strip of tape on either side of the station mark to compress the splines atthose points. Then, I measured each station using a micrometer instead ofmycaliper. Guess what? I'm consistently .010 oversized at all stations. So Ijust need to tighten up the forms .005 at every station to hit the rightdimension. With the oversize so consistent, I now suspect my depth gaugeorcalibration bar. Thanks to all who helped. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Darn those maesurements I finished planing the tip section of my second rod last night, a PHY Para15 (heavy tip). Since there's some controversy about the ability to get aprecise measurement of a spline using a regular straight-jawed caliper, Ididn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This is certainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). I have now assembled the plane strips using masking tape. The blank isn'tglued yet. I've marked the 5-inch stations on the blank and have takenmeasurements there across the flats of the assembled blanks. The goodnewsis that the sides are all within .001 of each other. The bad news is thatI'm consistently oversized everywhere on the blank. Here are themeasurements: PHY mine.078 .084.093 .100and so on to the butt....0225 .0325 So here are my questions:1. is it possible to get accurate readings on a blank that is simply tapedup. I'm trying to compress the splines with my fingers as hard as I canwhenmeasuring;2. the form settings for this rod are from PHY's actual form setting, not from a finished rod. So should I assume my measurements are correct asis?3. Should I close up the forms (for example, deduct .003 from the 0"station, etc) and try to hit the actual taper measurements? Since I haven't glued yet, I can easily take a few thousandths more off atthis point. Many thanks in advance, Richard from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Wed Mar 10 23:28:50 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA34442 for; Thu, 11 Mar 199905:28:40 GMT Subject: Adhesives Looking for source , in Western Canada of:Resorcinol (I like the color)URACAnybody have contact info on the above. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 11 01:18:34 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:18:02 +0000 "romakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book I got a surprise the other day...I saw a copy of Ray Gould's book in the"fishing" section at the local Barnes & Noble (Pruneyard Shopping Center inSan Jose if anyone local doesn't have it, yet). While I thought it was a good book, I don't see it as a "must buy" likeGarrison/Carmichael or Cattanach. I just hope that the Kirkfield book isworth all the trouble and wait...I have been trying to get a copy for twoyears (and just missed about 10 copies...even mint ones at $35!!! -- andTHAT is the most RECENT one that I missed!). George-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book Thanks to all who responded. I've only bought about $400 worth ofbooks in the past 2 years. Guess I'll add one more to the list!Harry from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Thu Mar 11 02:09:13 1999 (5.5.2232.9) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Adhesives Craig,unfortunately I can't help you with a source (I live in Australia)but I'm glad to know I'm not the only person in existence who likes thecolour of Resourcinol. Maybe we should start a support group! Good luck Mike R -----Original Message----- Subject: Adhesives Looking for source , in Western Canada of:Resorcinol (I like the color)URACAnybody have contact info on the above. from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Mar 11 06:42:55 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id VAA13461; Thu, 11Mar 1999 21:42:42+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id VAA13999;Thu, 11 Mar 199921:42:40 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: The Ultimate Bamboo Fly Rod Library Chris Wohlford wrote: Dear List,Just a note that I completed an update of "The Ultimate Bamboo Fly RodLibrary" with the Articles & Periodicals section receiving the bulk ofthe additions. As always, I would appreciate any corrections, revisionsor additions you might have. Hope you find it useful. The Ultimate Bamboo Fly Rod Library web site:http://www.artistree.com/SplitCaneLibrary/ --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Chris san, Thank you for a great work! Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from Canerods@aol.com Thu Mar 11 08:21:30 1999 Subject: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? What aboutthelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns from jkallo@midwest.net Thu Mar 11 08:33:26 1999 Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from plantboy@siu.edu Thu Mar 11 08:57:39 1999 Subject: South Bend 47-9 List, An individual came into the fly shop I work at and brought a SouthBend 47- 9to show me. He, like I, dont' know anything about the rod. So I waswondering if someone could shed some light on the rod. It was thegentleman's father's rod. He has sentimental attachment to it and justwants to know more about it.If I'm not mistaken this conversation has occurred before with South Bend.I believe the discussion turned toward rods which were made overseasafterWWII. Rod description: South Bend marked "47-9", three piece, with aluminum reel seat,aluminumferrules, thumb indented cork, and what looks to be a silk line designationHCH & C (If I remember right). Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated by thisgentleman. Thanks, Eric AdamsDept. of Plant BiologySouthern Illinois UniversityCarbonadale, IL 62901 from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Thu Mar 11 09:18:48 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:17:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) Dear Don Mabye this link can you give the contacts/infos:www.mouche.com/rccbfrhp.htm RegardsStefanhttp://members.tripod.com/Bamboorods/default.htm Canerods@aol.com schrieb: All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? Whatabout thelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns ---------------------------------------------------------------Sicherheits-Hinweis: Diese elektronische Post ist nur fèr den oder die Empf€nger, welchein der Adress-Zeile genannt werden bestimmt!Falls Sie nicht zu diesen gehåren, verståsst jede- unerlaubte Kopie,- unerlaubte Weiterleitung,- unerlaubte Kenntnisnahme, auch vermutlich oeffentlicher Inhalte,- und unerlaubte Verbreitung der enthaltenen Nachricht(en),sowie jeder anderer unautorisierte Gebrauch gegen geltendes Recht. Falls Sie nicht zu den in der Adresszeile genannten Empf€nger(n) gehåren,so bitten wir Sie um Kontaktnahme des Absenders und Zerstårungder betreffenden Daten von Ihrem Computer._________________________________________ Security-Note: The information transmitted is intended only for the personor entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidentialand/or privileged material.Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, ortaking of any action in reliance upon, this information bypersons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.If you received this in error, please contact the sender and deletethe material from any computer. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Mar 11 09:42:40 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "romakers@wugate.wustl.edu","'irish-george@worldnet.att.net'" Subject: RE: Ray Gould Book You should check out George Maurers (spelling?) book, very very good!!! ----------From: irish-george[SMTP:irish-george@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 11:20 PM Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book I got a surprise the other day...I saw a copy of Ray Gould's book in the"fishing" section at the local Barnes & Noble (Pruneyard Shopping CenterinSan Jose if anyone local doesn't have it, yet). While I thought it was a good book, I don't see it as a "must buy" likeGarrison/Carmichael or Cattanach. I just hope that the Kirkfield book isworth all the trouble and wait...I have been trying to get a copy for twoyears (and just missed about 10 copies...even mint ones at $35!!! -- andTHAT is the most RECENT one that I missed!). George-----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 4:43 PMSubject: Re: Ray Gould Book Thanks to all who responded. I've only bought about $400 worth ofbooks in the past 2 years. Guess I'll add one more to the list!Harry from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Mar 11 09:45:42 1999 ns2.vphos.net(8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with ESMTP id HAA31245 for; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Subject: Bamboo Rod Builder Meetings Some help please. To satisfy my own curiosity I'm compiling a list of meetings devotedsolelyto our craft with their locations and times. This includes Europe and othercountries.Please respond directly tobokstrom@axionet.comThanks,John from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Mar 11 10:23:49 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point that comes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When I foundaside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split strips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also producedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close to finalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively usingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. This willensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 11 14:02:02 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id JAA07728 for ;Fri, 12 Mar 199909:01:46 +1300 Subject: steel center rods There is a steel centered ( shock horror !!) Hardy 10 foot , two piece ,split cane rod going up for auction here tomorrow . It is in quitereasonable condition. I was contemplating acquiring it for my collection , in the category of "unusual rods" . Does anyone have any idea as to the value of such a rod ?.Actually I probably mean price rather then value as I am sure a number ofpeople have reasonably strong views on its value. Many thanks Iank from beaconplumb@earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 17:08:25 1999 PAA25537; "RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Dear John,I saw your notice on the rodmakers list, and I thought I would letyou know about the Roscoe Gathering. My name is Robert (Willis) Reid andmy wife is Kim Mellema and wehave been putting on the Roscoe Gathering for the last four years.