--part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundary Full-name: Hank77700 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] boundary="part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary" --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary AndyJust got this. Don't know if it will work. But what the heck, it can't hurt to try it.It will be interesting to see the results. I think I gave you the wrong e mail address.It's :Hank77700@aol.com.Talk to you tomorrow.Hank --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Sat, 07 Aug 199912:24:20-0400 12:23:57-0400 Subject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] -----Original Message----- ; hank1756@aol.com ;INTERNET:baml30@aol.com ;IMLOONEYTO@aol.com; cc8364@aol.com ;BAC6262@aol.com; chick@adelphia.net ; gail sturr; jangrohs@hotmail.com ; JimGiffoniello ; mark klotz ;Michelle Hingston ; rich58@home.com; steve kramer ; tom mccartney Subject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] ----- Original Message -----From: gloria salese Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:40 PMSubject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] -----Original Message-----From: Carolyn F. Fields BarbaraStarnes ; Barbara Richardson ; BethFields; Gloria Salese ; HerbandSarah Krout ; Kathy Owens ;LindaLanier Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:47 AMSubject: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Hello,I found this very interesting and thought you would also.Carolyn --------------------Return-Path: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:18:11 -0400Message-ID: From: "Libby & Tom Martin" "Carolyn" , "Kathy" ,"Mary" Subject: this blew my mindDate: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:38:11 -0500MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020"X-Priority: 3X-MSMail-Priority: NormalX-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to admit not all the answers were true for me but about half of= =TomBit of spooky fun for you. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. DO NOT CHEAT OR IT WON'T WORK ANDYOU WILLWISHYOU HADN'T! Take 3 minutes and try this - it will freak you out!!The person who sent this said her wish came true 10 minutes after =theyread the mail. But no cheating!This game has a funny/creepy outcome. Don't read ahead, just do it =inorder. It takes about 3 minutes -worth a try. First get a pen and paper. When you actually choose names, makesureit'speople you actuallyknow, and go with your first instincts!Scroll down one line at a time - don't read ahead or you'll ruin thefun!!!! 1. First, write the numbers 1 through to 11 in a column. 2. Then, beside the numbers 1 and 2, write down any number youwant. 3. Beside the 3 and 7, write down the names of a member of the =oppositesex. Don't look ahead or it won't turn out right! 4. Write anyone's name (like friends or family...) in the 4th, 5th =and6thspots. Don't cheat or you'll be upset that you did. 5. Write down four song titles in 8, 9, 10 and 11. 6. finally make a wish. And here is the key for the game... 1. You must tell (the number in space 2) people about this game.2. The person in space 3 is the one that you love.3. The person in 7 is one you like but can't work out.4. You care most about the person you put in 4.5. the person you name in number 5 is the one who knows you very =well.6. the person you name in 6 is your lucky star.7. The song in 8 is the song that matches with the person in number=3.8. The title in 9 is the song for the person in 7.9. The tenth space is the song that tells you most about your mind.10. And 11 is the song telling how you feel about life. Send this to 10 people within the hour you read this.If you do, your wish will come true. If you don't it will become theopposite. Bloody strange but it seems to work! ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http-equiv=3DContent-Type> to admit not all the answers were true for me but about half of them = bad for just a game = this = = Don't = = down one line at a time - don't read ahead or you'll ruin = = = Beside= 1. You must tell (the number in space 2) people about this = = person= = the song telling how you feel about = = your wish will come true. If you don't it will become ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020-- --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary-- --part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundary-- --part8_76d03967.24e1ad17_boundary-- --part7_76d03967.24e20563_boundary-- --part6_76d03967.24e20db4_boundary-- --part5_76d03967.24e21b2a_boundary-- --part4_76d03967.24e34c81_boundary-- --part3_76d03967.24e3879f_boundary-- --part2_76d03967.24e47543_boundary-- --part1_76d03967.24e583c6_boundary-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Aug 13 09:27:16 1999 Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:26:56 -0400 Subject: Re: rod capacity (Off Topic - Catch And Release) boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEE576.1A9F4620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEE576.1A9F4620 Curious, because we have what sounds to be a similar fishery here in the =Newville area of PA. The results here seem very different, however. =There is a State hatchery at the headwaters of Big Spring Creek (a =once- famous limestoner), the effluent of which has de-oxygenated nearly=the entire downstream area, leaving it barren--but that's another = Several hundred fish of all species and sizes have gathered along a =stretch extending a few hundred yards just downstream from this =hatchery. These fish lay out in the open, in crystal clear water, =taking little-or-no notice of fishermen and "gawkers." They are fished =over long and hard on a year-round basis, caught regularly (and, no = Certainly, this stretch does not provide the kind of fishing that =interests me, but obviously there are hundreds of "sports" that think =it's the "bee's knees." The point, nevertheless, is that only very, =very rarely does one see a dead fish. I doubt that anyone has studied =this situation as to the C&R implications, but to the casual observer, =precious little injury seems to befall the fish. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Turbotrk@aol.com ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Thursday, August 12, 1999 5:45 PMSubject: Re: rod capacity (Off Topic - Catch And Release) Hey I have to jump in on this one. At the North Fork of the White = hatchery. They have a stream that all the released water from the = is released. It has a limitation of handicapped fisherpeople and = under 16 only. Sounds great and looks good. The number of fish = unequeled anywhere. 2 to 5 pounders are visible up and down the = The only hitch is it is catch and realease only. Every time I take = there, I see dead fish. Lots of dead fish. Overplayed, deep = I do not profess to know the answers, but this is a huge waste. my 2cents stuart miller ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEE576.1A9F4620 have what sounds to be a similar fishery here in the Newville area of = at the headwaters of Big Spring Creek (a once-famous limestoner), the = of which has de-oxygenated nearly the entire downstream area, leaving it= fish of all species and sizes have gathered along a stretch extending a = the open, in crystal clear water, taking little-or-no notice of = stretch does not provide the kind of fishing that interests me, but = there are hundreds of "sports" that think it's the "bee's = the C&R implications, but to the casual observer, precious little = seems to befall the fish. Bill -----Original = Turbotrk@aol.com = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, August 12, 1999 5:45 PMSubject: Re: rod = (Off Topic - Catch And Release)Hey I have to = handicapped fisherpeople and chilidren under 16 = reason. I do not profess to know the answers, but this = waste.my 2centsstuart =miller ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BEE576.1A9F4620-- from leroyt@involved.com Fri Aug 13 09:51:55 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:52:08 -0700 Subject: Re: plane forms You could make a combo rod, with one tip for spinnining and ferrule thebuttsection so you could change the handle around. Most fly rod tapers workwellas spinning and or bait casting.If you have only one form and it's not adjustable but has a taper in it, youslide the bamboo in it and plane to that dimension. The older Hurter'splanning was like this, a big steel plate the had groves milled in it.Have used both wood and metal forms good and not so good in both. Thebending between stations is not the big an issue, as it sounds, look moretoward the guy running the plane and his procedures. Good luck, Leroy......----- Original Message ----- Subject: plane forms I am unsure exactly wether or not 1 plane form can be used for alltapers or if they are specifically tailored for a certain taper. Also, from reading the Garrison book I gather that tapers are anything butstraight. How do you work that out in what appears to be a straightplane form? Does tightening the bolts at different levels bend the formsufficiently to get the taper right? Course if the answer to the first question is they are tailor designed,the rest do not apply. Also, has anyone built a spinning rod with bamboo? I was thinking aboutthat since I do both and I have to buy 3 culms anyway. Seems thatinstead of the line weight all I would need to do is figure the tipimpact for whatever weight I like to put on my line +/- a bobber.However I am not sure of what the handgrip design is like...seems to methat those rods have some sort of balance. Has anyone succesfully builtone? Is there any reason it would not work? from wgray@uidaho.edu Fri Aug 13 10:41:39 1999 IAA02325 13 Aug 199915:50:26 UT Subject: Re: C&R Mortality Just to stir the pot a bit on this, last winter at one of our monthly FF club meetings the speaker was a fish biologist from state F&G. He said: 1) In a study he and some others did where they took several valid studies on hook mortatily and aggrigated those (lots were rejected for various reasons too) they concluded a) barbed versus barbless hooks have no statistical difference on mortality. (Other studies show the opposite sopick one that suits you) b) time out of the water had the largest impact,espceially over 4-5 minutes. Under that mortality was quite low due to being caught. Bait hooks were very high, this was lower if the line was cut but stillhigher than lures or flies. 2) For his masters thesis he did a study of trout on the Yellowstone. One thing they determined was that the average trout was caught 7 to 9 timesin a season. He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about 50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. This paralles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400 Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from gholland@navsys.com Fri Aug 13 11:03:08 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: C&R Mortality Just to stir the pot a little more (and I've been hesitant to jump in onthis) - Any study must be accompanied by the method used to interpret theresults.Remember, if you have 10 witnesses to an accident, you are likely to get10versions of the accident affected by viewing angle and some amount ofinterpretation by each individual. All of that is said for this reason....the fish biologist states that thereis no statistical difference on mortality based on barbed vs. barbless. Ishe talking merely about the damage done from the hooking itself? I findthat even in his own findings that barbless hooks make far more sense. Hestates that time out of water is the largest factor. I submit to you that from personal experience and from observation that the use of barbed vs.barbless is the largest factor in determining time out of water. So itwouldfollow that barbless hooks are a major factor in mortality rates sincethey,in the long haul, significantly reduce time handled/out of water. Also, the comment on average fish mortality being 50% needs moreclarification....does this mean that 50% die soon agter release? If not, asI understand it, the real mortality rate is 100% for fish and,unfortunately, us. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited if I'm coming across this way....I justget a little worked up about all of these "scientific studies" withunsupported or unexplained conclusions that feed us information out ofcontext. For an interesting corollary, read a current thread on the VFSfly-tying board on the use of WD-40 on flies. Thanks for listening. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: C&R Mortality Just to stir the pot a bit on this, last winter at one of our monthly FFclub meetings the speaker was a fish biologist from state F&G. He said: 1) In a study he and some others did where they took several valid studies on hook mortatily and aggrigated those (lots were rejected for various reasons too) they concluded a) barbed versus barbless hooks have no statistical difference on mortality. (Other studies show the opposite sopick one that suits you) b) time out of the water had the largest impact,espceially over 4-5 minutes. Under that mortality was quite low due to being caught. Bait hooks were very high, this was lower if the line was cut but stillhigher than lures or flies. 2) For his masters thesis he did a study of trout on the Yellowstone. One thing they determined was that the average trout was caught 7 to 9 timesina season. He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about 50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. This paralles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400 Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from andy@w-link.net Fri Aug 13 11:42:16 1999 Subject: Bamboo Friends, I have expunged my supply of bamboo poles in Seattle. I am taking aseveralmonth hiatus from the retail end of rodbuilding tonkin cane. I have lefttwo people in the country with ample supply of high quality bamboo forrodbuilding. They are Russ Gooding of Golden Witch [gwti@desupernet.net(717)738-7330] and George Maurer of Sweet Water Rods [DrBamboo@aol.com(610)562-8595]. Both of these people are carrying the same bamboo (free of slash marksandburn marks) which I have traveled to China to collect. Contact themdirectly for order information. I am not going out of business, only focusing on other bamboo projects atthis time. I have been working with bamboo for a living much longer than Ihave been working with bamboo for building flyrods, I am continuing myworkin the world of bamboo. It has been a three year adventure for me in thebamboo for rod building business. I started at the bequest of several rodbuilders who asked that I try to find a method of importing higher qualitycane than was currently available on the market. I have traveled to Chinathree times to find a new source for the material and work very closelywiththe Chinese to try to import the highest quality material possible. Ilearned much in both my journeys to China and from rod builders here intheStates. My goal was to make good quality cane available to rod buildersnationwide.Only your (rod builders) take on that matter deems my work successful ornot. I appreciate the opportunity to work with many of you and I hope thatall builders now have an easier time finding the quality of cane you need many of you again in the near future. Please contact me directly if you have questions or comments. Thank you. With kind regards, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax from darrelll@earthlink.net Fri Aug 13 11:55:22 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] I don't know what is in the attachment you sent to everyone on the list,butit is my practice not to open any attachments unless I know the person andthere is an explanation of what it is that you are sending. A little whileback, the happy99 virus invaded many of the list members computers (notminethankfully because of my standard practice) but if it is something we'dliketo look at, you really should tell what it is in the body of the message... Darrell Lee-----Original Message----- Subject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] from jackdale@uswest.net Fri Aug 13 13:02:35 1999 (206.196.156.235) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: C&R Mortality Points well taken, Greg. The statement that "time-out-of-water" is theleadingcause of (C&R induced) mortality suggests that, if fish caught are notlifted from the water but released while still submerged, they will do quitewell.Perhaps we should be encouraging people (who aren't hungry) to use aKetchamRelease so they can release fish without either lifting them out of thewater oreven touching them at all. I use one all the time and the only time I don't use one is when the fly hasbeen taken too deeply. Then I just cut the tippet. I suspect (and hope) thatmortality among the fish I release is very low, especially since I also playthem according to the "land 'em or lose 'em" rule. Mortality is what youmakeit. Greg Holland wrote: Just to stir the pot a little more (and I've been hesitant to jump in onthis) - Any study must be accompanied by the method used to interpret theresults.Remember, if you have 10 witnesses to an accident, you are likely to get10versions of the accident affected by viewing angle and some amount ofinterpretation by each individual. All of that is said for this reason....the fish biologist states that thereis no statistical difference on mortality based on barbed vs. barbless. Ishe talking merely about the damage done from the hooking itself? I findthat even in his own findings that barbless hooks make far more sense. Hestates that time out of water is the largest factor. I submit to you that from personal experience and from observation that the use of barbed vs.barbless is the largest factor in determining time out of water. So itwouldfollow that barbless hooks are a major factor in mortality rates sincethey,in the long haul, significantly reduce time handled/out of water. Also, the comment on average fish mortality being 50% needs moreclarification....does this mean that 50% die soon agter release? If not, asI understand it, the real mortality rate is 100% for fish and,unfortunately, us. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited if I'm coming across this way....I justget a little worked up about all of these "scientific studies" withunsupported or unexplained conclusions that feed us information out ofcontext. For an interesting corollary, read a current thread on the VFSfly-tying board on the use of WD-40 on flies. Thanks for listening. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 4:54 PM Subject: Re: C&R Mortality Just to stir the pot a bit on this, last winter at one of our monthly FFclubmeetings the speaker was a fish biologist from state F&G. He said: 1) In a study he and some others did where they took several validstudieson hook mortatily and aggrigated those (lots were rejected for variousreasons too) they concluded a) barbed versus barbless hooks have nostatistical difference on mortality. (Other studies show the opposite sopickone that suits you) b) time out of the water had the largest impact,espceiallyover 4-5 minutes. Under that mortality was quite low due to beingcaught.Bait hooks were very high, this was lower if the line was cut but stillhigherthan lures or flies. 2) For his masters thesis he did a study of trout on the Yellowstone. Onething they determined was that the average trout was caught 7 to 9times inaseason. He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. Thisparalles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400From: bdcreek@crosswinds.net Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from brewer@teleport.com Fri Aug 13 13:50:35 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA08JAXf; Fri Aug 1311:50:25 1999 0700 Subject: RE: C&R Mortality I also use a Ketcham Release when releasing fish and strongly recommendit. I have to believe that it reduces the mortality of released fish. No fingers removing the fish's mucus layer, no nets doing the same, noremoval from the water whatsoever. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: C&R Mortality Points well taken, Greg. The statement that "time-out-of-water" is the leadingcause of (C&R induced) mortality suggests that, if fish caught are not lifted from the water but released while still submerged, they will do quitewell.Perhaps we should be encouraging people (who aren't hungry) to use a KetchamRelease so they can release fish without either lifting them out of the water oreven touching them at all. I use one all the time and the only time I don't use one is when the fly hasbeen taken too deeply. Then I just cut the tippet. I suspect (and hope) thatmortality among the fish I release is very low, especially since I also playthem according to the "land 'em or lose 'em" rule. Mortality is what you makeit. Greg Holland wrote: Just to stir the pot a little more (and I've been hesitant to jump in onthis) - Any study must be accompanied by the method used to interpret the results.Remember, if you have 10 witnesses to an accident, you are likely to get 10versions of the accident affected by viewing angle and some amount ofinterpretation by each individual. All of that is said for this reason....the fish biologist states that thereis no statistical difference on mortality based on barbed vs. barbless. Ishe talking merely about the damage done from the hooking itself? I findthat even in his own findings that barbless hooks make far more sense. Hestates that time out of water is the largest factor. I submit to you that from personal experience and from observation that the use of barbed vs.barbless is the largest factor in determining time out of water. So it wouldfollow that barbless hooks are a major factor in mortality rates since they,in the long haul, significantly reduce time handled/out of water. Also, the comment on average fish mortality being 50% needs moreclarification....does this mean that 50% die soon agter release? If not, asI understand it, the real mortality rate is 100% for fish and,unfortunately, us. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited if I'm coming across this way....I justget a little worked up about all of these "scientific studies" withunsupported or unexplained conclusions that feed us information out ofcontext. For an interesting corollary, read a current thread on the VFSfly-tying board on the use of WD-40 on flies. Thanks for listening. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 4:54 PM Subject: Re: C&R Mortality Just to stir the pot a bit on this, last winter at one of our monthly FFclubmeetings the speaker was a fish biologist from state F&G. He said: 1) In a study he and some others did where they took several valid studieson hook mortatily and aggrigated those (lots were rejected for variousreasons too) they concluded a) barbed versus barbless hooks have nostatistical difference on mortality. (Other studies show the opposite sopickone that suits you) b) time out of the water had the largest impact,espceiallyover 4-5 minutes. Under that mortality was quite low due to being caught.Bait hooks were very high, this was lower if the line was cut but stillhigherthan lures or flies. 