strip of tape on either side of the station mark to compress the splines atthose points. Then, I measured each station using a micrometer instead ofmycaliper. Guess what? I'm consistently .010 oversized at all stations. So Ijust need to tighten up the forms .005 at every station to hit the rightdimension. With the oversize so consistent, I now suspect my depth gaugeorcalibration bar. Thanks to all who helped. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Darn those maesurements I finished planing the tip section of my second rod last night, a PHY Para15 (heavy tip). Since there's some controversy about the ability to get aprecise measurement of a spline using a regular straight-jawed caliper, Ididn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This is certainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). I have now assembled the plane strips using masking tape. The blank isn'tglued yet. I've marked the 5-inch stations on the blank and have takenmeasurements there across the flats of the assembled blanks. The goodnewsis that the sides are all within .001 of each other. The bad news is thatI'm consistently oversized everywhere on the blank. Here are themeasurements: PHY mine.078 .084.093 .100and so on to the butt....0225 .0325 So here are my questions:1. is it possible to get accurate readings on a blank that is simply tapedup. I'm trying to compress the splines with my fingers as hard as I canwhenmeasuring;2. the form settings for this rod are from PHY's actual form setting, not from a finished rod. So should I assume my measurements are correct asis?3. Should I close up the forms (for example, deduct .003 from the 0"station, etc) and try to hit the actual taper measurements? Since I haven't glued yet, I can easily take a few thousandths more off atthis point. Many thanks in advance, Richard from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Wed Mar 10 23:28:50 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA34442 for; Thu, 11 Mar 199905:28:40 GMT Subject: Adhesives Looking for source , in Western Canada of:Resorcinol (I like the color)URACAnybody have contact info on the above. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 11 01:18:34 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:18:02 +0000 "romakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book I got a surprise the other day...I saw a copy of Ray Gould's book in the"fishing" section at the local Barnes & Noble (Pruneyard Shopping Center inSan Jose if anyone local doesn't have it, yet). While I thought it was a good book, I don't see it as a "must buy" likeGarrison/Carmichael or Cattanach. I just hope that the Kirkfield book isworth all the trouble and wait...I have been trying to get a copy for twoyears (and just missed about 10 copies...even mint ones at $35!!! -- andTHAT is the most RECENT one that I missed!). George-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book Thanks to all who responded. I've only bought about $400 worth ofbooks in the past 2 years. Guess I'll add one more to the list!Harry from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Thu Mar 11 02:09:13 1999 (5.5.2232.9) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Adhesives Craig,unfortunately I can't help you with a source (I live in Australia)but I'm glad to know I'm not the only person in existence who likes thecolour of Resourcinol. Maybe we should start a support group! Good luck Mike R -----Original Message----- Subject: Adhesives Looking for source , in Western Canada of:Resorcinol (I like the color)URACAnybody have contact info on the above. from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Mar 11 06:42:55 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id VAA13461; Thu, 11Mar 1999 21:42:42+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id VAA13999;Thu, 11 Mar 199921:42:40 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: The Ultimate Bamboo Fly Rod Library Chris Wohlford wrote: Dear List,Just a note that I completed an update of "The Ultimate Bamboo Fly RodLibrary" with the Articles & Periodicals section receiving the bulk ofthe additions. As always, I would appreciate any corrections, revisionsor additions you might have. Hope you find it useful. The Ultimate Bamboo Fly Rod Library web site:http://www.artistree.com/SplitCaneLibrary/ --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Chris san, Thank you for a great work! Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from Canerods@aol.com Thu Mar 11 08:21:30 1999 Subject: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? What aboutthelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns from jkallo@midwest.net Thu Mar 11 08:33:26 1999 Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from plantboy@siu.edu Thu Mar 11 08:57:39 1999 Subject: South Bend 47-9 List, An individual came into the fly shop I work at and brought a SouthBend 47- 9to show me. He, like I, dont' know anything about the rod. So I waswondering if someone could shed some light on the rod. It was thegentleman's father's rod. He has sentimental attachment to it and justwants to know more about it.If I'm not mistaken this conversation has occurred before with South Bend.I believe the discussion turned toward rods which were made overseasafterWWII. Rod description: South Bend marked "47-9", three piece, with aluminum reel seat,aluminumferrules, thumb indented cork, and what looks to be a silk line designationHCH & C (If I remember right). Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated by thisgentleman. Thanks, Eric AdamsDept. of Plant BiologySouthern Illinois UniversityCarbonadale, IL 62901 from gespliesst@bluewin.ch Thu Mar 11 09:18:48 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:17:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) Dear Don Mabye this link can you give the contacts/infos:www.mouche.com/rccbfrhp.htm RegardsStefanhttp://members.tripod.com/Bamboorods/default.htm Canerods@aol.com schrieb: All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? Whatabout thelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns ---------------------------------------------------------------Sicherheits-Hinweis: Diese elektronische Post ist nur fèr den oder die Empf€nger, welchein der Adress-Zeile genannt werden bestimmt!Falls Sie nicht zu diesen gehåren, verståsst jede- unerlaubte Kopie,- unerlaubte Weiterleitung,- unerlaubte Kenntnisnahme, auch vermutlich oeffentlicher Inhalte,- und unerlaubte Verbreitung der enthaltenen Nachricht(en),sowie jeder anderer unautorisierte Gebrauch gegen geltendes Recht. Falls Sie nicht zu den in der Adresszeile genannten Empf€nger(n) gehåren,so bitten wir Sie um Kontaktnahme des Absenders und Zerstårungder betreffenden Daten von Ihrem Computer._________________________________________ Security-Note: The information transmitted is intended only for the personor entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidentialand/or privileged material.Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, ortaking of any action in reliance upon, this information bypersons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.If you received this in error, please contact the sender and deletethe material from any computer. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Mar 11 09:42:40 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "romakers@wugate.wustl.edu","'irish-george@worldnet.att.net'" Subject: RE: Ray Gould Book You should check out George Maurers (spelling?) book, very very good!!! ----------From: irish-george[SMTP:irish-george@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 11:20 PM Subject: Re: Ray Gould Book I got a surprise the other day...I saw a copy of Ray Gould's book in the"fishing" section at the local Barnes & Noble (Pruneyard Shopping CenterinSan Jose if anyone local doesn't have it, yet). While I thought it was a good book, I don't see it as a "must buy" likeGarrison/Carmichael or Cattanach. I just hope that the Kirkfield book isworth all the trouble and wait...I have been trying to get a copy for twoyears (and just missed about 10 copies...even mint ones at $35!!! -- andTHAT is the most RECENT one that I missed!). George-----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 4:43 PMSubject: Re: Ray Gould Book Thanks to all who responded. I've only bought about $400 worth ofbooks in the past 2 years. Guess I'll add one more to the list!Harry from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Mar 11 09:45:42 1999 ns2.vphos.net(8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with ESMTP id HAA31245 for; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Subject: Bamboo Rod Builder Meetings Some help please. To satisfy my own curiosity I'm compiling a list of meetings devotedsolelyto our craft with their locations and times. This includes Europe and othercountries.Please respond directly tobokstrom@axionet.comThanks,John from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Mar 11 10:23:49 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point that comes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When I foundaside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split strips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also producedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close to finalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively usingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. This willensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 11 14:02:02 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id JAA07728 for ;Fri, 12 Mar 199909:01:46 +1300 Subject: steel center rods There is a steel centered ( shock horror !!) Hardy 10 foot , two piece ,split cane rod going up for auction here tomorrow . It is in quitereasonable condition. I was contemplating acquiring it for my collection , in the category of "unusual rods" . Does anyone have any idea as to the value of such a rod ?.Actually I probably mean price rather then value as I am sure a number ofpeople have reasonably strong views on its value. Many thanks Iank from beaconplumb@earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 17:08:25 1999 PAA25537; "RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Dear John,I saw your notice on the rodmakers list, and I thought I would letyou know about the Roscoe Gathering. My name is Robert (Willis) Reid andmy wife is Kim Mellema and wehave been putting on the Roscoe Gathering for the last four years.(1995-1998) Our Gathering is always on the weekend after Labor Day andis located at the Catskill Fly Fishing Museum in Livingston Manor on theWillowemoc River in the Catskills Mtns of New York. This year (1999) thelocation is being moved to Pa and the date is October the 9th. You cancontact Tom Whittle for more info. He's running the show down there.They're having it down there to help raise money to house the VinceMarinaro collection. Tom's E-mail is: tom@cet-inc.com the ideas we bandy about started with you. Your name comes up often. I'venjoyed your many articles in the Planing form. Good luck with your list. I think that just as important as a listis recognition of the many builders like Tom Smithwick, Zimny, Bogart,Maurer, Jon Parker, George Barnes,Jacque Follweiler, Wayne Cattanach,Ron Barch, Gary Dabrowski....(the list goes on)..that come to so many ofthe Gatherings and put on such great demonstrations and give so much ofthemselves. These builders always made the Roscoe Gathering a specialplace to be. Kim and I have had a lot of fun and have met a lot ofwonderful people the last four years and we would like to thankeveryone. Kim and Willis from danielsiemens@home.com Thu Mar 11 17:18:02 1999 mail.rdc1.bc.wave.home.com(InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with SMTP Subject: resorcinol About a year ago the local Revy store in Burnaby. B.C. carried Resorcinol.Unfortunately they closed due to competition from Home Depot. Other Revystores may carry it, or be able to order it for you.Good Luck from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 11 17:27:13 1999 mtiwmhc04.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:26:41 +0000 ,"RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Willis:Good to see you getting on the list. Hope you and Kim are doing well andsure am hoping to see you at the PA Gathering in October. I'll show yousomegood fishing here in PA, while you are here and Kim will find someinteresting sights to photograph.Jack Follweiler from anglport@con2.com Thu Mar 11 18:09:41 1999 Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Joe,Try the method suggested in "The Lovely Reed", place a mirror at theendof your form. I think you'll find that you're canting your plane to thesurface of the forms. I was. It really plays hob with the angles.Art At 08:29 AM 3/11/99 -0600, Joseph S.Kallo wrote:Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The ideaofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mrj@aa.net Thu Mar 11 20:27:08 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:26:46 -0800 Subject: RE: Darn those measurements I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use a dialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you setthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is never perfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, it wouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get around this.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the groove usingadrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula for thisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusters steelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form at oneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I have put itin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of theform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this is mynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading. Now totell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether the readingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around you should beable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point that comes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When I foundaside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split strips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also producedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close to finalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively usingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. This willensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mrj@aa.net Thu Mar 11 20:36:01 1999 Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:35:55 -0800 Subject: RE: Darn those measurements this is going to sound really simplistic, but the problem with the angleswill probably just "go away" after about 5 rods. The idea of a mirror isreally a good one though. I had the same problem as you describe and Ifought with it trying all sorts of different things. I finally decided thatmy first 12 rods would be practice rods and not to worry about the angles.There was enough other stuff to worry about. The more planing you do, thebetter at keeping your angles you will be, It is that simple.PS. I am still building "practice rods", but the angles have taken care ofthemselves. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very precisely andplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'd liketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad angles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? My experiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and then goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--most ofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The idea ofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Mar 11 20:40:06 1999 ns2.vphos.net(8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with ESMTP id SAA13293 for; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 Subject: Fw: Bamboo Rod Builder Meetings We're off to a good start. I believe there are meetings in Sweden andFrance, and hopefully in the British Isles also. I'd like to hear fromthem. In a week or so will post the results. John Some help please. To satisfy my own curiosity I'm compiling a list of meetings devotedsolelyto our craft with their locations and times. This includes Europe andothercountries.Please respond directly tobokstrom@axionet.comThanks,John from flyfishing.guide@miningco.com Thu Mar 11 21:33:33 1999 (HELO cr941387-a) Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:34:47 -0500 Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row before flipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from Nodewrrior@aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:39:46 1999 Subject: Re: Payne node stagger I was thinking of doing up a 98 and I haven't figured out how Payne did hisnode staggering. Did he set them up in a spiral and then alternate them insome way?Not that I think it makes that much of a diff, but I just want to do it yaknow? Rob Hoffhines from tom@cet-inc.com Fri Mar 12 07:21:49 1999 0000 ,"RODMAKER'S LISTSERV" Subject: Re: PA Rod Builders Gathering John and WillisOur first thought in moving the gathering to PA was to have it the sameweekend as a fund raising dinner for the Museum (Oct. 9). Knowing how thegroup likes informal evening activities and had become familiar with theweekend after Labor Day, we then decided to schedule the gathering forthatweekend (Sept. 11-12). The meeting will be at the Allenberry Resort InnandPlayhouse on the Yellow Breeches Creek. The facility is large enough thatweshouldn't have to turn anyone away. We're in the process of lining up aMotel, probably on the Letort Run, that offers the same price range andbenefits that everyone enjoyed at the Roscoe Motel. Another benefit tomoving to September, other than better fishing, is that the CumberlandValley Chapter of TU has invited the attendants to join them at theirannual"last supper" Saturday evening Sept. 11 at the Marinaro Meadow on theLetort. The "last supper" is a picnic traditionaly held to celebrate the endof trout season. (at one time trout season in PA ran out on Labor Day). More details should be available in the next few weeks. Hope I have helped to address any confusion about the date. Tom-----Original Message----- Subject: Bamboo Rod Builders' Gatherings... Dear John,I saw your notice on the rodmakers list, and I thought I would letyou know about the Roscoe Gathering. My name is Robert (Willis) Reid andmy wife is Kim Mellema and wehave been putting on the Roscoe Gathering for the last four years.(1995-1998) Our Gathering is always on the weekend after Labor Day andis located at the Catskill Fly Fishing Museum in Livingston Manor on theWillowemoc River in the Catskills Mtns of New York. This year (1999) thelocation is being moved to Pa and the date is October the 9th. You cancontact Tom Whittle for more info. He's running the show down there.They're having it down there to help raise money to house the VinceMarinaro collection. Tom's E-mail is: tom@cet-inc.com the ideas we bandy about started with you. Your name comes up often. I'venjoyed your many articles in the Planing form. Good luck with your list. I think that just as important as a listis recognition of the many builders like Tom Smithwick, Zimny, Bogart,Maurer, Jon Parker, George Barnes,Jacque Follweiler, Wayne Cattanach,Ron Barch, Gary Dabrowski....(the list goes on)..that come to so many ofthe Gatherings and put on such great demonstrations and give so much ofthemselves. These builders always made the Roscoe Gathering a specialplace to be. Kim and I have had a lot of fun and have met a lot ofwonderful people the last four years and we would like to thankeveryone. Kim and Willis from fr.keulen@wxs.nl Fri Mar 12 08:17:56 1999 (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3E25;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:17:23 +0100 Subject: Re: Belgium fishing? (a non-rodmaking post) Canerods@aol.com wrote: All, My wife is going to Belgium in early July on a business trip and we'regoingto add on a vacation. Any Belgium or nearby rodmakers on-list? Whatabout thelocal fishing, should I take a rod along? Costs? Etc...... Don Burns I'd certainly no forget my rods. It depends on wherabouts you're going. Theinteresting places to go, if you want some serious flyfishing, are theArdennes.The part close to the German border - the eastern regions. Luxemburg isquitenear and also worth a visit. Rens Oosthoek (Holland) from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Mar 12 08:28:58 1999 Subject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Mar 12 08:52:12 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: RE: George Gehrke what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke andhas probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from rclarke@eou.edu Fri Mar 12 10:05:21 1999 08:10:37 -0800 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn't verynice, but I guessthat is the way he opporates. Check out his web page if you can. Can'tremeber the address,but you should be able to find it under REC Outdoors. I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu -----Original Message----- Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row before flipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from anglport@con2.com Fri Mar 12 10:13:33 1999 "Ian H. Scott" ,"'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: RE: George Gehrke Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,>> > Certain aspects of the process lend themselves toproduction techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is a sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat down the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked into Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from tomchandler@apexweb.com Fri Mar 12 10:28:58 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AF3481017C; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:22:12 -0500 Subject: Re: George Gehrke Robert Clarke wrote: I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu I'd have to agree -- George's hot air would probably be amusing if hewasn'talways turning around and nailing someone to the wall, usually becauseGeorge doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Just to keep all George's rants in perspective, here's an excerpt from oneof his posts from early in 1998. I wonder what he means about "a lifetimeof actual bamboo experience..." 8-) ------------------------------------ Below is George on 1/20/98Regardless of this highly useful information, I would like to mentionthat there isn't a bamboo fly rod today that can't be built for lessthan $100 dollars in materials and workmanship. The rest of theretail prices is blue sky, like it or not. If the truth be known,the amount of materials found in a bamboo will be around $50! Itdepends upon volume and/or production and equipment available. I willsay this. In my mind and from a life time of actual bambooexperience, there isn't a bamboo fly rod made today that can bejustified to retail over $250 - $300 like it or not and it doesn'tmatter IF your name is Orvis or Mr. One @ A Time Rod Company. But bluesky sells and a shine on a rod is nice to behold . . . but we needsome reality in this field that is long over due.