Subject: Measurements Guys,Being a rookie, I've missed something along the line here during the manyposts referring to measuring the depth along the planing form.I was wondering why, if the forms are made accurately to produce the 60degree angle required for a hex rod, isn't it possible to measure from oneside of the form to the other at the top edge of the groove and use thismeasurement for the width of the individual pieces. Using the 60 degreeangles would mean that from the end view you would be creating anequilateral triangle and therefore all the sides would be the same width,wouldn't they?Like I said, I'm a rookie, so if someone would show me where my thinkingis'off', I would appreciate it. I need a perspective reorientation!Thanks,Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Mar 17 12:33:46 1999 Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:29:27 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gehrke Poshiblaly im not in a fit state to coment ryte now cos its bin st patrikzday night and iyve had a few jars of Guinness had a few jars ov guinnesssshad a few andyhow i wunda wot beer old george drinks?? Have a great St Patricks day all, the pub's the only place to carry on aconversation as mute as the likely hood of George succeeding or not.Sounds like his prices will rise by the day untill he realises he's fullof p**s and wind and goes on to annoy the next minority group. I stillreckon he should run for congress. Not! Tony Well, of course George is free to charge whatever he wishes. That's notthe point here. The point is that George claims "our" prices areexorbitantly inflated. But I ask you, do any of you know any rod makers(charging between $800 - $1200) who have gotten rich from the fruits oftheir labors? Even if one were to gross $1200 per rod, your net profit after taxes,insurance, overhead, advertising and marketing, shop-setup andmaterialswouldn't be more than $600 - $700 per rod. So, you'd actually have tosell50 rods per year in order to net an annual income of $35,000. Would thatbe exorbitant? And do you think you could actually build 50 rods a yearand get them into the hands of customers? I think we can pretty safely ignore Gehrke. The market will take care ofhim. And I think we can also stop being apologetic in justifying the"market value" of our bamboo fly rods. Just do the math. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Jack Dale Cc: flyh2o@worldnet.att.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: GehrkeDate: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:08 AM If "what a rod is worth" equates to "what a buyer will pay," then it hasneverbeen the seller who really decides price. It's the buyer. If somebodywantsthe rod you've built badly enough to pay upwards of a thousand dollars then it's worth not one red cent less. If nobody wants to pay thatmuch,thenit's apparently worth some lesser price. I'm suggesting here that eachof youwho sell rods on a regular basis demonstrably has a pretty good idea ofwhatthose rods are worth. Maybe George Gehrke knows exactly what hisrodsareworth, too. The market will determine who's right and who is wrong. Ifheactually builds good fishing rods for $300, sign me up. If they turn outto be war clubs or fancy kindling, $300 is way too much. My point is, he'sfree tocharge whatever he wants, as long as he can get. Of course, he'd bewelladvised to wait until after he's actually proved his point beforeshooting hismouth off. Paul York wrote: A famous Gehrke Quote from his site: I assure you, my genius, my education, my intellectual abilitiesfar surpasses you in many areas. Gehrke - 23 March 1997 At 2:29 PM -0000 3/15/99, Michael Leitheiser wrote:Some time ago it was very trendy to espouse the thought that "youarewhatyou eat". If you think you "are you say" or in the context of theinternet, write, take a look at thishttp://members.xoom.com/the_gink/ Still concerned about the impact of George? See famous friends intheabove....Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane ______________________________________,,,,,\|/,.(_ /|\____________________________________ /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Wed Mar 17 12:53:14 1999 1999 18:52:29 UT 16-1998)) id86256737.00676BBC ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:49:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Measurements Mike, What you say is correct, in theory. As it turns out, it's well nighimpossibleto make that measurement with any accuracy at all. In addition, we're notafterthe side of the triangle, we're after the height, which is the side x cos30*.This height is half the rod "diameter," a misnomer (albeit a convenientone) aswe're really measuring across flats. Hope this helps.Best regards,-Ed Estlow "michael w. shaffer" on 03/17/99 12:34:09PM Please respond to mschaffer@mindspring.com cc: Subject: Measurements Guys,Being a rookie, I've missed something along the line here during the manyposts referring to measuring the depth along the planing form.I was wondering why, if the forms are made accurately to produce the 60degree angle required for a hex rod, isn't it possible to measure from oneside of the form to the other at the top edge of the groove and use thismeasurement for the width of the individual pieces. Using the 60 degreeangles would mean that from the end view you would be creating anequilateral triangle and therefore all the sides would be the same width,wouldn't they?Like I said, I'm a rookie, so if someone would show me where my thinkingis'off', I would appreciate it. I need a perspective reorientation!Thanks,Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Wed Mar 17 15:59:15 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTPLevel 310) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:57:29 EST Subject: Re: crappie taper Incidentally the Martha Marie is included in Wayne's bk as a 5wt, and alsoin George Maurer's bk. It's a great taper, will throw quite a bit of line(70'+), and I use it regularly. (For me, it would be a bit too much rod --Bob. At 11:49 PM 3/16/99 EST, you wrote:I remember the PHY Martha Marie (7'6" 5/6) is touted as a great bluegillrodin the old Paul Young catalogs. I think the taper is in the online hexrodarchive. Rob Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from fiveside@net-gate.com Wed Mar 17 18:09:22 1999 (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29739 for ;Wed, 17 Mar 1999 Subject: Gehrke To the List.It's probably too late, but it is possible that all the negative commentsgenerated by us as makers could be used by someone like Gehrke in hisadvertising copy to strengthen his position whatever that may eventuallyturn out to be. Erin g' bragh. Bill from mrj@aa.net Wed Mar 17 22:02:17 1999 Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:02:13 -0800 Subject: RE: Measurements ?try to think of just how you would accurately measure this. you can't useamic because you have no surface to draw up on. A scale well...I mean, youcould use a scale, but you could be off by easily 20 thou or so. I supposeyou could use a really expensive scale and a microscope but that is waytoohard. I bet it could be done with a laser but I don't have one. It is simplyeasier to use a dial indicator with the 60 degree point. At most you are off thedimensions are when you are done planing. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu shafferSent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 10:34 AM Subject: Measurements Guys,Being a rookie, I've missed something along the line here during the manyposts referring to measuring the depth along the planing form.I was wondering why, if the forms are made accurately to produce the 60degree angle required for a hex rod, isn't it possible to measure from oneside of the form to the other at the top edge of the groove and use thismeasurement for the width of the individual pieces. Using the 60 degreeangles would mean that from the end view you would be creating anequilateral triangle and therefore all the sides would be the same width,wouldn't they?Like I said, I'm a rookie, so if someone would show me where mythinking is'off', I would appreciate it. I need a perspective reorientation!Thanks,Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from plipton@wrtsun02.svidaho.net Wed Mar 17 22:18:55 1999 "Jerry Snider" Subject: Real Seat Stains boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D0_01BE70BB.B7B76F80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01BE70BB.B7B76F80 Harry: Applying potassium dichromate is quite simple. Mine came as a package of=crystals from Wade Garret. There are instruction on how much warmwater =to dissolved it in. I put a pint of it in a glass jar so I could drop =the real seat into the solution. It starts working immediately. After =five minutes, I removed the wood and rinse it in water. Allow it to dry =overnight, sand Lightly to remove the grain that is raised and seal. I =use the same finish that is on my rod. Phil PO Box 389,Sun Valley, ID 83353-0389208-726-9559, 208-622-8585 ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01BE70BB.B7B76F80 =FF=FE=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00=00=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00H=00a=00r=00r=00y=00:=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00=00=0D==00=0A==00=00=00A=00p=00p=00l=00y=00i=00n=00g=00 ==00p=00o=00t=00a=00s=00s=00i=00u=00m=00 ==00d=00i=00c=00h=00r=00o=00m=00a=00t=00e=00 =00i=00s=00 ==00q=00u=00i=00t=00e=00 =00s=00i=00m=00p=00l=00e=00.=00 ==00M=00i=00n=00e=00 =00c=00a=00m=00e=00 =00a=00s=00 =00a=00=00=0D=00=0A==00p=00a=00c=00k=00a=00g=00e=00 =00o=00f=00 ==00c=00r=00y=00s=00t=00a=00l=00s=00 =00f=00r=00o=00m=00 ==00W=00a=00d=00e=00 =00G=00a=00r=00r=00e=00t=00.=00 ==00T=00h=00e=00r=00e=00 =00a=00r=00e=00 ==00i=00n=00s=00t=00r=00u=00c=00t=00i=00o=00n=00 =00o=00n=00 ==00h=00o=00w=00 =00m=00u=00c=00h=00 =00w=00a=00r=00m=00=00=0D=00=0A==00w=00a=00t=00e=00r=00 =00t=00o=00 ==00d=00i=00s=00s=00o=00l=00v=00e=00d=00 =00i=00t=00=00i=00n=00.=00 ==00I=00 =00p=00u=00t=00 =00a=00 =00p=00i=00n=00t=00 =00o=00f=00 ==00i=00t=00 =00i=00n=00 =00a=00 =00g=00l=00a=00s=00s=00=00j=00a=00r=00 ==00s=00o=00 =00I=00 =00c=00o=00u=00l=00d=00 =00d=00r=00o=00p=00==00t=00h=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00r=00e=00a=00l=00 =00s=00e=00a=00t=00 =00i=00n=00t=00o=00 ==00t=00h=00e=00 =00s=00o=00l=00u=00t=00i=00o=00n=00.=00=00I=00t=00 ==00s=00t=00a=00r=00t=00s=00 =00w=00o=00r=00k=00i=00n=00g=00 ==00i=00m=00m=00e=00d=00i=00a=00t=00e=00l=00y=00.=00 ==00A=00f=00t=00e=00r=00 =00f=00i=00v=00e=00 ==00m=00i=00n=00u=00t=00e=00s=00,=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00I=00 =00r=00e=00m=00o=00v=00e=00d=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00w=00o=00o=00d=00 =00a=00n=00d=00 =00r=00i=00n=00s=00e=00=00i=00t=00 ==00i=00n=00 =00w=00a=00t=00e=00r=00.=00 =00A=00l=00l=00o=00w=00==00i=00t=00 =00t=00o=00 =00d=00r=00y=00 ==00o=00v=00e=00r=00n=00i=00g=00h=00t=00,=00 =00s=00a=00n=00d=00=00=0D=00=0A==00L=00i=00g=00h=00t=00l=00y=00 =00t=00o=00=00r=00e=00m=00o=00v=00e=00 ==00t=00h=00e=00 =00g=00r=00a=00i=00n=00 =00t=00h=00a=00t=00=00i=00s=00 ==00r=00a=00i=00s=00e=00d=00 =00a=00n=00d=00=00s=00e=00a=00l=00.=00 ==00I=00 =00u=00s=00e=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00s=00a=00m=00e=00 ==00f=00i=00n=00i=00s=00h=00 =00t=00h=00a=00t=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00i=00s=00 =00o=00n=00 =00m=00y=00 ==00r=00o=00d=00.=00=00=00=0D==00=0A==00=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00=00=0D==00=0A==00=00=00P=00h=00i=00l=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00=00=0D==00=0A==00=00=00P=00h=00i=00l=00i=00p=00 ==00L=00i=00p=00t=00o=00n=00,=00 =00=00m=00a==00i=00l=00t=00o=00:=00p=00l=00i=00p=00t=00o=00n=00@=00s=00v=00i=00d=00a=00=h=00o=00.=00n=00e=00t=00=00=00P=00O=00 ==00B=00o=00x=00 =00=0D=00=0A==003=008=009=00,=00S=00u=00n=00 =00V=00a=00l=00l=00e=00y=00,=00==00I=00D=00 ==008=003=003=005=003=00- =000=003=008=009=00=002=000=008=00-=00=7=002=006=00- =009=005=005=009=00,=00 =00=0D=00=0A==002=000=008=00- =006=002=002=00- =008=005=008=005=00=00=00=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00------ =_NextPart_000_00D0_01BE70BB.B7B76F80-- from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Mar 18 06:06:35 1999 Subject: RE: Real Seat Stains boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7105.8888E280" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7105.8888E280 "Classic Finishing Techniques" by Sam Allen (available for about $12 at =amazon.com) has 20 pages of natural (real) staining information =including a technique called "fuming" that could be used on cane if you =have a lifetime to experiment. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7105.8888E280 "Classic Finishing Techniques" by Sam = (real) staining information including a technique called = experiment. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7105.8888E280-- from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Mar 18 07:42:22 1999 Subject: Hand planes- help needed. It is my understanding that the Stanley #9 1/2 block plane is the tool ofchoice for planing the bamboo strips: however, I also understand that onecosts an arm and a leg.I do have a Stanley #60 1/2 block plane, as well as a couple of Baileystyleplanes (#3 and 4).My concern is what can I use as a substitute for the #9 1/2 Stanley? Anyhelp would be mucho appreciated!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Mar 18 08:35:05 1999 Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:34:12 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Hand planes- help needed. On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, michael w. shaffer wrote: It is my understanding that the Stanley #9 1/2 block plane is the tool ofchoice for planing the bamboo strips: however, I also understand that onecosts an arm and a leg.I do have a Stanley #60 1/2 block plane, as well as a couple of Baileystyleplanes (#3 and 4).My concern is what can I use as a substitute for the #9 1/2 Stanley? Anyhelp would be mucho appreciated!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) I've used a 60-1/2 for most of the rods I've made and a while back boughta 9-1/2. The 9-1/2 is the best choice if you have to go buy a plane butit's a close thing between the two if you don't try removing too much caneon each stroke and keep the throat opening very fine or you'll get a bitof tear out with the 60-1/2.Just keep the plane iron v sharp in either case. Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rmoon@ida.net Thu Mar 18 08:38:46 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Hand planes- help needed. MikeA Stanley 9 1/2 can be had for something between $35-$50. Next to yourplaning form it is the most important part of your tooling. Don't Scimphere! Go beg borrow buy or steal one. It is worthevery cent.Ralph from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Mar 18 09:08:01 1999 Subject: Hand Planes-Help-Thank you I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my inquiry about theStanley planes! I've located a source and will be looking at both theStanley and the Record versions. My understanding is that the Records arethe best vs the 'new' Stanleys. I never mind spending good money on goodtools, but never good money on bad tools! