from dmanders@telusplanet.net Tue Jun 1 08:28:12 1999 don") bysmtp2.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Tue, 1 Jun 199907:27:56 - 0600 Subject: Re: Technique question for the list rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu At 10:43 AM 5/31/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:John and Don,I need a clarification here. Are you saying that re-flattening orre-straightening a node in a vise works okay after you have the strip in60*triangles? Yupe - got ahead and do it - long as you don't leave the straighteninguntil you're about 0.030" over the final - after that the apex gets a tadmangled. Still, I plane the apex about 0.005" anyway. Doesn't that crush the apex of the triangle? I concede thatstraightening with finger pressure works. But I'm a little hesitant toput thestrip back in the vise after rough planing for fear of crushing the thing. No sweat - see above Some time ago, a fellow lister from Mississippi and I had a discussionaboutour horrible heat and humidity in the deep South causing nodes and otherbendsto re-appear. I've struggled with the same thing. My only solution sofar isto be sure I have the nodes flat and straight before heat treating. Afterheattreating, I try to keep the strips in either an air-tight dessicant filledtube,or a heated drying cabinet. You might try to straighten the strips wet - John Bokstrom does it as wellas he has lead others down the path. Works just fine. Seems like themoisture carries the heat directly through the cane thereby making surethat all of the heat effected area is straight - not the outside fibersholding the inner fibers straight. I would expect that damper climes wouldhave problems like that - don't know - I live where it's fairly dry. Just athought. Don Then again, I'm still learning, and suspect I will be for as long as Ibuildrods. Any input is appreciated. --- Good question, Doc.Harry michael w. shaffer wrote: Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed thattheyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudgefactor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enoughtosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from tball@mail.portup.com Tue Jun 1 08:52:10 1999 Subject: 3 Jaw Chuck boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00 I have a Craftsman table top metal lathe I need some advise on. It is =old but still works fairly good for what I do with it. When trying to =use it to turn down the blank at the ferrule station, I have to use a 4 =jaw chuck because it is the only one with the hole thru it. The =question is, can I bore out the 3 jaw chuck without harming its working =ability? Both chucks are screw on and the thread seat does have a hole =bored thru. The hole is about .332 as best as I can measure. Any help =is appreciated.Tom from =Trout Lake ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00 I have a = ferrule station, I have to use a 4 jaw chuck because it is the only one = = Tom from Trout Lake ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00-- from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Tue Jun 1 09:09:11 1999 out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA57424 for; Tue,1 Jun 1999 14:09:07 GMT Subject: Re: Technique question for the list What about using final forms & a Quick Clamp (or similar)& a small stripof aluminum to spread pressure, instead of vice. Strip would besupported & straightened on sides as well.CheersCraig from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Tue Jun 1 12:39:16 1999 Subject: Re: What is Fast? Word is, however, there will not be another until 2001 (A BambooOdyssey). from stpete@netten.net Tue Jun 1 13:50:04 1999 Subject: Rodmaker's jones I've just spent half an hour with the tech service at my ISP to rectifya problem with my e-mail. I have been trying to rejoin rodmakers forthe last 5 days. Seems my server changed some settings and otherservers don't refresh their settings info but every so often. ANYWAY, I was unaware how isolated I would feel if cut off from thisgroup! Man, I've learned a lot from you guys/gals and was in a nearpanic over the thought of no longer having access to this resource. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone!" Hope I'm really back in, Rick C. from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Tue Jun 1 16:47:11 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Technique question for the list I've heard of someone using an old iron on nodes in the forms. Brian from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Jun 1 18:06:30 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7BBDF020E; Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:07:39 EDT Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers Chris,Too true, Chris, but the value of the rods and the other items used inbarter are very subjective. The barter system is not tax-exempt, butneitherdoes it represent, to most, an ethical dilemma; nor, IMHO, should it.Theoretically, there is no gain on either side in such a transaction; notangible profit, nothing to declare. "So-and-so gave me 4 reels for a rod"isakin to the innocence of trading baseball cards. [Better strike the allusiontobaseball cards, that's now big business.]The only unambiguous means of determining value accepted by thecitizenry isthrough the common currency. If I have an old, no-name, 9' rod thatsomeonecovets, and they have something that only I, in all this world, findinteresting(probably a 10' wet fly rod) our currency-less transaction has nodiscernablevalue to the state. I will willingly "render to Caesar that which isCaesar's"but he better have a clear way of defining his needs.Best regards,Reed CALucker@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/29/99 6:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,rcurry@ttlc.netwrites: Best regards, >>You are not exempt from the tax even though you only use the bartersystem. from brookie@frii.com Tue Jun 1 18:35:42 1999 Subject: well now, found a classy reel !! Thanks to Jerry Q for giving me this : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.html classy little 'bronze' reel this Forbes is. Only observation ?check out the line that is on that reel, if it is indeed line,might be silk, or might just be backing. the one thing I cannot envision is a bright dayglo green or peach or ? on thatreel. would HAVE to pop for some classy line ! now I'm not in the market for reels right now, but this one gets put into a file to look at later ! suecolorado from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jun 1 18:45:57 1999 Subject: Size 24 ferrules All, I recently pickup up some new (old stock) hand-welted, serrated ferrulessets and if anyone is builting light weight 6' 3 wt's and can use some 24/64ths (3/8") NS ferrules sets, please email me off list. They're "leonard" style (not LEONARD as in Leonard Rods, but Leonard patent-style) that have a straight tube female and shouldered male. Theyseem to be plated with unpolished chrome. I've got 10 sets. I've also 10 sets of truncated, reinforced NS ferrules (not plated) in about (need to measure) 16/64ths. So if anyone is builting some ocean rods or heavy duty salmon rods - now's your chance to stock up at a good price. I'll scan and send a JPG to anyone that's interested. EMAIL ME OFF LIST!!!!! Don Burns Canerods@aol.com PS - Yes, they're size 24 and yes I know that they're not for 3 wt rods! from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jun 1 19:19:38 1999 Subject: RE: Size 24 ferrules Sounds like the perfect thing for rods with a swelledmid section instead of a swelled butt. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Canerods@aol.comSent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 7:44 PM Subject: Size 24 ferrules All, I recently pickup up some new (old stock)hand-welted, serrated ferrules setsand if anyone is builting light weight 6' 3wt's and can use some 24/64ths(3/8") NS ferrules sets, please email me off list. They're "leonard" style (not LEONARD as inLeonard Rods, but Leonardpatent- style) that have a straight tubefemale and shouldered male. They seemto be plated with unpolished chrome. I'vegot 10 sets. I've also 10 sets of truncated, reinforcedNS ferrules (not plated) in about(need to measure) 16/64ths. So if anyone is builting some ocean rods orheavy duty salmon rods - now'syour chance to stock up at a good price. I'll scan and send a JPG to anyone that'sinterested. EMAIL ME OFF LIST!!!!! Don Burns Canerods@aol.com PS - Yes, they're size 24 and yes I knowthat they're not for 3 wt rods! from MasjC1@aol.com Tue Jun 1 19:44:51 1999 Subject: Re: Technique question for the list The last two rods I built I soaked the strips overnight and then did the flattening and straightening. It was much faster -- not as much timespent heating -- than doing dry strips. On the last rod I took a single strip from its soaking bath directly through the flattening, straightening and planedto initial 60 degrees. from the form it went into my drying cabinet for aweek. I then started the final planing. This process worked well for me. The final proof will come in July when I will take the rods fishing in Colorado. Like others on the list in high humidity areas I had problems withhumidity here in Houston. I keep my strips in my drying cabinet at 100 degreesuntil the rod is completed. This has solved most of my problems with bends and nodes not staying straight. Mark Cole from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue Jun 1 19:54:35 1999 Subject: Re: 3 Jaw Chuck Tom,I see no reason why you can't drill a hole through yourthree jaw chuck. All the chucks I've had here in my shop formy lathes, all had a hole through it. Drilling a hole through itshouldn't hurt any of the jaw workings. Dave L.The Fly and Rod Room from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 1 21:20:23 1999 with ESMTP id ;Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:19:51 +0000 Subject: Re: well now, found a classy reel !! Sue, The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle a few at theNJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Is that their Thistle(sp?)? If so, it would be a great compliment to a good bamboo rod. Notsuch a terrible price either if I recall correctly... Dennis Sue K wrote: Thanks to Jerry Q for giving me this : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.html classy little 'bronze' reel this Forbes is. Only observation ?check out the line that is on that reel, if it is indeed line,might be silk, or might just be backing. the one thing I cannot envision is a bright dayglo green or peach or ? on thatreel. would HAVE to pop for some classy line ! now I'm not in the market for reels right now, but this onegets put into a file to look at later ! suecolorado from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Jun 1 21:31:44 1999 Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:31:09 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: 3 Jaw Chuck Tom,it's hard to see what the problem would be if you drilled a hole but you'dneed to ensure the hole is centred well as otherwise you may find thechuck the be unbalanced. I'm only guessing here but it dosn't take much. Tony On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Thomas Ball wrote: I have a Craftsman table top metal lathe I need some advise on. It is oldbut stillworks fairly good for what I do with it. When trying to use it to turn downthe blankat the ferrule station, I have to use a 4 jaw chuck because it is the onlyone with thehole thru it. The question is, can I bore out the 3 jaw chuck withoutharming itsworking ability? Both chucks are screw on and the thread seat does havea hole boredthru. The hole is about .332 as best as I can measure. Any help isappreciated.Tom from Trout Lake /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jun 2 07:53:43 1999 Subject: 2 strip quads Bill Fink and Dan Neuschafer each built a 2 strip quad after readingRichard Tyree's article in TPF. The rods both looked and cast better than I would have expected, so I thought I would try one myself. Both Bill and Dan had trouble with straightness, not suprising since the strips were bound upwhen the thickness has been planed, but not the width. The blank is thereforevery irregular at this stage, and next to impossible to straighten while the glue is wet. I had much better luck not binding at all. I got the strips as straight as possible before planing, both at the nodes and in the internodal area. I glued them up after planing the thickness by clamping themtogether along the edge of an angle iron. I used small spring clamps placed every inch. A