Subject: Re: PHY Parabolic 16? boundary="------------78077FE49B9C2A16CABBE286" --------------78077FE49B9C2A16CABBE286 Gary,Thanks for a fascinating introductory post. Though I have noknowledge of PHY rods that would help you, I know I speak for the groupin saying we would love to see the numbers from mic'ing the taper onthis rod.Harry Boyd Gary Plowick wrote: Greetings! I came across this site while trying to find some information about arod I recently acquired with zero documentation or background. No,it's not hot, I inherited it from a long-lost cousin. Sometimes thetruth IS stranger than fiction. What I have is what appears to be an old (notice the light canecolor), unnumbered and unnamed two-piece, two-tips (.075 and .080)piece. It has a mortised cork handle (in excellent condition) with asingle reel ring, and the nickel-silver butt cap is stamped "Paul H.Young Co. Detroit Mich." The only writing on the rod is just abovethe handle. Line 1: 8 1/2' 4.59 oz. HCH - HCF. Line 2: Fer 15/64tip top 5/64 Bamboo wt. 3.44 oz. The bag (no tube) is a kind ofsatin material of iridescent copper and green... worn, but very nice.Overall length in 8 1/2', and the cork handle measures 8 13/16'" fromcap to the start of the cane. After contacting the company, I was initially advised that the rod maybe a possible custom Parabolic 15. Further research and some input from other PHY rod owners from around the world (notably Jan Nystromin Sweden), however, suggested that the rod could be an early Texan.This also turned out not to be the case. This is a rod that has become more and more interesting, though, as Ihave attempted to determine its origins. As I said, I began by askingthe Paul H. Young Company about the rod, suspecting a pre-1946 model(no name, no number). When asked about this particular rod, ToddYoung told me, " from the inscription and...low butt taper, it appearsto be essentially an 8'6" "Parabolic 15" [standard Parabolic 15's are8'0"]...This is indeed a very interesting rod." Problematic about therod, however, were the Super Z ferrules which weren't available untilthe early 1950's. The handwriting, I felt, could be a helpful clue, so I contacted Mr.Bob Summers about it the rod. What he told me was most enlightening,as well as very intriguing. He said that the writing on the rod isdefinitely Paul H. Young's, and that serial numbers were first usedaround 1955. "With the super z ferrule I would guess this rod wasbuilt [updated?] about 1952," he continued. He then added the mostastonishing part of this puzzle of all. He said, "Your photo lookslike the length is 8 1/2'?? [cursed glare - as you can see from thebetter photo it IS 8 1/2'] If so this may be a one and only or one ofa couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a early parabolic 16 that had theearly stepped ferrule and was referruled with the super z." [hence the'52 reference earlier] I hope this is an appropriate forum to ask about help ID-ing thisrod. I've read with interest from the archives and there certainlyseems to be enough expertise to shed some light on this. I hope that the stress charts showing the parabolic characteristics(in spite of my rather clumsy measurements, I'm sure) of the rod comethrough on this message. I also sent along the measurements to Mr.Summers that he asked for in his initial response to my inquiry (seebelow), but I only sent them to him last night and haven't heard back from him yet. Please e- me for photos or stress charts of this rod if it wouldhelp. I have a feeling the charts aren't going to be on thismessage... Anyway, thanks for your attention. Gary (Below is the text of Mr. Summers' response) The writing is Paul H. Young's. The first serial number were about1955. > As far as the light color heat treat. We used some of theseblanks up into > the 1960"s there are probably still some of these inthe shop. With the > super z ferrule I would guess this rod was builtabout 1952. Your photo > looks like the length is 8 1/2'?? If so thismay be a one and only or one > of a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may bea early parabolic 16 that had the > early stepped ferrule and wasreferruled with the super z. If I had > dimension taken ever 6 inchesI could tell more.[Image][Image] --------------78077FE49B9C2A16CABBE286 boundary="------------B41E95E404C4830E4C2BA9B8" --------------B41E95E404C4830E4C2BA9B8 Gary, Though I have no knowledge of PHY rods that would help you, I know Ispeak taper on this rod. Gary Plowick wrote: I came across this site while trying to find someinformationabout a rod I recently acquired with zero documentation or the truth IS stranger than fiction.What I have is what appears to be an old (notice the lightcane color), unnumbered and unnamed two-piece, two-tips (.075 and .080)piece. It has a mortised cork handle (in excellent condition) with a singlereel ring, and the nickel-silver butt cap is stamped "Paul H. Young Co. Overalllength in 8 1/2', and the cork handle measures 8 13/16'" from cap to thestart of the cane.After contacting the company, I was initially advisedthat the rod may be a possible custom Parabolic 15. Further research andsome input from other PHY rod owners from around the world (notably JanNystrom in Sweden), however, suggested that the rod could be an early This also turned out not to be the case.This is a rod that has become more and more interesting,though, as I have attempted to determine its origins. As I said, I began Todd Young told me, " from the inscription and...low butt taper, it appearsto be essentially an 8'6" "Parabolic 15" [standard Parabolic 15's are8'0"]...Thisis indeed a very interesting rod." Problematic about the rod, however,were the Super Z ferrules which weren't available until the early1950's.The handwriting, I felt, could be a helpful clue, so Icontacted Mr. Bob Summers about it the rod. What he told me was mostenlightening,as well as very intriguing. He said that the writing on the rod is definitelyPaul H. Young's, and that serial numbers were first used around 1955."Withthe super z ferrule I would guess this rod was built [updated?] about1952,"he continued. He then added the most astonishing part of this puzzle ofall. He said, "Your photo looks like the length is 8 1/2'?? [cursed glare- as you can see from the better photo it IS 8 1/2'] If so this may bea one and only or one of a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a early parabolic16 that had the early stepped ferrule and was referruled with the superz." [hence the '52 reference earlier]I hope this is an appropriate forum to ask about help certainly seems to be enough expertise to shed some light on this. paraboliccharacteristics (in spite of my rather clumsy measurements, I'm sure) of measurementsto Mr. Summers that he asked for in his initial response to my inquiry(see below), but I only sent them to him last night and haven't heard back from him yet. be on this message...Anyway, thanks for your attention.Gary(Below is the text of Mr. Summers' response)The writing is Paul H. Young's. The first serial numberwere about 1955. > As far as the light color heat treat. We used some ofthese blanks up into > the 1960"s there are probably still some of thesein the shop. With the > super z ferrule I would guess this rod was builtabout 1952. Your photo > looks like the length is 8 1/2'?? If so this maybe a one and only or one > of a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a earlyparabolic 16 that had the > early stepped ferrule and was referruled withthe super z. If I had > dimension taken ever 6 inches I could tell --------------B41E95E404C4830E4C2BA9B8 --------------B41E95E404C4830E4C2BA9B8 --------------B41E95E404C4830E4C2BA9B8-- --------------78077FE49B9C2A16CABBE286-- from SalarFly@aol.com Wed Sep 15 09:26:19 1999 Subject: Re: Silk lines and other things In a message dated Wed, 15 Sep 1999 9:57:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,jon becktonwrites: Coming out of lurk mode to ask you wise folk a couple of questions. 1. Re all the talk about silk lines, I have a couple of Nottingham reelsthat I picked up in New Zealand a while ago for display. They have silklines on them that have set solid. Is there anything I can use to make'em supple without damaging the wood/brass and what looks like ivoryhandles of the reels? First you have to get the lines off the reel withoutdamaging the line or the reel. If you can remove thespool, do so and soak it in warm to hot water. Aftera few minutes you will be able to unwind the line. To clean off the sticky goo on the line, soak itin warm water with a few tablespoons of baking sodaper half gallon. You will now have a clean silk line. It has to be refinished. I use 3/4 tung oil, 1/8 turpentine and1/8 polyurethane varnish, but there is a lot ofother ingredients and proportions and this withprobably spark a whole new thread. I put the lineand the tung oil mixture in an Erlynmeyer flask andpull a vacuum on it for ten minutes to get totalpenetration in the line. Use red label Mucilin (not anything with siliconein it!) and enjoy fishing your cane rod as it wasmeant to be fished. I have been using a silk lineon my cane rods all season, and enjoy them a lot. Darryl from RMargiotta@aol.com Wed Sep 15 10:29:32 1999 Subject: Re: PHY Parabolic 16? In Martin Keane's Catalog 68 (1995) he sold a Para16. Here is the description: Extremely rare Para-16, 8 1/2', 2/2, 4 1/2 oz. for #7 line. Young records indicate that only 12 of these rods were built. Paul considered this model his most powerful creation for its weight, rod was refinsihed with tanwraps over its flamed shafts, Wells grip, SL cork seat, has the proper .305 diameter butt, which makes this rod so absolutely amazing... Excellent condition $2100. Martin owns the original records of production for the Young company (sohe says in his catalogs) so hopefully that's where he's getting his data. --Rich from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Wed Sep 15 10:42:10 1999 0400 Subject: taper archive Where has the taper archive on the rodmakers web site gone? I've beentrying for a few days to research the PHY para 15 taper (I think its goingto be my next rod) and all I get is a "file not found" message. from jackdale@uswest.net Wed Sep 15 13:05:29 1999 (209.180.254.227) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics 09B6A9B46B314899F91B9CD1" --------------09B6A9B46B314899F91B9CD1 Guys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear yourarguments on both sides. Bill, can you back this statement up withfacts? Terry, how would you counter Biull's argument and what factswould you offer in response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that doesnot mean that all opinions are valid. In this case, you appearclearly to be mistaken. Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are beingbuilt today. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapers are not the onlycriteria of a cane rod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmonrods that are asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago.I do not think that any contemporary rod builder could makea 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looksstraight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats inseveral spotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of theirprocess, it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, isthat even possible?there are only so many numbers available for a given linewt. rod length,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hardenough you wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------09B6A9B46B314899F91B9CD1 Guys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your factswould you offer in response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that does not mean that all Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built Bill-----OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <rafick@fwi.com>Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, September12,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a canerod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods thatare asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in severalspotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their process,it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is that evenpossible?there are only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rodlength,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard enoughyou wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------09B6A9B46B314899F91B9CD1-- from Fallcreek9@aol.com Wed Sep 15 13:51:28 1999 Subject: Re: Bags for rods Mike: I like a light-weight polished cotton. Seems to me that some of the heavy, stiff materials could put a rod in a bend unless the rod tube ismaybe larger than otherwise necessary for the rod in question. I think such abend could cause a set. Regards, Richard Tyree from darrelll@earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 15:13:40 1999 Subject: Re: Carlisle Gathering Ditto Bob, I had a great time and met a lot of great new friends... A special thanks toFred... sorry I didn't get a chance to thank you for your hospitality...THANKS!!! Tom Whittle and all the others who helped put on the gathering... It was afantastic time, too bad it had to end so soon... Darrell Lee -----Original Message----- Subject: Carlisle Gathering Just a note to thank all those who contributed to the success of theCarlisle rodmakers gathering. Thanks to all the speakers for thestories, information, updates and demonstrations. Thanks also to thevendors for both being there with their products and donating doorprizes. Thanks to Tom Whittle, the organizers and the Cumberland TUchapter for organizing and hosting the gathering. And last of all,thanks to all of the rodmakers for sharing ideas and having great rodsto cast (and increasing my list of rod tapers I want to build formyself). It's nice to be part of a unselfish group that is so willingto share ideas and help the art of rodmaking grow and flourish. God BlessBob Williams from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 15:32:49 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics boundary="------------343E66099F7384DB1F2D3671" --------------343E66099F7384DB1F2D3671 Jack,we are all making flyrods on an amateur basis with with the luxury ofnot having to worry about how long the bloody things take. Some of therods we produce may well be cosmetically great, and so they should be,we are making them one at a time.We cannot supply today's small market of cane enthusiasts with rods eventhough there are probably more than a thousand guys planing away!We have guys on the list that bad mouth companies like Heddon and SouthBend and compare their rods against them. These rods were made in hugequantities and the cane work was excellent. The rods were made for theanglers of the day who did not seem to mind cheaper components if itlowered the price without spoiling the action. Now we have a generationof anglers who's idea of a good rod is the complete reverse!I have a friend that has built a collection of these "cheap" rods thathe has picked up over the years and refinished.. He says he never paidmore than $20 for a rod They are great looking rods that cast well, farbetter than much of the skinny stuff being made today.I know the guys on the list are all making the best rods in the world, Icannot understand why a refinished Payne with one short tip is worth somuch more than ours?Terry Jack Dale wrote: Guys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear yourarguments on both sides. Bill, can you back this statement up withfacts? Terry, how would you counter Biull's argument and what factswould you offer in response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that doesnot mean that all opinions are valid. In this case, you appearclearly to be mistaken. Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are beingbuilt today.cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net ;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapers are not theonly criteria of a cane rod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmonrods that are asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago.I do not think that any contemporary rod builder couldmake a 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looksstraight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats inseveral spotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of theirprocess, it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, isthat even possible?there are only so many numbers available for a givenline wt. rod length,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to lookhard enough you wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------343E66099F7384DB1F2D3671 Jack,we are all making flyrods on an amateur basis with with the luxuryof not having to worry about how long the bloody things take. Some of the be, we are making them one at a time.We cannot supply today's small market of cane enthusiasts with rodseven though there are probably more than a thousand guys planing away!We have guys on the list that bad mouth companies like Heddon andSouthBend and compare their rods against them. These rods were made in hugequantities and the cane work was excellent. The rods were made for theanglers of the day who did not seem to mind cheaper components if itloweredthe price without spoiling the action. Now we have a generation of anglerswho's idea of a good rod is the complete reverse!I have a friend that has built a collection of these "cheap" rods thathe has picked up over the years and refinished.. He says he never paid far better than much of the skinny stuff being made today.I know the guys on the list are all making the best rods in the world,I cannot understand why a refinished Payne with one short tip is worthso much more than ours?Terry Jack Dale wrote:Guys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your factswould you offer in response?Jack DaleWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that does not mean that all Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers,Bill----- OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <rafick@fwi.com>Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, September 12,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a canerod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods thatare asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry."R.A.Fick" wrote:PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in severalspotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their process,it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is that evenpossible?there are only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rodlength,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard enoughyou wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------343E66099F7384DB1F2D3671-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 15:48:11 1999 "'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil'" ,"'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'" ,Rodmakers Listserv Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Tony,I did say try it.Above and below the node the grain does some direction changes and on asawn piece youare going against the grain at some stage, and you being a carpenter knowsall aboutthat!We are hobby rodmakers, no more than that. If it was our main scource ofincome thenwe could compare our rods to Payne and Leonard. I do not think that anyhand planer onthe list makes an income from rod making.Terry Tony Young wrote: I shouldn't get involved but...On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Bill,all these builders used production methods and made rods in quantitiesthat wecan only dream about. They were never cheap rods and required amonths salary topurchase one. Modern rods built one at a time should be infinitelysuperior tothese, but are they? Why aren't they? What is the yard stick? Why is volume an importantissue? It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year old rod next to a brand newcontemporaryrod. Then what the (insert expletive) is all the discussion about? Hand planers cannot saw their strips because a plane will only tear out.Try it!I haven't tried this but why would the presumably sharp plane iron tearout especially on sawed bamboo?The argument about splitting and sawed bamboo must hark back to theneedto rive wood for stronger turnings on things like Windsor chair legs andthe like. In the case of wood this is true but I think it's a bit of afine line between sawing and splitting bamboo unless as you say thesawn bamboo is more prone to tear out. Tony from cmj@post11.tele.dk Wed Sep 15 16:26:21 1999 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEFFD2.33185400" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEFFD2.33185400 Terry wrote Terry wrote = <I know the guys on the list are= the best rods in the world, I cannot <understand why a refinished = one short tip is worth so much more than <ours? Well, what I don´tunderstand = Garrisons rods are the most expensive of them all. I mean, he was an = only made some six hundred rods! Could it simply be the fact, that old is good if it = You have all seen it:Old stuff worth thousands of dollars, so ugly that = made today, noone would buy it. I mean, people pay hundres of dollars = Barbie dolls, God help me. And how about a car from the twenties? Costs more= car, but does it do the job of driving safely, securely and ecenomical = Certainly not, but still, there are buyers. Collectors value, I think it = called. So, Terry, Your argumentation about the old Payne = new rod is not valid - simply because of the scarcity of the Payne. I = thats why mass fabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne or Garrison, = the new rod is priced according to the working hours, measured in todays = Just my 2 cents regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEFFD2.33185400-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 16:31:37 1999 "'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil'" ,"'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'" ,Rodmakers Listserv Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Barry,all production rods were sawn. They stayed straighter for a lot longerbecausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can be sure that therewillno change in the moisture content of your rod then a heat straightened rodwillstay straight. This is very difficult in North America where there are widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most makers leave their rods "naked" underthegrip which will allow the cane to follow the relative humidity and achance ofthe ferrule pulling off in dry weather if the rod was built in a humidatmosphere.There is, happily, more to rodmaking than multi coats of varnish and aflashyreel seat.Terry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: A very interesting discussion. Seems to me that it would be a lot easiertosaw strips straight than it is to do all the things we do with crookedsplitstrips. It could be done with some very standard shop tools. If the problem is that sawed strips cannot be hand planed (because thebladecatches on the ends of the cut fibers??) then maybe we should begrinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through all the arcana ofprecision hand planing for a quality rod, I'm sure as hell willing to figureout how to sand or mill them instead. Does anyone know of any actual evidence that splitting is superior? Ofcourse it preserves the full length of more fibers, but nodeless rods havemore partial fibers than one with sawed strips and I don't believe theysuffer. Barry Kling -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:21 PM Cc: 'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil';'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'; Rodmakers ListservSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Bill,all these builders used production methods and made rods inquantities that wecan only dream about. They were never cheap rods andrequired a months salary topurchase one. Modern rods built one at a time should beinfinitely superior tothese, but are they?It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year old rod next to a brandnew contemporaryrod.Most of the old makers did not split their culms but sawedthem which I thinkhad an effect on the ability of a rod to stay straight. Canehas a memory andsplit and straightened strips tend to resume their formerposition if themoisture content changes.Hand planers cannot saw their strips because a plane willonly tear out. Try it! Terry"Lamberson, William R." wrote: In examining a number of older, high quality rods from F.E. Thomas,Leonard, Orvis and other makers, I have been veryimpressed with theirstraightness, and how that characteristic has beenretained for many years.In that respect I think they are superior to many, but notall rods that arebeing made today. Why might that be true? One majorrodmaker, now retired,agrees, and suggests the difference is likely due toearlier qualityrodmakers rejecting inferior culms and sections at a highrate. Bamboo waspurchased in high volume and labor was cheap so it waseconomically feasibleto sort cane and reject sections up until the time thatcomponents wereadded. That may be the reason that many glued-up sectionsare sometimesavailable from companies that have gone out of business. I suspect that most of us have a stock of cane(admittedly, high averagequality) that amounts to a few tens of culms and we arereluctant to evenreject even the poorer half, myself certainly included.Many of us may nothave seen enough cane to even be capable of doing so. Forsome thesituation may be improved by purchasing from dealers thatgrade cane priorto sale. Others may have been fortunate to be able topurchase good cane from commercial builders that had a large stock on hand,such as WaltonPowell. Once we have put the effort into splitting, straighteningplaning andgluing, it is even less likely that we are willing todiscard a proportionof the sections that are inferior. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 8:13 AM Subject: RE: Bastard & Ethics Given that the same/or better grade of cane is availabletoday then thecurrent makers should be able to fabricate a supperiorproduct based on thesimple fact that that all the other materials and toolsare better. Much ofthe "black magic" from the old days is now technology,i.e. the guys knowexactly why they are doing things, and what causes it tohappen. Ralph Shuey ex-Manufacturing Engineering Chief -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics Terry Salmon rods in the 12 - 15 feet size are indeed madetoday. I've castseveral,made by rodmakers/friends, members of the same fishingclub as myself.Am going to make one myself this coming winter, a 12'#8-9and dont seewhyit should be harder than any other rod. I have,obviously, asked thosewha have already done such a rod and been told to procedeas with anyother flyrod. regards, Carsten Jorgensen from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Sep 15 16:42:46 1999 Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:42:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BEFFA1.4E3890A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BEFFA1.4E3890A0 Jack, Well, holy cow! Are Terry and I supposed to square off and come out =fighting, or something? But, here's what I believe. We amateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly =a decade, the unprecedented advantages of: superior gluessuperior and plentiful componentssuperior varnishes (finishes)more finely "tuned" planing forms, binders, bevelers and/or mills = obtain more precise tolerancesan open forum (thanks to The Planing Form, regional gatherings, and = techniques. This last advantage is the greatest of all in that, we makers are =willing and able, for the first time in history, to compare notes, to =cast one another's rods, and thereby to continue "raising the ante" in =craftsmanship, design, as well as aesthetics. There have never before =been so many rod-makers as at present, and we have all been encouraging= As to evidence or facts, I would suggest you gather that for yourself. =Go to some of the rod-makers' gatherings, or go to some of the major = a look at some of the stuff that's out there. Sure, there are a lot of =contemporary makers who are making junk (even nice looking junk), but we=are concerned with excellence, and the truly excellent rods of =yesteryear were not as good as the truly excellent rods of today. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Jack Dale Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net ; rafick@fwi.com =; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net ; =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your =arguments on both sides. Bill, can you back this statement up with =facts? Terry, how would you counter Biull's argument and what facts = Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that =does not mean that all opinions are valid. In this case, you appear =clearly to be mistaken. Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built = Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net ; = Subject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only = also "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon = I do not think that any contemporary rod builder could make = because most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks = No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in = on each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their = As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is = there are only so many numbers available for a given line = no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard = www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BEFFA1.4E3890A0 Jack, Well, holy something? But, here's what I= We amateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the advantages of: hand-building and for any amount of experimentation = glues components (finishes) forms, = tolerances on design, materials and building techniques. This lastadvantage = greatest of all in that, we makers are willing and able, for the first = history, to compare notes, to cast one another's rods, and thereby to = = been encouraging one another, for a decade, in our mutual pursuit to = As to evidence or= a look at some of the stuff that's out = Sure, there are a lot of contemporary makers who are making junk (even = looking junk), but we are concerned with excellence, and the truly excellent rodsof = were not as good as the truly excellent rods of =today. Just my Bill -----Original = HARMS1@prodigy.net = hexagon@odyssee.net rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: = & Maker's EthicsGuys, I am prepared to= how would you counter Biull's argument and what facts would you = of course, but that does not mean that all opinions are = rods, BY FAR, are being built = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Date: Sunday, = EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a = There are are processes that also "make" a rod = have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods that are as = because most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that = straight. The best rods are not being built today, = only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rod = ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BEFFA1.4E3890A0-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Sep 15 16:43:00 1999 Subject: Re: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics jackdale@uswest.net rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 9/15/99 8:55:21 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net wrote: Terry - Why does an egg by Faberge sell for a whole lot more than onemade by a chicken? I guess you are paying for the name and the scarcity, eventhough the anonymous chicken presumably knows a whole lot about making eggs.I agree with Bill, I think the best rods are being made today. I got into this because I like to cast cane flyrods, and have cast a bunch of them. The best of what is being built today is at least the equal of the old mastersin the casting department, and in many cases superior.You have said in the past that we are reinventing the wheel, and I thinkyou have a point. The difference is that we are doing it in public this time. I think the situation is somewhat analagous to what happened with thegreat violins. When the traditions of the Amati, Stradivarius and their contemporaries were lost, no one could make as good a violin, and peoplewent around moaning about a lost secret. Fairly recently, people realized there wasn't any big lost secret, just a bunch of small things that added up to a big difference. I started out doing everything ala Garrison, I do almost nothing his way anymore. I'll bet I have a lot of company, and the reason is because of the free exchange of information. All of our rods may not be the best in the world, but they are better than they would be without the informationnetwork we have built. Nothing against the old masters, but they were dealing in a more competitive market and had families to feed. Many of us do have the luxury of being able to spend more time, and some are producingcommesurate results. from jackdale@uswest.net Wed Sep 15 17:25:01 1999 (209.180.254.227) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics BDCDA9FFEBA85366AFED298E" --------------BDCDA9FFEBA85366AFED298E Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you doeither. I just wanted to hear the arguments you both might make,especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal judgement and taste. I just went back and looked at my replyto Terry to see if it went out to the List as well as to Terry and ithad not. Therefore, here it is: You make a good point. I've got rods made in the past by some of thegreat builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the "cheap"production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't choose "thebest" among them if you held a gun to my head. However, each one turnedout to beworth exactly what I paid for it, by definition. Some of the "cheap"production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheap when Iacquired them, but I can'tthink of one that I'd willingly part with. The new rods, however, costme FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to pay theircost. I guess Worth =Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you've gotin your pocket at the time. Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to the rodmaker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod to someone youlike and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have to fish.Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is entering into the"line of succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who hasalso made a rod you just have to fish. On the other hand, a person'sgot to be a sucker forsomething and I can think of worse vices. Some folks are just biggersuckers than others and always have been. Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'msophisticated enough in my ability to judge the objective quality of anygiven rod to be able to agree or disagree with your last comparativestatement. However, old or new, I do know junk from gems when I seethem or cast them. Thanks for responding to my question.Cordially,Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Jack, Well, holy cow! Are Terry and I supposed to square off andcome out fighting, or something? But, here's what I believe. Weamateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the unprecedentedadvantages of: free time for hand-building and for any amount ofexperimentation superior glues superior and plentifulcomponents superior varnishes (finishes) more finely "tuned"planing forms, binders, bevelers and/or mills enabling us toobtain more precise tolerances an open forum (thanks to The PlaningForm, regional gatherings, and this Listserve) for the freeexchange of ideas on design, materials and building techniques. Thislast advantage is the greatest of all in that, we makers are willingand able, for the first time in history, to compare notes, to cast oneanother's rods, and thereby to continue "raising the ante" incraftsmanship, design, as well as aesthetics. There have never beforebeen so many rod-makers as at present, and we have all beenencouraging one another, for a decade, in our mutual pursuit to buildbetter rods. As to evidence or facts, I would suggest you gather that of the major fly-fishing shows and just havea look at some of thestuff that's out there. Sure, there are a lot of contemporary makerswho are making junk (even nice looking junk), but we are concernedwith excellence, and the truly excellent rods of yesteryear were notas good as the truly excellent rods of today. Just myopinion... cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Jack Dale Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net ;rafick@fwi.com ; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like tohear your arguments on both sides. Bill, can you back thisstatement up with facts? Terry, how would you counterBiull's argument and what facts would you offer in response? Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course, butthat does not mean that all opinions are valid. In thiscase, you appear clearly to be mistaken. Indeed, the bestrods, BY FAR, are being built today. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapers arenot the only criteria of a cane rod. There areare processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ftlight salmon rods that are asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago.I do not think that any contemporary rodbuilder could make a 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rodthat looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just acrossthe flats in several spotson each section to get an idea of the accuracyof their process, it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble noothers, is that even possible?there are only so many numbers available for agiven line wt. rod length,no.of sections etc. I think that if one wereto look hard enough you wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------BDCDA9FFEBA85366AFED298E Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you do especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal Terry Therefore, here it is: of the great builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the"cheap"production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't choose one turned out to be "cheap" production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheapwhenI acquired them, but I can't however,cost me FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to pay their Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you'vegot in your pocket at the time. Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to therod maker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod to someoneyou like and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have to Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is entering into the "lineof succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who has got to be a sucker for bigger suckers than others and always have been. Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'm sophisticatedenough in my ability to judge the objective quality of any given rod to However, old or new, I do know junk from gems when I see them or cast Thanks for responding to my question.Cordially,Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: fighting, free time for hand-building and for any amount of superior more finely "tuned" planing forms, binders, bevelers and/or mills enabling an open forum (thanks to The Planing Form, regional gatherings, last advantage is the greatest of all in that, we makers are willing andable, for the first time in history, to compare notes, to cast one another'srods, and thereby to continue "raising the ante" in craftsmanship, design, manyrod-makers as at present, and we have all been encouraging one another, Go to some of the rod-makers' gatherings, or go to some of the major fly- fishingshows and just havealook at someof makers who are making junk (even nice looking junk), but we areconcernedwith excellence, and the truly excellentrods of yesteryear were not as good as the truly excellent rods of -----OriginalMessage-----From: Jack Dale <jackdale@uswest.net> <HARMS1@prodigy.net>Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net<hexagon@odyssee.net>; rafick@fwi.com<rafick@fwi.com>; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Wednesday,September15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your factswould you offer in response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that does not mean that all Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers,Bill----- OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <rafick@fwi.com>Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, September12,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a canerod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods thatare asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in severalspotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their process,it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is that evenpossible?there are only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rodlength,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard enoughyou wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------BDCDA9FFEBA85366AFED298E-- from jik@foxinternet.net Wed Sep 15 17:26:57 1999 0700 Subject: Roughing form 2 There has GOT to be a better way to plane a 30 deg angle into bamboo.I keep having to adjust the plane from one extream to the other tipwise to get remotely a 30 deg angle. Sometimes when it is fullyadjusted and I have it leaning as far as possible I still end up withan off angle. So what are some other ways to do this? from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Sep 15 18:12:14 1999 Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:11:54 -0400 , ,"Rodmakers Listserv" Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEFFAD.CBC0FC40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEFFAD.CBC0FC40 Terry, Two things: First, I guess I do not believe that a hand-split rod is =more likely to respond to internal stresses and return to its original =bends than a rod built of sawn strips. Proper heat-straightening (and =subsequent oven- tempering) has a powerful "melting-effect" upon the =fibers. Other factors may cause a given rod to "take a set," but I do =not believe rod-sets are caused by the once-straightened strips trying =to twist themselves back again. Other, "true" woods will indeed do =this, but the fibers in bamboo, being nearly plastic, exclusively =longitudinal, and independent of one another, are not like wood. And secondly, ambient humidity will be taken on and released by a bamboo=fly rod regardless of the finish, and regardless of whether or not the =cane under the grip has been treated. It's gonna happen, period. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- 'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil' ; ='scan.oest@post.tele.dk' ; Rodmakers Listserv = Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Barry,all production rods were sawn. They stayed straighter for a lot =longer becausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can be sure that =there willno change in the moisture content of your rod then a heat =straightened rod willstay straight. This is very difficult in North America where there =are widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most makers leave their rods "naked" =under thegrip which will allow the cane to follow the relative humidity and a =chance ofthe ferrule pulling off in dry weather if the rod was built in a =humidatmosphere.There is, happily, more to rodmaking than multi coats of varnish and =a flashyreel seat.Terry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: A very interesting discussion. Seems to me that it would be a lot =easier tosaw strips straight than it is to do all the things we do with =crooked splitstrips. It could be done with some very standard shop tools. If the problem is that sawed strips cannot be hand planed (because =the bladecatches on the ends of the cut fibers??) then maybe we should begrinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through all the =arcana ofprecision hand planing for a quality rod, I'm sure as hell willing =to figureout how to sand or mill them instead. Does anyone know of any actual evidence that splitting is =superior? Ofcourse it preserves the full length of more fibers, but nodeless =rods havemore partial fibers than one with sawed strips and I don't believe =theysuffer. Barry Kling -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND = Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:21 PM Cc: 'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil';'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'; Rodmakers ListservSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Bill,all these builders used production methods and =made rods inquantities that wecan only dream about. They were never cheap rods =andrequired a months salary topurchase one. Modern rods built one at a time =should beinfinitely superior tothese, but are they?It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year old rod next =to a brandnew contemporaryrod.Most of the old makers did not split their culms =but sawedthem which I thinkhad an effect on the ability of a rod to stay =straight. Canehas a memory andsplit and straightened strips tend to resume their =formerposition if themoisture content changes.Hand planers cannot saw their strips because a =plane willonly tear out. Try it! Terry"Lamberson, William R." wrote: In examining a number of older, high quality =rods from F.E. Thomas,Leonard, Orvis and other makers, I have been =veryimpressed with theirstraightness, and how that characteristic has =beenretained for many years.In that respect I think they are superior to =many, but notall rods that arebeing made today. Why might that be true? One =majorrodmaker, now retired,agrees, and suggests the difference is likely =due toearlier qualityrodmakers rejecting inferior culms and sections =at a highrate. Bamboo waspurchased in high volume and labor was cheap so =it waseconomically feasibleto sort cane and reject sections up until the =time thatcomponents wereadded. That may be the reason that many =glued-up sectionsare sometimesavailable from companies that have gone out of =business. I suspect that most of us have a stock of cane(admittedly, high averagequality) that amounts to a few tens of culms and =we arereluctant to evenreject even the poorer half, myself certainly =included.Many of us may nothave seen enough cane to even be capable of =doing so. Forsome thesituation may be improved by purchasing from =dealers thatgrade cane priorto sale. Others may have been fortunate to be =able topurchase good cane from commercial builders that had a large stock =on hand,such as WaltonPowell. Once we have put the effort into splitting, =straighteningplaning andgluing, it is even less likely that we are =willing todiscard a proportionof the sections that are inferior. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message-----From: Shuey, Ralph = Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 8:13 AM Subject: RE: Bastard & Ethics Given that the same/or better grade of cane is =availabletoday then thecurrent makers should be able to fabricate a =supperiorproduct based on thesimple fact that that all the other materials =and toolsare better. Much ofthe "black magic" from the old days is now =technology,i.e. the guys knowexactly why they are doing things, and what =causes it tohappen. Ralph Shuey ex-Manufacturing Engineering Chief -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics Terry Salmon rods in the 12 - 15 feet size are indeed =madetoday. I=B4ve castseveral,made by rodmakers/friends, members of the same =fishingclub as myself.Am going to make one myself this coming winter, =a 12=B4#8- 9and dont seewhyit should be harder than any other rod. I =have,obviously, asked thosewha have already done such a rod and been told =to procedeas with anyother flyrod. regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEFFAD.CBC0FC40 Terry, = I do not believe that a hand-split rod is more likely to respond to = stresses and return to its original bends than a rod built of sawn = Proper heat-straightening (and subsequent oven-tempering) has apowerful = given rod to "take a set," but I do not believe rod-sets are = the once-straightened strips trying to twist themselves back = "true" woods will indeed do this, but the fibers in bamboo, = nearly plastic, exclusively longitudinal, and independent of one = not like wood. And secondly,ambient = will be taken on and released by a bamboo fly rod regardless of the = regardless of whether or not the cane under the grip has been = period. Bill -----Original = KlingB@health.missouri.edu=<KlingB@health.missouri.edu= 'ralph.shuey@redstone.arm= <ralph.shuey@redstone.army.m= 'scan.oest@post.tele.dk' = Listserv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 15, 1999 2:44 PMSubject: Re:Bastard = Ethics becausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can be = that there willno change in the moisture content of your rod = straightened rod willstay straight. This is very difficult in = America where there are widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most= leave their rods "naked" under thegrip which will = cane to follow the relative humidity and a chance ofthe ferrule = off in dry weather if the rod was built in a = flashyreel seat.Terry"Kling, Barry= grinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through all the = = =Message----- = = & = = = all these builders used production methods and made rods = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =Message----- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =Message----- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEFFAD.CBC0FC40-- from channer@hubwest.com Wed Sep 15 18:14:57 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A8CF1CCB00EE; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:16:31 MST Subject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics At 05:39 PM 09/15/1999 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Jack, Are Terry and I supposed to square off and come outfighting, or something? We amateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly adecade, the unprecedented advantages of: free time for hand-buildingand for any amount of experimentation superior glues superiorand plentiful components superior varnishes (finishes) "" obtain more precise tolerances an open forum (thanks to ThePlaning Form, regional gatherings, and this Listserve) for thefree exchange of ideas on design, materials and building techniques. "" There have never before been so many Go to some of the rod-makers' gatherings, or go to some of the major fly-fishing shows and just have alook Sure, there are a lot of contemporary makers who are making junk(even nice looking junk), but we are concerned with excellence, and thetruly excellent rods of yesteryear were not as good as the trulyexcellentrods of today. Just my opinion... cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Bill;Don't forget the fact that Orvis, T&T, and Winston had the good manners tomake their rods so expensive that those of us that have to work for aliving can sell a few rods and be able to afford to make some more.John from channer@hubwest.com Wed Sep 15 18:20:41 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AA27B42009A; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:22:15 MST Subject: Re: Roughing form 2 At 03:21 PM 09/15/1999 -0700, Noah Roberts (jik-) wrote:There has GOT to be a better way to plane a 30 deg angle into bamboo.I keep having to adjust the plane from one extream to the other tipwise to get remotely a 30 deg angle. Sometimes when it is fullyadjusted and I have it leaning as far as possible I still end up withan off angle. So what are some other ways to do this? Noah;No offence meant, but it is probably not the plane, but the hand holdingit. Try using a mirror at the end of your form and watch your plane as youwork, you might find that you are not holding it parrallel to the form.Also, try making your rough form a lttle deeper, so it support more of thestrip. I have taken to skipping the first form that every one talks aboutand jut using the second form withe the 60d groove in it. I flip the stripevery 2,3,4 or so passes and wind up with a strip that is just as accurateas one I have done with both forms.John from TSmithwick@aol.com Wed Sep 15 18:29:20 1999 Subject: Re: Roughing form 2 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu In a message dated 9/15/99 10:31:18 PM, jik@foxinternet.net wrote: I did not see your first post, but if you are using a Garrison style rough form for the first angle, I would advise you to throw it away. Work with a deep V groove instead. Alternate sides of the strip every couple passes.Yes, your first passes will be at a wrong angle, but the strip will sit more easily in the deep groove, and the angle will correct itself in short order. Trust me, it works. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Sep 15 18:32:37 1999 Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:32:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0082_01BEFFB0.AC5C2700" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01BEFFB0.AC5C2700 John, Indeed! And an excellent point, too. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: channer Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:19 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics At 05:39 PM 09/15/1999 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:Jack, Are Terry and I supposed to square off and come outfighting, or something? We amateurs today have enjoyed, for =nearly adecade, the unprecedented advantages of: free time for =hand-buildingand for any amount of experimentation superior glues =superiorand plentiful components superior varnishes (finishes) "" = obtain more precise tolerances an open forum (thanks to =ThePlaning Form, regional gatherings, and this Listserve) = free exchange of ideas on design, materials and building = There have never before been so many Go to some of the = gatherings, or go to some of the major fly-fishing shows and just =have alook Sure, there are a lot of contemporary makers who are making =junk(even nice looking junk), but we are concerned with excellence, =and thetruly excellent rods of yesteryear were not as good as the truly =excellentrods of today. Just my opinion... cheers, Bill = -----Original Message----- Bill;Don't forget the fact that Orvis, T&T, and Winston had the good =manners tomake their rods so expensive that those of us that have to work for =aliving can sell a few rods and be able to afford to make some more.John ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01BEFFB0.AC5C2700 John, an = point, too. Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:19 PMSubject: Re: = & Maker's EthicsAt 05:39 PM 09/15/1999 = any amount of = = that Orvis, T&T, and Winston had the good manners tomake = so expensive that those of us that have to work for aliving can = more.John ------=_NextPart_000_0082_01BEFFB0.AC5C2700-- from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 15 18:51:37 1999 with ESMTP id +0000 Subject: Rodmakers' Taper archive 7bit All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from CAdams46@compuserve.com Wed Sep 15 20:43:23 1999 Subject: thanks Thanks to all those folks out their that replied to the 10wt. taper andoffered to help. Really appreciated it. Hadn't crossed my mind to take afavorite taper change it a bit using the hex rod. Really appreciated it.C.R. Adams from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 20:56:13 1999 HARMS1@prodigy.net,rafick@fwi.com, pmgoodwin@earthlink.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics But you are comparing a freshly made rod with with a rod that was madeperhaps 50years ago. How can that be fair? Cane, unless cared for will never performas itdid when new. Most of those old rods used Tung oil varnish that slowlybreaksdown over time.There are secrets that the professional rodmakers practiced that have notsurfaced on this list or are in the Garrison or other knock off books.The last gathering I attended bristled with contemporary rods and none ofthemwas straight. The one exception was a used Bob Summers rod and he canhardly beclassed as a contemporary.I emailed him recently and mentioned my observations and he said he wastoo busyhunting, fishing and making rods to worry about what everyone else wasdoing.I guess he learned his technique from P. Young and does not need books andvideos, even with the latest "innovations" TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/15/99 8:55:21 PM, hexagon@odyssee.net wrote: cannot understand why a refinished Payne with one short tip is worth somuch more than ours?