I've not been getting the list for about 3 weeks... (ISP problems, harddisk reformat, new email address and more) anyway, I came across someRayon varigated thread size 00, beautiful colors, looked like a prettygood match for the black/white variegated silk and others... anybodywillin=gto confess to having tried the stuff? =I also came across some old Gudebrod variegated black/white 00 thread...had to buy 34 spools of other thread to get that one spool and a few otherimpossible to find old silks... I have 27 spools of thread for sale onebay... Darrell L.=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Re: Elephant silk You know this question comes up a lot in regard to Belvoirdale's silk.Thesmallest silk size (diameter wise) he carries is LARGER than the modernGudebrod(OO). Since there seems to be confusion over the 2 different sizes hesells Irecommend you place the order over the phone and make it clear you wantthefinest diameter he carries. from my conversations with him he's dealtwith thisissue a few times before. Now having said that, I don't think this silk is all that bad of a match of those production rods with variegated silk. It's pretty much the onlygame intown outside those Granger/W&M spools that popped up & were sold withCentennialrecently. Also, I have also seen that he has a perfect match for the Hardy rodcolors= ifany one is looking for those. As always, I have no financial interest. Regards,Chris Wohlford andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Does anyone one know how the Elephant silk sizes correlate to Gudebrod?I wantsomething thinner than Gudebrod's 00. On the Belvoirdale site, generic00 issupposedly the same as Elephant 60, but I heard from someone that the40 (Aelsewhere according to the site) was already thinner than 00. Anyoneknow forsure...the stuff ain't cheap...thanks, Andy --=PMail:=_0002@@4vV8KehrKEwKtNCkytow-- from Pkozak@webtv.net Thu Apr 22 22:07:47 1999 282.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with 282.iap.bryant.webtv.net(8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id UAA29673; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:07:45 -0700 ETAtAhQnVRfADpYFfOoTJ4W0ZWAZVf8ARAIVALjQLASBOGZYe1Vbz6Xg49WMql/G Subject: unsubscribe from jczimny@dol.net Fri Apr 23 08:18:36 1999 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re[2]: Elephant silk I've tried it. It appears to look the same as silk. Only one problem, as faras I'vebeen able to determine, it isavailable in only size 40 denier. That is about size A. No finer sizes seemto beavailable.John Z Darrell Lee wrote: Subject: Re[2]: Elephant silkDate: 4/22/99 7:50 PM Hi Gang... I've not been getting the list for about 3 weeks... (ISP problems, harddisk reformat, new email address and more) anyway, I came across someRayon varigated thread size 00, beautiful colors, looked like a prettygood match for the black/white variegated silk and others... anybodywillingto confess to having tried the stuff? I also came across some oldGudebrod variegatedblack/white 00 thread...had to buy 34 spools of other thread to get that one spool and a fewotherimpossible to find old silks... I have 27 spools of thread for sale onebay... Darrell L.======================================== From: Chris Wohlford cc: Internet Mail::[RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu]Subject: Re: Elephant silkDate: 4/22/99 3:05 PM You know this question comes up a lot in regard to Belvoirdale's silk.Thesmallest silk size (diameter wise) he carries is LARGER than the modernGudebrod(OO). Since there seems to be confusion over the 2 different sizes hesells Irecommend you place the order over the phone and make it clear youwantthefinest diameter he carries. from my conversations with him he's dealtwith thisissue a few times before. Now having said that, I don't think this silk is all that bad of a match of those production rods with variegated silk. It's pretty much the onlygame intown outside those Granger/W&M spools that popped up & were sold withCentennialrecently. Also, I have also seen that he has a perfect match for the Hardy rodcolorsifany one is looking for those. As always, I have no financial interest. Regards,Chris Wohlford andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote: Does anyone one know how the Elephant silk sizes correlate toGudebrod?I wantsomething thinner than Gudebrod's 00. On the Belvoirdale site, generic00 issupposedly the same as Elephant 60, but I heard from someone that the40 (Aelsewhere according to the site) was already thinner than 00. Anyoneknow forsure...the stuff ain't cheap...thanks, Andy from jfoster@gte.net Fri Apr 23 10:32:54 1999 Subject: Re: where are all the rods? Thanks to all, and you know who you are !! regards Jerry from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Apr 23 10:35:36 1999 Subject: rodmaking stuff Some rod making stuff for that miserable git in Vermont. I have purchased a neat little heat gun made by Ryobi (model : HG-100)It is shaped like a Dremel grinder. It has a 1/2 in nozzle and delivers660deg f. The unit is 8in long and 2in dia. and weighs in at less than alb. It works great on nodes where heat can be concentrated on a smallarea.Cost, $20 Can with a 2 year warranty.T. Ackland from pmartino@fvcc.cc.mt.us Fri Apr 23 13:02:41 1999 Subject: plaining injury Dear Listmembers, I am currently working on my second rod and have noticed, as before while working on my first, that the finger adjacent to my pinky on the hand that holds the plane is going numb. The numbness lasted throughout the rodmaking process with the first rod and left about a week after final planning. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is it something that I need to be concerned about? Is there a way to protect my finger while holding the plane? Perhaps I'm holding the plane incorrectly.... Best Regards, Paul Kalispell, MT from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Apr 23 13:52:31 1999 Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:50:59 -0400 Subject: Re: plaining injury =_NextPart_000_01BE8D98.54ECC0E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D98.54ECC0E0 I don't know, Paul. I wonder if you could try one of those "finger-cotts" that folks use to turn page after page of paper. I'm certainly no doctor,but I can't imagine you are actually doing harm to your finger. Still,it's an annoyance, and it's probably not going to go away with futureplaning if everything remains the same. Or, how about sticking some of that Dr. Scholes "moleskin" foot-padmaterial to the side of the plane, just where your finger grips? Best of luck, Bill ----------From: Paul Martino Subject: plaining injuryDate: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:02 PM Dear Listmembers, I am currently working on my second rod and have noticed, as before while working on my first, that the finger adjacent to my pinky on the hand that holds the plane is going numb. The numbness lasted throughout the rodmaking process with the first rod and left about a week after final planning. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is it something that I need to be concerned about? Is there a way to protect my finger while holding the plane? Perhaps I'm holding the plane incorrectly.... Best Regards, Paul Kalispell, MT ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D98.54ECC0E0 = doctor, but I can't imagine you are actually doing harm to your finger. = with future planing if everything remains the same.Or, how about= material to the side of the plane, just where your finger = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE8D98.54ECC0E0-- from robert.kope@cwix.com Fri Apr 23 14:26:29 1999 with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:25:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: plaining injury Paul, Been there. I had the same problem on my first 2 rods, but haven't had itsince. I now use finger cots on all fingers of my left hand (holding thebamboo strip) and on the thumb, middle, and ring fingers of the right hand(holding the plane). The finger cots help, but you should also make sureyour plane blade is really sharp, and relax your grip. You may be grippingthe plane too tightly trying to control it. If the blade is really sharp itis much easier to control and take less effort to plane. One last bit ofadvice is don't plane for too long at any one time. I don't know how much the finger cots help, and how much you just toughenupover time. I ride a bicycle to work in the summer, but don't ride in thewinter. I have always had a problem with numbness the first couple ofridesin the spring, and then no real problems the rest of the summer. Thedoctors say that bicyclists may be doing permanent damage (i.e.,irreversible impotence) and that the numbness is an early warning signcaused by inadequate blood flow, so I now do all I can to aviod numbness inany body parts. Hope this helps, -- Robert -----Original Message----- Subject: plaining injury Dear Listmembers, I am currently working on my second rod and have noticed, as beforewhile working on my first, that the finger adjacent to my pinky onthe hand that holds the plane is going numb. The numbness lastedthroughout the rodmaking process with the first rod and left about aweek after final planning. Has anyone else experienced this problem?Is it something that I need to be concerned about? Is there a way toprotect my finger while holding the plane? Perhaps I'm holding theplane incorrectly.... Best Regards, Paul Kalispell, MT from anglport@con2.com Fri Apr 23 14:45:49 1999 Subject: Re: plaining injury Paul, This is a reach, but it could be the size or shape of the plane you'reusing.I think the 9 1/2 and the Lie-Nielsen are slightly different and mostothers are grossly different in their configuration and size and it may bethat your fingers just fit the one you're using in a peculiar way that'scausing the problem.I am lucky (obsessive/compulsive?) enough to have 4 or 5 differentplaneswhich I can rotate through and I know that some of them tend to give thefeeling I'll get a blister if I don't switch sometimes. They're allStanleys or knock-offs of the 9 1/2 but each has its own quirk.Possibly even adding a little padding to the part in your palm couldraisethe contact-points of your fingers on the side?Just a thought,Art At 12:27 PM 4/23/99 -0700, robert.kope wrote:At 12:02 PM 4/23/99 - 0700, Paul Martino wrote:Dear Listmembers, I am currently working on my second rod and have noticed, as before while working on my first, that the finger adjacent to my pinky on the hand that holds the plane is going numb. The numbness lasted throughout the rodmaking process with the first rod and left about a week after final planning. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Is it something that I need to be concerned about? Is there a way to protect my finger while holding the plane? Perhaps I'm holding the plane incorrectly.... Best Regards, Paul Kalispell, MT from sats@gte.net Fri Apr 23 18:27:39 1999 Subject: Rod making as an occupation. I've debated doing this several times but here goes anyway. We all know what it takes in material to make a bamboo rod (but I'll list itanyway). from the tip: Note these prices are off the top of my head and are for more or less topendrods. You can get some things for less. This is for a 2p rod.Bamboo $30Tip top $2Guides $15Ferrules $40Stripper $5Winding cheek $3cork grip $25Reel seat $45Glue and thread $10Rod sack and tube $25 Let's say for sake of this argument that the final price comes out to $200material. This is money that you'll never recover, no matter how manyrods youbuild. As the number of rods goes up, so does the cost of material. (I heartwo arguments coming from the gathering. (a) I can buy in mass and (b) Icanmake my own.more on this later.) In addition to this there's costs that are going to be there if you build 1 or1000 rods a month. Overhead costs, electricity, shelter, Propane, tools.This cost is a variable based on the number of rods you build, as quantitygoesup price per unit goes down. (There are breaking points. Need more room? Haveto rent a larger production facility. Overhead cost goes up.) So you can figure your profit P=S-(o/x)-m. Where P = profit per rod,S=saleprice. x= no of rods built, (o/x) is overhead and m= material costs. Let'ssayoverhead comes out to $150 a month. If I build one rod and sell it for $1000 1000-150-200 = 600 profit. Nowit took me 40 hours to build that rod then my hourly wages are $15 anhour.If I build four a month, (one a 40 hr week) the numbers are. 1000-(150/4)- 200= 763 x 4 = $3052 and (figuring 40 hrs a rod or 160hours ) $ 19.75 anhour. So the only way to really increase profit is to decrease production time. if you could build 8 rods a month (or 20 hrs a rod) 1000 - (150/8) - 200 =781.25 /20 hrs = $39 an hour. Now let's go back to that "I can make it cheeper" concept. If it takes youlonger then an hour to MAKE then anything that originally costs $39dollars willCOST you money if you make it yourself because that hour you just wastedtoreduce material cost could have been used in producing more rods. As production goes up, Make/Build becomes more important. No the other side of the coin. What happens if you slash prices in half? Doyou lose half your profit? No. You lose more then half, because materialcostsremain the same.So a $300 rod will yield (using our numbers) 300 - (150/x) -200 or lessthen$100 a rod. I've left a lot out for the sake of brevity, (for example taxes) but I hopethisshows some of the problems of mass production of Bamboo rods. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from JOMR6231@aol.com Fri Apr 23 19:40:00 1999 Subject: assistance needed I am a novice with regard to bamboo rod making although I am hording acouple of lengths of pre WWII Tonkin cane which I plan on making a couple of rods with. At present am only in the restoration of bamboo rods. This bringsme to my main question. I living in the "booneys" have very little sources for parts & supplies. I will be in Boulder, CO next week. Does anyone know where in the Boulder - Longmont area where I might be able to pick up afew ferrules and some snake guides?Any help on where to obtain catalogs of mail order outfis selling parts and supplies would be appreciated.Joe from Canerods@aol.com Fri Apr 23 20:22:53 1999 Subject: Help with rod ID? All, I've got a 3 piece rod of unknown mfg - it's a production company rod.