from dmanders@telusplanet.net Tue Jun 1 08:28:12 1999 don") bysmtp2.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Tue, 1 Jun 199907:27:56 - 0600 Subject: Re: Technique question for the list rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu At 10:43 AM 5/31/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:John and Don,I need a clarification here. Are you saying that re-flattening orre-straightening a node in a vise works okay after you have the strip in60*triangles? Yupe - got ahead and do it - long as you don't leave the straighteninguntil you're about 0.030" over the final - after that the apex gets a tadmangled. Still, I plane the apex about 0.005" anyway. Doesn't that crush the apex of the triangle? I concede thatstraightening with finger pressure works. But I'm a little hesitant toput thestrip back in the vise after rough planing for fear of crushing the thing. No sweat - see above Some time ago, a fellow lister from Mississippi and I had a discussionaboutour horrible heat and humidity in the deep South causing nodes and otherbendsto re-appear. I've struggled with the same thing. My only solution sofar isto be sure I have the nodes flat and straight before heat treating. Afterheattreating, I try to keep the strips in either an air-tight dessicant filledtube,or a heated drying cabinet. You might try to straighten the strips wet - John Bokstrom does it as wellas he has lead others down the path. Works just fine. Seems like themoisture carries the heat directly through the cane thereby making surethat all of the heat effected area is straight - not the outside fibersholding the inner fibers straight. I would expect that damper climes wouldhave problems like that - don't know - I live where it's fairly dry. Just athought. Don Then again, I'm still learning, and suspect I will be for as long as Ibuildrods. Any input is appreciated. --- Good question, Doc.Harry michael w. shaffer wrote: Guys, I could use some advice at this point, if you don't mind. As I saidyesterday, I did a trial assembly of my strips, and was amazed thattheyactually did look like a hex. Now, for my question: I have the initial 60degree bevels in place, but the strips are still oversized (fudgefactor). Ifound that the nodes, especially in the butt section are not flat enoughtosuit me. Question is, am I too late to reheat and flatten some more? Orwhatwould you suggest at this point? My intentions are for this to be a blondrod, but that isn't written in stone either!Thanks, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from tball@mail.portup.com Tue Jun 1 08:52:10 1999 Subject: 3 Jaw Chuck boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00 I have a Craftsman table top metal lathe I need some advise on. It is =old but still works fairly good for what I do with it. When trying to =use it to turn down the blank at the ferrule station, I have to use a 4 =jaw chuck because it is the only one with the hole thru it. The =question is, can I bore out the 3 jaw chuck without harming its working =ability? Both chucks are screw on and the thread seat does have a hole =bored thru. The hole is about .332 as best as I can measure. Any help =is appreciated.Tom from =Trout Lake ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00 I have a = ferrule station, I have to use a 4 jaw chuck because it is the only one = = Tom from Trout Lake ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01BEAC13.F6AF6B00-- from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Tue Jun 1 09:09:11 1999 out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA57424 for; Tue,1 Jun 1999 14:09:07 GMT Subject: Re: Technique question for the list What about using final forms & a Quick Clamp (or similar)& a small stripof aluminum to spread pressure, instead of vice. Strip would besupported & straightened on sides as well.CheersCraig from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Tue Jun 1 12:39:16 1999 Subject: Re: What is Fast? Word is, however, there will not be another until 2001 (A BambooOdyssey). from stpete@netten.net Tue Jun 1 13:50:04 1999 Subject: Rodmaker's jones I've just spent half an hour with the tech service at my ISP to rectifya problem with my e-mail. I have been trying to rejoin rodmakers forthe last 5 days. Seems my server changed some settings and otherservers don't refresh their settings info but every so often. ANYWAY, I was unaware how isolated I would feel if cut off from thisgroup! Man, I've learned a lot from you guys/gals and was in a nearpanic over the thought of no longer having access to this resource. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone!" Hope I'm really back in, Rick C. from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Tue Jun 1 16:47:11 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Technique question for the list I've heard of someone using an old iron on nodes in the forms. Brian from rcurry@ttlc.net Tue Jun 1 18:06:30 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7BBDF020E; Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:07:39 EDT Subject: Re: The IRS & Rodmakers Chris,Too true, Chris, but the value of the rods and the other items used inbarter are very subjective. The barter system is not tax-exempt, butneitherdoes it represent, to most, an ethical dilemma; nor, IMHO, should it.Theoretically, there is no gain on either side in such a transaction; notangible profit, nothing to declare. "So-and-so gave me 4 reels for a rod"isakin to the innocence of trading baseball cards. [Better strike the allusiontobaseball cards, that's now big business.]The only unambiguous means of determining value accepted by thecitizenry isthrough the common currency. If I have an old, no-name, 9' rod thatsomeonecovets, and they have something that only I, in all this world, findinteresting(probably a 10' wet fly rod) our currency-less transaction has nodiscernablevalue to the state. I will willingly "render to Caesar that which isCaesar's"but he better have a clear way of defining his needs.Best regards,Reed CALucker@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/29/99 6:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,rcurry@ttlc.netwrites: Best regards, >>You are not exempt from the tax even though you only use the bartersystem. from brookie@frii.com Tue Jun 1 18:35:42 1999 Subject: well now, found a classy reel !! Thanks to Jerry Q for giving me this : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.html classy little 'bronze' reel this Forbes is. Only observation ?check out the line that is on that reel, if it is indeed line,might be silk, or might just be backing. the one thing I cannot envision is a bright dayglo green or peach or ? on thatreel. would HAVE to pop for some classy line ! now I'm not in the market for reels right now, but this one gets put into a file to look at later ! suecolorado from Canerods@aol.com Tue Jun 1 18:45:57 1999 Subject: Size 24 ferrules All, I recently pickup up some new (old stock) hand-welted, serrated ferrulessets and if anyone is builting light weight 6' 3 wt's and can use some 24/64ths (3/8") NS ferrules sets, please email me off list. They're "leonard" style (not LEONARD as in Leonard Rods, but Leonard patent-style) that have a straight tube female and shouldered male. Theyseem to be plated with unpolished chrome. I've got 10 sets. I've also 10 sets of truncated, reinforced NS ferrules (not plated) in about (need to measure) 16/64ths. So if anyone is builting some ocean rods or heavy duty salmon rods - now's your chance to stock up at a good price. I'll scan and send a JPG to anyone that's interested. EMAIL ME OFF LIST!!!!! Don Burns Canerods@aol.com PS - Yes, they're size 24 and yes I know that they're not for 3 wt rods! from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jun 1 19:19:38 1999 Subject: RE: Size 24 ferrules Sounds like the perfect thing for rods with a swelledmid section instead of a swelled butt. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Canerods@aol.comSent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 7:44 PM Subject: Size 24 ferrules All, I recently pickup up some new (old stock)hand-welted, serrated ferrules setsand if anyone is builting light weight 6' 3wt's and can use some 24/64ths(3/8") NS ferrules sets, please email me off list. They're "leonard" style (not LEONARD as inLeonard Rods, but Leonardpatent- style) that have a straight tubefemale and shouldered male. They seemto be plated with unpolished chrome. I'vegot 10 sets. I've also 10 sets of truncated, reinforcedNS ferrules (not plated) in about(need to measure) 16/64ths. So if anyone is builting some ocean rods orheavy duty salmon rods - now'syour chance to stock up at a good price. I'll scan and send a JPG to anyone that'sinterested. EMAIL ME OFF LIST!!!!! Don Burns Canerods@aol.com PS - Yes, they're size 24 and yes I knowthat they're not for 3 wt rods! from MasjC1@aol.com Tue Jun 1 19:44:51 1999 Subject: Re: Technique question for the list The last two rods I built I soaked the strips overnight and then did the flattening and straightening. It was much faster -- not as much timespent heating -- than doing dry strips. On the last rod I took a single strip from its soaking bath directly through the flattening, straightening and planedto initial 60 degrees. from the form it went into my drying cabinet for aweek. I then started the final planing. This process worked well for me. The final proof will come in July when I will take the rods fishing in Colorado. Like others on the list in high humidity areas I had problems withhumidity here in Houston. I keep my strips in my drying cabinet at 100 degreesuntil the rod is completed. This has solved most of my problems with bends and nodes not staying straight. Mark Cole from LECLAIR123@aol.com Tue Jun 1 19:54:35 1999 Subject: Re: 3 Jaw Chuck Tom,I see no reason why you can't drill a hole through yourthree jaw chuck. All the chucks I've had here in my shop formy lathes, all had a hole through it. Drilling a hole through itshouldn't hurt any of the jaw workings. Dave L.The Fly and Rod Room from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 1 21:20:23 1999 with ESMTP id ;Wed, 2 Jun 1999 02:19:51 +0000 Subject: Re: well now, found a classy reel !! Sue, The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle a few at theNJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Is that their Thistle(sp?)? If so, it would be a great compliment to a good bamboo rod. Notsuch a terrible price either if I recall correctly... Dennis Sue K wrote: Thanks to Jerry Q for giving me this : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.html classy little 'bronze' reel this Forbes is. Only observation ?check out the line that is on that reel, if it is indeed line,might be silk, or might just be backing. the one thing I cannot envision is a bright dayglo green or peach or ? on thatreel. would HAVE to pop for some classy line ! now I'm not in the market for reels right now, but this onegets put into a file to look at later ! suecolorado from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Jun 1 21:31:44 1999 Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:31:09 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: 3 Jaw Chuck Tom,it's hard to see what the problem would be if you drilled a hole but you'dneed to ensure the hole is centred well as otherwise you may find thechuck the be unbalanced. I'm only guessing here but it dosn't take much. Tony On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Thomas Ball wrote: I have a Craftsman table top metal lathe I need some advise on. It is oldbut stillworks fairly good for what I do with it. When trying to use it to turn downthe blankat the ferrule station, I have to use a 4 jaw chuck because it is the onlyone with thehole thru it. The question is, can I bore out the 3 jaw chuck withoutharming itsworking ability? Both chucks are screw on and the thread seat does havea hole boredthru. The hole is about .332 as best as I can measure. Any help isappreciated.Tom from Trout Lake /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jun 2 07:53:43 1999 Subject: 2 strip quads Bill Fink and Dan Neuschafer each built a 2 strip quad after readingRichard Tyree's article in TPF. The rods both looked and cast better than I would have expected, so I thought I would try one myself. Both Bill and Dan had trouble with straightness, not suprising since the strips were bound upwhen the thickness has been planed, but not the width. The blank is thereforevery irregular at this stage, and next to impossible to straighten while the glue is wet. I had much better luck not binding at all. I got the strips as straight as possible before planing, both at the nodes and in the internodal area. I glued them up after planing the thickness by clamping themtogether along the edge of an angle iron. I used small spring clamps placed every inch. A plastic tape was run along the angle iron to act as a glue release. This method left me with only a few very minor kinks.Bill and Dan built one piece rods, I adapted the taped splice "ferrule" method, which was also successful. I didn't keep track of building time,but doubt that I have more than 12-15 hours in the rod, start to finish. I did everything I could to make the rod ugly, using cheap hardware, and usingsome leftover flamed strips, which produced lighter colored sides and dark topand bottom. Even so, the rod looks pretty decent, and is a fine caster. I brought it to the Grand Gathering last weekend, where it generated a lot ofinterest in the methodThanks to Richard for reviving this idea, it looks to me to be a great wayto experiment with quad tapers.BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method of joiningthe spliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but is frankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have a little stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I would like to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wire ties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to be something that would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to the caneor finish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thin strip of cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of tempered phosphor bronze if need be. from brookie@frii.com Wed Jun 2 08:53:31 1999 Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Is that their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great compliment to a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if I recall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock sounds likeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Wed Jun 2 10:04:16 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:04:12 +0200 Subject: Sv: 2 strip quads Tom Richard and I had a correspondance some time back aboutthe 2-strip quad, dubbed The Poor Mans Quad. Now as then Isuggest The Poor Mans Ferrule: Two pieces of square brasstube, fitting together. Just like a cheap non- serrated ordinaryferrule, just square instead of round. Serrate it, glue it andthat is that. Re: Glueing and planing: After glueing up the two strips, do the final planing of thetwo not yet planed sides this way: Use Your ordinary planingform by simply pressing the piece between the two parts oftheplaningform. I glued up a PMQ thisway, thus getting it VERY straight. regards, Carsten from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jun 2 14:22:10 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id PAA06339; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:21:48 -0400 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels Terry O'Connor (aka J Austin Himself) - just left Grayrock yesterday - heisdue back again in a couple weeks - he is promising to have a surpriseespecially designed for the gathering here - Sue - Did you see the Purplecolor he offers - Gee - i wonder where that idea came from - TuddlesWayne closets to accustom yourselves with activities after dark-----Original Message----- Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Isthat their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great complimentto a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if Irecall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock soundslikeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jun 2 16:10:50 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AE1734B300BE; Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:11:51 EDT Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels constabulary,this is more innocent than it sounds. Really. [Unless I was missingsomething,Wayne.]Best regards,Reed wayne cattanach wrote: hide away inclosets to accustom yourselves with activities after dark from brookie@frii.com Wed Jun 2 17:53:24 1999 Subject: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Wayne had said : Terry O'Connor (aka J Austin Himself) - just left Grayrock yesterday - he is due back again in a couple weeks - he is promising to have a surpriseespecially designed for the gathering here - Sue - Did you see the Purple color he offers- Gee - i wonder where that idea came from - TuddlesWayne Well, you sure had me clicking on all the links on thatwebsite I'll tell ya ! rotten trick. Couldn't find thepurple anything. Closest *I* could come to "purple" wasthe cranberry Saltwater reel and in girl-speak, that is NOT purple ! *VBG*http://www.jaustinforbes.com/jafsalt.html I do see that this chap offers a seven day inspection oftheir rods and reels if they are ordered with a creditcard. I might just have to try out the Aerial, indeed Imight. Fascinating little reel. Question, would someone go to this section of the Forbeswebsite and tell me what kind of hardware on the handle ?http://www.jaustinforbes.com/magreel.htmlSure looks like gold to me. And since we're at it, is magnesium tough enough to handlea few bumps now and again ? suecolorado from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jun 2 18:01:38 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:01:32 -0500 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels I get the idea that sleep is an unaffordable luxury at Grayrock. Wish I wasgoingto be there, but alas, duty demands that I stay away. What's amazing tome isthat I hear all these fish stories, but have yet to see even a single pictureof afish brought to hand during this Michigan madcap. Guess if you really wanttocatch a few fish at one of the gatherings, you need to head south towardsArkansas. Is that perception correct?Harry >evil grin For the benefit of those new to Grayrock, SWMBO, and the localconstabulary,this is more innocent than it sounds. Really. [Unless I was missingsomething,Wayne.]Best regards,Reed from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Wed Jun 2 18:17:41 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:17:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Unless I'm mistaken, Sue, that's gold anodized aluminum on thereel seat hardware. Looks like a Powell handle to me. To quoteDennis Miller, "Of course, that's just my opinion, I could bewrong."I used one of those reel seats on a two-weight graphite rod afew years ago, before I saw the light. Along with TN guides,feather inlays, and burl-cork, it looked plenty flashy. Recentlysold the rod for far more than the sum of component's cost. Now Ihave a few more dollars to pour into building bamboo. Just what Ineed!Unless I'm mistaken, the deck of my lawnmower is magnesium.It oughta be plenty tough. Harry from mevans@acxiom.com Wed Jun 2 21:24:48 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:19:19 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 02 Jun1999 21:19:19-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Wed Jun02 21:19:18 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof finalforms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyone I'vetalked with andwould appreciate some feedback you talented folks on the list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium "dead on" forms? Some have told me that it will be well worth theinvestment after Iget 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told me that a set within about.003 isplenty close. Consensus seems to be that the accuracy of the slope is themain issuebecause you can adjust around the variances. I hear that very talentedrodmakers areall over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. Itis worth the same for the forms? TIA. from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jun 2 21:58:28 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id WAA07489 for ;Wed, 2 Jun 1999 Subject: The Color Purple(and, yes, it is raining) Sue -All the Girls here in Grayrock have Purple (Lyndi - 2 & Cheryl Tiernan -1) - it was created as a Big favor - Terry perhaps has more in stock butnotlisting them at the website - an e-mail should find out.Terry is quite receptive to suggentions and has done some specialreels - he is prototyping one that should be of special interest to the listmembers - He will be working extra hours in hope of unvailing it at thegathering. A Big HI :-) from Grayrock Wayne And Harry - yes, there are fish caught - the problem lies in the factthat it seems that not many have the time to interrupt their intensefishingto take pictures - However, I did get pictures of a certain shop ownerusinga cellular phone on the stream - BOY is he in for a roasting from theFishHead group when they get wind of this. from penr0295@bendnet.com Wed Jun 2 23:36:18 1999 VAA29404 Subject: Pflueger medalist No. 1394 Can anyone tell me when the model 1394 Pflueger Medalist was beingmade? Isuspect the 20's sometime. This is a model marked "Patent Pending" ontheframe, and has the aluminum spool release cover and the turned "baroque"style pillars. No line guard on this 2 3/4" spool version. Wish they stillmade them this way. Thanks,Tom Penrose from drodgers@ddaccess.net Thu Jun 3 08:22:19 1999 ddasvr1.ddaccess.comwith SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Re: Accuracy of Final Forms I purchased my planing form from Jon Lintvet (Munro Rods). I am verypleasedwith it. I have seen the planing forms that Goldenwitch offers they arealsonice. I would have confidence that either of these companies deliver theplaning form quickly.Part of the problem of purchasing a form from some of the places (at acheaper price ) is getting delivery. For example I ordered the roughingform from Colorado Bootstrap in January. I have not gotten yet.So be sure and check on delivery and if they don't deliver within areasonable length of time then find someone else. Dan -----Original Message----- Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof final forms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyoneI've talked with and would appreciate some feedback you talented folks onthe list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium worththe investment after I get 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told methat a set within about .003 is plenty close. Consensus seems to be thatthe accuracy of the slope is the main issue because you can adjust aroundthe variances. I hear that very talented rodmakers are all over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. It is worth the same for the forms? TIA. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jun 3 08:41:45 1999 Subject: Poor Man's Quad The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jun 3 09:07:42 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:04:50 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: 2 strip quads Tom,how about gluing hardwood onto the bearing surfaces and cutting "keys"into the hardwood so the two sections join firmly then bind the scarf asyou would guides. That'd look nice. Tony Thanks to Richard for reviving this idea, it looks to me to be a great wayto experiment with quad tapers.BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method ofjoining the spliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but is frankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have a little stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I would like to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wire ties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to besomething that would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to thecane or finish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thinstrip of cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of tempered phosphor bronze if need be. /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from Mhairi98@hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 10:05:59 1999 Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they were madeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jun 3 10:39:25 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jun 3 10:47:21 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:47:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Accuracy of Final Forms Mark. I think it all depends upon how the error(s) in your tolerances aredistributed along the length of the form. For instance, if at one 5-inchpoint, your form is .003 UNDER a specified dimension, and at the next 5-inchincrement, the form is .003 OVER specs.