from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 1 00:55:59 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: News from the Gehrke front I'll bet he wishes he were making a whole 5o and hour! (Even CDN!!!) George -----Original Message----- Subject: News from the Gehrke front Terry, et al - Just checked the web site. He says he's done a tip. - Seth from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 1 00:58:29 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Splitting mayhem I'll second Art's request (provided Sean is willing)! George -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Sean's a list member and this is really his technique.I feel uncomfortable writing it up and posting itwithout his OK. Sean, sorry to put you in the hot seat (that damnReply to All button...). Please be patient, everyone.If Sean gives me the OK, I'll post it. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Art PortSent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Richard,That may have been intended foroff-list transmission, but there areplenty of us who'd like to hear his advice.Unless it's copy-righted *G*.Art from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 1 01:00:02 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 "'rodmakers'" Subject: Re: How is it different from the old one? George -----Original Message----- First I have no finacial or business interest in Goldenwitch rods. I justreceived the new improved leclair snake maker from Russ and I have tosayit's a great improvement. It can now make snakes of all sized and IMHO iswell worth the price. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-237-1460Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from dickay@alltel.net Thu Jul 1 06:06:49 1999 GAA08702 Subject: Lathe Help boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01BEC387.6D2E3A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BEC387.6D2E3A60 Harry, Ed Estlow had the right idea, but I think the address has been changed. = http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm Also try : http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htm These should totally baffle you. Good Luck Dick Fuhrman dickay@alltel.net ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BEC387.6D2E3A60 Harry, to try: http://15=5.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htmAlso try :http://easyweb=.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/techindx.htmThese should totally baffle =you.Good LuckDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BEC387.6D2E3A60-- from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Jul 1 08:53:43 1999 mail4.wmis.net (8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id JAA22155 for; Thu, 09:41:44 -0400 Subject: RE: Pictures from the Rock again Chuck -Once again you have displayed the creative mind of Memphis - greatshots - Ishould have some of the fish shots up later at the rodco site - also the'artists' atwork from castafly@gbis.com Thu Jul 1 11:14:39 1999 Subject: Lathe Questions boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEC3A1.BE1A53E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEC3A1.BE1A53E0 All this recent talk of lathes has me thinking about buying one again. =I have yet to build a rod (although I am in the process of acquiring the =tools, building final planing forms, and reading appropriate books and =information), but I can see where a small lathe would be handy for =building rods, rod components, and other fun projects. My question is =what lathes do you rodbuilders recommend? I have literature for =Sherline and Unimat lathes. Do these lathes have the required features =and specifications needed for rod building? How crucial is the size of =the hole through the headstock? Are there any other lathes you =recommend for rod builing and general hobby use? What accessories do =you recommend? I have read in a number of bamboo rod building books how=useful a lathe can be, but not much information about desired features =and specifications. Any input would be appreciated. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEC3A1.BE1A53E0 All this recent talk of lathes has= process of acquiring the tools, building final planing forms, and = appropriate books and information), but I can see where a small lathe = Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEC3A1.BE1A53E0-- from mevans@acxiom.com Thu Jul 1 11:52:12 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:45:54 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Thu, 01 Jul1999 11:45:54-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Thu Jul01 11:45:53 1999 -0500 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Lathe Questions To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'd really appreciate a post on hisquestions. I'd also appreciate comments on the Taig Micro Lathe II. The head stockhole is .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough for most trout tapers - ? What HP motor is needed (for wood and metal)? On a mini-lathe is 1/4horse enough? (Long term, I'd like to try to make my own ferrules.) I'm waiting on my heat gun to start the first rod in earnest. TIA for yourhelp for us just getting started. - Lots to learn. Mark All this recent talk of lathes has me thinking about buying one again. Ihave yet tobuild a rod (although I am in the process of acquiring the tools, buildingfinal planingforms, and reading appropriate books and information), but I can see wherea small lathewould be handy for building rods, rod components, and other fun projects. My questionis what lathes do you rodbuilders recommend? I have literature forSherline and Unimatlathes. Do these lathes have the required features and specificationsneeded for rodbuilding? How crucial is the size of the hole through the headstock? Arethere anyother lathes you recommend for rod builing and general hobby use? Whataccessories doyou recommend? I have read in a number of bamboo rod building books howuseful a lathecan be, but not much information about desired features andspecifications. Any inputwould be appreciated. Jeff from Scott_Keith@indymac.com Thu Jul 1 11:59:16 1999 mail02-lax.pilot.net with SMTP id JAA03502 for; Thu, 1 Jul 882567A1.005CF940 ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:55:31 -0700 Subject: remove remove from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jul 1 12:28:39 1999 Subject: RE: Lathe Questions I have a Taig Micro Lathe II. I purchased it directly from the company that makes it and they bored out thehead a bit to accommodate larger rod sections. It's anice, inexpensive machine. I haven't really put it toextreme tests yet, since all I've done with it ismount ferrules, turn grips, file down nodes, and sandoff enamel. I intend to make ferrules with it shortly. One thing it doesn't do, though, is cut threads. So ifyou plan on making locking reel seats or threaded caps make. Lee Valley stocks woodturning attachments for thislathe so, for only a small additional outlay, you canturn things like decorative pots, dishes, salad bowls(as long as you don't mind eating from a 4-inch bowl.) Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of mevans - MarkEvansSent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:54 PM Subject: RE: Lathe Questions To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'dreally appreciate a post on his questions. I'd also appreciate comments on the TaigMicro Lathe II. The head stock holeis .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough What HP motor is needed (for wood andmetal)? On a mini-lathe is 1/4 horse enough?(Long term, I'd like to try to make my ownferrules.) I'm waiting on my heat gun to start thefirst rod in earnest. TIA for your help for usjust getting started. - Lots to learn. Mark from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jul 1 12:31:28 1999 10:44:47 PDT Subject: RE: Lathe Questions I can provide some feedback on the Sherline lathe. I use a 4400 which is the model with the 17" between centers. The model 4000 at 10" between centers wouldn't allow much room for turning cork handles. The headstockis bored at .405", which is enough to accomodate pretty much any trout rod. If you were making a fairly large rod you might run out of clearance, but you have to remember that when your turning a ferrule station, or fitting a mounted male ferrule the part going through the headstock is not the butt of the blank which has the largest diameter, but rather the smaller diameter end of the butt section. I can use it to turn down the blank where the reelseat mounts and turn cork handles with the 17" between centers. I know that ferrules can be made on these lathes, I've seen it done. Ferrule plugs can also be turned with these of course. These lathes have a speed of 0- 2800 RPM's. I wish the tailstock were easier to remove, but I don't have any real trouble flexing the section enough to fit it through the headstock. I guess that is all I can say. It works well for me, the cost was relatively low, and it takes up very little space if those are issues for you. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from dryfly@erols.com Thu Jul 1 12:47:06 1999 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions JeffI purchased a #4400 Sherline lathe package in the spring and love I've used it for turning ferrule stations, lapping ferrules and turning inserts and later plan to turn my own cap and ring nickel silver hardware mine from Jon Linvet and between his recommendations and me lookingthroughthe Sherline web site I was able to pick up a few very useful accessories,including a live center, spur driver, cutoff tool, steady rest, knurlingtools, etc. Sherlinebecause of its small size, which allows you to put it away when its not been an issue for me (I've built six cane rods and four graphites since built lathe for the money and is better suited for rodbuilding than the and was impressed with its capabilities and posted some very favorablecomments about it.Good luckBobJeff Ferguson wrote: this yet to build a rod (although I am in the process of acquiring the tools,building final planing forms, and reading appropriate books andinformation),but I can see where a small lathe would be handy for building rods, rod Unimat specifications builing I have read in a number of bamboo rod building books how useful a lathecan be, but not much information about desired features and from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jul 1 13:34:53 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:34:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions mevans - Mark Evans wrote: To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'd really appreciate a post on hisquestions. I'd also appreciate comments on the Taig Micro Lathe II. The headstock holeis .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough for most trout tapers - ? Mark,Remeber that a hexagonal rod section which is .3125" across theflats will belarger than that from corner to corner. My geometry skill are woeful, butone of themathemeticians on the list may jump in and tell you exactly how much. Abore through of.3125" would only handle rod sections, just guessing, about .275"?? That'san awfullysmall butt end measurement. I've seen a few that small, but most troutweight rods run from .300-.375".Might want to check on the suggestion to see about having the OEMbore the holeout a little.Harry from anglport@con2.com Thu Jul 1 15:28:00 1999 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions Harry,Go with your instincts -- they ain't "woeful" at all. I just worked itout(at your challenge) and it's .2706! That kind of PLANING error probablywouldn't affect the action of a rod for criminy sakes! *G* AND we must remember that, unlike plastic, our blanks are usuallylinear Art At 01:31 PM 7/1/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:mevans - Mark Evans wrote: To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'd really appreciate a post on hisquestions. I'd also appreciate comments on the Taig Micro Lathe II. The headstock holeis .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough for most trout tapers - ? Mark,Remeber that a hexagonal rod section which is .3125" across theflats will be larger than that from corner to corner. My geometry skillare woeful, but one of the mathemeticians on the list may jump in and tellyou exactly how much. A bore through of .3125" would only handle rodsections, just guessing, about .275"?? That's an awfully small butt endmeasurement. I've seen a few that small, but most trout weight rods run from .300-.375".Might want to check on the suggestion to see about having the OEMbore the hole out a little.Harry from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jul 1 15:37:36 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:37:26 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Lathe Questions Art,I knew one of y'all would take up the challenge!! You didn't disappointme!Can't believe I was only off by .0044"?? If all my butt sections miked outthat closeI would be satisfied. Not bad for a guy whose degree is in theology ratherthanphysics or engineering, huh? Proves anybody can make a lucky guess nowand then.You do raise the valid point that the linear nature of butts may create achallenge in getting them in a mini-lathe. But doesn't Tony Young have afew"work-arounds" in his arsenal of tricks? Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,Go with your instincts -- they ain't "woeful" at all. I just worked itout(at your challenge) and it's .2706! That kind of PLANING error probablywouldn't affect the action of a rod for criminy sakes! *G*AND we must remember that, unlike plastic, our blanks are usuallylinear Art At 01:31 PM 7/1/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:mevans - Mark Evans wrote: To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'd really appreciate a post on hisquestions. I'd also appreciate comments on the Taig Micro Lathe II. The headstock holeis .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough for most trout tapers - ? Mark,Remeber that a hexagonal rod section which is .3125" across theflats will be larger than that from corner to corner. My geometry skillare woeful, but one of the mathemeticians on the list may jump in andtellyou exactly how much. A bore through of .3125" would only handle rodsections, just guessing, about .275"?? That's an awfully small butt endmeasurement. I've seen a few that small, but most trout weight rods run from .300-.375".Might want to check on the suggestion to see about having the OEMbore the hole out a little.Harry from dryfly@erols.com Thu Jul 1 15:59:43 1999 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions With a quick calculation using the old Pythagorean theory, I getapproximately .271 asthe max for a .3125 bore hole, but you would have to be something lessthan the max ifyou put masking tape on the blank to prevent it from touching the lathe asit turns(which I always do in case the blank is not exactly straight). I knew beinga mathmajor in college would one day prove beneficial, (thanks to mom and dad investment.) Bob Harry Boyd wrote: mevans - Mark Evans wrote: To the list,I'd like to second Jeff''s request. I'd really appreciate a post on hisquestions. I'd also appreciate comments on the Taig Micro Lathe II. The headstock holeis .3125 (20/64). This seems large enough for most trout tapers - ? Mark,Remeber that a hexagonal rod section which is .3125" across theflats will belarger than that from corner to corner. My geometry skill are woeful, butone of themathemeticians on the list may jump in and tell you exactly how much. Abore through of.3125" would only handle rod sections, just guessing, about .275"?? That'san awfullysmall butt end measurement. I've seen a few that small, but most troutweight rods run from .300-.375".Might want to check on the suggestion to see about having the OEMbore thehole out a little.Harry from anglport@con2.com Thu Jul 1 16:09:28 1999 Subject: Question All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted to put itintoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle, ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Jul 1 16:36:38 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AFB16FC013A; Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:37:53 EDT Subject: Re: Question Art,Try "The Payne I Plane is Mainly for my Swain."I have it on good authority that some of the major rodmakers (e.g.,Edwards,Thomas) built butt sections at 4' lengths, then cut them at differentintervalsaccording to the length (7', 7'6", 8') and style (wet vs. dry) required. Thiswouldhave the butt swell falling under the cork occasionally (cut open Bogart'sSweetheartand you'll see that).Best regards,Reed Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted to putit intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle, ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from brewer@teleport.com Thu Jul 1 16:58:01 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAuKrxp_; Thu Jul 1 14:57:571999 0700 Subject: RE: Lathe Questions I bought a "mini" lathe from Harbor Freight tools on sale for $289. It does a nice job, but is probably not as accurate as a Sherline. It has enough power to do a good job on cork and can cut threads, too. As usual, no financial interest here. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/taf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684 -Randy Brewer from RVenneri@aol.com Thu Jul 1 17:37:27 1999 Subject: New Email adress anglport@con2.com, awcamp@rapidnet.com,tomchandler@earthlink.net,stpete@netten.net, Flyrods@aol.com, DavidEdens@aol.com,donys@worldnet.att.net, DEMARALON@aol.com, flyfishdon@mhv.net,stetzer@csd.uwm.edu, gofish@flyrods.com, WinofTime@aol.com,djhall@cisco.com, FISHWOOL@aol.com, jaheine@mail.telis.org,kaoboy@inreach.com, dhaftel@att.com.Haftel, Dennis.Jay@aol.com,jgm56@gateway.net, jlintvet@clarityconnect.com,jon.a.poling-1@tc.umn.edu, wendyh@ulster.net,JorgeCarcao@myna.com,kencaines@waterloowood.com, KDLoup@aol.com,darrell01@netzero.net,LMallory@ix.netcom.com, michael@wugate.wustl.edu,kanarekorigami@hotmail.com, Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net, nymph@acd-pc.com,nussrods@westol.com, Patrick.Coffey@pss.boeing.com,jaquin@netsync.net,BarbRain@aol.com, rcurry@top.monad.net, RMargiotta@aol.com, fbcwin@fsbnet.com (HarryBoyd), Grhghlndr@aol.com, bobnsam@ulster.net,liviub@ed.atl.sita.int Hi Every one,The email address below will be my new email address stating today. Ifany one needs to contact me email is: rvenneri@ulster.netI will be on vacation for a week talk to you all soon Best regards,Bob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882rvenneri@ulster.net from MFink96@aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:13:01 1999 Subject: remove remove from RMargiotta@aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:35:21 1999 Subject: Taper for an 8'0" Orvis Nymph Just acquired an 8'0" 2/2 Orvis Nymph, 3 3/4 oz. stated for an HFG (WF4) line. Tried a Wulff TT 4/5 on it and it is really sweet/slow/delicate. Here's the taper, measured over impregnated cane, so I didn't subtract anything. I averaged the three flats, but there was very little flat-to-flat variation: 1 0.0775 0.08810 0.10115 0.11220 0.12425 0.13330 0.14435 0.15440 0.16045 0.17250 0.19355 0.20760 0.21165 0.23270 0.24675 0.25880 0.27285 0.28788 0.289 (est.) The stress curve has been saved on Frank Stetzer's online Hexrod under "Nymph". --Rich from MICK@welfen-netz.com Thu Jul 1 20:43:24 1999 [127.0.0.1] with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Fri, 02 Jul1999 03:43:20 +0200 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Question Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted to putit intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle, ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from anglport@con2.com Thu Jul 1 21:58:31 1999 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Question Michael,All I can say is: WOW! Can you imagine US pulling that?Art At 03:47 AM 7/2/99 +0200, Michael Mèller wrote:Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 2 00:48:53 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions One caveat on Harbor Freight (they are currently in my doghouse...and it isa first order, too!): I ordered some cut-off inserts and a holder for them. Of course theinsertscame and they cancelled out my order for the holder (wasn't in stock). So Icalled and re-ordered the holder...still nothing. If they were an officesupply company I'd have two crates of staples and no stapler! George -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Lathe Questions I bought a "mini" lathe from Harbor Freight tools on sale for $289. It doesa nice job, but is probably not as accurate as a Sherline. It has enoughpower to do a good job on cork and can cut threads, too. As usual, nofinancial interest here. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/taf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684 -Randy Brewer from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 2 00:54:23 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Question Not sure how to read this. Are you referring to taper changes over theyears from Ed Payne to Jim Payne? Or do you mean that when the companywasunder Payne ownership that in the same year you could order the samemodelnumber rod and get varying tapers? Or is that just some lack of qualitycontrol since the company has been out of Payne-family ownership for thelast 30+ years? George -----Original Message----- RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Question Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestionsto thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samenameor model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from chris@artistree.com Fri Jul 2 01:21:52 1999 Subject: Re: Lathe Questions Can't even begin to tell you the amount of problems I've had with HarborFreight. At this point I just expect some kind of hassle anytime I placean order. They do have cheap prices but you pay in other ways. But I do remember one time I ordered a few 5-pack sanding disks invarious grits. Well, they forgot to ship the one grit I really needed. Icalled them up and reported it and they shipped my 1 package ofdisks...but this package contained fifty 5-packs. Some guy in thewarehouse mistook my order for the larger "inventory" bag and I ended upwith 250 disks for the price of a five pack! I guess it all comes aroundeventually. George, there's a Harbor Freight store in Newark and one in Stockton.Sometimes it pays to call them to see if they have it in stock beforegoing the mail-order route. -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com irish-george wrote: One caveat on Harbor Freight (they are currently in my doghouse...and itisa first order, too!): I ordered some cut-off inserts and a holder for them. Of course theinsertscame and they cancelled out my order for the holder (wasn't in stock). So Icalled and re-ordered the holder...still nothing. If they were an officesupply company I'd have two crates of staples and no stapler! George from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jul 2 09:10:33 1999 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Question Michael,who are the Payne rodmakers? from what I remember the Payne name and equipment was picked up byJohnson Wax whoyearslater sold it to an employee who started REC.REC tried to get the Payne equipment up and running but could not producetips(familiar?) I drove down to Vermont a couple of years ago to purchase some of thePayne bamboobecausemy usual supplier at the time could not deliver. I was shown all the Payneequipment andahalf finished rod shop with with a large window where visitors could peerin at arodmakerat work. They told me they were looking for a rodmaker several times andhow they plantoproduce Payne rods again. It sounded very much like a hint but I am notsure. Icertainlywas not going to touch that. How can you build Payne rods if you are notPayne.It was very interesting to see the type of machinery that Payne used and from that itwaseasy to see that it was his genius that was was the real asset and not theworn out junkthat was used.I cannot see how you can make Payne rods by picking up his equipment longafter he isdead. Rather like calling yourself Picasso and knocking out similar styledwork.Terry Michael Mèller wrote: Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from Anachemrpo@aol.com Fri Jul 2 09:49:51 1999 Subject: Payne & a Green Mountain digression In a message dated 7/2/99 10:17:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: from what I remember the Payne name and equipment was picked up byJohnson Wax who yearslater sold it to an employee who started REC.REC Bill Alley (referred to above) sold the Payne stuff quite a few years ago, prior to selling his Diamondback graphite fly rod business (which was sold again to Cortland last year) and his REC business to the currrent owner in Connecticut. Vermont fly fishers like to keep up on these things. The Big "O" is not are only rodmaker who has made its home in the Green Mountains, starting with Chubb right up through today with Robert Gormanof Green River rods... Russ Lavigne from leroyt@involved.com Fri Jul 2 10:30:02 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:29:57 -0700 Subject: lathe info boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC465.66853720" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC465.66853720 Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline that will be = We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance but wish it had a power on =the lead screw so one could finish better and cut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, but couldn't get dialed =in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throw in some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if you buy a new or used machine =you are going to have to tweak it.Both companies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig they =replaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if you have other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected via pocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on the web to look for information: Sherline, =Taig, and Harbor Freights Mini lathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a =good place to start. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC465.66853720 Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am= using a Sherline that will be history also. We felt that the Taig cut = tolerance but wish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish = and cut threads.Sherline is a good product,= Have learned a good lesson= you buy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak =it.Both companies gave good = part problem with the Taig they replaced it, same with =Sherline.Feel free to contact me of = have other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not = pocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places= look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Mini lathe = ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC465.66853720-- from brewer@teleport.com Fri Jul 2 10:36:14 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAmo7GC_; Fri Jul 2 08:36:021999 0700 Subject: Harbor Freight Good point, George. I had a similar experience to yours when trying to get a part for a table saw. The lathe I got seems to do the job, but it is always risky when you try to buy cheap! -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Lathe Questions One caveat on Harbor Freight (they are currently in my doghouse...and it isa first order, too!): I ordered some cut-off inserts and a holder for them. Of course the insertscame and they cancelled out my order for the holder (wasn't in stock). So Icalled and re-ordered the holder...still nothing. If they were an officesupply company I'd have two crates of staples and no stapler! George -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Lathe Questions I bought a "mini" lathe from Harbor Freight tools on sale for $289. It doesa nice job, but is probably not as accurate as a Sherline. It has enoughpower to do a good job on cork and can cut threads, too. As usual, nofinancial interest here. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/taf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684 -Randy Brewer Randy BrewerInformation Services DirectorOregon State Scholarship Commission541-687- 7428http://www.ossc.state.or.usrandy.a.brewer@state.or.us (state e- mail)brewer@teleport.com (personal e-mail) from JHecht9234@aol.com Fri Jul 2 10:38:39 1999 Subject: blueing question Has anyone tried the oxidizing solution sold by REC? It is the same stuffas Kodak Rapid Fixer used in film developing (I guess). I've never tried to blue before, and ferrules are expensive. I would sure appreciate any thoughts on whether this solution will work, tips, likely coloring, etc. Thanks in advance. from leroyt@involved.com Fri Jul 2 10:55:40 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com for ; Fri, 2Jul 1999 08:55:33 -0700 Subject: Payne Rods boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC468.F7D002C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC468.F7D002C0 The Payne Rod Company is alive and doing business out of a small shop in =Sisters Oregon. The owner still has the big gold leaf window installed =so you can look into the work area. Sounds like the original. =Leroy....... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC468.F7D002C0 The Payne Rod Company is = business out of a small shop in Sisters Oregon. The owner still has the = leaf window installed so you can look into the work area. Sounds like = original. Leroy....... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC468.F7D002C0-- from leroyt@involved.com Fri Jul 2 11:01:29 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com for ;Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:01:26 -0700 Subject: payne rod boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC469.CA390FE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC469.CA390FE0 There is a Payne Rod Company in Sisters,Oregon. He has the gold leafed =plate glass window so you can look at his shop. Leroy..... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC469.CA390FE0 There is a Payne RodCompany = Sisters,Oregon. He has the gold leafed plate glass window so you can = shop. Leroy..... ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEC469.CA390FE0-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Jul 2 11:18:25 1999 9:32:03 PDT Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are $2100 to $2200 so they must be about the best available. http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from brewer@teleport.com Fri Jul 2 11:41:07 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAAaKQfm_; Fri Jul 2 09:40:531999 0700 Subject: RE: Payne Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then I can put out a newBeatles album. =:-0 -----Original Message----- Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are $2100 to $2200 so they must be about the best available. http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jul 2 12:19:34 1999 Subject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last weeks auction?What about alltheElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Payne crap. It appears tobefraudulentto me because a Payne rod is about the man and the Payne rod died withPayne.Terry Randy Brewer wrote: Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then I can put out a newBeatlesalbum. =:-0 -----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL [SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu]Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are $2100 to $2200sothey must be about the best available.http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rvenneri@ulster.net Fri Jul 2 12:34:14 1999 Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:40:56 -0400 Subject: Re: blueing question JHecht9234@aol.com wrote: Has anyone tried the oxidizing solution sold by REC? It is the same stuffasKodak Rapid Fixer used in film developing (I guess). I've never tried toblue before, and ferrules are expensive. I would sure appreciate anythoughts on whether this solution will work, tips, likely coloring, etc.Thanks in advance.Try out the solution from dave laclair that stuff works great and theprice is good Bob V from tklein@amgen.com Fri Jul 2 12:49:32 1999 smtp.amgen.com via smap (3.2) Subject: RE: Payne After reading through the Payne website list of who sold the company towhom, and moved it where, prior to selling it to whom, etc... I tend tobelieve that you're probably right. There is a gullible portion of the population though, that will see thePayne name and the $2000.00 price tag and write a check. (I wonder if there's enough of those people for the new owners to recoupthecost of purchasing the "Payne" name?)---Tim ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND[SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:22 AM Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last weeksauction?What about all theElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Payne crap. It appearsto be fraudulentto me because a Payne rod is about the man and the Payne rod died withPayne.Terry from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Jul 2 13:17:50 1999 0400 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: blueing question If you are interested in bluing ferrules, go directly past go and contact Dave LeClair. His stuff works extremely well. Usual disclaimer-except for being a fan of the stuff.Jerry Snider -----Original Message----- Subject: blueing question Has anyone tried the oxidizing solution sold by REC? It is the same stuff asKodak Rapid Fixer used in film developing (I guess). I've never tried toblue before, and ferrules are expensive. I would sure appreciate anythoughts on whether this solution will work, tips, likely coloring, etc.Thanks in advance. from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Jul 2 13:21:49 1999 0400 Haven't been able to contact Golden Witch via their web site. Does anyone know if they have changed their address or is the server simply down?TIA.Jerry Snider from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Jul 2 13:29:50 1999 11:43:22 PDT Subject: Golden Witch Jerry, I am able to access it under http://www.goldenwitch.com/index.html Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from RMargiotta@aol.com Fri Jul 2 13:38:35 1999 Subject: Re: Payne Website Their catalog is interesting. It mirrors the 1975 Payne catalog in format. --Rich from thramer@presys.com Fri Jul 2 14:47:10 1999 Subject: Payne After seeing some of the current efforts they may still be looking.A.J. from chris@artistree.com Fri Jul 2 14:54:55 1999 Subject: Harbor Freight Can't even begin to tell you the amount of problems I've had with HarborFreight. At this point I just expect some kind of hassle anytime I placean order. They do have cheap prices but you pay in other ways. But I do remember one time I ordered a few 5-pack sanding disks invarious grits. Well, they forgot to ship the one grit I really needed. Icalled them up and reported it and they shipped my 1 package ofdisks...but this package contained fifty 5-packs. Some guy in thewarehouse mistook my order for the larger "inventory" bag and I ended upwith 250 disks for the price of a five pack! I guess it all comes aroundeventually. George, there's a Harbor Freight store in Newark and one in Stockton.Sometimes it pays to call them to see if they have it in stock beforegoing the mail-order route. -- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com irish-george wrote: One caveat on Harbor Freight (they are currently in my doghouse...and itisa first order, too!): I ordered some cut-off inserts and a holder for them. Of course theinsertscame and they cancelled out my order for the holder (wasn't in stock). So Icalled and re-ordered the holder...still nothing. If they were an officesupply company I'd have two crates of staples and no stapler! George from stpete@netten.net Fri Jul 2 15:00:23 1999 Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:01:21 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: blueing question I'll third the nomination by Bob V and Jerry that Dave LeClair'soxidizing formula is tops. Don't waste time with others. Dave's is thebest and the easiest for a novice. I tried several formulas availablelocally. You can get a decent bluing but you have to be extremelycareful about cleaning and the soldered joints don't come out well. Dave's solution results in a nice even color and you can get it reallydark if you take an extra dip. thanks Dave, Rick C. Jerry Snider wrote: If you are interested in bluing ferrules, go directly past go and contactDave LeClair. His stuff works extremely well. Usual disclaimer-exceptforbeing a fan of the stuff.Jerry Snider -----Original Message-----From: JHecht9234@aol.com [SMTP:JHecht9234@aol.com]Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:37 AM Subject: blueing question Has anyone tried the oxidizing solution sold by REC? It is the same stuffasKodak Rapid Fixer used in film developing (I guess). I've never tried toblue before, and ferrules are expensive. I would sure appreciate anythoughts on whether this solution will work, tips, likely coloring, etc.Thanks in advance. from rcurry@ttlc.net Fri Jul 2 17:25:07 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AC9879E010C; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 18:26:32 EDT Subject: Re: Question Terry, from what I understand, Payne ran a production shop with the intent ofgetting out"Onerod per man per week.". He may have been a good, or great, rodmaker, butI'm sure thatsomeoneelse could have successfully carried on the manufacturing operation, solong as thequalitycontrols were intact. After all, "Leonard" made some good rods long afterHiram died.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: How can you build Payne rods if you are not Payne.It was very interesting to see the type of machinery that Payne used and from that itwaseasy to see that it was his genius that was was the real asset and notthe worn outjunkthat was used.I cannot see how you can make Payne rods by picking up his equipmentlong after he isdead. Rather like calling yourself Picasso and knocking out similarstyled work.Terry Michael Mèller wrote: Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model#but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Jul 2 18:20:10 1999 Subject: Re: Question The same way you keep making Orvis rods or any other product long afterthe original maker is dead and gone. I am sure that we are not drinking thesame coke that was made by the original owner nor are we eating Mr. Crocks McDonalds original hamburgers.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jul 2 20:00:54 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Question Orvis had uninterrupted production of a product that was not regardedwith asmuch affection as Payne and this is reflected in the prices of used rods.Payne built rods all his life, he knew nothing else and lived from hand tomouthrelying on benefactors to help. It irritates me no end to think of fakePayneswith a price tagsthat J. Payne could not even dream of.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: The same way you keep making Orvis rods or any other product long aftertheoriginal maker is dead and gone. I am sure that we are not drinking thesamecoke that was made by the original owner nor are we eating Mr. CrocksMcDonalds original hamburgers.Bret from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 3 00:29:49 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Payne How right you are! First it was about Ed Payne, then Jim Payne...I wouldhave accepted Walt Carpenter as owner of Payne (as he apprenticed there).To me, it all has to do with continuity and paying one's dues. I thinkanyone who worked side-by-side for a minimum of 6 or 7 years with Jimwouldhave been accepted. Dave H is quite removed from Jim Payne...didn't atleast Gladding, Bacon, and Boulding own the company between Jim P andDaveH? George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last weeksauction?What about all theElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Payne crap. It appearsto be fraudulentto me because a Payne rod is about the man and the Payne rod died withPayne.Terry Randy Brewer wrote: Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then I can put out a newBeatles album. =:-0 -----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL [SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu]Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are $2100 to $2200sothey must be about the best available.http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Nodewrrior@aol.com Sat Jul 3 01:57:28 1999 Subject: Re: blueing question I made the stuff in Garrison Carmichael using the fixer. It does make anice brown color on NS, but hard to get it "just right".The Leclair stuff works great for me as does Birchwood Casey Brass black. -Hoffhines from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 3 02:01:12 1999 02:00:38 -0500 ix14.