tip of the male ferrule. This is a back-up rod for rough fishing. It has hada rough life and has performed very well. In fact the gold irridite(?) onthe ferrule is scarcely worn. But it's a big (.365 dia) ferrule. Hope someof you innovaters can use this info. Bill from WayneCatt@aol.com Wed Apr 14 18:47:48 1999 Subject: Re: " high amplitude " Brookie -If you look at a f(b) curve and substract the lowest value(except at tip) form the highest value you have the amplitude of the rod. It is something I haven't memtioned much - but I am finding that it is anexcellent way to judge the speed of a rod - the higher the value difference thefaster the rod - and vise versa - the lower the value the slower. When HexRod is reposted there will be a routine to investigate all the tapers in a folder and to rank their speed on amplitude. It fits into the catagory thatincludes the term hinge - some agree - others may not.The committe on rod tapers and home brew will be meeting theweekend after this in Grayrock - I'm sure that it will be discussed - Come on along if you like. from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Apr 14 19:04:38 1999 natco.southshore.com(8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19956 for ;Wed, 14 Apr 199919:05:11 -0500 Subject: Heat treating I finally have two tip sections planed to 60degree angles. I plan on a" Sir D" rod.I did not flame the culm. What I need to know ishow long should I treat the bundle of six strips.I have my oven set up for 375 degrees. Would thetime be longer due to not flaming or will it bethe same as in Wayne's book, 3 1/2 minuets, flipand another 3 1/2, for a total of 7 minuets.I did not do a good job of splitting the culm somy strips are about .250 wide. Will this make adifference.Thanks for the help.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Apr 14 19:18:52 1999 Subject: Re: Restoration question Harry,I'd make a new tip, if it was me. Dave L. from rmoon@ida.net Wed Apr 14 19:51:49 1999 0000 Subject: BUMPED Thanks to all who responded. I have unsubed and subed and am now I amback. But Someone please tell me how I could send a message to the listwhen Iwas not subscribed. Will wonders never cease Ralph from srosenc@together.net Wed Apr 14 19:55:33 1999 20:52:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Orvis rod IMHO you probally have a kit rod. I checked my son's 8' Impregnated rod, tan wraps, chrome guides, 6" cigar grip with walnut reel seat spacer. I believe that Battenkill rods were wrapped with tan and had chrome guides and tiptops, whereas '99' models were wrapped with red and have black guides and tiptops. Also, Battenkill models have Orvis tpye ferrules whereas the '99' models have Super-Z ferrules. Also, the wraps should have been varnished, not flex-coat. Also, both the Battenkill and '99' models would have a registration # inked on them. Steve from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Apr 14 19:58:21 1999 with ESMTP id ;Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:57:48 +0000 Subject: Re: test Hi Ralph, You're coming through OK... Try the old resignation/re-up shuffleagain...? Dennis Ralph W Moon wrote: I fear I am bumped again. Nothing for 48 hours.Ralph from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Apr 14 19:59:33 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9FC2E80114; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:59:40 EDT Subject: Re: More Ferrule questions Richard,As a kid I used a Shakespeare Wonderrod (glass) which has (I stillhave it) aluminum ferrules. Many excellent disavantages to AL.Corrosion, most evident as pitting, and the natural tendency of Aluminumto stick (ever get a Boomalum canoe stuck on a rock in rapids? It gluesitself to the rock.)I also have a cane rod with the SB stainless ferrules. This materialis too hard, IMHO, and lacks flex.Best regards,Reed Richard Nantel wrote: Nickel silver is obviously the material of choice forthe production of ferrules. How much of that, though,is due to tradition or cosmetics? Chris has mentionedthat Paul Young used aluminum on some rod models. Ifaluminum is strong enough, it would certainly be cheapand easy to work in a lathe. What materials other thannickel silver can be used succesfully for ferrules?What are the pros and cons of these alternatematerials? Thanks in advance, Richard from utzerath@execpc.com Wed Apr 14 20:01:56 1999 0500 Subject: Re: ID Please? Thanks. boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE86B1.8B56AF80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE86B1.8B56AF80 Thanks for the help on the Cooks's Tarryall Trademark. I'm pretty sure =this one is an H-I after your comments. Are these any more collectable =than the factory brand locally, I wonder. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE86B1.8B56AF80 Thanks for the help on the Cooks's= wonder. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE86B1.8B56AF80-- from utzerath@execpc.com Wed Apr 14 20:15:52 1999 0500 Subject: Re: Quad test on the glue lines-some mindless ramblings boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE86B3.7E870B40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE86B3.7E870B40 Ray astutely points out that rotating the quad 45 degrees doesn't affect =the MOI hence the theoretical stiffness. However, this brings up an =interesting question about the durability of the quad (especially if the =guides were on the glue line). The maximum stress is proportional to =the distance from the neutral axis, all other things being equal. Since =the distance to the corner is 41 percent more than the distance to the =side, it stands to reason that the stress in the corner fibers is much =greater than it would be on an equivalent hex rod if the rod is flexed =off its normal axis. Just a thought. In practice, I'm pretty sure that the neutral axis is not at the =centroid of the cross section because the modulii for compression and = ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE86B3.7E870B40 Ray astutely points out that = However, this brings up an interesting question about the durability of = proportional to the distance from the neutral axis, all other things = distance to the side, it stands to reason that the stress in the corner = is much greater than it would be on an equivalent hex rod if the rod is = In practice, I'm pretty sure that = axis is not at the centroid of the cross section because the modulii for = ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE86B3.7E870B40-- from dmcfall@ODYSSEE.NET Wed Apr 14 20:17:01 1999 Subject: Re: BUMPED Have you not heard of "IPOIO - translated this is the Inate Perversity OfInanimate Objects" A close relative of Murphy I believe. Dave At 06:50 PM 15/04/1999 -0600, you wrote:Thanks to all who responded. I have unsubed and subed and am now I amback. But Someone please tell me how I could send a message to the listwhen Iwas not subscribed. Will wonders never cease Ralph from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Apr 14 20:33:20 1999 Subject: Orvis Thread Hi Don, My Orvis Battenkill serial 70559 from the 1950's has the reular Orvisbrownwraps and another Orvis I just finished working on had the same wrapsandit was serial 16766 an older rod made by Wes Jordan himself. One threadthat will match the color when varnished is Gudebrod #541 nylon. Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Apr 14 20:36:36 1999 Subject: Heddon Blue Water Hi Harry, I'd make a new tip reusing the old ferrule if it's ok. Ray from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Apr 14 20:39:15 1999 (5.5.2232.9) "'jczimny@dol.net'" ,"'BThoman@neonsoft.com'","'Rodmakers'" Subject: RE: Four-sided Rods; glue lines (lack thereof) Seth,it's nothing more than a sign of neat craftsmanship, a conditionthat usually lasts for life, once contracted. The good news is that thesymptoms, at their most serious, are really quite pleasant. Lets hopenobody develops a cure. Congratulations Mike R Anyway, my question has to do with the factthat I used resorcinol. I had been led to expect that this would result inprominent purple glue lines at every corner, sort of like racing stripes. Ieven chose resorcinol partly because I thought this would look neat. But...no glue lines. Nada. Undetectable. Have I done something wrong? Is thisbaby going to fall apart midway through the season? from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Apr 14 20:39:17 1999 Subject: Binder for a quad Hi Brian, I'd recommend using a four string binder. It'll be easier on the cornersand will put less twist in the rod. ray from bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.net Wed Apr 14 20:41:23 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.net) Subject: Posts boundary="------------1C78A2F1E824D21C17025B38" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 1C78A2F1E824D21C17025B38 I'm not seeing my posts, but am getting others. Is there anybody outthere??? Brian --------------1C78A2F1E824D21C17025B38 name="bdcreek.vcf" filename="bdcreek.vcf" begin:vcard n:Creek;Brian adr:;;;;;;version:2.1email;internet:bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.netnote: fn:Brian Creekend:vcard --------------1C78A2F1E824D21C17025B38-- from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Apr 14 21:10:18 1999 Subject: Heat treating time Hi Tony, A good indicator regarding how long to cook is to watch for the steam andvapors coming off. When it quits steaming you're getting close andadditional time can be used to get the color tone desired. Check the caneevery minute or so after the 7 minutes has gone by. I use 11 minutes totalat 350 for a light color and if the tip strips are smaller than the buttswatch them closely. Ray from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Apr 15 07:37:56 1999 Subject: rod identification Had a chance to see a bamboo rod last evening with the following info:9' 6" long, 3 pc. labeled with decals identifying it as Centurion, R.B.Moore, Belfast.The rod has an aluminum reel seat, medium green thread wraps includingintermediate wraps up and down the rod. All guides looked like strippingguides, and the stripping guide had an agate (or agateen?) insert. The paper label with the rod stated that Joints are "R.S. suction". Theferrules appeared to be brass, and the male ferrule had a tiny, cylindricextension off the tip, say ca. 3-4 mm in length.The edges of the hex rod were quite rounded.Anyone have any info re this rod, made in Belfast? Thanks in advance.J. Snider from brookie@frii.com Thu Apr 15 08:59:18 1999 Subject: High Amplitude Wayne C wrote , in answer to my nit picking question about his earliermention of ' high amplitude ' : Brookie -If you look at a f(b) curve and substract the lowest value(except at tip) form the highest value you have the amplitudeof the rod. It is something I haven't memtioned much - but I am finding that it is an excellent way to judge the speed of a rod - the higher the value difference the faster the rod - and vise versa - the lower the value the slower. When HexRod is reposted there will be a routine to investigate all the tapers in a folder and to rank their speed on amplitude. It fits into the catagory that includes the term hinge - some agree - othersmay not. So in Sue-speak, this translates to me that a parabolic high amplitude rodis one that actually have ... the curve/bend/flex IS felt down into thegrip, and it IS a fast rod. And in keeping with my hyper overtones ofliving life, this IS the right stick for my casting. Wish that I couldwould should slow down, but if *I* can't do it, then the rod will just haveto keep up with me ! ( grin ) .... so the parabolic high amp is me ! The committe on rod tapers and home brew will be meeting the weekend after this in Grayrock - I'm sure that it will be discussed - Come on along if you like. Unless this "Grayrock" is in the northern sphere of Colorado or southernhigh plains of Wyoming, I shall have to pass. Will read the post-poststo this list with interest however .... the reference to hinge ISintriguing .... thanks Wayne, SueColoradoThe northern tier from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Apr 15 11:04:59 1999 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Test /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many cockroaches does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Nobody knows, they all scatter when the light goes on. A Bug's Life. Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Apr 15 15:45:31 1999 via smap (4.1) 13:51:12 PDT Subject: RE: High Amplitude Sue, I interpreted Wayne's post a little differently then you did, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I would think a Parabolic rod is in fact slower because the amplitude would be less then that of a steep taper. The difference between the highest and lowest value of the curve would be greater in a steep taper and lesser in a parabolic taper therefore the steep taper would have a higher amplitude and be faster. Right??? If you like a fast rod in about a 7' 5 wt. I would recommend the Peerless taper posted at the Rodmakers website. It would be a high amplitude rod and it is definitely fast. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from dellc@nextdim.com Thu Apr 15 15:56:11 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A10D12A2014C; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:50:21 PST , "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Four-sided Rods; glue lines (lack thereof) No it just show great workmenship and attention to detail, but how canyouexpect to get better?DellDell & Marie Coppock"The Flyfisher & the Quilter"http://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail flyfisher@nextdim.com----- Original Message----- ; 'Rodmakers' Subject: RE: Four-sided Rods; glue lines (lack thereof) What kind of binder would you use? It's hard for me to imagine anythingthat would be easier on the edges than the semi-circular cradles of aGarrison binder (I built mine using 1 1/4" brass cup hooks), unless there'ssome sort of binder that holds the blank so it doesn't rotate in the binderarms. Or are you saying quads should be bound by hand? In an almost entirely unrelated development, I just had the thrill oftakingthe string off my first glued-up blank. Wow! If it gets better than this,I don't know if I can stand it. Anyway, my question has to do with thefactthat I used resorcinol. I had been led to expect that this would result inprominent purple glue lines at every corner, sort of like racing stripes.Ieven chose resorcinol partly because I thought this would look neat.But...no glue lines. Nada. Undetectable. Have I done something wrong? Is thisbaby going to fall apart midway through the season? -----Original Message-----From: J. C. Zimny [SMTP:jczimny@dol.net]Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Four-sided Rods I wouldn't use a Garrison-type binder on a quad.John Z from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Apr 15 17:19:02 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A5E6C00068; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:19:18 EDT Subject: Re: High Amplitude Sue,Flee from this tempter. I owned that rod and it was so fast I couldn'thold it. Graphite is noodly compared to this stick.Best regards,Reed mcdowellc@lanecc.edu wrote: Sue,If you like a fast rod in about a 7' 5 wt. I would recommend the Peerlesstaper posted at the Rodmakers website. It would be a high amplitude rodand it is definitely fast. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Anachemrpo@aol.com Thu Apr 15 17:29:46 1999 Subject: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Would-be rodmakers: A while back I posted a response about Richard Nantel, Brian Sturrock andI having not one, but two machinists make forms for each of us. I also saidI'd post how it turned out since just about everyone says that having amachinist make forms for you is not the way to go. First off let me say that is *was* a tough haul. Our first machinist made no end of errors but essentially got our six foot forms milled flat, bored and tapped with set and caps screws. One of the forms came out really warped, one had a partial 45* groove and one had a couple of scars that became known among the three of us a "seal bites".The first machinist reneged and refused to cut the groove for us. Brian took the seal bite forms and cut his groove on his own. I''ll let him elaborate on that. I found a local machinist ( the first one was near Richard and Brian in Montreal ) who had made a set of planing forms a few years earlier for another guy (Neal speak up, I know you're out there ). This machinist had to take two attempts to get the grooves right inRichard and my forms, but finally did. We had him undercut the grooves by .010" against Jack Howell's specs. They came out with some stations right on and some .005" to .008" off.The important part is that there were no big jumps that couldn't becompensated The total cost for materials and machinist services came out (in US $) tobe essentially the cost of the pre-made forms available form Maine or Colorado...about $325. I personally found rewards in doing it this way and wouldn't have it any other way. I didn't want to make my own forms from the ground up and I didn't really want a set of "store bought" ones either... Popular wisdom on this subject ( my own personal quirks notwithstanding) is probably correct about not trying to have a machinist make forms for you...but I'm happy with both the results and the process... Russ Lavigne from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Apr 15 18:00:21 1999 Subject: Dainty fly rods Hi Gang, Perhaps we should have some discourse about "dainty" fly rods. By that Ireally mean really short fly rods for fairly light fly lines. I've workedon a couple that bring this issue to mind. One was an Orvis Mitey Mite 5ftx 2pc x 1 1/2ounce little gem and the other was the smallest I've seenyet,a Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce beauty. While these were cutelittle rods I wonder about the practicability of such a creations and justwhy, where and how folks would use one. I'd be interested to learn of yourexperiences in this area. I have the tapers of the above two rods and willpost if there is any interest.Ray from stpete@netten.net Thu Apr 15 18:04:47 1999 Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:09:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Russ, A very interesting report. I had thought about having forms made by alocal machinist, but thought better of it. Thomas Penrose'sinstructions made it seem so simple that after just one conversationwith the machinist, I knew the chance of a simple job was nil, the oddsof a correct job was low, the cost was high, and the wait time was long.I wanted forms, so I considered buying Colorado Bootstraps or making myown. I had heard that the CB forms had a four to six week lead timewith shipping and all. I opted to make my own. I spent $90 on aGrizzly drill press (a slight challenge to make it work for this job),$15 on steel keystock, and $60 on hardware and files. So for a total of$165, I got my forms, some files, and a drill press. The forms took meclose to three weeks to make in my spare time, so I got them faster thatI could have buying them. I would urge all new rodmakers to consider making your own forms. It'snot that expensive and it's not that hard, and now it seems that theywill probably be more accurate than some machine shop jobs. However, ifyou have the money, I suppose a good arguement could be made for buyinga set, especially a really top notch set like Wagner's forms or maybeMonroe's forms. Now that you have your forms, get to planing Russ! Let us know how yourfirst rod turns out! Take care,Rick C.Anachemrpo@aol.com wrote: Would-be rodmakers: A while back I posted a response about Richard Nantel, Brian Sturrockand Ihaving not one, but two machinists make forms for each of us. I also saidI'dpost how it turned out since just about everyone says that having amachinistmake forms for you is not the way to go. First off let me say that is *was* a tough haul.Our first machinist made no end of errors but essentially got our sixfootforms milled flat, bored and tapped with set and caps screws. One of theforms came out really warped, one had a partial 45* groove and one hadacouple of scars that became known among the three of us a "seal bites".Thefirst machinist reneged and refused to cut the groove for us. Brian took the seal bite forms and cut his groove on his own. I''ll let himelaborate on that. I found a local machinist ( the first one was near Richard and Brian inMontreal ) who had made a set of planing forms a few years earlier foranother guy (Neal speak up, I know you're out there ). This machinist had to take two attempts to get the grooves right inRichardand my forms, but finally did. We had him undercut the grooves by .010"against Jack Howell's specs. They came out with some stations right on and some .005" to .008" off.Theimportant part is that there were no big jumps that couldn't becompensated The total cost for materials and machinist services came out (in US $) tobeessentially the cost of the pre-made forms available form Maine orColorado...about $325. I personally found rewards in doing it this way and wouldn't have it anyother way. I didn't want to make my own forms from the ground up and Ididn't really want a set of "store bought" ones either... Popular wisdom on this subject ( my own personal quirks notwithstanding) isprobably correct about not trying to have a machinist make forms foryou...but I'm happy with both the results and the process... Russ Lavigne from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Apr 15 18:22:32 1999 via smap (4.1) 16:28:26 PDT Subject: RE: Dainty fly rods Ray, Please post the tapers and guide spacing if you have it. One less common application for a very short fly rod is the bow and arrow or slingshot cast,whatever you call it. I fish some 10' wide streams that are choked with brush on the edges and over head. A long rod is tough to use in this environment and casting is also limited. Just walking through a brush choked area is much more tolerable with a short fly rod. There is also something very magical about a virtually weightless, short rod with atrout on the end. It's like an extension of your arm. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Thu Apr 15 18:31:51 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA20604 for; Thu, 15 Apr 199923:31:48 GMT Subject: Enamel boundary="------------908586735E9AB7CF110E285C" --------------908586735E9AB7CF110E285C Is there a reason why enamel has to be removed ? I know Garrisontalks about checking for "worm holes" but if strips are checked byflexing and form setting accounts for enamel thickness what other reasonis(s) there to remove it. I like the looks of it, kind of goes good withthe Purple glue on some test strips I tried. Is applying a finish on theenamel a problem (i.e. penetration, holding power etc.??), has anybodydone it this way? --------------908586735E9AB7CF110E285C removed? I know Garrison talks about checking for "worm holes" but if strips arechecked by flexing and form setting accounts for enamel thickness whatother reason is(s) there to remove it. I like the looks of it, kind ofgoes good with the Purple glue on some test strips I tried. Is applyinga finish on the enamel a problem (i.e. penetration, holding power etc.??),has anybody done it this way? --------------908586735E9AB7CF110E285C-- from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Apr 15 19:28:13 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Russ, When Y2K hits and we're all rubbing sticks together tokeep warm and eating stray cats for nourishment, Iwant to be around you. You have a wonderful way oflooking at the positive side of things. When we brought the cold rolled steel, dowels, andscrews to machinist number one, there wasn't any snowon the ground. When we got the forms back frommachinist number two, there wasn't any snow on theground. There was a whole snowy season somewhere inbetween. We learned that machinists live in somewarped area of the universe where time runs moreslowly. When a machinist says the forms will be donein two weeks, he means two months, or perhaps more.Also, because time and space are so intrinsicallylinked in the machinist universe, 60 degree groovesare at times 45 degree grooves. Einstein discoveredthat space can bend. Machinists put that theory intopractice. Thanks to the generosity of a sometime list member, Iwas lent forms for the winter, allowing me to planetwo rods. I think it would have driven me nuts to readthis list, collect tapers, build a binder and oven,and not be able to plane a rod because a machinist wastrying to figure out he math required to cut thegroove. Russ, you are definitely a zen-filled guy theway you targeted two years for the completion of yourfirst rod. I'd suggest: get a machinist to do everything but thegroove. They seem to be good at milling things flat,drilling holes, tapping, and assembly. Plus, this workwould probably be fairly cheap, I'd suspect around the$100-$150 range. The groove is where things get reallyugly. With all this done, there's only the groove totackle yourselves. If you don't want to do the groove,perhaps search out a tool and die maker to make thegroove. from what I have heard, tool and die makersare much more accustomed to performing the type ofprecise operation we need done. I must say, though, that in the end I got a set offorms and made a couple of good friends along the way.I suppose this was worth it after all. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Anachemrpo@aol.comSent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Would-be rodmakers: A while back I posted a response aboutRichard Nantel, Brian Sturrock and Ihaving not one, but two machinists makeforms for each of us. I also said I'dpost how it turned out since just abouteveryone says that having a machinistmake forms for you is not the way to go. First off let me say that is *was* a tough haul.Our first machinist made no end of errorsbut essentially got our six footforms milled flat, bored and tapped withset and caps screws. One of theforms came out really warped, one had apartial 45* groove and one had acouple of scars that became known among thethree of us a "seal bites". Thefirst machinist reneged and refused to cutthe groove for us. Brian took the seal bite forms and cut hisgroove on his own. I''ll let himelaborate on that. I found a local machinist ( the first onewas near Richard and Brian inMontreal ) who had made a set of planingforms a few years earlier foranother guy (Neal speak up, I know you'reout there ). This machinist had to take two attempts toget the grooves right in Richardand my forms, but finally did. We had himundercut the grooves by .010"against Jack Howell's specs. They came out with some stations right onand some .005" to .008" off. Theimportant part is that there were no bigjumps that couldn't be compensated The total cost for materials and machinistservices came out (in US $) to beessentially the cost of the pre-made formsavailable form Maine orColorado...about $325. I personally found rewards in doing it thisway and wouldn't have it anyother way. I didn't want to make my ownforms from the ground up and Ididn't really want a set of "store bought"ones either... Popular wisdom on this subject ( my ownpersonal quirks not withstanding) isprobably correct about not trying to have amachinist make forms foryou...but I'm happy with both the resultsand the process... Russ Lavigne from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Apr 15 19:43:35 1999 Subject: Re: Posts Brian,I'm reading you loud and clear. Dave L. from jackdale@uswest.net Thu Apr 15 20:17:08 1999 (209.180.251.153) Subject: Re: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Just because the sign out front says "machinist," it doesn't necessarilyfollow that the guy inside is a craftsman. Get and check references anddon't hire the shop until the references check out. It's kinda like anyother professional, maybe even a rodmaker. Richard Nantel wrote: Russ, When Y2K hits and we're all rubbing sticks together tokeep warm and eating stray cats for nourishment, Iwant to be around you. You have a wonderful way oflooking at the positive side of things. When we brought the cold rolled steel, dowels, andscrews to machinist number one, there wasn't any snowon the ground. When we got the forms back frommachinist number two, there wasn't any snow on theground. There was a whole snowy season somewhere inbetween. We learned that machinists live in somewarped area of the universe where time runs moreslowly. When a machinist says the forms will be donein two weeks, he means two months, or perhaps more.Also, because time and space are so intrinsicallylinked in the machinist universe, 60 degree groovesare at times 45 degree grooves. Einstein discoveredthat space can bend. Machinists put that theory intopractice. Thanks to the generosity of a sometime list member, Iwas lent forms for the winter, allowing me to planetwo rods. I think it would have driven me nuts to readthis list, collect tapers, build a binder and oven,and not be able to plane a rod because a machinist wastrying to figure out he math required to cut thegroove. Russ, you are definitely a zen-filled guy theway you targeted two years for the completion of yourfirst rod. I'd suggest: get a machinist to do everything but thegroove. They seem to be good at milling things flat,drilling holes, tapping, and assembly. Plus, this workwould probably be fairly cheap, I'd suspect around the$100-$150 range. The groove is where things get reallyugly. With all this done, there's only the groove totackle yourselves. If you don't want to do the groove,perhaps search out a tool and die maker to make thegroove. from what I have heard, tool and die makersare much more accustomed to performing the type ofprecise operation we need done. I must say, though, that in the end I got a set offorms and made a couple of good friends along the way.I suppose this was worth it after all. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Anachemrpo@aol.comSent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Would-be rodmakers: A while back I posted a response aboutRichard Nantel, Brian Sturrock and Ihaving not one, but two machinists makeforms for each of us. I also said I'dpost how it turned out since just abouteveryone says that having a machinistmake forms for you is not the way to go. First off let me say that is *was* a tough haul.Our first machinist made no end of errorsbut essentially got our six footforms milled flat, bored and tapped withset and caps screws. One of theforms came out really warped, one had apartial 45* groove and one had acouple of scars that became known among thethree of us a "seal bites". Thefirst machinist reneged and refused to cutthe groove for us. Brian took the seal bite forms and cut hisgroove on his own. I''ll let himelaborate on that. I found a local machinist ( the first onewas near Richard and Brian inMontreal ) who had made a set of planingforms a few years earlier foranother guy (Neal speak up, I know you'reout there ). This machinist had to take two attempts toget the grooves right in Richardand my forms, but finally did. We had himundercut the grooves by .010"against Jack Howell's specs. They came out with some stations right onand some .005" to .008" off. Theimportant part is that there were no bigjumps that couldn't be compensated The total cost for materials and machinistservices came out (in US $) to beessentially the cost of the pre-made formsavailable form Maine orColorado...about $325. I personally found rewards in doing it thisway and wouldn't have it anyother way. I didn't want to make my ownforms from the ground up and Ididn't really want a set of "store bought"ones either... Popular wisdom on this subject ( my ownpersonal quirks not withstanding) isprobably correct about not trying to have amachinist make forms foryou...but I'm happy with both the resultsand the process... Russ Lavigne from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Apr 15 20:29:05 1999 Internet Mail Serversims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, Subject: RE: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Jack, You're right. I shouldn't lump all machinists into thesame category. I hope I didn't insult someone outthere who may be a machinist and a craftsman. My apologies, Richard -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, April 15, 1999 9:17 PM Cc: Anachemrpo@aol.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Contracted forms...FYI for newbies Just because the sign out front says"machinist," it doesn't necessarilyfollow that the guy inside is a craftsman.Get and check references anddon't hire the shop until the referencescheck out. It's kinda like anyother professional, maybe even a rodmaker. from BambooRods@aol.com Thu Apr 15 21:21:08 1999 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods please post the tapers from MasjC1@aol.com Thu Apr 15 21:22:32 1999 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Ray, I built A. J. Thramer's 4'4" 4wt as a one piece and fished it last summer. It is a great little rod for the small headwater streams that I like to fish in the central Colorado Rockies. It is fast and will throw a surprising amount of line for such a small stick. I enjoyed it and have thought about building another as a two piece for backpacking. Perhaps in the fall. I would be interested in having the tapers posted for your small rods. Mark Cole from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 15 21:24:36 1999 with ESMTP id ;Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:24:03 +0000 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Ray, Great idea!! I was fortunate enough to cast, among lots of others, anexample of A.J.Thramer's 444 this past weekend (Thanks Art!!). What agreat little rod!! I'm going to make one (or two) very soon! I lovesmall rods and light tackle so this was really a great opportunity forme. This rod isn't really what I would call "dainty" (my definition)since it's designed to cast a 4 weight, but it's certainly on theshorter side of the flyrod spectrum. I also like tiny rods that mightthrow a 2 or 3 weight. We have lots of very small streams here in NJ,so this "genre" works very well here. You've piqued my interest!! Thanks, Dennis Ray Gould wrote: Hi Gang, Perhaps we should have some discourse about "dainty" fly rods. By that Ireally mean really short fly rods for fairly light fly lines. I've workedon a couple that bring this issue to mind. One was an Orvis Mitey Mite 5ftx 2pc x 1 1/2ounce little gem and the other was the smallest I've seenyet,a Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce beauty. While these were cutelittle rods I wonder about the practicability of such a creations and justwhy, where and how folks would use one. I'd be interested to learn ofyourexperiences in this area. I have the tapers of the above two rods and willpost if there is any interest.Ray from FishYarn@aol.com Thu Apr 15 22:25:32 1999 Subject: William J. Porter or Foster Rod? Hi, I just picked up a 8'6" 2/1 rod with the hand written inscription "William J. Porter or Foster, Flynt Michigan" with a date of 1988/83/33 or 38. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Possibly a local builder orrefinisher? TIA. Jim LoweJivita@aol.comThe Bamboo Price Recordhttp://members.aol.com/fishyarn/pricerecord.htmlThe Pish Page http://members.aol.com/jivita/PishPage.htmlThe Berkeley Eskrima Club http://members.aol.com/EkaliArnis/BEC.html from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Apr 16 00:23:07 1999 Hi gang, Here's the two rod tapers:Orvis Mitey Mite 5ft x 2pc x 1 1/2 ounce:0 = 0.078, 5 = 0.089, 10 = 0.100, 15 = 0.108, 20 = 0.123, 25 = 0.140, 30 =0.160,35 = 0.183, 40 = 0.203, 45 = 0.221, 50 = 0.243, 55 = 0.258, 60 = 0.267. The Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce rod:0 = 0,070, 5 = 0.088, 10 = 0.107, 15 = 0.0.119, 20 = 0.133, 25 = 0.146. 30= 0.175,35 = 0.182, 40 = 0.190, 45 = 0.205 (estimate under cork). These dimensions were taken on unvarnished cane. Ray from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Apr 16 06:44:04 1999 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods I, for one, would love to see the tapers on these "dainty?" rods posted.Have been a "short rod" freak for over 50 years and, despite all of theirdisadvantages, I love to fish (and build) them. I have built 3 of A.J.Thramer's 4'4" 4 wt taper and they were fished extensively in Montanalastwinter, summer, and fall rather easily landing brown trout up to 22"withina very short amount of time. I gave two of them to a couple of localranchers and they are having a ball with the small rods. Yet a third onewanted to buy one. I now have it made and will simply give it to him in aweek or so. privately. Would love to build them. I also have a taper for an Orvis onepiece 6' 6 wt that is a very nice casting rod, if anyone is interested.J. SniderAt 03:59 PM 4/15/99 -0700, Ray Gould wrote:Hi Gang, Perhaps we should have some discourse about "dainty" fly rods. By that Ireally mean really short fly rods for fairly light fly lines. I've workedon a couple that bring this issue to mind. One was an Orvis Mitey Mite 5ftx 2pc x 1 1/2ounce little gem and the other was the smallest I've seenyet,a Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce beauty. While these were cutelittle rods I wonder about the practicability of such a creations and justwhy, where and how folks would use one. I'd be interested to learn of yourexperiences in this area. I have the tapers of the above two rods and willpost if there is any interest.Ray from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Fri Apr 16 08:19:34 1999 0400 Subject: Plane grooving Hi all, I know this is covered in the archives, but can anyone that has grooved the sole of their plane tell me what you suggest for the depth and width of the groove? I think I'm going to do it this weekend...Thanks...Andy from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Fri Apr 16 08:37:42 1999 199913:36:44 UT 16-1998)) id86256755.004A9B5A ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:34:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Jerry and Ray, Indeed, please post tapers to the list. Some of us collect them like finewine(won't comment on similarities in cost, though you should see my tapercellar). Best regards,-Ed Estlow from dryfly@erols.com Fri Apr 16 08:38:00 1999 Subject: Re: Plane grooving Check out the attached web sitehttp://www.lie- nielsen.com/ambp.tmpl?cart=3007100160527Click on rodmakers grove to see a picture andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Hi all, I know this is covered in the archives, but can anyone thathas grooved the sole of their plane tell me what you suggest for thedepth and width of the groove? I think I'm going to do it thisweekend...Thanks...Andy from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Apr 16 11:01:06 1999 Subject: Re: Dainty Rod Tapers rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Hello Ray - I thought you might like to see another version of the Mitey Mite. I took this taper off a rod about 15 years ago. 0-.084, 5-.096, 10-.105, 15- .125, 20-.134, 25-.146, 30-.162, 35-.16840-.184, 45-.203, 50-.228, 55-.246, 60-.262I found this rod to be able to cast a remarkably long line for it's size but the tip felt stiff and unresponsive, and it would not cast a tight loop. It also took too much effort to cast. Frankly, I thought Orvis had taken a spinning rod blank and put a flyrod handle on it. Still, you could see that the taper had potential. I added 6 inches to the butt, and lightened up the tip, and the result is the 5 1/2 footer I have listed at the web site. Your rod looks like it might cast OK as is since the butt is so much heavier, it might just drive the tip, and the tip looks a bit more flexible too. I wonder what your opinion of the casting ability of the rod is?-- Tom from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Fri Apr 16 11:57:07 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Fri, Subject: Grip shape The shape of a grip has an influence on how we hold afly rod. Shouldn't the shape of a grip be different hand doesn't need to hold the grip as tightly on ashort, light fly rod as it does for a heavier, longerrod. So, would it make sense to use a western grip ona light rod and a full wells grip on a longer rod? Ithink the full wells fills the hand more completely,perhaps allowing a stronger hold. What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. Any observations in this area? Richard from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Apr 16 12:15:31 1999 via smap (4.1) 10:21:27 PDT Subject: Peerless 7' taper A couple of listmembers have asked where to find the Peerless taper that Reed Curry posted a few years back to Rodmakers. The taper archive in Rodmakers is not all conclusive. There is another place with additional tapers are tucked away. These are primarily tapers that were posted tothe listserv by members. Go to Rodmakers, then click on the "Software" tab, then click on "Thanks to Frank Stetzer", then click on "taper archive". from there you can select the rodmaker or company name, in this caseBill Phillipson, and then access the various tapers posted for that particular rodmaker or company. Thanks to Frank Stetzer for setting up this imformation. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri Apr 16 12:21:05 1999 Subject: RE: Grip shape I always use a full wells grip on larger rods and a cigar grip on shorter,lighter line rods for that exact reason. I feel you have a bit more controlof the rod with a full wells and cigar grip gives a bit more delicacy. Although, a collector looked at one of my rods once and asked why I usedthewells grip. When I responded that it gave more control when fishing, helooked at me with a dumbfounded look, as if I would ever fish with abamboorod! Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel [SMTP:richard.nantel@videotron.ca]Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:56 AM Subject: Grip shape The shape of a grip has an influence on how we hold afly rod. Shouldn't the shape of a grip be different hand doesn't need to hold the grip as tightly on ashort, light fly rod as it does for a heavier, longerrod. So, would it make sense to use a western grip ona light rod and a full wells grip on a longer rod? Ithink the full wells fills the hand more completely,perhaps allowing a stronger hold. What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. Any observations in this area? Richard from jackdale@uswest.net Fri Apr 16 12:54:45 1999 (209.180.251.153) Subject: Re: Grip shape IMHO, the shape of the grip should fit the desires of the person forwhom the rod is being made. Aesthetics and ergonomy don't always yieldthe same result. Richard Nantel wrote: The shape of a grip has an influence on how we hold afly rod. Shouldn't the shape of a grip be different hand doesn't need to hold the grip as tightly on ashort, light fly rod as it does for a heavier, longerrod. So, would it make sense to use a western grip ona light rod and a full wells grip on a longer rod? Ithink the full wells fills the hand more completely,perhaps allowing a stronger hold. What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. Any observations in this area? Richard from dryfly@erols.com Fri Apr 16 13:17:08 1999 Subject: Re: Grip shape Richard, I usually change grip size and shape to fit the rod, that being smaller,cigar shape grips (blunt or tapered cigar) for lightweight rods up to7', western on 7 1/2 - 9' length lighter line weight rods and full wellson long and heavier line weight rods. However, I have seen a few shortrods with small full wells grips (5 to 5 1/2") that have been extremelycomfortable. I think Per Brandin has used the small full wells grips onhis rods. I believe Chris Bogart uses full wells grips on all his rodsand they also are quite comfortable. The western grip has been the gripof choice of graphite trout rods (Sage, Winston, T&T, etc.) for quitesome time now but back in the 70's it seemed that most rods had cigarshaped grips. So much of grip shape and size is dependent on thepersonal preferences of the builder or user/customer. Unless you'rebuilding rods to sell, I think you should use the grip that's the mostcomfortable and effective for you. I respect the builders who sell rodsand chose what they feel is the best grip for their rods and don't allowthe customer to change it. Bob Richard Nantel wrote: The shape of a grip has an influence on how we hold afly rod. Shouldn't the shape of a grip be different hand doesn't need to hold the grip as tightly on ashort, light fly rod as it does for a heavier, longerrod. So, would it make sense to use a western grip ona light rod and a full wells grip on a longer rod? Ithink the full wells fills the hand more completely,perhaps allowing a stronger hold. What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. Any observations in this area? Richard from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Apr 16 13:18:13 1999 LAA21837 (5.5.2407.0) I'm planning on making a 3 piece 8 foot rod for my next one and waswondering what wouldbe a good one to make. I fish western water and like a medium to fastaction. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Fri Apr 16 13:42:10 1999 don") bysmtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Fri, 16 Apr 199912:41:45 - 0600 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Ray, Don't know if a 6"er qualifies, but I've finally got a 6' 2 wt. that Ireally like - been working on the 2 wt. thing for about 6 or so years and1/2 dozen poles. This one has been used mostly for small creek work withnolarger than # 12 dries. Fish it about 1/2 dozen times/year. No idea howlong it will last. Used about the lightest fittings I could. Cedar for thereel seat insert and very thin slip rings. Runs outta gas about 50 ft. nomatter how hard you haul it. Don At 03:59 PM 4/15/99 -0700, Ray Gould wrote:Hi Gang, Perhaps we should have some discourse about "dainty" fly rods. By that Ireally mean really short fly rods for fairly light fly lines. I've workedon a couple that bring this issue to mind. One was an Orvis Mitey Mite 5ftx 2pc x 1 1/2ounce little gem and the other was the smallest I've seenyet,a Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce beauty. While these were cutelittle rods I wonder about the practicability of such a creations and justwhy, where and how folks would use one. I'd be interested to learn of yourexperiences in this area. I have the tapers of the above two rods and willpost if there is any interest.Ray from saweiss@flash.net Fri Apr 16 14:32:36 1999 Subject: Re: Grip shape Just a quick correction, offered without any pejorative intent, after checking my Webster's, the word should be "ergonomics".Steve What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Fri Apr 16 15:07:59 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Fri, Subject: RE: Grip shape Thanks, Steve. Ergonomics it is. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Steven WeissSent: Friday, April 16, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Grip shape Just a quick correction, offered without any pejorative intent, after checking my Webster's, the word should be "ergonomics".Steve What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Fri Apr 16 16:24:43 1999 mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Magazine boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE882D.E22F2940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE882D.E22F2940 Has anyone seen a copy of the Bamboo Fly Rod magazine lately or haven't =I been getting mine? Jack ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE882D.E22F2940 Has anyone seen a copy of the Bamboo Fly Rod = or haven't I been getting mine? Jack ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BE882D.E22F2940-- from djk762@hotmail.com Fri Apr 16 17:21:52 1999 Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:23:32 PDT Rodmakers, What is the optimum temperature for the storage of bamboo?Will a hot (100+) garage or attic be detrimental over a long period? Thanks All. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from jkallo@midwest.net Fri Apr 16 17:57:07 1999 Subject: PHY Princess List, Hey guys I picked one of these rods up today in an antique shop for $15! Okay, not really. Anyone happen to have the taper for this model that theywould mind sharing? Thanks as always,Joe Joseph S. KalloDpt. of PhilosophySouthern Illinois University at Carbondale from mschaffer@mindspring.com Fri Apr 16 18:15:33 1999 Subject: Sole Groove- Question Having heard about and seen (in pictures) the groove that is sometimes cutin the sole of the plane, I was wondering if the part of the blade outsidethe groove location still digs into the form, or is that portion of theblade left dull? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Mike from brookie@frii.com Fri Apr 16 18:26:17 1999 Subject: Temps to Store Bamboo david just wrote : Rodmakers, What is the optimum temperature for the storage of bamboo? Will a hot (100+) garage or attic bedetrimental over a long period? Let me ask an expansion of that question. It's pertinent to right now,right here. Not sure David was asking about the culms of bamboo -or-finished product. My tangential question would be specific to the cane rods. I have a badhabit of leaving all my fishing gear, to include graphite and cane rods intheir 'cases' outside in the truck. The cases are usually the pvc pipeinside a commercial DB dun type of case. All locked up of course. Butstill, the temps in Colorado plummet down to the high 30's right now. I'm interested if the cold affects them. thanks in advance,sue from rsgould@cmc.net Fri Apr 16 20:57:29 1999 Subject: Grip Shape Hi to all, I've noticed a very strong preference by the customer to personally selectthe exact type of grip he or she wants. I've even had some make a sketch ofthe grip with dimensions. On custom rods it's better to satisfy thecustomer than to impose my own preference, just another little thing thathelps make the rod special for the buyer. Then too I've noticed that on rods like the "dainty" ones we've beendiscussing that the grips tend to be very short (5" to 5 1/2") and equippedwith light weight seats such as sliding bands on cork. Men with largehandsseem to like grips that are about 7" long with about an even split betweencigar, half wells, full wells and western. Ray from channer@hubwest.com Fri Apr 16 21:03:11 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AC3875601D4; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:04:40 MST Subject: Re: Sole Groove- Question At 07:11 PM 4/16/99 -0400, michael w. shaffer wrote:Having heard about and seen (in pictures) the groove that is sometimescutin the sole of the plane, I was wondering if the part of the blade outsidethe groove location still digs into the form, or is that portion of theblade left dull? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Mike Mike;The idea is to adjust the blade so that it does not touch the form. Thegroove allows you plane the cane only, thus keeping the blade from gettingdull on the form. You have to adjust the form to be a liitle smaller thanthe taper calls for. I set my form to the taper as called for, then planethe first strip flush, measure it and then re-adjust the form to correct bladeadjustment in your plane. i can plane a whole set of 18 strips withouthaving to resharpen the blade. John from channer@hubwest.com Fri Apr 16 21:05:09 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id ACB075F01D4; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:06:40 MST Subject: Re: Temps to Store Bamboo At 05:25 PM 4/16/99 -0600, SueK wrote: david just wrote : Rodmakers, What is the optimum temperature for the storage of bamboo? Will a hot (100+) garage or attic bedetrimental over a long period? Let me ask an expansion of that question. It's pertinent to right now,right here. Not sure David was asking about the culms of bamboo -or-finished product. My tangential question would be specific to the cane rods. I have a badhabit of leaving all my fishing gear, to include graphite and cane rods intheir 'cases' outside in the truck. The cases are usually the pvc pipeinside a commercial DB dun type of case. All locked up of course. Butstill, the temps in Colorado plummet down to the high 30's right now. I'm interested if the cold affects them. thanks in advance,sue sue;My rods live in my truck(van)right behind the drivers seat year around, noill effects so far. The oldest one has been there 4 years so far.John from sats@gte.net Fri Apr 16 21:54:06 1999 Subject: Re: Mounting ferrules This went so well I'm now thinking I didn't do thisright and the tip will come flying off with the firstgood double haul. Shouldn't this be tough? Richard, I've mounted several Ferrules over the last two to three years and foundthat ifyou take your time turning down the bamboo, there's little problem. I've had one ferrule come lose. Upon examination I found that I hadn'talloweda way for the air in the ferrule to escape, when I pushed it on. The gluestopped about 1/3 of the way from the end of the ferrule. A simple vgrove(very small) along one side of the bamboo would have fixed this -- and did,thesecond time around. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from chris@artistree.com Sat Apr 17 00:48:18 1999 Subject: Re: Grip Shape If you think that's bad...I got guys who insist on supplying their OWN grips.Pain in the behind reaming those things out. Have to go slow and pray alittle, but whatever makes them happy makes me happy :) --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Ray Gould wrote: ...I've even had some make a sketch of the grip with dimensions. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Apr 17 08:21:59 1999 Subject: Re: Grip shape At 01:32 PM 4/16/1999 -0600, Steven Weiss wrote:Just a quick correction, offered without any pejorative intent, after checking my Webster's, the word should be "ergonomics".Steve What we need here is an in-depth study on the ergonomyof fly rod grips. A thing that I have noticed is that on many grips, particularly cigar andreverse half-Wells, I change my hand position depending on the length ofthe cast, the level of my fatigue etc. I find that I get cramps in my handif I can't move slightly to get a diferent diameter to grasp every oneceand a while. I think that the only way to find out what grip suits you isto fish with several types. -DougDoug EastonTonawanda, NY from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 17 09:33:46 1999 Subject: planing forms I loaned my planing forms to a fellow rodmaker that was having troublewith the forms he was having made. He finally got his forms completed atanother machineshop and wanted to return my forms. I suggested that heplaned up a strip on his forms at the same setting as my forms and thenput the strip into my form and compare the difference between the two.It would have been interesting to have found out what happens in betweenthe 5in stations.Perhaps all accuracy of hand planing is only a perception and all therods being built are in fact unique.T.Ackland from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Apr 17 09:52:19 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:52:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Don,I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see that little 2 weighttaper. I've found that the general public really seems to be on a light linekick right now, perhaps because of the trend in graphites.If you get a few minutes to post that taper I will appreciate it. BTW,madea couple of 7'6" 2 weights based on the Sir D taper. They cast like adream,but may be a little long for really tight conditions. Thanks,Harry Boyd Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Don't know if a 6"er qualifies, but I've finally got a 6' 2 wt. that Ireally like - been working on the 2 wt. thing for about 6 or so years and1/2 dozen poles. This one has been used mostly for small creek workwith nolarger than # 12 dries. Fish it about 1/2 dozen times/year. No idea howlong it will last. Used about the lightest fittings I could. Cedar for thereel seat insert and very thin slip rings. Runs outta gas about 50 ft. nomatter how hard you haul it. Don from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Apr 17 10:01:33 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:01:29 -0500 Subject: Re: storage temps David,Your garage cannot be any hotter than mine in Louisiana. It will befine for raw culms, but maybe not the best idea for finished rods.**But Sue,** in our summer temperatures I would never leave a rod in mycar for long periods of time. In the car temperatures can get to nearly200 degrees. Might not hurt the rod, but it sure won't help it. Can'tsay much about cold, but I've never found ice in the guides to hurt therod.Harry from RMargiotta@aol.com Sat Apr 17 12:05:17 1999 Subject: A short but not so dainty fly rod I have a 6'0" Orvis Superfine 1 piece rod that takes a DT5 line so Iwouldn't go it dainty. I've only cast it so far (not fished it) and it is rather fast with a stiff tip. It has a short "torpedo" shaped grip and an all cork reel seat with dual aluminum sliding bands. The whole thing only weighs 1 7/8oz. It seems perfect for the small pocket water here in the Southern Appalachians. The taper follows. The stress curve has been saved onFrank Stezer's on-line hexrod under the name "sfine". --Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 0.074 5 0.092 10 0.11215 0.122 20 0.135 25 0.150 30 0.156 35 0.169 40 0.179 45 0.192 50 0.204 55 0.221 60 0.240 65 0.268 from chris@artistree.com Sat Apr 17 12:38:52 1999 Subject: Re: storage temps Actually, studies have shown that it can get up to 240 F degrees inside ofa car.--Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Harry Boyd wrote: ....In the car temperatures can get to nearly 200 degrees. from mrj@aa.net Sat Apr 17 13:14:14 1999 Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:14:09 -0700 Subject: RE: storage temps I remember one time about 30 years ago or so when a friend and I decideditwould be really neat to see how hot we could get the inside of his FordFalcon Sedan. We sat inside of the car in the hot sun and turned up theheat. It got to 130 degrees and then we did something else. Do you think itcaused any braaaaaain damage?Now I'm building Bamboo rods. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: storage temps Actually, studies have shown that it can get up to 240 F degrees inside ofa car.--Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Harry Boyd wrote: ....In the car temperatures can get to nearly 200 degrees. from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Apr 17 13:38:17 1999 Subject: Storage temperature Hi Gang,It's a good question. I suppose the ideal situation is to store finishedrods in a warm dry place. I can tell you that I have stored several of myolder rods (that's a nice way of saying "clunkers") year around in my cabinup in the mountains of B.C. where the summer temperature can get over100farhenheit in the summer and down to 35 below zero in the winter with noill effects. What is important is to be sure the rod is dry before puttingit away in the rod case.Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Apr 17 14:01:43 1999 Subject: Storing cane rods and bamboo rods together Hi Sue,Forgive me but I can't pass up this opportunity. One of the early lessonsin cane rod building is in developing loyalty to the bamboo rod and at thesame time being sensitive to the feelings of the synthetics like graphite(they do feelings you know). A number of studies undertaken a aprestigiousUniversity have shown conclusively that graphite rods suffer from aninferiority complex if stored in the vicinity of a cane rod and becomepractically useless. Then too it is rumored (and this is still somewhatconfidential) that when exposed to high storage temperatures for a brieftime graphite suffers from polarized depolymerization and defiberalseparation. I am confident however, that you can instantly remedy thesituation by removing the graphite rods and using them in your garden aspea poles.Ray from jackdale@uswest.net Sat Apr 17 14:23:09 1999 (209.180.251.153) Subject: Re: Storing cane rods and bamboo rods together Folks, the direction this thread is heading points out the extremenecessity andvarnishes. Not having it can be pleasant but, apparently, it can also be fartoo recreational. Ray Gould wrote: Hi Sue,Forgive me but I can't pass up this opportunity. One of the early lessonsin cane rod building is in developing loyalty to the bamboo rod and at thesame time being sensitive to the feelings of the synthetics like graphite(they do feelings you know). A number of studies undertaken a aprestigiousUniversity have shown conclusively that graphite rods suffer from aninferiority complex if stored in the vicinity of a cane rod and becomepractically useless. Then too it is rumored (and this is still somewhatconfidential) that when exposed to high storage temperatures for a brieftime graphite suffers from polarized depolymerization and defiberalseparation. I am confident however, that you can instantly remedy thesituation by removing the graphite rods and using them in your garden aspea poles.Ray from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Apr 17 15:30:21 1999 (8.8.5/8.7.3)with ESMTP id PAA01390 for ; Sat, 17 Apr1999 15:30:53 - 0500 Subject: Splitting I finally got enough courage to split the lowerhalf of my culm for the butt sections.. I am stillhaving a problem with run off. I did manage to get12 good strips and 6 usable ? ones. I have lookedin the books I have and none really address thisproblem or I missed it some where.I know you need to bend the bamboo to direct thesplit but I did not achieve that. I tried bendingthe direction that I wanted the split to go andthen away from where I wanted it to go. It stillwent where it wanted to go. The other problem Ihad is the bamboo splitting the power fibers at asharp angle to the culm.I have seen Wayne splitstrips so narrow that I thought they were scrap.He made it look easy.Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sat Apr 17 16:18:36 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.83l.R) for ; Sat, 17 Apr 199917:13:49 -0400 Subject: Taper Recommendation Needed I am traveling to Alaska July9th-17th with my best buddy and I would liketofind a taper for a 8' or 8'6" rod that would work good up there for trout,and salmon. I would prefer a 3 piece rod for travel purposes. Any and all suggestionswould be helpful. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sat Apr 17 18:19:29 1999 don") bysmtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Sat, 17 Apr 199917:19:12 - 0600 Subject: Re: Dainty fly rods Harry, Here is the taper. Parentage was started by a Leonard # 39. Evolved fromthere over 5>6 rods and several years. Have landed cuts up to 19" on it. Nobig fish so far. Don 0 - .0605 - .06910- .08915 .10420 .11425 .12630 .14035 .15640 .17045 .18250 .19655 .21160 .22565 .23970 .253 At 09:53 AM 4/17/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Don,I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see that little 2 weighttaper. I've found that the general public really seems to be on a light linekick right now, perhaps because of the trend in graphites.If you get a few minutes to post that taper I will appreciate it.BTW, madea couple of 7'6" 2 weights based on the Sir D taper. They cast like adream,but may be a little long for really tight conditions. Thanks,Harry Boyd Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Don't know if a 6"er qualifies, but I've finally got a 6' 2 wt. that Ireally like - been working on the 2 wt. thing for about 6 or so years and1/2 dozen poles. This one has been used mostly for small creek workwith nolarger than # 12 dries. Fish it about 1/2 dozen times/year. No idea howlong it will last. Used about the lightest fittings I could. Cedar for thereel seat insert and very thin slip rings. Runs outta gas about 50 ft. nomatter how hard you haul it. Don from brookie@frii.com Sat Apr 17 18:54:55 1999 Subject: Re: Grip Shape Well, a quick insert here from Colorado cane lady, the grip is critical tome. All my graphite rods have hadcustom-built grips. I insist on trying and retrying the 'fit' as the rodis being assembled. Sanding down the cork is no biggie and certainly doesNOT take much time. So why not have a perfect one ? With a smallerhand,the grip IS important. Factor in, I am holding it sometimes hours on end.If not comfortable and precisely the 'right fit', can ( I think ) lead tohand and wrist fatigue. As for the canes I have, weren't built to MYspecs, so have to live with what was created. But I guarantee you, when IDO have that first cane done for me, it will have just the right cork. mmmm, this brings up another question ( this tangential stuff IS greatisn't it ? ), are there other 'good' grip materials, other than cork ?Suspect that wood was used once upon a time. Anything else that canemakers use ? suecolorado from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Sat Apr 17 19:31:46 1999 Subject: Re: Grip Shape Sue says... mmmm, this brings up another question ( this tangential stuff IS greatisn't it ? ), are there other 'good' grip materials, other than cork ?Suspect that wood was used once upon a time. Anything else that canemakers use ? rather than 1/4". I'd be interested in some thoughts, there, too. David from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Apr 17 21:37:29 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A5801BE0166; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:37:52 EDT Subject: Re: Grip Shape Sue,I've seen old rods with1/ sheet cork2/ rattan-wound3/ cord-wound4/ plain wood5/ fluted woodand the cork rings are the best, by far. I favor the narrowest rings I canfind, just 'cause I like the look.Best regards,ReedSueK wrote: mmmm, this brings up another question ( this tangential stuff IS greatisn't it ? ), are there other 'good' grip materials, other than cork ?Suspect that wood was used once upon a time. Anything else that canemakers use ? suecolorado from teekay35@interlynx.net Sat Apr 17 22:59:28 1999 Subject: Old Reel This is not a "rod" question, but if anyone can help me identify an oldreel, please contact me off list. The reel is approx. 4" dia. x 1 1/2" wide, well made, and is in the styleof, but not exactly like the Hardy Silex, and marked in a circular patternwith the following: ING. J. HOLMT. HJEM from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 17 23:41:22 1999 Subject: who's rod Earlier today I was looking at that new cane rod magazine web site, theone that has had distribution problems. There was cover depicted thatshowed a guy with a rod bent double and I would be interested to know ifthe taper was a computer generated one or a copy from a "classic"?Terry Ackland from brookie@frii.com Sun Apr 18 06:21:20 1999 Subject: Re: Storing cane rods and bamboo rods together (sic?) Ray, i read and re-read that subject line a couple of times, and was thinking Ihad made a faux pas in describing something, then I just concluded thatperhaps cane makers are akin to all other artisians, a half bubble offplumb at times ( no offense meant Ray ) ? but surely not when they planenor glue of course ! straight and true, third star to the left .... oninto morning ( with apologies to ST and PP fans ) ... Hi Sue,Forgive me but I can't pass up this opportunity. One of the early lessonsin cane rod building is in developing loyalty to the bamboo rod and at thesame time being sensitive to the feelings of the synthetics like graphite(they do feelings you know). A number of studies undertaken a aprestigiousUniversity have shown conclusively that graphite rods suffer from aninferiority complex if stored in the vicinity of a cane rod and becomepractically useless. Then too it is rumored (and this is still somewhatconfidential) that when exposed to high storage temperatures for a brieftime graphite suffers from polarized depolymerization and defiberalseparation. I am confident however, that you can instantly remedy thesituation by removing the graphite rods and using them in your garden aspea poles. Well, not to be too hasty here in joining this bandwagon ofStake-The- Tomatoes-With-GLXs, but knowing a little of what you speak, Iwonder if those slate gray graphites of mine will go the way of the glassones. Sad to say that some of those aren't even in rod cases anymore !They are standing up in a corner, in the basement. Over the years, a kidor two will find them, use them as parry and thrust weapons of choice andattempt to impale their sibling. Or at least whack them. Yes, I know of what you say Ray ... *S* suecolorado from briansr@point-net.com Sun Apr 18 08:14:15 1999 0000 Subject: Re:Contracted forms...FYI for newbies I'll concure with Rick Crenshaw Re: making your own forms. I was in withRichard Nantel & Russ Lavigne on the machinist's route .After machinist#1balked @ grooving I decided to tackle this myself.As Russ mentioned I hadthe form with the circular milling marks on it. I re"milled" the sufaceusing a recessed grinding stone fitted on an industrial drill press (thepater-in-law's) This setup worked pretty well and produced a levelsurfacewith only a 2 thou varience from one end to the other.I followed TomPenrose's excellent advice for the grooving.(Tom also helped with an e-mailrequest for a clarification) I probably overdid the search to produceperfect depths 2 each station( all spot on except for station #3(3thou toodeep) on the tip side and # 13 2 thou too deep on the butt side. Would Itackle it again ?ABSOLUTELY.That being said I would probably dress theCRSfirst give it to a machinist to drill & tap the forms and then finish offthe job myself.I'll pass along the following adviceUSE GLOVES!!!!!!!!!If you get out of tolerence at a station mark off one inch marks to thestations on either side and check to see if the gradient is gradual anddoesn't jump.Use the 60% lathe bit tool AND the imbedded file tool to get satisfactaryAND fast results.Cheers Brian from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sun Apr 18 08:29:58 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: Storing cane rods and bamboo rods together (sic?) On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, SueK wrote: Hi Sue,Forgive me but I can't pass up this opportunity. One of the early lessonsin cane rod building is in developing loyalty to the bamboo rod and atthesame time being sensitive to the feelings of the synthetics likegraphite(they do feelings you know). A number of studies undertaken a aprestigiousUniversity have shown conclusively that graphite rods suffer from aninferiority complex if stored in the vicinity of a cane rod and becomepractically useless. Then too it is rumored (and this is still somewhatconfidential) that when exposed to high storage temperatures for abrieftime graphite suffers from polarized depolymerization and defiberalseparation. I am confident however, that you can instantly remedy thesituation by removing the graphite rods and using them in your gardenaspea poles. Well, not to be too hasty here in joining this bandwagon ofStake-The- Tomatoes-With-GLXs, but knowing a little of what you speak,Iwonder if those slate gray graphites of mine will go the way of the glassones. Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast the new HardyGlass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it's a "good way"! And Ray's"pea pole" crack demonstrates that his sensitivity training course was acomplete failure . Regards,\|/Bob ::==,#=#*oFly Supplies: (_ /|\ http://expage.com/page/flysupplieshttp://www.freeyellow.com/members4/flysupplies/ from brookie@frii.com Sun Apr 18 09:05:24 1999 Subject: cracking glass, staking graphite, celebrating cane bob wrote, Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast thenew Hardy Glass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it's a "good way"! And Ray's "pea pole" crack demonstrates thathis sensitivity training course was a complete failure . tis okay, Ray and I have this great Victory Garden going with enormous tomatoes, beans and raspberry bushes that areso ladened they want to hang to the ground ! and only theGLX and RP and new Scotts will do as stakes ! :-)) appears to me that rod materials are cyclical. You live longenough and you see 'it' return. to whit, cane is in resurgence, glass apparently is ... okay so I'll hang onto thegraphite, clean if off after gardening season and stick inthe corner with the GlassWay collection ... good to see you on here Bob, didn't know you were acane man... sue from robert.kope@cwix.com Sun Apr 18 10:34:03 1999 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:33:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: who's rod Terry, Acording to the cedits on the title page, that's Per Brandin with a Leonard40L. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message----- Subject: who's rod Earlier today I was looking at that new cane rod magazine web site, theone that has had distribution problems. There was cover depicted thatshowed a guy with a rod bent double and I would be interested to know ifthe taper was a computer generated one or a copy from a "classic"?Terry Ackland from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sun Apr 18 10:37:48 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: cracking jokes, staking vampires, celebrating flyfishing On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, SueK wrote: bob wrote, Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast thenew Hardy Glass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it's a "good way"! And Ray's "pea pole" crack demonstrates thathis sensitivity training course was a complete failure . tis okay, Ray and I have this great Victory Garden going with enormous tomatoes, beans and raspberry bushes that areso ladened they want to hang to the ground ! and only theGLX and RP and new Scotts will do as stakes ! :-)) Try the Heliply. appears to me that rod materials are cyclical. You live longenough and you see 'it' return. Well it only took Hardy 80 or so years to bring back the Bougle!I wonder if anyone has lived long enough to see this happen? to whit, cane is in resurgence, glass apparently is ... okay so I'll hang onto thegraphite, Someone has to, I certainly ain't collecting GLXs . clean if off after gardening season and stick inthe corner with the GlassWay collection ... good to see you on here Bob, didn't know you were acane man... I'm not. I'm a flyrod/flyreel junkie. Will fish anything you hand me aslong as they are rising. Going out shortly. Gonna fish glass in yourhonor tonight! Or maybe an old Loomis IM6... Hmmm, should I break out theLeonard 7 footer? I think not.... Maybe the Orvis 4wt. Been dying allWinter to try out this new cane rod I picked up. Loaded a Robichaud reelwith some XPS DT line. Yes, wild brookies on LI, let's do it! Regards,\|/Bob ::==,#=#*oFly Supplies: (_ /|\ http://expage.com/page/flysupplieshttp://www.freeyellow.com/members4/flysupplies/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Apr 18 11:09:03 1999 Subject: Re: who's rod Robert,a very good workout for an old rod ? I should think that many cotemporaryrodswould require several weeks rest to return to normal after being stresseslikethat!.I do not think they used carpenters glue at Leonard'sTerry "robert.kope" wrote: Terry, Acording to the cedits on the title page, that's Per Brandin with aLeonard40L. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 9:46 PMSubject: who's rod Earlier today I was looking at that new cane rod magazine web site, theone that has had distribution problems. There was cover depicted thatshowed a guy with a rod bent double and I would be interested to knowifthe taper was a computer generated one or a copy from a "classic"?Terry Ackland from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Apr 18 11:14:34 1999 Subject: ferrule fitting Terry K's recent email about using an air escape groove for ferrule fittingcompells me to add my 2 cents worth on the topic. First off I'll admit thatI have experienced the same phenomenon of sliding a ferrule into positionand then watching it back off due to the compressed air inside.Certainly ferrule fitting is one of the most critical steps in rod buildingand there is nothing quite so embarrassing as having a ferrule pull off therod during a demonstration.What I've concluded is that when this happens I didn't have the ferrulefitted tightly enough in the first place. The ferrule should be fitted tothe cane tightly enough so that it needs to be warmed up a bit just priorto installation and then gently driven home with a wood mallet. It helps tocarefully apply a thin coat of adhesive to the entire surface of the canewhere the ferrule will be seated. I've had wonderful success usingUrethaneBond glue as the adhesive.A caution: Be extra careful if you're installing an Orvis ferrule sincesome of theirs were made with a transparent plastic moisture dam on theinside which is easily damaged by heating and can be pushed out ofpositiontoo. Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Apr 18 11:42:45 1999 Subject: A rod for Alaska Hi Joe, I have a recommendation for you since I took a trip to Alaska last summerin August where we floated the Salmon River out of Aniak for 8 days and80miles, wow, what an adventure. I fished only with my cane rods and welanded Grayling, Rainbow, Char, Sockeye Salmon, Chum Salmon and SilverSalmon. Here's the taper of one of the rods: RR-95-8 1/4 ft (99" long) x7wt : 0= 0.079, 5=.084, 10= 0.102, 15= 0.118, 20= 0.134, 25=0.146, 30= 0.160, 35= 0.172, 40= 0.184, 45= 0.196, 50=0.21255= 0.228, 60= 0.246, 65=0.272, 70= 0.305, 75= 0.341, 80= 0.376, 85=0.38390= 0.394, 95= 0.397, 99=0.400. This taper can be fitted with a graphiteinsert if desired and is one of my favorites. It handles a 7wt sink tipnicely and easily deals with any of the fish listed above. Be sure to havea reel with a disc drag and lots of backing.Ray from brookie@frii.com Sun Apr 18 11:48:01 1999 Subject: cane on long island AND in colorado bob p says : Going out shortly. Gonna fish glass in your honor tonight!Or maybe an old Loomis IM6... Hmmm, should I break out theLeonard 7 footer? I think not.... Maybe the Orvis 4wt.Been dying all Winter to try out this new cane rod I pickedup. Loaded a Robichaud reel with some XPS DT line. Yes,wild brookies on LI, let's do it! this IS a cane listserv, go with the cane ! *G* from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Apr 18 13:52:56 1999 Subject: Re: Re: High Amplitude mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Sue,You have to remember that Reed thinks a rod where you must recite theold testament on the back cast is too fast :-).Hank. from FISHWOOL@aol.com Sun Apr 18 13:54:16 1999 Subject: Re: Re: Dainty Rod Tapers rsgould@cmc.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tom,This rod taper seems to jump all over the place, running from .025" to .006" differential of 5" increments. Any comments on the design?Regards,Hank. from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Apr 18 16:05:38 1999 Subject: Re: Re: Dainty Rod Tapers rsgould@cmc.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 4/18/99 6:55:21 PM, FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Yes - Other than tip, which I modified, I would have to say it was designed taper. If I were to design it from scratch, I would do it differently, but might mess it up in the process. The taper as given casts really well for a short rod, so I have never touched it. I've built 8 of these as hexes, spirals, 5 strips and 4 strips. All were successful. I think you have to get a lot of taper into a short rod to give it both a responsive tip, and a strong enough butt. As to the hinge near the middle, I don't know if it is necessary or not, but it does not detract from the crisp feel of the rod,and may just be important to the overall feel of the rod.Keep in mind, I came up with this 15 years ago (pre hexrod) when I wasjust starting out. I used the time honored method of casting an existing rod and modifying it in an attempt to improve it. A lot of people have built this taper now, and as far as I know everybody is happy. I have always said itis a poor taper to try to scale up into a larger rod and don't advise anyone to try it. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Apr 18 16:27:33 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:27:29 +0200 Subject: Sv: Old Reel -----Original Message----- Subject: Old Reel This is not a "rod" question, but if anyone can help me identify an oldreel, please contact me off list. The reel is approx. 4" dia. x 1 1/2" wide, well made, and is in the styleof, but not exactly like the Hardy Silex, and marked in a circular patternwith the following: ING. J. HOLMT. HJEM Ted This is just a guess: ING. J. HOLM could be INGENIOR (engineer) J. Holm,T.HJEM could be Trondhjem, a city in Norway. ING is common as short for Ingeniior in Denmark, and since danish andnorwegian are closely related, I'd say I'm right. Holm is a common name here inScandinavia. There You have it. Now all we need is a norwegian listmember to commenton this. yours truly Carsten Jorgensen from leroyt@involved.com Sun Apr 18 16:45:02 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52297U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:44:54 -0700 Subject: planing forms boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE89AA.19BCC5C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE89AA.19BCC5C0 Rodmakers, Can I build a set of metal forms to build 4 strip rods on? If =so what do I use for filing out the grove with, and where might one find =tapers or is there some formula to convert hex rods to quads? Thanks in =advance, Leroy......... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE89AA.19BCC5C0 Rodmakers, Can I build a set of = build 4 strip rods on? If so what do I use for filing out the grove = where might one find tapers or is there some formula to convert hex = quads? Thanks in advance, Leroy......... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE89AA.19BCC5C0-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 18 18:12:14 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A6D717C0128; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:12:23 EDT RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: High Amplitude Hank,Perhaps so. But if you also throw in a few chapters of "The Wisdom ofSolomon" it seems to slow it down nicely for the forward cast.Best regards,Reed FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Sue,You have to remember that Reed thinks a rod where you must recite theoldtestament on the back cast is too fast :-).Hank. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 18 18:26:40 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AA33129006A; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:26:43 EDT Subject: Re: who's rod Terry,It's all in the taper. I regularly fish a century old rod that bends likethaton a 12" trout... well, maybe a 12" smallmouth. But the important thing isthat therod is still straight.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Robert,a very good workout for an old rod ? I should think that manycotemporary rodswould require several weeks rest to return to normal after beingstresses likethat!.I do not think they used carpenters glue at Leonard'sTerry "robert.kope" wrote: Terry, Acording to the cedits on the title page, that's Per Brandin with aLeonard40L. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 9:46 PMSubject: who's rod Earlier today I was looking at that new cane rod magazine web site,theone that has had distribution problems. There was cover depicted thatshowed a guy with a rod bent double and I would be interested to knowifthe taper was a computer generated one or a copy from a "classic"?Terry Ackland from stpete@netten.net Sun Apr 18 20:36:53 1999 Subject: Parabolic - 3pc?? Well, I've been out today casting my Driggs River. I swear if I ever*really* get the hang of that rod, I'll be dangerous. I keep comingback to it. I built it before I got my gauge block and its a few thouover here and there, but it still casts great! (I'm reciting Miltonbetween the back and forward casts!) Don't try too hard to make it 'go'and it will shoot line like a demon! Now my question. If the parabolic taper has a stiff mid to act as alever (does it ever!), how does converting a 2 pc rod to a 3 pc workout? Wouldn't the ferrules screw up the action? I'm just guessinghere. Maybe the truncated ferrules don't affect the action as much? I know that Pezon & Michel made some rods with some wild ferruleplacements. Tony Spezio showed Harry Boyd and I a PM that had a buttsection that must have been 12" or 15" shorter than the tip. You shouldsee that ferrule plug! Anyway, would a 3 pc Para 15 cast anywhere close to what a 2 pc versionwould cast like? It seems that a parabolic would be affected more thana straight taper when converting from 2 pc to 3 pc. What do you think?I know some of you guys have looked this over before. Thanks inadvance. Rick C. from stpete@netten.net Sun Apr 18 20:48:44 1999 Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:54:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Splitting Tony, I found the following to be helpful:1) flame the culm or make sure you use good dry bamboo2) remove the inside dams at the nodes after you split the culm in half3) plane the pith side down a bit after you split halves in thirds4) use the 'knife in the vise' method (wear thick gloves!!!!) forsplitting the six large strips into quarters5) use the splitting tools (two screwdrivers) ala Garrison or Digger forthe intial split to halves and the halves to sixths6) make sure you split to the imaginary center line of the culm, keepingequal radial angles on the strips7) sometimes you get a difficult culm - don't panic, just make sure youget at least one rod out of the culm - you'll use extra strips, Ipromise, so if you get 12 good butt strips and 12 good tip strips, youcould still only make one rod most likely8) better too wide than too narrow - I know, I've been cutting it tooclose lately and have wasted some strips9) go slow at first, and watch what happens as you bend, push or pull onthe strip to control it; you'll soon catch on It was good seeing you in Mtn. Home. Good Luck,Rick C.Tony Spezio wrote: I finally got enough courage to split the lowerhalf of my culm for the butt sections.. I am stillhaving a problem with run off. I did manage to get12 good strips and 6 usable ? ones. I have lookedin the books I have and none really address thisproblem or I missed it some where.I know you need to bend the bamboo to direct thesplit but I did not achieve that. I tried bendingthe direction that I wanted the split to go andthen away from where I wanted it to go. It stillwent where it wanted to go. The other problem Ihad is the bamboo splitting the power fibers at asharp angle to the culm.I have seen Wayne splitstrips so narrow that I thought they were scrap.He made it look easy.Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Apr 19 00:45:48 1999 out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA70438; Mon, 19 Apr 199905:45:26 GMT Subject: Re: Dainty Rod Tapers Tom, how timely, I was wondering about the derivation of your taper. Ifinished my first rod this afternoon , your 5'6" which I built as anodeless. Taped the guides on to test it this afternoon and I was mostpleased with it. I found for my casting style (or lack thereof) a DT 5suited it best, it also liked a WF 5 and with a little work on my part Ithink a Wulff 4/5 would work better at longer range as you noted.Overall I'm very happy with how it came out & I've learned alot in thelast few months with a long way to go. Final dimensions were within afew tho of design so I must have got something right. Finish (brushedon) leaves alot to be desired but that will come in time. I used of therack real seat & cork for this one, not set up to get anymore ambitious Plan to take it out later in the week to try under more demandingconditions conditions than the park out back.Thought I'd put your name on the rod to credit "Taper" or would youobject to that, seeing as it's not cosmetically pretty (but it castsbeautifully).Thanks For Sharing The DesignCraig from RMargiotta@aol.com Mon Apr 19 05:22:57 1999 Subject: Sutherlane Welles Varnish Has anyone tried the Sutherland Welles tung oil spar varnish that's in the Garrett Wade catalog? It sounds good but at about $100/gallon it's pretty expensive stuff. --Rich from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon Apr 19 07:03:07 1999 Subject: Re: Grip Shape Sue, what is am going to say will be considered heresy by most folks onthis list serve. However, I have built a number (more than I care to lookup!) of synthetic rods and now a dozen or so bamboo rods,as well asreworking the grips for many of my fellow fly fishing club members. Whenthese folks cast my rods they are amazed at the "something" that makestherod feel so comfortable. Then they ask what do I do to make the rods castso well and feel so good. The answer is simple, smaller cork grips. Severalthen bring their rods to me to reform the cork grip. I have done a few, butusually just demonstrate how simple it is to reform the grip--20-30minutesand you have a customized grip.To a person, after these demonstrations these folks prefer smaller grips.J. Snider.At 05:54 PM 4/17/99 -0600, SueK wrote: Well, a quick insert here from Colorado cane lady, the grip is critical tome. All my graphite rods have hadcustom-built grips. I insist on trying and retrying the 'fit' as the rodis being assembled. Sanding down the cork is no biggie and certainly doesNOT take much time. So why not have a perfect one ? With a smallerhand,the grip IS important. Factor in, I am holding it sometimes hours on end.If not comfortable and precisely the 'right fit', can ( I think ) lead tohand and wrist fatigue. As for the canes I have, weren't built to MYspecs, so have to live with what was created. But I guarantee you, when IDO have that first cane done for me, it will have just the right cork. mmmm, this brings up another question ( this tangential stuff IS greatisn't it ? ), are there other 'good' grip materials, other than cork ?Suspect that wood was used once upon a time. Anything else that canemakers use ? suecolorado from d_price@global2000.net Mon Apr 19 08:28:59 1999 JAA26545 Subject: Midge Hi everyone!!!Does anyone by chance have the guide placement for a Paul Young Midgeand did they vary much in each rod?? Thanks in advance(this is a greatresorce)Dave Price from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 19 09:10:48 1999 Subject: Re: ferrule fitting I would recommend a fairly loose fitting ferrule and an adhesive that doesnotdry rock hard. This will allow the cane to expand and contract with thevariations in humidity. This is important if you have just naked cane underyoucork grip.Most of the old rods you encounter with loose ferrules and guides isbecausethe finish has broken down and the expanding and contracting of the canehasloosened everything up.T.A Ray Gould wrote: Terry K's recent email about using an air escape groove for ferrulefittingcompells me to add my 2 cents worth on the topic. First off I'll admitthatI have experienced the same phenomenon of sliding a ferrule intopositionand then watching it back off due to the compressed air inside.Certainly ferrule fitting is one of the most critical steps in rod buildingand there is nothing quite so embarrassing as having a ferrule pull offtherod during a demonstration.What I've concluded is that when this happens I didn't have the ferrulefitted tightly enough in the first place. The ferrule should be fitted tothe cane tightly enough so that it needs to be warmed up a bit just priorto installation and then gently driven home with a wood mallet. It helpstocarefully apply a thin coat of adhesive to the entire surface of the canewhere the ferrule will be seated. I've had wonderful success usingUrethaneBond glue as the adhesive.A caution: Be extra careful if you're installing an Orvis ferrule sincesome of theirs were made with a transparent plastic moisture dam ontheinside which is easily damaged by heating and can be pushed out ofpositiontoo. Ray from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 19 09:22:19 1999 Subject: Re: who's rod Reed,I know what would happen if you stressed a rod built as per the Garrisonbook like theone pictured.Perhaps Charmichael missed some important information? I know I wasdisappointed withmy first Garrison taper and later came to the conclusion that it could havebeen thebook!Regards, Terry Reed Curry wrote: Terry,It's all in the taper. I regularly fish a century old rod that bends likethaton a 12" trout... well, maybe a 12" smallmouth. But the important thing isthat therod is still straight.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Robert,a very good workout for an old rod ? I should think that manycotemporary rodswould require several weeks rest to return to normal after beingstresses likethat!.I do not think they used carpenters glue at Leonard'sTerry "robert.kope" wrote: Terry, Acording to the cedits on the title page, that's Per Brandin with aLeonard40L. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Date: Saturday, April 17, 1999 9:46 PMSubject: who's rod Earlier today I was looking at that new cane rod magazine web site,theone that has had distribution problems. There was cover depicted thatshowed a guy with a rod bent double and I would be interested toknow ifthe taper was a computer generated one or a copy from a "classic"?Terry Ackland from fcaruso@caraustar.com Mon Apr 19 09:48:30 1999 4954 ; Mon, 19 Apr1999 10:48:24 5 E (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a)via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:46:35 1 E 4-1999)) id85256758.0051806A ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:50:12 -0400 Subject: ammonia toning I have removed the bark and filed the nodes on six strips. I placed them inaclear plastic tube with a bottle of ammonia sealed to the bottom of thetube.The top is sealed. I left this setup in a sunny area all of last week . I livein New Jersey and the weather has been mostly cloudy and cool. I have hadverylittle color change and the color is going nowhere near the Folsom (notsure ofthe spelling) butt that I am trying to match. Can anyone give me any infoonwhat I may be doing incorrectly or any other approach that might help. Frank from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Apr 19 11:10:31 1999 Subject: More on Quads More testing on quads:Quads seem to handle a wide range of line weights.If I may go out on a limb a bit - up to 5. I've triedthat three piece 7 footer with line weights from 3to 7. I wouldn't try to cast the entire line with the7 weight, but with any line weight lighter it wouldn'toverstress the rod. The next question - how does it handle the 3 weight? In my last post on quads I mentioned that a quad feels slow and wimpy atshort distances. This characteristic allows it to handlea three weight very effectively. If you can get your hands on a quad, give it a try.You won't be disappointed. Don't worry Bill, testing on pentas coming up. I'm just stuck on quads right now because of the novelty. Darryl from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Apr 19 11:29:14 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20262 for; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:29:44 -0500 Subject: Binding thread A while back someone posted a place in Atlanta Ga.where this thread can be bought. I thought I hadsaved it on a disk but it eludes me now. Any helpwould be appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from BThoman@neonsoft.com Mon Apr 19 12:55:45 1999 Subject: Rosewood Burl Okay, I went a little overboard on the rosewood burl. I think I have twolifetime supplies rosewood blanks alone, not to mention the otherassortedburls I've just picked up. If anyone's interested in some rosewood burlinserts, I've got some extras. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Apr 19 13:54:03 1999 Subject: Sutherlane Welles Varnish Hi Rich,It sounds to me as though someone is trying price gouging. A hundreddollars a gallon is at least twice as much as it should be. Besides thatyou'd be better served by a polyurethane varnish if moisture resistance isa concern. Tung oil varnishes rated low on a study presented at one of ourrod builders workshops.Ray from chris@artistree.com Mon Apr 19 14:01:17 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2A=A1?=" Subject: Re: Binding thread Tony is this what your looking for? Glace Cotton Binding Thread (sizes 16/4 & 24/4) Atlanta Thread & Supply Co.695 Red Oak RoadStockbridge, GA 30281phone: 1-800-847-1001 --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Tony Spezio wrote: A while back someone posted a place in Atlanta Ga.where this thread can be bought. I thought I hadsaved it on a disk but it eludes me now. Any helpwould be appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from Canerods@aol.com Mon Apr 19 14:52:23 1999 Subject: Cork rings All, I went to Bob Marriott's over the weekend to buy guides, ferrules and cork rings. They used to have some real nice looking "flor" cork rings, but this time I was very disappointed at what was in stock. Looked like what usedto be their standard grade cork. Has anyone found a supply of better quality cork? Don Burns from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Mon Apr 19 16:24:09 1999 199921:23:01 UT 16-1998)) id86256758.00737114 ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:00:55 -0500 Subject: Celebrating glass, celebrating graphite, celebrating cane If anyone wants to send me their fiberglass and graphite rods, let meknow, I'llgive you my address. Might even pay postage. Best regards,-Ed Estlow SueK on 04/18/99 09:04:53 AM Please respond to brookie@frii.com cc: Subject: cracking glass, staking graphite, celebrating cane bob wrote, Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast thenew Hardy Glass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it'sa "good way"! And Ray's "pea pole" crack demonstrates thathis sensitivity training course was a complete failure . tis okay, Ray and I have this great Victory Garden goingwith enormous tomatoes, beans and raspberry bushes that areso ladened they want to hang to the ground ! and only theGLX and RP and new Scotts will do as stakes ! :-)) appears to me that rod materials are cyclical. You live longenough and you see 'it' return. to whit, cane is inresurgence, glass apparently is ... okay so I'll hang onto thegraphite, clean if off after gardening season and stick inthe corner with the GlassWay collection ... good to see you on here Bob, didn't know you were acane man... sue from RMargiotta@aol.com Mon Apr 19 17:08:26 1999 Subject: Sutherland Welles Varnish -- for Ray Gould Ray: The stuff I'm talking about is a tung oil-based spar varnish. (It uses all tung oil as opposed to a mixture of tung, linseed, etc.) I was under the impression that in tests spar varnish was only slightly less moisture resistant than polyurethanes. Are you thinking of pure tung oil or do you have some new information? Actually, if you have the test results, please post them. Thanks. --Rich from anglport@con2.com Mon Apr 19 17:19:00 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Binding thread Tony,Aren't you glad there are packrats on the list?Take care,Art BTW, don't know WHERE the heck this originated or I'd credit him. Subject: Here's your glace source guys Atlanta Thread And Supply695 Red Oak RdStockbridge, GA 30281- 4369Phone: (770) 389-9115 Great Source will mail. Cost is about $18 for 6000 yards At 11:31 AM 4/19/99 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:A while back someone posted a place in Atlanta Ga.where this thread can be bought. I thought I hadsaved it on a disk but it eludes me now. Any helpwould be appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Apr 19 17:44:42 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA00193 for; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:45:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Binding thread Art,If it were not for pack rats all the good stuff would be trash.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Art Port wrote: Tony,Aren't you glad there are packrats on the list?Take care,Art BTW, don't know WHERE the heck this originated or I'd credit him. Subject: Here's your glace source guysX-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Atlanta Thread And Supply695 Red Oak RdStockbridge, GA 30281- 4369Phone: (770) 389-9115 Great Source will mail. Cost is about $18 for 6000 yards At 11:31 AM 4/19/99 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:A while back someone posted a place in Atlanta Ga.where this thread can be bought. I thought I hadsaved it on a disk but it eludes me now. Any helpwould be appreciated.Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Apr 19 17:54:53 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A4551950070; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:55:17 EDT Subject: Re: who's rod - A different test Terry,Perhaps so, I have not enough experience with Garrisons.I have a different test I'm going to try. I have a (deceased) famousmaker's rodblankthat I will measure and then plug into Hexrod. First at 5" intervals, then 4"intervals,then 2" intervals. I'm betting that the stress curves are different everytime.Any takers?Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Reed,I know what would happen if you stressed a rod built as per the Garrisonbook like theone pictured. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Apr 19 18:12:32 1999 don") bysmtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Mon, 19 Apr 199917:12:19 - 0600 Subject: Re: ammonia toning At 10:43 AM 4/19/99 -0400, cause@caraustar.com wrote:I have removed the bark and filed the nodes on six strips. I placed themin aclear plastic tube with a bottle of ammonia sealed to the bottom of thetube.The top is sealed. I left this setup in a sunny area all of last week .I livein New Jersey and the weather has been mostly cloudy and cool. I havehadverylittle color change and the color is going nowhere near the Folsom (notsure ofthe spelling) butt that I am trying to match. Can anyone give me any infoonwhat I may be doing incorrectly or any other approach that might help. Frank Frank, Try a dark brown alcohol permanent marker. Worked good on a scarfed tip Iwas building. Color wasn't right on so I just kept adding more till itworked. In the spots where it was a little dark, some light rubbing with alittle alcohol removed the excess. Don from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 19 18:49:03 1999 Subject: Re: who's rod - A different test Reed,I meant I do not think you could pysically stress a rod produced byfollowing theGarrion bookto the degree of that Leonard.I did not get into the math at all. I built a couple of rods to the dimensionsin thebook anddecided I did not need the knowledge to make more of the same.Regards, Terry Reed Curry wrote: Terry,Perhaps so, I have not enough experience with Garrisons.I have a different test I'm going to try. I have a (deceased) famousmaker's rodblankthat I will measure and then plug into Hexrod. First at 5" intervals, then4"intervals,then 2" intervals. I'm betting that the stress curves are different everytime.Any takers?Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Reed,I know what would happen if you stressed a rod built as per theGarrison book liketheone pictured. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Apr 19 18:56:23 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.83l.R) for ; Mon, 19 Apr 199919:51:44 -0400 Subject: Re: ammonia toning You might want to try Ammonium Carbonate crystals. Just place them in apyrex type of container while heat treating your strips....it works great.If you have a problem in getting it just let me know. JoeBoy ----- Original Message ----- Subject: ammonia toning I have removed the bark and filed the nodes on six strips. I placed themin aclear plastic tube with a bottle of ammonia sealed to the bottom of thetube.The top is sealed. I left this setup in a sunny area all of last week .I livein New Jersey and the weather has been mostly cloudy and cool. I havehadverylittle color change and the color is going nowhere near the Folsom (notsure ofthe spelling) butt that I am trying to match. Can anyone give me any infoonwhat I may be doing incorrectly or any other approach that might help. Frank from anglport@con2.com Mon Apr 19 18:57:07 1999 Subject: Re: Celebrating glass, celebrating graphite, celebrating cane Ed,Fie on thee! Hast thou no honour? Use them long enough and ye'll goethBLIND!!!!!I HATE most emoticons but LOL seems to work here.Art At 03:59 PM 4/19/99 -0500, Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: If anyone wants to send me their fiberglass and graphite rods, let meknow, I'llgive you my address. Might even pay postage. Best regards,-Ed Estlow SueK on 04/18/99 09:04:53 AM Please respond to brookie@frii.com cc: Subject: cracking glass, staking graphite, celebrating cane bob wrote, Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast thenew Hardy Glass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it'sa "good way"! And Ray's "pea pole" crack demonstrates thathis sensitivity training course was a complete failure . tis okay, Ray and I have this great Victory Garden goingwith enormous tomatoes, beans and raspberry bushes that areso ladened they want to hang to the ground ! and only theGLX and RP and new Scotts will do as stakes ! :-)) appears to me that rod materials are cyclical. You live longenough and you see 'it' return. to whit, cane is inresurgence, glass apparently is ... okay so I'll hang onto thegraphite, clean if off after gardening season and stick inthe corner with the GlassWay collection ... good to see you on here Bob, didn't know you were acane man... sue from BThoman@neonsoft.com Mon Apr 19 19:06:32 1999 Subject: RE: ammonia toning Does that deteriorate the thermostat probe over time? Brian -----Original Message-----From: Joe C. Byrd [SMTP:jcbyrd@direct- pest.com]Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Re: ammonia toning You might want to try Ammonium Carbonate crystals. Just place them inapyrex type of container while heat treating your strips....it works great.If you have a problem in getting it just let me know. JoeBoy ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 10:43 AMSubject: ammonia toning I have removed the bark and filed the nodes on six strips. I placedthemin aclear plastic tube with a bottle of ammonia sealed to the bottom of thetube.The top is sealed. I left this setup in a sunny area all of last week .I livein New Jersey and the weather has been mostly cloudy and cool. I havehadverylittle color change and the color is going nowhere near the Folsom (notsure ofthe spelling) butt that I am trying to match. Can anyone give me anyinfoonwhat I may be doing incorrectly or any other approach that might help. Frank from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Apr 19 19:23:22 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Mon, Subject: RE: ammonia toning Hi Joe, Where does one buy Ammonium Carbonate crystals?Hardware stores? What other uses are there for this. I'm trying to fume some red oak. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Joe C. ByrdSent: Monday, April 19, 1999 7:56 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: ammonia toning You might want to try Ammonium Carbonatecrystals. Just place them in apyrex type of container while heat treatingyour strips....it works great.If you have a problem in getting it justlet me know. JoeBoy ----- Original Message -----From: Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 10:43 AMSubject: ammonia toning I have removed the bark and filed thenodes on six strips. I placed themin aclear plastic tube with a bottle ofammonia sealed to the bottom of thetube.The top is sealed. I left this setup ina sunny area all of last week .I livein New Jersey and the weather has beenmostly cloudy and cool. I have hadverylittle color change and the color isgoing nowhere near the Folsom (notsure ofthe spelling) butt that I am trying tomatch. Can anyone give me any infoonwhat I may be doing incorrectly or anyother approach that might help. Frank from oakmere@carol.net Mon Apr 19 19:24:15 1999 Subject: RE: Hello - A List Lurker Hi Folks: Thought I should let you all know I have been listening in for a few monthswhile working on rebuilding an old existing bamboo rod. I have beenflyfishing for better than 50 years. Born in PA and now living in SC forthe last 22 years. Well, I picked up a 1950-55 South Bend #346 8'6" 3piece(2 tips) and have put it back into operation. The mid-section was shortabout 2 inches, so I have resized the rod to have equal section lengths andit now is 7'11" 3 piece (2 tips). The bamboo was in good shape but thevarnish finish was cracked and scraped off with my finger nail. I haveadded all new hardware and wrappings to make an almost new lookingbamboorod. Have now cast the rod and it appears to handle a 6 wt. line quitewell, in fact the triangle taper 6 wt did the best in casting. What do youguys who are into building new rods think of putting old rods back into use scratchone of these days, but comments on this rod would interest me. Also triedto put the dimensions into Wayne C's Hexrod program and look at thestresscurve and was suprized how different it looked from published curves. Ihave an old copy of the program (1992 was the revision date on theprogram), so was wondering if there is a later version. Enough for now.Looking for your comments. FrankFrank Paul, Piscator2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672 from jczimny@dol.net Mon Apr 19 19:28:21 1999 -0400 "rsgould@cmc.net" Subject: RE: ferrule fitting This is very good advice. My experience is that very rigid adhesives cannottolerateshear, particularly, in cold weather.Also, most epoxy formulations will not tolerated a tight fit between themetal and thecane. I would suggest, at least for those using epoxy, a fair easy fit, butwith no sideplay. Somewhat like pre-loading a bearing.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: ferrule fitting I would recommend a fairly loose fitting ferrule and an adhesive that doesnotdry rock hard. This will allow the cane to expand and contract with thevariations in humidity. This is important if you have just naked cane underyoucork grip.Most of the old rods you encounter with loose ferrules and guides isbecausethe finish has broken down and the expanding and contracting of the canehasloosened everything up.T.A Ray Gould wrote: Terry K's recent email about using an air escape groove for ferrulefittingcompells me to add my 2 cents worth on the topic. First off I'll admitthatI have experienced the same phenomenon of sliding a ferrule intopositionand then watching it back off due to the compressed air inside.Certainly ferrule fitting is one of the most critical steps in rod buildingand there is nothing quite so embarrassing as having a ferrule pull offtherod during a demonstration.What I've concluded is that when this happens I didn't have the ferrulefitted tightly enough in the first place. The ferrule should be fitted tothe cane tightly enough so that it needs to be warmed up a bit just priorto installation and then gently driven home with a wood mallet. It helpstocarefully apply a thin coat of adhesive to the entire surface of the canewhere the ferrule will be seated. I've had wonderful success usingUrethaneBond glue as the adhesive.A caution: Be extra careful if you're installing an Orvis ferrule sincesome of theirs were made with a transparent plastic moisture dam ontheinside which is easily damaged by heating and can be pushed out ofpositiontoo. Ray from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Mon Apr 19 20:37:27 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: Celebrating glass, celebrating graphite, celebrating cane Hi Ed, I have a Fisher 6pc Graphite 5wt that I was about to stake some tomatoeswith this season (very economical, one rod, six plants). If you wouldlike it just let me know. Regards BobFly Supplies On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: If anyone wants to send me their fiberglass and graphite rods, let meknow, I'llgive you my address. Might even pay postage. Best regards,-Ed Estlow SueK on 04/18/99 09:04:53 AM Please respond to brookie@frii.com cc: Subject: cracking glass, staking graphite, celebrating cane bob wrote, Not so fast, Ms. "hit and run". :)How bout defining "the way of the glass"? After I cast thenew Hardy Glass 6'6" 3pc, 3wt, I had to own it. So it'sa "good way"! And Ray's "pea pole" crack demonstrates thathis sensitivity training course was a complete failure . tis okay, Ray and I have this great Victory Garden goingwith enormous tomatoes, beans and raspberry bushes that areso ladened they want to hang to the ground ! and only theGLX and RP and new Scotts will do as stakes ! :-)) appears to me that rod materials are cyclical. You live longenough and you see 'it' return. to whit, cane is inresurgence, glass apparently is ... okay so I'll hang onto thegraphite, clean if off after gardening season and stick inthe corner with the GlassWay collection ... good to see you on here Bob, didn't know you were acane man... sue from FISHWOOL@aol.com Mon Apr 19 21:08:51 1999 Subject: Re: Parabolic - 3pc?? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Rick,I've built 5 rods on a knock-off of a PY 15--I cut it down to 71/2' and monkeyed around with the taper a fair amount, turning it into a 5 wgt.Three of the rods are 2 pc. and 2 are 3 pc. I do NOT change the taper to account seemed a little stiffer than the 2pc. rods. On straight line tapers I've found just the opposite. The differences were not great enough to warrant changing the tapers between the 2 styles of rod. Now, mind you, I may justbe lazy and not sensitive enough to the differences to have 'em make a difference to me. FWIWRegards,Hank. P.S. All 5 rod owners love 'em. from stpete@netten.net Mon Apr 19 22:34:04 1999 Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:39:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Parabolic - 3pc?? Hank, Every so often, we need someone to tell us to just TRY IT and quitwaiting around trying to figure out all the factors and vectors andwhatnot. I could have built the three pc and tried it out in the timeI've taken looking at stress curves and refiguring and regraphing andall. I do want the three pc, so I reckon I'll use Stetzer's Hexrodinterface or just do what you did and place the ferrules where I want'em. To be honest, I can't cast my way out of a paper bag. It would probablysuit me to make ONE rod, stick with it, and learn to cast that one rod.As it is, I'm having too much fun building, casting and trying to figureout what each rod wants. Most of 'em have some casting quality worthadmiring. Rick C.FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: Rick,I've built 5 rods on a knock-off of a PY 15--I cut it down to 71/2' andmonkeyed around with the taper a fair amount, turning it into a 5 wgt.Threeof the rods are 2 pc. and 2 are 3 pc. I do NOT change the taper to account seemed a little stiffer than the 2pc. rods. On straight line tapers I'vefound just the opposite. The differences were not great enough towarrantchanging the tapers between the 2 styles of rod. Now, mind you, I mayjust belazy and not sensitive enough to the differences to have 'em make adifference to me. FWIWRegards,Hank. P.S. All 5 rod owners love 'em. from andy@w-link.net Mon Apr 19 22:59:28 1999 Subject: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation All, I will be moving out of my current warehouse by June 15. Down to my lastseveral hundred poles of my current supply, I would like to be rid of thembefore that date. If interested, please contact me privately for moreinformation. All material is 12' x 2" and void of slash marks and burnmarks. Thank you. Cordially, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Apr 19 23:11:20 1999 Subject: Rebuilding old cane rods Hi Frank ,You were looking for comments on a South Bend #346. I refinished a SouthBend 346-9ft x 3pc for a customer this past March. I find that manyfishermen and fisherwomen are attached to rods like this as heirloomshanded down in their family. Most of them are surprised at how nice therodlooks when it is redone and how well it may suit them. from a buildersstand point refinishing/restoring/rebuilding old rods is an excellentlearning process and helps one do a better job when making one fromscratch. from my personal preference I find many of the old productionrodsespecially the 9ft rods were too heavy and had too slow an action for mytastes.Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Apr 19 23:21:11 1999 Subject: Ammonium carbonate Hi Richard, The way I attained the "ammonium carbonate chips" was to go to my localpharmacy and asked them to order it for me. It came in a 500g bottle from J.T. Baker Inc. of Phillipsburg, N.J. (201) 859-2151. Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Apr 19 23:35:26 1999 Subject: Tung oil Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer to regarding the resistance to moisture Woodworking. It was in an article entitled "protecting wood fromhumidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Anderson reported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to get permission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representing greater effectiveness, and using3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated 44, tung oil rated 2, soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss spar varnish rated 30. Don's conclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is the best one to use. And remember thatthe best moisture protection is a coat of wax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from rafick@fwi.com Tue Apr 20 00:27:44 1999 Subject: ferrule mounting boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE8AAB.3E744300" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE8AAB.3E744300 On the subject of ferrules, just mounted the new R.E.C ferrule on a =Dickerson 7614 taper, I found that with the moisture plug being =machined, rather than soldered, it has a conical shape on the bamboo =side. So if when the ferrule station is turned, and the tip of the =station is pointed at about 60 degree's, it allows a station turned =slightly undersize to center perfectly. automaticly. ( hope this made =sense ) ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE8AAB.3E744300 On the subject of ferrules, just = R.E.C ferrule on a Dickerson 7614 taper, I found that with the moisture = being machined, rather than soldered, it has a conical shape on the = ) ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE8AAB.3E744300-- from Turbotrk@aol.com Tue Apr 20 00:46:46 1999 Subject: sharpening plane blades Can someone point me in the right direction. I want to have the sharpest plane blades when I start my next rod. I found that I was chipping when I should have been cutting. I have tried the scarry sharp method. It works but I cannot afford all the sand paper. I now own a 1000/6000 Japanesewater stone and would like someone to tell me how to use it with a General Sharpening guide. Thanks in advancestuart miller from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Apr 20 05:36:04 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.83l.R) for ; Tue, 20 Apr 199906:32:16 -0400 Subject: Re: ammonia toning Does that deteriorate the thermostat probe over time? Brian I have never heard of it doing it, but anything is possible. I'll call themanufacturer and see if it is that caustic. from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Apr 20 05:36:05 1999 with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.83l.R) for ; Tue, 20 Apr 199906:31:28 -0400 Subject: Re: ammonia toning Where does one buy Ammonium Carbonate crystals?Hardware stores? What other uses are there for this. I'm trying to fume some red oak. If you can't get some locally through a pharmacist friend, email meprivately off the list at jcbyrd@direct-pest.com from l.macdonald@sympatico.ca Tue Apr 20 07:18:50 1999 Subject: E-mail list Please take me off of the Rodmakers e-mail list. Thanks!l.macdonald@sympatico.ca from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 20 07:50:16 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: RE: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation Hi Andy, Do you have a sale on? Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Andy RoyerSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 12:00 AM Subject: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation All, I will be moving out of my current warehouse by June 15. Down to my lastseveral hundred poles of my current supply, I would like to be rid of thembefore that date. If interested, please contact me privately for moreinformation. All material is 12' x 2" and void of slash marks and burnmarks. Thank you. Cordially, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax from RckyMtKane@aol.com Tue Apr 20 08:17:43 1999 Subject: Amonium Carbonate- Doughnut Holes To All:George Maurer put me on to this. You can get Amonium Carbonate at a bakery supply house for about $ 10.00 for five pounds about a forth whatyou would pay for a 500g bottle at an other source! I think they use it to make the holes in the doughnuts ;-), Maybe there's more money in being acomedian than a rod maker !!! from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Apr 20 08:21:54 1999 Subject: Re: Tung oil That would be a dip coat of wax and would not look too good on a fly rod.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer to regarding the resistance tomoisture Woodworking. It was in an article entitled "protecting wood fromhumidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Anderson reported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to get permission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representing greater effectiveness, andusing 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated 44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss spar varnish rated 30. Don'sconclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is the best one to use. And rememberthatthe best moisture protection is a coat of wax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 20 08:46:29 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: RE: Tung oil In that same study, Alum. flake pigmented polyurethanegloss varnish scored much higher than regular glosspolyurethane: One coat: 41; Two coats: 77; Three coats: 84 be a viable solution. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of TERENCE ACKLANDSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 9:24 AM Cc: RMargiotta@aol.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Tung oil That would be a dip coat of wax and wouldnot look too good on a fly rod.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer toregarding the resistance to moisture May/June 1987 issue of FineWoodworking. It was in an articleentitled "protecting wood from humidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Andersonreported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to getpermission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representinggreater effectiveness, and using 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss sparvarnish rated 30. Don's conclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is thebest one to use. And remember thatthe best moisture protection is a coat ofwax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Apr 20 09:24:05 1999 Subject: Re: Tung oil Richard,an aluminum painted cane rod? ......ok.TerryRichard Nantel wrote: In that same study, Alum. flake pigmented polyurethanegloss varnish scored much higher than regular glosspolyurethane: One coat: 41; Two coats: 77; Three coats: 84 be a viable solution. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of TERENCE ACKLANDSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 9:24 AM Cc: RMargiotta@aol.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Tung oil That would be a dip coat of wax and wouldnot look too good on a fly rod.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer toregarding the resistance to moisture May/June 1987 issue of FineWoodworking. It was in an articleentitled "protecting wood from humidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Andersonreported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to getpermission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representinggreater effectiveness, and using 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss sparvarnish rated 30. Don's conclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is thebest one to use. And remember thatthe best moisture protection is a coat ofwax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 20 09:31:52 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: RE: Tung oil Sure, for those people nostalgic for the old metalrods. ;-) Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of TERENCE ACKLANDSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 10:27 AM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Tung oil Richard,an aluminum painted cane rod? ......ok.TerryRichard Nantel wrote: In that same study, Alum. flake pigmentedpolyurethanegloss varnish scored much higher thanregular glosspolyurethane: One coat: 41; Two coats: 77; Three coats: 84 finish, this maybe a viable solution. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of TERENCE ACKLANDSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 9:24 AM Cc: RMargiotta@aol.com;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Tung oil That would be a dip coat of wax and wouldnot look too good on a fly rod.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer toregarding the resistance to moisture May/June 1987 issue of FineWoodworking. It was in an articleentitled "protecting wood from humidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Andersonreported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to getpermission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representinggreater effectiveness, and using 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss sparvarnish rated 30. Don's conclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is thebest one to use. And remember thatthe best moisture protection is a coat ofwax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 20 09:31:53 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: RE: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu My apologies, I meant to send this privately. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Richard NantelSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 8:49 AM Subject: RE: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation Hi Andy, Do you have a sale on? Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Andy RoyerSent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 12:00 AM Subject: Bamboo (Tonkin Cane) Liquidation All, I will be moving out of my current warehouse by June 15. Down to my lastseveral hundred poles of my current supply, I would like to be rid of thembefore that date. If interested, please contact me privately for moreinformation. All material is 12' x 2" and void of slash marks and burnmarks. Thank you. Cordially, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Apr 20 09:49:42 1999 Subject: Re: Tung oil The experiments on finishes were carried out by the Forest Products Lab.withtaxpayers money and not by Fine Woodworking. The experiments areperiodicallyupdated as new finishes reach the market.I have a couple of FPL publications with the same article as in FineWoodworking.Contact FPL and I am sure the information is freely available.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer to regarding the resistance tomoisture Woodworking. It was in an article entitled "protecting wood fromhumidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Anderson reported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to get permission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representing greater effectiveness, andusing 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated 44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss spar varnish rated 30. Don'sconclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is the best one to use. And rememberthatthe best moisture protection is a coat of wax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Apr 20 15:25:56 1999 via smap (4.1) 13:33:42 PDT Subject: Granger Tapers Has anyone measured out any Granger tapers in the 7'-8' range? If so, would you be willing to share the measurements. The Rodmakers site is lacking in shorter Granger tapers, which seems odd given the volume produced should make them more readily available then many, and I'm sure rodmakers like the tapers. Also any feedback regarding these tapers. Are the various models from the same time periods made from the sametapers with differences being in the wraps and bamboo quality ? Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from cbogart@shentel.net Tue Apr 20 18:56:28 1999 mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:55:46 +0000 "rsgould@cmc.net" "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" boundary="_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.FAIIUG138764=_=_=_"Subject: Re: Tung oil --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.FAIIUG138764=_=_=_ Ray As I have said before - Search and Thee Shall Find. The article is now available as a download from a public web site(govt) andI have attached it to this email. This is now public domain. Read to yourheartscontent. Chris On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:52:08 -0400, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: The experiments on finishes were carried out by the Forest Products Lab.withtaxpayers money and not by Fine Woodworking. The experiments areperiodicallyupdated as new finishes reach the market.I have a couple of FPL publications with the same article as in FineWoodworking.Contact FPL and I am sure the information is freely available.TLA Ray Gould wrote: Hi Rich,The study and test results I refer to regarding the resistance tomoisture Woodworking. It was in an article entitled "protecting wood fromhumidity".Perhaps you can find a copy. Don Anderson reported on this to the listJan29,1999 and was not able to get permission to post the article. Insummary with a high number representing greater effectiveness, andusing 3coats: polyurethane gloss varnish rated 44, tung oil rated 2,soya alkyd phenolic/tung oil gloss spar varnish rated 30. Don'sconclusionand I agree is that polyurethane is the best one to use. And rememberthatthe best moisture protection is a coat of wax, it rated 95 for a singlecoat.Ray> from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 20 20:01:05 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: Wrap at tip top Is a wrap at the tip top necessary or simply cosmetic?Howell doesn't mention wrapping below the tip top,Wayne does. If it isn't necessary, I'd prefer to keepthe extra weight off the tip. Thanks in advance, Richard from sats@gte.net Tue Apr 20 20:41:30 1999 Subject: LIne dressing. One of my sources of beat up and battered cane came up with a couple ofboxes oftins of Fly Line Dressing. Looks to be at least 40 years old. May be forSilklines. Anyone interested, I'll get more information. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from chris@artistree.com Tue Apr 20 21:30:31 1999 Subject: Re: LIne dressing. Just a thought. It might be nice if someone got this stuff analyzed at a labsothat it may be recreated in the future if need be. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com "Terry L. Kirkpatrick" wrote: One of my sources of beat up and battered cane came up with a couple ofboxes oftins of Fly Line Dressing. Looks to be at least 40 years old. May be forSilklines. Anyone interested, I'll get more information. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from djk762@hotmail.com Tue Apr 20 22:11:06 1999 Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:10:24 PDT Subject: Granger Tapers Chris, The Planing Form number 50-Mar/Apr 1998 has four Granger tapers; 8'6" Aristocrat, 8' Favorite, 7'6" Special, 7' Aristocrat. Howell's book has a taper for a 7' Wright McGill granger. David KashubaFair Oaks CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from djk762@hotmail.com Tue Apr 20 22:17:17 1999 Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:17:00 PDT Subject: Thermometers Rodmakers, Any suggestions for a thermometer for a Nueneman oven? Thanks All,David KashubaFair Oaks CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Apr 21 06:11:54 1999 Subject: Dick Spurr's email or website address If anyone has Dick's address(s), I would appreciate the info! Thanks,Mike from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Apr 21 06:22:37 1999 Subject: Newbie making chop sticks Well guys, I've made my first attempts at splitting some cane, and theresults speak for themselves! Is anyone in need of some nifty chop sticks,of various sizes? (G) Since I don't have any, I do believe I'd better findsome cheapo bamboo to practice with!Truthfully though, I've read the splitting articles in a number of books andit definately isn't as easy as it looks (to do it right that is). Andalthough I won't let anyone see the results of my attempts (I don't want tobe guest of honor at a lynching!), I have enough left over to make a rod (ofcourse I haven't gotten my planes into the act yet either!).A number of you have tried to help me along here, and I definately want tothank everyone who has been of help!!!! Now if I can only remember where Iput my good hands... Now if someone will fib to me and tell me that splitting is the hard part, Ican rest easier! (G) Hope everyone has a fun day today, The chop stick maker, Mike from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 07:50:11 1999 Subject: Re: Thermometers There are 2 types of thermometers readily available, the oral and therectal thermometer.The only difference between the two I am told is the taste. David Kashuba wrote: Rodmakers, Any suggestions for a thermometer for a Nueneman oven? Thanks All,David KashubaFair Oaks CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from eric.koehler@meissner-wurst.com Wed Apr 21 09:11:42 1999 user@gateus.meissner-wurst.com 09:29:24 -0500 gateus.meissner-wurst.comvia smap (4.1) (5.0.1460.8) Subject: Dick Spurr's contact info... Here's the website address and phone numbers for Dick Spurr. http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/equipcat.htm or... spurr@kingfisher.com or...voice: 1 (970) 243-8780 fax: 1 (970) 243-8572. Regards, Eck from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed Apr 21 09:32:32 1999 Subject: Rosewood burl is gone The Rosewood is gone. Thanks for all the inquiries. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Apr 21 09:36:59 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:36:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks Doctor Chopsticks,Don't worry, splitting is the hardest part! No really, splitting is one ofthose jobs that you just have to do several times before the light comeson andit dawns on you that this really isn't that hard. Most of us waste a culmortwo trying to figure that out and get the hang of it.The next stage comes from reading this list. Someone mentions that hesplits to 32 pieces per tip section, thus getting 3 or 4 rods per culm. Youdothe same thing with about your fourth or fifth culm, and you think you arenowMr. Rodmaking. Been there, done that.Stage three comes when you realize that you have squeezed three rodsout ofa culm, but put some less than perfect cane in a rod. And it burns you up.Isn't that kind of shooting yourself in the foot? So you go back tosplittingto reasonable thicknesses, and using the 12-18 best strips from eachculm.Guess I'm in the middle of this stage right now. Compared to time andothercomponents, cane is dirt cheap. One rod per culm makes the dollars spentoncane seem like a good investment. What the next stage is, I'm not sure.All that to say, don't worry about your splitting skills. We ought tohavea splitting workshop at SRG 99 for those of us who don't feel like we'reverygood at it. Then again, most rodmaking skills are among the many thingsin lifeyou don't have to be good at to enjoy.Harry BTW, One word of consolation: Most of us start out with our worst culm,andrightly so. But cane that is crooked, ugly, and has splits in several placesisMUCH more difficult to split efficiently. Follow Rick C.'s advice fromyesterday and it will help, some. What helps most is practice, experience. from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Apr 21 10:42:31 1999 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks You're past the hardest part. The hardest part is to decide to make bamboo rodsand to get started. I know of one guy that has allthe tools, the bamboo culms, everything he needs,but has yet to even attempt a split. Even worse,I have heard of a guy that has had a Morgan HandMill for months and it's still in the box. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Apr 21 10:48:51 1999 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks So you go back to splittingto reasonable thicknesses, and using the 12-18 best strips from eachculm.Guess I'm in the middle of this stage right now. Compared to time and othercomponents, cane is dirt cheap. Being able to split to 32 is an advantage because the strips are so muchcloser to final size (tips) that you spend less time planing. You do haveto be selective in which strip you use and throw out the ones that don'tmeasure up. For butt strips I split to 24. I have found that splitting that fine doesn't work for quads - the splinesare a lot wider than a hex. Darryl from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed Apr 21 11:10:06 1999 Subject: RE: Newbie making chop sticks Personally, I've found that any more than 24 strips and the strips get toothin to work with. If I have a slight bend at a node I find that I havevery little passes with the plane to compensate on both sides of thestrips.I guess I should straighten the nodes better! I've found that by using one culm per two piece rod I get the best andeasiest strips in the rod. I usually set aside 12 strips for the butt and18 for the tip and pre-plane and heat treat them all together. This way, Iknow the spares have the same heat treatment as the intended originals.Sometimes, when I complete a rod I have enough strips left over to makeanother one-tip rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com [SMTP:SalarFly@aol.com]Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks So you go back to splittingto reasonable thicknesses, and using the 12-18 best strips from eachculm.Guess I'm in the middle of this stage right now. Compared to time and othercomponents, cane is dirt cheap. Being able to split to 32 is an advantage because the strips are so muchcloser to final size (tips) that you spend less time planing. You do haveto be selective in which strip you use and throw out the ones that don'tmeasure up. For butt strips I split to 24. I have found that splitting that fine doesn't work for quads - the splinesare a lot wider than a hex. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Apr 21 11:37:01 1999 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks Personally, I've found that any more than 24 strips and the strips get toothin to work with. If I have a slight bend at a node I find that I havevery little passes with the plane to compensate on both sides of the strips.I guess I should straighten the nodes better! I suppose that all depends on length and line weight of the rodsyou make. I tend to make rods in the 6' to 7 1/2 ' range, and Ihaven't made a rod over a 6 weight yet. This is also whereeverything starts coming together. Knowing how to reallysharpen your plane blades, and sharpening to 35 degrees an occasional reject spline just for those reasons you havestated. P.S. No lifts or chips at all with the Morgan Hand Mill, but dueto the way the spline is mounted on the rail I can't split asthinly as I used to. Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 11:54:21 1999 Subject: Gorgeous George I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tip sectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% will endup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some of mytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland from flytyr@southshore.com Wed Apr 21 12:01:16 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA15865 for; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:01:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks Heck,I split mine already taperd. Trouble is that they are off several thouslants.Each one starts out at 1/2 " and tapers to a spear point.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Personally, I've found that any more than 24 strips and the strips gettoothin to work with. If I have a slight bend at a node I find that I havevery little passes with the plane to compensate on both sides of thestrips.I guess I should straighten the nodes better! I suppose that all depends on length and line weight of the rodsyou make. I tend to make rods in the 6' to 7 1/2 ' range, and Ihaven't made a rod over a 6 weight yet. This is also whereeverything starts coming together. Knowing how to reallysharpen your plane blades, and sharpening to 35 degrees an occasional reject spline just for those reasons you havestated. P.S.No lifts or chips at all with the Morgan Hand Mill, but dueto the way the spline is mounted on the rail I can't split asthinly as I used to. Darryl from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Apr 21 14:51:17 1999 Subject: Binding thread FYI--I just received me two spools of binding thread (16/4 and 24/4).Goodgrief,I've never seen this much thread in one place in all my life!! I've gotenough thread for 800 rods, plus 4 horse blankets!! :^) Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 15:36:13 1999 Subject: where are all the rods? A guy called me from Texas a couple of weeks ago and asked about a rod all had a waiting list as long as your arm.I cannot understand all the fuss made about Gehrke when none of you arereally getting stuck in and getting the goods out.I am a procrastinator, I admit it. I am getting worse. But if a guy likeGehrke comes along and beats me to the punch I have only myself toblame.Gehrke has realized right from the start that hand planing is not theprofessional way to build rods. I am not sure about the Dickersonbeveler though. The original Dickerson beveler has not produced too muchsince Dickerson had it!The time is so ripe now for cane rods, in fact it is almost over ripe.T.Ackland from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Apr 21 16:37:35 1999 Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:37:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Wrap at tip top =_NextPart_000_01BE8C1D.45EAAB60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1D.45EAAB60 The weight of the wrap at the tip is probably infinitesimal among all one'sother considerations. You could say the wrap is only cosmetic, but it alsoprovides something of a "ramp" between the cane and the abrupt step- uptothe O.D. of the tip-top itself. This may serve to buffer the shearingeffect brought on by the sharp transition between metal and cane -- thoughI'm not altogether convinced. But of even greater use, perhaps, the tipwrap helps to avoid the chaffing that would occur as the fly line passesover the metal edge of the tip-top. Alternatively, perhaps one could taperthat edge before mounting the top. I wonder if anyone has tried this. Cheers, Bill----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: Wrap at tip topDate: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 5:54 PM Is a wrap at the tip top necessary or simply cosmetic?Howell doesn't mention wrapping below the tip top,Wayne does. If it isn't necessary, I'd prefer to keepthe extra weight off the tip. Thanks in advance, Richard------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1D.45EAAB60 The weight of the wrap atthe =tip is probably infinitesimal among all one's other considerations. = buffer the shearing effect brought on by the sharp transition between = greater use, perhaps, the tip wrap helps to avoid the chaffing that =would occur as the fly line passes over the metal edge of the tip-top. = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1D.45EAAB60-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Apr 21 16:52:48 1999 Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:52:44 -0400 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? =_NextPart_000_01BE8C1F.67807820" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1F.67807820 Hand planing is not the right idea only if one means to turn out highvolume in minimum time. Apart from that consideration, hand planingremains the best way for the rest of us. Precious few of us can afford abeveling machine that can achieve the precision of hand planing. And ifhigh volume is the objective (and the way to justify that machine), thenone might well wonder about quality control in other areas. So, except for "high volume-low cost" objectives, perhaps hand planingremains the "professional way" to build a rod after all. Gehrke will notbe a problem for those who insist on quality. There are always guys outthere who think they can make a Yugo compete with a BMW. cheers, Bill ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND Subject: where are all the rods?Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 1:38 PM A guy called me from Texas a couple of weeks ago and asked about a rod andall had a waiting list as long as your arm.I cannot understand all the fuss made about Gehrke when none of you arereally getting stuck in and getting the goods out.I am a procrastinator, I admit it. I am getting worse. But if a guy likeGehrke comes along and beats me to the punch I have only myself toblame.Gehrke has realized right from the start that hand planing is not theprofessional way to build rods. I am not sure about the Dickersonbeveler though. The original Dickerson beveler has not produced too muchsince Dickerson had it!The time is so ripe now for cane rods, in fact it is almost over ripe.T.Ackland ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1F.67807820 Hand planing is not theright = high volume is the objective (and the way to justify that machine), then =one might well wonder about quality control in other areas.So, = they can make a Yugo compete with a BMW.cheers, = = immediate delivery. He had contacted all the better known makers = procrastinator, I admit it. I am getting worse. But if a guy = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C1F.67807820-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Apr 21 17:04:16 1999 Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:04:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George =_NextPart_000_01BE8C20.FFB5CFE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C20.FFB5CFE0 Now, why did I just KNOW that you might be impressed with Gehrke? ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND Subject: Gorgeous GeorgeDate: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:56 AM I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tip sectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% willendup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some of mytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland------ =_NextPart_000_01BE8C20.FFB5CFE0 Now, why did I just KNOWthat = think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8C20.FFB5CFE0-- from brookie@frii.com Wed Apr 21 17:24:59 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? The time is so ripe now for cane rods, in fact it is almost over ripe.T. Ackland Interesting topic here. And my .02, *I* happen to agree. "With what? ", they ask. Well, the issue of having to wait 2 to 4 years for a namebuilder to build a rod. Or even wait one year ! What a drag. Evenif I DID put my name in for a rod to built, put the 50% down, no guaranteeI'd be around in 1 to 4 years to see the rod for any number of reasons. I may be " stepping into it " by even commenting on this subject here, buthaving nothing to lose, she'll press on regardless ( grin ). I realize the resale value of the name-built rods is something to consider.But let's not for sake of this. I know naught of this chap that is claiming to build cane cheaper andfaster, but the market is there I think for the quicker and less costlycane. To whit, there IS a large flyfishing population that continues touse graphite. Betcha a bunch of them would try cane if it were moreavailable. Yes, even if Quality is less than the top-of-the-line. Thereare varying degrees of quality that the consumer is willing to pay for. What IF there was not just one, but a host of builders that would have asecond level of cane they built. The high end, and lower end. I wouldsubmit there ARE folks out there that would try cane and WOULD go withthecheaper models. THEN ( and here's a key ) as their appetite andappreciation for finely and totally handcrafted cane rods escalated, theyperhaps would get on a list to wait for a name-built rod. It strikes me that some of the name builders are banking off publicnoteriety. I'll just use one of the locals as an example. Again, don'tknow this for a fact. But consider, Mike Clark sells alot of rods, hasa long waiting list .... I suppose his quality is superb, but his name andfame might just come in ( large ? ) part from the fact that Mr. Gierachwillingly uses his name, describes his rods in his books. Greatadvertising if you can get it. He uses the same cane source some of youdo, probably has modified some of the oldtime tapers, uses cork andhardware from the same sources as other builders. No mystery in thematerials I shouldn't think. Maybe been doing it longer than some ...But there has to be a point where the increased years of experience doesnot continue to equate to increased quality. I know there are genuine artists and artisans, superb craftsmen who arebuilding the cane from the culm up. Until recently Mr. Clark was doing itall -- from the moment of first split to silk thread wrapping to finalcloth wipe- down and casting in the park. This undoubtedly is part of thereason for the delay in getting a cane. All processes are done by handand by one craftsman. That and the number of orders. Me personally ? I would love to know of several sources of quickeravailability of finished cane rods, at a reasonable price. All differenttapers, lengths, weights. I can hear some of you saying, " well fine,go buy one of Mr. G's rods then ... " That isn't my point here. I'mnot in the market to buy right now. I'm just talking out loud. Butguarantee you *I* would be buying more than I have if I could find them.Then as my firsthand experience with cane evolved, coupled with a greatdeal of patience and money permitting, I would supplement my canecollection with the name- rods. Isn't there a market for both ? suecolorado from rmoon@ida.net Wed Apr 21 17:30:09 1999 0000 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Bill I cannot tell you how much I appreciate what you have said. It is sotrue. Hand Planing is a whole different ball game. I am still waitingfor aH and I, or Montague, or SouthBend to sell at auction at $6000plus. George has just indicated $100,000 start up and estimates it willtake all of three years to amortize it. He also indicates an incipientcase of ulcers because of the problems. On the other hand I said 25years ago that when this activity begins to demand more than I amwilling to put in, I quit. I take my time stay well behind and enjoywhat I do and take satisfaction in how I do it. Just think if I were toflood the market with Moon Rods I might drive the price down. (-: from rmoon@ida.net Wed Apr 21 17:56:35 1999 0000 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? 63549D9116033279508C6BF9" --------------63549D9116033279508C6BF9 Sue I appreciate the fresh air you sometimes blow into this group.Keep it up. Still I must put in my thoughts and I am not sure if I amwith you or agin you.. I am going to tell you two stories. 1. A ldaybrought me aan old bamboo pole and asked that I restore it. I told herno. She was aghast. Why not? I told her the rod cost less than $5.00forty years ago and had been declining in value ever since. I told herthe $100-200 it would take to fix it was not worth the time and effort.She thought it was. The rod needed straightening, new handle new reelseat new ferrules rewrap and finish. But it still had the hallmarks ofterrible quality control. Virtually every glue joint was ragged andopen. BUT when I cast the rod I decided that it was one of the finestfishing rods I had ever handled. Story 2: I cast a Garrison once andexcept for the investment value I would not have paid more than $25. ItStunk!! There is a place for cheap rods, but I hate to see it. I think of allof the vast number of Japanese rods of Korean War vintage. I have neverseen a good one and I would venture that damned few of those whopurchased them went on to better rods. They were enough to give thewhole industry a bad name. I know you are wondering where all this isleading. It is simply that bamboo rods cannot be lumped into onebarrell. Each rod of each maker must be evaluated on its own merits.Perhaps a cheaper rod may encourage growth in the use of cane, but arash of bad rods can just as easily discourage growth. I am convincedthat an individual maker who takes pride in his work and who has areputation he cherishes will produce a better rod day in and day out. Idon't advertise the guarantee I make, and I hate to even mention it now,but I will. I give any one who gets one of my rods a Lifetime (mine)UNCONDITIONAL guarantee. Repair replacement or money back for anyreason what ever. Run over it with you blazer, break it beating youkid, slam it in a car door, or just bitch about the taper, or theappearance. I would ask Mr. Ackland or Mr. Gehrke if they would offersuch a guarantee. Sue there is room for all of us, but at the end the rod and thefisherman must achieve unity. Ralph --------------63549D9116033279508C6BF9 her the rod cost less than $5.00 forty years ago and had been declining rod needed straightening, new handle new reel seat new ferrules rewrapand finish. But it still had the hallmarks of terrible quality control. cast the rod I decided that it was one of the finest fishing rods I had I have never seen a good one and I would venture that damned few of those give lumped I am convinced that an individual maker who takes pride in his work andwho has a reputation he cherishes will produce a better rod day in and replacement break it beating you kid, slam it in a car door, or just bitch about the they would offer such a guarantee. Sue there is room for all of us, but at the end the rod and the fisherman --------------63549D9116033279508C6BF9-- from fiveside@net-gate.com Wed Apr 21 18:00:54 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06090 for; Subject: Weight at the Tip To the List Richard Nantel makes a good point about minimizing weight at the rodtip,exactly where you don't want an excess. But the weight of the tip wrap istrivial compared to the weight of the top guide. I use the Fuji ceramicsthere. Tom Smithwich raises heck about their appearance but they haveabouthalf the weight of the perfection style and they last forever. Just run itthrough your computer and see what a different taper you get with only.010oz. instead of .018 at the tip. Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 18:04:07 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Bill,I am talking about trying to build rods professionally and not justprofessional looking rods. Most of the builders on this list areproducing professional rods by unprofessional means that is why we allhave day jobs.I am not putting down hand planing, it is the only way for an amateur tobuild rods without too much outlay. Saying that, if you go the dip tankand fancy binder and oven route you are obliged to try to hawk a fewrods to recover some of the cost.Gehrk wants to make production rods as good as the best hand planed rodsas these are the yardstick because that is all there is. Remember allrods were production rods back in the golden era. Garrison would havebeen lost in the mists of time had it been not for the book. The bookand all the books since have picked up on this amateur method andelevated it to rodmaking proper.Is it possible to build a production rod as good as a hand planedoffering? Sure, it's been done in the past. Is it possible for $330?nope, not with just one beveler.Precision cane cutting takes time whether you hand plane or mill. Withmachines you are not restricted to just one machine, you can have a rowof them working away with perhaps one operator.I think George has the right stuff but lacks experience and is takingadvice from people that know nothing of production rodmaking.Production rodmaking has to be re-invented.Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Hand planing is not the right idea only if one means to turn out highvolume in minimum time. Apart from that consideration, hand planingremains the best way for the rest of us. Precious few of us canafford a beveling machine that can achieve the precision of handplaning. And if high volume is the objective (and the way to justifythat machine), then one might well wonder about quality control inother areas. So, except for "high volume-low cost" objectives, perhaps handplaning remains the "professional way" to build a rod after all.Gehrke will not be a problem for those who insist on quality. Thereare always guys out there who think they can make a Yugo compete witha BMW. cheers, Bill ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND Subject: where are all the rods?Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 1:38 PM A guy called me from Texas a couple of weeks ago and asked about arod andall had a waiting list as long as your arm.I cannot understand all the fuss made about Gehrke when none of youarereally getting stuck in and getting the goods out.I am a procrastinator, I admit it. I am getting worse. But if a guylikeGehrke comes along and beats me to the punch I have only myself toblame.Gehrke has realized right from the start that hand planing is nottheprofessional way to build rods. I am not sure about the Dickersonbeveler though. The original Dickerson beveler has not produced toomuchsince Dickerson had it!The time is so ripe now for cane rods, in fact it is almost overripe.T.Ackland from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Wed Apr 21 18:40:11 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA66640 for; Wed, 21 Apr 199923:40:08 GMT Subject: Breaking Cane Today I was heating & pressing nodes on my third set of tips from aculm (my plan was to build 2 of the same rod, 2 tips each), I broke 2 ofthe strips right near the node being heated. While heating I have beentest bending the piece the confirm it goes "soft" before I vice thenode. In each case I heard a small "crack" (technical term) and flexedit further and got a clean break. First one I figured was a bad spot inthat split or something but followed that by doing the same on my nextpiece. Tested both pieces in other spots (bent in a semi-circle or morebefore failure) and got them to break in a shattering mode (lots of longsplinters etc.) about what I thought they should do.Reviewed my procedures & realized on the third set I got a little"rammy" with the heat gun & was using High heat (B&D spec 1020F) whileon the first 2 sets I used Low heat (spec 500F). In both cases held thenode about 1-2 " from end of diffuser fitting & rotated the split whileit was heating up. Decided in the interest of science to sacrifice a fewmore splits to destructive testing. Two out of 8 pieces/node locationsfailed in a similar manner using the high heat, none out of 6 failedunder low heat.I thus assume that use of high/quick heat is the cause of myproblems, does this sound reasonable or should I be doing moreaggressive testing of my strips (i.e. bad culm??), although I have beenbending each split into a semi-circle to test for weakness.In any event I might still get my 2 x 2 tip rods out of this culm,if my problem is excessive/quick heating & I have more really good firestarting material for a planned trip this weekend..ThanksCraig from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed Apr 21 19:14:44 1999 Subject: RE: Breaking Cane Yes, use low heat. To me it's like cooking a steak. If you use too muchheat it will cook on the outside and not the inside. Slow heat will takelonger but cook more evenly all the way through. I suspect that the canewas hot enough on the outside but the inside wasn't, thereby breakingwhenthe pressure was applied. Not that I'm comparing nodes to steak or anything! Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 -----Original Message-----From: Craig Naldrett [SMTP:Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net]Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 5:37 PM Subject: Breaking Cane Today I was heating & pressing nodes on my third set of tips from aculm (my plan was to build 2 of the same rod, 2 tips each), I broke 2 ofthe strips right near the node being heated. While heating I have beentest bending the piece the confirm it goes "soft" before I vice thenode. In each case I heard a small "crack" (technical term) and flexedit further and got a clean break. First one I figured was a bad spot inthat split or something but followed that by doing the same on my nextpiece. Tested both pieces in other spots (bent in a semi-circle or morebefore failure) and got them to break in a shattering mode (lots of longsplinters etc.) about what I thought they should do.Reviewed my procedures & realized on the third set I got a little"rammy" with the heat gun & was using High heat (B&D spec 1020F)whileon the first 2 sets I used Low heat (spec 500F). In both cases held thenode about 1-2 " from end of diffuser fitting & rotated the split whileit was heating up. Decided in the interest of science to sacrifice a fewmore splits to destructive testing. Two out of 8 pieces/node locationsfailed in a similar manner using the high heat, none out of 6 failedunder low heat.I thus assume that use of high/quick heat is the cause of myproblems, does this sound reasonable or should I be doing moreaggressive testing of my strips (i.e. bad culm??), although I have beenbending each split into a semi-circle to test for weakness.In any event I might still get my 2 x 2 tip rods out of this culm,if my problem is excessive/quick heating & I have more really good firestarting material for a planned trip this weekend..ThanksCraig from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 19:18:43 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Ralph,Graphite rod builders can guarantee their product unconditionallybecause they charge you for five rods and give you one! It is built intothe price.I think you are alone on this one sunshine. Once the word gets aroundyou will be rodmaker to the hamfisted - good luck.Terry Ackland Ralph W Moon wrote: Sue I appreciate the fresh air you sometimes blow into this group.Keep it up. Still I must put in my thoughts and I am not sure if I amwith you or agin you.. I am going to tell you two stories. 1. Alday brought me aan old bamboo pole and asked that I restore it. Itold her no. She was aghast. Why not? I told her the rod cost lessthan $5.00 forty years ago and had been declining in value eversince. I told her the $100-200 it would take to fix it was not worththe time and effort. She thought it was. The rod neededstraightening, new handle new reel seat new ferrules rewrap andfinish. But it still had the hallmarks of terrible quality control.Virtually every glue joint was ragged and open. BUT when I cast therod I decided that it was one of the finest fishing rods I had everhandled. Story 2: I cast a Garrison once and except for theinvestment value I would not have paid more than $25. It Stunk!! There is a place for cheap rods, but I hate to see it. I think of allof the vast number of Japanese rods of Korean War vintage. I havenever seen a good one and I would venture that damned few of those whopurchased them went on to better rods. They were enough to give thewhole industry a bad name. I know you are wondering where all this isleading. It is simply that bamboo rods cannot be lumped into onebarrell. Each rod of each maker must be evaluated on its own merits.Perhaps a cheaper rod may encourage growth in the use of cane, but arash of bad rods can just as easily discourage growth. I am convincedthat an individual maker who takes pride in his work and who has areputation he cherishes will produce a better rod day in and day out.I don't advertise the guarantee I make, and I hate to even mention itnow, but I will. I give any one who gets one of my rods a Lifetime(mine) UNCONDITIONAL guarantee. Repair replacement or money back forany reason what ever. Run over it with you blazer, break it beatingyou kid, slam it in a car door, or just bitch about the taper, or theappearance. I would ask Mr. Ackland or Mr. Gehrke if they would offersuch a guarantee. Sue there is room for all of us, but at the end the rod and thefisherman must achieve unity. Ralph from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Apr 21 19:48:00 1999 Subject: Re: Weight at the Tip Bill's right! Some years ago I had various tip guides weighed on anelectronic scale to note the differences. The aluminum frame, ceramicguide with no plastic insert, was far lighter than the traditionalperfection style. Do I use them . . .? No, customers dont want them. ----------From: Bill Fink Subject: Weight at the TipDate: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:58 PM To the List Richard Nantel makes a good point about minimizing weight at the rodtip,exactly where you don't want an excess. But the weight of the tip wrapistrivial compared to the weight of the top guide. I use the Fuji ceramicsthere. Tom Smithwich raises heck about their appearance but they haveabouthalf the weight of the perfection style and they last forever. Just runitthrough your computer and see what a different taper you get with only.010oz. instead of .018 at the tip. Bill from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Apr 21 19:50:48 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:50:42 -0500 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Sue,Like Ralph, I think you are a wonderful addition to this list. I justcan't believe I've let Terry bait me into another discussion aboutsomething inwhich I have little or no expertise, but: Betcha a bunch of them would try cane if it were more available. Availability is not as much an issue as price, is it? If you take out ofthe game a dozen or two fairly well known custom rodmakers, and you'reready toplunk down $500-1000, you can get just about any bamboo rod you want,next dayair. Though I build rods for fun, not for profit, I've started making two ofeach rod I attempt. One for me, one to sell. Twice I wound up selling theoneI made for myself. I've usually got several rods lying around that I'll letgoof for less than half what a Mike Clark rod goes for. It doesn't say MikeClark on it, but on the one I examined a few weeks ago he used the samecomponents I do. My cane work is at least as good. My finish is probablybetter. Not trying to toot my own horn here. I'm not in the business. Butprice is a bigger obstacle than availability. For instance, AJ Thramer'srodsare as nice as almost anyone's, and are available through the majorcatalogs atvery reasonable prices. I'm told the same is true of Terry A.'s rods, thoughIhaven't actually seen or cast one, yet. Reputable dealers extend a standardthree day trial. See if you can get 3 day trial on a $600 graphite rod. Yes, even if Quality is less than the top-of-the-line. There are varyingdegrees of quality that the consumer is willing to pay for. Again, not sure I agree. What seems to have made St.Croix andRedingtonpopular is not *lower quality* at a more reasonable price, but*comparablequality* and performance at a lower price. If Mr. G's quality is not on parwith top of the line, I hope he doesn't sell a single rod past his initialorders. If his quality is top notch, nothing will prevent him from sellingrods till he gets tired of making them and quits. ( Got an idea that willhappen in this millenium ) No mystery in the materials I shouldn't think. Maybe been doing itlongerthan some ... But there has to be a point where the increased years ofexperience does not continue to equate to increased quality. Here I agree. This is exacting work, but it's not beyond the ability of agoodcraftsperson. Notoriety definitely equates to higher prices, and may wellbeworth more in the long run. A hundred years from now there will be nocollectors of rods made by Harry Boyd, but I am almost positive thatWayneCattanach's rods will be collected on par with today's Garrison's, Gillums,andPayne's. No doubt Wayne's rods are MUCH better than mine. Still, there aredozens and dozens of rodmakers who will sell you a fine rod at a pricethatworks out to materials plus about $10- 12/hour labor. Heck, at whatWaynecharges, his rods are a bargain, largely because he doesn't try to earn hisliving making rods. Me personally ? I would love to know of several sources of quickeravailability of finished cane rods, at a reasonable price. All differenttapers, lengths, weights. No, don't go buy Mr. G's rod. Get the catalogs from Marty Keane, CarmineLisella, Bob Corsetti, Dick Spurr, Phil Heck and others. There you'll findeverything from banty rods to spey rods, many of them by modern makers. Only avery few sell for more than top of the line graphite. Several times I'vebeentempted to post to this list a notice like the following: ***** I have $700 to spend, by midnight, on a new rod by a***** competent modern maker. Will any of you sell me a 7'6" 3/2 4weight? Bet I'd get a bunch of offers, don't you? It would be fun to see whoresponded. In the end, for many, many rodmakers today this is more aboutfunthan feeding a family. Most of those who are trying to feed a familydeserveevery nickel they get for top quality work. If we're going to cut prices,let's do it through keeping quality high and price low, not low price forlowquality. Wow, I've worked at this for 40 minutes and never made a point. If I didthat on the job, I'd get fired. For me, this is all about having a blast. Harry from MasjC1@aol.com Wed Apr 21 20:12:00 1999 Subject: Re: Breaking Cane Craig, I had the same experience on my first culm and came to the sameconclusion. Too much heat. I have reduced my heat gun's temp and have not had that problem since -- knock wood. Mark from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Apr 21 20:19:41 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Nice one,one of the problems here is that you cannot convince the guys that aproduction rod can be better than a hand planed rod. The difference is justinthe machining of the cane, all else is basically the same.Hand planed rods have their tapers calibrated every 5 ins and a machinemadetaper can be calibrated as close as .0001 per station if necessary. This initself open up a whole new area for rod design.Cane rods will never be inexpensive, they must always have a valuebecause ofthe work involved. But they should never be overpriced because the builderisso bloody slow that he has to overcharge.Most of the list have no understanding of production and manufacturingand arereally frightened of George.Back in the old days tackle shops bristled with cane rods, it was the onlychoice. What is going on now with cane? Just kiddery really, we are allmakingthe best rods in the world but no one can see them. If George comes alongandknocks out some rods, they will be the best rods in the world ( of whatsavailable)T.AcklandSue Kreutzer wrote: The time is so ripe now for cane rods, in fact it is almost over ripe.T. Ackland Interesting topic here. And my .02, *I* happen to agree. "With what? ", they ask. Well, the issue of having to wait 2 to 4 years for a namebuilder to build a rod. Or even wait one year ! What a drag. Evenif I DID put my name in for a rod to built, put the 50% down, no guaranteeI'd be around in 1 to 4 years to see the rod for any number of reasons. I may be " stepping into it " by even commenting on this subject here,buthaving nothing to lose, she'll press on regardless ( grin ). I realize the resale value of the name-built rods is something toconsider.But let's not for sake of this. I know naught of this chap that is claiming to build cane cheaper andfaster, but the market is there I think for the quicker and less costlycane. To whit, there IS a large flyfishing population that continues touse graphite. Betcha a bunch of them would try cane if it were moreavailable. Yes, even if Quality is less than the top-of-the-line. Thereare varying degrees of quality that the consumer is willing to pay for. What IF there was not just one, but a host of builders that would have asecond level