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from bunyips@yahoo.com Thu Mar 18 12:54:02 1999 Subject: looking for sources for form building tools I'm working on building a set of planing forms, but I needto find a source for the 60 deg threading tool to cut thegroove. The local hardware shops don't seem to stock metalworking tools, would anyone know a location and part numberwhere I can order one? I have a dial indicator made by Federal, does anyone know ifthe 60deg contact points starrett sells will fit it? Speakingof contact points, the http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/supp.htmlwebsite lists the starrett part number as PT06632/6. I checked the MSC catalog, but they only seem to have the PT06632 #5 point,will the #5 work? Thanks,Rob _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from mevans@acxiom.com Thu Mar 18 13:37:37 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: looking for sources for form building tools Robert,Give a Dimension Tool Company in Conway Arkansas a call at (501) 327-5649. I've been aregular in there lately. I've shown them an assembled metal form prior tocutting thegroove. These guys stock Starret, Mitutoyo, etc., at lower prices that Iusually find fromother suppliers. They have lathe bits and most of what you need in stock.(e.g. good 60*checks for about $4 compared to $12 for the Starret). I don't have part numbers but I've discussed all of the issues youmentioned in your notewith them so you'll probably get some decent help and good prices. Mention my name and theymake the connection to rod making. (Be patient with them, they are truegood ol boys fromArkansas in every sense - sep they don't do interns.). Good luck!Mark ----------From: Robert Altenburg [SMTP:bunyips@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: looking for sources for form building tools I'm working on building a set of planing forms, but I needto find a source for the 60 deg threading tool to cut thegroove. The local hardware shops don't seem to stock metalworking tools, would anyone know a location and part numberwhere I can order one? I have a dial indicator made by Federal, does anyone know ifthe 60deg contact points starrett sells will fit it? Speakingof contact points, the http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/supp.html website lists the starrett part number as PT06632/6. I checked the MSC catalog, but they only seem to have the PT06632 #5 point,will the #5 work? Thanks,Rob _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from briansr@point-net.com Thu Mar 18 13:56:14 1999 0000 Subject: WARNING!!! DO NOT BREATH THE FUMES from GINK!!!!Go to ROFF and read this idiotspost"the colour of cane" I particularly liked the part about building frominferior culms of cane!!!Apparently Crayola got a call from Geo. and askedthem if they'd like some flamed-cane carbon for their pencils!Cheers Brian from sonners2@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 18 14:57:49 1999 61-191.gso.bellsouth.net Thu, 18 Mar 199915:54:02 -0500 "Allan and Shirley Miller (E-mail)" ,"Allan and Shirley Miller (E-mail)" ,"Anthony & Mysti Sonner (E-mail)" ,"Anthony Hipps (E-mail)" ,"Bill Snow (E-mail)" "Clarence W. Rothrock (E-mail)" ,"Dave Engerbretson (E-mail)" ,"Debra Anderson (E-mail)" ,"Derek Brown (E-mail)" ,"FF@ (E-mail)" "George Moody (E-mail)","Greg Parkhurst (E-mail)","Heyward Wagner (E- mail)","Jeff Hatcher (E-mail)","Jim Brady (E-mail)" "Joe Nelson (E-mail)","Joe Nelson (E-mail 2)","Katharine Cannon (E- mail)","Katharine Cannon (E-mail 2)","Linda Heller (E-mail)" "Mary meadows (E-mail)" ,"Michael Johnson (E-mail)" ,"Michael Parillo (E-mail)" ,"Paul Grantham (E-mail)" ,"Paul Grantham (E-mail 2)" "Ron Greene (E-mail)","Russ Sciandra (E-mail)","Sara Bourquin (E- mail)","Shamika Jones (E-mail)","Steve Moize (E-mail)" "Tri-Fly (E-mail)","Tri-Fly Admin (E-mail)","Trout Ulimited News (E-mail)","TU Lines to Leaders (E-mail)","Wayne Clodfelter (E-mail)" Subject: please read this before any of my other messages. Ok everybody, before you all attack at once. I did not intentionally SPAMall of my friends.Here is the real story regarding the empty e mail that you recieved withjust my sig line.Usually when people forward me something I copy it and then paste it on ablank page to avoidreams and reams of forwarding messages. I recieved a message that wasabout a new virusonline. I really just wanted to warn everyone. so I copied it and meant topaste it andsend it to all of you. I must have gotten distracted or made an error. Because you guysdidn't get the pasted portion of my email I am so Sorry. I wouldn'tintentionally use myfriends in this manner. And I appologize if you think I would. this is a pitfall to having an automatic sig line. I do have a business that Iwould like topromote. But all of you know that because you are in my life. These siglines are really forother correspondance that I do. And it is easier just to leave theautomatic sig line on.many of you use servers or whatever that do the same thing. again Iappologize for myoffense. and thank you to those who pointed it out. ****************************************************************************************************Don't forget your dad. It's time to gear up for Spring Fishing and withFather's Day aroundthe corner, He could REEL-Y use some new equipment.ARC Outfitters we are "Fly Fishing Outfitters for the World." http://WWW.Triadwebhosting.com/ARC/**************************************************************************************************** from rambo2_98@yahoo.com Thu Mar 18 14:59:21 1999 1999 13:01:50 PST Subject: Re: looking for sources for form building tools Rob: Regarding the Starrett 60* point, the part number is PTO6632/6 (EDPNo. 70794). I ordered mine from MSC and they didn't stock it, so itwas drop-shipped from Starrett. I haven't a clue what the #5 is, but from the picture in my Starrett catalog it isn't even close to 60*. Jeff ---Robert Altenburg wrote: I'm working on building a set of planing forms, but I needto find a source for the 60 deg threading tool to cut thegroove. The local hardware shops don't seem to stock metalworking tools, would anyone know a location and part numberwhere I can order one? I have a dial indicator made by Federal, does anyone know ifthe 60deg contact points starrett sells will fit it? Speakingof contact points, the http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/supp.htmlwebsite lists the starrett part number as PT06632/6. I checked the MSC catalog, but they only seem to have the PT06632 #5 point,will the #5 work? Thanks,Rob _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Mar 18 15:51:00 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: looking for sources for form building tools In a message dated 3/18/99 6:56:38 PM, bunyips@yahoo.com wrote: Rob - You need to find an Industrial supply house. If you live in an areawhere there are any tool and die shops, there will be one. If not, TryTraversTool in NYC, or MSC, which I think is nationwide. The part is a simple lathecutting tool, which will be cheap. Basically, they are just a 1/4" squarebarwith a 60 degree point on one end. Sometimes the point is a carbide insert.Iwould also suggest that you set up a triangle file cutter as described inTomPenrose's web site, as you will most likely need it to smooth out thegroove. from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Mar 18 16:44:33 1999 Subject: Tools for building forms-- Rob,Here are two sources to try: MSC--1-800-645-7270 Nolan Supply--1-800-721-4685 Hope this is of help, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Mar 18 20:07:49 1999 Subject: RE: Reel Seat Stains boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7178.D74FD4A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7178.D74FD4A0 Is "fuming" the technique utilizing ammonia that many rodmakers refer to=asbrowntoning? Bill Lamberson Apparently so; though I haven't heard the term "browntoning" before. = In his book Allen shows a tent make of poly sheeting confining ammonia =gas from containers of ammonium hydroxide solution. The method darkens=tannins, which may be applied separately to tannin-deficient woods, in =24 hours. He states that the gas will even penetrate finishes. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7178.D74FD4A0 Is "fuming" the technique utilizing ammonia that many = refer to asbrowntoning?Bill Lamberson Apparently so; though I haven't heard the term = In his book Allen shows a tent make of poly sheeting confining = darkens = tannins, which may be applied separately to tannin-deficient woods, in = finishes. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7178.D74FD4A0-- from gaff@carol.net Thu Mar 18 21:16:19 1999 Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:16:12 -0500 Subject: Re: looking for sources for form building tools mevans - Mark Evans wrote: Robert,Give a Dimension Tool Company in Conway Arkansas a call at (501) 327-5649. I've been aregular in there lately. I've shown them an assembled metal form prior tocutting thegroove. These guys stock Starret, Mitutoyo, etc., at lower prices that Iusually find fromother suppliers. They have lathe bits and most of what you need in stock.(e.g. good 60*checks for about $4 compared to $12 for the Starret). I don't have part numbers but I've discussed all of the issues youmentioned in your notewith them so you'll probably get some decent help and good prices. Mention my name and theymake the connection to rod making. (Be patient with them, they are truegood ol boys fromArkansas in every sense - sep they don't do interns.). Good luck!Mark ----------From: Robert Altenburg [SMTP:bunyips@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: looking for sources for form building tools I'm working on building a set of planing forms, but I needto find a source for the 60 deg threading tool to cut thegroove. The local hardware shops don't seem to stock metalworking tools, would anyone know a location and part numberwhere I can order one? I have a dial indicator made by Federal, does anyone know ifthe 60deg contact points starrett sells will fit it? Speakingof contact points, the http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/supp.html website lists the starrett part number as PT06632/6. I checkedthe MSC catalog, but they only seem to have the PT06632 #5 point,will the #5 work? Thanks,Rob _________________________________________________________DO YOU YAHOO!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com mark,thanks for the tip. i called dorthy at dimension tool and ordered the60* lathe tool, only $4.22 for the carbide tipped E-8 (1/2" shaft).you were correct when you stated that they were nice folks. they bentover backwards to assist this newbie that wasn't sure what he wanted.thanks again,wil from jwilcox@netsync.net Thu Mar 18 22:18:53 1999 Subject: hand planes boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE7195.C32C9FE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE7195.C32C9FE0 guys, i'v told others about lie-nielsen's new 20 degree 9 1/2 block =plane. this plane is an absolute gem! yes, it's expensive, but it fits =your hand like a glove. rocking and tipping as you plane is nearly =non-existent. it's much easier to plane with than either a stanley or a =record(i have both). try one. you'll never regret the investment. jim =wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE7195.C32C9FE0 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE7195.C32C9FE0-- from OBorge@aiss.uic.edu Fri Mar 19 06:40:24 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: WARNING!!! ROFF is an open list. If I wanted read what George G. thought I wouldsubscribe.In fact I unsubscribed from ROFF years ago so I wouldn't have to hearit.I suggest the people who want to keep up with Mr. G. Subscribe to ROFF.I usually delete the messages that refer to GINK. But I opened this bymistake. Sorry for the whine. Olaf BorgeSystems Programmer/System SoftwareUniversity of Illinois/AISS/CNO312/996-5212 -----Original Message-----From: Brian Sturrock [SMTP:briansr@point- net.com]Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: WARNING!!! DO NOT BREATH THE FUMES from GINK!!!!Go to ROFF and read this idiotspost"the colour of cane" I particularly liked the part about building frominferior culms of cane!!!Apparently Crayola got a call from Geo. andaskedthem if they'd like some flamed-cane carbon for their pencils!Cheers Brian from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Mar 19 08:14:27 1999 Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:14:10 -0500 Subject: Re: hand planes =_NextPart_000_01BE71E8.9A7BAB60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE71E8.9A7BAB60 Jim is dead on the money about the little Lie-Nielsen planes. A lot of ourmoney and worry is wasted on high-tech "overkill" in this pursuit of ours, butthere is one indispensable tool which, in a sense, does all the work. Thatis the plane itself. Here, if nowhere else, you need the very best andmust not scrimp or cut corners. The Stanley planes are perfect for hogging off the bulk of the cane . Infact, any of the Stanley wannabes are equally useful for this -- and a good iron ismore important than the plane anyhow. But when it is time to shave thelast ten-thousandths down to the surface of the form, you need theprecisecontrol and feel that only a truly fine plane can provide. Yes, theLie-Nielsen is pricey, but this above everything else, is not the place topinch your pennies. The difference between the little Lie-Nielsen and aStanley is like the difference between a new BMW and an old Chevy Suburban. You won't know 'till you try. (No interest in product or manufacturer). Cheers, Bill---------- Subject: hand planes guys, i'v told others about lie-nielsen's new 20 degree 9 1/2 block plane.this plane is an absolute gem! yes, it's expensive, but it fits your handlike a glove. rocking and tipping as you plane is nearly non-existent. it's much easier to plane with than either a stanley or a record(i haveboth). try one. you'll never regret the investment. jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_01BE71E8.9A7BAB60 Jim is dead on the money = of ours, but there is one indispensable tool which, in a sense, does all = you need the very best and must not scrimp or cut corners. = useful for this -- and a good iron is more important than the plane = ten-thousandths down to the surface of the form, you need the precise = little Lie-Nielsen and a Stanley is like the difference between a = try.(No interest in product or manufacturer).Cheers, =Bill----------From: James Wilcox = =18, 1999 8:19 PMguys, = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE71E8.9A7BAB60-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Mar 19 09:42:16 1999 Subject: Lie-Neilson Block Plane What would be the difference between using the 20* block plane and thelowangle adjustable mouth plane besides the adjustable mouth? Of those thathave the Lie-Neilson, how may have the adjustable throat model? On themodel without the adjustable throat, how small is the opening? Assumingprice didn't matter and you could have only one (in addition to a Record orStanley) which one would you buy? Brian from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Fri Mar 19 12:26:08 1999 Subject: Garrison 212 or 212E I am in the process of building my first bamboo flyrod... I am tryingto decide between a Garrison 212 or 212E taper. The power fibers on theone culmn that was given to me are exceptional @ ~0.200". I would havefollowed the advice of many builders and started with a lower gradeculmn, but I only have the one culmn. Anyway, I have a few questionsbefore I start final planing the 18 strips that are each 53"-55" inlength. 1) I am planing a trip to the big hole for mid July, and want to knowif either of these rods are a good choice for big tailwater nymphing anddryfly presentation. If so, should I modify one tip for drys and theother for nymphs, or just go with the standard tip? (other rod tapersuggestions?) 