually the neutral axis and is notsubject tostress at all. I've always wondered (and suspected) that the pith may act as a dampingagent,much like rubber coating on some machinery parts, or the rod treatmentOrvis is(was?) giving their Trident (I believe) rods. This may enhance a rod'saction byreducing vibration / oscillation at the end of a cast. Best regards,-Ed Estlow ----------------------------------------------------------Bill,Another interesting thing about Vince Marinaro's rods (unrelated tohumidity)was that in his book "Ring of the Rise" he presses the point thatit wasimportant to have a certain amount of pith (at least the transitionareawhere the power fibers are separated by the pith material) in the center of thehexagon. He even has a picture of what he considered the ideal strips. Hepresented an argument that the mechanical characteristics of thecompressiblepith were advantageous in some way. Possibly because the center isprimarilyunder compression rather than tension and perhaps it gave way in someway. Italways struck me as a bit of hand waving that I wasn't entirely able tounderstand but interesting nonetheless. I found this interesting as wellinlight of the current emphasis on having power fibers all the way throughthestrips to maximize strength.Vince seemed to be quite an innovator. Hard to assess the merit of all ofit,though.Jon McAnulty ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A27.DD664680 Yes, indeed that wasVince's = time was that the pith might act as a sort of "shock absorber"= =to what extent that might be true, but it has occurred to me that this =effect would be absolutely minimal since, in the planing of each strip, = most desperately, would have nothing but power fibers in any = = (was?) giving their Trident (I believe) rods. This may enhance a rod's = -----= = = hexagon. He even has a picture of what he considered the ideal strips. = = understand but interesting nonetheless. I found this interesting as well = seemed to be quite an innovator. Hard to assess the merit of all of = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A27.DD664680-- from Turbotrk@aol.com Wed Jan 27 18:22:05 1999 Subject: scrapping planes OK> I am not starting another venue. I would like to know if anyone hasusedthe scrapping plane sold by Japan Woodworker? It is made of brass androsewood. It sells for 24.35 each. I it looks like a quality tool and thesavings looks great. Stuart S. Miller from MasjC1@aol.com Wed Jan 27 19:23:43 1999 Subject: Re: Oven Brian, I've use round duct for the oven. 4" for the inner and 6" for the outer shellwith fiberglass insulation in-between. It works well. I've found that thetrick is to let the oven warn up to temperature for approximately 30minutes.I have to set the thermostat at approximately 400 degrees in order tohave areasonable stable 375 degrees. I'm only on my third rod and am stillexperimenting with the times. So far I've varied the time between theWaynerecommended 7 minutes and 9 minutes. At 7 minutes there is little colorchange at 9 the tips of the bundle are starting to char. 8 minutes may beabout right. Mark Cole from dmanders@telusplanet.net Wed Jan 27 20:29:12 1999 don") byedtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Wed, 27 Jan1999 19:28:51 - 0700 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank ,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Bill, According to a test that was done by the Forest Industry in the US - waxis about the only thing that will keep moisture out of wood for anylength of time - some finishes seemed to attract moisture [ tung oil].Plastic finishes were about the best other than wax. So, no matter whatyou coat the rod with - moisture will eventually find its way in. Don At 02:30 PM 1/27/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Book AntiquaThanks to KarenandSean for their thoughts on atmospheric moisture. How about the others of you? I read, rather repeatedly, that one needsto guard unglued strips (and just-glued sections) with desiccants toprotect against moisture migration. Or, that one should keep the canewarm to ward off the "dangers" of humidity. I have even heard that one shouldn't build rods during thewarm, humid summer months because of moisture absorption. To me, none of this would seem to be necessary -- even FUTILE, in theend. I know, for example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, neveroven treated, never used desiccants, and built his rods ONLY in thesummertime -- on a picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. His rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built byanyone. So, what's the point of all this concern? Am I missing something? Cheers, Bill 0000,8080,8080---------- ffff,8080,c0c0moran@lincoln.midcoast.com0000,8080,8080> ffff,8080,c0c0HARMS1@prodigy.net0000,8080,8080;ffff,8080,c0c0richard.nantel@videotron.ca0000,8080,8080;Rodmakers (E- mail)ffff,8080,c0c0rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu0000,8080,8080> Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Bill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium withthe atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. Iuse URAC for glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have amoisture content of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want thesplines to be bone dry. I heat treat after final planning and wait 6-24hours before gluing to allow some moisture to creep back in. I don'tknow what other glues need for moisture content for a good bond. Sean Moran from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jan 27 21:05:19 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A45B3F14011E; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:07:07 EST Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Don,That's why its so handy to wax your cane rods occasionally. Sure, even athin wax coatingwill be worn through in places, but the wax provides sufficient hinderanceto moisturepenetration that changes don't occur quickly. By the time the rod wouldstart to increase to theambient moisture of summer, the season changes and things start dryingagain. Conversely, youdon't want the rod to dry out too much (a house with central heating inthis area can get below5% in midwinter), and the waxprevents that. As well, a light coat of wax cuts the flash from the rod thatmight scare fish.Best regards,Reed Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Bill, According to a test that was done by the Forest Industry in the US - waxis about the onlything that will keep moisture out of wood for any length of time - somefinishes seemed toattract moisture [ tung oil]. Plastic finishes were about the best otherthan wax. So, no matterwhat you coat the rod with - moisture will eventually find its way in. Don At 02:30 PM 1/27/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: from Nodewrrior@aol.com Wed Jan 27 22:23:52 1999 Subject: personal stuff for anybody who knows me! Friends,I'm happy to announce that I successfully married The Amazing Wendy onJan23rd!We honeymooned in Key West, but were let down by the bonefish!,.But I'vewonthe best friend and partner a man ever wished for...And she's a natural caster to boot! Rob Hoffhines from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Jan 27 23:17:55 1999 Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:17:33 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: personal stuff for anybody who knows me! Hang on to her! Tony On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 Nodewrrior@aol.com wrote: Friends,I'm happy to announce that I successfully married The Amazing Wendy onJan23rd!We honeymooned in Key West, but were let down by the bonefish!,.But I'vewonthe best friend and partner a man ever wished for...And she's a natural caster to boot! Rob Hoffhines /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 28 07:51:11 1999 IAA38306;Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:51:01 -0500 ,"Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4A9B.3FD284A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A9B.3FD284A0 Don, Thanks for your reply. The Forest Industry study is something of which Iwas unaware. But those findings seem to be pretty much what I had beenthinking too. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Don & Sandy Andersen Cc: Karen and Sean Moran ;richard.nantel@videotron.ca; Rodmakers (E-mail) Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 6:32 PM Bill, According to a test that was done by the Forest Industry in the US - waxis about the only thing that will keep moisture out of wood for anylength of time - some finishes seemed to attract moisture [ tung oil].Plastic finishes were about the best other than wax. So, no matter whatyou coat the rod with - moisture will eventually find its way in. Don At 02:30 PM 1/27/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Book AntiquaThanks toKaren andSean for their thoughts on atmospheric moisture. How about the others of you? I read, rather repeatedly, that one needsto guard unglued strips (and just-glued sections) with desiccants toprotect against moisture migration. Or, that one should keep the canewarm to ward off the "dangers" of humidity. I have even heard that one shouldn't build rods during thewarm, humid summer months because of moisture absorption. To me, none of this would seem to be necessary -- even FUTILE, in theend. I know, for example, that Vince Marinaro never flamed his cane, neveroven treated, never used desiccants, and built his rods ONLY in thesummertime -- on a picnic table in his screened porch, here in humid, Mechanicsburg, PA. His rods were (are) as crisp and lively as any that were ever built byanyone. So, what's the point of all this concern? Am I missing something? Cheers, Bill 0000,8080,8080---------- From: Karen and Sean Moran ffff,8080,c0c0moran@lincoln.midcoast.com0000,8080,8080> ffff,8080,c0c0HARMS1@prodigy.net0000,8080,8080; ffff,8080,c0c0richard.nantel@videotron.ca0000,8080,8080;Rodmakers (E- mail) ffff,8080,c0c0rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu0000,8080,8080> Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 6:36 PM Bill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium withthe atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. Iuse URAC for glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have amoisture content of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want thesplines to be bone dry. I heat treat after final planning and wait 6-24hours before gluing to allow some moisture to creep back in. I don'tknow what other glues need for moisture content for a good bond. Sean Moran ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A9B.3FD284A0 = = you coat the rod with - moisture will eventually find its way in. = = atmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4A9B.3FD284A0-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jan 28 08:57:52 1999 Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:55:15 -0600 Subject: Re: scrapping planes Stuart,I haven't used it, but Jack Howells recommends it highly in his book. way, if you want to save a few dollars, Jon Lintvet at Munro Rod Co.carries whatI think is the same plane. Only his is even a little cheaper, if I remembercorrectly. Try him at: http://www.munrorodco.com/Along the same line, do any of you avoid scraping altogether? On mylast fewrods I've noticed that with a REALLY sharp blade, and properly tunedforms, I getvery close to final dimensions without scraping, usually within .0005, orcloserthan I think I can measure accurately with a dial caliper. I do sometimesmake apass or two with the scraper to get the measurements even closer.So what about it? Am I the lone ranger, who wears a mask and mostlyuses aVery sharp plane instead of a silver bullet?Harry Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: OK> I am not starting another venue. I would like to know if anyone hasusedthe scrapping plane sold by Japan Woodworker? It is made of brass androsewood. It sells for 24.35 each. I it looks like a quality tool and thesavings looks great. Stuart S. Miller from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Jan 28 09:12:10 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id JAA13796; Thu, 28 Jan (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id Subject: Re: Snake Guides Jeff, I've been told that the Perfection guides have had quality controlproblems for several years. Maybe they are better now. I used H&Hwhich were nice except that the feet looked like they were ground They seem nice and the price is about 1/3 of H&H guides. If you order off Hook+Hackle's web page (www.hookhack.com) you get 20% off the catalog price. The catalog doesn't say they are PacBay but I askedand that is what they said. A year ago I ordered some guides and a reel seat from REC. It tookforever to get shipped, and the tip tops they sent had the jumbo sizeloops and the Mildrum stripping guides had incredibly thick carboloytubes (not rings). Not appropriate for a cane trout rod at all. Very nice reel seat though. Maybe they have their guide stock figuredout by now.