(and so on along its length), thenyou may have difficulty in setting up your form to produce the taper youdesire. Of course, it can be done, but it may involve a lot of messingabout and testing with your depth gauge. Again, if the form shows these kinds of inaccuracies toward the last 18inches or so in the area of your tip-top, you may be especially perplexed insetting your preferred dimension. And, too, if the groove toward thetip- top is cut too deeply, you may not be able to close the bars closelyenough to produce the dimensions you are after for a small rod. As a last consideration, if your forms come out relatively close to whatyouare looking for (say, +/- .003 in a rather uniformly distributed slope),you can easily touch-up the offending areas, if necessary, with triangularstones. Much depends upon what sort of assurances for tolerances your machinistwillguarantee, but in the final analysis, you will find that as you get betteras a builder, these issues matter less and less. A set of forms that holdsto .003 will be just fine if the slope is uniform, and you will soon learnhow to "adjust" for such variables to produce exactly what you are after. I don't know how much more a set of forms that is "dead on" would cost,butI wouldn't really think it to be worth the expense. Nice to have, but"overkill" in comparison to a set of forms that is, overall, "prettyclose." After a few rods, and learning both how to set up andto plane well, you'll wonder why you wasted your money. Many otherfactors(to do with your own techniques) are more important in producing the rodyou are after. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Accuracy of Final Forms I've been asking a few people off list about the tolerances needed in a setof final forms and have gotten a varied set of opinions. I trust everyoneI've talked with and would appreciate some feedback you talented folks onthe list. If I purchase a set, how much difference does it make to pay the premium worththe investment after I get 5 - 6 rods under my belt. Others have told methat a set within about .003 is plenty close. Consensus seems to be thatthe accuracy of the slope is the main issue because you can adjust aroundthe variances. I hear that very talented rodmakers are all over the map from using wood to Munro/Wagner class forms. I went on and got some very good planes - trusting that it is worth theinvestment. It is worth the same for the forms? TIA. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jun 3 10:56:43 1999 Subject: RE: Poor Man's Quad Okay, I'll bite - five strips and six sides? What is the geometry of that?(I always was bad at figuring out this kind of puzzle.) -----Original Message-----From: Heidt [SMTP:destinycon@mindspring.com]Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if oneofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest powerfibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angleuntilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod everycoupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensateforthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jun 3 11:27:09 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Having the power fibres in the midlle of the rod You might as welluse spaghetti. The tension in the longitudal center of the rod is zerowhich is why You can hollowbuild without any noticeable loss ofpower in the rod. Not being an engineer, I cant give You the figuresbut hopefully someone on the list could provide these. Sorry chaps, won't do. regards Carsten from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Jun 3 11:27:11 1999 Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:26:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Seth, I haven't had any experience in building (or using) quads, but I would thinkit to be a MAJOR mistake in any rod to position the power fibers towardthecenter of a section. Dead center is called "dead" for a very good reason.The center of a flexing shaft undergoes neither compression nor tension,itsimply moves through the moment of the arc. By contrast, the areastowardthe outside walls of a column (in this case, a rod) provide the neededcompression/tension to provide resistance to bending forces. But in theseareas, if you were to build as you suggest, you would have only therelatively weaker (and softer) inner fibers of the culm. If the two strips of the PMQ rod were built as you suggest, with the powerfibers glued together to form a center-line, then you might have some luckonly if that center-line were oriented vertically with respect to guideplacement. But, even so, the rod's strength (or its resistance to bendingforces as derived from "power fibers") would be in effectONLY IN that vertical axis. And the power fibers located in the center ofthe section would still offer no benefit. Further, any movement of the rodthrough its horizontal axis (side-to-side motion) would be even more"willowy" by comparison. Just a semi-educated guess, Seth, coming from a guy whose math skillsdependentirely upon how flexible his fingers are on any given day. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Poor Man's Quad The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod insideout?>That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from saweiss@flash.net Thu Jun 3 11:29:05 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Seth,The greatest stresses are concentrated at the areas of stretching andcompression--the top and bottom of the outside surface. Why put thepowerfibers in the middle, where the neutral area is? I'm not an engineer but itseems to me that power fibers in the middle would defeat the wholeconcept.I have read that this technique was indeed tried eary in the history ofsplit bamboo rods (early 1800's?) in three-strip construction and theoutside was planed round to resemble the wooden rods of the day.Obviously,the technique didn't last very long, as six-strip hex-shaped rods withpowerfibers on the outside dominated the scene not long after mid- century.Steve The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if one ofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sides alternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod inside out?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest power fibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angle untilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod every coupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensate forthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with the WinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Thu Jun 3 11:31:20 1999 199916:29:20 UT 16-1998)) id86256785.005A7D11 ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:28:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium is what they make racing wheels out of - where the term "mag"camefrom. The nifty part is it burns! That's the flash of fire you see when anIndycar hits the wall. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from stuart.tod@virgin.net Thu Jun 3 11:32:08 1999 (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:31:07 +0100 Subject: Re: very old fly rods Mhairi.....Have you read the 'Compleat Angler', by old Izaac? He describes how tomakea rod using the 'contemporary' materials he had then. Stuart(the last Welsh cane rodmaker!) ----- Original Message ----- Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they were madeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jun 3 12:02:46 1999 Subject: RE: Poor Man's Quad Frank,I just knew some one would make me have to try this. He used adoublebuilt triangle in the center then glued on three more triangle pieces tothe out side forming a larger triangle (power fibers in). Making fivetotal strips. He then planed the apexes of the glued-up triangle blank toa hex. I was able to examine one (wasn't able to cast it) a few yearsback. It had no glue lines on the corners, there were seams running downthe center of three flats that widened as the taper got smaller showingthestrips underneth. Hope this drawing comes out looking some what like itleft. / \/ \- ----------------final planing to hex / \ / \/___________\/ \ /\/ \ / \/ \______/ \/ \ / \/ \ / \/___________\/__________\ Regards,Gary H. At 12:00 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:Okay, I'll bite - five strips and six sides? What is the geometry of that?(I always was bad at figuring out this kind of puzzle.) -----Original Message-----From: Heidt [SMTP:destinycon@mindspring.com]Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This has been done in many forms, one of the most notable wasGeorgeParker Holden's five strip six sided rod that put all of the power fibersin the center.Gary H. At 09:45 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Seth Steinzor wrote:The last few posts about the PMQ got me thinking - always dangerous,especially for those of us with little experience. It sounds as if oneofthe major drawbacks to the PMQ is aesthetic - the sides don't match inappearance, since you've got "outside" surfaces on two sidesalternatingwith "inside" surfaces. But suppose you constructed the rod insideout?That is, after removing the enamel and flattening, you glue the two"outside" surfaces together. This way you have the densest powerfibresatthe core of the rod. You could even maximize this effect by doing thiswithoversize strips, then planing the corners away at a 45 degree angleuntilyou get your final taper - you'd probably want to turn the rod everycoupleof passes. Then use a good tough varnish and lots of it to compensateforthe fact that you've got the softer part of the strips exposed. If this is either obvious or stupid, please ignore it - it's just whathappens to me when I have to sit in my office all day with theWinooskiRiver a few hundred yards away. :-) from SalarFly@aol.com Thu Jun 3 12:03:47 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Having the power fibres in the midlle of the rod You might as welluse spaghetti. The tension in the longitudal center of the rod is zerowhich is why You can hollowbuild without any noticeable loss ofpower in the rod. This is true if indeed you have a strip that runs out of power fibers within the depth of the strip. I have found that this rarely happens.All the rods I have made have good power fibers throughout theentire diameter. The argument can be made that the better powerfibers are towards the outside of a culm, so you would be placingthe better fibers in the middle where there is zero stress, but inmy experimentation with planing away up to .010 of the enamelside of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl from brookie@frii.com Thu Jun 3 12:08:27 1999 Subject: Re: very old fly rods I cross posted ( excluding the email address of the requestor onRodMakers' post because I had not gotten her permission )Rose Mary Garrels' question about rods 500 years ago to another listserv I belong to . Interesting, here is the responseI got : The Treatise of Fishing With an Angle (1400's) contains instructions on how to build a rod, although I personally findthem a little confusing. The text of the treatise can be found in The Origins of Angling, by the late John McDonald, which was reprinted by Lyons and Burford. The printed version of the Treatise also contains a drawing of a rod. Both materials and construction were wildly different from those in use today. Here is a brief summary of what the Treatise says: the rod would be of three parts, a hollow butt section about nine feet long and as thick as your arm, and a two piece tip, the pieces of which are bound together permanently with cord. The tip is stored insidethe hollow butt, and as I understand it, telescopes out to makea rod of 13 to 18 feet. The upper end of the tip section was reinforced with cord and a loop of cord at the tip served to attach the line. There were no guides. A spike on the butt would haveserved to plant the rod in the ground for still-fishing. At thetime, there was apparently no distinction between fly-fishing tackleand "that other stuff." The butt was made of hazel, willow, or aspen. The lower part ofthe tip was made of green hazel. The tip was "blackthorn, crabtree,medlar, or juniper." What medlar was, I don't know. Amusingly, one of the cited benefits of the telescoping rod was secrecy: "And thus you will make for yourself a rod so secret that you canwalk with it, and no one will know what you are going to do." Fromthis, we can draw two possible conclusions: 1) medieval anglers were as secretive about their favorite holes as modern ones, or 2) angling in the middle ages had the same faintly disreputable air as it does today, being a sport practised by wayward souls of a mendacious and secretive spirit. Not quite sure I can relate to 2) .... but it did make me laugh. But I'd say a pretty good 'lead' for Rose and husband as regards thebook. Now the trick will be to find it... suecolorado from lathebaby@yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 12:14:17 1999 1999 10:14:15 PDT Subject: Soldering Nickle Silver I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not. Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from tom@cet-inc.com Thu Jun 3 13:06:29 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver RickOn the advise of Mr. Zimny, I've been using Sta-Brite Silver Solder. Itcomes in a kit with liquid flux. MSC has the kits for $7.10 ea. It melts ata fairly low temp, somewhere around 300 degrees F and I use a MAPP gastorchwith a very low flame (a propane torch may even work better). Tom----- Original Message ----- Subject: Soldering Nickle Silver I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jun 3 13:28:23 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Rick,I have been using silver solder with a liquid flux for many years inbuilding guns and such. It is very strong and has a melting point somewhere around 300 degrees. I have used it to solder on barrel lugs and nickle silver gun sights and have had the best luck with it. Make sure your stuff is really clean or you will have a failure with the joints.Bret from richlob@jps.net Thu Jun 3 14:19:26 1999 Subject: TEST Hi every one I will send an Intro laterThanks Rich Lob from bobspring@yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 15:05:45 1999 1999 13:05:54 PDT Subject: Fairy Rod Does anybody know anything about a Hardy "Fairy" Fly Rod? 8"6', 5.5oz,3 piecePalakona Bamboo Taper?History?Dates of Manufacture?How used?Etc. Bob Springmeyer _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jun 3 15:17:33 1999 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Loctite has many advantages over soldering. Rick Crenshaw wrote: I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement!_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jun 3 15:35:18 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA24257 for ;Thu, 3 Jun 1999 Subject: Way Cool Poster - TTBBBQ - V Commerative www.troutbums.com/dyna3.cfm from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jun 3 16:54:32 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id RAA29269; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:54:27 -0400 Subject: Re: the Forbes' reels Sue -All the Girls here in Grayrock have Purple (Lyndi - 2 & Cheryl Tiernan -1) - it was created as a Big favor - Terry perhaps has more in stock butnotlisting them at the website - an e-mail should find out.Terry is quite receptive to suggentions and has done some specialreels - he is prototyping one that should be of special interest to the listmembers - He will be working extra hours in hope of unvailing it at thegathering.A Big HI :-) from GrayrockWayneAnd Harry - yes, there are fish caught - the problem lies in the factthat it seems that not many have the time to interrupt their intensefishingto take pictures - However, I did get pictures of a certain shop ownerusinga cellular phone on the stream - BOY is he in for a roasting from theFishHead group when they get wind of this. -----Original Message----- Subject: the Forbes' reels they sure are purty ! The Forbes reels are really nice. I got a chance to handle afew at the NJ Flyfisher's show in Somerset this year. Isthat their Thistle (sp?)? If so, it would be a great complimentto a good bamboo rod. Not such a terrible price either if Irecall correctly... Well, no the first url I posted was the "Aerial ", the Thistle is at thisurl :http://www.jaustinforbes.com/thistle/thistle.html I was looking at the Aerial again : http://www.jaustinforbes.com/millbronze.htmland see nother ' problem ' that I would have with it, that open facethere, where you see the innards ... like looking into clockworks.Wonder if you would get all manner of debris in there to clog up themechanism ? As simple as these reels are, one little tiny rock soundslikeyou have thrown a wrench into it. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jun 3 17:56:13 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl wrote side of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips,being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 strip QuadG from anglport@con2.com Thu Jun 3 21:37:58 1999 Subject: Test from BambooRods@aol.com Thu Jun 3 22:57:18 1999 Subject: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposal out rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" to cast and evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a 6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 01:17:41 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips, being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... They seem to break pretty much the same way to me...What types of differences do you notice? OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. I have seen rods made this way, as someone else has mentionedthere used to be someone who made them this way. It casted like a"normal" rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 stripQuad G No pproblems with glueing, and node straightening could be done fairlyquickly..... I have yet to see a culm with a power fiber layer thick enough to make aone strip rod. If culms like this exist, perhaps a one strip rod could be made. Darryl from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 02:13:11 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad -- They seem to break pretty much the same way to me...What types of differences do you notice? This is testing my vocabulary to the limits, but I'll give ita try: Looking at the end of a strip, it can roughly be dividedinto 3 zones: Outer layer, some 1/10 of an inch thick, the middlelayer made of fairly dense fibres, and the last layer, which isthe yellowish pith. Try wetting the end of the strip, and the outerlayer turns into a brownish black, the middle layer somewhatlighter in colour and the pith doesn't change colour - well almostnot. When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Wetting the end of the culm is how I determine the quality andquantity of power fibres in a culm. I think Mother Nature had a specific reason for making bamboohollow in the middle and putting the power fibres on the outside.Bamboo Naturel is a pretty smart solution, dont You think? regards, Carsten from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Jun 4 09:47:16 1999 Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:47:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad All,We need to consider, too, the effect of glue-lines themselves upon thestrength (resistance to forces of bending) in a fly rod. In an ordinary6- strip rod, we are creating a laminate which surely gains much of itsstrength from the mere fact of individual strips being glued together. Eachglue-line causes just that much more resistance to the (natural) tendencyofthe cane fibers to "slip past" one another when subjected to thecompression/tension forces of bending. In the PMQ rod in question, I should think that a single glue-line runningalong the center line (whether oriented horizontally or vertically) wouldprovide a negligible amount of resistance to fiber-slipping. Laminatestrength is barely noticeable with the joining of only two laminates(because of the central location of the glue-line), but becomesincreasingly significant only upon gluing three or more laminates. Buildersof laminate floor joists, beams (and so on) for home construction knowthiswell. The 2-strip "quad" would gain little-or-nothing from the laminate effect,and the single strip rod would be worse still. Neither of thesealternatives would able to resist bending forces except by virtue ofmassively exaggerated taper design (but at least the 2-strip rod COULDbenefit from having its power fibers oriented on two of the outsidesurfaces). Power fibers MATTER, for Pete's sake, and so does the laminate effect ofglue-lines. Both of these considerations need to be brought to bear indesigning a rod's maximum resistance to bending. A rod's strength doesnotcome only from the distribution of mass within the taper design. And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of cane aredense enough, and so, are all about the same. Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl wrote side of a strip (for appearance) there is little actual difference inthe outside power fibers and the inside power fibers - AS LONGAS THERE IS ADEQUATE POWER FIBERS THROUGHOUTTHE ENTIRE STRIP! Darryl This is true when talking tip strips, but when it comes to butt strips,being thicker,Just try to break a single strip and then tell me, that the fibres breakin the same way all through....... OK, so spaghetti might not be the right frase, but I still maintain thatmaking a rod "inside out" will result in a rod nowhere near the crispaction we all know and cherish in a cane rod. If the powerfibres are the same all through, why not make a 1 strip QuadGNo pproblems with glueing, and node straightening could be done fairlyquickly..... regards, Carsten from Canerods@aol.com Fri Jun 4 10:31:37 1999 Subject: Planes All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - many brandsand models are compared. There's also information on replacement blades andcap irons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should be happy!) as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding a Clifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was the wayto improve even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Jun 4 12:24:03 1999 0400 Subject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod (nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" in thedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is based onthepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the same amountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along with diameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating a tubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more inner ones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre would besubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steel wireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffness theyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, how much?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was a realproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and the otheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 12:47:18 1999 Subject: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 2:51:43 PM, you wrote: Bill - You do raise an interesting point. I think the glue lines do make a difference, but not very much. I think you can see this in 6 strip construction. My experience has been that Urac, which dries harder thanother glues also produces a slightly crisper rod, but not by much. Flamed vsbaked seems to have the same effect. I think you can compensate for theseeffects with minor adjustments in taper. I don't know chapter and verse on themath, but in terms of resistance to deflrction, I believe the effect of thickness is exponential, while most of the other factors are directly related. I'm not trying to sell the two strip rod to anyone, just to say they are interesting. If I were trying to BS someone into buying one, I think you could make a case that they are the purest cane casting experience you can have, since the glue line has no theoretical effect on the rod's action. --I ought to get a job writing catalogs.I concurr with what you and Carsten have said about the fine power fibers.I like the idea of having a thin sheath of them around the rod. Not because I think they enhance the casting so much, but because I think they are thebest protection you can have against boulders and tree branches and the other stuff that interrupts your casting from time to time. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Jun 4 13:03:49 1999 LAA17076; (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: poor mans quad Mr. Smithwick I think that everyone should have a chance at casting yourspiral rod, infact you ought to do a posting of your method and experiences makingthem. Those of usthat got a chance to cast it at Corbette lake were greatly impressed and I love to make one. It's the first rod that I've ever seen that even poorcasters likemyself could easily get all the way into the backing. ----------From: TSmithwick@aol.com[SMTP:TSmithwick@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:46 AM Subject: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 2:51:43 PM, you wrote: strength (resistance to forces of bending) in a fly rod.