------------------------------------- Above is George on 1/20/98 Today we're at $333 for a one-tip rod and climbing, and I think George isjust starting to realize that those nodes don't straighten themselves,thosestrips don't glue themselves, the cork doesn't shape itself, the guidesdon't wrap themselves... Take care, TC -----Original Message-----From: Ian H. Scott [SMTP:flyfishing.guide@miningco.com]Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row beforeflipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Mar 12 11:25:42 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id MAA29557; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:14:56 -0500 "rclarke@eou.edu" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke Well some of us have actually talked with George(several hours overseveralconversations) - he is dead serious in the attempt at his dream - He hasbought all theequipment of a California maker - power mill included. As of last night hewas actuallystarting to mill cane - I haven't heard the results. He is using the best ofmaterials so hisactual costs with taxes will be close to $140 - that leaves $160 or$190(he claims he didn'tknow about the excise tax) for the labor and profits - I suspect thatsubsidies will beneeded to allow him to pay his help minimum wages.He is supposed to spend a week with me in Grayrock in late may -some of you areaware of what that is. As I posted to the newsgroup - win or lose he isdocumenting hisadventure to the world of Fly Fishing. The majority of the posts to thegroup are either byhim or focused at him. It's His DreamWayne PS. - John B you could add Grayrock to the gatherings - the official datesare June 56 & 26 -I suspect from the responses that it may start as early as the Troutopener in late Aprilthis year. Gee how many can the Clubhouse sleep!! from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Mar 12 11:55:48 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I wonder how many helpers he has? Maybe he figures his labor will befreebut I doubt if anyone else will work for free. Brian -----Original Message-----From: Wayne Cattanach [SMTP:cattanac@wmis.net]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:15 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke Well some of us have actually talked with George(several hours overseveral conversations) - he is dead serious in the attempt at his dream -He has bought all the equipment of a California maker - power millincluded. As of last night he was actually starting to mill cane - Ihaven't heard the results. He is using the best of materials so his actualcosts with taxes will be close to $140 - that leaves $160 or $190(heclaims he didn't know about the excise tax) for the labor and profits - Isuspect that subsidies will be needed to allow him to pay his helpminimumwages.He is supposed to spend a week with me in Grayrock in late may -some of you are aware of what that is. As I posted to the newsgroup -winor lose he is documenting his adventure to the world of Fly Fishing. Themajority of the posts to the group are either by him or focused at him. It's His DreamWayne PS. - John B you could add Grayrock to the gatherings - the official datesare June 56 & 26 - I suspect from the responses that it may start asearlyas the Trout opener in late April this year. Gee how many can theClubhouse sleep!! from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Mar 12 12:25:59 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke -----Original Message-----From: Wayne Cattanach [SMTP:cattanac@wmis.net]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 10:15 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke It's His DreamWayne Yeah well sometimes I dream about waking up next to a Leonard/Bogdancombobut that's not gonna happen either! . (well not without a seriousinfusion of funds earmarked for the mortgage anyway). I guess anything ispossible, right? Folks even jump out of perfectly working airplanes! Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from CALucker@aol.com Fri Mar 12 12:34:09 1999 Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order 1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brass capcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and a prettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of my millwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them to size, asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will make anymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Mar 12 12:46:34 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I'd guess that he's buying everything at today's prices though. Do youbelieve that the bamboo rod market will bear $300 rods? Do you thinkthere's enough buyers out there for him to ever turn a profit? Brian -----Original Message-----From: CALucker@aol.com [SMTP:CALucker@aol.com]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: market will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brasscapcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and aprettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of mymillwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them to size,asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will make anymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 12 15:04:13 1999 ext.prodigy.net QAA434508;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:02:42 -0500 "Ian H. Scott" ,"'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'" Subject: Re: George Gehrke =_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460 Gehrke claims there is no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing morethan $300. So, let's see. He says that $50 per rod will be more thanadequate for all necessary materials. That would be the cost of the culmitself, the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish,cork reel seat, hardware, carrying tube and bag. He says $50.00 shouldcover ALL THAT, even in the highest quality rod. That's interesting. So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and amortization ofall necessary shop equipment. I don't know what Gehrke would allow foroverhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowed to include this atall as part of the cost of the rod). But even at $250 per rod for ourlabor, we would need to build that "highest quality" rod in 25 hours(start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. I'm certain thatnobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod! Now, surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as toexpectto be earning more than $10 an hour, would you? I mean, for goodnesssake! If, in a year's time, you worked 40 hours per week at the rate of$10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around $20,000! Certainly,in this day and age, that would be a great plenty to raise a family, paythe mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, food, clothes, automobiles, and send the kids to college. George Gehrke must be a genius! I wish I had figured all this out before,because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been gouging allthose poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my "blue-sky," exorbitantprices. I am going to have to get really serious, too, about not wastingso much of my time in the building of a rod. Here, I have been fartingaround, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 hours on a rod. What have I beenthinking!! Cheers, Bill----------From: Art Port ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George GehrkeDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:13 AM Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a question about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The post was at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to production techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders exist and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on the rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts down the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonard design. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 isa sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up for this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on a large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in the old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot of them turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beatdown the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs the high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like arod, especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail to realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walkedinto Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas oraloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at achilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460 Gehrke claims there is no = the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish, cork = interesting.So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, = know what Gehrke would allow for overhead and equipment (maybe we =shouldn't be allowed to include this at all as part of the cost of the = nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod!Now, surely =all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to expect to be = = at the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around = great plenty to raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health = figured all this out before, because I feel just terrible now to =think that I have been gouging all those poor, unsuspecting customers of = farting around, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 hours on a rod. = built = = = expensive = = see = Which = = = = they = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA1.87EF6460-- from stpete@netten.net Fri Mar 12 15:09:25 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:24 -0600 Subject: Re: George Gehrke Having built a grand total of five rods, I'd say that Mr. Gehrke isdoing the rodmaking community a service. You and I both know that hewill never be able to sustain a decent rod production of even tolerablecane rods for any length of time. Let the buyer beware. With a fewmore cane rods out on the market there is bound to be a reaction. If hebuilds a decent rod, there will be new appreciation for cane in a fewmore fishermen. If the rods are crap, the market will have a betterunderstanding of what it takes/costs to put a nice rod on the shelf. As Tom Chandler noted, those nodes won't straighten themselves and thosesplines won't glue themselves. You go George. Good luck, you'll need it. Rick C. Thoman, Brian wrote: I'd guess that he's buying everything at today's prices though. Do youbelieve that the bamboo rod market will bear $300 rods? Do you thinkthere's enough buyers out there for him to ever turn a profit? Brian -----Original Message-----From: CALucker@aol.com [SMTP:CALucker@aol.com]Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: George Gehrke In a message dated 3/12/99 6:33:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes: market will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Not everyone has the same material costs. My rods with Pre- Embargocane,1930's Perfection bronzed snakes, Perfection stripper, Bullk order1980'sBailey Wood ferrules, 0.055 wall alum tube with bulk purchased brasscapcollar and bottom, custom ordered silk, and Interlux Schooner and aprettygood bag that I sew cost $47.60 in materials. The last version of mymillwould make final strips pretty effortlessly, and building rods in bulk ispretty easy -- especailly if you build long blanks and trim them tosize,asdo and did so many building operations. I/m not saying you will makeanymoney building rods this way, and you won't have any fun, but it can bedoneif you aren't buying all your materials at today's retail prices.Chris Lucker from jfoster@gte.net Fri Mar 12 15:18:08 1999 Subject: bill arend I have added a new article to the home page..Lori Lohman is selling allof her father ( who recently passed away) and Bill Arend"s rod makingequipment..read..shop.i have included her most recent letter.. jerry Afternoon gentlemen, Joe Arguello visited this morning and examined the machines and othermaterials. He helped me measure the cane cutting/milling machine. This machine is 9' by 17" wide on a cast iron lathe bed. It is 37" high with the wheel and other superstructure removed. A possible 18" can beremoved if the base legs separate. Joe also thinks it weighs a ton. He will be happy to tell you all about it and the hydraulic straighteningpress and other machinery, materials, what all. Joe asked for the instructions attached to the three major machines.I'msending them to all of you as it might be useful. Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you all. Lori Machine instructions: HYDRAULIC STRAIGHTENING PRESS INSTRUCTIONSBe certain platens are closed, but free for sticks, at bothends before loading and unloading. Shut off at 220· Fand hold 25 psi for 20 minutes of until 250· or max reached.(Bleed valve on #1 Piston leaks and needs replacing.) INSTRUCTIONS FOR MILLING MACHINE1. Select form to use on machine2. Set form adjusting pads according to strip calculations3. Adjust tension on cork roller4. Move belt to make sure cutter is not hitting anything5. Turn on power box, machine and vent6. Wind table all the way to the right7. Put strip under hold down8. Clamp at left end and apply light tension once clamphas engaged strip firmly9. Set first guide down before trial or cut10. Turn wheel to left for cut11. Lift clamp and remove piece GLUING MACHINE INSTRUCTIONS1. Apply Glue2. Put on wiper assys3. Wrap 1*" with thread4. Install and tie on finger trap5. Hook drawstring to finger trap6. Draw or push cane through until fingertrap is all inside collett7. Align cane in vise jaws and hook up spring8. Install wiper assy on vise9. Start wrap by hand for 6 or 8 turns10. Proceed with power wrap from jfoster@gte.net Fri Mar 12 15:20:28 1999 Subject: [Fwd: A puzzle] boundary="------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC mac-creator="4D4F5353" --------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC 23:56:02 EST Subject: A puzzle Hi Jerry, Tried to check out your page earlier and guess you were working on it,but one can never tell with aol. I've been sorting out the stacks andstacks of papers that piled up during the shop inventory and came acrosssomething that might provide a puzzle for your listserve members. A friend of my father's had asked him to research an old rod inherited from his uncle. This uncle would now be over 100 if alive and basicallynever left the eastern plains of Colorado. Professor Jenkins providedthe following description. The question is, does anyone out there knowanything at all about a rod that meets this description? This is justanswering the curiousity of a good fellow. Bamboo Casting Rod6' 10" 3 piece w/extra tipno maker idgrip wound with cordtops stirrup typeguides are 3 loop coil typeCase (the really unique thing):* wood rod with groove to hold sections*looks a little like wide umbrella spokes Not being an aficionado, I've never seen anything like it. If this fits part of your mission it would be a good deed. Thanks, Lori ___________________________________________________________________You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e- mail.Get completely free e-mail from Juno athttp://www.juno.com/getjuno.htmlor call Juno at (800) 654- JUNO [654-5866] --------------3D1C251C1C840F768D57C5EC-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 12 15:30:31 1999 ext.prodigy.net QAA336550;Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:30:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements =_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0 Martin, You're absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge.My strips are off exactly this same .004 throughout their length. Manyyears ago, I too thought maybe the tip pointer needed to be "honed in" toa true 60 degrees, but my local machine shop said there was no problem inthis regard. The problem is that, while the point of the tip "zeros-out" the micrometerdial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depth at thecenter of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all. The tip itself, which started you out at "zero," is now dangling downBETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but ahypothetical depth. The downward fall of the pointer has been stopped, not by its tip, but bythe angled SIDES of the pointer. But if that tip was not just as sharplypointed as the perfect razor-edge of the groove's hypothetical bottom, youwill not actually have begun your depth measurement from the perfect"zero"you THOUGHT you were starting at. There's really no help for this. The solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfectpoint probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn howmuch your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings,andjust "build-in" that difference when you set your forms. This worksperfectly for me, and my results come out right on the money! Cheers, Bill----------From: Martin Jensen rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Darn those measurementsDate: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:26 PM I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use a dialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you setthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is neverperfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, itwouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get aroundthis.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the groove usingadrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula for thisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusters steelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form atoneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I have putitin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of theform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this is mynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading. Nowtotell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether thereadingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around you shouldbeable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point thatcomes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side before flippingthespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When Ifound aside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over.Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing with untaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think I achievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split stripsina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This alsoproducedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close tofinalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the one withthe30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated with theenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved to roughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensivelyusingmyfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planingandfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is to make alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. Thiswillensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope it wasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:29 AM Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very preciselyandplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side and thengoback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--mostofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are .003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passesateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The ideaofnot stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds pretty nice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale---- --=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0 Martin,You're =absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge. = = micrometer dial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the =depth at the center of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that = =of the groove, measuring nothing but a hypothetical depth. = was not just as sharply pointed as the perfect razor-edge of the =groove's hypothetical bottom, you will not actually have begun your = = solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfect point =probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn how much =your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings, and = = = = to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if you = setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get around = anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form at = tell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether the = = spline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the = rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This also = Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensively using = nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to final planing = know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad = seems that if I just made sure I took the same number of passes = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6CA5.617C6AE0-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Mar 12 16:48:38 1999 mrj@aa.net,richard.nantel@videotron.ca, jkallo@midwest.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re: Darn those measurements I don't know what I am doing right here but when I zero my dial indicatoron aflat surface and then set my forms to the exact measurement that is whatI amgetting. Maybe I just am lucky here?Bret from Finanplanr@aol.com Fri Mar 12 17:30:28 1999 Subject: *Fine Bamboo Fly Rod* has ARRIVED!!! Dear Folks, Please be advised that the Second Edition of *The Fine Bamboo Fly Rod*has nowbeen published and I have received shipment today! That means,unfortunately,that the special Pre-Publication Offer is no longer in effect. All those of you who have already ordered copies, please be advised, yourcopies will be packaged this weekend and shipped on Monday. Look foryourcopies next week!! Thank you all for your interest! Best wishes,Stuart Kirkfield from mrj@aa.net Fri Mar 12 17:34:13 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:34:06 -0800 ,,, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements there are a lot of factors involved that would allow you to still beplaning to the measurement that you want, but that doesn't change mystatement that the tip of the indicator is actually a rounded blunt end. Ofcourse when I say "rounded blunt end" I am exaggerating a lot, but(rememberwe are only talking a couple or a few thousands at the most) no way can Ibelieve that the tip of the indicator comes to as fine of a point edge asthe edge of the bamboo when cut to the sixty degree (or any degree forthatmatter) angle. If I can find the formula that I mentioned I will post it andyou can give it a try yourself. -----Original Message----- Grhghlndr@aol.com mrj@aa.net;richard.nantel@videotron.ca; jkallo@midwest.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurements I don't know what I am doing right here but when I zero my dial indicatoronaflat surface and then set my forms to the exact measurement that is whatIamgetting. Maybe I just am lucky here?Bret from mrj@aa.net Fri Mar 12 17:38:21 1999 Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:38:08 -0800 , , Subject: RE: Darn those measurements boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980 you have explained it much better than I did. A while ago I thought offiling the tip off like maybe 15 thousands of so. that way if I accidentally"pinged" the surface by letting the pointer slip from my finger, it wouldnot dull the end since there would be no real sharp end to dull. I of coursewould then have to calibrate the measurement but once I did that thecalibration would most likely be pretty stable.