(IMHO) No marking on the shaft - crudely refinished. Wraps on the tip are darkgreen with black tipping. The butt/mid are rewrapped with something that isalmost string dia. The grip is a rev. 1/2 Wells, the winding check has a "hex" hole for the rod shaft. The reelseat is a screw D/L (aluminium threads) and a cork spacer. The buttcap "button" is AL (botton cap too) and has been modified (I believe) to be held in place with a wood screw. I'm guessing that it's a low-end Phillipson or maybe a South Bend. No resorcinol glue-lines!! If anyone can help ID it, I'll be grateful. Don Burns The shaft of the rod doesn't have a swelled butt. The ferrules are Nickel- plated (NS?) not bottle step-down in design, with a rolled welt onthe females. There's 2 incised lines around all the ferrules. from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Apr 23 20:45:13 1999 Subject: Re: Rod making as an occupation. Terry,I do not know how you came up with those times but they are a little onthe slooooowside.Without trying to sound like a bigsey but when I was full of piss andvinegar anddead keen I could put a hand planed a rod out in 25hrs, that is includingmaking theferrules, reel seat and rod tube. OK they were not the best rods in theworld likewot you geezers make, but Codella could sell any amount of them.I said earlier that you build in batches, you break complicated tasks intosmalloperations using special purpose machines. You can rough all your cane outto yourlongest , heaviest rod and then pull them out and add your finishing taperswhenneeded in one cut.You develop a business plan and take to your regional development agency.You have aproduct and you have a market and they have the money. There is a lot ofhelp outthere for start ups and they will even pay your workers wages. But youhave toemploy people to get this help and it is not going to work with a Stanley91/2Terry Ackland "Terry L. Kirkpatrick" wrote: I've debated doing this several times but here goes anyway. We all know what it takes in material to make a bamboo rod (but I'll listitanyway). from the tip:Note these prices are off the top of my head and are for more or less topendrods. You can get some things for less. This is for a 2p rod.Bamboo $30Tip top $2Guides $15Ferrules $40Stripper $5Winding cheek $3cork grip $25Reel seat $45Glue and thread $10Rod sack and tube $25 Let's say for sake of this argument that the final price comes out to$200material. This is money that you'll never recover, no matter how manyrods youbuild. As the number of rods goes up, so does the cost of material. (Iheartwo arguments coming from the gathering. (a) I can buy in mass and (b) Icanmake my own.more on this later.) In addition to this there's costs that are going to be there if you build 1or1000 rods a month. Overhead costs, electricity, shelter, Propane,tools.This cost is a variable based on the number of rods you build, as quantitygoesup price per unit goes down. (There are breaking points. Need moreroom? Haveto rent a larger production facility. Overhead cost goes up.) So you can figure your profit P=S-(o/x)-m. Where P = profit per rod,S=saleprice. x= no of rods built, (o/x) is overhead and m= material costs. Let'ssayoverhead comes out to $150 a month. If I build one rod and sell it for $1000 1000-150-200 = 600 profit. Nowit took me 40 hours to build that rod then my hourly wages are $15 anhour.If I build four a month, (one a 40 hr week) the numbers are. 1000-(150/4)- 200= 763 x 4 = $3052 and (figuring 40 hrs a rod or 160hours ) $ 19.75 anhour. So the only way to really increase profit is to decrease production time.if you could build 8 rods a month (or 20 hrs a rod) 1000 - (150/8) - 200=781.25 /20 hrs = $39 an hour. Now let's go back to that "I can make it cheeper" concept. If it takesyoulonger then an hour to MAKE then anything that originally costs $39dollars willCOST you money if you make it yourself because that hour you justwasted toreduce material cost could have been used in producing more rods. As production goes up, Make/Build becomes more important. No the other side of the coin. What happens if you slash prices in half? Doyou lose half your profit? No. You lose more then half, because materialcostsremain the same.So a $300 rod will yield (using our numbers) 300 - (150/x) -200 or lessthen$100 a rod. I've left a lot out for the sake of brevity, (for example taxes) but I hopethisshows some of the problems of mass production of Bamboo rods. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Apr 23 21:05:18 1999 Subject: fixer upper rod Got an e-mail from a guy that purchased one of my rods as a fixerupper(almost). Did not feel to good when I first read it but as I got onreading he mentioned that the rod has been really fished hard. The lineguides had worn thin and there had been a splice in one of the tips butthe ferrule and wraps were still tight but needed a spot of varnish.When you start building rods you have no idea of how your rods willstand the test of time and when one of your early rods turn up that hasbeen fished for years it is satisfying.Terry Ackland from brookie@frii.com Fri Apr 23 21:26:28 1999 Subject: Re: assistance needed joe, I will be in Boulder, CO next week. Does anyone know where in the Boulder - Longmont area where I might beable to pick up a few ferrules and some snake guides? ahhh boulder...start with one of my home flyshops, Front Range Anglers just south ofTableMesa Dr. on Broadway. (303-494-1375) ; and if they can't help, call St.Vrain Anglers in Longmont ( 303-651-6061 ), they're on Main St. still Ithink. from jfoster@gte.net Fri Apr 23 23:10:43 1999 Subject: rod id Can anyone help this gentleman regardsJerry Bamboo Fly Rod IdDate:Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:11:00 -0700From:JIM LOWE jfoster@gte.net Mr Foster, My name is Jim Lowe. I recently acquired a Bamboo Fly rod with what appears to be William J. Foster, Flynt Michigan on it. The rod is 8'6" 2/1 with a down locking reel seat similar to someSouth Bend models and ferrules similar to Granger rods (the one'swith the triangular lip). The butt is slightly swelled and themedium to soft action of the rod throws a 4 of 5wt line. Thank you and best regards. Jim Lowe from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 24 07:17:35 1999 Subject: Re: Rod making as an occupation. Terry,I do not know how you came up with those times but they are a little onthe slooooowside.Without trying to sound like a bigsey, but when I was full of piss andvinegar anddead keen, I could put a hand planed rod out in 25hrs, that is includingmaking theferrules, reel seat and rod tube. OK they were not the best rods in theworld likewot you geezers make, but Codella could sell any amount of them.I said earlier that you build in batches, you break complicated tasksinto smalloperations using special purpose machines. You can rough all your caneout to yourlongest , heaviest rod and then pull them out and add your finishingtapers whenneeded in one cut.These types of ideas will save a good deal of time. Rods can be wrapped difficult and you are one of the gifted few that can do it. If you canget people to help you they are not going to expect the kind of rewardsthat a one man shop wants.I honestly cannot see it being that difficult to turn a $10 lump of caneinto a profit at this moment in time.You develop a business plan and take it to your regional developmentagency. If you have aproduct and you have a market they have the money. There is a lot ofhelp outthere for start ups and they will even pay your workers wages. But youhave toemploy people to get this help and it is not going to work with aStanley 91/2and a one man shopTerry Ackland "Terry L. Kirkpatrick" wrote: I've debated doing this several times but here goes anyway. We all know what it takes in material to make a bamboo rod (but I'll listitanyway). from the tip:Note these prices are off the top of my head and are for more or less topendrods. You can get some things for less. This is for a 2p rod.Bamboo $30Tip top $2Guides $15Ferrules $40Stripper $5Winding cheek $3cork grip $25Reel seat $45Glue and thread $10Rod sack and tube $25 Let's say for sake of this argument that the final price comes out to$200material. This is money that you'll never recover, no matter how manyrods youbuild. As the number of rods goes up, so does the cost of material. (Iheartwo arguments coming from the gathering. (a) I can buy in mass and (b) Icanmake my own.more on this later.) In addition to this there's costs that are going to be there if you build 1or1000 rods a month. Overhead costs, electricity, shelter, Propane,tools.This cost is a variable based on the number of rods you build, as quantitygoesup price per unit goes down. (There are breaking points. Need moreroom? Haveto rent a larger production facility. Overhead cost goes up.) So you can figure your profit P=S-(o/x)-m. Where P = profit per rod,S=saleprice. x= no of rods built, (o/x) is overhead and m= material costs. Let'ssayoverhead comes out to $150 a month. If I build one rod and sell it for $1000 1000-150-200 = 600 profit. Nowit took me 40 hours to build that rod then my hourly wages are $15 anhour.If I build four a month, (one a 40 hr week) the numbers are. 1000-(150/4)- 200= 763 x 4 = $3052 and (figuring 40 hrs a rod or 160hours ) $ 19.75 anhour. So the only way to really increase profit is to decrease production time.if you could build 8 rods a month (or 20 hrs a rod) 1000 - (150/8) - 200=781.25 /20 hrs = $39 an hour. Now let's go back to that "I can make it cheeper" concept. If it takesyoulonger then an hour to MAKE then anything that originally costs $39dollars willCOST you money if you make it yourself because that hour you justwasted toreduce material cost could have been used in producing more rods. As production goes up, Make/Build becomes more important. No the other side of the coin. What happens if you slash prices in half? Doyou lose half your profit? No. You lose more then half, because materialcostsremain the same.So a $300 rod will yield (using our numbers) 300 - (150/x) -200 or lessthen$100 a rod. I've left a lot out for the sake of brevity, (for example taxes) but I hopethisshows some of the problems of mass production of Bamboo rods. Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat Apr 24 08:46:18 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22813 for; Subject: Shipping Rods To the List,Would appreciate advice on shipping rods - like is there a preference:UPSvs US Postal vs ??. Any preferred way to package them? Is it safe to shipinonly the aluminum tube or is extra packaging needed?And how about those long one piecers, like seven feet plus? TIA. Bill from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Apr 24 09:13:53 1999 Subject: shipping rods Hi Bill,United Postal Service can ship packages up to 6 ft long. I prefer to usethem and always place the rod case inside a stout cardboard shipping tubewith some bubble wrap or peanuts to protect the rod case. If the rod caseitself is soft or if the rod is of very high value then I'd recommendputting the whole works in a plastic pipe or tube to help insure protectionagainst damage in handling.This brings to mind a 4 ft 4" Hardy A&F Banty rod I repaired for acustomerbecause it had been shipped in a soft container and somehow got crushedbreaking both the tip and butt sections. It is worth the time, effort andcost to protect a cane rod.Ray from brookie@frii.com Sat Apr 24 09:52:09 1999 Subject: Re: fixer upper rod terry wrote in part : Got an e-mail from a guy that purchased one of my rods as a fixer upper(almost). Did not feel to good when I first read it but as I got onreading he mentioned that the rod has been really fished hard. The line guides had worn thin^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...snip rest ... Okay, I'll rise to the bait (oops sorry, bad pun) ....How can a guide wear thin ? Unless the chap had small particulars ofmetalon his line that were tearing at the guide, -or- he had put the line on aautomatic machine-casting device.. I don't see this as ever happening. What kind of guides did you use for this rod that would allow wearing'thin' ? suecolorado from jczimny@dol.net Sat Apr 24 10:33:48 1999 -0400 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: fixer upper rod Lines pick up a lot abrasive particles from the water. Even chromium ( inthe 70's onthe Rockwell Scale) will wear from being subjected to this. They all wearin time.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: fixer upper rod terry wrote in part : Got an e-mail from a guy that purchased one of my rods as a fixer upper(almost). Did not feel to good when I first read it but as I got onreading he mentioned that the rod has been really fished hard. The line guides had worn thin^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ..snip rest ... Okay, I'll rise to the bait (oops sorry, bad pun) ....How can a guide wear thin ? Unless the chap had small particulars ofmetalon his line that were tearing at the guide, -or- he had put the line on aautomatic machine-casting device.. I don't see this as ever happening. What kind of guides did you use for this rod that would allow wearing'thin' ? suecolorado from jczimny@dol.net Sat Apr 24 10:33:51 1999 -0400 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: Shipping Rods I ship in plastic pipe. Two end caps screwed into the pipe.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Shipping Rods To the List,Would appreciate advice on shipping rods - like is there a preference:UPSvs US Postal vs ??. Any preferred way to package them? Is it safe to shipinonly the aluminum tube or is extra packaging needed?And how about those long one piecers, like seven feet plus? TIA. Bill from Anachemrpo@aol.com Sat Apr 24 10:58:20 1999 Subject: Re: worn guides. Was "fixer upper rod" Constant friction of line going out and coming back in. Some people fish hard and long enough to wear out guides. I had a friend, now gone, who had a 9' Leonard Duracane 9Wt SDF that hehad practically worn clear through the guides of. He fished for salmon fornearly fifty years (not with just that rod, mind you) and when he fished he fished hard.I had never seen such a thing before, or since...but few people I know have fished for salmon a long as he. Russ Lavigne from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Apr 24 11:34:59 1999 Subject: Re: fixer upper rod shooting line wears out stainless guides. If you cannot cast or use hardchromedguides this is not a problem.I came across this problem about 2 years ago when looking at a piecepropertyright on the river. I got chatting with the guy next door who was a flyfishermanand we got talking fly rods and he showed me his indestructable graphiterod. Thisold guy had been on pension for 20 years and all he does is fish, notfly changingall day like on a FF conclave. He knew his water, knew his flies andfishednowhere else.Getting back to his rod. The guy had fished this rod for 20 years andthestainless steel guides had worn thin evenly all around the inside.So there you have it Sue.I seem to remember your name from the FF list? I attended an enclave intheAdirondacks perhaps 3 years ago and I can remember a ritual where youget drunkthen open bottles of expensive malt and smoke cigars. I can remember aphotographbeing passed around the group of you but I cannot fot the life of meremember ifyou were wearing waders or had green legs?Terry SueK wrote: terry wrote in part : Got an e-mail from a guy that purchased one ofmy rods as a fixer upper(almost). Did not feelto good when I first read it but as I got onreading he mentioned that the rod has beenreally fished hard. The line guides had worn thin^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...snip rest ... Okay, I'll rise to the bait (oops sorry, bad pun) ....How can a guide wear thin ? Unless the chap had small particulars ofmetalon his line that were tearing at the guide, -or- he had put the line on aautomatic machine-casting device.. I don't see this as ever