2) What is the difference between the action of a 212 and 212E. Is onemore suitable for drys and the other nymphs?Will they both cast a 6wt DTF line equally well? 3) I am curious to know what effect my flaming the cane will have. Ihave flamed the cane, and suspect that the additional tempering willproduce a stiffer rod action, perhaps affecting the presentation ofdrys. I noticed that Everett Garrison's instructions are for a blondrod. 4) When do I cut my strips down to the final 48" length? Does itmatter? Can I take some from the top and the bottom of each strip toavoid a bad node or a non- equilateral triangle or two during the finalplaning, or is recommended that I wait until the strips have beenglued. At some point, I assume that if you cut or not cut, that youmust decide where you will cut before getting to the final taper. Howdo some of you manage this? I plan to use URAC 185 to glue the strips (I would prefer resourcinol,but can't find a source- help would definately be appreciated.) Willthe lighter colored URAC 185 show up as a contrast with the flamed cane,or will it be less noticeable than resourcinol? To tell the truth, Iwish that I could find resourcinol, since I like the purple lines (Iwill use the alcohol per Garrison), and from what I have read so far(and I am just beginning)- there is no better... Besides, I would liketo stay with tradition with my first rod. Best Regards, Paul MartinoKalispell, Montana from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Mar 19 15:27:58 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Garrison 212 or 212E In a message dated 3/19/99 6:33:04 PM, pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us wrote: Paul - All the responses below are one person's opinion, and should betakenaccordingly, in other words IMHO. 1. This being your first rod, I would stick to the taper as designed. The212/212E is a great rod, either taper is a 6 weight. 2. Given that you are fishing big water, I would go with the 212E 3. Flaming may make the rod a bit stiffer, but the taper is the key element.Build the flamed rod if that is what you like. 4. Glue up the sticks before you cut to finish length. Lots of things canaffect your tolerances, and you may be happy to have some leeway if yourdimensions end up a bit off. 5. Personally, I think that Urac makes a slightly stiffer rod. You won't haveany color trouble if your seams are good. Resourcinol is widely availablefromhardware, paint, boating, and lumber stores. You should be able to find itlocally.Either will make you a fine rod. What I am trying to tell you is don't worry about the fine points on yourfirst rod. You have a lot to learn, and you can only learn it by doing. Fornow, worry about splitting, working the nodes, and accurate planing. Youcanstart refining technique after you learn to handle the material. from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Mar 19 18:46:04 1999 sherman.shentel.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA22223; "HARMS1@prodigy.net" boundary="_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862672=_=_=_"Subject: Re: hand planes --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862672=_=_=_ Bill I agree on knowing where to spend your money - however I wouldrecommend thatpeople start first with their Final Forms. I have one of the new planes andused it - now allI wantis a Hock blade for it - I did not care for the stock one as much as I do forthe Hocks.However,without a good form your are just . . . . P.S. I will now take the Old Suburban over the BMW (I once had a M5)because it willget mewhere I need to go fishing which is far from the Interstate / Autobahn. Chris --Original Message Text--- Jim is dead on the money about the little Lie-Nielsen planes. A lot of ourmoney and worry is wasted on high-tech "overkill" in this pursuit of ours, butthere is oneindispensable tool which, in a sense, does all the work. That is the plane itself. Here, if nowhere else, youneed the very bestand must not scrimp or cut corners. The Stanley planes are perfect for hogging off the bulk of the cane . Infact, any of the Stanley wannabes are equally useful for this -- and a good iron ismore important thanthe plane anyhow. But when it is time to shave the last ten-thousandths down to the surface of theform, you need theprecise control and feel that only a truly fine plane can provide. Yes, the Lie-Nielsen is pricey, but this aboveeverythingelse, is not the place to pinch your pennies. The difference between the little Lie-Nielsen and a Stanley islike the differencebetween a new BMW and an old Chevy Suburban. You won't know 'till you try. (No interest in product or manufacturer). Cheers, Bill---------- Subject: hand planes guys, i'v told others about lie-nielsen's new 20 degree 9 1/2 block plane. this plane is anabsolute gem! yes, it's expensive, but it fits your hand like a glove. rocking and tipping as you plane is nearlynon-existent.it's much easier to plane with than either a stanley or a record(i have both). try one. you'll never regret theinvestment.jim wilcox Regards Chris --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862672=_=_=_ Bill I agree on knowing where to spend your money - however I wouldrecommend thatpeople start first with their Final Forms. I have one of the new planes andused it - now allI wantis a Hock blade for it - I did not care for the stock one as much as I do forthe Hocks.However,without a good form your are just . . . . P.S. I will now take the Old Suburban over the BMW (I once had a M5)because it will getmewhere I need to go fishing which is far from the Interstate /Autobahn. Chris --Original Message Text---From: WILLIAM A HARMSDate: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:12:25 -0800 Jim is dead on the money about the little Lie-Nielsenplanes. A lot of ourmoney and worry is wasted on high-tech "overkill" in this pursuit of ours, butthere is oneindispensable tool which, in a sense, does all the work. That is the planeitself. Here, ifnowhere else, you need the very best and must not scrimp or cut corners. The Stanley planes are perfect for hogging off the bulk of the cane . Infact, any of the Stanley wannabes are equally useful for this -- and a good iron ismore important thanthe plane anyhow. But when it is time to shave the last ten-thousandthsdown to the surfaceof the form, you need the precise control and feel that only a truly fineplane can provide.Yes, the Lie-Nielsen is pricey, but this above everything else, isnot the place topinch your pennies. The difference between the little Lie-Nielsen and aStanley is like thedifference between a new BMW and an old Chevy Suburban. You won't know 'till you try. (No interest in product or manufacturer). Cheers, Bill---------- Subject: hand planes guys, i'v told others aboutlie-nielsen's new 20degree 9 1/2 block plane. this plane is an absolute gem! yes, it'sexpensive, but it fitsyour hand like a glove. rocking and tipping as you plane is nearly non-existent. it's mucheasier to plane with than either a stanley or a record(i have both). try one. you'll neverregret the investment. jim wilcox --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862672=_=_=_-- from Turbotrk@aol.com Fri Mar 19 21:07:00 1999 Subject: test this is only a test of my email which is non exsistant. from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Fri Mar 19 21:50:01 1999 with ESMTP id ;Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:49:28 +0000 Subject: Re: test I hear you!! Dennis Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: this is only a test of my email which is non exsistant. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Mar 19 22:08:20 1999 Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:05:22 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Lie-Neilson Block Plane On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Thoman, Brian wrote: What would be the difference between using the 20* block plane and thelowangle adjustable mouth plane besides the adjustable mouth? Of thosethathave the Lie-Neilson, how may have the adjustable throat model? On themodel without the adjustable throat, how small is the opening? Assumingprice didn't matter and you could have only one (in addition to a RecordorStanley) which one would you buy? Brian Besides the dif in iron angle of attack the adjustable mouth is veryimportant and is one reason the various adjustable mouth planes will allwork, some better than others.When a plane takes a cut the material being cut wants to splinter alongthe length of the material particualy in the case of a low angle plane (orchisel for eg.) by keeping the mouth close to the edge of the iron thespliner gets lifted by the iron but it's broken by the mouth so becomes acurled shaving and dosn't splinter along the length of the material beingplaned. Imagine pushing a chisel at the same angle, the material willsplit until you adjust the angle of attack. The important thing to remember is you need to adjust the mouth openingrelative to the depth of the cut, a closed mouth with a deep cut clogs upand a wide opening with a shallow cut splits and tears the cane, I thinkthis is one reason the 60-1/2 gives people trouble. You can't take thedepth of cut with it you can with the 9-1/2 as the angle of the iron islower so the tendency to split is greater if the mouth is opened enough toallow the chips to clear on a deeper cut. If the mouth is closed up youneed to reduce the depth of cut so the process is slower, however it has resistance than the 9- 1/2 during the cut and IMHO should be better for planing nodes if properly adjusted. I could be wrong here as I makenodeless rods so I'm only guessing. The difference between the brands of plane comes down to personal prefandlike getting a good hammer or saw that's important. If you like the planeyou use you'll use it more and have a better regard for it and probsharpen the iron more often so you'll do better work. As for the LN, if you like it buy it. I certainly would if I could onlyfind the $300 it'd cost right now here in Australia. Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from jwilcox@netsync.net Fri Mar 19 22:42:32 1999 Subject: planes boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE7262.3D921D60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE7262.3D921D60 brian and others: i actually use two lie-nielsen planes for my cane work. i use =their new adjustable mouth 9 1/2 bedded at 20 degrees. i have a 50 =micro-bevel on the blade. i use this plane for the bulk of the planing. =i use a lie-nielsen #103sp , also bedded at 20 degrees for the final =thousandth or so. i have a 50 degree micro-bevel on this blade as well. =this plane is especially nice in the hand for those last few passes =over the strips. it is particularly useful when planing tips. you get =a nice feel with this little guy. you can easily feel the blade when it =is on the steel and no longer cutting cane. the #103 sp comes with =interchangeable throat plates. you can change the plates to get the =adjustment that you find necessary for you particular need. as i said =before, these planes are not cheap, but i think the ease of planing they =afford justifies the cost. = while i'm on the topic of planing(this is more for those newer to =bamboo rodmaking) when you think your blade might be dull, it probably =is. you can't plane acccurately with a dull blade. it only takes a =couple minutes to touch up the edge and bring it back to a razor sharp =instrument. we all get sloppy from time to time and we dull our blades. =hitting the steel once is enough to make a difference. stop! resharpen =the blade. you're willing to spend 60-70 hours or more to build the rod =in the first place. a few extra minutes sharpening a plane blade is = ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE7262.3D921D60 brian and =others: use = you can easily feel the blade when it is on the steel and no longer = you can change the plates to get the adjustment that you find necessary = the ease of planing they afford justifies the = while i'm on the topic of planing(this is more for those newer to bamboo = rodmaking) when you think your blade might be dull, it probably = to touch up the edge and bring it back to a razor sharp = willing to spend 60-70 hours or more to build the rod in the first = a few extra minutes sharpening a plane blade is nothing compared to ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE7262.3D921D60-- from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 20 01:12:07 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id UAA10834 for ;Sat, 20 Mar 199920:11:29 +1300 Subject: southern hemisphere gathering Well.. We have three starters so far , and at least one maybe. Tony is right of course. The fishing is better in New Zealand thenAustralia.[ :))] For those " thinking" about it the NZ dollar is presentlyalmosthalf the value of the US dollar. This means you can use $53 of thosegreenbacks to pay a $100 new zealand account. ( Sorry about that to theCanadians , we know how you feel) Similarily the European currencies arevery strong against the $NZ.Costs down here are a little dearer in straight dollar terms ie beforemaking the exchange adjustment. A motel is around $65 to $100 a night innzdollars , but normally they have kitchens and sleep 2 - 4. A campervan isprobably a better bet as it gives the ability to pull up in camping groundsand access points beside rivers. I can check the price of those , they areseasonal and less expensive in the off season. Most rivers in New Zealandhave free access and many run alongside roads. There are also manycampinggrounds which are quite cheap, and there are also flash fishing lodges at$500- $800 per night Timing depends on when people are available to travel. November isprobablybettertrout fishing , but no salmon fishing. Salmon are probably not the best forbamboo rods anyway . Weather can be a problem ( I regret to admit) withwindsometimes being a problem in October/November but dry weather and lowwaterflows sometimes being a problem in Febuary / March. The fishing inwinter isgreat in places like Taupo , if you do not mind lure fishing with ice on thelines , but most other areas of New Zealand have closed seasons at thattime. This makes linking with the Olympics a little difficult . In balance October/November is probably the best fishing, but any timethrough to end of April is pretty good. from my biased point of view Ibelieve the top of the South island has the best fishing , about 30 riverswithin 2 hours of home , and would be happy to organise something in thisarea. ie Nelson. Also happy to suggest travelling routes and rivers foranyone who is looking to do a tour. If anyone is interested contact me direct and we will see what we canorganise. regards Iank from RZBG79A@prodigy.com Sat Mar 20 09:47:05 1999 KAA17060 forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:41:48 - 0500 Subject: planes While we are talking about planes, How about the Rali 105?Does anyone have any experience with this plane? There was an article in the Planing Form awhile back regarding this plane .Craig from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Mar 20 10:30:31 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: planes In a message dated 3/20/99 3:50:47 PM, RZBG79A@prodigy.com wrote: Craig - I still like the Rali. It does a nice job on cane, and has littletendency to tear out nodes. About the only negative is that the really fineadjustments for finish planing are tricky. One of the standard block planesisprobably better for this work. I am now able to hone the Rali blades on my leather wheel set up, and get alot more use out of them. Before I started doing that I found I could expect6strips per edge before the blade dulled. I think an experienced builder will be happier with one of the traditionalplanes, but a newbie without experience with sharpening technique