regular ferrule be used (stress curve in Taper Archives uses a regularferrule in calculation). Difference between stations either side offerrule point is .041 (value at 42" I calculate to be .202 or 12.9/64,so 13/64 standard ferrule should fit). If a stepped ferrule is the wayto go how does one order size?CheersCraig from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat May 22 11:01:52 1999 Subject: Forwarded messageColumbine shootings List,this forwarded message was sent to the list by mistake and was onlymeant for one person on the list. If this upset some of you too bad. I still stand on my first point of keeping this related to rod building and related subjects besides Ginke and his pointless pursuit of a $300.00 bamboo rod. If youare worried this will cut into your rod sales then maybe that is all your rods are worth. K-Mart knows their limit. Guys like Wayne and Terry AcklandEtc have no worry about this. I know I just pissed off a bunch of people but keep your remarks to me about this off the list and if you have somethingto say send directly to me so the list is not clogged up.(BRET) from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat May 22 23:19:32 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1999.03.02.17.58.p5)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Sun, Subject: test from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 23 07:28:32 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id AAA05506 for; Mon, 24 May 199900:28:25 +1200 Subject: steel forms I decided that as some " real " rodmakers were visiting during theSouthernHemisphere gathering I had better make myself some "real" steel formsratherthen the slightly battered wooden ones I have been using . The obtaining of the steel was not too hard , ( even though the suppliersaid they would cut the 12' section in half for transport and then cut itinto two sections 5'11" long and kindly included the 2" bit from the middlewith the package !!!). The using of the dowling jig for the drilling ofholes went ok , only one went out of alignment due to the jig shifting , andthe taping of the holes ( first time I had done that )did not seem nearly asscary as some of the horror stories suggested. The cutting of the grooves takes a hell of a long time , but using TomPenrose's method I have almost finished the tip side and it seems to lookfairly right so far . However , tonight as I admired my handywork with the pull screws done uptight , I noticed that at several of the stations I could see a very faintline of light through the groove indicating the screw was not pulling thebars completely together , even though the screws were up tight. I checked Are there any suggestions such as steel twisting etc as to the cause . Also, will it matter ? Iank from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 08:45:45 1999 "iank@nelson.planet.org.nz" Subject: Re: steel forms Ian The only thing that matters and affects the strips is the slope of thegroove. Check the consistency of the slope - with your forms tightened down,take your depth gauge and start at the tip end and start at the first station andgo down the form. Do two things take the reading at each station (you may want torecord these always getgreater - if the reading goes smaller, even for a couple of inches - youhave a major problem. This means you can set the form and get a greater dimension atthat place. I have seen this in one of the forms a student of mine brought toclass - theslopewas off between stations and lo and behold the tip section of the rod hehad made ended with a slight bulge over 3" - this will affect your rod performance.This is oneofthe primary reasons I check all forms now in my class (you would besurprised at what we have found in forms). Chris On Mon, 24 May 1999 00:28:25 +1200, Ian Kearney wrote: I decided that as some " real " rodmakers were visiting during theSouthernHemisphere gathering I had better make myself some "real" steel formsratherthen the slightly battered wooden ones I have been using . The obtaining of the steel was not too hard , ( even though the suppliersaid they would cut the 12' section in half for transport and then cut itinto two sections 5'11" long and kindly included the 2" bit from themiddlewith the package !!!). The using of the dowling jig for the drilling ofholes went ok , only one went out of alignment due to the jig shifting ,andthe taping of the holes ( first time I had done that )did not seem nearly asscary as some of the horror stories suggested. The cutting of the grooves takes a hell of a long time , but using TomPenrose's method I have almost finished the tip side and it seems to lookfairly right so far . However , tonight as I admired my handywork with the pull screws doneuptight , I noticed that at several of the stations I could see a very faintline of light through the groove indicating the screw was not pulling thebars completely together , even though the screws were up tight. Ichecked Are there any suggestions such as steel twisting etc as to the cause .Also, will it matter ? Iank from briansr@point-net.com Sun May 23 08:54:04 1999 0000 Subject: Fw: whale Subject: whale I wonder if those idiots that killed the Grey Whale last in the interest of"tradition" will be charged. I hope the assholes choke on the blubber!Brian from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun May 23 12:22:25 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 13:22:20 -0400 Subject: Re: canes and reels =_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160 Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most ofus don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or thebreaking system. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rathermorerelevant. offered reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- theOrvisCFO, the Hardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offerreels coming in around the three ounce zipcode. Folks talk about the need for a "balanced" rod and reel, but I believethis idea to be entirely bogus. Nothing kills the action of an otherwiseexcellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and ounces count enormously. For the life of me, Idon't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels outthere competing for the "high-end" market. There is no reason why a reelthat is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than 3.25ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up with anythingin excess of that. Cheers, Bill From: Sue K. Subject: canes and reelsDate: Monday, May 17, 1999 6:16 AM At 08:44 PM 5/16/1999 EDT, you wrote:Bret,I have a Dennison reel that I use on my five footone weight. It does work great. I got mine last year. A friendpicked it up for me at some place up in the Adorondacks. It was $75.00 . I don't know if they are still available anywere? I'll keep my eyes open for you. Interesting, and maybe this thread would best be servedover on Wayne's new 'chat' area instead of here, but letme go for it anyway. Remember, I'm the one with the 'couple of canes', my favoritebeing a little 6'6" 3 wt. Put a little Hardy FLYWEIGHT onit, and in my opinion, it matches perfectly. Both in holdingthe line, and pleasing looks that "work" with the cane ! Let me try the question out then, cane builders/owners areoften enamored with not only the cane, but the hardware,wrappings, and I suppose the reel and line that will complimentthe cane. Curious if there IS a preferred cane reel out there ? Just to give you an example, I have a little ryall and a little rossthat don't 'fit' aesthetically with the cane. That's the only wayI can put it. But that little Hardy ? mmmm sweet ! even if she does make a tad bit o' noise *S*------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160 Sue,I don't knowthat = needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most of us =don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or the = rather more relevant.For me, the most important feature (aside = from overall high quality offered by any of a dozen current = reels coming in around the three ounce zipcode.Folks talk about = of an otherwise excellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and = why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels out there competing = =a reel that is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more =than 3.25 ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up = EDT, = have = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160-- from sats@gte.net Sun May 23 13:12:20 1999 Subject: Hardy for parts? The guy at the flea marked I stop by from time to time has what's left of ahardy. Mostly spool and insides. Ther frame's been broken sometime inthepast. I don't know the make or model. If you're interested, contact me off list... Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from brookie@frii.com Sun May 23 13:36:13 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels well now, on the weekend, I see quiet more than normal on the RodMakersList. All RodM. must be making, or in a pew asking that they do it well ! *G* Messr Harms says what I could have said and foresaken the post ( andsubsequentreplies by others ), to the delight of Sir Seth and others. Indeed, reelsareto hold the line and to be lightweight. On another flyfishing listserv Ibelong to, the masters of the gate brag on ability to cast line without areel. Always gotta be some show-offs in every crowd, eh ? But the pointisthere. The reel is to hold the line. Me personally ? The hole-er the better ( apologies to Harry B. for that badpun ). Reels like the Hardy's that have 'holes', and less weight ARE great. Not only for the cane, but for the gr**hite rods. Seems logical to me. After all, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, ...snip... offered by any of a dozen current manufacturers), is light weight. I was fascinated by all the suggestions and heretofore ( to me ) unknownreelsthough. Gave pause to reflect that perhaps those little Hardys at theirpricearen't THAT bad when compared to some of the other reels out there ! I do think in summary that the beauty of a cane rod though should be'balanced'with a beautiful reel. And in my mind, the Hardy does just that ! with that,suecolorado from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun May 23 14:16:32 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 15:16:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories =_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40 