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Jeff Arnold wrote: I was wondering if the list members have a preference in one snakeguide manufacturer overanother. I have personally used Perfection and H&H. Until just recently Ithought that the H&Hguides were the best made guides, but I am re-thinking this after this last batch. I have also purchased the "Snake Maker" tool fromDave LeClair and I ampracticing making my own. Is there another source of guides that I shouldlook at? REC? Jeff from RMargiotta@aol.com Thu Jan 28 09:39:23 1999 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Is the USFS study available online? --Rich from gaff@carol.net Thu Jan 28 10:10:44 1999 Subject: oops help,broke the tap off in my form.whats the proceedure for getting it out.boy! am i thanking you in advance,wil from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jan 28 10:34:35 1999 (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA14524 for ;Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:34:30GMT 11:24:33 -0500 Subject: RE: oops There are a couple of ways to remove broken taps - a speciallydesigned tool called anextractor - available in either a 3 flute or 4 flute pattern is one method.If you are of the Jack Pine type another method is to burn it out witha Oxy Ace torch -extreme caution is needed though - concentrate the flame on the tap -using a higher than normaloxygen mix - when 'cherry' hit the oxygen feed to burn it out - at all costdo not get thesurrounding metal any warmer (aka Hotter) than needed.Do not attempt to drive it out - the tap being harder than the CRSwill only tear outany exixting threads. from tom@cet-inc.com Thu Jan 28 10:39:01 1999 Subject: Re: scrapping planes Harry,I don't use a scraper much and when I do it is a $9 Sandvik cabinet scraper,more to see if I'm down to the forms rather than to remove much material.IfI don't get any shavings off with the scraper, the strip is finished. Thescraper also helps to "dress" the form and remove any small nicks, etc. (Idon't use a slotted plane).Tom-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: scrapping planes Along the same line, do any of you avoid scraping altogether? Am I thelone ranger, who wears a mask and mostly uses aVery sharp plane instead of a silver bullet?Harry from BThoman@neonsoft.com Thu Jan 28 11:13:18 1999 Subject: Plating There was mention on the list a while back about nickel plating for snakeguides. Has anybody tried the electroless nickel plating? There's a kitat: http://www.caswellplating.com/nsindex.htm Brian from amcsmith@nlis.net Thu Jan 28 11:17:11 1999 Subject: oops tough to do, if you don't have the stones to try the tourchbuy an approprietly sized easy out and a couple of titanium drill bits sized to fit the easy out i've got a snapon set thats pretty good. if you do try the tourch and screw upyou can drill an oversized hole in the form the smallest possibleand retap it at a larger size [to fit a threaded rod ]insert threaded rod covered with lock tight let dry and tryagain. also if you have a drill press you can get an grinding bit of the correct size type [read granger ]and slowley grind it out. there ain't no easey way to do this but it's doablechris smith ps. thank for the silk dennis h from darrell01@netzero.net Thu Jan 28 12:21:43 1999 (209.154.136.124) Subject: Re: Plating boundary="=PMail:=_0007@@A7bud7uNtdzGuXclxInI" --=PMail:=_0007@@A7bud7uNtdzGuXclxInI Just looked at this site... Their stuff looks great and site is well done..=. My question is same as Brian's has anyone tried the electrolless plating? Darrell=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Plating There was mention on the list a while back about nickel plating for snakeguides. Has anybody tried the electroless nickel plating? There's akitat: http://www.caswellplating.com/nsindex.htm Brian --=PMail:=_0007@@A7bud7uNtdzGuXclxInI-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 28 13:07:33 1999 Subject: Re: oops You can try to break the tap into small pieces with a small punch. Thisis possible if you have not gone too deep.If this fails, take the form to Tool Makers that have an EDM machine andthe can spark erode the tap out without harming the surrounding metal.T.Ackland w.d. gatliff wrote: help,broke the tap off in my form.whats the proceedure for getting it out.boy! am i thanking you in advance,wil from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 28 13:18:09 1999 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank 964EA2057700F0D67421D32B" --------------964EA2057700F0D67421D32B the 7-15% moisture content is not necessary on small sections such assplines and veneer. The 7-15% is required on large lumps of woodbecause there is a chance of the moisture being drawn out of theadhesive before the glue starts to polymerize.T. Ackland Karen and Sean Moran wrote: Bill,I agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium with theatmospheric moisture and no amount of varnish will prevent that. Iuse URAC for glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have amoisture content of between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want thesplines to be bone dry. I heat treat after final planning and wait6-24 hours before gluing to allow some moisture to creep back in. Idon't know what other glues need for moisture content for a goodbond. Sean Moran -----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS ; Rodmakers (E-mail) Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 12:46 PMSubject: Re: Humidity in non- varnished blankHello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants toknow about the effectsof humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing arod for finishing. I, too, would like to hear what youfolks think about this issue. Actually, the question mightas easily be asked about preparation for the glue-up stages. We have been told by various builders that it is veryimportant to drive or draw out all possible moisture fromthe strips before gluing (or, again, to do the same beforefinishing). But I wonder how important, in practice, thisactually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dryas possible for purposes of attaining the best bond for the> glue --or, later, the best bond for the varnish. But thisseems NOT to be what the discussion, as I have heard it,is about. Instead, the worry seems to be about the"dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the fibersof a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain "soft"in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furnituremakers), is thatno matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting themoisture content of wood (or, presumably, bamboo) thematerial will always equalize itself according to whateverthe AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much asit can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the "boundwater" has been driven out and these cells will remainforever stable in terms of moisture content. Any remainingmoisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound tomigrate both in and out as the ambient humidity changes.And, surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes canprevent this process from continuing for the life of a flyrod. The same is true for furniture, of course. Woodcontinues to "work" from one season to the next, and nofinish can prevent the process. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will beaffected by the same process, I really couldn't say, but Idon't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT that , eitherin the short or the long run. So, I wonder how much oneneeds to worry about humidity once the cane is truly driedand "cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking onRichard's question. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PM My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it forabout one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it acouple of coats of tung oil since I'm not sure whether thevarathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'mlocated in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humidJanuary thaw. So, should I be concerned about moisturere-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for nowand give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in acouple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for howlong? Thanks in advance, Richardrichard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --------------964EA2057700F0D67421D32B the 7-15% moisture content is not necessary on small sections such assplines becausethere is a chance of the moisture being drawn out of the adhesive beforethe glue starts to polymerize.T. Ackland Karen and Sean Moran wrote: agree that the wood or bamboo will reach equilibrium with theatmospheric glue and the reccomendations are for the wood to have a moisture contentof between 7 & 15% for glueing so you don't want the splines to be before Sean Moran-----OriginalMessage-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS<HARMS1@prodigy.net> <richard.nantel@videotron.ca>;Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, January 24,199912:46 PMSubject: Re: Humidity innon-varnishedblankHelloall, Here's effectsofhumidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod for Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation for theglue-up stages. Wehave been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, practice, this actually is. I shouldthink it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible forpurposesof attaining the best bond for the glue -- or, later, the best bond for discussion, action. My is thatnomatter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture content of itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens tobe. Oncethe cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by the out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what'scalled migrate not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this process fromcontinuing can prevent the process. Asto the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the cane istrulydried and "cured." Jump Richard'squestion. Cheers,Bill ----------From:Richard Nantel <richard.nantel@videotron.ca> Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Subject:Humidity in non-varnished blankDate:Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PM Myfirst rodis glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to two weeks.I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm notsure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil.I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal,Canada)but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should I beconcernedabout moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for nowand give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple ofweeks? Thanks in richard.nantel@videotron.ca< (514) 485-2287 --------------964EA2057700F0D67421D32B-- from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 28 13:35:10 1999 smtp.clarityconnect.comwith ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.1a3); Thu, 28 Jan 199914:32:55-0500 (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:15:33 -0500 Subject: Re: scrapping planes Sure have...sold a bunch too. The only draw back is weight. The scraper isso light you really have to bear down on the strips. On a side note...can someone please explain the mechanics of using ascraperproperly. If you are using a #212 the back of the blade does the work?What angle are people sharpening the blade to? What is the seating angleinthe plane? Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: scrapping planes OK> I am not starting another venue. I would like to know if anyone hasusedthe scrapping plane sold by Japan Woodworker? It is made of brass androsewood. It sells for 24.35 each. I it looks like a quality tool andthesavings looks great. Stuart S. Miller from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 28 13:41:06 1999 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank 09BC627F015F2D832FF1B81B" --------------09BC627F015F2D832FF1B81B William,remember, a cane rod is a dynamic casting tool, not a piece offurniture. One need to look at other finishes besides furniture and boatfinishes.T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know aboutthe effectsof humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked aboutpreparation for the glue-up stages. We have been told by various builders that it is very important todrive or draw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing(or, again, to do the same before finishing). But I wonder howimportant, in practice, this actually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry aspossible for purposes of attaining the best bond for the glue -- or,later, the best bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be whatthe discussion, as I have heard it, is about. Instead, the worryseems to be about the "dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture withinthe fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain "soft"in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers),is thatno matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentof wood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalizeitself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be driven out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms ofmoisture content. Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN thecells, and is what's called "free water." It is only THIS moisturethat is bound to migrate both in and out as the ambient humiditychanges. And, surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes canprevent this process from continuing for the life of a fly rod. Thesame is true for furniture, of course. Wood continues to "work" fromone season to the next, and no finish can prevent the process. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by thesame process, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there'sanything we can do ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run.So, I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the caneis truly dried and "cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PM My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about oneto two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tungoil since I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use laterwill work with the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, drygeographic area (Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing ahumid January thaw. So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entryinto the blank? Should I ignore the blank for now and give it anotherheat treament prior to varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, howhigh a temperature and for how long? Thanks in advance, Richardrichard.nantel@videotron.ca (514)485-2287 --------------09BC627F015F2D832FF1B81B William, furniture. One need to look at other finishes besides furniture and boatfinishes.T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Helloall, Here's effectsofhumidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod for Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation for theglue-up stages. Wehave been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, practice, this actually is. I shouldthink it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible forpurposesof attaining the best bond for the glue -- or, later, the best bond for discussion, action. My is thatnomatter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture content of itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens tobe. Oncethe cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by the out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what'scalled migrate not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this process fromcontinuing can prevent the process. Asto the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the cane istrulydried and "cured." Jump Richard'squestion. Cheers,Bill ----------From:Richard Nantel <richard.nantel@videotron.ca> Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Subject:Humidity in non-varnished blankDate:Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PM Myfirst rodis glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to two weeks.I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm notsure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil.I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal,Canada)but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should I beconcernedabout moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for nowand give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple ofweeks? Thanks in richard.nantel@videotron.ca< (514) 485-2287 --------------09BC627F015F2D832FF1B81B-- from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Thu Jan 28 14:28:48 1999 Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:27:35 GMT Subject: Re: oops All these work, spark erosion is without doubt the best as you cansometimesget away with little thread damage.There is also another way if the broken end of the tap is flush with thesurface or about 1mm either way. Get a small nut and place it over theholeso that you can see the tap through the centre. Tack weld it to the top ofthe tap (if its snapped down in the hole this obviously doesn't work). Onceits tacked and cooled check yr clear of the surrounding mat'l and thencomplete some more tacks. Lots of easy out oil and patience with either aring spanner (preferable) or a crescent (open ended). DO NOT use a socket square to the tap axis. With luck and an angel on your shoulder it'll easeout (had to do many of these in my apprenticeship!!). Once its started youmay find that a short wind in will clear some swarf and help it ease outwithout binding again - we use to turn two faces of the nut outwards(anticlock) and then one back in (clockwise).Good luck!Tim.-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: oops You can try to break the tap into small pieces with a small punch. Thisis possible if you have not gone too deep.If this fails, take the form to Tool Makers that have an EDM machine andthe can spark erode the tap out without harming the surrounding metal.T.Ackland w.d. gatliff wrote: help,broke the tap off in my form.whats the proceedure for getting it out.boy! am i thanking you in advance,wil from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jan 28 14:51:38 1999 0600 Subject: Product News (to me, at least) Friends,Two new products you might want to check out; and I haveabsolutely no financial interest with either one.Bob Venneri's reel seats are easily the most attractive I haveever seen. The knurling is flawless, the polish is superb, andthe finish on the beautifully burled wood fillers is perfect.Also, they are less expensive than any NS I've seen on themarket. I've used REC, Bellinger, Pac Bay, Struble, and those Imade myself. I'm stuck on Bob's, and will probably use his stuff from now on.Second, A company called Products 2000 markets a gizmo called"Sup-r Sander." Jerry Foster told me about this product, and Ihesitated ordering one. I wish I would have taken Jerry's adviceimmediately. I've just finished three blanks, and only used a fewpasses with 400 and 600 grit sandpaper to have them ready forvarnish. What the product consists of is a carbide grit bonded toa flat sheet of stainless steel. It comes with coarse, medium,and fine grits, and the fine is just right for removing enamel andglue residue. The nice thing is it's supposed to last forever.No more spending more per rod on sandpaper than on bamboo. JerryFoster has mentioned it on the list before, but it desrvesmentioning again.Again, no financial interest, just trying to be helpful. Harry from fiveside@net-gate.com Thu Jan 28 14:52:44 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01716 for ;Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:52:20 Subject: Humidity and heat To the List,I won't join in on the details of the humidity/heat treatment discussionbut one thing I am sure of. Some form of heat treatment is essential. LikeDarryl, but many years ago, using pre WWII cane I made a rod with zeroheattreating. When you bent it it stayed bent. That's an experience I don't wantto repeat. Beyond that I build only when the heat in the house goes on. Lowhumidity, don't you know. Besides I fish in spring, summer and fall( andmaybe tomorrow). Bill from rclarke@eou.edu Thu Jan 28 15:34:53 1999 Subject: Fw: Product News (to me, at least) I agree that Bob's stuff is great! Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Harry Boyd Subject: Product News (to me, at least)Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 12:49 PM Friends,Two new products you might want to check out; and I haveabsolutely no financial interest with either one.Bob Venneri's reel seats are easily the most attractive I haveever seen. The knurling is flawless, the polish is superb, andthe finish on the beautifully burled wood fillers is perfect.Also, they are less expensive than any NS I've seen on themarket. I've used REC, Bellinger, Pac Bay, Struble, and those Imade myself. I'm stuck on Bob's, and will probably use his stuff from now on.Second, A company called Products 2000 markets a gizmo called"Sup-r Sander." Jerry Foster told me about this product, and Ihesitated ordering one. I wish I would have taken Jerry's adviceimmediately. I've just finished three blanks, and only used a fewpasses with 400 and 600 grit sandpaper to have them ready forvarnish. What the product consists of is a carbide grit bonded toa flat sheet of stainless steel. It comes with coarse, medium,and fine grits, and the fine is just right for removing enamel andglue residue. The nice thing is it's supposed to last forever.No more spending more per rod on sandpaper than on bamboo. JerryFoster has mentioned it on the list before, but it desrvesmentioning again.Again, no financial interest, just trying to be helpful. Harry from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Thu Jan 28 15:57:25 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level310) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:55:51 EST Subject: Re: scrapping planes Jon, If you have access to a library, there is an excellent article onscraper planes and how to use them in issue No. 123 of Fine Woodworking(a1998 issue, I think). The mechanics of use, angles, maintenance and so onare all covered. --Bob. At 01:19 PM 1/28/99 -0500, you wrote:Sure have...sold a bunch too. The only draw back is weight. The scraper isso light you really have to bear down on the strips. On a side note...can someone please explain the mechanics of using ascraperproperly. If you are using a #212 the back of the blade does the work?What angle are people sharpening the blade to? What is the seating angleinthe plane? Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- From: Turbotrk@aol.com Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:24 PMSubject: scrapping planes OK> I am not starting another venue. I would like to know if anyone hasusedthe scrapping plane sold by Japan Woodworker? It is made of brass androsewood. It sells for 24.35 each. I it looks like a quality tool andthesavings looks great. Stuart S. Miller Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from darrell01@netzero.net Thu Jan 28 16:33:12 1999 (199.174.233.238) Subject: Re: Fw: Product News (to me, at least) boundary="=PMail:=_0011@@9H4BCOAlOMCU0eou6dY0" --=PMail:=_0011@@9H4BCOAlOMCU0eou6dY0 Hey, don't compliment Bob V's stuff... he's on the list and reads theseposts and two things may happen... 1) he'll have to buy new, bigger hatsand 2)he's gonna raise his prices... I've already placed my order though..=..:-) Darrell L.=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Fw: Product News (to me, at least) I agree that Bob's stuff is great! Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu ----------From: Harry Boyd Subject: Product News (to me, at least)Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 12:49 PM=Friends,Two new products you might want to check out; and I haveabsolutely no financial interest with either one.Bob Venneri's reel seats are easily the most attractive I haveever seen. The knurling is flawless, the polish is superb, andthe finish on the beautifully burled wood fillers is perfect.Also, they are less expensive than any NS I've seen on themarket. I've used REC, Bellinger, Pac Bay, Struble, and those Imade myself. I'm stuck on Bob's, and will probably use his stuff from now on.Second, A company called Products 2000 markets a gizmo called"Sup-r Sander." Jerry Foster told me about this product, and Ihesitated ordering one. I wish I would have taken Jerry's adviceimmediately. I've just finished three blanks, and only used a fewpasses with 400 and 600 grit sandpaper to have them ready forvarnish. What the product consists of is a carbide grit bonded toa flat sheet of stainless steel. It comes with coarse, medium,and fine grits, and the fine is just right for removing enamel andglue residue. The nice thing is it's supposed to last forever.No more spending more per rod on sandpaper than on bamboo. JerryFoster has mentioned it on the list before, but it desrvesmentioning again.Again, no financial interest, just trying to be helpful.