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: More Splitting mayhem I would also love to learn another method of splitting. I just split myfirst culm today and got 14 tip sections and about the same for buttsections. I was shown a method that looked pretty easy by Tony Perez atTuxedo Cane. I have no interest (Yadda Yadda Yadda), but Tony wasreally helpful and took the time to show me some great methods. Ofcourse I have no experience with other cane suppliers yet, but I wasvery impressed with how helpful he was. I'll call Tony and see if hewould mind me sharing his method. I have a question regarding wet planing. I've read the thread onsoaking strips before planing, but would like some more guidance. Isthis really an acceptable method and what are the downsides to wetplaning. How about milling? I saw something about making a milling jigthat uses a router. Do these things really work for rough planing. Icould probably spring for a router and the jig, but a full blown millingmachine is way out of my budget. Also, any tips on using steel planing forms vs. hard maple. Am I goingto shread my new hock blade everytime I use my steel forms? Thanks in advance for the help. JFG irish-george wrote: I'll second Art's request (provided Sean is willing)! George -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:31 AMSubject: RE: Splitting mayhem Sean's a list member and this is really his technique.I feel uncomfortable writing it up and posting itwithout his OK. Sean, sorry to put you in the hot seat (that damnReply to All button...). Please be patient, everyone.If Sean gives me the OK, I'll post it. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Art PortSent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Richard,That may have been intended foroff-list transmission, but there areplenty of us who'd like to hear his advice.Unless it's copy-righted *G*.Art from moran@lincoln.midcoast.com Sat Jul 3 03:50:09 1999 Sat, 3 Jul 1999 04:55:22 -0400 , "Rodmakers" Subject: Re: Splitting mayhem I've tried several different methods of splitting over the years and mademyshare of scraps. I started out with Garrison's method and couldn't get thatto work very well. The method I stumbled on uses a woodworking visewith acentral screw and 2 guide rods on either side of the screw. These 3 piecesof metal form the "floor" of the vise. Split the culm in 1/2 &1/4 inroutine fashion. Knock out the dams and rough file the nodes. Lay thestrip flat in the vise sitting it on the "floor" of the vise. The firstnode should be in the vise leaving about a foot of strip sticking outtowards you. Scoot down like a baseball catcher to view the strip end on.Place a heavy knife dead center on the end of the strip and perpendicularto the enamel. Give it a tap with a wooden mallet to start the split for afew inches. Remove the knife. Grab the 2 sides of the strip in left andright hands and pull evenly. The strip should split to the first node.Loosen the vise and slide the strip to the next node and continue splittingin this fashion. Watch the width of both sides carefully and also watchforthe small fibers of bamboo running betweeen the strips which indicatesomewalking. If the strip starts to wander pullon the fat side until it comesback to midline. Holding the strip in the vise does a couple of importantthings for you. First it aloows you to control the split and go from nodeto node which was my original thought. More importantly it allows bothhands to be free and apply pressure to each strip as needed and it holdsthestrip still so you can apply independent pressure to one side if needed. Ithink it's easier to keep splitting in halfs but you can split into 1/3's inyou pay attention to detail. Once you get the hang of it you can leave thevise a half turn shy of tight and just keep sliding the strip down as yougo. I hope this makes sense--it's a bit long winded. Please contact mewith any questions. I hope this helps so of you with splitting problems.Give it a try I think you'll like it. Gotta go ---sun is up and thestripers will be hitting. Sean Moran----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Splitting mayhem I'll second Art's request (provided Sean is willing)! George -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:31 AMSubject: RE: Splitting mayhem Sean's a list member and this is really his technique.I feel uncomfortable writing it up and posting itwithout his OK. Sean, sorry to put you in the hot seat (that damnReply to All button...). Please be patient, everyone.If Sean gives me the OK, I'll post it. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Art PortSent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Richard,That may have been intended foroff-list transmission, but there areplenty of us who'd like to hear his advice.Unless it's copy-righted *G*.Art from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jul 3 08:03:46 1999 Subject: Re: lathe info boundary="------------8249EDE057AE8D6FB57A369F" --------------8249EDE057AE8D6FB57A369F These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them is verylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength. A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used forrodmaking and building rod making equipment.Terry leroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline thatwill be history also.We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance butwish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish better andcut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, butcouldn't get dialed in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throwin some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if youbuy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if youhave other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected viapocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on theweb to look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Minilathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a good place tostart.Leroy........ --------------8249EDE057AE8D6FB57A369F These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them is verylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength.A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used for rodmaking andbuildingrod making equipment.Terryleroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owneda Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline that will be historyalso.Wefelt that the Taig cut closer tolerance but wish it had a power on thelead screw so one could finish better and cut threads.Sherlineis a good product, lots of accessories, but couldn't get dialed in to cutthe tolerances to make ferrules. Throw in some operatorerror.Havelearned a good lesson from this, if you buy a new or used machine you aregoing to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplacedit, same with Sherline.Feelfree to contact me of list if you have other comments orquestions.Usualdisclaimer not connected via pocket book to eithermanufacture.Thereare some good places on the web to look for information: Sherline, Taig,and Harbor Freights Mini lathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a goodplace to start.Leroy........ --------------8249EDE057AE8D6FB57A369F-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Jul 3 08:12:43 1999 Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:12:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Payne boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEC534.0E47A460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEC534.0E47A460 the Parker, though the Parker had previously been owned by Remington =(but even though most parts were interchangeable with the originals, =Winchester identified their gun as a "reproduction." Hunter Arms bought =L.C. Smith, Ithaca bought Lefever, Savage bought Fox (now owned by =Connecticut Shotguns and NOT considered to be a reproduction), and on, = In England, the tangle of who owns (or has owned) which gun company at =which point in history is a labyrinth of Olympic proportions. And, =within this maze (like circus performers on amphetamines), the famous =makers and production managers--themselves, seldom owners--movedabout =regularly, trading either on their own reputation, or that of the =company they just left. Nevertheless, right up through the mid =twentieth century, the names of the dozens upon dozens of famous English=guns continued on, though their quality sometimes rose and sometimes and=fell. Ford owns part of Mazda; Mazda also owns part of Ford; Ford also owns =Volvo; Chrysler owns parts of both Mitsubishi and Daimler-Benz. North =American Van Lines owns Coca-Cola (or is it the other way around?) So =what? It's true that there is, apparently, no continuity either of family or =apprentice in the current Payne venture, and that the legal name, the =product line, the "look," and the "Payne mystique" only have been = But who is to say that the rod itself is not an "authentic" Payne? The =new rods are certainly another generation, but must it be the case that =Jim Payne himself is the only one "allowed" to have make a "real" Payne =rod? The quality of these new Payne rods is for any individual to =judge, but my guess is that they are neither better nor worse than the =best of what is currently being built (and, thanks to modern materials =and techniques, probably even better than the original Payne). Now, as to the price-tag for the new Paynes... . Well, now, that's =another matter. If you think you're getting demonstrably the best rod =in the word, and you don't mind shelling out $2,200 for that privilege, =then there you go... . In this world there are also some guys who'll =gladly fork over $600 for a graphite rod. Go figure! cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Payne How right you are! First it was about Ed Payne, then Jim Payne...I =wouldhave accepted Walt Carpenter as owner of Payne (as he apprenticed =there).To me, it all has to do with continuity and paying one's dues. I =thinkanyone who worked side-by-side for a minimum of 6 or 7 years with =Jim wouldhave been accepted. Dave H is quite removed from Jim Payne...didn't =atleast Gladding, Bacon, and Boulding own the company between Jim P =and DaveH? George Bourke -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 10:26 AMSubject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last weeks =auction?What about all theElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Payne crap. It =appearsto be fraudulentto me because a Payne rod is about the man and the Payne rod died =withPayne.Terry Randy Brewer wrote: Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then I can put =out a newBeatles album. =3D:-0 -----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL [SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu]Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are $2100 to =$2200 sothey must be about the best available.http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEC534.0E47A460 In = side-by-side shotguns, companies have been bought, = sold = the = the Parker had previously been owned by Remington (but even though most= were interchangeable with the originals, Winchester identified their gun = Lefever, Savage bought Fox (now owned by Connecticut Shotguns and NOT = England, the tangle of who owns (or has owned) which gun = maze (like circus performers on amphetamines), the famous makers and = managers--themselves, seldom owners--moved about regularly, trading = right up through the mid twentieth century, the names of the dozens upon= of famous English guns continued on, though their quality sometimes rose= sometimes and fell. Ford owns part of= also owns part of Ford; Ford also owns Volvo; Chrysler owns parts of = As to the Paynerods = It's true thatthere = apparently, no continuity either of family or apprentice in the current = venture, and that the legal name, the product line, the = the "Payne mystique" only have been purchased by the But who is to say that the rod itself is= generation, but must it be the case that Jim Payne himself is the only = "allowed" to have make a "real" Payne The quality of these new Payne rods is for any = judge, but my guess is that they are neither better nor worse than the = what is currently being built (and, thanks to modern materials and = probably even better than the original Payne). Now, as to the = you're getting demonstrably the best rod in the word, and you don't mind = world there are also some guys who'll gladly fork over $600 for a = Bill -----Original = irish-george <irish-george@worldnet.att.n= hexagon@odyssee.net = brewer@teleport.com RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu=<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, July 02, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Re: =Payne wouldhave accepted Walt Carpenter as owner of Payne (as he = = from Jim Payne...didn't atleast Gladding, Bacon, and Boulding = Bourke-----Original Message-----From: TERENCEACKLAND = brewer@teleport.com RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, July 02, 1999 10:26 AMSubject: Re: = look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last Then I can put out a newBeatles ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BEC534.0E47A460-- from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Sat Jul 3 08:19:52 1999 , ,"Rodmakers" Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Knowing that Sean Moran would gladly share histechnique, I had written up my take on how hedescribed it. So, to paraphrase the master.... Forget the knife in the vise. In fact, you only needthe knife to start the split. The splitting is donewith your bare hands (actually, wear gloves. I didn'tthe other night and my hands are sliced up today.) ALL SPLITS ARE IN HALVES, NEVER THIRDS. 1. split the culm in half and then quarters as youusually do.2. knock out the damns.3. mount a strip into your workbench's woodworkingvise with about a foot sticking out the end. If youdon't have a woodworking vise, you'll need to rigsomething up, perhaps with a small bench vise. Youwant to have a way to hold the strip, enamel side up,in place so that both your hands are free.4. using a knife, start a split exactly in the centerand perfectly perpendicular to the strip.5. once the strip is a few inches down the strip (infact, I needed to get the split past the first node),put aside the knife and continue the split by pullingthe two sides of the culm away from each other usingyour hands.6. now here's the really neat part: if you pull apartwith equal force using both hands, the split willlikely travel down the middle. If it does begin towander: hold the smaller strip facing straight out(parrallel to the jaws of the vise) and bend only thefatter part away from the split. The split willimmediately travel back down the middle.7. Split halves into halves, etc. For tip strips, Ihad no problem getting down to .20 ". In fact, youcould easily go smaller if you want. The problem willnot be the splitting, it will be having enough left ofthe strips to work with! Richard -----Original Message-----From: Karen and Sean Moran Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 4:46 AM richard.nantel@videotron.ca;anglport@con2.com; RodmakersSubject: Re: Splitting mayhem I've tried several different methods ofsplitting over the years and made myshare of scraps. I started out withGarrison's method and couldn't get thatto work very well. The method I stumbledon uses a woodworking vise with acentral screw and 2 guide rods on eitherside of the screw. These 3 piecesof metal form the "floor" of the vise.Split the culm in 1/2 &1/4 inroutine fashion. Knock out the dams andrough file the nodes. Lay thestrip flat in the vise sitting it on the"floor" of the vise. The firstnode should be in the vise leaving about afoot of strip sticking outtowards you. Scoot down like a baseballcatcher to view the strip end on.Place a heavy knife dead center on the endof the strip and perpendicularto the enamel. Give it a tap with a woodenmallet to start the split for afew inches. Remove the knife. Grab the 2sides of the strip in left andright hands and pull evenly. The stripshould split to the first node.Loosen the vise and slide the strip to thenext node and continue splittingin this fashion. Watch the width of bothsides carefully and also watch forthe small fibers of bamboo running betweeenthe strips which indicate somewalking. If the strip starts to wanderpullon the fat side until it comesback to midline. Holding the strip in thevise does a couple of importantthings for you. First it aloows you tocontrol the split and go from nodeto node which was my original thought.More importantly it allows bothhands to be free and apply pressure to eachstrip as needed and it holds thestrip still so you can apply independentpressure to one side if needed. Ithink it's easier to keep splitting inhalfs but you can split into 1/3's inyou pay attention to detail. Once you getthe hang of it you can leave thevise a half turn shy of tight and just keepsliding the strip down as yougo. I hope this makes sense--it's a bitlong winded. Please contact mewith any questions. I hope this helps soof you with splitting problems.Give it a try I think you'll like it.Gotta go ---sun is up and thestripers will be hitting. Sean Moran----- Original Message -----From: irish-george ; Rodmakers Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:58 AMSubject: Re: Splitting mayhem I'll second Art's request (provided Seanis willing)! George -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel ; Rodmakers Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:31 AMSubject: RE: Splitting mayhem Sean's a list member and this is reallyhis technique.I feel uncomfortable writing it up and posting itwithout his OK. Sean, sorry to put you in the hot seat (that damnReply to All button...). Please bepatient, everyone.If Sean gives me the OK, I'll post it. Richard -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Behalf Of Art PortSent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:08 AM Subject: RE: Splitting mayhem Richard,That may have been intended foroff-list transmission, but there areplenty of us who'd like to hear his advice.Unless it's copy-righted *G*.Art from 76250.1771@compuserve.com Sat Jul 3 09:11:14 1999 Subject: RE:Question Art,Geo. Mauer's book list's the Payne 102 as having a swell the final 8". Myvery limited experience with Payne suggests that tapers like that wouldnotbe unknown.The Payne 95 taper I have goes from .201@25" to .240@28" ona36" butt section. The Planing Form #57 has a taper for a Payne 198 with aswelled butt, part of which looks like it would be under cork. I've neverseen a Payne with the "short"(5"+/-) cork grip you'll find on leonards etc.I've also never seen a real 102 but would guess that the swell would beunder the normal Payne grip. Dennis from hiltonl@benzie.com Sat Jul 3 09:22:05 1999 (SMTPD32-4.07) id AD05412400E4; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 10:24:05 EST Subject: Re:Splitting mayhem Richard,I'm with you all the way on this one.I split out my culm past the first dam using a knife, then splitfreehand the rest of the way. I'll bet using a vice is easier on theforearms.The only thing that I would add is that, as with all other aspects ofrod building, take your time.Larry Hilton from jczimny@dol.net Sat Jul 3 09:56:22 1999 0400 "leroyt@involved.com"Cc: "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: lathe info I might add to this. A larger lathe is easier to resell. If you buy retail now,youshould be able to get all your money out of it in 5 years.John Z -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: lathe info These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them is verylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength. A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used forrodmaking and building rod making equipment.Terry leroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline thatwill be history also.We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance butwish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish better andcut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, butcouldn't get dialed in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throwin some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if youbuy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if youhave other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected viapocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on theweb to look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Minilathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a good place tostart.Leroy........ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sat Jul 3 11:17:22 1999 JAA02840; (5.5.2448.0) "'jczimny@dol.net'" Subject: RE: lathe info If you check at machine shops you'll be amazed at how many that haveswitched to NCequipment that have old south bend lathes sitting around in the back roomsnot beingused that can be had for pennies on the dollar. I got one for $250 that wasa 3 footsouthbend with two three jaw chucks, 1 four jaw chuck, a set of colletsand draw bar andall the change gears. The guy was glad to get rid of it cause it was justsitting aroundcollecting dust and he told me to make him a offer. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-237-1460Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: J. C. Zimny[SMTP:jczimny@dol.net] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 7:58 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: lathe info I might add to this. A larger lathe is easier to resell. If you buy retailnow, youshould be able to get all your money out of it in 5 years.John Z -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 9:07 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: lathe info These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them is verylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength. A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used forrodmaking and building rod making equipment.Terry leroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline thatwill be history also.We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance butwish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish better andcut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, butcouldn't get dialed in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throwin some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if youbuy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if youhave other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected viapocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on theweb to look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Minilathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a good place tostart.Leroy........ from stpete@netten.net Sat Jul 3 13:53:57 1999 Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:54:49 -0500 "leroyt@involved.com" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: lathe info John and Terry, What you say is most certainly true and has merit. However, I opted tobuy an Asian made 7x10 lathe. This lathe is not precise out of the box,but can be made more precise with some minor effort. The small size haslimitations on turning grips as well as other things not rod related,BUT... it runs on normal household 110v currents at 15 to 20 ampcircuits and is easily moved at about 60 lbs. I looked at other lathes, but at 300 to 1200 lbs I felt that haulingthem up to my attic workshop would be difficult if not down rightimpossible. In addition, if I sprung for the cost of the lathe, I'dalso have to spring for a dedicated circuit of 220v single phase or evenas much as 220v 3 phase. That might involve an entire new service to my50 year old house! I wish I had a nice workshop with all the space, electricity and meansto mount heavy equipment, but this is a hobby and I do not have theseluxuries (necessities to some I suppose). For the rest of us, we buywhat works out best for us and make do. Besides, the $2000-5000investment would buy a lot of reelseats and ferrules. Richard the Poor J. C. Zimny wrote: I might add to this. A larger lathe is easier to resell. If you buy retailnow, youshould be able to get all your money out of it in 5 years.John Z -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 9:07 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: lathe info These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them is verylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength. A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used forrodmaking and building rod making equipment.Terry leroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherline thatwill be history also.We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance butwish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish better andcut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, butcouldn't get dialed in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throwin some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if youbuy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if youhave other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected viapocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on theweb to look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Minilathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a good place tostart.Leroy........ from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Jul 3 19:59:45 1999 Subject: Wanye's hexrod program. 7232E85A70C79334DC2E00E9" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 7232E85A70C79334DC2E00E9 Can someone tell me how to find Wayne's HexrodProgram. It is not at his FTP site.Thanks,Flytyr Tony --------------7232E85A70C79334DC2E00E9 begin: vcardfn: Tony n: ;Tony email;internet: FlyTyr@southshore.com version: 2.1end: vcard --------------7232E85A70C79334DC2E00E9-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Jul 3 20:10:02 1999 Subject: Re: Question RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and they still carry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new Paynes or Leonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past makers up as gods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I have seen Kushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are doing a better job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods and youwill see some very fine workmanship that is better than some the "MASTERS". My $.02 worth.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jul 3 21:42:20 1999 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: lathe info Rick,there are lathes that fit in between the toys and the heavier industrial models.I have an 10x18 made in Taiwan lathe. I purchased it new about 14 yearsago and I amtotally pleased with it. I make ferrules, reel seats andthreaded tube caps on it, plus making all my own special equipment. Thechuck is veryaccurate, in fact so accurate I never use the collets that Ipurchased as an extra. The lathe weights about 90 kg and is justmanageable to get downthe basement in one piece with some help.I have a larger lathe also, which I purchased used in pieces making it easyto to getdown the stairs but required some setting up. I have neverused it but for skimming my discs about 5 years ago.I think a lathe is so important to rodmaking if you want to take itseriously thatgetting the correct type from the start makes it easier and worksout cheaper.Terry Rick Crenshaw wrote: John and Terry, What you say is most certainly true and has merit. However, I opted tobuy an Asian made 7x10 lathe. This lathe is not precise out of the box,but can be made more precise with some minor effort. The small sizehaslimitations on turning grips as well as other things not rod related,BUT... it runs on normal household 110v currents at 15 to 20 ampcircuits and is easily moved at about 60 lbs. I looked at other lathes, but at 300 to 1200 lbs I felt that haulingthem up to my attic workshop would be difficult if not down rightimpossible. In addition, if I sprung for the cost of the lathe, I'dalso have to spring for a dedicated circuit of 220v single phase or evenas much as 220v 3 phase. That might involve an entire new service tomy50 year old house! I wish I had a nice workshop with all the space, electricity and meansto mount heavy equipment, but this is a hobby and I do not have theseluxuries (necessities to some I suppose). For the rest of us, we buywhat works out best for us and make do. Besides, the $2000-5000investment would buy a lot of reelseats and ferrules. Richard the Poor J. C. Zimny wrote: I might add to this. A larger lathe is easier to resell. If you buy retailnow, youshould be able to get all your money out of it in 5 years.John Z -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 9:07 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: lathe info These lathes are only "toys" and what you can accomplish on them isverylimited indeed.I would recommend to anyone to get something with a little morestrength. A lathe is so useful and and will not just be used forrodmaking and building rod making equipment.Terry leroy teeple wrote: Listmembers,Owned a Taig lathe and am presently using a Sherlinethatwill be history also.We felt that the Taig cut closer tolerance butwish it had a power on the lead screw so one could finish better andcut threads.Sherline is a good product, lots of accessories, butcouldn't get dialed in to cut the tolerances to make ferrules. Throwin some operator error.Have learned a good lesson from this, if youbuy a new or used machine you are going to have to tweak it.Bothcompanies gave good service. Had a part problem with the Taig theyreplaced it, same with Sherline.Feel free to contact me of list if youhave other comments or questions.Usual disclaimer not connected viapocket book to either manufacture.There are some good places on theweb to look for information: Sherline, Taig, and Harbor Freights Minilathe have user groups, Varmint Al's is a good place tostart.Leroy........ from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jul 3 22:06:02 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Question Bret,the name Payne must be worth something for a bunch of guys to want topurchaseit. Knowing Bill Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by today's rodmakers, andtheyare doing it under their own name, not riding on the backs of others. Itmust bemore satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate recognition without doingthework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing that market which isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is between the new Payne and theirconscience.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and theystillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past makers upasgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods and youwillsee some very fine workmanship that is better than some the"MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret from cattanac@wmis.net Sat Jul 3 22:13:26 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA17228; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:13:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Wanye's hexrod program. Tony -I have changed locations - I wanted to be able to host a discussion weband so I needed to register for a domain - the new site is:www.wcattanachrodco.com - while you're there you might look around atthemany areas - I am trying to add new phots to some areas every week - Itislooking like several of us will be venturing down your way for SRG II thisfall - hope to see you then -----Original Message----- Subject: Wanye's hexrod program. Can someone tell me how to find Wayne's HexrodProgram. It is not at his FTP site.Thanks,Flytyr Tony from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Jul 3 22:24:41 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Payne boundary="------------ABC81D2259875195B7467839" --------------ABC81D2259875195B7467839 Bill,sorry, I know nothing about guns and I have never really had anyinterest in them.They are just engineering and all gun manufacturer could easilyduplicate each others workYou cannot make a Payne rod unless you know exactly how the cane wasprocessed on the originals. Payne for sure had an impregnationtechnique, as did all professional rod makers, and unless you canduplicate this you are just kidding yourself and cheating yourcustomers.Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: In the world of side-by-side shotguns, companies have beenbought,sold and merged almost endlessly. Winchester undertook toreplicatethe Parker, though the Parker had previously been owned byRemington (but even though most parts were interchangeable with theoriginals, Winchester identified their gun as a "reproduction."Hunter Arms bought L.C. Smith, Ithaca bought Lefever, Savage boughtFox (now owned by Connecticut Shotguns and NOT considered to be areproduction), and on, and on. In England, the tangle of who owns (orhas owned) which gun company at which point in history is a labyrinthof Olympic proportions. And, within this maze (like circus performerson amphetamines), the famous makers and productionmanagers-- themselves, seldom owners--moved about regularly, tradingeither on their own reputation, or that of the company they justleft. Nevertheless, right up through the mid twentieth century, thenames of the dozens upon dozens of famous English guns continued on,though their quality sometimes rose and sometimes and fell. Ford ownspart of Mazda; Mazda also owns part of Ford; Ford also owns Volvo;Chrysler owns parts of both Mitsubishi and Daimler- Benz. NorthAmerican Van Lines owns Coca-Cola (or is it the other way around?) Sowhat? As to the Payne rods now being built, the situation is nodifferent.It's true that there is, apparently, no continuity either offamily or apprentice in the current Payne venture, and that the legalname, the product line, the "look," and the "Payne mystique" only havebeen purchased by the present owners. But who is to say that the roditself is not an "authentic" Payne? The new rods are certainlyanother generation, but must it be the case that Jim Payne himself isthe only one "allowed" to have make a "real" Payne rod? The qualityof these new Payne rods is for any individual to judge, but my guessis that they are neither better nor worse than the best of what iscurrently being built (and, thanks to modern materials and techniques,probably even better than the original Payne). Now, as to theprice-tag for the new Paynes... . Well, now, that's another matter.If you think you're getting demonstrably the best rod in the word, andyou don't mind shelling out $2,200 for that privilege, then there yougo... . In this world there are also some guys who'll gladly forkover $600 for a graphite rod. Go figure! cheers, Bill -----OriginalMessage-----From: irish-george Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Re: Payne How right you are! First it was about Ed Payne, then JimPayne...I wouldhave accepted Walt Carpenter as owner of Payne (as heapprenticed there).To me, it all has to do with continuity and paying one'sdues. I thinkanyone who worked side-by-side for a minimum of 6 or 7 yearswith Jim wouldhave been accepted. Dave H is quite removed from JimPayne...didn't atleast Gladding, Bacon, and Boulding own the company betweenJim P and DaveH? George Bourke -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 10:26 AMSubject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after lastweeks auction?What about all theElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Paynecrap. It appearsto be fraudulentto me because a Payne rod is about the man and the Paynerod died withPayne.Terry Randy Brewer wrote: Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then Ican put out a newBeatles album. =:-0 -----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL[SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu]Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Payne Website Here is the website for those interested. The rods are$2100 to $2200 sothey must be about the best available.http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu --------------ABC81D2259875195B7467839 Bill,sorry, I know nothing about guns and I have never really had anyinterestin them.They are just engineering and all gun manufacturer could easilyduplicateeach others workYou cannot make a Payne rod unless you know exactly how the canewasprocessed on the originals. Payne for sure had an impregnation technique,as did all professional rod makers, and unless you can duplicate this youare just kidding yourself and cheating your customers.Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: the world of side-by-side shotguns, companies have beenbought,sold replicatetheParker, though the Parker had previously been owned by Remington (buteventhough most parts were interchangeable with the originals, Winchester bought Lefever, Savage bought Fox (now owned by Connecticut ShotgunsandNOT considered to be a reproduction), and on, and England, the tangle of who owns (or hasowned)which gun company at which point in history is a labyrinth of Olympic And, within this maze (like circus performers on amphetamines), thefamousmakers and production managers--themselves, seldom owners-- movedaboutregularly, trading either on their own reputation, or that of the company century, the names of the dozens upon dozens of famous English gunscontinuedon, though their quality sometimes rose and sometimes and owns part of Mazda; Mazda also owns part of Ford; Ford also owns Volvo; American to the Payne rods now being built, the situation is nodifferent.It'strue that there is, apparently, no continuity either of family or apprenticein the current Payne venture, and that the legal name, the product line,the "look," and the "Payne mystique" only have been purchased by thepresent new rods are certainly another generation, but must it be the case thatJim Payne himself is the only one "allowed" to have make a "real" Payne judge, but my guess is that they are neither better nor worse than thebest of what is currently being built (and, thanks to modern materialsand techniques, probably even better than the original the word, and you don't mind shelling out $2,200 for that privilege, then ---OriginalMessage-----From: irish-george <irish-george@worldnet.att.net> <hexagon@odyssee.net>; brewer@teleport.com<brewer@teleport.com>Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Friday, July 02, 199911:34 PMSubject: Re:Payne How have accepted Walt Carpenter as owner of Payne (as he apprenticedthere). I thinkanyone who worked side-by-side for a minimum of 6 or 7 years withJimwould Payne...didn'tatleast Gladding, Bacon, and Boulding own the company between Jim PandDaveH?George Bourke-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND <hexagon@odyssee.net> <brewer@teleport.com>Cc: RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 10:26 AMSubject: Re: Payne Can we look forward to 150 new "Eric Clapton's" after last weeksauction?What about all theElvis's squeezed into their sequined jump suites.Seriously, I cannot see the public falling for this Payne crap. Itappearsto be fraudulent died withPayne.Terry Randy Brewer wrote: Maybe I'll buy one of John Lennon's old guitars. Then I can putout a newBeatles album. =:-0 -----Original Message----- Website to $2200 sothey must be about the best available. http://www.efpayne.com/payne/index.htm Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu --------------ABC81D2259875195B7467839-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sat Jul 3 23:16:25 1999 Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:09:46 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) "leroyt@involved.com" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: lathe info I find myself both agreeing & disagreeing with the comments re. lathes.Reason being I have a Sherline and moved up? to a Chineese lathe. The Sherline is a very well made and accurate little machine which probdosn't deserve to be called a toy