plastic tape was run along the angle iron to act as a glue release. This method left me with only a few very minor kinks.Bill and Dan built one piece rods, I adapted the taped splice "ferrule" method, which was also successful. I didn't keep track of building time,but doubt that I have more than 12-15 hours in the rod, start to finish. I did everything I could to make the rod ugly, using cheap hardware, and usingsome leftover flamed strips, which produced lighter colored sides and dark topand bottom. Even so, the rod looks pretty decent, and is a fine caster. I brought it to the Grand Gathering last weekend, where it generated a lot ofinterest in the methodThanks to Richard for reviving this idea, it looks to me to be a great wayto experiment with quad tapers.BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method of joiningthe spliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but is frankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have a little stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I would like to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wire ties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to be something that would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to the caneor finish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thin strip of cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of tempered phosphor bronze if need be. from brookie@frii.com Wed Jun 2 08:53:31 1999 Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Is that their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great compliment to a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if I recall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock sounds likeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Wed Jun 2 10:04:16 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:04:12 +0200 Subject: Sv: 2 strip quads Tom Richard and I had a correspondance some time back aboutthe 2-strip quad, dubbed The Poor Mans Quad. Now as then Isuggest The Poor Mans Ferrule: Two pieces of square brasstube, fitting together. Just like a cheap non- serrated ordinaryferrule, just square instead of round. Serrate it, glue it andthat is that. Re: Glueing and planing: After glueing up the two strips, do the final planing of thetwo not yet planed sides this way: Use Your ordinary planingform by simply pressing the piece between the two parts oftheplaningform. I glued up a PMQ thisway, thus getting it VERY straight. regards, Carsten from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jun 2 14:22:10 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id PAA06339; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:21:48 -0400 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels Terry O'Connor (aka J Austin Himself) - just left Grayrock yesterday - heisdue back again in a couple weeks - he is promising to have a surpriseespecially designed for the gathering here - Sue - Did you see the Purplecolor he offers - Gee - i wonder where that idea came from - TuddlesWayne closets to accustom yourselves with activities after dark-----Original Message----- Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Isthat their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great complimentto a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if Irecall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock soundslikeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jun 2 16:10:50 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AE1734B300BE; Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:11:51 EDT Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels constabulary,this is more innocent than it sounds. Really. [Unless I was missingsomething,Wayne.]Best regards,Reed wayne cattanach wrote: hide away inclosets to accustom yourselves with activities after dark from brookie@frii.com Wed Jun 2 17:53:24 1999 Subject: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Wayne had said : Terry O'Connor (aka J Austin Himself) - just left Grayrock yesterday - he is due back again in a couple weeks - he is promising to have a surpriseespecially designed for the gathering here - Sue - Did you see the Purple color he offers- Gee - i wonder where that idea came from - TuddlesWayne Well, you sure had me clicking on all the links on thatwebsite I'll tell ya ! rotten trick. Couldn't find thepurple anything. Closest *I* could come to "purple" wasthe cranberry Saltwater reel and in girl-speak, that is NOT purple ! *VBG*http://www.jaustinforbes.com/jafsalt.html I do see that this chap offers a seven day inspection oftheir rods and reels if they are ordered with a creditcard. I might just have to try out the Aerial, indeed Imight. Fascinating little reel. Question, would someone go to this section of the Forbeswebsite and tell me what kind of hardware on the handle ?http://www.jaustinforbes.com/magreel.htmlSure looks like gold to me. And since we're at it, is magnesium tough enough to handlea few bumps now and again ? suecolorado from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jun 2 18:01:38 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:01:32 -0500 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels I get the idea that sleep is an unaffordable luxury at Grayrock. Wish I wasgoingto be there, but alas, duty demands that I stay away. What's amazing tome isthat I hear all these fish stories, but have yet to see even a single pictureof afish brought to hand during this Michigan madcap. Guess if you really wanttocatch a few fish at one of the gatherings, you need to head south towardsArkansas. Is that perception correct?Harry >evil grin For the benefit of those new to Grayrock, SWMBO, and the localconstabulary,this is more innocent than it sounds. Really. [Unless I was missingsomething,Wayne.]Best regards,Reed from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jun 2 18:17:41 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:17:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Unless I'm mistaken, Sue, that's gold anodized aluminum on thereel seat hardware. Looks like a Powell handle to me. To quoteDennis Miller, "Of course, that's just my opinion, I could bewrong."I used one of those reel seats on a two-weight graphite rod afew years ago, before I saw the light. Along with TN guides,feather inlays, and burl-cork, it looked plenty flashy. Recentlysold the rod for far more than the sum of component's cost. Now Ihave a few more dollars to pour into building bamboo. Just what Ineed!Unless I'm mistaken, the deck of my lawnmower is magnesium.It oughta be plenty tough. Harry from mevans@acxiom.com Wed Jun 2 21:24:48 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:19:19 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 02 Jun1999 21:19:19-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Wed Jun02 21:19:18 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof finalforms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyone I'vetalked with andwould appreciate some feedback you talented folks on the list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium "dead on" forms? Some have told me that it will be well worth theinvestment after Iget 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told me that a set within about.003 isplenty close. Consensus seems to be that the accuracy of the slope is themain issuebecause you can adjust around the variances. I hear that very talentedrodmakers areall over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. Itis worth the same for the forms? TIA. from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jun 2 21:58:28 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id WAA07489 for ;Wed, 2 Jun 1999 Subject: The Color Purple(and, yes, it is raining) Sue -All the Girls here in Grayrock have Purple (Lyndi - 2 & Cheryl Tiernan -1) - it was created as a Big favor - Terry perhaps has more in stock butnotlisting them at the website - an e-mail should find out.Terry is quite receptive to suggentions and has done some specialreels - he is prototyping one that should be of special interest to the listmembers - He will be working extra hours in hope of unvailing it at thegathering. A Big HI :-) from Grayrock Wayne And Harry - yes, there are fish caught - the problem lies in the factthat it seems that not many have the time to interrupt their intensefishingto take pictures - However, I did get pictures of a certain shop ownerusinga cellular phone on the stream - BOY is he in for a roasting from theFishHead group when they get wind of this. from penr0295@bendnet.com Wed Jun 2 23:36:18 1999 VAA29404 Subject: Pflueger medalist No. 1394 Can anyone tell me when the model 1394 Pflueger Medalist was beingmade? Isuspect the 20's sometime. This is a model marked "Patent Pending" ontheframe, and has the aluminum spool release cover and the turned "baroque"style pillars. No line guard on this 2 3/4" spool version. Wish they stillmade them this way. Thanks,Tom Penrose from drodgers@ddaccess.net Thu Jun 3 08:22:19 1999 ddasvr1.ddaccess.comwith SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Re: Accuracy of Final Forms I purchased my planing form from Jon Lintvet (Munro Rods). I am verypleasedwith it. I have seen the planing forms that Goldenwitch offers they arealsonice. I would have confidence that either of these companies deliver theplaning form quickly.Part of the problem of purchasing a form from some of the places (at acheaper price ) is getting delivery. For example I ordered the roughingform from Colorado Bootstrap in January. I have not gotten yet.So be sure and check on delivery and if they don't deliver within areasonable length of time then find someone else. Dan -----Original Message----- Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof final forms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyoneI've talked with and would appreciate some feedback you talented folks onthe list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium worththe investment after I get 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told methat a set within about .003 is plenty close. Consensus seems to be thatthe accuracy of the slope is the main issue because you can adjust aroundthe variances. I hear that very talented rodmakers are all over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. It is worth the same for the forms? TIA. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jun 3 08:41:45 1999 Subject: Poor Man's Quad The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jun 3 09:07:42 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:04:50 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: 2 strip quads Tom,how about gluing hardwood onto the bearing surfaces and cutting "keys"into the hardwood so the two sections join firmly then bind the scarf asyou would guides. That'd look nice. Tony Thanks to Richard for reviving this idea, it looks to me to be a great wayto experiment with quad tapers.BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method ofjoining the spliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but is frankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have a little stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I would like to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wire ties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to besomething that would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to thecane or finish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thinstrip of cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of tempered phosphor bronze if need be. /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from Mhairi98@hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 10:05:59 1999 Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they were madeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jun 3 10:39:25 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jun 3 10:47:21 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:47:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Accuracy of Final Forms Mark. I think it all depends upon how the error(s) in your tolerances aredistributed along the length of the form. For instance, if at one 5-inchpoint, your form is .003 UNDER a specified dimension, and at the next 5-inchincrement, the form is .003 OVER specs.