regular ferrule be used (stress curve in Taper Archives uses a regularferrule in calculation). Difference between stations either side offerrule point is .041 (value at 42" I calculate to be .202 or 12.9/64,so 13/64 standard ferrule should fit). If a stepped ferrule is the wayto go how does one order size?CheersCraig from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat May 22 11:01:52 1999 Subject: Forwarded messageColumbine shootings List,this forwarded message was sent to the list by mistake and was onlymeant for one person on the list. If this upset some of you too bad. I still stand on my first point of keeping this related to rod building and related subjects besides Ginke and his pointless pursuit of a $300.00 bamboo rod. If youare worried this will cut into your rod sales then maybe that is all your rods are worth. K-Mart knows their limit. Guys like Wayne and Terry AcklandEtc have no worry about this. I know I just pissed off a bunch of people but keep your remarks to me about this off the list and if you have somethingto say send directly to me so the list is not clogged up.(BRET) from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat May 22 23:19:32 1999 Internet MailServer sims.3.5.1999.03.02.17.58.p5)with SMTP id forrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;Sun, Subject: test from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 23 07:28:32 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id AAA05506 for; Mon, 24 May 199900:28:25 +1200 Subject: steel forms I decided that as some " real " rodmakers were visiting during theSouthernHemisphere gathering I had better make myself some "real" steel formsratherthen the slightly battered wooden ones I have been using . The obtaining of the steel was not too hard , ( even though the suppliersaid they would cut the 12' section in half for transport and then cut itinto two sections 5'11" long and kindly included the 2" bit from the middlewith the package !!!). The using of the dowling jig for the drilling ofholes went ok , only one went out of alignment due to the jig shifting , andthe taping of the holes ( first time I had done that )did not seem nearly asscary as some of the horror stories suggested. The cutting of the grooves takes a hell of a long time , but using TomPenrose's method I have almost finished the tip side and it seems to lookfairly right so far . However , tonight as I admired my handywork with the pull screws done uptight , I noticed that at several of the stations I could see a very faintline of light through the groove indicating the screw was not pulling thebars completely together , even though the screws were up tight. I checked Are there any suggestions such as steel twisting etc as to the cause . Also, will it matter ? Iank from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 08:45:45 1999 "iank@nelson.planet.org.nz" Subject: Re: steel forms Ian The only thing that matters and affects the strips is the slope of thegroove. Check the consistency of the slope - with your forms tightened down,take your depth gauge and start at the tip end and start at the first station andgo down the form. Do two things take the reading at each station (you may want torecord these always getgreater - if the reading goes smaller, even for a couple of inches - youhave a major problem. This means you can set the form and get a greater dimension atthat place. I have seen this in one of the forms a student of mine brought toclass - theslopewas off between stations and lo and behold the tip section of the rod hehad made ended with a slight bulge over 3" - this will affect your rod performance.This is oneofthe primary reasons I check all forms now in my class (you would besurprised at what we have found in forms). Chris On Mon, 24 May 1999 00:28:25 +1200, Ian Kearney wrote: I decided that as some " real " rodmakers were visiting during theSouthernHemisphere gathering I had better make myself some "real" steel formsratherthen the slightly battered wooden ones I have been using . The obtaining of the steel was not too hard , ( even though the suppliersaid they would cut the 12' section in half for transport and then cut itinto two sections 5'11" long and kindly included the 2" bit from themiddlewith the package !!!). The using of the dowling jig for the drilling ofholes went ok , only one went out of alignment due to the jig shifting ,andthe taping of the holes ( first time I had done that )did not seem nearly asscary as some of the horror stories suggested. The cutting of the grooves takes a hell of a long time , but using TomPenrose's method I have almost finished the tip side and it seems to lookfairly right so far . However , tonight as I admired my handywork with the pull screws doneuptight , I noticed that at several of the stations I could see a very faintline of light through the groove indicating the screw was not pulling thebars completely together , even though the screws were up tight. Ichecked Are there any suggestions such as steel twisting etc as to the cause .Also, will it matter ? Iank from briansr@point-net.com Sun May 23 08:54:04 1999 0000 Subject: Fw: whale Subject: whale I wonder if those idiots that killed the Grey Whale last in the interest of"tradition" will be charged. I hope the assholes choke on the blubber!Brian from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun May 23 12:22:25 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 13:22:20 -0400 Subject: Re: canes and reels =_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160 Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most ofus don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or thebreaking system. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rathermorerelevant. offered reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- theOrvisCFO, the Hardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offerreels coming in around the three ounce zipcode. Folks talk about the need for a "balanced" rod and reel, but I believethis idea to be entirely bogus. Nothing kills the action of an otherwiseexcellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and ounces count enormously. For the life of me, Idon't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels outthere competing for the "high-end" market. There is no reason why a reelthat is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than 3.25ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up with anythingin excess of that. Cheers, Bill From: Sue K. Subject: canes and reelsDate: Monday, May 17, 1999 6:16 AM At 08:44 PM 5/16/1999 EDT, you wrote:Bret,I have a Dennison reel that I use on my five footone weight. It does work great. I got mine last year. A friendpicked it up for me at some place up in the Adorondacks. It was $75.00 . I don't know if they are still available anywere? I'll keep my eyes open for you. Interesting, and maybe this thread would best be servedover on Wayne's new 'chat' area instead of here, but letme go for it anyway. Remember, I'm the one with the 'couple of canes', my favoritebeing a little 6'6" 3 wt. Put a little Hardy FLYWEIGHT onit, and in my opinion, it matches perfectly. Both in holdingthe line, and pleasing looks that "work" with the cane ! Let me try the question out then, cane builders/owners areoften enamored with not only the cane, but the hardware,wrappings, and I suppose the reel and line that will complimentthe cane. Curious if there IS a preferred cane reel out there ? Just to give you an example, I have a little ryall and a little rossthat don't 'fit' aesthetically with the cane. That's the only wayI can put it. But that little Hardy ? mmmm sweet ! even if she does make a tad bit o' noise *S*------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160 Sue,I don't knowthat = needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most of us =don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or the = rather more relevant.For me, the most important feature (aside = from overall high quality offered by any of a dozen current = reels coming in around the three ounce zipcode.Folks talk about = of an otherwise excellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and = why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels out there competing = =a reel that is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more =than 3.25 ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up = EDT, = have = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA51E.D394D160-- from sats@gte.net Sun May 23 13:12:20 1999 Subject: Hardy for parts? The guy at the flea marked I stop by from time to time has what's left of ahardy. Mostly spool and insides. Ther frame's been broken sometime inthepast. I don't know the make or model. If you're interested, contact me off list... Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from brookie@frii.com Sun May 23 13:36:13 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels well now, on the weekend, I see quiet more than normal on the RodMakersList. All RodM. must be making, or in a pew asking that they do it well ! *G* Messr Harms says what I could have said and foresaken the post ( andsubsequentreplies by others ), to the delight of Sir Seth and others. Indeed, reelsareto hold the line and to be lightweight. On another flyfishing listserv Ibelong to, the masters of the gate brag on ability to cast line without areel. Always gotta be some show-offs in every crowd, eh ? But the pointisthere. The reel is to hold the line. Me personally ? The hole-er the better ( apologies to Harry B. for that badpun ). Reels like the Hardy's that have 'holes', and less weight ARE great. Not only for the cane, but for the gr**hite rods. Seems logical to me. After all, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, ...snip... offered by any of a dozen current manufacturers), is light weight. I was fascinated by all the suggestions and heretofore ( to me ) unknownreelsthough. Gave pause to reflect that perhaps those little Hardys at theirpricearen't THAT bad when compared to some of the other reels out there ! I do think in summary that the beauty of a cane rod though should be'balanced'with a beautiful reel. And in my mind, the Hardy does just that ! with that,suecolorado from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun May 23 14:16:32 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 15:16:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories =_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40 All, tip can hold a tight, open loop. But if it does, I guess it does. . . To my thinking, any taper that becomes concave at any point along the wayis a taper that has, in effect, turned "inside out." And that means youhave created an area, not of strength, but of weakness. You have created a"hinge" in the taper, and I just don't understand how that can be goodunder any circumstances. The only way to compensate for such a built-inweakness must be to add mass to the overall diameter (so you wouldn'tnotice the weakness). Well, either that, or just decide that the rod is Cheers, Bill ----------From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Re: Rod taper theoriesDate: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:26 AM I was setting my forms last night for a Dickerson 8013 taper, which I hope to have ready for the Hex hatch in a few weeks (gotta get going, I know; the hatch might be early this year.)Anyway, I thought I would look at tip dimensions with respect tothe recent discussion of tight loops. Bill Harm's idea, if I understand it correctly, is that the dimensionof the final foot or so of the rod should be Convex (the steepest taperclosest to the tip): Dim | *| *| *| *| *| *| *| *|-+----+----+----+---- +0 5 10 15 Inches from Tip The 8013 taper (the second version from Jack Howell's book) lookssomethinglike this curve, with the steepest taper close to the tip: Dist Dim Difference---------------------------0 0.054 5 0.083 0.029 10 0.097 0.014 15 0.112 0.015 Now Darryl's tight loop tip taper (see posting of Dec 2, 1998) is just the opposite (ie a Concave taper), with the steepest taper away from the tip: Dist Dim Difference-----------------------------------0 .068 5 .072 .004 10 .090 .018 15 .110 .020 I'm not sure how to reconcile these two. My gut reaction is that I like the Convex better than Concave, but I don't have enough experienceto judge wisely. Any takers?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40 All,For the life of =me, I don't know how a rod with a CONCAVE section near the tip can hold = To my thinking, any taper that becomes concave at any point =along the way is a taper that has, in effect, turned "inside = =the taper, and I just don't understand how that can be good under any =circumstances. The only way to compensate for such a built-in weakness =must be to add mass to the overall diameter (so you wouldn't notice the = = = taper = = opposite (ie a Concave taper), with the steepest taper away from the = like the Convex better than Concave, but I don't have enough = Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA52E.C55F7A40-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun May 23 14:52:12 1999 Subject: Broken rod section RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turned and smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 16:45:38 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret Why don't you just repair the break - good practice in case it happensin the future on another rod. Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 15:50:11 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sun May 23 17:04:43 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels On Sun, 23 May 1999, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most ofus don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or thebreaking system. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rathermorerelevant. offered reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- theOrvisCFO, the Hardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offerreels coming in around the three ounce zipcode. Only these?????? Think again! Abel TR-LT, 3.1 ozLoop TLP 1, 3.25 ozWaterWorks P.1, 2.9 ozRoss CO-0, 3.3 ozAYR FP-2.4, 2.4 ozHardy St. George Junior, 3.25 oz.Forbes Avon 2.5", 2.6 oz Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com from cbogart@shentel.net Sun May 23 17:47:43 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not to rushanythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember the old saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is that themasterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection. Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are working onrods.Bret from rmoon@ida.net Sun May 23 18:17:05 1999 0000 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section ChrisSome of the very best advice ever made on this list. Everytime I rush Iscrew up EVERY TIME Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun May 23 21:00:22 1999 "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section accidents happen, if they did not there would be no insurance companies.Just make a new tip, not a big deal. If you had broken the tip of a Classicbelonging toacustomer it would have would have been a little more serious. Chris Bogart wrote: Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not torush anythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember theold saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is thatthe masterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection.Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are workingon rods.Bret from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 23 21:10:12 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id OAA01393; Mon, 24 May 1999 14:09:48 +1200 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Broken rod section Well Bret, I found a new way to ruin a tip last week also. We got a new pup a fewmonths ago and were so please to see she seemed to prefer to chew bits ofwood rather then shoes , plastic cords ( including the internet connectinglead ) hoses , irrigation fittings etc which the old dog had a liking for . You can guess what happened as the pup was happily sitting under theworkbench last week and I was ignoring her activities. One very chewed rodtip!!! It is just as well the pup has some other very attractive attributes. Iank At 03:50 PM 23/05/99 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell for you? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sun May 23 22:59:37 1999 Subject: RE: Broken rod section I broke a butt section in the lathe once. Fashioning the grip withsandpaper when the sandpaper pinched the rod. Well, the rod stopped butthelathe didn't. Snapped it right above the handle. One of those times whenyou just sit and stare at the rod turning in the lathe saying to yourself"that didn't just happen, did it?" Found out not to wrap the sandpaperaround the rod section but to hold it with two hands. After contemplating whether to rebuild the section or make a splice Ichoseto rebuild. I guess I could have made a splice and fished it hard to testhow strong a splice really is. The worst thing about breaking the rod isnot the time but the fact that I used the best 12 pieces of cork I had! Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 -----Original Message-----From: Grhghlndr@aol.com [SMTP:Grhghlndr@aol.com]Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 1:50 PM RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Broken rod section Did you ever have one of those days when everything went to hell foryou? well today was mine. I was finishing up a 6'3" rod today when I turnedand smashed one of the tips into the work bench SOB. So now my sons threepiece two tip rod is now a 3 piece one tip. I will take this as a lesson in patience and one learned to slow down when I am working on something. All is not lost though as I can recycle this broken section into dubbing needles for fly tying. I know I am not the first to do this and I wont be the last but it sure is frustating as hell and I hope that this savessomeone else from doing this.Bret from djk762@hotmail.com Mon May 24 00:00:46 1999 Sun, 23 May 1999 21:57:15 PDT Subject: Broken Rod Sections Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly large Northern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches in strong current, Broke the mid just below the ferrule of my Leonarnd 501/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in a timely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson in this my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboo gods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon May 24 07:38:46 1999 Subject: Re: canes and reels boundary="=====================_3977730==_.ALT" --=====================_3977730==_.ALT Right on, Cheers Bill. Why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for a reelthatdoesn't "sing" and weighs a ton is beyond me (I WILL take exception to thePeerless and its knockoffs, however). Everytime I start to purchase one ofthenew "upscale" reels I back off, go fondle a Hardy reel, and then purchaseyetanother CFO.J. Snider.At 01:19 PM 5/23/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another. Afterall, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, since most of usdon't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or the breakingsystem. If you DO, however, then the question becomes rather morerelevant. offered reducesyour choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- the Orvis CFO, theHardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson. Only these, offer reelscomingin around the three ounce zipcode. Folks talk about the need for a "balanced" rod and reel, but I believethis excellent rod more than unnecessary weight -- and ounces count enormously. For the life of me,Idon't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce reels outthere competing for the "high-end" market. There is no reason why areelthat is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than3.25ounces, and I don't understand why fly fishers would put up withanything inexcess of that. Cheers, Bill From: Sue K. Subject: canes and reelsDate: Monday, May 17, 1999 6:16 AM At 08:44 PM 5/16/1999 EDT, you wrote:Bret,I have a Dennison reel that I use on my five footone weight. It does work great. I got mine last year. A friendpicked it up for me at some place up in the Adorondacks. It was $75.00 . I don't know if they are still available anywere? I'll keep my eyes open for you. Interesting, and maybe this thread would best be servedover on Wayne's new 'chat' area instead of here, but letme go for it anyway. Remember, I'm the one with the 'couple of canes', my favoritebeing a little 6'6" 3 wt. Put a little Hardy FLYWEIGHT onit, and in my opinion, it matches perfectly. Both in holdingthe line, and pleasing looks that "work" with the cane ! Let me try the question out then, cane builders/owners areoften enamored with not only the cane, but the hardware,wrappings, and I suppose the reel and line that will complimentthe cane. Curious if there IS a preferred cane reel out there ? Just to give you an example, I have a little ryall and a little rossthat don't 'fit' aesthetically with the cane. That's the only wayI can put it. But that little Hardy ? mmmm sweet ! even if she does make a tad bit o' noise *S* --=====================_3977730==_.ALT Right on, Cheers Bill. Why anyone would pay hundreds of dollars for areel that doesn't "sing" and weighs a ton is beyond me (I WILLtake exception to the Peerless and its knockoffs, however). Everytime Istart to purchase one of the new "upscale" reels I back off, gofondle a Hardy reel, and then purchase yet another CFO.J. Snider.At 01:19 PM 5/23/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, After all, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line, sincemost of us don't get into trout large enough to burn out the bearings or rather more relevant. And that reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers -- zipcode. kills the action of an otherwise excellent rod more than me, I don't understand why there are so many four, five and six ounce a 3-5 weight rod should weigh more than 3.25 ounces, and I don'tunderstand why fly fishers would put up with anything in excess ofthat. Cheers, Bill rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu canes and reels have a Dennison reel that I use on my five foot last year. A friend Adorondacks. still available any Hardy FLYWEIGHT on holding ! compliment there ? ross way *S* --=====================_3977730==_.ALT-- from cotner@novagate.com Mon May 24 09:15:37 1999 Subject: Test - please delete Just a test to see whether I've been bumped or everyone's out fishing from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 11:31:17 1999 9:35:06 PDT Subject: RE: Phillipson 5 wt. Craig, I made a rod based on that taper. I used a standard size 13 ferrule. It is a very fast action rod. A very different feel from other rods I've made, but I like it. Most of the action is in the top half, as it has a swelled butt. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from gord@teleport.com Mon May 24 12:56:55 1999 0000 (216.26.7.67) Subject: Taper datafile format I have a dim memory of someone asking about a uniform taper file format been back in '96. Were any standards agreed upon then or at any timesince? Cheers,Gord from castafly@gbis.com Mon May 24 13:33:02 1999 Subject: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0 I am interested in building my first rod, which will be an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 =wt. I really like the later Wright & McGill Granger rods, but I am =having trouble finding the right taper. I have found two tapers on =internet taper archives, but they vary from eachother considerably--so =much so that I am hesitant to use either one of them. I also understand =one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger tapers, but I don't =have access to that issue. Can anyone out there list this taper for me? = Also, if anyone out there has the taper for an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a =similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a little stronger tip) I =would appreciate any information you might have. Thanks in advance, Jeff Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0 I am interested in building myfirst = found two tapers on internet taper archives, but they vary from = considerably--so much so that I am hesitant to use either one of = also understand one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger = Also, if anyone out there has the = 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a = stronger tip) I would appreciate any information you might =have. Thanks in advance, Jeff =Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BEA5D9.436177E0-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 14:04:30 1999 12:08:20 PDT Subject: RE: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 Jeff, I looked at the three 8 1/2' W&M tapers listed on Rodmakers. from what I've read, Granger tapers are categorized by rod scale weight, and the scale weight determination is taken from the tube label. Depending onwhat point and what method was used to weigh the rod, who knows whether the scale wt. designations on the labels are spot on or "close". I think with the 8 1/2' as well as the 9' rods there were at least three, maybe four different weights, from 4 3/4oz. to 5 5/8oz, I'm going on memory here. The three rods on Rodmakers are probably different tapers. The one Daryl measured is clearly from a heavier wt. rod and he lists it as a 7 wt. The one Tom measured is lighter and he listed it as a 5 wt. I'm just speculating on all this. It's also possible that at different era's and with various bevelers and processes etc. maybe there was somedifferences in tapers of the same weight. I think they call this refinement. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from djk762@hotmail.com Mon May 24 15:00:15 1999 Mon, 24 May 1999 12:59:42 PDT Subject: Broken Rod Sections Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly large Northern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches in strong current, Broke the mid just below the top ferrule of my Leonarnd50 1/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in a timely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson in this my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboo gods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon May 24 15:25:38 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id PAA24461 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id PAA17941 for ; Mon, 24 May 1999 Subject: Re: Taper datafile format Gord, Wayne C brought this issue up last December. I agree with Waynethat it would be a "good thing" if all the various programs couldshare data files (I don't know how Jerry F or Bruce C feel), but it didn't get much farther than this. There are several little stumbling blocks to making this a reality.Individually they're not much but put them together and you have a big stumbling block. I know that the files from Wayne's programand my Web hexrod are quite different in ways that really reflect the logic of our programs. If there are any software designers out there who want to discussthis further, we can probably do it off- list.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Mon, 24 May 1999, Gordon Johnson wrote: I have a dim memory of someone asking about a uniform taper fileformat been back in '96. Were any standards agreed upon then or at any timesince? Cheers,Gord from tdapple@execpc.com Mon May 24 17:27:39 1999 0500 bypop05.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA01326 for; Mon, 24 May 199917:27:29 - 0500 Subject: Granger Custom boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0 I came upon a rod. It say's Granger Custom Model 8553, HCF#7-GBG#8. It =has a nickel silver uplocking realseat and basically looks brand new. =Could anyone give me any info on it, including what HCF and GBG mean. =Thanxs Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better" P.S. I know what granger is, just never heard of the model. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0 I came upon a rod. It say's Granger Custom Model = HCF#7-GBG#8. It has a nickel silver uplocking realseat and basically = new. Could anyone give me any info on it, including what HCF and GBG = Thanxs Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better" P.S. I know what granger is, just never heard of the= model. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEA60A.DBEBCCA0-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon May 24 18:00:38 1999 16:04:31 PDT Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653 means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number is preceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Since it is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix. GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't go that route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know if they let the customer pick a color other then some of the standard Granger colors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares to other 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7 line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from dpeaston@wzrd.com Mon May 24 18:21:03 1999 Subject: RE: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 At 11:51 AM 5/24/1999 PDT, CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote:Jeff, I looked at the three 8 1/2' W&M tapers listed on Rodmakers. from what I've read, Granger tapers are categorized by rod scale weight, and the scale weight determination is taken from the tube label. Depending onwhat point and what method was used to weigh the rod, who knows whetherthe scale wt. designations on the labels are spot on or "close". I think with the 8 1/2' as well as the 9' rods there were at least three, maybe four different weights, from 4 3/4oz. to 5 5/8oz, I'm going on memory here. The three rods on Rodmakers are probably different tapers. The one Daryl measured is clearly from a heavier wt. rod and he lists it as a 7 wt. The one Tom measured is lighter and he listed it as a 5 wt. I'm just speculating on all this. It's also possible that at different era's and with various bevelers and processes etc. maybe there was somedifferences in tapers of the same weight. I think they call this refinement. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu Hi Jeff, The 8.5' Grange Aristocrat taper on the Rod Makers web site is taken frommy rod. I did the measuring and sent the results to Tom who made theniftystress curves. My rod weighs 5 oz. with grip and reel seat. The followingtable is taken from Dick Spurr's Classic Cane value guide for GoodwinGranger and Wright McGill rods,http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/canecoun/VALUE.htm : Aristocrat7' 3 oz. Two-Piece $11007*' 3 oz. Model GA7633 $8508' 4 oz. Model GA8040 $7508*' 4* oz. Model GA8642 $4509' 5 oz. Model GA9050 $3509* 5* oz. Model GA9653 $30010' 6* oz. Model GA1062 $325 I have no label on my tube and therefore I do not know the GA # forcertain. My guess is that it is a GA8642 because it is a 8.5' rod. The 53(5 3/4 oz) is not found amongst the aristocrats or the victorys. The rodmust therefor be built on a custom blank. My rod is clearly on the lightside of 5 wt. (does best with a Wulff TT 5). Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tdapple@execpc.com Mon May 24 19:08:05 1999 0500 bypop02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA32230 for; Mon, 24 May 199919:08:01 - 0500 Subject: Re: Granger Custom Chris, The wraps are gold, I couldn't tell you the taper, I don't have the tools have a friend who may have a micrometer I could measure it with, tell mewhere on the rod to measure and I'll let you know. Right now I have to gopick up another rod. My mom met a guy at the hospital and talked for a fewand he just called me telling me my mom told him I had a thing for bambooflyrods. So he's going to give me his. Imagine that. I'm gonna have to takehim out for a beer or something. Can't wait to see what it is ( I hope it'snot a club ).See y'all Tim Apple"Bamboo is Better"----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number ispreceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Sinceit is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix.GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't gothat route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know ifthey let the customer pick a color other then some of the standardGrangercolors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares toother 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon May 24 19:37:32 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0CE222A008A; Mon, 24 May 1999 20:37:34 EDT Subject: Re: Broken Rod Sections David,I doubt it was the matter of horsing the fish. When breaks occur at aferrule, especially an upper mid that has a snake just below it, thesuspectwould be Rot. A little water under the winds after the varnish cracks attheferrules and in no time you have good conditions for fungal growth. (Waxmayprevent this, at least that is my hope.) Just one man's theory.Best regards,Reed David Kashuba wrote: Took off early from work Friday- fishing the lower Yuba - fairly largeNorthern Ca. tailwater. Wild trout rising to dries - 12 - 18 inches instrong current, Broke the mid just below the top ferrule of my Leonarnd501/2 DF. Probably too light a rod to pull these fish out of the current in atimely manner. Just a stupid thing to do to a fine rod.Difficult lesson inthis my first season fishing bamboo. Will have to make amends to thebamboogods. David KashubaFair Oaks, CA. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from robert.kope@cwix.com Mon May 24 21:10:02 1999 with SMTP id forRODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu; Tue, 25 May 1999 02:09:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40 The two tapers listed in the rodmakers archives differ quite a bit form =each other as well as from the one in the taper archives. As far as I =know, Granger only made one model of 8 1/2 footer (except for custom =orders) and that was the 8642. According to Sinclair, that was =designated a 5 wt. I understand that their tapers did change over time =or were "refined", and tended to become faster in later years. The =taper in the Planing Form doesn't bear too much resemblance to any in =the archives, but here it is: 0 0625 07310 09215 10920 12225 13730 15035 16840 18745 20650 22055 23260 24065 24570 26475 28380 29085 30690 31895 371100 380105 380 The rod is identified as an Aristocrat belonging to the collection of =Mr. Dana Gray of Townsend, Maine and was measured without varnish. -- Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: Jeff Ferguson Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:37 AMSubject: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 I am interested in building my first rod, which will be an 8 1/2' =3/2 5 wt. I really like the later Wright & McGill Granger rods, but I =am having trouble finding the right taper. I have found two tapers on =internet taper archives, but they vary from eachother considerably--so =much so that I am hesitant to use either one of them. I also understand =one of the Planing Form issues listed some Granger tapers, but I don't =have access to that issue. Can anyone out there list this taper for me? = Also, if anyone out there has the taper for an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with =a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe with a little stronger tip) =I would appreciate any information you might have. Thanks in advance, Jeff Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40 The two tapers listed in the = any in the archives, but here it is: 062 073 092 109 122 137 150 168 187 206 220 232 240 245 264 283 290 306 318 371 380 380 The rod is identified as an Aristocrat belonging to = collection of Mr. Dana Gray of Townsend, Maine and was measured varnish. -- Robert Kope -----Original = =RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, May 24, 1999 11:37 AMSubject: Taper For = 1/2' 3/2I am interested in building my= McGill Granger rods, but I am having trouble finding the right = I have found two tapers on internet taper archives, but they vary = eachother considerably--so much so that I am hesitant to use either = Also, if anyone out there has = an 8 1/2' 3/2 5 wt with a similar action to the Grangers (but maybe = have. Thanks inadvance, Ferguson ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BEA619.39D1DA40-- from hhholland@erols.com Tue May 25 07:09:58 1999 Subject: Re: Granger Custom The GBG rating is for a DT-8, and the HCF, as Chris points out is for aWF-7. Unusual, don't you think? Most rods today that have a two-linerating -- say 5/6 -- go the opposite way. The lower line -- the 5 weightinthe example, is for a double taper, while the higher (the #6) is for aweight-forward. Thus, a rod listed as a 5/6 would be for a DT-5 or a WF-6.The Granger Custom goes the other way. Most bamboo rods I have knownwerequite comfortable handling two or three different line weights, but I findthis designation interesting.Regards,......Hank H. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Granger Custom Tim, The Custom name sounds like it was a special order. The model number8653means an 8 1/2' rod that weighed 5 3/4oz. Usually the model number ispreceded with two letters like GV which would mean Granger Victory. Sinceit is a Custom they apparently used a model number and no letter prefix.GC designated a Champion model and explains why they probably didn't gothat route. What color are the wraps? It would be interesting to know ifthey let the customer pick a color other then some of the standardGrangercolors. It would also be interesting to see how this taper compares toother 8 1/2' Granger models. The HCF is a silk line designation for a WF7line and the GBG is silk line also, but I'm not sure what size. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rafick@fwi.com Tue May 25 14:46:56 1999 Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! -----Original Message----- Subject: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! Please read the following carefully if you intend tostay online and continue using email: The last fewmonths have revealed an alarming trend in theGovernment of the United States attempting to quietlypush through legislation that will affect your use ofthe Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S.Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email usersout of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permitthe Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge onevery email delivered, by billing Internet ServiceProviders at source. The consumer would then bebilled in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyerRichard Stepp isworking without pay to prevent this legislation frombecoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming thatlost revenue due to the proliferation of email iscosting nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. Youmay have noticed their recent ad campaign "There isnothing like a letter". Since the average citizenreceived about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, thecost to the typical individual would be an additional50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, aboveand beyond their regular Internet costs. Note thatthis would be money paid directly to the U.S. PostalService for a service they do not even provide. Thewhole point of the Internet is democracy andnon-interference. If the federal government ispermitted to tamper with ourliberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knowswhere it will end. You are already paying anexorbitant price for snail mail because of bureacraticefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for aletter to bedelivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. PostalService is allowed to tinker with email, it will markthe end of the "free" Internet in the United States.One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a"twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on allInternet service" above and beyond the government'sproposed email charges. Note that most of the majornewspapers have ignored the story, the only exceptionbeing the Washingtonian which called the idea of emailsurcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch yourfreedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your list and tellyour friends and relatives to write to theircongressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and GormanAttorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. --WebTV-Mail-628228654-46-- from WLBond@cps-satx.com Tue May 25 15:33:24 1999 199920:36:36 UT Subject: RE: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! This is a hoax. See the rest of my message below. We outdoors peoplehaveenough problems with every half wit in the world attacking out sports forthe fun of it. Please verify your sources before you send more of theseout.BB I have received thousands of letters and e-mails from constituentsconcernedabout alleged per-minute charges to access the internet and about asupposedbill numbered 602P to tax the Internet. I would like to take thisopportunity to address both issues. Neither the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) nor Congress isplanningto impose a per- minute fee on access to the Internet. The controversy overthis issue arose from erroneous reports that the government waspreparing toregulate or tax the Internet. In fact, the issue under consideration was theway in which phone companies pay each other for traffic that is passedoverphone lines before ever reaching the Internet. In addition, on February 25, 1999, the FCC ruled that consumers who gainaccess to the Internet by dialing a seven digit number will not incur longdistance charges when they do so. In a statement, FCC chairman BillKennardnoted, "I want to say this as clearly as I can ... as long as I'm Chairmanof the Federal Communications Commission this agency will not regulatetheInternet." I have linked to a FCC factsheet with more information. Also, visitDepartment of Energy's Computer Incident Advisory Capability Hoax Pageforinformation about the false rumor spreading over the Internet.Regarding the false story you may have read regarding bill numbered 602P,nobill has been introduced to enact a surcharge on Internet services. Theinformation you and many others have received is completely false. Tosearchbills introduced in Congress, please visit the Library of Congress' THOMASweb site. I hope this information is helpful. ----------From: R.A.Fick[SMTP:rafick@fwi.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! -----Original Message-----From: Kerry Bridger Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:36 PMSubject: Fw: Fw: This could be for REAL!!!! Please read the following carefully if you intend tostay online and continue using email: The last fewmonths have revealed an alarming trend in theGovernment of the United States attempting to quietlypush through legislation that will affect your use ofthe Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S.Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email usersout of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permitthe Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge onevery email delivered, by billing Internet ServiceProviders at source. The consumer would then bebilled in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyerRichard Stepp isworking without pay to prevent this legislation frombecoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming thatlost revenue due to the proliferation of email iscosting nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. Youmay have noticed their recent ad campaign "There isnothing like a letter". Since the average citizenreceived about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, thecost to the typical individual would be an additional50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, aboveand beyond their regular Internet costs. Note thatthis would be money paid directly to the U.S. PostalService for a service they do not even provide. Thewhole point of the Internet is democracy andnon-interference. If the federal government ispermitted to tamper with ourliberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knowswhere it will end. You are already paying anexorbitant price for snail mail because of bureacraticefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for aletter to bedelivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. PostalService is allowed to tinker with email, it will markthe end of the "free" Internet in the United States.One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a"twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on allInternet service" above and beyond the government'sproposed email charges. Note that most of the majornewspapers have ignored the story, the only exceptionbeing the Washingtonian which called the idea of emailsurcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch yourfreedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your list and tellyour friends and relatives to write to theircongressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and GormanAttorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. --WebTV-Mail-628228654-46-- from brewer@teleport.com Tue May 25 17:39:08 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAu90a._; Tue May 2515:38:58 1999 Subject: Hoaxes, virus warnings, things that go bump... Please, please, please do not use this list for spreading so-called"helpful" warning messages that almost always turn out to be hoaxes. Ifyoureceive a warning that really concerns you, verify it with the properauthority. If it is true, then go annoy your pals with it but keep it offthe list. Forwarding these messages to the list makes you look like a fool.I don't know about you folks, but I have plenty of ways to do that myselfwithout filling up everyone else's mailbox. Let's keep this list concerned with the topic of bamboo rod building! My $.02 -Randy Brewer from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue May 25 19:08:28 1999 Subject: Re: NS Ferrules owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Tom, Some years ago I spliced a piece into the tip of an English (or Scottish) rod that was connected with electricians' tape over the beveled pieces. So, at least across the pond, somebody's marketing the beveled splice vs. thens ferrule.Regards,Hank. from BambooRods@aol.com Tue May 25 19:24:18 1999 Subject: Hex Hatch Just wondering if anyone knew or was willing to predict about the hexhatch year. Perhaps those in the area can provide input. Maybe Wayne or Steve. Any thoughts.doug from brookie@frii.com Tue May 25 19:51:03 1999 Subject: South Bend cork thumb recess RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed with the grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go in that thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on the cork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from Canerods@aol.com Tue May 25 20:03:04 1999 Subject: Re: Taper For Granger 8 1/2' 3/2 All, I've just acquired an 8'6" W&M Granger Special (wonder if it differs fromthe G.G. taper?) and I'm planning on stripping it soon. I'll post it's taper at that time. Don Burns from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue May 25 20:03:51 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I've seen a few Paul Youngs with thumb recess, one with two of 'em! The Winston Joan Wulf signature model has one,-my wife loves the grip so Ineed to make one on the blonde Driggs I keep meaning to make for her...However, it seems though that if the hand is locked into one position onthe handle, it can get tiresome. The ability to shift the hand along the grip throughout the day seems to alleviate this. Hey, the ol' cigar has made alot of folks happy for alot of years! Rob Hoffhines from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue May 25 20:07:40 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9B08F400BC; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:09:04 EDT Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 20:13:05 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id VAA28662; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:13:00 -0400 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Another comfort feature was the ventilated grip - PHY advocated thismodification for the serious angler that spent many hours on the stream -the venting was a 1/8" wide undercut at the middle of each 1/2" cork ring from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Tue May 25 20:21:32 1999 us.dialup.earthlink.net Subject: Re[2]: South Bend cork thumb recess boundary="=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM" --=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM I think I saw the Joan Wulff model T&T graphite rod with the thumbnotch..=.I also thought it felt pretty good... Darrell=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? --=PMail:=_0003@@WQMm0HLtNmYc30tp4PsM-- from brookie@frii.com Tue May 25 21:18:15 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess At 09:15 PM 5/25/99 -0400, you wrote:Another comfort feature was the ventilated grip- PHY advocated this modification for the seriousangler that spent many hours on the stream - theventing was a 1/8" wide undercut at the middle of each 1/2" cork ring Well now, this IS just like undergoing hypnosis ! The rod I saw tonight ? it had these vents too!I thought it was some sort of artsy 'design' . So,I'll ask the obvious question, if they were for"comfort", how was it supposed to work, function thusly ? The vents in the cork pieces allowed someflexing or ? mmmm from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Tue May 25 21:33:41 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: [Fwd: Broken rod section] boundary="------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192 And I'd add that trying to do work that requires attention when you'retoo tired or distracted is as bad as hurrying. I used to try to spendsome time every evening working on my current rod project. Now I don'teven try if "it's" not there. Brian --------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192 (envelope- from owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu) "Grhghlndr@aol.com" Subject: Re: Broken rod section Bret The hardest thing for people to learn is not to rush - every time youdo - youscrew up. There is no fast way to make a good rod. I've learned not to rushanythingin rodmaking. I can do certain things quickly through repetition, but Inever rush. Ialwaysleave myself more than enough time to do a step. Depends on how the break was, what you need to do - Remember the old saying: "The difference between an apprentice and a master is that themasterknows how to recover from his mistakes". Chris On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:56:41 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Chris,i was just thinking about trying to scarf anaother piece on the tipsection. Still this is a hard learned lesson to slow down when you are working onrods.Bret --------------12B5EEE302E9849E0308E192-- from chris@artistree.com Tue May 25 21:33:49 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I remember a recent discussion at the local angler's club about thethumb groove (similar to South Bend) on the Winston rod. This grip didnot get a very favorable review. The reason being somewhat dependent oncasting styles but mostly based on the "ergonomic" way to cast a rod. Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. The thumb isnot the strongest muscle in your hand. A lot of fisherman out hereprefer a "split grip" when casting the rod. With this your thumb hangsover to one side and your index finger is on the other side. The areabetween your thumb and index finger is used to push the rod. This areaof your hand is much stronger. It also helps keep a more controlledcasting stroke and is believed to reduce the chance of medical problems from repetitive stress. Just my $.02 Chris Wohlford "Sue K." wrote: Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from hiltonl@benzie.com Tue May 25 22:00:18 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id A45450A50142; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:02:44 EST Subject: Gripping inovations I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young. A friend of mine has a rod with that style of grip but has nevercommented on it, other than to say he thought it looked neat. A type of grip I've experimented with is a modified cigar shape but hasan indexing ridge on the underside of the rod in line with the guides,very similar to that of a golf club grip. . The idea was to allow meto feel where the rod was pointed while night fishing the hex hatch anddeer mousing at night. It does the job in my XXLg hands.Larry from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 22:31:41 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA07033; Tue, 25 May 1999 23:31:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Larry -You may or may not know it but Todd is the grandson of PHY(Paul HYoung)and uses much of the equipment that his grandfather did.- I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young from cattanac@wmis.net Tue May 25 22:49:56 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA08029 for ;Tue, 25 May 1999 Subject: Adding photos I realize that some of us see names and often times would like to put aface with it. Mark is doing a good job of showing mugs at TBFR mag.However,they are more staged and may not reflect the true 'character' - WELL -overthe years I have taken full advantage of the moments and have a ratherdeepcollection of mug shots and others and I am currently in the process of'showing all' - And I also promise that before I head to Grayrock thisweekend that HexRod ?? will be in place for downloading. Larry Hilton - I see that your server is Benzie.com - Hummmm - could thatbeassociated with the county name of the same from Michigan - you didmentionHEX - and there aren't that many locales for them - from harry37@epix.net Wed May 26 06:56:19 1999 SMTP id HAA15352; Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Larry Hilton wrote: I saw a style of ventilated grip on some rods made by maker Todd Young. A friend of mine has a rod with that style of grip but has nevercommented on it, other than to say he thought it looked neat. A type of grip I've experimented with is a modified cigar shape but hasan indexing ridge on the underside of the rod in line with the guides,very similar to that of a golf club grip. . The idea was to allow meto feel where the rod was pointed while night fishing the hex hatch anddeer mousing at night. It does the job in my XXLg hands.Larry Larry, I accidentally created a depressed grip when I was turning a grip andone or two cork rings got worked down farther than the rest. The resultwas a depression that worked out to be exactly where my middle fingerwould wrap around the handle. I was first really upset with myself forletting that happen, but as I casted the rod a bit, I found that it wasactually very comfortable. I'm now telling folks that I intentionallydesigned the handle with a middle finger depression to fit my righthand. I think that this will be the only rod handle that I will build thisway, though. I agree with the other posts--over time, it's easier onyour hand if you can move it up and down the handle, rather than lock itin the same spot every time. In a related vein-- Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They look alittle wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. Iwould guess they're a real headache to ream out, and expensive to throwout when you make a mistake. Greg from anglport@con2.com Wed May 26 06:57:56 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Reed,Was that the idea behing the (reverse) conical grip of the Ritz rods?Youcould certainly find a diameter you liked SOMEWHERE up-and-down thosebabies!Art At 09:07 PM 5/25/99 -0400, Reed Curry wrote:Sue,The "Western" grip (Full Wells) gives the same effect, somewhat. The"Comfi-cient" as it was called, never caught on, IMHO, because it forcedthe hand into a single spot on the grip. Some grips, like the "Eastern"(used by Payne, Thomas, Leonard, etc.) allowed the caster to move hishand up and down as his hand tired, to get a different diameter. Becausethe grip was slanted forward, the thumb was at somewhat the same angleas with the "Comfi-cient", but without the stop.Best regards,Reed "Sue K." wrote: RodM list, A South Bend cane. Ran into one tonight at local flyshop. Saw something I had not seen before. I WAS impressed withthe grip. It - was- a recessed thumb area on the cork grip.Now let me tell you, THAT was comfy. And in fact ? Think theowner said that South Bend had a sticker that used to go inthat thumb area called "Comfi-Grip". How's come we don't have recessed/customized thumb area on thecork grips of our rods ? Anyone out there that does ? I havehad cork grips customized to fit my hand, and now thinkingabout the thumb recess. pros, cons ?why's and why's not's ? from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed May 26 07:40:46 1999 Subject: Re: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt water use this grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You can avoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you should maintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times. This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger are relaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneither the front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, and then instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintained the firm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you would hurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop with a heavy rod with any other grip, however. I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip are comfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot of experimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.You can make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetter or worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the full wells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and the cigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As you said, It is a matter of opinion. from brookie@frii.com Wed May 26 08:42:12 1999 Subject: Re: Gripping inovations Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They look a little wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. I would guess they're a real headache toream out, and expensive to throw out when you make a mistake. Have a website for these ? so we can view ? from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed May 26 08:52:36 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess At 08:40 AM 5/26/1999 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. >> I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt water use this grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You can avoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you should maintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times. This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger are relaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneither the front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, and then instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintainedthe firm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you would hurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop witha heavy rod with any other grip, however. I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip are comfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot of experimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.You can make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetter or worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logical conclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the full wells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and the cigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As yousaid, It is a matter of opinion. I think that hand "mobility" on the grip may also be a casting mechanicsissue. I notice that my hand position relates to the type of casting strokeI intend to make. Usually I choke down for short dellicate casts and slideback to wale away. I like a smaller diameter forward and larger towardthebutt. Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 26 09:45:46 1999 Wed, 26 May 1999 22:43:49 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Gripping inovations I've tried one of these .....grips. They actually work pretty well andmake it hard to bend your wrist too far back but I can't get my headaround them on plastic let alone the right stuff. You made the point yourself re. fatigue unless you can move the grip from time to time. It's a little sad to see something as simple as a cork handle become toodifficult to make yourself. Tony your hand if you can move it up and down the handle, rather than lock itin the same spot every time. In a related vein-- Has anyone ever used the preformed cork ergonomic handles? They lookalittle wierd, but they do feel very comfortable to hold in your hand. Iwould guess they're a real headache to ream out, and expensive to throwout when you make a mistake. Greg /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from LambersonW@missouri.edu Wed May 26 14:02:30 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from hhholland@erols.com Wed May 26 15:08:50 1999 , Subject: Re: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess I have to agree with Mr. Smithwick. I do a lot of saltwater fishing, anddistance is not a luxury, it is a MUST. You simply can't get the crisp andsudden stop on either the back or forward cast without the thumb on top.This sudden stop is one of the keys to loop control and casting distance. Iteach casting all the time at the fly shop I manage, and while I sometimeshave students use an index finger on top, or the slightly turned grip tohelp them get the feel of keeping the rod tip high on the back cast (youcan't throw the tip down as easily with these grips) I have them go back tothe thumb on top as soon as possible. Different strokes for differentfolks, I guess.Regards, .....Hank H. -----Original Message----- owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess In a message dated 5/26/99 2:36:30 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: Now I know it's a subjective matter and I'm not a doctor but I tend toagree that placing your thumb on top while casting is not only tiringbut could cause damage to your hand over a period of time. >> I tend to disagree with this, Chris. Those of us that fish in salt waterusethis grip all the time because of the weight of the rods involved. You canavoid fatigue and stress by using the grip correctly. Basically you shouldmaintain a firm grip with the middle, ring, and pinky fingers at all times.This is not tiring to the hand or forearm. The thumb and index finger arerelaxed most of the time, but as you make a power stroke and stop oneitherthe front or backcast you tighten them firmly to make the crisp stop, andthen instantly relax them again to help damp the rod. If you maintainedthefirm grip with thumb and index finger all the time, I agree that you wouldhurt yourself. I don't think most people could achieve the crisp stop withaheavy rod with any other grip, however.I do agree that the straddle grip, or the index finger on top grip arecomfortable variations with lighter rods. At one time I did a lot ofexperimenting with thumb depressions, palm reliefs, finger grooves, etc.Youcan make a comfortable grip, but you are locked into one position, forbetteror worse. I finally realized that if you carried all this to it's logicalconclusion, you wouldn't have anything left to hold onto. I like the fullwells for heavy rods where I will only use the thumb above grip, and thecigar grip on lighter rods where I will be using the variations. As yousaid,It is a matter of opinion. from anglport@con2.com Wed May 26 15:48:31 1999 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: Re: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page Bill,Try http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod-archive.html It loads quite quickly on my p133 at a connection of 26,400 kps. May beyour machine. Hope this helps.Art At 02:02 PM 5/26/99 -0500, Lamberson, William R. wrote:I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed May 26 15:53:37 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id PAA07078; Wed, 26 May1999 15:53:27 -0500 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with Subject: Re: Access to Hexrod through Rodmaker's Page Bill, We've had some intermittent network problems here (I noticedthem Monday and again today.) That may be the source of yourproblems. The URL is http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/hexrod.htmlBut its doesn't matter whether you enter it yourself or clickon the Rodmakers page. That's why they call it the "World Wide Wait" ;- )......