but it doeshave a problem with vibrationwhich causes inaccuracy however if the cutters are sharp and you takeyourtime you can make ferrules. I've made plenty from solid rod. You can makereel seats but again you need to be patient and I find the threadingattachment to be a bit micky mouse and fidly. The milling attachment isgood for light work.If you are stuck for space like you live in an appartment & don't havespace it's a good option.BUT if you can squeeze in a lathe of the size Terry mentions ie. can behandled by 1 person without fear of rupture or 2 more sensible peopleyou'll be much better off and happier.I bought a Chineese lathe over a Tiawanees one as I know the owner of theplace I bought it and he allowd me some time messing with it beforebuying and I found the chuck (both 3 & 4 jaw) and threading arrangement tobe amazingly accurate though I must say the Chinees models are ROUGH ASGUTSand you get the distint feeling all the screws and nuts etc used toassemble them are what ever the people find lying about on the factoryfloor or removed from the boss's office furniture or something with amixture of phillips and flat screws and nuts and bols mixed with selftappers. I also found an interesting assortment of bits and pieces thatcame in a box supposedly for the lathe but I'm yet to discover the purposeof. It all came in what I'm sure is pigs fat to prevent rust that tooksome time to clean off. Finish is some what low on the list of prioritys in a Chineese lathe factory but it does a great job where it counts.The thing is though I'm 100% happy with the results from this lathe andglad I bought it. Tony On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Rick,there are lathes that fit in between the toys and the heavier industrial models.I have an 10x18 made in Taiwan lathe. I purchased it new about 14 yearsago and I amtotally pleased with it. I make ferrules, reel seats andthreaded tube caps on it, plus making all my own special equipment. Thechuck is veryaccurate, in fact so accurate I never use the collets that Ipurchased as an extra. The lathe weights about 90 kg and is justmanageable to getdown the basement in one piece with some help.I have a larger lathe also, which I purchased used in pieces making iteasy to to getdown the stairs but required some setting up. I have neverused it but for skimming my discs about 5 years ago.I think a lathe is so important to rodmaking if you want to take itseriously thatgetting the correct type from the start makes it easier and worksout cheaper.Terry /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Jul 4 07:27:00 1999 Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:26:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Question boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BEC5F6.CA18C440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BEC5F6.CA18C440 But why is it "unprincipled" to buy a well-known company, when one has =the intention to revive, replicate, and thereby to continue a fine =tradition? I guess I just don't understand the problem here. Of course =this is a commercial venture, and of course the new company is on Payne's reputation, but why denigrate the principles of the present =owners on account of that, when a high quality product and corporate = Certainly Jim Payne built the reputation of his product, but may nobody =else continue it without being thought "unprincipled?" Jim Payne was =among the finest rod makers, but he was only a man, and his product was =only a fly rod for sale--even in mass, to Abercrombie-Fitch. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: MICK@welfen-netz.com ;anglport@con2.com =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:11 PMSubject: Re: Question Bret,the name Payne must be worth something for a bunch of guys to want =to purchaseit. Knowing Bill Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by today's rodmakers, =and theyare doing it under their own name, not riding on the backs of =others. It must bemore satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate recognition without =doing thework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing that market which isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is between the new Payne and =theirconscience.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and =they stillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new =Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past =makers up asgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I have =seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are =doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods =and you willsee some very fine workmanship that is better than some the ="MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BEC5F6.CA18C440 But = "unprincipled" to buy a well-known company, when one intention to revive, replicate, and thereby to continue a fine = on = reputation, but why denigrate the principles of the present owners on = that, when a high quality product and = built the reputation of his product, but may nobody else continue= makers, but he was only a man, and his product was only a fly rod for = in mass, to Abercrombie-Fitch. Bill -----Original = Grhghlndr@aol.com = =MICK@welfen-netz.com<MICK@welfen- <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= QuestionBret,the name Payne must be worth= give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by = rodmakers, and theyare doing it under their own name, not riding = backs of others. It must bemore satisfying to see your own name = product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate = without doing thework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The= rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing = market which isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but = between the new Payne and =theirconscience.TerryGrhghlndr@aol.com = Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods and you = Bret ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BEC5F6.CA18C440-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Jul 4 08:53:46 1999 Subject: Re: Question RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Bill, Terry et al,Bill has a very valid point here Terry and I think on this note we should move on to more pressing matters. I believe everyone has an opinion onthis and no matter what we all think I hope that they do well in their ventureand that they try and keep the fine product that was originally started. It is a shame to see any of the old names lost because of death of the original owner. Heck boys if Ford would have shut down because of Henry's demisewe all could well be driving Kowalski's now.Bret from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Sun Jul 4 09:13:15 1999 HAA00644 (5.5.2448.0) The company I work for is sending me to Madrid Spain for a couple ofweeks and seeing'show thats just a hop skip and a jump away from Portugal I was wonderingif anybody knowsof some one to get a hold of for cork. I was thinking that maybe some kindof mass buycould be done if some kind of source of good cork could be located. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-237-1460Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jul 4 09:19:53 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id ADE1893012C; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:21:21 EDT george@worldnet.att.net,RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Payne Terry,Several points I have a problem with here:1/ "All professional rodmakers had an impregnation process". Thisis much like the luthiers who say they cannot reproduce the sound of aStrad, so Strad must have had an impregnation process (waterglass,anyone?). It doesn't fly in those circles, why should it here? I knowthat the Edwards' (Bill, Sr., Bill, Jr., and Gene) treatment of the culmwas to take it off the truck and work it; and, F.E. Thomas had noprocedure for impregnating cane that showed up in the form of equiprmentor records. If any rodmaker of stature had a "secret" impregnationtechnique, they would use that in marketing their product... so, who arethe "All"? You're using the "Invisible Cat" argument (there is aninvisible cat on that chair, the fact that you can't see it proves it'sexistence); this is much like me saying "Terry Ackland is a latenthomosexual."... you can't disprove it, the fact that there are no overtsigns is because it is latent. Let's use more mature arguments.2/ Any rodmaker who is selling a product that is appreciated forits intrinsic worth (casting, fish-fighting ability, and secondarily,beauty) cannot be accused of cheating a customer. If Payne doesn'tadvertize that they are following all the processes (one of which Idoubt was impregnation) of Jim Payne, then no-one is mislead.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: You cannot make a Payne rod unless you know exactly how the cane wasprocessed on the originals. Payne for sure had an impregnationtechnique, as did all professional rod makers, and unless you canduplicate this you are just kidding yourself and cheating yourcustomers. from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jul 4 18:46:47 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Question boundary="------------EA517C0F2A5F3D416B5684C0" --------------EA517C0F2A5F3D416B5684C0 Bill,a well known company was not purchased, the company had not existed for30 years. The right to use the name Payne is all that was purchased.We will have to see what happens and if the public will accept a "new"Payne then I am sure there will be other resurrections.The market is saturated with high end cane, so I guess a company calledPayne endorses that fact.I am all threaded out, no more please. Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: But why is it "unprincipled" to buy a well-known company, when onehas the intention to revive, replicate, and thereby to continue afine tradition? I guess I just don't understand the problem here. Ofcourse this is a commercial venture, and of course the new company istradingon Payne's reputation, but why denigrate the principles of thepresent owners on account of that, when a high quality product andcorporate integrity are the results? Certainly Jim Payne built thereputation of his product, but may nobody else continue it withoutbeing thought "unprincipled?" Jim Payne was among the finest rodmakers, but he was only a man, and his product was only a fly rod forsale--even in mass, to Abercrombie-Fitch. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: MICK@welfen-netz.com ;anglport@con2.com ;RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:11 PMSubject: Re: QuestionBret,the name Payne must be worth something for a bunch of guysto want to purchaseit. Knowing Bill Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by today'srodmakers, and theyare doing it under their own name, not riding on the backsof others. It must bemore satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate recognitionwithout doing thework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing that marketwhich isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is between the newPayne and theirconscience.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands tooand they stillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of thenew Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of thesepast makers up asgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) andI have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makerswho are doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagnersrods and you willsee some very fine workmanship that is better than somethe "MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret --------------EA517C0F2A5F3D416B5684C0 Bill,a well known company was not purchased, the company had not existed We will have to see what happens and if the public will accept a "new"Payne then I am sure there will be other resurrections.The market is saturated with high end cane, so I guess a companycalledPayne endorses that fact.I am all threaded out, no more please. TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: the intention to revive, replicate, and thereby to continue a fine is a commercial venture, and of course the new company istradingonPayne's reputation, but why denigrate the principles of the present ownerson account of that, whena high quality product and corporate integrity are the Jim Payne built the reputation of his product, but may nobody elsecontinue finest rod makers, but he was only a man, and his product was only a flyrod for sale--even in mass, to Abercrombie- -----OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <Grhghlndr@aol.com>Cc: MICK@welfen-netz.com<MICK@welfen- netz.com>;anglport@con2.com<anglport@con2.com>; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Saturday, July 03, 19998:11 PMSubject: Re:Question the name Payne must be worth something for a bunch of guys to wantto purchaseit. Knowing Bill Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by today's rodmakers,and theyare doing it under their own name, not riding on the backs of others.It must bemore satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate recognition withoutdoing thework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing that market which isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is between the new Payne andtheirconscience.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and theystill Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past makersup as have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who aredoing a and you will $.02 worth.Bret --------------EA517C0F2A5F3D416B5684C0-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Jul 4 19:43:33 1999 george@worldnet.att.net,RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Payne Reed,I have an old Field and Stream magazine with a great article on cane rods.The writer visited the Payne shop and described various steps in buildinga fly rod. He also mentioned that he was not allowed to go into certainareas such as the milling and heat treatment departments and that allrodmakers had their secret processes.This article was heavily plagiarized in Martin Keane's book.I have an old rod from the 50s that I stripped down to the bare wood 17years ago and have stored it in my basement. I can pick the tip section upand sight down it and tweak it and and it returns immediately to itsoriginal position. This is a rod that has no visual finish on it. Try doingthat with a rod made the Garrison way, even with varnish on it!I just happen to believe that cane rods need to impregnated.You can prove quite easily if I am a latent homosexual and at the sametimediscover whether you like hospital food.When I attended gathering in PA a couple of years ago I arranged to meet afly fisherman who took me to a local stretch of stream (Marinarosomething)Anyway, fishing was too difficult for me, the fish can see you a mile off.We went for a meal and a few drinks and stood by our cars talking thatnightand he mentioned that he was tired and did not look forward to the 11/2 hrdrive home. I said to him matter of factly, "You could stay the night in myroom, but the problem is there is only one bed"The guy took of like a shot, and I have never heard of him since.It only dawned on me what I had said on the drive home the next morning. Ihad to grin, I tried not to imagine if he took the offer up!Terry xxxx Reed Curry wrote: Terry,Several points I have a problem with here:1/ "All professional rodmakers had an impregnation process". Thisis much like the luthiers who say they cannot reproduce the sound of aStrad, so Strad must have had an impregnation process (waterglass,anyone?). It doesn't fly in those circles, why should it here? I knowthat the Edwards' (Bill, Sr., Bill, Jr., and Gene) treatment of the culmwas to take it off the truck and work it; and, F.E. Thomas had noprocedure for impregnating cane that showed up in the form ofequiprmentor records. If any rodmaker of stature had a "secret" impregnationtechnique, they would use that in marketing their product... so, who arethe "All"? You're using the "Invisible Cat" argument (there is aninvisible cat on that chair, the fact that you can't see it proves it'sexistence); this is much like me saying "Terry Ackland is a latenthomosexual."... you can't disprove it, the fact that there are no overtsigns is because it is latent. Let's use more mature arguments.2/ Any rodmaker who is selling a product that is appreciated forits intrinsic worth (casting, fish-fighting ability, and secondarily,beauty) cannot be accused of cheating a customer. If Payne doesn'tadvertize that they are following all the processes (one of which Idoubt was impregnation) of Jim Payne, then no-one is mislead.Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: You cannot make a Payne rod unless you know exactly how the cane wasprocessed on the originals. Payne for sure had an impregnationtechnique, as did all professional rod makers, and unless you canduplicate this you are just kidding yourself and cheating yourcustomers. from stealth@direct.ca Sun Jul 4 20:15:01 1999 Jul 1999 18:14:58 -0700 Subject: Unsubscribe from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Sun Jul 4 21:06:57 1999 Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:05:57 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) ,irish-george@worldnet.att.net, RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Payne I have an old Field and Stream magazine with a great article on canerods.The writer visited the Payne shop and described various steps inbuildinga fly rod. He also mentioned that he was not allowed to go into certainareas such as the milling and heat treatment departments and that allrodmakers had their secret processes./* Snip */ I can't help thinking there is a bit BS in all this secret stuff. I'm notsaying people and these great shops didn't have secrets but to not allowsomeone into the heat treating department (the milling dept is fairenough) must just have been a bit of mystique maintenance. What could bededuced by just looking?Hardy is said to have sections of bamboo from every rod they ever madetucked away waiting for owners to return rod sections for repair with theexact piece of bamboo the rod was made with. I'm not saying they don't butwho's to know? It's just another example. Sounds like the Moulding Loft in the boat yard I apprenticed in. We had asecret we didn't want revealed up in there we never let people see toobut it involved curvatious pictures that weren't boats and the fact thatevery Friday we knocked off at 2pm and had a few drinks up there and younever knew for certain the bottles had been cleaned up yet. I just happen to believe that cane rods need to impregnated.You can prove quite easily if I am a latent homosexual and at the sametimediscover whether you like hospital food.When I attended gathering in PA a couple of years ago I arranged to meetafly fisherman who took me to a local stretch of stream (Marinarosomething)Anyway, fishing was too difficult for me, the fish can see you a mile off.We went for a meal and a few drinks and stood by our cars talking thatnightand he mentioned that he was tired and did not look forward to the 11/2hrdrive home. I said to him matter of factly, "You could stay the night inmyroom, but the problem is there is only one bed"The guy took of like a shot, and I have never heard of him since.It only dawned on me what I had said on the drive home the next morning.Ihad to grin, I tried not to imagine if he took the offer up!Terry xxxx You Don Juan you, are you sure you didn't mention looking at youretchings? Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Jul 4 21:59:28 1999 (SMTPD32-5.01) id AFF49AD0106; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 23:01:08 EDT Subject: Re: Payne Terry,That's more like it. You have a conviction, founded on some personalobservations, that predispose you to build impregnated rods. That'sperfectlyunderstandable, and is the same reason why I wax all my rods.The Invisible Cat and Latent Homosexual scenarios both came from anessay byC.S. Lewis. They are excellent illustrations of bad arguments, c'est ca?Best regards,Reed TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: I just happen to believe that cane rods need to impregnated. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Jul 5 09:36:30 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Subject: Wrong end splits Friends,I've got a "special" culm at home I want to make a rod from.It's about 8 feet long, and 3" around at the butt end. Troubleis, the tip end already has eight or ten splits. They extend fromthe very tip to the first node, about 14 inches or so. I need tosave as much cane as possible from that tip end, because the nodesat the butt end are very closely spaced.How much more difficult will it be to split from the tip? CanI just extend the splits mother nature put there? I've never doneit that way before. What potential problems can I expect? Harry from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Jul 5 10:34:23 1999 Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:32:00 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Wrong end splits Might be worth bandsawing just this once? Tony Friends,I've got a "special" culm at home I want to make a rod from.It's about 8 feet long, and 3" around at the butt end. Troubleis, the tip end already has eight or ten splits. They extend fromthe very tip to the first node, about 14 inches or so. I need tosave as much cane as possible from that tip end, because the nodesat the butt end are very closely spaced.How much more difficult will it be to split from the tip? CanI just extend the splits mother nature put there? I've never doneit that way before. What potential problems can I expect? Harry /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jul 5 11:27:00 1999 Subject: Re: Wrong end splits rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 7/5/99 2:43:31 PM, fbcwin@fsbnet.com wrote: Harry - You didn't say what kind of a rod you are building. If it is a two piece, you might want to think a bit about where you want to cut the culm. You might consider making some splices in the butt section strips so thatyou can extend the length of the tip material. Since it is a large culm, you should have a lot of material to work with no matter what you do. It is difficult to comment without seeing the culm,but I think I would cut it in half (or whatever) and split the butt as younormally do, then extend the splits in the tip section and live with the results. It's hard to imagine a scenario where you wouldn't get enough strips for a rodout of cane this size.With regard to the butt splices, most of the nodeless guys heat treat first, so they are not concerned with heat resistant glue, and can use what they want. I heat treat later in the process, so I glue any splices with resourcinol. It turns black, and is fairly obvious, but there is no danger of failure. from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 5 11:57:06 1999 11:56:25 -0500 ix6.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Impregnating information. I am new to bamboo rodbuilding and am interested in finding out moreabout impregnating my blanks. After reading the speculative posts aboutPayne's "secret milling and heat treating" as mentioned in an oldmagazine article someone on the list recently quoted, I would like tofind out more about how to do this. I have a few ideas, but would liketo know what types of resins would work, temperatures used in heattreating. If there is anyone out there that would be willing to sharethis information or even point me in the right direction "off-list ifneccessary", I would really appreciate it. I have some ideas and somehunches I would like to experiment with. Thanks. Jeremy Gray from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Jul 5 13:08:25 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Wrong end splits Tony and Tom,Sorry Tony, I can't go the bandsaw route. Two reasons, first it justdoesn't seem right. Second, I don't have a bandsaw.Tom's idea makes perfect sense. Since I'll be making a 7' 2 piece rod,I'll cut off just enough of the culm to stagger nodes and make tips. Thensplitthe butts as usual. Counted the splits at lunch, and there are 8, total.Shouldn't be too tough to get at least twelve strips. Unless someone pipesin tosay not to do so, I'll just extend the splits already there.Any other suggestions? Thanks, Harry BTW - this is locally grown Louisiana cane. Nice and dry. Power fiberslookvery similar to my good Tonkin. Nodes will be a pain. This is anexperiment.I'll let y'all know how it comes out. Should start by August 1. from Krinkalee@cs.com Tue Jul 6 01:46:01 1999 Subject: looking for bamboo rodmaker in South Florida Folks, I am looking for name, address, and phone number of a rodmaker in South Florida. Can anyone help, please and thanks........ Skeeter in cool West Palm Beach, FL. from freaner@gte.net Tue Jul 6 08:21:48 1999 Subject: Speaking of Lathes... Speaking of Lathes - Here's a site that might bear watching in thefuture...(Enter search word "lathe"). Standard disclaimers - no connectionat all to the site or its owners. Claude from jackdale@uswest.net Tue Jul 6 09:21:12 1999 (206.196.156.235) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Question Terry,I seem to be in your camp on this one. One reason some of us own andprize aLeonard or a Payne or a Phillipson or some such is a physical and temporalconnection to "the man himself" and the history and tradition that seemsto besuch a part of fly fishing. These rods have historical cache and thatmakesthem valuable. My first rod was a glass rod that was given to me by a friend. It was builtupon a Fenwick bland and the term "butt ugly" must have been coined whilesomeonewas gazing at that rod. However, the fish didn't care a whit. I still lendthat rod to beginners for a season or two to get them started. My point isthatit doesn't take a Leonard or an Ackland, for that matter, to catch a fish,butas Gierach said, "catching a fish is the goal but not the point of fishing."Part of the point may just be to connect to a lovely old tradition, somewonderful historical characters, and to the magical quality imparted tothetools one uses by excellence in craftsmanship. Of course, there are a couple of other points to choosing the tackle someof ususe, and one of them lies in its inherent "ooooh" factor, that is, a rod'sability to make other fisher folk say, "Ooooooh!" With some folk, pricetagsare a large part of the oooooh factor, but it's also nice if the rod is asuperbenough casting tool to enhance the probably suspect skills of its owner. Would I buy one of the new "Paynes?" No. Would I buy an old Jim Paynerod? Ialready have. Did Jim Payne actually build this rod? Probably not. Do Icare? Some, but not much. Is this highly idiosyncratic? Isn't all of flyfishing? Cordially,Jack Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and theystillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past makers upasgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods and youwillsee some very fine workmanship that is better than some the"MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret from sniderja@email.uc.edu Tue Jul 6 10:06:03 1999 Subject: Re: Rod Aesthetics Heck, try a compromise. Blue the hardware, then gently buff with 0000steelwool to get that "worn" look. Looks especially nice on sliding rings andend caps. Almost a pewter look, with the blueing remaining in the groovesand recesses. It is considered quite tasteful by some. I discovered this byaccident when trying to steel wool off a bad blue job to redo it. Mightnot sell on commercial rods, but on personal rods...? Jerry Snider At 11:35 AM 6/28/99 -0700, Darrell Lee wrote:I like the blued or oxidized finish when they are new, but the finishwears from use so I like the bright finish equally well... my $0.02... Darrell L. -----Original Message-----From: Randy Brewer Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:08 AMSubject: RE: Rod Aesthetics Jim,What is one person's idea of beauty is another's idea of poor taste. You'vehit on a topic that will probably generate some discussion, but I'm surethere is no 'correct' answer. I am in the minority in that I like shinynickel silver fittings, but many (or most) prefer blued hardware andthinkshiny looks bad. Who knows? I might change my mind in the future, too. Some of the old pros on this list can sure tell you what their customerslook for, and that might be the best way to learn what is in fashion. -Randy Brewer -----Original Message-----From: Jim Freeman [SMTP:jfreeman@cyberport.com]Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:44 AM Subject: Rod Aesthetics All, How about some comments on aesthetics? Chome vs bronze? When oneshouldblue? Matching handle to rod? Wraps - guide and ferrule colors - same ordifferent colors - trim wraps? Blonde vs flammed? Just what does makea rodlook good, or, maybe better, just what makes one look baaaad? Jim from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Tue Jul 6 12:27:21 1999 Subject: Test This is just a test. Is the list slow with everybody on vacation or have I been bumped. Dick Fuhrman from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 6 14:25:38 1999 14:25:00 -0500 ix6.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: List Problems Is there a problem with the Rodmakers list or did I get dropped somehow? from jwilcox@netsync.net Tue Jul 6 21:26:34 1999 Subject: vacation boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC7FE.BFC2FC40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC7FE.BFC2FC40 SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC7FE.BFC2FC40 POSTPONE ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC7FE.BFC2FC40-- from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Jul 6 23:21:57 1999 Subject: Anyone out there? I haven't seen a post to the rodmakers list for several days. I've tried"unsubscribe", then subscribe, but nothing shows up from the list. from RMargiotta@aol.com Wed Jul 7 00:48:28 1999 Subject: test test from jpsnbs@erols.com Wed Jul 7 04:19:27 1999 Subject: Test Are we slow or have I been bumped? from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Wed Jul 7 07:03:37 1999 Subject: test from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Wed Jul 7 07:54:14 1999 Subject: Speaking of Lathes... Claude,Did you forget the attachment, or did you just want us to do a search on"Lathes"Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net FR>Speaking of Lathes - Here's a site that might bear watching in theFR>future...(Enter search word "lathe"). Standard disclaimers - noconnectionFR>at all to the site or its owners. FR>Claude from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Wed Jul 7 08:01:18 1999 Subject: Impregnating information. Jeremy,You might do a search of the archives at the Rodmakers site of JerryFoster's. Frank Stetzer has provided a very nice search engine for thispurpose. My latest recollection is that Onis Cogburn did an experiment steel pipe that he evacuated then introduced the Plexiglass/Acetonesolution. After letting it stand for a while, he removed the bamboopieces and let them dry. He felt it planed alright. Haven't heardanymore for Onis since then. Maybe he impregnated himself. Onis, youout there?Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net JF>I am new to bamboo rodbuilding and am interested in finding out moreJF>about impregnating my blanks. After reading the speculative postsaboutJF>Payne's "secret milling and heat treating" as mentioned in an oldJF>magazine article someone on the list recently quoted, I would like toJF>find out more about how to do this. I have a few ideas, but would likeJF>to know what types of resins would work, temperatures used in heatJF>treating. If there is anyone out there that would be willing to shareJF>this information or even point me in the right direction "off-list ifJF>neccessary", I would really appreciate it. I have some ideas and someJF>hunches I would like to experiment with. Thanks. JF>Jeremy Gray from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Wed Jul 7 08:21:28 1999 GAA01257; (5.5.2448.0) "'jf_gray@ix.netcom.com'" Subject: RE: Impregnating information. I also would appreciate any help or direction on this subject and may be itcould beposted on the list. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-237-1460Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Jeremy Gray[SMTP:jf_gray@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 9:56 AM Subject: Impregnating information. I am new to bamboo rodbuilding and am interested in finding out moreabout impregnating my blanks. After reading the speculative posts aboutPayne's "secret milling and heat treating" as mentioned in an oldmagazine article someone on the list recently quoted, I would like tofind out more about how to do this. I have a few ideas, but would liketo know what types of resins would work, temperatures used in heattreating. If there is anyone out there that would be willing to sharethis information or even point me in the right direction "off-list ifneccessary", I would really appreciate it. I have some ideas and somehunches I would like to experiment with. Thanks. Jeremy Gray from anglport@con2.com Wed Jul 7 09:29:36 1999 Subject: Re: Anyone out there? Ted,YOU're showing up.Art At 12:19 AM 7/7/99 -0400, Ted Knott wrote:I haven't seen a post to the rodmakers list for several days. I've tried"unsubscribe", then subscribe, but nothing shows up from the list. from Craig.Naldrett@ibm.net Wed Jul 7 11:14:20 1999 out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA82412 for; Wed,7 Jul 1999 16:14:09 GMT Subject: [Fwd: Taper Files] boundary="------------270B861844E4C5F63FFF4845" This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 270B861844E4C5F63FFF4845 --------------270B861844E4C5F63FFF4845 Subject: Taper Files I was bumped from the list, don't know if following got through, if so,sorry for re-post, if anybody responded could you mail me directly,thanks. "Has anyone accessed Taper files (Option # 3) on W. Cattanach's site todownload them? "CheersCraig --------------270B861844E4C5F63FFF4845-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Jul 7 11:16:13 1999 Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:15:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod Aesthetics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEC872.4F1118A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEC872.4F1118A0 Jerry,I have done this also. In fact, it's become my favorite finish. I use =Brownell's "IM," a liquid preparation for rust-bluing guns. Instead of =going through the several stages of application-boiling-carding-off, =however, I simply clean the nickel-silver with acetone or =laquer-thinner, and then apply the liquid with a tiny wad of #000 = Wear gloves to protect your fingers from the coloring effect, and rub =the silver well while applying. The steel- wool itself becomes blued, =and this color is also imparted to the nickel- silver (which, otherwise, =seems to want to resist even bluing). You may need to do this more than =once to get the effect you're after, but when satisfied, let the piece ="cure" for at least 24 hours, and then polish lightly with #0000 =steel-wool to bring the color-tone back somewhat from the pure black. Lastly, rub the pieces with your finger dipped lightly in a satin =poly-varnish for nearly permanent protection. (You might want to do this =a couple times). Let the varnish cure for a few days. Works great =with ferrules, too. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Jerry Snider rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 8:02 AMSubject: Re: Rod Aesthetics Heck, try a compromise. Blue the hardware, then gently buff with =0000 steelwool to get that "worn" look. Looks especially nice on sliding rings =andend caps. Almost a pewter look, with the blueing remaining in the =groovesand recesses. It is considered quite tasteful by some. I discovered =this byaccident when trying to steel wool off a bad blue job to redo it. =Mightnot sell on commercial rods, but on personal rods...? Jerry Snider At 11:35 AM 6/28/99 -0700, Darrell Lee wrote:I like the blued or oxidized finish when they are new, but the =finish wears from use so I like the bright finish equally well... my $0.02... Darrell L. -----Original Message-----From: Randy Brewer Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:08 AMSubject: RE: Rod Aesthetics Jim,What is one person's idea of beauty is another's idea of poor =taste. You'vehit on a topic that will probably generate some discussion, but =I'm surethere is no 'correct' answer. I am in the minority in that I like =shinynickel silver fittings, but many (or most) prefer blued hardware =and thinkshiny looks bad. Who knows? I might change my mind in the future, =too. Some of the old pros on this list can sure tell you what their =customerslook for, and that might be the best way to learn what is in =fashion. -Randy Brewer -----Original Message-----From: Jim Freeman [SMTP:jfreeman@cyberport.com]Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:44 AM Subject: Rod Aesthetics All, How about some comments on aesthetics? Chome vs bronze? When one=shouldblue? Matching handle to rod? Wraps - guide and ferrule colors - =same ordifferent colors - trim wraps? Blonde vs flammed? Just what does =make a rodlook good, or, maybe better, just what makes one look baaaad? Jim ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEC872.4F1118A0 Jerry,I = of going through the several stages of application-boiling-carding-off, = I simply clean the nickel-silver with acetone or laquer-thinner, and = Wear gloves to = fingers from the coloring effect, and rub the silver well while = The steel-wool itself becomes blued, and this color is also imparted to = nickel-silver (which, otherwise, seems to want to resist even = may need to do this more than once to get the effect you're after, but = satisfied, let the piece "cure" for at least 24 hours, and = lightly with #0000 steel-wool to bring the color-tone back somewhat from = pure black. Lastly, rub the = finger dipped lightly in a satin poly-varnish for nearly permanent = too. Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= AestheticsHeck, try a compromise. Blue the = then gently buff with 0000 steelwool to get that = Looks especially nice on sliding rings andend caps. Almost a = look, with the blueing remaining in the groovesand recesses. It = considered quite tasteful by some. I discovered this byaccident = SniderAt 11:35 AM 6/28/99 -0700, Darrell Lee = : rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= pros on this list can sure tell you what their = Rod = ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEC872.4F1118A0-- from freaner@gte.net Wed Jul 7 14:25:23 1999 Subject: Speaking of Lathes...(2) Speaking of Lathes - Here's a site that might bear watching in thefuture...(Enter search word "lathe"). Standard disclaimers - no connectionat all to the site or its owners. Finally found the URL... the site is http://www.tradeout.com/ Claude from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 7 14:53:07 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Speaking of Lathes...(2) Kind of pricey. If you're on the West Coast you might want to subscribe toMachinery Supermart (I think it is $12 /yr). About 120 pages of new andused lathes, mills, grinders, etc. Lathes seem to range from about 5"swingto about 120" swing with the majority in the 12"-15" range. Beforeanyoneasks, the phone number is (209) 795-7119 and I have no connectionwhatsoeverwith the publisher or any of its advertisers (no benefit to me in any way). George -----Original Message----- Subject: Speaking of Lathes...(2) Speaking of Lathes - Here's a site that might bear watching in thefuture...