happening. What kind of guides did you use for this rod that would allow wearing'thin' ? suecolorado from jackdale@uswest.net Sat Apr 24 12:01:19 1999 (209.180.248.130) Subject: Re: Storing cane rods and bamboo rods together (sic?) Whoa, Sue. Let's not underestimate the value of a good glass rod as abrother-in-law rod for visitors. I'd bury a visitor's body in the back yard(under the graphite-staked tomatoes, of course) if they touched mybamboo rods,but I actually do want to take some of them fishing. A couple of glassrods andPflueger Medalists and away we go.Jack SueK wrote: Ray, i read and re-read that subject line a couple of times, and was thinking Ihad made a faux pas in describing something, then I just concluded thatperhaps cane makers are akin to all other artisians, a half bubble offplumb at times ( no offense meant Ray ) ? but surely not when theyplanenor glue of course ! straight and true, third star to the left .... oninto morning ( with apologies to ST and PP fans ) ... Hi Sue,Forgive me but I can't pass up this opportunity. One of the early lessonsin cane rod building is in developing loyalty to the bamboo rod and atthesame time being sensitive to the feelings of the synthetics likegraphite(they do feelings you know). A number of studies undertaken a aprestigiousUniversity have shown conclusively that graphite rods suffer from aninferiority complex if stored in the vicinity of a cane rod and becomepractically useless. Then too it is rumored (and this is still somewhatconfidential) that when exposed to high storage temperatures for abrieftime graphite suffers from polarized depolymerization and defiberalseparation. I am confident however, that you can instantly remedy thesituation by removing the graphite rods and using them in your gardenaspea poles. Well, not to be too hasty here in joining this bandwagon ofStake-The- Tomatoes-With-GLXs, but knowing a little of what you speak,Iwonder if those slate gray graphites of mine will go the way of the glassones. Sad to say that some of those aren't even in rod cases anymore !They are standing up in a corner, in the basement. Over the years, a kidor two will find them, use them as parry and thrust weapons of choiceandattempt to impale their sibling. Or at least whack them. Yes, I know of what you say Ray ... *S* suecolorado from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Apr 24 12:22:11 1999 Subject: Re: rod id try asking Leon Hanson as he is in that area and may know of thisgentleman.Bret from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Apr 24 13:23:24 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Sat, Subject: Turning grips What are the advantages, if any, to turning a grip onthe rod versus turning a grip on a mandrel and thensliding it onto the blank? Many thanks, Richard from ljrp@penn.com Sat Apr 24 13:54:38 1999 Subject: A weird thought & Microwave Has anyone experimented with trying to loosen a plastic reel seat in amicrowave oven. (After removing the metal parts of course.) Whathappened?? Did it melt the glue on the cane also? from mrj@aa.net Sat Apr 24 14:21:58 1999 Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:21:52 -0700 Subject: RE: A weird thought & Microwave I can't try that. I don't have a four and a half foot wide microwave (G)Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: A weird thought & Microwave Has anyone experimented with trying to loosen a plastic reel seat in amicrowave oven. (After removing the metal parts of course.) Whathappened?? Did it melt the glue on the cane also? from chris@artistree.com Sat Apr 24 14:30:07 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2A=A1?=" Subject: Re: Shipping Rods Looks like you received some good ideas. Might I add a couple ofsuggestions? I highly recommend that your shipping label gives absolutely no idea as toit'scontents. In other words I wouldn't use the words "Your Name Bamboo FlyRods." Another thing I learned long ago, especially with UPS, is do not mark thepackage "fragile" or "handle with care." Unfortunately these words inviteabuse --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from rsgould@cmc.net Sat Apr 24 17:36:10 1999 Subject: Turning grips Hi Richard, If the tapered hole through the center of the mandrel turned grip isexactly concentric with the cork outside diameter it'll probably be ok. Butit's better to turn the cork after it's mounted on the cane to be certainthat the cork o.d. is exactly concentric with the cane centerline. This isimportant so that the cork ends up concentric with the reel seat and corkcheck. Put a center drilled hole in the end of the cane and put a livecenter in it when it's in the lathe, then turn the cork. It's worth theextra effort.Ray from channer@hubwest.com Sat Apr 24 17:38:42 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A84D70B0088; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 16:40:13 MST Subject: Re: Turning grips At 09:36 AM 4/24/99 -0400, Richard Nantel wrote:What are the advantages, if any, to turning a grip onthe rod versus turning a grip on a mandrel and thensliding it onto the blank? Many thanks, Richard Richard;You have to glue all those rings together and to the rod anyway, you mightas well do it all at the same time. Plus you get to find out how straightyour rod is when you turn the lathe on.John from ljrp@penn.com Sat Apr 24 18:09:01 1999 Subject: Another Thought Has anyone experimented with making rod "Signatures" with theircomputer. I mean duplicating the Wright & McGill or Heddon or ?? on thecomputer and printing to clear tape to be attached to the rod ad decalsused to be attached. PS Reply to previous post ( I have an oldmicrowave and was going to make a hole in the door to insert the end ofthe rod with the reel seat on it) from jackdale@uswest.net Sat Apr 24 18:18:44 1999 (209.180.248.130) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gorgeous George Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a good working- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, could produce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford.Of course, I could do without the lip and the attitude that George seems tobeincapable of leaving out, but a less expensive production rod of areasonablequality might be as close a some folks are ever going to get to bamboo. Justa thought. Tony Young wrote: Actually Terry, all jokes aside I sort of thought you and George were>somehow in this together as your general feelings seemed very similar.I think he will succeed in his goal but I'm not sure it'll be worth itfinancialy compared to what he could do with the same money elsewhereunless his prices rise some what.My feeling is that as you've mentioned before, most people these dayshavenever cast a bamboo rod but bamboo never the less has become the sortofUltima Thule of the rod scene. I know from my own experience if you giveaguy a bamboo rod, even one that is some what fast he'll give it a bit of acast and wonder what the hell all the drama is about.A whole bunch of cheep new rods sudenly appearing on the market IMHOwillmeana whole bunch of cheep 2nd hand rods will soon follow after the initialshock of them first apearing. After this George will fill the nichelooking for this type of rod. By this "type" of rod I don't mean that thequality of the rod is in any way suspect only that it's a purelyproduction rod. I wonder just how large that market is?I truely hope for the sake of the hoby (business for some) the niche issmall because as I've mentioned before all the x-Nike factory workerswhoare used to working for $2 a day could make 4-5 rods a day. Imagine a$300Orvis bamboo rod. Tony On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tipsectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% willendup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some ofmytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb?A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from jkallo@midwest.net Sat Apr 24 18:44:54 1999 Subject: Gehrke and glue lines Hi all, I try not to waste too much time thinking about this but I just had a lookat George's web site and had a good laugh. I guess I've had it wrong so far. Instead of spending all my time trying tomake rods free of glue lines I should have hired a psychologist and workedout my problems with trying to attain perfection--it would have costmorebut probably been more effective. Check it out: http://gink.com/index.html Best,Joe from brookie@frii.com Sat Apr 24 18:55:45 1999 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a good working- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, could produce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford.Of course, I could do without the lip and the attitude that George seemsto beincapable of leaving out, but a less expensive production rod of areasonablequality might be as close a some folks are ever going to get to bamboo. Justa thought. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. This wasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who are alreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod, reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. My thought process was also, give a man/woman a reasonably priced cane, some of them will take to it like the rest of us did, never look back and become afficianadoes. The natural progression wouldprobably be to better and more cane! Not everyone can start at thetop o'the line. Also, not being on this list long, I am stepping into past historyof personalities on the List, and I'm picking up slowly that someof the members have a 'way' of harrassing, insulting or otherwiseego tripping to a fault. All listservs have this. In any business, the successful sale of the service or goods is oft times directly related to the 'sales job', to the salesman. Theymay have a potentially great product, but turn the buying publicoff by their means and methods. suecolorado from FishYarn@aol.com Sat Apr 24 20:27:26 1999 Subject: Re: Shipping Rods In a message dated 4/24/99 6:52:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fiveside@net- gate.com writes: Over X-mas I bought a rod from a guy in NC. (I live in Ca.) He was going to ship the rod as is, in a cardboard tube. I said, No...let me send you an aluminum tube. I ordered a tube from Dan Bailey and had the tube shippedto him. 3 weeks later, the box arrived SANS tube and rod. I don;t know what happened but the just under 4 foot box was split almost in half. The label from the post office read " arrived SF without contents". I called the post office dead letter section (lost and found), filled out the proper forms and two or three weeks later I picked up the rod unscratched. If I hadn't insisted on the tube, I would have had four or more pieces of fire wood. Get a tube- PVC or aluminum. Ship it inside a box. Put labels on both.Insure it. If you use UPS, send it air. Air packages are handled less than ground with UPS. Oh yeah, I've had rod blanks break in the mail from companies who insiston using cardboard boxes or those skinny cardboard tubes. Good luck. Jim LoweJivita@aol.comThe Bamboo Price Recordhttp://members.aol.com/fishyarn/pricerecord.htmlThe Pish Page http://members.aol.com/jivita/PishPage.htmlThe Berkeley Eskrima Club http://members.aol.com/EkaliArnis/BEC.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat Apr 24 20:36:05 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A1B3149D0082; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:36:51 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. One ofmyfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweat equitytorelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods that costless than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" for lessthan $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable car youpaythe extra money for it, you don't demand that they market Volvos at Yugoprices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, could produceabamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. This wasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who are alreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod, reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. from bills@nwlink.com Sat Apr 24 21:12:29 1999 Subject: Paul Young Colors boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE8E86.24E98C40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE8E86.24E98C40 Rod Makers,I am about to wrap a Paul Young Perfection (not original, I am the =maker) and would like to come close to the original colors PY used. Any =info on the colors and pattern (signature wraps and tipping) would be =appreciated. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE8E86.24E98C40 Rod Makers,I am about to wrap a Paul Young = original, I am the maker) and would like to come close to the original = used. Any info on the colors and pattern (signature wraps and tipping) = appreciated.Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE8E86.24E98C40-- from Canerods@aol.com Sat Apr 24 21:56:14 1999 Subject: Re: Shipping Rods In a message dated 4/24/99 6:52:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fiveside@net- gate.com writes: To the List,Would appreciate advice on shipping rods - like is there a preference: UPSvs US Postal vs ??. Any preferred way to package them? Is it safe toship inonly the aluminum tube or is extra packaging needed?And how about those long one piecers, like seven feet plus? TIA. Bill Bill, If you ship a rod in a shipping tube be sure to prevent the rod bouncing around inside it's normal rod tube. Plastic drain pipe is cheap and can be found at any hareware store. I like to use duct tape to seal packages - just about no way it will come undone in transit. Use cardboard or plastic capsat each end too. Remember UPS trucks/airplane cargo holds and postaltransport 18 wheelers aren't air conditioned and shipping across the S.W. deserts in the summer can melt lead, IMHO. A good time for overnight shipping!! I used to like UPS, but they have raised their rated a whole bunch. The best thing about UPS is the package tracking system. You can access it on theweb and check the status of any of their packages all by yourself. Give the package # to the customer and they can track it too. UPS doesn't deliver on weekends and I so try to ship so that a package doesn't sit around some warehouse for a weekend -- IE ship on mondays, not thursdays/fridays.UPS can't deliver to P.O. boxs - you must have a street address. I've started using US Priority Mail and 99% of the time it is reliable. However, the 2 or 3 day delivery "promise" is only a marketing ploy - the P.O. doesn't consider any Priority Mail package lost until after 30 days.Ask me how I know! You don't get a fast fix for the time things do go arwy. Tracking is not automated and I feel you need to ship with lots ofinsurance to be safe. I hear collecting on their insurance takes forever too. They now have a new system that allows you to assign a package tracking# to uninsured package that costs $0.35 extra. (I think) This is nice for low- buck parts swaps (etc) that you don't value highly, yet would like to get back if they get lost. international Priority Mail envelopes that can hold a lot of rod parts. If the package weight is less than 2 lbs. (~1 Kg) the P.O. doesn't even require a customs form. Just how much duty would 2 lbs. of undeclared agateguides be worth?? I also like to make sure that I get a signature no matter how I ship for the prevention of "the rod never arrived" nasty-type people that MIGHT existout there - the ones that would claim not to have received a package left inthe mailbox or by the front door. Don Burns from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Sat Apr 24 21:59:17 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA32538 for; Sun, 25 Apr 199902:59:13 GMT Subject: Which 4 wt I am gearing up to build Cattanach's 6'6" DT#4, 2 piece, pg 223 in hisbook. I originally read a couple of posts in the archives about itthat's why I selected it. While setting final forms tonight & whilegoing to the book to checking my settings, notice a 6'3" DT# 4 on page221. My question is has anybody build one or the other of these (can'tfind the original references in the archives), opinions? (I know that isa stretch). I prefer a fast rod , I'll try the Hexrod Net thing latertonight to see what I come up with. Tryed downloading the Hexrod file &Microsoft Works didn't like it & I haven't bothered trying to figure itout why.CheersCraig from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Sat Apr 24 22:06:05 1999 Subject: Re[2]: Shipping Rods boundary="=PMail:=_0000@@vxP9dnGcAeoJDSE67Ai7" --=PMail:=_0000@@vxP9dnGcAeoJDSE67Ai7 I usually send rods with 38" sections or less in a Post Office suppliedtriangular box and the rod inside a PVC tube or the aluminum tube. Ialways= get the insurance. Ship it Priority Mail. = If it's longer than 38" then either a longer box that I find or else abeefy 2-3" pvc tube over the aluminum tube, never ship the aluminum tubeas the container as it is guaranteed to have dents in it after shipment. Darrell --=PMail:=_0000@@vxP9dnGcAeoJDSE67Ai7-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Apr 24 23:13:23 1999 Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:12:37 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Shipping Rods Bill,I do a fair bit of shipping around the place and the best packaging by farthat I've used is white PVC piping used for plumbing. It's cheap to buy, you can cut it to exact size, dosn't brake and bends less than a bamboorod will. Also you can get fittings for the ends that just glue on with plumbing glue made for the job. I tend to glue both ends and draw a linearound one of the end fittings indicating where to hacksaw to open sothere can be no possibility of tampering en route. It weighs a bit morethan an Al tube but it still seems better IMHO.Can't help with the different transport methods though. Tony On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Bill Fink wrote: To the List,Would appreciate advice on shipping rods - like is there a preference:UPSvs US Postal vs ??. Any preferred way to package them? Is it safe toship inonly the aluminum tube or is extra packaging needed?And how about those long one piecers, like seven feet plus? TIA. Bill /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Apr 24 23:21:15 1999 Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:20:33 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gorgeous George Point taken but what about 2nd hand rods? Also there are a few peoplearound making rods for about the price of the better graphite rods. Tony On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Jack Dale wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a good working- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, could produceabamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford.Of course, I could do without the lip and the attitude that George seemsto beincapable of leaving out, but a less expensive production rod of areasonablequality might be as close a some folks are ever going to get to bamboo. Justa thought. Tony Young wrote: Actually Terry, all jokes aside I sort of thought you and George weresomehow in this together as your general feelings seemed very similar.I think he will succeed in his goal but I'm not sure it'll be worth itfinancialy compared to what he could do with the same moneyelsewhereunless his prices rise some what.My feeling is that as you've mentioned before, most people these dayshavenever cast a bamboo rod but bamboo never the less has become the sortofUltima Thule of the rod scene. I know from my own experience if yougive aguy a bamboo rod, even one that is some what fast he'll give it a bit ofacast and wonder what the hell all the drama is about.A whole bunch of cheep new rods sudenly appearing on the market IMHOwillmeana whole bunch of cheep 2nd hand rods will soon follow after the initialshock of them first apearing. After this George will fill the nichelooking for this type of rod. By this "type" of rod I don't mean that thequality of the rod is in any way suspect only that it's a purelyproduction rod. I wonder just how large that market is?I truely hope for the sake of the hoby (business for some) the niche issmall because as I've mentioned before all the x-Nike factory workerswhoare used to working for $2 a day could make 4-5 rods a day. Imagine a$300Orvis bamboo rod. Tony On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tipsectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% willendup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some ofmytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb?A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from cbogart@shentel.net Sun Apr 25 08:12:45 1999 Subject: Re: Which 4 wt Craig Of the two tapers the 6'3" is the much more popular - it isessentiallythe Paul Young Midge taper - literally hundreds of guys have built it. But,it alldepends on what and where you will be fishing with it. Target your rods chris On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:57:38 -0600, Craig Naldrett wrote: I am gearing up to build Cattanach's 6'6" DT#4, 2 piece, pg 223 in hisbook. I originally read a couple of posts in the archives about itthat's why I selected it. While setting final forms tonight & whilegoing to the book to checking my settings, notice a 6'3" DT# 4 on page221. My question is has anybody build one or the other of these (can'tfind the original references in the archives), opinions? (I know that isa stretch). I prefer a fast rod , I'll try the Hexrod Net thing latertonight to see what I come up with. Tryed downloading the Hexrod file &Microsoft Works didn't like it & I haven't bothered trying to figure itout why.CheersCraig from brookie@frii.com Sun Apr 25 08:34:45 1999 Subject: 2d hand cane Two ( and I suspect ) more will say this below. And again, the lightbulbwent on in the dimly lit room for me !! Tony said : Point taken but what about 2nd hand rods? Also there are a few people around making rods for about the price ofthe better graphite rods. Reed said : I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. One of my favorite rods cost me $17 in anantique shop, and then some sweat equity to relaminatesome sections. I have many old, famous maker rods thatcost less than $200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots offine "Handyman Specials" for less than $100. And I'll agree, I don't know why I think all cane IS expensive. I standcorrected. There is no reason I can't head out with reel/line in hand andvisit some of these antique stores, or soon with the weather improving,garage sales. Try out some used cane ! What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed Nah, just meant one fixed paycheck income and specific routine outflow. Iwas whining. *S* suecoloradoWhere it IS snowing ! from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Apr 25 09:04:25 1999 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George I do not think there will ever be 'cheap production' cane rods when thereare farcheaper materials available with a better performance for the average nonserioustrout angler.What uncle george should be concentrating on is making cane rods moregenerallyavailable and thiscan be accomplished by using techniques that were used rodmaking industry of the past.There are more "rodmakers" now probably than when cane was the onlyrodmakingmaterial, yet there are not many rods being produced at all because themethodsbeing used are hobby methods.The buying public are prepared to pay for their pastimes and the cost ofequipmentis not really important. Take for instance the mountain bike craze and thecostinvolved in purchasing a half decent one. They are being sold because theyarebeing built and if they were not being built ....well, that is the problemwithcane rods.George has put his foot in his mouth by promising to make cheap rodsrather thanpromising to just make good rods available.I think a good quality cane rod that can be purchased 'off the shelf ' from aspecialty fly fishing store with a retail price of $750- $800us wouldwork.T.Ackland Jack Dale wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a good working- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, could produceabamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford.Of course, I could do without the lip and the attitude that George seemsto beincapable of leaving out, but a less expensive production rod of areasonablequality might be as close a some folks are ever going to get to bamboo. Justa thought. Tony Young wrote: Actually Terry, all jokes aside I sort of thought you and George weresomehow in this together as your general feelings seemed very similar.I think he will succeed in his goal but I'm not sure it'll be worth itfinancialy compared to what he could do with the same moneyelsewhereunless his prices rise some what.My feeling is that as you've mentioned before, most people these dayshavenever cast a bamboo rod but bamboo never the less has become the sortofUltima Thule of the rod scene. I know from my own experience if yougive aguy a bamboo rod, even one that is some what fast he'll give it a bit ofacast and wonder what the hell all the drama is about.A whole bunch of cheep new rods sudenly appearing on the market IMHOwillmeana whole bunch of cheep 2nd hand rods will soon follow after the initialshock of them first apearing. After this George will fill the nichelooking for this type of rod. By this "type" of rod I don't mean that thequality of the rod is in any way suspect only that it's a purelyproduction rod. I wonder just how large that market is?I truely hope for the sake of the hoby (business for some) the niche issmall because as I've mentioned before all the x-Nike factory workerswhoare used to working for $2 a day could make 4-5 rods a day. Imagine a$300Orvis bamboo rod. Tony On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I have just taken a look at G. Gehrke web page, really impressive. Idecided to find it after looking at all the nasty snipes I read in therodmakers archives.I found him very honest, he admits to having problems with tipsectionson the beveller he is using, plus all the other trials and tribulationsthat are part of rodmaking.I am not sure of a $330 rod though, especially looking at a guy sittingwith a very small gas torch flaming a lump of cane of which 90% willendup as shavings.I think the guy is really a breath of fresh air, he is at least givingit a good go and putting his money where his mouth is.I have just contacted him asking him if would like to look at some ofmytip splines milled on my machine. I will send him also a 4 ft longspline milled at .032 the whole length. Should give him something tothink about.I only wish I had half his enthusiasm and I hope he does succeed, T.Ackland /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb?A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from destinycon@mindspring.com Sun Apr 25 09:18:35 1999 Subject: Re: Another Thought At 07:08 PM 4/24/99 -0400, Dick Fogel wrote:( I have an oldmicrowave and was going to make a hole in the door to insert the end ofthe rod with the reel seat on it) Dick,You might want to rethink that idea. I'm by no means a microwaveexpertbut it sure seems like trouble in the making. In the past I've usedboiling water and with a little care they will usaly come off.Gary H. from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Apr 25 10:42:54 1999 Subject: Re: Shipping Rods Bill,I ship all my rods and blanks, as well as all my otherorders by Priority Mail. I find it is faster, cheaper and havenever had a rod damaged in shipment. I can't say that forUPS. I had a few blanks damaged when sent by UPS. Iship them in a very solid cardboard tube. When I ship blanks,I tape them to a piece of 1 x 2 in. piece of wood, just foradded insurance against the tube being bent. I've had goodluck with Priority Mail. Dave LeClair from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Apr 25 11:02:34 1999 (209.180.248.130) Subject: Re: Gorgeous George This is not an either/or issue. There is room in the market place for manydifferentlevels of price-vs.-quality and there are many different ways to acquirethe rods youwant. I have horsetraded for some of my rods and bought others. Somewere incrediblycheap, some were embarrassingly expensive. It's not that cane rods arenecessarilyexpensive, it's just that a rod maker who takes the time required to makeahigh-quality hand-made rod should be paid an amount commensurate withthat time andquality. However, it would also be nice if there were an alternative, inexpensiveprice- point-of-entry for the blue-collar stiff who'd like to have a chanceto connectwith fly fishing tradition by fishing bamboo. Hell, the guy might even likeit anddecide that the way to upgrade from the production rod without having tosell out andput on a tie is to find a really great rod maker before the rest of the worlddiscovers him drives his prices out of reach. Reed Curry wrote: Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. One ofmyfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweatequity torelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods that costless than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" for lessthan $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable caryou paythe extra money for it, you don't demand that they market Volvos at Yugoprices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, couldproduce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. This wasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who are alreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod, reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Apr 25 11:04:21 1999 Subject: Re: A weird thought & Microwave Microwaves cook food by agitating the water molecules in the food at themicrowave frequency.If there is no water there is no heat generated.T.Ackland Dick Fogel wrote: Has anyone experimented with trying to loosen a plastic reel seat in amicrowave oven. (After removing the metal parts of course.) Whathappened?? Did it melt the glue on the cane also? from rsgould@cmc.net Sun Apr 25 11:44:48 1999 Subject: Microwave I have this habit of saving some short pieces off the ends of bamboo rodspreviously built, so I thought I'd run a microwave test to see if the canegot hot. Lo and behold after two minutes on"high" the 4" long piece wasquite warm, almost hot, when removed from the micro. It got hot probably there are still some materials in the cane that act like oils which alsoget hot in a micro. There is a problem however, how do I explain this rationally to my spousewho observed this weird phenomenon and thinks some of us rod buildersaretwo sandwiches short of a picnic.Ray from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 25 11:51:22 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A83C8C9002A; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:52:12 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Terry,I hate it when I have to say these words, but, gulp, "You are right."With A.J. producing good rods which retail at $650, and some of the highendgraphite shops producing rods to retail at $675+; I think we have met the"enemy"head-on. Unfortunately, one of the myths of cane is that it is expensive...beyond thereach of ordinary mortals. No-one would consider an attractively pricedcane rod as aninstrument of quality.Humans are some of the funniest people I know.