All, tip can hold a tight, open loop. But if it does, I guess it does. . . To my thinking, any taper that becomes concave at any point along the wayis a taper that has, in effect, turned "inside out." And that means youhave created an area, not of strength, but of weakness. You have created a"hinge" in the taper, and I just don't understand how that can be goodunder any circumstances. The only way to compensate for such a built-inweakness must be to add mass to the overall diameter (so you wouldn'tnotice the weakness). Well, either that, or just decide that the rod is Cheers, Bill ----------From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Re: Rod taper theoriesDate: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:26 AM I was setting my forms last night for a Dickerson 8013 taper, which I hope to have ready for the Hex hatch in a few weeks (gotta get going, I know; the hatch might be early this year.)Anyway, I thought I would look at tip dimensions with respect tothe recent discussion of tight loops. Bill Harm's idea, if I understand it correctly, is that the dimensionof the final foot or so of the rod should be Convex (the steepest taperclosest to the tip): Dim | *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *|-+----+----+----+---- +0 5 10 15 Inches from Tip The 8013 taper (the second version from Jack Howell's book) lookssomethinglike this curve, with the steepest taper close to the tip: Dist Dim Difference---------------------------0 0.054 5 0.083 0.029 10 0.097 0.014 15 0.112 0.015 Now Darryl's tight loop tip taper (see posting of Dec 2, 1998) is just the opposite (ie a Concave taper), with the steepest taper away from the tip: Dist Dim Difference-----------------------------------0 .068 5 .072 .004 10 .090 .018 15 .110 .020 I'm not sure how to reconcile these two. My gut reaction is that I like the Convex better than Concave, but I don't have enough experienceto judge wisely. Any takers?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40 All,For the life of =me, I don't know how a rod with a CONCAVE section near the tip can hold = To my thinking, any taper that becomes concave at any point =along the way is a taper that has, in effect, turned "inside = =the taper, and I just don't understand how that can be good under any =circumstances. The only way to compensate for such a built-in weakness =must be to add mass to the overall diameter (so you wouldn't notice the = = = taper = = opposite (ie a Concave taper), with the steepest taper away from the = like the Convex better than Concave, but I don't have enough = Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun May 23 14:52:12 1999 Subject: Broken rod section RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turned and smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 16:45:38 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret Why don't you just repair the break - good practice in case it happensin the future on another rod. Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 15:50:11 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sun May 23 17:04:43 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels On Sun, 23 May 1999, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most ofus don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or thebreaking system. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rathermorerelevant. offered reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- theOrvisCFO, the Hardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offerreels coming in around the three ounce zipcode. Only these?????? Think again! Abel TR-LT, 3.1 ozLoop TLP 1, 3.25 ozWaterWorks P.1, 2.9 ozRoss CO-0, 3.3 ozAYR FP-2.4, 2.4 ozHardy St. George Junior, 3.25 oz.Forbes Avon 2.5", 2.6 oz Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 17:47:43 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not to rushanythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember the old saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is that themasterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection. Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are working onrods.Bret from rmoon@ida.net Sun May 23 18:17:05 1999 0000 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section ChrisSome of the very best advice ever made on this list. Everytime I rush Iscrew up EVERY TIME Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun May 23 21:00:22 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section accidents happen, if they did not there would be no insurance companies.Just make a new tip, not a big deal. If you had broken the tip of a Classicbelonging toacustomer it would have would have been a little more serious. Chris Bogart wrote: Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not torush anythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember theold saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is thatthe masterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection.Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are workingon rods.Bret from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 23 21:10:12 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id OAA01393; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:09:48 +1200 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Broken rod section Well Bret, I found a new way to ruin a tip last week also. We got a new pup a fewmonths ago and were so please to see she seemed to prefer to chew bits ofwood rather then shoes , plastic cords ( including the internet connectinglead ) hoses , irrigation fittings etc which the old dog had a liking for . You can guess what happened as the pup was happily sitting under theworkbench last week and I was ignoring her activities. One very chewed rodtip!!! It is just as well the pup has some other very attractive attributes. Iank At 03:50 PM 23/05/99 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sun May 23 22:59:37 1999 Subject: RE: Broken rod section I broke a butt section in the lathe once. Fashioning the grip withsandpaper when the sandpaper pinched the rod. Well, the rod stopped butthelathe didn't. Snapped it right above the handle. One of those times whenyou just sit and stare at the rod turning in the lathe saying to yourself"that didn't just happen, did it?" Found out not to wrap the sandpaperaround the rod section but to hold it with two hands. After contemplating whether to rebuild the section or make a splice Ichoseto rebuild. I guess I could have made a splice and fished it hard to testhow strong a splice really is. The worst thing about breaking the rod isnot the time but the fact that I used the best 12 pieces of cork I had! Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 -----Original Message-----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com [SMTP:Grhghlndr@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 1:50 PM RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Broken rod section Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell foryou? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from djk762@hotmail.com Mon May 24 00:00:46 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 21:57:15 PDT Subject: Broken Rod Sections Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly large Northern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches in strong current, Broke the mid just below the ferrule of my Leonarnd 501/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in a timely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson in this my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboo gods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon May 24 07:38:46 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels boundary="=====================_3977730==_.ALT" --=====================_3977730==_.ALT Right on, Cheers Bill. Why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for a reelthatdoesn't "sing" and weighs a ton is beyond me (I WILL take exception to thePeerless and its knockoffs, however). Everytime I start to purchase one ofthenew "upscale" reels I back off, go fondle a Hardy reel, and then purchaseyetanother CFO.J. Snider.At 01:19 PM 5/23/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most of usdon't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or the breakingsystem. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rather morerelevant. offered reducesyour choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- the Orvis CFO, theHardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offer reelscomingin around the three ounce zipcode. Folks talk about the need for a "balanced" rod and reel, but I believethis excellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and ounces count enormously. For the life of me,Idon't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels outthere competing for the "high-end" market. There is no reason why areelthat is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than3.25ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up withanything inexcess of that. Cheers, Bill From: Sue K. Subject: canes and reelsDate: Monday, May 17, 1999 6:16 AM At 08:44 PM 5/16/1999 EDT, you wrote:Bret,I have a Dennison reel that I use on my five footone weight. It does work great. I got mine last year. A friendpicked it up for me at some place up in the Adorondacks. It was $75.00 . I don't know if they are still available anywere? I'll keep my eyes open for you. Interesting, and maybe this thread would best be servedover on Wayne's new 'chat' area instead of here, but letme go for it anyway. Remember, I'm the one with the 'couple of canes', my favoritebeing a little 6'6" 3 wt. Put a little Hardy FLYWEIGHT onit, and in my opinion, it matches perfectly. Both in holdingthe line, and pleasing looks that "work" with the cane ! Let me try the question out then, cane builders/owners areoften enamored with not only the cane, but the hardware,wrappings, and I suppose the reel and line that will complimentthe cane. Curious if there IS a preferred cane reel out there ? Just to give you an example, I have a little ryall and a little rossthat don't 'fit' aesthetically with the cane. That's the only wayI can put it. But that little Hardy ? mmmm sweet ! even if she does make a tad bit o' noise *S* --=====================_3977730==_.ALT Right on, Cheers Bill. Why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for