>> Bill - You do raise an interesting point. I think the glue lines do make a difference, but not very much. I think you can see this in 6 strip construction. My experience has been that Urac, which dries harder thanother glues also produces a slightly crisper rod, but not by much. Flamed vsbaked seems to have the same effect. I think you can compensate for theseeffects with minor adjustments in taper. I don't know chapter and verse on themath, but in terms of resistance to deflrction, I believe the effect of thickness is exponential, while most of the other factors are directly related. I'm not trying to sell the two strip rod to anyone, just to say they are interesting. If I were trying to BS someone into buying one, I think you could make a case that they are the purest cane casting experience youcan have, since the glue line has no theoretical effect on the rod's action. --I ought to get a job writing catalogs.I concurr with what you and Carsten have said about the fine powerfibers. I like the idea of having a thin sheath of them around the rod. Not becauseI think they enhance the casting so much, but because I think they are thebest protection you can have against boulders and tree branches and the other stuff that interrupts your casting from time to time. from brookie@frii.com Fri Jun 4 13:15:23 1999 Subject: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WOW, just back from skipping around the Troutbums website. I originallywent over to look at the 'new poster' that Wayne was heralding :http://www.TroutBums.com/dyna3.cfm Good golly Miss Molly ! Now there's an eclectic fly fisher ! Gawd awfulcap, those ARE cutts, right ? If that showed up on a creek of mine inColorado, I'd run like ---- downstream !! *G* But more interesting to me, I went into other areas of the website, inparticular drifted into the Makers' Rod section :http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/ Because I have not been on this List but a few months, I of course didn'tknow about the 1998 cane rod built by 28 rod makers. What a raffleprize,along with the leather case, the sack, the line, etc. AMAZING. Wish I hadknown about it. Is there a list of the 28 makers that were involved ? Isuspect many came from this listserv, yes ? Now the question is, after clicking on the next link,http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/winner98.htm, I see that there isto bea Makers' Rod in 2000, constructed by six living cane builders who havewritten books re rodmaking, and the raffle tickets for that were going onsale in Spring 1999. No question, this is a dynamite way to raise funds for flyfishing causes !Creative, energetic, and makes me wish I had about 10 years under my beltin cane building ( I have none by the way , I'm working up to it ) *G* Sooooooo ? How does one get raffle tickets for this ! I'm in ifpossible! suecolorado from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:24:02 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:18:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, scan.oest@post.tele.dk writes: When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Remember I said power fibers all the way through. No pith.Are you sure the outer layer is power fibers and not enamel? Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:33:13 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of cane aredense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from chris@artistree.com Fri Jun 4 13:48:14 1999 Subject: Re: Planes And he has a waiting list! -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Canerods@aol.com wrote: OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 13:58:55 1999 Subject: Re: RE: poor mans quad In a message dated 6/4/99 6:03:59 PM, Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.comwrote: I'm doing the best I can, Patrick. I just got back from the Grand Gathering, where I put on my Dog and Pony show for the people up there. It was agreat time, put on by a great bunch of people.Perhaps you are right that I should write up an article for the web site describing the method. My original "Planing Form" article was re-printedin "The Best Of The Planing Form", and is still in print as far as I know. The Lambuth book is hard to get, but does show up once in a while. I would be glad to help anyone who wants to try to build one of the things. It really isn't hard, but does take more time and fussing. As you and others whohave cast the rods know, they are one approach to rods which are superiordistance casters. That does not mean they are superior fishing rods, which is a completely different thing. BTW- Mr. Smithwick is my fathers name. Everyone just calls me Tom. from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 14:03:18 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:03:14 +0200 Subject: Sv: Poor Man's Quad When breaking a hardened strip, the outer layer opens up withlong, thin splinters, something like an inch or more long. Middlelayer opens up in shorter and thicker pieces and the pith just breaks clean. Remember I said power fibers all the way through. No pith.Are you sure the outer layer is power fibers and not enamel? Darryl Power fibres are NOT just power fibres. They come in differentthicknesses, and the density is different from the outside to theinnerside. Hence the different colour of the strip, becominglighter in colour at the inside. Never noticed the enamel could break, forming long thin splinters.AS far as I know, the enamel is the hard, waxy layer on the outsidewhich we remove with a Sandvik scraper, or whatever. On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff,presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there isbetweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using for rodmaking. I assume we can agree, that there are more pushing/pulling on the outsidethan in the center of a rod, or Bamboo Naturel, when bent. from this I conclude that the outside, thin and closely spaced fibres aremoreresistent to breaking than the coarser fibres nearer the center of thebamboo.This coinside with the simple test of breaking a split. Doing that one willnoticewhat I described earlier about the nature of the broken fibres. regards, Carsten from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jun 4 14:25:40 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id PAA28735; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:25:28 -0400 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Brookie -The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors there areanother 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as many othertalentedcontributers - David Ruimveld is this years featured artist - you wereasking about one of his works earlier. Even though the image of a TTBBBQ -Vattendee may lead one to believe that those attending aren't seriousindividuals I would focus your attention to the fact that there was some$29,650 raise around last years event - which I feel is reflective of thequality of those involved. GEE :-) Sue - what do you have planned for nextJune???????? Fish ON !!!!! Wayne -----Original Message----- Subject: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WOW, just back from skipping around the Troutbums website. I originallywent over to look at the 'new poster' that Wayne was heralding :http://www.TroutBums.com/dyna3.cfm Good golly Miss Molly ! Now there's an eclectic fly fisher ! Gawd awfulcap, those ARE cutts, right ? If that showed up on a creek of mine inColorado, I'd run like ---- downstream !! *G* But more interesting to me, I went into other areas of the website, inparticular drifted into the Makers' Rod section :http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/ Because I have not been on this List but a few months, I of course didn'tknow about the 1998 cane rod built by 28 rod makers. What a raffleprize,along with the leather case, the sack, the line, etc. AMAZING. Wish I hadknown about it. Is there a list of the 28 makers that were involved ? Isuspect many came from this listserv, yes ? Now the question is, after clicking on the next link,http://www.troutbums.com/makersrod/winner98.htm, I see that there isto bea Makers' Rod in 2000, constructed by six living cane builders who havewritten books re rodmaking, and the raffle tickets for that were going onsale in Spring 1999. No question, this is a dynamite way to raise funds for flyfishing causes !Creative, energetic, and makes me wish I had about 10 years under mybeltin cane building ( I have none by the way , I'm working up to it ) *G* Sooooooo ? How does one get raffle tickets for this ! I'm in ifpossible! suecolorado from brookie@frii.com Fri Jun 4 14:50:55 1999 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as many other talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featured artist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe that those attending aren't serious individuals I would focus your attention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around last years event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98 Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ? Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it ! I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it, but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers were scattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from dpvbkjs@somtel.com Fri Jun 4 15:18:53 1999 Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:18:46 -0400 Subject: Re: 2 strip quads Tom,I had a great time casting your rods at the "Grand". What about bindingthe two halves of the PMQ with nylon guide wrapping thread? Davidin Maine BTW - I would love to hear some suggestions on a better method ofjoining thespliced ferrule. I have been using electricians tape, which works, but isfrankly butt ugly. The requirement for the tape is that it should have alittle stretch, and not so much tack that it pulls off the finish. I wouldlike to find a transparent tape that would work. Other suggestions? wireties? Chinese cuff? heat shrink tube? Obviously, it needs to be somethingthat would hold the splice firmly, but release without damage to the caneorfinish. Right now, I back each side of the splice with a glued on thin stripof cane for reinforcement, This could also be a thin strip of temperedphosphor bronze if need be. from SalarFly@aol.com Fri Jun 4 15:57:57 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:04:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cmj@post11.tele.dk writes: On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff, presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there is betweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using forrodmaking. That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I would haverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff was planedaway. Or if the white stuff was only down around the handle and reel seat,where there is no stress on the blank at all. Have you seen the picture of the cross section in Tom Morgan's brochure for his Hand Mill? Solid power fibers all the way through. That's what cross sections of my rods looklike. Darryl from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Jun 4 16:12:25 1999 "BambooRods@aol.com" Subject: Re: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Doug No problem - I'm bringing lots of different lines with me both plasticand silk - Reed should have his share. We should be able to get an accurate assessment of what line will make these rods come alive. Chris On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:54:53 EDT, BambooRods@aol.com wrote: Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposalout rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" to cast and evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a 6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from cbogart@shentel.net Fri Jun 4 17:11:52 1999 "TSmithwick@aol.com" Subject: Poor Man's Hex - The next step Tom Reflecting on your comments on that the PMQ is a good way to whipouta rod to check out potential tapers w/o much investment of time or justto get a good fishing rod to beat up on those trips that could cause damage to agood rod - why cannot the same method be used to generate a poor man's Hex.Here'show. Plane the two strips and glue like you did for the PMQ to get thediameter.Now instead of planing the sides square - bevel each corner of one side tothe centerof the glue line to the enamel side. A jig with a 45 degree angle cut in itwould allowyouto get the bevel easily by putting in the 90 degree side of the PMQ downand planingflat on top. Now you have one side - you can then plane the last two sidesopposite the bevel. Bingo - a PMH. It would be interesting to make a match set of PMQ / PMH of a taperto see what the differences would be. Chris from cmj@post11.tele.dk Fri Jun 4 18:11:20 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: Poor Man's Quad ----->That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I wouldhaverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff was planed away. Got a PHY Catalog from 1956. On page 7 is a picture of yet another sawnover rod, looking exactly like the one in Garrisons book. Wonder why PHYtoo used lousy bamboo. Well, what was good enough for them, most certainly is good enough forme, but I guess I ought set my standards somewhat higher. And with this confession of my lowly niveau I henceforth close this case.Still don't know why anybody would want to make an "inside out" rod....... regards, Carsten from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 18:32:55 1999 Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step In a message dated 6/4/99 10:17:39 PM, you wrote: Actually Chris, This would give you an asymmetrical hex. I think you would want to use a 60* jig to get a hex. However, you could use a 45* jig and leave a flat in the middle instead of planing to the centerline, and end up with the poor man's octo. That might be pretty interesting ,too. from cattanac@wmis.net Fri Jun 4 19:43:55 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id UAA21884; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Sue -The idea of the Makers Rod surfaced at the wake...Scottish you know ...after TTBBBQ III in Vic Edwards garage - There were a handful of makerspresent. The logistics was that each maker was to make one strip for a 7'6"3 piece 2 tipped rod - (6strips per section = 24 makers) - the extramakerswere my son and daughter who helped me with one strip and Kim WalkerandGlen Brackett from Winston did a strip together. Needless to say the rodcould be called the most unique rod ever made - the makers created stripsoftheir normal making - ie - flamed, blonde, nodeless - the makers were across section of experience with one individual contributing some of hisfirst work. It is estimated that the rod (strips and such) traveled some35,000 mile to be created - Yes there were a couple bugs but everyoneinvolved did a great job and there is a happy camper in Washington statewhowon the package -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as manyother talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featuredartist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe thatthose attending aren't serious individuals I would focus yourattention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around lastyears event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ?Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it !I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it,but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers werescattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Jun 4 19:57:50 1999 Subject: Spiral rod taper I just realized I never published this. Here is the taper for the 7 1/2 foot 6 weight, which has been well received at the rodmakers gatherings. Thisis the lighter butt version. If you make it with a spiral butt, and one straight and one spiral tip, you will have a fine all purpose rod. The spiral tip is stiffer, causing the rod to have a slower, wet fly type action, and is powerful for casting streamers, etc. The straight tip will have a lighter, dry fly type action. I think it would be fine as a straight rod also.0- .0725- .08310- .10715-.12420-.14025-.15430-.16735-.18040-.19245-.20450-.21955- .23360-.24765-.26070-.27575-.28880-.31085-.33090-.340 from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jun 4 21:33:56 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id ACEE3EFB00D4; Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:35:26 EDT "BambooRods@aol.com" Subject: Re: Consultant needed for Wt Verification Doug,As you are aware, the usual charge for such services is one lager atSpike's.See you there.Best regards,Reed Chris Bogart wrote: Doug No problem - I'm bringing lots of different lines with me bothplasticand silk - Reed should have his share. We should be able to get anaccurateassessment of what line will make these rods come alive. Chris On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:54:53 EDT, BambooRods@aol.com wrote: Boy sounds like something that you would have to fill a grant proposalout rods that Alex Huber has sent me and I would like for the "guru's" tocastand evaluate the wts. at Grayrock. He has them marked as a 5/6 and a6/7. I think other wise. Be prepared.Doug Hall from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Fri Jun 4 23:43:45 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:43:24 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Planes Just further to this, anybody interested in making their own planes andit's not that difficult should take a look at Wooden Boat #147 March/April99 on page 36-42. Using the ideas in this article you could make asuperior plane any size you wish.It wouldn't be hard to have the metal parts of the body ie. the sole andsides cast in bronze if you wanted to. Tony On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 Canerods@aol.com wrote: All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - manybrands and models are compared. There's also information on replacement bladesand cap irons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should behappy!) as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding a Clifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was theway to improve even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:29:20 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium also provided the "flash" in flashbulbs (anyone remember thosethings??). George Bourke PS-- Titanium burns too. (Looking for a good fire extinguisher beforetryingto turn the stuff on the lathe.) -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Find Waldo, or the Purple Rain ??!! Magnesium is what they make racing wheels out of - where the term"mag"camefrom. The nifty part is it burns! That's the flash of fire you see when anIndycar hits the wall. Best regards,-Ed Estlow from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:29:27 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: very old fly rods There was a book written by a woman on fly fishing around the end of the1300's that isn't too hard to find (wish I remembered the title). Also, youmight check into the Rogan family of Donnegal, Ireland...they have beentying flies for over 500 years (scissors are reported to be the only toolthey use!). George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: very old fly rods He there. This is the first itme I've sent mail here. My husband and are aretrying to research fly fishing equipment and practices of the middleages. So far we have found information about lines, leaders and flies -both how to make them and some general suggestions for materials touse. We are assuming that rod construction was, like many other crafts,essentiallly the same, (or at least quite similar), as the techniquesstill used today. The one thing we have not been able to find is whatkind of materials were used. We do know rods were used because we'veseen contemporary pictures of folks using them. Does anyone havesuggestions of resources we could access to find out what they weremadeof? Thanks, Rose Mary Garrels from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 01:42:23 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.06 118-133) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Planes Isn't the Holtey a smoothing plane? (But, I believe they make blades youcan purchase for other planes.) George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Planes All, There's a must read article in the June "Fine Woodworking" - many brandsandmodels are compared. There's also information on replacement blades andcapirons. To paraphase some of the results: The Hock blade ($28.75) didn't test out as well (Terry A. should be happy!)as the Holtey blade ($70) made from A2 steel. But it seems that adding aClifton two piece cap iron ($23.75) to a Clifton bade ($59.95) was thewaytoimprove even the cheapest of the tested planes. (Anant) OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jun 5 07:44:55 1999 Subject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! Sounds like 'Murder on the Orient Express', everyone gets a stab!Terry wayne cattanach wrote: Sue -The idea of the Makers Rod surfaced at the wake...Scottish you know ...after TTBBBQ III in Vic Edwards garage - There were a handful of makerspresent. The logistics was that each maker was to make one strip for a7' 6"3 piece 2 tipped rod - (6strips per section = 24 makers) - the extramakerswere my son and daughter who helped me with one strip and Kim WalkerandGlen Brackett from Winston did a strip together. Needless to say the rodcould be called the most unique rod ever made - the makers createdstrips oftheir normal making - ie - flamed, blonde, nodeless - the makers were across section of experience with one individual contributing some of hisfirst work. It is estimated that the rod (strips and such) traveled some35,000 mile to be created - Yes there were a couple bugs but everyoneinvolved did a great job and there is a happy camper in Washington statewhowon the package -----Original Message-----From: Sue K. Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 3:58 PMSubject: Re: The Makers' Rod for 2000 ! WC wrote : The Makers Rod 00 tickets are being printed this week - they wereproduced earlier with some problems - Along with the 6 authors thereare another 21 rodmakers involved with the rod as well as manyother talented contributers - David Ruimveld is this years featuredartist - you were asking about one of his works earlier. Even thoughthe image of a TTBBBQ - V attendee may lead one to believe thatthose attending aren't serious individuals I would focus yourattention to the fact that there was some $29,650 raise around lastyears event - which I feel is reflective of the quality of thoseinvolved. Amazing ! Goes to show you CAN rally the troops -- $29,650 is quite afeat. Congrats big time. Bet you outdo yourselves this coming yeartoo. I have to ask the question, with 28 rodmakers involved in the '98Makers' Rod, and similar number in '00, what do they all do towardsthe completion of the two tipped rod ? One might submit just ONEof six pieces of the tip ? or do two wraps on the trip top guide or ?Not being rude here, just can't envision the logistics of this. Tell yawhat, as much as I am NOT an archive person, if someone WILL findthe url for the logistics of how the '98 was done, I'd love to read it !I do logistical planning where I work, always fancied myself o.k. at it,but this intriques me. Especially that the 28 '98 rodmakers werescattered throughout the U.S. ( and Canada ? ) .... cheers,suePS: no longer just asking about the Ruimveld work, done ordered it ! from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 07:58:10 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:58:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad Darryl, One can't be certain why you didn't notice a difference, but for one thing,planing or sanding away .010 of an inch may not be a sufficient amount toreveal a difference -- especially if some portion of this thickness wasenamel. If you look into the end of a cleanly-cut strip of good cane (asI'm sure you've done as often as have I), one notices that the first layerof power fibers lying just on the surface is typically about .015-.018thick, and these are backed by a staggered, second layer of fibers about.018-.022. Going deeper than that, "layers," as such, are notdistinguishable. One also notices that the fibers quickly become largerandlarger in diameter after these first two layers, but that the pith areaseparating the fibers also become larger and larger. Admittedly, "power fiber" is a relative term, since it is not possible todetermine a clear line of demarcation where they "end," and the termbecomes even more relative from one culm to the next. But in all culms,atall points along their length, these power fibers are the smallest and inthe greatest in concentration (and also are separated by the least amountofpith) just toward the outermost .030-.035 of the surface. How can thatfact, which is clearly visible with the naked eye, NOT be significant as animportant factor in resisting the forces of bending? In selecting culms of cane for building one of our most importantconsiderations, at the outset, is always to look into the cut-end for thegreatest concentration of outer fibers, that also continues the greatestdistance into the wall thickness. We do that for a very good reason, and itis because that "ideal" culm will provide the builder with the greatestresistance to forces of bending. We know this matters, because rods builtof culms with a less dense concentration of power fibers will not producethe same crisp action in a given taper. Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth ofthepower fibers. If it were not so, then any old culm could be used, and wecould plane the enamel side instead of fussing with filing, straighteningand careful sanding, and all rods would turn out about the same,regardless. As a final thought on the rods you mentioned, although you might not haveNOTICED a difference, the only true test for "noticing difference" wouldhave been to construct two identical rods from the same culm -- one withthepower fibers planed (or sanded) away, and the other with these intact. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of canearedense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 08:11:59 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:11:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Darryl, I am looking at the color photo you mention in Morgan's brochure even as Itype this. And I have to say, Darryl, that you are mistaken about the powerfibers extending "all the way through," even on this excellent example ofexcellent cane. The cane shows very tightly bundled fibers with aminimumamount of pith separating the fibers, but not all the fibers you see are"power fibers." Moreover, the amount of separating pith increases asone's eye proceeds toward the center of the section (as, in all cane, itwill always do). IT IS NOT ALL THE SAME throughout, and not allnice-looking fibers are what we call "power fiber." Darryl, this matters! Cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/4/99 12:04:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,cmj@post11.tele.dk writes: On page 70 in my copy of Garrisons book there is a picture of a sawnthrough rod. from this picture You will notice the different thicknessof the power fibres, those on the outside being thinner than thosenearer the center. Furthermore, there is less of the light stuff,presumablywhat is called pith, between the fibres on the outside, than there isbetweenthe innermost fibres. This looks like the bamboo I am using forrodmaking. That's what I consider to be a poor strip to use in a rod, and I would haverejected that bamboo except for tip strips - if all that white stuff wasplanedaway. Or if the white stuff was only down around the handle and reelseat,where there is no stress on the blank at all. Have you seen the picture ofthe cross section in Tom Morgan's brochure for his Hand Mill? Solidpowerfibers all the way through. That's what cross sections of my rods looklike. Darryl from cbogart@shentel.net Sat Jun 5 08:20:10 1999 "TSmithwick@aol.com" Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step Tom You are right on the 60 degrees. However, last night I was thinking about this a bit more and realizedthat the Gink could really benefit from this to successfully create hisBastard Rod.This two strip method is definitely "thinking out of the box". He has beentrying tomanufacture a rod the old fashioned way and has run into all the problemsfaced previous emailthat this two strip Hex rod could easily be mass produced using aBellinger / Dickersonmill without the problems of 6 strip constructed rods. Here is my soon to be patented process (licenses for process can behad 1. Prep strips using Medved Beveler to get them uniform. You shouldusethe square guide Al uses for dressing strips prior to splicing and nottriangle one. The width of the strips should be approx 1.3 times the widest intendedsection diameter. These strips should be slightly rectangle (forget abouttriangles). 2. Cut your taper template for the mill as usual using the straightcutter. 3. Set the template to the position for normal milling. 4. Put one of your preped rectangle strips in mill using the straightcuttercut your taper. I figure you can really whip these through the mill quickly. 5. Now, you can laminate your strips together (notice I did not sayglue).using contact cement. This will eliminate all the clamping, binding, anddrying timeproblems. (Hey what you want for a bastard rod.) This is quick - spread thestuff, letit get dry and carefully lay one strip on top of the other and press. 6. You may want to dress the strips after laminating using theMedved Beveler 7. Now put the 60 degree cutting head on the mill. 8. Now run you laminated strips through the mill with the Apex of the60 degreecutting head set for a height 1.5 times you diameter of the taper. This willbevel thesidesperfectly. 9 Flip the strip and run through the mill again. 10 Finished! You now have a completed glued up Poor Mans Hexshaped section. It is ready for light final sanding and ready for ferrules! As you can see this really automates the production of making thesethings w/oa lot of fuss and mess. I also note that this process can be easily adaptedto theMorgan Hand Mill. I also believe that if you leave on the straight cutter on you can make yourPMQ's thesame way. I think I will call my first rod built using this process "TheGinkensteinSpecial" . I think usingthis method I could seriously challenge for the low end market and put abamboo rod inevery flyfisherman'shands. Isn't technology wonderful - Chris On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:29:01 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/4/99 10:17:39 PM, you wrote: to get the bevel>> Actually Chris, This would give you an asymmetrical hex. I think youwould want to use a 60* jig to get a hex. However, you could use a 45* jig and leave a flat in the middle instead of planing to the centerline, and end up with the poor man's octo. That might be pretty interesting ,too. from sniderja@email.uc.edu Sat Jun 5 08:27:46 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad I can't address the .010 thickness of sanding Sir Darryl mentions, but Ican address the construction of two "identical" rods from the same culm. Irecently built two Sir Darryl specials. One came out very close (within.002) to the original specs. The second rod came out ca. .007 -.008oversized. Taking a chapter from Darryl's previous experiences, I decidedto sand down to size. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the two rodsfelt identical in their casting qualities. Both rods had CFO III reels onthem, identical lines, and I had my wife randomly select the rods and handthem to me so I could cast them, frequently mixing them up in the process.(Unfortunately, I did not do a true "blindfold" test.) I simply could nottell any difference out to ca. 60+ feet, nor could I determine anydifferences as close as 10'. IMNSHO, I have been told that I am a betterthan average caster (perhaps not for the first 25 years, but certainly forthe more recent 25 years). So, sanding up to .006 off the surface at leastI could not tell any difference. I, like Darryl, use fibers to the verycenter of the rod. I have not mentioned this to anyone earlier because Isuppose that I thought it likely reflected on my inadequate rod-buildingskills. BTW, the two folks who inherited these rods (one through our club'sgrand prize raffle, the other as a gift) are not aware of the above, andthink that the rods are "the berries." Both consider the rods to be amongthe quicker bamboo rods they have cast.I might add that I sand the enamel off right after completing the roughplaning and prior to final planing, so enamel thickness was not included inthe sanding down to final size. At 08:56 AM 6/5/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Darryl, One can't be certain why you didn't notice a difference, but for one thing,planing or sanding away .010 of an inch may not be a sufficient amounttoreveal a difference -- especially if some portion of this thickness wasenamel. If you look into the end of a cleanly-cut strip of good cane (asI'm sure you've done as often as have I), one notices that the first layerof power fibers lying just on the surface is typically about .015-.018thick, and these are backed by a staggered, second layer of fibers about.018-.022. Going deeper than that, "layers," as such, are notdistinguishable. One also notices that the fibers quickly become largerandlarger in diameter after these first two layers, but that the pith areaseparating the fibers also become larger and larger. Admittedly, "power fiber" is a relative term, since it is not possible todetermine a clear line of demarcation where they "end," and the termbecomes even more relative from one culm to the next. But in all culms,atall points along their length, these power fibers are the smallest and inthe greatest in concentration (and also are separated by the least amountofpith) just toward the outermost .030-.035 of the surface. How can thatfact, which is clearly visible with the naked eye, NOT be significant as animportant factor in resisting the forces of bending? In selecting culms of cane for building one of our most importantconsiderations, at the outset, is always to look into the cut-end for thegreatest concentration of outer fibers, that also continues the greatestdistance into the wall thickness. We do that for a very good reason, anditis because that "ideal" culm will provide the builder with the greatestresistance to forces of bending. We know this matters, because rodsbuiltof culms with a less dense concentration of power fibers will notproducethe same crisp action in a given taper. Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth ofthepower fibers. If it were not so, then any old culm could be used, and wecould plane the enamel side instead of fussing with filing, straighteningand careful sanding, and all rods would turn out about the same,regardless. As a final thought on the rods you mentioned, although you might not haveNOTICED a difference, the only true test for "noticing difference" wouldhave been to construct two identical rods from the same culm -- onewith thepower fibers planed (or sanded) away, and the other with these intact. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 11:42 AMSubject: Re: Poor Man's Quad And itmost certainly IS NOT TRUE that all the fibers within a strip of canearedense enough, and so, are all about the same. I need futher convincing on this point. I have made rods where I planedaway the outer enamel and power fibers .010 of an inch and didn't seeany difference in the strength or resiliency of the resulting rod. If theouter power fibers are supposed to be so much better than the innerpower fibers why didn't planing them away make a big difference?Again - I made sure there was adequate power fibers all the waythrough. No pith. Darryl from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Jun 5 08:42:36 1999 Subject: Re: poor man's hex- the next step In a message dated 6/5/99 1:20:10 PM, cbogart@shentel.net wrote: Chris - I marvel at your wisdom! from Canerods@aol.com Sat Jun 5 09:45:55 1999 Subject: Re: Planes Chris, Longer than a famous rodmaker's? Don B. In a message dated 6/4/99 11:48:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, chris@artistree.com writes: And he has a waiting list! -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Canerods@aol.com wrote: OBTW, anyone on the list own a Holtey # A 13 plane? ($3,800) Yikes!!! Don Burns from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jun 5 14:44:40 1999 Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:44:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Seth, The dead zone in the center of a rod is "theoretical" only inasmuch as weshall forever be unable to measure a point of some undetermined diameter.The dead zone in the center of a fly rod is by no means theoretical INPRACTICE, however, since the centermost areas do not participate in thecompression/tension forces when bending, as do the outermost areas. Now,this, I DO believe, is indisputable, and although the geometric effectsmustsurely be less at the tip-top than at the butt, the facts remain identical. You seem to want to obfuscate the issue, however, by pointing out that thetip section (because of its small diameter) would benefit less and lessfromthe effect of external power fibers as one draws nearer and nearer to thetip-top (because at the extreme, the power fibers extend all the waythrougheach strip). Similarly, you would suggest that as one moves in the otherdirection (toward the butt), the effect of strong power fibers on thesurface ALSO matters less and less (but this time, presumably, becausethebutt flexes less and one could more easily build-in mass to overcome the"loss" of stiff power-fibers). Once again, you may be "theoretically"correct, while in practice, you are being drawn toward conclusions thatresult in utter nonsense for a fly rod. Rod makers, over the years, have learned that it is important to select thebest raw materials FOR A REASON, and one of the most important factorshereis to use cane with particularly strong and densely packed power fibers. Wedon't do this just for the hell of it.The stiffer your cane, the stiffer will be a rod of any given taper.Conversely, the more one ignores the attributes of good cane, the weakerwill be a resulting rod of that same given taper. Why do you suppose thisis true, if not because of the resistance to compression and tension thatdensely packed power fibers can contribute? If it were NOT true, then anyold culm would be as "good" as any other. Secondly, you seem to have inferred that I negated the laminate effect inaquad rod. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, the laminateeffect in a quad is enormous, exactly because in a normal quad, the gluelines extend axially to all four corners. I was discussing, in my earlieremail, the loss of laminate effect in the TWO- STRIP quad (the "PMQ"), wherethere would be only one glue-line running through the center of the rod.The laminate effect IS lost upon such a design because there are no stressforces of compression and tension in a center line (except, minimally,perhaps, if that glue-line were oriented vertically), and hence, no laminaradvantage. And for the same reason, the contribution of power fiberswouldbe lost as well, if they are oriented inward, toward that center line. Now, ALL of this can easily be overcome if one were simply to increasetheoverall dimensions of the taper in question. Added mass is addedstrength,up to some hypothetical point. But why go down THAT road? Don't wewantthe strongest rod for the LIGHTEST weight? Lastly, Seth, laminates of ANY given thickness become increasingly strongasthe number of laminated layers also increases (up to some point ofabsurdity, of course). This effect is far, far from theoretical, and theprinciple functions exactly because, in a laminate (of three or morelayers), we are (increasingly) preventing the internal fibers ofthe raw material (whether silk, paper, pine, hickory or cane) from slippingpast one another when subjected to the stress forces of deflection. Everyarchitect knows this. "Slippage" translates, simply, into relative weakness (in a givencross- section), and weakness (deflection under stress) is slippage.Defeating slippage is the whole point of laminating, and defeatingslippageis ALSO the whole point of choosing cane with the densest power fibers.The accumulation of particularly dense power-fibers is Nature's way ofbuilding a "laminate." Conversely, cane with greater amounts of pithseparating the fibers allows for greater slipping of those fibers past oneanother. Except for a certain, very limited amount of elasticity, how elsecould cane possibly bend AT ALL, ifnot for the effect of fibers slipping past one another in response to thestresses of bending. The effects of fibers slipping past one another are MOST CERTAINLY NOTexaggerated, neither in wood, nor in cane. Check any stress-table in anyofthe builders' codebooks for a comparison of recommended spans andthicknessamong the different species of wood. The differences here are entirelydueto the abilities of differing woods to resist stresses of deflection (forcesof compression/tension under load). Some wood has strong fiber, packedtightly, and other wood has weak fiber in a pithy matrix. It matters! Andit matters in the cane from which we build our rods as well (and for thesame reason). The strongest resistance to forces of bending come fromthestrongest, outermost layers of fiber. So why in the world would you wanttoignore this by suggesting that it would make no difference if one were tobuild a fly rod inside-out and with no laminate effect? If you wish to find out the truth, build two 2-strip quads to precisely Build one with the power fibers glued to the inside, and the other withthese fibers to the outside. Compare, further, by orienting the centerglue-line first vertically, and then horizontally. Examine each variation,not by subjective "feel," but with some sort of measurable deflection test.Then build a conventional, FOUR-STRIP quad to that same taper (and fromthatsame culm), and compare this rod to the 2-strip versions. Then, put thesame line on each of the rods, in turn, and cast to equal distances (nearand far). Lastly, come back to this list and tell us that all rods were (are)essentially identical. Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod (nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" in thedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is based onthepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the sameamountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along with diameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating atubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more inner ones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre wouldbesubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steel wireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffness theyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, how much?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was a realproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and the otheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Jun 5 15:40:48 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA21014 for ;Sun, 6 Jun 199908:40:40 +1200 Subject: Southern hemisphere gathering - a comercial Planning is well under way with the date set for the first weekend inNovember. There are a dozen or so people attending , and some air pointsaccounts appear to be taking a hit during that period. A second information kit went out last week so those who have indicatedaninerest should get that over the next few days. Anyone who has recently won the lottery , or has just discovered theMircrosoft shares they bought one night years ago when drunk , and hasnowdecided to attend should contact me for details and fishing information . It is not to late to decide to attend !!!!! regards Ian Kearney from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Sat Jun 5 15:41:03 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA21029; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 08:40:44 +1200 Subject: Re: Soldering Nickle Silver Terry , I was really interested in your comment about using loctite. I find it verydifficult to get ferrules down here in NZ and with the exchange ratesimporting them is expensive. I have therefore recently ordered sometubingand gone to night classes to learn how to use a lathe to make ferrules. However the soldering of the tubing , and the moisture plugs , waspresenting me with a bit of a challenge ,( maybe more night classes) as abean counter by training. I would appreciate any advise on the use of loctite.for example Is it usedloctite used basically like a glue , which grade of loctite is used , arethere any "catches" to watch for ? Many thanks Ian Kearney At 04:20 PM 3/06/99 -0400, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote:Loctite has many advantages over soldering. Rick Crenshaw wrote: I have a question I'm sure someone here can answer. How do I solderNickle Silver? I'm especially interesting in soldering tubes to makeferrules and for soldering moisture plugs. I'd like to know thetechnique, the tools required, and the types of solder and flux used. TIA, Rick Crenshaw Who is currently on the list via yahoo! which will deliver mail to meat my same old address even though the rodmakers list servercannot/will not.Is a puzzlement! _________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com from Ed_Dickson@bc.sympatico.ca Sat Jun 5 23:46:40 1999 Subject: vertical oven Dear List, I am interested to hear about the pro,s and con,s of thevertical heat gun powered oven. This system appears to be easy to build,cheap and effective. Ifso, I am going to build one for my shop. Thanks from saweiss@flash.net Sat Jun 5 23:52:02 1999 Subject: T & T "Midge" boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0 I have been asked if I know anything about a Thomas & Thomas "Midge", 8 =1/2', 5-wt. Anyone know of this rod and if so, are measurements =available?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0 I have been asked if I knowanything = Thomas & Thomas "Midge", 8 1/2', 5-wt. Anyone know ofthis = if so, are measurements available?Thanks,Steve ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01BEAFA6.09FA8EC0-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jun 6 08:44:25 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AB2F3D4E010C; Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:44:15 EDT Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad - tuning Jerry,About a year ago, we had a discussion on the concept of "tuning" a rodafterassembly, by sanding where appropriate. It didn't seem at the time likeanyonewas going to do it.Several books mention this as the true art of the rodmaker. J.A. Knightwrites about rodmakers he knows doing it, and applauds their skill. SinceKnightspent time with Jim Payne developing the parabolic, it is implied that thiswaspracticed in his shop.Congratulations on the successful "tuning". Sure beats beingdisappointed,doesn't it?Best regards,Reed Jerry Snider wrote: Taking a chapter from Darryl's previous experiences, I decidedto sand down to size. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the tworodsfelt identical in their casting qualities. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Jun 6 09:37:10 1999 Subject: Two different rods I built two rods this past winter: a 7 ft 4 wt Grangertaper and a Young Para 15 (heavy tip). Both rods werebuilt from the same culm, heat treated at the sametemperature and length of time, using the same glue,etc. The only difference between the two is the taperand the ferrule. The rod built on the Granger taper isfast and snappy. The rod built on the para 15 taper isslow and kind of heavy. I picked these two tapersbecause I wanted a short light rod for a small troutstream I often fish and a longer rod for long casts ona northern lake filled with brook trout. Problem is, the para 15 rarely throws a tight loop.I'm beginning to think I should have built the dry flytip instead of the heavier tip since distance suffers from the open loop. The Granger throws a very tightloop. So, I can throw a longer line with the Grangerthan I can with the para. This may have more to do with my casting skills but Ican't for the life ofme get a tight loop casting thepara. And yet, this is one of the most popular rodtapers around. I substantially slow down my strokeusing the para but am still unable to get more than 60ft, a distance I can surpass with the Granger whenneeded. Would building the lighter tip create atighter casting loop and make a longer casting rod? Thanks in advance, Richard from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jun 6 09:53:59 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad Bill,fly rods are laminated because cane does not grow to order. A hexagonalsection was chosen as a compromise because it more or less resembledthe roundrods it replaced without being too difficult to manufacture.Some rod builders use woodworkers glue for laminating their rods whichis softerthan the cane and should produce a different 'laminate effect' (slippage)thanthe phenolic adhesives. Is this the case?I have never noticed the difference in a rod made from a really thickwalledpiece of cane and one made from a culm less thick, besides the extrawork!Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Seth, The dead zone in the center of a rod is "theoretical" only inasmuch as weshall forever be unable to measure a point of some undetermineddiameter.The dead zone in the center of a fly rod is by no means theoretical INPRACTICE, however, since the centermost areas do not participate in thecompression/tension forces when bending, as do the outermost areas. Now,this, I DO believe, is indisputable, and although the geometric effectsmustsurely be less at the tip-top than at the butt, the facts remain identical. You seem to want to obfuscate the issue, however, by pointing out thatthetip section (because of its small diameter) would benefit less and lessfromthe effect of external power fibers as one draws nearer and nearer tothetip-top (because at the extreme, the power fibers extend all the waythrougheach strip). Similarly, you would suggest that as one moves in the otherdirection (toward the butt), the effect of strong power fibers on thesurface ALSO matters less and less (but this time, presumably, becausethebutt flexes less and one could more easily build-in mass to overcome the"loss" of stiff power-fibers). Once again, you may be "theoretically"correct, while in practice, you are being drawn toward conclusions thatresult in utter nonsense for a fly rod. Rod makers, over the years, have learned that it is important to selectthebest raw materials FOR A REASON, and one of the most important factorshereis to use cane with particularly strong and densely packed power fibers. Wedon't do this just for the hell of it.The stiffer your cane, the stiffer will be a rod of any given taper.Conversely, the more one ignores the attributes of good cane, the weakerwill be a resulting rod of that same given taper. Why do you suppose thisis true, if not because of the resistance to compression and tension thatdensely packed power fibers can contribute? If it were NOT true, thenanyold culm would be as "good" as any other. Secondly, you seem to have inferred that I negated the laminate effect in aquad rod. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, the laminateeffect in a quad is enormous, exactly because in a normal quad, the gluelines extend axially to all four corners. I was discussing, in my earlieremail, the loss of laminate effect in the TWO- STRIP quad (the "PMQ"), wherethere would be only one glue-line running through the center of the rod.The laminate effect IS lost upon such a design because there are nostressforces of compression and tension in a center line (except, minimally,perhaps, if that glue-line were oriented vertically), and hence, nolaminaradvantage. And for the same reason, the contribution of power fiberswouldbe lost as well, if they are oriented inward, toward that center line. Now, ALL of this can easily be overcome if one were simply to increasetheoverall dimensions of the taper in question. Added mass is addedstrength,up to some hypothetical point. But why go down THAT road? Don't wewantthe strongest rod for the LIGHTEST weight? Lastly, Seth, laminates of ANY given thickness become increasinglystrong asthe number of laminated layers also increases (up to some point ofabsurdity, of course). This effect is far, far from theoretical, and theprinciple functions exactly because, in a laminate (of three or morelayers), we are (increasingly) preventing the internal fibers ofthe raw material (whether silk, paper, pine, hickory or cane) fromslippingpast one another when subjected to the stress forces of deflection. Everyarchitect knows this. "Slippage" translates, simply, into relative weakness (in a givencross- section), and weakness (deflection under stress) is slippage.Defeating slippage is the whole point of laminating, and defeatingslippageis ALSO the whole point of choosing cane with the densest power fibers.The accumulation of particularly dense power-fibers is Nature's way ofbuilding a "laminate." Conversely, cane with greater amounts of pithseparating the fibers allows for greater slipping of those fibers past oneanother. Except for a certain, very limited amount of elasticity, howelsecould cane possibly bend AT ALL, ifnot for the effect of fibers slipping past one another in response to thestresses of bending. The effects of fibers slipping past one another are MOST CERTAINLY NOTexaggerated, neither in wood, nor in cane. Check any stress-table in anyofthe builders' codebooks for a comparison of recommended spans andthicknessamong the different species of wood. The differences here are entirelydueto the abilities of differing woods to resist stresses of deflection(forcesof compression/tension under load). Some wood has strong fiber, packedtightly, and other wood has weak fiber in a pithy matrix. It matters! Andit matters in the cane from which we build our rods as well (and for thesame reason). The strongest resistance to forces of bending come fromthestrongest, outermost layers of fiber. So why in the world would youwant toignore this by suggesting that it would make no difference if one were tobuild a fly rod inside-out and with no laminate effect? If you wish to find out the truth, build two 2-strip quads to precisely Build one with the power fibers glued to the inside, and the other withthese fibers to the outside. Compare, further, by orienting the centerglue-line first vertically, and then horizontally. Examine each variation,not by subjective "feel," but with some sort of measurable deflectiontest.Then build a conventional, FOUR-STRIP quad to that same taper (and fromthatsame culm), and compare this rod to the 2-strip versions. Then, put thesame line on each of the rods, in turn, and cast to equal distances (nearand far). Lastly, come back to this list and tell us that all rods were (are)essentially identical. Bill -----Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor Date: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:29 AMSubject: RE: Sv: Poor Man's Quad I'm not convinced by the arguments against the "inside-out" PMQ rod(nowthere's a phrase worthy of George Gehrke). The vaunted "dead zone" inthedead center of the rod is a theoretical concept. It has infinitesimaldiameter. As you move out from it, you see incrementally increasingtension/compression. The argument based on the "dead zone" is basedon thepremise that a tube is stiffer than a solid rod containing the sameamountof material, and that this stiffness bonus increases along withdiameter.Thus, putting the outside power fibres on the outside would, by thistheory,yield a rod of the maximum stiffness because you would be creating atubeofthe greatest possible diameter with your stiffest material. But we arestill talking about a tube of a very small diameter; we do not know howmuchstiffer the outer power fibres would be than the slightly more innerones(if at all); we do not know, in fact, if the stiffest area of fibre wouldbesubstantially displaced inwards by placing the enamel side of the stripinwards; even if some stiffness is lost, the loss is probably greatest inthe butt, where it matters least. Given the minuscule dimensions of tipstrips, even in a quad it is hard to imagine that there is much of agradient from outer to inner, or even any gradient at all, if you're usinghalfway decent cane. To put it another way: if you stick a thin steelwireup the middle of a strand of spaghetti, it will stand straight up. If youstick a thin steel wire up the middle of a strand of slighly softer steel,it will stand straight up pretty stiffly. Maybe not as stiffly as if theharder steel was on the outside. The issue is, not whether it makes adifference, but how much of a difference does it make? Secondly, if the "lamination effect" is lost in a quad, why do quad usersseem to notice above all other characteristics the quickness of theserods?Isn't that a function of stiffness and resiliency? Furthermore, I havenever heard of anyone comparing glues on the basis of the stiffnesstheyaddto the rod. Does URAC add more spine than resorcinol? If so, howmuch?Who knows? Lastly, I think it is likely that the effects of "slippage" ofunglued fibres past each other are greatly exaggerated. If this was arealproblem in rod design, the best solution would be to dissolve theinteguments that bind the power fibres together and replace them withglue.Is anybody doing this? Well, that's quite a mouthful on the basis of having built one single rod.But it is a sweet little rod. Anyway, this is all speculation. Maybe thiswinter I'll build two quads on the same taper, one inside out and theotheroutside in. Unless Darryl beats me to it. :-) from DavidM5708@aol.com Sun Jun 6 11:00:39 1999 Subject: June update on Arend Happy D-Day Rodmakers. It's time for an update on the Arend Shopinventory as folks are getting involved in more leisure activities. The June 6 inventory is below. I would hope all of you will pass the word on the two classic machines. They represent a big part of rod making history and deserve a proper home. Thanks to Brian Thoman, the machines are still pictured at www.bambooflyrods.com/arend/mill.jpg and straightener.jpg, and straightenerside.jpg. Remember, you can contact me at llohman@juno.com or at 303-794-3827. Lori AREND ROD SHOP - MATERIALS INVENTORY MATERIALS Description RodsSouthbend323, 9 foot, 1 tip 1Unsigned36," 1 tip 137," 1 tip needs ferrule reattached 137," 1 tip, corded grip 138," worn, needs ferrule reattached 142," 1 tip, needs tip top 142*," 1 tip needs tip top 154," 1 tip 1 Spinning or casting rods36*" Wright McGill glass45" glass, needs repairmisc sections/rod bundles 11 Other MaterialsNo 18xxxx Reg. Laboratory Corks @500Reel seats, Weir & Son new 81. r/s bore .405, down locking walnut, black anodize2. r/s bore 3/8, up locking walnut, black anodize3. r/ bore 3/8, down locking walnut, black anodize4. r/s bore .405, down locking walnut, black anodize (poxie patch)5. r/s bore 3/8, down locking walnut, black anodize 6. r/s bore 3/8, up locking walnut, polished7. r/s bore 3/8, sliding ring chestnut, black anodize8. r/s bore 3/8, sliding ring chestnut, polishedReel seats, assorted and most used 30+Barnstite envelopeGlue wipes 4/64 to 22/64Rouge envelopeSolder Wrapping finish bottle THREADBelding Silk A (50 -100 yd. spools)Blue - 1 + spoolsBright pink - 1 spoolsPurple - 1Green - 1 spoolslight purple - 1 partialpale blue/green - 1 partiallt. Green - 2 + spoolsdk Green - 2 spoolsbright Green - 1 spoolOlive Green - 2 spoolscopper - 1 partialwhite - 1 partialPurple - 1 partial spoolstan - 1 spoolbright deep pink - 1 spoolmauve - 2 spoolsmaroon - 1 spoolssalmon - 2 spoolsBrown - 2 spoolsBlack - 1 spoollt. Brown - 1 spoolYellow - 1 partial spoolsFortisan 00, 3/4 wt. (925 yd spools) Tan - 21 plus 2 partial spoolsRed - 24 plus partial spoolsMaroon - 18 plus 2 partialWhite - 2 amost full spoolsYellow - 1 spoolGudebrod Bros. Silk 00 (50 yd. spools)Maroon - 1 spoolOrange - 2 spoolsGuide-Wind Silk (50 yd. spools)Purple - 3 spoolsYellow - 1 spoolsOrange - 1 spoolsRices Silk - 00 (50 yd. spools)Red -color 111 2 + spoolsred #114 3 spoolsBlue #23 - 2 spoolsOrange color 109 - 18 + spoolsRices Silk (925 yd. spools)color # 1841 00 machine silk Lt. Green - 19 spools Misc. colors nylon 10 spools AREND ROD SHOP - TOOL INVENTORY TOOL Description Alcohol lamp with extra wickingAssorted files and rasps 23Assorted fractional drills Belt driven drill press (antique) with 26" x 29" benchBench vise model 6161Bunsen burner 1Cane cutting/milling machine 9' by 17" wide - 1930 classicon a cast iron lathe bed (about 2500 lbs) will cost $500to get off site, heavy movers needed with 3/4 HP motorCane roller guides 3Center punch - various 4Combination monkey and pipe wrench 1Combination square 9" (2)Cork grip tools variousCut cane receiving table 16" x 34"Dial gage w/stand Starret .000 - .200Drill bits boxElectrically heated hydraulic straightening press- channel iron, can be cut in to 2 sections, 6 pistons, steel platens (4) will need professional movingExternal chuck jaws 2Feeler gage set 1Form cutter for mortise wood arborsHammer, ball peen 10"Hammer, ball peen 12"Hammer, claw and tack 12"Hand drill (antique) 12"Hand drill (antique) 17"Hand drill (antique) 18"Hand drill (antique) 9"Hand drill (antique) 12"Hand dryer (antique) 1Honing stones various sizesKnife holder hand toolKnife, Linoleum 1Large drill bits-hole saw mandrels 7Machine and Pipe taps, various 5Micrometer, adapted 1Motor driven drum sander 1Needle file set Great Neck 6 pc, 5 1/2"Nicholson files boxedNumbering dies 0-9 boxed setO2 gage and pressure dial with tank of compressed argonOhaus box weights 1-200 gramOilstone in casePlane, block 13"Plane, block 5"Plane, block 5 1/2"Plane, block Stanley No. 248Plane, surface with 5 cutters, boxed Stanley No. 248APliers, cutter 2Pliers, long nose 2Portalgn drill platform hand toolPower drill 3/8 chuckPropane torch w/ partial tankPump oil can 6 oz.Ratchet 1Rough finishing bench 32" x 60"Rubber mallet 1Sanding block 5"Sanding block 6 12"Sanding block No. 436 hand formSanding drums 3 sizesSaw, circular (antique) 1Saw, hand 20" DunlapSaw, hand with mitre box - 12"Scalpel handles 2Screwdrivers assorted smallSocket 5/8"Soldering iron 200 wattSplitting and sanding bench 30" x 55"Storage cabinet, 2 shelf w/door 48" x 24" x 14"Surgical clamp 1Tap wrench 1Thread holder with 4 spikesTom Thumb hacksaw with 3 bladesTomahawk 3-way socket wrench 1Tongs (antique) 1Vacuum dust collector for mill with 1/2 HP motorVarnish drying cabinet 13" x 32" x 42"Varnish mixer for use w/machine 1Varnishing bench 29" x 48"Wire brush 1Wrapping bench 28" x 48"Wrench (2) 1/2"Wrench (2) 11/16"Wrench (2) 7/16"Wrench, adjustable 12"Wrench, adjustable 6"Wrench, adjustable (antique) 14"Wrench, monkey 10"Wrench, pipe 10"Wrench, pipe 14"Wrench, pipe and monkey 12"Yankee No. 31 screw driver 1 J.T. LOHMAN - MISCELLANEOUS INVENTORY ITEM Books and MiscellanyHow to Fish Good, Milford (Stanley) Poltroon, 1971Sport Fishing USA, U.S. Fish and Wildlife ServiceMcClane's Standard Fishing Encyclopedia, A.J. McClane, ed., 1965Secrets of Successful Fishing, Henry Shakespeare, 1966Scottish Borders Angling Guide, n.d.Angling in the Scottish Borders, n.d.Fishing Tackle and Techniques, Dick Wolff, 1961A Modern Dry-Fly Code, Vincent C. Marinaro, 1970 (to John from Al) 1st ed.Trout, Ernest Schwiebert (2 vols), 1978 1st editionThe Official Colorado Fishing and Hunting Guide, 1962-63, Tim Kelley, ed.The Official Colorado Fishing and Hunting Guide, 1966-67, Tim Kelley, ed.The Official Colorado Fishing and Hunting Guide, 1968-69, Tim Kelley, ed.The Official Colorado Fishing and Hunting Guide, 1970-71, Tim Kelley, ed.Colorado Recreation Guide, 5th editionA Look Back, A 65 Year History of the Colorado Game and Fish Dept., 1961Fishermen's Digest, Erwin A. Bauer, ed., 8th anniversary ed. CatalogsAmerican Machinist--December 16, 1946--May 1, 1940Brown & Sharpe Small Tools, 1924Brown & Sharpe Shop Tool Manual, 8/76Carbology-- Turning - n.d--Milling - n.d.--All-in-one - n.d--Tool Manual - June 1941Cook's Stream Guide and Fishing Manual, 1937Dave Cook's 60th Anniversary Sale, 1938 Tackle BargainsLandis Thread Tips July 1946M.L. Foss, Inc., 1935 hardboundMachinery, July 1940Zelenda Metric, 1970 Magazines and JournalsColorado Outdoors--v. 7, no. 3, May-June 1958--v. 8, nos. 3 & 5, 1959--v. 9, nos. 1, 2, 1960--v. 10, nos. 1 & 3-6, 1961--v. 11, nos. 2-4, 6, 1962--v. 12, nos. 1-2, 4-6, 1963--v. 13, nos. 1-6, 1964--v. 14, nos. 1-6, 1965--v. 15, nos. 1-6, 1966--v. 16, nos. 1-6, 1967--v. 17, nos. 1- 6, 1968--v. 18, nos. 1-6, 1969--v. 19, nos. 1-6, 1970--v. 20, nos. 1-6, 1971--v. 21, nos. 1-6, 1972--v. 22, nos. 1-6, 1973--v. 23, nos. 1-6, 1974-- v. 24, nos. 1-6, 1975--v. 25, nos. 1-6, 1976 (2 ea. 1, 2, 4, 5)--v. 26, nos. 1- 6, 1977--v. 27, nos. 1-6, 1978--v. 28, nos. 1-6, 1979--v. 29, nos. 1-6, 1980--v. 30, nos. 1-3, 1981 Fly Fisherman--v. 1, no. 1, May 1969--v. 4, no. 6, June/July 1973--v. 5, nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 1974--v. 6, nos. 1-7, 1974-75 (2 ea. #6, 7)--v. 7, nos. 1-7 1975- 76 (2 ea. #2, 3, 5)--v. 8, nos. 1-7, 1976-77--v. 9, nos. 1-7, 1977-78--v. 10, nos. 1-7, 1978-79--v. 11, nos. 1-6, 1979-80--v. 12, nos. 1-6, 1980-81--v. 13, nos. 1-6, 1981-82--v. 14, nos. 1-6, 1982-83 (2 #2)--v. 15, nos. 1-6, 1983-84--v. 16, nos. 1-6, 1984-85--1985 Buyer's Guide--v. 17, nos. 1-4, 1985-86Modern Machine Shop, May 1937Progress-National Tool and Die Journal, June 1940Western Sportsman--February 1941--May 1941Field and Stream--December 1981--January-December 1982Outdoor Life, October 1975Outdoor Life, October 1984Montana Outdoors--vol 8, nos 2, 5-7, 1977- -vol 9, nos 1-3 from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Sun Jun 6 16:03:07 1999 (BST) Subject: Whipping boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEB068.40BF0360" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEB068.40BF0360 How many of you whip by hand and how many use a turning motor of some =sort?If by machine what sort and how do you control the tension?ThanksTim. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEB068.40BF0360 How many of you whip by hand andhow = turning motor of some sort?If by machine what sort and how do you control tension?ThanksTim. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEB068.40BF0360-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sun Jun 6 16:19:09 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:19:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Whipping Tim,Back when I was in elementary school, we listened with muchweeping and gnashing of teeth to tales of that special "whippingmachine" the mean old Schoolmaster had hidden away in a closetbehind his office. Belts with spikes attached to a motorizedshaft, or something like that. Luckily, through good behavior, Inever found out about its vile activities firsthand. Sounds likeserious S&M to me... Seriously, I've got a motorized rod wrapper, but have neverfigured out how to use the darn thing. I wrap guides by hand,most of the time with the rod held in a set of wooden guidesshaped like upside down "V's". Springs maintain tension on thespool, not the thread. If you learn more about how to use one ofthe motorized gizmo's, I'd like to know Tim & Jilly Watson wrote: How many of you whip by hand and how many use a turning motorof some sort?If by machine what sort and how do you control thetension?ThanksTim. from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Sun Jun 6 18:02:15 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Two different rods Richard- The short answer is "YEP." The .078 tip is the "true" para tip, and would probable be considered awet fly tip. But once you get the timing down you should be able tocast a LOOOOOOOOONNNGGG way. The .070 tip will be faster and will casta tighter loop, but you might want to check out Wayne's hybred (TheForce) at .074. One thing I've noticed with parabolic tapers, they seem to cast muchbetter (for me) if you use Lefty's technique and don't break your wrist,make a reach behind you on the back cast, etc. My experience with para's is that I can't cast 'em for sh_t aftercasting something like a Payne taper, until I spend some timere-learning the timing. They store power for the cast right down to thereel seat, and it takes some practice to make 'em work just right. Butwhen it works, and the light comes on, the line shoots out of your handso fast you'll wet yourself. :^) Brian from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sun Jun 6 19:01:07 1999 Subject: RE: Two different rods Hi Brian, Yea, the tip I built is the .078 `true' para tip. Ijust can't seem to get the timing right on the para15. I either throw a moderately open loop if my strokeis too slow or a tailing loop if the stroke is toofast. I have a tough time hitting the sweet spot. Thisis the first time I cast a parabolic rod so I expectto eventually get the hang of it. The Granger, on the other hand, feels much more likethe graphite rods I've been fishing for 20 years andcasts itself. (In fact, it feels much better than thegraphite rods I've fished.) I haven't given up on the para. Too many people havegiven this taper rave revues. I do need to spend moretime with it, though, so that I may master its trickytiming. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Brian D. CreekSent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 7:03 PM Cc: RODMAKERSSubject: Re: Two different rods Richard- The short answer is "YEP." The .078 tip is the "true" para tip, andwould probable be considered awet fly tip. But once you get the timingdown you should be able tocast a LOOOOOOOOONNNGGG way. The .070 tipwill be faster and will casta tighter loop, but you might want to checkout Wayne's hybred (TheForce) at .074. One thing I've noticed with parabolictapers, they seem to cast muchbetter (for me) if you use Lefty'stechnique and don't break your wrist,make a reach behind you on the back cast, etc. My experience with para's is that I can'tcast 'em for sh_t aftercasting something like a Payne taper, untilI spend some timere-learning the timing. They store power reel seat, and it takes some practice tomake 'em work just right. Butwhen it works, and the light comes on, theline shoots out of your handso fast you'll wet yourself. :^) Brian from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Jun 6 22:52:05 1999 Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:51:12 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Whipping My headmaster didn't need a machine, my backside can attest to that!.I used to reckon his wife beat the mean little bugger at home and he'dtake it out on us/me.There were once about 20 of us all getting "6 of the best" and by the timehe got about half way down after dealing with me a couple of matesand I started giggling and carrying on which upset the b______ so he cameback and let us have it again which set off the other end of the line. Old Normy was only about 5' which made him shorter than most of us sowhen he started foaming at the mouth and screaming at the tallest of uswe all started snickering again. I don't know how many sets of 6 we allwound up with but it was worth watching the little axe murderer almostget an apolexy.Arhhh, the good old days. Tony Tim,Back when I was in elementary school, we listened with muchweeping and gnashing of teeth to tales of that special "whippingmachine" the mean old Schoolmaster had hidden away in a closetbehind his office. Belts with spikes attached to a motorizedshaft, or something like that. Luckily, through good behavior, Inever found out about its vile activities firsthand. Sounds likeserious S&M to me... /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Jun 7 00:14:15 1999 out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA12188 for; Mon,7 Jun 1999 05:14:11 GMT Subject: Peerless 5 wt 1. Quered about building this Phillipson rod earlier, on looking at theDesign Report from Frank Stetzer I note that from 40" to 45" taper deltais 0.041 & Stress goes from 112575 to 77083. Being new at this I wonderare these numbers reasonable ? i.e. part of the taper to produce a"windstick" as Reed Curry called it or is it possibly a misprint?2. Also I read someplace in the Archives (& of course can't find itagain) of a site that had some history on some of the builders such asPhillipson, Granger etc., does anyone have the URL for that site.ThanksCraigCraig from saltwein@swbell.net Mon Jun 7 06:22:23 1999 gw1.rcsntx.swbell.net GAA19443 Subject: Re: Two different rods Richard Nantel wrote: I built two rods this past winter: a 7 ft 4 wt Grangertaper and a Young Para 15 (heavy tip). .......snip Richard, I would be interested in seeing the taper for the 7 ft. 4wt. Granger,if you wouldn't mind sharing. Any information about it would beappreciated. TIA. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from destinycon@mindspring.com Mon Jun 7 06:58:28 1999 Subject: Re: Peerless 5 wt Craig,This might be what you're looking forRegardsGary H. http://www.bobwhite.com/bamboo/rod_makers.htm At 11:09 PM 6/6/99 -0600, Craig Naldrett wrote:2. Also I read someplace in the Archives (& of course can't find itagain) of a site that had some history on some of the builders such asPhillipson, Granger etc., does anyone have the URL for that site.ThanksCraig from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 7 07:06:28 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04518 for; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 07:07:10 -0500 Subject: Heat treating question I am getting ready to heat treat and have donesome checking of the temperatures on my oven.I drilled three equal distant holes on the top ofthe oven down the center line. The first hole isabout 9" from the rear, There is 21" between theholes.I made the oven the same inside dimensions as inWayne's book. The outside is a little larger due tothicker insulation. The oven is built very tight.I used the 54", 650 watt Mica strip from Hi-Watt.This is what I come up with. The center temp isapproximatly 35 degrees higher than the two endtemps. The center reads 375 degrees, the ends readabout 340 degrees. Thethermometer is a candy thermometer with a 3/16shaft that goes in to about 1" above the rat wire.It goes to 450 degrees.In checking a blond test strip the center portionis darker than the ends. The bamboo strip is 43" longandabout 9" on each end is lighter in color. It wasturnedturned end for end. Another sample that was notturned showed the same thing. We then put in twobound sections, a tip and butt section, and gotthe same results. It is noticeable in naturallight.Can anyone shed some light on this or does it makeany difference. I have several bound sections ready toheat treat and would like to get them going. Thanks in advance, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from cotner@novagate.com Mon Jun 7 08:14:59 1999 Subject: Test from dpeaston@wzrd.com Mon Jun 7 09:27:04 1999 Subject: Re: Two different rods At 06:24 AM 6/7/1999 -0700, Steve Trauthwein wrote: Richard, I would be interested in seeing the taper for the 7 ft. 4wt. Granger,if you wouldn't mind sharing. Any information about it would beappreciated. TIA. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO Steve, There are a number of granger tapers in "The lovely bamboo." There is a7.5' 3 piece in the book. If you are interested, I could send it to you.This 7' 2 pc taper is taken from a rod owned by Rick Hafele: W&M Granger Victory 3 0z. 7' 2pcDesign Report-- from Dimensions------------------------------------------------------------------------ Basic Rod Design Parameters:Rod Length: 7 ft 0 in (= 84 inches) Action Length: 6 ft 3 in (= 75 inches) Line Weight: 5 Pieces: 2 Line Fished: 45 ft Tip Factor: 2.081 Ferrule Type: Truncated Ferrule #1: Size 11/64; Wt 0.141 oz.; Rod Dim 11.42/64 @ 42 in ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inches Dimension Stress1 0.068 553375 0.078 18721310 0.092 23475615 0.108 22463320 0.121 22061225 0.134 21106730 0.142 22195935 0.154 21223340 0.164 21043745 0.200 13889450 0.219 12609455 0.235 12042660 0.246 12292065 0.258 12392970 0.269 12642575 0.324 83273------------------------------------------- -----------------------------BE AWARE That the tapers on thje 2 pc Grangers are different than the 3pcrods. They have relatively stiffer butt sections. Therfore they are NOTparabolic. Regards, Doug Easton from brewer@teleport.com Mon Jun 7 10:01:00 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0YV9in; Mon Jun 7 08:00:561999 0700 Subject: Bamboo durability test - not recommended All, I fished the lower McKenzie river yesterday with a friend. He fishes two bamboo rods, a 9" Granger Victory and a 7 1/2' Southbend two piece rod. After wading for a spell he attempted to get back into the driftboat by stepping over his rods, slipped, and (you guessed it) put his foot squarely on the Southbend . He bent the rod what seemed to have been 90 degrees.The rod was caught between the casting deck and the front seat. His wadingboot was at a point about 3" down from the ferrule (toward the butt) and his weight pushed the middle of the rod to the floor of the boat. The rod did not break, and suffered no apparent damage! I know had the rod been graphite it would have shattered. I have always assumed that bamboo was as durable as fiberglass and graphite with alittle care, but now I'm wondering if it is substantially more durable? Any thoughts or similar experiences? -Randy Brewer P.S. He caught two nice rainbows with the rod an hour later. from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Mon Jun 7 10:11:51 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id KAA09263 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id KAA11131 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 Subject: Re: Peerless 5 wt Craig, I assume that this jump in dimension at the ferrule indicates astepdown style ferrule. Maybe someone with more knowledge of Phillipson rods can tell us for sure. If you want to build the rod to specs you will have to spring fora stepdown ferrule. Or else change the taper in this sectionto something more gradual. Jack Howell's book talks about thisquestion.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Craig Naldrett wrote: 1. Quered about building this Phillipson rod earlier, on looking at theDesign Report from Frank Stetzer I note that from 40" to 45" taper deltais 0.041 & Stress goes from 112575 to 77083. Being new at this Iwonderare these numbers reasonable ? i.e. part of the taper to produce a"windstick" as Reed Curry called it or is it possibly a misprint?2. Also I read someplace in the Archives (& of course can't find itagain) of a site that had some history on some of the builders such asPhillipson, Granger etc., does anyone have the URL for that site.ThanksCraigCraig from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jun 7 10:34:19 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad In a message dated 6/5/99 5:58:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, HARMS1@prodigy.net writes: Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth of thepower fibers. My point exactly! My other contention is that with good power fibers allthe way through the much vaunted "outer power fibers" are overrated. Theymay make a difference, but the difference is small. Darryl from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jun 7 10:37:49 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Poor Man's Quad You and I must be seeing different things then... Darryl I am looking at the color photo you mention in Morgan's brochure even asItype this. And I have to say, Darryl, that you are mistaken about the powerfibers extending "all the way through," even on this excellent example ofexcellent cane. The cane shows very tightly bundled fibers with aminimumamount of pith separating the fibers, but not all the fibers you see are"power fibers." Moreover, the amount of separating pith increases asone's eye proceeds toward the center of the section (as, in all cane, itwill always do). IT IS NOT ALL THE SAME throughout, and not allnice-looking fibers are what we call "power fiber." Darryl, thismatters! from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jun 7 10:50:49 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad - tuning About a year ago, we had a discussion on the concept of "tuning" a rodafterassembly, by sanding where appropriate. It didn't seem at the time like anyonewas going to do it. Sorry about not mentioning it, but your post on tuning a rod is what got mestarted on planing and/or sanding the "outer power fibers" in the firstplace. Darryl from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jun 7 13:34:56 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Randy,They made a lot of good things here in So. Bend ( Studebakers, Hummers, Avantis, So. Bend Lathes) and those rods were no exception. To all on the list let this be a lesson never I repeat never climb into a driftboat on the same side the rods a laying on. A side note i fished the Muskegon for four days coming home yesterday and i had an incredible time of it. I tookthree bamboo rods ( a Leonard, a Ron Barch and a Bernard Hills). Now I never really had a chance to put this Ron Barch rod to the test and I have to tell you and him that this is one sweet rod, 8' for a 5-6 wght. No matter how much the wind blew or how difficult the lie of the fish this rod layed out the most beautiful and accurate casts of any rod I have, when I needed the distance it gave me that too. There are times when you have to cast 60+feet to these selective trout and she put em out as easy as a 30' cast. Oh yeh the best fish of the 4 days was a 18" brown on a cinnamin caddis emergerand I had one on yesterday morning that shattered a 6x leader tippet ( Orvis super strong 3.5# strength). anyone ever want to fish the Muskegon let me know and I will give you the $.25 tour.Bret from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Mon Jun 7 15:48:36 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTPLevel 310) via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:46:34 EDT Subject: Re: Heat treating question Tony, I found the same problem (i.e., initially my test strips were darkerin the middle than at either end). Incidentally, I have a WC type ovenwith mica strip and 2 inches of insulation on all sides(rather than 1").To solve the problem in my environment, I added a vent hole in the back ofthe oven to get better circulation and a more even temp. I also moved thethermostat temp sensor to the middle of the oven where it is likely to behottest. This way I can avoid temps over 370. With my thermometertempsover 375 produce brittle cane (i.e., a wee bit overdone). Finally, I canstill find some minor variations in color from mid to end of treatedsection, but once the strips are planed it is no longer visable. I'm appending to this note some additional comments I sent to a fellowlastmonth, which some may find helpful. --Bob. I tried dozens of oven trials in order to become accustomed to just how itheated and so on. I just left it on for a day and tried differentcombinations of material and times and so on. I think it pays to spendthe time doing so. You'll probably find lots of querks. For instance, ifI set the thermostat to 350 and preheat, then introduce two blanks, thetemp immediately drops. Then too with my thermostat and thermometerthetemp when set to 350, actually ranges from about 340 (when it cycles on)to370 (when it cycles off). So in this kind of environment it doesn't meanmuch to say bake at 350 for 15". Through my trials I learnt to preheat to370, introduce the blank, time just when I manually turn on or off thetherostat, and never let the oven get over 370 during the bake. You'll nodoubt have somewhat different experience, but the core problems to solvewill probably be similar. I have a small vent hole in the top, back of the oven, and another hole inthe top front (same size) into which is inserted a stem thermo ( from MCIsp??, mail order). I think the thermo. was under $10. You will likelywant to monitor the internal temp from the outside, and without openingthedoor, hence the stem type (it's like a meat thermometer.). I relie on thethermometer to tell me what the front- end temp is, and I adjust thethemostat based on this information, and my notes from the trials. At 07:07 AM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote: I am getting ready to heat treat and have donesome checking of the temperatures on my oven.I drilled three equal distant holes on the top ofthe oven down the center line. The first hole isabout 9" from the rear, There is 21" between theholes.I made the oven the same inside dimensions as inWayne's book. The outside is a little larger due tothicker insulation. The oven is built very tight.I used the 54", 650 watt Mica strip from Hi-Watt.This is what I come up with. The center temp isapproximatly 35 degrees higher than the two endtemps. The center reads 375 degrees, the ends readabout 340 degrees. Thethermometer is a candy thermometer with a 3/16shaft that goes in to about 1" above the rat wire.It goes to 450 degrees.In checking a blond test strip the center portionis darker than the ends. The bamboo strip is 43" longandabout 9" on each end is lighter in color. It wasturnedturned end for end. Another sample that was notturned showed the same thing. We then put in twobound sections, a tip and butt section, and gotthe same results. It is noticeable in naturallight.Can anyone shed some light on this or does it makeany difference. I have several bound sections ready toheat treat and would like to get them going. Thanks in advance, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jun 7 16:55:20 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0332ADA00F8; Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:57:07 EDT Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Randy,The (unintentional) abuse some of my rods have seen would amaze you.Thewoods are thick around here, leaping from rock to rock is sometimesunsuccessful, etc. Just the scratched varnish would have demolished agraphiterod, but the cane takes it in stride. Read the Joe Brooks advice for wadingsafely - "Slap your rod down into the water to restore your balance." -thatwas a cane rod, Bubba.Another cane myth debunked.Best regards,ReedBTW - Does anyone have anything to remove (my) toothmarks from a corkgrip? Randy Brewer wrote: I know had the rod been graphite it would have shattered. I have alwaysassumed that bamboo was as durable as fiberglass and graphite with alittlecare, but now I'm wondering if it is substantially more durable? Anythoughts or similar experiences? -Randy Brewer P.S. He caught two nice rainbows with the rod an hour later. from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jun 7 16:57:27 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A0B317A400F0; Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:59:15 EDT Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad - tuning Darryl,I've heard from other adventurous souls that adopted the "tuning"practice. Sofar, no one has reported any but positive results.Best regards,Reed SalarFly@aol.com wrote: About a year ago, we had a discussion on the concept of "tuning" a rodafterassembly, by sanding where appropriate. It didn't seem at the time likeanyonewas going to do it. Sorry about not mentioning it, but your post on tuning a rod is what gotmestarted on planing and/or sanding the "outer power fibers" in the firstplace. Darryl from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Jun 7 17:56:52 1999 natco.southshore.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27064; Mon, 7 Jun1999 17:57:31-0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Heat treating question Robert,Thanks for the reply. I will reply through the list also. I might get moreinfo. I am trying a few more tests, I have reset the thermostat back to375 forthe center. I am looking for two other matching thermometers so I cantake thereadings in all three places at one time. I also found that inserting thebundles would drop the temp over 50 degrees and did not know when tostart thetiming. I have watched Wayne heat treat and it seemed he started timingas soonas he closed the door. For me, this will not give the correct time for heattreating at 375 degrees. It takes a few minuets for the temp to get backup to375. All the heat treating I have seen done is on flamed culms so thisdifference in color would not show up. I found that to get a strip to thecolorof a sample of heat treated blond bamboo that was given to me, I had tousetwice the 7 minuets that is recommended at 375. Should I wait till thetempcomes back to 375 after inserting the bundles to start timing. I have castrodsthat Wayne has made and they are great, so the heat treating he does hasto beok.I am going to try to get a small fan that will take the heat and see aboutcirculating the air.I am open to any other suggestions or ideas. Am I making too big a thing ofthis.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Robert Milardo wrote: Tony, I found the same problem (i.e., initially my test strips were darkerin the middle than at either end). Incidentally, I have a WC type ovenwith mica strip and 2 inches of insulation on all sides(rather than 1").To solve the problem in my environment, I added a vent hole in the backofthe oven to get better circulation and a more even temp. I also movedthethermostat temp sensor to the middle of the oven where it is likely to behottest. This way I can avoid temps over 370. With my thermometertempsover 375 produce brittle cane (i.e., a wee bit overdone). Finally, I canstill find some minor variations in color from mid to end of treatedsection, but once the strips are planed it is no longer visable. I'm appending to this note some additional comments I sent to a fellowlastmonth, which some may find helpful. --Bob. I tried dozens of oven trials in order to become accustomed to just howitheated and so on. I just left it on for a day and tried differentcombinations of material and times and so on. I think it pays to spendthe time doing so. You'll probably find lots of querks. For instance, ifI set the thermostat to 350 and preheat, then introduce two blanks, thetemp immediately drops. Then too with my thermostat and thermometerthetemp when set to 350, actually ranges from about 340 (when it cycleson) to370 (when it cycles off). So in this kind of environment it doesn't meanmuch to say bake at 350 for 15". Through my trials I learnt to preheat to370, introduce the blank, time just when I manually turn on or off thetherostat, and never let the oven get over 370 during the bake. You'll nodoubt have somewhat different experience, but the core problems tosolvewill probably be similar. I have a small vent hole in the top, back of the oven, and another hole inthe top front (same size) into which is inserted a stem thermo ( from MCIsp??, mail order). I think the thermo. was under $10. You will likelywant to monitor the internal temp from the outside, and without openingthedoor, hence the stem type (it's like a meat thermometer.). I relie on thethermometer to tell me what the front- end temp is, and I adjust thethemostat based on this information, and my notes from the trials. At 07:07 AM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote: I am getting ready to heat treat and have donesome checking of the temperatures on my oven.I drilled three equal distant holes on the top ofthe oven down the center line. The first hole isabout 9" from the rear, There is 21" between theholes.I made the oven the same inside dimensions as inWayne's book. The outside is a little larger due tothicker insulation. The oven is built very tight.I used the 54", 650 watt Mica strip from Hi-Watt.This is what I come up with. The center temp isapproximatly 35 degrees higher than the two endtemps. The center reads 375 degrees, the ends readabout 340 degrees. Thethermometer is a candy thermometer with a 3/16shaft that goes in to about 1" above the rat wire.It goes to 450 degrees.In checking a blond test strip the center portionis darker than the ends. The bamboo strip is 43" longandabout 9" on each end is lighter in color. It wasturnedturned end for end. Another sample that was notturned showed the same thing. We then put in twobound sections, a tip and butt section, and gotthe same results. It is noticeable in naturallight.Can anyone shed some light on this or does it makeany difference. I have several bound sections ready toheat treat and would like to get them going. Thanks in advance, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill HallUniv. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from rclarke@eou.edu Mon Jun 7 18:38:58 1999 -0700 Subject: Southbend I just received a Southbend 46 with the understanding that it is adoublebuilt. Anyonehave an idea if this model was? Thanks, Robert Clarkerclarke@eou.edu from anglport@con2.com Mon Jun 7 18:46:13 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended BTW - Does anyone have anything to remove (my) toothmarks from a corkgrip? Anger..., or frustration?;-)I hope you weren't carrying it in your mouth and fell on your chin!Art from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Jun 7 19:45:27 1999 Mon, 7 Jun 1999 20:45:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01BEB126.9FCC6A00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BEB126.9FCC6A00 But, Darryl, no culm of cane produces power fibers all the way through. =Only the outermost .035 -.040 can properly be called "power fibers," =and this is because only these are extremely thin. extremely hard, and =extremely tightly packed with an absolute minimum of pith separating =them. The rest of the fibers increase rapidly in size, by comparison, =and are separated increasingly by more and more pith. Not all fibers =are power fibers, and equal strength is simply not available all the way =through the full depth of fibrous material. You seem to be missing the point almost with a vengeance. Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad HARMS1@prodigy.net writes: Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality and = the My point exactly! My other contention is that with good power fibers =allthe way through the much vaunted "outer power fibers" are overrated. =Theymay make a difference, but the difference is small. Darryl ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BEB126.9FCC6A00 But, Darryl, no culm of cane produces= only these are extremely thin. extremely hard, and = of the fibers increase rapidly in size, by comparison, and are separated = equal strength is simply not available all the way through the full = fibrous material. You seem to be missing the point = vengeance. Bill -----Original Message-----From: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu=<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= most important considerations in this regard is the quality and depth of = exactly! My other contention is that with good power fibers = through the much vaunted "outer power fibers" are ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BEB126.9FCC6A00-- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Mon Jun 7 20:48:44 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Two different rods Richard, I think wet fly tapers are supposed to cast an open loop because youare fishing 2 or three flies on droppers (didn't they call that a"drift" or something).Open loops keep all those flies from getting tangled up together. Brian from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jun 7 20:52:25 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id A782E95005C; Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:53:06 EDT Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Close, I was climbing along a ledge by a pool and needed both hands.Unfortunately, I started to slip (but recovered) and bit down hard. Youcouldmake casts of both jaws from the marks in my cork grip.Best regards,Reed Art Port wrote: BTW - Does anyone have anything to remove (my) toothmarks from acork grip? Anger..., or frustration?;-)I hope you weren't carrying it in your mouth and fell on your chin!Art from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jun 7 20:56:27 1999 Subject: RE: Two different rods Hi Brian, I've pretty much always equated a tight loop with longcasts. Open loops tend to 'run out of steam.' And yetthe para 15, with a wet fly tip, is reported to castsvery long lines (I think it's Schwiebert who mentions80-90 ft casts.) That seems unlikely if the rod castsan open loop. Richard -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 9:49 PM Cc: RODMAKERSSubject: Re: Two different rods Richard, I think wet fly tapers are supposed tocast an open loop because youare fishing 2 or three flies on droppers(didn't they call that a"drift" or something).Open loops keep all those flies fromgetting tangled up together. Brian from bdcreek@crosswinds.net Mon Jun 7 20:58:45 1999 (envelope- from bdcreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Southbend Check out Classic Angler's web page in the section on rod values. Brian from anglport@con2.com Mon Jun 7 21:16:42 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Yo, guys, you're replying to the wrong fellow. Reed said he had tooth marksin his cork. I was trying to be funny with my response. I hope he gets thesuggestions from this message (if he was serious).Anyway, thanks for the info. Maybe someday I'll gnaw on one of myown in afit of pique!*g*Art At 08:03 PM 6/7/99 EDT, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:try steaming the grip. i have taken dents out this way. sometimes takesa couple tries but be gentle with the steam.bret Subject: RE: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Want the number of my dentist? ;) from LECLAIR123@aol.com Mon Jun 7 21:40:01 1999 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Reed,This may work or it may not. I have removed a lot ofdents in gun stocks by using steam to raise them back up. The steam swells the wood and brings it back up to were it was. I'm not sure if this will work on cork or not. I've neverbit one of my grips. If you want to try it, use a wet wash cloth and lay iton the grip were it is indented. Place your wife's iron ontop of the wash cloth for a few moments. The check it.Like I said, this may work, or maybe not. Dave L. from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Mon Jun 7 22:00:09 1999 (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA245574 for; Tue, 8 Jun 199903:00:03 GMT Subject: Penacolite Glue Reading some stuff on Bill Phillipson at Classic Angler site, refers tousing Penacolite glue, anybody know anything about this, stillavailable?, I know it's purple but that's about all that was said in thenote. from jaquin@netsync.net Mon Jun 7 22:04:08 1999 0400 Subject: PETERS ROD Looking for information on a rod marked Peters Buffaloian, 9 ft 3/2 51/4 oz the rod appears to be well made perhaps by a custom maker wrapare beautifully done in brown silk with black tipping. unfortunatelythe rod has suffered alot of varnish melt from being in a attic. anyway of stripping this rod and saving the original windings. rodappears to be dipped after winding the guides. any opinions on value of the rod? tia jerry from tim_klein@email.msn.com Mon Jun 7 22:14:21 1999 SMTPSVC;Mon, 7 Jun 1999 20:13:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Happy99.exe Name: Happy99.exeType: unspecified type (application/octet- stream)Encoding: x-uuencode from tim_klein@email.msn.com Mon Jun 7 22:14:23 1999 SMTPSVC;Mon, 7 Jun 1999 20:13:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended I've never tried an iron, but I have had some success with a a whistling teakettle. The whistling is annoying as can be (wait 'till the family's out ofthe house), but it gives a nice concentrated source of steam. I usually doit in short bursts because I don't want to get the glue between the corktoohot. It works much better on wood than it does on cork, but you can usually getsmall dents to pop back a little. I guess Reed's success will depend on how bad his overbite is... Tim--- -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Reed,This may work or it may not. I have removed a lot ofdents in gun stocks by using steam to raise them back up.The steam swells the wood and brings it back up to were itwas. I'm not sure if this will work on cork or not. I've neverbit one of my grips.If you want to try it, use a wet wash cloth and lay iton the grip were it is indented. Place your wife's iron ontop of the wash cloth for a few moments. The check it.Like I said, this may work, or maybe not. Dave L. from lblan@provide.net Mon Jun 7 22:36:42 1999 Subject: Virus Warning... post was Re: Bamboo Durability Test..... boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB13E.CB891540" 000000006B3066648604BE11B279D297178FC16064D82400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB13E.CB891540 Tim; this attachment that you are sending is the happy99.exe virus that somuch noise has been made about. -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 11:14 PM Subject: Re: Bamboo durability test - not recommended Attachment file : Happy99.exeVirus name : W32/SKANEWAction taken : Infected... ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB13E.CB891540 name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB13E.CB891540-- from SalarFly@aol.com Mon Jun 7 23:01:30 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad You seem to be missing the point almost with a vengeance. Okay, if you say so. Darryl from tim_klein@email.msn.com Mon Jun 7 23:42:15 1999 SMTPSVC;Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:41:44 -0700 Subject: Urgent! - VIRUS WARNING I deeply apologize for my earlier message that contained the Happy99worm.Though my post was only sent to the rodmaker's list, it appears that theworm may have generated messages to individuals in my address book.(What isit they say..."with friends like you...") I believe I have the problem resolved, but this will be my last messageuntil I am absolutely certain. Happy99 is a worm program, not a virus. It is apparently non- destructive,though I assure you it is annoying as hell! If you inadvertently ran the attachment, you can get instructions forremoving it at the following address: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html Again, I apologize for any inconvenience I have caused. Tim--- from gaff@carol.net Tue Jun 8 05:38:37 1999 Subject: warning !!!!!!!!!!!!! hey guys,i received a ol' 'happy 99.exe' attachment with tim klien's 23:13mon post.wil from mrmac@tcimet.net Tue Jun 8 06:06:40 1999 Subject: Stress and breakage I'm looking for a little guidance on stress curves and theirinterpretation, please. I thought I was understanding the stress curvesand their implications, but having just had a rod break during testcasting, now I'm not so sure! I recently bought a Pezon et Michel 7'2" LeMarvel from a friend. I wastesting casting it with a 5/6 Wulff line and *really* enjoying the rodand its power when suddenly, the tip section is hanging loose. It hadsnapped off pretty cleanly right at the top of the male ferrule.(ARRRGH!) The rod has a second tip, but now I am very concerned aboutthe durability of the cane under heavy loading during long casts, or ifI should inadvertently actually happen to catch a large fish of somesort. ;-) (hey, you never know - these things do happen to somepeople) So, I measured it out expecting to see a stress rise where it broke, butin fact, after getting the graph of rod stress, the rod broke at the*lowest* point in the main body of the stress curve. So, now I'm a bitbefuddled about how to interpret the curves, or the incident. Could itbe that the cane was previously damaged? The rod had hardly beenfished, if at all, so I don't think rot or anything like that was anissue. Or, like willows and oaks, high stresses are where bendingoccurs, and breaks happen when things don't bend - maybe? I'm obviouslywalking on eggshells when I take the other tip out now and wouldappreciate a little help interpreting what happened, and what might ormight not happen with the other tip. The taper, for those who may be interested (and it really does thrownicely!):0 685 8710 10415 11920 13625 15030 17235 18940 20445 209 50.25 21855 23360 24965 25770 27075 29777 298 Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide. mac from anglport@con2.com Tue Jun 8 06:29:44 1999 Subject: RE: Two different rods All,This is logic (as opposed to theory OR personal experience with themedium-- wet flies). Isn't the idea of the fast, tight loop to dry the dry- fly?Don't we USUALLY cast shorter and "fish out the cast" more with wetflies?It seems to me that the wet tip SHOULD give up distance so as to keep theflies wet and the dry tip keep a tight loop to flick the fly and get it outwhere it probably will have only a few feet of usable float.Refutations, comments?Art At 09:55 PM 6/7/99 -0400, Richard Nantel wrote:Hi Brian, I've pretty much always equated a tight loop with longcasts. Open loops tend to 'run out of steam.' ....... That seems unlikelyif the rod castsan open loop. Richard from anglport@con2.com Tue Jun 8 07:02:21 1999 Subject: Another pain in the nether region "PrettyPark hits Windows users hard Victims of e-mail virus increase 2,000 percent overthe weekend, Symantec reports." I just saw this on the ZDNet page. It comes as a worm/trojan horse. It's anattachment to e-mail and calls itself "Prettypark.EXE". They say the smalluser is most likely to be affected since we don't update our anti- virusesas often as the big boys.After the new Happy99 flurry, I thought you'd like to know it's out there.Art from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Jun 8 07:20:54 1999 Subject: Re: RE: Two different rods richard.nantel@videotron.ca, bdcreek@crosswinds.net In a message dated 6/8/99 11:33:43 AM, anglport@con2.com wrote: Art - I think you would find that those of us who are wet fly freaks, as opposed to nymphers, often fish a longer line. For example, a wet fly is an efficient way to fish a big riffle. If the water is big enough, you might be fishing 50-60 feet of line. I think there is a terminology problem when you start talking about a rod like the Para 15 with a wet fly tip. The wet fly tip is heavier, and does produce a slower, but more powerful action. The action is nothing at all like the wet fly rods of old, however. It might have been more useful to call them streamer tips, which is a bit moredescriptive, in my opinion. What you get is a nice combination rod. You can fish a big streamer, or a couple wet flys with ease in the morning, then switch tipsand have a faster, more delicate action for the afternoon dry fly fishing. from Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us Tue Jun 8 08:35:23 1999 199913:33:18 UT 16-1998)) id8625678A.004A61DA ; Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:32:27 -0500 Subject: Tight Loops, was Two different rods Tight loops are more aerodynamic - less "frontal area" of line presented tothewind (in the forward direction only). Thus, they would generally equate tolonger casts, or at least the potential. Conversely, an open loop would tendtokeep wet fly and nymph rigs less tangled, whether mutliple flies in adroppersituation or just split shot, strike indicator (quit scratching those hives!),etc. Whatever other use the fisher makes of the loop - speed to dry a dry fly,etc. -is part of fishing technique and personal expertise. Best regards,-Ed Estlow Art Port on 06/08/99 06:29:59 AM Please respond to anglport@con2.com cc: "RODMAKERS" Subject: RE: Two different rods All,This is logic (as opposed to theory OR personal experience with themedium-- wet flies). Isn't the idea of the fast, tight loop to dry the dry- fly?Don't we USUALLY cast shorter and "fish out the cast" more with wetflies?It seems to me that the wet tip SHOULD give up distance so as to keep theflies wet and the dry tip keep a tight loop to flick the fly and get it outwhere it probably will have only a few feet of usable float.Refutations, comments?Art At 09:55 PM 6/7/99 -0400, Richard Nantel wrote:Hi Brian, I've pretty much always equated a tight loop with longcasts. Open loops tend to 'run out of steam.' ....... That seems unlikelyif the rod castsan open loop. Richard from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Tue Jun 8 15:02:00 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA14439 for ;Wed, 9 Jun 199908:01:53 +1200 Subject: Re: Tight Loops, was Two different rods This discussion has been of particular interest to me . I finished off arod based on Waynes 7'6", weight 4/5, on the weekend and cast it for thefirst time . Firstly I should say I am not a great , even good caster, butgenerally get the fly in the vacinity of where I want it . This rod cast a tight loop , and was very pleasent to cast with a weightforward #5 line. BUT in about 1 cast in 2 , the loop tangled as the line "unrolled" with theforward cast . This is not a problem I usually have . ( I have lots of others) Are there any views on why . Could it be some basically casting error, orsomething to do with the rod such that I need to alter my castingtechnique. Ian Kearney At 08:32 AM 8/06/99 -0500, Ed.Estlow@co.hennepin.mn.us wrote: Tight loops are more aerodynamic - less "frontal area" of line presentedto thewind (in the forward direction only). Thus, they would generally equate tolonger casts, or at least the potential. Conversely, an open loop wouldtend tokeep wet fly and nymph rigs less tangled, whether mutliple flies in adroppersituation or just split shot, strike indicator (quit scratching thosehives!),etc. from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Tue Jun 8 15:02:02 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id IAA14446 for ;Wed, 9 Jun 199908:01:55 +1200 Subject: The Great Southern The Southern Rodmakers Gathering "organisers' ( using that word ratherloosely) have recently made a number of important decisions. These decisions are : 1. The name of the gathering is " The Great Southern" 2. The associated sports to The Great Southern are to be cricket and rugby.Tony is the official coach and umpire of the cricket activities. He canshowparticipants how to bowl underarm which will be easier for all. The roleofrugby cannot be confirmed untill much closer to the event. The World CupforRugby is on about the same time as The Great Southern . Visitors ,particually from the USA , should note that if NZ is doing well in the WorldCup it is important that they know a great deal about rugby or else theywill have difficulty coversing with any one they should meet at say petrolstations , shops or where ever. If NZ is doing badly , or horrors , isknocked out early , then all they need to know is a little about theparentage of the referees, Coach and head selector. Should Australia , New Zealand , or the USA be in the finals of the WorldCup , then the appropriate " book" will be run. 3. The official beer for The Great Southern has been chosen. The beer is"Macs" which is a small brewery located in Nelson which consistantlywinsmost of the Australian and New Zealand brewing contests. Macs makestheirbeers using the ineffecient old methods with hops instead of chemicals ,proper brewing with barley , and basically prefers to make beer the way itwas made 100 years ago and ignore most modern technology . This somehow seemed to be the most appropriate brew for rodmakers tosupport . Ian Kearney from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Tue Jun 8 15:37:37 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTPLevel 310) via TCP with SMTP ; Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:35:33 EDT Subject: Re: Heat treating question Tony, Well no not too big a thing. I too aim for the kind of resultsWayne gets, and many others. A nice color but not too dark, and certainlynot one that would over cook the cane. Incidentally, I tried over cookingjust to see where that would happen in my environment. Test strips thatare over cooked break cleanly, very differently than properly temperedcane. To avoid over cooking, I never let the oven go over 370, with oneexception and that's explained below. You have to find you own solutions for your environment, the combinationofyour oven, thermostat and thermometer, plus some other things. For thisreason I tried lots of trials with scrape cane and it sounds like you aredoing so too. First I ignore the temp. as noted on my theromostat and instead payattention to my thermometer. (Alternatively I could calibrate mythermostat but just didn't find the need too.) The thermometer is in thefront of the oven about 12" from the door and inserted into the top of theoven through a small hole. It's a stem thermometer (like a meat therm.) To begin I preheat the oven for at least an hour to even out all parts ofthe oven. I also preheat the section(s) to be heat treated in a hot box(with a light bulb in it) to about 75-80 degrees. This way I eliminate oneadditional source of error and the kind of massive drop in temp you can getwithout doing so if the section is fairly cold. That's an issue here inMaine winters when parts of my house are cool and my shop is about 60.With the pretreatment in the hot box, the sections are always at the sametemp when going into an oven. Then I overheat the oven because when I put a bound section in I know thetemp will drop, as you discovered, and I suppose everyone else who haseverdone this. from my trials I also know how much the temp will drop sothat's how much I over heat it. (On my thermometer I overheat to 375 andthen introduce the section. I'm aiming for an average temp of 364 degreesover the 15 min baking cycle.) I start timing at the moment I put thesection into the oven. This works because the drop in temp has beenplanned for. Also from my trials, I know that at 4 min. I will need toturn off the thermostat, and 7:30 min. I turn the section end-for-end, at 8min. I'll need to turn on the thermostat. At 15 min. I'm done. During thebake I monitor the temp minute by minute and having done lots of trials Iknow what the cycle of temp readings should look like for each one minuteinterval. Manually turning on and off the thermostat has the effect ofminimizing the temperature spead that the oven would normally gothrough ifleft to cycle on it's own. So when it's beginning to get too hot, I turnit off, and too cool, turn it on. This way I can reduce the spread of thethermostat's normal cycle by about 10 degrees or so for a more controledbake. I guess I could buy a better thermostat and more stuff, but this systemdoes produce reliable and reasonably controlable results. It's just amatter of knowing your particular system. And BTW I have nevercalabratedmy thermometer so I don't know how accurate it is. Come to think of it, Iought to do that some time. Consequently my temperatures might be alittlehigher or lower than your optimum temps. This is important and why mytemps may seem different than others. There is a nice article in a recent issue of TPF on baking and it'sconsequences. Hope this helps. Bob. At 05:58 PM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote:Robert,Thanks for the reply. I will reply through the list also. I might get moreinfo. I am trying a few more tests, I have reset the thermostat back to375 forthe center. I am looking for two other matching thermometers so I cantakethereadings in all three places at one time. I also found that inserting thebundles would drop the temp over 50 degrees and did not know when tostartthetiming. I have watched Wayne heat treat and it seemed he started timingassoonas he closed the door. For me, this will not give the correct time for heattreating at 375 degrees. It takes a few minuets for the temp to get backup to375. All the heat treating I have seen done is on flamed culms so thisdifference in color would not show up. I found that to get a strip to thecolorof a sample of heat treated blond bamboo that was given to me, I had tousetwice the 7 minuets that is recommended at 375. Should I wait till thetempcomes back to 375 after inserting the bundles to start timing. I have castrodsthat Wayne has made and they are great, so the heat treating he does hasto beok.I am going to try to get a small fan that will take the heat and see aboutcirculating the air.I am open to any other suggestions or ideas. Am I making too big a thingofthis.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Jun 8 15:54:35 1999 Subject: Re: Tight Loops, was Two different rods rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Ian - It sounds like a tailing loop problem. If you are used to larger rods, or faster tapers, you may be applying too much wrist power, or applying it too soon. Try working with a short line, and concentrate on using just the tip of the rod to cast the line. Use as little wrist power as you can, and observe the loop. It should be smooth and tight. Gradually increase the line length and wrist power, but still use no more power than you need to makethe cast. Also concentrate on making an accelerating wrist motion, instead of applying all your power at the beginning of the stroke. You should be ableto eliminate the problem, and if you do, it will improve your casting in general. from fiveside@net-gate.com Tue Jun 8 15:58:15 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06913; Tue, 8 Jun 199916:54:33 -0400 Subject: Ferrules and Other Jewelry Hi George,As a leading proponent of one-piece rods (to the extent of buying hugevans for that and other reasons) I could not agree with you more. You saidit just right - no ferrule - thinner butt for the same or better performance- and the other bonuses of no dead spot etc.My question though in dealing with your other things, varnish thicknessand guide weight, is in the matter of degree. While the .25 ounce ferrulemakes a formidable moment, things like varnish thickness and snakeguideweights contribute a whole lot less, particularly since they arepretty muchmandatory and distributed over the length. While I have no real data, mystrong feeling after running a lot of tapers and stress curves is thatplaying games with those items will result in nearly negligible gains. I'lltake it as a challenge to do some quantitative runs to maybe give a fewanswers, but not til after the fishing season.Is that why George Barnes uses light weight snake guides for strippersonsome of his rods? Smart fella.Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jun 8 16:29:42 1999 Subject: Re: Poor Man's Quad boundary="------------A667432D151023525697BBA0" --------------A667432D151023525697BBA0 Bill,I must agree with you here. I had some colour photomicrographs taken ofan end section of cane in our lab at work and they clearly show that itis only the outside of the cane that contain solid bundles of powerfibers that butt up against each other. They show up as small platesthat on the outside of the culm are packed side by side. As you godeeper the plates become larger with spaces in between that also becomeslarger.I can remember reading Knights book where he remarks that Tonkin cane isso dense that the outside cane be sanded down to adjust tapers withoutloss of strength. Remember that Knight was not a rodmaker, just writer,and could have been given wrong information.Taking more than the wax and the radius off makes a rod look verygrainy and I am sure that it is more prone to moisture absorption. Takea look at an Orvis cane rod, I am sure they got well down into the pithso it would soak up the phenolics faster.TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: But, Darryl, no culm of cane produces power fibers all the waythrough. Only the outermost .035 -.040 can properly be called "powerfibers," and this is because only these are extremely thin. extremelyhard, and extremely tightly packed with an absolute minimum of pithseparating them. The rest of the fibers increase rapidly in size, bycomparison, and are separated increasingly by more and more pith. Notall fibers are power fibers, and equal strength is simply notavailable all the way through the full depth of fibrous material. Youseem to be missing the point almost with avengeance. Bill -----Original Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:44 AMSubject: Re: Poor Man's QuadIn a message dated 6/5/99 5:58:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,HARMS1@prodigy.net writes: Good cane matters, and one of themost important considerations in this regard is the quality anddepth ofthepower fibers. My point exactly! My other contention is that with good power fibersallthe way through the much vaunted "outer power fibers" are overrated.Theymay make a difference, but the difference is small. Darryl --------------A667432D151023525697BBA0 Bill,I must agree with you here. I had some colour photomicrographs taken that it is only the outside of the cane that contain solid bundles of powerfibers that butt up against each other. They show up as small plates thaton the outside of the culm are packed side by side. As you go deeper theplates become larger with spaces in between that also becomes larger.I can remember reading Knights book where he remarks that Tonkincaneis so dense that the outside cane be sanded down to adjust tapers withoutloss of strength. Remember that Knight was not a rodmaker, just writer,and could have been given wrong information. well down into the pith so it would soak up the phenolics faster.TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: and this is because only these are extremely thin. extremelyhard, and extremely tightly packed with an absolute minimum of pithseparating are power fibers, and equal strength is simply not available all the way Message-----From: SalarFly@aol.com<SalarFly@aol.com> <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:44AMSubject: Re: Poor Man'sQuad HARMS1@prodigy.netwrites: Good cane matters, and one of the and depth ofthe My point exactly! My other contention is that with good power fibersallthe way through the much vaunted "outer power fibers" are overrated.Theymay make a difference, but the difference is small. Darryl --------------A667432D151023525697BBA0-- from chris@artistree.com Tue Jun 8 16:56:17 1999 Subject: Re: Tight Loops, was Two different rods Some very good advice! I would only add (if I may) that when you do start to get those nicelyformed loops you might want to try tilting the rod a few degreesperpendicular to your casting. This will help you to see the fly (andyour loop) a bit better as well as protect your rod tip from gettingdinged with the fly.-- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:Ian - It sounds like a tailing loop problem. If you are used to larger rods,or faster tapers, you may be applying too much wrist power, or applyingittoo soon. Try working with a short line, and concentrate on using justthetip of the rod to cast the line. Use as little wrist power as you can, andobserve the loop. It should be smooth and tight. Gradually increase thelinelength and wrist power, but still use no more power than you need tomake thecast. Also concentrate on making an accelerating wrist motion, insteadofapplying all your power at the beginning of the stroke. You should be abletoeliminate the problem, and if you do, it will improve your casting ingeneral. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Wed Jun 9 07:21:40 1999 don") bysmtp2.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Wed, 9 Jun 199906:21:18 - 0600 Subject: Re: Tight Loops, was Two different rods rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Ian, About once per year I get into a tailing loop mode and I fish a lot - itnormally happens if I'm tired. Pondering nature under a tree with my vestas a pillow most times irons out the problem.Why it happens, I have no idea. I usually can't even figure out what I'mdoing wrong but rest usually helps. Don At 04:53 PM 6/8/99 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:forward cast . This is not a problem I usually have . ( I have lots of others)>>> Ian - It sounds like a tailing loop problem. If you are used to larger rods, or faster tapers, you may be applying too much wrist power, or applyingit too soon. Try working with a short line, and concentrate on using just the tip of the rod to cast the line. Use as little wrist power as you can, and observe the loop. It should be smooth and tight. Gradually increase theline length and wrist power, but still use no more power than you need tomakethe cast. Also concentrate on making an accelerating wrist motion, insteadof applying all your power at the beginning of the stroke. You should be ableto eliminate the problem, and if you do, it will improve your casting in general. from saweiss@flash.net Wed Jun 9 07:51:27 1999 Subject: Munro Rods boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEB244.84930360" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEB244.84930360 Does anyone have an updated e-mail address for Jon Lintvet?The Munro Rod site looks like it's offline and e-mail won't go through.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEB244.84930360 Does anyone have an updated e-mail = Jon Lintvet?The Munro Rod site looks like it's= e-mail won't go through.Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEB244.84930360-- from mevans@acxiom.com Wed Jun 9 08:58:51 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:53:10 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 09 Jun1999 08:53:10-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Wed Jun09 08:53:09 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Rodmakers Subject: RE: Munro Rods Steven, Try: jlintvet@erols.