(and so on along its length), thenyou may have difficulty in setting up your form to produce the taper youdesire. Of course, it can be done, but it may involve a lot of messingabout and testing with your depth gauge. Again, if the form shows these kinds of inaccuracies toward the last 18inches or so in the area of your tip-top, you may be especially perplexed insetting your preferred dimension. And, too, if the groove toward thetip- top is cut too deeply, you may not be able to close the bars closelyenough to produce the dimensions you are after for a small rod. As a last consideration, if your forms come out relatively close to whatyouare looking for (say, +/- .003 in a rather uniformly distributed slope),you can easily touch-up the offending areas, if necessary, with triangularstones. Much depends upon what sort of assurances for tolerances your machinistwillguarantee, but in the final analysis, you will find that as you get betteras a builder, these issues matter less and less. A set of forms that holdsto .003 will be just fine if the slope is uniform, and you will soon learnhow to "adjust" for such variables to produce exactly what you are after. I don't know how much more a set of forms that is "dead on" would cost,butI wouldn't really think it to be worth the expense. Nice to have, but"overkill" in comparison to a set of forms that is, overall, "prettyclose." After a few rods, and learning both how to set up andto plane well, you'll wonder why you wasted your money. Many otherfactors(to do with your own techniques) are more important in producing the rodyou are after. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof final forms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyoneI've talked with and would appreciate some feedback you talented folks onthe list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium worththe investment after I get 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told methat a set within about .003 is plenty close. Consensus seems to be thatthe accuracy of the slope is the main issue because you can adjust aroundthe variances. I hear that very talented rodmakers are all over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. It is worth the same for the forms? TIA. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jun 3 10:56:43 1999 Subject: RE: Poor Man's Quad Okay, I'll bite - five strips and six sides? What is the geometry of that?(I always was bad at figuring out this kind of puzzle.) -----Original Message-----From: Heidt [SMTP:destinycon@mindspring.com]Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if oneofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest powerfibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angleuntilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod everycoupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensateforthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jun 3 11:27:09 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Having the power fibres in the midlle of the rod You might as welluse spaghetti. The tension in the longitudal center of the rod is zerowhich is why You can hollowbuild without any noticeable loss ofpower in the rod. Not being an engineer, I cant give You the figuresbut hopefully someone on the list could provide these. Sorry chaps, won't do. regards Carsten from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jun 3 11:27:11 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:26:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Seth, I haven't had any experience in building (or using) quads, but I would thinkit to be a MAJOR mistake in any rod to position the power fibers towardthecenter of a section. Dead center is called "dead" for a very good reason.The center of a flexing shaft undergoes neither compression nor tension,itsimply moves through the moment of the arc. By contrast, the areastowardthe outside walls of a column (in this case, a rod) provide the neededcompression/tension to provide resistance to bending forces. But in theseareas, if you were to build as you suggest, you would have only therelatively weaker (and softer) inner fibers of the culm. If the two strips of the PMQ rod were built as you suggest, with the powerfibers glued together to form a center-line, then you might have some luckonly if that center-line were oriented vertically with respect to guideplacement. But, even so, the rod's strength (or its resistance to bendingforces as derived from "power fibers") would be in effectONLY IN that vertical axis. And the power fibers located in the center ofthe section would still offer no benefit. Further, any movement of the rodthrough its horizontal axis (side-to-side motion) would be even more"willowy" by comparison. Just a semi-educated guess, Seth, coming from a guy whose math skillsdependentirely upon how flexible his fingers are on any given day. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Poor Man's Quad The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod insideout?>That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jun 3 11:29:05 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Seth,The greatest stresses are concentrated at the areas of stretching andcompression--the top and bottom of the outside surface. Why put thepowerfibers in the middle, where the neutral area is? I'm not an engineer but itseems to me that power fibers in the middle would defeat the wholeconcept.I have read that this technique was indeed tried eary in the history ofsplit bamboo rods (early 1800's?) in three-strip construction and theoutside was planed round to resemble the wooden rods of the day.Obviously,the technique didn't last very long, as six-strip hex-shaped rods withpowerfibers on the outside dominated the scene not long after mid- century.Steve The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Thu Jun 3 11:31:20 1999 199916:29:20 UT 16-1998)) id86256785.005A7D11 ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:28:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium is what they make racing wheels out of - where the term "mag"camefrom. The nifty part is it burns! That's the flash of fire you see when anIndycar hits the wall. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from stuart.tod@virgin.net Thu Jun 3 11:32:08 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:31:07 +0100 Subject: Re: very old fly rods Mhairi.....Have you read the 'Compleat Angler', by old Izaac? He describes how tomakea rod using the 'contemporary' materials he had then. Stuart(the last Welsh cane rodmaker!) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they were madeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jun 3 12:02:46 1999 Subject: RE: Poor Man's Quad Frank,I just knew some one would make me have to try this. He used adoublebuilt triangle in the center then glued on three more triangle pieces tothe out side forming a larger triangle (power fibers in). Making fivetotal strips. He then planed the apexes of the glued-up triangle blank toa hex. I was able to examine one (wasn't able to cast it) a few yearsback. It had no glue lines on the corners, there were seams running downthe center of three flats that widened as the taper got smaller showingthestrips underneth. Hope this drawing comes out looking some what like itleft. / \/ \- ----------------final planing to hex / \ / \/___________\/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \______/ \/ \ / \/ \ / \/___________\/__________\ Regards,Gary H. At 12:00 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:Okay, I'll bite - five strips and six sides? What is the geometry of that?(I always was bad at figuring out this kind of puzzle.) -----Original Message-----From: Heidt [SMTP:destinycon@mindspring.com]Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if oneofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sidesalternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod insideout?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest powerfibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angleuntilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod everycoupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensateforthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with theWinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jun 3 12:03:47 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Having the power fibres in the midlle of the rod You might as welluse spaghetti. The tension in the longitudal center of the rod is zerowhich is why You can hollowbuild without any noticeable loss ofpower in the rod. This is true if indeed you have a strip that runs out of power fibers within the depth of the strip. I have found that this rarely happens.All the rods I have made have good power fibers throughout theentire diameter. The argument can be made that the better powerfibers are towards the outside of a culm, so you would be placingthe better fibers in the middle where there is zero stress, but inmy experimentation with planing away up to .010 of the enamelside of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl from brookie@frii.com Thu Jun 3 12:08:27 1999 Subject: Re: very old fly rods I cross posted ( excluding the email address of the requestor onRodMakers' post because I had not gotten her permission )Rose Mary Garrels' question about rods 500 years ago to another listserv I belong to . Interesting, here is the responseI got : The Treatise of Fishing With an Angle (1400's) contains instructions on how to build a rod, although I personally findthem a little confusing. The text of the treatise can be found in The Origins of Angling, by the late John McDonald, which was reprinted by Lyons and Burford. The printed version of the Treatise also contains a drawing of a rod. Both materials and construction were wildly different from those in use today. Here is a brief summary of what the Treatise says: the rod would be of three parts, a hollow butt section about nine feet long and as thick as your arm, and a two piece tip, the pieces of which are bound together permanently with cord. The tip is stored insidethe hollow butt, and as I understand it, telescopes out to makea rod of 13 to 18 feet. The upper end of the tip section was reinforced with cord and a loop of cord at the tip served to attach the line. There were no guides. A spike on the butt would haveserved to plant the rod in the ground for still-fishing. At thetime, there was apparently no distinction between fly-fishing tackleand "that other stuff." The butt was made of hazel, willow, or aspen. The lower part ofthe tip was made of green hazel. The tip was "blackthorn, crabtree,medlar, or juniper." What medlar was, I don't know. Amusingly, one of the cited benefits of the telescoping rod was secrecy: "And thus you will make for yourself a rod so secret that you canwalk with it, and no one will know what you are going to do." Fromthis, we can draw two possible conclusions: 1) medieval anglers were as secretive about their favorite holes as modern ones, or 2) angling in the middle ages had the same faintly disreputable air as it does today, being a sport practised by wayward souls of a mendacious and secretive spirit. Not quite sure I can relate to 2) .... but it did make me laugh. But I'd say a pretty good 'lead' for Rose and husband as regards thebook. Now the trick will be to find it... suecolorado from lathebaby@yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 12:14:17 1999 1999 10:14:15 PDT Subject: Soldering Nickle Silver I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not. Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from tom@cet-inc.com Thu Jun 3 13:06:29 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver RickOn the advise of Mr. Zimny, I've been using Sta-Brite Silver Solder. Itcomes in a kit with liquid flux. MSC has the kits for $7.10 ea. It melts ata fairly low temp, somewhere around 300 degrees F and I use a MAPP gastorchwith a very low flame (a propane torch may even work better). Tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Soldering Nickle Silver I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jun 3 13:28:23 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Rick,I have been using silver solder with a liquid flux for many years inbuilding guns and such. It is very strong and has a melting point somewhere around 300 degrees. I have used it to solder on barrel lugs and nickle silver gun sights and have had the best luck with it. Make sure your stuff is really clean or you will have a failure with the joints.Bret from richlob@jps.net Thu Jun 3 14:19:26 1999 Subject: TEST Hi every one I will send an Intro laterThanks Rich Lob from bobspring@yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 15:05:45 1999 1999 13:05:54 PDT Subject: Fairy Rod Does anybody know anything about a Hardy "Fairy" Fly Rod? 8"6', 5.5oz,3 piecePalakona Bamboo Taper?History?Dates of Manufacture?How used?Etc. Bob Springmeyer _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jun 3 15:17:33 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Loctite has many advantages over soldering. Rick Crenshaw wrote: I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jun 3 15:35:18 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA24257 for ;Thu, 3 Jun 1999 Subject: Way Cool Poster - TTBBBQ - V Commerative www.troutbums.com/dyna3.cfm from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jun 3 16:54:32 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id RAA29269; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:54:27 -0400 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels Sue -All the Girls here in Grayrock have Purple (Lyndi - 2 & Cheryl Tiernan -1) - it was created as a Big favor - Terry perhaps has more in stock butnotlisting them at the website - an e-mail should find out.Terry is quite receptive to suggentions and has done some specialreels - he is prototyping one that should be of special interest to the listmembers - He will be working extra hours in hope of unvailing it at thegathering.A Big HI :-) from GrayrockWayneAnd Harry - yes, there are fish caught - the problem lies in the factthat it seems that not many have the time to interrupt their intensefishingto take pictures - However, I did get pictures of a certain shop ownerusinga cellular phone on the stream - BOY is he in for a roasting from theFishHead group when they get wind of this. -----Original Message----- Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Isthat their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great complimentto a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if Irecall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock soundslikeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jun 3 17:56:13 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl wrote side of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips,being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 strip QuadG from anglport@con2.com Thu Jun 3 21:37:58 1999 Subject: Test from BambooRods@aol.com Thu Jun 3 22:57:18 1999 Subject: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposal out rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" to cast and evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a 6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 01:17:41 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips, being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... They seem to break pretty much the same way to me...What types of differences do you notice? OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. I have seen rods made this way, as someone else has mentionedthere used to be someone who made them this way. It casted like a"normal" rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 stripQuad G No pproblems with glueing, and node straightening could be done fairlyquickly..... I have yet to see a culm with a power fiber layer thick enough to make aone strip rod. If culms like this exist, perhaps a one strip rod could be made. Darryl from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 02:13:11 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad -- They seem to break pretty much the same way to me...What types of differences do you notice? This is testing my vocabulary to the limits, but I'll give ita try: Looking at the end of a strip, it can roughly be dividedinto 3 zones: Outer layer, some 1/10 of an inch thick, the middlelayer made of fairly dense fibres, and the last layer, which isthe yellowish pith. Try wetting the end of the strip, and the outerlayer turns into a brownish black, the middle layer somewhatlighter in colour and the pith doesn't change colour - well almostnot. When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Wetting the end of the culm is how I determine the quality andquantity of power fibres in a culm. I think Mother Nature had a specific reason for making bamboohollow in the middle and putting the power fibres on the outside.Bamboo Naturel is a pretty smart solution, dont You think? regards, Carsten from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jun 4 09:47:16 1999 Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:47:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad All,We need to consider, too, the effect of glue-lines themselves upon thestrength (resistance to forces of bending) in a fly rod. In an ordinary6- strip rod, we are creating a laminate which surely gains much of itsstrength from the mere fact of individual strips being glued together. Eachglue-line causes just that much more resistance to the (natural) tendencyofthe cane fibers to "slip past" one another when subjected to thecompression/tension forces of bending. In the PMQ rod in question, I should think that a single glue-line runningalong the center line (whether oriented horizontally or vertically) wouldprovide a negligible amount of resistance to fiber-slipping. Laminatestrength is barely noticeable with the joining of only two laminates(because of the central location of the glue-line), but becomesincreasingly significant only upon gluing three or more laminates. Buildersof laminate floor joists, beams (and so on) for home construction knowthiswell. The 2-strip "quad" would gain little-or-nothing from the laminate effect,and the single strip rod would be worse still. Neither of thesealternatives would able to resist bending forces except by virtue ofmassively exaggerated taper design (but at least the 2-strip rod COULDbenefit from having its power fibers oriented on two of the outsidesurfaces). Power fibers MATTER, for Pete's sake, and so does the laminate effect ofglue-lines. Both of these considerations need to be brought to bear indesigning a rod's maximum resistance to bending. A rod's strength doesnotcome only from the distribution of mass within the taper design. And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of cane aredense enough, and so, are all about the same. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl wrote side of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONGAS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips,being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 strip QuadGNo pproblems with glueing, and node straightening could be done fairlyquickly..... regards, Carsten from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 4 10:31:37 1999 Subject: Planes All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - many brandsand models are compared. There's also information on replacement blades andcap irons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should be happy!) as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding a Clifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was the wayto improve even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Jun 4 12:24:03 1999 0400 Subject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod (nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" in thedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is based onthepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the same amountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along with diameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating a tubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more inner ones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre would besubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steel wireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffness theyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, how much?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was a realproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and the otheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 12:47:18 1999 Subject: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 2:51:43 PM, you wrote: Bill - You do raise an interesting point. I think the glue lines do make a difference, but not very much. I think you can see this in 6 strip construction. My experience has been that Urac, which dries harder thanother glues also produces a slightly crisper rod, but not by much. Flamed vsbaked seems to have the same effect. I think you can compensate for theseeffects with minor adjustments in taper. I don't know chapter and verse on themath, but in terms of resistance to deflrction, I believe the effect of thickness is exponential, while most of the other factors are directly related. I'm not trying to sell the two strip rod to anyone, just to say they are interesting. If I were trying to BS someone into buying one, I think you could make a case that they are the purest cane casting experience you can have, since the glue line has no theoretical effect on the rod's action. --I ought to get a job writing catalogs.I concurr with what you and Carsten have said about the fine power fibers.I like the idea of having a thin sheath of them around the rod. Not because I think they enhance the casting so much, but because I think they are thebest protection you can have against boulders and tree branches and the other stuff that interrupts your casting from time to time. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jun 4 13:03:49 1999 LAA17076; (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: poor mans quad Mr. Smithwick I think that everyone should have a chance at casting yourspiral rod, infact you ought to do a posting of your method and experiences makingthem. Those of usthat got a chance to cast it at Corbette lake were greatly impressed and I love to make one. It's the first rod that I've ever seen that even poorcasters likemyself could easily get all the way into the backing. ----------From: TSmithwick@aol.com[SMTP:TSmithwick@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:46 AM Subject: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 2:51:43 PM, you wrote: strength (resistance to forces of bending) in a fly rod.>> Bill - You do raise an interesting point. I think the glue lines do make a difference, but not very much. I think you can see this in 6 strip construction. My experience has been that Urac, which dries harder thanother glues also produces a slightly crisper rod, but not by much. Flamed vsbaked seems to have the same effect. I think you can compensate for theseeffects with minor adjustments in taper. I don't know chapter and verse on themath, but in terms of resistance to deflrction, I believe the effect of thickness is exponential, while most of the other factors are directly related. I'm not trying to sell the two strip rod to anyone, just to say they are interesting. If I were trying to BS someone into buying one, I think you could make a case that they are the purest cane casting experience youcan have, since the glue line has no theoretical effect on the rod's action. --I ought to get a job writing catalogs.I concurr with what you and Carsten have said about the fine powerfibers. I like the idea of having a thin sheath of them around the rod. Not becauseI think they enhance the casting so much, but because I think they are thebest protection you can have against boulders and tree branches and the other stuff that interrupts your casting from time to time. from brookie@frii.com Fri Jun 4 13:15:23 1999 Subject: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WOW, just back from skipping around the Troutbums website. I originallywent over to look at the 'new poster' that Wayne was heralding :http://www.TroutBums.com/dyna3.cfm Good golly Miss Molly ! Now there's an eclectic fly fisher ! Gawd awfulcap, those ARE cutts, right ? If that showed up on a creek of mine inColorado, I'd run like ---- downstream !! *G* But more interesting to me, I went into other areas of the website, inparticular drifted into the Makers' Rod section :http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/ Because I have not been on this List but a few months, I of course didn'tknow about the 1998 cane rod built by 28 rod makers. What a raffleprize,along with the leather case, the sack, the line, etc. AMAZING. Wish I hadknown about it. Is there a list of the 28 makers that were involved ? Isuspect many came from this listserv, yes ? Now the question is, after clicking on the next link,http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/winner98.htm, I see that there isto bea Makers' Rod in 2000, constructed by six living cane builders who havewritten books re rodmaking, and the raffle tickets for that were going onsale in Spring 1999. No question, this is a dynamite way to raise funds for flyfishing causes !Creative, energetic, and makes me wish I had about 10 years under my beltin cane building ( I have none by the way , I'm working up to it ) *G* Sooooooo ? How does one get raffle tickets for this ! I'm in ifpossible! suecolorado from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:24:02 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:18:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, scan.oest@post.tele.dk writes: When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Remember I said power fibers all the way through. No pith.Are you sure the outer layer is power fibers and not enamel? Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:33:13 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of cane aredense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from chris@artistree.com Fri Jun 4 13:48:14 1999 Subject: Re: Planes And he has a waiting list! -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Canerods@aol.com wrote: OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:58:55 1999 Subject: Re: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 6:03:59 PM, Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.comwrote: I'm doing the best I can, Patrick. I just got back from the Grand Gathering, where I put on my Dog and Pony show for the people up there. It was agreat time, put on by a great bunch of people.Perhaps you are right that I should write up an article for the web site describing the method. My original "Planing Form" article was re-printedin "The Best Of The Planing Form", and is still in print as far as I know. The Lambuth book is hard to get, but does show up once in a while. I would be glad to help anyone who wants to try to build one of the things. It really isn't hard, but does take more time and fussing. As you and others whohave cast the rods know, they are one approach to rods which are superiordistance casters. That does not mean they are superior fishing rods, which is a completely different thing. BTW- Mr. Smithwick is my fathers name. Everyone just calls me Tom. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 14:03:18 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:03:14 +0200 Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Remember I said power fibers all the way through. No pith.Are you sure the outer layer is power fibers and not enamel? Darryl Power fibres are NOT just power fibres. They come in differentthicknesses, and the density is different from the outside to theinnerside. Hence the different colour of the strip, becominglighter in colour at the inside. Never noticed the enamel could break, forming long thin splinters.AS far as I know, the enamel is the hard, waxy layer on the outsidewhich we remove with a Sandvik scraper, or whatever. On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff,presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there isbetweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using for rodmaking. I assume we can agree, that there are more pushing/pulling on the outsidethan in the center of a rod, or Bamboo Naturel, when bent. from this I conclude that the outside, thin and closely spaced fibres aremoreresistent to breaking than the coarser fibres nearer the center of thebamboo.This coinside with the simple test of breaking a split. Doing that one willnoticewhat I described earlier about the nature of the broken fibres. regards, Carsten from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jun 4 14:25:40 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id PAA28735; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:25:28 -0400 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Brookie -The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors there areanother 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as many othertalentedcontributers - David Ruimveld is this years featured artist - you wereasking about one of his works earlier. Even though the image of a TTBBBQ -Vattendee may lead one to believe that those attending aren't seriousindividuals I would focus your attention to the fact that there was some$29,650 raise around last years event - which I feel is reflective of thequality of those involved. GEE :-) Sue - what do you have planned for nextJune???????? Fish ON !!!!! Wayne -----Original Message----- Subject: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WOW, just back from skipping around the Troutbums website. I originallywent over to look at the 'new poster' that Wayne was heralding :http://www.TroutBums.com/dyna3.cfm Good golly Miss Molly ! Now there's an eclectic fly fisher ! Gawd awfulcap, those ARE cutts, right ? If that showed up on a creek of mine inColorado, I'd run like ---- downstream !! *G* But more interesting to me, I went into other areas of the website, inparticular drifted into the Makers' Rod section :http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/ Because I have not been on this List but a few months, I of course didn'tknow about the 1998 cane rod built by 28 rod makers. What a raffleprize,along with the leather case, the sack, the line, etc. AMAZING. Wish I hadknown about it. Is there a list of the 28 makers that were involved ? Isuspect many came from this listserv, yes ? Now the question is, after clicking on the next link,http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/winner98.htm, I see that there isto bea Makers' Rod in 2000, constructed by six living cane builders who havewritten books re rodmaking, and the raffle tickets for that were going onsale in Spring 1999. No question, this is a dynamite way to raise funds for flyfishing causes !Creative, energetic, and makes me wish I had about 10 years under mybeltin cane building ( I have none by the way , I'm working up to it ) *G* Sooooooo ? How does one get raffle tickets for this ! I'm in ifpossible! suecolorado from brookie@frii.com Fri Jun 4 14:50:55 1999 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as many other talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featured artist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe that those attending aren't serious individuals I would focus your attention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around last years event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98 Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ? Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it ! I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it, but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers were scattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Fri Jun 4 15:18:53 1999 Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:18:46 -0400 Subject: Re: 2 strip quads Tom,I had a great time casting your rods at the "Grand". What about bindingthe two halves of the PMQ with nylon guide wrapping thread? Davidin Maine BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method ofjoining thespliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but isfrankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have alittle stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I wouldlike to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wireties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to be somethingthat would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to the caneorfinish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thin stripof cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of temperedphosphor bronze if need be. from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 15:57:57 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:04:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cmj@post11.tele.dk writes: On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff, presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there is betweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using forrodmaking. That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I would haverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff was planedaway. Or if the white stuff was only down around the handle and reel seat,where there is no stress on the blank at all. Have you seen the picture of the cross section in Tom Morgan's brochure for his Hand Mill? Solid power fibers all the way through. That's what cross sections of my rods looklike. Darryl from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Jun 4 16:12:25 1999 "BambooRods@aol.com" Subject: Re: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Doug No problem - I'm bringing lots of different lines with me both plasticand silk - Reed should have his share. We should be able to get an accurate assessment of what line will make these rods come alive. Chris On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:54:53 EDT, BambooRods@aol.com wrote: Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposalout rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" to cast and evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a 6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Jun 4 17:11:52 1999 "TSmithwick@aol.com" Subject: Poor Man's Hex - The next step Tom Reflecting on your comments on that the PMQ is a good way to whipouta rod to check out potential tapers w/o much investment of time or justto get a good fishing rod to beat up on those trips that could cause damage to agood rod - why cannot the same method be used to generate a poor man's Hex.Here'show. Plane the two strips and glue like you did for the PMQ to get thediameter.Now instead of planing the sides square - bevel each corner of one side tothe centerof the glue line to the enamel side. A jig with a 45 degree angle cut in itwould allowyouto get the bevel easily by putting in the 90 degree side of the PMQ downand planingflat on top. Now you have one side - you can then plane the last two sidesopposite the bevel. Bingo - a PMH. It would be interesting to make a match set of PMQ / PMH of a taperto see what the differences would be. Chris from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 18:11:20 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad ----->That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I wouldhaverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff was planed away. Got a PHY Catalog from 1956. On page 7 is a picture of yet another sawnover rod, looking exactly like the one in Garrisons book. Wonder why PHYtoo used lousy bamboo. Well, what was good enough for them, most certainly is good enough forme, but I guess I ought set my standards somewhat higher. And with this confession of my lowly niveau I henceforth close this case.Still don't know why anybody would want to make an "inside out" rod....... regards, Carsten from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 18:32:55 1999 Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step In a message dated 6/4/99 10:17:39 PM, you wrote: Actually Chris, This would give you an asymmetrical hex. I think you would want to use a 60* jig to get a hex. However, you could use a 45* jig and leave a flat in the middle instead of planing to the centerline, and end up with the poor man's octo. That might be pretty interesting ,too. from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jun 4 19:43:55 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id UAA21884; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Sue -The idea of the Makers Rod surfaced at the wake...Scottish you know ...after TTBBBQ III in Vic Edwards garage - There were a handful of makerspresent. The logistics was that each maker was to make one strip for a 7'6"3 piece 2 tipped rod - (6strips per section = 24 makers) - the extramakerswere my son and daughter who helped me with one strip and Kim WalkerandGlen Brackett from Winston did a strip together. Needless to say the rodcould be called the most unique rod ever made - the makers created stripsoftheir normal making - ie - flamed, blonde, nodeless - the makers were across section of experience with one individual contributing some of hisfirst work. It is estimated that the rod (strips and such) traveled some35,000 mile to be created - Yes there were a couple bugs but everyoneinvolved did a great job and there is a happy camper in Washington statewhowon the package -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as manyother talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featuredartist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe thatthose attending aren't serious individuals I would focus yourattention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around lastyears event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ?Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it !I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it,but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers werescattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 19:57:50 1999 Subject: Spiral rod taper I just realized I never published this. Here is the taper for the 7 1/2 foot 6 weight, which has been well received at the rodmakers gatherings. Thisis the lighter butt version. If you make it with a spiral butt, and one straight and one spiral tip, you will have a fine all purpose rod. The spiral tip is stiffer, causing the rod to have a slower, wet fly type action, and is powerful for casting streamers, etc. The straight tip will have a lighter, dry fly type action. I think it would be fine as a straight rod also.0- .0725- .08310- .10715-.12420-.14025-.15430-.16735-.18040-.19245-.20450-.21955- .23360-.24765-.26070-.27575-.28880-.31085-.33090-.340 from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jun 4 21:33:56 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id ACEE3EFB00D4; Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:35:26 EDT "BambooRods@aol.com" Subject: Re: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Doug,As you are aware, the usual charge for such services is one lager atSpike's.See you there.Best regards,Reed Chris Bogart wrote: Doug No problem - I'm bringing lots of different lines with me bothplasticand silk - Reed should have his share. We should be able to get anaccurateassessment of what line will make these rods come alive. Chris On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:54:53 EDT, BambooRods@aol.com wrote: Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposalout rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" tocastand evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jun 4 23:43:45 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:43:24 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Planes Just further to this, anybody interested in making their own planes andit's not that difficult should take a look at Wooden Boat #147 March/April99 on page 36-42. Using the ideas in this article you could make asuperior plane any size you wish.It wouldn't be hard to have the metal parts of the body ie. the sole andsides cast in bronze if you wanted to. Tony On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 Canerods@aol.com wrote: All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - manybrands and models are compared. There's also information on replacement bladesand cap irons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should behappy!) as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding a Clifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was theway to improve even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:29:20 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium also provided the "flash" in flashbulbs (anyone remember thosethings??). George Bourke PS-- Titanium burns too. (Looking for a good fire extinguisher beforetryingto turn the stuff on the lathe.) -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium is what they make racing wheels out of - where the term"mag"camefrom. The nifty part is it burns! That's the flash of fire you see when anIndycar hits the wall. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:29:27 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: very old fly rods There was a book written by a woman on fly fishing around the end of the1300's that isn't too hard to find (wish I remembered the title). Also, youmight check into the Rogan family of Donnegal, Ireland...they have beentying flies for over 500 years (scissors are reported to be the only toolthey use!). George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they weremadeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:42:23 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Planes Isn't the Holtey a smoothing plane? (But, I believe they make blades youcan purchase for other planes.) George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Planes All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - many brandsandmodels are compared. There's also information on replacement blades andcapirons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should be happy!)as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding aClifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was thewaytoimprove even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jun 5 07:44:55 1999 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Sounds like 'Murder on the Orient Express', everyone gets a stab!Terry wayne cattanach wrote: Sue -The idea of the Makers Rod surfaced at the wake...Scottish you know ...after TTBBBQ III in Vic Edwards garage - There were a handful of makerspresent. The logistics was that each maker was to make one strip for a7' 6"3 piece 2 tipped rod - (6strips per section = 24 makers) - the extramakerswere my son and daughter who helped me with one strip and Kim WalkerandGlen Brackett from Winston did a strip together. Needless to say the rodcould be called the most unique rod ever made - the makers createdstrips oftheir normal making - ie - flamed, blonde, nodeless - the makers were across section of experience with one individual contributing some of hisfirst work. It is estimated that the rod (strips and such) traveled some35,000 mile to be created - Yes there were a couple bugs but everyoneinvolved did a great job and there is a happy camper in Washington statewhowon the package -----Original Message-----From: Sue K. Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 3:58 PMSubject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as manyother talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featuredartist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe thatthose attending aren't serious individuals I would focus yourattention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around lastyears event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ?Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it !I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it,but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers werescattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 07:58:10 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:58:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Darryl, One can't be certain why you didn't notice a difference, but for one thing,planing or sanding away .010 of an inch may not be a sufficient amount toreveal a difference -- especially if some portion of this thickness wasenamel. If you look into the end of a cleanly-cut strip of good cane (asI'm sure you've done as often as have I), one notices that the first layerof power fibers lying just on the surface is typically about .015-.018thick, and these are backed by a staggered, second layer of fibers about.018-.022. Going deeper than that, "layers," as such, are notdistinguishable. One also notices that the fibers quickly become largerandlarger in diameter after these first two layers, but that the pith areaseparating the fibers also become larger and larger. Admittedly, "power fiber" is a relative term, since it is not possible todetermine a clear line of demarcation where they "end," and the termbecomes even more relative from one culm to the next. But in all culms,atall points along their length, these power fibers are the smallest and inthe greatest in concentration (and also are separated by the least amountofpith) just toward the outermost .030-.035 of the surface. How can thatfact, which is clearly visible with the naked eye, NOT be significant as animportant factor in resisting the forces of bending? In selecting culms of cane for building one of our most importantconsiderations, at the outset, is always to look into the cut-end for thegreatest concentration of outer fibers, that also continues the greatestdistance into the wall thickness. We do that for a very good reason, and itis because that "ideal" culm will provide the builder with the greatestresistance to forces of bending. We know this matters, because rods builtof culms with a less dense concentration of power fibers will not producethe same crisp action in a given taper. Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth ofthepower fibers. If it were not so, then any old culm could be used, and wecould plane the enamel side instead of fussing with filing, straighteningand careful sanding, and all rods would turn out about the same,regardless. As a final thought on the rods you mentioned, although you might not haveNOTICED a difference, the only true test for "noticing difference" wouldhave been to construct two identical rods from the same culm -- one withthepower fibers planed (or sanded) away, and the other with these intact. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of canearedense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 08:11:59 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:11:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl, I am looking at the color photo you mention in Morgan's brochure even as Itype this. And I have to say, Darryl, that you are mistaken about the powerfibers extending "all the way through," even on this excellent example ofexcellent cane. The cane shows very tightly bundled fibers with aminimumamount of pith separating the fibers, but not all the fibers you see are"power fibers." Moreover, the amount of separating pith increases asone's eye proceeds toward the center of the section (as, in all cane, itwill always do). IT IS NOT ALL THE SAME throughout, and not allnice-looking fibers are what we call "power fiber." Darryl, this matters! Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:04:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,cmj@post11.tele.dk writes: On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff,presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there isbetweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using forrodmaking. That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I would haverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff wasplanedaway. Or if the white stuff was only down around the handle and reelseat,where there is no stress on the blank at all. Have you seen the picture ofthe cross section in Tom Morgan's brochure for his Hand Mill? Solidpowerfibers all the way through. That's what cross sections of my rods looklike. Darryl from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Jun 5 08:20:10 1999 "TSmithwick@aol.com" Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step Tom You are right on the 60 degrees. However, last night I was thinking about this a bit more and realizedthat the Gink could really benefit from this to successfully create hisBastard Rod.This two strip method is definitely "thinking out of the box". He has beentrying tomanufacture a rod the old fashioned way and has run into all the problemsfaced previous emailthat this two strip Hex rod could easily be mass produced using aBellinger / Dickersonmill without the problems of 6 strip constructed rods. Here is my soon to be patented process (licenses for process can behad 1. Prep strips using Medved Beveler to get them uniform. You shouldusethe square guide Al uses for dressing strips prior to splicing and nottriangle one. The width of the strips should be approx 1.3 times the widest intendedsection diameter. These strips should be slightly rectangle (forget abouttriangles). 2. Cut your taper template for the mill as usual using the straightcutter. 3. Set the template to the position for normal milling. 4. Put one of your preped rectangle strips in mill using the straightcuttercut your taper. I figure you can really whip these through the mill quickly. 5. Now, you can laminate your strips together (notice I did not sayglue).using contact cement. This will eliminate all the clamping, binding, anddrying timeproblems. (Hey what you want for a bastard rod.) This is quick - spread thestuff, letit get dry and carefully lay one strip on top of the other and press. 6. You may want to dress the strips after laminating using theMedved Beveler 7. Now put the 60 degree cutting head on the mill. 8. Now run you laminated strips through the mill with the Apex of the60 degreecutting head set for a height 1.5 times you diameter of the taper. This willbevel thesidesperfectly. 9 Flip the strip and run through the mill again. 