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I do not think there will ever be 'cheap production' cane rods when thereare farcheaper materials available with a better performance for the averagenon serioustrout angler.What uncle george should be concentrating on is making cane rods moregenerallyavailable and thiscan be accomplished by using techniques that wereused by therodmaking industry of the past.There are more "rodmakers" now probably than when cane was the onlyrodmakingmaterial, yet there are not many rods being produced at all because themethodsbeing used are hobby methods.The buying public are prepared to pay for their pastimes and the cost ofequipmentis not really important. Take for instance the mountain bike craze andthe costinvolved in purchasing a half decent one. They are being sold becausethey arebeing built and if they were not being built ....well, that is the problemwithcane rods.George has put his foot in his mouth by promising to make cheap rodsrather thanpromising to just make good rods available.I think a good quality cane rod that can be purchased 'off the shelf ' fromaspecialty fly fishing store with a retail price of $750- $800us wouldwork.T.Ackland from SalarFly@aol.com Sun Apr 25 12:01:25 1999 Subject: Flamed Blonde Rods Another one of my experiments that seems to have worked. I like the action of flamed rods. They are stiffer, faster, and dampout the little oscillations that occur at the stop of a forward cast.But, some people like blonde rods. To them the color is the definingcharacteristic of a cane rod. If you flame only the pith side of a culm split in half lengthwise youcan get the characteristics of a flamed rod, but the color of theenamel side remains light. Prepare your culm as you usually do. I file the nodes on the outside to flatten them. Then I use a half round chisel to cut out the internaldams, all the way until they are flat. The amount to flame the internal pith side is one of those thingsyou have to develop a feel for, but here are some general guidelines.Flame more than you would think you have to. You need to get theheat all the way through to the power fibers on the enamel side.The pith blackens and turns into an insulating layer, that actually glows red where the torch is hitting it. I start at one end and work my way to the other end, pointing the torch at about a 30 degree angle towards the unflamed protion of the culm. When you find the correct angle the flame from the torch swirls around and fills the culm from side to side. I feel this gives the most even heat distribution. Work your way slowly down the entire length of the culm, and you can evengo over it again with no ill effects. Give the nodes a little more timeunder the torch, they seem to retain a tendency to take a set in thefinished blank. Unless the culm has been seasoned for many years you will probably notice some steam and liquid coming out from the end grain when you get to the end.Wire brush the carbonized pith out to keep your hands clean whenyou start working with the bamboo. The resulting culm has the desirable characteristics of flamed bamboobut remains as light as any blonde rod I have seen. Darryl from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 25 12:01:39 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AAA6F8A012A; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 13:02:30 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Jack,If the price-vs-quality issue is met by using less expensive fittings onany of theblanks that showed cosmetic problems (e.g., watermarks) we could havegreat castinginstruments and some with low prices. Both Bristol (under the Edwards)and F.E. Thomasused this approach.The scenario you seem to be describing is that employed by firms suchas Montague.They beefed up all their tapers to compensate for low quality cane. Not agood idea,IMHO. Best regards,Reed Jack Dale wrote: This is not an either/or issue. There is room in the market place formany differentlevels of price-vs.-quality and there are many different ways to acquirethe rods youwant. I have horsetraded for some of my rods and bought others. Somewere incrediblycheap, some were embarrassingly expensive. It's not that cane rods arenecessarilyexpensive, it's just that a rod maker who takes the time required tomake ahigh-quality hand-made rod should be paid an amount commensurate withthat time andquality. However, it would also be nice if there were an alternative, inexpensiveprice- point-of-entry for the blue-collar stiff who'd like to have achance to connectwith fly fishing tradition by fishing bamboo. Hell, the guy might evenlike it anddecide that the way to upgrade from the production rod without having tosell out andput on a tie is to find a really great rod maker before the rest of theworlddiscovers him drives his prices out of reach. two. Reed Curry wrote: Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. Oneof myfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweatequity torelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods thatcost less than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" for lessthan $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable caryou paythe extra money for it, you don't demand that they market Volvos atYugo prices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, couldproduce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working man couldafford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. This wasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who arealreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod, reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. from jackdale@uswest.net Sun Apr 25 12:14:28 1999 (209.180.248.130) Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Montague bad. Bristol and F. E. Thomas good. The key concept here is"reasonablequality ina production rod at a reasonable price." If it can be done, I think that's agoodthing. Abad fly rod is a very bad idea under any circumstances. Period! In thatsense, I agreewholeheartedly with you. Reed Curry wrote: Jack,If the price-vs-quality issue is met by using less expensive fittingson any oftheblanks that showed cosmetic problems (e.g., watermarks) we could havegreat castinginstruments and some with low prices. Both Bristol (under the Edwards)and F.E. Thomasused this approach.The scenario you seem to be describing is that employed by firms suchas Montague.They beefed up all their tapers to compensate for low quality cane. Not agood idea,IMHO. Best regards,Reed Jack Dale wrote: This is not an either/or issue. There is room in the market place formanydifferentlevels of price-vs.-quality and there are many different ways toacquire the rodsyouwant. I have horsetraded for some of my rods and bought others. Somewereincrediblycheap, some were embarrassingly expensive. It's not that cane rods arenecessarilyexpensive, it's just that a rod maker who takes the time required tomake ahigh-quality hand-made rod should be paid an amount commensuratewith that time andquality. However, it would also be nice if there were an alternative,inexpensiveprice- point-of-entry for the blue-collar stiff who'd like to have achance toconnectwith fly fishing tradition by fishing bamboo. Hell, the guy might evenlike it anddecide that the way to upgrade from the production rod without havingto sell outandput on a tie is to find a really great rod maker before the rest of theworlddiscovers him drives his prices out of reach. two. Reed Curry wrote: Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. Oneof myfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweatequity torelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods thatcost less than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" forless than $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable caryou paythe extra money for it, you don't demand that they market Volvos atYugo prices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, couldproduce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working mancould afford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. Thiswasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who arealreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod,reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Apr 25 13:07:12 1999 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Reed,A.J. has no trouble selling his rods, Codella can probably sell as many ashe can make.Before I took time of from building to concentrate on equipment, Codellasaid he wouldsell 10 of my rods before he sold a 1K+ rod! There is also the advantage ofhaving aretailer that is considered an expert endorsing your product, it does takeit out of theKmart bracket.Most of the high prices being charged today are based on what thebuilders think theyare worth. I have checked out some of the builders web sites with jpegsof their rodsandI cannot see them being worth almost twice as much as a recognizedquality builder likeA.J.I do not think we have to worry too much about A.J and his realisticallypriced qualityrods. He certainly does not have time to waste on this list! He has probablygot hisbeveller really humming and is knocking out the poles while the restdream on.Remember it was T&T with their tarted up offerings that started the overthe top valueofcane rods and it has since been picked up by most of todays builders.Terry Reed Curry wrote: Terry,I hate it when I have to say these words, but, gulp, "You are right."With A.J. producing good rods which retail at $650, and some of thehigh endgraphite shops producing rods to retail at $675+; I think we have met the"enemy"head-on. Unfortunately, one of the myths of cane is that it is expensive...beyond thereach of ordinary mortals. No-one would consider an attractively pricedcane rod as aninstrument of quality.Humans are some of the funniest people I know.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I do not think there will ever be 'cheap production' cane rods whenthere are farcheaper materials available with a better performance for the averagenon serioustrout angler.What uncle george should be concentrating on is making cane rods moregenerallyavailable and thiscan be accomplished by using techniques that wereused by therodmaking industry of the past.There are more "rodmakers" now probably than when cane was the onlyrodmakingmaterial, yet there are not many rods being produced at all because themethodsbeing used are hobby methods.The buying public are prepared to pay for their pastimes and the cost ofequipmentis not really important. Take for instance the mountain bike craze andthe costinvolved in purchasing a half decent one. They are being sold becausethey arebeing built and if they were not being built ....well, that is the problemwithcane rods.George has put his foot in his mouth by promising to make cheap rodsrather thanpromising to just make good rods available.I think a good quality cane rod that can be purchased 'off the shelf ' from aspecialty fly fishing store with a retail price of $750- $800us wouldwork.T.Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Apr 25 13:18:17 1999 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Reed,was not the flaming technique devised by Paul Young to hide the marks onwhat they hadleft oftheir cane during the embargo? Flaming now is is regarded by some as themark of a goodrod!You are right, "There's nothing as queer as folk" (Full Monty)Terry Reed Curry wrote: Jack,If the price-vs-quality issue is met by using less expensive fittingson any oftheblanks that showed cosmetic problems (e.g., watermarks) we could havegreat castinginstruments and some with low prices. Both Bristol (under the Edwards)and F.E. Thomasused this approach.The scenario you seem to be describing is that employed by firms suchas Montague.They beefed up all their tapers to compensate for low quality cane. Not agood idea,IMHO. Best regards,Reed Jack Dale wrote: This is not an either/or issue. There is room in the market place formanydifferentlevels of price-vs.-quality and there are many different ways toacquire the rodsyouwant. I have horsetraded for some of my rods and bought others. Somewereincrediblycheap, some were embarrassingly expensive. It's not that cane rods arenecessarilyexpensive, it's just that a rod maker who takes the time required tomake ahigh-quality hand-made rod should be paid an amount commensuratewith that time andquality. However, it would also be nice if there were an alternative,inexpensiveprice- point-of-entry for the blue-collar stiff who'd like to have achance toconnectwith fly fishing tradition by fishing bamboo. Hell, the guy might evenlike it anddecide that the way to upgrade from the production rod without havingto sell outandput on a tie is to find a really great rod maker before the rest of theworlddiscovers him drives his prices out of reach. two. Reed Curry wrote: Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. Oneof myfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweatequity torelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods thatcost less than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" forless than $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable caryou pay> > > the extra money for it, you don't demand that they marketVolvos at Yugo prices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, couldproduce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working mancould afford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. Thiswasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who arealreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod,reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. from fiveside@net-gate.com Sun Apr 25 14:27:01 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29253 for; Subject: Re: Shipping Rods To the ListTo all, thanks a million for the help. I surely should be able to stay outof trouble now. This list is great. Thanks again. Bill from mrj@aa.net Sun Apr 25 14:30:55 1999 Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:30:40 -0700 Subject: RE: Another Thought You do something like that you better have a remote device to turn it onwith from another room. The microwaves need to be contained otherwisetheymight cook whatever they fall upon.Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Another Thought . PS Reply to previous post ( I have an oldmicrowave and was going to make a hole in the door to insert the end ofthe rod with the reel seat on it) from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Sun Apr 25 16:15:08 1999 us.dialup.earthlink.net Subject: Recycling Split Cane Rods... boundary="=PMail:=_0001@@na4HZKFzBsUfxkCj9oIj" --=PMail:=_0001@@na4HZKFzBsUfxkCj9oIj I've heard some guys are buying up junk/damaged rods, separating the 6strips from the mid and butt sections from 3 piece rods and planing theminto new 2 piece rods of their own tapers... Has anyone tried this? Darrell L. --=PMail:=_0001@@na4HZKFzBsUfxkCj9oIj-- from MasjC1@aol.com Sun Apr 25 18:00:47 1999 Subject: Re: Which 4 wt Craig, I can't recommend either one yet. I'm in the process of building a modified version of the 6'3" 4wt 2 pc. Wayne has modified it to have a similarstress graph to the Sir Darryl Favorite. Today I have planed the butt sections and the tips to the butt dimension. I will plane the tips to final this week and glue up by next weekend -- I hope. Mark from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 25 18:06:27 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A024151A0102; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:07:16 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Jack,Maybe I misspoke. I have one very nice Montague. A custom job, and verywell made.But thebasic approach to building was ... bad.Best regards,Reed Jack Dale wrote: Montague bad. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 25 18:09:21 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0D5131D009E; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:10:13 EDT Subject: Re: Recycling Split Cane Rods... Darrell,I know one maker with a beveler who bought most of Uslan's cane andretapered the 5 strips to 6 strip. Its called recycling, now. Of course, thecane quality was good.Best regards,Reed Darrell Lee wrote: I've heard some guys are buying up junk/damaged rods, separating the 6strips from the mid and butt sections from 3 piece rods and planing theminto new 2 piece rods of their own tapers... Has anyone tried this? Darrell L. from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Apr 25 18:13:28 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A1CC14C00154; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:14:20 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Terry,The first use of flaming of which I am aware ( from reading) was done rodmakers around1915 when they wanted to move from Calcutta cane to the less wastefulTonkin. Theyrandomly flamedthe cane to imitate the burn marks usually found on Calcutta. Ain't lifegrand?Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Reed,was not the flaming technique devised by Paul Young to hide the markson what they hadleft oftheir cane during the embargo? Flaming now is is regarded by some asthe mark of agood rod!You are right, "There's nothing as queer as folk" (Full Monty)Terry from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sun Apr 25 20:12:58 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id KAA23901; Mon, 26Apr 1999 10:12:54+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id KAA15406;Mon, 26 Apr1999 10:12:52 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Flamed Blonde Rods SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Another one of my experiments that seems to have worked. I like the action of flamed rods. They are stiffer, faster, and dampout the little oscillations that occur at the stop of a forward cast.But, some people like blonde rods. To them the color is the definingcharacteristic of a cane rod. If you flame only the pith side of a culm split in half lengthwise youcan get the characteristics of a flamed rod, but the color of theenamel side remains light. Prepare your culm as you usually do. I file the nodes on the outsideto flatten them. Then I use a half round chisel to cut out the internaldams, all the way until they are flat. The amount to flame the internal pith side is one of those thingsyou have to develop a feel for, but here are some general guidelines.Flame more than you would think you have to. You need to get theheat all the way through to the power fibers on the enamel side.The pith blackens and turns into an insulating layer, that actuallyglows red where the torch is hitting it. I start at one end and workmy way to the other end, pointing the torch at about a 30 degreeangle towards the unflamed protion of the culm. When you find thecorrect angle the flame from the torch swirls around and fills the culm from side to side. I feel this gives the most even heat distribution. Workyour way slowly down the entire length of the culm, and you can evengo over it again with no ill effects. Give the nodes a little more timeunder the torch, they seem to retain a tendency to take a set in thefinished blank. Unless the culm has been seasoned for many yearsyou will probably notice some steam and liquid coming out from theend grain when you get to the end.Wire brush the carbonized pith out to keep your hands clean whenyou start working with the bamboo. The resulting culm has the desirable characteristics of flamed bamboobut remains as light as any blonde rod I have seen. Darryl Darryl, I appreciate your post on this experience.We, my colleagues and I are considering how to utilize Japanese bamboospecies to fly rod, most of which have weaker power fibers.Your method for flaming backside would give us one of opportunities toharden our species.You have really valuable experiences. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from sats@gte.net Sun Apr 25 20:27:38 1999 ; id UAA13424 Subject: Re: A weird thought & Microwave Microwaves cook food by agitating the water molecules in the food at themicrowave frequency.If there is no water there is no heat generated.T.AcklandUnless, you have something else that react to Microwaves. Such as metal.Then you no only get heat, you get light. Plenty of it... Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from jaquin@netsync.net Sun Apr 25 22:15:32 1999 Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Reed Curry wrote: Jack,If the price-vs-quality issue is met by using less expensive fittingson any oftheblanks that showed cosmetic problems (e.g., watermarks) we could havegreat castinginstruments and some with low prices. Both Bristol (under the Edwards)and F.E. Thomasused this approach.The scenario you seem to be describing is that employed by firms suchas Montague.They beefed up all their tapers to compensate for low quality cane. Not agood idea,IMHO. Best regards,Reed Jack Dale wrote: This is not an either/or issue. There is room in the market place formanydifferentlevels of price-vs.-quality and there are many different ways toacquire the rodsyouwant. I have horsetraded for some of my rods and bought others. Somewereincrediblycheap, some were embarrassingly expensive. It's not that cane rods arenecessarilyexpensive, it's just that a rod maker who takes the time required tomake ahigh-quality hand-made rod should be paid an amount commensuratewith that time andquality. However, it would also be nice if there were an alternative,inexpensiveprice- point-of-entry for the blue-collar stiff who'd like to have achance toconnectwith fly fishing tradition by fishing bamboo. Hell, the guy might evenlike it anddecide that the way to upgrade from the production rod without havingto sell outandput on a tie is to find a really great rod maker before the rest of theworlddiscovers him drives his prices out of reach. two. Reed Curry wrote: Sue,I don't know why you think cane rods are necessarily expensive. Oneof myfavorite rods cost me $17 in an antique shop, and then some sweatequity torelaminate some sections. I have many old, famous maker rods thatcost less than$200 each. Bob Corsetti sells lots of fine "Handyman Specials" forless than $100. My reels usually cost me less then $40 (you can't go wrong with a1940'svintage Pflueger).Let's suppose cane rods are expensive. If you want a dependable caryou paythe extra money for it, you don't demand that they market Volvos atYugo prices.What is not a "fixed income"? Lottery winnings?Best regards,Reed SueK wrote: Part of the bamboo rod mystique is the blue-collar spin (a goodworking- man'srod). It would be interesting if someone, Gehrke included, couldproduce abamboo fly rod of reasonable quality at a price a working mancould afford. Excellent points! and dittos from this corner of the world. Thiswasa point I was trying to make in my couple of posts on this subject. Iwould maintain there are many of us on fixed incomes who arealreadyhaving trouble explaining to other family members why the rod,reel,waders, line costs SO MUCH !!! and to add to the collection is onlyadding fuel to the fire. hi reed, i don't think we need to go down the road again on what itcosts in components to built a rod, but the price spread between thebest components and the low-end components can't be much more than ahundred bucks. does that mean if your selling rods for $1500 and youfind a blemish on it, you're going to use low-end components and sell it hardware only worth $600, but marketed at $1500? are we really not hearing terry? the cost is in the labor, if you'regoing to market alot of $800 rods, you've got to get the labor out ofthe rods using technology and good manufacturing techniques. Lon B., at Roscoe, said he could go from raw strips of cane to finalplaned strips in two hours using his hand planer techniques. if this istrue, and $50.00 per hour shop cost, which included labor, overhead,general and administrative cost plus profit, he would have to finish allthe other operations in building a rod in twelve hours, assuming $100in materials. $100.00 material, 2 hrs@$50.00 = $100.00 to plane cane,12 hrs @ $50.00 = $600.00 to finish the rod. Total $800.00 it may be possible? from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 26 07:00:54 1999 Subject: Re: A weird thought & Microwave Terry,metal shields the passageof microwaves. You can cover portions of foodwithaluminum foil to prevent cooking. There is a metal fan in microwave ovenspositioned where the microwaves enter the cooking area. The waves hitthemetal fan and are deflected randomly into the oven for even coverage.It is the metalized coatings on containers that have problems inmicrowavesand I do not know why this is .Terry "Terry L. Kirkpatrick" wrote: Microwaves cook food by agitating the water molecules in the food atthemicrowave frequency.If there is no water there is no heat generated.T.AcklandUnless, you have something else that react to Microwaves. Such asmetal.Then you no only get heat, you get light. Plenty of it... Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Apr 26 07:58:07 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A3152E250130; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:59:01 EDT Subject: Re: Gorgeous George Jerry,I think I am hearing, and (gasp!) agreeing with Terry. Reducing the laborbyimprovingproduction processes will provide a less expensive rod to market, but stillmaintainquality.Jim Payne expected "one rod, per man, per day", but I doubt he counted thewomen doingthewinding and varnishing in the back room. If, like Leonard, Thomas, andPayne, you createassembly lines with different pay grades according to skill, you canminimize labourcosts andstill maintain quality. [Of course, first we would need to get over thisphobia aboutusing cane from different culms.]The rods that Payne might have discarded because of offcolour cane orblemishes,Thomas putprogressively cheaper fittings on and sold under different model names atlower prices.Most ofthe intensive labour had already been done. He could heavily discount thesebecause theywereotherwise discards (call it recycling). He didn't even put his company nameon the"Bangor"model.That is the way to get levels of quality, but still excellent fishing rods.Best regards,Reed Jerry Quinn wrote: hi reed, i don't think we need to go down the road again on what itcosts in components to built a rod, but the price spread between thebest components and the low-end components can't be much more than ahundred bucks. does that mean if your selling rods for $1500 and youfind a blemish on it, you're going to use low-end components and sell it hardware only worth $600, but marketed at $1500? are we really not hearing terry? the cost is in the labor, if you'regoing to market alot of $800 rods, you've got to get the labor out ofthe rods using technology and good manufacturing techniques. Lon B., at Roscoe, said he could go from raw strips of cane to finalplaned strips in two hours using his hand planer techniques. if this istrue, and $50.00 per hour shop cost, which included labor, overhead,general and administrative cost plus profit, he would have to finish allthe other operations in building a rod in twelve hours, assuming $100in materials. $100.00 material, 2 hrs@$50.00 = $100.00 to plane cane,12 hrs @ $50.00 = $600.00 to finish the rod. Total $800.00 it may be possible? from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Apr 26 08:56:25 1999 out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA35672 for; Mon,26 Apr 1999 13:56:09 GMT Subject: Re:Which 4 wt Thanks for input, opinions etc. on which Cattanach 4 wt taper to try.Consensus seems to be 6'3", I'll try the one from his book first & latermaybe the one he modified from a 7'taper that Harry Boyd sent me. Bret &Mark I'm still interested in opions/results of the 4 wt's you'rebuilding now.Thanks For InputCraig from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Apr 26 09:17:26 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Re: Flamed Blonde Rods Max, Darryl, and list -- You've started me thinking.... I just finished my first reading of RayGould's book (lots of fun, by the way). Ray seems to place a good deal ofemphasis on using ammonium carbonate to not only color strips, but alsohardenthem through the carbon produced in heating the strips with ammoniumcarbonate.Since bamboo is the least expensive part of a rod, I'm not interested inaway to get good strips out of bad. My question is this: Does the ammoniatreatment do more than color the strips? Does it have some actualbenefits asfar as the properties of the cane, beyond heat treating alone? Ray (are youlistening?) seems to use fair research techniques for many of his claims. Hasanyone done testing on ammonia treated vs. heat treated vs. flamed vs.blondevs. whatever else? Seems like in the past I've heard that all ammoniadoes isgive a rich color.I'm just curious. Probably will not use ammonia no matter whatanswers Iget. I don't think the owners of the convection oven I use for heat treatingwould appreciate it!Harry Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Another one of my experiments that seems to have worked. Darryl, Your method for flaming backside would give us one of opportunities toharden our species.You have really valuable experiences. Max from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 26 09:23:05 1999 Subject: Re: Gehrke and glue lines I find uncle george's ongoing web saga very entertaining and exciting. Itreminds me the Saturday matinees I attended as a kid where Superman gotintoall sorts of trouble and left you suspended until the following week.I cannot wait to click on George's site to find out how he has extrecatedhimself from another mess.Will he? Wont he? I hope so. I cannot wait for the next episode.Terry "Joseph S.Kallo" wrote: Hi all, I try not to waste too much time thinking about this but I just had a lookat George's web site and had a good laugh. I guess I've had it wrong so far. Instead of spending all my time trying tomake rods free of glue lines I should have hired a psychologist andworkedout my problems with trying to attain perfection--it would have costmorebut probably been more effective. Check it out: http://gink.com/index.html Best,Joe from BThoman@neonsoft.com Mon Apr 26 09:52:39 1999 Subject: Flattening Guide Feet I've been using Dave LeClair's method of flattening guide feet with t-slotnuts. I've noticed that sometimes the flattened feet are a little offcenter so that when they are wrapped on the rod they lean to one side. Ibelieve this may come from having to hit the feet more than once so nowI'mthinking that if I get a larger hammer I can get them flat with one wack.Maybe one of those 5 lb. mallets and just letting it drop on the feet.Anybody have any better ideas? I also read some of the old posts and someone mentioned hardening thenutswith Casenite (sp?), which I haven't done. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Apr 26 10:08:53 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id AAA23098; Tue, 27Apr 1999 00:08:49+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id AAA10200;Tue, 27 Apr1999 00:08:38 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Flamed Blonde Rods Harry, As for ammonium carbonate, I've never used it and not sure. If it worksto harden bamboo strips,it may be worthwhile to test it. Though you say that bamboo is the least expensive part, they sell onetonkin cane in 85 to 110 US$ ordinally in Japan. So called best qualitytonkin cane is sold at 170 US$. Can you believe it?When I imported tonkin canes by bales from US, one cane cost about 50US$. (calculated 118 yen per US$).Recently some guy is trying to sell imported tonkin cane at 46 US$through internet, who I can guess it though. bamboo species which grow around us and its almost free. Moso, Madake,Hachiku, Horai, Tochiku, Kurodake, etc... When I get a good result, I will report which method and which speciesworks. This is one year project for me. If someone has any idea to harden strips, please post it. I'd liket totest it against Japanese bamboo species. Ray also wrote a way to make a kind of hollow rod with graphite pipecovered by bamboo strips.Then, it must be able to use another kind of bamboo for the method,IMHO. Thanks Ray. Max Harry Boyd wrote: Max, Darryl, and list -- You've started me thinking.... I just finished my first reading of RayGould's book (lots of fun, by the way). Ray seems to place a good deal ofemphasis on using ammonium carbonate to not only color strips, but alsohardenthem through the carbon produced in heating the strips with ammoniumcarbonate.Since bamboo is the least expensive part of a rod, I'm not interestedin away to get good strips out of bad. My question is this: Does the ammoniatreatment do more than color the strips? Does it have some actualbenefits asfar as the properties of the cane, beyond heat treating alone? Ray (areyoulistening?) seems to use fair research techniques for many of hisclaims. Hasanyone done testing on ammonia treated vs. heat treated vs. flamed vs.blondevs. whatever else? Seems like in the past I've heard that all ammoniadoes isgive a rich color.I'm just curious. Probably will not use ammonia no matter whatanswers Iget. I don't think the owners of the convection oven I use for heattreatingwould appreciate it!Harry Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Another one of my experiments that seems to have worked. Darryl, Your method for flaming backside would give us one of opportunities toharden our species.You have really valuable experiences. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Apr 26 10:25:14 1999 via smap (4.1) 8:34:29 PDT Subject: Re: Shipping Rods Bill, My preference is the rod tube inside PVC drain pipe. I use Priority Mail because UPS now requires that packages be inspected prior to shipping andI like to have my packages ready to go when I walk into the shipping office. Put foam peanuts inside the tube between the end of the rod and the tube cap (if there is space). Most rods are packed with tiptops up. I know of a case where this space wasn't filled and both tips of a Carlson Four were broken just below the tiptop from shifting and impacting the end of the tube during shipping. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Apr 26 10:25:16 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id AAA06166; Tue, 27Apr 1999 00:25:13+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16466;Tue, 27 Apr1999 00:25:10 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Flattening Guide Feet Thoman, Let me introduce my way of flattening.I bought a small anvil and drilled several sized holes at the center ofit.After twisting snake guide, I place it hanging over the hole.Then hit one foot with a hammer. The twisted snake will balance atcenter with two feet hanging at the both side edge of the hole. If youcan drop the hammer straight and its sole is flat, you can flatten the feet by one hit. But....Even if you fail at the first hit, you can correct it by the second hitand so on.After it, I am hitting at the top of feet several times with a smallhammer which sole is round, in order to sharpen the edge of the feet. It will eliminate honing the edge of feet for wrapping. Max Thoman, Brian wrote: I've been using Dave LeClair's method of flattening guide feet with t-slotnuts. I've noticed that sometimes the flattened feet are a little offcenter so that when they are wrapped on the rod they lean to one side. Ibelieve this may come from having to hit the feet more than once so nowI'mthinking that if I get a larger hammer I can get them flat with one wack.Maybe one of those 5 lb. mallets and just letting it drop on the feet.Anybody have any better ideas? I also read some of the old posts and someone mentioned hardening thenutswith Casenite (sp?), which I haven't done. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com(303) 805-5733 -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from stuart.tod@virgin.net Mon Apr 26 10:28:57 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:26:04 +0100 Subject: Re: Flamed Blonde Rods Kreuder (in his book) refers to ammonium carbonate as a 'treatment', notjust a colouring process. Stuart Harry Boyd wrote: Max, Darryl, and list -- You've started me thinking.... I just finished my first reading of RayGould's book (lots of fun, by the way). Ray seems to place a good deal ofemphasis on using ammonium carbonate to not only color strips, but alsohardenthem through the carbon produced in heating the strips with ammoniumcarbonate.Since bamboo is the least expensive part of a rod, I'm not interestedin away to get good strips out of bad. My question is this: Does the ammoniatreatment do more than color the strips? Does it have some actualbenefits asfar as the properties of the cane, beyond heat treating alone? Ray (areyoulistening?) seems to use fair research techniques for many of hisclaims. Hasanyone done testing on ammonia treated vs. heat treated vs. flamed vs.blondevs. whatever else? Seems like in the past I've heard that all ammoniadoes isgive a rich color.I'm just curious. Probably will not use ammonia no matter whatanswers Iget. I don't think the owners of the convection oven I use for heattreatingwould appreciate it!Harry Max Satoh wrote: SalarFly@aol.com wrote: Another one of my experiments that seems to have worked. Darryl, Your method for flaming backside would give us one of opportunities toharden our species.You have really valuable experiences. Max from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Mon Apr 26 10:29:28 1999 Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:29:21 -0400 Subject: RE: Gehrke and glue lines OK, if you can't lick 'em, join 'em... On Terry's recommendation I lookedup Gehrke's web site and immediately got caught up in the excitement ofwhathe is doing. Bookmarked it and everything. The guy is offering cane rods make my first rod (gluing on the handle tonight.) My subsequent rods willeach cost me about $100 or so. That's about the limit of what I can afford- I'll never be able to buy fly rods, cane or graphite, at $330 a pop, letalone the $700 some people seem to think is "affordable." I entered theworld of fly fishing with a $175 St. Croix package five years ago and havehad great fun with that rod. It was about the limit of what I could affordthen, and it is about the limit of what I can afford now. I think there aremore fishing folk in my class than otherwise. If anybody thinks thestreamsare going to be clogged with people with cheap bamboo rods, think again.(Anyway, the apocalypse of McTrout fishing is already upon us - just visitany major Vermont stream on Opening Day. I avoid it like the plague.)Gehrke might do fine with the upper middle class who don't have theinclination to make their own - that is, 99 44/100% of the population. Morepower to him. You can't read his web page without perceiving that, for allhis bluster, the man appreciates the basic aesthetic reasons that draw ustocane. That is a head set fundamentally at odds with the McTrout mentality-George is fighting the Good Fight. - The Git from Vermont -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 10:25 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gehrke and glue lines I find uncle george's ongoing web saga very entertaining and exciting. Itreminds me the Saturday matinees I attended as a kid where Supermangotintoall sorts of trouble and left you suspended until the following week.I cannot wait to click on George's site to find out how he has extrecatedhimself from another mess.Will he? Wont he? I hope so. I cannot wait for the next episode.Terry "Joseph S.Kallo" wrote: Hi all, I try not to waste too much time thinking about this but I just had alookat George's web site and had a good laugh. I guess I've had it wrong so far. Instead of spending all my time tryingtomake rods free of glue lines I should have hired a psychologist andworkedout my problems with trying to attain perfection--it would have costmorebut probably been more effective. Check it out: http://gink.com/index.html Best,Joe from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Apr 26 11:12:14 1999 via smap (4.1) 9:21:53 PDT Subject: RE: Flamed Blonde Rods I flamed both the enamel and the pith side of a culm one time. I was going side makes for a messy start to the rough planing. I resembled a busy Chimney Sweep when I was all finished. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 26 11:50:38 1999 Subject: Re: Gehrke and glue lines Seth,half the fun of any pastime to a lot of people is "dressing the part".Cyclistsup here in Montreal do not go for a run round the block without dressing uplikeTour du France competitors with professional quality cycles to match. Flyfishing is the same, you have to look the part with all the expensiveaccoutrements that a double income family can afford from the Orviscatalog.Why would someone pay an exorbitant amount for a flimsy jacket withTommyHilfiger splashed right across the back?You perhaps live close to trout water and spend a great deal of timefishing.You know where and when to fish and what flies will work. You also knowthat thefish for some reason do not recognize the difference between a K- martspecialand a custom made offering.Most of the hype regarding this trendy new pastime of fly fishing is aboutthemarketing equipment and images, very little has been done in comparison actual quarry we are stalking.I think George's attitude has been specially cultivated to get right upcertainpeoples noses( I hate that sort of behavior! )Is he really struggling, or does he just want us just to think he is and thenget the last laugh? I'll certainly stay tunedTerry Seth Steinzor wrote: OK, if you can't lick 'em, join 'em... On Terry's recommendation I lookedup Gehrke's web site and immediately got caught up in the excitement ofwhathe is doing. Bookmarked it and everything. The guy is offering cane rods make my first rod (gluing on the handle tonight.) My subsequent rodswilleach cost me about $100 or so. That's about the limit of what I canafford- I'll never be able to buy fly rods, cane or graphite, at $330 a pop, letalone the $700 some people seem to think is "affordable." I entered theworld of fly fishing with a $175 St. Croix package five years ago andhavehad great fun with that rod. It was about the limit of what I couldaffordthen, and it is about the limit of what I can afford now. I think there aremore fishing folk in my class than otherwise. If anybody thinks thestreamsare going to be clogged with people with cheap bamboo rods, think again.