to form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither would Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sort ofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from michael@wugate.wustl.edu Fri Jan 22 09:18:48 1999 Subject: Sloooow Mail I got word from the LISTPROC guys that they are doing some work on themailservers, and they would be taking the servers down from time to time overthe next week or so. What that means is that they will hold messages thathave been sent to the list, and send them all out in a batch. Hopefullymost of this will take place in the evenings, and there won't be many longinterruptions of service during the day. Sorry for the delays... Mike BiondoRODMAKERS Listguy from TChafor@wavetech.com Fri Jan 22 10:03:50 1999 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000706DF; Fri, 22 Jan 9909:51:42 -0600 Subject: test from jfoster@gte.net Fri Jan 22 10:37:26 1999 Subject: Archives mac-creator="4D4F5353" The archives are broken, on purpose, i am in the process of relinkingthem, but with all the rain here on the ridge my net connection is verypoor. I'll let you know when they are back up fully Jerry from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Fri Jan 22 12:08:24 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id HAA29326; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:08:09 +1300 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Ferrule Fit Bob, Just one further coment in addition to Waynes advice , which as usual iswell thought out and helpful . A number of British rods makers used the technique of building up the rodatthe ferrule section by glueing thin strips of cane over the rod at thatpoint. They then turned the built up section down to achieve a perfectlyround section but with the original rod cross section still intact . An "oversized" ferrule was then used.I have a british book on rodmaking fromthe1950's with a diagram showing how to do this although it is fairingsimple.The only problem is it does not say how to make the strips which is thehardpart . I can fax you a diagram if it is of any interest to you . regards Iank At 12:15 AM 22/01/99 EST, WayneCatt@aol.com wrote:Bob - There are 2 schools of thought on how a ferrule should fit. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 16:55:49 1999 RAA110786;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:51:56 -0500 Subject: Re: forms =_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60 At the end of the day, I agree with Ed on the issue of "who can join theclub." For MY dough, it's the person who is conscientious, patient and iswilling to do what it takes to build a truly wonderful casting tool that looks as well as itcasts. Now, that person may WELL have bought his planing forms, andthat'sjust fine. I have no doubt that there are many excellent rod- makers outthere who did not build their own forms, and who have long since deservedto be regarded as "loyal and true members of the club." But (you knew there'd be a "but") I ALSO believe that building one's ownforms is an excellent introduction/apprenticeship into the craft -- as well as anexcellent test of one's patience and dedication. There are other ways tofind these things out, but surely building one's own forms is a good anduseful way for the would-be rod maker to discover if he has the rightstuff. That said, I should also say that after building my own forms over twentyyears ago and planing several dozen rods on it, in the spring I shall bepurchasing a Morgan Hand Mill. I hope my membership in "the club" willnotexpire. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Subject: Re: formsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:48 PM We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can jointheclub."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplishedwhomaynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you chooseto liveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's thesame asbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just notthesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwe goout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60 At the end of the day, I =agree with Ed on the issue of "who can join the club." = and is willing to do what it takes to build a truly wonderful = WELL have bought his planing forms, and that's just fine. = =there who did not build their own forms, and who have long since =deserved to be regarded as "loyal and true members of the =club."But (you knew there'd be a "but") I =ALSO believe that building one's own forms is an excellent =introduction/apprenticeship into the craft -- as well as an excellent = find these things out, but surely building one's own forms is a good and =useful way for the would-be rod maker to discover if he has the right =stuff. That said, I should also say that after building my own =forms over twenty years ago and planing several dozen rods on it, = hope my membership in "the club" will not = want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can join the = great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, for = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE462F.D1DA3B60-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 18:03:22 1999 SAA36546;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:57:19 -0500 Subject: Re: forms =_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0 Well, it all gets curiouser and curiouser, said Alice. Van Gogh,Picasso, Renoir and Rembrandt; "they mastered their craft, then wentbeyond that level to express their true genius through great originality." Yup, that sounds about right. It also sounds sort of like Gillum,Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a few other folks whose fly rodscometo mind -- or John Zimny and Jon Parker, come to think of it. But surely I blaspheme -- these folks don't havegalleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, and so, certainly it can'tbe art. So, let's see -- the difference between art and craft... . Hmmm. Wehear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someoneelse had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each invent. And brushesand palette knives as others had done before. And their application was ona flat, two dimensional surface like all the others. And they used depthperspective, impasto (or "pasta," I forget), chiaroscuro an' stuff likethat, which they all learned from each other and taught to the wannabes. And then there were all those centuries of Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, not to mention still more centuries of the Virgin Mary andotherBiblical figures. Then, too, there all those happy little fat kids withwings. And don't forget clouds -- you gotta have lots an' lots of puffy(or thunderous) clouds and you gotta go to school to study how to paintthat stuff. "Cause, in France, if you didn't go to school and do things"their way," you may get hung, but you don't get hung in the Louvre. So, I don't know. I've been teaching literature in College for over thirtyyears, and the longer I go on, the less sure I become about where the artsbegin and the crafts leave off. I know (or I'm led to assume) there's adifference between the two on some academic level, but in practice, I'mnotalways able to distinguish one from the other. For one thing, though, Iknow the crafts always produce something functional, whereas the artsproduce nothing of any earthly, practical use. Maybe that's why we alwayswant to put the arts on that "lofty pedestal." The crafts suggestpracticality and work, whereas the arts whisper mysteriously of a lostdream -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we could hang around doingabsolutely nothing of any conceivable use to anybody, indulge ourfantasies for a living, paint it nice colors and get college professors to go "oooohhand aahhhh!" Steve, I'm just pulling your leg. No offense, buddy. Next time I see ya',I'll buy you a tall cold one. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Steven Weiss Subject: Re: formsDate: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:39 PM Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's thesameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just notthesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform onegenerationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it isourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder Stuart,Having majored in art history in college, I take exception topeoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others. Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art.Steve- -----=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0 beyond that level to express their true genius through great = also sounds sort of like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a =few other folks whose fly rods come to mind -- or John Zimny and Jon = these folks don't have galleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, =and so, certainly it can't be art.So, let's see -- the = hear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someone =else had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they = forget clouds -- you gotta have lots an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) =clouds and you gotta go to school to study how to paint that stuff. = literature in College for over thirty years, and the longer I go on, the =less sure I become about where the arts begin and the crafts leave off. = on some academic level, but in practice, I'm not always able to = crafts always produce something functional, whereas the arts produce = crafts suggest practicality and work, whereas the arts whisper =mysteriously of a lost dream -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we =could hang around doing absolutely nothing of any conceivable use to = nice colors and get college professors to go "oooohh and = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4638.F6FDE5A0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jan 22 18:12:50 1999 TAA19918;Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:10:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS =_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520 Yeah, but if you REALLY want to impress your friends, learn to do it with7X tippet. Bill ----------From: Jeff Arnold Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRSDate: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:51 AM I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, butIbet they're hell to roll cast! Jeff-----Original Message-----From: Anachemrpo@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 6:55 PMSubject: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Rodmaker listfellows, makehis own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslackinginany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhadagreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in twocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither wouldItrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520 Yeah, but if you REALLYwant =to impress your friends, learn to do it with 7X = I am sure there is a lot of satisfaction from making your own forms, but = = = no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, and = two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (in = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE463A.CB821520-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 22 18:23:02 1999 Subject: Re: forms imagine being refused entry to alcoholics anonymous until you can blowyour ownbottles.Terry Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: We might want to be careful about unilaterally deciding who "can jointhe club."I suspect there are a few people out there who are quite accomplishedwho maynot have made their own forms. If those are the "club rules" you chooseto liveby, great. Perhaps others would prefer to determine their own rules. I, Best regards,-Ed Estlow Turbotrk@aol.com on 01/21/99 04:15:08 PM cc: (bcc: Ed Estlow/Hennepin) Subject: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the sameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform one generationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwe goout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we must crawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 22 18:51:27 1999 ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: forms Now let me see. A craftsman is concerned with the quality of his work.Art is concerned about the originality of the work. In other words, if Imake a really fine rod, no matter how original the finish (specialwindings, coloring, engraved handle, etc.) it will never be art; but if Ido a really ratty job, mount it in a frame and get someone to buy it, Ihave made a piece of art? Many years ago while I was in college, I would occasionally stroll throughthe fine art/architecture building to view the latest art exhibit. Thefine art department regularly featured an artist with an exhibit of hiswork. I remember several pieces of "art" from one particular exhibit.There were several exquisitely done paintings of dead rats. Also includedwas a painting of a menstruating nude. The other piece I remember was apicture frame with half of a partially burned yellow commode seat with a(what looked like a turn of the century) newspaper picture of a couple ofmen in 19th century bathing suits, glued to the remaining end of the 'seat. How then to define art? By the medium? Does half of a commode seatrescued from the local dump qualify but a varnished piece of bamboo doesnot? Art does not require quality of workmanship but it doesn't exclude iteither. To try and define art by exclusion is to err. Maybe by what itdoes? Is an original, one of a kind chair to be excluded and an oilpainting not? Then what is the difference? One is enjoyed by the eye, theother by the backside. Most (if not all) hand made rods are (in my mind atleast) works of art. Can another be hand made exactly like it? What isthe difference between the rods of just one maker? Just variations on atheme? What about one artist's paintings? Aren't they also just"variations on his theme". Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Having majored in art history in college, I take exception to peoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others. Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art. from rmoon@ida.net Fri Jan 22 19:38:13 1999 Subject: Re: forms 7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC" --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC BillI have had this argument many times with many other people. Even nowI find it difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why Ithink rod building CAN be art. I am sure that no one would claim a paint by number canvas constitutesart, despite the fact that it was produced by real paint, real brusheson real canvas. By the same token, a bamboo rod does not in and ofitself rise to the level of art. There must be a modicum of originalityas you have said, but even my amateurish, original though they may be,fail miserably to achieve the status of Art even in my eyes.Rembrandt, I will never be. So what is it that distinguishes his work from mine? It certainly can not be broken into its components: colorchoice and balance, composition, subject matter etc. I think that incomes down to the fact that art in some manner not always the same forall of us is able to produce an emotional response. Example a beat up H& I rod fails to move me in any way. However, I once had anopportunity to cast a Jim Payne rod, and I am not exagerating, the rodreally seemed to be a living thing in my hand. I could do no wrong withit. To this day I lust after that rod. I think that Schweibert alsocaught the emotional aspect of a fly rod as art in the introduction tobamboo rods in TROUT. The failure of some people with an insensitivityto discern this activity as an art form does not in any manner denigrateit. I have a hard time with Cubism, but I can agree that there is theelement of art there despite my failure to recognize it. Anyway just a couple of thoughts. I am aware that this is one debate noone will ever win. Ralph --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC Bill Even now I find it difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation asto why I think rod building CAN be art. I am sure that no one would claim a paint by number canvas constitutesart, despite the fact that it was produced by real paint, real brushes originalityas you have said, but even my amateurish, original though they may be, that in comes down to the fact that art in some manner not always thesame I once had an opportunity to cast a Jim Payne rod, and I am notexagerating, that Schweibert also caught the emotional aspect of a fly rod as art in people with an insensitivity to discern this activity as an art form does I can agree that there is the element of art there despite my failure torecognize it. debate no one will ever win. Ralph --------------7437A42090DA7D22DF515DEC-- from thramer@presys.com Fri Jan 22 20:12:11 1999 0000 Subject: Art? A fishing rod/pole is a tool. So are the plastic variety. The materialoffers a way to engineer the tool to perform as you think it should butin no way I can see does the mere choice of material qualify a fishingrod as art. An illustaration that I like to use would be the often rather crude rods from Phillipson that are still held in great esteem by anglers who usebamboo(not collect,talk or brag). Some rods from England while built toa very high standard had some questionable casting characteristics andare not looked upon very favorably. The point I would like to make is that rods in the final analysis willbe judged on how well they perform, not on the varnish, rod tube,intricate thread work, perfect cork and a reelseat made from unobtanium.A high standard of construction is important but it does not fill therequirements of a fishing rod only that of a fishing rod collector. Inother words a hanger queen. A.J.Thramer from jkallo@midwest.net Fri Jan 22 20:17:25 1999 Hi guys, I think it worth at least noting that when we compare the craft ofrodmaking to "art" we might resist the idea that somehow craft is"beneath"the pursuit of beauty or form in-itself. Its true that most civilizationsbegin artistic expression in practical forms--the embellishments of craft.If "high art" is the attempt to pursue these things in their purity--andmaybe thats what it is--craft is still the ground from which such a pusuitsprings. If the craftsman fails in their task maybe their product is notesthetically fulfilling; if the artist fails they aren't left with anythingreally. Its sad too that craft is denigrated in favor of high art when itspretty apparent that crafts are the context for most people's estheticexperiences. Hell, most people who claim to appreciate the fine arts reallyappreciate the social factors involved. So, no, I don't think rodmaking is a fine art, and I'm a bit proud of thatfact. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 22 20:23:44 1999 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: WARNING!! NON ROD BUILDING QUSETION. forging bronze People of the list. Please forgive me for asking this question on list butthere would be some-one who can help. Has anybody had experience forging bronze? I need to make a yoke for thetiller on my boat and before making a pattern for casting in bronze Ithought I'd try forging it from 19.8mm phosphor bronze rod I made keelbolts from but before possibly atomising it I though I'd see if anybodyhas any helpful hints. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jan 22 20:36:03 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:35:39 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Art? I don't think rods are pieces of art, just honest useful impliments made makers. The expectation is a thing of beauty but that isn't the point asAJ has pointed out. I've waved some pretty lousy casting rods that peopledrool over but I wouldn't own just in case some-one picked the thing upand inflicted it upon himself. Just as an aside. I cast a Sage the other day, I don't know it's detailsbecause I've forgotten them (it was just plastic) but it was a 4 weightand about 7' maybe a tad longer and it cast very much like the Sir D.Sorry to say that Wayne but I thought so, so did a person also on the sameboat who owns a Sir D, as did my son who also owns a Sir D.Don't know what to make of this but there you have it.I am now deeply confused. Next thing Stanley will start properly heattreating their plane irons. Tony /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from jwilcox@netsync.net Fri Jan 22 21:36:58 1999 quartz.netsync.net(8.9.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA08136 for; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:36:48 Subject: lie-nielsen planes boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060 bill harms is right. the little lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. i =have the one with the replacable throat pieces. it's their #103SP. =while you're at it you guys should try their new 9 1/2 block plane. it =fits your hand like a glove. the control it gives you is outstanding. =they are indeed expensive, but these two planes make a system that is =unbeatable. regards, jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060 lie-nielsen plane is a joy to use. i have the one with the replacable = wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE4657.B9A8D060-- from pyork@ipa.net Fri Jan 22 22:11:10 1999 Subject: Craft vs. Art Joe I agree with you, And this subject has been a life long debate in whichI've been in several times over the years. Being an Art Director in theadvertising and marketing field, the debate often comes up. Is commercialart the same thing as fine art? NO. Fine art is purely subjective.Commercial art is a creative way to solve the clients problem. ie, how do Ibuilt a stick that will project a line into the water in order to catch afish. A craft is a knowledge that is handed down. For example: this rodbuilding board. Is there room for both fine art and craftsmanship? YES. Thecraftsman in us makes it functional, the artist in us makes it appealing.Just my thoughts....Paul At 2:13 AM -0000 1/23/99, Joseph S.Kallo wrote:Hi guys, I think it worth at least noting that when we compare the craft ofrodmaking to "art" we might resist the idea that somehow craft is"beneath"the pursuit of beauty or form in-itself. Its true that most civilizationsbegin artistic expression in practical forms--the embellishments ofcraft.If "high art" is the attempt to pursue these things in their purity--andmaybe thats what it is-- craft is still the ground from which such apusuitsprings. If the craftsman fails in their task maybe their product is notesthetically fulfilling; if the artist fails they aren't left with anythingreally. Its sad too that craft is denigrated in favor of high art when itspretty apparent that crafts are the context for most people's estheticexperiences. Hell, most people who claim to appreciate the fine artsreallyappreciate the social factors involved. So, no, I don't think rodmaking is a fine art, and I'm a bit proud of thatfact. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 22 23:17:02 1999 Subject: Re: forms boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60 - Well, it all gets curiouser and curiouser, said Alice. Van Gogh, =Picasso, Renoir and Rembrandt; "they mastered their craft, then went =beyond that level to express their true genius through great =originality." Yup, that sounds about right. It also sounds sort of =like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a few other folks = to think of it. But surely I blaspheme -- these folks don't have =galleries in the Louvre or the National Gallery, and so, certainly it =can't be art. So, let's see -- the difference between art and craft... . Hmmm. =We hear that the old masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that =someone else had already done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each invent. And =brushes and palette knives as others had done before. And their =application was on a flat, two dimensional surface like all the others. =And they used depth perspective, impasto (or "pasta," I forget), =chiaroscuro an' stuff like that, which they all learned from each other =and taught to the wannabes. And then there were all those centuries of =Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, not to mention still more centuries=of the Virgin Mary and other Biblical figures. Then, too, there all =those happy little fat kids with wings. And don't forget clouds -- you =gotta have lots an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) clouds and you gotta =go to school to study how to paint that stuff. "Cause, in France, if = So, I don't know. I've been teaching literature in College for over =thirty years, and the longer I go on, the less sure I become about where =the arts begin and the crafts leave off. I know (or I'm led to assume) =there's a difference between the two on some academic level, but in =practice, I'm not always able to distinguish one from the other. For =one thing, though, I know the crafts always produce something =functional, whereas the arts produce nothing of any earthly, practical =use. Maybe that's why we always want to put the arts on that "lofty =pedestal." The crafts suggest practicality and work, whereas the arts =whisper mysteriously of a lost dream -- namely, that we all secretly =WISH we could hang around doing absolutely nothing of any conceivable = a living, paint it nice colors and get college professors to go ="oooohh and aahhhh!" Steve, I'm just pulling your leg. No offense, buddy. Next time I = you a tall cold one. Cheers, Bill --You bet, Bill, Reminds me of discussions long ago over lots of tall cold ones, when =I was a lot younger. Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60 - sounds sort of like Gillum, Dickerson, Garrison, Young, Payne and a = other folks whose fly rods come to mind -- or John Zimny and Jon = certainly it can't be art.So, let's see -- the difference = masters (artists) never reproduced stuff that someone else had = done.But they used paint that, presumably, they didn't each = their application was on a flat, two dimensional surface like all = an' lots of puffy (or thunderous) clouds and you gotta go to school = you don't get hung in the Louvre. So, I don't know. = teaching literature in College for over thirty years, and the longer = on, the less sure I become about where the arts begin and the crafts = crafts always produce something functional, whereas the arts produce = practicality and work, whereas the arts whisper mysteriously of a = -- namely, that we all secretly WISH we could hang around doing = you a tall cold one.Cheers, Bill--You bet, Bill,Reminds me of discussions long ago over lots of tall= ones, when I was a lot younger.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE4654.EA4D8A60-- from saweiss@flash.net Fri Jan 22 23:38:44 1999 Subject: Re: forms Now let me see. A craftsman is concerned with the quality of his work.Art is concerned about the originality of the work. In other words, if Imake a really fine rod, no matter how original the finish (specialwindings, coloring, engraved handle, etc.) it will never be art; but if Ido a really ratty job, mount it in a frame and get someone to buy it, Ihave made a piece of art? Many years ago while I was in college, I would occasionally stroll throughthe fine art/architecture building to view the latest art exhibit. Thefine art department regularly featured an artist with an exhibit of hiswork. I remember several pieces of "art" from one particular exhibit.There were several exquisitely done paintings of dead rats. Also includedwas a painting of a menstruating nude. The other piece I remember was apicture frame with half of a partially burned yellow commode seat with a(what looked like a turn of the century) newspaper picture of a couple ofmen in 19th century bathing suits, glued to the remaining end of the 'seat. How then to define art? By the medium? Does half of a commode seatrescued from the local dump qualify but a varnished piece of bamboo doesnot? Art does not require quality of workmanship but it doesn't excludeiteither. To try and define art by exclusion is to err. Maybe by what itdoes? Is an original, one of a kind chair to be excluded and an oilpainting not? Then what is the difference? One is enjoyed by the eye,theother by the backside. Most (if not all) hand made rods are (in my mind atleast) works of art. Can another be hand made exactly like it? What isthe difference between the rods of just one maker? Just variations on atheme? What about one artist's paintings? Aren't they also just"variations on his theme". Onis,I agree, lots of stuff called art is not. And some things that have functioncan be art, such as architecture. And beauty can be found in the form ofmany things. But if you can reproduce Rembrandts ( or Payne lookalikes) bythe dozens, does that make you an artist or a craftsman?Steve from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 22 23:57:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:57:27 +0000 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Jasper Thread I don't know how large a stock of it he has -- I just bought a spool fromhim (hasn't arrived, yet) and he just sold a spool on E-Bay for over $110!!!(It is old Granger stock.) Belvoirdale also lists it on their website(smaller spool for, I believe, $10) -- but I never got an answer to mye-mail inquiries (I tried twice). Good luck,George Bourke(with a bunch of Shakespeares, South Bends, and Grangers needingblack/whitejasper)-----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Jasper Thread I think Dick Spurr still has some. Contact him at spurr@kingfisher.com. 980 yd. spools run $50. -----Original Message-----From: Jim Tefft [SMTP:jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu]Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:02 PM Subject: Jasper Thread Listmembers, I have a fellow TU club memeber who is refinishing a bamboo rod(fordisplay)and would like to find a source for a Black/White threadwhich Ibelieve has a make or trade name of Jasper ? Does anyone haveinformation where it can be obtained ? Appreciate the help and if information is incorrect the correctnameetc. Jim Tefft. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 23 00:17:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:17:25 +0000 Subject: Re: forms Would you consider manufacturing a flute (musical instrument variety) tobean art or a craft? There are flutes displayed as art (primarily ones madeof glass). George Bourke-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: forms Bill, DITO. If you can make forms you can join the club. It's the sameasbuying a blank and saying I made a Bamboo rod by hand. It is just not thesame by any means. We are trying to duplicate an artform onegenerationremoved. We have better sources of supplies, tools and information. Ifwegoout and just have someone else do the hard work, we cannot say it is ourcreation. Like I said in the first post, this is an art and we mustcrawlbefore we walk with the masters! thanksstuartvery soon to be a rod builder Stuart,Having majored in art history in college, I take exception to peoples'tendency to confuse art with craft. There undoubtedly were mastercraftsmenof bamboo flyrods in the past and there are certainly some today. Therearenot however, bamboo flyrods hanging in our National Gallery or in theLouvrewith the paintings by Van Gogh, Picasso, Renoir, Rembrandt and others.Onenever saw these old masters striving to reproduce something thatsomeoneelse had already done. They mastered their craft, then went beyond thatlevel to express their true genius through great originality.I am striving to be a good craftsman of bamboo flyrods and I will beproud to achieve that. I will not delude myself that I have produced aworkof art.Steve from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 00:38:11 1999 Subject: Re: forms Would you consider manufacturing a flute (musical instrument variety) tobean art or a craft? There are flutes displayed as art (primarily ones madeof glass). George Bourkemostly craft, George, especially the first student's flute that I bought higher-quality silver flute--still a piece of craftsmanship, probably theproduct of several workers.Steve from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 00:58:34 1999 23:01:23 PST Subject: rodmaking as art ... Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice's opinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and I enter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magic taking place, where all that matters is planing a strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never as an apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use these masterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ... but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on the water than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that I might loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bits of bamboo stuck together with string. And to that I'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is just some wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Chris- tian_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from stpete@netten.net Sat Jan 23 02:14:20 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA21128 for ;Sat, 23 Jan 1999 02:14:11 Subject: Adhesive Poll OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sat Jan 23 03:43:36 1999 mail.geocities.co.jp(8.9.1-1.1G/8.9.1-GEOCITIES1.1) with ESMTP id SAA07733 for; Sat, 23Jan 1999 18:43:32 +0900 (JST) Subject: Something wrong? Hello, Is anybody out there? I returned home after a week absence. Receivedfew messages.I did unsubscribe/subscribe, of-course. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 04:16:47 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:15:32 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Dear Rick I`m an swiss and european rodmaker - excuse tha`t i don`t know Shell epon,Titebond and stuff like these. I have experience with 3 glues for rodbuilding - the first is swiss madeandavailabele trough a hobby-store called MIGROS. Good glue, but dries veryquickly, for me a bit to fast.The other is also a swissmade glue, but think wellknown in other parts inEurope and also in the US - the glue calls ARALDIT. Also a good glue, andand 2 component epoxyd-glue. The glue i use today is an one component glue, white in color and clearwhenhe`s dry.He dries also quickly, after 2 days the rod is ready to work further. Forbinding i haveca. 8-10 minutes time.I don`t know the name of this glue, i have it from Mr. Michael Huelsenbeckin Germany(Fax ++49 2196 792304, has no e- mail!). He sells also small quantitys. Heimports the glue from Scandinavia, mabye our friends from Sverige andNorwayknow`s more about the exact name of this glue. I tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from saltwein@swbell.net Sat Jan 23 06:17:04 1999 GAA01719 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jan 23 06:20:23 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:19:51 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Something wrong? Max,I have just returned from being away for 6 days and there were 178messages. Tony On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Max Satoh wrote: Hello, Is anybody out there? I returned home after a week absence. Receivedfew messages.I did unsubscribe/subscribe, of-course. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail(English):maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page(English):http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod/index.htmlemail(Japanese):maxrod@geocities.comHome Page(Japanese):http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum-Acropolis/2169 /***********************************************************************/Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html Always fish with a bamboo rod, drink good wine and sail.Life is too short. /***********************************************************************/ from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 07:07:43 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:07:01 +0100 (MET) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Sv: Adhesive Poll Dear Carsten and Freinds The glue can be thinned with water, and i do straightening by heat with aheatgun. Alsoi never had problems with heat-straightening, also is the glue absolutlywaterproof after drying.I think the blank is not very bendable while heat-straightening, and i doheat-straightening after gluing.There nothing written on the glas my glue is inside, but this is not theoriginalpackage - Mr. Huelsenbeck ships the glue not in the original pack. He saidto me,he has the glue from another - scandinavian - rodmaker. Carsten, if you know "my glue", what are your experiences with it? CordiallyStefan Grau Carsten Jorgensen schrieb: -----Original Message-----From: Stefan Grau Cc: Rodmakers Listproc Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:21 AMSubject: Re: Adhesive Poll Stefan wrote (snipped) Hallo Stefan How about a dane asking a few questions about Your glue? 1. Is it thinnable with water?2. Do You straighten Yor rods by application of heat, when they areglued?If so, are the rods very bendable?3 Does the letters PVA or Casco or other words appear on the tube?if so, please tell me. I think I now what kind of glue, You are using, but pleaseanswer the above questions, and I'll be back regards, Carsten JorgensenI tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick -- S. Grau`s atelier edelweissswiss handmade bamboorodshttp://bamboorods.hypermart.net