10 Finished! You now have a completed glued up Poor Mans Hexshaped section. It is ready for light final sanding and ready for ferrules! As you can see this really automates the production of making thesethings w/oa lot of fuss and mess. I also note that this process can be easily adaptedto theMorgan Hand Mill. I also believe that if you leave on the straight cutter on you can make yourPMQ's thesame way. I think I will call my first rod built using this process "TheGinkensteinSpecial" . I think usingthis method I could seriously challenge for the low end market and put abamboo rod inevery flyfisherman'shands. Isn't technology wonderful - Chris On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:29:01 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/4/99 10:17:39 PM, you wrote: to get the bevel>> Actually Chris, This would give you an asymmetrical hex. I think youwould want to use a 60* jig to get a hex. However, you could use a 45* jig and leave a flat in the middle instead of planing to the centerline, and end up with the poor man's octo. That might be pretty interesting ,too. from sniderja@email.uc.edu Sat Jun 5 08:27:46 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad I can't address the .010 thickness of sanding Sir Darryl mentions, but Ican address the construction of two "identical" rods from the same culm. Irecently built two Sir Darryl specials. One came out very close (within.002) to the original specs. The second rod came out ca. .007 -.008oversized. Taking a chapter from Darryl's previous experiences, I decidedto sand down to size. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the two rodsfelt identical in their casting qualities. Both rods had CFO III reels onthem, identical lines, and I had my wife randomly select the rods and handthem to me so I could cast them, frequently mixing them up in the process.(Unfortunately, I did not do a true "blindfold" test.) I simply could nottell any difference out to ca. 60+ feet, nor could I determine anydifferences as close as 10'. IMNSHO, I have been told that I am a betterthan average caster (perhaps not for the first 25 years, but certainly forthe more recent 25 years). So, sanding up to .006 off the surface at leastI could not tell any difference. I, like Darryl, use fibers to the verycenter of the rod. I have not mentioned this to anyone earlier because Isuppose that I thought it likely reflected on my inadequate rod-buildingskills. BTW, the two folks who inherited these rods (one through our club'sgrand prize raffle, the other as a gift) are not aware of the above, andthink that the rods are "the berries." Both consider the rods to be amongthe quicker bamboo rods they have cast.I might add that I sand the enamel off right after completing the roughplaning and prior to final planing, so enamel thickness was not included inthe sanding down to final size. At 08:56 AM 6/5/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Darryl, One can't be certain why you didn't notice a difference, but for one thing,planing or sanding away .010 of an inch may not be a sufficient amounttoreveal a difference -- especially if some portion of this thickness wasenamel. If you look into the end of a cleanly-cut strip of good cane (asI'm sure you've done as often as have I), one notices that the first layerof power fibers lying just on the surface is typically about .015-.018thick, and these are backed by a staggered, second layer of fibers about.018-.022. Going deeper than that, "layers," as such, are notdistinguishable. One also notices that the fibers quickly become largerandlarger in diameter after these first two layers, but that the pith areaseparating the fibers also become larger and larger. Admittedly, "power fiber" is a relative term, since it is not possible todetermine a clear line of demarcation where they "end," and the termbecomes even more relative from one culm to the next. But in all culms,atall points along their length, these power fibers are the smallest and inthe greatest in concentration (and also are separated by the least amountofpith) just toward the outermost .030-.035 of the surface. How can thatfact, which is clearly visible with the naked eye, NOT be significant as animportant factor in resisting the forces of bending? In selecting culms of cane for building one of our most importantconsiderations, at the outset, is always to look into the cut-end for thegreatest concentration of outer fibers, that also continues the greatestdistance into the wall thickness. We do that for a very good reason, anditis because that "ideal" culm will provide the builder with the greatestresistance to forces of bending. We know this matters, because rodsbuiltof culms with a less dense concentration of power fibers will notproducethe same crisp action in a given taper. Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth ofthepower fibers. If it were not so, then any old culm could be used, and wecould plane the enamel side instead of fussing with filing, straighteningand careful sanding, and all rods would turn out about the same,regardless. As a final thought on the rods you mentioned, although you might not haveNOTICED a difference, the only true test for "noticing difference" wouldhave been to construct two identical rods from the same culm -- onewith thepower fibers planed (or sanded) away, and the other with these intact. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 11:42 AMSubject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of canearedense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jun 5 08:42:36 1999 Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step In a message dated 6/5/99 1:20:10 PM, cbogart@shentel.net wrote: Chris - I marvel at your wisdom! from Canerods@aol.com Sat Jun 5 09:45:55 1999 Subject: Re: Planes Chris, Longer than a famous rodmaker's? Don B. In a message dated 6/4/99 11:48:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, chris@artistree.com writes: And he has a waiting list! -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Canerods@aol.com wrote: OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 14:44:40 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:44:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Seth, The dead zone in the center of a rod is "theoretical" only inasmuch as weshall forever be unable to measure a point of some undetermined diameter.The dead zone in the center of a fly rod is by no means theoretical INPRACTICE, however, since the centermost areas do not participate in thecompression/tension forces when bending, as do the outermost areas. Now,this, I DO believe, is indisputable, and although the geometric effectsmustsurely be less at the tip-top than at the butt, the facts remain identical. You seem to want to obfuscate the issue, however, by pointing out that thetip section (because of its small diameter) would benefit less and lessfromthe effect of external power fibers as one draws nearer and nearer to thetip-top (because at the extreme, the power fibers extend all the waythrougheach strip). Similarly, you would suggest that as one moves in the otherdirection (toward the butt), the effect of strong power fibers on thesurface ALSO matters less and less (but this time, presumably, becausethebutt flexes less and one could more easily build-in mass to overcome the"loss" of stiff power-fibers). Once again, you may be "theoretically"correct, while in practice, you are being drawn toward conclusions thatresult in utter nonsense for a fly rod. Rod makers, over the years, have learned that it is important to select thebest raw materials FOR A REASON, and one of the most important factorshereis to use cane with particularly strong and densely packed power fibers. Wedon't do this just for the hell of it.The stiffer your cane, the stiffer will be a rod of any given taper.Conversely, the more one ignores the attributes of good cane, the weakerwill be a resulting rod of that same given taper. Why do you suppose thisis true, if not because of the resistance to compression and tension thatdensely packed power fibers can contribute? If it were NOT true, then anyold culm would be as "good" as any other. Secondly, you seem to have inferred that I negated the laminate effect inaquad rod. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, the laminateeffect in a quad is enormous, exactly because in a normal quad, the gluelines extend axially to all four corners. I was discussing, in my earlieremail, the loss of laminate effect in the TWO- STRIP quad (the "PMQ"), wherethere would be only one glue-line running through the center of the rod.The laminate effect IS lost upon such a design because there are no stressforces of compression and tension in a center line (except, minimally,perhaps, if that glue-line were oriented vertically), and hence, no laminaradvantage. And for the same reason, the contribution of power fiberswouldbe lost as well, if they are oriented inward, toward that center line. Now, ALL of this can easily be overcome if one were simply to increasetheoverall dimensions of the taper in question. Added mass is addedstrength,up to some hypothetical point. But why go down THAT road? Don't wewantthe strongest rod for the LIGHTEST weight? Lastly, Seth, laminates of ANY given thickness become increasingly strongasthe number of laminated layers also increases (up to some point ofabsurdity, of course). This effect is far, far from theoretical, and theprinciple functions exactly because, in a laminate (of three or morelayers), we are (increasingly) preventing the internal fibers ofthe raw material (whether silk, paper, pine, hickory or cane) from slippingpast one another when subjected to the stress forces of deflection. Everyarchitect knows this. "Slippage" translates, simply, into relative weakness (in a givencross- section), and weakness (deflection under stress) is slippage.Defeating slippage is the whole point of laminating, and defeatingslippageis ALSO the whole point of choosing cane with the densest power fibers.The accumulation of particularly dense power-fibers is Nature's way ofbuilding a "laminate." Conversely, cane with greater amounts of pithseparating the fibers allows for greater slipping of those fibers past oneanother. Except for a certain, very limited amount of elasticity, how elsecould cane possibly bend AT ALL, ifnot for the effect of fibers slipping past one another in response to thestresses of bending. The effects of fibers slipping past one another are MOST CERTAINLY NOTexaggerated, neither in wood, nor in cane. Check any stress-table in anyofthe builders' codebooks for a comparison of recommended spans andthicknessamong the different species of wood. The differences here are entirelydueto the abilities of differing woods to resist stresses of deflection (forcesof compression/tension under load). Some wood has strong fiber, packedtightly, and other wood has weak fiber in a pithy matrix. It matters! Andit matters in the cane from which we build our rods as well (and for thesame reason). The strongest resistance to forces of bending come fromthestrongest, outermost layers of fiber. So why in the world would you wanttoignore this by suggesting that it would make no difference if one were tobuild a fly rod inside-out and with no laminate effect? If you wish to find out the truth, build two 2-strip quads to precisely Build one with the power fibers glued to the inside, and the other withthese fibers to the outside. Compare, further, by orienting the centerglue-line first vertically, and then horizontally. Examine each variation,not by subjective "feel," but with some sort of measurable deflection test.Then build a conventional, FOUR-STRIP quad to that same taper (and fromthatsame culm), and compare this rod to the 2-strip versions. Then, put thesame line on each of the rods, in turn, and cast to equal distances (nearand far). Lastly, come back to this list and tell us that all rods were (are)essentially identical. Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod (nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" in thedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is based onthepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the sameamountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along with diameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating atubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more inner ones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre wouldbesubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steel wireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffness theyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, how much?