=Harry --=PMail:=_0011@@9H4BCOAlOMCU0eou6dY0-- ________________________________________________________NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?Get your FREE Internet Access and Email athttp://www.netzero.net/download.html from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jan 28 18:52:08 1999 Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:51:56 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4AF7.92A1B000" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4AF7.92A1B000 I was speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish forfurnitureand/or boats. What rods, boats and furniture have in common is aninternalcell-structure that will retain water ("bound moisture") if not driven out some form of heat treatment. Rods, boats and furniture, alike, will thenbecome stable in terms of inner cell-structure moisture migration. Ambienthumidity can no longer move into these cells once the material has beencured -- neither can repeated dunkings (even of unfinished wood or cane)affect the moisture content of cured cell-structure. What rods, boats and furniture also have in common, however, is potential moisture," and it can also be driven out, but only temporarily. Ultimately, free moisture can neither be kept in nor kept out of thefibrous material between these cells, and rods, boats and furniture willall try to equalize with whatever the ambient humidity happens to be,despite any and all efforts to prevent that process. In this latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with a boat orpiece of furniture) is some finish that will retard this process as much aspossible. The fact that a fly rod is, indeed, a dynamic casting tool,just as you say, Terry, does not alter the picture at all. All finishesare equally applicable to all three (rods, boats and furniture), and allwill produce nearly identical results as far as protecting the surfacesbeneath are concerned. That we cast a rod or sit on a chair is irrelevant.Finishes will do (and not do) what they will do. And so will cane andwood, with respect to ambient humidity. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank William, remember, a cane rod is a dynamic casting tool, not a piece of furniture.One need to look at other finishes besides furniture and boat finishes. T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know about theeffects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation We have been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, todo the same before finishing). But I wonder how important, in practice,this actually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be what the discussion, as Ihave heard it, is about. Instead, the worry seems to be about the"dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, andthus building a rod that will remain "soft" in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), isthat no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentofwood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalize itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by theusual, lengthy drying process, the "bound water" has been driven out andthese cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture content. Anyremaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound to migrate both inand out as the ambient humidity changes. And, surprisingly, not even ourmodern poly varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for thelifeof a fly rod. The same is true for furniture, of course. Wood continues to"work" from one season to the next, and no finish can prevent the process. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we cando ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run. So, I wonder howmuch one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and"cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion. Cheers, Bill ---------- finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish for furniture and/or boats. = = boats and furniture, alike, will then become stable in terms of inner = =move into these cells once the material has been cured -- neither can =repeated dunkings (even of unfinished wood or cane) affect the =moisture content of cured cell-structure. What rods, boats and = be kept in nor kept out of the fibrous material between these cells, and =rods, boats and furniture will all try to equalize with whatever the =ambient humidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts to prevent =that process. In this latter regard, all we can hope for in a =cane rod (as with a boat or piece of furniture) is some finish that will = to all three (rods, boats and furniture), and all will produce nearly = concerned. That we cast a rod or sit on a chair is =irrelevant.Finishes will do (and not do) what they will do. = blankDate: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:42 AMWilliam, remember, a cane rod is a = at other finishes besides furniture and boat finishes. T.Ackland =WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: =to know about the effects of =humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod for =finishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about this =issue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation = =been told by various builders that it is very important to drive or draw =out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, to = practice, this actually is. I =should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible = unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod = have heard from furniture makers), is that no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the = will always equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity =happens to be. Once the cell =structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by the usual, = driven out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of =moisture content. Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells,= moisture that is bound to migrate both in and out as the ambient = varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for the life of a fly = prevent the process. As to the =extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the same =process, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we = I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is = thinking on Richard's question. Cheers, Bill ----------=From: Richard Nantel <richard.nantel@videotron.ca ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4AF7.92A1B000-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Jan 28 21:49:35 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Plating The electroless nickel plating will work on spring steel guides. It won'tworkon stainless. If you want to plate stainless, it hasto be pre treated in a product called Wood's Nickel Strike, which puts alightcoating of nickel onto the stainless usingHydrochloric acid to etch the metal so the plating will stick.After the pre treatment, then you can plate with nickel, bronzechrome, etc. Dave LeClair from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Jan 29 06:21:12 1999 GAA25997 Subject: test from jefffly@choice.net Fri Jan 29 07:32:32 1999 IAA00835 Subject: Silk Thread Storage boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4B61.D36B7B60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4B61.D36B7B60 Are there any suggestions for best storing bulk amounts of silk thread? =Ziploc?Dark place? Desicant bag? ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4B61.D36B7B60 Are there any suggestions forbest = amounts of silk thread? Ziploc?Dark place? Desicant =bag? ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE4B61.D36B7B60-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 29 07:34:46 1999 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank 92DBA0CEA33B00A4613BAD85" --------------92DBA0CEA33B00A4613BAD85 William,try heat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you would arifle. Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and itshould return to its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and put itin a damp environment such as a closed tube with a piece of damp rag.Within a day the strip will be like a noodle when you sight down andbendand stay in a bent position and very slowly return..Heat treating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does not makecanehumidity proof as you suggest.I have done a great deal of basement research in this direction becauseI believe that a stable moisture content is the key to a good rod.T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: I was speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish forfurniture and/or boats. What rods, boats and furniture have in commonis an internal cell-structure that will retain water ("boundmoisture") if not driven out by some means. Long curing is necessary boats and furniture, alike, will then become stable in terms of innercell- structure moisture migration. Ambient humidity can no longermove into these cells once the material has been cured -- neither canrepeated dunkings (even of unfinished wood or cane) affect themoisture content of cured cell- structure. What rods, boats and furniture also have in common, however, ispotential for moisture retention between the inner cells. This iscalled "free moisture," and it can also be driven out, but onlytemporarily. Ultimately, free moisture can neither be kept in norkept out of the fibrous material between these cells, and rods, boatsand furniture will all try to equalize with whatever the ambienthumidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts to prevent thatprocess. In this latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with aboat or piece of furniture) is some finish that will retard thisprocess as much as possible. The fact that a fly rod is, indeed, adynamic casting tool, just as you say, Terry, does not alter thepicture at all. All finishes are equally applicable to all three(rods, boats and furniture), and all will produce nearly identicalresults as far as protecting the surfaces beneath are concerned. Thatwe cast a rod or sit on a chair is irrelevant.Finishes will do (and not do) what they will do. And so will cane andwood, with respect to ambient humidity. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Terence Ackland Cc: richard.nantel@videotron.ca; Rodmakers (E-mail) Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:42 AM William,remember, a cane rod is a dynamic casting tool, not a piece offurniture. One need to look at other finishes besides furniture andboat finishes.T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Hello all,Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know aboutthe effectsof humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked aboutpreparation for the glue-up stages.We have been told by various builders that it is very important todrive or draw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing(or, again, to do the same before finishing). But I wonder howimportant, in practice, this actually is.I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry aspossible for purposes of attaining the best bond for the glue -- or,later, the best bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be whatthe discussion, as I have heard it, is about. Instead, the worryseems to be about the "dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture withinthe fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain "soft"in its action.My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), isthatno matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentof wood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalizeitself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be.Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be driven out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms ofmoisture content. Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN thecells, and is what's called "free water." It is only THIS moisturethat is bound to migrate both in and out as the ambient humiditychanges. And, surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes canprevent this process from continuing for the life of a fly rod. Thesame is true for furniture, of course. Wood continues to "work" fromone season to the next, and no finish can prevent the process.As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by thesame process, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there'sanything we can do ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run.So, I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the caneis truly dried and "cured."Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion.Cheers, Bill ----------From: Richard Nantel --------------92DBA0CEA33B00A4613BAD85 William,try heat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you woulda rifle. Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and itshould return to its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and put itin a damp environment such as a closed tube with a piece of damp rag.Withina day the strip will be like a noodle when you sight down and bend Heat treating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does notmake canehumidity proof as you suggest.I have done a great deal of basement research in this directionbecauseI believe that a stable moisture content is the key to a good rod.T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Iwas speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish for furniture furniture, alike, will then become stable in terms of inner cell-structure thesecells once the material has been cured -- neither can repeated dunkings(even of unfinished wood or cane) affect the moisture content ofcured cell-structure. What neitherbe kept in nor kept out of the fibrous material between these cells, androds, boats and furniture will all try to equalize with whatever theambienthumidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts to prevent thatprocess. Inthis latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with a boat orpiece of furniture) is some finish that will retard this process as much casting tool, just as you say, Terry, does not alter the picture at All finishes are equally applicable to all three (rods, boats and furniture),and all will produce nearly identical results as far as protecting thesurfaces beneath are concerned. That we cast a rod or sit on a chair isirrelevant.Finishes with respect to ambient humidity. Cheers,Bill ----------From:Terence Ackland <hexagon@odyssee.net> HARMS1@prodigy.netCc:richard.nantel@videotron.ca;Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Subject:Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate:Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:42 AM William,remember, need to look at other finishes besides furniture and boatfinishes.T.Ackland WILLIAMA HARMS wrote: Helloall, about theeffectsofhumidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod for finishing.I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about this issue. Actually,the question might as easily be asked about preparation for the glue-upstages.Wehave been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, practice, this actually is.Ishould think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible what moisturewithin the fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain in its action.My thatnomatter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture content of itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be.Oncethe cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by the out and these cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisturecontent.Any remaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what'scalled migrate not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this process fromcontinuing can prevent the process.Asto the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we I wonder how much one needs to worry about humidity once the cane istrulydried and "cured."Jump Richard'squestion.Cheers,Bill ----------From:Richard Nantel <richard.nantel@videotron.ca --------------92DBA0CEA33B00A4613BAD85-- from channer@hubwest.com Fri Jan 29 07:44:39 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AB9F11800134; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:46:07 MST Subject: tight loop taper Daryl;Several months ago you posted some numbers for a rod that you said wouldonly throw a tight loop. I have a new computer and can't bring up mymailbox disc from the old one. I was wondering if you could point me tothecorrect area of the archives to find it.ThanksJohn from GDAVIS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU Fri Jan 29 10:58:10 1999 #20257) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri,29 Jan 1999 10:57:50 CST Subject: Re: humidity ... Basement tests have demonstrated to my satisfaction that humidity and water-based glues will cause flamed and heat-treated bamboo strips to increase in thickness (swell). Length was not similarly affected. Keeping the bamboo in a plywood, weather-stripped cabinet with a 60 watt light bulb gradually reversed that swelling. Therefore, I keep unfinished strips or rods in the drying cabinet before final planing or ferrule fitting. More than a week, but less than a month works for me. I take the pieces out singly as I work on them, and return them when I am done. I don't know if this water is free or bound within the bamboo, but I would guess that the last water to leave and the first to return would be bound.- Grayson from rcurry@top.monad.net Fri Jan 29 12:13:54 1999 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Terry,I must agree with you (oh, the pain, the pain). An interestingexample of what you described I witnessed as follows:An old rodmaker had a bundle of rod butts that he had glued up inthe 60's. They were heat treated and ready to ferrule... except thatwhen flexed, they stayed bent. He had stored them with their exposedcane on the concrete floor of his workshop, it was summer and humid.One week later, after he had had a chance to dry them out, they werespringy and alive.Best regards,Reed Terence Ackland wrote: William,try heat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you would arifle. Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and itshould return to its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and putit in a damp environment such as a closed tube with a piece of damprag. Within a day the strip will be like a noodle when you sight downand bendand stay in a bent position and very slowly return..Heat treating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does notmake canehumidity proof as you suggest.I have done a great deal of basement research in this directionbecause I believe that a stable moisture content is the key to a goodrod.T.Ackland from thramer@presys.com Fri Jan 29 14:27:01 1999 0000 Subject: Humidity A good solution to the humidity problem is to plane, glue, ferrule andfinish the rod in a few evenings instead of taking a couple of months :)A.J.thramer from dmanders@telusplanet.net Fri Jan 29 15:16:10 1999 don") byedtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Fri, 29 Jan 199914:16:05 - 0700 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Bill/Guys/Gals, In the May/June 1987 issue of Fine Woodworking there was an articleentitled "Protecting Wood from Humidity". While I would have liked to postthe article intact, I couldn't get permission of the authors although Itried for a number of months.So, I will quote from the article a number of things that may shed light onthe recent discussion. * The Forest Products Laboratory completed a study that examined howwellfinishes resisted water vapor.* Of the 91 finishes tested, no coating entirely prevents water fromabsorbing.* Some popular finishes linseed oil, tung oil and lacquer presented littlebarrier to water vapor.* Sample of smooth pine were used.* Test consisted of exposing two pieces of pine cut from the same board -both were exposed to 80F and 30% humidity until they could gain no morewater- weighted - one coated - then exposed to1, 7, and 14 days @ 80Fand90% humidity.* dipped coats fared better than brushed coats due to depth of coat*degree of moisture vapor protection depends on: how thick the film,whether the coating contains pigments, kind of resin, how long the woodwasexposed* authors found that the longer the finished pieces were exposed to highhumidity, the poorer their water retardance, eventually water vapor findsits way in.* latex or water based varnishes are not very effective* tung oil by itself is not very effective although when blended with otherresins, effectiveness increases* First coat may seal the surface, second coat provides a defect freesurface - each coat after that does decrease moisture uptake but inreducing amounts The article included a table of finishes and their effectiveness. The tableshows the moisture-excluding effectiveness [ MEE ] of a variety offinishes. Rating are given for 1, 2 and 3 coats after 14 days of exposure @80F and 90% humidity. Higher number represent greater effectivness. Material 1 coat 2 coats 3 coats Melted paraffin wax 95 N/A N/A 2 part epoxy sheathing 54 88 91 Alum. flake pigmented polyurethane gloss varnish 41 77 84 Two part polyurethanegloss varnish 0 46 66 Epoxy gloss varnish 3 46 66 Polyurethane gloss varnish 11 36 44 Polyurethane satin varnish 8 29 43 Soya alkyd phenolic/tung oilgloss spar varnish 0 1530 Acrylic gloss latex varnish -1 6 10 Tung Oil -1 -12 Brazilian carnauba paste wax 0 0 1 Linseed Oil -5 -40 Spray furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0 00 So there it is - paraffin wax and the herd - so for those folks who believethat tung oil seals the cane - sorry - just t'aint so.The best of the bunch for the cane builder seems to be Polyurethane polyvarnish. Don from chris@artistree.com Fri Jan 29 15:19:47 1999 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Storage boundary="------------745742B86C13671B209C7812" --------------745742B86C13671B209C7812 mac-creator="4D4F5353" Jeff,That might work...I use a tupperware type container. And YES...definitely store away from & out of sunlight.--Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Jeff Arnold wrote: Are there any suggestions for best storing bulk amounts of silkthread? Ziploc?Dark place? Desicant bag? --------------745742B86C13671B209C7812 Jeff,That might work...I use a tupperware type container. And YES...definitelystore away from & out of sunlight.--Best Regards,Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Jeff Arnold wrote: thereany suggestions for best storing bulk amounts of silk thread?Ziploc?Darkplace? Desicant bag? --------------745742B86C13671B209C7812-- from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Fri Jan 29 16:13:13 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level310) via TCP with SMTP ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:11:43 EST Subject: Lie-Nielsen Planes I am working on a deal with L-N to purchase a bunch of 9 1/2 planes witha.005 slot milled into the sole, and 2 blades. The cost will be about$25.00 off retail, or a total of $175.00 plus S&S. (Retail is $150 for theplane, $25.00 for the extra blade, and $25.00 for the milled slot. S&S isshipping and a wee bit of stout.) I think these are the finest planesavailable, but then not everyone needs the finest. If you are unfamiliarwith the details, ck out their web site at lie-nielsen.com. If you'reinterested let me know within a week or so. This will happen fast. (Sorrycan't ship outside US.) --Bob.Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Jan 29 16:26:47 1999 Subject: Tubes for U-Bond Hi Gang, I received an email today from Easypoxy which is the company thatdistributes that marvelous rod building adhesive called U-Bond. They needto find company's that make the aluminum tubes the glue comes in andsomeone who does blister packaging.On the chance that some of you may be privy to this information I amsoliciting your help. If you have that info please email it directly toeasypoxy@compuserve.com and address the memo to Shannon. They are doing their best to help us get this fine product back on themarket for us to use in gluing ferrules, corks to cane and reel seats tocane. Ray from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 29 16:34:26 1999 RAA307148;Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:34:19 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4BAD.84DDB3E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BAD.84DDB3E0 Heat treating is very important, I believe, to stiffen the resins in thefibers and to drive every possible bit of moisture from within the cellstructure. But you will never obtain a "stable moisture content" as longas your rod exists, since ambient humidity passes both in and out of thefibrous tissue between cells -- however slowly. Your basement tests, I know from my own experience, are accurate. Buteventhe "wet noodle" strip will become like its mates once again, given enoughtime to release its moisture. The oven can do this in short order, andyou're absolutely correct, I believe, about the need to try to keepunnecessary moisture away from the strips. But I also don't believe weneed to go to any great lengths in worrying about our means to accomplishthat. Ordinary ambient humidity is not much of an enemy. If it were, thenin the humid, dog-days of summer, we should begin to notice that our rodsjust aren't performing as they used to. But I can't honestly say that I'veever noticed this. And don't fool yourself into believing that it'sbecause the varnish is "protecting" against that humidity. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank William, try heat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you would a rifle.Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and it shouldreturn to its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and put it in a dampenvironment such as a closed tube with a piece of damp rag. Within a daythe strip will be like a noodle when you sight down and bend and stay in a bent position and very slowly return.. Heat treating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does not makecane humidity proof as you suggest. I have done a great deal of basement research in this direction because Ibelieve that a stable moisture content is the key to a good rod. T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: I was speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish forfurnitureand/or boats. What rods, boats and furniture have in common is aninternalcell-structure that will retain water ("bound moisture") if not driven out form of heat treatment. Rods, boats and furniture, alike, will then becomestable in terms of inner cell-structure moisture migration. Ambienthumidity can no longer move into these cells once the material has beencured -- neither can repeated dunkings (even of unfinished wood or cane)affect the moisture content of cured cell-structure. What rods, boats and furniture also have in common, however, is potential moisture," and it can also be driven out, but only temporarily. Ultimately, free moisture can neither be kept in nor kept out of thefibrous material between these cells, and rods, boats and furniture willall try to equalize with whatever the ambient humidity happens to be,despite any and all efforts to prevent that process. In this latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with a boat orpiece of furniture) is some finish that will retard this process as much aspossible. The fact that a fly rod is, indeed, a dynamic casting tool,just as you say, Terry, does not alter the picture at all. All finishes areequally applicable to all three (rods, boats and furniture), and all willproduce nearly identical results as far as protecting the surfaces beneathare concerned. That we cast a rod or sit on a chair is irrelevant. Finishes will do (and not do) what they will do. And so will cane andwood, with respect to ambient humidity. Cheers, Bill ---------- important, I believe, to stiffen the resins in the fibers and to drive = long as your rod exists, since ambient humidity passes both in and out =of the fibrous tissue between cells -- however =slowly.Your basement tests, I know from my own experience, are = like its mates once again, given enough time to release its moisture. = correct, I believe, about the need to try to keep unnecessary moisture = any great lengths in worrying about our means to accomplish that. = were, then in the humid, dog-days of summer, we should begin to = yourself into believing that it's because the varnish is = Bill----------From: TerenceAckland = blankDate: Friday, January 29, 1999 5:36 AMWilliam, try heat treating a strip of =cane and sight down it like you would a rifle. Give it a good tweek to =one side while sighting down it and it should return to its position. =Now heat treat a piece of cane and put it in a damp environment such as =a closed tube with a piece of damp rag. Within a day the strip will be =like a noodle when you sight down and bend and stay in a bent =position and very slowly return.. Heat treating does nothing =permanent to cane, it certainly does not make cane humidity proof as =you suggest. I have done a great deal of basement research in this =direction because I believe that a stable moisture content is the key to =a good rod. T.Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: I was speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY = retain water ("bound moisture") if not driven out by some = then become stable in terms of inner cell-structure moisture migration. = material has been cured -- neither can repeated dunkings (even of =unfinished wood or cane) affect the moisture content of cured =cell- structure. What rods, = potential for moisture retention between the inner cells. This is = neither be kept in nor kept out of the fibrous material between these =cells, and rods, boats and furniture will all try to equalize with =whatever the ambient humidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts =to prevent that process. In =this latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with a boat or =piece of furniture) is some finish that will retard this process as much = casting tool, just as you say, Terry, does not alter the picture at all. =All finishes are equally applicable to all three (rods, boats and =furniture), and all will produce nearly identical results as far as =protecting the surfaces beneath are concerned. That we cast a rod or sit = so will cane and wood, with respect to ambient humidity. Cheers, Bill =-------- -- From:Terence =Ackland <hexagon@odyssee.net ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BAD.84DDB3E0-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 29 18:25:52 1999 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank D014A63E9F5039DA8B31E174" --------------D014A63E9F5039DA8B31E174 Bill,after attending a rod makers gathering down in Harrisburg several yearsago in the very hot and humid agricultural show ground, I decided thatimpregnation was the only way to go.It does not take very long for a cane rod to pick up moisture and startto twist and set. A rod will only stay straight if can be kept at themoisture content it was built with and any change up or down will causeinternal stresses.I do not varnish, I impregnate and buff with wax. I cannot say that Iexclude all moisture but I feel more comfortable than I did when I dipcoated layers of spar.Terry Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Heat treating is very important, I believe, to stiffen the resins inthe fibers and to drive every possible bit of moisture from within thecell structure. But you will never obtain a "stable moisturecontent" as long as your rod exists, since ambient humidity passesboth in and out of the fibrous tissue between cells -- however slowly. Your basement tests, I know from my own experience, are accurate. Buteven the "wet noodle" strip will become like its mates once again,given enough time to release its moisture. The oven can do this inshort order, and you're absolutely correct, I believe, about the needto try to keep unnecessary moisture away from the strips. But I alsodon't believe we need to go to any great lengths in worrying about ourmeans to accomplish that. Ordinary ambient humidity is not much of anenemy. If it were, then in the humid, dog-days of summer, we shouldbegin to notice that our rods just aren't performing as they used to.But I can't honestly say that I've ever noticed this. And don't foolyourself into believing that it's because the varnish is "protecting"against that humidity. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Terence Ackland Cc: richard.nantel@videotron.ca; Rodmakers (E-mail) Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Friday, January 29, 1999 5:36 AM William,try heat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you would arifle. Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and itshould return to its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and putit in a damp environment such as a closed tube with a piece of damprag. Within a day the strip will be like a noodle when you sight downand bendand stay in a bent position and very slowly return..Heat treating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does notmake canehumidity proof as you suggest.I have done a great deal of basement research in this directionbecause I believe that a stable moisture content is the key to a goodrod.T.AcklandWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: I was speaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish forfurniture and/or boats. What rods, boats and furniture have in commonis an internal cell-structure that will retain water ("boundmoisture") if not driven out by some means. Long curing is necessary boats and furniture, alike, will then become stable in terms of innercell- structure moisture migration. Ambient humidity can no longermove into these cells once the material has been cured -- neither canrepeated dunkings (even of unfinished wood or cane) affect themoisture content of cured cell- structure.What rods, boats and furniture also have in common, however, ispotential for moisture retention between the inner cells. This iscalled "free moisture," and it can also be driven out, but onlytemporarily. Ultimately, free moisture can neither be kept in norkept out of the fibrous material between these cells, and rods, boatsand furniture will all try to equalize with whatever the ambienthumidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts to prevent thatprocess.In this latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with aboat or piece of furniture) is some finish that will retard thisprocess as much as possible. The fact that a fly rod is, indeed, adynamic casting tool, just as you say, Terry, does not alter thepicture at all. All finishes are equally applicable to all three(rods, boats and furniture), and all will produce nearly identicalresults as far as protecting the surfaces beneath are concerned. Thatwe cast a rod or sit on a chair is irrelevant.Finishes will do (and not do) what they will do. And so will cane andwood, with respect to ambient humidity.Cheers, Bill ----------From: Terence Ackland --------------D014A63E9F5039DA8B31E174 Bill,after attending a rod makers gathering down in Harrisburg severalyearsago in the very hot and humid agricultural show ground, I decided thatimpregnation was the only way to go.It does not take very long for a cane rod to pick up moisture and startto twist and set. A rod will only stay straight if can be kept at themoisturecontent it was built with and any change up or down will cause internalstresses.I do not varnish, I impregnate and buff with wax. I cannot say thatI exclude all moisture but I feel more comfortable than I did when I dipcoated layers of spar.Terry Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Heattreating is very important, I believe, to stiffen the resins in the fibersand to drive every possible bit of moisture from within the cell your rod exists, since ambient humidity passes both in and out of thefibroustissue between cells -- howeverslowly. Your even the "wet noodle" strip will become like its mates once again, given order, and you're absolutely correct, I believe, about the need to try believe we need to go to any great lengths in worrying about our means If it were, then in the humid, dog-days of summer, we should begin against that humidity. Cheers,Bill ----------From:Terence Ackland <hexagon@odyssee.net> HARMS1@prodigy.netCc:richard.nantel@videotron.ca;Rodmakers (E-mail) <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Subject:Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate:Friday, January 29, 1999 5:36 AM William,tryheat treating a strip of cane and sight down it like you would a rifle.Give it a good tweek to one side while sighting down it and it shouldreturnto its position. Now heat treat a piece of cane and put it in a dampenvironmentsuch as a closed tube with a piece of damp rag. Within a day the stripwill be like a noodle when you sight down andbendandstay in a bent position and very slowly return..Heattreating does nothing permanent to cane, it certainly does not makecanehumidityproof as you suggest.Ihave done a great deal of basement research in this direction because Ibelieve that a stable moisture content is the key to a goodrod.T.AcklandWILLIAMA HARMS wrote: I wasspeaking of poly finishes for rods and ANY OTHER finish for furnitureand/or cell-structure that will retain water ("bound moisture") if not driven will then become stable in terms of inner cell-structure moisture Ambient humidity can no longer move into these cells once the materialhas been cured -- neither can repeated dunkings (even ofunfinishedwood or cane) affect the moisture content of cured cell-structure.What potential for moisture retention between the inner cells. This is kept in nor kept out of the fibrous material between these cells, and rods,boats and furniture will all try to equalize with whatever the ambienthumidity happens to be, despite any and all efforts to prevent thatprocess.Inthis latter regard, all we can hope for in a cane rod (as with a boat orpiece of furniture) is some finish that will retard this process as much casting tool, just as you say, Terry, does not alter the picture at all.All finishes are equally applicable to all three (rods, boats and furniture),and all will produce nearly identical results as far as protecting thesurfaces beneath are concerned. That we cast a rod or sit on a chair isirrelevant.Finishes with respect to ambient humidity.Cheers,Bill ----------From:Terence Ackland <hexagon@odyssee.net --------------D014A63E9F5039DA8B31E174-- from channer@hubwest.com Fri Jan 29 19:25:11 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AFCC5080050; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:26:36 MST Subject: tight loop taper Thanks to everyone that forwarded the taper to me. John from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 29 20:01:16 1999 Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:01:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4BCA.657FBDA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BCA.657FBDA0 Wow! Thanks, Don. That's an eye-opener. Frankly, I had thought thatpoly was as good as anything, but it sure doesn't compare to the two-partepoxy sheathing. So, I suppose that's the next road to go down. How toget a good epoxy finish on a rod. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Don & Sandy Andersen Cc: Rodmakers (E-mail) Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blankDate: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:19 PM Bill/Guys/Gals, In the May/June 1987 issue of Fine Woodworking there was an articleentitled "Protecting Wood from Humidity". While I would have liked topostthe article intact, I couldn't get permission of the authors although Itried for a number of months.So, I will quote from the article a number of things that may shed lightonthe recent discussion. * The Forest Products Laboratory completed a study that examined howwellfinishes resisted water vapor.* Of the 91 finishes tested, no coating entirely prevents water fromabsorbing.* Some popular finishes linseed oil, tung oil and lacquer presentedlittlebarrier to water vapor.* Sample of smooth pine were used.* Test consisted of exposing two pieces of pine cut from the same board-both were exposed to 80F and 30% humidity until they could gain no morewater- weighted - one coated - then exposed to1, 7, and 14 days @ 80Fand90% humidity.* dipped coats fared better than brushed coats due to depth of coat*degree of moisture vapor protection depends on: how thick the film,whether the coating contains pigments, kind of resin, how long the woodwasexposed* authors found that the longer the finished pieces were exposed to highhumidity, the poorer their water retardance, eventually water vaporfindsits way in.* latex or water based varnishes are not very effective* tung oil by itself is not very effective although when blended withotherresins, effectiveness increases* First coat may seal the surface, second coat provides a defect freesurface - each coat after that does decrease moisture uptake but inreducing amounts The article included a table of finishes and their effectiveness. Thetableshows the moisture-excluding effectiveness [ MEE ] of a variety offinishes. Rating are given for 1, 2 and 3 coats after 14 days of exposure@80F and 90% humidity. Higher number represent greater effectivness. Material 1 coat 2 coats 3 coats Melted paraffin wax 95 N/A N/A 2 part epoxy sheathing 54 8891 Alum. flake pigmented polyurethane gloss varnish 41 77 84 Two part polyurethanegloss varnish 0 46 66 Epoxy gloss varnish 3 46 66 Polyurethane gloss varnish 11 36 44 Polyurethane satin varnish 8 29 43 Soya alkyd phenolic/tung oilgloss spar varnish 0 1530 Acrylic gloss latex varnish -1 6 10 Tung Oil -1 -12 Brazilian carnauba paste wax 0 0 1 Linseed Oil -5 -40 Spray furniture polish lemon oil/silicone 0 00 So there it is - paraffin wax and the herd - so for those folks whobelievethat tung oil seals the cane - sorry - just t'aint so.The best of the bunch for the cane builder seems to be Polyurethane polyvarnish. Don ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BCA.657FBDA0 Don. = as good as anything, but it sure doesn't compare to the two-part epoxy = = = article intact, I couldn't get permission of the authors although = consisted of exposing two pieces of pine cut from the same board = *degree of moisture vapor protection depends on: how thick the = * First coat may seal the surface, second coat provides a defect = Material 1 coat 2= sheathing 54 88 91= varnish 41 77 84= varnish - Oil -1 - 1 = Linseed =Oil -5 - 4 = oil/silicone 0 0 = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BCA.657FBDA0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 29 20:10:59 1999 Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:10:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4BCB.C41F9140" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BCB.C41F9140 Terry,Yes, you're surely right about the impregnation idea. Apparently, thatpretty much does the trick, although I have not attempted it. I know thatRick Robbins has done a bit of impregnating, and I've been meaning to pickhis brain about the products, shop-materials and techniques. Maybe you could offer some advice on how to go about this process. Whatare some of the main considerations? (Oh, and yeah, I remember that Harrisburg builder's show. Great God, whatheat and humidity!) Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank Bill, after attending a rod makers gathering down in Harrisburg several yearsagoin the very hot and humid agricultural show ground, I decided thatimpregnation was the only way to go. It does not take very long for a cane rod to pick up moisture and start totwist and set. A rod will only stay straight if can be kept at the moisturecontent it was built with and any change up or down will cause internalstresses. I do not varnish, I impregnate and buff with wax. I cannot say that Iexclude all moisture but I feel more comfortable than I did when I dipcoated layers of spar. Terry Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Heat treating is very important, I believe, to stiffen the resins in thefibers and to drive every possible bit of moisture from within the cellstructure. But you will never obtain a "stable moisture content" as longas your rod exists, since ambient humidity passes both in and out of thefibrous tissue between cells -- however slowly. Your basement tests, I know from my own experience, are accurate. Buteventhe "wet noodle" strip will become like its mates once again, given enoughtime to release its moisture. The oven can do this in short order, andyou're absolutely correct, I believe, about the need to try to keepunnecessary moisture away from the strips. But I also don't believe weneed to go to any great lengths in worrying about our means to accomplishthat. Ordinary ambient humidity is not much of an enemy. If it were, thenin the humid, dog-days of summer, we should begin to notice that our rodsjust aren't performing as they used to. But I can't honestly say that I'veever noticed this. And don't fool yourself into believing that it'sbecause the varnish is "protecting" against that humidity. Cheers, Bill ---------- Rick Robbins has done a bit of impregnating, and I've been meaning to =pick his brain about the products, shop-materials and =techniques.Maybe you could offer some advice on how to go about = considerations?(Oh, and yeah, I remember that Harrisburg = Bill----------From: TerenceAckland = blankDate: Friday, January 29, 1999 4:27 PMBill, after attending a rod makers =gathering down in Harrisburg several years ago in the very hot and humid =agricultural show ground, I decided that impregnation was the only way =to go. It does not take very long for a cane rod to pick up moisture =and start to twist and set. A rod will only stay straight if can be kept =at the moisture content it was built with and any change up or down will =cause internal stresses. I do not varnish, I impregnate and buff =with wax. I cannot say that I exclude all moisture but I feel more =comfortable than I did when I dip coated layers of spar. Terry =Ackland WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Heat treating is very important, I believe, to =stiffen the resins in the fibers and to drive every possible bit of =moisture from within the cell structure. But you will never obtain a = since ambient humidity passes both in and out of the fibrous tissue =between cells -- however slowly. Your basement tests, I know from my own experience, are = like its mates once again, given enough time to release its moisture. = correct, I believe, about the need to try to keep unnecessary moisture = any great lengths in worrying about our means to accomplish that. = were, then in the humid, dog-days of summer, we should begin to = yourself into believing that it's because the varnish is ="protecting" against that humidity. =Cheers, Bill ----------=From: Terence Ackland<hexagon@odyssee.net ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4BCB.C41F9140-- from thramer@presys.com Fri Jan 29 20:58:27 1999 0000 Subject: Powell rods Were(are) not many Powell rods finished with linseed oil? If, as thedata suggests linseed oil is WORSE than NO finish at all are not thevast majority of Powell rods junky noodles? When data does not corellate with obsevation it makes me want to dig alittle deeper for accurate data.A.J.Thramer from channer@hubwest.com Fri Jan 29 22:05:49 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A5769920212; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:07:18 MST Subject: FW: Rod Design - Tight Loop Tip -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu SalarFly@aol.comSent: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 12:50 PM Subject: Rod Design - Tight Loop Tip> Carsten;I tried forwarding this to you, but it came back as undeliverable mail.Maybe some of the new guys on the list will appreciate it, too.John About 2 years ago, I had a thought that casting a tight loopcould be built into a rod. After some experimentation, I amsure of it. If you taper the tip section like so: Station Diameter0 .0685 .07210 .09015 .110 (This is for 5 wt line), you get a rod that will casta tight loop no matter what you do. You reallyhave to swing your rod in a wide arc if you wanta wide loop for nymphing or whatever. Darryl from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 29 23:29:56 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 30 Jan 1999 05:29:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Tubes for U-Bond Ray, Check a Thomas Register, either at your local library or online. It issomething like 26 volumes of companies broken out by what they do ormake. Good luck,George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Tubes for U-Bond Hi Gang, I received an email today from Easypoxy which is the company thatdistributes that marvelous rod building adhesive called U-Bond. They needto find company's that make the aluminum tubes the glue comes in andsomeone who does blister packaging.On the chance that some of you may be privy to this information I amsoliciting your help. If you have that info please email it directly toeasypoxy@compuserve.com and address the memo to Shannon. They are doing their best to help us get this fine product back on themarket for us to use in gluing ferrules, corks to cane and reel seats tocane. Ray from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sat Jan 30 08:15:28 1999 IAA19923 don") byedtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Sat, 30 Jan 199907:15:19 - 0700 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank At 09:00 PM 1/29/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Book AntiquaWow! Thanks,Don.That's an eye-opener. Frankly, I had thought that poly was as good asanything, but it sure doesn't compare to the two- part epoxy sheathing. So, I suppose that's the next road to go down. How to get a good epoxyfinish on a rod. Cheers, Bill Bill, I think what is really important about the table is that it shows that noproduct will exclude water vapor except for maybe paraffin wax. Thewatervapor creeps back in no matter what you do if you keep the rods in ahumid environment. The real question is whether it matters. I wouldexpect not. There are good rods built on both coasts where humidity is afactor. Certainly some of the Colorado builders hyped their rods based onthe environment they were built in. But does it matter. Well, I guesssomeone without an axe to grind is going to have to test the coatings -or has it been done as the previous post illustrates. Coating its seems to me are just to protect the rod from incidentalsplashes. Immersion of the rod in water is another thing entirely. Don from jfoster@gte.net Sat Jan 30 11:51:15 1999 Subject: archives mac-creator="4D4F5353" the tapers are back on-line (for those of you asking). be patient, ittakes a little time to spin them up. what can you ask for free? jerry let me know about errors. i still have a lot to add from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Jan 30 12:55:48 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Linseed oil finishes A.J. and list,I have used linseed oil finishes on gun stocks ever since I started buildingguns years ago. As anyone who builds guns or is in the paint trade willtellyou Linseed oil is a very poor finish to try and prevent moisture entry intoany wood. This is why they came up with the linspeed finishes as theyhaveadded varnish to the oil. Most guys who build custom guns shy away fromthelinspeeds because of asthetics but when we build a gun for a shooter wewilluse the linspeed to protect against moisture. Linseed oil gives a very softlooking and beautiful finish to a gunstock but will not keep out water, as amatter of fact if a linseed finished stock is left in the sun the linseed oilwill reactivate sometimes.bret from Canerods@aol.com Sat Jan 30 19:50:59 1999 Subject: My new email ISP (non-rodmaking) All, The ISP that I used was purchased, ceased it's own internet service, andI'vebeen off-line for the best part of a week until the new ISP's software CDarrived. Please delete the flyfisher@cmix.com address from your address books. I'm glad I kept AOL as a backup. (only costs me $9.95 extra/mt. with theirBYOInternet pricing plan) Don BurnsCanerods@aol.com