from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 23 07:14:29 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AB914EB0132; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:16:01 MST Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:13:07 -0700 From: channer Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll At 02:07 AM 1/23/99 -0600, you wrote:OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Rick;I have been using Epon,too. I don't have anymore trouble straightening thesectiona after the glue sets up with it than I did with Urac, and with thelonger open time, I don't have as much to do. If it is giving you troubleright out of the binder, hang the sections with a few pounds hanging offthe bottom for 3 or 4 hours, then go over them again. Also, I find that Iput a lot of bend in the sections cleaning the excess glue off when theycome out of the binder, so I clean them while they are going thru thebinder. I just hold a rag wrung out in vinegar on the outfeed side ,turning and rinsing the rag as necessary. That is the greaat thing aboutepoxies, you have so much open time you can do these things. John from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 07:58:27 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Steve,I used URAC when I began and while I didn't think it was the be- allandend-all I was planning to use it again when I got back into this. I didn'tcare for the potlife but I also HATED the shelf-life! I was using about $3worth of glue per rod when I cosidered how much I had to throw away attheend of the year. Luckily I met Bill Fink for a fishing trip and he talked up EPON. I wentaround and around and decided to give it a try ( a pretty big decision whenyou consider it's about $40 a unit, which is 2 qts). I WILL NEVER GOBACK!!! He says the supply lasts practically forever, it has a potlifecomparable to that of a mayfly and is cold-straightenable for about 18hours. If there's a down-side, I haven't found it yet (after 7 rods). Ialso have his experiences using it in industry and for rods for overI-don't-know- how-many-years.RICK: If you're getting twists, try putting more wraps of maskingtape onthe blank and leaving them on while you bind (Jon Linvet suggested thisrecently and I merely took it with a grain of salt 'til yesterday- -ThanksJon!). I just did 3 rods yesterday and the only one with twists was the onewhere the tape didn't stay on as I bound it together. I don't know when orwhy it came off but I have to believe that it's connected. I also foundthat if you use thinner string you can more easily see the bends and twistsin the rod while you're working on it.If you want another glowing recommendation, e- mail Chris Bogartdirectly.I've heard him enthuse over it in ways that make my acclamations soundtepid.God bless Bill ,Art At 06:19 AM 1/23/99 -0800, Steve wrote:Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from mrmac@tcimet.net Sat Jan 23 08:03:14 1999 Rodmakers Subject: Re: Jasper Thread A couple months back I bought some of the black and white jasperElephant thread Grahame has to offer. I had emailed him with nosuccess, so I contacted him by telephone. Maybe a call will work better Disclaimer, drafted by a plaque of lawyers, notarized by my mother andother saints) is (215) 886-7211 or a FAX line (215) 886-1804. I don't recall which size the thread is, 40 or 60, and it's not markedon the spool. from cattanac@wmis.net Sat Jan 23 08:24:01 1999 t2.wmis.net (8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP Subject: Re: Art? Tony -Years ago there was an article interviewing the many graphite rodmakers - one of the areas that was covered was that of how soft agraphiterod could be made - while at Sage the author cast a very petiteexperimentalrod that they had made - the comment( from the Sage folks) about the rodwasthat it was too delicate to servive in the real world. Last summer I castseveral of there new offerings - their slower series - I think that theywere the SP+ series - The 7'0" and the 8'0" did cast quite well - and I wasquite surprised myself remembering back to the article and Mr. Green'scomments.I guess that the explaination would be that the Sir D is at the upperend of the speed curve of bamboo and that the SP+ is at the lower end ofcurrent graphite design - this may be an area of overlay. Also I think thatthis is reflective of the cycle of the graphite rod market - they need toresale the product - the cycle appears to be every 2 years. Remember thematerial chase of a few years ago - If you are familiar with the economyofa fly shop you will understand why this cycle exists. Rod sales underwritemost fly shops.Other comments to the list have brought back the thread of Art. I wouldsuspect that if you were to do a polling of current living recognizedmakers. Most would tell you that they want their rods used for thedesignedintent - that is fished. Todays rods reflect the best of both worlds -pleasing to the eye but yet are pleasing in use as well. I assure you thatthe makers I know who offer rods to the public are as concerned with thefunction of those rods as they are with the shine that sells. As unpopularas the comment may be to some - the best bamboo fly rods ever made arebeingmade today and some of them are being made by individuals that most maynotrecognize.If you can find them there are 3 issues of The Rodmakers' GuildNewsletter from 1947 floating around out there. In reading them you willseethat the same questions and concerns are being raised today as in 1947.Youmight say that the issues are the same just that there are different namesattached. They too were asking what techniques and products were thebest touse trying to push the level of the craft forward. I suspect the the riff isthat each of us may define progress differantly. from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Sat Jan 23 08:49:17 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:47:10 +0100 (MET) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Art? Good new times I have also a "plastic"-rod i use, if i don`t have the need for one of mysplit cane rods ( and that`s very seldom).In my small mountain creeks, in hot summer and when the water is veryclear, notdeep and the trouts rise only to the smalles flies or nymphs, i use the"Orvisone-weight".After 4 years of fishing this rod, it`s always not bad to fishing thisplastic-stick, a very light, slow and crisp action. Another thing about SAGE;Think has seen her "new stuff", the rod with the integrated reel in an oldbook- think Hardy has made the same "invention" ca. hundert years ago? Well, time changes not often..... Wayne Cattanach schrieb: Tony -Years ago there was an article interviewing the many graphite rodmakers - one of the areas that was covered was that of how soft agraphiterod could be made - while at Sage the author cast a very petiteexperimentalrod that they had made - the comment( from the Sage folks) about the rodwasthat it was too delicate to servive in the real world. Last summer I castseveral of there new offerings - their slower series - I think that theywere the SP+ series - The 7'0" and the 8'0" did cast quite well - and Iwasquite surprised myself remembering back to the article and Mr. Green'scomments.I guess that the explaination would be that the Sir D is at the upperend of the speed curve of bamboo and that the SP+ is at the lower end ofcurrent graphite design - this may be an area of overlay. Also I thinkthatthis is reflective of the cycle of the graphite rod market - they need toresale the product - the cycle appears to be every 2 years. Remember thematerial chase of a few years ago - If you are familiar with the economyofa fly shop you will understand why this cycle exists. Rod salesunderwritemost fly shops.Other comments to the list have brought back the thread of Art. Iwouldsuspect that if you were to do a polling of current living recognizedmakers. Most would tell you that they want their rods used for thedesignedintent - that is fished. Todays rods reflect the best of both worlds -pleasing to the eye but yet are pleasing in use as well. I assure you thatthe makers I know who offer rods to the public are as concerned with thefunction of those rods as they are with the shine that sells. As unpopularas the comment may be to some - the best bamboo fly rods ever made arebeingmade today and some of them are being made by individuals that mostmay notrecognize.If you can find them there are 3 issues of The Rodmakers' GuildNewsletter from 1947 floating around out there. In reading them youwill seethat the same questions and concerns are being raised today as in 1947.Youmight say that the issues are the same just that there are differentnamesattached. They too were asking what techniques and products were thebest touse trying to push the level of the craft forward. I suspect the the riff isthat each of us may define progress differantly. --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from jczimny@dol.net Sat Jan 23 08:54:42 1999 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll I wouldn't try to dissuade you from using any other adhesives. However,I'm hearing a lot aboutthe short pot-life of urea formaldehydes. In order to increase pot-life,simply decrease theamount of catalyst in the mix. One should be able to achieve 45 to 50minutes of pot-life. Ifyou insist on using the walnut shell at least get the "summer" catalyst.This contains less acidsalt and will slow down the reaction.John Zimny -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 09:08:49 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Chris- tian_________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 09:18:58 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll The manufacturers of urac cover themselves with a short shelf lifebecausemost users are industrial and do not protect the adhesive from moistureetc.If you store the powder in a container with a tight fitting lid with silicacrystals the adhesive will last for several years.When the glue starts to get lumpy when mixed, it should not be used.This information was passed on to me by an expert at Cyanamid.Terry Steve wrote: Rick Crenshaw wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick Several questions come to mind Rick. How much open time do you havewiththis glue? How difficult is the clean up? What is its shelf life? I have been using urac 185. The open time of twenty minutes or so reallymakes one feel rushed. The shelf life of 6-12 months is short. I amconsidering Nyatex. Are there urac users who would try to dissuade me? from Venneris@aol.com Sat Jan 23 09:25:07 1999 Subject: test This is a test I have been having trouble with old screen name and amtrying anew one. Hope this works. Any one else having trouble Best regards,Bob VRobert Venneri's Custom Components21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY i2477914 246 5882http://members.aol.com/venneris/home.html from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 11:00:34 1999 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: forms Steve,First let me apologize for coming on so strong but I love a goodphilosophical discussion. Everyone has their own definition of art. That said, here is mine. Acraftsman pursues quality. An artist expresses himself. Can anyonereallyhand copy an original without putting some of himself into the work? Whatis the difference between copying the original and copying the style? Consider the lowly fly. Tying flies is considered an art form. I'mspeaking of those who have taken it completely out of fishing. They are asdedicated to producing a work of art as any painter. The only reason theseflies are made is to be displayed and appreciated for their artisticappeal. So where do they differ from those made only to catch fish. Icontend it is the guy that made it. Craftsmanship and art are as different as apples and oranges. They arerelated only in that craftsmanship is perceived to improve art. I.e.,later works of an artist are perceived as being "better" than his earlierworks. Art can be created without craftsmanship; little children do it allthe time. Craftsmanship is learned; art is not. All the education thereis cannot create an artist. It can be used to maximize what is alreadythere but it cannot create what is not there. Is Jazz art? It is an original expression of the "artist"(?). I thinkmost people consider it art. So what is the difference between the Jazzmusician and the classical "artist" whose job is to reproduce exactly thenotes created by the composer? To me it's not whether a thing is art but rather how much. I believe youwould be hard pressed to find any hand made