areel that doesn't "sing" and weighs a ton is beyond me (I WILLtake exception to the Peerless and its knockoffs, however). Everytime Istart to purchase one of the new "upscale" reels I back off, gofondle a Hardy reel, and then purchase yet another CFO.J. Snider.At 01:19 PM 5/23/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, After all, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, sincemost of us don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or rather more relevant. And that reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- zipcode. kills the action of an otherwise excellent rod more than me, I don't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than 3.25 ounces, and I don'tunderstand why fly fishers would put up with anything in excess ofthat. Cheers, Bill rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu canes and reels have a Dennison reel that I use on my five foot last year. A friend Adorondacks. still available any Hardy FLYWEIGHT on holding ! compliment there ? ross way *S* --=====================_3977730==_.ALT-- from cotner@novagate.com Mon May 24 09:15:37 1999 Subject: Test - please delete Just a test to see whether I've been bumped or everyone's out fishing from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 11:31:17 1999 9:35:06 PDT Subject: RE: Phillipson 5 wt. Craig, I made a rod based on that taper. I used a standard size 13 ferrule. It is a very fast action rod. A very different feel from other rods I've made, but I like it. Most of the action is in the top half, as it has a swelled butt. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from gord@teleport.com Mon May 24 12:56:55 1999 0000 (216.26.7.67) Subject: Taper datafile format I have a dim memory of someone asking about a uniform taper file format been back in '96. Were any standards agreed upon then or at any timesince? Cheers,Gord from castafly@gbis.com Mon May 24 13:33:02 1999 Subject: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0 I am interested in building my first rod, which will be an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 =wt. I really like the later Wright & McGill Granger rods, but I am =having trouble finding the right taper. I have found two tapers on =internet taper archives, but they vary from eachother considerably--so =much so that I am hesitant to use either one of them. I also understand =one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger tapers, but I don't =have access to that issue. Can anyone out there list this taper for me? = Also, if anyone out there has the taper for an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a =similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a little stronger tip) I =would appreciate any information you might have. Thanks in advance, Jeff Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0 I am interested in building myfirst = found two tapers on internet taper archives, but they vary from = considerably--so much so that I am hesitant to use either one of = also understand one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger = Also, if anyone out there has the = 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a = stronger tip) I would appreciate any information you might =have. Thanks in advance, Jeff =Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 14:04:30 1999 12:08:20 PDT Subject: RE: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 Jeff, I looked at the three 8 1/2' W&M tapers listed on Rodmakers. from what I've read, Granger tapers are categorized by rod scale weight, and the scale weight determination is taken from the tube label. Depending onwhat point and what method was used to weigh the rod, who knows whether the scale wt. designations on the labels are spot on or "close". I think with the 8 1/2' as well as the 9' rods there were at least three, maybe four different weights, from 4 3/4oz. to 5 5/8oz, I'm going on memory here. The three rods on Rodmakers are probably different tapers. The one Daryl measured is clearly from a heavier wt. rod and he lists it as a 7 wt. The one Tom measured is lighter and he listed it as a 5 wt. I'm just speculating on all this. It's also possible that at different era's and with various bevelers and processes etc. maybe there was somedifferences in tapers of the same weight. I think they call this refinement. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from djk762@hotmail.com Mon May 24 15:00:15 1999 Mon, 24 May 1999 12:59:42 PDT Subject: Broken Rod Sections Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly large Northern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches in strong current, Broke the mid just below the top ferrule of my Leonarnd50 1/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in a timely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson in this my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboo gods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon May 24 15:25:38 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id PAA24461 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id PAA17941 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 Subject: Re: Taper datafile format Gord, Wayne C brought this issue up last December. I agree with Waynethat it would be a "good thing" if all the various programs couldshare data files (I don't know how Jerry F or Bruce C feel), but it didn't get much farther than this. There are several little stumbling blocks to making this a reality.Individually they're not much but put them together and you have a big stumbling block. I know that the files from Wayne's programand my Web hexrod are quite different in ways that really reflect the logic of our programs. If there are any software designers out there who want to discussthis further, we can probably do it off- list.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 24 May 1999, Gordon Johnson wrote: I have a dim memory of someone asking about a uniform taper fileformat been back in '96. Were any standards agreed upon then or at any timesince? Cheers,Gord from tdapple@execpc.com Mon May 24 17:27:39 1999 0500 bypop05.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA01326 for; Mon, 24 May 199917:27:29 - 0500 Subject: Granger Custom boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0 I came upon a rod. It say's Granger Custom Model 8553, HCF#7-GBG#8. It =has a nickel silver uplocking realseat and basically looks brand new. =Could anyone give me any info on it, including what HCF and GBG mean. =Thanxs Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better" P.S. I know what granger is, just never heard of the model. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0 I came upon a rod. It say's Granger Custom Model = HCF#7-GBG#8. It has a nickel silver uplocking realseat and basically = new. Could anyone give me any info on it, including what HCF and GBG = Thanxs Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better" P.S. I know what granger is, just never heard of the= model. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 18:00:38 1999 16:04:31 PDT Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653 means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number is preceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Since it is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix. GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't go that route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know if they let the customer pick a color other then some of the standard Granger colors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares to other 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7 line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from dpeaston@wzrd.com Mon May 24 18:21:03 1999 Subject: RE: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 At 11:51 AM 5/24/1999 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote:Jeff, I looked at the three 8 1/2' W&M tapers listed on Rodmakers. from what I've read, Granger tapers are categorized by rod scale weight, and the scale weight determination is taken from the tube label. Depending onwhat point and what method was used to weigh the rod, who knows whetherthe scale wt. designations on the labels are spot on or "close". I think with the 8 1/2' as well as the 9' rods there were at least three, maybe four different weights, from 4 3/4oz. to 5 5/8oz, I'm going on memory here. The three rods on Rodmakers are probably different tapers. The one Daryl measured is clearly from a heavier wt. rod and he lists it as a 7 wt. The one Tom measured is lighter and he listed it as a 5 wt. I'm just speculating on all this. It's also possible that at different era's and with various bevelers and processes etc. maybe there was somedifferences in tapers of the same weight. I think they call this refinement. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Hi Jeff, The 8.5' Grange Aristocrat taper on the Rod Makers web site is taken frommy rod. I did the measuring and sent the results to Tom who made theniftystress curves. My rod weighs 5 oz. with grip and reel seat. The followingtable is taken from Dick Spurr's Classic Cane value guide for GoodwinGranger and Wright McGill rods,http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/canecoun/VALUE.htm : Aristocrat7' 3 oz. Two-Piece $11007*' 3 oz. Model GA7633 $8508' 4 oz. Model GA8040 $7508*' 4* oz. Model GA8642 $4509' 5 oz. Model GA9050 $3509* 5* oz. Model GA9653 $30010' 6* oz. Model GA1062 $325 I have no label on my tube and therefore I do not know the GA # forcertain. My guess is that it is a GA8642 because it is a 8.5' rod. The 53(5 3/4 oz) is not found amongst the aristocrats or the victorys. The rodmust therefor be built on a custom blank. My rod is clearly on the lightside of 5 wt. (does best with a Wulff TT 5). Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tdapple@execpc.com Mon May 24 19:08:05 1999 0500 bypop02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA32230 for; Mon, 24 May 199919:08:01 - 0500 Subject: Re: Granger Custom Chris, The wraps are gold, I couldn't tell you the taper, I don't have the tools have a friend who may have a micrometer I could measure it with, tell mewhere on the rod to measure and I'll let you know. Right now I have to gopick up another rod. My mom met a guy at the hospital and talked for a fewand he just called me telling me my mom told him I had a thing for bambooflyrods. So he's going to give me his. Imagine that. I'm gonna have to takehim out for a beer or something. Can't wait to see what it is ( I hope it'snot a club ).See y'all Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better"----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number ispreceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Sinceit is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix.GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't gothat route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know ifthey let the customer pick a color other then some of the standardGrangercolors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares toother 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon May 24 19:37:32 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0CE222A008A; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:37:34 EDT Subject: Re: Broken Rod Sections David,I doubt it was the matter of horsing the fish. When breaks occur at aferrule, especially an upper mid that has a snake just below it, thesuspectwould be Rot. A little water under the winds after the varnish cracks attheferrules and in no time you have good conditions for fungal growth. (Waxmayprevent this, at least that is my hope.) Just one man's theory.Best regards,Reed David Kashuba wrote: Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly largeNorthern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches instrong current, Broke the mid just below the top ferrule of my Leonarnd501/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in atimely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson inthis my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboogods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from robert.kope@cwix.com Mon May 24 21:10:02 1999 with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 May 1999 02:09:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40 The two tapers listed in the rodmakers archives differ quite a bit form =each other as well as from the one in the taper archives. As far as I =know, Granger only made one model of 8 1/2 footer (except for custom =orders) and that was the 8642. According to Sinclair, that was =designated a 5 wt. I understand that their tapers did change over time =or were "refined", and tended to become faster in later years. The =taper in the Planing Form doesn't bear too much resemblance to any in =the archives, but here it is: 0 0625 07310 09215 10920 12225 13730 15035 16840 18745 20650 22055 23260 24065 24570 26475 28380 29085 30690 31895 371100 380105 380 The rod is identified as an Aristocrat belonging to the collection of =Mr. Dana Gray of Townsend, Maine and was measured without varnish. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: Jeff Ferguson Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:37 AMSubject: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 I am interested in building my first rod, which will be an 8 1/2' =3/2 5 wt. I really like the later Wright & McGill Granger rods, but I =am having trouble finding the right taper. I have found two tapers on =internet taper archives, but they vary from eachother considerably--so =much so that I am hesitant to use either one of them. I also understand =one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger tapers, but I don't =have access to that issue. Can anyone out there list this taper for me? = Also, if anyone out there has the taper for an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with =a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a little stronger tip) =I would appreciate any information you might have. Thanks in advance, Jeff Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40 The two tapers listed in the = any in the archives, but here it is: 062 073 092 109 122 137 150 168 187 206 220 232 240 245 264 283 290 306 318 371 380 380 The rod is identified as an Aristocrat belonging to = collection of Mr. Dana Gray of Townsend, Maine and was measured varnish. -- Robert Kope -----Original = =RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, May 24, 1999 11:37 AMSubject: Taper For = 1/2' 3/2I am interested in building my= McGill Granger rods, but I am having trouble finding the right = I have found two tapers on internet taper archives, but they vary = eachother considerably--so much so that I am hesitant to use either = Also, if anyone out there has = an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe = have. Thanks inadvance, Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40-- from hhholland@erols.com Tue May 25 07:09:58 1999 Subject: Re: Granger Custom The GBG rating is for a DT-8, and the HCF, as Chris points out is for aWF-7. Unusual, don't you think? Most rods today that have a two-linerating -- say 5/6 -- go the opposite way. The lower line -- the 5 weightinthe example, is for a double taper, while the higher (the #6) is for aweight-forward. Thus, a rod listed as a 5/6 would be for a DT-5 or a WF-6.The Granger Custom goes the other way. Most bamboo rods I have knownwerequite comfortable handling two or three different line weights, but I findthis designation interesting.Regards,......Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number ispreceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Sinceit is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix.GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't gothat route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know ifthey let the customer pick a color other then some of the standardGrangercolors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares toother 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rafick@fwi.com Tue May 25 14:46:56 1999 Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! -----Original Message----- Subject: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! Please read the following carefully if you intend tostay online and continue using email: The last fewmonths have revealed an alarming trend in theGovernment of the United States attempting to quietlypush through legislation that will affect your use ofthe Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S.Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email usersout of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permitthe Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge onevery email delivered, by billing Internet ServiceProviders at source. The consumer would then bebilled in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyerRichard Stepp isworking without pay to prevent this legislation frombecoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming thatlost revenue due to the proliferation of email iscosting nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. Youmay have noticed their recent ad campaign "There isnothing like a letter". Since the average citizenreceived about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, thecost to the typical individual would be an additional50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, aboveand beyond their regular Internet costs. Note thatthis would be money paid directly to the U.S. PostalService for a service they do not even provide. Thewhole point of the Internet is democracy andnon-interference. If the federal government ispermitted to tamper with ourliberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knowswhere it will end. You are already paying anexorbitant price for snail mail because of bureacraticefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for aletter to bedelivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. PostalService is allowed to tinker with email, it will markthe end of the "free" Internet in the United States.One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a"twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on allInternet service" above and beyond the government'sproposed email charges. Note that most of the majornewspapers have ignored the story, the only exceptionbeing the Washingtonian which called the idea of emailsurcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch yourfreedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your list and tellyour friends and relatives to write to theircongressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and GormanAttorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. --WebTV-Mail-628228654-46-- from WLBond@cps-satx.com Tue May 25 15:33:24 1999 199920:36:36 UT Subject: RE: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! This is a hoax. See the rest of my message below. We outdoors peoplehaveenough problems with every half wit in the world attacking out sports forthe fun of it. Please verify your sources before you send more of theseout.BB I have received thousands of letters and e-mails from constituentsconcernedabout alleged per-minute charges to access the internet and about asupposedbill numbered 602P to tax the Internet. I would like to take thisopportunity to address both issues. Neither the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) nor Congress isplanningto impose a per- minute fee on access to the Internet. The controversy overthis issue arose from erroneous reports that the government waspreparing toregulate or tax the Internet. In fact, the issue under consideration was theway in which phone companies pay each other for traffic that is passedoverphone lines before ever reaching the Internet. In addition, on February 25, 1999, the FCC ruled that consumers who gainaccess to the Internet by dialing a seven digit number will not incur longdistance charges when they do so. In a statement, FCC chairman BillKennardnoted, "I want to say this as clearly as I can ... as long as I'm Chairmanof the Federal Communications Commission this agency will not regulatetheInternet." I have linked to a FCC factsheet with more information. Also, visitDepartment of Energy's Computer Incident Advisory Capability Hoax Pageforinformation about the false rumor spreading over the Internet.Regarding the false story you may have read regarding bill numbered 602P,nobill has been introduced to enact a surcharge on Internet services. Theinformation you and many others have received is completely false. Tosearchbills introduced in Congress, please visit the Library of Congress' THOMASweb site. I hope this information is helpful. ----------From: R.A.Fick[SMTP:rafick@fwi.