(1995-1998) Our Gathering is always on the weekend after Labor Day andis located at the Catskill Fly Fishing Museum in Livingston Manor on theWillowemoc River in the Catskills Mtns of New York. This year (1999) thelocation is being moved to Pa and the date is October the 9th. You cancontact Tom Whittle for more info. He's running the show down there.They're having it down there to help raise money to house the VinceMarinaro collection. Tom's E-mail is: tom@cet-inc.com the ideas we bandy about started with you. Your name comes up often. I'venjoyed your many articles in the Planing form. Good luck with your list. I think that just as important as a listis recognition of the many builders like Tom Smithwick, Zimny, Bogart,Maurer, Jon Parker, George Barnes,Jacque Follweiler, Wayne Cattanach,Ron Barch, Gary Dabrowski....(the list goes on)..that come to so many ofthe Gatherings and put on such great demonstrations and give so much ofthemselves. These builders always made the Roscoe Gathering a specialplace to be. Kim and I have had a lot of fun and have met a lot ofwonderful people the last four years and we would like to thankeveryone. Kim and Willis from danielsiemens@home.com Thu Mar 11 17:18:02 1999 mail.rdc1.bc.wave.home.com(InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with SMTP Subject: resorcinol About a year ago the local Revy store in Burnaby. B.C. carried Resorcinol.Unfortunately they closed due to competition from Home Depot. Other Revystores may carry it, or be able to order it for you.Good Luck from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 11 17:27:13 1999 mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:26:41 +0000 ,"RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Willis:Good to see you getting on the list. Hope you and Kim are doing well andsure am hoping to see you at the PA Gathering in October. I'll show yousomegood fishing here in PA, while you are here and Kim will find someinteresting sights to photograph.Jack Follweiler from anglport@con2.com Thu Mar 11 18:09:41 1999 Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Joe,Try the method suggested in "The Lovely Reed", place a mirror at theendof your form. I think you'll find that you're canting your plane to thesurface of the forms. I was. It really plays hob with the angles.Art At 08:29 AM 3/11/99 -0600, Joseph S.Kallo wrote:Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The ideaofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mrj@aa.net Thu Mar 11 20:27:08 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:26:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Darn those measurements I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use a dialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you setthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is never perfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, it wouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get around this.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the groove usingadrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula for thisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusters steelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form at oneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I have put itin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of theform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this is mynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading. Now totell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether the readingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around you should beable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point that comes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When I foundaside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split strips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also producedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close to finalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively usingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. This willensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mrj@aa.net Thu Mar 11 20:36:01 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:35:55 -0800 Subject: RE: Darn those measurements this is going to sound really simplistic, but the problem with the angleswill probably just "go away" after about 5 rods. The idea of a mirror isreally a good one though. I had the same problem as you describe and Ifought with it trying all sorts of different things. I finally decided thatmy first 12 rods would be practice rods and not to worry about the angles.There was enough other stuff to worry about. The more planing you do, thebetter at keeping your angles you will be, It is that simple.PS. I am still building "practice rods", but the angles have taken care ofthemselves. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Mar 11 20:40:06 1999 ns2.vphos.net(8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with ESMTP id SAA13293 for; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Subject: Fw: Bamboo Rod Builder Meetings We're off to a good start. I believe there are meetings in Sweden andFrance, and hopefully in the British Isles also. I'd like to hear fromthem. In a week or so will post the results. John Some help please. To satisfy my own curiosity I'm compiling a list of meetings devotedsolelyto our craft with their locations and times. This includes Europe andothercountries.Please respond directly tobokstrom@axionet.comThanks,John from flyfishing.guide@miningco.com Thu Mar 11 21:33:33 1999 (HELO cr941387-a) Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:34:47 -0500 Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row before flipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:39:46 1999 Subject: Re: Payne node stagger I was thinking of doing up a 98 and I haven't figured out how Payne did hisnode staggering. Did he set them up in a spiral and then alternate them insome way?Not that I think it makes that much of a diff, but I just want to do it yaknow? Rob Hoffhines from tom@cet-inc.com Fri Mar 12 07:21:49 1999 0000 ,"RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Re: PA Rod Builders Gathering John and WillisOur first thought in moving the gathering to PA was to have it the sameweekend as a fund raising dinner for the Museum (Oct. 9). Knowing how thegroup likes informal evening activities and had become familiar with theweekend after Labor Day, we then decided to schedule the gathering forthatweekend (Sept. 11-12). The meeting will be at the Allenberry Resort InnandPlayhouse on the Yellow Breeches Creek. The facility is large enough thatweshouldn't have to turn anyone away. We're in the process of lining up aMotel, probably on the Letort Run, that offers the same price range andbenefits that everyone enjoyed at the Roscoe Motel. Another benefit tomoving to September, other than better fishing, is that the CumberlandValley Chapter of TU has invited the attendants to join them at theirannual"last supper" Saturday evening Sept. 11 at the Marinaro Meadow on theLetort. The "last supper" is a picnic traditionaly held to celebrate the endof trout season. (at one time trout season in PA ran out on Labor Day). More details should be available in the next few weeks. Hope I have helped to address any confusion about the date. Tom-----Original Message----- Subject: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Dear John,I saw your notice on the rodmakers list, and I thought I would letyou know about the Roscoe Gathering. My name is Robert (Willis) Reid andmy wife is Kim Mellema and wehave been putting on the Roscoe Gathering for the last four years.(1995-1998) Our Gathering is always on the weekend after Labor Day andis located at the Catskill Fly Fishing Museum in Livingston Manor on theWillowemoc River in the Catskills Mtns of New York. This year (1999) thelocation is being moved to Pa and the date is October the 9th. You cancontact Tom Whittle for more info. He's running the show down there.They're having it down there to help raise money to house the VinceMarinaro collection. Tom's E-mail is: tom@cet-inc.com the ideas we bandy about started with you. Your name comes up often. I'venjoyed your many articles in the Planing form. Good luck with your list. I think that just as important as a listis recognition of the many builders like Tom Smithwick, Zimny, Bogart,Maurer, Jon Parker, George Barnes,Jacque Follweiler, Wayne Cattanach,Ron Barch, Gary Dabrowski....