(Enter search word "lathe"). Standard disclaimers - no connectionat all to the site or its owners. Finally found the URL... the site is http://www.tradeout.com/ Claude from MICK@welfen-netz.com Wed Jul 7 17:27:03 1999 [127.0.0.1] with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Thu, 08 Jul1999 00:26:29 +0200 Subject: Re: Question English is just my second language therefore I asked them twice and as Iunderstood it was the second. I do not dare think of a lack of qualitycontrolbut more or less of an "easy" handling of specifications.Michael irish-george wrote: Not sure how to read this. Are you referring to taper changes over theyears from Ed Payne to Jim Payne? Or do you mean that when thecompany wasunder Payne ownership that in the same year you could order the samemodelnumber rod and get varying tapers? Or is that just some lack of qualitycontrol since the company has been out of Payne-family ownership forthelast 30+ years? George -----Original Message-----From: Michael Mèller RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:47 PMSubject: Re: Question Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestionsto thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samenameor model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Jul 7 18:13:28 1999 Subject: good place tp post rods for sale List,I was going thru my closet the other day and realized I have way to many rods. Does anyone know of a good place I can post some bamboo rods andsome old glass rods for sale? Bret from djk762@hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 18:48:31 1999 Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:47:59 PDT Subject: Steelhead Taper Rodmakers,Looking for a 8'6" light steelhead taper. A post in the archives suggests a Para 17 or Garrison 221. Any comments on these rods or suggestions fora 7/8 ish steelhead rod? Thanks, David Kashuba. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Jul 7 21:07:09 1999 Subject: Tools Hello,I'm fairly new to the list and until now have just been reading all the great postings but I'm wondering if you guys can help me withinformation on how to obtain a good used form and tools to set up my work shop. Iwould be grateful for the helpThanks from a beginnerJoe from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Jul 7 22:29:17 1999 Subject: Re: Steelhead Taper RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 7/7/99 11:52:24 PM, djk762@hotmail.com wrote: David - I have cast them both, and would not know which to recommendwithout seeing you cast. They are both great rods. I think most people would findthe Garrison easier to cast, and a good all around rod. The Para 17 is a bit trickier, but not as tricky as a lighter Para. It is a phenomenal distance caster. from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 00:59:18 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Question Workmanship is certainly an important part of the value...but, aren't youalso forgetting some things like creating a taper that casts well? It musthave been quite a bit more difficult before all the books and computerprograms started popping up! George -----Original Message----- ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Question Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and theystillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these past makers upasgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners rods and youwillsee some very fine workmanship that is better than some the "MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 01:05:47 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Question boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEC8CD.45C5E2C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEC8CD.45C5E2C0 Actually, ED Payne initially built the reputation (it IS the E.F. Payne =Rod Company and Ed was the one who learned his craft at H.L. Leonard). =Happily, JIM furthered the craft and enhanced the reputation. George-----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Cc: MICK@welfen-netz.com ;anglport@con2.com =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 5:33 AMSubject: Re: Question But why is it "unprincipled" to buy a well-known company, when one =has the intention to revive, replicate, and thereby to continue a fine =tradition? I guess I just don't understand the problem here. Of course =this is a commercial venture, and of course the new company is on Payne's reputation, but why denigrate the principles of the =present owners on account of that, when a high quality product and = Certainly Jim Payne built the reputation of his product, but may =nobody else continue it without being thought "unprincipled?" Jim Payne =was among the finest rod makers, but he was only a man, and his product =was only a fly rod for sale--even in mass, to Abercrombie-Fitch. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: MICK@welfen-netz.com ; =anglport@con2.com ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:11 PMSubject: Re: Question Bret,the name Payne must be worth something for a bunch of guys to =want to purchaseit. Knowing Bill Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work being turned out by today's =rodmakers, and theyare doing it under their own name, not riding on the backs of =others. It must bemore satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a way of trying to get immediate recognition =without doing thework.Why choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am not that bothered because I am not chasing that market =which isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is between the new Payne =and theirconscience.Terry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Terry,What about Leonard rods they have gone thru many hands too and =they stillcarry a hefty price tag. Now I have not seen any of the new =Paynes orLeonards but I think it is ridiculous to hold any of these =past makers up asgods in the rod world. I have seen Paynes ( have one) and I =have seenKushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who =are doing abetter job. Look at one of Don Schroeders or Jeff Wagners =rods and you willsee some very fine workmanship that is better than some the ="MASTERS". My$.02 worth.Bret ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEC8CD.45C5E2C0 Actually, ED Payne initially built= reputation (it IS the E.F. Payne Rod Company and Ed was the one who = reputation. George -----Original = hexagon@odyssee.net =MICK@welfen-netz.com<MICK@welfen- <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Question "unprincipled" to buy a well-known company, when one = Part 1/1 (subpart 5/15), total size 941160 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------course this is a commercial venture, and of course the new company = trading reputation, but why denigrate the principles of the present owners = account of that, when a high quality = Payne built the reputation of his product, but may nobody else = = the finest rod makers, but he was only a man, and his product was = rod for sale--even in mass, to =Abercrombie-Fitch. Bill Grhghlndr@aol.com = <MICK@welfen- anglport@con2.com = RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= QuestionBret,the name Payne must be = something for a bunch of guys to want to purchaseit. Knowing = Ally, he did not give it away.Sure, there is some fine work = turned out by today's rodmakers, and theyare doing it under = satisfying to see your own name on a product?I think it is a = trying to get immediate recognition without doing = choose Payne? why not H. I. or The Lucky rod Co. Japan?I am = isovercrowded.I just find it unprincipled, but that is = the new Payne and =theirconscience.TerryGrhghlndr@aol.com = Kushners, Gillums etc. and I have seen todays rod makers who are = = Bret ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BEC8CD.45C5E2C0-- from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 01:12:51 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Question A difference here...with a "Ford" or "Chevy" or "Hewlett-Packard" or ???,the work is NOT primarily the work of one person. The type of business aPayne Rod Company is/was can probably be more appropriately comparedto adental practice, medical practice, accountancy firm, etc -- where thereputation and value of the company is due almost exclusively to theownersof the company. Such firms' monetary value is practically nil if youcannotconvince the previous owners to stay on. George(who once had same problem selling a closely-held corporation)----- Original Message----- ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Question Bill, Terry et al,Bill has a very valid point here Terry and I think on this note we shouldmove on to more pressing matters. I believe everyone has an opinion onthisand no matter what we all think I hope that they do well in their ventureandthat they try and keep the fine product that was originally started. It isashame to see any of the old names lost because of death of the originalowner. Heck boys if Ford would have shut down because of Henry'sdemise weall could well be driving Kowalski's now.Bret from earsdws@duke.edu Thu Jul 8 03:35:50 1999 (earsdws@godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu Subject: Re: good place tp post rods for sale Lordy, Bret,I think what you mean to say is that you have too little time for fishing. Can one have too many rods (too much air to breath)!?dws. On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:11:24 EDTFrom: Grhghlndr@aol.com Subject: good place tp post rods for sale List,I was going thru my closet the other day and realized I have way tomany rods. Does anyone know of a good place I can post some bamboo rods andsome old glass rods for sale? Bret from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Jul 8 05:36:10 1999 Subject: Logo ID? & TBFR spoke to me! boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC903.CCFD74C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC903.CCFD74C0 I have an unidentified reel seat (poor condition) with a diamond shape =logo enclosing an feathered arrow piercing the characters "D11". Could = promising my first new subscription issue will be sent this week! ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC903.CCFD74C0 I have an unidentified reel seat = condition) with a diamond shape logo enclosing an feathered arrow = at = received e-mail from them promising my first new subscription issue will= this week! ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC903.CCFD74C0-- from gl@msrr.dmso.mil Thu Jul 8 08:43:11 1999 triton.dmso.mil(8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16473 for ;Thu, 8 Jul 1999 Subject: taper request i'm interested in building a 5.0 or 5.5 ft two or three wt. does anyonehave a taper for such a rod? tks. gl--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.) from amcsmith@nlis.net Thu Jul 8 09:43:50 1999 Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:44:37 -0400 Subject: Re: taper request At 09:42 AM 7/8/99 -0400, gl@msrr.dmso.mil wrote:i'm interested in building a 5.0 or 5.5 ft two or three wt. does anyonehave a taper for such a rod? tks. gl--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.) Here's the two rod tapers:Orvis Mitey Mite 5ft x 2pc x 1 1/2 ounce:0 = 0.078, 5 = 0.089, 10 = 0.100, 15 = 0.108, 20 = 0.123, 25 = 0.140, 30 =0.160,35 = 0.183, 40 = 0.203, 45 = 0.221, 50 = 0.243, 55 = 0.258, 60 = 0.267. The Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce rod:0 = 0,070, 5 = 0.088, 10 = 0.107, 15 = 0.0.119, 20 = 0.133, 25 = 0.146. 30= 0.175,35 = 0.182, 40 = 0.190, 45 = 0.205 (estimate under cork).thease tapers were posted to the list by ray ? Jerry Snider wrote: Has anyone actually built this taper? If so, can you provide input re theoutcome?J. SniderAt 09:49 AM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:Someone asked for a 4'4" 2pc 4wt 0- .0685- .08410- .09615- .11420- .12825- .14430- .15835- .17640- .19245- .220to 52 .220 It uses an 11/64 ferrule based on a D taper 1 7/16ozFell free to use a 3wt alsoA.J.Thramer this one by AJhave not built either but plan to build AJ for maine small stream brookieschris from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jul 8 10:35:40 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:35:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Tools Hi Joe,Knowing where you are might help us point you in the right direction. Theremay be someone local who could loan you some stuff to get started, aswell asanswer lots of questions. Or, you might want to make the trip to one oftherodmaker gatherings. Every gathering seems to have more informationthan youcould possibly digest.Also, both John Lintvet's site and Russ Gooding's site have a pagededicatedto used tools. You can find both of them off of the Rodmakers page.As a final suggestion, you can make your own forms, binder, oven, etc.following the directions in any one of several how-to books - notablyCattanach,Howell, Gould, and Maurer. Many if not most of today's rodmakers havemade theirown stuff. Buy a Stanley 9.5 plane, a good sharpening system, and a heatgun,and you're in business.Hope this helps,Harry Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: Hello,I'm fairly new to the list and until now have just been reading allthe great postings but I'm wondering if you guys can help me withinformationon how to obtain a good used form and tools to set up my work shop. Iwouldbe grateful for the helpThanks from a beginnerJoe from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Thu Jul 8 10:40:13 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:40:03 -0500 Subject: Re: good place tp post rods for sale Bret,I've had good luck getting rid of all my graphite stuff on the VFSclassified. I even sold one bamboo rod there. For $2, you place an ad. Can'tbeat the ad rates! Set a fair price and you shouldn't have much troublesellingyour stuff.In another direction, if you've got several bamboo rods for sale, contactone of the dealers. I've had good experiences with both Bob Corsetti,CarmineLisella. I'm sure the others are good too, I just haven't bought from them.BTW, I'd like to see a list (privately) of what you have to offer. Probablycan't afford any of it, but would like to see it anyway. Harry Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,I was going thru my closet the other day and realized I have way tomanyrods. Does anyone know of a good place I can post some bamboo rods andsomeold glass rods for sale?Bret from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Jul 8 11:13:33 1999 Subject: Re: taper request I have built two of the A.J. Thramer 4'4" 4wt as one piece models, andbuilt another on that same taper but stretched it out to 5'. The lattercasts a 3 wt or a 4 wt At 10:44 AM 7/8/99 -0400, amcsmith wrote:At 09:42 AM 7/8/99 -0400, gl@msrr.dmso.mil wrote:i'm interested in building a 5.0 or 5.5 ft two or three wt. does anyonehave a taper for such a rod? tks. gl--------------------gary mischcdr, usn (ret.) Here's the two rod tapers:Orvis Mitey Mite 5ft x 2pc x 1 1/2 ounce:0 = 0.078, 5 = 0.089, 10 = 0.100, 15 = 0.108, 20 = 0.123, 25 = 0.140, 30 =0.160,35 = 0.183, 40 = 0.203, 45 = 0.221, 50 = 0.243, 55 = 0.258, 60 = 0.267. The Hardy A&F Banty 4'-4" x 2pc x 1 ounce rod:0 = 0,070, 5 = 0.088, 10 = 0.107, 15 = 0.0.119, 20 = 0.133, 25 = 0.146. 30= 0.175,35 = 0.182, 40 = 0.190, 45 = 0.205 (estimate under cork).thease tapers were posted to the list by ray ? Jerry Snider wrote: Has anyone actually built this taper? If so, can you provide input re theoutcome?J. SniderAt 09:49 AM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote:Someone asked for a 4'4" 2pc 4wt 0- .0685- .08410- .09615- .11420- .12825- .14430- .15835- .17640- .19245- .220to 52 .220 It uses an 11/64 ferrule based on a D taper 1 7/16ozFell free to use a 3wt alsoA.J.Thramer this one by AJhave not built either but plan to build AJ for maine small stream brookieschris from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 8 13:33:40 1999 LAA23884 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: FW: next issue Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-237-1460Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Mark Metcalf[SMTP:bam-fly@pacbell.net]Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: next issue Dear Patrick: We are working very hard on getting the next issue out. Wehappen to be one of those unfortunate people who got hit by one of thosecomputer viruses. We are now up and running, frantically trying toplay catch up. I have seen some of the proofs for the next issue, and Iknow you will like it. Please, once again accept my deepest apologies Thank YouShane ChungSubscription Dept. - The Bamboo Fly Rod "Coffey, Patrick W" wrote: are we ever going to receive the january issue???? from thramer@presys.com Thu Jul 8 14:51:29 1999 Subject: Re: Steelhead Taper David Kashuba wrote: Rodmakers,Looking for a 8'6" light steelhead taper. A post in the archivessuggestsa Para 17 or Garrison 221. Any comments on these rods or suggestions 7/8 ish steelhead rod? Thanks, David Kashuba. _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Try a Granger taper and beef up the tip. They have allways been afavorite around here for light steelhead. Some interesting tapers arein a book by Letcher Lambuth A.J.Thramer from MICK@welfen-netz.com Thu Jul 8 15:23:09 1999 [127.0.0.1] with SMTP(MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Thu, 08 Jul1999 22:22:13 +0200 "RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Question Hi Terry and allI forgot the name of this rodmaker and he didn't give me his busimesscard but they definitivly didn't belong to REC.I guess he is about fortyof age. TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Michael,who are the Payne rodmakers? from what I remember the Payne name and equipment was picked up byJohnson Wax whoyearslater sold it to an employee who started REC.REC tried to get the Payne equipment up and running but could notproduce tips(familiar? YES!! :) I drove down to Vermont a couple of years ago to purchase some of thePayne bamboobecausemy usual supplier at the time could not deliver. I was shown all thePayne equipmentand ahalf finished rod shop with with a large window where visitors couldpeer in at arodmakerat work. They told me they were looking for a rodmaker several timesand how they plantoproduce Payne rods again. It sounded very much like a hint but I am notsure. Icertainlywas not going to touch that. How can you build Payne rods if you are notPayne.It was very interesting to see the type of machinery that Payne used and from that itwaseasy to see that it was his genius that was was the real asset and notthe worn outjunkthat was used.I cannot see how you can make Payne rods by picking up his equipmentlong after he isdead. Rather like calling yourself Picasso and knocking out similarstyled work.Terry completely agreed but nevertheless they named themselves "Payne Rod Co." As I asked them > what it means: handmade, the fellow mentioned the splitting of a culm and straightening the splines. But to tell the truth: these rods looked tidy.To bad they didn't let you cast themat the casting pool like other companies. Michael Michael Mèller wrote: Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model#but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide on this.Art from djk762@hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 18:40:41 1999 Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:40:09 PDT Subject: Re: Re: Steelhead Taper Rodmakers/Bill Lamberson/A.J. Thramer, Thanks for the suggestions. Being raised on 9'6" plastic I'm a little wary of an 8' steelhead rod. How are Dickerson's big 8'ers for roll-casting and mending? I have never seen a Dickerson 8'6" 7/8 wt. taper posted or in print. Does anybody out there have one?I do have a Granger Deluxe 9' that throws a 7wt. I bought it from Phil Snider's widow Chyral (great lady) Love this rod to bits. But as with the Dickerson I have yet to see an 8'6" taper for a 7/8 wt. granger. Also, A.J. how much extra bamboo on the tips would you try? I realize this would bean experiment and a learning process I should deal with on my own but what would be a good starting point? Thanks All, David Kashuba _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 8 18:49:27 1999 18:48:49 -0500 ix4.