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! -----Original Message-----From: Kerry Bridger Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:36 PMSubject: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! Please read the following carefully if you intend tostay online and continue using email: The last fewmonths have revealed an alarming trend in theGovernment of the United States attempting to quietlypush through legislation that will affect your use ofthe Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S.Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email usersout of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permitthe Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge onevery email delivered, by billing Internet ServiceProviders at source. The consumer would then bebilled in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyerRichard Stepp isworking without pay to prevent this legislation frombecoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming thatlost revenue due to the proliferation of email iscosting nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. Youmay have noticed their recent ad campaign "There isnothing like a letter". Since the average citizenreceived about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, thecost to the typical individual would be an additional50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, aboveand beyond their regular Internet costs. Note thatthis would be money paid directly to the U.S. PostalService for a service they do not even provide. Thewhole point of the Internet is democracy andnon-interference. If the federal government ispermitted to tamper with ourliberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knowswhere it will end. You are already paying anexorbitant price for snail mail because of bureacraticefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for aletter to bedelivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. PostalService is allowed to tinker with email, it will markthe end of the "free" Internet in the United States.One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a"twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on allInternet service" above and beyond the government'sproposed email charges. Note that most of the majornewspapers have ignored the story, the only exceptionbeing the Washingtonian which called the idea of emailsurcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch yourfreedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your list and tellyour friends and relatives to write to theircongressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and GormanAttorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. --WebTV-Mail-628228654-46-- from brewer@teleport.com Tue May 25 17:39:08 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAu90a._; Tue May 2515:38:58 1999 Subject: Hoaxes, virus warnings, things that go bump... Please, please, please do not use this list for spreading so-called"helpful" warning messages that almost always turn out to be hoaxes. Ifyoureceive a warning that really concerns you, verify it with the properauthority. If it is true, then go annoy your pals with it but keep it offthe list. Forwarding these messages to the list makes you look like a fool.I don't know about you folks, but I have plenty of ways to do that myselfwithout filling up everyone else's mailbox. Let's keep this list concerned with the topic of bamboo rod building! My $.02 -Randy Brewer from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 25 19:08:28 1999 Subject: Re: NS Ferrules owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tom, Some years ago I spliced a piece into the tip of an English (or Scottish) rod that was connected with electricians' tape over the beveled pieces. So, at least across the pond, somebody's marketing the beveled splice vs. thens ferrule.Regards,Hank. from BambooRods@aol.com Tue May 25 19:24:18 1999 Subject: Hex Hatch Just wondering if anyone knew or was willing to predict about the hexhatch year. Perhaps those in the area can provide input. Maybe Wayne or Steve. Any thoughts.doug from brookie@frii.com Tue May 25 19:51:03 1999 Subject: South Bend cork thumb recess RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed with the grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go in that thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on the cork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from Canerods@aol.com Tue May 25 20:03:04 1999 Subject: Re: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 All, I've just acquired an 8'6" W&M Granger Special (wonder if it differs fromthe G.G. taper?) and I'm planning on stripping it soon. I'll post it's taper at that time. Don Burns from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue May 25 20:03:51 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I've seen a few Paul Youngs with thumb recess, one with two of 'em! The Winston Joan Wulf signature model has one,-my wife loves the grip so Ineed to make one on the blonde Driggs I keep meaning to make for her...However, it seems though that if the hand is locked into one position onthe handle, it can get tiresome. The ability to shift the hand along the grip throughout the day seems to alleviate this. Hey, the ol' cigar has made alot of folks happy for alot of years! Rob Hoffhines from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue May 25 20:07:40 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9B08F400BC; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:09:04 EDT Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 20:13:05 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id VAA28662; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:13:00 -0400 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Another comfort feature was the ventilated grip - PHY advocated thismodification for the serious angler that spent many hours on the stream -the venting was a 1/8" wide undercut at the middle of each 1/2" cork ring from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Tue May 25 20:21:32 1999 us.dialup.earthlink.net Subject: Re[2]: South Bend cork thumb recess boundary="=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM" --=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM I think I saw the Joan Wulff model T&T graphite rod with the thumbnotch..=.I also thought it felt pretty good... Darrell=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? --=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM-- from brookie@frii.com Tue May 25 21:18:15 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess At 09:15 PM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:Another comfort feature was the ventilated grip- PHY advocated this modification for the seriousangler that spent many hours on the stream - theventing was a 1/8" wide undercut at the middle of each 1/2" cork ring Well now, this IS just like undergoing hypnosis ! The rod I saw tonight ? it had these vents too!I thought it was some sort of artsy 'design' . So,I'll ask the obvious question, if they were for"comfort", how was it supposed to work, function thusly ? The vents in the cork pieces allowed someflexing or ? mmmm from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Tue May 25 21:33:41 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: [Fwd: Broken rod section] boundary="------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192 And I'd add that trying to do work that requires attention when you'retoo tired or distracted is as bad as hurrying. I used to try to spendsome time every evening working on my current rod project. Now I don'teven try if "it's" not there. Brian --------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192 (envelope- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu) "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not to rushanythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember the old saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is that themasterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection. Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are working onrods.Bret --------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192-- from chris@artistree.com Tue May 25 21:33:49 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I remember a recent discussion at the local angler's club about thethumb groove (similar to South Bend) on the Winston rod. This grip didnot get a very favorable review. The reason being somewhat dependent oncasting styles but mostly based on the "ergonomic" way to cast a rod. Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. The thumb isnot the strongest muscle in your hand. A lot of fisherman out hereprefer a "split grip" when casting the rod. With this your thumb hangsover to one side and your index finger is on the other side. The areabetween your thumb and index finger is used to push the rod. This areaof your hand is much stronger. It also helps keep a more controlledcasting stroke and is believed to reduce the chance of medical problems from repetitive stress. Just my $.02 Chris Wohlford "Sue K." wrote: Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from hiltonl@benzie.com Tue May 25 22:00:18 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A45450A50142; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:02:44 EST Subject: Gripping inovations I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young. A friend of mine has a rod with that style of grip but has nevercommented on it, other than to say he thought it looked neat. A type of grip I've experimented with is a modified cigar shape but hasan indexing ridge on the underside of the rod in line with the guides,very similar to that of a golf club grip. . The idea was to allow meto feel where the rod was pointed while night fishing the hex hatch anddeer mousing at night. It does the job in my XXLg hands.Larry from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 22:31:41 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA07033; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:31:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Larry -You may or may not know it but Todd is the grandson of PHY(Paul HYoung)and uses much of the equipment that his grandfather did.