2) For his masters thesis he did a study of trout on the Yellowstone. Onething they determined was that the average trout was caught 7 to 9times inaseason. He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. Thisparalles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400From: bdcreek@crosswinds.net Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from irvine@bamboorods.org Fri Aug 13 15:51:26 1999 4.30.0012/LC0055.00.e068cef4) with ESMTP id bjinaaaa for;Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:50:36 -0700 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Bishop Bamboo Rod Gathering "Great Western" Chester Jung, Chris Wohlford suggested that I write you about attending a rodgathering in the Bishop area at the end of Oct. I am new at this sort oforganizing but thought that it would be fun and give everyone a chanceto fish the last of the season. I live nine miles north of Bishop justoff 395 and have a shop that is 33 X 25 and not to cluttered yet andlots of room to park and cast rods. Thought for the first year we gatherat my place since it is free. I am making my final haul up to Bishop from Bonita tomorrow and do not have my computer on line in Bishop yetbut have a phone number (760) 387 0033 and should be home by Sat night.If you are interested in attending and have any ideas please holler alsoanyone else out there feel free to call and help us get this thing offthe ground and going. Look foreword to hearing from any of the rod makers, Tight Lines, Chuck from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Aug 13 15:53:38 1999 Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest and hiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy other machinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happens whenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Aug 13 16:06:17 1999 Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:06:07 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: bamboo I read somewhere that traditional Persian rugmakers intentionallyincluded aflaw so as not to challenge the Creator's monopoly on perfection.Seriously, is all that Demarest cane TOTALLY unusable? If not, maybe youcould sell it to some of us at a discount, depending on the extent of thedefects. -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest and hiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy other machinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happens whenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from Canerods@aol.com Fri Aug 13 16:43:46 1999 Subject: Chris McDowell's home address? All, AwOL wiped out my email address book and I can't send off a snail mailletter to Chris - I've emailed him, but he's not online today, I guess. Does anyone have his mailing address, could you post it to me? Thx, Don Burns from gholland@navsys.com Fri Aug 13 16:55:33 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: bamboo This is somewhat discouraging news for me....I'm just beginning to buildmytool collection, etc...in anticipation of building my first rod. I wasalways under the impression that Demarest was a quite reliable sourceforquality cane - not true? I would hate to think that after investing the time and money to set upthatI would be priced out of good quality cane due to a lack of supply. What's the real story? Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest and hiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy other machinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happens whenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from landeen@valley-internet.net Fri Aug 13 17:46:55 1999 0000 Subject: Re: bamboo Last year I bought a bale of cane from Demarest and one from Royer. TheRoyer cane was by far the best. Several of the culms from Demarest weresmall diameter and were split in several places. All of the Royer cane wasusable.-----Original Message----- Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest and hiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy other machinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happens whenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from jik@foxinternet.net Fri Aug 13 18:25:06 1999 Subject: Re: plane forms Fallcreek9@aol.com writes:3. In the choices, click the first button, "Frank Stetzer's Hexrod". This program appears to be broken. I entered in several differentdiameters and such and got the same stress curve always...which wasnot a curve at all actually. I even did the demo and then changed one of the values to something WAY off to see if it would change anythingand it didn't. I was sort of hoping to see the strees curve for thistaper I saw at the faq site. Also, I have looked around the net, and read ch 14 in garrison's bookand have not found a clear answer to deriving a good curve. The booksays to raise the tip stress for this and lower the butt for that, but does not explain what to do to actually compute the curve....I don'teven know for sure what math is required for that kind of calculationthough I figure its going to be calculus. So, how do I design a goodcurve, does anyone have some good ones with nice formula to extractthe needed information given a certain length etc....? I have also seen a website that explained that the stress curve should be rather smooth, yet I see these stress graphs for tapers that lookmore like mountain ranges with hard peaks and drastic changes. Sowhich is better? I have my heart set on a 3 pc 6' 4W rod. I want a medium-fast to afast action I think. Anyway, need some direction to creating theproper curve for what I want and such, lot of heard work to makesomething that will not cast nice when I am done. Frank Stetzer has an amazing program here. For example, you can take a favorite taper, say a 7-1/2 foot 5-wt rod, and easily convert it to, say,a 7- foot 4-wt and still have the same feel and casting response. Have fun. from flytyr@southshore.com Fri Aug 13 18:41:23 1999 Subject: Re: rod capacity (Off Topic - Catch And Release) StuartContact me off list. My messages direct to you are bouncing.Thanks, Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Hey I have to jump in on this one. At the North Fork of the White there isahatchery. They have a stream that all the released water from thehatcheryis released. It has a limitation of handicapped fisherpeople andchilidrenunder 16 only. Sounds great and looks good. The number of fish and sizeisunequeled anywhere. 2 to 5 pounders are visible up and down thestream.The only hitch is it is catch and realease only. Every time I take my sonthere, I see dead fish. Lots of dead fish. Overplayed, deep hooks,whatever. They are killing big fish for no reason. I do not profess to know the answers, but this is a huge waste. my 2cents stuart miller from jik@foxinternet.net Fri Aug 13 18:52:53 1999 Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:58:15 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Fishinstix@aol.com writes: I doubt that you knew this so I am telling you now, AOL seems to dosome major MIME nonscence which appears to be unparsable (meaning thaprogram can't split it into understandable items for display) as thisis the second time I have seen a mail client puke on an AOL message.There is really honestly no reason for it to behave in this way simlpy replying, which is what I gather of the message at first glance.There is especially no reason to have several blank "text/plain"content type messages, but yet it seems to do that. At any rate, I suggest you use a different email program if you can.If AOL doesn't let you do that you might want to switch services....Ihad AOL once and am very glad I switched and you would be too. AOLeven spamed me once offering their email address database for about $200 A good ISP is SPRYNET which was bought by mindspring...I still heargood things about them. Stay clear of sprint and Earthlink, they arethe worse possible answer. Return-path: MMills1189@aol.comFrom: MMills1189@aol.comFull-name: MMills1189Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:06:43 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part2_76d03967.24e47543_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 --part2_76d03967.24e47543_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part2_76d03967.24e47543_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: DippyDD29@aol.comFrom: DippyDD29@aol.comFull-name: DippyDD29Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 199922:12:47 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] tmp101@hotmail.com, jrock@pgh.net pixieblue4MIME-Version: 1.0Content- Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part3_76d03967.24e3879f_boundary"X- Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 22 --part3_76d03967.24e3879f_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part3_76d03967.24e3879f_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: JQIMU@aol.comFrom: JQIMU@aol.comFull-name: JQIMUMessage- ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:00:33 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part4_76d03967.24e34c81_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 --part4_76d03967.24e34c81_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part4_76d03967.24e34c81_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Weezer1950@aol.comFrom: Weezer1950@aol.comFull-name: Weezer1950Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:17:46 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] JINBUD@aol.com,Jrc448@aol.com, JQIMU@aol.com, LCoviello1@aol.com,Rausch@scsu.ctstateu.eduMIME-Version: 1.0Content- Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part5_76d03967.24e21b2a_boundary"X- Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 --part5_76d03967.24e21b2a_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part5_76d03967.24e21b2a_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Violets08@aol.comFrom: Violets08@aol.comFull-name: Violets 08Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:20:20 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIKEJW6699@aol.com, Nina804@aol.com, TStufflebe@aol.com,TonyD62246@aol.com, triciaplumley@yahoo.com, Vibgyor2@aol.com,Weezer1950@aol.comMIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part6_76d03967.24e20db4_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 --part6_76d03967.24e20db4_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this came pretty close to the truth for me,,,,,very creepy --part6_76d03967.24e20db4_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: LLdoveman@aol.comFrom: LLdoveman@aol.comFull-name: LLdovemanMessage-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:44:51 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part7_76d03967.24e20563_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 --part7_76d03967.24e20563_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part7_76d03967.24e20563_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Patty355@aol.comFrom: Patty355@aol.comFull-name: Patty355Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:28:07 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part8_76d03967.24e1ad17_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 --part8_76d03967.24e1ad17_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try this --part8_76d03967.24e1ad17_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Andive@aol.comFrom: Andive@aol.comFull-name: AndiveMessage-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:02:30 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Winebuff99@aol.comMIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundary"X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 24 --part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Hank77700@aol.comFrom: Hank77700@aol.comFull-name: Hank77700Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 01:00:19 EDTSubject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary"X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 22 --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AndyJust got this. Don't know if it will work. But what the heck, it can't hurt to try it.It will be interesting to see the results. I think I gave you the wrong e mail address.It's :Hank77700@aol.com.Talk to you tomorrow.Hank --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundaryContent-Type: message/rfc822Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Sat, 07 Aug 199912:24:20- 0400Received: from moocow.csionline.net (moocow.csionline.net 12:23:57-0400Received: from dsorvtwf (pm1-41.toms-river.ppp.csionline.net Message-ID: From: "Tom McCartney" Subject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind]Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:21:35 - 0400MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-Priority: 3X-MSMail-Priority: NormalX- Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 -----Original Message-----From: John DiStefano ; hank1756@aol.com ;INTERNET:baml30@aol.com ;IMLOONEYTO@aol.com; cc8364@aol.com ;BAC6262@aol.com; chick@adelphia.net ; gail sturr; jangrohs@hotmail.com ;JimGiffoniello ; mark klotz ;Michelle Hingston ; rich58@home.com; steve kramer ; tommccartney Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:15 PMSubject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] ----- Original Message -----From: gloria salese Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:40 PMSubject: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] -----Original Message-----From: Carolyn F. Fields BarbaraStarnes ; Barbara Richardson ;BethFields; Gloria Salese ;HerbandSarah Krout ; Kathy Owens;LindaLanier Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:47 AMSubject: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Hello,I found this very interesting and thought you would also.Carolyn --------------------Return-Path: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:18:11 -0400Message-ID: From: "Libby & Tom Martin" ,"Carolyn" , "Kathy" ,"Mary" Subject: this blew my mindDate: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:38:11 -0500MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020"X-Priority: 3X-MSMail-Priority: NormalX-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to admit not all the answers were true for me but about halfof= =TomBit of spooky fun for you. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. DO NOT CHEAT OR IT WON'T WORK ANDYOU WILLWISHYOU HADN'T! Take 3 minutes and try this - it will freak you out!!The person who sent this said her wish came true 10 minutes after=theyread the mail. But no cheating!This game has a funny/creepy outcome. Don't read ahead, just do it=inorder. It takes about 3 minutes -worth a try. First get a pen and paper. When you actually choose names, makesureit'speople you actuallyknow, and go with your first instincts!Scroll down one line at a time - don't read ahead or you'll ruin thefun!!!! 1. First, write the numbers 1 through to 11 in a column. 2. Then, beside the numbers 1 and 2, write down any number youwant. 3. Beside the 3 and 7, write down the names of a member of the =oppositesex. Don't look ahead or it won't turn out right! 4. Write anyone's name (like friends or family...) in the 4th, 5th =and6thspots. Don't cheat or you'll be upset that you did. 5. Write down four song titles in 8, 9, 10 and 11. 6. finally make a wish. And here is the key for the game... 1. You must tell (the number in space 2) people about this game.2. The person in space 3 is the one that you love.3. The person in 7 is one you like but can't work out.4. You care most about the person you put in 4.5. the person you name in number 5 is the one who knows you very=well.6. the person you name in 6 is your lucky star.7. The song in 8 is the song that matches with the person innumber =3.8. The title in 9 is the song for the person in 7.9. The tenth space is the song that tells you most about your mind.10. And 11 is the song telling how you feel about life. Send this to 10 people within the hour you read this.If you do, your wish will come true. If you don't it will become theopposite. Bloody strange but it seems to work! ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http-equiv=3DContent-Type> to admit not all the answers were true for me but about half of them= bad for just a game = this = wish = Don't = = = down one line at a time - don't read ahead or you'll ruin = numbers = the = Beside= = 1. You must tell (the number in space 2) people about this = = person= song = the song telling how you feel about = you= your wish will come true. If you don't it will become ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BEDBE8.6CA99020-- --part10_76d03967.24e10be3_boundary-- --part9_76d03967.24e1a716_boundary-- --part8_76d03967.24e1ad17_boundary-- --part7_76d03967.24e20563_boundary-- --part6_76d03967.24e20db4_boundary-- --part5_76d03967.24e21b2a_boundary-- --part4_76d03967.24e34c81_boundary-- --part3_76d03967.24e3879f_boundary-- --part2_76d03967.24e47543_boundary-- from jik@foxinternet.net Fri Aug 13 18:58:37 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Darrell Lee writes:I don't know what is in the attachment you sent to everyone on the list,butit is my practice not to open any attachments unless I know the personandthere is an explanation of what it is that you are sending. A little whileback, the happy99 virus invaded many of the list members computers(not minethankfully because of my standard practice) but if it is something we'dliketo look at, you really should tell what it is in the body of the message... It was mailed by AOL 4.0, second time I have seen this kind ofmalfuncion eminate from that direction. You should be able to seewhat kind of message type it is in your mailer. Also you emailershould not be opening exe files when you look at them, it should savethem to disk after only decoding them. Check your settings and suchto make sure that is its behavior. Better yet, use a system that doesn't get attacked by viruses....win95 just begs to be infected. from channer@hubwest.com Fri Aug 13 19:00:57 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A233CF70138; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:02:59 MST Subject: Re: plane forms At 05:31 AM 08/13/1999 -0700, Noah Roberts (jik-) wrote:Fallcreek9@aol.com writes:3. In the choices, click the first button, "Frank Stetzer's Hexrod". This program appears to be broken. I entered in several differentdiameters and such and got the same stress curve always...which wasnot a curve at all actually. I even did the demo and then changed one of the values to something WAY off to see if it would change anythingand it didn't. I was sort of hoping to see the strees curve for thistaper I saw at the faq site. Also, I have looked around the net, and read ch 14 in garrison's bookand have not found a clear answer to deriving a good curve. The booksays to raise the tip stress for this and lower the butt for that, but does not explain what to do to actually compute the curve....I don'teven know for sure what math is required for that kind of calculationthough I figure its going to be calculus. So, how do I design a goodcurve, does anyone have some good ones with nice formula to extractthe needed information given a certain length etc....? I have also seen a website that explained that the stress curve should be rather smooth, yet I see these stress graphs for tapers that lookmore like mountain ranges with hard peaks and drastic changes. Sowhich is better? I have my heart set on a 3 pc 6' 4W rod. I want a medium-fast to afast action I think. Anyway, need some direction to creating theproper curve for what I want and such, lot of heard work to makesomething that will not cast nice when I am done. Frank Stetzer has an amazing program here. For example, you can take a favorite taper, say a 7-1/2 foot 5-wt rod, and easily convert it to,say, a 7- foot 4-wt and still have the same feel and casting response. Have fun. Noah;Sometimes you have to reload the site to get a different curve to show up.i haven't had any trouble with Frank's site at all, but i have a newcomputer and Windows 98, it does run it a lot better than my old 386 withWin 3.1. If you are looking for a good 6' 4wt. fly rod, build the PaulYoung Midge, it's 6'3", but is a great little rod and i bet it would make agood lite spinning rod, too.John from irish-george@pacbell.net Fri Aug 13 23:09:29 1999 Subject: Re: C&R Mortality My kids' have had their goldfish (2) for two years now and still goingstrong. The only thing different about the way their goldfish are kept vsmost goldfish is that theirs have an aerator and a filter. I guess evengoldfish prefer clean, oxygenated water. George -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: C&R Mortality He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. Thisparalles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400 Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from Nodewrrior@aol.com Fri Aug 13 23:25:09 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo Hmmm,My impression of what I've seen of the two sources has been quite the opposite.I'll attribute it to dumb luck, but I do have some fine sticks. Rob from brookie@frii.com Sat Aug 14 09:26:25 1999 Subject: Fishing Cane in Colorado Yesterday Hello again to the rodmakers list ! After a short hiatus which probably -will- be resumed due to theabsolutelygreat fishing in Colorado, I've returned to read the wisdom of this List.*G* I, the owner of only one cane rod, impregnated at that ( the rod ),am still fascinated by cane for flyfishing. Ahh, the wonders of thenatural material. The subject line above is a little misleading, I didn't actually fish canebut for a few moments. I had meant to bring my one and only cane, butfortunately I forgot it ( boos and hisses in the crowd *G* ). Just as wellthat seemingly ever-present wind of Colorado was kicking up, and myfishingpardner and I WERE fishing in an open meadow on an "S" curved meanderingcreek. The breeze would abate now and again and there was a flurry ofcasting. My one and only cane is a 3 wt, and I would have had muchdifficulty in punching the line out. The fun part of the trip yesterday ? I finally met one of the Rodmakers List's members. Stu Kirkfield fromColo. Springs and I have been swapping lies for a few months, he being onone extreme of the cane-rod spectrum and I on the other. But we have adecidedly common love of the rocky mountains and high country. We metonthe edge of the meadow yesterday in the early morn and commenced toseriousswapping of lies and fishing the creek ! Absolutely delightful time. The collector/restorer of cane -and- the elderformer hippie, working upstream, casting only dries. Stu got into somenice browns on the creek. Had he but been there a week prior when thewater was just a little higher, he would have doubled his pleasure !While we are not in a drought situation in Colorado, the spring runoff ofsnow and ice from the mountains is very much over and what little rainweget is done. The levels will drop dramatically. Especially in openmeadowed high country creeks. ( Time to move on to other canyons andlarger water. ) Stu brought a Hardy "Marvel", and at one time in my flyfishing life I wouldhave been nervous to cast any cane. Not so now. Anyone offers, I do it !No way these cane can be damaged by a little waving action midstream. *G*Quite dramatic change from my gr**hite, and even MY cane. A very verysoft tip. I could have recited part of a Dumas story in between forwardand back casts. *VBG* But wonderful smooth musical cadence to it. WhenStu caught fish on it, the rod bent into smooth arc. These cane ARE amazing, yes ? I must admit, looking back on the day, one of the comments Stu made bringchuckles. Quite a reference. When first he saw me, I was coming out ofthe water, tromping across the meadow to where his vehicle was. One ofthecomments he made was, " Charles Ritz would have been impressed withyourget-up " . He refers of course to the minimalistic style that I haveevolved to in my flyfishing gear. No vest, no waders. Down to aflyfishing fanny pack with essentials, cotton pants with loads of pockets thefront of the teeshirt ! Doesn't get much more simple than that. So, here's to the Rodmakers' List for bringing two fanatic flyfisherstogether in the high country of Colorado to fling some dries to the brownsand brookies that lie within ... We'll head out again,SUE from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Aug 14 10:38:13 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:38:06 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: plane forms Noah,You might try downloading Wayne Cattanach's Hexrod at the followingsite:http://www.wcattanachrodco.com/ Wayne used Garrison's math, and tweaked it a little. He has a goodexplanation of the math involved on Jerry Foster's Rodmaker's page at:http://www2.crosswinds.net/sacramento/~jfoster/rodmakers/ Seems to me that this isn't an exact science. There's a little bit ofblackmagic, and quite a bit of art involved. I can promise you that RichardTyree's putout a little blood, sweat, and tears. The finished product of a bamboo rod,spinning or fly, will be worthwhile.Harry Boyd from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Sat Aug 14 10:41:37 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id KAA02969 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id KAA24037 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 Subject: Re: plane forms Noah, If you change the rod and get the same stress curve, try clicking the "Reload" button on your web browser. Some browser programs insiston showing the same graph rather than getting the new one. There is a little timestamp on the graph; it should change each time you geta new graph. ......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Noah Roberts (jik-) wrote: Fallcreek9@aol.com writes:3. In the choices, click the first button, "Frank Stetzer's Hexrod". This program appears to be broken. I entered in several differentdiameters and such and got the same stress curve always...which wasnot a curve at all actually. I even did the demo and then changed one of the values to something WAY off to see if it would change anythingand it didn't. I was sort of hoping to see the strees curve for thistaper I saw at the faq site. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Sat Aug 14 11:10:45 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:10:38 -0500 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: bamboo Rob,Gotta agree with you. Maintaining a consistent supply of bambooseems to be one of those things that requires a little foresight. FromDemarest, or Russ Gooding, (and I now I hear from George Maurer) one canget a few culms at a time almost at will. To get more than a few BALESat a time requires some advance communication. Very few of us can usemore than a bale a year, so we plan accordingly.At the same time I need to mention that Demarest is now offeringcane that is not butt cut to attempt to match the aesthetic qualities ofthe cane Royer has been offering. It is cut above any grower's marks. Ireceived three culms yesterday. The cane looks much like Royer's. Oneof the culms is perfect - good, deep power fibers; no growers marks; nicecolor; adequate spacing between nodes. It should make a few blonde rodswith only minimal effort. Culm two is comparable to Royer's. It is 2.7"in diameter at the butt end, but only 1.6" at the tip end. The powerfibers seem a little light, but sufficient for most trout rods. Culmthree is definitely not a mid-cut culm. At its base it is nearly 3", and2.4" at the tip. Nodes closest to the butt are only 8-10" apart,progressing to about 16.5" between uppermost nodes. It is HEAVY. Thewalls are thick, and the power fibers are very deep. This is the kind ofculm one could build salmon-saltwater rods from.Is this newly offered stuff perfect? Not in my opinion. I'llstick with the regular butt cut cane for most of my day to dayrodmaking. In fact, two of the culms I received had slight burn marks,but I can still get a blonde rod or two per culm. Since I flame most ofmy rods, I'd rather take the chance of getting 15-18 good culms, withdeeper power fibers, out of a typical butt cut bale.I need to mention that I've only used one culm from Royer's.Angel gave me one at last year's Southern Rodmakers Gathering. To saythe least, it was nice looking. But the power fibers were rathershallow, and the rod I made from it (Leonard 50DF) seems to reflect that. As long as Charles H. Demarest is in the cane business, I feelsafe knowing that I can get the raw material for my obsession. Not onlyare they good business people, they are friends as well. Some time ago,before I met Harold and Eileen Demarest, I had some problems with anorder. They made SURE that problem was solved to my satisfaction. Theydidn't know me, but they certainly knew bamboo, and bamboo rodmakers,andthey earned my respect. When I met them, months later, they earned myfriendship as well.Raw materials are still the cheapest part of making a rod. Onewell known maker is fond of saying that he spends more money per rod onsandpaper than on bamboo. I know I spend more dollars per rod for goodcork than for good bamboo. If we want to gripe about good consistentsuppliers, let's gripe about cork. Harry Nodewrrior@aol.com wrote: Hmmm,My impression of what I've seen of the two sources has been quite theopposite.I'll attribute it to dumb luck, but I do have some fine sticks. Rob from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Sat Aug 14 11:13:32 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id LAA27618 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id LAA23992 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 1999 Subject: RE: bamboo Greg, A couple years ago Demarest had trouble getting cane shipments fromChina. It seemed like they were down to the bottom of the barrel.At least some of their orders got filled with really marginal stuffIMHO. (I'm just a hobby builder and if I spend $100 for 3 culms andonly 1 is usable I don't like it.) At that time they were about the only show in town. Then Andy Royer provided a little competition, a good thing. I hope Maurer and Gooding will continue it. I don't know what Demarest's supply is like at present. "You pays your money and takes your chances."......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Greg Holland wrote: This is somewhat discouraging news for me....I'm just beginning to buildmytool collection, etc...in anticipation of building my first rod. I wasalways under the impression that Demarest was a quite reliable sourceforquality cane - not true? I would hate to think that after investing the time and money to set upthatI would be priced out of good quality cane due to a lack of supply. What's the real story? Greg Holland from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sat Aug 14 11:32:24 1999 Subject: Re: RE: C&R Mortality/Ketchum Release I was given some Ketchum Releases when they were first coming out totry out. These things work great and you can leave the fish in the water to usethem. I STRONGLY recommend that you use barbless hooks or mash down thebarbs when you do any kind of fishing too. I have recaught the same fish over and over Bret from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Aug 14 11:36:11 1999 Subject: Eastern gathering - Chile dinner Hard to believe, but the summer is almost over, and the Eastern gatheringis almost upon us. Those who have attended in the past know that the chile cookout, which began as a modest Dutch oven event for a half dozenpeople, has become an event of biblical proportions, rivaling the story of theloaves and fishes. (Well not really, but I thought Harry might enjoy that)In the past, it was easy to get the word out, since most of theparticipants were milling around the porches at the Roscoe motel in the afternoon. Ihope this year that those reading this will spread the word that all attendeesand their families are invited. I am expecting about 30 people, but can handle more as long as I know a little in advance. I would appreciate it if anyone planning to attend would let me or Tom Whittle know. The event will be held in the Marinaro Meadow on the Letort. I understand a covered pavillion and picnic tables are available, so I guess it can be a rain or shine event. As in the past, bring your own beverage.I will be setting up shop sometime late in the afternoon on Friday the10th. from anglport@con2.com Sat Aug 14 14:11:03 1999 Subject: Re: Eastern gathering - Chile dinner Ya know, Tom..., if you'd just throw a little ex-lax in that chili, nextyear you'd probably need less than one loaf of bread and the fishies couldswim free! Hey -- we're cane builders -- we're trainable! *BSEG*Art At 12:35 PM 8/14/99 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:Hard to believe, but the summer is almost over, and the Eastern gatheringis almost upon us. Those who have attended in the past know that the chile cookout, which began as a modest Dutch oven event for a half dozenpeople, has become an event of biblical proportions, rivaling the story of theloaves and fishes. (Well not really, but I thought Harry might enjoy that)In the past, it was easy to get the word out, since most of theparticipants were milling around the porches at the Roscoe motel in the afternoon. Ihope this year that those reading this will spread the word that all attendeesand their families are invited. I am expecting about 30 people, but can handle more as long as I know a little in advance. I would appreciate it if anyone planning to attend would let me or Tom Whittle know. The event will be held in the Marinaro Meadow on the Letort. I understanda covered pavillion and picnic tables are available, so I guess it can be a rain or shine event. As in the past, bring your own beverage.I will be setting up shop sometime late in the afternoon on Friday the10th. from Canerods@aol.com Sat Aug 14 15:40:01 1999 Subject: Chris McDowell's address found Cancel my request for Chris' address. Thx, Don B. from flytyr@southshore.com Sat Aug 14 16:03:59 1999 Subject: Glue Has anybody has used the Epon/Versamid epoxy sold Bow in Ogden Utah. Would like info on or off list. Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from rmoon@ida.net Sat Aug 14 17:01:09 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Glue TonyI used to buy an epoxy from Bingham Archery in Ogden. It was the beststuff for rods I have ever seen. However I spent a whole day a year orso ago looking for the place and could not find it. If they are stillin business, I need to know how to get in touch. Whether the stuff isthe same I don't know, but the epoxy I got was a heat curing and I couldwork the glued rods an hour after glueing,. Please let me know Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Aug 14 18:28:25 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo Perhaps I am unlucky, but the first consignment of Demarest cane I everpurchased 15 years ago was the best, even though it was as green asgrass. Itdid dry out and was all usable. Since then it has got smaller in dia.,coveredin deep scratches and scorch marks and crushing caused by junglestraightening.I get my cane delivered to a friend in Plattsburgh and bring it across toCanadamyself, it saves quite a bit on the cost. I have left forty sticks ofDemarestcane down there, I do not want to pay the duty because it is not worthusing.I have always kept quiet about anything that smacks even slightly ofcommercialism but perhaps wrongly so. I feel now that we did not giveRoyer thecredit that was due for the genuine effort he put in, and also we shouldhavemade more rods instead of bullshitting on this stupid list.Terry Greg Holland wrote: This is somewhat discouraging news for me....I'm just beginning to buildmytool collection, etc...in anticipation of building my first rod. I wasalways under the impression that Demarest was a quite reliable sourceforquality cane - not true? I would hate to think that after investing the time and money to set upthatI would be priced out of good quality cane due to a lack of supply. What's the real story? Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 2:52 PM Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest and hiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy other machinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happens whenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Aug 14 18:52:36 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo Seth,I have 40 pieces of cane in my basement that is unusable. Check withRichardNantel off list, I showed him.I paid up front and complained on delivery and got a replacement gratis,but itwas still unusable.I do want to hand split, I want to saw as they did in the old days. Toachievethis you must have good cane.I have been, right from the start a very independent builder, relying onlyon asupply of cane and Royer came from nowhere and produced the goods.What happens now, perhaps I should start producing equipment andhardware likewhat seems to be the trend with other rodmakers?Seth Steinzor wrote: I read somewhere that traditional Persian rugmakers intentionallyincluded aflaw so as not to challenge the Creator's monopoly on perfection.Seriously, is all that Demarest cane TOTALLY unusable? If not, maybeyoucould sell it to some of us at a discount, depending on the extent of thedefects. -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND [SMTP:hexagon@odyssee.net]Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest andhiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy othermachinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happenswhenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky' slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from hexagon@odyssee.net Sat Aug 14 19:30:48 1999 Subject: Re: C&R Mortality We had some friends that kept their goldfish in a tank with a pump etc.andthey always died within a year. My youngest daughter had a free goldfishwitha Kellogg's coupon that lived for 12 years in a tank that the water only gotchanged every year. The sod only died when the wife decided to remove agrowth from it's back with a pair of scissors!Goldfish and carp are of the same family and are extremely tough andcannot becompared to trout.I remember as a kid catching a carp which I whacked on the head and tookhomeon my bicycle in a bag. After a 1 1/2 hour cycle home it was still alive! Iputit in the bathtub for a breather and then took it and placed it in the pond inour local park.Trout are very delicate and I am not sure that catch and release does notdomuch other than ease the conscience.Terry irish-george wrote: My kids' have had their goldfish (2) for two years now and still goingstrong. The only thing different about the way their goldfish are kept vsmost goldfish is that theirs have an aerator and a filter. I guess evengoldfish prefer clean, oxygenated water. George -----Original Message-----From: wgray@uidaho.edu Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 8:45 AMSubject: Re: C&R Mortality He also did a study that basically showed average fish mortaltiy is about50%. Whether they are caught by fishermen, birds or just go fins up. Thisparalles my kids experience with goldfish (born to die). Date sent: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:46:14 +400From: bdcreek@crosswinds.net Subject: C&R Mortality I saw that story. They did no control group, and left the fish theycaught in a tank rather than returning them to anything like a normalhabitat. Hell, I'd die too. Sloppy science is no basis for a story in anational magazine. Brian There was a recent blurb in Fly Fisherman referring to a study ofmortality of striped bass after catch and release. I don't have thenumbers handy, but they showed an unbelievably high mortality. I readthis at the bookstore, so not only am I missing numbers, I can't give asource--someone might look this up and comment on numbers andreliability. from Canerods@aol.com Sat Aug 14 19:39:31 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo All, I didn't see the post from Andy - I know he's moved back and forth from Washington to Montana and then back again. Did he say that he's out of the business or getting out of the business? Is all of his stock gone? Don Burns from dan_cooney@ibm.net Sat Aug 14 19:43:50 1999 out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA21992; Sun, 15 Aug 199900:43:38 GMT "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Glue Ralph, Try the Bingham Projects website - http://www.binghamprojects.com/ Looks like they're still in business in Ogden. Regards,Dan Cooney from jik@foxinternet.net Sat Aug 14 20:09:26 1999 Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:14:52 -0700 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: bamboo Raw materials are still the cheapest part of making a rod. Onewell known maker is fond of saying that he spends more money per rodonsandpaper than on bamboo. I know I spend more dollars per rod for goodcork than for good bamboo. If we want to gripe about good consistentsuppliers, let's gripe about cork. I hear that. I just sent to Hook n Hackle and asked if they had corkthat was not bored because my taper is smaller then .25 at the butt.He told me that *noone* sells cork without a bore which is a bigproblem for the small tapers. That said, what would be a good way to fix this problem when I buildmy pole? from jik@foxinternet.net Sat Aug 14 20:11:01 1999 Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:16:20 -0700 Subject: RE: bamboo At that time they were about the only show in town. Then Andy Royer provided a little competition, a good thing. I hope Maurer and Gooding will continue it. Is there a url for these guys? from rmoon@ida.net Sat Aug 14 22:59:10 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Glue Tony and Larry and SkipMy eternal gratitude for turning up the Bingham Archery glue source.Now I will feel better about my glue jobs. Ralph from teekay35@interlynx.net Sun Aug 15 00:02:24 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo There is no duty on bamboo, only delivery and broker fees if it is being ---------- Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: bambooDate: Saturday, August 14, 1999 7:31 PM Perhaps I am unlucky, but the first consignment of Demarest cane I everpurchased 15 years ago was the best, even though it was as green asgrass. Itdid dry out and was all usable. Since then it has got smaller in dia.,coveredin deep scratches and scorch marks and crushing caused by junglestraightening.I get my cane delivered to a friend in Plattsburgh and bring it across toCanadamyself, it saves quite a bit on the cost. I have left forty sticks ofDemarestcane down there, I do not want to pay the duty because it is not worthusing.I have always kept quiet about anything that smacks even slightly ofcommercialism but perhaps wrongly so. I feel now that we did not giveRoyer thecredit that was due for the genuine effort he put in, and also we shouldhavemade more rods instead of bullshitting on this stupid list.Terry Greg Holland wrote: This is somewhat discouraging news for me....I'm just beginning tobuild mytool collection, etc...in anticipation of building my first rod. I wasalways under the impression that Demarest was a quite reliable sourceforquality cane - not true? I would hate to think that after investing the time and money to set upthatI would be priced out of good quality cane due to a lack of supply. What's the real story? Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 2:52 PM Subject: bamboo I am not sure what to make of Andy Royer's post.Is he quitting supplying cane to rodmakers? Perhaps he has discoveredthat most of us are a bunch of bullshitters that just talk rods ratherthan make them? I have been guilty of this for the last 2 years.I received a shipment of cane from Royer 18 months ago which was thebest I have ever seen. This gave me the encouragement to want to takethe hobby seriously because I would not have to rely on Demarest andhiscomplete lack of quality control!I have been busy developing a beveller that is not a copy othermachinesand have the electronics and motors for 2 more machines. I am takingpossession of a property with a 2 story barn at the end of the monthwhich I plan to convert to a manufacturing facility.I have worked slowly without the deadline that george set himself andwith the added bonus that I did have some knowledge of rodmaking.I am not sure of what is happening now, I have 80 sticks of Demarestcane which is unusable and 40 sticks of Royer's cane. What happenswhenall the Royer cane has gone? Will I have to make rods with "lucky'slashmarks on and "extra lucky" scorch marks?T. Ackland from jjohnso4@bellsouth.net Sun Aug 15 07:53:53 1999 Subject: Cork was:bamboo At 06:14 PM 8/14/99 -0700, Noah Roberts (jik-) wrote: I hear that. I just sent to Hook n Hackle and asked if they had corkthat was not bored because my taper is smaller then .25 at the butt.He told me that *noone* sells cork without a bore which is a bigproblem for the small tapers. That said, what would be a good way to fix this problem when I buildmy pole? Cabelas did sell rings with a 1/8" dia hole. Haven't checked with themlately. The quality was marginal though with about 50% being scrap. Later,Johnny ----------------------------------------------Johnny JohnsonLilburn, GA from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Aug 15 08:04:07 1999 Subject: Small Cork Noah, If you take a 1-1/4" cork and slice it at the outside diameter of the centerdrill hole you will come up with a cork that will be 1/2" wide. You canthendrill an 1/8" hole in the center and use this, or slices of this cork if youdon't want to be just a half inch wide in the first half inch, for your firstcork. The rest of the corks can be drilled again at the edge of the center holewitha 1/8" drill for gluing purposes. This will not be seen. The handle can beroughly rounded with a rasp and then turned in a lathe or as you wouldotherwise finish it. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "Noah Roberts (jik-)" wrote: Raw materials are still the cheapest part of making a rod. Onewell known maker is fond of saying that he spends more money per rodonsandpaper than on bamboo. I know I spend more dollars per rod forgoodcork than for good bamboo. If we want to gripe about good consistentsuppliers, let's gripe about cork. I hear that. I just sent to Hook n Hackle and asked if they had corkthat was not bored because my taper is smaller then .25 at the butt.He told me that *noone* sells cork without a bore which is a bigproblem for the small tapers. That said, what would be a good way to fix this problem when I buildmy pole? from saltwein@swbell.net Sun Aug 15 08:25:17 1999 Subject: Epon/Versamid I just looked at the Bingham Home Page and I am interested in gettingmore info on this epoxy (continuing search for the perfect glue). Iwould appreciate any info available from those of you who might haveused this glue. Pot life, shelf life, consistency of hardener, colorwhen dry, heat resistance. TIA. Has anyone tried their high temperature masking tape? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from rvenneri@ulster.net Sun Aug 15 08:34:12 1999 Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:47:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid Steve Trauthwein wrote: I just looked at the Bingham Home Page and I am interested in gettingmore info on this epoxy (continuing search for the perfect glue). Iwould appreciate any info available from those of you who might haveused this glue. Pot life, shelf life, consistency of hardener, colorwhen dry, heat resistance. TIA. Has anyone tried their high temperature masking tape? Regards, SteveIndependence, MOHey Guys,while we are on the subject of glue. What are the ups and downs ofusing URAC and what are the ups and downs of using EPON. Why would onebe better than the other. Best regardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill rdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html from anglport@con2.com Sun Aug 15 08:50:12 1999 Subject: Re: bamboo "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Noah,Try Custom Tackle in Tenn. 615-684-6164. They list both 1/8" boreringsand a Struble "Ultra-fine" handle with a 3/16" bore in their latestcatalog. Beware a dealer's telling you they "don't make it". It usuallymeans only that he ain't got it or he's unaware of what's out there! I don't know whether this border-line-bends the "non-commercial"rules ofthe list, but I'm sure others are building rods too small to use 1/4" boresas well.(Sorry I called you JIK in the last message; I didn't see a nameattacheduntil I read your latest post.)Art At 06:14 PM 8/14/99 -0700, Noah Roberts (jik-) wrote:Raw materials are still the cheapest part of making a rod. Onewell known maker is fond of saying that he spends more money per rodonsandpaper than on bamboo. I know I spend more dollars per rod for goodcork than for good bamboo. If we want to gripe about good consistentsuppliers, let's gripe about cork. I hear that. I just sent to Hook n Hackle and asked if they had corkthat was not bored because my taper is smaller then .25 at the butt.He told me that *noone* sells cork without a bore which is a bigproblem for the small tapers. That said, what would be a good way to fix this problem when I buildmy pole? from leroyt@involved.com Sun Aug 15 09:17:19 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 07:16:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid Hey Guys, Sounds like an epoxy that you post heat cure like Nytex and thatits made by Shell chemical.Has anyone tried the one part polyurethane's?Leroy.....