mightconsider the Rali. from schanze@ibm.net Sat Mar 20 12:40:04 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA40758 for ;Sat, 20 Mar 199918:39:57 GMT Subject: Smithwick Binder I would like to build a Smithwick Binder but am having trouble findingthe parts. Where is a good source for the wheels used as the drives?Is there any place in the Northern Va area that would carry them? Also,does anyone happen to know of a source for 1/4 inch brass rods? I havetried all the hardware stores nearby. Thanks in advance for any help.Steve Schanzer from espy@us.hsanet.net Sat Mar 20 14:20:54 1999 Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BE72E4.B38C9F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BE72E4.B38C9F40 UNSUBSCRIBE espy@us.hsanet.net ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BE72E4.B38C9F40 UNSUBSCRIBE espy@us.hsanet.net ------=_NextPart_000_00B4_01BE72E4.B38C9F40-- from espy@us.hsanet.net Sat Mar 20 14:20:55 1999 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE72E4.5E4D8080" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE72E4.5E4D8080 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE72E4.5E4D8080 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BE72E4.5E4D8080-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Mar 20 16:03:04 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Smithwick Binder In a message dated 3/20/99 6:46:16 PM, schanze@ibm.net wrote: Steve - I used standard machine pulleys on the original, I would think anywell stocked hardware store or home center would have them. 1/4" brass rod is a standard product, it should be available from a metalservice center. You might also find it available from a hobby shop. from jkallo@midwest.net Sat Mar 20 20:46:09 1999 Subject: Tape and Binding Hello all, I just walked in from binding an 8.5' version on Wayne's "Force." I decidedto take Sir D's suggestion concerning binding over the strips of maskingtape used to hold the strips together while applying glue, and the resultswere superb. The tape seems to hold the strips in place and keep twists from forming-my straightening time was easily cut in half. For those ofusstill winding the dental floss by hand, this is a real boon as time is at apremium as it is. Thought I'd pass along the info as well as copious thanksto Darryl. Best,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Mar 20 20:55:52 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sat, Subject: Whacking technique I can't remember who recently suggested whacking a freshly glued blanktostraighten it but many thanks are in order. For my first rod, I rolled withboth hands, used a roller, used a flat piece of glass, chased bends down theblank pool cue-like, etc. With this last one, I held it by the butt andwhacked it down on a flat surface. I whacked it six times, once on eachface. The resulting tip and butt are arrow straight. All told, it took maybe5 minutes per section. Many thanks to the inventor of this technique for passing on the info. Richard from Finanplanr@aol.com Sun Mar 21 03:29:25 1999 Subject: Renny Greenmun????? Folks, Do any of you happen to know if Renny Greenmun has changed his e- mailaddressor if he has moved? I have his book ready to ship to him but can't seem tocontact him. Any info would be appreciated. Many thanks,Stuart Kirkfield from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun Mar 21 08:46:53 1999 Subject: Binders and rod twisting Another newby question, if you don't mind:I have read and heard that some binders may have a tendency to cause therodto twist during the binding stage after glueing, and because I will bemaking my own binder, could someone enlighten me as to which binderseems tocause the least amount of twist in the rod. Thanks for the help, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from cattanac@wmis.net Sun Mar 21 09:15:48 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) Subject: Re: Binders and rod twisting Doc -There are a couple of issues that deal with binding that can save youtime grief.Perhaps the best is to mount the binder on a L shaped support board - 6'works well - with the binder centered - this allows you to add incomingandoutgoing supports. these supports keep the rod section from bowing to thefloor and the straightening that that would cause. I use 1/2' plywood arms(3 on each side) spaced at 9" from the binder and then every 9" after that -the arms have a 1 1/2" dia arch cut in them and the bottom of the arch hasbeen placed so that it line up with the binder arms both axis. Years ago Ifirst though that I could use PVC pipe split in two - but then I realizedthe contact that would be caused with the glue and the chance of addedtwists that that could cause.To adjust the tensions - 3/4 # for first pass - 1 1/4# for second - oryou might try just the 3/4 # both ways - the binding thread should be setat1 1/4# - you can do this adjustment by attaching the weight to the threadand adjust the tensioner(s) so that the thread weight will just pull threadwhen the weight is touched with the finger.Another insight which has nothing to do with the binder is this - thewire shelf in the oven. If you create an oven with a wire shelf (my designor the air heat version) the shelf need to lay flat. On the sytle I havemade - where the shelf is bent up of hardware cloth - after the shelf is inplace - take a flat board and run it inside the oven and then whack the topsurface of the shelf with it - this will take out any waves or twists thatmight be present. If the oven is used for thermal setting of glue there isthe possibility of the rod section following to the bows or twists of theshelf and unstraight sections can be created. HEY - Best of Luck and Have Fun With This Wayne -----Original Message----- Subject: Binders and rod twisting Another newby question, if you don't mind:I have read and heard that some binders may have a tendency to cause therodto twist during the binding stage after glueing, and because I will bemaking my own binder, could someone enlighten me as to which binderseemstocause the least amount of twist in the rod.Thanks for the help, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from espy@us.hsanet.net Sun Mar 21 11:20:58 1999 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE7394.C5A17740" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE7394.C5A17740 UNSUBSCRIBE List_espy@us.hsanet.net END ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE7394.C5A17740 END ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE7394.C5A17740-- from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Mar 21 11:58:13 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, Subject: RE: Whacking technique I would much prefer if the person who initially suggested whacking wouldstep forth to explain this technique. But, here's what I did: The blank came out of the binder with a bit of a bow. I started by whackingthe side that had the outside of the bow (in other words, if you placed theblank against the workbench, the tip would be raised off the surface). Iheld the blank vertically at the butt section between my thumb and indexfinger. I held the butt against my workbench. Then, I pressed down near thebutt with my free hand and whacked the section against my workbench. Ididn't use a lot of force but it did go down faster than through just theuse of gravity. I then turned the blank to the next flat and repeated it. I wouldn't worry about the tip section since your blank is wrapped whenyouare doing this and I suspect the thread protects the tip. Also, I used URACwhen I did this. I don't know how or if it would work with epoxy. Richard -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Whacking technique Richard Nantel wrote: I can't remember who recently suggested whacking a freshly glued blanktostraighten it but many thanks are in order. For my first rod, I rolledwithboth hands, used a roller, used a flat piece of glass, chased bends downtheblank pool cue-like, etc. With this last one, I held it by the butt andwhacked it down on a flat surface. I whacked it six times, once on eachface. The resulting tip and butt are arrow straight. All told, it tookmaybe5 minutes per section. Many thanks to the inventor of this technique for passing on the info. RichardRichard, could you describe this technique completely for some ofus. It sounds promissing but I cant imagine whacking a tip section inthis manner.I too stuggle with straightening and would be thrilled to getsome help. Thanks, Ed Miller. from robert.kope@cwix.com Sun Mar 21 12:44:58 1999 with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@mail.wustl.edu;Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:44:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bogart's Big Dog Taper boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7388.020856C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7388.020856C0 I want to build a steelhead rod and have the strips rough planed and =tempered. I want a 9 to 9 1/2 ft 8 wt, and was planning on using the =taper from Chris Bogart's Shenandoah Special, but I got to looking at it =and something looks wrong with the stress curve plotted in the taper =archives. The stresses look way too low for the line weight and dimensions of the =rod. In fact, the rod dimensions look more like a 5 or 6 wt to me. I =realize that a weight forward line has far less weight once you get past =the forward section, but to reproduce the stress curve in the taper =archives using Frank Stetzer's hexrod program, I need to reduce the line =length to about 25 feet from the 80 feet shown on the stress curve in =the archives. If you compute the stresses with 80 feet of line, the =stresses go well above 400,000. Have others built and fished this rod? Are stresses this high a problem =or am I too anal about the math? Thanks in advance for any help, Robert Kope ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7388.020856C0 I want to build a steelhead rodand = planning on using the taper from Chris Bogart's Shenandoah Special, but = looking at it and something looks wrong with the stress curve plotted in = taper archives. The stresses look way too low for= weight once you get past the forward section, but to reproduce the = in the taper archives using Frank Stetzer's hexrod program, I need to = line length to about 25 feet from the 80 feet shown on the stress curve = go well above 400,000. high a problem or am I too anal about the math? Thanks in advance for any help, Robert Kope ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE7388.020856C0-- from ballard@orion.wes.army.mil Sun Mar 21 15:54:36 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:59:34 -0600 ; Sun, 21 Mar 99 15:59:20 CST Subject: REC uniferrules Does any have one have any experience using REC's new uniferrules? And how does the weight differ compared toSuper Swiss? Would the weight be different enough tore-do stress curves using Hexrod type programs?Opinions are welcome. Thanks,Jerry Ballard from chris@artistree.com Sun Mar 21 17:18:45 1999 Subject: Re: REC uniferrules mac-creator="4D4F5353" Jerry,I haven't actually weighed them but they seem to weight the same as theSuper Swiss. They might be just a hair bit heavier but IMHO not enoughto effect your stress curve.--Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Jerry Ballard wrote: Does any have one have any experience using REC's newuniferrules? And how does the weight differ compared toSuper Swiss? Would the weight be different enough tore-do stress curves using Hexrod type programs?Opinions are welcome. Thanks,Jerry Ballard from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Mar 21 19:57:58 1999 Subject: Re: REC uniferrules Jerry,I've had quite a bit of experience with REC'S Uniferruleand tell you they are very good. The weight difference isnominal between REC's and Bailey Woods. Give them a try. Dave L. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Mon Mar 22 08:43:14 1999 0500 Subject: taper design I was final planing the tip strips of my Sir D special the othernight,musing over the way the steepness of the taper changes from station tostation - a change in .010 over this five inches, .004 (or so) thenext,etc. - and thinking that our craft has plenty of "how-to" literature,but very little theoretical information on taper design. It seemsthatevery six months or so another book comes out telling you how toplane,glue up, and adorn a blank. The two books I have, Garrison andCattanach, generously give tapers, and tapers can be computed usingseveral software programs freely available. But, apart from a few (tome, rather unintelligible - I don't understand engineer- speak)chaptersin Garrison that address the subject, there doesn't seem to beanythingthat talks about how specific features of a taper produce certaineffects peculiar to that taper. E.G., what effect is created by a.010slope between two stations on a 7' 4 weight rod? What would be thedifference if you switched the positions of the .010 and the .004slopes? How does the placement of the "hinge" effect roll casting,andwhat features of a taper produce a "hinge", and what other performancecharacteristics might be sacrificed or enhanced by producing it? Whatmakes one rod "sweet" and another a "cannon"? I think a well writtenbook on this would be fascinating, although it would likely appealonlyto a very small audience. Maybe by the time I'm 90 I'll have theexperience and expertise to write it. But some of you seem to havethatalready. How about it, Darryl? Wayne? Chris? Or does this kind ofknowledge come under the heading "proprietary secrets?" from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon Mar 22 10:47:31 1999 This may have been listed eariler, if so I didn't see it and apologize inadvance.There is a new reference published by the Smithsonian on AmericanBamboos includinga section on American woody bamboos, and a section on growing bamboos. findingnew taxa to use for building rods, etc., this one should be right up youralley. from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Mon Mar 22 15:18:26 1999 0500 Subject: Drying rack On the next rod I glue up I would like to avoid as much as possible the straightening process. If I can somehow put the freshly glued rod (after perhaps 8 to 12 hours) in a rack or vice of some sort to force it to be straight and without twists, I think once it completely dries I should be able to avoid most of the straightening with the heat gun. On my first rod I sort of did this using my planing forms and rough form on top, but I need something better. Anyone make something like this? Andy from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Mar 22 15:27:41 1999 (5.5.2407.0) "'andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com'" Subject: RE: Drying rack there's a device in ray goulds book that shows something like that. ----------From: andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com[SMTP:andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com] Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 7:30 AM Subject: Drying rack On the next rod I glue up I would like to avoid as much as possible the straightening process. If I can somehow put the freshly glued rod (after perhaps 8 to 12 hours) in a rack or vice of some sort to force it to be straight and without twists, I think once it completely dries I should be able to avoid most of the straightening with the heat gun. On my first rod I sort of did this using my planing forms and rough form on top, but I need something better. Anyone make something like this? Andy from jkallo@midwest.net Mon Mar 22 18:11:50 1999 Subject: Nodeless FAQ Hey, does anyone have a copy of Chris Bogart's FAQ on nodeless technique?The version which appears on the Rodmaker's site