- I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 22:49:56 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA08029 for ;Tue, 25 May 1999 Subject: Adding photos I realize that some of us see names and often times would like to put aface with it. Mark is doing a good job of showing mugs at TBFR mag.However,they are more staged and may not reflect the true 'character' - WELL -overthe years I have taken full advantage of the moments and have a ratherdeepcollection of mug shots and others and I am currently in the process of'showing all' - And I also promise that before I head to Grayrock thisweekend that HexRod ?? will be in place for downloading. Larry Hilton - I see that your server is Benzie.com - Hummmm - could thatbeassociated with the county name of the same from Michigan - you didmentionHEX - and there aren't that many locales for them - from harry37@epix.net Wed May 26 06:56:19 1999 SMTP id HAA15352; Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Larry Hilton wrote: I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young. A friend of mine has a rod with that style of grip but has nevercommented on it, other than to say he thought it looked neat. A type of grip I've experimented with is a modified cigar shape but hasan indexing ridge on the underside of the rod in line with the guides,very similar to that of a golf club grip. . The idea was to allow meto feel where the rod was pointed while night fishing the hex hatch anddeer mousing at night. It does the job in my XXLg hands.Larry Larry, I accidentally created a depressed grip when I was turning a grip andone or two cork rings got worked down farther than the rest. The resultwas a depression that worked out to be exactly where my middle fingerwould wrap around the handle. I was first really upset with myself forletting that happen, but as I casted the rod a bit, I found that it wasactually very comfortable. I'm now telling folks that I intentionallydesigned the handle with a middle finger depression to fit my righthand. I think that this will be the only rod handle that I will build thisway, though. I agree with the other posts--over time, it's easier onyour hand if you can move it up and down the handle, rather than lock itin the same spot every time. In a related vein-- Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They look alittle wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. Iwould guess they're a real headache to ream out, and expensive to throwout when you make a mistake. Greg from anglport@con2.com Wed May 26 06:57:56 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Reed,Was that the idea behing the (reverse) conical grip of the Ritz rods?Youcould certainly find a diameter you liked SOMEWHERE up-and-down thosebabies!Art At 09:07 PM 5/25/99 -0400, Reed Curry wrote:Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed May 26 07:40:46 1999 Subject: Re: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt water use this grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You can avoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you should maintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times. This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger are relaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneither the front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, and then instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintained the firm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you would hurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop with a heavy rod with any other grip, however. I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip are comfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot of experimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.You can make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetter or worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the full wells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and the cigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As you said, It is a matter of opinion. from brookie@frii.com Wed May 26 08:42:12 1999 Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They look a little wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. I would guess they're a real headache toream out, and expensive to throw out when you make a mistake. Have a website for these ? so we can view ? from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed May 26 08:52:36 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess At 08:40 AM 5/26/1999 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. >> I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt water use this grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You can avoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you should maintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times. This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger are relaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneither the front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, and then instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintainedthe firm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you would hurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop witha heavy rod with any other grip, however. I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip are comfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot of experimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.You can make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetter or worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the full wells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and the cigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As yousaid, It is a matter of opinion. I think that hand "mobility" on the grip may also be a casting mechanicsissue. I notice that my hand position relates to the type of casting strokeI intend to make. Usually I choke down for short dellicate casts and slideback to wale away. I like a smaller diameter forward and larger towardthebutt. Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 26 09:45:46 1999 Wed, 26 May 1999 22:43:49 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Gripping inovations I've tried one of these .....grips. They actually work pretty well andmake it hard to bend your wrist too far back but I can't get my headaround them on plastic let alone the right stuff. You made the point yourself re. fatigue unless you can move the grip from time to time. It's a little sad to see something as simple as a cork handle become toodifficult to make yourself. Tony your hand if you can move it up and down the handle, rather than lock itin the same spot every time. In a related vein-- Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They lookalittle wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. Iwould guess they're a real headache to ream out, and expensive to throwout when you make a mistake. Greg /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from LambersonW@missouri.edu Wed May 26 14:02:30 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from hhholland@erols.com Wed May 26 15:08:50 1999 , Subject: Re: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I have to agree with Mr. Smithwick. I do a lot of saltwater fishing, anddistance is not a luxury, it is a MUST. You simply can't get the crisp andsudden stop on either the back or forward cast without the thumb on top.This sudden stop is one of the keys to loop control and casting distance. Iteach casting all the time at the fly shop I manage, and while I sometimeshave students use an index finger on top, or the slightly turned grip tohelp them get the feel of keeping the rod tip high on the back cast (youcan't throw the tip down as easily with these grips) I have them go back tothe thumb on top as soon as possible. Different strokes for differentfolks, I guess.Regards, .....Hank H. -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. >> I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt waterusethis grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You canavoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you shouldmaintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times.This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger arerelaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneitherthe front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, andthen instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintainedthefirm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you wouldhurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop withaheavy rod with any other grip, however.I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip arecomfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot ofexperimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.Youcan make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetteror worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logicalconclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the fullwells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and thecigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As yousaid,It is a matter of opinion. from anglport@con2.com Wed May 26 15:48:31 1999 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: Re: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page Bill,Try http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod-archive.html It loads quite quickly on my p133 at a connection of 26,400 kps. May beyour machine. Hope this helps.Art At 02:02 PM 5/26/99 -0500, Lamberson, William R. wrote:I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed May 26 15:53:37 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id PAA07078; Wed, 26 May1999 15:53:27 -0500 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with Subject: Re: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page Bill, We've had some intermittent network problems here (I noticedthem Monday and again today.) That may be the source of yourproblems. The URL is http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/hexrod.htmlBut its doesn't matter whether you enter it yourself or clickon the Rodmakers page. That's why they call it the "World Wide Wait" ;- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 26 May 1999, Lamberson, William R. wrote: I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from chris@artistree.com Wed May 26 16:16:31 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Best Regards, Chris Wohlford p.s. - Chester, If your out there...I'll be ready by this fall!!! from gaff@carol.net