article, rods included, thatwas totally devoid of any influence by it's maker. Even the guys who"assemble" plastic rods strive to embellish them with attractive wrapsandsuch. Is this not art? How many on this list only "reproduce" the works of the old masters. Howmany make and use the varnish, techniques and exact materials andspecifications of Payne, Garrison, Granger, etc. To be only craftsmanship,there must be no artistic input. Does using someone else's taper negatethe art content. What about the painter who buys a primed canvass; ready Anyway, enough of that. I agree with you that art and craft are confusingand confused. It is not however, whether it's one or the other but ratherhow much of each. Think of it like this; on one end is the faithful(nooriginal input) reproduction of the greatest fly rod ever made...purecraft. On the other end is another fly rod. Made only as an expression ofthe builder with no intent of fishing at all; purely artistic,craftsmanship is totally ignored. Between these two extremes arevariouscombinations of artistic content and craft. With the exception of theendpoints, none are completely free of artistic content or craft; just amatter of degree. Just my nickel's worth (to much for $.02). Best RegardsOnisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,I agree, lots of stuff called art is not. And some things that have functioncan be art, such as architecture. And beauty can be found in the form ofmany things. But if you can reproduce Rembrandts ( or Payne lookalikes)bythe dozens, does that make you an artist or a craftsman?Steve from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 11:13:39 1999 ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll I also use Epon. I use Titebond II also. I build nodeless rods and want avery good bond for the splices; for that I use Titebond II. For gluing thestrips together, I want a long working time and good strength after theglue sets. I am completely satisfied with the Epon for this. I would use epoxy to glue splices but my tests have shown Titebond II isstronger for this application. I would like a glue that is both strong andheat resistant for splices but I haven't found it yet. Polyurethane glueis as temperature resistant as I would like but is not as resistant tosplice failure as Titebond II. My tests are to make a (several)splice,glue and let set for a few days, then bend it(them) to put the most stresson the splice until it breaks. The only glue that I've found(epoxiesincluded) that will produce a break like an non-glued strip is Titebond II.It would be nice if it were as temperature resistant as polyurethane glue. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comOK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was pretty close),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick from jourdoktorn@pilot.stjarntv.se Sat Jan 23 11:26:04 1999 with ESMTP id AAA197 for ;Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:18:32 +0100 Subject: George Fraley on the list? Fellows of the list! A couple of weeks ago I bought a Prefire Leonard 51, 9',3pieces/2t through eBay. The rod is mint restored to its originalcondition and should have been so by mr George Fraley who studiedwith mr D. Whitehead. I would very much appreciate if someonecould inform me how to reach him. BestJan Nystrom from rmoon@ida.net Sat Jan 23 11:51:11 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 12:33:01 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane over twostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be a weakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from stpete@netten.net Sat Jan 23 12:38:19 1999 cedar.netten.net(8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA18730; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:37:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Ralph, You make an excellent point. It is the builders like Onis, ChrisBogart, John Zimny and many others test materials and who gather enoughexperience and data to speak with some authority on such subjects. Butyou cannot deny that the purpose of this list is to discuss experiencesand discoveries made in the bamboo rodmaking craft (there I said it). I would love to experiment with all sorts of adhesives, but I'm only onrods 4 and 5. I don't think that it is beyond the scope of the list toask the more experienced rodmakers if they are willing to share theirexperiences with us newbies. Heck, we have to start somewhere. I hadto purchase an adhesive or epoxy to make my first rod. Titebond II wascheap and readily available. I had difficulty with it. Perhaps Ididn't use it properly, I'm not sure. But when I needed anotheradhesive, I scoured the archives and decided upon Epon. I'm sure othershave decided on using Urac, Nyatex or Resourcinal based onrecommendations from the list, Cattanach, Garrison and otherauthorities. I simply haven't had the time, money, or energy topurchase and test them all. Perhaps over time I will. Until then, Idon't mind asking others their reflections regarding adhesives based ontheir EXPERIENCES, many of which may be similar to mine. In the meantime, I join you in commending those who work to test andresearch different materials and methods. They are the blood and gutsof this list and without them the list would be of little practical use.I build rods strictly as a recreation and understand that those whobuild professionally need not and perhaps should not divulge tradesecrets. And perhaps the lazy among us should be chastised for alwayswanting more than we contribute. Not all of us are in a position torecommend ourselves as experts, but those who are willing to share aremuch appreciated and the advise they give will be taken as a startingpoint and not the last word on the subject. Rick Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ralph from jkallo@midwest.net Sat Jan 23 12:56:34 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Rick et al., thusfar and will use it to glue up a third tommorrow night. I don't reallyhave anything to compare it to, but I have been generally happy with it. Itdoes have a long working time (about an hour) and is fully cured within 24(according to the Elmer's people). The negatives are the higher cost (Ifigure about $2 a rod) and the incredible bond the stuff makes withskin-- gloves are really necessary. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 23 13:55:21 1999 ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I am gettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane overtwostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be a weakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Too manyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, I knowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experiment asyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Jan 23 14:47:45 1999 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Where can I get the book? List,I put out some posts and was wondering if they came thru on the list as Inever got the posts myself. One was on a 7'6" bamboo spinning rod did youguysget it?Bret from FlyTyr@southshore.com Sat Jan 23 15:14:19 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP 15:16:01 -0600 Subject: Forms This turned out to be a little long, if it is old stuff just "D" key it. I am not an old timer at this, well maybe old in age.Getting back to the forms, I hesitated in replying but then I thoughtsomeone might get some good from this. I had my steel stock drilled andthreaded for three years looking for someone who could mill the "V"grove for me. I never did find any one that would even considered doingit. I had Wayne's book and read it over and over and decided that thecondition my hands were in I could never do all that hand filing. I wasreally intimidated about doing it by hand. Besides, I was told byseveral machinist that you could never hand file to those tolerances. Iwas fortunate to be where I could talk to Wayne and he convinced me Icould do it. I laid out the forms with the taper as in the book. Insteadof using a file, I used a $20.00 4" grinder to remove most of theexcess metal. It only took about 20 minuets. Cleaned up the metal andscrewed the two pieces back together so that the two sides were flush.With a vixen file mounted on a flat piece of wood with a strip of woodon each side to act as a guide to keep it flat, I filed the top andbottom smooth again. I had originally done this before I did anygrinding. Kepy check on it with a small square. If you have a router itis an easy task to make a groove in the wood for the file and guidestrips. I then came up with the idea that I could use a triangle filethat is 60 degrees to make the groove. I started out with I think .058on the butt side of the taper and increased it .005 every five inches.The 5" stations were also marked. This is the space between the insideflat sides adjusted by the push pull screws. The triangle file wasmounted to a piece of flat hard wood and used as the vixen file wasused, except it filed the "V" groove. The taper in the forms areactually set in reverse, wide at the tip end and narrow at the butt end.Kept a check on the progress with a 60 degree gauge and much to mysurprise it stayed a honest 60 degrees. The depth gauge was also used tocheck the depth at the 5" marks. When there was .005 increase at eachstation I quit filing . Did the tip side the same way but I think Istarted out with .035. To smooth the groove I used some 320 wet or drysanding cloth. With the forms closed I have .015 depth at the tip and.052 at the butt. Every inch increases by .001. I thought it impossibleto get that close. Took it back to the machine shop, he wanted to knowwhere I got it done. When I told him, he got his depth gauge and checkedit out. All he had to say, I'll be D----. Total time in making thegrooves, three evenings.What I an trying to say, if you are thinking about making metal forms goat it, don't let it scare you. I could had mine ready three yearssooner. If you are not aquatinted with drilling and tapping then getthat done by someone that has the equipment. You can do the restyourself.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 16:06:31 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Hi Onis,I am not so sure about Tite-bond II, I do not think it is up to it, it has noheat resistance at all.There is a 2 part cross-linkable pva on the market that the ForestProductsLab. say has improved resistance to heat and moisture.I have not tried it but it looks promising. Custompac market their versionofin small shop quantities.Contact Jeff Pitcher (Mr. Sticky) athttp://www.custompac.com/cusbond.htmHe is a very knowledgeable guy and runs an adhesive forum on thewoodweb. Hehas helped me with questions regarding high frequency gluingI do not know this product and it would probably be no good to repair theoldStrad with but could well be ok for fishing poles.Regards Terry Onis Cogburn wrote: Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I amgettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Onis,have you or any builder had any failed rods using Urac?If you test formaldehyde based adhesives by just running a plane overtwostrips of bamboo and then gluing and wrapping the results will be aweakjoint.These adhesives require very close mating surfaces and unless you getthatcondition on the test pieces the results will be poor.T.Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Onis I must commend you for doing your own testing on adhesives. Toomanyhave a propensity for polling the list and picking the most popular. Ihave made the point countless times about my feeling on URAC, Iknowthat it is used by many very good rod makers, including some I havegreat respect for. However, I used it and in my own mind pegged it asthe least desirable adhesive to use in rod building (excluding flourpaste of course.) I have no intention of trying to persuade anyone tomy way of thinking. The best way to pick your glue is to experimentasyou have done, and make a decision that fits your own particularrequirements. Again, my commendation Ralph from gaff@carol.net Sat Jan 23 17:44:23 1999 Subject: shoulder bolts hey guys,i don,t know art from craft.i do, however, need some shoulder bolts for my form.if any body knows where i may buy themm i sure would like to knowabout it.thanking you very much.wil from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jan 23 17:47:39 1999 Subject: crosslinked pva sorry, try this http://www.custompak.com/adhesive.htmThe product that looked interesting was MPA X-TERIOR a two partadhesive from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 18:08:36 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll Onis,I don't think you'll find URAC "locally" until and unless you move to IronMountain Mich. The Nelson Paint Co ( located there) and Highland Hardwareare the only two purveyors of it in under 50 gal drums that I'm aware of(Highland has a catalog---I think they're in the southeast).Take care,Art At 01:51 PM 1/23/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com from lblan@provide.net Sat Jan 23 19:27:18 1999 Subject: RE: Art; was: Re: Forms Onis; this is easy... a very good friend of mine explains it: When you go into the fly shop and they want or need something, you're anartist. When you go in to discuss the price, you're a craftsman. This is with the knowledge that you're not talking about standard flies... Ijust couldn't help it! :) -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: Re: forms Consider the lowly fly. Tying flies is considered an art form. I'mspeaking of those who have taken it completely out of fishing.They are asdedicated to producing a work of art as any painter. The only reasontheseflies are made is to be displayed and appreciated for their artisticappeal. So where do they differ from those made only to catch fish. Icontend it is the guy that made it. from channer@hubwest.com Sat Jan 23 19:36:42 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A9833720162; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:38:11 MST Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll At 01:51 PM 1/23/99 -0600, Onis Cogburn wrote:Hi Terry,I haven't tried Urac...yet. It is not readily available in Austin, Texas.I haven't excluded it however. I regularly evaluate my constructionmethods for ways I can improve them. Right now I am using the sandingdiskmethod described on the Rodmakers page. I have a disk and fence on awoodturning lathe that I use to prepare the splices. I doubt that the surfaceis smooth enough for Urac, however I will try it if/when I locate itlocally. The sanding method is good enough to produce a splice as strongas the bamboo with Titebond; but Titebond is heat sensitive so I am stilllooking for the "right" glue for splicing. A splicing block is certainlyan option. I have considered using one however with the joint I amgettingwith Titebond and the quickness of preparing the splice with the sandingdisk, there is little insentative unless I can get the glue to warrent it.Onis;I think you can pretty much forget about buying Urac locally. It is anindustrial glue that really has no retail sales outlet, if you want it, youhave to order it from Nelson Paint(look at the rodmakers page). I thinkWeldwood Plastic Resin glue is the closest thing you will find locally. John from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 19:47:24 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... There is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Very true Terry,There is probably more need today than ever before for true craftsmen.Thevalues and discipline needed are not part of people's education anymore.Most of the "widgets" we buy are throwaways and are planned to beobsoletein about 6 months anyway.Buy a graphite rod and you will be depressed next year when the samecompanyhas what they claim is a revolutionary new material.Steve from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jan 23 20:08:04 1999 Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:04:07 -0500 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... =_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760 Terry is right. There is nothing wrong with being a craftsman! So, Iwonder why craftsmen are often so "touchy" about not being calledartists.And I wonder why artists are so "touchy" when they are called craftsmen. Seems thereare a LOT of delicate egos in circulation. But I wonder why "art" is reserved beautiful and useful things. And I revere the people who can make them. So, who really cares about the gatekeepers who assign terminology? Cheers, Bill ----------From: Terence Ackland Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: rodmaking as art ...Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 7:10 AM How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ... or is it? Cheers, Christian _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760 = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4713.D9360760-- from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jan 23 20:10:30 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as well astotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from anglport@con2.com Sat Jan 23 21:27:43 1999 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All,As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone ever seenthesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol He said to start with 500 grains of the resorcinol for a single rod.Again, if this is old knowledge or useless I hope someone will say so. Ihave never seen it mentioned on the list before and I've never tried itmyself. I glued up one rod with regular resorcinol, a bunch of them withURAC and finally found a home with EPON.Art At 07:10 PM 1/23/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Jan 23 22:32:22 1999 216.mmtl.videotron.net) sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA) My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to twoweeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'mnot sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with theoil.I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal,Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, shouldIbe concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore theblank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishing in acouple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for how long? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA) first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to = I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm = whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'm = in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) but = suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should I be concerned = moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore the blank for now and = another heat treament prior to varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, = a temperature and for how long? in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --Boundary_(ID_daWHFZ/QjjOqedE0okTnjA)-- from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Sat Jan 23 23:44:22 1999 21:43:02 PST Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Terence, Good to see your posts haven't lost any of their impatient bulldog color in the year of the rabbit ;-) If this or my last post sounded long-winded or full of self-praise ... forgive a erstwhile rodmaking apprentice in need of more humility [and editorialcontrol] ... but my feelings remain the same. If the craftsman ... and Stradivarius was considered a craftman working out of a shop in Cremona ... knew that his instruments could be currently exchanged for multi-million dollar castles ... I don't doubt that he'd be at least bemused ... Probably, Mr. Gillum and other perfection-minded rodmakers whose rods are currently trading hands at plus or minus $10,000 would be at least amused tooto know how much their rods are desired. But then, [I think it can be safely argued] truecraftmen aren't looking to make piles of money ... as craftsmen they were trying to make the best instrumentthey knew how. They crafted excellent tools which did more than just make noise or catch fish ... and for this reason, their instruments are highly appreciated ... whether for sounding that high "c" or throwing a line with uncommon grace. Yes, anyone with a some line and corn on a hook can put a hole in a fish's jaw. Sure, anyone with piles of money can buy a Stradivarius and make some music. However, can anyone use either instrument with finesse, confidence and authority ... and not a little joy? I think such musicians and anglers are rare. There are special, and I mean "special" rod builders out there. I am not one of them. However, the perfection-minded amateur and professional craftsmen who won't allow 2nd quality rods out the door are special. There is a certain spirituality about someone who dedicates a large part of his life to rodbuilding with humility and passion ... with little or no expectation of monetary reward ... only the joy that comes doing something with as much feeling and eye to perfection as possible. And to me, that person is an artist. Your fellow craftman[-in-training], Christian ---Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius? Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison. There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million. This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea to visit cane rods dealer and let them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely on self praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation" I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry on into the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Turbotrk@aol.com Sun Jan 24 02:03:18 1999 Subject: test testing , this is just a test ....... from peter@chickerell.u-net.com Sun Jan 24 07:47:12 1999 Subject: Re Minimum list of Tools needed to build rods and Re a questionon behalf of MarcusWarwick. boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320 Thanks for replying to my enquiries. I am sorry not to have replied to =them as yet, I have been having problems with my new modem. I will reply=individually in due course. With respect to the answers for Marcus, I will forward them on to him, =especially the references to various web sites. I will ask him how he =extracts moisture from his bamboo before he begins his planing and put =it out to the list for interest. regards Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320 To all on the list who replied tomy = separate e-mails. Thanks for replying to myenquiries. = not to have replied to them as yet, I have been having problems with my = modem. I will reply individually in due course. With respect to the answers for = forward them on to him, especially the references to various web sites. = ask him how he extracts moisture from his bamboo before he begins his = and put it out to the list for interest. Thanks Again regards =Peter. ------=_NextPart_000_0101_01BE47A0.04C4D320-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Jan 24 08:10:21 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:07:41 -0600 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28" --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28 Richard,If you're worried about moisture re-entry, try the simplesolution I use. Put your blank in a piece of pvc pipe, capped onboth ends; (one end has a threaded cap) along with some silica geldessicant. The gel absorps the moisture, rather than allowing therod sections to do so. Devise some simple way of keeping thesilica out of direct contact with the rod. Once a week or so, byheating the dessicant gel in the microwave for a few minutes youdrive off what moisture it has absorped.Silica gel is easy to find. Mine came in about a 4"x4" papercontainer (looks like a coffee filter). You can get it at flowershops. They use it for drying flowers. George Maurer's bookreccomends a half pound of silica, and rod sections in long skinnyplastic bags.There are much more complicated solutions. But I think simpleis best. Harry Boyd BTW, I'm in Louisiana. We invented humidity. Our averagehumidity is about 75%, and this simple solution works for me. Richard Nantel wrote: My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it forabout one to two weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a coupleof coats of tung oil since I'm not sure whether the varathane Iintend to use later will work with the oil. I'm located in whatis usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, Canada) butwe're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should Ibe concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament priorto varnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high atemperature and for how long?Thanks inadvance,Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28 Richard, on both ends; (one end has a threaded cap) along with some silica gel The gel absorps the moisture, rather than allowing the rod sections to contact with the rod. Once a week or so, by heating the dessicant gel in absorped. about Maurer's book reccomends a half pound of silica, and rod sections in longskinny