looks as if it wasscannedin and is missing key words (sentences?). Its kinda like reading a treasuremap which is washed out right around the area where the treasure islocated. I am especially interested in finding out how much longer thanspec the total length of the pre-spliced strips should be in order to takeaccount of the splices. I know that this depends upon the angle at whichthe splices are cut--I intend to use the Garrison splice block which has a4* angle for the slope on which the strip rests ( I guess I could figure itout myself, but I'd still like a complete copy of the file). Thanks all,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from jfoster@gte.net Mon Mar 22 18:35:23 1999 Subject: Re: Nodeless FAQ mac-creator="4D4F5353" Chris, i don't know if he's flaming you or me? :-) must be a style thing... regards jerry from cbogart@shentel.net Mon Mar 22 20:07:45 1999 out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA68196; Tue, 23 Mar 199902:07:34 GMT "jfoster@gte.net" Subject: Re: Nodeless FAQ Jerry / Joe I have an updated version of the nodeless article as an Acrobatfile. Unfortunately, I am on travel and I do not have it with me. I will bebackin the shop Friday PM. I will post a copy then. Chris On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:33:58 -0800, Jerry Foster wrote: Chris, i don't know if he's flaming you or me? :-) must be a style thing... regards jerry from mschaffer@mindspring.com Tue Mar 23 08:32:08 1999 Subject: Lie Nielson-which plane to buy-Help needed I will be sending in an order today for one of the Lie Nielson low angleblock planes.In the catalogue they mention both a 12 1/2 degree and a 20 degree plane.Myquestion is which should I buy? Any help will be greatly appreciated!!! TIA, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 23 08:48:20 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Binder in a box I am working on a set of wooden forms. Have Looked at various binderplansand the "Binder in a Box" from the Munro Rod Company looks like areasonable off the shelf binder as opposed to gathering materials andputting one together...has anyone used one of these? Do they work well?Wasn't there some discussion on these some time ago in the context of aGreyrock gathering? Any guidance would be appreciated...TIAMike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from BThoman@neonsoft.com Tue Mar 23 09:01:51 1999 Subject: Tip Tops Does anyone make these? If so, what do you use for the tubing? I can onlyfind stainless steel, brass and aluminum. None of these seem easy toplatewith a liquid plating solution. I'd like to make the tip top and plate itthe same color as the guides which is either english bronze or blackened.If anyone has any ideas I'd be much appreciative. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Mar 23 09:14:17 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id JAA22067 for; (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP idJAA07192 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 Subject: Re: Nodeless FAQ I found this out the hard way, now you can find it out the easy way :-) The length of the the strip you "lose" to the splice also depends on the width of the strip. On the rod I'm finishing now, for some reason I split the strips about 1/8 inch wider than usual (I guess I just likeplaning). That made each splice about 1 inch longer than usual, whichin turn made each spliced strip several inches shorter than I planned. With each rod I invent new and fascinating foul-ups. Yesterday, afterclearly marking the rod butt with "T" for Top, I proceeded to mountthe guides 180 degrees off from where they belonged, varnish the wraps,and inked on my signature. How anyone can make and sell a cane rod for less than $5000 is beyond me.........................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Joseph S.Kallo wrote: Hey, does anyone have a copy of Chris Bogart's FAQ on nodelesstechnique?The version which appears on the Rodmaker's site looks as if it wasscannedin and is missing key words (sentences?). Its kinda like reading atreasuremap which is washed out right around the area where the treasure islocated. I am especially interested in finding out how much longer thanspec the total length of the pre-spliced strips should be in order to takeaccount of the splices. I know that this depends upon the angle at whichthe splices are cut--I intend to use the Garrison splice block which has a4* angle for the slope on which the strip rests ( I guess I could figure itout myself, but I'd still like a complete copy of the file). Thanks all,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Mar 23 11:01:29 1999 Subject: Re: Lie Nielson-which plane to buy-Help needed In the catalogue they mention both a 12 1/2 degree and a 20 degreeplane. Myquestion is which should I buy? Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!TIA, The lower angle tends to produce lifts and chips at the nodes morethan the higher angle, but consider this:The blade can be sharpened at different angles.The angle the front bevel is presented to the cane strip as you areplaning is the same with a 12 1/2 sharpened at 37.5 degree bevelas a 20 sharpened at 30 degrees. Which one should you buy? The one that feels better in you hand,the one you feel you can control better, the one that looks betterto you. As long as you know about adjusting the bevel on the bladedepending on which one you decide to buy there is no good or bad choice. Darryl from jfoster@gte.net Tue Mar 23 11:10:10 1999 Subject: Re: Nodeless FAQ mac-creator="4D4F5353" joe, claude i think i've got it fixed, get it while it's hot jerry from freaner@gte.net Tue Mar 23 12:09:30 1999 Subject: Re: Nodeless FAQ joe, claude i think i've got it fixed, get it while it's hot jerry Thanks, Jerry - much better! Claude from hiltonl@benzie.com Tue Mar 23 22:02:45 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A281360D0124; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:56:49 EST Subject: Fly rod identification A friend of mine bought a fly rod at an estate sale and would like toknow more about it. The rod came in a cloth bag. Inside the bag is acylinder with indentations for each of the three sections of the rodplus the second tip. The cylinder is capped on each end with whatappears to be stamped NC caps. The cylinder holding the rod is done inpurple velvet (may be sprayed on flocking, but is in very good conditionwith no apparent ware). The rod itself is nine feet long with arather plain looking reel seat. The logo on the rod is a diamond withina diamond. Around the inside perimeter of the first diamond is themakers name Horrocks-Ibbotson Co. Makers of Fishing Tackle.Within the inside diamond is their location, UTICA N.Y. The apparentname of this particular rod is "Senator " which appears on the flatbelow the maker's logo. Any information, including a ballpark value, would be appreciated.Thanks. Larry from cattanac@wmis.net Tue Mar 23 22:05:54 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA23550 for ;Tue, 23 Mar 1999 Subject: Proprietary Secrets Revealed Just as the art so is the science - that is - in rod design just as inrod making there are no real secrets. But there are several approaches -intuitive - computer use - which is right - whichever works for theindividual.In general a good understanding of rod design required casting manydifferent rods and then in some fashion comparing them using somemethod.Eventually patterns will develope - and from the understanding one canthenmake theory - not proofs. Theory meaning that there is evidence - proofmeaning unshakable.Being the technical I will give you the graphspeak :-( Bummer -Others will speak with romance calling back on how slope to slope thenumbers change.I will admit to the downfall of not being able to bring it down tosimpler terms - Larry Blan and I have talked for hours and cast countlessrods together. In these conversations there is a common language -graphspeak.You are correct in that there is a small core of serious interest. Manymembers of this list are able to cast a vast selection of rods at the gettogethers and chose among their likings.If you like I will forward a fresher view of thoughts (15 pages) butthey are geared to the technical. Just e-mail me off the list. Also thereare a few sources of taper data bases to mull through this would be a goodstart to do comparisons. But just as it requires planing to make the rods -design requires casting and comparison Good Luck from stpete@netten.net Tue Mar 23 22:36:32 1999 Tue, 23 Mar 1999 22:41:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Binder in a box Michael, Since no one else has answered your question, I will. I own one ofJon's first group of binders. It looks fine and best of all, mine wasvery easily tuned to put out straight sections. If I had to change onething it would be that I would prefer a deeper 'V' in the pulley of themain drive. I have no idea if this is just my way of looking at it, orif it has to do with my drive belt, or if Jon has in fact addressed thisissue - this was, afterall, part of his first attempt. At anyrate, ithasn't worried me enough to get off my duff and change it out (whichwould be very easy to do I might add). I don't know what Jon chargesthese days, but at the time I felt that it was worth every cent just tokeep from running all over town for supplies to build one. (It'd stillbe a bit of an expense just in materials). I happened to have the opportunity to see Harry Boyd's homemade binderthis past weekend. Very simple affair, but effective - AND Harry tellsme it puts out a very straight blank. Couldn't have cost him more than$25 in materials and the get-up-and-go to make one. Good Luck,Rick C. Michael Leitheiser wrote: I am working on a set of wooden forms. Have Looked at various binderplansand the "Binder in a Box" from the Munro Rod Company looks like areasonable off the shelf binder as opposed to gathering materials andputting one together...has anyone used one of these? Do they work well?Wasn't there some discussion on these some time ago in the context of aGreyrock gathering? Any guidance would be appreciated...TIAMike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 24 07:33:17 1999 flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Subject: Storage of varnish and epoxy List,I was working down in my shop this morning and I got to thinking abouthowpeople store their varnish and epoxy. As you all know there are problemswiththese types of materials forming a skin and drying out in the can. A trickIlearned a long time ago is to make sure when you put these products awaythatyou seal the lid real tight and one other trick I have learned from being inthe trades for so long is store these products up side down. This puts theliquid at the lid end and prevents air from infiltrating the can. Also ifthis is something that scares you as to the contents leaking out from nothaving a tight seal there are some great products on the market that helptostop the skinning over. Munro Rod Company carries a product just for thisandit really works great.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 24 07:43:13 1999 flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Subject: Munro Rod Co. Forms, List,I was at the fly fishing show in Detroit ( Southfield) MI. last weekend andhad a chance to check out Jon's new forms. All I can say is "WOW" did theylook nice. The workmanship and the finish on them was incredible. I knowassoon as I can work it into my budget I am going to order a set of these. Ihave seen forms going for a lot more than this that I don't think evencompareto the quality that I saw here. If you are thinking on getting a new set offorms I would suggest checking these out. The usual disclaimer here Ihavenothing to gain from this post.Bret from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Wed Mar 24 08:53:02 1999 SMTP(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d1); Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:53:17 - 0500 Subject: Lathe Fun! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE75DD.085409A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE75DD.085409A0 I've got a story...it's sad but true...about a man who didn't know what =to do...(when it came to using a lathe, and the man is myself) =Anyway...I'm delirious and you will understand why in a second. So the =other night I unpack my new Sherline lathe and set it up to turn grips. =Everything looked great! Picked up a 4'4" 4wt and was read to turn. =Unfortunately, the sanding block lodged under the grip...stopping =it...and the chuck kept spinning, thus, the lathe tore the entire rod, =up until the grip, off. Not a bad way to spend an evening. Oh =well...hope this makes everyone feel better and gives you all a good =laugh. Nothing like realizing the slope of my learning curve is now = Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE75DD.085409A0 I've got a story...it's sad but = man who didn't know what to do...(when it came to using a lathe, and the = grip...stopping it...and the chuck kept spinning, thus, the lathe tore = Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod = Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) =277- 4510www.munrorodco.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE75DD.085409A0-- from sniderja@email.uc.edu Wed Mar 24 09:19:14 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Munro Rod Co. Forms, And how was this "quality" you mentioned determined? By looks? By use?Bychecking the accuracy of the groove? By studying the specs of the metalsinvolved? I certainly don't mean to imply that these aren't excellentforms, likely they are. But isn't this sort of like purchasing a fly rodwithout ever having cast it? J. Snider. At 08:41 AM 3/24/99 EST, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:List,I was at the fly fishing show in Detroit ( Southfield) MI. last weekend andhad a chance to check out Jon's new forms. All I can say is "WOW" didtheylook nice. The workmanship and the finish on them was incredible. Iknow assoon as I can work it into my budget I am going to order a set of these. Ihave seen forms going for a lot more than this that I don't think evencompareto the quality that I saw here. If you are thinking on getting a new set offorms I would suggest checking these out. The usual disclaimer here Ihavenothing to gain from this post.Bret from DBURRILL@TELEHUB.com Wed Mar 24 09:44:20 1999 Subject: RE: Munro Rod Co. Forms, I had a phone conversation with Jon a couple weeks ago about his forms. Hisspecifications are very high (write him for all the details),and he actuallydoes have a formal QA process in place to be sure the specs are met. Theyare not cheap, but high quality tools never are. They're on my list of'Things to buy that I can't quite afford'. -----Original Message-----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com [SMTP:Grhghlndr@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 5:41 AM flyh2o@worldnet.att.netCc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Munro Rod Co. Forms, List,I was at the fly fishing show in Detroit ( Southfield) MI. lastweekend andhad a chance to check out Jon's new forms. All I can say is "WOW"did theylook nice. The workmanship and the finish on them was incredible.I know assoon as I can work it into my budget I am going to order a set ofthese. Ihave seen forms going for a lot more than this that I don't thinkeven compareto the quality that I saw here. If you are thinking on getting anew set offorms I would suggest checking these out. The usual disclaimer hereI havenothing to gain from this post.Bret from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Mar 24 09:48:23 1999 (5.5.2407.0) Subject: stuff The usual disclaimer