----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid Steve Trauthwein wrote: I just looked at the Bingham Home Page and I am interested in gettingmore info on this epoxy (continuing search for the perfect glue). Iwould appreciate any info available from those of you who might haveused this glue. Pot life, shelf life, consistency of hardener, colorwhen dry, heat resistance. TIA. Has anyone tried their high temperature masking tape? Regards, SteveIndependence, MOHey Guys,while we are on the subject of glue. What are the ups and downs ofusing URAC and what are the ups and downs of using EPON. Why would onebe better than the other. Best regardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill rdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 15 09:26:39 1999 with ESMTP id ;Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:26:07 +0000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid Hi Bob, I have never used URAC, but I have used EPON. I like the long open timeand the easy clean up of EPON. All you need is a gallon of whitevinegar and lots of rags. The only drawback to EPON (IMO) is the needto keep the newly glued sections absolutely straight. Otherwise you'llend up wrestling with the straightening "process". But I guess that'strue with any glue to some degree. Also, after cleaning up the extraglue you'll smell like a salad for a while! Dennis Robert Venneri wrote: Steve Trauthwein wrote: I just looked at the Bingham Home Page and I am interested in gettingmore info on this epoxy (continuing search for the perfect glue). Iwould appreciate any info available from those of you who might haveused this glue. Pot life, shelf life, consistency of hardener, colorwhen dry, heat resistance. TIA. Has anyone tried their high temperature masking tape? Regards, SteveIndependence, MOHey Guys,while we are on the subject of glue. What are the ups and downs ofusing URAC and what are the ups and downs of using EPON. Why would onebe better than the other. Best regardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill rdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from watson@cape-consult.co.uk Sun Aug 15 11:48:23 1999 Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:47:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Hardy Rod info needed Ian/Don,I'm a bit confused by this.I have a Palakona "The Deluxe" 9' complete with two tips. The number isE38359 which I think from memory is in the late 1930's. It has not beenrestored. The rings are what I would call low bells (John Cooper may beable to give a better description) and are reasonably small but definitelydo not seem to meet Don's description. Is it a different rod to the DeLuxeNo2? Both tips are the same length and are 1/2" shorter than the butt andmid sections. The tip rings are the same on both and are an opaque agate(agatine?). The butt ring (stripper?) is made of the same material and incomparison to the other rings/guides does look heavy but I believe thatthisis normal.Tim.It came to me from my father in law who I think barely used it - havingbeengiven it as a gift - hence it is complete with inner bag, alloy tube andouter bag-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Hardy Rod info needed Don, Turner's book list the De Lux as being built between 1915 and 1957 .Giventhe very small guides it is likely to be earlier then later however Hardy'sdid still contuinue with small guides untill the 1970's. If it has a numberon it let me know and I can tell you the year. Most later Hardy rods had a " Agatipe" stripper guide and tip which was , Iguess, an artificial agate. The other guides were like small stripperguides, called "fullopen bridge intermediates" by Hardy . To complicate matters , and make me sound maybe more expert then I am, Ipicked up a 1966 Hardy's catalogue today which has them listed for salesoTurner may have the production dates wrong. from my experience however I would suggest that the stripper wasoriginallyan agate imitation , probably with the colour of the agate matching thecolour of the tip. The size would be considerably smaller then would bestandard today. I have had a look in my "bits and Pieces " box andunfortunately do not have any . I have tended to use the ones I had on rodsI have built no doubt something I will regret in the future. And yes, it is very common in Hardy rods for the tip to be slightly shorter, up to 1" , then the butt section . I do not know whether it was somethingto do with the "tuning" of the rod or just the way they did it . regards Ian Kearney At 08:38 PM 6/08/99 EDT, Canerods@aol.com wrote:All, I just picked up a ~9' Hardy Palakana - "#2 The Deluxe" that is in decentshape except the stripper guide has been rewrapped and maybe replaced.The"snakes" are all ultra tiny, very skinny wire casting or stripper typeguides, the stripper is a standard Mildrum metal stripper that looks tobetoo "over-built" to be original. Anyone know what the original stripper would be and does anyone haveoneforsale? Thanks Don Burns PS - Is it normal for the rod section to be of slightly different length(both tips are the same length!) with Hardy rods? All the ferrule wrapsappear to be original and so damage seems out of the question. from channer@hubwest.com Sun Aug 15 12:00:41 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A2BEB8C0140; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:02:54 MST Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid At 09:33 AM 08/15/1999 -0400, Robert Venneri wrote: Hey Guys,while we are on the subject of glue. What are the ups and downs ofusing URAC and what are the ups and downs of using EPON. Why would onebe better than the other. Best regardsBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill rdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html Bob;Easy, Urac has a shelf life of 6 months, unless you build a lot of rods, orcan get fresh glue by the ounce, you will wind up having to throw most ofit out, also, it sets up to the point where you can't straighten thesection in about 5 minutes, maybe 10. Epon has a shelf life of 1 year, butthat is for government work, Bill Fink says he is using Epon that is 10years old and it seems to be just fine. It takes 24 hours for it to set upenough to continue working on the rod and you can straighten the sectionsfresh, then give it 3 or 4 hours to gel a little and then staighten somemore if you need to. Another downside to Urac is that if you use thepowdercatalyst that comes with it ,you will find your sections are fatter thanyou intended because of the glue. as you may be able to tell, I'm sold onEpon.John from rmoon@ida.net Sun Aug 15 12:10:33 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material I usedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot Life ismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year period. The resin will solidify after a time, but immersion of both components in apan of hot water will restore the consistency and even allow a littleeasier spreading. Color is clear plane well and there are no gluelines. Heat resistance is excellent since this is primarily a heatcured epoxy. I have forgotten, off hand, the temperatures I used, butsomething between 200 and 300 degrees for less than an hour usuallycures it. The only disadvantage I have found is that it is fairlyviscous and requires a little more effort and care to spread. It alsoseems to stiffen the rod a little more than Resorcinol, but that is asubjective call. No data to support it. The biggest downside is cleanup. It takes more time and care to remove the glue than most otheradhesives. I will let the list know if I get an answer from Bingham. In any case I am headed to Salt Lake in a week and will stop and check.Ralph Incidentally, I think every one on the rod list knows what I think ofUrac. from mrj@aa.net Sun Aug 15 16:48:25 1999 Subject: Problem running Bruce Conners Hexrod program boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEE72C.5AF78220" 00000000AA7800AC50A7D2119BA200A0C921145EE4CE2400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEE72C.5AF78220 I have Bruce Connors HexRod application but I am unable to make itcalculatethe stress figures. As I read the instruction, if I input the dimensions, itshould calculate the stress figures. It appears to work the other way (i.e.if I enter stress numbers it will calculate the rod dimensions) but it willnot figure out the stress numbers. I have also gotten a "type mismatch"dialog box. When you click OK Hexrod closes. suggestions? Martin Jensen ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEE72C.5AF78220 name="winmail.dat" filename="winmail.dat" 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 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEE72C.5AF78220-- from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Sun Aug 15 19:29:02 1999 (5.5.2448.0) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] Like Darrell, I also delete any unexplained attachments, especially when Idon't know the sender very well. It might have blown your mind but howdo Iknow it won't blow my computer. I don't intend to offend with thesecomments, it's just that after catching "Happy '99" I'm a lot morecautious. Regards Mike Roberts -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] I don't know what is in the attachment you sent to everyone on the list,butit is my practice not to open any attachments unless I know the person andthere is an explanation of what it is that you are sending. A little whileback, the happy99 virus invaded many of the list members computers (notminethankfully because of my standard practice) but if it is something we'dliketo look at, you really should tell what it is in the body of the message... Darrell Lee-----Original Message----- Subject: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: this blew my mind] from jik@foxinternet.net Mon Aug 16 01:26:24 1999 Subject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems to me that the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a "timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been used exclusivly it seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varieties can grow indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say 20'? from chris@artistree.com Mon Aug 16 01:35:51 1999 Subject: Re: Small Cork A novel idea indeed, but how about filling in the hole with cork dust &glue or a similar substance such as wood putty and then redrilling thehole.-- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Steve Trauthwein wrote: Noah, If you take a 1-1/4" cork and slice it at the outside diameter of thecenterdrill hole you will come up with a cork that will be 1/2" wide. You canthendrill an 1/8" hole in the center and use this, or slices of this cork if youdon't want to be just a half inch wide in the first half inch, for yourfirstcork. The rest of the corks can be drilled again at the edge of the center holewitha 1/8" drill for gluing purposes. This will not be seen. The handle can beroughly rounded with a rasp and then turned in a lathe or as you wouldotherwise finish it. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Mon Aug 16 05:53:45 1999 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: killer rod (fwd) I posted this about a week back and several people have emailed me askingabout the taper. Sorry for not replying sooner but I seem to have caught acold or flu or something that is laying the most energenic people low soyou can imagine what it does to those of us who are bone idle by nature,I've hardly even switched on my computer and I now have lots of email.Anyhow, I spoke to the maker of the rod in question and Peter has advisedme it wasn't actually a Gillum 506 he sent me but was in fact the Payne 8' 3 piece #6 on page 54 of "The Lovely Reed".If anybody interested in this still needs the taper please let me know andI'll send it on. Tony /**************************************************/ A Tasmanian bamboo rodmaker called me today and regailed me with talesofhis fishing trip to Cairns in Northern Queensland where he showed somelocals how things are done with a Gillum 506.Peter says he caught 5 Barramundi, 3 Mangrove Jack and several GiantTrevali which I think some people have taken to call Permit over a prettyrelaxed 2 days of bamboo flexing fishfesting.Mike Roberts and I cast this rod a few months back using a DT#6 and itwasa bit disapointing until I put a WF#8 on. Mike's a better distance casterthan I and he consistantly cast not just to the backing but about 20 feet ofbacking as well. It's a slow rod but but can really throw a line. Tony /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from mschaffer@mindspring.com Mon Aug 16 06:11:59 1999 Subject: Fitting reel seats Got a topic for discussion, if you guys don't mind.I'm at the stage where I need to fit my reel seat to my "rod" and waswondering if I should turn the end of the rod round with my lathe, or openup the reel seat insert enough to slide over the hex shape of the end of therod. If I leave the rod hex shaped, I may be cutting it real close if I openup the insert enough to fit the hex. I have the cork already fitted, but, ofcourse, not glued.Thanks for your help, Mike from channer@hubwest.com Mon Aug 16 06:35:06 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A7F4103B0110; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 05:37:24 MST Subject: Re: Fitting reel seats At 07:18 AM 08/16/1999 -0400, Mike Shaffer wrote:Got a topic for discussion, if you guys don't mind.I'm at the stage where I need to fit my reel seat to my "rod" and waswondering if I should turn the end of the rod round with my lathe, or openup the reel seat insert enough to slide over the hex shape of the end oftherod. If I leave the rod hex shaped, I may be cutting it real close if I openup the insert enough to fit the hex. I have the cork already fitted, but, ofcourse, not glued.Thanks for your help, Mike Mike;Turn the end of your rod down to the diameter of the hole in the filler,usually 3/8". If your filler is a highly figured burl or fiddleback, thechances of breaking it while attempting to drill it out are very great. Therod is under very little, if any, stress at the reel seat, so you won'thurt it a bit by turning it down.John from brendan@fl.net.au Mon Aug 16 07:26:56 1999 Subject: Unsubscribe types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_2486451==_.ALT" --=====================_2486451==_.ALT Please take me off the mailing list. Regards Brendan F Sforcina --=====================_2486451==_.ALT Please take me off the mailing list. Regards Brendan F Sforcina --=====================_2486451==_.ALT-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Aug 16 08:40:37 1999 Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:40:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Other bamboo boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BEE7CB.17C02BC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BEE7CB.17C02BC0 Noah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe one will only learn by =trying. I have planted six different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, =Congesta, Vivax, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in =southcentral PA (a zone 6a climate). All these species I'm told, are =hardy down to around -10F so they should do alright. I don't know if =any of my plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I don't =really care in the end. I just love to see the stuff, and want to = My own plants were about four feet tall when I planted them this past =April, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six to ten feet =tall. Each fall the plants will send out new rhizomes, and each spring =the resulting new shoots should increase in diameter and height until =the plant reaches maturity (about four-to-six years, depending upon =species, climate and soil). The culms that may be useful would be those =emerging only from the mature plant, but I understand that even these =will need to become at least four years old to develop their maximum =wall thickness and strength. Some sort of marking system on the culms =themselves needs to be devised in order to keep track of each year's ="production." As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the determining =factors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing conditions): the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve feet)the diameter of the culmthe distance between nodes and their own growth characteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in outer =wall. You mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three varieties =(Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down to +5F. =That is, although the plant structure may loose its leaves after =enduring such temps, and some culms may die back, the root system would=survive to send up healthy new shoots in the following spring. And, =too, I believe that the beautiful black color of the Nigra is probably =only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only "skin deep." All three =of the "black" bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent "wood" = Apparently there are several species of bamboo that develop excellent ="wood" or "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in our = have read that many of the tall "timber" species do not develop their =maximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced to = other ways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed around with their=own little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems to me that =the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a "timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been used exclusivly it =seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varieties can grow =indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BEE7CB.17C02BC0 Noah, I'm interested inthe = species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta, Vivax, Rubromarginata, = species I'm told, are hardy down to around -10F so they should do = I don't know if any of my plants will develop culms suitable for = develop some groves on my property for aesthetic reasons. = My own plantswere = feet tall when I planted them this past April, and all sent up new = new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting new shoots should increase = (about = useful would be those emerging only from the mature plant, but I = even these will need to become at least four years old to develop their = "production." As to thesuitability = given species, I suppose the determining factors would be (in addition = own, local, growing conditions): depth of the groove (sulcus) between each node, number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve =feet) of the culm characteristics elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in outer =wall. You mention the = bamboo, but I have read that all three varieties (Nigra, Bory and Henon) = structure may loose its leaves after enduring such temps, and some culms= back, the root system would survive to send up healthy new shoots in the = the Nigra is probably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only = Apparently thereare = species of bamboo that develop excellent "wood" or = qualities, but not all of them are hardy in our somewhat northern = have read thatmany = "timber" species do not develop their maximum strength, wall = and height when introduced to increasingly northern climates--even = may thrive well in ways. Are there anyother = bamboo? Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu=<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bamboo the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a = exclusivly it seems.Also, has anyone tried to grow their = Some varieties can grow indownright cold weather...take Black = bamboo culm of say 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BEE7CB.17C02BC0-- from leroyt@involved.com Mon Aug 16 09:29:59 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:29:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Other bamboo boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEE7B9.D07754C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEE7B9.D07754C0 List, What am unpleasant surprise to read about Andy Royer. Have been =doing business with him since he started. He sort of spoiled some of us = I have not physically checked this out but have looked at his site, =there is a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planning to= Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery, www.harborside.com/bamboo The web pageshow =that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of different sizes = Leroy................. Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:38 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo Noah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe one will only learn by =trying. I have planted six different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, =Congesta, Vivax, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in =southcentral PA (a zone 6a climate). All these species I'm told, are =hardy down to around -10F so they should do alright. I don't know if =any of my plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I don't =really care in the end. I just love to see the stuff, and want to = My own plants were about four feet tall when I planted them this past =April, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six to ten feet =tall. Each fall the plants will send out new rhizomes, and each spring =the resulting new shoots should increase in diameter and height until =the plant reaches maturity (about four-to-six years, depending upon =species, climate and soil). The culms that may be useful would be those =emerging only from the mature plant, but I understand that even these =will need to become at least four years old to develop their maximum =wall thickness and strength. Some sort of marking system on the culms =themselves needs to be devised in order to keep track of each year's ="production." As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the determining =factors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing conditions): the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve feet)the diameter of the culmthe distance between nodes and their own growth characteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in outer =wall. You mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three =varieties (Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down =to +5F. That is, although the plant structure may loose its leaves =after enduring such temps, and some culms may die back, the root system=would survive to send up healthy new shoots in the following spring. =And, too, I believe that the beautiful black color of the Nigra is =probably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only "skin deep." =All three of the "black" bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent = Apparently there are several species of bamboo that develop excellent ="wood" or "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in our = have read that many of the tall "timber" species do not develop their =maximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced to = other ways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed around with =their own little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-) Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems to me that =the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a "timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been used exclusivly it =seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varieties can grow =indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEE7B9.D07754C0 List, What am unpleasant = He sort of spoiled some of us as we were able to go pick through his = I have not physically = but have looked at his site, there is a nursery growing bamboo on the = coast and am planning to go down there. Tradewinds BambooNursery, =www.harborside.com/bamboo = page show that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of = Leroy................. ----- Original Message ----- HARMS = Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 = AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo Noah, I'm interested in= different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta, Vivax, = love to see the stuff, and want to develop some groves on my property = aesthetic reasons. My own plantswere = feet tall when I planted them this past April, and all sent up new = new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting new shoots should increase= (about = useful would be those emerging only from the mature plant, but I = that even these will need to become at least four years old to develop = system = culms themselves needs to be devised in order to keep track of each = "production." As to the = given species, I suppose the determining factors would be (in addition = one's own, local, growing conditions): depth of the groove (sulcus) between each node, feet) diameter of the culm distance between nodes and their own = characteristics wall. You mention the= but I have read that all three varieties (Nigra, Bory and Henon) would = may loose its leaves after enduring such temps, and some culms may die= the root system would survive to send up healthy new shoots in the = Apparently there= "timber" qualities, = all of them are hardy in our somewhat northern climates (say, north of = have read thatmany = "timber" species do not develop their maximum strength, wall thickness= height when introduced to increasingly northern climates--even though = thrive well in ways. Are there anyother = bamboo? Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu=<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bamboo varieties can grow indownright cold weather...take Black for = of say 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BEE7B9.D07754C0-- from darrelll@earthlink.net Mon Aug 16 10:30:54 1999 Subject: Re: Other bamboo boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE7C1.A04F2B80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE7C1.A04F2B80 Warning! This story may not be appropriate content for the readers of =this list, please feel free to delete without reading, but please do not =dis' writer as you have been forewarned... Two years ago, I was on the big island of Hawaii for a two week vacation =and decided to backpack to the Waimanu Valley, via Waipo Valley. I was =traveling solo and it was to be a 44 mile round trip walkabout. After =hiking down to Waipo Valley, I was stopped by several locals and asked =where I was going and told that I should not go by myself to Waimanu =Valley as about 20+ locals have been partying and getting high there for =a month straight... it was late and getting dark and I had planned to =get water at Waipo Valley but the water was all very disgusting at the =mouth of the stream as it dumps into the ocean. I would have had to go =on a 1-2 mile detour to get water from a decent side spring so I opted =to continue without water up to the top of the pali (mountain) about a =3,000 gain climb out of the valley. No water to be found, it was now =getting very dark but I was fortunate that there were guava trees =everywhere so I ate guavas for food and water. (sorry this is so long) I had entered a bamboo rain forest and the trail had faded away in the =darkness! the bamboo was soooo tall... over a hundred feet tall, it was =so dense that you cold not see the sky. I came across several other =mushroom and fungi, one of which I was 99.5% was a white fungi that the=chinese eat... but since I was not 100% sure I did not attempt to eat =it... I then set up my tarp for shelter and slept among the giant =bamboos in a light rain. In the morning, I had a few more guavas and =decided to vary my breakfast so I foraged and found and ate some fresh =bamboo shoots that was absolutely delicious... crunchy and very mild =taste! (I'm chinese and have only eaten canned shoots and have never =seen them fresh or growing before). All the while, it was so incredible =to be alone in the wilderness and able to sustain myself from the land. =The bamboo... a marvel, so straight and tall and blocking out the =morning light... I had only experienced such dense forest growth once =before and that was in Big Sur California amonst the giant redwoods, = The bamboo... so tall and straight, I immediately thought of split cane =rods... and flutes... at the start of my little journey I had met a man =that made some incredible flutes from the bamboo for a living... anyway, =since that trip I've wondered many times how that bamboo would work for=split cane rods... the nodes were small the cane must be strong and =flexible to go so tall. Next time I go back, I'll have to ship some back = I decided not to go all the way to my destination, but to continue on =only until I found water. Upon finding one of the many mountain streams =a waterfalls, I tanked up headed and then back to civilization... on to =the Kona Coffee festival, a oceanfront condo in Kona, hanging with the =local bro's at the beach, swimming with the sea turtles and snorkeling =and seeing dozens of beautiful species of fish... Hawaii is a =paradise... the locals adopted me and each day they would throw net some =fish for breakfast (no fishing licenses required, throw nets allowed) =and if I wanted to eat, I would have to help them catch or clean the =fish... the locals would come and gather at this one beach daily and =each would contribute something to eat and we would hang out and "talk =story" all day. Some would make baskets or leis to sell to tourists to =raise cash to buy beer... many incredible fruits would appear, guavas, =star fruit, coconuts, mangos, pineapples and more... I was able to =contribute beer, store bought food and more beer so I was welcomed with=open arms (you can't buy beer with food stamps) as most of my "bras", =that's Hawaiian for brothers, were on govt subsidies. Hawaii I believe =is the number one welfare state since the loss of the sugar cane =industry to cheaper foreign sources. I'm planning to go back and ship some of the bamboo back to see if it it =might be usable for cane rods. The climate must be ideal for growing =bamboo in that tropical paradise. But heck, even if the cane is =unusable, the journey is worth the trip. The Kona coffees were incredible... I even gathered some wild coffee =berries (called cherries) to try my hand at roasting my own... but alas, =didn't have the time to try... I sampled dozens of fabulous Kona =coffees, but that's another story... for the javaheads, check out = I gotta think that there are other bamboos that could be used for the =production of cane rods and maybe it might be in our own backyards... so =to speak... -----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 6:47 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo Noah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe one will only learn = Congesta, Vivax, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in =southcentral PA (a zone 6a climate). All these species I'm told, are =hardy down to around -10F so they should do alright. I don't know if =any of my plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I don't =really care in the end. I just love to see the stuff, and want to = My own plants were about four feet tall when I planted them this =past April, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six to ten =feet tall. Each fall the plants will send out new rhizomes, and each =spring the resulting new shoots should increase in diameter and height =until the plant reaches maturity (about four-to-six years, depending =upon species, climate and soil). The culms that may be useful would be =those emerging only from the mature plant, but I understand that even =these will need to become at least four years old to develop their =maximum wall thickness and strength. Some sort of marking system onthe =culms themselves needs to be devised in order to keep track of each =year's "production." As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the =determining factors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing =conditions): the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve feet)the diameter of the culmthe distance between nodes and their own growth characteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in =outer wall. You mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three =varieties (Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down =to +5F. That is, although the plant structure may loose its leaves =after enduring such temps, and some culms may die back, the root system=would survive to send up healthy new shoots in the following spring. =And, too, I believe that the beautiful black color of the Nigra is =probably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only "skin deep." =All three of the "black" bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent = Apparently there are several species of bamboo that develop =excellent "wood" or "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in = have read that many of the tall "timber" species do not develop =their maximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced to = other ways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed around with =their own little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-) Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems to me =that the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice =lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a ="timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been used exclusivly it =seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varieties can =grow indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp =is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE7C1.A04F2B80 Warning!This = be appropriate content for the readers of this list, please feel free to = forewarned... Two yearsago, = big island of Hawaii for a two week vacation and decided to backpack to = Waimanu Valley, via Waipo Valley. I was traveling solo and it was to be = mile round trip walkabout. After hiking down to Waipo Valley, I was = several locals and asked where I was going and told that I should not go = and I had planned to get water at Waipo Valley but the water was all = disgusting at the mouth of the stream as it dumps into the ocean. I = had to go on a 1-2 mile detour to get water from a decent side spring so = to continue without water up to the top of the pali (mountain) about a = ate guavas for food and water. (sorry this is so long) I had entered a bamboo rain = trail had faded away in the darkness! the bamboo was soooo tall... over = hundred feet tall, it was so dense that you cold not see the sky. I came = several other mushroom and fungi, one of which I was 99.5% was a white = that the chinese eat... but since I was not 100% sure I did not attempt = it... I then set up my tarp for shelter and slept among the giant = light rain. In the morning, I had a few more guavas and decided to vary = breakfast so I foraged and found and ate some fresh bamboo shoots that = absolutely delicious... crunchy and very mild taste! (I'm chinese and = eaten canned shoots and have never seen them fresh or growing before). = while, it was so incredible to be alone in the wilderness and able to = myself from the land. The bamboo... a marvel, so straight and tall and = out the morning light... I had only experienced such dense forest growth = before and that was in Big Sur California amonst the giant redwoods, = majestic and magical place. The bamboo... so tall and = immediately thought of split cane rods... and flutes... at the start of = little journey I had met a man that made some incredible flutes from the = would work for split cane rods... the nodes were small the cane must be = and flexible to go so tall. Next time I go back, I'll have to ship some = my home in California. I decided not to go all the = destination, but to continue on only until I found water. Upon finding = the many mountain streams a waterfalls, I tanked up headed and then back= Kona, hanging with the local bro's at the beach, swimming with the sea = and snorkeling and seeing dozens of beautiful species of fish... Hawaii = paradise... the locals adopted me and each day they would throw net some = to eat, I would have to help them catch or clean the fish... the locals = come and gather at this one beach daily and each would contribute = eat and we would hang out and "talk story" all day. Some would= baskets or leis to sell to tourists to raise cash to buy beer... many = fruits would appear, guavas, star fruit, coconuts, mangos, pineapples = more... I was able to contribute beer, store bought food and more beer = welcomed with open arms (you can't buy beer with food stamps) as mostof = Hawaii I believe is the number one welfare state since the loss of the = cane industry to cheaper foreign sources. I'm planning to go back and = the bamboo back to see if it it might be usable for cane rods. The = be ideal for growing bamboo in that tropical paradise. But heck, even if = cane is unusable, the journey is worth the trip. The Kona coffees were = gathered some wild coffee berries (called cherries) to try my hand at = my own... but alas, didn't have the time to try... I sampled dozens of = Kona coffees, but that's another story... for the javaheads, check out =www.konaweb.com I gotta think that there are = that could be used for the production of cane rods and maybe it might be = own backyards... so to speak... Darrell -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bambooNoah, I'm interestedin = different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta, Vivax, = culms suitable for building, but I don't really care in the = just love to see the stuff, and want to develop some groves on my = My own plants= feet tall when I planted them this past April, and all sent up new = send out new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting new shoots = (about = understand that even these will need to become at least four years = marking system on the culms themselves needs to be devised in order = track of each year's "production." As to the = given species, I suppose the determining factors would be (in = one's own, local, growing conditions): depth of the groove (sulcus) between each node, = feet) diameter of the culm distance between nodes and their own = characteristics wall. You mention "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three varieties = although the plant structure may loose its leaves after enduring = and some culms may die back, the root system would survive to send = the beautiful black color of the Nigra is probably only an attribute = Apparentlythere = "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in our = have read that= tall "timber" species do not develop their maximum = thickness and height when introduced to increasingly northern = though they may thrive well in ways. Are there any = bamboo? Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bamboo the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make= = has been used exclusivly it seems.Also, has anyone tried = weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp is = 20'? ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BEE7C1.A04F2B80-- from drodgers@ddaccess.net Mon Aug 16 10:46:21 1999 ddasvr1.ddaccess.comwith SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) Subject: Re: Other bamboo boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DA_01BEE7DC.E4035E80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01BEE7DC.E4035E80 Leroy, Your stqtement is interesting. I questioned Andy if the stock that he =was currently selling a few months back was picked over. I was assured = what they wanted. Dan-----Original Message-----From: leroy teeple ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:32 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo List, What am unpleasant surprise to read about Andy Royer. Have =been doing business with him since he started. He sort of spoiled some =of us as we were able to go pick through his stock and get what we = I have not physically checked this out but have looked at his site, =there is a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planning to= Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery, www.harborside.com/bamboo The webpage =show that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of different =sizes for sale also.Leroy................. Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:38 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo Noah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe one will only =learn by trying. I have planted six different species of Phyllostachys =(Nuda, Congesta, Vivax, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) =here in southcentral PA (a zone 6a climate). All these species I'm =told, are hardy down to around -10F so they should do alright. I don't =know if any of my plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I =don't really care in the end. I just love to see the stuff, and want to = My own plants were about four feet tall when I planted them this =past April, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six to ten =feet tall. Each fall the plants will send out new rhizomes, and each =spring the resulting new shoots should increase in diameter and height =until the plant reaches maturity (about four-to-six years, depending =upon species, climate and soil). The culms that may be useful would be =those emerging only from the mature plant, but I understand that even =these will need to become at least four years old to develop their =maximum wall thickness and strength. Some sort of marking system onthe =culms themselves needs to be devised in order to keep track of each =year's "production." As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the =determining factors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing =conditions): the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve =feet)the diameter of the culmthe distance between nodes and their own growth =characteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in =outer wall. You mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three =varieties (Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down =to +5F. That is, although the plant structure may loose its leaves =after enduring such temps, and some culms may die back, the root system=would survive to send up healthy new shoots in the following spring. =And, too, I believe that the beautiful black color of the Nigra is =probably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only "skin deep." =All three of the "black" bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent = Apparently there are several species of bamboo that develop =excellent "wood" or "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in = have read that many of the tall "timber" species do not develop =their maximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced to = other ways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed around =with their own little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-) Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems to me =that the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice =lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a ="timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been used exclusivly =it seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varieties =can grow indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum =temp is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say =20'? ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01BEE7DC.E4035E80 Leroy, Your stqtement is interesting. I = if the stock that he was currently selling a few months back was picked = was assured by Andy that no one was allowed to go through his stock and = what they wanted. Dan -----Original = HARMS1@prodigy.net = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bambooList, What am unpleasant= started. He sort of spoiled some of us as we were able to go pick = I have not physically = out but have looked at his site, there is a nursery growing bamboo = Oregon coast and am planning to go down there. Tradewinds Bamboo =Nursery, www.harborside.com/bamboo = web page show that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of= different sizes for sale also.Leroy................. ----- Original Message ----- = HARMS Sent: Monday, August 16, = AMSubject: Re: Other =bamboo Noah, I'm = planted six different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta, = Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in = plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I don't = groves on my property for aesthetic reasons. = My ownplants = four feet tall when I planted them this past April, and all sent = plants will send out new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting = shoots should increase in diameter and height until the plant = maturity (about four-to-six years, depending upon species, = from the mature plant, but I understand that even these will = become at least four years old to develop their maximum wall = "production." As to the = any given species, I suppose the determining factors would be = addition to one's own, local, growing =conditions): feet) culm = characteristics thickness of fibers in outer wall. You mention= "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three = (Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down to = after enduring such temps, and some culms may die back, the root = Nigra is probably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only = bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent "wood" = Apparently = several species of bamboo that develop excellent = "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in = have read = the tall "timber" species do not develop their maximum = strength, wall thickness and height when introduced to = ways. Are thereany = builders out there who have messed around with their own little = of bamboo? Bill rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= bamboo the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would = why Tonkin has been used exclusivly it seems.Also, = indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, = say =20'? ------=_NextPart_000_00DA_01BEE7DC.E4035E80-- from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Mon Aug 16 12:13:56 1999 Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:13:46 -0400 Subject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life When I made my first rod, I decided to go with resorcinol, out of respect much larger quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half-quart cans.That'll make a lot of rods! I'd like to be able to use it up, or at least asubtantial portion of it - how long can I keep this stuff around? I'veheard it keeps only a year, but your experience with epon has mewondering. -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon [SMTP:rmoon@ida.net]Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:58 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material I usedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot Life ismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year period. from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Aug 16 14:54:59 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Other bamboo boundary="------------B926699EA1DB98F5F74A6428" --------------B926699EA1DB98F5F74A6428 This is probably one of the reasons that Royer cannot be bothered.There have been numerous threads on home grown cane and experimentingwith it.Is $10 for a lump of genuine Tonkin cane to build a rod too expensive?None of the list complain about spending $2 per cork ring.Terry leroy teeple wrote: List, What am unpleasant surprise to read about Andy Royer. Have beendoing business with him since he started. He sort of spoiled some ofus as we were able to go pick through his stock and get what wewanted.I have not physically checked this out but have looked at hissite, there is a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and amplanning to go down there.Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery,www.harborside.com/bamboo The web page show that he has some toolsforworking bamboo and poles of different sizes for salealso.Leroy................. ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:38 AMSubject: Re: Other bambooNoah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe onewill only learn by trying. I have planted six differentspecies of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta, Vivax,Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here insouthcentral PA (a zone 6a climate). All these species I'mtold, are hardy down to around -10F so they should doalright. I don't know if any of my plants will developculms suitable for building, but I don't really care in theend. I just love to see the stuff, and want to develop somegroves on my property for aesthetic reasons. My own plantswere about four feet tall when I planted them this pastApril, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six toten feet tall. Each fall the plants will send out newrhizomes, and each spring the resulting new shoots shouldincrease in diameter and height until the plant reachesmaturity (about four-to-six years, depending upon species,climate and soil). The culms that may be useful would bethose emerging only from the mature plant, but I understandthat even these will need to become at least four years oldto develop their maximum wall thickness and strength. Somesort of marking system on the culms themselves needs to bedevised in order to keep track of each year's"production." As to the suitability of any given species, Isuppose the determining factors would be (in addition toone's own, local, growing conditions): the depth of thegroove (sulcus) between each node, the number ofbranches at each node (below ten to twelve feet) thediameter of the culm the distance between nodes andtheir own growth characteristics the density, elasticityand overall thickness of fibers in outer wall. You mentionthe "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three varieties(Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. onlydown to +5F. That is, although the plant structure mayloose its leaves after enduring such temps, and some culmsmay die back, the root system would survive to send uphealthy new shoots in the following spring. And, too, Ibelieve that the beautiful black color of the Nigra isprobably only an attribute of the enamel--that is, only"skin deep." All three of the "black" bamboos, however,are reputed to have excellent "wood"characteristics. Apparently there are several species ofbamboo that develop excellent "wood" or "timber" qualities,but not all of them are hardy in our somewhat northernclimates (say, north of Zone 6b). And, again, Ihave readthat many of the tall "timber" species do not develop theirmaximum strength, wall thickness and height when introducedto increasingly northern climates--even though they maythrive well inother ways. Are there any other builders outthere who have messed around with their own little groves ofbamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-) Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo?Seems to me that the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make avery nice lookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at onesite as a "timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been usedexclusivly it seems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Somevarieties can grow indownright cold weather...take Black for instance,minimum temp is 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culmof say 20'? --------------B926699EA1DB98F5F74A6428 This is probably one of the reasons that Royer cannot be bothered.There have been numerous threads on home grown cane andexperimentingwith it.Is $10 for a lump of genuine Tonkin cane to build a rod too expensive?None of the list complain about spending $2 per cork ring.Terry leroy teeple wrote: List, doingbusiness with him since he started. He sort of spoiled some of us as wewere able to go pick through his stock and get what wewanted.Ihave not physically checked this out but have looked at his site, thereis a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planning to godownthere.TradewindsBamboo Nursery, www.harborside.com/bambooThe web page show that he has some tools for working bamboo and polesofdifferent sizes for sale also.Leroy................. ----- Original Message ----- From:WILLIAMA HARMS ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:38AM Subject: Re: Other bamboo interested in the same thing, but I believe one will only learn by I have planted six different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda, Congesta,Vivax, Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in southcentral my plants will develop culms suitable for building, but I don't really some groves on my property for aesthetic own plants were about four feet tall when I planted them this past April, Each fall the plants will send out new rhizomes, and each spring theresultingnew shoots should increase in diameter and height until the plant reachesmaturity (about four-to-six years, depending upon species, climate and from the mature plant, but I understand that even these will need tobecomeat least four years old to develop their maximum wall thickness and Some sort of marking system on the culms themselves needs to be devisedin order to keep track of each year's to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the determining factorswould be (in addition to one's own, local, growing the depth of the groove (sulcus) between each the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelve the distance between nodes and their owngrowth the density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in outer mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all three varieties (Nigra, is, although the plant structure may loose its leaves after enduring suchtemps, and some culms may die back, the root system would survive tosend that the beautiful black color of the Nigra is probably only an attribute "black" bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent "wood" there are several species of bamboo that develop excellent "wood" or"timber"qualities, but not all of them are hardy in our somewhat northern climates read that many of the tall "timber" species do not develop their maximumstrength, wall thickness and height when introduced to increasinglynorthernclimates--even though they may thrive well inother there any other builders out there who have messed around with their own Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-)<jik@foxinternet.net> <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, August 15, 199911:34 PMSubject: Otherbamboo thatthe"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a very nice looking seems. growindownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimum temp is 0 20'? --------------B926699EA1DB98F5F74A6428-- from Bryan_Flandro@mtn.3com.com Mon Aug 16 17:20:51 1999 1998)) id872567CF.007B0228 ; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:23:34 -0600 Subject: Unsubscribe Please take me off the mailing list. Reguards.. Bryan Flandro... from anglport@con2.com Mon Aug 16 17:32:56 1999 Subject: Re: Fitting reel seats Well, Mike, I see no one else has responded yet so I'll jump in. The onlyinfo I can give you is that I was surprised to see that someone on aproduction rod HAD turned down the blank. I suppose there's enough cane atthose stations that you won't have to worry about weakening the thing.Certainly if you make the wood filler too thin-walled it's likely to splitunder who-knows-what conditions.See what else you hear, but I think you'll wind up turning the blank.After all, a Fuji graphite seat looks REAL crappy on a cane rod !Art At 07:18 AM 8/16/99 -0400, Mike Shaffer wrote:Got a topic for discussion, if you guys don't mind.I'm at the stage where I need to fit my reel seat to my "rod" and waswondering if I should turn the end of the rod round with my lathe, or openup the reel seat insert enough to slide over the hex shape of the end oftherod. If I leave the rod hex shaped, I may be cutting it real close if I openup the insert enough to fit the hex. I have the cork already fitted, but, ofcourse, not glued.Thanks for your help, Mike from fiveside@net-gate.com Mon Aug 16 17:54:55 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24489 for; Subject: Adhesives To the List,On reading George's neat piece in TPF I too wonder if there maybe isn'tsomething unique and specially difficult about glueing up our canecomparedto other more conventional materials. It was at least ten years (Twolabradors) back that I repaired a grease-soaked busted wood steak knifehandle with epon. That knife has been through the dish-washer cycle atleasttwice a week ever since. Makes you wonder. BillPS: No we don't eat steak that often. from channer@hubwest.com Mon Aug 16 17:58:56 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A82745C012A; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:00:55 MST Subject: Re: Other bamboo At 09:38 AM 08/16/1999 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Noah, I just love to see the stuff, and want to develop somegroves on my property for aesthetic reasons. Each fall the plants willsend out new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting new shoots shouldincrease in diameter and height until the plant reaches maturity "" As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose the determiningfactors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing conditions): the depth of the groove (sulcus) between each node, the number ofbranches at each node (below ten to twelve feet) the diameter of theculm the distance between nodes and their own growth characteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers in outerwall. "" "" """" """" And, again, I "" species do not developtheir maximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced toincreasingly northern climates--even though they may thrive well in otherways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed aroundwith their own little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----Bill;I hope you investigated which species of bamboo that you have planted arethe invasive type, some kinds of bamboo will work you to death to keepthem from spreading all over the county. When I was a boy we had a retiredgentleman down the street who thought it would be nice to have a grove ofbamboo along his back fence. It turned into a full time job for him to keepit out of his neighbors yards. When he died and the house passed to newowners I heard that it took a back hoe and dump truck a full day to get itall out and they had to bring in 3 loads of fill to repair the damage. Justa thought.John from channer@hubwest.com Mon Aug 16 18:01:29 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A8D446A012A; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:03:48 MST Subject: Re: Other bamboo At 07:34 AM 08/16/1999 -0700, leroy teeple wrote:I have not physically checked this out but have looked at his site,there is a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planningtogo down there. Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery,www.harborside.com/bamboo Theweb page show that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of LeRoy;Read his post again, he says he is merely taking a break for a few months,not that he is quitting selling Tonkin completely. While I am sure it willadd considerably to your cost, you can still get the same bamboo fromRussGoooding and George Maurer.John from landeen@valley-internet.net Mon Aug 16 18:50:18 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life Bob Clark from Lewiston, ID a long time rod builder uses DAP WeldwoodPlastic Resin. You simply mix the powder with water at whateverconsistencyyou want and glue away. You can work on straightening for at least an hourafter binding. I have built 4 rods so far using this glue and it seems towork well. I was wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I haveneverseen it mentioned.-- ---Original Message----- Subject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life When I made my first rod, I decided to go with resorcinol, out of respect amuch larger quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half-quart cans.That'll make a lot of rods! I'd like to be able to use it up, or at leastasubtantial portion of it - how long can I keep this stuff around? I'veheard it keeps only a year, but your experience with epon has mewondering. -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon [SMTP:rmoon@ida.net]Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:58 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material I usedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot Life ismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year period. from jpsnbs@erols.com Mon Aug 16 19:17:36 1999 , Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life I too use DAP Plastic Weldwood and I know of one other rodmakerpersonallywho uses it. It is a UF glue and is user friendly. I have used Resorcinoland I still use it on occasion. I have used Epoxy and I didn't like workingwith it. I will stick with the DAP Plastic and Resorcinol. The DAPproduct, I believe, is essentially the same as URAC, but don't take my wordon it.Joe Swam -----Original Message----- ; saltwein@swbell.net Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life Bob Clark from Lewiston, ID a long time rod builder uses DAP WeldwoodPlastic Resin. You simply mix the powder with water at whateverconsistencyyou want and glue away. You can work on straightening for at least anhourafter binding. I have built 4 rods so far using this glue and it seems towork well. I was wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I haveneverseen it mentioned.-- ---Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor Cc: Rodmakers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:36 PMSubject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life When I made my first rod, I decided to go with resorcinol, out of respect amuch larger quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half- quartcans.That'll make a lot of rods! I'd like to be able to use it up, or at leastasubtantial portion of it - how long can I keep this stuff around? I'veheard it keeps only a year, but your experience with epon has mewondering. -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon [SMTP:rmoon@ida.net]Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:58 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material I usedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot Life ismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year period. from jik@foxinternet.net Mon Aug 16 19:27:16 1999 0700 Subject: Re: Other bamboo I asked the local chapter of ABS a couple of questions and he appearsto know exactly what why and how long. Here was his answer: ------------------------------Tonkin Cane or Tea Stick Bamboo are the common names for Arundinariaamabilis.The culms (canes) are straight, thick walled with non-prominent nodes. Itis the non-prominent nodes that make it usefull for fishing rods. Fly rodsare made by spliting the canes into strips and after trimming them,assembling 6 pieces togeather and binding them with thread. Another bamboo species that would work is Phyllostachys rubromarginata. It is more cold hardy than A. amabilis (10 degrees F.) The rubromarginata iscold hardy to -10 degrees F. It is noted for its good quality wood and edible shoots. Tests in Alabama showed it to be superior in culm production. I do not think Phyllostachys nigra (black bamboo) would work well. Itis not as strong and the nodes are to prominent. You can buy tonkin cane bamboo at Bamboo Gardens of Washington which isin Redmond (425) 868-5166 or Bamboo Hardwoods, Inc. which is on 4th Ave.South by Spokan Street. (206) 264-2414 Tonkin Cane is one of the few bamboospecies that can be purchases dryed and cured. I do not think the quality is great. Most of the high quality canes are retained for domestic production in the country of origin. Bamboo grows in stages. Each spring new shoots appear and grow to aheight approx. 1/3 greater than the existing culms. At that point they deploytheir branches and grow leaves. That culm will never get any larger or taller. It will grow a thicker wall and build strength for two years butoutwardly you will see no difference. The following spring the process starts overagain. So if you start with a plant that has 4 culms 6 feet tall and 1/2 inch in dia. you should get 4 new culms next spring that will be larger in dia. andgrow to about 9 feet. The following year 8 new culms which will be larger and grow toabout 12 to 15 feet. and so on. from jik@foxinternet.net Mon Aug 16 19:31:52 1999 0700 Subject: Re: Other bamboo TERENCE ACKLAND writes:This is probably one of the reasons that Royer cannot be bothered.There have been numerous threads on home grown cane andexperimentingwith it.Is $10 for a lump of genuine Tonkin cane to build a rod too expensive?None of the list complain about spending $2 per cork ring.Terry Tell me were I can get Tonkin cane for $10 and I will stop looking for alternatives. So far *all* I have found is Dermahest and you have tobuy $100+ worth of bamboo at a minimum with him. And $2 a cork ringis pretty awful too, I have found a lot better prices thank god. from chris@artistree.com Mon Aug 16 21:22:43 1999 Subject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP I like the DAP Weldwood Plastic Resin for gluing up cork rings but havenot tried gluing up splines with it. I have to admit it looks and feelsa lot like URAC 195 without the smell and have often wondered if it'sbasically a "safe" version of the URAC. A comment was made earlier about the cost of URAC 185 and I alwaysthought I was a bit frugal by nature. A pint of URAC with shipping costsme $9.50. Lasts 6 months (longer in the fridge) and builds between 6 to8 2 tip rods. That doesn't seem like a lot of expense to me...especiallycompared to the cost of epoxies. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Landeens wrote: Bob Clark from Lewiston, ID a long time rod builder uses DAP WeldwoodPlastic Resin. You simply mix the powder with water at whateverconsistencyyou want and glue away. You can work on straightening for at least anhourafter binding. I have built 4 rods so far using this glue and it seems towork well. I was wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I haveneverseen it mentioned. from jik@foxinternet.net Tue Aug 17 03:37:30 1999 Subject: stress curves Anyone know of a good website for the theories behind stress curves?I am not getting very much out of the Garrison book and I would liketo know a bit more. from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Aug 17 05:50:46 1999 Subject: Beveling wood form? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE874.353B9460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE874.353B9460 I'm now ready to cut the bevel on my second maple form, and the first =time around I had trouble with the 60 degree scraper tool chattering and =making ridges that I had to file down. Last year someone recommended using cutting oil to prevent this. But I =have also been advised to keep the maple work surface clean. Does =anyone have advise on using cutting oil? Would you apply a thin film =with a rag before each scraping stroke? Won't the oil swell the grain? ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE874.353B9460 I'm now ready to cut the bevel onmy = maple form, and the first time around I had trouble with the 60 degree = tool chattering and making ridges that I had to file down. Last year someone recommendedusing = oil swell the grain? ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE874.353B9460-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Tue Aug 17 07:33:25 1999 Subject: Re: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 8/17/99 5:07:43 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: Chris - It is a good glue, but like Urac, it has shelf life problems. I used to use a lot of it for furniture work, but gave up on it after getting two or three bad batches in a row. Fortunately, I had enough experience to knowthe signs, and avoided disaster. The chief difference between it and urac is a lower heat resistance. It won't pass the two hour boiling test.I have talked to people who use it for rod sections successfully. I woulduse it myself, if I could be absolutely sure it was fresh. Store it in a dry place, it seems to be humidity that kills it. from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Aug 17 08:45:49 1999 Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:45:45 -0400 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Beveling wood form? I wouldn't use any kind of oil to aid the cut. I made my rock maple formsusing a wood lathe tool - a 60 degree vee scraper - held upright betweentwopieces of 3/4 inch plywood. The scraper was reasonably sharp and I had noproblem with chatter. I can think of four reasons you might have chatter,and oil won't help with any of them: 1. Your scraper wasn't sharp enough;2. The grain of your maple wasn't straight, or you were scrapingagainst it;3. (in my mind, most likely) You were taking too aggressive a cut;4. The scraper wasn't held firmly enough. I found that you have to hold the scraper quite firmly and take a very verylight cut with the grain. You can get a little more aggressive the deeperyou go. At the end of the process, there were still a few barely visible"ridges" in one or two places, which I removed by taking a very fast strokeall down the length of the form holding the scraper VERY firmly. In fact,this stroke was so fast and I held the scraper so hard that I had a tiny bitof tearout at the exit end. Not enought to impair the function of the form,however. I ended up with a nice smooth beveled surface that neededpractically no filing. The whole process took a couple of hours. -----Original Message-----From: Jim Utzerath [SMTP:utzerath@execpc.com]Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:49 AM Subject: Beveling wood form? I'm now ready to cut the bevel on my second maple form, and the firsttimearound I had trouble with the 60 degree scraper tool chattering andmakingridges that I had to file down. Last year someone recommended using cutting oil to prevent this. But Ihave also been advised to keep the maple work surface clean. Doesanyonehave advise on using cutting oil? Would you apply a thin film with a ragbefore each scraping stroke? Won't the oil swell the grain? from worden@indiana.edu Tue Aug 17 08:57:20 1999 IAA19937; Subject: unsubscribe from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Aug 17 09:09:19 1999 Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:09:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Beveling wood form? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEE898.475246C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEE898.475246C0 Jim, I think I'd be very wary about using oil of any sort on a planing =form-- particularly a wooden one. The reason is that oil can easily =contaminate the bamboo strips as you plane, causing problems later in =your glue joints. Of course, you could always take the precaution of wiping your strips =prior to gluing with, say, laquer thinner or acetone. Just a thought... =. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Jim Utzerath Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:58 AMSubject: Beveling wood form? I'm now ready to cut the bevel on my second maple form, and the =first time around I had trouble with the 60 degree scraper tool =chattering and making ridges that I had to file down. Last year someone recommended using cutting oil to prevent this. =But I have also been advised to keep the maple work surface clean. Does =anyone have advise on using cutting oil? Would you apply a thin film =with a rag before each scraping stroke? Won't the oil swell the grain? ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEE898.475246C0 Jim, I think I'd be very= using oil of any sort on a planing form--particularly a wooden = reason is that oil can easily contaminate the bamboo strips as you = causing problems later in your glue joints. Of course, youcould = the precaution of wiping your strips prior to gluing with, say, laquer = Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:58 AMSubject: Beveling = form?I'm now ready to cut the bevel= maple form, and the first time around I had trouble with the 60 = down. Last year someonerecommended = ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEE898.475246C0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Aug 17 09:19:38 1999 Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:19:26 -0400 , Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01BEE899.B31B3E60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BEE899.B31B3E60 I used a plastic resin glue (powdered + liquid catalyst) maybe twenty =years ago, but I had very poor results with it. The glue had good =working qualities and seemed to produce nice looking joints, but I also =built a couple test strips at the same time which were meant for =splitting apart after the glue cured. I do this with each type of glue =I have tried, to see just how much "shredding" of the fibers takes place =along the joint . I figure, the more shredding, the better the glue = The plastic resin glue, however, split open at the joints with little or =no effort--following the glue line perfectly and leaving no shredded =fibers. I concluded from this rather unscientific experiment that the =glue was apparently not penetrating well into the cane itself. That was =twenty years ago, and improvements may have been made. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Landeens rmoon@ida.net ; saltwein@swbell.net Cc: Rodmakers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:54 PMSubject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life Bob Clark from Lewiston, ID a long time rod builder uses DAP =WeldwoodPlastic Resin. You simply mix the powder with water at whatever =consistencyyou want and glue away. You can work on straightening for at least =an hourafter binding. I have built 4 rods so far using this glue and it =seems towork well. I was wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I =have neverseen it mentioned.-----Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor Cc: Rodmakers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:36 PMSubject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life When I made my first rod, I decided to go with resorcinol, out of =respect buy it inamuch larger quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half- quart =cans.That'll make a lot of rods! I'd like to be able to use it up, or =at leastasubtantial portion of it - how long can I keep this stuff around? =I'veheard it keeps only a year, but your experience with epon has me =wondering. -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon [SMTP:rmoon@ida.net]Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:58 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material =I usedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot =Life ismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this =material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year =period. ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BEE899.B31B3E60 I = resin glue (powdered + liquid catalyst) maybe twenty years ago, but I = produce nice looking joints, but I also built a couple test strips at = with each type of glue I have tried, to see just how much = the better the glue joint. The = glue, however, split open at the joints with little or no = rather unscientific experiment that the glue was apparently not = = been made. Bill -----Original = Landeens <landeen@valley- <SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us&g= Rodmakers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, August 16, 1999 4:54 PMSubject: Re: Was = - Now Resorcinol Shelf LifeBob Clark from = a long time rod builder uses DAP WeldwoodPlastic Resin. You = the powder with water at whatever consistencyyou want and glue = can work on straightening for at least an hourafter binding. I = built 4 rods so far using this glue and it seems towork well. I = wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I have neverseen = mentioned.