(Anyway, the apocalypse of McTrout fishing is already upon us - justvisitany major Vermont stream on Opening Day. I avoid it like the plague.)Gehrke might do fine with the upper middle class who don't have theinclination to make their own - that is, 99 44/100% of the population. Morepower to him. You can't read his web page without perceiving that, forallhis bluster, the man appreciates the basic aesthetic reasons that drawus tocane. That is a head set fundamentally at odds with the McTroutmentality -George is fighting the Good Fight. - The Git from Vermont -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 10:25 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Gehrke and glue lines I find uncle george's ongoing web saga very entertaining and exciting. Itreminds me the Saturday matinees I attended as a kid where Supermangotintoall sorts of trouble and left you suspended until the following week.I cannot wait to click on George's site to find out how he hasextrecatedhimself from another mess.Will he? Wont he? I hope so. I cannot wait for the next episode.Terry "Joseph S.Kallo" wrote: Hi all, I try not to waste too much time thinking about this but I just had alookat George's web site and had a good laugh. I guess I've had it wrong so far. Instead of spending all my timetryingtomake rods free of glue lines I should have hired a psychologist andworkedout my problems with trying to attain perfection--it would have costmorebut probably been more effective. Check it out: http://gink.com/index.html Best,Joe from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Apr 26 12:25:11 1999 Subject: ammonia treatment Hi Harry and rodmakers all,You've asked a penetrating question when inquiring as to whether theammonia treatment adds anything other than color to a rod. Myrecollectionis that I first read of using ammonia carbonate in the heat treatingprocess in Claude Krieder's book "The Bamboo Rod and How to Build It"published in 1951. It was as though one had uncovered at last one of thedeep dark secrets in building cane rods. Several reports on the effects ofheat treating alone are available and in themselves paradoxical. Tom Fulkand Don Anderson have both completed tests and reported through theCorbettLake workshops that the results failed to show much if any change in theresistance to bending after heat treatment, yet the Orvis Co. has publisheda chart showing that heat treatment reduces the loss of tensile strengthafter repeated flexures. My own summary of this issue was published inissue #53 of the Planing Form. When ammonia Carbonate is added to theheattreatment process another whole variable is added. I've made (heattreated)rods both ways, with and without the ammonia carbonate. The resultsseem tome on a strictly empirical basis favor the use of the ammonia. It seems toproduce the color change quicker and I like the way the cane planes afterthe treatment. Then too it's always nice to be able to mention a little ofthe "chicanery" that some of us charlatans use!RayNote also that a whiff of the ammonia gas is excellent for cleaning outone's sinuses (not recommended). from Paulw@quik.com Mon Apr 26 16:45:31 1999 Subject: Production Sanding I am asking if any of you has a "Production" way of sanding the enamel &string off of the sticks once the glue is set, and just before varnishing.The scraping and sanding takes quite a bit of elbow grease, and I am justwondering if anyone has come up with a better and quicker way. Paul from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Apr 26 17:29:40 1999 Subject: Re: Production Sanding If you use a Urac type of resin adhesive you can wash the blank with a wetragjust after gluing up and there is very little work required after theadhesivehas set.I noticed you are one of uncle george's "experts" featured on his website?.........ok!TerryPaul Whitely wrote: I am asking if any of you has a "Production" way of sanding the enamel &string off of the sticks once the glue is set, and just before varnishing.The scraping and sanding takes quite a bit of elbow grease, and I am justwondering if anyone has come up with a better and quicker way. Paul from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Apr 26 19:58:37 1999 Subject: Re: Flattening Guide Feet Brian,Even using the "Flat Foot" technique, you will stillget some snake guides that you will have to "Tweak" the feet.Set the guide on a flat surface and check that the guide isstraight and the feet are both even with each other. "Before"you try to wrap the guide on the rod.As far as hardening the T-slot nuts, you can use casenite case hardening compound. Heat the top surfaceof the nut red hot. Sprinkle the casenite powder onto the nut,covering the complete top. Re heat the top of the nut to redagain. The powder will turn to a liquid. Keep heating the nut.The longer you keep it red, the deeper the case hardening willgo. After a few minutes, drop the nut into cold water. That's it. Just remember. If you harden it too hard, it could shatterwhen you hit it with a hammer. Wear safety glasses. Dave L. from maxs@geocities.co.jp Mon Apr 26 20:41:51 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id KAA26404; Tue, 27Apr 1999 10:41:47+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-8.9.3/GeocitiesJ-3.0) with ESMTP id KAA13563;Tue, 27 Apr1999 10:41:46 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Production Sanding Paul Whitely wrote: I am asking if any of you has a "Production" way of sanding the enamel &string off of the sticks once the glue is set, and just before varnishing.The scraping and sanding takes quite a bit of elbow grease, and I am justwondering if anyone has come up with a better and quicker way. Paul Paul, wipe off the adhesive byvinegar very easily, it's amazingly easly taken off. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from mrmac@tcimet.net Mon Apr 26 20:54:06 1999 Subject: Re: Recycling Split Cane Rods... I tried to get an inexpensive rod unglued as an experiment to improve it,since I had heard that the particular type of rod was not well gluedoriginally. Would have been an early 50s rod. I had little success gettingthe section to come apart through a variety of means: zipstrip, acetone,steam, or mechanical force with heat applied. Didn't try a long soak inwater. Perhaps that would undo what should have been (I think) hide glueatthat time. Maybe I just didn't know the secret password or something. ;-) If there is a way to get an old section apart into strips, I'd be interestedalso. mac Darrell Lee wrote: I've heard some guys are buying up junk/damaged rods, separating the 6strips from the mid and butt sections from 3 piece rods and planing theminto new 2 piece rods of their own tapers... Has anyone tried this? Darrell L. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Apr 26 21:49:56 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Mon, Subject: Polyurethane How long does one need to wait after the final coat ofpolyurethane before fishing with a rod? Thanks in advance, Richard from fquinchat@locl.net Mon Apr 26 22:13:53 1999 corsair.locl.net(8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14489 for ;Mon, 26 Apr 1999 Subject: Grayrock boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE9032.53C904C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE9032.53C904C0 What is the date of the Grayrock rod builders meeting this year? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE9032.53C904C0 What is the date of the Grayrockrod = meeting this year? Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE9032.53C904C0-- from teekay35@interlynx.net Mon Apr 26 23:12:24 1999 Subject: Re: Polyurethane 7bit Until its dry!!!! ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: PolyurethaneDate: Monday, April 26, 1999 10:11 PM How long does one need to wait after the final coat ofpolyurethane before fishing with a rod? Thanks in advance, Richard from SalarFly@aol.com Tue Apr 27 04:00:55 1999 Subject: Re: Polyurethane In a message dated 4/26/99 7:50:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, richard.nantel@videotron.ca writes: How long does one need to wait after the final coat ofpolyurethane before fishing with a rod? Depends on the poly you used, and the weather. High humidityis going make the drying time longer. I would wait at least acouple weeks, but I have fished with a rod 3 days after thefinal dip. Darryl from cattanac@wmis.net Tue Apr 27 06:51:05 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id HAA03594 for; Tue, 07:39:56 -0400 Subject: RE: Grayrock Dennis - (And Others)The official dates are June 25 & 26 (with TTBBBQ V the evening ofthe 26) -Unofficially folks will be arriving as early as the 19th (although afterthis pastweekend there still may be a Troutbum or two wandering aimlessly in thearea) - perhapsthe best opener in many years - for those planning the early adventurethere was apreviously uncharted creek discovered with pods of large Brook trout (12"- 17") - bringmosquito dope and short rod. ---------- Subject: Grayrock What is the date of the Grayrock rod builders meeting this year? Dennis from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Apr 27 07:12:13 1999 Subject: Re: Flattening Guide Feet Dave,case hardening puts a thin hardened skin on low carbon steel and thecenter will always remain soft. Case hardening is used in wearapplications and it will stand up to being hammered or squeezed. Itcertainly will not shatter. T slot nuts as used on milling machines aremade from carbon steel and it should be possible to make them harderwith heat treatment.T.Ackland IECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: Brian,Even using the "Flat Foot" technique, you will stillget some snake guides that you will have to "Tweak" the feet.Set the guide on a flat surface and check that the guide isstraight and the feet are both even with each other. "Before"you try to wrap the guide on the rod.As far as hardening the T-slot nuts, you can usecasenite case hardening compound. Heat the top surfaceof the nut red hot. Sprinkle the casenite powder onto the nut,covering the complete top. Re heat the top of the nut to redagain. The powder will turn to a liquid. Keep heating the nut.The longer you keep it red, the deeper the case hardening willgo. After a few minutes, drop the nut into cold water. That'sit. Just remember. If you harden it too hard, it could shatterwhen you hit it with a hammer. Wear safety glasses. Dave L. from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue Apr 27 07:22:12 1999 Subject: Re: Production Sanding I use Epon as well, but immediately after wrapping I simply wipe down theshaft with a slightly (water) moistened cloth. I spend little time sandingthe remaining glue from the shaft.J. Snider At 10:42 AM 4/27/99 +0900, Max Satoh wrote:Paul Whitely wrote: I am asking if any of you has a "Production" way of sanding the enamel &string off of the sticks once the glue is set, and just before varnishing.The scraping and sanding takes quite a bit of elbow grease, and I amjustwondering if anyone has come up with a better and quicker way. Paul Paul, wipe off the adhesive byvinegar very easily, it's amazingly easly taken off. Max -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from Paulw@quik.com Tue Apr 27 08:00:17 1999 Subject: Thanks I thank you for your input reguarding you procedures for sanding tips afterglueing. I see that most of you use the Garrison way of doing things. Paul from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Apr 27 09:57:54 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1998.03.08.20.27)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Tue, Subject: RE: Polyurethane I guess I should have been more specific in myquestion. When it is dry to the touch, is it fullycured? Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Ted KnottSent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Polyurethane Until its dry!!!! ----------From: Richard Nantel Subject: PolyurethaneDate: Monday, April 26, 1999 10:11 PM How long does one need to wait after thefinal coat ofpolyurethane before fishing with a rod? Thanks in advance, Richard from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Apr 27 10:07:59 1999 Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:07:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Polyurethane =_NextPart_000_01BE909D.D379E980" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE909D.D379E980 I have been able to polish my polyurethane finishes just after a week orten days of curing, but this depends upon temps around 70 degrees andmoderate humidity. cheers, Bill ----------From: SalarFly@aol.com Subject: Re: PolyurethaneDate: Monday, April 26, 1999 7:55 PM In a message dated 4/26/99 7:50:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, richard.nantel@videotron.ca writes: How long does one need to wait after the final coat ofpolyurethane before fishing with a rod? Depends on the poly you used, and the weather. High humidityis going make the drying time longer. I would wait at least acouple weeks, but I have fished with a rod 3 days after thefinal dip. Darryl------=_NextPart_000_01BE909D.D379E980 I have been able to polishmy =polyurethane finishes just after a week or ten days of curing, but this =depends upon temps around 70 degrees and moderate = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE909D.D379E980-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Apr 27 10:19:29 1999 Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:19:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Flattening Guide Feet =_NextPart_000_01BE909F.6DA6CB80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE909F.6DA6CB80 David is right about how to case harden steel, but I would suggest thatafter quenching the T-slot nut, you temper it slightly in your wife's oven.Place the nut in the cold oven and bring the temp up to 475 degrees,leaving it there for 15 minutes or so (amount of time not a criticalissue). Then turn oven off, but remove the nut only when the oven hasreturned to near-normal room temp. This will overcome any tendency forthenut to shatter when struck with a hammer, but will not significantlyaffectthe case hardening. Cheers, Bill ----------From: LECLAIR123@aol.com Subject: Re: Flattening Guide FeetDate: Monday, April 26, 1999 5:45 PM Brian,Even using the "Flat Foot" technique, you will stillget some snake guides that you will have to "Tweak" the feet.Set the guide on a flat surface and check that the guide isstraight and the feet are both even with each other. "Before"you try to wrap the guide on the rod.As far as hardening the T-slot nuts, you can use casenite case hardening compound. Heat the top surfaceof the nut red hot. Sprinkle the casenite powder onto the nut,covering the complete top. Re heat the top of the nut to redagain. The powder will turn to a liquid. Keep heating the nut.The longer you keep it red, the deeper the case hardening willgo. After a few minutes, drop the nut into cold water. That's it. Just remember. If you harden it too hard, it could shatterwhen you hit it with a hammer. Wear safety glasses. Dave L.------=_NextPart_000_01BE909F.6DA6CB80 David is right about how to=case harden steel, but I would suggest that after quenching the T-slot = the cold oven and bring the temp up to 475 degrees, leaving it there for = turn oven off, but remove the nut only when the oven has returned = =nut to shatter when struck with a hammer, but will not significantly = = far = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BE909F.6DA6CB80-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Apr 27 10:25:43 1999 Subject: Re: Production Sanding Paul, I get on the list from time to time and try to talk production rodsandsuggest they are the only way to go, and I honestly hope uncle george doesmakeit and overcomes the sad advise he is gettingI do not feel confident he will with the beveller he has purchased. Themanufacturer states that it is only good for roughing to within .020 andthis Ifeel is probably a little exaggerated when it comes to tip sections. I knowofseveral builders that have purchased a "Dickerson" beveller and arestruggling.Bed ford could not make rods with the beveller in any quantity when heacquiredit, neither can the other guy, Shaff?, who is now the owner.Dickerson made rods with his beveller but he was not a productionrodmaker withthe type of production that uncle george is planning.I would be very wary of a young guy selling his rodmaking equipment thatiscapable of producing quality production rods when there is a market without avery good reason.I intend to ship a machine bevelled strip with a section thickness of .032thatruns a length of 4ft just as a teaser to uncle george. I have one bevellerrunning and have 2 more in the process of being built.I am a terrible procrastinator and owe you guys a dept. of thanks formakingthings interesting and giving me a push.Soo, you are not alone.Good luck with the sanding.TerryPaul wrote: Thank you for the acknowledgment, that you gents are still building rodsthehard way.