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was a realproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and the otheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Jun 5 15:40:48 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA21014 for ;Sun, 6 Jun 199908:40:40 +1200 Subject: Southern hemisphere gathering - a comercial Planning is well under way with the date set for the first weekend inNovember. There are a dozen or so people attending , and some air pointsaccounts appear to be taking a hit during that period. A second information kit went out last week so those who have indicatedaninerest should get that over the next few days. Anyone who has recently won the lottery , or has just discovered theMircrosoft shares they bought one night years ago when drunk , and hasnowdecided to attend should contact me for details and fishing information . It is not to late to decide to attend !!!!! regards Ian Kearney from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Jun 5 15:41:03 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA21029; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 08:40:44 +1200 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Terry , I was really interested in your comment about using loctite. I find it verydifficult to get ferrules down here in NZ and with the exchange ratesimporting them is expensive. I have therefore recently ordered sometubingand gone to night classes to learn how to use a lathe to make ferrules. However the soldering of the tubing , and the moisture plugs , waspresenting me with a bit of a challenge ,( maybe more night classes) as abean counter by training. I would appreciate any advise on the use of loctite.for example Is it usedloctite used basically like a glue , which grade of loctite is used , arethere any "catches" to watch for ? Many thanks Ian Kearney At 04:20 PM 3/06/99 -0400, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote:Loctite has many advantages over soldering. Rick Crenshaw wrote: I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement! _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Ed_Dickson@bc.sympatico.ca Sat Jun 5 23:46:40 1999 Subject: vertical oven Dear List, I am interested to hear about the pro,s and con,s of thevertical heat gun powered oven. This system appears to be easy to build,cheap and effective. Ifso, I am going to build one for my shop. Thanks from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jun 5 23:52:02 1999 Subject: T & T "Midge" boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0 I have been asked if I know anything about a Thomas & Thomas "Midge", 8 =1/2', 5-wt. Anyone know of this rod and if so, are measurements =available?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0 I have been asked if I knowanything = Thomas & Thomas "Midge", 8 1/2', 5-wt. Anyone know ofthis = if so, are measurements available?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 6 08:44:25 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AB2F3D4E010C; Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:44:15 EDT Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad - tuning Jerry,About a year ago, we had a discussion on the concept of "tuning" a rodafterassembly, by sanding where appropriate. It didn't seem at the time likeanyonewas going to do it.Several books mention this as the true art of the rodmaker. J.A. Knightwrites about rodmakers he knows doing it, and applauds their skill. SinceKnightspent time with Jim Payne developing the parabolic, it is implied that thiswaspracticed in his shop.Congratulations on the successful "tuning". Sure beats beingdisappointed,doesn't it?Best regards,Reed Jerry Snider wrote: Taking a chapter from Darryl's previous experiences, I decidedto sand down to size. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the tworodsfelt identical in their casting qualities. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Jun 6 09:37:10 1999 Subject: Two different rods I built two rods this past winter: a 7 ft 4 wt Grangertaper and a Young Para 15 (heavy tip). Both rods werebuilt from the same culm, heat treated at the sametemperature and length of time, using the same glue,etc. The only difference between the two is the taperand the ferrule. The rod built on the Granger taper isfast and snappy. The rod built on the para 15 taper isslow and kind of heavy. I picked these two tapersbecause I wanted a short light rod for a small troutstream I often fish and a longer rod for long casts ona northern lake filled with brook trout. Problem is, the para 15 rarely throws a tight loop.I'm beginning to think I should have built the dry flytip instead of the heavier tip since distance suffers from the open loop. The Granger throws a very tightloop. So, I can throw a longer line with the Grangerthan I can with the para. This may have more to do with my casting skills but Ican't for the life ofme get a tight loop casting thepara. And yet, this is one of the most popular rodtapers around. I substantially slow down my strokeusing the para but am still unable to get more than 60ft, a distance I can surpass with the Granger whenneeded. Would building the lighter tip create atighter casting loop and make a longer casting rod? Thanks in advance, Richard from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jun 6 09:53:59 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Bill,fly rods are laminated because cane does not grow to order. A hexagonalsection was chosen as a compromise because it more or less resembledthe roundrods it replaced without being too difficult to manufacture.Some rod builders use woodworkers glue for laminating their rods whichis softerthan the cane and should produce a different 'laminate effect' (slippage)thanthe phenolic adhesives. Is this the case?I have never noticed the difference in a rod made from a really thickwalledpiece of cane and one made from a culm less thick, besides the extrawork!Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Seth, The dead zone in the center of a rod is "theoretical" only inasmuch as weshall forever be unable to measure a point of some undetermineddiameter.The dead zone in the center of a fly rod is by no means theoretical INPRACTICE, however, since the centermost areas do not participate in thecompression/tension forces when bending, as do the outermost areas. Now,this, I DO believe, is indisputable, and although the geometric effectsmustsurely be less at the tip-top than at the butt, the facts remain identical. You seem to want to obfuscate the issue, however, by pointing out thatthetip section (because of its small diameter) would benefit less and lessfromthe effect of external power fibers as one draws nearer and nearer tothetip-top (because at the extreme, the power fibers extend all the waythrougheach strip). Similarly, you would suggest that as one moves in the otherdirection (toward the butt), the effect of strong power fibers on thesurface ALSO matters less and less (but this time, presumably, becausethebutt flexes less and one could more easily build-in mass to overcome the"loss" of stiff power-fibers). Once again, you may be "theoretically"correct, while in practice, you are being drawn toward conclusions thatresult in utter nonsense for a fly rod. Rod makers, over the years, have learned that it is important to selectthebest raw materials FOR A REASON, and one of the most important factorshereis to use cane with particularly strong and densely packed power fibers. Wedon't do this just for the hell of it.The stiffer your cane, the stiffer will be a rod of any given taper.Conversely, the more one ignores the attributes of good cane, the weakerwill be a resulting rod of that same given taper. Why do you suppose thisis true, if not because of the resistance to compression and tension thatdensely packed power fibers can contribute? If it were NOT true, thenanyold culm would be as "good" as any other. Secondly, you seem to have inferred that I negated the laminate effect in aquad rod. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, the laminateeffect in a quad is enormous, exactly because in a normal quad, the gluelines extend axially to all four corners. I was discussing, in my earlieremail, the loss of laminate effect in the TWO- STRIP quad (the "PMQ"), wherethere would be only one glue-line running through the center of the rod.The laminate effect IS lost upon such a design because there are nostressforces of compression and tension in a center line (except, minimally,perhaps, if that glue-line were oriented vertically), and hence, nolaminaradvantage. And for the same reason, the contribution of power fiberswouldbe lost as well, if they are oriented inward, toward that center line. Now, ALL of this can easily be overcome if one were simply to increasetheoverall dimensions of the taper in question. Added mass is addedstrength,up to some hypothetical point. But why go down THAT road? Don't wewantthe strongest rod for the LIGHTEST weight? Lastly, Seth, laminates of ANY given thickness become increasinglystrong asthe number of laminated layers also increases (up to some point ofabsurdity, of course). This effect is far, far from theoretical, and theprinciple functions exactly because, in a laminate (of three or morelayers), we are (increasingly) preventing the internal fibers ofthe raw material (whether silk, paper, pine, hickory or cane) fromslippingpast one another when subjected to the stress forces of deflection. Everyarchitect knows this. "Slippage" translates, simply, into relative weakness (in a givencross- section), and weakness (deflection under stress) is slippage.Defeating slippage is the whole point of laminating, and defeatingslippageis ALSO the whole point of choosing cane with the densest power fibers.The accumulation of particularly dense power-fibers is Nature's way ofbuilding a "laminate." Conversely, cane with greater amounts of pithseparating the fibers allows for greater slipping of those fibers past oneanother. Except for a certain, very limited amount of elasticity, howelsecould cane possibly bend AT ALL, ifnot for the effect of fibers slipping past one another in response to thestresses of bending. The effects of fibers slipping past one another are MOST CERTAINLY NOTexaggerated, neither in wood, nor in cane. Check any stress-table in anyofthe builders' codebooks for a comparison of recommended spans andthicknessamong the different species of wood. The differences here are entirelydueto the abilities of differing woods to resist stresses of deflection(forcesof compression/tension under load). Some wood has strong fiber, packedtightly, and other wood has weak fiber in a pithy matrix. It matters! Andit matters in the cane from which we build our rods as well (and for thesame reason). The strongest resistance to forces of bending come fromthestrongest, outermost layers of fiber. So why in the world would youwant toignore this by suggesting that it would make no difference if one were tobuild a fly rod inside-out and with no laminate effect? If you wish to find out the truth, build two 2-strip quads to precisely Build one with the power fibers glued to the inside, and the other withthese fibers to the outside. Compare, further, by orienting the centerglue-line first vertically, and then horizontally. Examine each variation,not by subjective "feel," but with some sort of measurable deflectiontest.Then build a conventional, FOUR-STRIP quad to that same taper (and fromthatsame culm), and compare this rod to the 2-strip versions. Then, put thesame line on each of the rods, in turn, and cast to equal distances (nearand far). Lastly, come back to this list and tell us that all rods were (are)essentially identical. Bill -----Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:29 AMSubject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod(nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" inthedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is basedon thepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the sameamountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along withdiameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating atubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more innerones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre wouldbesubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steelwireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffnesstheyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, howmuch?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was arealproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and theotheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from DavidM5708@aol.com Sun Jun 6 11:00:39 1999 Subject: June update on Arend