of cane they built. The high end, and lower end. I wouldsubmit there ARE folks out there that would try cane and WOULD go withthecheaper models. THEN ( and here's a key ) as their appetite andappreciation for finely and totally handcrafted cane rods escalated, theyperhaps would get on a list to wait for a name-built rod. It strikes me that some of the name builders are banking off publicnoteriety. I'll just use one of the locals as an example. Again, don'tknow this for a fact. But consider, Mike Clark sells alot of rods, hasa long waiting list .... I suppose his quality is superb, but his name andfame might just come in ( large ? ) part from the fact that Mr. Gierachwillingly uses his name, describes his rods in his books. Greatadvertising if you can get it. He uses the same cane source some of youdo, probably has modified some of the oldtime tapers, uses cork andhardware from the same sources as other builders. No mystery in thematerials I shouldn't think. Maybe been doing it longer than some ...But there has to be a point where the increased years of experience doesnot continue to equate to increased quality. I know there are genuine artists and artisans, superb craftsmen who arebuilding the cane from the culm up. Until recently Mr. Clark was doing itall -- from the moment of first split to silk thread wrapping to finalcloth wipe- down and casting in the park. This undoubtedly is part ofthereason for the delay in getting a cane. All processes are done by handand by one craftsman. That and the number of orders. Me personally ? I would love to know of several sources of quickeravailability of finished cane rods, at a reasonable price. All differenttapers, lengths, weights. I can hear some of you saying, " well fine,go buy one of Mr. G's rods then ... " That isn't my point here. I'mnot in the market to buy right now. I'm just talking out loud. Butguarantee you *I* would be buying more than I have if I could find them.Then as my firsthand experience with cane evolved, coupled with a greatdeal of patience and money permitting, I would supplement my canecollection with the name- rods. Isn't there a market for both ? suecolorado from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Apr 21 20:25:28 1999 with ESMTP id +0000 Subject: Test, Don't open. Caught you! from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Apr 21 20:26:48 1999 Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:26:17 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Actually Terry, all jokes aside I sort of thought you and George weresomehow in this together as your general feelings seemed very similar.I think he will succeed in his goal but I'm not sure it'll be worth itfinancialy compared to what he could do with the same money elsewhereunless his prices rise some what. My feeling is that as you've mentioned before, most people these days havenever cast a bamboo rod but bamboo never the less has become the sort ofUltima Thule of the rod scene. I know from my own experience if you giveaguy a bamboo rod, even one that is some what fast he'll give it a bit of acast and wonder what the hell all the drama is about.A whole bunch of cheep new rods sudenly appearing on the market IMHOwillmeana whole bunch of cheep 2nd hand rods will soon follow after the initialshock of them first apearing. After this George will fill the nichelooking for this type of rod. By this "type" of rod I don't mean that thequality of the rod is in any way suspect only that it's a purelyproduction rod. I wonder just how large that market is?I truely hope for the sake of the hoby (business for some) the niche issmall because as I've mentioned before all the x-Nike factory workers whoare used to working for $2 a day could make 4-5 rods a day. Imagine a$300Orvis bamboo rod. Tony On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tip sectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% willendup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some of mytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from ljrp@penn.com Wed Apr 21 20:42:26 1999 Subject: Hello Anyone know how to remove a reelseat from bamboo rods particularly aHeddon!! from stpete@netten.net Wed Apr 21 20:43:11 1999 Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:48:51 -0500 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? This is scary, but I have to say that I agree with most of what Mr.Ackland has to say here. I do take exception to the comment that Mr.Gerhke 'has the right stuff'. I find Mr. Gerhke's attitude to beself-righteous and self- inflating. I am sure Mr. Gerhke's 'confidence'act is just that. It appears that if he hears an opinion and it doesn'tring false, then it must be true. I'm not sure Gerhke knows his stuff,in fact, I'd be that he doesn't (although I bet he's getting a realeducation right now!). I will say that if Mr. Gerhke has put the amount of capital he says hehas on the project, he is either a visionary or a fool. Time will tell.Problem is, after reading his prose, I don't feel confident that hetells the unadultarated truth, nor in fact, KNOWS the truth of which heexclaims so vigorously. Rick C.TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Bill,I am talking about trying to build rods professionally and not justprofessional looking rods. Most of the builders on this list areproducing professional rods by unprofessional means that is why we allhave day jobs.I am not putting down hand planing, it is the only way for an amateur tobuild rods without too much outlay. Saying that, if you go the dip tankand fancy binder and oven route you are obliged to try to hawk a fewrods to recover some of the cost.Gehrk wants to make production rods as good as the best hand planedrodsas these are the yardstick because that is all there is. Remember allrods were production rods back in the golden era. Garrison would havebeen lost in the mists of time had it been not for the book. The bookand all the books since have picked up on this amateur method andelevated it to rodmaking proper.Is it possible to build a production rod as good as a hand planedoffering? Sure, it's been done in the past. Is it possible for $330?nope, not with just one beveler.Precision cane cutting takes time whether you hand plane or mill. Withmachines you are not restricted to just one machine, you can have a rowof them working away with perhaps one operator.I think George has the right stuff but lacks experience and is takingadvice from people that know nothing of production rodmaking.Production rodmaking has to be re-invented.Terry from hokkaido_flyfisher@yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 21:10:38 1999 1999 19:12:03 PDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Tony, My experience is just the opposite of yours.Few of my friends use bamboo rods ... most of them like fast graphite rods ... With so much marketing hype, about catching the biggest and the most fish ... well, I suppose, people feel that they need a fast rod to zip a fly 50 times a minute ... and in their mind, that's what flyfishing is about. But that's not my view. After watching the quiet smile that showed on my friend Jack's face, as he caught wild cutts with the rod I made ... that was an experience that I enjoyed tremendously, and I don't think that "drama" is the right word. Happiness comes to mind, satisfaction, and a sort of spiritual joy that someone likes to slow down,and treat the little fish with a lot of respect. Cheers from an apprentice rodmaker in the Orient, Christian --- Tony Young wrote: I know from my own experience if you give aguy a bamboo rod, even one that is some what fasthe'll give it a bit of a cast and wonder what the hell all the drama is about. To- ny_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from LECLAIR123@aol.com Wed Apr 21 21:22:11 1999 Subject: Re: Newbie making chop sticks Mike,You learn a lot from your mistakes. We all learn thesame way and all make the same goofs. That's how you learn.Keep at it, it'll come in time. Dave L. from BambooRods@aol.com Wed Apr 21 21:43:23 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? In a message dated 4/21/99 7:08:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: I am reminded of conversations that I have had with major woodworkers/furniture makers. They have said that the best work being produced is by those "amateurs" due to the fact that more time can be put into the product because the profit magin is not invloved.doug from BambooRods@aol.com Wed Apr 21 21:47:58 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? In a message dated 4/21/99 9:24:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: No Terry they are simply responding to being insulted by someone that had never built a single rod. from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Wed Apr 21 22:47:25 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Hi Ralph, I don't believe that Sue meant "bad" rods. Doesn't the possibility exist bad rods? My guess she is after a middle ground at a middle price with areasonable availability. It however may not exist if one requirement is"made in USA" considering the minimum wage. However if Chinese couldbetrained, I don't see it out of the relm of possibilities. So the question cosmetics, good performance, yet labeled, "MADE IN CHINA", would you buyone? Would anyone in the US? They buy made in China Pfluegers. Regards, BobFly Supplies On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Ralph W Moon wrote: Sue I appreciate the fresh air you sometimes blow into this group.Keep it up. Still I must put in my thoughts and I am not sure if I amwith you or agin you.. I am going to tell you two stories. 1. A ldaybrought me aan old bamboo pole and asked that I restore it. I told herno. She was aghast. Why not? I told her the rod cost less than $5.00forty years ago and had been declining in value ever since. I told herthe $100-200 it would take to fix it was not worth the time and effort.She thought it was. The rod needed straightening, new handle new reelseat new ferrules rewrap and finish. But it still had the hallmarks ofterrible quality control. Virtually every glue joint was ragged andopen. BUT when I cast the rod I decided that it was one of the finestfishing rods I had ever handled. Story 2: I cast a Garrison once andexcept for the investment value I would not have paid more than $25. ItStunk!! There is a place for cheap rods, but I hate to see it. I think of allof the vast number of Japanese rods of Korean War vintage. I have neverseen a good one and I would venture that damned few of those whopurchased them went on to better rods. They were enough to give thewhole industry a bad name. I know you are wondering where all this isleading. It is simply that bamboo rods cannot be lumped into onebarrell. Each rod of each maker must be evaluated on its own merits.Perhaps a cheaper rod may encourage growth in the use of cane, but arash of bad rods can just as easily discourage growth. I am convincedthat an individual maker who takes pride in his work and who has areputation he cherishes will produce a better rod day in and day out. Idon't advertise the guarantee I make, and I hate to even mention it now,but I will. I give any one who gets one of my rods a Lifetime (mine)UNCONDITIONAL guarantee. Repair replacement or money back for anyreason what ever. Run over it with you blazer, break it beating youkid, slam it in a car door, or just bitch about the taper, or theappearance. I would ask Mr. Ackland or Mr. Gehrke if they would offersuch a guarantee. Sue there is room for all of us, but at the end the rod and thefisherman must achieve unity. Ralph from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Apr 21 23:36:51 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id AAA19557; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:36:35 -0400 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Story - Once upon a time there was a rod maker - he loved his workhowever it only yielded a meager living for himself and his family - One ofhis ardent supporters was a very successful business person - when thisperson died his heirs opened a safe to find 200 of the rod makers rods -allunfished.I would suspect that most members of this list are like myself - heldcaptive by the 'Golden Handcuffs' of life - it is only after we are released from these shackles each evening that we can pursue our dreams andhobbyinterests. I'd starve as a full time rod maker - if I were to chose to be myown boss it would be in a field where I know that I can maximize myeffort Perhaps a few fail to realize that it is only after our passing thatsomebody will look at what we have left behind and set about making therealprofit from it.As for George - well when we chatted last I detected that he waspaying several makers have pitched in with information to help him be successfulathis endeavor. He definately has ambition. Perhaps it like farming - he'llkeep at it till the saving account runs dry.Sue - the on demand bamboo fly rod exists - perhaps as many as a dozenor more individuals could put a rod in your hands in very short order -with nothing lacking as far quality or preformance. The rest of us are justa shiftless lot of Trout Bums that rattle around in our caves - monkeyingwith this gadget or that gizmo - or we can't find our way around St Louis -we hang out at trout streams or Spike's Keg- O - Nails or Dale and Rona'slodge doing rodspeak - we don't mow the lawn as often as the wifewishesthat we could - we have these little bags full of reels that value wisecould send a kid through 4 years at Harvard - we raise a few bucks fortheresources - oh - and occassionally we will hustle a buck or two or athousand by making a fly rod - but it usually takes a couple years to get usmotivated enough to do it - and we seem to really really have a good ol'time doing it all. I fail to see the problem. from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Thu Apr 22 00:11:30 1999 out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA19572 for; Thu,22 Apr 1999 05:11:27 GMT Subject: Re:Breaking Cane Rob, Brian, Mark,, I went back to original heat setting after my post &did nodes on two sets of butts (12 strips)with no reoccurance ofbreakage. So unless I run into problems with these strips through finalplaning I'll assume that heat/fast/high was my problem.thanks for inputCraig from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Thu Apr 22 00:27:52 1999 out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA44992 for; Thu,22 Apr 1999 05:27:48 GMT Subject: Re:where are all the rods? Harry, I'm a rod maker , well I've just completed my first, I guessthat's modern?? as for competent ?? I'm very happy with how the rodcasts (T. Smithwick's 5'6") and I could use $700 to fund some road tripsthis spring, are we on?.Actually re testing graphite rods, I know 3 shops in Calgary Albertathat will lend me any rod for up to 1 week to test. I personally willnot spend that amount of money on a rod I cast only in a parking lot orat a trade /sports show.Also like your last statement, it's just fishing after all.CheersCraig from chris@artistree.com Thu Apr 22 01:07:18 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2A=A1?=" Subject: Re: Hello Well, first you're going to have to check and see if it's pinned in anyway. Check carefully as some are very hard to detect after being filesdown. If so you need to carefully remove the pin with the right size pinpunch. Some people have been know to drill out the end(s) of the pin ifall else fails. I'll leave that decision up to your discretion. Then I've had great luck holding just the reel seat in boiling water fora few minutes and checking to see if the glue loosens up. Seems to takearound 5 mins. or so. You usually have to give it a twist to free it. Goeasy as the cane underneath is liable to be soft as well. Of course,wear rubber gloves and wrap the seat with a towel so as not scaldyourself. I haven't really had any problems removing bakelight orplastic seats this way (outside of one that did lighten up just a tad incolor). One draw back is if it's a wood seat with varnish it willprobably need to be refinished. Hope this helps and Good Luck. --Best Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Dick Fogel wrote: Anyone know how to remove a reelseat from bamboo rods particularly aHeddon!! from Eeskil@aol.com Thu Apr 22 01:10:21 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods?IS THIS BUSINESS? I lurk often and I am extremely grateful for the help and information Ihave recieved from the members of the list. This list is extremely generious. All that being said, let crazy George go nuts. If you are truly a hobbiest, who cares about George. If you make your living or a portion of it from rodbuilding, don't worry. Bamboo is almost a nonexistant percentage ofthe flyrod market share. Point being bamboo's market share can only go up. Hell thank crazy George for the advertising. If all goes as he plans there will be a bamboo rod section in every shop. We all know what Gink is. Therewill be more awareness of cane rods and that is good no matter where that awareness comes from. Even if his rods suck, It will give a customer something to compare a good one with. At least people will know canerods exist. It just can't hurt. For those who feel threatned, you should. If all you are selling is a rod, you are missing the boat. Sell the dream, Sell the mystique!!!A couple things to remember. Manufacturing cost is roughly 25% of retail. There is no way in hell he can sell those for $330. Price doesn't make anyone want something. There will always be a market for handmadeitems. Stanley/Lie-neilsen(sp), ruger/purdy, phlueger/abel.... Sit back and watch. This is going to get fun.Erik G. ps Terry's rightpss. the only person who likes to get this list fired up more than Terry is Crazy George. You have got to admire their sense of adventure. XOXOXOXOXO from jwt4639@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Thu Apr 22 07:07:37 1999 with ESMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:07:30 EDT Subject: Re: where are all the rods? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Do not think everyone in the auto industry was thrilled with Henry Fordoriginally. Having read Mr Gehrke's page he appears to be someone who hasafertile mind, been fairly successful with some ideas and some money to beableto follow his dream or vision. I would guess he has had some bombs alongtheway but has not let that stop him. All in all his rods may make good'shortys'someday.Just my thoughts.Jim Tefft Bob Perry wrote: Hi Ralph, I don't believe that Sue meant "bad" rods. Doesn't the possibility exist bad rods? My guess she is after a middle ground at a middle price with areasonable availability. It however may not exist if one requirement is"made in USA" considering the minimum wage. However if Chinese couldbetrained, I don't see it out of the relm of possibilities. So the question cosmetics, good performance, yet labeled, "MADE IN CHINA", would youbuyone? Would anyone in the US? They buy made in China Pfluegers. Regards, BobFly Supplies On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Ralph W Moon wrote: Sue I appreciate the fresh air you sometimes blow into this group.Keep it up. Still I must put in my thoughts and I am not sure if I amwith you or agin you.. I am going to tell you two stories. 1. A ldaybrought me aan old bamboo pole and asked that I restore it. I told herno. She was aghast. Why not? I told her the rod cost less than $5.00forty years ago and had been declining in value ever since. I told herthe $100-200 it would take to fix it was not worth the time and effort.She thought it was. The rod needed straightening, new handle new reelseat new ferrules rewrap and finish. But it still had the hallmarks ofterrible quality control. Virtually every glue joint was ragged andopen. BUT when I cast the rod I decided that it was one of the finestfishing rods I had ever handled. Story 2: I cast a Garrison once andexcept for the investment value I would not have paid more than $25. ItStunk!! There is a place for cheap rods, but I hate to see it. I think of allof the vast number of Japanese rods of Korean War vintage. I haveneverseen a good one and I would venture that damned few of those whopurchased them went on to better rods. They were enough to give thewhole industry a bad name. I know you are wondering where all this isleading. It is simply that bamboo rods cannot be lumped into onebarrell. Each rod of each maker must be evaluated on its own merits.Perhaps a cheaper rod may encourage growth in the use of cane, but arash of bad rods can just as easily discourage growth. I am convincedthat an individual maker who takes pride in his work and who has areputation he cherishes will produce a better rod day in and day out. Idon't advertise the guarantee I make, and I hate to even mention it now,but I will. I give any one who gets one of my rods a Lifetime (mine)> >UNCONDITIONAL guarantee. Repair replacement or money back for anyreason what ever. Run over it with you blazer, break it beating youkid, slam it in a car door, or just bitch about the taper, or theappearance. I would ask Mr. Ackland or Mr. Gehrke if they would offersuch a guarantee. Sue there is room for all of us, but at the end the rod and thefisherman must achieve unity. Ralph from johanyga@online.no Thu Apr 22 09:42:23 1999 (MET DST) Subject: test Test.J.N. from johanyga@online.no Thu Apr 22 09:45:31 1999 Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:45:26 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: SV: Test, Don't open. I did.(in order to test if I'm in or out) ----------Fra: Dennis Haftel Til: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduEmne: Test, Don't open. Caught you! from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Apr 22 09:56:22 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01643 for; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:56:59 -0500 Subject: Story I have been following this tread on Making rods because they and asking a higher price for theirrods ect.I can not go into too much detail here.I have a friend that has a company that makesGraphite rods. He decided to put out his own lineof very good rods at a much lower price. Hereally did not get much response till he took thesame rod and doubled the price and now he can'tkeep up with the orders. I really can't say moreat this time but I know some people think theyhave something expensive to be a good thing.Making things by hand and making things by machineare not the same. The final product may look thesame but there is still a difference. I my selfwould want something special and would pay theextra price because I know what is involved inmaking something by hand. In this case a personwanting a bamboo rod JUST to fish with would notconsider paying a higher price in the first place.I don't think anyone will loose out except thosethat can't deliver what is promised.Take this for what it is worth, it seems that thesame thing is being hashed over and over again.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Apr 22 10:33:40 1999 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Warning non rodmaking. Writen after a few bottles but it isSomethingto rival production rod making. and absent mindedly split bamboo and let my mind wonder, as it will.After a time it came to the mass production of rods, cars, beer, boats etc.Suddenly my feeling of well being vanished. I could almost smell coalsmoke.I stoped splitting and thought "why the hell in this day and age wouldanybody *want* a production bamboo rod when most wouldn't even like itcompared to what the glossys say are better? Besides, plastic is idiotproof as far as breakages go.Is it a "me too" thing, will I become a better caster for it? Is itbecause it's different? What is it?I even thought possibly people would finaly come to the conclusion canereally is better in prob 75% of the real world fresh water fishingconditions but that's not likely because Loomis etc would soon correctthat errant thought.This resurgence of interest is a strange phenomenon if you think about it.I'd almost bet 10 years back there would have been more wheel wrights inthe world than bamboo rod makers. I say that because 10 years back Iknew2 wheel wrights, a cooper and one bamboo rod maker. The rod maker wasthepoor one, come to think about it he was also the crankiest. Nope, the reason is the same as the reason it's getting so hard to findpeace on the stream, impossible to avoid the crowds on the summit of MtEverest with all the trash, air bottles and bodies at every shelteredspot. It's the reason Gardia is to be found in every fresh water body on the planet including the Antartic. The reason is this. Fishing is prob *the* great past time.Mountaineering is thought by many to be the only true sport opposed to agame because you can risk all for no return except personal satisfaction.Seeing the Antartic used to be unique because nobody was there.Bamboo rods aren't for everybody because you have to apreciate theworkings of them and disregard the fables presented by plasticmanufacturers and to a large extent within certain age/stations peerpresure to always want the latest. Hambergers can taste pretty good. Because these things and many, many, many more besides are such greatthings to do, everybody wants to do them, but it has to be *NOW!*, so youlitteraly have crowds at 28,000 feet, the good fishing spots are shoulderto shoulder, sewage problems in the Antartic and MacDonalds every bloodyplace. People expect to buy a rod anytime off the shelf, meaning I suppose thetype of rod isn't important as long as it's bamboo. Along the way all these things have lost the original meaning for doingthem in the first place and it's the punter who looses without evenrealising it. If Terry and George and anybody else want to grind out rods while thependulum is swinging in their direction I say more power to them, theseguys aren't creating the demand, just filling it. Good luck to them butwhen the market bottoms as it surely must the hobyist's will keep theflame alive till the next time around. Jerry, please don't include this in the archives. Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from brookie@frii.com Thu Apr 22 11:06:10 1999 Subject: production v. homegrown Well rodmakers list, I clearly stepped into it. Had a sneaking suspicion I would. I've beenon listservs before and could have sensed the reaction. It would be likegoing on a flytiers listserv, asking why they tie by hand and how comethere are no mass-machine-produced flies that cost $.20 each andavailablein the grocery store ? It sounds like this discussion of production v. non, has gone on severaltimes on this list before. That's the problem with newcomers, theysometimes barg right in with their brand of questions. But consider this,there are over 600 members to your listserv. About 25 speak regularly asfar as I can tell. Don't know, but would guess that not all of the 600 AREbuilders. There are a bunch of us that are customers, or potential ones ;or we just love the look, feel of cane ; or we're out and out flyfishersthat inhale, ingest and absorb most anything we can about flyfishing. So many comments to my post. Interesting. Trust me, myself and otherslearned from the exchange. Bottom line for me, I love quality products. I love handmade, e.g.,non- production-line machined products. I've got, just in the flyfishingarena, handmade rods, wading staff, furled leaders, chest pack, tippetholders, and even an opportunity for a reel if I would speak up. I seekquality and handmade as funds permit. More often though funds are NOTthere. So I think alternatives. Hence the question about less expensive rods,and rods more quickly produced. I can see that was somewhat naivelystated on my part now. A clarification here, I am not asking these questions in the hopes I can orwill get a rod. I am not in the market right now at all. I ask thequestions to generate some dialogue that I hope will answer some of myquestions , and that of others. You realize don't you, those that follow this wandering kind of thoughtprocess, that what I'm probably leading up to personally is somedaygathering the materials , equipment and what's that word ( hustzpah ? ) ,and just building one of my own. So fellow cane lovers, don't think ill of my posts. I realize I rattle thebars a bit. Just trying to get out of the cage sometimes ( smile ).This list appears to be very technically oriented and I can appreciate why.Folks like me are interested in the non-technical aspects, and if you'llbear with me for awhile, I'll probably get what I need and mosey. Likethe Stones say, ' you can't always get what you want, but if you trysometimes, you get what you need...' Thanks for all the postings.Newbies wander into this place all the time, and a rehash of some of theold threads can't be all that bad ... suecolorado from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Apr 22 12:14:40 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods?IS THIS BUSINESS? All that being said, let crazy George go nuts. If you are truly a hobbiest,who cares about George. If you make your living or a portion of it from rodbuilding, don't worry. Bamboo is almost a nonexistant percentage of the flyrod market share. Point being bamboo's market share can only go up. Hell thank crazy George for the advertising. That's the way I look at it. I started flyfishing with a $50 Cortland flyfishingrod. I had fun, caught fish, enjoyed the sport. But, I still admired the $300Orvis, Sage, Winstons. Then I "graduated" to the good equipment (graphite).Was it better? Well... yes it was. Was it $250 better? Depends on yourvalueof $250. And... I admired the $1500 bamboo rods. No way I could afford to"graduate" to the cane rods, so I started making my own. If there had beena $500 or less new cane rod (let's face it - you have to aquire a taste for the old cane rods that are in that price range), I would have bought one. Acoupleyears later, with my aquired appreciation of bamboo, I would have startedlooking at the "one off" craftsman made rods - what I am making now.Gherke's $300 bamboo rods (going to be $500 in my opinion) will be a boonto "hobbiest" rodmakers like most of us. It will get a lot more people intothe cane market, and craftsmen like us will sell every rod we can make. But, if I was trying to get into the mass produced cane rod market, Iwould resent Gherke's efforts, because I don't think there is enoughroom for more than a couple companies mass producing bamboo rods(depending on how many rods are produced by each company of course). Darryl from mdell@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Thu Apr 22 12:18:37 1999 with ESMTP id LAA176608;Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:18:31 -0600 (mdell@localhost) with SMTP id LAA118380;Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:18:30 -0600 Subject: Re: production v. homegrown Sue, I am one of the silent 575 who rarely posts, but follows some threadswithinterest. And this is one of the interesting ones. I love cane rods. I want to find out all I can about making them, andmaybe, someday, I will attempt to make one. But for now I just want tolisten to cane rodmakers talk. I have an old production cane rod that belonged to my uncle, and then myfather had it for a long time, and finally last summer I saw it in a pileof fibreglass spinning rods at the farm. I said, "that's a cane rod?" andmy mother said I might as well take the lot because my father wouldnevermiss them. I did. The rod has no markings, but it is a 7'9" 3 piece withred wraps and yellow trim, and a silver reel seat. The cork handle hid awooden dowel that the bamboo shaft is glued into. Not a quality product. I am refinishing it and learning a lot in the process. I stripped thevarnish and saved the guides and came up with a match for the thread. Itook off the cork handle and made a new one from rings. The tip wasbroken so I got Don Andersen to scarf in a new one. Don's frank opinionwas that the rod wasn't worth saving, the glue work is poor, the tip takessets easily, and it will probably break on a big fish. But I want tofinish it anyway. What I still have left to do is varathane the shaft, wrap the guides, andvarnish them. I want to fish it a couple times, catch a few small fish,and then put it on the wall. Hopefully I won't break it, but if I do Donsays I can learn all about repairing broken rods. So even if the discussion gets a little technical I am here to absorbwhatever I can. Michael MICHAEL DELL http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/trouthttp://www.telusplanet.net/public/dmanders from brookie@frii.com Thu Apr 22 12:29:14 1999 Subject: Granger tapers Didn't I see someone recently ask for postings of Granger tapers ? Under8' I believe it was ? or ? I'm in the Will of a dear friend for one ofhis Grangers, an 8'. Years ago when I first saw and handled it, I WASenamored. I must have mentioned casually, ' hey put me in the Will forthis one ' ... Now everytime I visit him, or he comes to Colorado I flingin the grass on the lawn with it. It borders on the " recite the OldTestament " kind of backcast time, but by the time I get this ( hopefullythe Will being read some years or decades from now ), I will haveprogressed to ability to slow-that-backcast-down ! from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Apr 22 12:33:33 1999 Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:33:29 -0400 "Sue K." Subject: RE: production v. homegrown I would very much appreciate the list abandoning this topic and returningtoits reason for being, that is, the discussion of how to make fly rods.Topics like this are fun and attractive - you don't have to know anything atall to join right in with your opinion/anecdote/speculation. But they donot teach anybody anything and, frankly, I don't have the time to wadethrough all this self indulgence in search of something useful. Sign me "Impatient in Vermont." from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Apr 22 12:47:17 1999 Subject: Re: Story We are talking fishing poles here not hand carved decoys for decorativepurposes.If you build rods to sell they must not vary from one to the other. If aguys buys a 7ft 6in 4 weight from you because his friend has one and heliked the action it, must be duplicated. If you cannot duplicate the rodthere will only be disappointment. The best way to to build rods that donot vary from rod to rod is by controlling all your processes andworking to strict limits.A fishing rod is a tool and many of the processes that make a good rodsuch as heat treatment, impregnation and moisture content control areindustrial processes and must be addressed as such.I cannot see the difference between a guy rubbing a plane back andforward and another feeding a strip through a beveller. Surely both rodswill be hand made when finished if that is the only difference? Perhapsit is the thought of the guy being able to produce at a faster rate?Production to me does not mean cheap rods. It means working in batchesusing labour saving devices and breaking tasks down in to smallcomponents so that it is possible to hire help and make quality rodsmore available.Take a look at the cheaper production rods of the past and you will findthe cane work to be surprisingly good. The difference is in the qualityof the hardware only.It is not about producing cheap rods, it is about making split bamboorods in the same professional manner as Payne, Leonard and Orvis andgetting away from the craft fair concept.T.Ackland Tony Spezio wrote: I have been following this tread on Making rods because they and asking a higher price for theirrods ect.I can not go into too much detail here.I have a friend that has a company that makesGraphite rods. He decided to put out his own lineof very good rods at a much lower price. Hereally did not get much response till he took thesame rod and doubled the price and now he can'tkeep up with the orders. I really can't say moreat this time but I know some people think theyhave something expensive to be a good thing.Making things by hand and making things by machineare not the same. The final product may look thesame but there is still a difference. I my selfwould want something special and would pay theextra price because I know what is involved inmaking something by hand. In this case a personwanting a bamboo rod JUST to fish with would notconsider paying a higher price in the first place.I don't think anyone will loose out except thosethat can't deliver what is promised.Take this for what it is worth, it seems that thesame thing is being hashed over and over again.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Apr 22 12:59:19 1999 "Sue K." , rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: production v. homegrown Go and buy the bloody books like we all did and develop your owntechniques. Oris this too much like hard work? Seth Steinzor wrote: I would very much appreciate the list abandoning this topic and returningtoits reason for being, that is, the discussion of how to make fly rods.Topics like this are fun and attractive - you don't have to know anythingatall to join right in with your opinion/anecdote/speculation. But they donot teach anybody anything and, frankly, I don't have the time to wadethrough all this self indulgence in search of something useful. Sign me "Impatient in Vermont." from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Apr 22 13:15:16 1999 Subject: Re: production v. homegrown At 09:59 AM 4/22/99 -0600, Sue K. wrote:......how comethere are no mass- machine-produced flies.....? Boy, there's a machine I'd like to see! We could get one of the productionfolks to work on that. Maybe right after they figure out that 10 minuterod. GWH from rmoon@ida.net Thu Apr 22 13:38:04 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Warning non rodmaking. Writen after a few bottles but it isSomethingto rival production rod making. Jerry, please don't include this in the archives. Why not Tony. It says it allRalph from freaner@gte.net Thu Apr 22 13:42:56 1999 Subject: Fwd: Re: Story TERENCE ACKLAND writes: Perhapsit is the thought of the guy being able to produce at a faster rate?Production to me does not mean cheap rods. It means working in batchesusing labour saving devices and breaking tasks down in to smallcomponents so that it is possible to hire help and make quality rodsmore available. Terry makes a very good point here. I know something about industrial processes, particularly what makes them expensive or not expensive. The number one cost element to control in industrial processes is set-up time. Back in my contractor cost analysis days, we showed management that constantly breaking the production line because of a change in priorities cost millions - and it was almost all because of having to re-do the set-ups over and over and over. Much of our machining had to be accurate to less than .001 inch, and it would take a machinist sometimes a complete day to set up the machine for a part that would take 15 minutes to mill. Obviously, you'd want to do the entire production run of 500 before you tore it down, but when the priorities changed, you might only get 10 made before having to do something else. Having never made a cane rod, I can still say that one of the things George G. is doing RIGHT is to work in batches. If you read his web page, he splits a bunch of culms. He then heat treats many bunches of splits. When he straightens nodes, he does it for a whole lot of rods at once. The milling will save him some setup and run time, if he does a bunch at once. The same thing could be done by the person with a hand plane. Do 10 7'6" 4wt butt sections at the same time - from splitting to heat treating to rough planing to finish planing to ... Production environment is controlling the processes - to ensure consistency and quality- speed, and subsequent lower cost, are useful by-products. Claude from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Thu Apr 22 13:58:45 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Story Hi Claude, Isn't is also true that if you do things in bunches, if you don't have aclue as to how to do it right, you could end up with a whole pile of junk?ie. a mistake repeated over and over again. Regards, Bob On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Claude Freaner wrote: TERENCE ACKLAND writes: Perhapsit is the thought of the guy being able to produce at a faster rate?Production to me does not mean cheap rods. It means working inbatchesusing labour saving devices and breaking tasks down in to smallcomponents so that it is possible to hire help and make quality rodsmore available. Terry makes a very good point here. I know something about industrial processes, particularly what makes them expensive or not expensive. The number one cost element to control in industrial processes is set-up time. Back in my contractor cost analysis days, we showed management that constantly breaking the production line because of a change in priorities cost millions - and it was almost all because of having to re-do the set-ups over and over and over. Much of our machining had to be accurate to less than .001 inch, and it would take a machinist sometimes a complete day to set up the machine for a part that would take 15 minutes to mill. Obviously, you'd want to do the entire production run of 500 before you tore it down, but when the priorities changed, you might only get 10 made before having to do something else. Having never made a cane rod, I can still say that one of the things George G. is doing RIGHT is to work in batches. If you read his web page, he splits a bunch of culms. He then heat treats many bunches of splits. When he straightens nodes, he does it for a whole lot of rods at once. The milling will save him some setup and run time, if he does a bunch at once. The same thing could be done by the person with a hand plane. Do 10 7'6" 4wt butt sections at the same time - from splitting to heat treating to rough planing to finish planing to ... Production environment is controlling the processes - to ensure consistency and quality- speed, and subsequent lower cost, are useful by-products. Claude from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Thu Apr 22 16:16:04 1999 0400 Subject: Elephant silk Does anyone one know how the Elephant silk sizes correlate to Gudebrod? Iwantsomething thinner than Gudebrod's 00. On the Belvoirdale site, generic 00issupposedly the same as Elephant 60, but I heard from someone that the 40(Aelsewhere according to the site) was already thinner than 00. Anyoneknow forsure...the stuff ain't cheap...thanks, Andy from chris@artistree.com Thu Apr 22 17:01:00 1999 Subject: Re: Elephant silk You know this question comes up a lot in regard to Belvoirdale's silk. Thesmallest silk size (diameter wise) he carries is LARGER than the modernGudebrod(OO). Since there seems to be confusion over the 2 different sizes he sellsIrecommend you place the order over the phone and make it clear you wantthefinest diameter he carries. from my conversations with him he's dealtwith thisissue a few times before. Now having said that, I don't think this silk is all that bad of a match forsomeof those production rods with variegated silk. It's pretty much the onlygame intown outside those Granger/W&M spools that popped up & were sold withCentennialrecently. Also, I have also seen that he has a perfect match for the Hardy rod colorsifany one is looking for those. As always, I have no financial interest. Regards,Chris Wohlford andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Does anyone one know how the Elephant silk sizes correlate to Gudebrod?I wantsomething thinner than Gudebrod's 00. On the Belvoirdale site, generic 00issupposedly the same as Elephant 60, but I heard from someone that the40 (Aelsewhere according to the site) was already thinner than 00. Anyoneknow forsure...the stuff ain't cheap...thanks, Andy from jczimny@dol.net Thu Apr 22 18:13:37 1999 -0400 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Elephant silk AndyThere are several brands of silk available to the rod maker. As well asElephant, thereare the Pearsall's gossamer and YLI. YLI is available from George Maurerand DaveLeclair. I believe the Pearslls is available from Russ Gooding.The Japanese silk is of excellent quality and is sold in dernier sizesJohn Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Elephant silk Does anyone one know how the Elephant silk sizes correlate to Gudebrod? Iwantsomething thinner than Gudebrod's 00. On the Belvoirdale site, generic 00issupposedly the same as Elephant 60, but I heard from someone that the 40(Aelsewhere according to the site) was already thinner than 00. Anyoneknow forsure...the stuff ain't cheap...thanks, Andy from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Apr 22 18:15:39 1999 via smap (4.1) 16:24:09 PDT Subject: RE: Elephant Silk Andy, What Chris Wohlford said is good advice. The smallest varigated I have bought is larger then 00, which may be O.K. in some applications. I've decided it's just bigger then anything I want to use any more. The problem with the size is in the website information. I have used some solid colors which are fine as far as size goes, somewhere in the 00 range. I don't know what the size number is on them, because they were given to me by a friend and didn't have a label. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from ljrp@penn.com Thu Apr 22 18:16:25 1999 Subject: Thanks to all for Heddon Reelseat info. from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Apr 22 18:25:53 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0236ED0146; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:26:27 EDT Subject: Re: Story Terry,You said " If you cannot duplicate the rodthere will only be disappointment. The best way to to build rods that donot vary from rod to rod is by controlling all your processes andworking to strict limits." But not even the best shops using production methods (e.g., Payne) couldturn out a "batch" of rods with the same action. They might look the same,but the differences in the cane (how much power fibre in the tip, mid,butt)made them unique. Steel it ain't. You also noted, "Take a look at the cheaper production rods of the pastand you will find the cane work to be surprisingly good. The difference isin the quality of the hardware only." I agree that the cane work is often good as regards an absence of gluelines, but the rods were typically made oversize to compensate for poorquality cane, or to enable powersanding after glue-up. The taper of a SouthBend, H-I, or most Montagues is no joy.Otherwise, I guess I agree with you, production is just a slur which canapplied equally to Payne or Montague.Best regards,Reed from bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.net Thu Apr 22 18:36:39 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Story boundary="------------B9927E8AF474597CF40D9DC4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- B9927E8AF474597CF40D9DC4 Reed- Most South Bends are not sublime, but some are rather good. All aremost likely too fast for your taste, but I've cast a couple of keepers. Brian --------------B9927E8AF474597CF40D9DC4 name="bdcreek.vcf" filename="bdcreek.vcf" begin:vcard n:Creek;Brian adr:;;;;;;version:2.1email;internet:bdcreek@grand-rapids.crosswinds.netnote: fn:Brian Creekend:vcard --------------B9927E8AF474597CF40D9DC4-- from dpeaston@wzrd.com Thu Apr 22 19:02:15 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods?IS THIS BUSINESS? At 01:13 PM 4/22/1999 EDT, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: If there had beena $500 or less new cane rod (let's face it - you have to aquire a taste for the old cane rods that are in that price range), I would have bought one. Acoupleyears later, with my aquired appreciation of bamboo, I would havestartedlooking at the "one off" craftsman made rods - what I am making now.Gherke's $300 bamboo rods (going to be $500 in my opinion) will be aboonto "hobbiest" rodmakers like most of us. It will get a lot more people intothe cane market, and craftsmen like us will sell every rod we can make. But, if I was trying to get into the mass produced cane rod market, Iwould resent Gherke's efforts, because I don't think there is enoughroom for more than a couple companies mass producing bamboo rods(depending on how many rods are produced by each company of course). Darryl Since we are comparing apples to oranges to gink, I thought I might sharewith you recent auction prices that old cane rods that have brought oneBay's on line auction. A good measure of what people think these rods areworth. There is the wide variety and a good price range.People buyingthesemight be persuaded to by hand planed rods in the future. BTW I am curiousabout Red Sutton (rod listed below)who built Para's in 1952. from what Icould tell they were simple (like EC Powell) and very well made. Date Maker Model Condition Price at Auction4/21/99 Constable RH Woods Dual 6'-6'9" E 426 3/7/99 EC Powell 9' 4" Salmon Rod E 381 3/19/99 Edwards Stoddard Favorite VG 2524/21/99 F.E. Thomas Browntone Sp. 9' VG-E 5564/4/99 Farlow Norm Thompson 8' E 1703/28/99 Folsom (Heddon?) #1510 8' 9" G-VG 1472/27/99 Gene Edwards A & F Favorite 7.5" E (R?) 6102/27/99 Goodwin Granger Special 8' VG 5702/27/99 Granger Champion 7'10" R 2654/21/99 Orvis Shooting Star 9'6" 9wt VG 3453/30/99 Phillipson Paragon 9' R 3014/11/99 Phillipson Paramount 9' E 2053/18/99 Phillipson Pacemaker 9' VG 2054/11/9 Phillipson Pacemaker 8'6" E 1784/11/9 Red Sutton (Flint, MI) 8'6" Para. 1952 E 2673/6/99 Heddon #14 8.5' 5.2 oz G-VG 2433/5/99 Heddon #14 8.5' VG 2434/21/99 Heddon Black Beauty #17 8'6" E-R 2264/11/99 Heddon James Heddon-Streamer 9' G 177 -Doug Easton____________(____________|===========================o/ 0 \ / | \__/ \ / Douglas Easton | \ / |\____/ Dpeaston@wzrd.com | |* from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Apr 22 19:17:25 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AC3646700D0; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:17:58 EDT Subject: Re: Story Brian,Always ready to learn. I've heard some good reports of the #290.My tastes seem to be a matter of record, now. Alright, everyone send allthose old wetfly actions my way.Best regards,Reed Brian Creek wrote: Reed- Most South Bends are not sublime, but some are rather good. All aremost likely too fast for your taste, but I've cast a couple of keepers. Brian from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Apr 22 19:26:34 1999 Subject: Elephant Silk Hi Andrew,During a Corbett Lake British Columbia bamboo rodbuilders workshop in1992Mr. Richard Sherman of Huntington Beach California presented a wonderfulsummary for us regarding thread manufacturers, sources, and sizecomparisons. He used an optical comparator to produce the following data:Gudebrod Nylon size "A" = 0.010" diameterGudebrod Nylon size "AA" = 0.008" diameterElephant silk 40 din = "A" = 0.010" diameterPhoenix silk 60 din = "OO" = 0.008" diameterGudebrod silk "OO" = 0.008" diameterPearsall silk "6-0" = 0.006" diameter In his documentation Richard indicated that Elephant silk is "pure nett"silk thread which produces a finish without "whiskers or hairs". It alsostates that size 60 is equivalent to "OO", size 40 is equivalent to "A",and size 24 is equivalent to "C". Now that I look closely at this data I wonder if the Gudebrod nylon size"AA" isn't actually supposed to be size "OO".Ray from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Apr 22 19:52:42 1999 Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:52:30 -0400 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? =_NextPart_000_01BE8D01.AA2FDDE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D01.AA2FDDE0 Harley-Davidson makes a terrific motorcycle. But if you discovered thatthe engines of the 747 you're taking to Europe were built by Harley, wouldyou fly? There is quality, and there is quality. It ain't all the same... from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Apr 22 20:21:39 1999 Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:21:31 -0400 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? =_NextPart_000_01BE8D05.BBC734A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D05.BBC734A0 Indeed, Terry, production rod-making has to be re-invented. That is, iftruly high quality is going to be attained at a reasonable price. One canbuy an Orvis cane rod, for instance, for upwards of $1,600, but thatstrikes me as absurd. Its quality is only ordinary, as compared with theresults of some of our hand builders. And it is true, too, that most of the rods built in America's "golden age" were production rods, but in all honesty, most of them were also onlyordinary. Just the smallest handful of makers from those early yearswerecapable of building a truly fine rod. It's more the mystique than the rodthat keeps most of those makers' fame alive. Certainly none of the rodslooked like much, compared to our current results, and their glues,varnishes, reel-seats, ferrules and other hardware absolutely SUCKEDcompared to what is now available. As to Gehrke's ultimate chances of success, I would rate them asslim-to- none. Gehrke has no eyes whatever to see himself, is addicted tohis own ego, and is utterly incapable of understanding what he is actuallydoing. Whatever another builder believes to be correct, Gehrke assumes tobe wrong. Gehrke's greatest pleasure comes not from rod-building, but from marketing himself as a rare genius for purposes of showing others tobe fools. He is positively delighted with himself, and displays hisdysfunction as if it were a badge of distinction. I am sorry, Terry,because I too wish it were otherwise, but I sincerely doubt that Gehrkehasany answers for us. cheers, Bill ----------From: Rick Crenshaw Cc: HARMS1@prodigy.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: where are all the rods?Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 6:40 PM This is scary, but I have to say that I agree with most of what Mr.Ackland has to say here. I do take exception to the comment that Mr.Gerhke 'has the right stuff'. I find Mr. Gerhke's attitude to beself-righteous and self- inflating. I am sure Mr. Gerhke's 'confidence'act is just that. It appears that if he hears an opinion and it doesn'tring false, then it must be true. I'm not sure Gerhke knows his stuff,in fact, I'd be that he doesn't (although I bet he's getting a realeducation right now!). I will say that if Mr. Gerhke has put the amount of capital he says hehas on the project, he is either a visionary or a fool. Time will tell.Problem is, after reading his prose, I don't feel confident that hetells the unadultarated truth, nor in fact, KNOWS the truth of which heexclaims so vigorously. Rick C.TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Bill,I am talking about trying to build rods professionally and not justprofessional looking rods. Most of the builders on this list areproducing professional rods by unprofessional means that is why we allhave day jobs.I am not putting down hand planing, it is the only way for an amateurtobuild rods without too much outlay. Saying that, if you go the dip tankand fancy binder and oven route you are obliged to try to hawk a fewrods to recover some of the cost.Gehrk wants to make production rods as good as the best hand planedrodsas these are the yardstick because that is all there is. Remember allrods were production rods back in the golden era. Garrison would havebeen lost in the mists of time had it been not for the book. The bookand all the books since have picked up on this amateur method andelevated it to rodmaking proper.Is it possible to build a production rod as good as a hand planedoffering? Sure, it's been done in the past. Is it possible for $330?nope, not with just one beveler.Precision cane cutting takes time whether you hand plane or mill. Withmachines you are not restricted to just one machine, you can have arowof them working away with perhaps one operator.I think George has the right stuff but lacks experience and is takingadvice from people that know nothing of production rodmaking.Production rodmaking has to be re-invented.Terry------ =_NextPart_000_01BE8D05.BBC734A0 Indeed, Terry, production = with the results of some of our hand builders.And it is true, =too, that most of the rods built in America's "golden age" = the mystique than the rod that keeps most of those makers' fame alive. = = ferrules and other hardware absolutely SUCKED compared to what is now =available.As to Gehrke's ultimate chances of success, I would = =greatest pleasure comes not from rod-building, but from marketing =himself as a rare genius for purposes of showing others to be fools. = Terry, because I too wish it were otherwise, but I sincerely doubt that = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D05.BBC734A0-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Apr 22 21:20:29 1999 Subject: REC Uni-Ferrules Some of the builders on the list have been trying REC'snew Uni-Ferrule and have liked them. Except for the RECLogo on them. As I worked with Alan for quite some timehelping him set his production up, I called him to ask aboutthe logo and could they be purchased without the logo on them. He said after the ferrules are machined, they are placedinto stock. Once an order has been placed, they are then laserengraved with the logo, before they go out.He said, if any one wants to order the Uni-Ferruleswithout the logo, to just specify that you do not want thelogo on the ferrules and he will leave it off.I hope this will help some of the guys that would like touse his ferrules and not have there logo on them. Dave LeClair from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 21:52:10 1999 Subject: Fwd: Re[2]: Elephant silk boundary="=PMail:=_0002@@4vV8KehrKEwKtNCkytow" --=PMail:=_0002@@4vV8KehrKEwKtNCkytow Subject: Re[2]: Elephant silk Hi Gang...