that I have no interest in the company but am justpassing oninformation. Goldenwitch is now the exclusive distributor, according towhat custom PAC toldme, for small quantities of URAC, Am. Ch. and Resorcinol for rod makers.Custom PAC told methat they are geared for plywood makers and large cabinet shops and not quantities for rodmakers so they have made goldenwitch their distributor. A question for everybody, I understand that SE Supreme makes a good line cant remember the Wulff line for cane rods. Any help would beappreciated. from GeraldB@Pennwell.com Wed Mar 24 13:56:59 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Forms - get it in writing! OK gang - Please, learn from my mistakes. I told you a couple of weeks ago abouthaving purchased the steel, having a new found friend to mill it all... Igave him a detailed drawing and a blow by blow account of how theprojectshould progress. The resulting forms fit together particularly well, theboring and tapping are great and the action on the shoulder bolts and setscrews are marvelous. Well, that's where the good stuff ended. The mating seam between the steel bars is nice and flush - can't see lightbetween them at all. But lay the bars flat and tightened and there's a topsurface to top surface offset of several hundredths of an inch. Not havingmy precision measuring tools yet I'd suppose it's very close to 3/100's. I made it really clear what these were going to be used for, showed himpictures, gave him a really good run down and agreed on a price.Gentleman'sagreement sort of stuff, you know. Well, now he's saying that what needstohappen is to turn a grinding machine loose on the surfaces. All I can think now is that the price just went through the roof (I don'tyet know what the grinding is going to cost). That, plus the fact I'mworried as hell as to what grinding's going to do to the stressed skin ofthe steel. Am I in trouble now? Did I spend money on a job done 1/2@ssed? Please, ifanyone has suggestions let me know. I really could use the combinedexperience this list is so good at providing those of us in need. Thanks much (in advance), Gerald in Tulsa PS - If you go the route of having someone else do the milling, boring, etal for you be really specific and know ahead of time what your agreementreally is. Write it down and get some buy in, particularly if this issomeone you don't normally work with. from gaff@carol.net Wed Mar 24 15:07:00 1999 0500 Subject: i did something wrong! hey guys,once again i need to impose on your kindness. i am filing the buttsection of my final planing form (crs). the goal was .085 tip and .155butt. i just measured the depth with the dial calipher and found the tipwas .085 (right on target). however, when i checked the butt endi was only at .135, .020 off. if anyone has any suggestion on how i can correct this without starting all over it will probably help me overcomemy self suicidal instinct, and earn my undying gratitude.thanks,wil from GeraldB@Pennwell.com Wed Mar 24 15:54:58 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Devil's in the [form] details Gosh, the outpouring of consolation! Thanks folks. Truly astounding. A clarification which might skew your sympathy, however. The groovehasn'tbeen cut. I've reserved that chore for myself with the thread cutter jig.So, in effect all I have are six 6' solid bars of steel with tapped boresand offset surfaces of about 3/100's (yes, that's three sets). At least thegroove hadn't been cut. So, it seems my real concern is this: What should/shouldn't I do next? I'mnot real thrilled about removing 3/100's off these three sets due to theamount of warping **potential** I'm facing. Some of you "better advicegivers" have already said draw filing isn't going to affect the bars and isthe route to go. If that's so, then so be it. Others have suggested grindingslowly. Is there a structural difference between these two? I understandgrinding creates a lot of heat and encourages warping. I certainly don'twant to allow the stresses inherent in this steel unleashed. Again, coulduse more opinions please. (And, yes, I do have a new 10 mill bastard filestanding by) from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Mar 24 16:09:27 1999 Subject: Re: RE: Munro Rod Co. Forms, J.Snyder,Yeh I planed out two rods when I was at the show and I measured theforms atever .0001" for accuracy and I also did a Rockwell hardness test on themetaland performed a stress test to check that aspect out too. Now how do you really think I came to my conclusion. I have been buyingnothing but high quality tools all my life and I can usually get a good ideaif they are good or not by looking at them. I can't beleive I quantified yourquestion with a response.BRET from jczimny@dol.net Wed Mar 24 16:38:41 1999 -0500 "'rod'" Subject: RE: Forms - get it in writing! Dear Gerald,You repeat the trope of the new rod maker. When you show one to amachinist (job shop) andyou carefully explain the parameters, you usually get back a "yeh, I can dothat $300". But,when the shop actually encounters the critical tolerances required, itcan't do it. Oftenthey press for tons of additional money to make it right. One wonderswhat type of people doenter this profession. However, I know lots of good one who can make a form. They are lots ofgood shops andmachinists. But a good set of forms are never going to be cheap. Those thatknow how to makethem have paid their dues and know how much time it takes to get themjust right.I suggest that you not try to salvage the forms and walk away.Really good forms are being made by more than a few companies.Generally, they are worth theprice. The good ones are a pleasure to use and give outstanding results.John Z----- Original Message----- Subject: Forms - get it in writing! OK gang - Please, learn from my mistakes. I told you a couple of weeks ago abouthaving purchased the steel, having a new found friend to mill it all... Igave him a detailed drawing and a blow by blow account of how theprojectshould progress. The resulting forms fit together particularly well, theboring and tapping are great and the action on the shoulder bolts and setscrews are marvelous. Well, that's where the good stuff ended. The mating seam between the steel bars is nice and flush - can't see lightbetween them at all. But lay the bars flat and tightened and there's a topsurface to top surface offset of several hundredths of an inch. Not havingmy precision measuring tools yet I'd suppose it's very close to 3/100's. I made it really clear what these were going to be used for, showed himpictures, gave him a really good run down and agreed on a price.Gentleman'sagreement sort of stuff, you know. Well, now he's saying that what needstohappen is to turn a grinding machine loose on the surfaces. All I can think now is that the price just went through the roof (I don'tyet know what the grinding is going to cost). That, plus the fact I'mworried as hell as to what grinding's going to do to the stressed skin ofthe steel. Am I in trouble now? Did I spend money on a job done 1/2@ssed? Please, ifanyone has suggestions let me know. I really could use the combinedexperience this list is so good at providing those of us in need. Thanks much (in advance), Gerald in Tulsa PS - If you go the route of having someone else do the milling, boring, etal for you be really specific and know ahead of time what your agreementreally is. Write it down and get some buy in, particularly if this issomeone you don't normally work with. from cbbghl@tthsc3.lubb.ttuhsc.edu Wed Mar 24 17:10:55 1999 SMTP;Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:10:38 -0600 Subject: Re: Forms - get it in writing! At 01:55 PM 3/24/99 -0600, Gerald Buckley wrote:OK gang - Please, learn from my mistakes. ...lay the bars flat and tightened and there's a topsurface to top surface offset of several hundredths of an inch. ...now he's saying that what needs tohappen is to turn a grinding machine loose on the surfaces....I'mworried as hell as to what grinding's going to do to the stressed skin ofthe steel. I have not yet built planing forms, but, in general, it is very difficultto drill and tap multiple holes in mating parts and achieve perfectalignment. However, I would have expected the error to be a fewthousandths rather than a few hundredths. Nevertheless, it seems to methat that the best approach would have been to drill and tap the holes,bolt the halves together and mill or grind the tops flat before milling thegroove. As you are apparently already aware, the problem with this isthat, if cold-rolled steel is used, warping resulting from milling thesurface is a virtual certainty. This is why the use of stress- relievedmaterial is a good idea. Your current situation is that levelling thesurface at this point may well cause the forms to warp but will also leaveone leg of the groove shorter than the other, requiring that to be redoneas well. I can think of no painless solution.> from stpete@netten.net Wed Mar 24 17:29:31 1999 Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:34:10 -0600 Subject: Re: i did something wrong! W.D., If you can open your forms to .250 at the butt, I'd say start makingrods. You can always go back and work off some metal later. Startbuilding!! Come on guys - especially on your homebuilt forms for thebeginners - these are ADJUSTABLE!!!. If you are not selling rods, a few thousands here or there on your firstrods don't make a hill of beans. They're just fishing poles. Measure aHeddon or a Phillipson sometime. I can't speak for the rest, but mostrods vary .003 to .006 at any point from mid to butt. You want to buildrods. Build 'em and quit putting it off over a few thousands onsomething that you can go back and retune anyhow. With all the love in my trout lovin' heart. Rick C. w.d. gatliff wrote: hey guys,once again i need to impose on your kindness. i am filing the buttsection of my final planing form (crs). the goal was .085 tip and .155butt. i just measured the depth with the dial calipher and found the tipwas .085 (right on target). however, when i checked the butt endi was only at .135, .020 off. if anyone has any suggestion on how i cancorrect this without starting all over it will probably help me overcomemy self suicidal instinct, and earn my undying gratitude.thanks,wil from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Wed Mar 24 17:36:33 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Wed, Subject: RE: Forms - get it in writing! "'rod'" Been there, done that. It IS possible to have the top milled down without warpage. The firstmachinist to tackle my forms messed up the groove (of course). Thesecondmachinist was able to mill the surface flat without warping the cold-rolledsteel. The secret, according to machinist number two, is to go slowly, andnot try to take all the steel off at once. The forms with the milled surfacewere perfectly flat. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Forms - get it in writing! At 01:55 PM 3/24/99 -0600, Gerald Buckley wrote:OK gang - Please, learn from my mistakes. ...lay the bars flat and tightened and there's a topsurface to top surface offset of several hundredths of an inch....now he's saying that what needs tohappen is to turn a grinding machine loose on the surfaces....I'mworried as hell as to what grinding's going to do to the stressed skin ofthe steel. I have not yet built planing forms, but, in general, it is very difficultto drill and tap multiple holes in mating parts and achieve perfectalignment. However, I would have expected the error to be a fewthousandths rather than a few hundredths. Nevertheless, it seems to methat that the best approach would have been to drill and tap the holes,bolt the halves together and mill or grind the tops flat beforemilling thegroove. As you are apparently already aware, the problem with this isthat, if cold-rolled steel is used, warping resulting from milling thesurface is a virtual certainty. This is why the use of stress- relievedmaterial is a good idea. Your current situation is that levelling thesurface at this point may well cause the forms to warp but will alsoleaveone leg of the groove shorter than the other, requiring that to be redoneas well. I can think of no painless solution.> from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Mar 24 18:34:06 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5)with SMTP id TAA20942 for ; Wed, 24 Mar Subject: Revealing Secrets I have had an overwhelming response to send Graphspeak - I amassemblingthe info into a zip file to save space - there will be a couple of jpgs aswell. I should be sending requests later tonight. Perhaps Jerry can updatethe download that he has with the newer info. I will have it at:cyber.wmis.net/~cattanac/ as well SPEAKING Of JERRY - I for one really appreciate the effort and space thatJerry has provided - I have overheard the yearly cost of the server spacethat he rents for the archives and also know that he dips into his ownpocket for this money. I propose that everyone that shares thisappreciation might stick a buck ($1.00) into the mail to help Jerry out onthe space costs - just a buck from each would go a long ways to coveringhiscosts: Jerry Foster5460 Harrison RoadParadise, CA 95969 Jerry - I apologize for putting you on the spot here but - from hiltonl@benzie.com Wed Mar 24 22:04:14 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A463AD002A; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:58:27 EST Subject: Fly rod identification Ray Gould,Thanks very much for the info on the "Senator" rod. I will pass it onto the rod's new owner. Larry Hilton from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Wed Mar 24 23:15:52 1999 Subject: Help with final planing! Dear list members, I have spent two evenings (~8-12 hrs, until ~2:30 am) with finalplaning of two butt section strips. I thought that this would go fastersince I've previously taken my twelve tip strips down to butt sizedimensions without much precision in about half the time. My hangup ishow much should I trust the forms? Also, when I am close to finalmeasurements and am using a 212 scraper per Cattanach technique, I'mspending a lot of time putting a depression in my water stone. It seemsthat I am removing more metal than cane. The station dimension is stillgreater than it should be (does'nt change- the scraper slides over thearea of bamboo without touching the bamboo) and I'm taking chips from myform, and iron. I am reluctant to place a groove in my 212 and blockplane (at least until I'm done with my first rod). I have thought aboutsliding the section forward a tad to scrape the problematic area, thenmeasuring and returning to the original spot to even out, but thoughtthat if I do this I need to determine my taper at 1" intervals so thatI'm not just correcting the station, but the entire length. Also, Ithought that I may have trouble at the swell area if I slide forwardsince the taper here is not even close to linear. All tips/help is greatly appreciated! Best Regards, Paul MartinoKalispell, MT * from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Mar 25 03:31:33 1999 Subject: Re: i did something wrong! Way to go Rick. I spent way too many hours contemplating the use, designandfunction of the metal forms. When I got mine built, they fell into thebackground. Now I worry much more about blade sharpness, bindersettings, andwhere I am going to get my next reel seat. The forms are just a small partofthe rod building process. Just go build you a fishing pole and have fun.. stuart miller from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 25 04:07:34 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id WAA19593; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:06:01 +1200 Subject: Re: Help