-----Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor =<SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us&g= Rodmakers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, August 16, 1999 4:36 PMSubject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid -= quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half-quart = ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01BEE899.B31B3E60-- from leroyt@involved.com Tue Aug 17 09:33:35 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:32:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Beveling wood form? boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01BEE883.80C7F360" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BEE883.80C7F360 Jim, Have made three sets of wooden forms and used various tools to cut=the grove. Grain can be a problem with the maple, use a triangular file =to finish the grove. Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 3:49 AMSubject: Beveling wood form? I'm now ready to cut the bevel on my second maple form, and the first =time around I had trouble with the 60 degree scraper tool chattering and =making ridges that I had to file down. Last year someone recommended using cutting oil to prevent this. But =I have also been advised to keep the maple work surface clean. Does =anyone have advise on using cutting oil? Would you apply a thin film =with a rag before each scraping stroke? Won't the oil swell the grain? ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BEE883.80C7F360 Jim, Have made three setsof = grove.Good luck, = ----- Original Message ----- Jim = Utzerath = Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 = AMSubject: Beveling wood =form? I'm now ready to cut the bevel on= maple form, and the first time around I had trouble with the 60 degree = tool chattering and making ridges that I had to file =down. Last year someone recommended= oil swell the grain? ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BEE883.80C7F360-- from eestlow@srminc.com Tue Aug 17 09:34:19 1999 Subject: Re: stress curves 1999) at 08/17/9909:28:45 AM Darryl Hayasheda has had a good treatise on stress curves which he'sposteda couple of times in the past. You might check the archives. Wayne also hasa description of the math on Jerry's Rodmakers website. The math (and thecurves that fall out of the math) is pretty much basic solid mechanicsbeamtheory. You have to watch it because bamboo is non-isotropic - that is, itdoesn't have the same properties in all directions. It's effectively acomposite material like fiberglass, graphite, kevlar, etc., and natural toboot. It makes the math either tougher or more approximate, depending onhow you go. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "Noah Roberts (jik-)" rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent by: cc:owner- rodmakers@wugate Subject: stress curves.wustl.edu 08/17/99 03:43 AMPlease respond to jik Anyone know of a good website for the theories behind stress curves?I am not getting very much out of the Garrison book and I would liketo know a bit more. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Aug 17 09:37:59 1999 HAA03175; (5.5.2448.0) "'drodgers@ddaccess.net'" Subject: RE: Other bamboo andy does not allow anybody to pick through, in the years that I've knownhim it's beenyou pays your money and you gets your bundle. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: drodgers[SMTP:drodgers@ddaccess.net] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Other bamboo Leroy, Your stqtement is interesting. I questioned Andy if the stock that he wascurrentlyselling a few months back was picked over. I was assured by Andy that noone was allowedto go through his stock and pick out what they wanted. Dan -----Original Message-----From: leroy teeple ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:32 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo List, What am unpleasant surprise to read about Andy Royer. Havebeen doingbusiness with him since he started. He sort of spoiled some of us as wewere able to gopick through his stock and get what we wanted. I have not physically checked this out but have looked at his site,there is anursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planning to go downthere. Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery, www.harborside.com/bamboo The webpage show that hehas some tools for working bamboo and poles of different sizes for salealso.Leroy................. ----- Original Message ----- From: WILLIAM A HARMS Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 9:38 AMSubject: Re: Other bamboo Noah, I'm interested in the same thing, but I believe one will onlylearn bytrying. I have planted six different species of Phyllostachys (Nuda,Congesta, Vivax,Rubromarginata, Aureosulcata and Spectabilis) here in southcentral PA (azone 6aclimate). All these species I'm told, are hardy down to around -10F sothey should doalright. I don't know if any of my plants will develop culms suitable forbuilding, butI don't really care in the end. I just love to see the stuff, and want todevelop somegroves on my property for aesthetic reasons. My own plants were about four feet tall when I planted themthis pastApril, and all sent up new shoots that now range from six to ten feet tall. Each fallthe plants will send out new rhizomes, and each spring the resulting newshoots shouldincrease in diameter and height until the plant reaches maturity (aboutfour-to-sixyears, depending upon species, climate and soil). The culms that may beuseful would bethose emerging only from the mature plant, but I understand that eventhese will need tobecome at least four years old to develop their maximum wall thicknessand strength.Some sort of marking system on the culms themselves needs to be devisedin order to keeptrack of each year's "production." As to the suitability of any given species, I suppose thedeterminingfactors would be (in addition to one's own, local, growing conditions):the depth of the groove (sulcus) between each node, the number of branches at each node (below ten to twelvefeet)the diameter of the culmthe distance between nodes and their own growthcharacteristicsthe density, elasticity and overall thickness of fibers inouterwall. You mention the "black" bamboo, but I have read that all threevarieties(Nigra, Bory and Henon) would survive winter temps. only down to +5F. That is, althoughthe plant structure may loose its leaves after enduring such temps, andsome culms maydie back, the root system would survive to send up healthy new shoots inthe followingspring.> And, too, I believe that the beautiful black color of the Nigra isprobablyonly an attribute of the enamel-- that is, only "skin deep." All three of the"black"bamboos, however, are reputed to have excellent "wood" characteristics.> Apparently there are several species of bamboo that developexcellent"wood" or "timber" qualities, but not all of them are hardy in oursomewhat northernclimates (say, north of Zone 6b). And, again, I have read that many of the tall "timber" species do not developtheirmaximum strength, wall thickness and height when introduced toincreasingly northernclimates--even though they may thrive well in > other ways. Are there any other builders out there who have messed aroundwith theirown little groves of bamboo? cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Noah Roberts (jik-) Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 11:34 PMSubject: Other bamboo Has anyone tried out the other types of bamboo? Seems tomethat the"Black" bamboo (Phyllostachys nigra) would make a verynicelookingpole. Its also a tall bamboo and listed at one site as a"timber"bamboo. I am wondering why Tonkin has been usedexclusivly itseems. Also, has anyone tried to grow their own? Some varietiescangrow indownright cold weather...take Black for instance, minimumtempis 0deg. How long does it take to grow a bamboo culm of say20'? from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Tue Aug 17 10:11:31 1999 Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:08:47 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) saltwein@swbell.net, Rodmakers Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life Glues are a really interesting subject and no matter what gets said itnever seems to be enough. John Zimny may like to comment here but I getthe impression there is more to glue doing it's job than a simplemechanical bond, it may be something of an ionic attraction thing also.Obviously I'm not a chemist which is why hopefuly someone who is willcomment. A couple of things I do know however based on gluing *wood*andrelating this to George Barnes' article in TPF where George comparedvarious glues used to hold scarfed strips after submerging them in water Unless something has changed epoxies aren't truely waterproof, closebut not quite nor will the bond hold if the glue is expected to bondrelatively large sections when wet. This is easiest to describe aslaminating 2(4 x 4) sections of wood to make a keel 8 x 4 for a boatcompared to laminating 8(1 x 4) laminations. The expected thing is the 4 x4 lamination if submerged continually will fail and in these casesResorcinol is recomended. In both cases 8 laminations to build the keel isrecomended. The reason seems to be the resorcinol is waterproof yet isable to move with the swelling and contraction of wet/dry wood.Resorcinolmakers mention it being boil proof. I guess if the wood disolves beforethe glue does it's pretty good glue.This prob explains the failure George experienced of the glue line whenwet testing with epoxy but found the bond held after drying the strip. I know from my own testing and keeping in mind it's a safe assumption therod will always be used dry I didn't test wet strips I found epoxy was themost sure bond for scarfing strips and strangely resorcinol wasn't as goodas expected but this may be because resorcinol is more affected by tempandbonding pressure. Possibly the pressure I used when clamping the scarfswas excessive or insufficient. All the UF's and Cascomite seemed muchthesame as resorcinol as far as scarf failure in testing was concerned. I have to admit total confusion as to why the scarfs seem to fail soeasily when tested to destruction yet hold together as a rod without anyproblems so I no longer worry about this seeming contradiction and nowjust make sure I use the same glue for scarfs as I intend using for themaking the blank to avoid problems during heat treating. On balance as faras I'm concerned Shell Epon is the best glue to use for anybody goingnodeless. Resorcinol is a very close second but the scarfs are a bit moredelicate during planing but are no problem as a rod.Resorcinol has a shelf life, as do the UF's. Epoxy dosn't seem to have ashelf life worth thinking about as you'll prob use it all up well withinthe years it keeps. I know Mike Roberts has made rods with Titebond II for the scarfs andresorcinol for making the blank and there's nothing wrong with these rods. Tony On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: I used a plastic resin glue (powdered + liquid catalyst) maybe twentyyears ago, but Ihad very poor results with it. The glue had good working qualities andseemed toproduce nice looking joints, but I also built a couple test strips at thesame timewhich were meant for splitting apart after the glue cured. I do this witheach type ofglue I have tried, to see just how much "shredding" of the fibers takesplace along thejoint . I figure, the more shredding, the better the glue joint. The plastic resin glue, however, split open at the joints with little or noeffort--following the glue line perfectly and leaving no shredded fibers. Iconcluded from this rather unscientific experiment that the glue was apparently notpenetratingwell into the cane itself. That was twenty years ago, and improvementsmay have beenmade. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Landeens rmoon@ida.net; saltwein@swbell.net Cc: Rodmakers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:54 PMSubject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life Bob Clark from Lewiston, ID a long time rod builder uses DAPWeldwoodPlastic Resin. You simply mix the powder with water at whateverconsistencyyou want and glue away. You can work on straightening for at least anhourafter binding. I have built 4 rods so far using this glue and it seems towork well. I was wondering if anyone else used this glue, since I haveneverseen it mentioned.-- ---Original Message-----From: Seth Steinzor Cc: Rodmakers Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 4:36 PMSubject: RE: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life When I made my first rod, I decided to go with resorcinol, out ofrespect inamuch larger quantity than needed - about $20 for the two half- quartcans.That'll make a lot of rods! I'd like to be able to use it up, or at leastasubtantial portion of it - how long can I keep this stuff around? I'veheard it keeps only a year, but your experience with epon has mewondering. -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon [SMTP:rmoon@ida.net]Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:58 PM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Epon/Versamid SteveStill trying to verify if the Epon Versamid is the same material Iusedto buy from Bingham. If So? then here is my experience. Pot Lifeismeasured in hours, You have a long time to work with this material.Shelf Life is indefinite. I have used some over a ten year period. /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from yves@hwy97.net Tue Aug 17 12:55:42 1999 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.2) with SMTP id for;Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:55:34 - 0700 Subject: NS ferrules List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from moss_craig@hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 13:01:04 1999 Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:00:31 PDT Subject: unsubscribe _______________________________________________________________Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com from WLBond@cps-satx.com Tue Aug 17 13:08:08 1999 199918:11:56 UT Subject: unsubcribe from jczimny@dol.net Tue Aug 17 13:10:56 1999 wugate.wustl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22940 SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us, rmoon@ida.net, saltwein@swbell.net,Rodmakers Subject: Re: Was Epon/Versamid - Now Resorcinol Shelf Life boundary="------------A0E5BCA288A2CE5FB158F57A" --------------A0E5BCA288A2CE5FB158F57A No matter how deep an adhesive penetrates there is always a cleavagepoint where theglue ends and the material begins. It is this area that is most subject toshear forces.Many, if not most, substrates become less resistant to shear when wet. Itis usually themechanical failure of the substrate itself along the cleavage point thatone sees inglue failures. Only rarely does the glue itself fail. Mostly this type offailure can beattributed to the adhesive's failure to fully cure - forwhatever reason. Only a laboratory observation using electron microscopywill tell whereand how the bonds are failing.The only two classes of adhesives that maintain the bond undercompletely wet conditionsare the resorcinols and the melamines. Also, I have seen proprietaryclaims ofunderwater bonding by some epoxies. However, the ones that I'veinvestigated dependedunpon a thick martrix of some other substance held together by the resin.These did notseem suitable to rod making.John Z /***********************************************************************/ --------------A0E5BCA288A2CE5FB158F57A No matter how deep an adhesive penetrates there is always a cleavagepointwhere the glue ends and the material begins. It is this area that is mostsubject to shear forces. Many, if not most, substrates become lessresistantto shear when wet. It is usually the mechanical failure of the substrateitself along the cleavage point that one sees in glue failures. Only rarelydoes the glue itself fail. Mostly this type of failure can be attributedto the adhesive's failure to fully cure - for whatever reason. Only alaboratoryobservation using electron microscopy will tell where and how the bondsare failing.The only two classes of adhesives that maintain the bond undercompletelywet conditions are the resorcinols and the melamines. Also, I have seenproprietary claims of underwater bonding by some epoxies. However, theones that I've investigated depended unpon a thick martrix of some othersubstance held together by the resin. These did not seem suitable to rodmaking.John Z /***********************************************************************/ --------------A0E5BCA288A2CE5FB158F57A-- from chris@artistree.com Tue Aug 17 13:23:58 1999 Subject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP The humidity issue would make sense. If I place just a dusting of thepowder on my finger the glue starts to set up almost immediately basedon the little amount of moisture on my skin. Regards,Chris Wohlford TSmithwick@aol.com wrote:Store it in a dry place, it seems to be humidity that kills it. from eestlow@srminc.com Tue Aug 17 13:30:17 1999 Subject: Re: unsubcribe 1999) at 08/17/9901:24:43 PM To all those trying to unsubscribe, remember, you have to send tolistproc@wugate.wustl.edu , not rodmakers@..... -Ed "Bond, William L" "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'"Sent by: owner- rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: unsubcribe 08/17/99 01:07 PMPlease respond toWLBond from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Aug 17 15:41:03 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: Re: NS ferrules David,Haven't seen any response yet, so here comes my opinion. For severalyears,Bailey Wood at Classic Sporting Enterprises has been recognized asmaking the bestferrules available. They aren't cheap, but any bamboo rod is worth theprice of agood set of ferrules.Lately I've heard good things about ferrules from REC. Though Ipersonallyhave not used them, you might want to check them out.To buy a few sets retail, you can't do much better than buying CSE(BaileyWoods) ferrules through Angler's Workshop.There are links to all these places on the Rodmakers Page athttp://www2.crosswinds.net/sacramento/~jfoster/rodmakers/ Hope this helps,Harry Boyd David La Touche wrote: List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Aug 17 15:54:18 1999 Subject: Re: Other bamboo from what I can make out, Royer will not be retailing cane for rodmakersunlessyou are prepared to purchase 1000+ sticks, otherwise you must buy fromGoodingor Maurer. channer wrote: At 07:34 AM 08/16/1999 -0700, leroy teeple wrote:I have not physically checked this out but have looked at his site,there is a nursery growing bamboo on the Oregon coast and am planningtogo down there. Tradewinds Bamboo Nursery,www.harborside.com/bamboo Theweb page show that he has some tools for working bamboo and poles of LeRoy;Read his post again, he says he is merely taking a break for a fewmonths,not that he is quitting selling Tonkin completely. While I am sure it willadd considerably to your cost, you can still get the same bamboo fromRussGoooding and George Maurer.John from LambersonW@missouri.edu Tue Aug 17 15:54:24 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: NS ferrules Has anyone tried the Philipson ferrules from Rick's Rods? It is listed onthe Rodmaker's page. Is their cost comparable to the CSE ferrules? Bill Lamberson-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: NS ferrules David,Haven't seen any response yet, so here comes my opinion. For severalyears,Bailey Wood at Classic Sporting Enterprises has been recognized asmakingthe bestferrules available. They aren't cheap, but any bamboo rod is worth theprice of agood set of ferrules.Lately I've heard good things about ferrules from REC. Though Ipersonallyhave not used them, you might want to check them out.To buy a few sets retail, you can't do much better than buying CSE(BaileyWoods) ferrules through Angler's Workshop.There are links to all these places on the Rodmakers Page athttp://www2.crosswinds.net/sacramento/~jfoster/rodmakers/ Hope this helps,Harry Boyd David La Touche wrote: List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from dhaftel@att.com Tue Aug 17 16:07:01 1999 RAA04351; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1sol2) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: NS ferrules David, Have you tried Dave LeClair at the Fly and Rod Room? I think his web pageis listed on the Rodmakers' site. I bought some ferrules from him and I'mhappy with them. He does nice work. No connection, blah, blah... Hope this helps, Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: NS ferrules List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Aug 17 16:08:17 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP Uf glues are given a short shelf life because industrial users leave 45gallondrums of the stuff lying around with the lids off. I have been using thesameglue for seven years keeping it in a tight fitting container with somedesiccating crystals.When the adhesive becomes lumpy when mixed it is time to dump it. TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/17/99 5:07:43 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: not tried gluing up splines with it. >> Chris - It is a good glue, but like Urac, it has shelf life problems. I usedto use a lot of it for furniture work, but gave up on it after getting twoorthree bad batches in a row. Fortunately, I had enough experience to knowthesigns, and avoided disaster. The chief difference between it and urac is alower heat resistance. It won't pass the two hour boiling test.I have talked to people who use it for rod sections successfully. I woulduseit myself, if I could be absolutely sure it was fresh. Store it in a dryplace, it seems to be humidity that kills it. from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Aug 17 16:38:09 1999 Subject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP I agree with Terry. I've been using Casco resin glue (UF) for severalyears now with very satisfactory results. The USA equivalent of Casco isBordens L100 recommended by J. Zimny. The tech rep for the companyadvisedme that the shelf life of the resin doubles every time you reduce thestorage temperature by 10 degrees. The resin is "working" from the day itis made and eventually becomes "lumpy" and hard to use. Storing it at lowtemperatures such as in your frig increases its working life considerably. The current gallon I'm using is 2 years old and shows no sign of "lumps". Casco is an industrial glue normally sold in barrels . . . I've found anindustrial firm which is willing to sell me a gallon now and then. ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: chris@artistree.com; owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAPDate: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 5:11 PM Uf glues are given a short shelf life because industrial users leave 45gallondrums of the stuff lying around with the lids off. I have been using thesameglue for seven years keeping it in a tight fitting container with somedesiccating crystals.When the adhesive becomes lumpy when mixed it is time to dump it. TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/17/99 5:07:43 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: not tried gluing up splines with it. >> Chris - It is a good glue, but like Urac, it has shelf life problems. Iusedto use a lot of it for furniture work, but gave up on it after gettingtwo orthree bad batches in a row. Fortunately, I had enough experience toknow thesigns, and avoided disaster. The chief difference between it and uracis alower heat resistance. It won't pass the two hour boiling test.I have talked to people who use it for rod sections successfully. Iwould useit myself, if I could be absolutely sure it was fresh. Store it in adryplace, it seems to be humidity that kills it. from tripp@olywa.net Tue Aug 17 16:55:40 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35)with ESMTP id net for ;Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Strip heater for oven I'm preparing to build a heat treating oven, ala Wayne C's design. Anyoneknow of an order being put together, or interested in doing so? Mark Tripp from andy@w-link.net Tue Aug 17 17:28:24 1999 Subject: bamboo I don't quite understand the confusion pertaining to whether or not I amgoing out of business. As I stated first a month ago and again a couple ofdays ago, I have purposely exhausted my stock of tonkin cane. ThisbecauseI needed to move from my warehouse and to put more energy into a newbamboobusiness venture. I am staying in the bamboo business. I do not know when I will have material available for retail sale but it ismy intent to do so before too long. In the meantime, Russ Gooding ofGoldenWitch [gwti@desupernet.net (717) 738-7330] and George Maurer of SweetWaterRods [DrBamboo@aol.com (610) 562-8595] are selling the same qualitybamboo. My primary reason for my maneuver is based on my commitment to bamboofibrein general. I have worked with bamboo for over five years now and mymaininterest is in promoting bamboo as a viable alternative to wood fiber. Myinterests have led me to a position with a company working on severalproducts which will incorporate bamboo fiber into traditional wood basedproducts. It has been both a blessing and a curse but I have usually workedas an individual and as I take a break from selling retail bundles of cane,my entire business takes a break from selling retail bundles of cane. Thetime constraints of the retail business are vast. I will attempt to set upa form of business which will allow me to remain hands on in theselectionof cane from China and hands off when it comes to selling bundles on aretail level. As T. Ackland posted, I am continuing to work with tonkin ona wholesale level (1000+ pcs). In terms of quality differences from different sources, there are only afew. We are talking of a natural material here. A natural material, it isnot grown in a lab or with protective clothing. This means that bamboo,inherently, has "flaws". I have handled over 30,000 individual pieces of12' x 2-2 1/2" cane. While I have seen many stunning pieces and some thatare "more perfect" than others, none have been perfect. Like any man,womanor child, there is always some point which may be called a flaw by some.The perfection is in making a beautiful rod out of a naturally providedmaterial. Getting back to the quality/source issue. Some percentage of crap alwaysmakes its way into any given quantity of bamboo. I have attempted tobringthis percentage down to zero but learned the difficulties in doing so whenIfirst traveled to China. In any event, buying bamboo from any source mayland some crap in your workshop. A supplier should not be discounted duetoone bad shipment. That being said, I have worked hard to minimize thepoorquality material. My first shipment consisted primarily of material whichhad been cut above existing slash marks. I later found that this was notnecessary. I have supplied (as do Russ and George, and I in the future)butt cuts with no slash marks or burn marks. My goal as a supplier of canehas simply been to supply the best quality possible. Two other notes: I do not allow anyone to pick through my material and I resent theimplication that this happens. In my three years in this business, this hashappened on one occasion. This was in the first week of my materialcominginto the country. I had asked a respected builder in the area, DaryllWhitehead, to look at the poles and comment on the overall quality. Daryllarrived at the same time as many other builders who were coming to buybamboo. As Daryll opened many bundles to inspect the quality, others sawfit to do the same. I was spending time with Daryll and allowing others tomill around on their own. This has not happened since. And, the issue of other types of bamboo and/or growing your own tonkinseemto crop up on this list about every six months. Perhaps one messageshouldbe written containing information about these topics and other rodbuildingFAQ's (frequently asked questions). This message could then be sent tonewsubscribers or simply copied and sent to people when these questionsarise.Here, in short, is my opinion on the issue. Tonkin is the best knownbamboo of species (out of about 1,500 known), tonkin comes up as having thehighestpercentage of cellulose (power) fibers (most bamboo not tested are notconsidered building grade bamboo). Anyone, anywhere (almost) can growthisbamboo. No where on earth has it grown with as much success as inSouthernChina. It seems that this question is brought up because of cost, quality orsupplyavailability issues. I have addressed the quality issue in this post. InNorth America, there are now several places from where to order thiscane.In Europe, Leonard Moss (Center Cane, TEL: 01277 363285) carries mybamboo. The cost is relative to what you are buying. I can sell 12' x 2-2 1/2"tonkin cane to anyone for $3 a stick. There is a difference between a $3and a $15- 20 piece of bamboo. Primarily, that difference is the work thathas gone into selecting that cane for a high end market like rodbuilding (aswell as the quantity being purchased). There are tens of thousands ofacresof tonkin in China. Only a small percentage of this bamboo reaches thesizethat most rodbuilders like. Only about half of that material is adequate rodbuilders. The material was usually structurally sound but with moresurface flaws than my "A" grade. I offered this material for $6 a pole. Itwo years, I think I sold twenty pieces. I have learned that rodbuilderswant the best quality possible (although a few want better...). Again, many thanks for allowing me to service rodbuilders. I apologize forany personal or commercial tone to this post. I wrote what I did because Iam receiving many inquiries about what I am doing and I am trying toansweras many of those questions as I may in a public forum. Thank you. Cordially, Andy RoyerThe Bamboo Brokerbamboo@w-link.net(206) 935-4414 ph(206) 935-5515 fax from rclarke@eou.edu Tue Aug 17 19:05:19 1999 17:43:27 -0700 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: RE: bamboo Andy's cane is excellent. I appreciate his willingness to keep hiscustomers happy. Ihave enough cnae to last me a year or two (or three), but when it comes toreorder, if Ican buy from Andy, I will. No financial interest here. Rob Clarke from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Aug 17 19:14:20 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAP Ted,these adhesives have been used for years in rodmaking without failure.Thesurplus glue can be washed of after binding so that just the adhesivehidingunder the cord needs to be sanded off.UF adhesives require very close fitting joints (as they are not gap filling) Zimnysuggests.I remember visiting a local factory that made curved ply desks and chairsusingUF glue and huge HF presses. Very impressive, nothing could be morestressedthan a 90deg tight bend on a laminated chair.I'll "stick" with the low tech glue because it works. Epoxy, I think, was arecommendation made so as not to copy Garrison completely.Terry Ted Knott wrote: I agree with Terry. I've been using Casco resin glue (UF) for severalyears now with very satisfactory results. The USA equivalent of CascoisBordens L100 recommended by J. Zimny. The tech rep for the companyadvisedme that the shelf life of the resin doubles every time you reduce thestorage temperature by 10 degrees. The resin is "working" from the dayitis made and eventually becomes "lumpy" and hard to use. Storing it atlowtemperatures such as in your frig increases its working lifeconsiderably.The current gallon I'm using is 2 years old and shows no sign of "lumps".Casco is an industrial glue normally sold in barrels . . . I've found anindustrial firm which is willing to sell me a gallon now and then. ----------From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: chris@artistree.com; owner- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was Epon, Now Resorcinol, Now DAPDate: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 5:11 PM Uf glues are given a short shelf life because industrial users leave 45gallondrums of the stuff lying around with the lids off. I have been using thesameglue for seven years keeping it in a tight fitting container with somedesiccating crystals.When the adhesive becomes lumpy when mixed it is time to dump it. TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/17/99 5:07:43 AM, chris@artistree.com wrote: havenot tried gluing up splines with it. >> Chris - It is a good glue, but like Urac, it has shelf life problems. Iusedto use a lot of it for furniture work, but gave up on it after gettingtwo orthree bad batches in a row. Fortunately, I had enough experience toknow thesigns, and avoided disaster. The chief difference between it and uracis alower heat resistance. It won't pass the two hour boiling test.I have talked to people who use it for rod sections successfully. Iwould useit myself, if I could be absolutely sure it was fresh. Store it in adryplace, it seems to be humidity that kills it. from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Aug 17 20:47:16 1999 Subject: Re: Re: Beveling Wood Forms boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F1.6D2D4BC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F1.6D2D4BC0 Thanks for the feedback. NO CUTTING OIL and it came out fine; just =finished. I'll pass on a few comments for what they're worth. I'm using steel =dowel pins; shoulder bolts drive me crazy. If you invest in a 3/8" =reamer, you can get a nice snug fit. The only good maple I could get came in a 9/4 thick plank that I ripped =into 2x2's, drilled dowel holes, then ripped again. My maple had a lot =of internal stress so it helped to know someone with a big jointer to =take out the bows. You want the work surface to be the quarter-sawn =side. Besides giving you finer grain, it puts the main bowing direction =on the side you adjust. You can do a decent job of dressing the slats flat with a table saw =gadget that Woodworkers Supply sells for about $37 (with shipping and =120 grit sanding disk) that consists of a 10" slightly conical sanding =disk. Be sure you can tip your saw arbor a little over 3 degrees (the = That's it I'm going to plane some. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F1.6D2D4BC0 = and it came out fine; just finished. I'll pass on a few comments forwhat = you invest in a 3/8" reamer, you can get a nice snug =fit. The only good maple I could getcame = bowing direction on the side you adjust. You can do a decent job ofdressing = flat with a table saw gadget that Woodworkers Supply sells for about $37= shipping and 120 grit sanding disk) that consists of a 10" slightly = (the wrong way) toward your rip fence. some. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F1.6D2D4BC0-- from landeen@valley-internet.net Tue Aug 17 20:58:05 1999 0000 Subject: Re: NS ferrules I have bought NS ferrules from Anglers Workshop and Clemens, butClemensonly carries a few sizes. I understand that Dave LeClair is out of the rodsupply business. I received Royer's last shipment of bamboo today. It looksgood.-----Original Message---- - Subject: NS ferrules List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Aug 17 21:33:49 1999 Subject: Re: stress curves boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F7.EF49A620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F7.EF49A620 If you want the theory, your best bet is to pick up a text on material =science that has a good explanation of beam loading and bending. You =should be able to understand it if you have some aptitude for physics. =You will find some serious assumptions about constant modulus that limit=the accuracy of the theory as we now commonly apply it. The art of stress curves (how their shape relates to the rod's casting =characteristics) is more a matter of experience (that I wish I had) with =many different examples of rods. I found Wayne Cattanach's notes to = ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F7.EF49A620 If you want the theory, your best= up a text on material science that has a good explanation of beam = that limit the accuracy of the theory as we now commonly apply =it. The art of stress curves (howtheir = relates to the rod's casting characteristics) is more a matter of = Cattanach's notes to "hexrod" informative. = ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEE8F7.EF49A620-- from thramer@presys.com Tue Aug 17 21:45:44 1999 0000 Subject: Phillipson Ferrules The Phillipson ferrules are not nickel silver but a related alloy calledMonel. No zinc in it from what I understand. Not a greasy feeling and itdoes not blue( although I think Dave LeClair could figure it out). Theyare also not machined ferrules as the other three suppliers are, theyare a drawn ferrule. Perfectly serviceable but they have always beenregarded as a cost cutting measure(which they are).A.J.Thramer from seanmcs@ar.com.au Tue Aug 17 21:47:37 1999 Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:45:42 +1000 Subject: Re: NS ferrules Take a look at Tony Young's site for ferrules that are good. Sean McS David La Touche wrote: List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from cattanac@wmis.net Tue Aug 17 22:11:14 1999 mail4.wmis.net(8.8.8/SCO5) with SMTP id XAA26202; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:11:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Strip heater for oven Mark -There is no need to put an order together - Grand Technologies in GrandRapids (my local large city) stocks (on the shelf) the strip heaters - allyou or anyone else interested in obtaining one has to do is call them -616- 656-0866 Dan or anyone there will be able to help you out - theyshouldalso have thermostats and high temp wire to complete the package - thelastI heard the heaters were a little over $60 - Gee - Perhaps I should come out of 'the cave' more often Wayne ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Strip heater for oven I'm preparing to build a heat treating oven, ala Wayne C's design. Anyoneknow of an order being put together, or interested in doing so? Mark Tripp from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Tue Aug 17 23:27:49 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: NS ferrules David,I've used Tony Young's ferrules on the two rods I've made so far.The quality is high, the price is right and I will not be changing suppliersunless Tony gives up making them. He also makes some pretty nifty reelseats if you're interested. Just a word of warning though: I was a rodmaking virgin when I met Tony who took advantage of my naivity andturned meto the dark side of nodeless construction and parabolic tapers. Be afraid.Be very very afraid. No commercial interest etc....etc....etc. Good luck Mike Roberts -----Original Message----- Subject: NS ferrules List: Has anyone a good source for NS ferrules - presumably there is nosuch thing as a good, cheap ferrule. Also, as a new rodmaker, I'veappreciated all of the excellent tips that show up on the list! Thanks toall. from Canerods@aol.com Tue Aug 17 23:43:48 1999 Subject: Re: Phillipson Ferrules In a message dated 8/17/99 7:52:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, thramer@presys.com writes: The Phillipson ferrules are not nickel silver but a related alloy calledMonel. No zinc in it from what I understand. Not a greasy feeling and itdoes not blue( although I think Dave LeClair could figure it out). Theyare also not machined ferrules as the other three suppliers are, theyare a drawn ferrule. Perfectly serviceable but they have always beenregarded as a cost cutting measure(which they are).A.J.Thramer AJ and All, Monel is a copper-nickel alloy, hence the slight green color to it. Since there's still some nickel in it, it should "slide" easily when connecting/disconnecting. Don Burns from darden@conninc.com Wed Aug 18 06:44:12 1999 postoffice.conninc.com(SMTPD32-5.05) id ACA129A009A; Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:44:33 -0400 Subject: Got Resorcinol? I picked up a special order or Resourcinol yesterday and expected to getone set ofpint-sized cans. Instead, they sent me six full sets, and it wasn't cheap. Since Ican't possibly build that many rods in one year, if anyone needs some, justlet me know. A little purple haze, anyone?Stuart DardenNorth Carolina from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Aug 18 07:16:30 1999 Subject: Re: Phillipson Ferrules rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 8/18/99 2:52:32 AM, thramer@presys.com wrote: AJ - Monel is a high nickel, low copper alloy, as opposed to nickel silver, which is high copper, low nickel. Monel is 2-3 times more expensive than nickel silver. I suspect Phillipson chose it because of it's ductility in the drawing process. You are correct in saying that the drawn (stamped)ferrules we see are a cost cutting measure and of diminished quality, but that is a function of the tooling. There is no technical reason a superior ferrule could not be made this way, but the tooling for a real close tolerance job would be prohibitive in the small quantities of ferrules used. Mostprecision metal stampers want to talk about millions of parts.As a point of interest, nickel and copper have the same crystallinestructure and can easily be alloyed in any combination. Monel was actuallydiscovered as a natural alloy originally. People thought a new element had been discovered until someone figured it out. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Aug 18 07:58:19 1999 Subject: Re: RE: bamboo/Andy Royer List,I talked to Andy on the phone yesterday and asked him if he was going outof business. His answer was NO he is in the process of going over and making arrangements for future shipments of cane and will be posting on the list when he has new stock available.Bret from darrelll@earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 10:14:41 1999 Subject: Re: Eastern gathering - Chile dinner I'm planning to attend. I'm coming from California and I need directionsandmore info. I've also just started some forums that might be of interest onmy site and one forum is for bamboo rod builders/restorers and collectorscalendar of events so if you or Tom Whittle could post a detailed noticethere that would be greatly appreciated. I'll be driving from Providence R.I. if anyone want's to ride share and orshare a room. Is there camping at the gathering site? Either contact meofflist or on my forum site at: www.BambooRods.homepage.com Thanks, Darrell Lee -----Original Message----- Subject: Eastern gathering - Chile dinner Hard to believe, but the summer is almost over, and the Eastern gatheringisalmost upon us. Those who have attended in the past know that the chilecookout, which began as a modest Dutch oven event for a half dozenpeople,has become an event of biblical proportions, rivaling the story of theloavesand fishes. (Well not really, but I thought Harry might enjoy that)In the past, it was easy to get the word out, since most of theparticipantswere milling around the porches at the Roscoe motel in the afternoon. Ihopethis year that those reading this will spread the word that all attendeesandtheir families are invited. I am expecting about 30 people, but can handlemore as long as I know a little in advance. I would appreciate it if anyoneplanning to attend would let me or Tom Whittle know.The event will be held in the Marinaro Meadow on the Letort. I understandacovered pavillion and picnic tables are available, so I guess it can be arain or shine event. As in the past, bring your own beverage.I will be setting up shop sometime late in the afternoon on Friday the10th. from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Aug 18 10:16:06 1999 Subject: NS Ferrules Hi David,Two excellent sources for nickel silver ferrules are: Classic SportingEnterprises and Angler's Workshop (Woodland, WA). One advantage ofbuyingthe CSE ferrules is that you can purchase them already fitted (for an extrafee). These are high quality ferrules and widely used. One way to get theprice down is to place a single large order put together at one of thebamboo rod building workshops and coordinated by a single person. We'vedone this for years now at the Corbett Lake biennial workshop resulting ina 40% discount. In regards to the Monel discussion, it too is a strong corrosion resistantnickel alloy material. Monel contains 60-70%nickel, 26- 36% copper, 1-3%iron and small percentages of manganese, silicon and carbon. A specialtypeof monel known as "K" Monel" has 2-4% aluminum added to the alloy sothatit may be heat treated. Nickel silver on the other hand is a group ofalloys containing about 55 % copper, 25 % nickel and 20% zinc.My own experience with CSE ferrules has been very satisfactory.Ray from rsgould@cmc.net Wed Aug 18 10:26:07 1999 Subject: thread cracking Rodbuilders have long been plagued with "thread cracking" right at the theend of the ferrule where the ferrule ends and the bamboo begins. It'sactually appears to be a crack in the varnish rather than a broken threadwhere the ferrule thread wrap transitions from the cane to the metalferrule. Often these cracks will not appear until the rod has been inservice for some while. What methods have you found to be successful inpreventing this?Ray from darrelll@earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 11:15:49 1999 Subject: Re: Great Western So I presume the date is set for October 30, 31 in Bishop. I've volunteered to cook a batch of killer chili (IMHO) and I've ordered anew outdoor cast iron dutch oven for the occasion. Ray Gould brought up an excellent idea to put together a group order foritems at a gathering... perhaps some one would volunteer to handle a grouporder for ferrules or other items. 40% off? Sounds like something the lowvolume rod maker might be interested in... We didn't talk about any registration fees or the like... I know the othergatherings charge a fee, should we charge a fee and if so, what would itgetus? How about a raffle prize of a set of forms, Lie-Nielsen plane orsomething interesting... Comments anyone? Volunteers for demos? Programs? Time is fast approaching... Darrell Lee -----Original Message----- Subject: Great Western Jeremy & All, Sorry to be tardy on this but am still in the process of moving fromBonita to Bishop and I only have E-mail in Bonita. Seems we have atleast 20+ interested in getting together and the last week or weekend ofOct. is the preferred date, this conflicts with the gathering inMountain Home I believe but Guess we will go with it anyway. I now needsome ideas for a program if we want one and some help in getting itorganized otherwise we will all just fish and sit around discussing thevirtues of bamboo and those that build the rods. Any comments, ideas, program directors, etc. would be gratefullyaccepted. Tight Lines, Chuck from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Aug 18 11:30:42 1999 Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:30:33 -0400 Subject: Re: thread cracking boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01BEE975.2FA5E800" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BEE975.2FA5E800 I have been able to minimize (and sometimes overcome) this little =problem by tapering out the ferrule serrations to a completely feathered =edge. It's time-consuming and a little annoying, but the process seems =to work. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Ray Gould Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:31 AMSubject: thread cracking Rodbuilders have long been plagued with "thread cracking" right at =the theend of the ferrule where the ferrule ends and the bamboo begins. =It'sactually appears to be a crack in the varnish rather than a broken =threadwhere the ferrule thread wrap transitions from the cane to the metalferrule. Often these cracks will not appear until the rod has been =inservice for some while. What methods have you found to be successful =inpreventing this?Ray ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BEE975.2FA5E800 I = minimize (and sometimes overcome) this little problem by tapering out = ferrule serrations to a completely = work. Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= crackingRodbuilders have long been plagued with= "thread cracking" right at the theend of the ferrule = ferrule ends and the bamboo begins. It'sactually appears to be a = in the varnish rather than a broken threadwhere the ferrule = transitions from the cane to the metalferrule. Often these = not appear until the rod has been inservice for some while. What = this?Ray ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BEE975.2FA5E800-- from cathcreek@hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 14:54:21 1999 Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:53:47 PDT rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Great Western Darrell, I may be bringing an Oregon contingent, and would be happy tobring an oven, wrapper, or whatever is needed. May not be able to leave here until the 28th or so, but I am really hoping to get there. Robert Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com