(the list goes on)..that come to so many ofthe Gatherings and put on such great demonstrations and give so much ofthemselves. These builders always made the Roscoe Gathering a specialplace to be. Kim and I have had a lot of fun and have met a lot ofwonderful people the last four years and we would like to thankeveryone. Kim and Willis from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Fri Mar 12 08:17:56 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3E25;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:17:23 +0100 Subject: Re: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) Canerods@aol.com wrote: All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? Whatabout thelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns I'd certainly no forget my rods. It depends on wherabouts you're going. Theinteresting places to go, if you want some serious flyfishing, are theArdennes.The part close to the German border - the eastern regions. Luxemburg isquitenear and also worth a visit. Rens Oosthoek (Holland) from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Mar 12 08:28:58 1999 Subject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Mar 12 08:52:12 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: RE: George Gehrke what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke andhas probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Mar 12 10:05:21 1999 08:10:37 -0800 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn't verynice, but I guessthat is the way he opporates. Check out his web page if you can. Can'tremeber the address,but you should be able to find it under REC Outdoors. I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu -----Original Message----- Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row before flipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from anglport@con2.com Fri Mar 12 10:13:33 1999 "Ian H. Scott" ,"'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: RE: George Gehrke Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,>> > Certain aspects of the process lend themselves toproduction techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from tomchandler@apexweb.com Fri Mar 12 10:28:58 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AF3481017C; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:22:12 -0500 Subject: Re: George Gehrke Robert Clarke wrote: I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu I'd have to agree -- George's hot air would probably be amusing if hewasn'talways turning around and nailing someone to the wall, usually becauseGeorge doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Just to keep all George's rants in perspective, here's an excerpt from oneof his posts from early in 1998. I wonder what he means about "a lifetimeof actual bamboo experience..." 8-) ------------------------------------ Below is George on 1/20/98Regardless of this highly useful information, I would like to mentionthat there isn't a bamboo fly rod today that can't be built for lessthan $100 dollars in materials and workmanship. The rest of theretail prices is blue sky, like it or not. If the truth be known,the amount of materials found in a bamboo will be around $50! Itdepends upon volume and/or production and equipment available. I willsay this. In my mind and from a life time of actual bambooexperience, there isn't a bamboo fly rod made today that can bejustified to retail over $250 - $300 like it or not and it doesn'tmatter IF your name is Orvis or Mr. One @ A Time Rod Company. But bluesky sells and a shine on a rod is nice to behold . . . but we needsome reality in this field that is long over due.------------------------------------- Above is George on 1/20/98 Today we're at $333 for a one-tip rod and climbing, and I think George isjust starting to realize that those nodes don't straighten themselves,thosestrips don't glue themselves, the cork doesn't shape itself, the guidesdon't wrap themselves... Take care, TC -----Original Message-----From: Ian H. Scott [SMTP:flyfishing.guide@miningco.com]Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row beforeflipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Mar 12 11:25:42 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id MAA29557; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:14:56 -0500 "rclarke@eou.edu" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke Well some of us have actually talked with George(several hours overseveralconversations) - he is dead serious in the attempt at his dream - He hasbought all theequipment of a California maker - power mill included. As of last night hewas actuallystarting to mill cane - I haven't heard the results. He is using the best ofmaterials so hisactual costs with taxes will be close to $140 - that leaves $160 or$190(he claims he didn'tknow about the excise tax) for the labor and profits - I suspect thatsubsidies will beneeded to allow him to pay his help minimum wages.He is supposed to spend a week with me in Grayrock in late may -some of you areaware of what that is. As I posted to the newsgroup - win or lose he isdocumenting hisadventure to the world of Fly Fishing. The majority of the posts to thegroup are either byhim or focused at him. It's His DreamWayne PS. - John B you could add Grayrock to the gatherings - the official datesare June 56 & 26 -I suspect from the responses that it may start as early as the Troutopener in late Aprilthis year. Gee how many can the Clubhouse sleep!! from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Mar 12 11:55:48 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I wonder how many helpers he has? Maybe he figures his labor will befreebut I doubt if anyone else will work for free. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Wayne Cattanach [SMTP:cattanac@wmis.net]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:15 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke Well some of us have actually talked with George(several hours overseveral conversations) - he is dead serious in the attempt at his dream -He has bought all the equipment of a California maker - power millincluded. As of last night he was actually starting to mill cane - Ihaven't heard the results. He is using the best of materials so his actualcosts with taxes will be close to $140 - that leaves $160 or $190(heclaims he didn't know about the excise tax) for the labor and profits - Isuspect that subsidies will be needed to allow him to pay his helpminimumwages.He is supposed to spend a week with me in Grayrock in late may -some of you are aware of what that is. As I posted to the newsgroup -winor lose he is documenting his adventure to the world of Fly Fishing. Themajority of the posts to the group are either by him or focused at him. It's His DreamWayne PS. - John B you could add Grayrock to the gatherings - the official datesare June 56 & 26 - I suspect from the responses that it may start asearlyas the Trout opener in late April this year. Gee how many can theClubhouse sleep!! from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Mar 12 12:25:59 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke -----Original Message-----From: Wayne Cattanach [SMTP:cattanac@wmis.net]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:15 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke It's His DreamWayne Yeah well sometimes I dream about waking up next to a Leonard/Bogdancombobut that's not gonna happen either! . (well not without a seriousinfusion of funds earmarked for the mortgage anyway). I guess anything ispossible, right? Folks even jump out of perfectly working airplanes! Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from CALucker@aol.com Fri Mar 12 12:34:09 1999 Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order 1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brass capcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and a prettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of my millwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them to size, asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will make anymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Mar 12 12:46:34 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I'd guess that he's buying everything at today's prices though. Do youbelieve that the bamboo rod market will bear $300 rods? Do you thinkthere's enough buyers out there for him to ever turn a profit? Brian -----Original Message-----From: CALucker@aol.com [SMTP:CALucker@aol.com]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: market will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brasscapcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and aprettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of mymillwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them to size,asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will make anymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 12 15:04:13 1999 ext.prodigy.net QAA434508;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:02:42 -0500 "Ian H. Scott" ,"'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: Re: George Gehrke =_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460 Gehrke claims there is no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing morethan $300. So, let's see. He says that $50 per rod will be more thanadequate for all necessary materials. That would be the cost of the culmitself, the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish,cork reel seat, hardware, carrying tube and bag. He says $50.00 shouldcover ALL THAT, even in the highest quality rod. That's