Wed May 26 16:51:00 1999 0400 Subject: greenfield lathe hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 26 18:58:41 1999 Thu, 27 May 1999 07:58:15 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: greenfield lathe Gee, I wish we had lathes in the churches around here! ;-) Perhaps I aughtn't have said that? Tony On Wed, 26 May 1999, w.d. gatliff wrote: hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed May 26 20:30:45 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0A216E7012A; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:32:18 EDT Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed Chris Wohlford wrote: Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Just to clarify the the grip I mentioned, the index finger does not reston top. When looking down directly at the grip, the top being 12:00 andif the thumb was at 9:00 your index finger would be at 2:00. You stopthe rod by tightening your grip. A fellow list member turned this former east coast boy on to casting forsteelhead. So I've been practicing my casting with a 10 ft 9 wt, w/running line and a heavy lead core shooting head. Made the mistake oftrying to stop that rig with my thumb on top a few times... couldn'thold my plane for a week! Best Regards, Chris Wohlford p.s. - Chester, If your out there...I'll be ready by this fall!!! from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed May 26 22:56:41 1999 Subject: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperature theglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to be alot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured the gluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know and I'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 before theglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at 250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from splitcanekev@excite.com Wed May 26 22:58:01 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP Wed, 26 May 1999 20:58:11 -0700 Subject: Re: greenfield lathe at mass Was that mass at "Our Lady of Perpetual Planing"? On Wed, 26 May 1999 17:50:00 -0400, w.d. gatliff wrote: hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil Kevin P. Burkhardt"Better living through bamboo..."http://ww4.choice.net/~spazz/flyfish.htm _______________________________________________________Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ from splitcanekev@excite.com Wed May 26 23:03:51 1999 fortune.excite.com(InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP 0700 Subject: Harrisburg, PA. Hi all, Long time no posts...I've been hiding in the wings and laying low...also gota new e-mail just for my fishing stuff. Anyway...I'm going to be in Harrisburg next week from Tuesday thru Friday(on business, sadly). Does anyone on the list live around there (or havefriends that do) that I could hook up with for a little fishing and/orbamboo chatter. Any leads would be appreciated. see ya, Kev Kevin P. Burkhardt"Better living through bamboo..."http://ww4.choice.net/~spazz/flyfish.htm _______________________________________________________Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed May 26 23:47:20 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I get my Shell 100 UF glue (its called Casco Resin here in Canada) from afirm that makes architectural veneers. They cure the veneer layer onto acore at temperatures approaching 400 degrees F. The glued sheet is readyin about 4 minutes. I'm experimenting with a high temp post cure to seeits effect on a finished rod. ----------From: Thoman, Brian Subject: Slightly Scientific Glue TestDate: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:55 PM I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8before theglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from chris@artistree.com Thu May 27 01:38:24 1999 Subject: John Alden Knight You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu May 27 05:30:12 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id TAA09743; Thu, 27May 1999 19:30:03+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-GeocitiesJ-3.1) with ESMTP id TAA13415; Thu,27 May 199919:29:58 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Hello Chris san, I am a Japanese crafter and have been researching the origin of bamboofly rod in my country.There was one pioneer hexagonal rod maker in my country about 80 yearsago right after the end of WW-II. He wrote a sentence on Japanesefishing magazine in 1955 as follows; "Considering the effects of dry and wet of the air, and to protect a rod from the stretch and the shrink of bamboo, it seems effective to planestrips in 60.5 degrees for thicker strips and thinner strips in 61degrees." It is interesting to know that there are similar thoughts in the world. Max Chris Wohlford wrote: You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from brookie@frii.com Thu May 27 06:45:51 1999 Subject: Re: Harrisburg, PA. At 09:03 PM 5/26/99 -0700, you wrote:Hi all, Long time no posts...I've been hiding in the wings and laying low...also got a new e-mail just for my fishing stuff. Anyway...I'm going to be in Harrisburg next week from Tuesday thru Friday (on business, sadly). Does anyone on the list live around there (or have friends that do)that I could hook up with for a little fishing and/orbamboo chatter. Any leads would be appreciated. Irreverantly said : well Kevin, that IS where John Randolph hangs his fishingcaps. You know of the Fly Fisherman Mag infamy ... corporateoffices are there, yes ? I say you drop by the offices,pick 'im up, convert him to the wonders and beauty of cane flyfishing ! And if he's already converted, have him jointhe RodM. list. suecolorado*G* from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu May 27 08:05:12 1999 Thu, 27 May 1999 09:03:46 -0400 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight =_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500 Chris, Yes, indeed, that's a known (but less regularly practiced) technique. The more neatly together, allowing the glue to flow more uniformly betweenthestrips. The reduced angle should also produce tighter fits at the outsidecorners of the flats, and ensure less danger of "starving" the jointswithin. To me, the idea makes perfect sense. Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute angle as a regular option onhisHand Planing Mill. cheers, Bill ----------From: Chris Wohlford Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: John Alden KnightDate: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:44 PM You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500 Chris,Yes, indeed, = of course, is that the center of the bundle of six strips will nestle = fits at the outside corners of the flats, and ensure less danger of = makes perfect sense.Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute =angle as a regular option on his Hand Planing Mill.cheers, = Reed ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500-- from Leessinker@aol.com Thu May 27 10:25:34 1999 Subject: H-I "Beaver" Greetings to all,Anyone specialize in the recording or collecting of H-I rods?Recently picked up a H-I "Beaver" , both tips delaminated and figured the practice of gluing and binding would be good practice for the future.I've read of H-I's "Beaverkill " but nothing of a "Beaver". Mr Sinclair"s book didn't refer to it, did someone make a mistake at the factory?The writing on the rod is very clear and no trace of a faded "kill".Any Ideas? Thanks Dewayne Davisonleessinker@aol.com from chris@artistree.com Thu May 27 10:42:14 1999 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Of course I was attempting to be facetious. Looks like I better stick tobuilding rods. Best Regards,Chris WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Chris, Yes, indeed, that's a known (but less regularly practiced) technique.The idea, of course, is that the center of the bundle of six stripswill nestle more neatly together, allowing the glue to flow moreuniformly between the strips. The reduced angle should also producetighter fits at the outside corners of the flats, and ensure lessdanger of "starving" the joints within. To me, the idea makesperfect sense. Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute angle as a regular optionon his Hand Planing Mill. cheers, Bill from madcap@u.washington.edu Thu May 27 13:01:27 1999 (madcap@dante26.u.washington.edu ESMTP id LAA37524 ESMTP idLAA102568;Thu, 27 May 1999 11:01:22 -0700 Subject: bronze silk thread Does anyone know where I could get my hands on some bronze silk thread? Jun from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 15:19:33 1999 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Sure, its called cheating. Chris Wohlford wrote: You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed from anglport@con2.com Thu May 27 15:38:11 1999 Subject: Re: H-I "Beaver" Dewayne,Just how short IS the butt section? At 4" longer than the handle itcouldBE a Beaverkill *BSEG*!Art At 11:23 AM 5/27/99 EDT, Leessinker@aol.com wrote:Greetings to all,Anyone specialize in the recording or collecting of H-I rods?Recently picked up a H-I "Beaver" , both tips delaminated and figured the practice of gluing and binding would be good practice for the future.I've read of H-I's "Beaverkill " but nothing of a "Beaver". Mr Sinclair"s book didn't refer to it, did someone make a mistake at the factory?The writing on the rod is very clear and no trace of a faded "kill".Any Ideas? Thanks Dewayne Davisonleessinker@aol.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 15:54:49 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid can becured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes for largestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum curingtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making it powderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to be alot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from tklein@amgen.com Thu May 27 16:23:28 1999 smtp.amgen.com via smap (3.2) Subject: On Topic? Can somebody let me know if questions related to the "business" ofrodmakingare considered an acceptable topic on this list? (Federal excise taxes,sales and use taxes, etc.) ---Tim from stpete@netten.net Thu May 27 18:07:26 1999 Subject: [Fwd: What have I missed?] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DE5166C4651 This is my third attempt at joining the list. Have I done somethingbad? Am I vanquished from the list? Exiled? Help! Rick C. --------------5DE5166C4651 Subject: What have I missed? I've been bumped a couple of times over the last days and have missedmuch of the discussion. Any good fights going on? Seriously, Wil Gatliff and I have been trying to figure out how to run alathe (7x10 mini lathe, there's quite a few good sites re: this machineand an e- group, too) and have been trying to figure out how one makesferrules. Seems like Bailey Woods prices are quite reasonable at thismoment. Rick C. --------------5DE5166C4651-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Thu May 27 19:30:41 1999 Subject: RE: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed to rememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my different timesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation with theURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250* andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum curingtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from Canerods@aol.com Thu May 27 20:25:47 1999 Subject: Re: greenfield lathe Tony, Try attending the church of Our Lady of Perpetual Pocket Water! Don B. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 21:05:09 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Urac cures up in minutes with heat and any longer in the oven will notmake theadhesive any more cured!I tend not to get advice from anyone but the manufacturers of the productIintend to use and that way you cannot blame anyone. Too much heatproduces aweak joint and if it does not give way now it could very well do so in thefuture.All it takes is a phone call to Cyanamid and ask them to fax you theinformationon Urac.These are industrial adhesives that require certain conditions to be met tobecompletely successful.150deg from what I can remember is within the temperature range of therecommended curing temperature and the extra time in the oven does noharm.If you put your test pieces in a cold oven and then set the themostat to300 thepiece would have cured before 300 deg was reached. A butt section orthick testpiece placed in a 300 deg oven stand a good chance of curing before it getsto300. A tip of a tip section will be ruined because of the lack of mass, theadhesive will just turn to powder. Try itTerry "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from jczimny@dol.net Thu May 27 21:41:31 1999 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep it above50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid It can> > becured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from saltwein@swbell.net Fri May 28 07:00:19 1999 gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net HAA10783 Subject: Urac cure time Mr. Zimny, Do you have any ideas as to the cure time of Urac without a catalyst?Would it befeasible to use it this way? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove 50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going tobealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri May 28 08:27:18 1999 Fri, 28 May 1999 09:27:09 -0400 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test =_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560 I have been using Titebond II for a long, long time now, but I am going tochange to Urac because I understand that the glue will hold up better underthe heat required for straightening a section. I'm hoping that is so. ButI am interested in this thread on the heat-curing of Urac. So, is it the case that the heat-cure process does nothing to enhance anyof properties of Urac, and is only used to accelerate the curing process? If so, then I wonder why one would bother with heat-curing at all? I have always letmy glued-up sections dry (cure) for a couple weeks anyway. Cheers, Bill ----------From: J. C. Zimny Cc: 'TERENCE ACKLAND' ; 'Rodmakers' Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue TestDate: Thursday, May 27, 1999 7:44 PM Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm stillplayingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's goingto bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm notascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at anydiameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He gottheoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would failfirst.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failedat250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560 I have been using TitebondII = understand that the glue will hold up better under the heat required for = is it the case that the heat-cure process does nothing to enhance any of =properties of Urac, and is only used to accelerate the curing process? = if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin it = F during this process, it will cure. It will not show any = = = = = diameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum = = = Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560-- from RVenneri@aol.com Fri May 28 14:02:09 1999 Subject: Help! Does any one have Dan Hall's email address I seem to have lost it.ThanksBob VVenneri's 21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882Rvenneri@aol.comhttp://members.aol.com/Venneris/home.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri May 28 14:23:23 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AD59C5000DA; Fri, 28 May 1999 15:24:09 EDT Subject: Re: Help! Bob,I just fished with Dan last night. His email address is:djhall@cisco.comBest regards,Reed RVenneri@aol.com wrote: Does any one have Dan Hall's email address I seem to have lost it.ThanksBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882Rvenneri@aol.comhttp://members.aol.com/Venneris/home.html from stuart.tod@virgin.net Fri May 28 15:50:03 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP Fri, 28 May 1999 21:50:09 +0100 Subject: Re: On Topic? Posssibly, but only if you can make them really, really interesting toall the non - US subscribers! Thanks in breathless anticipation, Stuart (in the UK) Klein, Tim wrote: Can somebody let me know if questions related to the "business" ofrodmakingare considered an acceptable topic on this list? (Federal excise taxes,sales and use taxes, etc.) ---Tim from rafick@fwi.com Fri May 28 16:39:42 1999 Subject: re. business boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440 I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every =thread is of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on =rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impression that any =discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440 I belong to other fishing lists as = rodmakers and not every thread is of interest to every lister, not = haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the = that any discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I not. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440-- from thardy@foxinternet.net Fri May 28 16:50:43 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0700 Subject: carbide plane edge I don't remember who was doing this, but a while backsomeone was offering the chance to get in on having acarbide cutting edge welded onto a regular plane blade.Is it still possible to get in on this? Sounds veryinteresting.Thanks,Tom Hardy from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Fri May 28 17:08:50 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Grayrock Camping Is there a group reservation number for people attending the GrayrockGathering and camping at Hartwick Pines SP? Brian from cbogart@shentel.net Fri May 28 17:15:57 1999 "rafick@fwi.com" boundary="_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_"Subject: Re: re. business --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_ Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text--- I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every threadis of interestto every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impressionthat anydiscussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_ Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text---From: R.A.FickDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:07 - 0500 Ibelong to otherfishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every thread is of interest toevery lister,not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already amunder theimpression that any discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I thinknot. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri May 28 17:50:33 1999 Subject: RE: Urac cure time About heat curing URAC. I called today to find the times. 28 minutes at140* or 12 minutes at 160* will fully cure. My experiment was to test the strength of glues cured at differenttemperatures. The times I chose are not necessarily what I would use in arod nor are they probably good for the rod or glue. But, I was verysurprised that the URAC withstood the temperatures that it did, not themention the fact that the epoxies failed before it. Incidentally, to test the sections, I preheated my home oven (which Iassumehas a 50* or so temp. swing) and put in the sections on a cookie sheet. Tocheck each one I removed the cookie sheet and flexed each section. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 -----Original Message-----From: Steve Trauthwein [SMTP:saltwein@swbell.net]Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: Urac cure time Mr. Zimny, Do you have any ideas as to the cure time of Urac without a catalyst?Would it befeasible to use it this way? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove 50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not)that isused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many,manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentationwiththeURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at250* andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm stillplayingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid temperature.It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understandingoftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's goingto bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'mnot ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old thatwas airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces wereflamed.I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at anydiameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He gottheoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC wou