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:00:24 -0500 From: Onis Cogburn Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Hi Dick,Yep, I'm still here. I am planning on trying the impregnation on my nextrod. I've used it sucessfully on reel seat inserts and test samples ofbamboo. I've been impregnating wood blanks and then turning the reelseat.The plexiglass impregnated reel seat blanks machine better than the rawwood. I still need to find out how the glue holds on the impregnatedbamboo strips. That's the big "if" when impregnating bamboo this way. Theacetone will attack the glue joints so the strips need to be impregnatedbefore they are planed and glued. The impregnated test strips planed finebut I haven't run the glue tests yet to find out if ther are any problemsgluing the impregnated strips. I am working on converting an old Foxmodelairplane engine to make a vacuum pump. I'm going to use that whenimpregnating the reel seats. First the vacuum, then the solution then thecompressor to make sure everything gets penetrated. Jeremy, what I did was to make a chamber from a piece of galvanizedpipeand two end caps. I drilled and taped one of the caps to accept an airfitting. I put the material to be impregnated in the chamber, pour in thesolution and screw the cap back on. I hook my air compressor up to thefitting on the chamber and run it up to about 100 psi. Probably doesn'ttake that much but better to much than not enough. I then let it set for afew hours. Haven't tried to find the minimum time. I left it overnightand it worked fine. It works great for bamboo but I would like to put avacuum on it first for reel seats. The reason is this: Using only thecompressor, the air in the wood and bamboo is squeezed to a very smallvolume. However when you release the pressure, the trapped air expandspushing the excess solution out of the material. This is great for bamboosince it minimized weight but for the reel seats I would like to retainmore of the solution in the wood; hence the pretreatment with the vacuum. The solution I have been using is made from plexiglass as Dick said. Ibreak up the plexiglass into small enough pieces to fit into a mason jar.I then cover it with acetone and let it set for two or three days. Theacetone disolves the plexiglass making a syrup that looks like clear Kayrosyrup. add a 3 oz bottle of clear model airplane dope to about a quart ofthe "syrup" and dilute with acetone to about the consistency of milk. Oncethe material in in the wood or bamboo, it will dry quickly; less than a day Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Jeremy,You might do a search of the archives at the Rodmakers site of JerryFoster's. Frank Stetzer has provided a very nice search engine for thispurpose. My latest recollection is that Onis Cogburn did an experiment steel pipe that he evacuated then introduced the Plexiglass/Acetonesolution. After letting it stand for a while, he removed the bamboopieces and let them dry. He felt it planed alright. Haven't heardanymore for Onis since then. Maybe he impregnated himself. Onis, youout there?Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net JF>I am new to bamboo rodbuilding and am interested in finding out moreJF>about impregnating my blanks. After reading the speculative postsaboutJF>Payne's "secret milling and heat treating" as mentioned in an oldJF>magazine article someone on the list recently quoted, I would like toJF>find out more about how to do this. I have a few ideas, but would likeJF>to know what types of resins would work, temperatures used in heatJF>treating. If there is anyone out there that would be willing to shareJF>this information or even point me in the right direction "off-list ifJF>neccessary", I would really appreciate it. I have some ideas and someJF>hunches I would like to experiment with. Thanks. JF>Jeremy Gray from LECLAIR123@aol.com Thu Jul 8 19:09:01 1999 Subject: Re: taper request In a message dated 7/8/99 6:50:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,gl@msrr.dmso.mil writes: Gary,I have a taper for a five foot-one weight. I'vebuilt three of these rods so far, and they are a dream to fishwith. I caught a thirteen inch brown with mine about a monthago. Boy, what a fight. The other two that I built for a coupleof older gentlemen, have hooked and landed trout up tosixteen inch with there rods. This is a five foot, two piece. 0-.0505-.06010-.06715-.08020-.08725-.09830-.11035-.11840-.13045- .14650-.18255-.24060-.240 Dave LeClair from thramer@presys.com Thu Jul 8 19:36:50 1999 Subject: Payne Rodmakers The Payne Co. is in Sisters OR (close to Bend) and is owned by a fellownamed Dave Holloman. I"ve met and enough said.A.J.Thramer from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Jul 8 21:03:17 1999 Subject: Greenheart Salmon rod A fellow stopped by the house a moment ago to show me a 16' greenheartsalmon rod, 3 pc. with two tips.The decal states Farlow & Co., Ltd. followed by the word Holdfast. The rodis in poor shape, but he is only interested in using it as a wall hanger inhis cabin. He purchased it in England recently, and in trying to get itback to the States via air, the rod suffered some damage. A missing tiptopis the primary loss, and some stripping guides also pulled loose. Thewrapsunder the finish are actually blue, but the chocolate brown finish on therod covers the wraps, making them brown as well. the brown finishappearsto be original, is heavily "cracked", and the wood grain can barely be seenunder the finish.Anyone have any info on this rod? I have been told that the Farlow Co. isnow owned by Hardy, but the businesses operate separately? Any infowouldbe much appreciated. TIA.Jerry Snider from leroyt@involved.com Thu Jul 8 21:13:02 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:12:58 -0700 Subject: RE: Impregnating information. There is a good article in The Planing Form, issue #19 Jan/Feb of 93, thatcovers this subject very well. Leroy......... -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:00:24 -0500 From: Onis Cogburn Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Hi Dick,Yep, I'm still here. I am planning on trying the impregnation on my nextrod. I've used it sucessfully on reel seat inserts and test samples ofbamboo. I've been impregnating wood blanks and then turning thereel seat.The plexiglass impregnated reel seat blanks machine better than therawwood. I still need to find out how the glue holds on the impregnatedbamboo strips. That's the big "if" when impregnating bamboo thisway. Theacetone will attack the glue joints so the strips need to be impregnatedbefore they are planed and glued. The impregnated test strips planedfinebut I haven't run the glue tests yet to find out if ther are any problemsgluing the impregnated strips. I am working on converting an oldFox modelairplane engine to make a vacuum pump. I'm going to use that whenimpregnating the reel seats. First the vacuum, then the solution then thecompressor to make sure everything gets penetrated. Jeremy, what I did was to make a chamber from a piece of galvanizedpipeand two end caps. I drilled and taped one of the caps to accept an airfitting. I put the material to be impregnated in the chamber, pour in thesolution and screw the cap back on. I hook my air compressor up to thefitting on the chamber and run it up to about 100 psi. Probably doesn'ttake that much but better to much than not enough. I then let itset for afew hours. Haven't tried to find the minimum time. I left it overnightand it worked fine. It works great for bamboo but I would like to put avacuum on it first for reel seats. The reason is this: Using only thecompressor, the air in the wood and bamboo is squeezed to a very smallvolume. However when you release the pressure, the trapped air expandspushing the excess solution out of the material. This is great forbamboosince it minimized weight but for the reel seats I would like to retainmore of the solution in the wood; hence the pretreatment with thevacuum. The solution I have been using is made from plexiglass as Dick said. Ibreak up the plexiglass into small enough pieces to fit into a mason jar.I then cover it with acetone and let it set for two or three days. Theacetone disolves the plexiglass making a syrup that looks like clearKayrosyrup. add a 3 oz bottle of clear model airplane dope to about a quart ofthe "syrup" and dilute with acetone to about the consistency ofmilk. Oncethe material in in the wood or bamboo, it will dry quickly; lessthan a day Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com Jeremy,You might do a search of the archives at the Rodmakers site of JerryFoster's. Frank Stetzer has provided a very nice search engine for thispurpose. My latest recollection is that Onis Cogburn did an experiment steel pipe that he evacuated then introduced the Plexiglass/Acetonesolution. After letting it stand for a while, he removed the bamboopieces and let them dry. He felt it planed alright. Haven't heardanymore for Onis since then. Maybe he impregnated himself. Onis, youout there?Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net JF>I am new to bamboo rodbuilding and am interested in finding outmoreJF>about impregnating my blanks. After reading the speculativeposts aboutJF>Payne's "secret milling and heat treating" as mentioned in an oldJF>magazine article someone on the list recently quoted, I would liketoJF>find out more about how to do this. I have a few ideas, butwould likeJF>to know what types of resins would work, temperatures used inheatJF>treating. If there is anyone out there that would bewilling to shareJF>this information or even point me in the right direction "off-list ifJF>neccessary", I would really appreciate it. I have some JF>hunches I would like to experiment with. Thanks. JF>Jeremy Gray from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jul 8 21:27:26 1999 Subject: RE: Impregnating information. Continuing on the subject of impregnation, what wouldbe a good way to test the success of impregnationexperiments? I'd rather not wait 20 years to see howsuccessfully moisture resistant a rod I've impregnatedis. Richard from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Thu Jul 8 22:03:04 1999 Subject: Thanks Hi Guys, Thanks for all the great information and responses. To answer some ofthe questions: Yes, Eastkoy is a trout stream in Western New York. I have finished rods from blanks that I purchased from Doug Kulick at Kane Klassics. I have restored a Southbend that I use for Steelhead. But this still qualifies me as a beginner. I have also finished numerous plastic rods. The books I have are Garrison's, Maurer, & Sinclair's. Any other suggestion's would greatly be appreciated. I am very eager toget started. Thanks again. Joe from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Thu Jul 8 22:11:05 1999 Subject: sorry Sorry, It's late & I am not thinking. I didn't realize you were talking about our rodmakers page. I won't need that information. Thanks again. Joe from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 23:39:08 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Question I believe it is Dave Holloman (sp?). One rodbroker's catalog I received inthe last year indicated that they had sent a Payne rod back to DaveHollomanat Payne for refinishing. I wonder if that means he does good work or ifthat was just in there for marketing purposes??? George -----Original Message----- RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Question Hi Terry and allI forgot the name of this rodmaker and he didn't give me his busimesscard but they definitivly didn't belong to REC.I guess he is about fortyof age. TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Michael,who are the Payne rodmakers? from what I remember the Payne name and equipment was picked up byJohnson Wax who yearslater sold it to an employee who started REC.REC tried to get the Payne equipment up and running but could notproducetips (familiar? YES!! :) I drove down to Vermont a couple of years ago to purchase some of thePayne bamboo becausemy usual supplier at the time could not deliver. I was shown all thePayneequipment and ahalf finished rod shop with with a large window where visitors couldpeerin at a rodmakerat work. They told me they were looking for a rodmaker several timesandhow they plan toproduce Payne rods again. It sounded very much like a hint but I am notsure. I certainlywas not going to touch that. How can you build Payne rods if you are notPayne.It was very interesting to see the type of machinery that Payne used and from that it waseasy to see that it was his genius that was was the real asset and nottheworn out junkthat was used.I cannot see how you can make Payne rods by picking up his equipmentlongafter he isdead. Rather like calling yourself Picasso and knocking out similarstyled work.Terry completely agreed but nevertheless they named themselves "Payne RodCo." As I asked them > what it means: handmade, the fellow mentionedthe splitting of a culm and straightening the splines. But to tell thetruth: these rods looked tidy.To bad they didn't let you cast themat the casting pool like other companies. Michael Michael Mèller wrote: Hi ArtI visited EFTTEX at Amsterdam (june18-20th) and talked about suchquestions to thepayne rodmakers and they told me:1.there are different tapers on the same models(they called it custom made!!)2. Rods of the same model # have an internal swelled butt and/oran external as well (same reason)I wouldnt dare to give different rods with a deviating design the samename or model #but I'm not as famous as they are :)tight linesMichael Art Port wrote: All (and Dennis in particular)A while back Dennis posted a Payne 102 taper. I just wanted toput it intoan Excel program I have and noticed that it has a swell at 8" from thebutt. Was it common for a rod to have a swell INTERNAL to the handle,ordid this model have an extreeeemely short handle, or...? I thought theswells always fell just before the cork began. (I am reminded ofsomethingabout rain in Spain.....) Thanks for any info anyone can provide onthis.Art from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 23:44:22 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 Subject: Re: Greenheart Salmon rod I don't know about a Hardy connection. Farlow owns Sharpe. Also, there isa flyshop in Carmel by the Sea, California, that sells greenheart rods and(I believe) blanks. Sorry I don't remember their name (I stumbled uponthemon the Internet about a year ago). George -----Original Message----- Subject: Greenheart Salmon rod A fellow stopped by the house a moment ago to show me a 16' greenheartsalmon rod, 3 pc. with two tips.The decal states Farlow & Co., Ltd. followed by the word Holdfast. The rodis in poor shape, but he is only interested in using it as a wall hanger inhis cabin. He purchased it in England recently, and in trying to get itback to the States via air, the rod suffered some damage. A missing tiptopis the primary loss, and some stripping guides also pulled loose. Thewrapsunder the finish are actually blue, but the chocolate brown finish on therod covers the wraps, making them brown as well. the brown finishappearsto be original, is heavily "cracked", and the wood grain can barely be seenunder the finish.Anyone have any info on this rod? I have been told that the Farlow Co. isnow owned by Hardy, but the businesses operate separately? Any infowouldbe much appreciated. TIA.Jerry Snider from irish-george@worldnet.att.net Thu Jul 8 23:52:06 1999 (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP +0000 , Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Gee, a H.A.L.T. (highly accelerated life test) procedure for a bamboo rod!!I'd think a very good way to give it as much (or more) stress than it wouldget in 10 years would be to boil it in water for an hour or two, take itfishing for a weekend, then boil it again for an hour or two. You get heat,moisture, mechanical stress, followed by more heat and moisture. I thinkitwould be important to boil, cast, reboil to verify that the heat andmoisture didn't make it susceptible to stress fractures, then reboil toverify that the casting didn't open up minicule seam fractures that wouldallow moisture and heat to damage the rod. This seems to be a very good subject to kick around. Anyone else have anyother thoughts? Anything I'm missing? A better way to do? Allcommentswelcome!! George Bourke-----Original Message----- ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: Impregnating information. Continuing on the subject of impregnation, what wouldbe a good way to test the success of impregnationexperiments? I'd rather not wait 20 years to see howsuccessfully moisture resistant a rod I've impregnatedis. Richard from dickay@alltel.net Fri Jul 9 06:04:52 1999 GAA10719; , , Subject: Re: Impregnating information. George, Richard, Onis, All,George has the right idea. I think that I would weight it first on a veryaccurate scale and then weight it several more times during the testingprocess to see if it gained any moisture. If it didn't gain any weight then the impregnation process was keeping themoisture out. Suspending weights off the tip and measuring the deflection before andafterthe various steps of the testing would be another way of finding theeffectsof the impregnation process. Any other ideas? Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Gee, a H.A.L.T. (highly accelerated life test) procedure for a bamboorod!!I'd think a very good way to give it as much (or more) stress than itwouldget in 10 years would be to boil it in water for an hour or two, take itfishing for a weekend, then boil it again for an hour or two. You getheat,moisture, mechanical stress, followed by more heat and moisture. Ithinkitwould be important to boil, cast, reboil to verify that the heat andmoisture didn't make it susceptible to stress fractures, then reboil toverify that the casting didn't open up minicule seam fractures thatwouldallow moisture and heat to damage the rod. This seems to be a very good subject to kick around. Anyone else haveanyother thoughts? Anything I'm missing? A better way to do? Allcommentswelcome!! George Bourke-----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:34 PMSubject: RE: Impregnating information. Continuing on the subject of impregnation, what wouldbe a good way to test the success of impregnationexperiments? I'd rather not wait 20 years to see howsuccessfully moisture resistant a rod I've impregnatedis. Richard from sniderja@email.uc.edu Fri Jul 9 06:32:33 1999 , ,, Subject: Re: Impregnating information. Hey, guys and gals, don't forget to use a non-impregnated control in yourexperiment.J. Snider.At 06:01 AM 7/9/99 -0500, Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote:George, Richard, Onis, All,George has the right idea. I think that I would weight it first on a veryaccurate scale and then weight it several more times during the testingprocess to see if it gained any moisture. If it didn't gain any weight then the impregnation process was keepingthemoisture out. Suspending weights off the tip and measuring the deflection before andafterthe various steps of the testing would be another way of finding theeffectsof the impregnation process. Any other ideas? Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net ----- Original Message -----From: irish-george ; Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:52 PMSubject: Re: Impregnating information. Gee, a H.A.L.T. (highly accelerated life test) procedure for a bamboorod!!I'd think a very good way to give it as much (or more) stress than itwouldget in 10 years would be to boil it in water for an hour or two, take itfishing for a weekend, then boil it again for an hour or two. You getheat,moisture, mechanical stress, followed by more heat and moisture. Ithinkitwould be important to boil, cast, reboil to verify that the heat andmoisture didn't make it susceptible to stress fractures, then reboil toverify that the casting didn't open up minicule seam fractures thatwouldallow moisture and heat to damage the rod. This seems to be a very good subject to kick around. Anyone else haveanyother thoughts? Anything I'm missing? A better way to do? Allcommentswelcome!! George Bourke-----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:34 PMSubject: RE: Impregnating information. Continuing on the subject of impregnation, what wouldbe a good way to test the success of impregnationexperiments? I'd rather not wait 20 years to see howsuccessfully moisture resistant a rod I've impregnatedis. Richard from dpeaston@wzrd.com Fri Jul 9 07:21:34 1999 , , Subject: Re: Impregnating information. At 09:52 PM 7/8/1999 -0700, irish-george wrote:Gee, a H.A.L.T. (highly accelerated life test) procedure for a bamboo rod!!I'd think a very good way to give it as much (or more) stress than itwouldget in 10 years would be to boil it in water for an hour or two, take itfishing for a weekend, then boil it again for an hour or two. You get heat,moisture, mechanical stress, followed by more heat and moisture. I thinkitwould be important to boil, cast, reboil to verify that the heat andmoisture didn't make it susceptible to stress fractures, then reboil toverify that the casting didn't open up minicule seam fractures that wouldallow moisture and heat to damage the rod.