interesting. So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and amortization ofall necessary shop equipment. I don't know what Gehrke would allow foroverhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowed to include this atall as part of the cost of the rod). But even at $250 per rod for ourlabor, we would need to build that "highest quality" rod in 25 hours(start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. I'm certain thatnobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod! Now, surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as toexpectto be earning more than $10 an hour, would you? I mean, for goodnesssake! If, in a year's time, you worked 40 hours per week at the rate of$10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around $20,000! Certainly,in this day and age, that would be a great plenty to raise a family, paythe mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, food, clothes, automobiles, and send the kids to college. George Gehrke must be a genius! I wish I had figured all this out before,because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been gouging allthose poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my "blue-sky," exorbitantprices. I am going to have to get really serious, too, about not wastingso much of my time in the building of a rod. Here, I have been fartingaround, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 hours on a rod. What have I beenthinking!! Cheers, Bill----------From: Art Port ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George GehrkeDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:13 AM Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 isa sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beatdown the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like arod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walkedinto Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas oraloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at achilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460 Gehrke claims there is no = the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish, cork = interesting.So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, = know what Gehrke would allow for overhead and equipment (maybe we =shouldn't be allowed to include this at all as part of the cost of the = nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod!Now, surely =all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to expect to be = = at the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around = great plenty to raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health = figured all this out before, because I feel just terrible now to =think that I have been gouging all those poor, unsuspecting customers of = farting around, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 hours on a rod. = built = = = expensive = = see = Which = = = = they = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460-- from stpete@netten.net Fri Mar 12 15:09:25 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:24 -0600 Subject: Re: George Gehrke Having built a grand total of five rods, I'd say that Mr. Gehrke isdoing the rodmaking community a service. You and I both know that hewill never be able to sustain a decent rod production of even tolerablecane rods for any length of time. Let the buyer beware. With a fewmore cane rods out on the market there is bound to be a reaction. If hebuilds a decent rod, there will be new appreciation for cane in a fewmore fishermen. If the rods are crap, the market will have a betterunderstanding of what it takes/costs to put a nice rod on the shelf. As Tom Chandler noted, those nodes won't straighten themselves and thosesplines won't glue themselves. You go George. Good luck, you'll need it. Rick C. Thoman, Brian wrote: I'd guess that he's buying everything at today's prices though. Do youbelieve that the bamboo rod market will bear $300 rods? Do you thinkthere's enough buyers out there for him to ever turn a profit? Brian -----Original Message-----From: CALucker@aol.com [SMTP:CALucker@aol.com]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: market will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brasscapcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and aprettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of mymillwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them tosize,asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will makeanymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from jfoster@gte.net Fri Mar 12 15:18:08 1999 Subject: bill arend I have added a new article to the home page..Lori Lohman is selling allof her father ( who recently passed away) and Bill Arend"s rod makingequipment..read..shop.i have included her most recent letter.. jerry Afternoon gentlemen, Joe Arguello visited this morning and examined the machines and othermaterials. He helped me measure the cane cutting/milling machine. This machine is 9' by 17" wide on a cast iron lathe bed. It is 37" high with the wheel and other superstructure removed. A possible 18" can beremoved if the base legs separate. Joe also thinks it weighs a ton. He will be happy to tell you all about it and the hydraulic straighteningpress and other machinery, materials, what all. Joe asked for the instructions attached to the three major machines.I'msending them to all of you as it might be useful. Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you all. Lori Machine instructions: HYDRAULIC STRAIGHTENING PRESS INSTRUCTIONSBe certain platens are closed, but free for sticks, at bothends before loading and unloading. Shut off at 220· Fand hold 25 psi for 20 minutes of until 250· or max reached.(Bleed valve on #1 Piston leaks and needs replacing.) INSTRUCTIONS FOR MILLING MACHINE1. Select form to use on machine2. Set form adjusting pads according to strip calculations3. Adjust tension on cork roller4. Move belt to make sure cutter is not hitting anything5. Turn on power box, machine and vent6. Wind table all the way to the right7. Put strip under hold down8. Clamp at left end and apply light tension once clamphas engaged strip firmly9. Set first guide down before trial or cut10. Turn wheel to left for cut11. Lift clamp and remove piece GLUING MACHINE INSTRUCTIONS1. Apply Glue2. Put on wiper assys3. Wrap 1*" with thread4. Install and tie on finger trap5. Hook drawstring to finger trap6. Draw or push cane through until fingertrap is all inside collett7. Align cane in vise jaws and hook up spring8. Install wiper assy on vise9. Start wrap by hand for 6 or 8 turns10. Proceed with power wrap from jfoster@gte.net Fri Mar 12 15:20:28 1999 Subject: [Fwd: A puzzle] boundary="------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC mac-creator="4D4F5353" --------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC 23:56:02 EST Subject: A puzzle Hi Jerry, Tried to check out your page earlier and guess you were working on it,but one can never tell with aol. I've been sorting out the stacks andstacks of papers that piled up during the shop inventory and came acrosssomething that might provide a puzzle for your listserve members. A friend of my father's had asked him to research an old rod inherited from his uncle. This uncle would now be over 100 if alive and basicallynever left the eastern plains of Colorado. Professor Jenkins providedthe following description. The question is, does anyone out there knowanything at all about a rod that meets this description? This is justanswering the curiousity of a good fellow. Bamboo Casting Rod6' 10" 3 piece w/extra tipno maker idgrip wound with cordtops stirrup typeguides are 3 loop coil typeCase (the really unique thing):* wood rod with groove to hold sections*looks a little like wide umbrella spokes Not being an aficionado, I've never seen anything like it. If this fits part of your mission it would be a good deed. Thanks, Lori ___________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno athttp://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654- JUNO [654-5866] --------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 12 15:30:31 1999 ext.prodigy.net QAA336550;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:30:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements =_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0 Martin, You're absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge.My strips are off exactly this same .004 throughout their length. Manyyears ago, I too thought maybe the tip pointer needed to be "honed in" toa true 60 degrees, but my local machine shop said there was no problem inthis regard. The problem is that, while the point of the tip "zeros-out" the micrometerdial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depth at thecenter of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all. The tip itself, which started you out at "zero," is now dangling downBETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but ahypothetical depth. The downward fall of the pointer has been stopped, not by its tip, but bythe angled SIDES of the pointer. But if that tip was not just as sharplypointed as the perfect razor-edge of the groove's hypothetical bottom, youwill not actually have begun your depth measurement from the perfect"zero"you THOUGHT you were starting at. There's really no help for this. The solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfectpoint probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn howmuch your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings,andjust "build-in" that difference when you set your forms. This worksperfectly for me, and my results come out right on the money! Cheers, Bill----------From: Martin Jensen rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Darn those measurementsDate: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:26 PM I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use a dialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you setthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is neverperfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, itwouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get aroundthis.