plastic bags. But I think simple is best. humidity is about 75%, and this simple solution works for me.Richard Nantel wrote: first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one to twoweeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil sinceI'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will work withthe oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal,Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, shouldI be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignorethe blank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishingin a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for howlong?Thanks --------------EDABCFA88A6A67A4B94F2A28-- from rp43640@online-club.de Sun Jan 24 08:36:42 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:36:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll My name is Christian Meinke from Germany. Although having built only asmall number of rods (30) since 1993 I would like to comment on theadhesive discussion: a short information on the glue from scandinavia:this glue is manufacutered by the company: Dana Lim A/S, Kobenhavnsvej 2204600 KogeTlf.nr.: 56640070Faxnr.: 56640090 The product is called DANA PVAc V8There are different glues called DANA PVA the suffixes like the small cand V8 differentiate between the characteristics like: with hardener andwater resistant. The source of Huelsenbeck is probably the by danish, dutch and germanrodmakers wellknown Preben Dorph Joergensen/Denmark. Since there are so many different glue types around let it beconventional glues for wood or epoxies the best way is to get thetechnical data sheet and MSDS's and to talk to customer service.Otherwise it is trial and error and could have disastrous results. Thisis the same with varnishes. The laboratory I am working for has done several tests with competetiveepoxies and these are all very similar. But like always the use of any of these glues is a matter of personaltaste and preferred working methods. Christian---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefan Grau schrieb: Dear Rick I`m an swiss and european rodmaker - excuse tha`t i don`t know Shellepon,Titebond and stuff like these. I have experience with 3 glues for rodbuilding - the first is swiss madeandavailabele trough a hobby-store called MIGROS. Good glue, but dries veryquickly, for me a bit to fast.The other is also a swissmade glue, but think wellknown in other partsinEurope and also in the US - the glue calls ARALDIT. Also a good glue, andand 2 component epoxyd-glue. The glue i use today is an one component glue, white in color and clearwhenhe`s dry.He dries also quickly, after 2 days the rod is ready to work further. Forbinding i haveca. 8-10 minutes time.I don`t know the name of this glue, i have it from Mr. Michael Huelsenbeckin Germany(Fax ++49 2196 792304, has no e- mail!). He sells also small quantitys.Heimports the glue from Scandinavia, mabye our friends from Sverige andNorwayknow`s more about the exact name of this glue. I tested this glue for 3 years and had never any problems. Regards Stefan Rick Crenshaw schrieb: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. I am using Epon 828 and 3140 curing agent. (It's all I've used except I like it because it has a good working time and cleans up well. My complaint is the difficulty in straightening the blanks once theepoxy has set up for a day or two. I guess I could get better atproducing straight blanks to begin with (my first one was prettyclose),and I could get better at straightening right after binding. I spentmore time last rod and only made things worse. My hope is that the rod will be that much more resistant to taking a setonce the rod is in use. Other than that, I think it is very easy to use and I've been extremelypleased. Rick --Lang Info AccessDatenbanken - CD Rom - InternetliteraturInternet: http://www.buchlang.com/infoaccess/Stefan GrauInformation ConsultantMènzgraben 2CH-3011 Berne/Switzerlanddirect phone: ++41 ( 0 ) 31 310 84 91fax: 310 84 94ausgenommen:Montag vormittag,Dienstag nachmittagMittwoch ganzer Tag from caneboy@xtn.net Sun Jan 24 09:01:21 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:00:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercial withRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway. :-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though, andhad agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (intwocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and do thisforyou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get these formsdoneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neither wouldItrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from rcurry@top.monad.net Sun Jan 24 09:50:24 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics. WhenWendell Castle sells a hall table, whether made by him or an apprentice,it is usually considered the work of a craftsman. When Mr Castle carves,as part of the "piece", a Stetson resting on said table and a scarfdraped over the table... it is art. Go figure...We aren't going to solve this. One way to further confuse the issueis to attempt to inject spiritual aspects to wood and glue. (Unless youuse hide glue.)) Neither "Art" nor "Craft" lie in the intent of theperformer; this was the debacle of the '60s and '70s... "my emotion isart". What is significant in rodmaking is not what the craftsman/artistputs INTO the rod, but the performance (and to some small degree,appearance) of the finished product. I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my $.02. Best regards,Reed from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jan 24 10:14:40 1999 (5.5.2407.0) I hope that I am not offending anybody but we seem to be getting carriedaway with our own selfimportance, after all as T.A. said we are just making fishing poles notpainting the Mona Lisa.Stradavary was just a craftsman like the rest of the luthiers at the time,what set him apartand heads and shoulders above the rest was that he was the consummatecraftsman and adjusted hisinstruments to function the best with the material (wood) that he had. Isuspect that not onlyare we making better flyrods today than in the bamboo heyday but we areprobably making betterviolins also. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jan 24 10:21:29 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:17:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll =_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260 Hey Steve,To the best of my knowledge, resorcinal is still regarded as a mostexcellent glue, at least as far as it's bonding qualities are concerned. There are a few negative things about it for the rod-builder, however. Certainly, the dark, mahogany glue line it leaves behind is thought (bymany folks) not to be particularly attractive. But there are a coupleother things too. For one, a good bond with resorcinal depends upon anEXACT mating of all surfaces, since this glue is not at all effective as agap-filler. Resorcinal WILL fill very small gaps, but the bonding strengthjust at these points is hugely diminished. Of course, we all TRY to getperfect mating surfaces anyway, but even our best efforts are not alwaysperfect. And lastly, there is the mess that goes along with this glue. It isdifficult to clean up, especially from one's hands, as it discolors (dyes)the skin. Gloves can be worn, but this is always very clumsy for me whenIneed most of all to be precise.Suit yourself -- certainly there have been hundreds of excellent rods builtwith resorcinal. But remember, "Pinky" Gillum wasn't called pinky fornothing. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Steven Weiss Subject: Re: Adhesive PollDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 6:10 PM OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve------ =_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260 Hey Steve,To the bestof =my knowledge, resorcinal is still regarded as a most excellent glue, at = few negative things about it for the rod-builder, however. = good bond with resorcinal depends upon an EXACT mating of all surfaces, =since this glue is not at all effective as a gap-filler. = efforts are not always perfect. And lastly, there is the mess = especially from one's hands, as it discolors (dyes) the skin. = need most of all to be precise.Suit yourself -- certainly there have = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE478B.10447260-- from briansr@point-net.com Sun Jan 24 10:22:46 1999 0000 Subject: Rodmaking as a art Rodmaking might be an art. Some people might be artists at what they do,buta rodmaker is actually only making a tool to cast a line & go fishing with,not a work of art.That being said, however,Art Port could, IMHO, call hisrods "works of Art".Cheers Brian from mrj@aa.net Sun Jan 24 10:54:01 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:53:40 -0800 "Rodmakers Listproc" Subject: RE: Adhesive Poll I did try the whitening technique described. I only added the titaniumwhitethough. The glue did lighten up but it was pink. For a light rod thisprobably show up less than the dark purple. I have not tried the completerecipe as you described though. Maybe this countered the "pink" problem. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Adhesive Poll All, As long as someone has brought up resorcinol, has anyone everseen thesupposed solution to the purple color-line? I don't remember seeing it inprint anywhere, but Hoagy Carmichael told me once that if you use thefollowing mix you'll come up with bamboo-colored glue. If it's in one ofthe books and I saw it long ago or missed it completely, I apologise. These are all by weight: 100 parts Resorcinol25 parts powdered catalyst4 parts Titanium dioxide powder2 parts mustard colored INERT chemical powder (This was the part hecouldn't recall the name of at the time)12 parts denatured alcohol He said to start with 500 grains of the resorcinol for a single rod.Again, if this is old knowledge or useless I hope someone will say so. Ihave never seen it mentioned on the list before and I've never tried itmyself. I glued up one rod with regular resorcinol, a bunch of them withURAC and finally found a home with EPON.Art At 07:10 PM 1/23/99 -0700, Steven Weiss wrote: OK Guys (and Gals), Lets change the subject. How about a short poll on which adhesive youare using on your rod blanks and a few sentences on what you like anddislike about it. It could be useful to me and some others out there aswell, especially the new comers who have to decide upon an adhesive. Hey folks,What about good old resorcinol? Wouldn't it be good for splices as wellastotal glue-up? Maybe the visible glue lines conflict with the fly rod'sbeing a piece of art. I have just bought some and will be trying it soon.Surely there are a few people still using it.SteveSteve from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 24 10:56:22 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... At 10:52 AM 1/24/99 -0500, reed wrote:This subject is covered, IMHO, well in H.G. Collingwood's"Principles of Aesthetics"."Art"/"Craft" - it is, in this application, largely semantics................ I don't care whether F. E. Thomasbonded with the cane, so long as the cane was well bonded. Just my $.02. Best regards,Reed Reed,Bravo on the Thomas analogy!Art from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 24 11:26:32 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... Chris,Music to me is is one of the greatest achievements of mankind, it has somuch power. Music effects the entire globe, it defines nations. In thegreat scheme of things you cannot compare it to fishing.I am not sure about spirituality in rod making, I do feel better thoughafter a few beers!I treat rod making as an industrial process because it is the only way Ican offer rods that do not vary in performance.It must be me, I cannot see anything particularly incredible about beingable to build a cane rod, I believe anyone can make one.I wanted to build rods because I have always had cane rods and it lookedlike a good pastime. I did not expect it to take me onto a higher plane. Terry Christian THALACKER wrote: Terence, Good to see your posts haven't lost any of theirimpatient bulldog color in the year of the rabbit ;-) If this or my last post sounded long-winded or fullof self-praise ... forgive a erstwhile rodmakingapprentice in need of more humility [and editorialcontrol] ... but my feelings remain the same. If the craftsman ... and Stradivarius wasconsidered a craftman working out of a shop inCremona ... knew that his instruments could becurrently exchanged for multi-million dollar castles... I don't doubt that he'd be at least bemused ... Probably, Mr. Gillum and other perfection-mindedrodmakers whose rods are currently trading hands atplus or minus $10,000 would be at least amused tooto know how much their rods are desired. But then, [I think it can be safely argued] truecraftmen aren't looking to make piles of money ... ascraftsmen they were trying to make the best instrumentthey knew how. They crafted excellent tools which did more thanjust make noise or catch fish ... and for thisreason, their instruments are highly appreciated ...whether for sounding that high "c" or throwing a linewith uncommon grace. Yes, anyone with a some line and corn on a hook canput a hole in a fish's jaw. Sure, anyone with piles of money can buy aStradivarius and make some music. However, can anyone use either instrument withfinesse, confidence and authority ... and not a littlejoy? I think such musicians and anglers are rare. There are special, and I mean "special" rod buildersout there. I am not one of them. However, the perfection-minded amateur andprofessional craftsmen who won't allow 2nd qualityrods out the door are special. There is a certain spirituality about someone whodedicates a large part of his life to rodbuildingwith humility and passion ... with little or noexpectation of monetary reward ... only the joy thatcomes doing something with as much feeling and eye toperfection as possible. And to me, that person is an artist. Your fellow craftman[-in-training], Christian ---Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of caneto a Stradivarius? Even stripped to the basicsthere is no comparison. There is a little more tomaking music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10million. This list is getting stupider andstupider. It might be an idea to visit cane rodsdealer and let them decide whether we are producingworks of art and not rely on self praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is norecommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long asit does not carry on into the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from anglport@con2.com Sun Jan 24 11:27:47 1999 Subject: Re: Rodmaking as a art Brian,Been thinking along those VERY lines !Art At 11:19 AM 1/24/99 -0500, Brian Sturrock wrote:Rodmaking might be an art. Some people might be artists at what they do,buta rodmaker is actually only making a tool to cast a line & go fishing with,not a work of art.That being said, however,Art Port could, IMHO, call hisrods "works of Art".Cheers Brian from dickay@alltel.net Sun Jan 24 11:31:28 1999 LAA13823; Subject: Re: shoulder bolts Wil,You need to go to the industrial machine supply houses. Look in yourYellow Pages for "Machine Tools" or "Industrial Supplies" or "MillSupplies". These places should carry them. Also look for places thatspecialize in bolts and screws. There are three places in our little city(80,000) that specialize in bolt and screws. You need to think wholesalesupply houses.Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----------From: w.d. gatliff Subject: shoulder boltsDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:44 PM hey guys,i don,t know art from craft.i do, however, need some shoulder bolts for my form.if any body knows where i may buy themm i sure would like to knowabout it.thanking you very much.wil from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jan 24 11:31:42 1999 Subject: Re: Making forms vs smelting your own CRS consider me spanked, grouchboy caneboy wrote: Mr Ackland, Shame on you for implying that I have mascohist tendancies!The name 'caneboy' was derived from the recent ESPN commercial withRoger Clemens and 'NETBOY'. Anyway, it sounds better than 'CANEMAN',just trying to show a little humility. Terence Ackland wrote: I think list members must have masochistic tendencies to start rodbuilding inthe first place. This is perhaps why we have a 'caneboy' on the list? Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Rodmaker listfellows, his own planing forms probably has the "right stuff." >> Now, I know what you're saying about making your own forms (and youhaveobviously made your own forms), but that don't make the rest of uslacking inany kind of stuff, "right" or otherwise. People fish for different reasons and people try out making their ownbamboofly rods for different reasons, too. I could take the position that if you're not smelting your own coldrolledsteel you really don't have an appreciation for the time and energyrequiredto form such remarkable material, and hey, what's the hurry anyway.:-) ...and no, I didn't make my own forms. (Made my own binder, though,and had agreat time.) I (and two other guys) have gone through a handful of machinists (intwocountries, I might add!) trying to have three sets made (despite whateveryonetold us, and all the books saying "don't have a machinist try and dothis foryou"). That, in itself has been a learning experience (we may get theseforms doneyet) that I wouldn't trade for any ready-made forms...but neitherwould Itrade it for having to do it all myself. Now I'm not trying to start trouble (well maybe, in a smiley face sortofway), but cripes, it's just a fishin' pole. Russ Lavignefledgeling rodmakers malcontent from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jan 24 11:41:48 1999 Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:37:25 -0500 "Rodmakers (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Humidity in non-varnished blank =_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0 Hello all, Here's a topic worth discussing. Richard Nantel wants to know about theeffects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a rod forfinishing. I, too, would like to hear what you folks think about thisissue. Actually, the question might as easily be asked about preparation We have been told by various builders that it is very important to drive ordraw out all possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, todo the same before finishing). But I wonder how important, in practice,this actually is. I should think it would be important to have surfaces as dry as possible bond for the varnish. But this seems NOT to be what the discussion, as Ihave heard it, is about. Instead, the worry seems to be about the"dangers" of trapping unwanted moisture within the fibers of a rod, andthus building a rod that will remain "soft" in its action. My understanding, however (as I have heard from furniture makers), isthat no matter WHAT we try to do in terms of affecting the moisture contentofwood (or, presumably, bamboo) the material will always equalize itselfaccording to whatever the AMBIENT humidity happens to be. Once the cell structure itself has been reduced as much as it can be by theusual, lengthy drying process, the "bound water" has been driven out andthese cells will remain forever stable in terms of moisture content. Anyremaining moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called"free water." It is only THIS moisture that is bound to migrate both inand out as the ambient humidity changes. And, surprisingly, not even ourmodern poly varnishes can prevent this process from continuing for thelifeof a fly rod. The same is true for furniture, of course. Wood continuesto "work" from one season to the next, and no finish can prevent theprocess. As to the extent that a given fly rod's action will be affected by the sameprocess, I really couldn't say, but I don't believe there's anything we cando ABOUT that , either in the short or the long run. So, I wonder howmuch one needs to worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and"cured." Jump in guys; I am really anxious to hear more thinking on Richard'squestion. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Humidity in non-varnished blank My first rod is glued up. I won't be able to varnish it for about one totwo weeks. I'm a bit hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oilsince I'm not sure whether the varathane I intend to use later will workwith the oil. I'm located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area(Montreal, Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw.So, should I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should Iignore the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior tovarnishing in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and forhowlong? Thanks in advance, Richard richard.nantel@videotron.ca(514) 485-2287 ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0 Hello all,Here's a = effects of humidity and resultant moisture content in preparing a = about preparation for the glue-up stages.We have been told by =various builders that it is very important to drive or draw out all =possible moisture from the strips before gluing (or, again, to do the = have surfaces as dry as possible for purposes of attaining the best bond = within =the fibers of a rod, and thus building a rod that will remain = will always equalize itself according to whatever the AMBIENT humidity = reduced as much as it can be by the usual, lengthy drying process, the = =moisture exists only BETWEEN the cells, and is what's called "free = surprisingly, not even our modern poly varnishes can prevent this = action will be affected by the same process, I really couldn't say, but =I don't believe there's anything we can do ABOUT that , either in the = worry about humidity once the cane is truly dried and = to hear more thinking on Richard's question.Cheers, Bill----------From: = blankDate: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:34 PMMy first rod is glued up. I =won't be able to varnish it for about one to two weeks. I'm a bit =hesitant to give it a couple of coats of tung oil since I'm not sure =whether the varathane I intend to use later will work with the oil. I'm =located in what is usually a cold, dry geographic area (Montreal, =Canada) but we're suddenly experiencing a humid January thaw. So, should=I be concerned about moisture re-entry into the blank? Should I ignore =the blank for now and give it another heat treament prior to varnishing =in a couple of weeks? If so, how high a temperature and for how = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE4796.3A8035E0-- from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Jan 24 13:02:38 1999 Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jan 24 13:15:27 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'jackdale@uswest.net'" Subject: RE: Art were just making fishing poles ----------From: Jack Dale[SMTP:jackdale@uswest.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Art If molded clay, welded iron, or chisled stone is art, Then why wouldsplit, planed, and glued Chinese grass not art? from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Jan 24 13:29:43 1999 Subject: Re: rodmaking as art ... You're an engineer. Try inventing a switch that will engage your brainbefore your mouth (or typing skills) can engage. Perhaps not all youropinions are worthy of being graven on stone tablets. Terence Ackland wrote: How the hell can you compare a few strips of cane to a Stradivarius?Even stripped to the basics there is no comparison.There is a little more to making music than trying to put a hole in afishes jaw.The value of a Strad is $10,000,000US, yes 10 million.This list is getting stupider and stupider. It might be an idea tovisit cane rods dealer andlet them decide whether we are producing works of art and not rely onself praise.Remember the old saying, "Self praise is no recommendation"I guess the bullsit is harmless enough as long as it does not carry oninto the " real world"Thre is nothing wrong with being a craftsman.T. Ackland Christian THALACKER wrote: Dear Rodmakers, Here is just a lowly rodmaking apprentice'sopinion ... As to Ralph's opinion on rodmaking as art, I heartilyagree ;-) When my rodbuilder/teacher, Hoshihara-sensei and Ienter his workshop ... there is a spiritual magictaking place, where all that matters is planinga strip with as much sincerity and thought towardsperfection as possible. I've been in a few artists' workshop, but never asan apprentice ... maybe I would feel a similar feelinghad I been mixing colors or painting the background As flyfishermen, we're luckly that we can use thesemasterpieces ... of course, a rod could be framed ...but I would much rather use my "stradivarius" on thewater than have it locked up in a vault, afraid that Imight loosen a ferrule or ding the reel seet. Some may say that even the finer rods are just bitsof bamboo stuck together with string. And to thatI'd say, "maybe, but then a stradivarius is justsome wood, glue and sheep guts" ...