-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu HARMSSent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:29 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurements Martin, You're absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depthgauge. My strips are off exactly this same .004 throughout their length.Many years ago, I too thought maybe the tip pointer needed to be "honed in"to a true 60 degrees, but my local machine shop said there was no probleminthis regard. The problem is that, while the point of the tip "zeros-out" themicrometer dial when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depthatthe center of the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all.The tip itself, which started you out at "zero," is now dangling downBETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but ahypothetical depth. The downward fall of the pointer has been stopped, not by its tip, but pointed as the perfect razor-edge of the groove's hypothetical bottom, youwill not actually have begun your depth measurement from the perfect"zero"you THOUGHT you were starting at. There's really no help for this. The solution is not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfectpoint probably can't be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn howmuch your planed strips actually differ from your depth-gauge settings,andjust "build-in" that difference when you set your forms. This worksperfectly for me, and my results come out right on the money! Cheers, Bill----------From: Martin Jensen rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Darn those measurementsDate: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:26 PM I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. If you use adialcaliper to set the depth of your forms, you will always be off if yousetthe gauge to zero. that is because the tip of the pointer is neverperfect.When you plane bamboo, you get a real fine edge. Much sharper than thesixtydegree tip of the pointer that goes on the dial caliper. I mean, itwouldn'ttake more than a few thousands to create the difference that you aretalkingabout. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get aroundthis.What I did was use a method of determining the depth of the grooveusing adrill bit and a straight edge. I forget the mathematical formula forthisbut AI got it from the instructions off of one of frank Armbrusterssteelforms. anyway, after I have determined the actual depth of the form atoneparticular spot, I set the dial caliper to that setting when I haveput itin place there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface oftheform and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this ismynew "zero" setting. Now I set my gauge to read the .004 when I have itsitting on a flat surface. this gives me an accurate depth reading.Now totell you the truth, while sitting here typing, I forget whether thereadingwas plus .004 or minus .004 but with a little playing around youshould beable to figure it out with your own tool. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu NantelSent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: RE: Darn those measurements Hi Joe, This is only my second rod so please don't take this as a point thatcomes from years of experience. I only took one pass per side beforeflipping thespline over. Also, I was careful to make a pass that extended the fulllength of the spline. Although I didn't measure, I did check my anglesoccasionally with my 60 degree thread cutting fishtail gauge. When Ifound aside was short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over.Also,I was really careful with this rod to start final planing withuntaperedstrips that had a really good 60 degree angle to them. I think Iachievedthat good angle prior to final planing by :1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-splitstrips ina rectangular groove routed in a 6 foot piece of maple. This alsoproducedstrips that were all the same size and their butts were very close tofinalplaning size.2. Clamping down the strips in my first rough planing form (the onewith the30/60 degree angle) to ensure that they were precisely seated withtheenamel side snug against the side of the form.3. Taking the same number of passes off each side when I moved toroughplaning form 2, the one with the untapered 60 degree groove.4. Checked the untapered, 60 degree rough-planed strips extensivelyusing myfishtail gauge prior to final planing. In a nutshell, I wanted the 60 degree angle there prior to finalplaning andfocused on getting that. In fact, my pet project this summer is tomake alittle milling machine with my router and a 60 degree router bit. Thiswillensure perfect 60 degree angles prior to final planing. My angles are much better on this rod than on my first. I hope itwasn'tluck. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu S.KalloSent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:29 AM Subject: RE:Darn those maesurements Hi all, Richard says: I didn't measure as I planed. Instead, I set the forms very preciselyandplaned away until I was flush with the top of the forms. (This iscertainlymuch faster than measuring every few minutes). Terry A. posted a few weeks ago that he also followed this method. I'dliketo know just how you guys do this and keep from getting really badangles.Do you try to plane an equal number of passes on each side? Myexperiencethusfar has been that I take three or four passes at each side andthen goback and spend several minutes getting the angles back on track--mostofthe time there are several stations at which the readings are.003-.005off. It seems that if I just made sure I took the same number ofpasses ateach side and planned down to the form I'd end up with a mess. The not stopping to check dimensions every five minutes sounds prettynice,though. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980 have explained it much better than I did. A while ago I thought of = "pinged" the surface by letting the pointer slip from my = would not dull the end since there would be no real sharp end to dull. I = course would then have to calibrate the measurement but once I did that = calibration would most likely be pretty stable. WILLIAM = HARMSSent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:29 measurements absolutely correct about the built-in inaccuracy of the depth gauge. = when placed on the surface of the planing form, the depth at the = the groove is NOT MEASURED by the tip of that pointer at all. = down BETWEEN the two steel bars of the groove, measuring nothing but= stopped, not by its tip, but by the angled SIDES of the pointer. = if that tip was not just as sharply pointed as the perfect = groove's hypothetical bottom, you will not actually have begun your = you = not to have your pointer honed (since a really perfect point = be obtained by any method anyway), but to learn how much your planed = = than a few thousands to create the difference that you are = about. setting the forms undersize is basically the way to get = there. than I carefully moved it over to the flat surface of = form and read the results. the gauge now read .004 difference. this = = short, I took two passes off that side before flipping over. = 1. squaring off the sides of the strips by placing the just-split = = owner- just how you guys do this and keep from getting really bad = = =Carbondale ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE6C9E.43360980-- from brewer@teleport.com Fri Mar 12 18:07:24 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAALOfU5_; Fri Mar 12 16:07:091999 Subject: Munro Forms I am interested in comments (or recommendations?) regarding the planingforms for six-sided rods and the aluminum binder offered by the Munro RodCompany. Please feel free to reply off the list. Thanks. - - - - Randy Brewerhttp://www.teleport.com/~brewerbrewer@teleport.com from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 12 23:03:57 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:03:24 +0000 "Ian H. Scott" , Subject: Re: George Gehrke He is actually charging a PREMIUM for the first 50 rods he builds! (Thefirst he has EVER built!) George Bourke-----Original Message----- H.Scott ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us' Subject: RE: George Gehrke Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud thathe'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the "noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like arod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at achilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates to me. Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 12 23:11:08 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:10:33 +0000 ,"Ian H. Scott" , Subject: Re: George Gehrke boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480 I'll bet that he makes a small fortune (out of a much larger one). George Bourke-----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com ; Ian H. =Scott ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us' = Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 1:11 PMSubject: Re: George Gehrke Gehrke claims there is no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing =more than $300. So, let's see. He says that $50 per rod will be more =than adequate for all necessary materials. That would be the cost of =the culm itself, the stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping =thread, varnish, cork reel seat, hardware, carrying tube and bag. He =says $50.00 should cover ALL THAT, even in the highest quality rod. =That's interesting. So, that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and =amortization of all necessary shop equipment. I don't know what Gehrke =would allow for overhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowedto =include this at all as part of the cost of the rod). But even at $250 =per rod for our labor, we would need to build that "highest quality" =rod in 25 hours (start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. =I'm certain that nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a rod! Now, surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to =expect to be earning more than $10 an hour, would you? I mean, for =goodness sake! If, in a year's time, you worked 40 hours per week at =the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around =$20,000! Certainly, in this day and age, that would be a great plenty =to raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, =food, clothes, automobiles, and send the kids to college. George Gehrke must be a genius! I wish I had figured all this out =before, because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been =gouging all those poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my ="blue-sky," exorbitant prices. I am going to have to get really =serious, too, about not wasting so much of my time in the building of a =rod. Here, I have been farting around, wastefully spending nearly 45-50 =hours on a rod. What have I been thinking!! Cheers, Bill----------From: Art Port ; 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George GehrkeDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 8:13 AM Actually Patrick, he acknowledges and even seems somewhat proud =that he'snever built a rod. Go figure. I guess it's a throwback to the ="noblesavage" concept.Art At 06:50 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:what in the world is this Gehrke smoking, doesn't he know that =he's justblowing smoke and has probably not ever built a rod. ----------From: Bob Perry[SMTP:rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:23 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Ian H. Scott wrote: Thought the list may be interested in this response to a = about how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The = Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to = techniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality = Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders = and varnishing the rods lend themselves to the same Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be = rod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts = the assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the = Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble = sturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up = this. What George is probably going to have to do is operate = large volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact = old days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a = them turn their noses down to the limitations that using a If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will = the doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of a You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix = high priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved = A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear = especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most = realize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you = Leonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for The 18 year comment may not hold water. What did a gallon of =gas or aloaf of bread cost in 1980? I know my House cost 1/8 of the =currentvalue. The same conversion would price that Orvis Bamboo at a =chilling$2920! $300 for a quality bamboo rod in the quantity that thismarket will bear seems to be priced at third world labor rates = Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.comhttp://expage.com/page/flysupplies ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480 I'll bet that he makes a small = much larger one). George Bourke -----Original = <Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.c= Ian H. Scott <flyfishing.guide@miningco.c= 'rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us'= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= GehrkeGehrke= no justification for ANY bamboo rod costing more than $300. = stripper, guides ferrules, tip-tops, wrapping thread, varnish, cork = that leaves $250 per rod for one's labor, overhead and amortization = = overhead and equipment (maybe we shouldn't be allowed to include = labor, we would need to build that "highest quality" = 25 hours (start to finish) if we expect to earn $10.00 per hour. = certain that nobody needs more than 25 hours to complete a = surely all you rod makers out there wouldn't be so greedy as to = the rate of $10 an hour, you would have annual earnings of around = raise a family, pay the mortgage, medical bills, health insurance, = because I feel just terrible now to think that I have been = all those poor, unsuspecting customers of mine with my = serious, too, about not wasting so much of my time in the building = = = = = = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BE6CCD.38099480-- from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 01:35:23 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A5AE213800FA; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:37:18 MST Subject: Bastard Rods Guys;Read George's website on his Bastard rods. This is some scary s**t, atleast to me. I can't continue to build rods unless I sell them and this SOBis about to put me out of business. There goes my plans to suppliment Soc.Sec. with flyrods when I am too old to swing a hammer any more.John from Turbotrk@aol.com Sat Mar 13 01:37:34 1999 jkallo@midwest.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Darn those measurements I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Mar 13 07:49:43 1999 ext.prodigy.net IAA65740;Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:49:34 -0500 , Subject: Re: Darn those measurements =_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940 Oh, it might be possible to perfect some sort of depth gauge so that whenthe pointer tip establishes "zero" on a flat surface, the tapered sides ofthe pointer will establish a correspondingly precise measurement when dropped intothegroove. But why worry about it? You only need to establish how yourparticular gauge and forms are behaving relative to one another, and then"crank in" whatever corrective factor is necessary. Surely, this is amongthe least of our worries. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Turbotrk@aol.com jkallo@midwest.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurementsDate: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:35 PM I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will giveyouabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesomeveryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940 Oh, it might be possible to =perfect some sort of depth gauge so that when the pointer tip = of the pointer will establish a correspondingly precise measurement = only need to establish how your particular gauge and forms are = =mrj@aa.net;richard.nantel@videotron.ca; jkallo@midwest.net;= =that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give = tired of borrowing stuff ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D2E.30436940-- from destinycon@mindspring.com Sat Mar 13 07:50:21 1999 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements At 02:35 AM 3/13/99 EST, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote:I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesomeveryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff Stuart,All it takes is a drill bit and reamer and you to can make a gauge. Youdon't need a machine shop or any of the "NASA" guys, just about 15minutesof your time will do it.Regards,Gary H. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Mar 13 07:59:23 1999 "'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web page ifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Mar 13 08:10:17 1999 Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:09:36 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: George Gehrke I reckon old George aught to run for president, he'll cut the deficet,reduce big gov and create 100% employment, of course you'll all beworking Tony On Fri, 12 Mar 1999, Tom Chandler, Copywriter wrote: Robert Clarke wrote: I don't like his tactics, and I don't think I am alone. Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu I'd have to agree -- George's hot air would probably be amusing if hewasn'talways turning around and nailing someone to the wall, usually becauseGeorge doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Just to keep all George's rants in perspective, here's an excerpt from oneof his posts from early in 1998. I wonder what he means about "a lifetimeof actual bamboo experience..." 8-) ------------------------------------ Below is George on 1/20/98Regardless of this highly useful information, I would like to mentionthat there isn't a bamboo fly rod today that can't be built for lessthan $100 dollars in materials and workmanship. The rest of theretail prices is blue sky, like it or not. If the truth be known,the amount of materials found in a bamboo will be around $50! Itdepends upon volume and/or production and equipment available. I willsay this. In my mind and from a life time of actual bambooexperience, there isn't a bamboo fly rod made today that can bejustified to retail over $250 - $300 like it or not and it doesn'tmatter IF your name is Orvis or Mr. One @ A Time Rod Company. But bluesky sells and a shine on a rod is nice to behold . . . but we needsome reality in this field that is long over due.------------------------------------- Above is George on 1/20/98 Today we're at $333 for a one-tip rod and climbing, and I think George isjust starting to realize that those nodes don't straighten themselves,thosestrips don't glue themselves, the cork doesn't shape itself, the guidesdon't wrap themselves... Take care, TC -----Original Message-----From: Ian H. Scott [SMTP:flyfishing.guide@miningco.com]Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: George Gehrke Thought the list may be interested in this response to a questionabout how Gehrke can sell bamboo rods for 300 bucks. The postwas at the flyshop.com rod building board. Anyone interested in posting another response? Ian Scotthttp://flyfishing.miningco.com/ Posted by Ken Smith on March 11, 1999 at 18:46:21: 11, 1999 at 07:43:52: Rod,Certain aspects of the process lend themselves to productiontechniques. It's been long proven that a good millingmachine can produce tolerances down .001", the quality canes Phillipson, and others attest to that. Motorized winders existand varnishing the rods lend themselves to the samemanner. Probably the most expensive hardware that's going to be on therod is the ferrules. Here's hoping that he uses a provendesign like "Super Z" or "Super Swiss" which also cuts downthe assembly time since the cane doesn't have to be turneddown as much as with a trunicated ferrule like the Leonarddesign. Reelseat's don't have to be top of the line, the Struble U-3 is asturdy handsome model and about $16.00. Grips can beturned en-mass on the rods, you should see Orvis' set up forthis. What George is probably going to have to do is operate on alarge volume of production/sales asssociated with the oldproduction companies. Which will be hard due to the fact in theold days, canes were the only flyrods. Severalgenerations of anglers have grown up on graphites and a lot ofthem turn their noses down to the limitations that using acane might impose on them. If he does turn out a good rod, a number of folks will beat downthe doors to get one. Even a quality 2 tip blank of aproven design would be welcomed at $300. You have to look at this in the same light as St Croix vs thehigh priced big boys. It wasn't that long ago that St. Croixrods were laughed at and snubbed till they proved themselves. A certain mentality exist that says if a piece of gear like a rod,especially cane, doesn't cost the GNP of a Third WorldCountry then it's got to be a piece of crap. What most fail torealize that as little as 18 years ago, a brand new 2 tipBattenkill sold for $365 in the Orvis shop and if you walked intoLeonard, you could buy a new a Leonard rod for$550. Looking at what a Mint used Leonard and a new Battenkill sells inflation had a part in today's rod prices. All it takes is Mr. Gehrke getting his ducks in a row beforeflipping the power switch. Raising cane,Ken Smith /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Mar 13 08:36:01 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A82126E006E; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:37:21 EST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realize thevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again, forgettingthemotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fits offerrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45 hourrod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant is howling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the$300 to $330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. channer wrote: Guys;Read George's website on his Bastard rods. This is some scary s**t, atleast to me. I can't continue to build rods unless I sell them and this SOBis about to put me out of business. There goes my plans to supplimentSoc.Sec. with flyrods when I am too old to swing a hammer any more.John from freaner@gte.net Sat Mar 13 08:41:21 1999 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements At 2:35 AM -0500 3/13/99, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote about Re: Darn thosemeasurementsI still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give youabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Stuart, but you've actually got thewrong agency. The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)isthe proper group for determining accurate measurements down topicometersand nano-arc-seconds . You can access their web site at http://www.nist.gov/ No guarantees,but you might be able to interest someone there in the problem; and getsome suggestions for greater accuracy... Regards,Claude Claude FreanerLake Ridge, VA http://home1.gte.net/freaner/ from tball@mail.portup.com Sat Mar 13 10:03:14 1999 Subject: Depth Guage Setting Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:22 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AFCA1FFA0132; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:18:18 MST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realize thevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fits offerrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45 hourrod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant is howling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to $330,or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder. Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy, butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyone buymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tip anyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, I supposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components i canget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebody saidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Mar 13 15:32:13 1999 Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:52:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Thanks Tom,I believe this is how Jon Lintvet's calibration gauge is supposed towork. I, personally had never quite figured it out. Am I right Jon?Does this mean that when placed in the .1875" hole, the gauge shouldread .1623806? (rounded a little)One difficulty I have with this method is that it isn't hard to cant theplunger of the gauge, binding it slightly; thus changing the reading. Imust be doing something wrong.Harry Tom Ball wrote: Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Mar 13 17:15:54 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A1F8B800E2; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:17:12 EST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods John,See below: channer wrote: Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, That is his intent. or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. The Montagues, H-Is, and South Bends are still out there, still the onlycane rodthat most people have seen. He will have to really botch his taper to lookworsethan them. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy, butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. Then don't be an unknown. Have you cast a Mike Clark "Gierach" rod? It isdelightful. Bob Taylor produces superb rods, with distinctive tapers. Therearereasons why these people are known, and it isn't the Kane Klassicsmarketingapproach; they make great rods. If you make great rods with uniquecharacteristicsyou'll have customers. I think that the known makers sellrods to people that want that name on their rod. Some, but not all. I've been known to trade a Leonard for a Montague. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, Perhaps because you make a better rod (I don't know this, but I hope it) ora rodsuited for a particular application (like Carlos's 4' rods, or Bogart'sYellowRose, or Burnside's Bass rods). Do you think Geo will be able to affordmanydifferent models? How about a Leonard Fairy Catskill, let's see hismachine bindthe tip on that. Sit back and enjoy the ride, John. He is no more a threat than you are athreat toJon Parker, Taylor, etc.; yet all the "full-time" rodmakers fear the"hobbyists",just as you fear Geo. And you're both wrong, you'all can complement oneanother.Best regards,Reed from channer@hubwest.com Sat Mar 13 18:10:53 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AEFB23D700FA; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:12:43 MST Subject: Re: Bastard Rods At 06:14 PM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,See below: channer wrote: Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, That is his intent. or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. The Montagues, H-Is, and South Bends are still out there, still the onlycane rodthat most people have seen. He will have to really botch his taper to lookworsethan them. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. Then don't be an unknown. Have you cast a Mike Clark "Gierach" rod? It isdelightful. Bob Taylor produces superb rods, with distinctive tapers.There arereasons why these people are known, and it isn't the Kane Klassicsmarketingapproach; they make great rods. If you make great rods with uniquecharacteristicsyou'll have customers. I think that the known makers sellrods to people that want that name on their rod. Some, but not all. I've been known to trade a Leonard for a Montague. I sell rods to people thatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, Perhaps because you make a better rod (I don't know this, but I hope it)or a rodsuited for a particular application (like Carlos's 4' rods, or Bogart'sYellowRose, or Burnside's Bass rods). Do you think Geo will be able to affordmanydifferent models? How about a Leonard Fairy Catskill, let's see hismachine bindthe tip on that. Sit back and enjoy the ride, John. He is no more a threat than you are athreat toJon Parker, Taylor, etc.; yet all the "full-time" rodmakers fear the"hobbyists",just as you fear Geo. And you're both wrong, you'all can complement oneanother.Best regards,Reed Reed;I suppose you are probably right. It is easy to panic when you don't sellmany rods as it is and someone comes along that looks to produce inquantity at a lower price. I hope my rods are better, also, if they're notI better quit. I never figured I was much of a threat to anyone, I can'tafford the advertizing it would take, or turn out the quantity to spreadaround and make myself known. My only market is this area and the peoplethat pass thru and see one of my rods in a fly shop here. Still and all,when i spend 40 hours building a rod and around $200.00 on materials andcomponents, i don't appreciate someone telling the world that it is allblue sky. John from anglport@con2.com Sat Mar 13 18:11:46 1999 ,,, Subject: RE: Darn those measurements All,I posted this a long while ago, but it looks like some could make useofit again. I mention the "long ago" not to do anything but explain why theset-up may be a bit murky at this time. The formula will work, but if youhave a Starrett point, (and anyone WITH a Starrett can chime in here), itseems that if you set the indicator to .004 you'll be dead on for the"shoulder" measurements (They seem to be rounded to a point which takesoff.004 from the ACTUAL point).Art (Martin, I think you're off the hook for the formula.) The problem is that when you set the indicator to zero you are usingtheACTUAL point and when you measure the depth you are using a "virtual"point(there's that computer term again).If the point has been dinged (or rounded whenTHEY tell you the depth of the groove there will be a discrepancy betweenthe actual depth and the virtual depth (the indicator thinks the surface isfarther away than it really is). I guess it would be fair to say that yourdepth reading will be accurate but your initial zeroing will have been offso that the difference will be computed incorrectly.The use of thecalibrator sets your zero using the shoulders of the point (what you'reactually measuring the vee with) so that there is no possibility of thezeroing and the measuring being out of synch with each other.This willinvolve seeing (one-half) the tip as a 30-60-90 deg triangle and using trigto find what the indicator "THINKS" is the point's position. I'm going totry to show a diagram here but I don't have much hope for it. top is 1/2 the hole's width (1/16" in previous example)-------------| / 60 deg from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Mar 13 18:59:51 1999 ext.prodigy.net TAA372238;Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:59:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Bastard Rods =_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620 Aw, come on, guys. You can't be serious in these worries over Gehrke! He's just a blowhard. If you're any kind of maker at all, the quality of yourproduct will be MILES beyond anything George might crank out for $330 a pop. Even ifheDOES manage to produce something, how could it possibly compare inqualityto what we are presently making? We all know what quality costs. Come on! This is just STUPID! Why in the world should anyone worryaboutGehrke's claims? The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod willlook like it. Cheers, Bill ----------From: channer Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service,atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from theloftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spendlesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers,thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do istakethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, IsupposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebody saidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620 Aw, come on, guys. quality of your product will be MILES beyond anything George might = =produce something, how could it possibly compare in quality to what we = on another planet, and a $330 rod will look like it.Cheers, = = produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. = won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towards = people like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makers = =a bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, I = John ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6D8B.CF7FE620-- from anglport@con2.com Sat Mar 13 19:34:33 1999 Subject: Re: Bastard Rods Bill,I can't cite the quote, but some famous economist said: "Bad moneydrivesout good!" Adam Smith?Hope to h**l I'm wrong....Art At 07:58 PM 3/13/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:He's just the quality of your product will We all know what quality costs. The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod will look like it. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service, atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from the loftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting theThiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior strips orsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spend lesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers, thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same way towardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he will turnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do is takethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho mine comeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway) anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, Isuppose Icould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebodysaidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sat Mar 13 20:58:41 1999 "'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'" ,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke His website is http://gink.com/bastardflyrodco.htm -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web page ifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sat Mar 13 21:04:03 1999 Subject: RE: George Gehrke I think we've beaten this one but here's some quotes from his page. The suggested retail of Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will have a suggestedretailprice of $500 through dealers, if we go that route. Once we commit,depending upon market demand to dealers, we will not be allowed to sellBastards for less. However; if we don't go that route, The retail price willremain around $330 to $400.then what all my friends here are going to getthem for with their order's of intent of only $330. I still think we can doit as I originally said . . . but it depends upon this excellent ProductionMILL Equipment we are getting. AGAIN - AFTER we begin production, the price of $330 will not beguaranteed.So, if you've been wondering about putting in your ORDER OF INTENT - DO ITNOW! I couldn't be more fair about this. BASTARDS WILL CAST LIKE THE FINEST FLY ROD IN THE WORLD _ orderyours now. Today, the last piece and major item of equipment has been located. A'veryspecial' and 'rare' PRODUCTION LINE MILLING TAPERING MACHINE has beenpurchased by the Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company.The Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company has just ordered an Al BellingerBeveler from Russ Gooding. This is a major laber saving device that puts the 60degree angle on the underside of the enamel surface of each strip ofbamboo.It has been a very intense day. We also have the planing forms undermanufacture and those will cost us around $250 dollars each, more orless.They will have 5 inch centers and all Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will comewitha swelled butt section. This means power and excellence throughout. What we are doing is constructing a fly rod that will be competitive withthe finest fly rods in the world today. I think we get the picture... Brian -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web page ifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from lblan@provide.net Sat Mar 13 22:04:42 1999 Subject: RE: Bastard Rods Yeah, but what I want are some of those *premium* $2.29 grips! The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realize thevirtues of cane rods. from mcanultj@svm.vetmed.wisc.edu Sun Mar 14 01:32:09 1999 (may be forged)) Sun, 14 Mar 1999 01:30:44 -0600 R8.30.00.7) Subject: Re[2]: Darn those measurements Contact John Lintvet of Munro rod co. He has just such a jig. Its a steel plate with two holes with 60 degree beveled sides. Each hole is a different depth to cross reference your setting. Its not too pricey and only a mail order away. I liked mine.Jon McAnulty ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Re: Darn those measurements Author: at Internet-Mail At 02:35 AM 3/13/99 EST, Turbotrk@aol.com wrote:I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool, jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will give you abosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding them his students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. You have the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmake hundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracy without the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff Stuart,All it takes is a drill bit and reamer and you to can make a gauge. Youdon't need a machine shop or any of the "NASA" guys, just about 15minutes of your time will do it.Regards,Gary H. from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Sun Mar 14 04:40:22 1999 Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:40:01 GMT Subject: Re: George Gehrke I've been following this string with more amusement than interest butthensomething struck me. Picture this.... Nice day, nice river, creel has that pleasantly heavy feel and you glancedown stream to see another angler into a fish with what looks like a canerod. Unusual to see says you, I thought I was the only one using cane here,I'll wander down and have a chat with a fellow brother of the angle.As you get closer your initial thoughts are confirmed - it is cane! Youstand at a discreet distance watching, while he plays and lands the fish.As a true cane afficionado you don't recognise the rod, either by its actionor taper ('coz your clever like that and can figure the taper from adistance!) and close in.'"Morning"''"Morning"' he says"That's a good size" says you"Yes, not bad, first of the day" says he"I see you favour cane""Yes, got it cheap the other day""Oh, really" says you, always interested in bargains or sources thereof."Whose is it" you ask"Bastard""I beg your pardon!""Bastard""Theres no need to take that attitude to a civil question""No, its a Bastard" he says"Well why did you buy it then""It was a bargain compared with the others""But you say its still a bastard""Oh yes, definitely, I was assured of it by the salesman""Oh, right, fine um, aah, well fine er have a ah nice er day" you say,retreating speedily, wondering that perhaps bargains aren't always such agood thing after all! T. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: George Gehrke I think we've beaten this one but here's some quotes from his page. The suggested retail of Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will have a suggestedretailprice of $500 through dealers, if we go that route. Once we commit,depending upon market demand to dealers, we will not be allowed to sellBastards for less. However; if we don't go that route, The retail pricewillremain around $330 to $400.then what all my friends here are going togetthem for with their order's of intent of only $330. I still think we can doit as I originally said . . . but it depends upon this excellent ProductionMILL Equipment we are getting.AGAIN - AFTER we begin production, the price of $330 will not beguaranteed.So, if you've been wondering about putting in your ORDER OF INTENT - DOITNOW! I couldn't be more fair about this.BASTARDS WILL CAST LIKE THE FINEST FLY ROD IN THE WORLD _ orderyours now.Today, the last piece and major item of equipment has been located. A'veryspecial' and 'rare' PRODUCTION LINE MILLING TAPERING MACHINE has beenpurchased by the Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company.The Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Company has just ordered an Al BellingerBeveler from Russ Gooding. This is a major laber saving device that puts the 60degree angle on the underside of the enamel surface of each strip ofbamboo.It has been a very intense day. We also have the planing forms undermanufacture and those will cost us around $250 dollars each, more orless.They will have 5 inch centers and all Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods will comewitha swelled butt section. This means power and excellence throughout.What we are doing is constructing a fly rod that will be competitive withthe finest fly rods in the world today. I think we get the picture... Brian -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web pageifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Mar 14 09:11:03 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A1C611E00D2; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:12:06 EST Subject: Re: George Gehrke - and difficulty with names Tim,You wrote most eloquently of the difficulty one might confront with thename"Bastard" for a fly rod. However, we have on this side of the pond alwaysencountered this problem, we don't have the simple task of tellingsomeone thathis rod is Allcock, or Hardy.No, sometimes its a Payne. And the new breed of rodmakers don't makeit anyeasier; usually their names are fourteen guttural Teutonic or Celticsyllables(which don't carry well over the sound of the river). The early rodmakersusednames anyone could understand (Edwards, Thomas, Leonard).As a first step to resolving this impending crisis, I propose a renamingofthe Cattanach clan. (At least one of those syllables is impossible after anhourat Spike's.) Three of them are rodmakers already, who knows how far thatcouldspread.Best regards,Reed from sats@gte.net Sun Mar 14 09:23:59 1999 Subject: Re: George Gehrke His website is http://gink.com/bastardflyrodco.htm I took a quick look at his web site. Interesting. Especially when heswitchedto "wholesale" price. How much bamboo CAN you get in a U-Hall? I guess he air fraight-ed itback tothe states? Why do you need a beveler, a milling machine AND planing forms. Andhow muchis $250 "more or less." I've got the feeling that, within a few months you'll be able to buy abunchof bamboo rod *manufacturing* equipment for a fairly cheep price... ofthem is names "Grand American." I don't see "Happy Hooker" or what everitwas, listed. I wonder if he's got Terry A. worried? This was Terry's target market. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Sun Mar 14 10:10:04 1999 LAA11162 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:09:55 - 0500 Subject: FORMS FOR SALE I have a set of metal Planing forms for sale.They are 4 ft long, I believe they would be good for a beginner. I am asking $250 + shipping and handling. If interested contact me off list at RZBG79A@prodigy.com. Craig Adams from RckyMtKane@aol.com Sun Mar 14 10:19:06 1999 Subject: Bastard Rods Listmembers,I remember when I first started building rods how I had all thesegrandious ideas about how I was going to set the world on fire. I had a lotofambition, much of which was fed by adrenolin (sp?) After you build a fewrodsyou realize that it is alot of work and that if you are in a pinch to finish arod ( mortgage is due ) it isn't as much fun. Now you get a run in the finishand you don't have that extra time to fix it properly! I for one don't wantthat kind of presure. So I build less rods and not everyone who wants abamboorod wants one of mine but that is OK the people who do get them are morethanhappy with what they get. ( It's real easy to get into an ego trip over this "I sell more, I get more for my rods, I have a big backlog, I make betterrods,I make my own tapers, etc.) notice the key word there is "I" So I reallydon'tthink anyone has anything to worry about, build rods and find a way tomakethis enjoyable, and do your thing. I peronally am thinking about starting arod collection where the rods I aquire will be form other builders whowouldlike to trade rod for rod. I also still understand that not ever builder willwant my rods! For a person who rarely has anything to say I sure havebecomelongwinded as of late!Yourrodbuilding friend,Joe from RckyMtKane@aol.com Sun Mar 14 10:19:07 1999 Subject: Arrend Rod Co Listmembers,I spent a few hours the other day with Lori Lohman of the Arrend Rod Coand have to say it was a great experience. Driving home I couldn't helpfeeling that I have so much In common with so many of the rod buildersfromtimes gone by. Looking at the way this shop was set up with all thefixturesand hand built tools and all the neat do dads ( that I like to make myself )made me feel like I could almost talk to the gentlemen who I could almostseeworking in the shop as I was walking around admiring all the equipment.Loritold me at one point in our conversation that her dad, who bought the shop from Bill Arrend and was the last owner never sold a rod, that he justbuiltthem for friends. She said that he and Charlie Jenkins ( whom I met andspenthours discussing building a milling machine ) would work and talk forhours inthe shop. I can't help but think that these two gentlemen figured out therealvalue of their rod building and that they were getting "paid " more thanmostof us will ever get for our rods if we can't figure that out! Can we understand what Lori is feeling trying to get rid of thisequipment, which has so much sentimental value? Knowing that in the mixof allthe people who will be interested, there will be a few vultures circlingabove! Anyway, if there is anyone who is wanting to know anything about thisstuff I will be happy to help in any way I can, give me a call ( 303-857-1507)Sorry if my feelings offend anyone but that is how I see it, and couldn'thelp myself!Respectfully,Joe from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 14 10:54:20 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Re: Bastard Rods Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:56:33 -0800 From: Michael Leitheiser Subject: Re: Bastard Rods I have followed ROFF (and Gehrkes antics) since 95 and another planetisn't out far enough....He's busy now calling every rod maker who will talkto him. Doesn't matter what he actually " produces"...it will be THE BEST,even if it is just processed albolene, oops, Gink. At 07:58 PM 3/13/99 -0800, you wrote:Aw, come on, guys. You can't be serious in these worries over Gehrke! He's just a blowhard. snip snip Come on! This is just STUPID! Why in the world should anyone worryaboutGehrke's claims? The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod willlook like it. Cheers, Bill ----------From: channer Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service,atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from theloftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the mass market. Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior stripsorsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spendlesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers,thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same waytowardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he willturnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do istakethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho minecomeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, IsupposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebodysaidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. JohnAttachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\ReBastar" Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 14 10:57:59 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Re: Bastard Rods People that believe it is all "blue sky" won't buy quality anyway. Take alesson from the hi tech software gurus....almost all software has aplethora of bugs and problems. On NPR the other day I was listening to adiscussion on this and the bottom line response to the question of whyaren't the bugs worked out first (Microsoft as an example always seems toship stuff with bugs) was to ship the stuff anyway and don't worry aboutselling to the whiners and complainers...sell to the people that want theproduct. The software advantage is of course that they are dealing with anew product so they can cut corners....Gehrke can do because he is dealingwith a "new" product, a $300 cane fly rod. For $300, I think people willaccept (read this as they probably would't recognize real craftsmanshipanyway) some shortcuts. Has Kunnan, Pflueger or Unamit Offbrand cut intoScott/Sage sales? I am not even sure Reddington made a real impactbeforepurchased by Orvis and they seemed to produce a good rod. Just my humble opinion. At 05:13 PM 3/13/99 -0700, you wrote: Reed;I suppose you are probably right. It is easy to panic when you don't sellmany rods as it is and someone comes along that looks to produce inquantity at a lower price. I hope my rods are better, also, if they're notI better quit. I never figured I was much of a threat to anyone, I can'tafford the advertizing it would take, or turn out the quantity to spreadaround and make myself known. My only market is this area and thepeoplethat pass thru and see one of my rods in a fly shop here. Still and all,when i spend 40 hours building a rod and around $200.00 on materialsandcomponents, i don't appreciate someone telling the world that it is allblue sky. John Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 14 10:58:25 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Re: Bastard Rods I have followed ROFF (and Gehrkes antics) since 95 and another planetisn't out far enough....He's busy now calling every rod maker who will talkto him. Doesn't matter what he actually " produces"...it will be THE BEST,even if it is just processed albolene, oops, Gink. At 07:58 PM 3/13/99 -0800, you wrote:Aw, come on, guys. You can't be serious in these worries over Gehrke! He's just a blowhard. snip snip Come on! This is just STUPID! Why in the world should anyone worryaboutGehrke's claims? The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod willlook like it. Cheers, Bill ----------From: channer Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service,atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from theloftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting themotive) to produce inexpensive quality cane rods for the massmarket.>>Thiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior stripsorsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his people takeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spendlesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers,thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same waytowardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn out agood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he willturnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do istakethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the known makerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuymyrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho minecomeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway)anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, IsupposeIcould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best components icanget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finished themoutand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebodysaidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. JohnAttachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\ReBastar" Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from rmoon@ida.net Sun Mar 14 10:59:59 1999 0000 Subject: address? I have been having some boounced messages for Chris Wolford.. Anyone know the problem? Chris if you are theree-mail meRalph Moon from sshorb@ozip.net Sun Mar 14 11:09:15 1999 0600 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Might try setting your calipers to .115 + a little, actually .11547 Ithink, lock it, and drop the point of the gauge between the jaws. Thatshould allow you to set the gauge to 0, with the depth being .100. Alittle trial and error adjustment should allow you to come up with asetting that works using your equipment. I think a slot would be easierto get right than a hole, the point only touches at 2 points. I've onlyplayed with this and haven't put it to a real test yet.Skip from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sun Mar 14 11:37:59 1999 Subject: Staining Inserts What do most people use to stain (darken) tiger maple? Does anyone haveany'secret' concoctions they're willing to part with? Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from tball@mail.portup.com Sun Mar 14 12:25:16 1999 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting The illistration was using the .125 hole. The plate has to be largeenough for the dial indicator base to sit on easily. Otherwise the basecan wobble and give a false reading.Tom from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Mar 14 12:45:19 1999 ext.prodigy.net NAA254360;Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:45:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Staining Inserts =_NextPart_000_01BE6E20.A85F9DC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E20.A85F9DC0 Brian, I've heard that ammonia does the trick. Try a little on a spare piece.Cheers, Bill ----------From: Thoman, Brian Subject: Staining InsertsDate: Sunday, March 14, 1999 9:33 AM What do most people use to stain (darken) tiger maple? Does anyonehaveany'secret' concoctions they're willing to part with? Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6E20.A85F9DC0 Brian,I've heardthat = = Parker, = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E20.A85F9DC0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Mar 14 13:22:01 1999 ext.prodigy.net OAA390654;Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:21:51 -0500 ,,"'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'" , Subject: Re: George Gehrke =_NextPart_000_01BE6E25.C1CF82C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E25.C1CF82C0 Just read Gehrke's web site. Good lord, what a dreamer/schemer! Only oneof three things is possible in the end. Either this is a giant scam fromthe start, or the rods he produces will be of poor and unequal quality, orthe price for a two-tip rod (plus tube and bag) will be the same as whatyou and I charge. (And, too, no matter what, George's rods are still only"production" models.) Not to worry, folks, this is still just"pie-in-the- sky" junk. Gehrke will be dreaming about something elsenextyear. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Thoman, Brian 'flyfishing.guide@miningco.com'; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George GehrkeDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:54 PM His website is http://gink.com/bastardflyrodco.htm -----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton [SMTP:dpeaston@wzrd.com]Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 6:57 AM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: George Gehrke At 08:10 AM 3/12/99 -0800, Rob Clarke wrote:You might want to see what Geoge says about the Demarests. He isn'tverynice, but I guess that is the way he opporates. Check out his web pageifyou can. Can't remeber the address, but you should be able to find itunder REC Outdoors. "rec.outdoors.fishing.fly" Doug EastonTonawanda, NY ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E25.C1CF82C0 Just read Gehrke's web site.= = start, or the rods he produces will be of poor and unequal quality, or =the price for a two-tip rod (plus tube and bag) will be the same as what = =rclarke@eou.edu; = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E25.C1CF82C0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Mar 14 13:33:58 1999 ext.prodigy.net OAA345988;Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:33:51 -0500 "Art Port" Subject: Re: Bastard Rods =_NextPart_000_01BE6E27.70BD8100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E27.70BD8100 Nah!! I don't believe it. Once again, those who understand and appreciatetruly fine quality will always be in the market for a beautiful, hand- builtbamboo rod. It's all a matter of using the finest materials, having thefinest skills, and taking the time to do it right. No production rod(Gehrke's or anybody else's) can undercut that. The very highest qualitycosts money, and there's no way around that simple fact. "Bad money" (Gehrke's or anybody else's) can't change this picture. Cheers, Bill----------From: Art Port rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 5:35 PM Bill,I can't cite the quote, but some famous economist said: "Bad moneydrivesout good!" Adam Smith?Hope to h**l I'm wrong....Art At 07:58 PM 3/13/99 -0800, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:He's just the quality of your product will We all know what quality costs. The guy's living on another planet, and a $330 rod will look likeit. Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: Re: Bastard RodsDate: Saturday, March 13, 1999 8:18 AM At 09:34 AM 3/13/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:John,Not to worry, George is actually doing us all a tremendous service,atgreat expense to himself. Of course, he is not doing it from theloftiestmotives...The more cane rods get on the stream, the more people will realizethevirtues of cane rods. It is great that someone is trying (again,forgetting theThiswill only build the market for you.Now, the reality check, the one check that George won't take to thebank.After a few months of lapping ferrules precisely, getting perfect fitsofferrule to cane, making the hard choices of scrapping inferior stripsorsections, watching what he projected as a 25 hour rod turn into a 45hour rod(at $10/hr + $3/hr for labor overhead + $15/hr shop costs anddepreciation,etc.) the quality will start to degenerate. He will have his peopletakeshortcuts on ferrule fit (more epoxy, less lapping, etc.), he'll spendlesstime on finishing, tipping will be the first to go, then hookkeepers,thequality of the cork will go down, all the while his accountant ishowling...I won't be happy to see that. F.E. Thomas went the same waytowardstheend, selling rods that they would have scrapped a few years before.Perhaps Geowill only start to raise prices. Already, Geo has raised the $300 to$330, or$500 retail.Best regards,Reed. Reed;I don't think he is doing us any favors at all.Either he will turn outagood rod,which will make the rest of us look overpriced, or he willturnout junk that will give us all a black eye. All he is trying to do istakethe market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder.Guyslike Mike Clark, George Maurer,etc won't feel the pinch from this guy,butpeople like me, and other unknowns will. I think that the knownmakerssellrods to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to peoplethatwant a new rod, but can't afford the known makers. Why would anyonebuy myrod for $600.00 when they can buy his for $330.00, even tho minecomeswith2 tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tipanyway) anda bag and tube(the tube I provide with my rods costs me $50.00, Isuppose Icould go cheaper, but this is the one I like) and the best componentsi canget. I am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route thatHeddondid, as production increased they graded their blanks and finishedthem outand priced them accordingly. On one of the bulletin boards somebodysaidthey ordered a blank from him and was told that he has sold 100 rodsalready and he hasn't even built the first one yet. John ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E27.70BD8100 quality will always be in the market for a beautiful, hand-built bamboo = highest quality costs money, and there's no way around that simple fact. = = can't cite the quote, but some famous economist said: "Bad money = = = = market for less than big ticket rods away from the small builder. = to people that want that name on their rod. I sell rods to people = = tips(most non-bamboo users don't understand about the 2nd tip anyway) = am sure that George is smart enough to go the same route that = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6E27.70BD8100-- from BarbRain@aol.com Sun Mar 14 14:40:47 1999 Subject: Great Reel Seats! Those of you who have not yet discovered Bob Venneri's beautifulcomponentsare missing a treat. The wood inserts are beautiful and the nickel silverranks with the best. The prices are right. Check out the pictures in theRodmakers listing. He ships wood every bit as tasteful as advertised. Bobcanbe reached at 914-246-5882. Give him a call, you will be more thansatisfiedand make a good friend. George Rainville from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Mar 14 17:38:01 1999 Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:30:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Staining Inserts Brian,Tiger Maple is used extensively as stocks for black powder guns. DixieGunWorks sells the best (IMHO) stain for tiger maple. I think it's calledChromiumTrioxide. Toxic stuff, so use with care. But you'll like the results. I'veused it on quite a few gunstocks, and on reelseats.Having said all that, I also like just a natural finish. The varnish/polydarkens it about two shades.Harry Thoman, Brian wrote: What do most people use to stain (darken) tiger maple? Does anyonehave any'secret' concoctions they're willing to part with? Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from bhoy@inmind.com Sun Mar 14 18:01:57 1999 altos.inmind.com(8.8.5/SCO5) with SMTP id TAA05159; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:05:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Hello, this is my first post after lurking for a number of weeks, (Months?)learning all I can about the art of rodmaking. One of the most magnificentresources available is the archives of this newsgroup, which has beenSIGNIFICANTLY enhanced by Frank Setzer's search engine. This is aMAGNFICICENT resource that everyone should take advantage of. A whileago Istumbled on a discussion on just the subject that is being discussed here,the best post follows. For more, go to the rodmakers page archive and typein "dail indicator. I have learned much by watching you folks discuss the arcania of thiscraft, and I'm assembling instruments and knowledge to begin work laterthis year (I hope) Here's the post about why a dial indicator doesn't zero to zero on a flatsurface: ,The problem that you are not dealing with in your hypothesis is that whenyou set the indicator to zero you are using the ACTUAL point and when youmeasure the depth you are using a "virtual" point (there's that computerterm again).If the point has been dinged the shoulders won't meet at theactual point and when THEY tell you the depth of the groove there will be adiscrepancy between the actual depth and the virtual depth (the indicatorthinks the surface is farther away than it really is). I guess it would befair to say that your depth reading will be accurate but your initialzeroing will have been off so that the difference will be computedincorrectly.The use of the calibrator sets your zero using the shoulders ofthe point (what you're actually measuring the vee with) so that there is nopossibility of the zeroing and the measuring being out of synch with eachother.This will involve seeing (one-half) the tip as a 30-60-90 degtriangleand using trig to find what the indicator "THINKS" is the point's position.I'm going to try to show a diagram here but I don't have much hope for it. top is 1/2 the hole's width (1/16" in previous example)-------------| / 60 deg Thanks Tom,I believe this is how Jon Lintvet's calibration gauge is supposed towork. I, personally had never quite figured it out. Am I right Jon?Does this mean that when placed in the .1875" hole, the gauge shouldread .1623806? (rounded a little)One difficulty I have with this method is that it isn't hard to cant theplunger of the gauge, binding it slightly; thus changing the reading. Imust be doing something wrong.Harry Tom Ball wrote: Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Mar 14 20:53:49 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id AC8D2E300B4; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:12:29 EST Subject: Slapping cane All,Recently I had the need to glue up a blank with hide glue. I'vealways liked using this adhesive, and I thought I'd share the benefitsof hide in straightening.I soaked the strips in warm water, then spread the glue on quickly.I'd made the glue fairly thick and it started to gel before I had itbound. Fortunately I had a rod tube filled with warm water in which Iimmersed it before binding. The binding went quickly, then I rushedupstairs and slapped the section flat on the kitchen counter, turned it90 degrees and slammed it down hard again. When I hung it to dry, thestick was perfectly straight.I'm going to make a "slapping table" for the basement; using thekitchen counter assumes SWMBO is out of the house and you have plenty oftime to wipe gelatin off the kitchen cabinets. The old-timers usedmarble slabs; well-braced Formica should work well as a substitute.Best regards,Reed from hhholland@erols.com Sun Mar 14 20:58:35 1999 Subject: Re: Staining Inserts If you want to keep it simple, Brian, standard leather dye or stain (likethe stuff Tandy sells) works very well. I used it on custom knife handles Regards.......Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: Staining Inserts What do most people use to stain (darken) tiger maple? Does anyone haveany'secret' concoctions they're willing to part with? Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sun Mar 14 21:36:18 1999 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Arend Rod Company I've taken some pictures of the equipment for sale from the Arend RodCompany and put them on my site. Jerry, you can create some links tothesepictures if you desire and I've included the urls in the email. There werealso piles of ferrules which I didn't get a picture of. Brian ThomanChattahoochee Rods The powered 'Milward Style" binder. The motor turns very quickly.http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/binder.jpg The '1-ton' mill. Extremely efficient but will take much work to remove it from the basement. Yes, it's all one piece!http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/mill.jpg A press to straighten sections and press nodes all at one time. Ingenious!Needs a hydraulic cylinder, I believe.http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightener.jpg A side view of the press.http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/straightenerside.jpg The dip tube setup. The tubes are actually heated and you'll notice the'extra' tubes against the wall. Much time was spent figuring out exactlywhat was going on here as the extra tube has a bend in it. Joe Arguellofinally figured it out, it wouldn't fit in the hole in the floor without thebend!http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/diptube.jpg Rod pieces.http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/rods.jpg Tip and butt sections that have been sanded and straightened.http://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/sections.jpg from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Sun Mar 14 22:23:39 1999 SMTP(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d1); Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:14:33 - 0500 Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Yup! Except you should set the bezel to the number on the back of the bar.Also, most digital indicators cannot be set to a specific number unless itis reading the dimension. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Depth Guage Setting Thanks Tom,I believe this is how Jon Lintvet's calibration gauge is supposed towork. I, personally had never quite figured it out. Am I right Jon?Does this mean that when placed in the .1875" hole, the gauge shouldread .1623806? (rounded a little)One difficulty I have with this method is that it isn't hard to canttheplunger of the gauge, binding it slightly; thus changing the reading. Imust be doing something wrong.Harry Tom Ball wrote: Last year Ted Knott handed out a flyer discribing how to set up a dialindicator w/ 60* point. Take a perfectly flat plate (polish it flat on glass with wet papers)and ream two holes in it, one .125" dia. and one at .1875". The platemust be flat, and the holes must be accurate, sharp edged, andperpendicular for this method to be precise. The 60* point reads thehole as".108" of depth. rest your dial indicator in the hole and adjustthe bezel to this reading. Depth setting=hole dia. X cos 30*=.125 X .86603 Thus set the gaugereading to .108" You can use other diameter bits, but you still have to use the .86603multiplier to get the vertical depth. Then set the dial indicater w/60*point in the hole and adjust the bezel to the correct setting. Hope this helps. Tom from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Sun Mar 14 22:23:40 1999 SMTP(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d1); Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:16:14 - 0500 Subject: Re: Darn those measurements Personally, I found the tips to be only off by about .0005. Personally, Idon't know many people out there that can accurately ream a whole withinthose tolerances. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- HARMS1@prodigy.net ; owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; richard.nantel@videotron.ca; jkallo@midwest.net ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Darn those measurements All,I posted this a long while ago, but it looks like some could make use ofit again. I mention the "long ago" not to do anything but explain why theset-up may be a bit murky at this time. The formula will work, but if youhave a Starrett point, (and anyone WITH a Starrett can chime in here), itseems that if you set the indicator to .004 you'll be dead on for the"shoulder" measurements (They seem to be rounded to a point which takesoff.004 from the ACTUAL point).Art (Martin, I think you're off the hook for the formula.) The problem is that when you set the indicator to zero you are using theACTUAL point and when you measure the depth you are using a "virtual"point(there's that computer term again).If the point has been dinged (orrounded whenTHEY tell you the depth of the groove there will be a discrepancy betweenthe actual depth and the virtual depth (the indicator thinks the surface isfarther away than it really is). I guess it would be fair to say that yourdepth reading will be accurate but your initial zeroing will have been offso that the difference will be computed incorrectly.The use of thecalibrator sets your zero using the shoulders of the point (what you'reactually measuring the vee with) so that there is no possibility of thezeroing and the measuring being out of synch with each other.This willinvolve seeing (one-half) the tip as a 30-60-90 deg triangle and usingtrigto find what the indicator "THINKS" is the point's position. I'm going totry to show a diagram here but I don't have much hope for it. top is 1/2 the hole's width (1/16" in previous example)-------------| / 60 deg | /| /| /| /| /| /| /| /| /| /|/ 30 deg The vertical side is the depth the SHOULDERS will say the groove is (thediagonal is the shoulder of the point). If you set your indicator on theform and call THAT zero when it sits there, your (non)point andshoulderswill be in synch with each other. The vertical length of the triangle will be 1.732 times the width of thetop (of our triangle--not the hole (Trust me, I've been teaching this tofreshmen for thirty-one years)), so it'll be 1.732 X (1/16) or 1.732 X.0625 or 0.10825". This is of course true ONLY if you use an accurate 1/8 " wide hole. Changethe hole width and the geometry still works but you'll need to computethehalf-width of your hole times the 1.732 yourself.If this helps let me know; if not fire back your questions. If the picturestinks I have a feeling we're going to be in a real pickle though.(I'llgive you instructions on how to draw it yourself)Art from KDLoup@aol.com Sun Mar 14 22:54:59 1999 Subject: Re: Staining Inserts Brian,See the April 1999 issue of Fine Woodworking. There is an articlethatshould answer your questions. One, use diluted dye stain to raise thegrain.Two, add a second coat of full strength dye stain. Three, add a coat of oil.Four, topcoat with a clear finish. Kurt Loup from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Mar 15 00:08:31 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id PAA13331 for; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:08:27 +0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id PAA13881for; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:08:27 +0900 (JST) Subject: Carbolloy Stripping Guide Hello, In San Francisico or Los Angeles, is there a shop who sells Carbolloy'sstripping guide?If any, would someone please advise me the shop name, phone andaddress? Thanks in advance. Max-- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Mar 15 07:51:51 1999 don") byedtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Mon, 15 Mar 199906:48:57 - 0700 Subject: Re: Slapping cane Reed, Have used this "technique" to nestle the strips for about 10 years. Worksgood. Don At 09:09 PM 3/14/99 -0500, Reed Curry wrote:All,Recently I had the need to glue up a blank with hide glue. I'vealways liked using this adhesive, and I thought I'd share the benefitsof hide in straightening.I soaked the strips in warm water, then spread the glue on quickly.I'd made the glue fairly thick and it started to gel before I had itbound. Fortunately I had a rod tube filled with warm water in which Iimmersed it before binding. The binding went quickly, then I rushedupstairs and slapped the section flat on the kitchen counter, turned it90 degrees and slammed it down hard again. When I hung it to dry, thestick was perfectly straight.I'm going to make a "slapping table" for the basement; using thekitchen counter assumes SWMBO is out of the house and you have plentyoftime to wipe gelatin off the kitchen cabinets. The old- timers usedmarble slabs; well-braced Formica should work well as a substitute.Best regards,Reed from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Mar 15 08:32:45 1999 (5.5.2407.0) jkallo@midwest.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,"'Turbotrk@aol.com'" Subject: RE: Darn those measurements golden witch has them for sale, no interest in the company. ----------From: Turbotrk@aol.com[SMTP:Turbotrk@aol.com] Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 11:35 PM jkallo@midwest.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Darn those measurements I still do not understand why someone out there cannot come up with atool,jig that you can use to actually set your indicator with that will giveyouabosolut zero. I know George had a few guage blocks and is holding themforhis students, but surely someone could get a machine shop to producesome veryaccurate gauge blocks for the list at a low cost. Come on NASA guys. Youhave the machinery and I am sure out of one strip of material you couldmakehundreds of accurate gauge blocks so that we can all be to the sameaccuracywithout the guessing game. what do you think guys? stuart millertired of borrowing stuff from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 15 08:45:04 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Gehrke Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Mar 15 09:06:40 1999 Subject: Depth Gauge / Calibration / Measurements Sturat / Jon / et al . . I have a draft of an article that I felt compelled to do on this subject.It shouldhelp a number of people to quickly get a handle on this problem fairlyeasily. Let mewarn people that just buying a calibration block may not be the answer toyour problems.However that in combination with the article should help many out of thedark. Let me know your comments - remember it is a rough draft and hadnot been edited yet - but the info is still there along with pictures. It is posted on my web site http://www.shentel.net/canerod underrodmakingclasses / rodmaking tools info at the top of the page. It is in a pdf format- if you donot have the Acrobat version 3 go to www.adobe.com and click on the iconon thelower left of the main page to get the free download. Regards Chris from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Mar 15 09:09:20 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: RE: Gehrke OK, he can make cheap rods, rant and rave, but INSULT CANADIANS? THISMEANSWAR! Just kidding. This guy's nuts. Richard -----Original Message----- Leitheiser Subject: Gehrke Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Mar 15 09:22:01 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29822 for; Mon, 15 Mar 199915:21:56 GMT Subject: Tom Smithwick Binder Searching archives on binders found a description by Tom Smithwickon a binder (thread became Binder for amateurs/pics etc.) sent on May6/98. It references an attached picture, can anyone point me to thisdrawing or send me a copy off list. As they say " a picture etc. etc." CheersCraig from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Mar 15 09:32:45 1999 "Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net" Subject: Re: Tom Smithwick Binder CraigPictures and plans on my web site. Chris On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:16:57 -0700, Craig Naldrett wrote: Searching archives on binders found a description by Tom Smithwickon a binder (thread became Binder for amateurs/pics etc.) sent on May6/98. It references an attached picture, can anyone point me to thisdrawing or send me a copy off list. As they say " a picture etc. etc." CheersCraig Regards Chris from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Mar 15 09:42:20 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: RE: Depth Gauge / Calibration / Measurements Chris, this is very valuable info. Many many thanks! Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Depth Gauge / Calibration / Measurements Sturat / Jon / et al . . I have a draft of an article that I felt compelled to do on this subject.It shouldhelp a number of people to quickly get a handle on this problem fairlyeasily. Let mewarn people that just buying a calibration block may not be the answer toyour problems.However that in combination with the article should help many out of thedark. Let me know your comments - remember it is a rough draft and hadnot beenedited yet - but the info is still there along with pictures. It is posted on my web site http://www.shentel.net/canerod underrodmakingclasses / rodmaking tools info at the top of the page. It is in a pdfformat - if you donot have the Acrobat version 3 go to www.adobe.com and click on the icononthelower left of the main page to get the free download. Regards Chris from bokstrom@axionet.com Mon Mar 15 10:10:07 1999 ns2.vphos.net(8.9.0.Beta5/1.25) with ESMTP id IAA31433 for; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 Subject: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Thanks to those who responded. APRIL Corbett Lake, British ColumbiaLast weekend in AprilEvery second (even numbered) year.Next meeting: 2000 - April 27 - 30 Contact: Marty & Virginia Karstetter406-821-4168email: canerods@bitterroot.net MAY Troutdale, OREvery second (odd numbered) year.Next meeting: 1999 - May 22 Contact: Gary Lohkamp503-666-4834email: Glohkamp@aol.com MAY Grand Gathering, Fergus, OntarioNext meeting: 1999 - May 29, 30 Contact: Ted Knott905-304-0388email: teekay35@interlynx.net JUNE Grayrock, MINext meeting: 1999 - June 25, 26 Contact: Wayne Cattanach616-675-5894email: WayneCatt@aol.com SEPTEMBER Roscoe, NYWeekend after Labor DayNo meeting in 1999 - see Boiling Springs PA Contact: Robert Reid / Kim Mellema617-782-2513 (evenings) SEPTEMBER Boiling Springs, PANext meeting: 1999 - Sept. 11, 12Replaces Roscoe, NY for 1999 Contact: Tom Whittle717-652-6545 (home) or 717-541-0622 (office)email: tom@cet-inc.com OCTOBER Mountain Home, ARSouthern Rodmaker's GatheringNext meeting: 1999 - October 28 - 30 Contact: Harry Boydemail: fbcwin@fsbnet.com from the above, there is clearly room for a meeting in southernCalifornia.John from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Mon Mar 15 13:13:43 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA08493; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:10:34 +1300 Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Some time ago Tony suggested a Rodmakers Meeting down this way nextyear ifthere was sufficient interest. Tony's suggestion was around the time oftheOlympic Games , possibly in Tasmania where the trout fishing is almost asgood as New Zealand. At the time there seemed to be limited interest andthe idea faded. If there is interest I would be happy to help organize something. It couldbe around the time of the Olympics , but there are transport andaccomodation problems around that time , or possibly about Novemberwhen thefishing and weather may be better. Tony and I can have the usual transTasman arguement as to whether New Zealand or Australia is the betterplaceto hold such a gathering. Given the continued mismanagement of oureconomy ,and the resultant slide downwards in the value of our dollar , New Zealandis now a very cheap place to visit. If there are any folks out there who are contemplating a visit down thisway, and would fit it into such a meeting , contact Tony or myself. Iank. At 08:05 AM 15/03/99 -0800, John Bokstrom wrote: Thanks to those who responded. APRIL Corbett Lake, British ColumbiaLast weekend in AprilEvery second (even numbered) year.Next meeting: 2000 - April 27 - 30 Contact: Marty & Virginia Karstetter406-821-4168email: canerods@bitterroot.net MAY Troutdale, OREvery second (odd numbered) year.Next meeting: 1999 - May 22 Contact: Gary Lohkamp503-666-4834email: Glohkamp@aol.com MAY Grand Gathering, Fergus, OntarioNext meeting: 1999 - May 29, 30 Contact: Ted Knott905-304-0388email: teekay35@interlynx.net JUNE Grayrock, MINext meeting: 1999 - June 25, 26 Contact: Wayne Cattanach616-675-5894email: WayneCatt@aol.com SEPTEMBER Roscoe, NYWeekend after Labor DayNo meeting in 1999 - see Boiling Springs PA Contact: Robert Reid / Kim Mellema617-782-2513 (evenings) SEPTEMBER Boiling Springs, PANext meeting: 1999 - Sept. 11, 12Replaces Roscoe, NY for 1999 Contact: Tom Whittle717-652-6545 (home) or 717-541-0622 (office)email: tom@cet-inc.com OCTOBER Mountain Home, ARSouthern Rodmaker's GatheringNext meeting: 1999 - October 28 - 30 Contact: Harry Boydemail: fbcwin@fsbnet.com from the above, there is clearly room for a meeting in southernCalifornia.John from anglport@con2.com Mon Mar 15 13:18:02 1999 Subject: Dimensions and replicability All,I have a question that has been bothering me and I asked Max for hisopinion as he prompted it with a post. I am including some of ourcorrespondence here but will try to set the scene first. A week or so back people were sending the taper for a Leonard 38aroundthe list and Max sent me one that he had and he emphasized that wasmeasured from the butt up. We went around on how it was difficult to setthe forms from that when you're used to working from the tip down. Afterafew days I figured out what was bothering me about the difference. I can paraphrase the problem thus: If you build a rod using 5" settings from the top down and I measureit at5" settings from the bottom up, just how close can I even HOPE to come toyour action? Hi Max, Whenever we use a planing form we DO have linearity over 5"sections (AndI think my paradox worsens when a milling machine is involved). Thatbrokenline will stop and start at 0, 5, 10, etc from EITHER the tip or the butt.Now if the section is a multiple of 5", then those stations will be thesame starting at either end; 0 will be 45, 5 will be 40, etc. BUT, if thesection is, say, 49 1/2" long, the changes will occur EXACTLY 180 degsoutof phase with the intended changes (or more wildly with a 46", 47" orotherlength). Therefore the rod we create from the original will have itschanges in all different places than the original!Does my description make sense? If so, do you think it makesenough of adifference in the result to negate the usefulness of even copying thetaper, or is it just something we can philosophize over, over a beer? Ifthat's the case, I'll go get one, you go get one, and I'll meet you backhere after the sun goes down in ONE of our hemispheres !Artps: If you think this should be open to the list take it there or just tellme to repost it. There may be something going on that neither one of uscanresolve.Art Hello Art, Seems better to philosophize this over a beer between you and me.(^^) As a good will member of the list, either of us should inform thisimportant and valuable facts without considering the result of it. It is sure that your thought is correct especially on the butt sectionin 38H measure I sent you.I also think it will happen in the way to decide the starting point orzero on tip top, at female ferrules. I put a drawing attached with this. I hope you will find it by picture. It says that, When any of shift is involved at the measuring point, thebreakage oflinearity is smoothed out and wederive a completely different taper, THOUGH IT IS APPROXIMATE TO THEORIGINAL TAPER. This will happen, by the notation of dimension like Leo38H (I say thisas DEVIDED POINT MEASURE), by micing a little shifted point from tiptop(bamboo top), from female ferrules (bamboo top), etc.. Even if a rodis miced in connected shape, there is a little gap between male andfemale ferrule, if we are to be very strict. Any shift will SMOOTH OUTthe curvature at original break point of each 5". So, a copied rod would have such differences from the original rod taperas follows; 1. by the difference of notation of measured dimension (by devided pointmeasure)2. by the shift of measurement point at tip top and at ferrules3. by the subtraction of varnish thickness of the original rod4. by the precision of measurement itself5. by the error in copying the numbers6. by the precision of planing7. by glue thickness of a copied rod8. by the difference of varnishing thickness on a copied rod Max NOW, any body care to comment on my projected dilemma? If you build arodusing 5" settings from the top down and I measure it at 5" settings fromthe bottom up, just how close can I even HOPE to come to your action?Art from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Mar 15 14:08:26 1999 Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:05:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: John,Thanks for going to the trouble to put these dates together. Most of the1999 events seem well-spaced enough to allow ambitious makers toattend nearlyall of them.As one of the conveners of the Southern Gathering, let me add my phonenumber to the information you have ably presented:Harry Boyd(318)435-4359 Office435-2278 HomeWe've also got a website up and running at:http://www.mindspring.com/~ccurrojr/srg99/srg99-1.html We hope to be able to share a little of our famous "southern hospitality"with everyone who is able to attend.Thanks,Harry Boyd from harry37@epix.net Mon Mar 15 17:59:01 1999 SMTP id SAA15628; Subject: Re: Great Reel Seats! BarbRain@aol.com wrote: Those of you who have not yet discovered Bob Venneri's beautifulcomponentsare missing a treat. The wood inserts are beautiful and the nickel silverranks with the best. The prices are right. Check out the pictures in theRodmakers listing. He ships wood every bit as tasteful as advertised. Bob canbe reached at 914-246-5882. Give him a call, you will be more thansatisfiedand make a good friend. George Rainville Ditto for me--Just got a seat, and picked out the wood by looking ate-mailed photos of inserts--the photos didn't do the real item justice. Greg from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Mar 15 18:00:34 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28011 for ;Mon, 15 Mar 1999 Subject: Re: Dimensions and Replicability To The List This is a question I've dealt with for years because in the 60's I startedwith 6 inch stations and zero at the butt. To anyone who can spell -replicability - the solution should be no problem. Using graph paper set upthe horizontal axis of the graph with zero inches at the beginning (origin), extending to 96 inches or whatever toward the right ,and the verticalaxisin an appropriate thousanths scale, say zero to .400. Then plot out thetaper dimensions however they come to you, dot by dot. Then connect thedots. Then take your horizontal axis intercepts as you wish to build(starting at zero at the tip if you wish) from the resulting curve and youare in business. With inputs at 5 inch intervals the accuracy will almostalways be plus/minus .001 Bill from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Mar 15 18:04:43 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA74720 for; Tue, 16 Mar 199900:04:39 GMT Subject: Tom's Binder -Thanks Thanks to all who responded with drawings, photoes, etc. of TomSmithwick's binder, looks like laundry line is coming down tonight! from pyork@ipa.net Mon Mar 15 18:28:01 1999 Subject: Re: Gehrke A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilities far surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote: Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhat you eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of the internet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends inthe above.... Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane ____________________________________ __,,,,,\|/,. (_ /|\ ____________________________________ from channer@hubwest.com Mon Mar 15 19:00:12 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AD8720D30094; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:01:59 MST Subject: Re: Gehrke At 06:29 AM 3/15/99 -0800, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane Mike;thanks for posting this url, I never would have found it on my own. I hadno idea this old fart was such a nut case. He won't get the chance to buildtoo many rods, one day soon he'll offend the wrong person and get himselfshot.John from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Mar 15 19:03:19 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Mon, Subject: RE: Gehrke BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_0GsVFPuWww3K/zs+/NFfFw)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0GsVFPuWww3K/zs+/NFfFw) If he were so smart, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut and try to keep hiscustomers? As is, I'll never buy another container of Gink. Richard-----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:28 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gehrke A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at thishttp://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ --Boundary_(ID_0GsVFPuWww3K/zs+/NFfFw) were so smart, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut and try to keep his = is, I'll never buy another container of Gink. Richard YorkSent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:28 GehrkeA famous Gehrke Quote from his = assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual = 1997At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael the impact of George? See famous friends in = = /|\ ____________________________________ = --Boundary_(ID_0GsVFPuWww3K/zs+/NFfFw)-- from utzerath@execpc.com Mon Mar 15 19:36:14 1999 Subject: What is this? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009B_01BE5F1B.A87BE480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01BE5F1B.A87BE480 I just subscribed and would like to introduce myself. I've been a =design engineer for 35 years; been crafting rods for 2 years and became =passionate about bamboo this year. While I'm testing out the posting process; see if you tell me something =about a rod someone at work brought me (They think I know this stuff.) =It's marked COMPAC and OLYMPIC with a trademark: ELLIAS? GOLDEN. = from the ferrule design, I thought it was a very low end Montague, made= would be curious to know how much it sold for originally. I hope I can contribute something to your group. ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01BE5F1B.A87BE480 I just subscribed and would like to introduce = I've been a design engineer for 35 years; been crafting rods for 2 years = became passionate about bamboo this year. While I'm testing out the posting= if you tell me something about a rod someone at work brought me (They = with = = sold for originally. group. ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01BE5F1B.A87BE480-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Mar 15 19:59:05 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id AB3A1360040; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:00:26 EST Subject: Lightest Garrison? All,What is the lightest 7' Garrison taper for which someone has arecord? Thanks.Best regards,Reedrcurry@ttlc.net from thramer@presys.com Mon Mar 15 20:04:51 1999 0000 Subject: Metolius Rod I talked with a gentleman on the McKenzie R. yesterday and he was proudas punch about his 'new' rod he puchased in Sisters Oregon. He was toldthat it was a once in a life time chance to buy a rod made from someLeonard blanks found by the new ownwer 'in a back room'. He paid $1000 done, and so I said nothing. Before I dig myself a grave here doesanyone know what is happening here? A mistake or a deliberate scam? Itwas very sad all in all as it should have sold for 1/4 of that price,poor canework, muddy taper, poor components and a shameful varnish job.A.J.Thramer from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 15 21:37:29 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Re: What is this? ON the west coast we used to see a lot of cheap Japanese importedfiberglass with the "Compac" and "Olympic" logos... At 11:00 AM 2/23/99 -0600, you wrote: Snip While I'm testing out the posting process; see if you tell me somethingabout a rod someone at work brought me (They think I know this stuff.)It's marked COMPAC and OLYMPIC with a trademark: ELLIAS? GOLDEN. Fromthe ferrule design, I thought it was a very low end Montague, made forSears or some such, but it has a curious extreme half-Wells grip. I wouldbe curious to know how much it sold for originally. Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from spazz@choice.net Mon Mar 15 21:57:59 1999 WAA20102; Subject: Re: What is this? I don't know if there is a corrolation...but I know there was a Japanesecompany that made spinning equipment under the name Olympic...my veryfirstspinning reel outfit was an Olympic GVO-10. Kev Michael Leitheiser wrote: ON the west coast we used to see a lot of cheap Japanese importedfiberglass with the "Compac" and "Olympic" logos... At 11:00 AM 2/23/99 -0600, you wrote: Snip While I'm testing out the posting process; see if you tell me somethingabout a rod someone at work brought me (They think I know this stuff.)It's marked COMPAC and OLYMPIC with a trademark: ELLIAS? GOLDEN. Fromthe ferrule design, I thought it was a very low end Montague, made forSears or some such, but it has a curious extreme half-Wells grip. Iwouldbe curious to know how much it sold for originally. Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from plipton@wrtsun02.svidaho.net Mon Mar 15 23:24:31 1999 Subject: Real Seat Stains boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6F32.9164C1A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6F32.9164C1A0 Hello Harry: Can you tell me more about Chromium Trioxide and what sort of color it =imparts? I use Potassium Dichromate. It too is toxic and you have to be =careful but a real seat does not involve the same amount of dust as a =piece of furniture. The chemical reacts with the natural tannins in the =wood to give brown tones. It is not as dark as you will get with aniline =dye but I like the wide range of brown tones. Since it oxidizes the =tannin rather than dye the pores, it is clearer and shows off the grain. =I get particularly nice results on maple burl. Phil PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6F32.9164C1A0 Hello Harry:Can you tell me more about = Trioxide and what sort of color it imparts? I use Potassium Dichromate. = is toxic and you have to be careful but a real seat does not involve the = amount of dust as a piece of furniture. The chemical reacts with the = tannins in the wood to give brown tones. It is not as dark as you will = aniline dye but I like the wide range of brown tones. Since it oxidizes = tannin rather than dye the pores, it is clearer and shows off the grain. = particularly nice results on maple burl.Phil 208-622-8585 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6F32.9164C1A0-- from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Mar 16 01:04:01 1999 (5.5.2232.9) bokstrom@axionet.com, Rodmakers Subject: RE: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Ian,Tony and I spoke about this a few months ago and I'm still keen, asI'm sure he is. I'm going to get to New Zealand no matter what, and evenhave the blessing of the "War Office" for the trip. Count me in! Mike Roberts -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Some time ago Tony suggested a Rodmakers Meeting down this way nextyear ifthere was sufficient interest. Tony's suggestion was around the time oftheOlympic Games , possibly in Tasmania where the trout fishing is almost asgood as New Zealand. At the time there seemed to be limited interest andthe idea faded. If there is interest I would be happy to help organize something. It couldbe around the time of the Olympics , but there are transport andaccomodation problems around that time , or possibly about Novemberwhen thefishing and weather may be better. Tony and I can have the usual transTasman arguement as to whether New Zealand or Australia is the betterplaceto hold such a gathering. Given the continued mismanagement of oureconomy ,and the resultant slide downwards in the value of our dollar , New Zealandis now a very cheap place to visit. If there are any folks out there who are contemplating a visit down thisway, and would fit it into such a meeting , contact Tony or myself. Iank. from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Mar 16 06:32:30 1999 Subject: Thanks boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6F76.CAA222C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6F76.CAA222C0 Thanks, people, for the warm welcome! I think my system clock is fixed. Yes. I've tried out the software: couldn't get the windows version of =hexrod to work (bad zip, I think). The DOS version isn't too user =friendly so I haven't quite figured it out. ----- The Lotus file is =GREAT. You can see just what it's doing; I've modified it several times =to interpolate from 5" station measurements and to compute stress from =diameters. If Wayne has made improvements to it, I'd like to see them. I wish I could ID occupation rods better. You could tell by the name. =But it didn't look like other Japanese rods I've looked at. It's 9' 6" = reel seat (non-reversible); and the only thing that might give it away =is the "flecking" of the chrome? on the ferrules. (I've rebuilt one =pretty well made occupation rod with modern fittings and its kind of = ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6F76.CAA222C0 Thanks, people, for the warmwelcome! I think my system clock is fixed. = see just what it's doing; I've modified it several times to interpolate = 5" station measurements and to compute stress from Wayne has made improvements to it, I'd like to see them. anodized aluminum reel seat (non-reversible); and the only thing that = it away is the "flecking" of the chrome? on the = rebuilt one pretty well made occupation rod with modern fittings and its = nice.) ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6F76.CAA222C0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Mar 16 07:43:59 1999 Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:43:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Gehrke =_NextPart_000_01BE6F88.DC808C40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6F88.DC808C40 But Gehrke will not be marketing his rods to the likes of us. I'm sure heknows better. Instead, if he markets any rods at all, they will be aimedat the naive and unsuspecting, and the world is full of those "types." Cheers, Bill ---------- Subject: RE: Gehrke If he were so smart, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut and try to keep hiscustomers? As is, I'll never buy another container of Gink. Richard ----- Original Message----- Subject: Re: Gehrke A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\ ____________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6F88.DC808C40 But Gehrke will not be = naive and unsuspecting, and the world is full of those = 1999 4:58 PMIf he were so smart, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut and =try to keep his customers? As is, I'll never buy another container of =Gink. -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu]On Behalf Of Paul YorkSent:Monday, = assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar =surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March =1997At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser = McGuane______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\ ____________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6F88.DC808C40-- from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue Mar 16 07:51:32 1999 "Rodmakers List" Subject: Re: Real Seat Stains Would you folks mind describing the techniques used to "apply" chromiumtrioxide and potassium dichromate to "stain" reel seat inserts? TIA. J. Snider. At 10:24 PM 3/15/99 -0700, Philip Lipton wrote: Hello Harry: Can you tell me more about Chromium Trioxide and what sort of color itimparts? I use Potassium Dichromate. It too is toxic and you have to becareful but a real seat does not involve the same amount of dust as apiece of furniture. The chemical reacts with the natural tannins in thewood to give brown tones. It is not as dark as you will get with anilinedye but I like the wide range of brown tones. Since it oxidizes the tannin rather than dye the pores, it is clearer and shows off the grain.I get particularly nice results on maple burl. PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389 208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Mar 16 07:55:17 1999 Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:53:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Dimensions and Replicability =_NextPart_000_01BE6F8A.2F826FC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6F8A.2F826FC0 Bill, You're exactly correct. I, too, designed several rods back in the 70's tosix- inch increments. When I converted my planing forms to the five-inch,push- pull set screws, I re-plotted my tapers in the same manner youdescribed. It has worked perfectly. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Bill Fink Subject: Re: Dimensions and ReplicabilityDate: Monday, March 15, 1999 3:58 PM To The List This is a question I've dealt with for years because in the 60's Istartedwith 6 inch stations and zero at the butt. To anyone who can spell -replicability - the solution should be no problem. Using graph paper setupthe horizontal axis of the graph with zero inches at the beginning(origin), extending to 96 inches or whatever toward the right ,and the verticalaxisin an appropriate thousanths scale, say zero to .400. Then plot out thetaper dimensions however they come to you, dot by dot. Then connect thedots. Then take your horizontal axis intercepts as you wish to build(starting at zero at the tip if you wish) from the resulting curve andyouare in business. With inputs at 5 inch intervals the accuracy will almostalways be plus/minus .001 Bill------ =_NextPart_000_01BE6F8A.2F826FC0 Bill, You're exactly= five-inch, push-pull set screws, I re-plotted my tapers in the same = an appropriate thousanths scale, say zero to .400. Then plot out = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE6F8A.2F826FC0-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Mar 16 08:37:25 1999 Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:34:06 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) bokstrom@axionet.com, Rodmakers Subject: RE: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Ian, Mike & anybody else in the datasphere interested.Ian, no contest, NZ is the place to be if trout and salmon are the objectof the game.I assume I'll be finished with this little job keeping me honest theselast few months so you can count me in. I'll just take in Tassie on theway home. Tony On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Roberts, Michael wrote: Ian,Tony and I spoke about this a few months ago and I'm still keen, asI'm sure he is. I'm going to get to New Zealand no matter what, and evenhave the blessing of the "War Office" for the trip. Count me in! Mike Roberts -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 1999 3:11 Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: Some time ago Tony suggested a Rodmakers Meeting down this way nextyear ifthere was sufficient interest. Tony's suggestion was around the time oftheOlympic Games , possibly in Tasmania where the trout fishing is almostasgood as New Zealand. At the time there seemed to be limited interestandthe idea faded. If there is interest I would be happy to help organize something. It couldbe around the time of the Olympics , but there are transport andaccomodation problems around that time , or possibly about Novemberwhen thefishing and weather may be better. Tony and I can have the usual transTasman arguement as to whether New Zealand or Australia is the betterplaceto hold such a gathering. Given the continued mismanagement of oureconomy ,and the resultant slide downwards in the value of our dollar , NewZealandis now a very cheap place to visit. If there are any folks out there who are contemplating a visit down thisway, and would fit it into such a meeting , contact Tony or myself. Iank. /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from jackdale@uswest.net Tue Mar 16 09:06:59 1999 (206.196.156.233) Subject: Re: Gehrke I just went to Gehrke's site and read some of it. Put him out of yourminds.There is absolutely nothing to worry about, because with this man as anenemy,you don't need friends. Go see what I'm talking about athttp://members.xoom.com/the_gink/index2.htmlThis person is not a threat to anyone but himself.Jack DalePaul York wrote: A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from jackdale@uswest.net Tue Mar 16 09:08:00 1999 (206.196.156.233) Subject: Re: Gehrke If "what a rod is worth" equates to "what a buyer will pay," then it hasneverbeen the seller who really decides price. It's the buyer. If somebodywantsthe rod you've built badly enough to pay upwards of a thousand dollars forit,then it's worth not one red cent less. If nobody wants to pay that much,thenit's apparently worth some lesser price. I'm suggesting here that each ofyouwho sell rods on a regular basis demonstrably has a pretty good idea ofwhatthose rods are worth. Maybe George Gehrke knows exactly what his rodsareworth, too. The market will determine who's right and who is wrong. Ifheactually builds good fishing rods for $300, sign me up. If they turn out tobe war clubs or fancy kindling, $300 is way too much. My point is, he's freetocharge whatever he wants, as long as he can get. Of course, he'd be welladvised to wait until after he's actually proved his point before shootinghismouth off. Paul York wrote: A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from BThoman@neonsoft.com Tue Mar 16 09:13:34 1999 Subject: RE: Gehrke Maybe we should resurrect the posts about creating your own Gink? Brian -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel [SMTP:richard.nantel@videotron.ca]Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 5:59 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Gehrke If he were so smart, wouldn't he keep his mouth shut and try to keep hiscustomers? As is, I'll never buy another container of Gink. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:28 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gehrke A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "youare whatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at thishttp://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends intheabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\ ____________________________________ from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Mar 16 09:14:42 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: Source for tip tops and stripping guides I'm still waiting for my REC order (reel seat, ferrules, tip top) which Iplaced January 27th. I now need to order some Mildrum Nickel Silverstripping guides and black tip tops for subsequent rods. Any suggestionsforsources that ship within a few days of receiving an order? I'd like tofinish these rods before then end of the coming fishing season. Many thanks, Richard from GROMBACHERA@phibred.com Tue Mar 16 09:38:43 1999 0600 smap (4.1) Subject: Gehrke and his Canadian language quote Jack and folks, I took a look at the Gehrke quote website. Living in Alberta, I wasinterested to see that the official language of all of Canada is French.Canada is bilingual as most folks know. But it is nice to know that all thistime the business language of choice for me is French. I thought I onlyknew English, Spanish, and a little Danish? I am sure glad Gehrke clearedthis up for me. Alberta Al Grombacher -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Gehrke If "what a rod is worth" equates to "what a buyer will pay," then it hasneverbeen the seller who really decides price. It's the buyer. If somebodywantsthe rod you've built badly enough to pay upwards of a thousand dollars forit,then it's worth not one red cent less. If nobody wants to pay that much,thenit's apparently worth some lesser price. I'm suggesting here that each ofyouwho sell rods on a regular basis demonstrably has a pretty good idea ofwhatthose rods are worth. Maybe George Gehrke knows exactly what his rodsareworth, too. The market will determine who's right and who is wrong. Ifheactually builds good fishing rods for $300, sign me up. If they turn out tobe war clubs or fancy kindling, $300 is way too much. My point is, he's freetocharge whatever he wants, as long as he can get. Of course, he'd be welladvised to wait until after he's actually proved his point before shootinghismouth off. Paul York wrote: A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at this http://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Mar 16 09:42:07 1999 1999 15:41:22 UT 16-1998)) id86256736.0055F770 ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:38:59 -0600 Subject: Re: Gehrke I think we're again rising to bait here. Perhaps we should move on? Best regards,-Ed Estlow from dryfly@erols.com Tue Mar 16 09:50:08 1999 Subject: Re: Gehrke Amen! Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: I think we're again rising to bait here. Perhaps we should move on? Best regards,-Ed Estlow from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Mar 16 09:57:33 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, Subject: RE: Gehrke and his Canadian language quote Bonjour, Alan. Comment Ýa va? Richard -----Original Message----- Alan Subject: Gehrke and his Canadian language quote Jack and folks, I took a look at the Gehrke quote website. Living in Alberta, I wasinterested to see that the official language of all of Canada is French.Canada is bilingual as most folks know. But it is nice to know that all thistime the business language of choice for me is French. I thought I onlyknew English, Spanish, and a little Danish? I am sure glad Gehrke clearedthis up for me. Alberta Al Grombacher from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Mar 16 10:17:57 1999 Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:15:19 -0600 Subject: Re: Real Seat Stains 4557BC19D2E6D280696A091B" --------------4557BC19D2E6D280696A091B Phil,Don't hold me to the name on this stuff. What you'redescribing sounds very similar. I ran out some time ago, anddon't have my Dixie Catalog near the computer. The color thischemical imparts seems to be a true brown, with almost no redtinges. I would suggest that you whisker the grain several timesbefore "staining," especially if there is burl. To use theproduct, you wear rubber gloves and apply with a cotton ball. Letit sit for only a minute or two, and dowse the product in asolution to neutralize the solution and stop the process. (to behonest, I don't remember whether it was a vinegar solution or abaking soda solution, BUT I do know that makes a BIG difference!)Wish I could give you more technical data, but I'm a theologian,not a chemist. I just knowthat imho it works and I like it. Philip Lipton wrote: Hello Harry: Can you tell me more about Chromium Trioxide and what sort ofcolor it imparts? I use Potassium Dichromate. It too is toxicand you have to be careful but a real seat does not involve thesame amount of dust as a piece of furniture. The chemical reactswith the natural tannins in the wood to give brown tones. It isnot as dark as you will get with aniline dye but I like the widerange of brown tones. Since it oxidizes the tannin rather thandye the pores, it is clearer and shows off the grain. I getparticularly nice results on maple burl. PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 --------------4557BC19D2E6D280696A091B Phil, What chemical wouldsuggest that you whisker the grain several times before "staining,"especially dowse the product in a solution to neutralize the solution and stop theprocess. (to be honest, I don't remember whether it was a vinegar solutionor a baking soda solution, BUT I do know that makes a BIG Wish I could give you more technical data, but I'm a theologian, not a Philip Lipton wrote: Hello Harry:Can you tell me more about Chromium Trioxide and whatsort of color it imparts? I use Potassium Dichromate. It too is toxic andyou have to be careful but a real seat does not involve the same amountof dust as a piece of furniture. The chemical reacts with the naturaltanninsin the wood to give brown tones. It is not as dark as you will get withaniline dye but I like the wide range of brown tones. Since it oxidizesthe tannin rather than dye the pores, it is clearer and shows off the grain.I get particularly nice results on maple burl. PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 --------------4557BC19D2E6D280696A091B-- from bills@nwlink.com Tue Mar 16 10:20:41 1999 Subject: Re: Gehrke "Move on" is right. Gehrke's email is gink@gink.com to express opinionsdirectly to the source. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Gehrke I think we're again rising to bait here. Perhaps we should move on? Best regards,-Ed Estlow from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 16 10:30:28 1999 with ESMTP id ;Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:29:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Metolius Rod A.J., Two years ago, at the Somerset, NJ Flyfishing show, a "gentleman" saidhe had two Leonard blanks for sale, but couldn't divulge their source. My scam alarm went off immediately! I looked one of them over andnoticed the node staggering was horrible (not 2x2x2, 3x3, nor 153624,but rather random looking)! I didn't even say anything else, but "ThankYou" for letting me look. I won't go into the details of the price orhis corporate affiliation, but let's suffice it to say that I would haveexpected better from this individual. I guess the moral of this story is that you should know the subject thatyou study lest you get taken! Dennis A.J.Thramer wrote: I talked with a gentleman on the McKenzie R. yesterday and he was proudas punch about his 'new' rod he puchased in Sisters Oregon. He was toldthat it was a once in a life time chance to buy a rod made from someLeonard blanks found by the new ownwer 'in a back room'. He paid $1000 done, and so I said nothing. Before I dig myself a grave here doesanyone know what is happening here? A mistake or a deliberate scam? Itwas very sad all in all as it should have sold for 1/4 of that price,poor canework, muddy taper, poor components and a shameful varnishjob.A.J.Thramer from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Mar 16 10:31:06 1999 via smap (4.1) 8:38:04 PST Subject: Re: What is this? I have seen flyrods with the name Golden Compac on the label. Both ofthem were of the lower quality variety with unknown metal ferrules, light colored bamboo with adjacent nodes and sets, and sparse guides. Reminiscent of those combo rods that come in a wood box with flies and bobbers. I wasn't able to cast the rods, so I can't speak of that. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from briansr@point-net.com Tue Mar 16 10:32:33 1999 0000 Subject: rising to the gerhke- gink fly I think this guy's comments HAVE to be tongue in cheek.They certainlyhavegenerated a lot of talk and posts.If we ignore the idiot maybe he WILL goaway!Cheers Brian from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Mar 16 10:42:29 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: RE: Real Seat Stains coloring curlymaple. He would beat up a meringue and let it sit. A clear liquid drains from the meringueand he would mix yellow aniline dye into it. The clear liquid is artistgesso from the daysof rembrant and bonds to wood like super glue without clouding the grain,he would then mix ared/brown into the varnish, behlen brothers, and come out with a beautifulcinnamon color.The gesso sticks to wood like super glue and the varnish bonds to thetreated wood at leasttwice as good as wood without it, also if you scratch it the color is in thefinish not thewood and much easier to fix. The curl in the wood just jumps out at youand it does the same ----------From: Harry Boyd[SMTP:fbcwin@fsbnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:14 AM Cc: Rodmakers ListSubject: Re: Real Seat Stains Phil, Don't hold me to the name on this stuff. What you're describing soundsvery similar. I ran out some time ago, and don't have my Dixie Catalog near thecomputer. The color thischemical imparts seems to be a true brown, with almost no red tinges. Iwould suggest thatyou whisker the grain several times before "staining," especially if thereis burl. To usethe product, you wear rubber gloves and apply with a cotton ball. Let itsit for only aminute or two, and dowse the product in a solution to neutralize thesolution and stop theprocess. (to be honest, I don't remember whether it was a vinegar solutionor a baking sodasolution, BUT I do know that makes a BIG difference!) Wish I could giveyou more technicaldata, but I'm a theologian, not a chemist. I just knowthat imho it worksand I like it. Philip Lipton wrote: Hello Harry: Can you tell me more about Chromium Trioxide and what sort of colorit imparts? I usePotassium Dichromate. It too is toxic and you have to be careful but a realseat does notinvolve the same amount of dust as a piece of furniture. The chemicalreacts with the naturaltannins in the wood to give brown tones. It is not as dark as you will getwith aniline dyebut I like the wide range of brown tones. Since it oxidizes the tanninrather than dye thepores, it is clearer and shows off the grain. I get particularly nice resultson maple burl. PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389 208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Mar 16 10:50:58 1999 1999 16:50:14 UT 16-1998)) id86256736.005C45FC ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:47:52 -0600 Subject: RE: Real Seat Stains Patrick, Do you mean meringue, as in eggs? Forgive my ignorance. -Ed from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Mar 16 10:52:08 1999 via smap (4.1) 8:58:40 PST Subject: RE: Source for tip tops and stripping guides Richard, You probably are already aware of this, but REC sells Mildrum stripping guides. Of course you are probably not interested in an additional wait period. They have the carbaloy ring, so that may not be what you want. I ordered a size 12 standard. The ring is heavier then I prefer for this style of guide. In looking at the catalog I think they also sell a light ring model which may be more in line with what you want. I also bought a size 10 mildrum guide with the carbaloy ring from Anglers Workshop. Anglers was out of the size 12 and I believe they won't be getting any more. These guides will blue O.K. with the Payne formula. To get a more even color they need to be scrubbed with steel wool. The soldered areas don't take well to blue. However, I know another rodmaker who has a different method for blueing these and he gets very good results. So it may depend on your methods. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Mar 16 11:03:19 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us'" Subject: RE: Real Seat Stains yes, we would put it on one end of a platter, tilt it and a clear liquidwould run out- Ithink that it is albumen but I'm just guessing at that. I have this finish ona mandolin thatI made in the 70's and the finish is still solid as the day it was put on. ----------From: Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us[SMTP:Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 8:47 AM Subject: RE: Real Seat Stains Patrick, Do you mean meringue, as in eggs? Forgive my ignorance. -Ed from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Mar 16 11:28:33 1999 pyork@ipa.net Subject: Re: Re: Gehrke/Let this thing die List,I think what we have here is a typical blow hard. I for one think it is timeto DROP THIS SUBJECT. We have better things to do than to clog up thearchives with this BULLS--T. Now drop it.My $.02 worth.Bret from jfoster@gte.net Tue Mar 16 11:59:02 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo Rod Builder's Meetings: mac-creator="4D4F5353" John Z Have you ever tried or looked at the EPON 862 alts to 828? regards jerry from Paradise52@aol.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:39 1999 Subject: Re: RE: Gehrke As a new member to this group, I, for one, would greatly appreciate havingtherecipes for making my own "Gink", both floating and sinking.Thanks,Mark P. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Mar 16 12:46:42 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'Paradise52@aol.com'" Subject: RE: Gehrke somebody should post this to the list. Albolene is the floatent but I don'tno what thesinking is. ----------From: Paradise52@aol.com[SMTP:Paradise52@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 10:14 AM Subject: RE: Gehrke As a new member to this group, I, for one, would greatly appreciatehaving therecipes for making my own "Gink", both floating and sinking.Thanks,Mark P. from anglport@con2.com Tue Mar 16 13:58:00 1999 Subject: Re: Dimensions and Replicability Bill,But if you start your graph connecting dots at "0" and I start mygraphat, say 48" and work backward, our "flexure points" (of the line, I don'tknow about the rod) will all be different, allbeit by a fixed amount. Won'tthat be a more drastic difference than a 5" broken line and a 6" brokenline following the same taper? I realise that in the example you're usingthey (the stations) would gradually pull away from each other and minewould always be 3" out of synch. I'm only doing this as a "gedankenexperiment" since I don't have one rod mic-ed both ways yet.I guess I'm too lazy to mic one of my own and run a real head-to-head. I'dstill have to build the thing to find out if the differences I discoveredmathematically would affect the actual action of the rod!Clickety, clickety, click,Art At 06:58 PM 3/15/99 -0500, Bill Fink wrote:To The List This is a question I've dealt with for years because in the 60's I startedwith 6 inch stations and zero at the butt. To anyone who can spell -replicability - the solution should be no problem. Using graph paper set upthe horizontal axis of the graph with zero inches at the beginning (origin), extending to 96 inches or whatever toward the right ,and the verticalaxisin an appropriate thousanths scale, say zero to .400. Then plot out thetaper dimensions however they come to you, dot by dot. Then connect thedots. Then take your horizontal axis intercepts as you wish to build(starting at zero at the tip if you wish) from the resulting curve and youare in business. With inputs at 5 inch intervals the accuracy will almostalways be plus/minus .001 Bill from gaff@carol.net Tue Mar 16 15:46:31 1999 Subject: crappie taper list members,here in the deep south we don't get to do much trout fishing,but thecrappie fishing is terrific. what would be a good taper to for this little fish. thanking you for your advice,wil. from DavidM5708@aol.com Tue Mar 16 15:59:38 1999 Subject: Lori Lohman update Hello gentlemen, It's really me under my AOL pseudonym. Thought you might appreciate anupdateon things. I've had lots of calls and emails since Jerry so kindly postedtheinventory and am getting a much better idea of what various items areworth.But I still need some more help on the thread (and no, I haven't had time toget numbers off of boxes or spools so the inventory is basicallyunchanged). Thanks to Brian Thoman everyone online can see the machines I am dealingwith.I can RUN the mill, despite it's size, if that's any help. You mustremember,I am a historian and gardener so really do need your guidance. It might beworthwhile to note the photo sites again: all arehttp://www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/to see the milling machine add mill.jpg after arend/ or addstraighter.jpg, straighterside.jpg (the better view), binder.jpg,diptube.jpg,rods.jpg and sections.jpg. One tool only partially on the inventory is a Stanley 248A groove cutterplanewith 5 cast iron cutters in an oak box. This tool hasn't been made since1958and I am quite sure it dates more toward the earliest manufacture--1938. Iinclude this for all you tool junkies out there. It's getting to be fun and I am even finding some lost friends like GeorgeFraley through Daryll Whitehead. I hope Al Ballinger is going to join Daryllin providing us all with some opinion on the milling machine and hydraulicpress. Keep the information coming, especially thoughts on thread. I am countingonall the rodmakers to pass around the Arend-Kudalis-Lohman rod legacy. Thanks a bundle,Lori from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Tue Mar 16 16:25:38 1999 Subject: crappie taper Wil,I don't remember you giving your location but my in laws think that I'min the Deeeeeep South in Arkansas. ( I know I'm not.) We havewonderful trout fishing in Northern Arkansas. But your right theCrappie fishing is great. So please post any recommended tapers to thelist for the rest of us Damn Yankees. (I'm originally form Michigan andwon't go home. ThanksDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net GA>list members,GA>here in the deep south we don't get to do much trout fishing,but theGA>crappie fishing is terrific. what would be a good taper to for thisGA>little fish. thanking you for your advice,GA>wil. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Mar 16 17:54:33 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP6g.R) for ; Tue, 16 Mar1999 18:50:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Gehrke Just go to your local druggist and get some "Abolone"...i can't rememberwhether it is the floatant or the sink. I'll check my archives and let youknow. JoeBoy -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Gehrke As a new member to this group, I, for one, would greatly appreciatehavingtherecipes for making my own "Gink", both floating and sinking.Thanks,Mark P. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Mar 16 17:56:49 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP6g.R) for ; Tue, 16 Mar1999 18:52:40 -0500 , Subject: Re: Gehrke somebody should post this to the list. Albolene is the floatent but I don'tno what the sinking is. Patrick: Both you and I know that the Abolone is the floatant, but Gherke tellseveryone that he spent years and thousands of $$$ on developing it.Sheesh...what a Geek.... That's a good catch phrase: "Gherke the Gink Geek" JoeBoy from ldavis@coweblink.net Tue Mar 16 19:37:23 1999 COWEBLINK1(MailMax 2.040)with ESMTP id 0 for ldavis@coweblink.net; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:43:05 -0700 MST Subject: Gehrke "Gink" boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.04A59000" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.04A59000 I was talking to George at a flyfishing show in Denver several years ago =and he was espousing (bragging?) about his Gink. A gentleman standing =next to me said "Go to the drug store and buy a jar of Albolene for 2-3 =dollars, same stuff. So I did. My jar is labeled as "Unscented Albolene =Liquifying Cleanser". I bought a 12 oz jar and still have 90% left. You =can buy it off the shelf at most drug stores. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.04A59000 I was talking to George at a = Denver several years ago and he was espousing (bragging?) about his = gentleman standing next to me said "Go to the drug store and buy a = "Unscented Albolene Liquifying Cleanser". I bought a 12 oz jar = stores. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE6FDC.04A59000-- from stevef@inetone.net Tue Mar 16 21:29:42 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AB1A2AD00AE; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:53:30 EST Subject: dial indicator boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6FED.72F454E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6FED.72F454E0 What is the best type of dial indicator to get for rodmaking? I am a =beginner-have a base-looking for a indicator. What total reading should =I look for-or does it matter?Will a digal work out?ThanksSteve ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6FED.72F454E0 What is the best type of dial = reading should I look for-or does it matter?Will a digal work =out?ThanksSteve ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE6FED.72F454E0-- from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 16 22:27:15 1999 GROMBACHERA@phibred.com, jackdale@uswest.net Subject: Re: RE: Gehrke and his Canadian language quote Hey, gang,What Ed Estlow said.Hank W. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Mar 16 22:33:08 1999 pyork@ipa.net, flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: RE: Gehrke Richard,You don't have to buy Gink, just get a large jar of albolene. I wouldn't besurprised if old nutso didn't do it years ago and called it Gink. Buy itwholeale and sell it in small containers at premium prices-its the"amurricanway".Just my $.02.Regards,Hank W. from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue Mar 16 22:58:48 1999 Subject: Re: crappie taper I remember the PHY Martha Marie (7'6" 5/6) is touted as a great bluegillrodin the old Paul Young catalogs. I think the taper is in the online hexrodarchive. Rob from spazz@choice.net Tue Mar 16 23:41:40 1999 AAA10309; Subject: Re: dial indicator boundary="------------2D2575354AF92349572B3E87" --------------2D2575354AF92349572B3E87 Blatant plug to follow: Check out Enco...they have great deals on Mitutoyo digital indicatorsand calipers. Great prices and wonderful service...ask for Rebecca Also, Jon Lintvet (munro Rod Co.) sent me his base for the depth guagequickly and it is a great product....this may serve as a response to thequestions of his response time...take a second and talk to him,,he's aneat guy No interest here other than promoting organizations ( from myexperience) that provide good products and services which are so raretoday. Kev steve wrote: What is the best type of dial indicator to get for rodmaking? I am abeginner- have a base-looking for a indicator. What total readingshould I look for-or does it matter?Will a digal work out?ThanksSteve --------------2D2575354AF92349572B3E87 Blatant plug to follow:Check out Enco...they have great deals on Mitutoyo digital indicators RebeccaAlso, Jon Lintvet (munro Rod Co.) sent me his base for the depth guagequickly and it is a great product....this may serve as a response to thequestions of his response time...take a second and talk to him,,he's aneat guyNo interest here other than promoting organizations ( from my that provide good products and services which are so rare today.Kevsteve wrote: isthe best type of dial indicator to get for rodmaking? I am a beginner-havea base-looking for a indicator. What total reading should I look for-ordoes it matter?Will a digal work out?ThanksSteve --------------2D2575354AF92349572B3E87-- from anglport@con2.com Wed Mar 17 07:49:09 1999 ""BASTARD" is top of the line in files and cutting tools. It is one of themost respected names in engineering and/or American Technology. " Not to start another go-round on blowhards and idiots, but I alwaysthoughta bastard file was a CUT, not a brand or a quality standard.Am I wrong or is the bag-o'-wind?Art from anglport@con2.com Wed Mar 17 07:51:58 1999 Subject: Re: Dimensions and Replicability Just read this at ROFF and thought I'd heard of the name here on the list.If anyone wants to be altruistic, they can help this guy out.Art from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Mar 17 08:17:46 1999 ext.prodigy.net JAA245714;Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:17:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Gehrke =_NextPart_000_01BE7056.BDC73500" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE7056.BDC73500 Well, of course George is free to charge whatever he wishes. That's notthe point here. The point is that George claims "our" prices areexorbitantly inflated. But I ask you, do any of you know any rod makers(charging between $800 - $1200) who have gotten rich from the fruits oftheir labors? Even if one were to gross $1200 per rod, your net profit after taxes,insurance, overhead, advertising and marketing, shop-setup and materialswouldn't be more than $600 - $700 per rod. So, you'd actually have to sell50 rods per year in order to net an annual income of $35,000. Would thatbe exorbitant? And do you think you could actually build 50 rods a yearand get them into the hands of customers? I think we can pretty safely ignore Gehrke. The market will take care ofhim. And I think we can also stop being apologetic in justifying the"market value" of our bamboo fly rods. Just do the math. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Jack Dale Cc: flyh2o@worldnet.att.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: GehrkeDate: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:08 AM If "what a rod is worth" equates to "what a buyer will pay," then it hasneverbeen the seller who really decides price. It's the buyer. If somebodywantsthe rod you've built badly enough to pay upwards of a thousand dollars then it's worth not one red cent less. If nobody wants to pay that much,thenit's apparently worth some lesser price. I'm suggesting here that eachof youwho sell rods on a regular basis demonstrably has a pretty good idea ofwhatthose rods are worth. Maybe George Gehrke knows exactly what his rodsareworth, too. The market will determine who's right and who is wrong. Ifheactually builds good fishing rods for $300, sign me up. If they turn outto be war clubs or fancy kindling, $300 is way too much. My point is, he'sfree tocharge whatever he wants, as long as he can get. Of course, he'd be welladvised to wait until after he's actually proved his point beforeshooting hismouth off. Paul York wrote: A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "you arewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at thishttp://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends in theabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_01BE7056.BDC73500 Well, of course George is = makers (charging between $800 - $1200) who have gotten rich from the = per rod, your net profit after taxes, insurance, overhead, advertising =and marketing, shop-setup and materials wouldn't be more than $600 - = = worth" equates to "what a buyer will pay," then it has = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE7056.BDC73500-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Mar 17 08:23:57 1999 ext.prodigy.net JAA178090;Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:23:49 -0500 Subject: Re: =_NextPart_000_01BE7057.A1CBB460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE7057.A1CBB460 There's a possibility the name could refer, instead, to the promoter inquestion. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Art Port Subject: Date: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 5:50 AM ""BASTARD" is top of the line in files and cutting tools. It is one ofthemost respected names in engineering and/or American Technology. " Not to start another go-round on blowhards and idiots, but I alwaysthoughta bastard file was a CUT, not a brand or a quality standard.Am I wrong or is the bag-o'-wind?Art------=_NextPart_000_01BE7057.A1CBB460 There's a possibility the =name could refer, instead, to the promoter in question.Cheers, = = respected names in engineering and/or American Technology. = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE7057.A1CBB460-- from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Wed Mar 17 08:24:19 1999 Subject: RE: Gehrke Found my jar of Alboleen at the local Osco Drug Store. Should last alifetime. As far a a substitute for Xink, wouldn't it be some sort of soap?Something is needed to break the surface tension of the water. Willhave to try various types of soap on flys to see what makes them sinkbest. Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net FI>Richard,FI> You don't have to buy Gink, just get a large jar of albolene. I wouldn'tFI>surprised if old nutso didn't do it years ago and called it Gink. Buy itFI>wholeale and sell it in small containers at premium prices-its the"amurricaFI>way".FI> Just my $.02.FI> Regards,FI> Hank W.FI> from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Mar 17 09:02:47 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id KAA19303; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 1999 09:51:19 -0500 "pyork@ipa.net" "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Gehrke Gee Bill -You mean that I can't expect you to stop by with your private jet - that will whiskus off to some remote privately owned fly fishing hot spot - bummer.George called again last night - in the tone of the conversation Isuspect that herealizes that he may lose a bit on the initial offering of Bastards but oncethe ROFF listpurchasers are dealt with it sounded as if the price of his rods would be inthe $500 range Perhaps Georgewill be Terry A's dream come true. I have my reservations. And there havebeen some commentsdirected at makers and other groups(ethnic)that I would hope that folkshere don'tappreciate. However when the mushroom cloud forms I doubt that it willspread too far outward from ground zero. from destinycon@mindspring.com Wed Mar 17 11:44:49 1999 Subject: Re: dial indicator At 08:42 PM 3/16/99 -0500, steve wrote:What is the best type of dial indicator to get for rodmaking? I am abeginner-have a base-looking for a indicator. What total reading should Ilook for-or does it matter?Will a digal work out? Thanks Steve Steve,Digitals are very nice and very expensive, I use a dial. Weshoffcompanycarries a Mitutoyo dail indicators (under their own name) for about $30.This is the best price I have found on this indicator.http://www.westhoffinc.com Regards,Gary H. from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Mar 17 12:33:40 1999