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the groove usingadrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula for thisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusters steelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form atoneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I have putitin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of theform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this is mynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading. Nowtotell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether thereadingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around you shouldbeable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point thatcomes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flippingthespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When Ifound aside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over.Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split stripsina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This alsoproducedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close tofinalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensivelyusingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planingandfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. Thiswillensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:29 AM Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very preciselyandplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and thengoback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--mostofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passesateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The ideaofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale---- --=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0 Martin,You're =absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge. = = micrometer dial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the =depth at the center of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that = =of the groove, measuring nothing but a hypothetical depth. = was not just as sharply pointed as the perfect razor-edge of the =groove's hypothetical bottom, you will not actually have begun your = = solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfect point =probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn how much =your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings, and = = = = to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you = setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get around = anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form at = tell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether the = = spline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the = rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also = Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively using = nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing = know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad = seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Mar 12 16:48:38 1999 mrj@aa.net,richard.nantel@videotron.ca, jkallo@midwest.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Darn those measurements I don't know what I am doing right here but when I zero my dial indicatoron aflat surface and then set my forms to the exact measurement that is whatI amgetting. Maybe I just am lucky here?Bret from Finanplanr@aol.com Fri Mar 12 17:30:28 1999 Subject: *Fine Bamboo Fly Rod* has ARRIVED!!! Dear Folks, Please be advised that the Second Edition of *The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod*has nowbeen published and I have received shipment today! That means,unfortunately,that the special Pre-Publication Offer is no longer in effect. All those of you who have already ordered copies, please be advised, yourcopies will be packaged this weekend and shipped on Monday. Look foryourcopies next week!! Thank you all for your interest! Best wishes,Stuart Kirkfield from mrj@aa.net Fri Mar 12 17:34:13 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:34:06 -0800 ,,, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements there are a lot of factors involved that would allow you to still beplaning to the measurement that you want, but that doesn't change mystatement that the tip of the indicator is actually a rounded blunt end. Ofcourse when I say "rounded blunt end" I am exaggerating a lot, but(rememberwe are only talking a couple or a few thousands at the most) no way can Ibelieve that the tip of the indicator comes to as fine of a point edge asthe edge of the bamboo when cut to the sixty degree (or any degree forthatmatter) angle. If I can find the formula that I mentioned I will post it andyou can give it a try yourself. -----Original Message----- Grhghlndr@aol.com mrj@aa.net;richard.nantel@videotron.ca; jkallo@midwest.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurements I don't know what I am doing right here but when I zero my dial indicatoronaflat surface and then set my forms to the exact measurement that is whatIamgetting. Maybe I just am lucky here?Bret from mrj@aa.net Fri Mar 12 17:38:21 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:38:08 -0800 , , Subject: RE: Darn those measurements boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980 you have explained it much better than I did. A while ago I thought offiling the tip off like maybe 15 thousands of so. that way if I accidentally"pinged" the surface by letting the pointer slip from my finger, it wouldnot dull the end since there would be no real sharp end to dull. I of coursewould then have to calibrate the measurement but once I did that thecalibration would most likely be pretty stable.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu HARMSSent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:29 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurements Martin, You're absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depthgauge. My strips are off exactly this same .004 throughout their length.Many years ago, I too thought maybe the tip pointer needed to be "honed in"to a true 60 degrees, but my local machine shop said there was no probleminthis regard. The problem is that, while the point of the tip "zeros-out" themicrometer dial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depthatthe center of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all.The tip itself, which started you out at "zero," is now dangling downBETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but ahypothetical depth. The downward fall of the pointer has been stopped, not by its tip, but pointed as the perfect razor-edge of the groove's hypothetical bottom, youwill not actually have begun your depth measurement from the perfect"zero"you THOUGHT you were starting at. There's really no help for this. The solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfectpoint probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn howmuch your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings,andjust "build-in" that difference when you set your forms. This worksperfectly for me, and my results come out right on the money! Cheers, Bill----------From: Martin Jensen rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Darn those measurementsDate: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:26 PM I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use adialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if yousetthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is neverperfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, itwouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get aroundthis.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the grooveusing adrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula forthisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusterssteelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form atoneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I haveput itin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface oftheform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this ismynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading.Now totell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether thereadingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around youshould beable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu NantelSent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point thatcomes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side beforeflipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When Ifound aside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over.Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing withuntaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think Iachievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-splitstrips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This alsoproducedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close tofinalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the onewith the30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated withtheenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved toroughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensivelyusing myfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to finalplaning andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is tomake alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. Thiswillensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope itwasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu S.KalloSent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:29 AM Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very preciselyandplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side andthen goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--mostofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are.003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number ofpasses ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The not stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds prettynice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980 have explained it much better than I did. A while ago I thought of = "pinged" the surface by letting the pointer slip from my = would not dull the end since there would be no real sharp end to dull. I = course would then have to calibrate the measurement but once I did that = calibration would most likely be pretty stable. WILLIAM = HARMSSent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:29 measurements absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge. = when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depth at the = the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all. = down BETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but= stopped, not by its tip, but by the angled SIDES of the pointer. = if that tip was not just as sharply pointed as the perfect = groove's hypothetical bottom, you will not actually have begun your = you = not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfect point = be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn how much your planed = = than a few thousands to create the difference that you are = about. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get = there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of = form and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this = = short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. = 1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split = = owner- just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad = = =Carbondale ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980-- from brewer@teleport.com Fri Mar 12 18:07:24 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAALOfU5_; Fri Mar 12 16:07:091999 Subject: Munro Forms I am interested in comments (or recommendations?) regarding the planingforms for six-sided rods and the aluminum binder offered by the Munro RodCompany. Please feel free to reply off the list. Thanks. - - - - Randy Brewerhttp://www.teleport.com/~brewerbrewer@teleport.com from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 12 23:03:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:03:24 +0000 "Ian H. Scott" , Subject: Re: George Gehrke He is actually charging a PREMIUM for the first 50 rods he builds! (Thefirst he has EVER built!) George Bourke-----Original Message----- H.Scott ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us' Subject: RE: George Gehrke Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like arod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at achilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 12 23:11:08 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:10:33 +0000 ,"Ian H. Scott" , Subject: Re: George Gehrke boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480 I'll bet that he makes a small fortune (out of a much larger one). George Bourke-----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com ; Ian H. =Scott ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us' = Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:11 PMSubject: Re: George Gehrke Gehrke claims there is no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing =more than $300. So, let's see. He says that $50 per rod will be more =than adequate for all necessary materials. That would be the cost of =the culm itself, the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping =thread, varnish, cork reel seat, hardware, carrying tube and bag. He =says $50.00 should cover ALL THAT, even in the highest quality rod. =That's interesting. So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and =amortization of all necessary shop equipment. I don't know what Gehrke =would allow for overhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowedto =include this at all as part of the cost of the rod). But even at $250 =per rod for our labor, we would need to build that "highest quality" =rod in 25 hours (start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. =I'm certain that nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod! Now, surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to =expect to be earning more than $10 an hour, would you? I mean, for =goodness sake! If, in a year's time, you worked 40 hours per week at =the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around =$20,000! Certainly, in this day and age, that would be a great plenty =to raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, =food, clothes, automobiles, and send the kids to college. George Gehrke must be a genius! I wish I had figured all this out =before, because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been =gouging all those poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my ="blue-sky," exorbitant prices. I am going to have to get really =serious, too, about not wasting so much of my time in the building of a =rod. Here, I have been farting around, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 =hours on a rod. What have I been thinking!! Cheers, Bill----------From: Art Port ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George GehrkeDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:13 AM Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud =that he'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the ="noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that =he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a = about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The = Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to = techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality = Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders = and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the same Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be = rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts = the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the = Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble = sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up = this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate = large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact = old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a = them turn their noses down to the limitations that using a If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will = the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of a You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix = high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved = A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear = especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most = realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you = Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of =gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the =currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a =chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates = Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480 I'll bet that he makes a small = much larger one). George Bourke -----Original = <Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.c= Ian H. Scott <flyfishing.guide@miningco.c= 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= GehrkeGehrke= no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing more than $300. = stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish, cork = that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and amortization = = overhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowed to include = labor, we would need to build that "highest quality" = 25 hours (start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. = certain that nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a = surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to = the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around = raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, = because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been = all those poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my = serious, too, about not wasting so much of my time in the building = = = = = = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480-- from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 01:35:23 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A5AE213800FA; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:37:18 MST Subject: Bastard Rods Guys;Read George's website on his Bastard rods. This is some scary s**t, atleast to me. I can't continue to build rods unless I sell them and this SOBis about to put me out of business. There goes my plans to suppliment Soc.Sec. with flyrods when I am too old to swing a hammer any more.John from Turbotrk@aol.com Sat Mar 13 01:37:34 1999 jkallo@midwest.