from RVenneri@aol.com Sun Jan 31 06:34:19 1999 Subject: test test from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Jan 31 10:24:40 1999 don") by eeyore.eon.netwith SMTP id ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:24:18 -0700 Subject: Reel Seat Wood Insert Guys/Gals, A company sells acrylic impregnated wood inserts for reel seats. Good stuff - got some last month. http://www.waterloowood/wssi/ No commercial interest to me etc. Don from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Jan 31 10:29:30 1999 don") by eeyore.eon.netwith SMTP id ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:29:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank At 09:00 PM 1/29/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Book AntiquaWow! Thanks,Don.That's an eye-opener. Frankly, I had thought that poly was as good asanything, but it sure doesn't compare to the two- part epoxy sheathing. So, I suppose that's the next road to go down. How to get a good epoxyfinish on a rod. Cheers, Bill Bill, Some years ago Bob Kambietz of Calgary, Alberta, Canada showed us somerods that he had done with that style of coating. The finish was greatand I expect bullet proof. He, I think, mentioned some health hazardsusing the material and suggested it wasn't the thing for basementbuilders due to requirement for supplied air breathing apparatus. I have used similar products in an industrial setting -tough stuff. We even coated the nose of the ice breakers working in theArctic with the stuff. Can't sandblast it off. Don from mrj@aa.net Sun Jan 31 10:50:26 1999 Subject: filler for realseats prior to coating with poly I am making some real seats and I noticed that on the surface of some ofthese, there are little pits and crevasses in the wood (maple). Is there afiller that I can apply and then sand down so that when I dip them inPolyurethane they will be totally smooth? I am thinking of some kind ofliquid here. I know that Polyurethane does not "feather" in when sandingandI'm thinking that it would not fill the cracks well anyway.Martin Jensen from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jan 31 15:07:18 1999 QAA92714;Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:07:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Powell rods =_NextPart_000_01BE4D33.AA5DD6E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4D33.AA5DD6E0 Perhaps our "observations" are not actually showing us what we thinktheyare showing us. The simple, irrefutable fact is that linseed oil truly ISthe poorest protective finish you could choose. That fact notwithstanding,the very finest gunmakers in England have chosen, for over two hundredyears, to use linseed oil (and some dryers) in finishing stocks and forendson all their best guns. But why?Shall we suppose those gunmakers have always known something the restofthe world does not know? Linseed oil has been used because, for over a hundred years, it was "theonly game in town," and because it has always produced absolutelygorgeousresults on fine woods. Driven by big-money and the accompanyingsnob-appeal, linseed oil came to be regarded as the only "acceptable" finish on expensive guns. But it was never because the finish offered goodprotection. Instead, it was because that, simply, was the tradition. And,I'm sorry, but that's what we're "observing." Mistrust the data, if youcan find a good basis, but don't do so because you think you are"observing" something. As to the Powell rods in question, what we may be observing is thatalthough linseed oil doesn't offer NEARLY the protection that almost ANYother finish can provine, nevertheless, it may still be good enough to keepa good rod from becoming " a junky noodle." So, although linseed oil maynot harm a rod, it isn't going to help it much either. It's just not thecase that the data doesn't correlate with the observation. Rather, it'sthat you're probably not seeing what you think you're seeing. ----------From: A.J.Thramer Subject: Powell rodsDate: Friday, January 29, 1999 7:07 PM Were(are) not many Powell rods finished with linseed oil? If, as thedata suggests linseed oil is WORSE than NO finish at all are not thevast majority of Powell rods junky noodles? When data does not corellate with obsevation it makes me want to dig alittle deeper for accurate data.A.J.Thramer------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4D33.AA5DD6E0 Perhaps our = think = fact notwithstanding, the very finest gunmakers in England have chosen, = why?Shall we suppose those gunmakers have always known somethingthe = =because, for over a hundred years, it was "the only game in = gorgeous = snob-appeal, linseed oil came to be regarded as the only = if you can find a good basis, but don't do so because you think you are = doesn't offer NEARLY the protection that almost ANY other finish can =provine, nevertheless, it may still be good enough to keep a good rod = linseed oil may not harm a rod, it isn't going to help it much either. = rods = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4D33.AA5DD6E0-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Jan 31 16:17:42 1999 Subject: Re: filler for realseats prior to coating with poly Martin,I don't use a filler on my reel seat fillers. I dip the fillerin polyurethane varnish, hang and let dry for at least 24 hours. Carefully sand down with 600 grit wet/dry paper. Redip into the polyurethane varnish, let dry 24 hours. If thereare still small crevasses, sand again and redip. I usually willgo three to four coats on my fillers, to get the finish I want. If some of the crevasses are too large for this type offinishing, fill the crevasses with a good super glue and spraythe glue with an accelerator to harden the glue. Sand the gluedown and dip in your polyurethane as you normally do. This should take care of those nasty crevasses. Dave LeClair from sonners2@bellsouth.net Sun Jan 31 16:33:47 1999 62.gso.bellsouth.net RAA00393 31 Jan 1999 17:34:25-0500 Subject: Crevasses in an old Montague Rod. I have an Old Montague with Crevasses in one of the three piece sections. Whats the best way torepair this and render the rod fishable. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Jan 31 18:50:47 1999 Subject: Re: Crevasses in an old Montague Rod. Anthony,That sounds like you've got some hook digs in thecane. That's where the hook has caught the rod when casting.Is the cane splintered or just a dig? If it is just a dig, youcan wrap the area with white silk and coat with a few coatsof spar varnish. This will make the rod usable. At least it willhelp strengthen that part of the rod. Just in case.If the cane is splintered in that area, you will haveto carefully lift the splinters and reglue them and bind it backdown. let the glue dry for a few days and then wrap withwhite silk and varnish. Dave L. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jan 31 20:03:24 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id ABD1260A0236; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:05:05 EST Subject: Re: Powell rods boundary="------------3816FFA8F2CAFCE15CE136D5" --------------3816FFA8F2CAFCE15CE136D5 Bill,In all probablility the makers of fine double guns were not usinglinseed oil as we usually see it, but rather "stand oil". Stand oil waspopular among wood workers last century because they knew that the"foots" in linseed oil never oxidized. To prepare stand oil simply putpure linseed oil in a tall glass jar in the sunlight. Wait six months ora year and then siphon off the clear oil into another container -- thatis your stand oil. It really drys.Actually, there were many oil, gums and resins available towoodworkers; linseed oil was not the only game in town. I used to have acollection of 17th-19th century finishing techniques (lost it in amove), which included milk waxes, spirit varnishes, etc.; plenty tochoose from. Penetrating oils have a certain ease of repair, so they areperfect for gunstocks. After a coat of wax, you're all set.It may be true that modern "boiled linseed oil" with its additivesand dryers is hygroscopic; I would be interested in their test resultsusing stand oil, multiple coats applied hot.Best regards,ReedP.S. - I wouldn't use just oil on a rod. Oil-varnish is good tho, IMHO.(And then wax.) WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Perhaps our "observations" are not actually showing us what we thinkthey are showing us. The simple, irrefutable fact is that linseed oiltruly IS the poorest protective finish you could choose. That factnotwithstanding, the very finest gunmakers in England have chosen, forover two hundred years, to use linseed oil (and some dryers) infinishing stocks and forends on all their best guns. But why?Shall we suppose those gunmakers have always known something therestof the world does not know? Linseed oil has been used because, for over a hundred years, it was"the only game in town," and because it has always producedabsolutely gorgeous results on fine woods. Driven by big-money andthe accompanying snob- appeal, linseed oil came to be regarded as theonly "acceptable" finish on expensive guns. But it was never becausethe finish offered good protection. Instead, it was because that,simply, was the tradition. And, I'm sorry, but that's what we're"observing." Mistrust the data, if you can find a good basis, butdon't do so because you think you are "observing" something. As to the Powell rods in question, what we may be observing is thatalthough linseed oil doesn't offer NEARLY the protection that almostANY other finish can provine, nevertheless, it may still be goodenough to keep a good rod from becoming " a junky noodle." So,although linseed oil may not harm a rod, it isn't going to help itmuch either. It's just not the case that the data doesn't correlatewith the observation. Rather, it's that you're probably not seeingwhat you think you're seeing. --------------3816FFA8F2CAFCE15CE136D5 Bill, were not using linseed oil as we usually see it, but rather "stand oil".Stand oil was popular among wood workers last century because theyknewthat the "foots" in linseed oil never oxidized. To prepare stand oil simplyput pure linseed oil in a tall glass jar in the sunlight. Wait six months -- that is your stand oil. It really drys. availableto woodworkers; linseed oil was not the only game in town. I used to havea collection of 17th-19th century finishing techniques (lost it in a move),which included milk waxes, spirit varnishes, etc.; plenty to choose from.Penetrating oils have a certain ease of repair, so they are perfect forgunstocks. After a coat of wax, you're all set. with its additives and dryers is hygroscopic; I would be interested intheir test results using stand oil, multiple coats applied hot.Best regards,ReedP.S. - I wouldn't use just oil on a rod. Oil-varnish is good tho, IMHO.(And then wax.)WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Perhaps notwithstanding, the very finest gunmakers in England have chosen, forover two hundred years, to use linseed oil (and some dryers) in finishing why?Shallwe suppose those gunmakers have always known something the rest of theworld does not know?Linseedoil has been used because, for over a hundred years, it was "the only game snob-appeal, the data, if you can find a good basis, but don't do so because you think As although linseed oil doesn't offer NEARLY the protection that almost ANYother finish can provine, nevertheless, it may still be good enough to It's just not the case that the data doesn't correlate with the Rather, it's that you're probably not seeing what you think you'reseeing. --------------3816FFA8F2CAFCE15CE136D5-- from jczimny@dol.net Sun Jan 31 20:07:54 1999 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Powell rods I don't know which Powell you mean. But, I have it from Walton and Presboth that the finestwhite shellac was used. The linseed oil was just a lubricant for theapplication of the shellac.Pure, de-waxed blonde shellac is highly elastic and water resistant. Itshould provide about thesame vapor barrier as most non-epoxy varnish. Along with a coat of wax,it might even bemarginally better. Of course, unlike oil/resin mixtures, it does not havemuch solventresistance.I don't know what E. C. used.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Powell rods Were(are) not many Powell rods finished with linseed oil? If, as thedata suggests linseed oil is WORSE than NO finish at all are not thevast majority of Powell rods junky noodles? When data does not corellate with obsevation it makes me want to dig alittle deeper for accurate data.A.J.Thramer from lblan@provide.net Sun Jan 31 22:55:32 1999 Subject: Carnauba To go along with the current finish thread, thought I'd throw this out.Zymol has a pretty fair section on carnauba, if anyone is interested (juststay clear of the $1200.00 wax). Ran across this when I had to purchaseoneof their products recently for a show vehicle. It did have a better shineand depth of finish than the products we normally use. No interest, etc. http://www.zymol.com/tech.htm