with final planing! Paul , Do not get too hung up on the .001 accuracy to start with . My first rodwasa weight six 7'6" fly rod which made an excellent 7'spinning rod as I madeamajor mistake in the dimensions which I found after glueing up . As arelevently recent rodmaker I suggest it is probably more important tomoveon through the steps and get more confident about the process then toworryabout .001" dimensions. I had the same problem early on , the stripdimensions always exceeded the depth gauge dimensions and I solved it bysliding up the form a little and measuring more often . The rods workedfine . It was probably caused by the point being slightly rounded and forthe last two rods I have adopted John's suggestion of allowing .005 andthedimensions have been very close. I think it is possible to get overly concerned as a night time rod maker inthe precision that professionals and experts expect and achieve. My homebuilt rods sometimes do not come out exactly on the taper , but they castwell . I think the variation in the bamboo , and its heat treatment , mayhave a greater affect on the final rod action then minor variances in taper. Just my humble , and inexperienced , opinion. IankAt 10:15 PM 24/03/99 -0800, Paul Martino wrote:Dear list members, I have spent two evenings (~8-12 hrs, until ~2:30 am) with finalplaning of two butt section strips. I thought that this would go fastersince I've previously taken my twelve tip strips down to butt sizedimensions without much precision in about half the time. My hangup ishow much should I trust the forms? Also, when I am close to finalmeasurements and am using a 212 scraper per Cattanach technique, I'mspending a lot of time putting a depression in my water stone. It seemsthat I am removing more metal than cane. The station dimension is stillgreater than it should be (does'nt change- the scraper slides over thearea of bamboo without touching the bamboo) and I'm taking chips frommyform, and iron. I am reluctant to place a groove in my 212 and blockplane (at least until I'm done with my first rod). I have thought aboutsliding the section forward a tad to scrape the problematic area, thenmeasuring and returning to the original spot to even out, but thoughtthat if I do this I need to determine my taper at 1" intervals so thatI'm not just correcting the station, but the entire length. Also, Ithought that I may have trouble at the swell area if I slide forwardsince the taper here is not even close to linear. All tips/help is greatly appreciated! Best Regards, Paul MartinoKalispell, MT * from jlintvet@clarityconnect.com Thu Mar 25 08:52:43 1999 SMTP(Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.3d1); Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:53:07 - 0500 Subject: Re: Help with final planing! When I had a not so nice set of forms this is what I did. First, Isharpened a lot...hate to say it, but part of the shallow learning curve.Second, I set my forms and took the first strip down to the metal. With asharp blade and a very light cut, you plane should be able to slide down thelength without lodging in the metal. Next I would measure my strip ateverysection. Whenever there was a difference I would adjust the forms at thatstation and plane to the metal again. If I was trying to hit .250 and itwas reading .256, I would set the forms to .244 and make a note of it.Personally, I found this method to be very easy and consistent. Once I hada strip to the size I thought was close enough, I would plane every other tothe metal without measuring and be done with it. Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)140 E. Spencer St.Ithaca, NY 14850(800) 836-7558 or (607) 277-4510www.munrorodco.com-----Original Message----- Subject: Help with final planing! Dear list members, I have spent two evenings (~8-12 hrs, until ~2:30 am) with finalplaning of two butt section strips. I thought that this would go fastersince I've previously taken my twelve tip strips down to butt sizedimensions without much precision in about half the time. My hangup ishow much should I trust the forms? Also, when I am close to finalmeasurements and am using a 212 scraper per Cattanach technique, I'mspending a lot of time putting a depression in my water stone. It seemsthat I am removing more metal than cane. The station dimension is stillgreater than it should be (does'nt change- the scraper slides over thearea of bamboo without touching the bamboo) and I'm taking chips frommyform, and iron. I am reluctant to place a groove in my 212 and blockplane (at least until I'm done with my first rod). I have thought aboutsliding the section forward a tad to scrape the problematic area, thenmeasuring and returning to the original spot to even out, but thoughtthat if I do this I need to determine my taper at 1" intervals so thatI'm not just correcting the station, but the entire length. Also, Ithought that I may have trouble at the swell area if I slide forwardsince the taper here is not even close to linear. All tips/help is greatly appreciated! Best Regards, Paul MartinoKalispell, MT * from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Mar 25 09:01:11 1999 Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:59:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with final planing! =_NextPart_000_01BE76A5.F2CDAF40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE76A5.F2CDAF40 Paul, It's difficult to say, without being there to watch what is happening. First, let me say that, yes, you ought to be able to trust that yourplaning form will produce almost exactly what you have "dialed-in." But, your irons -- or sharpening them to a proper angle. Learning propersharpening techniques is a special area, with its own "learning curve" andspecial considerations. If you're doing it properly, there should not beany noticeable wearing-down of the stones until after many rods havebeenbuilt. A second possibility may be that the sole of your plane(s) may not beabsolutely flat. Usually, the sole of any plane needs to be "dressed" forour purposes, and this means slowly working that surface across a pieceofglass (or some other absolutely flat surface) upon which wet-or- drysandpaper has been laid. Begin with 220 grit lubricated with somemineralspirits, and work your way down to 400, 600 and then to something asfineas 1200 or 1500. Valve-grinding compound for the final stages alsoworksfine. A beautiful, mirror surface that is dead flat is your objective. (Your stones would be super-efficient in this operation, but they will notproduce the desired flatness because, very likely, they are not themselvesdead flat to begin with.) And the third possibility may be that the surface of your forms may not beexactly flat across the two bars. This could cause the edge of your ironsto slide over the top of the cane -- never quite touching the surface youintend to make level with the top edges of the groove. You can check thiswith the edge of a truly straight piece of metal like your 60 degreecenter-gauge. Lift your planing forms up by one end and sight down thegroove into a source of light, as if you were sighting down the rib of ashotgun barrel. Then, with a free hand, hold the edge of your center- gaugeperpendicular (and at a right angle) to the surface of the forms and runthat edge slowly down the length. You are looking for any light that may"escape" between the surface of the forms and the edge of thecenter- gauge. There should be none. You ought to be able to trust that when you are planing a strip, it willultimately lie perfectly within the groove, with its exposed, top surfaceabsolutely flush with the surface of the form itself. If you are not ableto obtain this result in your final planing, I can't think of anything thatcould be the problem other than: 1) an untrue surface on the sole of yourplane; 2) an untrue surface across the top of your forms, or; 3) impropersharpening technique. Cheers, Bill ----------From: Paul Martino Subject: Help with final planing!Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 10:15 PM Dear list members, I have spent two evenings (~8-12 hrs, until ~2:30 am) with finalplaning of two butt section strips. I thought that this would go fastersince I've previously taken my twelve tip strips down to butt sizedimensions without much precision in about half the time. My hangup ishow much should I trust the forms? Also, when I am close to finalmeasurements and am using a 212 scraper per Cattanach technique, I'mspending a lot of time putting a depression in my water stone. It seemsthat I am removing more metal than cane. The station dimension is stillgreater than it should be (does'nt change- the scraper slides over thearea of bamboo without touching the bamboo) and I'm taking chips frommyform, and iron. I am reluctant to place a groove in my 212 and blockplane (at least until I'm done with my first rod). I have thought aboutsliding the section forward a tad to scrape the problematic area, thenmeasuring and returning to the original spot to even out, but thoughtthat if I do this I need to determine my taper at 1" intervals so thatI'm not just correcting the station, but the entire length. Also, Ithought that I may have trouble at the swell area if I slide forwardsince the taper here is not even close to linear. All tips/help is greatly appreciated! Best Regards, Paul MartinoKalispell, MT *------=_NextPart_000_01BE76A5.F2CDAF40 Paul,It's difficult = me say that, yes, you ought to be able to trust that your planing form =will produce almost exactly what you have "dialed-in." = having problems sharpening your irons -- or sharpening them to a proper = any noticeable wearing-down of the stones until after many rods have =been built.A second possibility may be that the sole of your = means slowly working that surface across a piece of glass (or some other=absolutely flat surface) upon which wet-or-dry sandpaper has been laid. = = = operation, but they will not produce the desired flatness because, very =likely, they are not themselves dead flat to begin with.)And the =third possibility may be that the surface of your forms may not be = your irons to slide over the top of the cane -- never quite touching the =surface you intend to make level with the top edges of the groove. You =can check this with the edge of a truly straight piece of metal like = one end and sight down the groove into a source of light, as if you were = hold the edge of your center-gauge perpendicular (and at a right angle) =to the surface of the forms and run that edge slowly down the length. = = when you are planing a strip, it will ultimately lie perfectly within =the groove, with its exposed, top surface absolutely flush with the = result in your final planing, I can't think of anything that could be = = bamboo without touching the bamboo) and I'm taking chips from thought that I may have trouble at the swell area if I slide = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE76A5.F2CDAF40-- from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Mar 25 09:11:48 1999 Subject: Plane blade sharpening guide Guys,When I ordered my plane and wet stones I fogot to get a sharpening guideforthe blades, duh!In the catalogue I have they offer a veritas sharpening guide and anglesetting jig. The jig is graduated at 15, 20, 25, 30, and 35 degrees.Has anyone used this guide before, and is it worth getting or is it justbells and whistles? TIA, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Mar 25 10:08:07 1999 0500 Subject: Help with final planing ...in addition to what has already been said...what about having the plane blade positioned precisely level within the plane itself. If one side is sticking out further than the other it could cause problems (I think it will catch the metal on that side). Also, if the form is already chewed up, some evening out/flattening might be necessary or you will keep hitting protuberances and dulling your blade and affecting your stroke... Andy p.s. I have only done one rod so take this with that understanding from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Mar 25 10:59:37 1999 Subject: Re: Plane blade sharpening guide In the catalogue I have they offer a veritas sharpening guide and anglesetting jig. The jig is graduated at 15, 20, 25, 30, and 35 degrees.Has anyone used this guide before, and is it worth getting or is it justbells and whistles? TIA, I've got both types, the Veritas and the type that clamps to the sidesof the blade. The angle jig for the Veritas is marginally useful unlessyou have other tools like chisels that need to be shapened at differentangles. A much easier and cheaper jig is explained in Wayne's book on page 27. He calls it a stop block. For planing cane you probably won't use any angle less than 30 degrees. The reason I got the Veritasis because it's the only one that allows me to sharpen my Lie-Nielsen scraper blade at 60 degrees. Darryl from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Mar 25 11:08:00 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:07:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Plane blade sharpening guide Doc,Don't bother with the blade setting jig. It simply is not reliable enough just for the cost of postage. BTW, I have both Veritas and Generalsharpeningguides. Of the two, I like the Veritas best. I also like the looks of thethird guide Lea Valley offers. I think it's a Stanley jig. Just my opinions,no financial interest, etc.Harry"michael w. shaffer" wrote: Guys,In the catalogue I have they offer a veritas sharpening guide and anglesetting jig. The jig is graduated at 15, 20, 25, 30, and 35 degrees.Has anyone used this guide before, and is it worth getting or is it justbells and whistles? TIA, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from jackdale@uswest.net Thu Mar 25 14:09:24 1999 (209.180.248.167) Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Be Careful] 49E6FAAF5F50263D2487D487" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 49E6FAAF5F50263D2487D487 Sorry about the SPAM, but I thought you might want to know about thislittle scam. --------------49E6FAAF5F50263D2487D487 (207.82.63.58) Subject: Fwd: Be Careful Message from a friend. I received a telephone call today (at home) from an individual himself as an AT&T Service Technician who was conducting a test on ourtelephone lines. He stated that to complete the test I should touch nine(9), zero (0), the pound sign (#) and then hang up. I was suspicious andrefused. Upon contacting the telephone company, I was informed that by pushing90#,you give the requesting individual full access to your telephone line,whichallows them to place long distance telephone calls billed to your homephonenumber. I was further informed that this scam has been originatingfrommanyof the local jails/prisons. I have also verified this information withSouthern Bell, MCI and GTE. Please beware. DO NOT press 90# for ANYONE. The GTE SecurityDepartmentrequested that I share this information with others. PLEASE pass this Ontoeveryone you know. If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters fromorganizations you are connected with, I encourage you to pass on thisinformation to them, too. Alan D. MutterPresident and CEOInstantObjects651 Brannan, Suite 300San Francisco, CA 94107-1511Voice: 415.659.6319Fax: 415.284.5313E- mail: amutter@instantobjects.comWeb: www.InstantObjects.com --------------49E6FAAF5F50263D2487D487-- from arnold.jl@pg.com Thu Mar 25 17:47:16 1999 [192.44.184.129] 1998)) id8525673F.00829506 ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:46:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Munro Rod Co. Forms, Bret, I was at the show in Southfield also, but I don't recall seeing Jon'sforms. Who had them on display? Was it in Ron Barch's area? from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Mar 25 18:21:08 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id JAA14894; Fri, 26Mar 1999 09:21:04+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.1) with ESMTP id JAA24256;Fri, 26 Mar 199909:21:03 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Help with final planing Hi, To avoid the edges of a blade to catch the surface of the form, try tofile off both corners of the blade by a grinder before you hone it, about 1/4 inches. Angle?what ever but may be 45 degrees. Max andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: ...in addition to what has already been said...what about having theplane blade positioned precisely level within the plane itself. If oneside is sticking out further than the other it could cause problems (Ithink it will catch the metal on that side). Also, if the form isalready chewed up, some evening out/flattening might be necessaryoryou will keep hitting protuberances and dulling your blade andaffecting your stroke... Andy p.s. I have only done one rod so take this with that understanding -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from stpete@netten.net Thu Mar 25 18:27:27 1999 Subject: Calibration of Depth Gauge Chris Bogart, Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just reviewed your calibrationarticle. It is a MUST READ for all rodmakers - especially beginners. Ibought a 60* calibration block, but it is nice to be able to CONFIRMwhat the gauge is supposed to read. The gauge block is still a timesaver since once I guarantee the standard, I'll have no more calculatingto do. And those of you who have the chamfered hole calibration bars,you can now find the standard depth of the holes and you have a reliableand usable block. Once again, the list justifies its existance! Rick (looking forward to the day I can contribute) Crenshaw from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Mar 25 19:47:33 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge I second Rick's praise. That article is great. I've printed it up and tapedit to my workshop wall. Many thanks, Chris. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Calibration of Depth Gauge Chris Bogart, Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just reviewed your calibrationarticle. It is a MUST READ for all rodmakers - especially beginners. Ibought a 60* calibration block, but it is nice to be able to CONFIRMwhat the gauge is supposed to read. The gauge block is still a timesaver since once I guarantee the standard, I'll have no more calculatingto do. And those of you who have the chamfered hole calibration bars,you can now find the standard depth of the holes and you have a reliableand usable block. Once again, the list justifies its existance! Rick (looking forward to the day I can contribute) Crenshaw from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Thu Mar 25 19:55:56 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA40126 for; Fri, 26 Mar 199901:55:12 GMT Subject: Stanley # 12 Scraper I can't find any info in local catalogues on this plane, one for salelocally for 75 CDN, is it worth while looking at ? from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 25 23:00:08 1999 mtiwmhc06.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Subject: Angle Start Form Gentlemen:I think I have a fairly good idea of how to go about getting a finalplaning form up and running, but I am a little confused on "roughing" forms. In Cattanachs book he uses a 30* and a 52.5* angle in the form he uses to""square up" the strips before he goes on to another form to put theinitial untapered 60* angle on the strips. I think I understand how to use the 60* tool to get the goove in the finalplaning form, but how in the devil to you get the angles in the roughingform? Also, Cattanachs choice of angles for the "squaring up form" arebased on the fact that he normally gets 24 strips from a culm...is thisrealistic for a first timer?Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from stpete@netten.net Fri Mar 26 00:10:37 1999 Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:15:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Angle Start Form Mike, Take two 4' x 1"x2" maple, oak or tight grained wood boards. Set atable saw up to 60* angle. Using a scrap board, set the board up as anadjustable fence where the blade is leaning into the fence so that onlya small portion of the blade is exposed. Now adjust the fence so thatif you run the 1x2 down the fence, a 30* angle about 3/16" deep is cut.Do that to the top AND bottom of ONE board as shown in fig a : (hopethis comes out right)___ ___ ___fig a. | \ fig b. | \/ || | | | || | | |\ ||___/ |___/ \_| Now run ONE side of the the other board the same way, but LAY THE BOARDFLAT for the other cut (it'll give you 60* cut) and ADJUST THE FENCE forthe same 3/16" depth. Put them together as in fig b. and you shouldhave a 4' roughing form with a 3/16" 60* groove on one side and a 3/16"90* groove on the other. My Humble Opinion is that the 90 works justabout as well as the 82.5* angle especially if you can't splitperfectly. I've gotten to the 60* utapered rough strips just using myplaning form before. It takes more time and is a little trickier but itcan be done. I know I've been advocating looser tolerances here lately, but I findmyself being a little evangelical about getting beginners to just getstarted on doing some actual planing. It's damn easy to get caught upin the tool making and never get to the rod making. I personally knowof several beginners who started out making tools and forms and after ayear has passed have still not planed a lick - heck, I don't think theyever split a culm. Now they're selling their stuff before ever givingrod building a shot! Perhaps you new guys should get George Barnes' book,"Bamboo Rod Making".I have read it. It seems George built several nice rods withNON-ADJUSTABLE forms! made on a table saw nonetheless! forget a millingmachine!, bound the rods by hand, straightened the nodes by alcohollamp, heat treated by a propane torch with a section of steel pipe, andbrushed the varnish on. The combined tools probably could by had for agrand total of $100 bucks in today's dollars. +/- 0.001" t is a GOAL -NOT a requirement for a fine rod. The 18" cutthroat on my very imperfect Payne 101 taper didn't ask me ifthe rod "mic'd" out to within the List's standards. It was my fourthrod. My fourteenth rod might, but I ain't waiting to have fun tillthen. Rick C. Michael Leitheiser wrote: Gentlemen:I think I have a fairly good idea of how to go about getting a finalplaning form up and running, but I am a little confused on "roughing"forms. In Cattanachs book he uses a 30* and a 52.5* angle in the form he usesto""square up" the strips before he goes on to another form to put theinitial untapered 60* angle on the strips. I think I understand how to use the 60* tool to get the goove in the finalplaning form, but how in the devil to you get the angles in the roughingform? Also, Cattanachs choice of angles for the "squaring up form" arebased on the fact that he normally gets 24 strips from a culm...is thisrealistic for a first timer?Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from jkallo@midwest.net Fri Mar 26 07:42:40 1999 Subject: Re: Angle Start Form Rick et. al., At the risk of making this sound like a forum for slacker rod makers, Irecently decided to make a rod without spending a whole lot of time tryingto get perfect angles and a perfect taper match. Contrary to my usualpractice of going no more than five minutes without mic'ing angles Idecided to get the initial angles pretty good and simply plane to the formswithout using my calipers again. I though for sure I'd end up with a mess.What I did end up with was a nice rod whose specs are pretty good--justabout as good as when I spent lots of time worrying about it. Mostimportantly I found that getting 'in the planning groove' is an integralpart of making good strips, and that I'd been missing this part incontinually worrying about specs. It seems when I stopped worrying aboutthem, they took care of themselves--something Dewey would no doubthavesomething to say about. I've been having lots more fun making rods sincefiguring this out. Best,Joe At 12:09 AM 3/26/99 -0600, you wrote:Mike, Take two 4' x 1"x2" maple, oak or tight grained wood boards. Set atable saw up to 60* angle. Using a scrap board, set the board up as anadjustable fence where the blade is leaning into the fence so that onlya small portion of the blade is exposed. Now adjust the fence so thatif you run the 1x2 down the fence, a 30* angle about 3/16" deep is cut.Do that to the top AND bottom of ONE board as shown in fig a : (hopethis comes out right)___ ___ ___fig a. | \ fig b. | \/ || | | | || | | |\ ||___/ |___/ \_| Now run ONE side of the the other board the same way, but LAY THEBOARDFLAT for the other cut (it'll give you 60* cut) and ADJUST THE FENCE forthe same 3/16" depth. Put them together as in fig b. and you shouldhave a 4' roughing form with a 3/16" 60* groove on one side and a 3/16"90* groove on the other. My Humble Opinion is that the 90 works justabout as well as the 82.5* angle especially if you can't splitperfectly. I've gotten to the 60* utapered rough strips just using myplaning form before. It takes more time and is a little trickier but itcan be done. I know I've been advocating looser tolerances here lately, but I findmyself being a little evangelical about getting beginners to just getstarted on doing some actual planing. It's damn easy to get caught upin the tool making and never get to the rod making. I personally knowof several beginners who started out making tools and forms and after ayear has passed have still not planed a lick - heck, I don't think theyever split a culm. Now they're selling their stuff before ever givingrod building a shot! Perhaps you new guys should get George Barnes' book,"Bamboo RodMaking".I have read it. It seems George built several nice rods withNON-ADJUSTABLE forms! made on a table saw nonetheless! forget amillingmachine!, bound the rods by hand, straightened the nodes by alcohollamp, heat treated by a propane torch with a section of steel pipe, andbrushed the varnish on. The combined tools probably could by had for agrand total of $100 bucks in today's dollars. +/- 0.001" t is a GOAL -NOT a requirement for a fine rod. The 18" cutthroat on my very imperfect Payne 101 taper didn't ask me ifthe rod "mic'd" out to within the List's standards. It was my fourthrod. My fourteenth rod might, but I ain't waiting to have fun tillthen. Rick C. Michael Leitheiser wrote: Gentlemen:I think I have a fairly good idea of how to go about getting a finalplaning form up and running, but I am a little confused on "roughing"forms. In Cattanachs book he uses a 30* and a 52.5* angle in the form he usesto""square up" the strips before he goes on to another form to put theinitial untapered 60* angle on the strips. I think I understand how to use the 60* tool to get the goove in the finalplaning form, but how in the devil to you get the angles in the roughingform? Also, Cattanachs choice of angles for the "squaring up form" arebased on the fact that he normally gets 24 strips from a culm...is thisrealistic for a first timer?Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Mar 26 08:10:40 1999 GAA07474; (5.5.2407.0) "'richard.nantel@videotron.ca'" Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge where can I find the article ----------From: Richard Nantel[SMTP:richard.nantel@videotron.ca] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge I second Rick's praise. That article is great. I've printed it up and tapedit to my workshop wall. Many thanks, Chris. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu CrenshawSent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Calibration of Depth Gauge Chris Bogart, Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just reviewed your calibrationarticle. It is a MUST READ for all rodmakers - especially beginners. Ibought a 60* calibration block, but it is nice to be able to CONFIRMwhat the gauge is supposed to read. The gauge block is still a timesaver since once I guarantee the standard, I'll have no more calculatingto do. And those of you who have the chamfered hole calibration bars,you can now find the standard depth of the holes and you have a reliableand usable block. Once again, the list justifies its existance! Rick (looking forward to the day I can contribute) Crenshaw from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Fri Mar 26 08:19:46 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge Rodmakers Listproc Hi Pat, http://www.shentel.net/canerod/HTML/ClassIndex.html It's the first link at the top of the page. Richard -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 9:11 AM Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge where can I find the article ----------From: Richard Nantel[SMTP:richard.nantel@videotron.ca] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: RE: Calibration of Depth Gauge I second Rick's praise. That article is great. I've printed itup and tapedit to my workshop wall. Many thanks, Chris. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu CrenshawSent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 7:26 PM Subject: Calibration of Depth Gauge Chris Bogart, Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just reviewed your calibrationarticle. It is a MUST READ for all rodmakers - especiallybeginners. Ibought a 60* calibration block, but it is nice to be able to CONFIRMwhat the gauge is supposed to read. The gauge block is still a timesaver since once I guarantee the standard, I'll have no morecalculatingto do. And those of you who have the chamfered hole calibration bars,you can now find the standard depth of the holes and you havea reliableand usable block. Once again, the list justifies its existance! Rick (looking forward to the day I can contribute) Crenshaw from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Mar 26 08:38:33 1999 Subject: RE: Munro Rod Co. Forms, Thanks for the quick response. I will order two of the forms right away-- apenta and a quad to go with my Wagner hexa form. Appreciate the input!J. Snider. At 05:08 PM 3/24/99 EST, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:J.Snyder,Yeh I planed out two rods when I was at the show and I measured theforms atever .0001" for accuracy and I also did a Rockwell hardness test on themetaland performed a stress test to check that aspect out too. Now how do you really think I came to my conclusion. I have been buyingnothing but high quality tools all my life and I can usually get a good ideaif they are good or not by looking at them. I can't beleive I quantifiedyourquestion with a response.BRET from plantboy@siu.edu Fri Mar 26 09:16:12 1999 Subject: Cork ring adhesion Gents, I was hoping to extract some thoughts on what types of glue you use inbonding your cork rings together for the grips. I'm going to finish- upbuilding my TSmithwick 5'6'' this weekend and was hoping to finish thegripthis evening.I was planing on either using some Titebond II or Devcon 2 ton epoxy. I'm abit wary of using the epoxy as I thought it might not sand well or that itwould be to ridged, not allowing the handle to flex and eventually crack.So any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric AdamsDept. of Plant BiologySIUCCarbondale, IL 62901 from harry37@epix.net Fri Mar 26 10:24:08 1999 SMTP id LAA26321; Subject: Re: Cork ring adhesion Eric Adams wrote: Gents, I was hoping to extract some thoughts on what types of glue you use inbonding your cork rings together for the grips. I'm going to finish- upbuilding my TSmithwick 5'6'' this w