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Darn those measurements I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Mar 13 07:49:43 1999 ext.prodigy.net IAA65740;Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:49:34 -0500 , Subject: Re: Darn those measurements =_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940 Oh, it might be possible to perfect some sort of depth gauge so that whenthe pointer tip establishes "zero" on a flat surface, the tapered sides ofthe pointer will establish a correspondingly precise measurement when dropped intothegroove. But why worry about it? You only need to establish how yourparticular gauge and forms are behaving relative to one another, and then"crank in" whatever corrective factor is necessary. Surely, this is amongthe least of our worries. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Turbotrk@aol.com jkallo@midwest.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurementsDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:35 PM I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will giveyouabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesomeveryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940 Oh, it might be possible to =perfect some sort of depth gauge so that when the pointer tip = of the pointer will establish a correspondingly precise measurement = only need to establish how your particular gauge and forms are = =mrj@aa.net;richard.nantel@videotron.ca; jkallo@midwest.net;= =that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give = tired of borrowing stuff ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940-- from destinycon@mindspring.com Sat Mar 13 07:50:21 1999 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements At 02:35 AM 3/13/99 EST, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote:I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesomeveryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff Stuart,All it takes is a drill bit and reamer and you to can make a gauge. Youdon't need a machine shop or any of the "NASA" guys, just about 15minutesof your time will do it.Regards,Gary H. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Mar 13 07:59:23 1999 "'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web page ifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Mar 13 08:10:17 1999 Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:09:36 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke I reckon old George aught to run for president, he'll cut the deficet,reduce big gov and create 100% employment, of course you'll all beworking Tony On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Tom Chandler, Copywriter wrote: Robert Clarke wrote: I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu I'd have to agree -- George's hot air would probably be amusing if hewasn'talways turning around and nailing someone to the wall, usually becauseGeorge doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Just to keep all George's rants in perspective, here's an excerpt from oneof his posts from early in 1998. I wonder what he means about "a lifetimeof actual bamboo experience..." 8-) ------------------------------------ Below is George on 1/20/98Regardless of this highly useful information, I would like to mentionthat there isn't a bamboo fly rod today that can't be built for lessthan $100 dollars in materials and workmanship. The rest of theretail prices is blue sky, like it or not. If the truth be known,the amount of materials found in a bamboo will be around $50! Itdepends upon volume and/or production and equipment available. I willsay this. In my mind and from a life time of actual bambooexperience, there isn't a bamboo fly rod made today that can bejustified to retail over $250 - $300 like it or not and it doesn'tmatter IF your name is Orvis or Mr. One @ A Time Rod Company. But bluesky sells and a shine on a rod is nice to behold . . . but we needsome reality in this field that is long over due.------------------------------------- Above is George on 1/20/98 Today we're at $333 for a one-tip rod and climbing, and I think George isjust starting to realize that those nodes don't straighten themselves,thosestrips don't glue themselves, the cork doesn't shape itself, the guidesdon't wrap themselves... Take care, TC -----Original Message-----From: Ian H. Scott [SMTP:flyfishing.guide@miningco.com]Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row beforeflipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Mar 13 08:36:01 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A82126E006E; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:37:21 EST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realize thevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again, forgettingthemotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fits offerrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45 hourrod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant is howling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the$300 to $330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. channer wrote: Guys;Read George's website on his Bastard rods. This is some scary s**t, atleast to me. I can't continue to build rods unless I sell them and this SOBis about to put me out of business. There goes my plans to supplimentSoc.Sec. with flyrods when I am too old to swing a hammer any more.John from freaner@gte.net Sat Mar 13 08:41:21 1999 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements At 2:35 AM -0500 3/13/99, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote about Re: Darn thosemeasurementsI still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Stuart, but you've actually got thewrong agency. The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)isthe proper group for determining accurate measurements down topicometersand nano-arc-seconds . You can access their web site at http://www.nist.gov/ No guarantees,but you might be able to interest someone there in the problem; and getsome suggestions for greater accuracy... Regards,Claude Claude FreanerLake Ridge, VA http://home1.gte.net/freaner/ from tball@mail.portup.com Sat Mar 13 10:03:14 1999 Subject: Depth Guage Setting Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:22 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AFCA1FFA0132; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:18:18 MST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realize thevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fits offerrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45 hourrod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant is howling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to $330,or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder. Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy, butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyone buymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tip anyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, I supposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components i canget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebody saidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Mar 13 15:32:13 1999 Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:52:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Thanks Tom,I believe this is how Jon Lintvet's calibration gauge is supposed towork. I, personally had never quite figured it out. Am I right Jon?Does this mean that when placed in the .1875" hole, the gauge shouldread .1623806? (rounded a little)One difficulty I have with this method is that it isn't hard to cant theplunger of the gauge, binding it slightly; thus changing the reading. Imust be doing something wrong.Harry Tom Ball wrote: Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Mar 13 17:15:54 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A1F8B800E2; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:17:12 EST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods John,See below: channer wrote: Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, That is his intent. or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. The Montagues, H-Is, and South Bends are still out there, still the onlycane rodthat most people have seen. He will have to really botch his taper to lookworsethan them. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy, butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. Then don't be an unknown. Have you cast a Mike Clark "Gierach" rod? It isdelightful. Bob Taylor produces superb rods, with distinctive tapers. Therearereasons why these people are known, and it isn't the Kane Klassicsmarketingapproach; they make great rods. If you make great rods with uniquecharacteristicsyou'll have customers. I think that the known makers sellrods to people that want that name on their rod. Some, but not all. I've been known to trade a Leonard for a Montague. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, Perhaps because you make a better rod (I don't know this, but I hope it) ora rodsuited for a particular application (like Carlos's 4' rods, or Bogart'sYellowRose, or Burnside's Bass rods). Do you think Geo will be able to affordmanydifferent models? How about a Leonard Fairy Catskill, let's see hismachine bindthe tip on that. Sit back and enjoy the ride, John. He is no more a threat than you are athreat toJon Parker, Taylor, etc.; yet all the "full-time" rodmakers fear the"hobbyists",just as you fear Geo. And you're both wrong, you'all can complement oneanother.Best regards,Reed from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 18:10:53 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AEFB23D700FA; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:12:43 MST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods At 06:14 PM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,See below: channer wrote: Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, That is his intent. or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. The Montagues, H-Is, and South Bends are still out there, still the onlycane rodthat most people have seen. He will have to really botch his taper to lookworsethan them. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. Then don't be an unknown. Have you cast a Mike Clark "Gierach" rod? It isdelightful. Bob Taylor produces superb rods, with distinctive tapers.There arereasons why these people are known, and it isn't the Kane Klassicsmarketingapproach; they make great rods. If you make great rods with uniquecharacteristicsyou'll have customers. I think that the known makers sellrods to people that want that name on their rod. Some, but not all. I've been known to trade a Leonard for a Montague. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, Perhaps because you make a better rod (I don't know this, but I hope it)or a rodsuited for a particular application (like Carlos's 4' rods, or Bogart'sYellowRose, or Burnside's Bass rods). Do you think Geo will be able to affordmanydifferent models? How about a Leonard Fairy Catskill, let's see hismachine bindthe tip on that. Sit back and enjoy the ride, John. He is no more a threat than you are athreat toJon Parker, Taylor, etc.; yet all the "full-time" rodmakers fear the"hobbyists",just as you fear Geo. And you're both wrong, you'all can complement oneanother.Best regards,Reed Reed;I suppose you are probably right. It is easy to panic when you don't sellmany rods as it is and someone comes along that looks to produce inquantity at a lower price. I hope my rods are better, also, if they're notI better quit. I never figured I was much of a threat to anyone, I can'tafford the advertizing it would take, or turn out the quantity to spreadaround and make myself known. My only market is this area and the peoplethat pass thru and see one of my rods in a fly shop here. Still and all,when i spend 40 hours building a rod and around $200.00 on materials andcomponents, i don't appreciate someone telling the world that it is allblue sky. John from anglport@con2.com Sat Mar 13 18:11:46 1999 ,,, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements All,I posted this a long while ago, but it looks like some could make useofit again. I mention the "long ago" not to do anything but explain why theset-up may be a bit murky at this time. The formula will work, but if youhave a Starrett point, (and anyone WITH a Starrett can chime in here), itseems that if you set the indicator to .004 you'll be dead on for the"shoulder" measurements (They seem to be rounded to a point which takesoff.004 from the ACTUAL point).Art (Martin, I think you're off the hook for the formula.) The problem is that when you set the indicator to zero you are usingtheACTUAL point and when you measure the depth you are using a "virtual"point(there's that computer term again).If the point has been dinged (or rounded whenTHEY tell you the depth of the groove there will be a discrepancy betweenthe actual depth and the virtual depth (the indicator thinks the surface isfarther away than it really is). I guess it would be fair to say that yourdepth reading will be accurate but your initial zeroing will have been offso that the difference will be computed incorrectly.The use of thecalibrator sets your zero using the shoulders of the point (what you'reactually measuring the vee with) so that there is no possibility of thezeroing and the measuring being out of synch with each other.This willinvolve seeing (one-half) the tip as a 30-60-90 deg triangle and using trigto find what the indicator "THINKS" is the point's position. I'm going totry to show a diagram here but I don't have much hope for it. top is 1/2 the hole's width (1/16" in previous example)-------------| / 60 deg from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Mar 13 18:59:51 1999 ext.prodigy.net TAA372238;Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:59:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Bastard Rods =_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620 Aw, come on, guys. You can't be serious in these worries over Gehrke! He's just a blowhard. If you're any kind of maker at all, the quality of yourproduct will be MILES beyond anything George might crank out for $330 a pop. Even ifheDOES manage to produce something, how could it possibly compare inqualityto what we are presently making? We all know what quality costs. Come on! This is just STUPID! Why in the world should anyone worryaboutGehrke's claims? The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod willlook like it. Cheers, Bill ----------From: channer Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service,atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from theloftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spendlesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers,thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do istakethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, IsupposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebody saidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620 Aw, come on, guys. quality of your product will be MILES beyond anything George might = =produce something, how could it possibly compare in quality to what we = on another planet, and a $330 rod will look like it.Cheers, = = produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. = won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towards = people like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makers = =a bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, I = John ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620-- from anglport@con2.com Sat Mar 13 19:34:33 1999 Subject: Re: Bastard Rods Bill,I can't cite the quote, but some famous economist said: "Bad moneydrivesout good!" Adam Smith?Hope to h**l I'm wrong....Art At 07:58 PM 3/13/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:He's just the quality of your product will We all know what quality costs. The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod will look like it. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting theThiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway) anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, Isuppose Icould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebodysaidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sat Mar 13 20:58:41 1999 "'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'" ,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke His website is http://gink.com/bastardflyrodco.htm -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web page ifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sat Mar 13 21:04:03 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I think we've beaten this one but here's some quotes from his page. The suggested retail of Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will have a suggestedretailprice of $500 through dealers, if we go that route. Once we commit,depending upon market demand to dealers, we will not be allowed to sellBastards for less. However; if we don't go that route, The retail price willremain around $330 to $400.then what all my friends here are going to getthem for with their order's of intent of only $330. I still think we can doit as I originally said . . . but it depends upon this excellent ProductionMILL Equipment we are getting. AGAIN - AFTER we begin production, the price of $330 will not beguaranteed.So, if you've been wondering about putting in your ORDER OF INTENT - DO ITNOW! I couldn't be more fair about this. BASTARDS WILL CAST LIKE THE FINEST FLY ROD IN THE WORLD _ orderyours now. Today, the last piece and major item of equipment has been located. A'veryspecial' and 'rare' PRODUCTION LINE MILLING TAPERING MACHINE has beenpurchased by the Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company.The Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company has just ordered an Al BellingerBeveler from Russ Gooding. This is a major laber saving device that puts the 60degree angle on the underside of the enamel surface of each strip ofbamboo.It has been a very intense day. We also have the planing forms undermanufacture and those will cost us around $250 dollars each, more orless.They will have 5 inch centers and all Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will comewitha swelled butt section. This means power and excellence throughout. What we are doing is constructing a fly rod that will be competitive withthe finest fly rods in the world today. I think we get the picture... Brian -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might