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 26 May 1999, Lamberson, William R. wrote: I have recently been unable to access Frank Stetzer's taper archive andarchive search engine through the Rodmaker's Page. It is very slowloadingand eventually times out. Is the problem with my machine? Is there analternative way to access it? Bill Lamberson from chris@artistree.com Wed May 26 16:16:31 1999 Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Best Regards, Chris Wohlford p.s. - Chester, If your out there...I'll be ready by this fall!!! from gaff@carol.net Wed May 26 16:51:00 1999 0400 Subject: greenfield lathe hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed May 26 18:58:41 1999 Thu, 27 May 1999 07:58:15 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: greenfield lathe Gee, I wish we had lathes in the churches around here! ;-) Perhaps I aughtn't have said that? Tony On Wed, 26 May 1999, w.d. gatliff wrote: hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed May 26 20:30:45 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0A216E7012A; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:32:18 EDT Subject: Re: South Bend cork thumb recess Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed Chris Wohlford wrote: Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. Just to clarify the the grip I mentioned, the index finger does not reston top. When looking down directly at the grip, the top being 12:00 andif the thumb was at 9:00 your index finger would be at 2:00. You stopthe rod by tightening your grip. A fellow list member turned this former east coast boy on to casting forsteelhead. So I've been practicing my casting with a 10 ft 9 wt, w/running line and a heavy lead core shooting head. Made the mistake oftrying to stop that rig with my thumb on top a few times... couldn'thold my plane for a week! Best Regards, Chris Wohlford p.s. - Chester, If your out there...I'll be ready by this fall!!! from BThoman@neonsoft.com Wed May 26 22:56:41 1999 Subject: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperature theglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to be alot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured the gluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know and I'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 before theglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at 250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from splitcanekev@excite.com Wed May 26 22:58:01 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP Wed, 26 May 1999 20:58:11 -0700 Subject: Re: greenfield lathe at mass Was that mass at "Our Lady of Perpetual Planing"? On Wed, 26 May 1999 17:50:00 -0400, w.d. gatliff wrote: hey guys,anyone ever heard of a greenfield metal lathe. ran into one while inmass.thanks,wil Kevin P. Burkhardt"Better living through bamboo..."http://ww4.choice.net/~spazz/flyfish.htm _______________________________________________________Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ from splitcanekev@excite.com Wed May 26 23:03:51 1999 fortune.excite.com(InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP 0700 Subject: Harrisburg, PA. Hi all, Long time no posts...I've been hiding in the wings and laying low...also gota new e-mail just for my fishing stuff. Anyway...I'm going to be in Harrisburg next week from Tuesday thru Friday(on business, sadly). Does anyone on the list live around there (or havefriends that do) that I could hook up with for a little fishing and/orbamboo chatter. Any leads would be appreciated. see ya, Kev Kevin P. Burkhardt"Better living through bamboo..."http://ww4.choice.net/~spazz/flyfish.htm _______________________________________________________Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed May 26 23:47:20 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I get my Shell 100 UF glue (its called Casco Resin here in Canada) from afirm that makes architectural veneers. They cure the veneer layer onto acore at temperatures approaching 400 degrees F. The glued sheet is readyin about 4 minutes. I'm experimenting with a high temp post cure to seeits effect on a finished rod. ----------From: Thoman, Brian Subject: Slightly Scientific Glue TestDate: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:55 PM I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8before theglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from chris@artistree.com Thu May 27 01:38:24 1999 Subject: John Alden Knight You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu May 27 05:30:12 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id TAA09743; Thu, 27May 1999 19:30:03+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp (1.3G-GeocitiesJ-3.1) with ESMTP id TAA13415; Thu,27 May 199919:29:58 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Hello Chris san, I am a Japanese crafter and have been researching the origin of bamboofly rod in my country.There was one pioneer hexagonal rod maker in my country about 80 yearsago right after the end of WW-II. He wrote a sentence on Japanesefishing magazine in 1955 as follows; "Considering the effects of dry and wet of the air, and to protect a rod from the stretch and the shrink of bamboo, it seems effective to planestrips in 60.5 degrees for thicker strips and thinner strips in 61degrees." It is interesting to know that there are similar thoughts in the world. Max Chris Wohlford wrote: You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed -- Max Satohan Oriental Bamboo Fly Rod Crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum- Acropolis/2169http://members.tripod.com/~maxrod from brookie@frii.com Thu May 27 06:45:51 1999 Subject: Re: Harrisburg, PA. At 09:03 PM 5/26/99 -0700, you wrote:Hi all, Long time no posts...I've been hiding in the wings and laying low...also got a new e-mail just for my fishing stuff. Anyway...I'm going to be in Harrisburg next week from Tuesday thru Friday (on business, sadly). Does anyone on the list live around there (or have friends that do)that I could hook up with for a little fishing and/orbamboo chatter. Any leads would be appreciated. Irreverantly said : well Kevin, that IS where John Randolph hangs his fishingcaps. You know of the Fly Fisherman Mag infamy ... corporateoffices are there, yes ? I say you drop by the offices,pick 'im up, convert him to the wonders and beauty of cane flyfishing ! And if he's already converted, have him jointhe RodM. list. suecolorado*G* from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu May 27 08:05:12 1999 Thu, 27 May 1999 09:03:46 -0400 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight =_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500 Chris, Yes, indeed, that's a known (but less regularly practiced) technique. The more neatly together, allowing the glue to flow more uniformly betweenthestrips. The reduced angle should also produce tighter fits at the outsidecorners of the flats, and ensure less danger of "starving" the jointswithin. To me, the idea makes perfect sense. Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute angle as a regular option onhisHand Planing Mill. cheers, Bill ----------From: Chris Wohlford Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: John Alden KnightDate: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:44 PM You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500 Chris,Yes, indeed, = of course, is that the center of the bundle of six strips will nestle = fits at the outside corners of the flats, and ensure less danger of = makes perfect sense.Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute =angle as a regular option on his Hand Planing Mill.cheers, = Reed ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA81F.59808500-- from Leessinker@aol.com Thu May 27 10:25:34 1999 Subject: H-I "Beaver" Greetings to all,Anyone specialize in the recording or collecting of H-I rods?Recently picked up a H-I "Beaver" , both tips delaminated and figured the practice of gluing and binding would be good practice for the future.I've read of H-I's "Beaverkill " but nothing of a "Beaver". Mr Sinclair"s book didn't refer to it, did someone make a mistake at the factory?The writing on the rod is very clear and no trace of a faded "kill".Any Ideas? Thanks Dewayne Davisonleessinker@aol.com from chris@artistree.com Thu May 27 10:42:14 1999 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Of course I was attempting to be facetious. Looks like I better stick tobuilding rods. Best Regards,Chris WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Chris, Yes, indeed, that's a known (but less regularly practiced) technique.The idea, of course, is that the center of the bundle of six stripswill nestle more neatly together, allowing the glue to flow moreuniformly between the strips. The reduced angle should also producetighter fits at the outside corners of the flats, and ensure lessdanger of "starving" the joints within. To me, the idea makesperfect sense. Tom Morgan offers this slightly more acute angle as a regular optionon his Hand Planing Mill. cheers, Bill from madcap@u.washington.edu Thu May 27 13:01:27 1999 (madcap@dante26.u.washington.edu ESMTP id LAA37524 ESMTP idLAA102568;Thu, 27 May 1999 11:01:22 -0700 Subject: bronze silk thread Does anyone know where I could get my hands on some bronze silk thread? Jun from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 15:19:33 1999 Subject: Re: John Alden Knight Sure, its called cheating. Chris Wohlford wrote: You know every time I open one of his books this guy surprises me. Even50 years later. For instance, the other day I noticed how he describedmilling strips at 61.5 degrees to ensure a better fit. Does thattechnique sound familiar to anyone? Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Reed Curry wrote: Chris,You would approve of John Alden Knight who in two of his excellentbooks, one being Modern Fly Casting, espouses the grip you mention. Hegives very cogent reasons for his choice.Best regards,Reed from anglport@con2.com Thu May 27 15:38:11 1999 Subject: Re: H-I "Beaver" Dewayne,Just how short IS the butt section? At 4" longer than the handle itcouldBE a Beaverkill *BSEG*!Art At 11:23 AM 5/27/99 EDT, Leessinker@aol.com wrote:Greetings to all,Anyone specialize in the recording or collecting of H-I rods?Recently picked up a H-I "Beaver" , both tips delaminated and figured the practice of gluing and binding would be good practice for the future.I've read of H-I's "Beaverkill " but nothing of a "Beaver". Mr Sinclair"s book didn't refer to it, did someone make a mistake at the factory?The writing on the rod is very clear and no trace of a faded "kill".Any Ideas? Thanks Dewayne Davisonleessinker@aol.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 15:54:49 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid can becured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes for largestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum curingtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making it powderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at different temperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to be alot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter in arod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first. But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from tklein@amgen.com Thu May 27 16:23:28 1999 smtp.amgen.com via smap (3.2) Subject: On Topic? Can somebody let me know if questions related to the "business" ofrodmakingare considered an acceptable topic on this list? (Federal excise taxes,sales and use taxes, etc.) ---Tim from stpete@netten.net Thu May 27 18:07:26 1999 Subject: [Fwd: What have I missed?] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DE5166C4651 This is my third attempt at joining the list. Have I done somethingbad? Am I vanquished from the list? Exiled? Help! Rick C. --------------5DE5166C4651 Subject: What have I missed? I've been bumped a couple of times over the last days and have missedmuch of the discussion. Any good fights going on? Seriously, Wil Gatliff and I have been trying to figure out how to run alathe (7x10 mini lathe, there's quite a few good sites re: this machineand an e- group, too) and have been trying to figure out how one makesferrules. Seems like Bailey Woods prices are quite reasonable at thismoment. Rick C. --------------5DE5166C4651-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Thu May 27 19:30:41 1999 Subject: RE: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed to rememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my different timesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation with theURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250* andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum curingtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to what temperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me know andI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that was airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from Canerods@aol.com Thu May 27 20:25:47 1999 Subject: Re: greenfield lathe Tony, Try attending the church of Our Lady of Perpetual Pocket Water! Don B. from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu May 27 21:05:09 1999 Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Urac cures up in minutes with heat and any longer in the oven will notmake theadhesive any more cured!I tend not to get advice from anyone but the manufacturers of the productIintend to use and that way you cannot blame anyone. Too much heatproduces aweak joint and if it does not give way now it could very well do so in thefuture.All it takes is a phone call to Cyanamid and ask them to fax you theinformationon Urac.These are industrial adhesives that require certain conditions to be met tobecompletely successful.150deg from what I can remember is within the temperature range of therecommended curing temperature and the extra time in the oven does noharm.If you put your test pieces in a cold oven and then set the themostat to300 thepiece would have cured before 300 deg was reached. A butt section orthick testpiece placed in a 300 deg oven stand a good chance of curing before it getsto300. A tip of a tip section will be ruined because of the lack of mass, theadhesive will just turn to powder. Try itTerry "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from jczimny@dol.net Thu May 27 21:41:31 1999 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep it above50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured at differenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URAC tofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed to haveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'd lovetohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheet fromCyanamid It can> > becured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going to bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat cured thegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according to thedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used both theNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to get therightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead of thewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8 beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from saltwein@swbell.net Fri May 28 07:00:19 1999 gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net HAA10783 Subject: Urac cure time Mr. Zimny, Do you have any ideas as to the cure time of Urac without a catalyst?Would it befeasible to use it this way? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove 50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going tobealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri May 28 08:27:18 1999 Fri, 28 May 1999 09:27:09 -0400 "'Rodmakers'" Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test =_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560 I have been using Titebond II for a long, long time now, but I am going tochange to Urac because I understand that the glue will hold up better underthe heat required for straightening a section. I'm hoping that is so. ButI am interested in this thread on the heat-curing of Urac. So, is it the case that the heat-cure process does nothing to enhance anyof properties of Urac, and is only used to accelerate the curing process? If so, then I wonder why one would bother with heat-curing at all? I have always letmy glued-up sections dry (cure) for a couple weeks anyway. Cheers, Bill ----------From: J. C. Zimny Cc: 'TERENCE ACKLAND' ; 'Rodmakers' Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue TestDate: Thursday, May 27, 1999 7:44 PM Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm stillplayingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's goingto bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm notascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at anydiameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He gottheoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would failfirst.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failedat250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560 I have been using TitebondII = understand that the glue will hold up better under the heat required for = is it the case that the heat-cure process does nothing to enhance any of =properties of Urac, and is only used to accelerate the curing process? = if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin it = F during this process, it will cure. It will not show any = = = = = diameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximum = = = Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA8EB.CA242560-- from RVenneri@aol.com Fri May 28 14:02:09 1999 Subject: Help! Does any one have Dan Hall's email address I seem to have lost it.ThanksBob VVenneri's 21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882Rvenneri@aol.comhttp://members.aol.com/Venneris/home.html from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri May 28 14:23:23 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AD59C5000DA; Fri, 28 May 1999 15:24:09 EDT Subject: Re: Help! Bob,I just fished with Dan last night. His email address is:djhall@cisco.comBest regards,Reed RVenneri@aol.com wrote: Does any one have Dan Hall's email address I seem to have lost it.ThanksBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882Rvenneri@aol.comhttp://members.aol.com/Venneris/home.html from stuart.tod@virgin.net Fri May 28 15:50:03 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP Fri, 28 May 1999 21:50:09 +0100 Subject: Re: On Topic? Posssibly, but only if you can make them really, really interesting toall the non - US subscribers! Thanks in breathless anticipation, Stuart (in the UK) Klein, Tim wrote: Can somebody let me know if questions related to the "business" ofrodmakingare considered an acceptable topic on this list? (Federal excise taxes,sales and use taxes, etc.) ---Tim from rafick@fwi.com Fri May 28 16:39:42 1999 Subject: re. business boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440 I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every =thread is of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on =rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impression that any =discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440 I belong to other fishing lists as = rodmakers and not every thread is of interest to every lister, not = haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the = that any discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I not. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEA92A.48305440-- from thardy@foxinternet.net Fri May 28 16:50:43 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0700 Subject: carbide plane edge I don't remember who was doing this, but a while backsomeone was offering the chance to get in on having acarbide cutting edge welded onto a regular plane blade.Is it still possible to get in on this? Sounds veryinteresting.Thanks,Tom Hardy from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Fri May 28 17:08:50 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Grayrock Camping Is there a group reservation number for people attending the GrayrockGathering and camping at Hartwick Pines SP? Brian from cbogart@shentel.net Fri May 28 17:15:57 1999 "rafick@fwi.com" boundary="_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_"Subject: Re: re. business --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_ Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text--- I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every threadis of interestto every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impressionthat anydiscussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_ Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text---From: R.A.FickDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:07 - 0500 Ibelong to otherfishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every thread is of interest toevery lister,not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already amunder theimpression that any discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I thinknot. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862608=_=_=_-- from BThoman@neonsoft.com Fri May 28 17:50:33 1999 Subject: RE: Urac cure time About heat curing URAC. I called today to find the times. 28 minutes at140* or 12 minutes at 160* will fully cure. My experiment was to test the strength of glues cured at differenttemperatures. The times I chose are not necessarily what I would use in arod nor are they probably good for the rod or glue. But, I was verysurprised that the URAC withstood the temperatures that it did, not themention the fact that the epoxies failed before it. Incidentally, to test the sections, I preheated my home oven (which Iassumehas a 50* or so temp. swing) and put in the sections on a cookie sheet. Tocheck each one I removed the cookie sheet and flexed each section. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 -----Original Message-----From: Steve Trauthwein [SMTP:saltwein@swbell.net]Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: Urac cure time Mr. Zimny, Do you have any ideas as to the cure time of Urac without a catalyst?Would it befeasible to use it this way? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove 50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not)that isused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many,manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentationwiththeURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at250* andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm stillplayingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid temperature.It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understandingoftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's goingto bealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'mnot ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old thatwas airdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces wereflamed.I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at anydiameter inarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He gottheoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would failfirst.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failedat250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave upat 350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from tim_klein@email.msn.com Fri May 28 19:07:41 1999 SMTPSVC;Fri, 28 May 1999 17:07:08 -0700 Subject: Re: re. business boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01BEA934.E18F21C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BEA934.E18F21C0 Just to make sure nobody misinterpreted my question... I wasn't inquiring about the acceptability of trying to DO business on =the list. I wade through enough spam each day without adding another =source. There are plenty of places on the web to promote and advertise; =this shouldn't be one of them. My question was whether it was acceptable to discuss questions about =running a rodmaking business that aren't directly related to the making =of the rod. Since I haven't seen any strong negative reactions to my original =request, I'll provide an example. Please let me know if it is =inappropriate for Rodmakers and I'll try to locate another forum for =these type of questions. from limited research, I see that manufacturers of sport fishing =equipment are liable for a Federal Excise Tax of 10% on the sales price =of a rod. The IRS description of what is and is not subject to the tax =leaves little wiggle room, and I'm fairly certain that a bamboo fly rod =would not be exempt. Does anyone know of another regulation that would =get rodmakers off the hook for this tax? Is there some sort of exemption =that a simple craftsman with a small operation can take advantage of? If=somebody out there is familiar with the excise tax; can a rod sale be =broken down into a parts and labor type of sale that would exempt all =but the materials costs from the tax? Knowing that this is a public forum, I'd certainly understand if people =were reluctant to discuss this particular issue. If anyone is =interested, I'd certainly be open to discussing it privately. Again, I apologize if this doesn't belong on Rodmakers. If you'd rather, =we could discuss why the government feels they deserve 10% of the sales=price of a beautiful handmade tool that a craftsman constructed from a =few strips of exotic grass, a spool of thread, small amounts of wood, =metal, cork, glue and varnish, and a whole lot of sweat. Each of these =items gets taxed multiple times before it becomes a rod that casts a =flyline, leader, and fly (that are also all subject to the excise tax!) =onto the water. (I think I'd better go fishing...) -----Original Message-----From: Chris Bogart rafick@fwi.com Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 4:18 PMSubject: Re: re. business Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas and = the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and =conducting business. A numberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it =interfere with the exchange about rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers who =make rods, components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people = Chris --Original Message Text---From: R.A.FickDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:07 - 0500 I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every =thread is of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on =rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impression that any =discussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BEA934.E18F21C0 Just to make sure nobody = question... I wasn't inquiring about the acceptability of trying = business on the list. I wade through enough spam each day without adding= source. There are plenty of places on the web to promote and advertise; = shouldn't be one of them. My question was whether it was acceptable todiscuss = about running a rodmaking business that aren't directly related to the = the rod. Since I haven't seen any strong negative reactions = inappropriate for Rodmakers and I'll try to locate another forum for = of questions. from limited research, I see that manufacturers of = fishing equipment are liable for a Federal Excise Tax of 10% on the = of a rod. The IRS description of what is and is not subject to the tax = little wiggle room, and I'm fairly certain that a bamboo fly rod would = exempt. Does anyone know of another regulation that would get rodmakers= hook for this tax? Is there some sort of exemption that a simple = a small operation can take advantage of? If somebody out there is = the excise tax; can a rod sale be broken down into a parts and labor = sale that would exempt all but the materials costs from the =tax? Knowing that this is a public forum, I'd certainly = interested, I'd certainly be open to discussing it =privately. Again, I apologize if this doesn't = Rodmakers. If you'd rather, we could discuss why the government feels = deserve 10% of the sales price of a beautiful handmade tool that a = constructed from a few strips of exotic grass, a spool of thread, small = of wood, metal, cork, glue and varnish, and a whole lot of sweat. =Each of these items gets taxed multiple times before it becomes= that casts a flyline, leader, and fly (that are also all subject to the = tax!) onto the water. (I think I'd better go fishing...) -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= businessRickThe = that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas and information on = craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and = business. A numberof the participants do have a business but we = let it interfere with the exchange about rodmakinggoing on. On = Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers who make rods, = andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then = would and have in the past spam the list with their weekly = or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make = Text---From: R.A.FickDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 = -0500I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not = is of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on = " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I = not.Rick = ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BEA934.E18F21C0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri May 28 19:36:30 1999 Fri, 28 May 1999 20:36:20 -0400 Subject: Re: re. business =_NextPart_000_01BEA949.BABB5AE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA949.BABB5AE0 I think it's simply a matter of having decided that our preferred focus wasto be upon rod BUILDING. No, there's nothing bad about competition in themarketplace, but we did not wish this list to become a marketplace. Anatmosphere of competition is not likely to encourage an open exchange of bein business to be promoting our products here -- carving out corners ofthe "market share" and so on. Besides, the vast majority of our membersare amateurs who simply wish to learn more about their hobby. One canalways discuss business matters elsewhere, if that is one's interest. Ourinterest is in building. Cheers, Bill---------- Subject: re. business I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every threadis of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers " business" is taboo. why? Is competition a bad thing? I think not. Rick ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA949.BABB5AE0 I think it's simply a matter=of having decided that our preferred focus was to be upon rod BUILDING. = marketplace, but we did not wish this list to become a marketplace. = us who happen to be in business to be promoting our products here -- = 1999 2:51 PMI belong to =other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every thread is of =interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for =very long, but I already am under the impression that any discussion of =" business" is taboo. why? Is competition a bad thing? I think = ------=_NextPart_000_01BEA949.BABB5AE0-- from brookie@frii.com Fri May 28 19:39:44 1999 Subject: PHY rod available So, I stopped by the little local downhome flyshop tonight,dropped off ( gasp ! ) a graphite blank for someone to workup for me. When I walked in ? There was a lady there who had a PaulYoung cane that she was interested in selling. Fortunatelythe proprietor said she should ' slow down ' and get someinput on this. Already some chap at her place of work hadsaid he would buy all the flyfishing stuff she had for acouple hundred dollars. Her father lived in Detroit, has a variety of fishing gear,but of interest to this group IS a Paul Young cane. Thefather has passed away and the income from the sale of theflyfishing gear will be given to the surviving widow. I told the lady I would post the particulars to the RodMakersList to see what (a) she should do and (b) what price rangeshe should be aware of. Offers of $200 just won't cut ithere I don't think. Okay, so what we have here is : Paul Young cane, 2 tips, butt cap has Paul Young's name andDetroit, Michigan. Inscribed with " ACE " Measured out at8'6". Talk to me here, what should I advise this lady ? thanks,SUEcolorado from dragnfly@uniserve.com Fri May 28 19:59:12 1999 Subject: Unsubscribe boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA933.716C45E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA933.716C45E0 Unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA933.716C45E0 Unsubscribe ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA933.716C45E0-- from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri May 28 20:32:52 1999 Subject: Re: On Topic? It wouldn't bother me, Because I wouldn't want to see any ofthe guys on the list get into trouble with the IRS. I was building rods for quite a while before I found out about the 10% excise tax that we are supposed to be paying. Luckily, I contacted the IRS and took care of it, before they came knocking on my door. If any of the guys have questionsabout this, I think weshould try to set them in the right direction. Were else would they get the best info, but from other rod builders? Dave LeClair from LECLAIR123@aol.com Fri May 28 20:51:33 1999 Subject: Re: re. business In a message dated 5/28/99 5:42:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HARMS1@prodigy.net writes: Just to let everyone know, I had a man from the IRS out here at my shop a few years ago to get this"10%" tax straightenedout. It seems that even if you are an amateur rod maker and make a fewrods and Sell some of them, then you are liable forpaying the excise tax to the Fed. Government. The problem is,that they investigate these things in ways that we don't know.They know about a lot of "amateur" rod makers out there whoare making and selling rods and/or components (which are alsotaxable) and they are giving these guys a certain amount of time tocontact THEM, before they contact YOU. As he told me, since I contacted them on my own, to take care of this matter, he wouldn't make me pay the fines and latecharges. If I hadn't contacted them first and waited to see if they caught me, then I would have had to pay stiff fines and late charges. This excise tax is also on fishing flies that are made and sold. Any way, just thought you might like to know. Dave LeClair from BambooRods@aol.com Fri May 28 20:55:45 1999 Subject: camping I don't have my paper work with me but anyone wishing to "setup" as agroup can call the Park and have them check the reservation for Doug Hall andthey should give you the group number. I will post the proper number tues.after I retrieve the paperwork from my office.doug from dericco@banet.net Fri May 28 23:03:12 1999 out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA125092; Sat, 29 May 199904:01:30 GMT Subject: Re: On Topic? If you call the IRS they will send you a pamphlet that explains it in detail.Youwill need to get an EIN# (employer identification number) to pay the taxanywayand the 10% is on YOUR cost of the item. If you make & sell fishing gearthe fedssee you as a sport fishing tackle manufacturer. Look out Zebco here Icome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roger LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: It wouldn't bother me, Because I wouldn't want to see any ofthe guys on the list get into trouble with the IRS. I was building rods forquite a while before I found out about the 10% excise tax that we aresupposed to be paying. Luckily, I contacted the IRS and took care of it,before they came knocking on my door. If any of the guys have questionsaboutthis, I think weshould try to set them in the right direction. Were else would they getthebest info, but from other rod builders? Dave LeClair from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri May 28 23:18:46 1999 Sat, 29 May 1999 12:18:17 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: re. business Just in case nobody else enters in on this I'll write what I think is thereason.The host site of this list and it's archives does so as long as it is notof a business nature including the activities on line of it's menmbers.Also there is nothing wrong with people mentioning a good or bad productor service on line, you just can't use this list as a platform to beatyour drum. Tony On Fri, 28 May 1999, R.A.Fick wrote: I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every threadis ofinterest to every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for verylong, but Ialready am under the impression that any discussion of " business" istaboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. Rick /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Fri May 28 23:57:25 1999 with ESMTP id +0000 Subject: What to say? Hi all, I was fishing 'my' stream this evening and not for the first timesomeone complimented me on my rod. "Nice rod", the fellow fishermansays. "Thamks", I reply.... The next question is "Where'd you getit"? That's where I get all squishy! I reluctantly tell him "I madeit", and he'll ask me where I got the 'blank'. Then, when I finallytell him I MADE the blank he gets sort of impressed (scared, really) andlooks at me as if I have three heads! "You MADE that??!!", he says. "Yes", I answer. "Oh (pregnant pause) that's nice", he says. AND... That's where I get lost. What do I say?? I'm not the kind ofperson to... you know... Blow the old horn. But how do I, in tenthousand words or less, explain the "culm to fishing tool" process ofour craft without sounding like a major snotball? I like to think I'm asort of "Mr. Nice Guy" on the stream since my state (NJ) has kind of abad rap when it comes to "neighborly behavior". OK, Miss Manners... Whattheheckdoido??? Anxiously, Mr. Snotball from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sat May 29 00:03:24 1999 (rperry@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: Re: PHY rod available Hi Sue, Feel free to give the girl my email or phone#. I will help her sell it,value it or whatever she needs. And I'm not interested in buying it formyself so no conflict there. There was a 7'6", Paul Young Ace offered in1997 for $750, 2tips, one short. You are right about $200 being a bitlow. What should you advise this lady? To contact someone she can trust. Regards, Bob On Fri, 28 May 1999, Sue K wrote: So, I stopped by the little local downhome flyshop tonight,dropped off ( gasp ! ) a graphite blank for someone to workup for me. When I walked in ? There was a lady there who had a PaulYoung cane that she was interested in selling. Fortunatelythe proprietor said she should ' slow down ' and get someinput on this. Already some chap at her place of work hadsaid he would buy all the flyfishing stuff she had for acouple hundred dollars. Her father lived in Detroit, has a variety of fishing gear,but of interest to this group IS a Paul Young cane. Thefather has passed away and the income from the sale of theflyfishing gear will be given to the surviving widow. I told the lady I would post the particulars to the RodMakersList to see what (a) she should do and (b) what price rangeshe should be aware of. Offers of $200 just won't cut ithere I don't think. Okay, so what we have here is : Paul Young cane, 2 tips, butt cap has Paul Young's name andDetroit, Michigan. Inscribed with " ACE " Measured out at8'6". Talk to me here, what should I advise this lady ? thanks,SUEcolorado from chris@artistree.com Sat May 29 02:18:18 1999 Subject: The IRS & Rodmakers Well at first I was hesitant to respond to such a daunting topic but itis an important issue to U.S. rodmakers who would like to sell theirrods. So I'll take a stab and give you an interpretation. First, I'm not a tax accountant so please don't depend on myinterpretation without doing some thorough tax research, consulting withthe IRS or someone qualified to do so. In the U.S., if you manufacture "Sport Fishing Equipment" for resale youare liable for Federal Excise Tax 720. In most cases the tax can beapplied to the wholesale price of the product sold after being adjusted the product. (60% of the retail price seems to be an acceptablewholesale price) 1) You sold rod for: $1000 (rod's retail price)2) Subtract 40% = $600 (rod's wholesale price)3) Subtract Fed Excise Tax paid on components - $25 (must have specificamounts you paid)4) Total amount liable for tax = $575 5) Federal Excise Tax 720 owed ( 10% ) = $57.50 You must file a Federal Tax Deposit Coupon quarterly with the taxpayment due. Even if you have no tax due it is recommended that you fileanyway as it shows you are attempting to comply with the law. Most of the time the manufacture hides the Excise tax in the retailprice of the rod so as not to confuse the customer. Now, it's not over yet. from the what I have been told by the IRS andothers is before you can even begin to file and pay for a Federal ExciseTax 720 you need to have a EIN (Employee Identification Number). Nokidding, you can't just use your SS# to file, you must have a EIN to bein full compliance. Even if you have no employees all business payingexcise taxes need a EIN to file. And to make matters worse getting anEIN from the IRS when you don't have employees can be tricky. Since someIRS people don't even know their own rules you might need to remind themthat you are liable for excise taxes and that is why you are requestingan EIN. Sounds ridiculous, but true. Now, in regard to the Excise tax paid on components. Some of yoursuppliers will list this tax on the invoice and some won't. If theydon't, you're pretty much out of luck. You can avoid paying this excisetax on components if you file a Form 637 for tax exemption. You willreceive a number from the IRS. Give this number to your suppliers andthey won't charge you the Excise tax on components. You also need tohave a EIN in order to file Form 637. The Excise tax ends up being paidin the end one way or another so the only ones I know who are using thisform are the larger companies who buy a lot of components. I understand that the tax is funneled back to the individual states tobe put to use in maintaining fisheries. Whether this is true or reallyenhances the quality of our fisheries I would hate to speculate. Again, please don't take my advise over a qualified tax accountant. I'mmerely trying to give an overview for those that might be interested.These laws can be quite confusing. Check out the rules and regulations -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat May 29 08:20:04 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9AFF553012C; Sat, 29 May 1999 09:20:47 EDT Subject: Re: What to say? Dennis,This isn't a Jersie issue. He is uncomfortable because you had producedsomething, after a great deal of labor... and had not been paid for it. Thisis blasphemy in modern society. He was frightened because he was in thepresence of a throwback, thoughts of the movie "Deliverance" werefast- forwarding through his head.If you had only told him that you made the rod, not for some nebulouspersonal satisfaction, but as a way to conceal a swordstick in the butt, hewould have felt much better. Miss Manners has spoken.Best regards,Reed Dennis Haftel wrote: Hi all, I was fishing 'my' stream this evening and not for the first timesomeone complimented me on my rod. "Nice rod", the fellow fishermansays. "Thamks", I reply.... The next question is "Where'd you getit"? That's where I get all squishy! I reluctantly tell him "I madeit", and he'll ask me where I got the 'blank'. Then, when I finallytell him I MADE the blank he gets sort of impressed (scared, really) andlooks at me as if I have three heads! "You MADE that??!!", he says."Yes", I answer. "Oh (pregnant pause) that's nice", he says. AND... That's where I get lost. What do I say?? I'm not the kind ofperson to... you know... Blow the old horn. But how do I, in tenthousand words or less, explain the "culm to fishing tool" process ofour craft without sounding like a major snotball? I like to think I'm asort of "Mr. Nice Guy" on the stream since my state (NJ) has kind of abad rap when it comes to "neighborly behavior". OK, Miss Manners... Whattheheckdoido??? Anxiously, Mr. Snotball from rcurry@ttlc.net Sat May 29 08:23:51 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AA97F560012C; Sat, 29 May 1999 09:24:39 EDT Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers An excellent reason to stick with the barter system...Best regards,Reed from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Sat May 29 08:28:55 1999 with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.83s.R) Subject: Re: What to say? This isn't a Jersie issue. He is uncomfortable because you hadproducedsomething, after a great deal of labor... and had not been paid for it.Thisis blasphemy in modern society. He was frightened because he was in thepresence of a throwback, thoughts of the movie "Deliverance" werefast-forwarding through his head. "What ya gonna do with him cuzin?" "Ain't he got a purty rod". hahahahhahahaha If you had only told him that you made the rod, not for some nebulouspersonal satisfaction, but as a way to conceal a swordstick in the butt,hewould have felt much better. Miss Manners has spoken.Best regards,Reed Dennis Haftel wrote: Hi all, I was fishing 'my' stream this evening and not for the first timesomeone complimented me on my rod. "Nice rod", the fellow fishermansays. "Thamks", I reply.... The next question is "Where'd you getit"? That's where I get all squishy! I reluctantly tell him "I madeit", and he'll ask me where I got the 'blank'. Then, when I finallytell him I MADE the blank he gets sort of impressed (scared, really) andlooks at me as if I have three heads! "You MADE that??!!", he says."Yes", I answer. "Oh (pregnant pause) that's nice", he says. AND... That's where I get lost. What do I say?? I'm not the kind ofperson to... you know... Blow the old horn. But how do I, in tenthousand words or less, explain the "culm to fishing tool" process ofour craft without sounding like a major snotball? I like to think I'm asort of "Mr. Nice Guy" on the stream since my state (NJ) has kind of abad rap when it comes to "neighborly behavior". OK, Miss Manners... Whattheheckdoido??? Anxiously, Mr. Snotball from brookie@frii.com Sat May 29 09:10:22 1999 Subject: Re: What to say? Well, I'm not even a cane builder and I get 'into the rap' withfolks on this ! If they show any interest at all and know naught?Give them the 2 minute thing : " You know anything about this cane rod building ? No ? Well,it's pretty interesting actually. The raw cane stalks come in12' pieces, about 5" in diameter. These large pieces are cutinto shorter lengths and then split into very narrow strips. The cane rod is made up of 6 pieces that are glued together afterbeing planed down. " It's at this point that I fall all over myself in the awe andwonder that someone, ANYONE, could glue together the six sectionsof the tip of a 3 wt cane rod !! And I convey that. I usually end up with something like, "You ever been a hippie ? Done the natural earth thing ?Enjoyed goods made by hand from natural materials ? No ? Well,consider that this rod here ( the cane ) is an amazing finishedproduct of something that was grown in China. And the feel of a cane rod -is- remarkable when it flexes. They can be expensiveto buy, sure .... but kinda neat aren't they ? " Mumble mumble the chap goes. OR, that rare occasion ? When his eyes light up and he truely DOESunderstand. Not that he will do anything about it, but you have just made his day ! from cbogart@shentel.net Sat May 29 09:12:07 1999 "tim_klein@email.msn.com" boundary="_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862640=_=_=_"Subject: Re: re. business --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862640=_=_=_ Tim I think you understand the fine line. The info put out about what oneneeds toknow about rodmaking as a business (the good, the bad, and the ugly of it) isacceptable. Thishelps everyone to make his or her own personal decisions about where they want to takethis craft to.This is sharing informationthat twenty years ago no one would have shared. Because, it was allbusiness back thenand everything was a trade secret. Chris --Original Message Text--- Just to make sure nobody misinterpreted my question... I wasn't inquiring about the acceptability of trying to DO business on thelist. I wadethrough enough spam each day without adding another source. There are plenty of places on the web to promoteand advertise;this shouldn't be one of them. My question was whether it was acceptable to discuss questions aboutrunning a rodmakingbusiness that aren't directly related to the making of the rod. Since I haven't seen any strong negative reactions to my original request,I'll providean example. Please let me know if it is inappropriate for Rodmakers and I'll try to locate another forum for thesetype ofquestions. from limited research, I see that manufacturers of sport fishingequipment are liable sales price of a rod. The IRS description of what is and is not subject tothe taxleaves little wiggle room, and I'm fairly certain that a bamboo fly rod would not be exempt. Does anyone know of anotherregulation thatwould get rodmakers off the hook with a smalloperation can take advantage of? If somebody out there is familiar with the excise tax; can a rod sale bebroken down into aparts and labor type of sale that would exempt all but the materials costs from the tax? Knowing that this is a public forum, I'd certainly understand if peoplewere reluctantto discuss this particular issue. If anyone is interested, I'd certainly be open to discussing it privately. Again, I apologize if this doesn't belong on Rodmakers. If you'd rather, wecoulddiscuss why the government feels they deserve 10% of the sales price of a beautiful handmade tool that acraftsman constructed from a few strips of exotic grass, a spool of thread, small amounts of wood, metal, cork, glue and varnish, anda whole lotof sweat. Each of these items gets taxed multiple times before it becomes a rod that casts a flyline, leader,and fly (thatare also all subject to the excise tax!) onto the water. (I think I'd better go fishing...) -----Original Message----- rafick@fwi.com Subject: Re: re. business Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text--- I belong to other fishing lists as well as rodmakers and not every threadis of interestto every lister, not possible. I haven't been on rodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impressionthat anydiscussion of " business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I think not. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862640=_=_=_ Tim I think you understand the fine line. The info put out about what oneneeds to knowabout rodmaking as a business (the good, the bad, and the ugly of it) isacceptable. Thishelps everyone to make his or her own personal decisions about where they want to takethis craft to.This is sharing informationthat twenty years ago no one would have shared. Because, it was allbusiness back thenand everything was a trade secret. Chris --Original Message Text---From: Tim KleinDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:06:59 - 0600 Just to make surenobody misinterpreted my question... I wasn't inquiring about the acceptabilityof trying to DObusiness on the list. I wade through enough spam each day without addinganother source.There are plenty of places on the web to promote and advertise; thisshouldn't be one ofthem. My question was whether it wasacceptable to discussquestions about running a rodmaking business that aren't directly relatedto the makingof the rod. Since I haven't seen any strong negativereactions to myoriginal request, I'll provide an example. Please let me know if it isinappropriate forRodmakers and I'll try to locate another forum for these type ofquestions. from limited research, I see thatmanufacturers of sportfishing equipment are liable for a Federal Excise Tax of 10% on the salesprice of arod. The IRS description of what is and is not subject to the tax leaveslittle wiggleroom, and I'm fairly certain that a bamboo fly rod would not be exempt.Does anyone knowof another regulation that would get rodmakers off the hook for this tax?Is there somesort of exemption that a simple craftsman with a small operation can takeadvantage of?If somebody out there is familiar with the excise tax; can a rod sale bebroken downinto a parts and labor type of sale that would exempt all but the materialscosts fromthe tax? Knowing that this is a public forum, I'dcertainlyunderstand if people were reluctant to discuss this particular issue. Ifanyone isinterested, I'd certainly be open to discussing it privately. Again, I apologize if this doesn't belong onRodmakers. Ifyou'd rather, we could discuss why the government feels they deserve 10%of the salesprice of a beautiful handmade tool that a craftsman constructed from afew strips ofexotic grass, a spool of thread, small amounts of wood, metal, cork, glueand varnish,and a whole lot of sweat. Each of these items gets taxed multiple timesbefore itbecomes a rod that casts a flyline, leader, and fly (that are also allsubject to theexcise tax!) onto the water. (I think I'd better go fishing...) -----OriginalMessage----- Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 4:18 PMSubject: Re: re. business Rick The reason is that this is a venue for the exchange of ideas andinformation on the craft of rodmaking. It is not a venue for self promotion and conductingbusiness. Anumberof the participants do have a business but we do not let it interfere withthe exchangeabout rodmakinggoing on. On the Rodmakers homepage there is lists of rodmakers whomake rods,components, andsell tools. That is enough. If we do not draw the line, then people wouldand have inthe past spam the list with their weekly promo, sale, or new product. If you think about it a bit, it will make sense to you. Chris --Original Message Text---From: R.A.FickDate: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:07 - 0500 I belong to other fishing lists as well asrodmakers andnot every thread is of interest to every lister, not possible. I haven't beenonrodmakers for very long, but I already am under the impression that anydiscussion of "business" is taboo. why?Is competition a bad thing? I thinknot. Rick --_=_=_=IMA.BOUNDARY.HTML_4862640=_=_=_-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat May 29 09:30:38 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sat, 29 May 1999 09:30:30 -0500 Subject: Re: carbide plane edge Tom,I'm pretty sure it was me who posted on this. Jerry Quinn isoffering the service, not me. I have a couple of blades thatJerry had done for me, and I'm very pleased. I just roughed out3 7.5' rods, 2 piece 2 tips each, (a total of 9 sections, 54strips) and have yet to need to re-sharpen.When you do have to re-sharpen, you need some sort of leatherwheel with diamond paste to cut the carbide. I use a rough copyof the method Tom Smithwick posted about a year ago. Tom hasposted some pictures at http://members.aol.com/tsmithwick You can contact Jerry at: Jerry Quinn Hope this helps,Harry Boyd Tom Hardy wrote: I don't remember who was doing this, but a while backsomeone was offering the chance to get in on having acarbide cutting edge welded onto a regular plane blade.Is it still possible to get in on this? Sounds veryinteresting.Thanks,Tom Hardy from cotner@novagate.com Sat May 29 10:05:46 1999 Subject: Excise tax for rodmakers I am a tax attorney, but not one that practices in the excise areamuch. I do have excise tax publications, though. For anyoneinterested, I can email IRS's Publication 510 - Excise Taxes for 1999 -to those responding off list. I'll include only the sections onmanufacturer's taxes and the return requirements. You can also getPublication 510 from:http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/forms_pubs/index.htmlFYI, tax deposits are not required - pay the tax due with yourquarterly return.Regards,Roger CotnerGrand Haven, Michigan from BThoman@neonsoft.com Sat May 29 15:13:44 1999 Subject: RE: camping I believe the reservation is 505863. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 -----Original Message-----From: BambooRods@aol.com [SMTP:BambooRods@aol.com]Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 7:54 PM Subject: camping I don't have my paper work with me but anyone wishing to "setup" as agroup can call the Park and have them check the reservation for Doug Hall andthey should give you the group number. I will post the proper number tues.after I retrieve the paperwork from my office.doug from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat May 29 15:48:32 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA29058; Sun, 30 May 1999 08:48:18 +1200 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers In New Zealand we have a goods and service tax system similar to salestax.You are required to take the cost of everything you pay someone else forgoods and services ( not wages)off the revenue you receive in each twomonthperiod , then pay 12.5% to the IRD on the difference. If your costs exceedyour revenue then they have to refund the overpayment of tax at the 12.5%. under this system. given most away to friends (? to assist sales in the future :))), the IRDhave had to pay me under this system!!!! . Both the IRD ( the much feared Inland Revenue Department) and I realisethisis not the way the tax system is meant to work. We are both anxiouslyawaiting the time when cane rods "takeoff" in new zealand so that I cancover my costs , and they can stop paying me . Iank At 11:06 AM 29/05/99 -0400, Roger Cotner wrote:I am a tax attorney, but not one that practices in the excise areamuch. I do have excise tax publications, though. For anyoneinterested, I can email IRS's Publication 510 - Excise Taxes for 1999 -to those responding off list. I'll include only the sections onmanufacturer's taxes and the return requirements. You can also getPublication 510 from:http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/forms_pubs/index.htmlFYI, tax deposits are not required - pay the tax due with yourquarterly return.Regards,Roger CotnerGrand Haven, Michigan from fiveside@net-gate.com Sat May 29 18:10:53 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02034 for; Subject: IRS and Rodmaking To the List,Jack Howell's book has a complete chapter on this subject which shouldanswer anyone's questions. Would be nice if this was the last word on thissubject as well as the other irritants. Isn't this is time for fishing (andplaning?). Bill from anglport@con2.com Sat May 29 18:24:03 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers Ian,As far as I know, our system NEVER pays ANYONE anything. Yours isdefinitely one we shoud aspire to!!!! If we lose, we lose alone and if wewin EVERYone shares in our good (?) fortune.Art At 08:48 AM 5/30/99 +1200, Ian Kearney wrote:In New Zealand we have a goods and service tax system similar to salestax.You are required to take the cost of everything you pay someone else forgoods and services ( not wages)off the revenue you receive in each twomonthperiod , then pay 12.5% to the IRD on the difference. If your costs exceedyour revenue then they have to refund the overpayment of tax at the12.5% . under this system. given most away to friends (? to assist sales in the future :))), the IRDhave had to pay me under this system!!!! . Both the IRD ( the much feared Inland Revenue Department) and I realisethisis not the way the tax system is meant to work. We are both anxiouslyawaiting the time when cane rods "takeoff" in new zealand so that I cancover my costs , and they can stop paying me . Iank At 11:06 AM 29/05/99 -0400, Roger Cotner wrote:I am a tax attorney, but not one that practices in the excise areamuch. I do have excise tax publications, though. For anyoneinterested, I can email IRS's Publication 510 - Excise Taxes for 1999 -to those responding off list. I'll include only the sections onmanufacturer's taxes and the return requirements. You can also getPublication 510 from:http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/prod/forms_pubs/index.htmlFYI, tax deposits are not required - pay the tax due with yourquarterly return.Regards,Roger CotnerGrand Haven, Michigan from tim_klein@email.msn.com Sat May 29 19:07:22 1999 SMTPSVC;Sat, 29 May 1999 17:06:52 -0700 Subject: Re: On Topic? I don't believe you're correct on what gets taxed. I already have IRSpublication (as others have already pointed out, it's #510 for anyoneinterested), and it states "A tax of 10% of the sale price is imposed onmany articles of sport fishing equipment sold by the manufacturer,producer,or importer" -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: On Topic? If you call the IRS they will send you a pamphlet that explains it indetail. Youwill need to get an EIN# (employer identification number) to pay the taxanywayand the 10% is on YOUR cost of the item. If you make & sell fishing gearthe fedssee you as a sport fishing tackle manufacturer. Look out Zebco here Icome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from brookie@frii.com Sat May 29 19:30:29 1999 Subject: Protocol on this list - available cane First, thanks for all the pvt posts re my question yesterdayabout where to direct a local lady who was wanting to sell herfather's flyfishing estate, to include a PHY cane. During theprocess, I learned a bit more about this cane business. Clearlythe bottom line on this issue is to tell her to get an appraisalbefore deciding anything. One wonders how many fine flyfishingantiques are sold off unknowingly by family members who just 'glad' to get rid of it... shudder. Now, the List protocol question. I do NOT see folks posting theavailability of cane on this List. Yes, I realize it's arodmaking list for the most part. But there are quite a fewfolks who must be users and collectors who would be interestedin cane. There are several outlets for this already, the ebay one, brokerage through several fine sources, to include on the Internet. Just having seen a thread about advertising rodmakers cane met withconfirmation that " it's just not done ". Not to pick nits here,but understand the rodmakers point of view here. But honestly, isthe RodM. list a place to post particulars (less asking price ) ofavailable cane ? your opinions please ?suecolorado from madcap@u.washington.edu Sat May 29 19:37:45 1999 SMTP idRAA14710 Subject: bronze thread I'd like to thank all the people who gave me advice on finding bronzethread. Thanks,Jun from briansr@point-net.com Sat May 29 19:46:59 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Protocol on this list - available cane Hi SueIt's perfectly OK IMHO. We all have our "wish lists" and love to see stufflike this. Two other members of this list come upon items every once in awhile generating considerable e-mail & excitement!!Cheers Brian-----Original Message----- Subject: Protocol on this list - available cane First, thanks for all the pvt posts re my question yesterdayabout where to direct a local lady who was wanting to sell herfather's flyfishing estate, to include a PHY cane. During theprocess, I learned a bit more about this cane business. Clearlythe bottom line on this issue is to tell her to get an appraisalbefore deciding anything. One wonders how many fine flyfishingantiques are sold off unknowingly by family members who just'glad' to get rid of it... shudder. Now, the List protocol question. I do NOT see folks posting theavailability of cane on this List. Yes, I realize it's arodmaking list for the most part. But there are quite a fewfolks who must be users and collectors who would be interestedin cane. There are several outlets for this already, the ebay one,brokerage through several fine sources, to include on the Internet. Just having seen a thread about advertising rodmakers cane met withconfirmation that " it's just not done ". Not to pick nits here,but understand the rodmakers point of view here. But honestly, isthe RodM. list a place to post particulars (less asking price ) ofavailable cane ? your opinions please ?suecolorado from hiltonl@benzie.com Sat May 29 19:55:55 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id AD3D30FD0154; Sat, 29 May 1999 20:58:37 EST RODMAKERS LIST Subject: Availability of carbide tipped planing irons Jerry,I got your name off the RodMakers List (), alist serve supported by the RodMakers Page(http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/). I know that you may be very familiarwith these sources, but if not, enjoy! It is my understanding from reading a post from a Harry Boyd, that youhave a process to weld carbide blades to planning irons. "Would yousend me the particulars on this process. I would be interested inirons for both a Stanley 9 1/2 block plane and for a Lie- Nielsonstandard angle block plane. Are they available from stock or do Isupply the irons. Cost? Turn-around? If you don't do any of this,please let me know, also. You may also want to let the RodMakers listaware, as well, because I have a feeling that you'll be hearing from afew of us. THANKS, and hope you enjoy your holiday weekend. LarryHilton from tim_klein@email.msn.com Sat May 29 20:55:23 1999 SMTPSVC;Sat, 29 May 1999 18:54:53 -0700 Subject: Re: re. business LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: ... they investigate these things in ways that we don't know.They know about a lot of "amateur" rod makers out there whoare making and selling rods and/or components (which are alsotaxable) and they are giving these guys a certain amount of time tocontactTHEM, before they contact YOU. hmmm, that reminds me... I haven't called my Big Brother in quite sometime... from saweiss@flash.net Sat May 29 22:07:42 1999 Subject: Kansas rodmakers boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01BEAA17.4CF8DC20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BEAA17.4CF8DC20 I received a call from a guy in Topeka, Kansas (referred from a local =flyshop) who has questions about repairs &/or refinishing of an old cane =rod. Anyone out there around Topeka that I can refer him to? Reply to my =e-mail address to minimize unnecessary traffic on the list.Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BEAA17.4CF8DC20 I received a call from a guy in = (referred from a local flyshop) who has questions about repairs &/or= refinishing of an old cane rod. Anyone out there around Topeka that I = him to? Reply to my e-mail address to minimize unnecessary traffic on = list.Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01BEAA17.4CF8DC20-- from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun May 30 01:27:39 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sun, 30 May 1999 06:27:03 +0000 Subject: Re: On Topic? It CAN really be useful, too, in that in matters of taxation theauthorities' philosophy is to divide and conquer. When I had my ownbusiness, I would have lost everything had it not been for two things:1) Joining with other companies when the sales tax authority (SBE)decidedto make a NEW ruling and make it retroactive backwards a few YEARS.2) They got greedy and went after Apple. Just be thankful if your problems are with the IRS instead of the SBE. Withthe SBE, you are considered guilty and CANNOT HAVE A HEARING BEFORE ACOURTOF LAW UNTIL AFTER YOU PAY WHATEVER THEY CLAIM YOU OWE!!!!! Also,with theSBE, you cannot recover costs (it NEVER costs THEM to be wrong)...I WONbutI was out $50k. The only satisfaction that I got was the idiot who causedme the grief was investigated by the State Attorney General on multiplecounts of expense account fraud (never did hear the outcome). George -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: On Topic? It wouldn't bother me, Because I wouldn't want to see any ofthe guys on the list get into trouble with the IRS. I was building rods forquite a while before I found out about the 10% excise tax that we aresupposed to be paying. Luckily, I contacted the IRS and took care of it,before they came knocking on my door. If any of the guys have questionsaboutthis, I think weshould try to set them in the right direction. Were else would they getthebest info, but from other rod builders? Dave LeClair from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun May 30 01:34:10 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: re. business -----Original Message----- ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: re. business It seems that even if you are an amateur rod maker and make a few rodsand Sell some of them, then you are liable forpaying the excise tax to the Fed. Government. The problem is,that they investigate these things in ways that we don't know. ^^^This from the same folks (IRS) who wanted 400,000 taxpayers toresubmit 3years worth of income tax filings because they left a computer tape atLAXand when they went back for it, it was gone!!! They DO depend on thisperception for compliance...but DO comply anyway. George from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun May 30 01:35:31 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sun, 30 May 1999 06:34:59 +0000 Subject: Re: On Topic? Usually, cost means parts AND manufacturing labor. George -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: On Topic? If you call the IRS they will send you a pamphlet that explains it indetail. Youwill need to get an EIN# (employer identification number) to pay the taxanywayand the 10% is on YOUR cost of the item. If you make & sell fishing gearthe fedssee you as a sport fishing tackle manufacturer. Look out Zebco here Icome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roger LECLAIR123@aol.com wrote: It wouldn't bother me, Because I wouldn't want to see any ofthe guys on the list get into trouble with the IRS. I was building rodsforquite a while before I found out about the 10% excise tax that we aresupposed to be paying. Luckily, I contacted the IRS and took care of it,before they came knocking on my door. If any of the guys have questionsaboutthis, I think weshould try to set them in the right direction. Were else would they getthebest info, but from other rod builders? Dave LeClair from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun May 30 01:42:13 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sun, 30 May 1999 06:41:41 +0000 Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers Interesting point in there that I'd like a bit more info on (if you, oranyone else knows):Are you saying that the excise tax is ONLY due if the item is manufacturedin the US? (If you take it to Mexico or Canada for manufacture, even ifONLY sold in the US, you owe NO excise tax?) George -----Original Message----- Subject: The IRS & Rodmakers Well at first I was hesitant to respond to such a daunting topic but itis an important issue to U.S. rodmakers who would like to sell theirrods. So I'll take a stab and give you an interpretation. First, I'm not a tax accountant so please don't depend on myinterpretation without doing some thorough tax research, consulting withthe IRS or someone qualified to do so. In the U.S., if you manufacture "Sport Fishing Equipment" for resale youare liable for Federal Excise Tax 720. In most cases the tax can beapplied to the wholesale price of the product sold after being adjusted the product. (60% of the retail price seems to be an acceptablewholesale price) 1) You sold rod for: $1000 (rod's retail price)2) Subtract 40% = $600 (rod's wholesale price)3) Subtract Fed Excise Tax paid on components - $25 (must have specificamounts you paid)4) Total amount liable for tax = $575 5) Federal Excise Tax 720 owed ( 10% ) = $57.50 You must file a Federal Tax Deposit Coupon quarterly with the taxpayment due. Even if you have no tax due it is recommended that you fileanyway as it shows you are attempting to comply with the law. Most of the time the manufacture hides the Excise tax in the retailprice of the rod so as not to confuse the customer. Now, it's not over yet. from the what I have been told by the IRS andothers is before you can even begin to file and pay for a Federal ExciseTax 720 you need to have a EIN (Employee Identification Number). Nokidding, you can't just use your SS# to file, you must have a EIN to bein full compliance. Even if you have no employees all business payingexcise taxes need a EIN to file. And to make matters worse getting anEIN from the IRS when you don't have employees can be tricky. Since someIRS people don't even know their own rules you might need to remindthemthat you are liable for excise taxes and that is why you are requestingan EIN. Sounds ridiculous, but true. Now, in regard to the Excise tax paid on components. Some ofyour>suppliers will list this tax on the invoice and some won't. If theydon't, you're pretty much out of luck. You can avoid paying this excisetax on components if you file a Form 637 for tax exemption. You willreceive a number from the IRS. Give this number to your suppliers andthey won't charge you the Excise tax on components. You also need tohave a EIN in order to file Form 637. The Excise tax ends up being paidin the end one way or another so the only ones I know who are using thisform are the larger companies who buy a lot of components. I understand that the tax is funneled back to the individual states tobe put to use in maintaining fisheries. Whether this is true or reallyenhances the quality of our fisheries I would hate to speculate. Again, please don't take my advise over a qualified tax accountant. I'mmerely trying to give an overview for those that might be interested.These laws can be quite confusing. Check out the rules and regulations --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sun May 30 01:43:50 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP Sun, 30 May 1999 06:43:17 +0000 Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers Barter IS taxable! So is forgiven debts and interest! George -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers An excellent reason to stick with the barter system...Best regards,Reed from chris@artistree.com Sun May 30 03:11:16 1999 Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers Now this sounds like a hidden subsidy. I think my my local congressionalrepresentative needs to hear about these foreign bamboo rod builderswhich are receiving hidden subsides from their governments. Clearly onecan see that an unfair advantage has been created and is threatening atreasured and integral part of our society. It would be a graveinjustice and disservice for our government not to provide the samesupport and more if need be to the bamboo fly rod manufacturers ofamerica (BFRMOA for short). Just kidding Ian...more power to ya! Regards,Chris Wohlford Ian Kearney wrote: In New Zealand we have a goods and service tax system similar to salestax.You are required to take the cost of everything you pay someone else forgoods and services ( not wages)off the revenue you receive in each twomonthperiod , then pay 12.5% to the IRD on the difference. If your costs exceedyour revenue then they have to refund the overpayment of tax at the12.5% . under this system. given most away to friends (? to assist sales in the future :))), the IRDhave had to pay me under this system!!!! . Both the IRD ( the much feared Inland Revenue Department) and I realisethisis not the way the tax system is meant to work. We are both anxiouslyawaiting the time when cane rods "takeoff" in new zealand so that I cancover my costs , and they can stop paying me . Iank from jonrc@atlantic.net Sun May 30 07:58:18 1999 berlin.atlantic.net(8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25428 for; Sun, 30 May 199908:58:16 -0400 rio.atlantic.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27853 for;Sun, 30 May 1999 08:58:14 -0400 Subject: Hello Hello everyone, Just a brief note to say hello to all my fellow rodmakers. I've beenoff the list for quite a while. I started a new "real" job that hastaken to much of my time. I'm still as busy as I want to be buildingrods too. I'm glad to be back on the list and will participate where Ican. Jon. from emiller257@dataflo.net Sun May 30 09:39:15 1999 wddataflo.dataflo.net(8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA03580 for ;Sun, 30 May 1999 Subject: Cane Rod Questions Now that I have built a couple of rods after years of studying the process, I have a couple of questions for the List. Why does an eight foot cane feel like a nine foot plastic rod ( long and powerful )? And, why is straight so hard to acheive?OBTW, the second rod is an 8 ft Payne from George Maurer's book and a very nice casting rod. I like it alot and am very pleased with its versatility. Great taper! Have a great holiday, all. Ed M. from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun May 30 09:42:22 1999 Sun, 30 May 1999 22:41:51 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers Hey Ian, we ANZACs better keep a watch out for yankee gunboats! Keep yerpowder & bamboo dry. ;-) Tony On Sun, 30 May 1999, Chris Wohlford wrote: Now this sounds like a hidden subsidy. I think my my local congressionalrepresentative needs to hear about these foreign bamboo rod builderswhich are receiving hidden subsides from their governments. Clearly onecan see that an unfair advantage has been created and is threatening atreasured and integral part of our society. It would be a graveinjustice and disservice for our government not to provide the samesupport and more if need be to the bamboo fly rod manufacturers ofamerica (BFRMOA for short). Just kidding Ian...more power to ya! Regards,Chris Wohlford Ian Kearney wrote: In New Zealand we have a goods and service tax system similar tosales tax.You are required to take the cost of everything you pay someone elseforgoods and services ( not wages)off the revenue you receive in each twomonthperiod , then pay 12.5% to the IRD on the difference. If your costsexceedyour revenue then they have to refund the overpayment of tax at the12.5% . caughtunder this system. havegiven most away to friends (? to assist sales in the future :))), the IRDhave had to pay me under this system!!!! . Both the IRD ( the much feared Inland Revenue Department) and Irealise thisis not the way the tax system is meant to work. We are both anxiouslyawaiting the time when cane rods "takeoff" in new zealand so that Icancover my costs , and they can stop paying me . Iank /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from SalarFly@aol.com Sun May 30 12:40:50 1999 Subject: What is Fast? The manufacturers of plastic rods define it as how far down towards the handle a rod flexes during a cast. If it flexesall the way down close to the handle it's slow. If most ofthe butt section doesn't flex it's fast. I've been experimenting with alternate geometries - quadand penta rods - and now I'm beginning to wonder. Thequads flex most of the way to the handle during a cast,but everyone who tests it has made to comment "Wow!That's fast!" One fairly well known fly fisherman in myarea commented that this rod will make the graphiteusers happy. The return from flexed to straight is quick with a quad.Of course if the butt section didn't flex there would beless time for the rod to straighten out, and would be evenfaster, but the "feel" would be less. The conclusion I am forming is a fast rod isn't necessarily one with a stiff butt, but one that returns from flexed to straight quickly. And, I believe it is possible to make arod that will flex all the way to the cork and still be fast. Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun May 30 14:11:03 1999 Subject: Re: What is Fast? Cane is cane the same as jello is jello.You can demonstrate the fast action of of a 7ft 'dry fly' cane rod toan angler that nomally fishes an 9ft graphite and he will beimpressed. He will not be impressed with a 9ft cane rod.You can cut the cane in as many strip configurations and tapers as youlike and they will never be 'graphite fast'.It is that controlled recovery from bending that makes cane such adelight so why would we want to change it?T. Ackland SalarFly@aol.com wrote: The manufacturers of plastic rods define it as how far downtowards the handle a rod flexes during a cast. If it flexesall the way down close to the handle it's slow. If most ofthe butt section doesn't flex it's fast. I've been experimenting with alternate geometries - quadand penta rods - and now I'm beginning to wonder. Thequads flex most of the way to the handle during a cast,but everyone who tests it has made to comment "Wow!That's fast!" One fairly well known fly fisherman in myarea commented that this rod will make the graphiteusers happy. The return from flexed to straight is quick with a quad.Of course if the butt section didn't flex there would beless time for the rod to straighten out, and would be evenfaster, but the "feel" would be less. The conclusion I am forming is a fast rod isn't necessarilyone with a stiff butt, but one that returns from flexed tostraight quickly. And, I believe it is possible to make arod that will flex all the way to the cork and still be fast. Darryl from chris@artistree.com Sun May 30 14:23:50 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers Now Tony, I know you meant to say "yankee drift boats" and keep your"flies" and "bamboo" dry :) Chris Tony Young wrote: Hey Ian, we ANZACs better keep a watch out for yankee gunboats! Keepyerpowder & bamboo dry. ;-) from lathebaby@yahoo.com Sun May 30 15:16:03 1999 1999 13:14:35 PDT Subject: test new mail test again!!!!!!!!! _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sun May 30 15:49:26 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA10965; Mon, 31 May 1999 08:49:02 +1200 Subject: Re: Excise tax for rodmakers Chris We could do an international trade deal here . If the USA removes itssubsidy and protection on US produced dairy products New Zealand willremoveits subsidy on cane rods. To be ideologically pure the goal must be toremove all subsidies , not introduce new ones , even if that means asacrifice by USA rodmakers. Ian Kearney ps. I am involved with the dairy industry here and should declare a conflictof interest . :)) At 01:16 AM 30/05/99 +0000, Chris Wohlford wrote:Now this sounds like a hidden subsidy. I think my my local congressionalrepresentative needs to hear about these foreign bamboo rod builderswhich are receiving hidden subsides from their governments. Clearly onecan see that an unfair advantage has been created and is threatening atreasured and integral part of our society. It would be a graveinjustice and disservice for our government not to provide the samesupport and more if need be to the bamboo fly rod manufacturers ofamerica (BFRMOA for short). Just kidding Ian...more power to ya! Regards,Chris Wohlford from brookie@frii.com Sun May 30 17:37:27 1999 Subject: Hardy rod / and reel hi List, well gathering from the few comments I got, there is noproblem with the now-and-again posting about available canethat friends say they have or know about. The email that came to me a couple of days ago is from achap in New Zealand, he says : A fishing buddy, Bill Benfield, has some Hardy bamboo gear for sale. Details below. If yr interested, plse contact him direct at : bendel@xtra.co.nz Rod is Hardy Halford "Knockabout", 9'6" 2 piece. Circa 1929/30. No.E17789. Top joint rebuilt c.1956/8 using Hardy blank, by Tisdalls rod makers I'm pretty sure, hence varnish a bit newer& paler. Reel with the rod, Hardy St George 3 & 3/8", full agate face ring, 3 screw latch plate, and threaded foot to match rod, complete with spare (unused) ratchet & spring. Whole lot in good working order. Like to know what they think in the states, it's actually a nice fishing rod if you are used to quite slow actions, very good at laying a very gentle line. ~~~~~~~~~there ya have it. me not knowing much yet about cane, don't knowif this rod/reel would be of interest, but you never know. suecolorado from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun May 30 20:07:45 1999 Mon, 31 May 1999 09:06:38 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: re. business Compared to our tax guys those in the US, especially the BSE boys soundlike they belong in the middle ages and that they get around with poleaxesand executioner cowels over their heads.The Kiwis sound downright friendly. Ours is easy. Just decide what markup a wholesaler would make if it was sold to a shop ie. approx 20% on top of their cost, add 22% sales to thatamount and payup. This generaly works out at about 32.3% tax! I said itwas easy, it's also like being clubed with a blunt instrument. Tony On Sat, 29 May 1999, irish-george wrote: -----Original Message-----From: LECLAIR123@aol.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 6:56 PMSubject: Re: re. business It seems that even if you are an amateur rod maker and make a few rodsand Sell some of them, then you are liable forpaying the excise tax to the Fed. Government. The problem is,that they investigate these things in ways that we don't know. ^^^This from the same folks (IRS) who wanted 400,000 taxpayers toresubmit 3years worth of income tax filings because they left a computer tape atLAXand when they went back for it, it was gone!!! They DO depend on thisperception for compliance...but DO comply anyway. George /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun May 30 20:27:38 1999 Subject: It might just work after all! As some of you know, I've been hacking (in my case the word is hacking!)myway through my first rod. At this point all I have done are the initialrough 60 degree bevels on my rod strips. Well, tonight after finishingthem, I decided to see if they would actually form a hex shape, andmiracleof miracle, they actually did!!I realize I'm a long way from a completed rod, but it was nice to know thatI'm on the right track anyway! Also, I know I'm slow at doing this, but I've also had to spend some timewith my new lathe (13" southbend) that I've been waiting for for 3years--and it's a real humdinger! Well, I'm enjoying building my tomato stake, and again want to thank allyouguys who've been so helpful!