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Munro Rods Does anyone have an updated e-mail address for Jon Lintvet?The Munro Rod site looks like it's offline and e-mail won't go through.Steve from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Jun 9 10:45:25 1999 IAA00442 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: planing form Does anybody have Ron Barch's e-mail address? from ballard@orion.wes.army.mil Wed Jun 9 13:05:38 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 09 Jun 1999 13:12:01 -0500 ; Wed, 9 Jun 99 13:11:54 CDT Subject: Fiberglass to Cane taper conversion? This may sound a bit odd, but does anyone have any experience convertinga fiberglass taper to a cane taper? I understand that we are dealing withdifferenttypes of weight (material weight) and bending forces, but I have a nicesmall castingrod that I would like to duplicate in cane. Thanks,Jerry Ballardballard@zen.wes.army.mil from cattanac@wmis.net Wed Jun 9 15:21:17 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id QAA24923; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:21:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Heat treating question Tony -The discussion of heat treating will go on forever. There are many time& temperatures combinations that are used today as in the past. Some usetheheat treating to color the bamboo as well. I recently read that Isometimesdon't present a convincing case for what I do or use. I would hope thatfolks see my offerings as sharing and not preaching. There are manyproducts and methods to get to the same result. The recommendation is totrythose that you like and then stick with one. That way there will beconstants and results can be repeatable - or nearly so.I have used basically 2 ovens - one at home and another on theroad(whendoing classes) - the construction is well known. To adjust the ovensthermometer I used a Fluke digital meter. The thermister was placed alongside the bulb of the termostat which is attached to the support screenthatis located 4" off the bottom of the oven shell. The thermostat has a 7degree 'window' between off and on cycles. I have never tested the manylocation within the oven to detect temp differences - I just flip the stripsat mid point of time. My guess is that If a temperature were taken high inthe oven shell that they might be lower than if taken at the support screendue to the shedding of heat from the mica strip heater. Some day I shoulddomore testing - although I would suspect that I will continue with the timeand temperatures that I have used for years.As for coloring - I have been flaming bamboo for many years - I justfinished an article for TBFR mag on the subject. What most may not knowishow the technique came about. Well, at one time I was helping with asituation up in Traverse City. It seems that when 'grandpa' moved fromDetroit to TC he hired a couple of his buds from the local *** to move theequipment. On the trip the famous 'Ring Of Fire' seems to have fallen fromthe truck. So with no usable flamed bamboo a technique needed to bedevisedso that the third generation's rods could look like the first. That is whenthe torch flaming was devised. The flaming does some moisture removalbutadditional heat treating is done to further temper the bamboo.Hope to be at the SRG this fall - perhaps this time we won't getdistracted by the sights west of STL. Wayne from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Wed Jun 9 15:38:19 1999 Subject: Re: Fiberglass to Cane taper conversion? On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Jerry Ballard wrote: This may sound a bit odd, but does anyone have any experience convertinga fiberglass taper to a cane taper? I understand that we are dealingwithdifferenttypes of weight (material weight) and bending forces, but I have a nicesmall castingrod that I would like to duplicate in cane. Would that be an old yellow Fenwick 6 footer? :) Regards, BobFly Suppliesflysupplies@yahoo.com from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Jun 10 02:37:21 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id TAA24242; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:37:09 +1200 owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Tight Loops, was Two different rods Tom , Many thanks for your help . I can see I am going to have to spend theweekend out on the lawn sorting out a casting problem . Ian Kearney At 04:53 PM 8/06/99 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:forward cast . This is not a problem I usually have . ( I have lots of others)>>> Ian - It sounds like a tailing loop problem. If you are used to larger rods, or faster tapers, you may be applying too much wrist power, or applyingit too soon. Try working with a short line, and concentrate on using just the tip of the rod to cast the line. Use as little wrist power as you can, and observe the loop. It should be smooth and tight. Gradually increase theline length and wrist power, but still use no more power than you need tomake the cast. Also concentrate on making an accelerating wrist motion, insteadof applying all your power at the beginning of the stroke. You should be ableto eliminate the problem, and if you do, it will improve your casting in general. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jun 10 08:14:20 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:14:09 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" ,Harry Boyd Subject: Southern (US) Gathering Friends,A gentleman named Jeremy Brynildson from Tennessee asked me of work I've been doing on plans for the 1999 Southern RodmakersGathering. (Jeremy has the beginnings of a nice website athttp://www.jbrodco.com/ ) For the sake of Ian, Tony, and othersin the Southern Hemisphere, maybe we ought to refer to our meetingas the Southern (US) Gathering. Plans for the gathering areshaping up nicely. Looks like the second time around will be evenbetter than the first. I hope you can all make it.Here's the scoop. The 1999 Southern Rodmakers Gathering will convene on ThursdayOctober 28, 1999 in Mountain Home, Arkansas at Dale Fulton's Lodgeon the White River.The Registration Fee for SRG '99 is $25.00. This fee covers allthe promotional costs, overhead and several meals. To insure your Harry Boyd507 HighlandWinnsboro, Louisiana 71295. Also and IMPORTANT, each person attending is asked to bringsomething for a Friday evening silent auction. At least one LieNielsen scraper plane will be auctioned. You can bring anything from a few hand-tied flies to a culm of cane to a few nice corkrings to some nice silk thread to a mint condition Gillum, Payne,or Garrison rod (of course, if you bring an old rod, Harry mightpull it out of the auction early!!) Schedule Of Activities Thursday October 28 4:00 pm Registration OpensSilent Auction begins6:00 Evening Meal at Fulton's7:00 First SeminarHow to Catch Fish on the White and North ForkRiversTom Rogers, TNT Flyfishing8:00 Tying flies for the White River SystemHarry Boyd, (and anyone who has a neatfish catcher!) Friday, October 29 6:00 am Light Breakfast and Cajun Coffee, then gofishing!10:00 First Demonstration12:00 noon Kurt Loup's Gen-U-Ine Cajun Gumbo3:00 pm Last Demonstration, (fish afterwards)6:00 pm Friday night party and meal at Fulton'sSilent Auction ConcludesDoor Prizes Saturday, October 30 6:00 am Light Breakfast and Cajun Coffee, then gofishing!10:00 Demonstrations begin12:00 noon Lunch, and officially dismiss, butmost of us will hangaround and fish and cast and continue to have fun We still have several openings for demonstrations, lectures,round-tables, etc. If you have an idea, contact Harry -- he willtry to work you in. BTW, this is a great way to promote yourwork! Planned demonstrations and forums include: ~ A "Home-grown" copy of Al Medved's Beveler -MikeBiondo (with input from Charlie Curro, MortenLovstad, andothers who have built their own Bevelers ~ Signing Rods, roughing out on a bandsaw, and asupersimple binder - Morten Lovstad ~ The Cosmic Cast-off -- A hands-on, do ityourself,on-going demonstration of various rods, lengths,tapers,and actions. (Harry needs some help with this -pleasevolunteer your rods and your expertise) ~ Richard Tyree's demo in 1998 was a big hit! Hehas agreed toshare generously from his imagination again,plus throw in afew new ideas this year. ~ Bill Lamberson will bring his Morgan Hand Millagain -- a neatpiece of equipment. ~ Wayne Cattanach will be kept busy withworkshops,demonstrations, and lectures. ~ Jon Bokstrom has produced a slide show on hissplitting techniqueswhich allow one to maximize usable cane fromyour culms. There are plenty of places to stay in Mountain Home. Ifyou need more information you can follow some of the links at theWeb site Charlie Curro designed at http://www.curro.net/srg99/, orcall Dale Fulton's Blue Ribbon Flys for suggestions. If I can help you, give me a call at:(318) 435-4359 (days)435-2278 (home)Or, drop me a note at hboyd@fbcwin.com Here's a few of the folks planning to attend:Harry BoydCharlie CurroRick CrenshawJody TitoneRuss CrabtreeMike BiondoOnis CogburnJoe KalloDon LaurenzanaLowell DavisSteve TrauthweinJohn ColeRichard and Shirley TyreeKurt LoupDennis HighamMorten LovstadJohn ScarboroughMark EvansKen ColeStuart MillerRon WilhelmHarold and Eileen DemarestWayne CattanachMiles TiernanMike SchafferHarold JacksonBob NunleyRon WilhelmMichael ChronisterDan RodgersRon HuffLeo Eck All the lodging accomodations at Fulton's are currentlyfull. (I still need the $100/person from about half the group)There may be a few cancellations. Let me know if you want to beon the waiting list. Harry from leroyt@involved.com Thu Jun 10 09:08:33 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52297U2500L250S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:08:28 -0700 Subject: heat treating boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEB310.13AE6F00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEB310.13AE6F00 Hi Gang, Read an article on heat treating that was on the list but can't =seem to find it . Title was something like this, Drying Effects On = Where can I find the lost article? Thanks LeRoy............. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEB310.13AE6F00 Hi Gang, Read an article on heat = was on the list but can't seem to find it . Title was something like = Drying Effects On Bamboo. Where can I find the lost article? = LeRoy............. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEB310.13AE6F00-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Jun 10 10:33:33 1999 Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:30:47 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Southern (US) Gathering of work I've been doing on plans for the 1999 Southern RodmakersGathering. (Jeremy has the beginnings of a nice website athttp://www.jbrodco.com/ ) For the sake of Ian, Tony, and othersin the Southern Hemisphere, maybe we ought to refer to our meetingas the Southern (US) Gathering. Plans for the gathering are Harry,I guess, but that's why it's "The Great Southern" out this way ;-) Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from jcooper@interalpha.co.uk Thu Jun 10 11:18:17 1999 post.interalpha.net(8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA31611 for; Thu, 10 Jun 199917:19:19 +0100 Subject: Davy Rigg boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEB365.22CECE80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEB365.22CECE80 List, I'm worried about the lack of contact from Davy Rigg. Does anyone have =word of this long time rodmaker? John Cooper ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEB365.22CECE80 List, I'm worried about the lack of contact = rodmaker? JohnCooper ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BEB365.22CECE80-- from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jun 10 11:41:29 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:41:24 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Southern (US) Gathering Darrell Lee wrote: Hi Harry, Sounds really great...Just curious, where does the proceeds go from the silent auction? I'm going to have to check my schedules to see if I can attend... reallysounds fun... Darrell Lee======================================== Darrell,Right now the proceeds of the silent auction are scheduled to go intofunding the gathering for October 2000. We're operating this thing out ofmyvest pocket, and a frayed vest pocket it is! We're trying to keep expensesaslow as possible. I will never take a dime of the proceeds for personal use.You have my word on that. I even put out a plaintive cry for someone elsetobe the treasurer of the group, but the only respondent was a lawyer. NowayI'm going to trust him with the group's money! >grin Hi Harry, Sounds really great...Just curious, where does the proceeds go from the silent auction? I'm going to have to check my schedules to see if I can attend... reallysounds fun... Darrell Lee======================================== from mevans@acxiom.com Thu Jun 10 11:51:19 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:45:38 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Thu, 10 Jun1999 11:45:38-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Thu Jun10 11:45:37 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: SRG II - Arkansas Fishing Tactics This fishing report came in to me a couple of days ago from a localArkansas angler.There is not a lot of dry fly action in Arkansas ... ________________________________ "I walked to the river, the hot winds coming over the top of the levy,trying to sap myenergy before my plans were cast. I could see the swirls in the water nearthe bank,signs that trout were within the greens below the darkened surface. With a smirk that betrayed my confidence in the art, I pulled my gear outand began towork the wonders that I knew would produce the fillets that alwaysmelted in my mouth. Ipulled out four sticks and let them from my Doral ultra menthol. I threwthem all in tothe pool and ran as fast as my Steel Shanks could carry me. I barely madeit to the treebefore I started hearing the blast. Turning back, I could see the hugeeruption ofwater, the sun casting rainbows everywhere. This sight, combined withthe deafeningroar--seemingly from the river itself--created within me an awe one canonly experience from wonders of nature just like this. I was thankful to be alive. I walked back up on the levy with the expectations of that great Argonaut,looking forthe fleece. There were the beauties I had battled for, lying up and downthe bank, withthe look of a great adversary who knows he's been bested on their faces. Istartedpicking them carefully, to make sure no injury was made. Crisco Time! Now to trap some of those hushpuppies...." (Be sure not to miss the First Seminar "How to Catch Fish on the White andNorth ForkRivers".) -----Original Message----- Subject: Southern (US) Gathering Friends,A gentleman named Jeremy Brynildson from Tennessee asked me of work I've been doing on plans for the 1999 Southern RodmakersGathering. (Jeremy has the beginnings of a nice website athttp://www.jbrodco.com/ ) from DARRELLL@earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 15:28:29 1999 NAA23079; Subject: Re[2]: Southern (US) Gathering boundary="=PMail:=_0010@@WED7iWQO4Hheen11kLPw" --=PMail:=_0010@@WED7iWQO4Hheen11kLPw So, when does the Western US Gathering meet??? How about in the townofBishop or by the famed Owens River? Or I know a little section of theKings River... only drawback is the 15 mile 3300' gain walk to camp. Kindahard to demo those electric milling machines I imagine... Darrell=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" ] Subject: Re: Southern (US) Gathering Darrell Lee wrote: Hi Harry, Sounds really great...Just curious, where does the proceeds go from the silent auction? I'm going to have to check my schedules to see if I can attend... reallysounds fun... Darrell Lee =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Darrell,Right now the proceeds of the silent auction are scheduled to go intofunding the gathering for October 2000. We're operating this thing outof myvest pocket, and a frayed vest pocket it is! We're trying to keep expenses= aslow as possible. I will never take a dime of the proceeds for personaluse.You have my word on that. I even put out a plaintive cry for someoneelse tobe the treasurer of the group, but the only respondent was a lawyer. =No wayI'm going to trust him with the group's money! >grin Hi Harry, Sounds really great...Just curious, where does the proceeds go from the silent auction? I'm going to have to check my schedules to see if I can attend... reallysounds fun... Darrell Lee =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --=PMail:=_0010@@WED7iWQO4Hheen11kLPw-- from oakmere@carol.net Thu Jun 10 18:56:27 1999 Subject: RE: Question Hi Folks: Does anyone know the wrapping colors used on a 7' HI Tonka Queen rod?Theone I have has been poorly redone by someone and needs redone. Also, didthis rod have intermediates which apprear to be additionally put on therod. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFox2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work)oakmere@carol.net (home) from FlyfishT@aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:16:08 1999 Subject: question about tapers I finished my first rod and I love it. I want to make many more. The nextone I want to make a little faster action. This leads me to a question. A friend said that there is information on the home page on how to read the stress curve charts and taper charts, but I couldn't find it. Does anyone have any information on how to read these charts? I need to know how to read themto pick out a suitable taper. Is there any information in the back issues ofThe Planing Form or in any other literature? Tom N(converted to cane) from PFSophist@aol.com Thu Jun 10 21:33:18 1999 Subject: Re: Question Dear Frank: I have an early rod that has been refinished, but I believe in the original colors. The wrappings are gold tipped with brown. My rod has two pieces. The butt has two guides (snake plus 1), the tip has the tip top plus 5. I am curious to hear from others regarding originality. from tomrichard@email.msn.com Thu Jun 10 21:38:01 1999 SMTPSVC;Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:37:26 -0700 Subject: BLOCK PLANES HAS ANYONE ON THE LIST PURCHASED OR USE ONE OF THELIE-NIELSEN ADJUSTABLE MOUTH BLOCK PLANES WITH THEGROOVE ON THE SOLE? ANY RESPONSE WOULD BE APPRECIATED. TOM from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Jun 10 22:22:44 1999 Subject: What makes a hinge work? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEB38F.BBAFABE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEB38F.BBAFABE0 I was fooling around with an otherwise non-descript Japanese 3 piece =8'6" rod yesterday and was surprised to find it easily cast a nice tight =roll for good distance (and I'm not usually a very good roll caster). I =think it might have (by accident) what Wayne C. called a hinge in his =recent article. The rod increases suddenly in width about 10" above the =tip ferrule (probably intended for strength) which shows up as a flat =spot, if you do a static deflection. Is this really a hinge effect? Whether it is or not, why does a hinge =work to improve roll casting? Thanks for any info. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEB38F.BBAFABE0 I was fooling around with an = non-descript Japanese 3 piece 8'6" rod yesterday and was surprised= it easily cast a nice tight roll for good distance (and I'm not usually = about 10" above the tip ferrule (probably intended for strength) = shows up as a flat spot, if you do a static deflection. does a hinge work to improve roll casting? Thanks for any info. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BEB38F.BBAFABE0-- from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Jun 11 07:35:34 1999 Subject: RE: Question At 07:58 PM 6/10/1999 -0400, Frank and Gail Paul wrote:Hi Folks: Does anyone know the wrapping colors used on a 7' HI Tonka Queen rod?Theone I have has been poorly redone by someone and needs redone. Also, didthis rod have intermediates which apprear to be additionally put on therod. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFox2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work)oakmere@carol.net (home) According to Mike Sinclair's Book Tonka Queen (1930's) ReelSeat----------Grip---------Stripper---------------- Ferrules2pc $14.00 Chrome Platebrass___Cigar______Agatene______ChromePlated NS Serrated Hand welt Silk Green/ white tips Tonka Queen (1940's) not listed Tonka Queen (1950's) Green TenniteDL___Straight____Perfection_____ChromePlate Brass Hand welt2 pc $15 Silk Gold/ Brown tips I do not believe any of the 2 pc rods had intermediates. I have a princessto which intermediates have been added. They are nylon, while theoriginalsare in silk. HandbookCentennial Publications-Grand Junction Colorado (1994) Doug EastonTonawanda, NY from jlintvet@erols.com Fri Jun 11 09:21:32 1999 Subject: Re: Munro Rods Sorry for the confusion...the address will remain the samejlintvet@munrorodco.com, however we are changing site providers. Thenewsite will be up any day. Actually it is up, just not connected tomunrorodco.com yet. Take care, Jon Lintvet (Munro Rod Company)(800) 836-7558www.munrorodco.com -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Munro Rods Steven,Try: jlintvet@erols.com -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 7:52 AM Subject: Munro Rods Does anyone have an updated e-mail address for Jon Lintvet?The Munro Rod site looks like it's offline and e-mail won't go through.Steve from jackdale@uswest.net Fri Jun 11 09:57:27 1999 (206.196.156.235) Subject: [Fwd: Virus alert.] 095072DC8A35F38956708203" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 095072DC8A35F38956708203 I apologize for introducing a non-rod building issue, but, with all thetrouble Happy99 caused, I think you should all be made aware of thisone, so I'm passing along this warning I received. Jack Dale --------------095072DC8A35F38956708203 0000 (207.82.63.55) Subject: Virus alert. All, If you have not already seen it, this is a virus alert taken directly fromMcafee.Com. Please make a note of it. W32/ExploreZip.worm is a worm that infects Windows systems. It is verydangerous, potentially more destructive than Melissa. It reproduces itself attachmentcalled "zipped_files.exe". It includes a payload: it will search theuser's hard drive and delete all files of IMPORTANT =97 If you receive an email with the message "I received youremai=land I shall send you a reply ASAP. Till then, take a look at the attachedzipped docs.", DELETE IT IMMEDIATELY! It will have an attachment called"zipped_files.exe"; DO NOT DOUBLE-CLICK OR RUN THIS ATTACHMENT! If youdo,it will infect your system! --------------095072DC8A35F38956708203-- from irvine@bamboorods.org Fri Jun 11 12:02:21 1999 4.30.0010/LC0055.00.e068cef4) with ESMTP id bgqjaaaa for;Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:02:29 -0700 Subject: Great Western To all interested in a gathering in the Eastern Sierras, Bishop areathis fall or winter, Holler. I now live just North of Bishop and wouldcertainly entertain the idea of doing alot of the leg work for such agathering. Lots of fishes in the Owens and it is open all year. Tight lines, Chuck from RHD360@Maine.Maine.Edu Fri Jun 11 12:29:22 1999 MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTPLevel 310) via TCP with SMTP ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:27:19 EDT Subject: Re: BLOCK PLANES Tom, I have a Stanley 9 1/2 purchased a few yrs ago. It works fine. Itdid require some effort to flatten the sole, true up the end of the frogthat holds the blade in place and so on. The stock blade works fine, youjust have to sharpen it more often than say a Hock blade. Adjusting thedepth of the blade's cut it not easy because of the slop in the mechanism 1/2 L/N and it's a beautiful tool, very refined in so many ways. The solewas dead on out of the box for starters, and the key features are far morerefined. The mechanism for adjusting the depth of cut for instance ismucheasier to operate and one consequence it that I adjust it more often tosuit the work. The blade is thicker than a Hock blade and holds an edgewell, so there is no need to purchase a replacement. There are some more comfortable to use for long periods of time, relative to the newer Stanleytypes. Hope that helps, Bob. At 09:35 AM 6/10/99 -0500, you wrote:HAS ANYONE ON THE LIST PURCHASED OR USE ONE OF THELIE-NIELSEN ADJUSTABLE MOUTH BLOCK PLANES WITH THEGROOVE ON THE SOLE? ANY RESPONSE WOULD BE APPRECIATED. TOM Robert M. Milardo, Ph.D.17 Merrill Hall Univ. of MaineOrono, ME 04469207 581-3128 from brewer@teleport.com Fri Jun 11 13:05:52 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0Ox1rJ; Fri Jun 11 11:05:421999 0700 Subject: FW: Great Western I learned to fly fish on those waters. Caught my first trout on a flyrod up on Bishop Creek. I live in Oregon now, but the Bishop area would be a nice place for a gathering! -Randy Brewer -----Original Message----- Subject: Great Western To all interested in a gathering in the Eastern Sierras, Bishop areathis fall or winter, Holler. I now live just North of Bishop and wouldcertainly entertain the idea of doing alot of the leg work for such agathering. Lots of fishes in the Owens and it is open all year. Tight lines, Chuck from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Jun 11 15:32:52 1999 Subject: HI specs, re posted Hope that this is A BIT CLEARER. According to Mike Sinclair's Book Tonka Queen (1930's) Reel Seat--Chrome Plated Brass, Cap and ringGrip---CigarStripper--- AgatineFerrules--- Chrome plated Nickel Silver Serrated /w hand welt