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from mschaffer@mindspring.com Mon May 31 06:33:20 1999 Subject: Technique question for the list Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed that theyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudge factor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enough tosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 31 07:39:56 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A37A2980266; Mon, 31 May 1999 06:41:30 MST Subject: Re: Technique question for the list At 07:32 AM 5/31/99 -0400, michael w. shaffer wrote:Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed that theyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudge factor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enough tosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) doc;Straighten away! just be carefull that you don't scorch into the part ofthe strip that will be in the finished section. At this point, i use thelower heat setting on my 2 speed gun. as for blond or not, at this pointyou are pretty much committed to the color, other than whatever changeyouget from heat treating. I know a lot of guys wait to sand their stripsuntil after the rod is glued, but I like to sand after heat treating, justbefore I finish plane, I find i get more accurate strips if I go into it asflat as possible. good LuckJohn from dpeaston@wzrd.com Mon May 31 07:54:38 1999 Subject: Re: What is Fast? At 01:40 PM 5/30/1999 EDT, SalarFly@aol.com wrote: The manufacturers of plastic rods define it as how far down towards the handle a rod flexes during a cast. If it flexesall the way down close to the handle it's slow. If most ofthe butt section doesn't flex it's fast. I've been experimenting with alternate geometries - quadand penta rods - and now I'm beginning to wonder. Thequads flex most of the way to the handle during a cast,but everyone who tests it has made to comment "Wow!That's fast!" One fairly well known fly fisherman in myarea commented that this rod will make the graphiteusers happy. The return from flexed to straight is quick with a quad.Of course if the butt section didn't flex there would beless time for the rod to straighten out, and would be evenfaster, but the "feel" would be less. The conclusion I am forming is a fast rod isn't necessarily one with a stiff butt, but one that returns from flexed to straight quickly. And, I believe it is possible to make arod that will flex all the way to the cork and still be fast. Darryl All, I just got to try out a couple of Tom Smithwick's spiral rods at the GrandRiver Gathering over the weekend. The subjective experience is similar toyours with the quads and pentas. The deflection is similar to other bamboorods but the sense of strength and "power" is remarkable. People whonevercast over 60 ft with an 8 foot 6 wt are almost able to throw the wholeline. It seems that these rods recover from flex quicker and moreefficiently. Tom says he has no idea why. All I can say is try it, you willlike it! PS. Ted Knott and his crew did one fine job organizing and executing theGrand Gathering (3rd annual). Word is, however, there will not be anotheruntil 2001 (A Bamboo Odyssey). Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon May 31 08:08:49 1999 don") bysmtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Mon, 31 May 199907:08:32 - 0600 Subject: Re: Technique question for the list At 07:32 AM 5/31/99 -0400, michael w. shaffer wrote:Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed that theyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudge factor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enough tosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Mike, Reflattening nodes is no big thing. Depending on the width of the stripsyou initially split and as you plane the outside edges off, the strip willwant to assume original shape. I often restraighten as many a 3 timesduring the planing process. And sometimes the strip needs to bestraightened during planing because the grain is causing chipping. No sweat - Don Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from utzerath@execpc.com Mon May 31 09:04:11 1999 0500 Subject: Heating and straightening question boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAB44.73BC5200" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAB44.73BC5200 I'm back to bamboo studies (finished some plastic rod commitments). I'm=doing some noded and some nodeless pieces to repair some inexpensive =project rods for practice before I start the memorable number 1. While straightening out the bows and bends in the nodeless sections, =enjoying the palm oil odor, it occurs to me that I am doing a lot of =uncontrolled heat treating. Why do we measure our heat treating to =the degree and minute while we happily cook our splits interminably over=an alcohol lamp?? Also, If someone has a few South Bend mid-to-tip step ferrules they'd =like to match up and sell, please contact me off-list. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAB44.73BC5200 I'm back to bamboo studies(finished = = repair some inexpensive project rods for practice before I start the = number 1. While straightening out the bowsand = the nodeless sections, enjoying the palm oil odor, it occurs to me that = our heat treating to the degree and minute while we happily cook our = interminably over an alcohol lamp?? Also, If someone has a few South= off-list. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEAB44.73BC5200-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon May 31 10:45:23 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Mon, 31 May 1999 10:45:17 -0500 ,channer , rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Technique question for the list John and Don,I need a clarification here. Are you saying that re-flattening orre-straightening a node in a vise works okay after you have the strip in60*triangles? Doesn't that crush the apex of the triangle? I concede thatstraightening with finger pressure works. But I'm a little hesitant to putthestrip back in the vise after rough planing for fear of crushing the thing.Some time ago, a fellow lister from Mississippi and I had a discussionaboutour horrible heat and humidity in the deep South causing nodes and otherbendsto re-appear. I've struggled with the same thing. My only solution so faristo be sure I have the nodes flat and straight before heat treating. Afterheattreating, I try to keep the strips in either an air-tight dessicant filledtube,or a heated drying cabinet.Then again, I'm still learning, and suspect I will be for as long as I buildrods. Any input is appreciated. --- Good question, Doc.Harry michael w. shaffer wrote: Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed that theyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudge factor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enough tosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon May 31 13:02:19 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: PHY - JJ`s rod Hello Listmembers Found the following in my archives: Can anyone enlighten as towhom is JJ, and what is the story of his rod? Doesn't look aslike a PHY taper to me (swelled butt) Quote: JJ's rod - 7' 4wtPlaning Form Setting Report-- from Dimensions------------------------------------------------------------------------ Design Notes: This is a taper based upon JJ's rod. Original measurementswere taken over varnish and adjusted. The rod is believed tobe a Paul Young. There were several areas that I had to makeinterpretations of the taper and did some smoothing in hexrodto insure a good stress curve. This has turned out to be onesweetcasting rod that a number of people commented upon. Whenyou build this rod please remember JJ while you do it.- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Rod Design Parameters:Rod Length: 7 ft 0 in (= 84 inches) Action Length: 6 ft 3 in (= 75 inches) Line Weight: 4 Pieces: 2 Line Fished: 30 ft Tip Factor: 1.048 Ferrule Type: Standard Ferrule #1: Size 12/64; Wt 0.225 oz.; Rod Dim 11.72/64 @ 42 in Planing Form Adjustment 0.0010 --------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Station Rod Dimension Station Setting0 0.074 0.03805 0.082 0.042010 0.104 0.053015 0.116 0.059020 0.132 0.067025 0.148 0.075030 0.160 0.081035 0.172 0.087040 0.180 0.091045 0.188 0.095050 0.200 0.101055 0.216 0.109060 0.234 0.118065 0.260 0.131070 0.300 0.151075 0.350 0.1750------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ Answers will be appreciated. regards, Carsten from saweiss@flash.net Mon May 31 14:10:04 1999 Subject: Re: PHY - JJ`s rod Carsten,Read "J.J. Lives", in The Planing Form, #55 Jan/Feb 1999Steve Found the following in my archives: Can anyone enlighten as towhom is JJ, and what is the story of his rod? Doesn't look aslike a PHY taper to me (swelled butt) Quote: JJ's rod - 7' 4wtPlaning Form Setting Report-- from Dimensions------------------------------------------------------------------------ Design Notes: This is a taper based upon JJ's rod. Original measurementswere taken over varnish and adjusted. The rod is believed tobe a Paul Young. There were several areas that I had to makeinterpretations of the taper and did some smoothing inhexrodto insure a good stress curve. This has turned out to be onesweetcasting rod that a number of people commented upon. Whenyou build this rod please remember JJ while you do it.- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Rod Design Parameters:Rod Length: 7 ft 0 in (= 84 inches)Action Length: 6 ft 3 in (= 75 inches) Line Weight: 4Pieces: 2Line Fished: 30 ftTip Factor: 1.048Ferrule Type: StandardFerrule #1: Size 12/64; Wt 0.225 oz.; Rod Dim 11.72/64 @ 42 in Planing Form Adjustment 0.0010----------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Station Rod Dimension Station Setting0 0.074 0.03805 0.082 0.042010 0.104 0.053015 0.116 0.059020 0.132 0.067025 0.148 0.075030 0.160 0.081035 0.172 0.087040 0.180 0.091045 0.188 0.095050 0.200 0.101055 0.216 0.109060 0.234 0.118065 0.260 0.131070 0.300 0.151075 0.350 0.1750------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ Answers will be appreciated. regards, Carsten from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon May 31 14:45:21 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: PHY - JJ`s rod Roger & Steven Thanks for a speedy reply covering the JJ rod. regards, Carsten from cbogart@shentel.net Mon May 31 16:24:55 1999 Subject: Re: PHY - JJ`s rod Carsten The planing form has my account of the rod and JJ. A number ofpeople in Grayling (where John Johnson aka J.J. guided and tied flies) all have seenthe rod andit is indeed a Paul Young rod. However, there is a whole suite of rods that weregenerated from an infamous barrel that Paul had in the shop. According to legend, whenever Paul needed to quickly create a rod(usually afterone of his drinking binges or for one of his drinking buddies) he would just reachinto thebarrel and grab a butt and tip section and and make a rod. Most likely these were blanks that hehad obtained from Southbend or Heddon. J.J.s original rod taper shows the characteristics ofbeing made from productionrod blank sections. So is it a PHY rod - yes, is it one of his more famous tapers - no,does itcatch fish - yes. Chris On Mon, 31 May 1999 13:10:09 -0600, Steven Weiss wrote: Carsten,Read "J.J. Lives", in The Planing Form, #55 Jan/Feb 1999Steve Found the following in my archives: Can anyone enlighten as towhom is JJ, and what is the story of his rod? Doesn t look aslike a PHY taper to me (swelled butt) Quote: JJ's rod - 7' 4wtPlaning Form Setting Report-- from Dimensions------------------------------------------------------------------------ Design Notes: This is a taper based upon JJ's rod. Original measurementswere taken over varnish and adjusted. The rod is believed tobe a Paul Young. There were several areas that I had to makeinterpretations of the taper and did some smoothing inhexrodto insure a good stress curve. This has turned out to be onesweetcasting rod that a number of people commented upon. Whenyou build this rod please remember JJ while you do it.- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Rod Design Parameters:Rod Length: 7 ft 0 in (= 84 inches)Action Length: 6 ft 3 in (= 75 inches) Line Weight: 4Pieces: 2Line Fished: 30 ftTip Factor: 1.048Ferrule Type: StandardFerrule #1: Size 12/64; Wt 0.225 oz.; Rod Dim 11.72/64 @ 42 in Planing Form Adjustment 0.0010----------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Station Rod Dimension Station Setting0 0.074 0.03805 0.082 0.042010 0.104 0.053015 0.116 0.059020 0.132 0.067025 0.148 0.075030 0.160 0.081035 0.172 0.087040 0.180 0.091045 0.188 0.095050 0.200 0.101055 0.216 0.109060 0.234 0.118065 0.260 0.131070 0.300 0.151075 0.350 0.1750------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ Answers will be appreciated. regards, Carsten from channer@hubwest.com Mon May 31 17:20:12 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AB7E5EF022A; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:21:50 MST Subject: Re: Technique question for the list At 10:43 AM 5/31/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:John and Don,I need a clarification here. Are you saying that re-flattening orre-straightening a node in a vise works okay after you have the strip in60*triangles? Doesn't that crush the apex of the triangle? I concede thatstraightening with finger pressure works. But I'm a little hesitant toput thestrip back in the vise after rough planing for fear of crushing the thing.Some time ago, a fellow lister from Mississippi and I had a discussionaboutour horrible heat and humidity in the deep South causing nodes and otherbendsto re-appear. I've struggled with the same thing. My only solution sofar isto be sure I have the nodes flat and straight before heat treating. Afterheattreating, I try to keep the strips in either an air-tight dessicant filledtube,or a heated drying cabinet.Then again, I'm still learning, and suspect I will be for as long as Ibuildrods. Any input is appreciated. --- Good question, Doc.Harry Harry;I have done so many times, you just can't crank down quite so hard. i willadmit that most of the time, if the strip need work after rough beveling,finger pressure usually works better. Sometimes the little dips in front ofthe node cause me more trouble than the node itself. Can't help with theclimate troubles you have, even when it rains here the humidity in my shoponly gets up to about 65%.John from jczimny@dol.net Mon May 31 18:06:37 1999 -0400 Rodmakers Subject: RE: Urac cure time It depend upon how thin on spreads the glue. In a quart can at 70 F, itmight take ayear.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Urac cure time Mr. Zimny, Do you have any ideas as to the cure time of Urac without a catalyst?Would it befeasible to use it this way? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "J. C. Zimny" wrote: Even if one were to fail to add a catylist to urea formaldehyde resin itwilleventually "cure".Heat accelerates the polymerization process. As long as you keep itabove 50degrees F during this process, it will cure. It will not show anyappreciabledifferences in hardness or strength no matter the post cure (or not) thatisused.John Z "Thoman, Brian" wrote: Joe Arguello uses 1 hour at 150* to cure URAC. He's made many, manyrodsusing this time and has yet to have any problems. He seemed torememberbeing able to heat cure the glue in 9 minutes so I chose my differenttimesto see what the results would be. I don't have any documentation withtheURAC other than what was on the can. Remember, the URAC sections that I tested that were cured atdifferenttemperatures never failed. I would love to have a spec sheet on URACtofind out what they suggest for heat curing but my times seemed tohaveworked. I have a scrap tip section that I glued and heat cured at 250*andit seems to have the same elasticity as any other rod. I'm still playingaround but if someone has the documentation that provides times I'dlove tohear them. Brian -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 2:57 PM Cc: 'Rodmakers'Subject: Re: Slightly Scientific Glue Test I cannot put my hands on it at the moment but I have a spec sheetfromCyanamid It canbecured using heat which speeds up the curing to about 5 minutes forlargestdiameter rod sections. I also seem to remember that the maximumcuringtemp isfar below 300deg which is enough to ruin the glue line making itpowderyandweak.I always find it easier to follow to the letter the manufacturersrecommendations than to experiment, after all they have researchfacilities thatare a cut above our basements.Formaldehyde glues are great for rod building but an understanding oftheirlimitation is really necessary.T. Ackland "Thoman, Brian" wrote: I've been curious to know if heat curing glues at differenttemperaturesfordifferent times actually made a big difference as to whattemperaturetheglue would fail. These are my results and I believe there's going tobealot of "I told you so's" as well as surprise. Keep in mind I'm not ascientist but I believe these give us a good idea. I tested Nyatex, G2 (an epoxy), Shell Epon and URAC. I heat curedthegluesat different temperatures. I chose the Nyatex times according tothedocumentation. I had no documentation for the Epon so I used boththeNyatex and URAC time. If anyone knows a better time let me knowandI'lltest it too. There times were as follows: 1. Nyatex - 2 hours 40 minutes at 250*2. Nyatex - 8 minutes at 300*3. G2 - no heat treatment, from a section 1 1/2 years old that wasairdried4. Shell Epon - 1 hour at 150*5. Shell Epon - 8 minutes at 300*6. URAC - 1 hour at 150*7. URAC - 15 minutes at 250*8. URAC - 9 minutes at 300* Each section was not the same diameter but all pieces were flamed. I'mnotsure the size actually matters seeing as any failure at any diameterinarod is still a failure. The URAC that I tested was using Joe Arguello's formula. He got theoriginal formula from George Maurer and did some tweaking to gettherightconsistency. It involves ammonium chloride and water instead ofthewalnutshells. And, the results: 150* - 15 minutes = no failures 200* - 5 minutes = 2 and 8 failed (both Nyatex)10 minutes = 4 softened but no failure (Epon) 250* - 5 minutes = 3, 4 and 5 failed (G2 and Epon) 300* - 5 minutes = no failures10 minutes = no failures 350* - 5 minutes = no failure, actually, the bamboo broke on 8beforetheglue Conclusions. I've got to admit I thought the URAC would fail first.But,the Nyatex failed first at 200* and the rest of the epoxies failed at250*.I never found a temperature at which the URAC failed. I gave up at350*thinking that's beyond what I'm going to store my rod. Brian ThomanThe Chattahoochee River Rod CompanyParker, Coloradohttp://www.bambooflyrods.com303.805.5733 from jaquin@netsync.net Mon May 31 19:07:33 1999 Mon, 31 May 1999 20:06:09 -0400 Subject: Re: canes and reels WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Sue, I don't know that one trout reel is measurably better than another.After all, it needn't do a heck of a lot more than hold the line,since most of us don't get into trout large enough to burn out thebearings or the breaking system. If you DO, however, then thequestion becomes rather more relevant. offered by any of a dozen current manufacturers), is light weight.And that reduces your choices down to only two or three manufacturers-- the Orvis CFO, the Hardy Flyweight or Featherweight, or Lamson.Only these, offer reels coming in around the three ounce zipcode. Folks talk about the need for a "balanced" rod and reel, but Ibelieve this idea to be entirely bogus. Nothing kills the action ofan otherwise excellent rod more thanunnecessary weight -- and ounces count enormously. For the life ofme, I don't understand why there are so many four, five and six ouncereels out there competing for the "high-end" market. There is noreason why a reel that is meant to be used for a 3-5 weight rod shouldweigh more than 3.25 ounces, and I don't understand why fly fisherswould put up with anything in excess of that. Cheers, Bill From: Sue K. Subject: canes and reelsDate: Monday, May 17, 1999 6:16 AM At 08:44 PM 5/16/1999 EDT, you wrote:Bret,I have a Dennison reel that I use on my five footone weight. It does work great. I got mine last year. A friendpicked it up for me at some place up in the Adorondacks.It was $75.00 . I don't know if they are still available anywere? I'll keep my eyes open for you. Interesting, and maybe this thread would best be servedover on Wayne's new 'chat' area instead of here, but letme go for it anyway. Remember, I'm the one with the 'couple of canes', my favoritebeing a little 6'6" 3 wt. Put a little Hardy FLYWEIGHT onit, and in my opinion, it matches perfectly. Both in holdingthe line, and pleasing looks that "work" with the cane ! Let me try the question out then, cane builders/owners areoften enamored with not only the cane, but the hardware,wrappings, and I suppose the reel and line that will complimentthe cane. Curious if there IS a preferred cane reel out there ? Just to give you an example, I have a little ryall and a little rossthat don't 'fit' aesthetically with the cane. That's the only wayI can put it. But that little Hardy ? mmmm sweet ! even ifshe does make a tad bit o' noise *S*hi bill, at the "grand" gathering in fergus ON, J.Austin Forbesdisplayed some lovely reels, at perfect weights for bamboo rods. Ifanyone is looking for a great reel at a good price/quality ratio, ihighly recommend them. jerry from jaquin@netsync.net Mon May 31 19:40:32 1999 Mon, 31 May 1999 20:39:09 -0400 Subject: Re: carbide plane edge Tom Hardy wrote: I don't remember who was doing this, but a while backsomeone was offering the chance to get in on having acarbide cutting edge welded onto a regular plane blade.Is it still possible to get in on this? Sounds veryinteresting.Thanks,Tom Hardyhi tom, i am offering a service to rodmakers, who want their planeblades carbide-tipped. contact me off-list. will be doing another runof blades shortly. jerry