>> Terry - Why does an egg by Faberge sell for a whole lot more than onemade bya chicken? I guess you are paying for the name and the scarcity, eventhoughthe anonymous chicken presumably knows a whole lot about making eggs.I agree with Bill, I think the best rods are being made today. I got intothis because I like to cast cane flyrods, and have cast a bunch of them.Thebest of what is being built today is at least the equal of the old mastersinthe casting department, and in many cases superior.You have said in the past that we are reinventing the wheel, and I thinkyouhave a point. The difference is that we are doing it in public this time. Ithink the situation is somewhat analagous to what happened with thegreatviolins. When the traditions of the Amati, Stradivarius and theircontemporaries were lost, no one could make as good a violin, and peoplewentaround moaning about a lost secret. Fairly recently, people realized therewasn't any big lost secret, just a bunch of small things that added up toabig difference.I started out doing everything ala Garrison, I do almost nothing his wayanymore. I'll bet I have a lot of company, and the reason is because of thefree exchange of information. All of our rods may not be the best in theworld, but they are better than they would be without the informationnetworkwe have built. Nothing against the old masters, but they were dealing inamore competitive market and had families to feed. Many of us do havetheluxury of being able to spend more time, and some are producingcommesurateresults. from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 21:13:52 1999 Subject: Re: Re.: Bastard & Ethics boundary="------------6D8188959A19B7E8B43D4246" --------------6D8188959A19B7E8B43D4246 The market decides what is the best rod, not the makers unfortunately.If an old fixed-up Payne sells for more than one of your masterpieces itis because it is worth more!You may think you can make a better rod than Payne but you have toconvince the market that you can and then be prepared to produceconsistantly good rods in the quantity that Payne did. This is where wewould all fall on our arses. Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry wrote best rods in the world, I cannot with one short tip is worth so much more than don't understand is, why Garrisons rods are the most expensive of themall. I mean, he was an amateur who only made some six hundredrods! Could it simply be the fact, that old is good if it is scarce?You have all seen it:Old stuff worth thousands of dollars, so uglythat if it was made today, noone would buy it. I mean, people payhundres of dollars for old Barbie dolls, God help me. And how about acar from the twenties? Costs more than a new car, but does it do thejob of driving safely, securely and ecenomical as well? Certainly not,but still, there are buyers. Collectors value, I think it iscalled. So, Terry, Your argumentation about the old Payne versus thenew rod is not valid - simply because of the scarcity of the Payne. Iguess thats why mass fabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne orGarrison, whereas the new rod is priced according to the workinghours, measured in todays price, put in to it. Just my 2cents regards, Carsten Jorgensen --------------6D8188959A19B7E8B43D4246 The market decides what is the best rod, not the makers unfortunately.If an old fixed-up Payne sells for more than one of your masterpieces it to convince the market that you can and then be prepared to produceconsistantlygood rods in the quantity that Payne did. This is where we would all fallon our arses.Carsten Jørgensen wrote: wrote know the guys on the list are all making the best rods in the world, Icannot <understand why a refinished Payne with one short tip is worth what I don´t understand is, why Garrisons rods are the mostexpensiveof them all. I mean, he was an amateur who only made some six hundred it simply be the fact, that old is good if it is scarce? You have all seenit:Old stuff worth thousands of dollars, so ugly thatif it was made today, noone would buy it. I mean, people pay hundres of how about a car from the twenties? Costs more than a new car, but doesit do the job of driving safely, securely and ecenomical as well? Certainlynot, but still, there are buyers. Collectors value, I think it is Terry, Your argumentation about the old Payne versus the new rod is notvalid - simply because of the scarcity of the Payne. I guess thats whymass fabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne or Garrison, whereasthenew rod is priced according to the working hours, measured in todays Jorgensen --------------6D8188959A19B7E8B43D4246-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 21:41:27 1999 "Lamberson, William R." ,ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil, scan.oest@post.tele.dk,Rodmakers Listserv Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics boundary="------------07E8589DC0983ECF6DD29B7B" --------------07E8589DC0983ECF6DD29B7B Bill, from my experience heat treating does nothing to the internal fibers ofthe cane. It drives out the moisture, gives some colour, It certainlydoes not give cane a magic quality and there is no plastifying . Canebehaves just like wood.Most of the old makers managed to control the problem of seasonalhumidity fluctuations better than today.Could you honestly build a 14ft rod using the methods of Garrison'sbook? It is hard enough making a 7 ft rod look straight. Imagine a 14ftrod?Terry WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry, Two things: First, I guess I do not believe that a hand-splitrod is more likely to respond to internal stresses and return to itsoriginal bends than a rod built of sawn strips. Properheat-straightening (and subsequent oven- tempering) has a powerful"melting-effect" upon the fibers. Other factors may cause a given rodto "take a set," but I do not believe rod-sets are caused by theonce-straightened strips trying to twist themselves back again.Other, "true" woods will indeed do this, but the fibers in bamboo,being nearly plastic, exclusively longitudinal, and independent of oneanother, are not like wood. And secondly, ambient humidity will betaken on and released by a bamboo fly rod regardless of the finish,and regardless of whether or not the cane under the grip has beentreated. It's gonna happen, period. cheers, Bill -----OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: Lamberson, William R. ;'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil' ;'scan.oest@post.tele.dk' ; Rodmakers Listserv Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 2:44 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Barry,all production rods were sawn. They stayed straighter for alot longer becausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can besure that there willno change in the moisture content of your rod then a heatstraightened rod willstay straight. This is very difficult in North America wherethere are widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most makers leave their rods"naked" under thegrip which will allow the cane to follow the relativehumidity and a chance ofthe ferrule pulling off in dry weather if the rod was builtin a humidatmosphere.There is, happily, more to rodmaking than multi coats ofvarnish and a flashyreel seat.Terry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: A very interesting discussion. Seems to me that it wouldbe a lot easier tosaw strips straight than it is to do all the things we dowith crooked splitstrips. It could be done with some very standard shoptools. If the problem is that sawed strips cannot be hand planed(because the bladecatches on the ends of the cut fibers??) then maybe weshould begrinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through allthe arcana ofprecision hand planing for a quality rod, I'm sure as hellwilling to figureout how to sand or mill them instead. Does anyone know of any actual evidence that splitting issuperior? Ofcourse it preserves the full length of more fibers, butnodeless rods havemore partial fibers than one with sawed strips and I don'tbelieve theysuffer. Barry Kling -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:21 PM Cc: 'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil';'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'; Rodmakers ListservSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Bill,all these builders used production methodsand made rods inquantities that wecan only dream about. They were nevercheap rods andrequired a months salary topurchase one. Modern rods built one at atime should beinfinitely superior tothese, but are they?It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year oldrod next to a brandnew contemporaryrod.Most of the old makers did not split theirculms but sawedthem which I thinkhad an effect on the ability of a rod tostay straight. Canehas a memory andsplit and straightened strips tend toresume their formerposition if themoisture content changes.Hand planers cannot saw their stripsbecause a plane willonly tear out. Try it! Terry"Lamberson, William R." wrote: In examining a number of older, highquality rods from F.E. Thomas,Leonard, Orvis and other makers, I havebeen veryimpressed with theirstraightness, and how thatcharacteristic has beenretained for many years.In that respect I think they aresuperior to many, but notall rods that arebeing made today. Why might that betrue? One majorrodmaker, now retired,agrees, and suggests the difference islikely due toearlier qualityrodmakers rejecting inferior culms andsections at a highrate. Bamboo waspurchased in high volume and labor wascheap so it waseconomically feasibleto sort cane and reject sections upuntil the time thatcomponents wereadded. That may be the reason that manyglued-up sectionsare sometimesavailable from companies that have goneout of business. I suspect that most of us have a stockof cane(admittedly, high averagequality) that amounts to a few tens ofculms and we arereluctant to evenreject even the poorer half, myselfcertainly included.Many of us may nothave seen enough cane to even be capableof doing so. Forsome thesituation may be improved by purchasing from dealers thatgrade cane priorto sale. Others may have been fortunateto be able topurchase good cane from commercial builders that had alarge stock on hand,such as WaltonPowell. Once we have put the effort intosplitting, straighteningplaning andgluing, it is even less likely that weare willing todiscard a proportionof the sections that are inferior. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message-----From: Shuey, Ralph Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 8:13 AM ListservSubject: RE: Bastard & Ethics Given that the same/or better grade ofcane is availabletoday then thecurrent makers should be able tofabricate a supperiorproduct based on thesimple fact that that all the othermaterials and toolsare better. Much ofthe "black magic" from the old days isnow technology,i.e. the guys knowexactly why they are doing things, andwhat causes it tohappen. Ralph Shuey ex-Manufacturing Engineering Chief -----Original Message-----From: scan.oest Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics Terry Salmon rods in the 12 - 15 feet size areindeed madetoday. I've castseveral,made by rodmakers/friends, members ofthe same fishingclub as myself.Am going to make one myself this comingwinter, a 12'#8-9and dont seewhyit should be harder than any otherrod. I have,obviously, asked thosewha have already done such a rod andbeen told to procedeas with anyother flyrod. regards, Carsten Jorgensen --------------07E8589DC0983ECF6DD29B7B Bill, from my experience heat treating does nothing to the internal fibersof the cane. It drives out the moisture, gives some colour, It certainlydoes not give cane a magic quality and there is no plastifying . Canebehavesjust like wood.Most of the old makers managed to control the problem of humidity fluctuations better than today. Garrison'sbook? It is hard enough making a 7 ft rod look straight. Imagine a 14ftrod?TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: more likely to respond to internal stresses and return to its original (and subsequent oven-tempering) has a powerful "melting-effect" upon the I do not believe rod-sets are caused by the once-straightened strips trying this, but the fibers in bamboo, being nearly plastic, exclusivelylongitudinal,and independent of one another, are not like secondly, ambient humidity will be taken on and released by a bamboo flyrod regardless of the finish, and regardless of whether or not the cane happen, ---OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <KlingB@health.missouri.edu>Cc: Lamberson, William R.<LambersonW@missouri.edu>;'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil'<ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil>;'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'<scan.oest@post.tele.dk>;Rodmakers Listserv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Wednesday, September15, 1999 2:44 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Ethics Barry,all production rods were sawn. They stayed straighter for a lot longerbecausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can be sure thatthere willno change in the moisture content of your rod then a heat straightenedrod willstay straight. This is very difficult in North America where thereare widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most makers leave their rods "naked"under thegrip which will allow the cane to follow the relative humidity anda chance ofthe ferrule pulling off in dry weather if the rod was built in a humidatmosphere.There is, happily, more to rodmaking than multi coats of varnish anda flashyreel seat.Terry "Kling, Barry W." wrote:A very interesting discussion. Seems to me that it would be a loteasier tosaw strips straight than it is to do all the things we do with crookedsplitstrips. It could be done with some very standard shop tools. If the problem is that sawed strips cannot be hand planed (becausethe bladecatches on the ends of the cut fibers??) then maybe we should begrinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through all the arcanaofprecision hand planing for a quality rod, I'm sure as hell willingto figureout how to sand or mill them instead. Does anyone know of any actual evidence that splitting is superior?Ofcourse it preserves the full length of more fibers, but nodelessrods havemore partial fibers than one with sawed strips and I don't believetheysuffer. Barry Kling -----Original Message----- 'scan.oest@post.tele.dk';Rodmakers Listserv Ethics Bill, all these builders used production methods and made rods inquantities that we can only dream about. They were never cheap rods andrequired a months salary to purchase one. Modern rods built one at a time should beinfinitely superior to these, but are they? It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year old rod next to a brandnew contemporary rod. Most of the old makers did not split their culms but sawedthem which I think had an effect on the ability of a rod to stay straight. Canehas a memory and split and straightened strips tend to resume their formerposition if the moisture content changes. Hand planers cannot saw their strips because a plane willonly tear out. Try it! Terry "Lamberson, William R." wrote: In examining a number of older, high quality rods from F.E. Thomas, Leonard, Orvis and other makers, I have been veryimpressed with their straightness, and how that characteristic has beenretained for many years. In that respect I think they are superior to many, but notall rods that are rodmaker, now retired, agrees, and suggests the difference is likely due toearlier quality rodmakers rejecting inferior culms and sections at a high purchased in high volume and labor was cheap so it waseconomically feasible to sort cane and reject sections up until the time thatcomponents were are sometimes available from companies that have gone out of business. I suspect that most of us have a stock of cane(admittedly, high average quality) that amounts to a few tens of culms and we arereluctant to even reject even the poorer half, myself certainly included.Many of us may not some the situation may be improved by purchasing from dealers thatgrade cane prior purchase good cane from commercial builders that had a large stock on hand,such as Walton Powell. Once we have put the effort into splitting, straighteningplaning and gluing, it is even less likely that we are willing todiscard a proportion of the sections that are inferior. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- From: Shuey, Ralph [ Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 8:13 AM Rodmakers Listserv Subject: RE: Bastard & Ethics Given that the same/or better grade of cane is availabletoday then the current makers should be able to fabricate a supperiorproduct based on the simple fact that that all the other materials and tools the "black magic" from the old days is now technology,i.e. the guys know exactly why they are doing things, and what causes it tohappen. Ralph Shuey ex-Manufacturing Engineering Chief -----Original Message----- ] Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics Terry Salmon rods in the 12 - 15 feet size are indeed madetoday. I´ve cast several, made by rodmakers/friends, members of the same fishingclub as myself. Am going to make one myself this coming winter, a 12´#8-9and dont see whyit should be harder than any other rod. I have,obviously, asked those wha have already done such a rod and been told to procedeas with any other flyrod. regards, Carsten Jorgensen --------------07E8589DC0983ECF6DD29B7B-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 15 22:06:04 1999 pmgoodwin@earthlink.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics boundary="------------7D49F3696D2C9779621F669D" --------------7D49F3696D2C9779621F669D Jack,looking over these "cheap" rods, how was the cane work? I bet the theonly difference was in the quality of the cork, reel seat and generalfinish? After all cane is cane and I am sure that Heddon did not make abad taper because the rod was "cheap", even then we can train themselvesto cast with anything. I know a guy that can put out a whole DT line ona broomstick! (the loop was not too tight, if I had the dimensions ofthe broom the computer guys could run it through HEXROD!)T&T started all this Glamrod crap which has nothing to do withperformance, which for a flyrod should be everything. Unless of courseyou are an equipment poseur.Terry Jack Dale wrote: Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you doeither. I just wanted to hear the arguments you both might make,especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal judgement and taste. I just went back and looked at my replyto Terry to see if it went out to the List as well as to Terry and ithad not. Therefore, here it is: You make a good point. I've got rods made in the past by some of thegreat builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the "cheap"production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't choose"the best" among them if you held a gun to my head. However, each oneturned out to beworth exactly what I paid for it, by definition. Some of the "cheap"production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheap when Iacquired them, but I can'tthink of one that I'd willingly part with. The new rods, however,cost me FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to paytheir cost. I guess Worth =Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you'vegot in your pocket at the time. Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to therod maker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod tosomeone you like and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have tofish. Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is enteringinto the "line of succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who hasalso made a rod you just have to fish. On the other hand, a person'sgot to be a sucker forsomething and I can think of worse vices. Some folks are just biggersuckers than others and always have been. Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'msophisticated enough in my ability to judge the objective quality ofany given rod to be able to agree or disagree with your lastcomparative statement. However, old or new, I do know junk from gemswhen I see them or cast them. Thanks for responding to my question.Cordially,Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Jack, Well, holy cow! Are Terry and I supposed to square off andcome out fighting, or something? But, here's what I believe. Weamateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the unprecedentedadvantages of: free time for hand-building and for any amount ofexperimentation superior glues superior and plentifulcomponents superior varnishes (finishes) more finely "tuned"planing forms, binders, bevelers and/or mills enabling us toobtain more precise tolerances an open forum (thanks to ThePlaning Form, regional gatherings, and this Listserve) forthe free exchange of ideas on design, materials and buildingtechniques. This last advantage is the greatest of all in that, wemakers are willing and able, for the first time in history, tocompare notes, to cast one another's rods, and thereby to continue"raising the ante" in craftsmanship, design, as well as aesthetics.There have never before been so many rod-makers as at present, andwe have all been encouraging one another, for a decade, in ourmutual pursuit to build better rods. As to evidence or facts, Iwould suggest you gather that for yourself. Go to some of therod-makers' gatherings, or go to some of the major fly-fishing showsand just havea look at some of the stuff that's out there. Sure,there are a lot of contemporary makers who are making junk (evennice looking junk), but we are concerned with excellence, and thetruly excellent rods of yesteryear were not as good as the trulyexcellent rods of today. Just my opinion... cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Jack Dale Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net ;rafick@fwi.com ; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like tohear your arguments on both sides. Bill, can you backthis statement up with facts? Terry, how would youcounter Biull's argument and what facts would you offer inresponse?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course,but that does not mean that all opinions are valid. Inthis case, you appear clearly to be mistaken. Indeed,the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapers arenot the only criteria of a cane rod. There areare processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ftlight salmon rods that are asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. I do not think that any contemporary rodbuilder could make a 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rodthat looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry. Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just acrossthe flats in several spotson each section to get an idea of theaccuracy of their process, it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble noothers, is that even possible?there are only so many numbers available fora given line wt. rod length,no.of sections etc. I think that if one wereto look hard enough you wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design. Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------7D49F3696D2C9779621F669D Jack,looking over these "cheap" rods, how was the cane work? I bet the theonly difference was in the quality of the cork, reel seat and general After all cane is cane and I am sure that Heddon did not make a bad taperbecause the rod was "cheap", even then we can train themselves to castwith anything. I know a guy that can put out a whole DT line on abroomstick!(the loop was not too tight, if I had the dimensions of the broom thecomputerguys could run it through HEXROD!)T&T started all this Glamrod crap which has nothing to do withperformance, which for a flyrod should be everything. Unless of courseyou are an equipment poseur.TerryJack Dale wrote:Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you do especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal Terry Therefore, here it is: of the great builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the"cheap"production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't choose one turned out to be "cheap" production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheapwhenI acquired them, but I can't cost me FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to pay their Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you'vegot in your pocket at the time.Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to therod maker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod to someoneyou like and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have to Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is entering into the "lineof succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who has got to be a sucker for bigger suckers than others and always have been.Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'm sophisticatedenough in my ability to judge the objective quality of any given rod to However, old or new, I do know junk from gems when I see them or cast Thanks for responding to my question.Cordially,Jack DaleWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terryand I supposed to square off and come out fighting, orsomething?But, here's what I We amateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the unprecedented bevelers and/or mills enabling us to The Planing Form, regional gatherings, and this techniques.This last advantage is thegreatest of all in that, we makers are willing and able, for the firsttime in history, to compare notes, to cast one another's rods, and therebyto continue "raising the ante" in craftsmanship, design, as well as There have never before been so manyrod-makers as at present, and we have all been encouraging one another, As to evidence or facts, I makers'gatherings, or go to some of the major fly-fishing shows and just havealook there are a lot of contemporary makers who are making junk (even nicelookingjunk), but we are concerned with excellence, and the trulyexcellentrods of yesteryear were not as good as the truly excellent rods oftoday.Just myopinion...cheers,Bill-----OriginalMessage-----From: Jack Dale <jackdale@uswest.net> <HARMS1@prodigy.net>Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net<hexagon@odyssee.net>; rafick@fwi.com<rafick@fwi.com>; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Wednesday, September15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your factswould you offer in response?Jack DaleWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that does not mean that all Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers,Bill----- OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <rafick@fwi.com>Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, September 12,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a canerod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods thatare asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry."R.A.Fick" wrote:PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in severalspotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their process,it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is that evenpossible?there are only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rodlength,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard enoughyou wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------7D49F3696D2C9779621F669D-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Wed Sep 15 22:23:13 1999 Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:33:23 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Re.: Bastard & Ethics wugate.wustl.edu id WAA19836 Possibly the reason is there are collectors & collector/fishers buyingthese things. There's a difference between a collectable rod and a fishingrod though as some-one once said everybody knows porn when they see itit's just a hard thing (pardon the pun) to define, or something like that.The point is there is a dif.Why does anybody pay stupid amounts of money for a stamp with a facevalueof a few cents? The same people would never pay more than face value ifthe stamp were to be posted on a letter.A fishing rod is worth what it is based on a reasonable price the personwill pay based upon the action and unfortunately finish as well.A collector buying a fishing rod won't pay more than it's worth but maypay lots for a collectable rod.It's a different set of rules, the Payne is a collectable and the modernmasterpiece isn't (yet). Tony On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: The market decides what is the best rod, not the makers unfortunately.If an old fixed-up Payne sells for more than one of your masterpieces itis because it is worth more!You may think you can make a better rod than Payne but you have toconvince the market that you can and then be prepared to produceconsistantly good rods in the quantity that Payne did. This is where wewould all fall on our arses. Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry wrote > best rods in the world, I cannot > with one short tip is worth so much more than > don't understand is, why Garrisons rods are the most expensive of themall. I mean, he was an amateur who only made some six hundredrods! Could it simply be the fact, that old is good if it is scarce?You have all seen it:Old stuff worth thousands of dollars, so uglythat if it was made today, noone would buy it. I mean, people payhundres of dollars for old Barbie dolls, God help me. And how about acar from the twenties? Costs more than a new car, but does it do thejob of driving safely, securely and ecenomical as well? Certainly not,but still, there are buyers. Collectors value, I think it iscalled. So, Terry, Your argumentation about the old Payne versus thenew rod is not valid - simply because of the scarcity of the Payne. Iguess thats why mass fabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne orGarrison, whereas the new rod is priced according to the workinghours, measured in todays price, put in to it. Just my 2cents regards, Carsten Jorgensen /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from jhewitt@cmn.net Wed Sep 15 23:02:59 1999 Subject: Re: Re.: Bastard & Ethics 11D5B30BB67456BD3B5D19D6" --------------11D5B30BB67456BD3B5D19D6 "T"Yours must be black and blue!! TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: The market decides what is the best rod, not the makersunfortunately. If an old fixed-up Payne sells for more than one ofyour masterpieces it is because it is worth more!You may think you can make a better rod than Payne but you have toconvince the market that you can and then be prepared to produceconsistantly good rods in the quantity that Payne did. This is wherewe would all fall on our arses. Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry wrote > the best rods in the world, I cannot > Payne with one short tip is worth so much more than > what I don't understand is, why Garrisons rods are the mostexpensive of them all. I mean, he was an amateur who only made somesix hundred rods! Could it simply be the fact, that old is good ifit is scarce? You have all seen it:Old stuff worth thousands ofdollars, so ugly that if it was made today, noone would buy it. Imean, people pay hundres of dollars for old Barbie dolls, God helpme. And how about a car from the twenties? Costs more than a newcar, but does it do the job of driving safely, securely andecenomical as well? Certainly not, but still, there are buyers.Collectors value, I think it is called. So, Terry, Yourargumentation about the old Payne versus the new rod is not valid -simply because of the scarcity of the Payne. I guess thats why massfabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne or Garrison, whereas thenew rod is priced according to the working hours, measured in todaysprice, put in to it. Just my 2 cents regards, Carsten Jorgensen --------------11D5B30BB67456BD3B5D19D6 "T" TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: notthe makers unfortunately. If an old fixed-up Payne sells for more thanone of your masterpieces it is because it is worth more! haveto convince the market that you can and then be prepared to produceconsistantlygood rods in the quantity that Payne did. This is where wewould all fallon our arses. Carsten Jørgensen wrote: <snipped> <Iknowthe guys on the list are all making the best rods in the world, I cannot<understand why a refinished Payne with one short tip is worth so muchmore than <ours? Well,what I don´t understand is, why Garrisons rods are the mostexpensiveof them all. I mean, he was an amateur who only made some six hundredrods!Could it simply be the fact, that old is good if it is scarce?You have all seen it:Old stuff worth thousands of dollars, so ugly thatif it was made today, noone would buy it. I mean, people pay hundres ofdollars for old Barbie dolls, God help me. And howabout a car from the twenties? Costs more than a new car, but does it dothe job of driving safely, securely and ecenomical as well? Certainly not,but still, there are buyers. Collectors value, I think it is called.So, Terry, Your argumentation about the old Payne versusthe new rod is not valid - simply because of the scarcity of the Payne.I guess thats why mass fabricated Heddons are cheaper than a Payne orGarrison,whereas the new rod is priced according to the working hours, measured centsregards, CarstenJorgensen --------------11D5B30BB67456BD3B5D19D6-- from irish-george@pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 00:13:10 1999 Subject: Re: Bags for rods Traditional is poplin (a lightweight, fine weave, cotton fabric that goes George Bourke -----Original Message----- Subject: Bags for rods Question for the list, now that I'm actually within site of needing one!What kind of material do you guys suggest using for a bag for cane rods?Very simplistic question I'm sure, but due to the varnish finish, the typeof material may be important. Any input will be appreciated! TIA, Mike from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Thu Sep 16 03:33:00 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF002C.764BBFA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF002C.764BBFA0 Terry wrote: Terry wrote: <The market decides what isthe = the makers unfortunately. I<f an old fixed-up Payne sells = one of your masterpieces it is <because it is worth 1. I don.t make masterpieces. Like= fishpoles.Have allways stated that.2.Exactly my = fewer OLD rods from a "famous" maker, the morethey cost. They are not per definition BETTER = but few of them. <You may think you can make a= <convince the market that youcan = prepared to produce <consistantly good rods in the= Payne did. This is <where we would all fall onour = 1. I think I can make a rod as well as Payne - = sure I do it.This is fishpoles, not magic or art. I try to be a = not anartist. I try to improve something everytime I make= rod. 2. I´m not prepared, or even interested in, = produce a lot ofrods, be they good or rotten. I´m an amateur, = defined assomeone who do it for fun. 3. I think You are just a bit obsessed with the idea = order tomake good rods, one must make many. You seem to = thatthe numbers of rods produced proves something.Well, = don´t seeit that way. All it proves is that someone is = of money and/or time in establishing a =productionline. I think it is fairly reasonable to state, that = consumptionhave increased in quality and decreased in price = century.I agree, the same thing might have lost something in= of indefinable"quality" or style or =whatever. Terry, in spite of Your "obsession" with = in larger quantities, Ithink You are something of a dreamer, and blessed be= that. Andyour remark of low quality rods with high quality, = reel seats isis dead on right. Now, like before, there is good = quality. regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF002C.764BBFA0-- from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Thu Sep 16 03:33:03 1999 (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Re.: Bastard and Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF002F.C43788E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF002F.C43788E0 Terry wrote: Terry wrote: <The market decides what isthe = the makers unfortunately.< If an old fixed-up Payne sells= than one of your masterpieces< it is because it is worth = I make fishpoles, just like You. No= less. Have stated so severaltimes. As to the fixed-up Payne:It = doesn´t mean its a betterrod = <You may think you canmake a = <to convince the market thatyou = be prepared to produce <consistantly good rods in the= Payne did. This is where <we would all fall on our I simply can´t imagine whyI, = else, should not be able to makea rod as good as a Payne. = This rodmaking is NOT art. Of thatI = and I agree. I think You are just a tiny bit "obsessed"= and that this secures an inbuilt quality by itself. = probably misunderstandingYou when I conclude, that Your point is: Old timers = a rods, thereforethey were professionals, therefore their rods are = rods from contemporary'rodmakers, doing few rods per year. Well, surprise: I am an amateur, if that means = rods every year.I am not the least interested in making many rods. = interested in ismaking good rods for fishing, each new rod a bit = I think the rods of today can be of the same quality = rods of yesteryear.Being a paraholic I certainly know that tapers from= ago can´t be bettered today. Whether my rods are = Paynes others may judgeIn my opinion, they are not. regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF002F.C43788E0-- from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Sep 16 03:36:48 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id UAA26678; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:35:45 +1200 Subject: was , Bastard & Ethics : now , it depends on the perspective I was going to stay out of this discussion as I doubted it was going toproduce anything of value to the group , and merely lead to a fewpersonality clashes. However an old friend of mine dropped of a rod to me today . It was hisfather's old rod and my friend remembers going out fishing with him manytimes in the 1940's and 50's as one of the great memories of his life. Hewanted to make sure his fathers old rod was not lost , but preserved insomeway . This rod is the worst built rod I have ever seen. It is seven sided ( yesseven), the sides vary is size with some twice the size of others , and thesmall sides are not much bigger then the glue line gaps. It has roughintermediate bindings every six inches and home made small guides .Theferrules had pulled out, and one of the male ferrules had been replacedwitha bit of brass tube. I guess it was a 1920's rod by the look of the reelseat and handle. I tried it with a line and it cast well. My friend has really fond memoriesof the rod and his father treasured it. My friend did not worry that itlooked a "bit rough", and his father obviously was not concerned about themakers name. This rod has no value, no name, and I will keep it as an example of atotally rough rod with just ablout every possible building fault. It onlyvalue is that by a rodmakers pespective it is a shockingly built rod . Butit casts well and has given some people great pleasure. My friend wanteditpreserved , not for its value , name or method of construction , but for itsmemories. Most rods, regardless of name , or how they are made , give peoplepleasureand provide memories. Some cast better then others, some have finermaterials, but they all serve a purpose. George's rods will give a lot ofpeople pleasure and great memories , as will rods of all the other makers ,past and present. I just think we will always hard pressed to say that any particular rod orrod building technique will produce more pleasure and memories per dollarvalue or per fineness of planning etc. It depends on the perspective of the viewer and therefore there will be asmany views , and as wide a range of views , as there are observers ! Myfriend's treasure was my disaster , and I suspect he was more right thenme. I suggest we should therefore give this topic a rest, accept that there aredifferent views , and move onto more usefull things regards Ian Kearney from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Sep 16 04:07:15 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id SAA08988; Thu, 16Sep 1999 18:07:11+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp(1.3G-GeocitiesJ-3.3) with SMTP id SAA09322; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:07:10+0900 (JST) Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from maxs@geocities.co.jp Thu Sep 16 04:20:57 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id SAA29963; Thu, 16Sep 1999 18:20:54+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp(1.3G-GeocitiesJ-3.3) with SMTP id SAA29759; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:20:53+0900 (JST) Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis and all, Sorry making you confused. I just reached to the panel of rodmakers.I couldn't get to the taper archive itself too. Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod -----Original Message-----$B:9=P?M(B : Maxrodcraft $B08@h(B : HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu $BF|;~(B : 1999$BG/(B9$B7n(B16$BF|(B 18:11$B7oL>(B : RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from knflyrod@home.com Thu Sep 16 07:15:45 1999 (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP Thu, 16 Sep 1999 05:15:42 -0700 Subject: Re: was , Bastard & Ethics : now , it depends on the perspective Amen.................-----Original Message----- ACKLAND Subject: was , Bastard & Ethics : now , it depends on the perspective I was going to stay out of this discussion as I doubted it was going toproduce anything of value to the group , and merely lead to a fewpersonality clashes. However an old friend of mine dropped of a rod to me today . It was hisfather's old rod and my friend remembers going out fishing with himmanytimes in the 1940's and 50's as one of the great memories of his life. Hewanted to make sure his fathers old rod was not lost , but preserved insomeway . This rod is the worst built rod I have ever seen. It is seven sided ( yesseven), the sides vary is size with some twice the size of others , andthesmall sides are not much bigger then the glue line gaps. It has roughintermediate bindings every six inches and home made small guides .Theferrules had pulled out, and one of the male ferrules had been replacedwitha bit of brass tube. I guess it was a 1920's rod by the look of the reelseat and handle. I tried it with a line and it cast well. My friend has really fond memoriesof the rod and his father treasured it. My friend did not worry that itlooked a "bit rough", and his father obviously was not concerned about themakers name. This rod has no value, no name, and I will keep it as an example of atotally rough rod with just ablout every possible building fault. It onlyvalue is that by a rodmakers pespective it is a shockingly built rod . Butit casts well and has given some people great pleasure. My friend wanteditpreserved , not for its value , name or method of construction , but foritsmemories. Most rods, regardless of name , or how they are made , give peoplepleasureand provide memories. Some cast better then others, some have finermaterials, but they all serve a purpose. George's rods will give a lot ofpeople pleasure and great memories , as will rods of all the other makers,past and present. I just think we will always hard pressed to say that any particular rodorrod building technique will produce more pleasure and memories perdollarvalue or per fineness of planning etc. It depends on the perspective of the viewer and therefore there will be asmany views , and as wide a range of views , as there are observers ! Myfriend's treasure was my disaster , and I suspect he was more right thenme. I suggest we should therefore give this topic a rest, accept that there aredifferent views , and move onto more usefull things regards Ian Kearney from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 16 07:32:16 1999 Thu, 16 Sep 1999 08:31:13 -0400 "Lamberson, William R." ,, ,"Rodmakers Listserv" Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF0015.11CE28E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF0015.11CE28E0 Terry,Thanks for the input on these issues. We all have different experiences =and opinions. Oven-treating, it is true, probably does little more than =drive out moisture and "relax" (whatever that term might mean) the =fibers, but heat-straightening indeed does permanently change the =orientation and alignment of the fibers in cane. Cane is not wood, and =its fibers do not behave like those in wood. As to ambient humidity, the old masters knew nothing about controlling =its effects that we do not know today. Beyond our modern finishes, =impregnation is the only way to minimize humidity migration, and all we =can do is choose to impregnate or not. That's all that can be done, if, =indeed, it becomes a relevant issue at all. A rod that takes on =excessive moisture frequently (or over extended periods of time) becomes=vulnerable to taking a set, but I do not believe this is due to the =fibers "wanting" to return to the shape God made them. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: KlingB@health.missouri.edu ; =Lamberson, William R. ; =ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil ; =scan.oest@post.tele.dk ; Rodmakers Listserv = Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:43 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics from my experience heat treating does nothing to the internal fibers =of the cane. It drives out the moisture, gives some colour, It certainly =does not give cane a magic quality and there is no plastifying . Cane = Most of the old makers managed to control the problem of seasonal = Could you honestly build a 14ft rod using the methods of Garrison's =book? It is hard enough making a 7 ft rod look straight. Imagine a 14ft = Terry, Two things: First, I guess I do not believe that a =hand-split rod is more likely to respond to internal stresses and return =to its original bends than a rod built of sawn strips. Proper =heat-straightening (and subsequent oven-tempering) has a powerful ="melting-effect" upon the fibers. Other factors may cause a given rod =to "take a set," but I do not believe rod-sets are caused by the =once-straightened strips trying to twist themselves back again. Other, ="true" woods will indeed do this, but the fibers in bamboo, being nearly =plastic, exclusively longitudinal, and independent of one another, are =not like wood. And secondly, ambient humidity will be taken on and =released by a bamboo fly rod regardless of the finish, and regardless of =whether or not the cane under the grip has been treated. It's gonna = ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF0015.11CE28E0 Terry, out moisture and "relax" (whatever that term might mean) the = but heat-straightening indeed does = permanently change the orientation and alignment of the fibers in = wood. As to ambient = masters knew nothing about controlling its effects that we do not = minimize humidity migration, and all we can do is choose to impregnate = extended periods of time) becomes vulnerable to taking a set, but I do = believe this is due to the fibers "wanting" to return to the = made them. Bill -----Original = KlingB@health.missouri.edu= <KlingB@health.missouri.edu= ralph.shuey@redstone.army.m= <ralph.shuey@redstone.army.m= scan.oest@post.tele.dk = Rodmakers Listserv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:43 PMSubject: Re: = & EthicsBill, from my experience heat = does nothing to the internal fibers of the cane. It drives out the = gives some colour, It certainly does not give cane a magic quality = is no plastifying . Cane behaves just like wood. Most of the old = better than today. Could you honestly build a 14ft rod using the = not believe that a hand-split rod is more likely to respond to = stresses and return to its original bends than a rod built of = factors may cause a given rod to "take a set," but I = believe rod-sets are caused by the once-straightened strips = exclusively longitudinal, and independent of one another, are = a bamboo fly rod regardless of the finish, and regardless of = ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF0015.11CE28E0-- from ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil Thu Sep 16 07:53:53 1999 KlingB@health.missouri.edu "Shuey, Ralph",scan.oest@post.tele.dk,Rodmakers Listserv Subject: RE: Bastard & Ethics A question: Do Impregnated rods have any less incedence of setting?? Ifnot,then the humidity question may be a moot point............. Especially if thereis little or no difference between early (higher grade cane) rods ala Orvisandlater rods, in the set department. Just an engineer's input. Ralph -----Original Message----- scan.oest@post.tele.dk; Rodmakers ListservSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Terry, Two things: First, I guess I do not believe that a hand-split rod is morelikely to respond to internal stresses and return to its original bends thanarod built of sawn strips. Proper heat-straightening (and subsequentoven- tempering) has a powerful "melting-effect" upon the fibers. Otherfactorsmay cause a given rod to "take a set," but I do not believe rod- sets arecaused Other,"true" woods will indeed do this, but the fibers in bamboo, being nearlyplastic, exclusively longitudinal, and independent of one another, are notlikewood. And secondly, ambient humidity will be taken on and released by a bamboofly rodregardless of the finish, and regardless of whether or not the cane underthegrip has been treated. It's gonna happen, period. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- ; 'scan.oest@post.tele.dk'; Rodmakers Listserv > Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Barry,all production rods were sawn. They stayed straighter for a lot longerbecausethere is less stress on a glued up section. If you can be sure that therewillno change in the moisture content of your rod then a heat straightened rodwillstay straight. This is very difficult in North America where there are widefluctuations in humidity. Also, most makers leave their rods "naked" underthegrip which will allow the cane to follow the relative humidity and achance ofthe ferrule pulling off in dry weather if the rod was built in a humidatmosphere.There is, happily, more to rodmaking than multi coats of varnish and aflashyreel seat.Terry "Kling, Barry W." wrote: A very interesting discussion. Seems to me that it would be a lot easiertosaw strips straight than it is to do all the things we do with crookedsplitstrips. It could be done with some very standard shop tools. If the problem is that sawed strips cannot be hand planed (because thebladecatches on the ends of the cut fibers??) then maybe we should begrinding/sanding/milling. If I'm willing to go through all the arcana ofprecision hand planing for a quality rod, I'm sure as hell willing to figureout how to sand or mill them instead. Does anyone know of any actual evidence that splitting is superior? Ofcourse it preserves the full length of more fibers, but nodeless rods havemore partial fibers than one with sawed strips and I don't believe theysuffer. Barry Kling -----Original Message----- ]Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:21 PM Cc: 'ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil';'scan.oest@post.tele.dk' ; RodmakersListservSubject: Re: Bastard & Ethics Bill,all these builders used production methods and made rods inquantities that wecan only dream about. They were never cheap rods andrequired a months salary topurchase one. Modern rods built one at a time should beinfinitely superior tothese, but are they?It is hardly fair to stand a 50 year old rod next to a brandnew contemporaryrod.Most of the old makers did not split their culms but sawedthem which I thinkhad an effect on the ability of a rod to stay straight. Canehas a memory andsplit and straightened strips tend to resume their formerposition if themoisture content changes.Hand planers cannot saw their strips because a plane willonly tear out. Try it! Terry"Lamberson, William R." wrote: In examining a number of older, high quality rods from F.E. Thomas,Leonard, Orvis and other makers, I have been veryimpressed with theirstraightness, and how that characteristic has beenretained for many years.In that respect I think they are superior to many, but notall rods that arebeing made today. Why might that be true? One majorrodmaker, now retired,agrees, and suggests the difference is likely due toearlier qualityrodmakers rejecting inferior culms and sections at a highrate. Bamboo waspurchased in high volume and labor was cheap so it waseconomically feasibleto sort cane and reject sections up until the time thatcomponents wereadded. That may be the reason that many glued-up sectionsare sometimesavailable from companies that have gone out of business. I suspect that most of us have a stock of cane(admittedly, high averagequality) that amounts to a few tens of culms and we arereluctant to evenreject even the poorer half, myself certainly included.Many of us may nothave seen enough cane to even be capable of doing so. Forsome thesituation may be improved by purchasing from dealers thatgrade cane priorto sale. Others may have been fortunate to be able topurchase good cane from commercial builders that had a large stock on hand,such as WaltonPowell. Once we have put the effort into splitting, straighteningplaning andgluing, it is even less likely that we are willing todiscard a proportionof the sections that are inferior. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- ]Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 8:13 AM ; Rodmakers ListservSubject: RE: Bastard & Ethics Given that the same/or better grade of cane is availabletoday then thecurrent makers should be able to fabricate a supperiorproduct based on thesimple fact that that all the other materials and toolsare better. Much ofthe "black magic" from the old days is now technology,i.e. the guys knowexactly why they are doing things, and what causes it tohappen. Ralph Shuey ex-Manufacturing Engineering Chief -----Original Message----- ]Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:07 AM Subject: Re.: Bastard & Ethics Terry Salmon rods in the 12 - 15 feet size are indeed madetoday. I've castseveral,made by rodmakers/friends, members of the same fishingclub as myself.Am going to make one myself this coming winter, a 12'#8-9and dont seewhyit should be harder than any other rod. I have,obviously, asked thosewha have already done such a rod and been told to procedeas with anyother flyrod. regards, Carsten Jorgensen from ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil Thu Sep 16 08:03:10 1999 1.redstone.army.mil tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au, TERENCE ACKLAND Subject: RE: was , Bastard & Ethics : now , it depends on the perspective Thank you Ian; Possibly a portion of this issue is one of copious consumption. In the"Good Old Days" one would be damn lucky to own 2 or 3 rods. Today a lot offolks own many more times that number and we can tell everybody aboutin thetwinkling of an electron. Even twenty years ago I'd probably think twiceaboutthe postage to NZ rather that just popping off a note, or a fax (thank youverymuch). Ralph -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:36 AM Cc: Rod MakersSubject: was , Bastard & Ethics : now , it depends onthe perspective I was going to stay out of this discussion as I doubted it wasgoing toproduce anything of value to the group , and merely lead to afewpersonality clashes. However an old friend of mine dropped of a rod to me today . Itwas hisfather's old rod and my friend remembers going out fishing withhim manytimes in the 1940's and 50's as one of the great memories of hislife. Hewanted to make sure his fathers old rod was not lost , butpreserved in someway . This rod is the worst built rod I have ever seen. It is sevensided ( yesseven), the sides vary is size with some twice the size ofothers , and thesmall sides are not much bigger then the glue line gaps. It hasroughintermediate bindings every six inches and home made smallguides .Theferrules had pulled out, and one of the male ferrules had beenreplaced witha bit of brass tube. I guess it was a 1920's rod by the look ofthe reelseat and handle. I tried it with a line and it cast well. My friend has reallyfond memoriesof the rod and his father treasured it. My friend did not worrythat itlooked a "bit rough", and his father obviously was not concernedabout themakers name. This rod has no value, no name, and I will keep it as an exampleof atotally rough rod with just ablout every possible buildingfault. It onlyvalue is that by a rodmakers pespective it is a shockingly builtrod . Butit casts well and has given some people great pleasure. Myfriend wanted itpreserved , not for its value , name or method of construction ,but for itsmemories. Most rods, regardless of name , or how they are made , givepeople pleasureand provide memories. Some cast better then others, some havefinermaterials, but they all serve a purpose. George's rods willgive a lot ofpeople pleasure and great memories , as will rods of all theother makers ,past and present. I just think we will always hard pressed to say that anyparticular rod orrod building technique will produce more pleasure and memoriesper dollarvalue or per fineness of planning etc. It depends on the perspective of the viewer and therefore therewill be asmany views , and as wide a range of views , as there areobservers ! Myfriend's treasure was my disaster , and I suspect he was moreright then me. I suggest we should therefore give this topic a rest, acceptthat there aredifferent views , and move onto more usefull things regards Ian Kearney from jackdale@uswest.net Thu Sep 16 08:22:15 1999 (209.180.254.227) pmgoodwin@earthlink.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics 42FF2D0B2FC68DDFE43F5852" --------------42FF2D0B2FC68DDFE43F5852 Terry,It's always fun to correspond with an instinctive counter-puncher. Ofcourse, you're correct about the "cheap" rods being a matter of theindifferent quality of the add-on aesthetics. The cane, the cane-work,and the taper are all excellent. Now, as to your last point about"Glamrod crap," you've got the classicrough-gruff-honest-working-craftsman pose down pat, but in spite ofthat, as usual, you make a good point. The worth (perception of value)of an older "glamrod" has something, but not everything, to do withperformance. I acquired them and fish them because it pleases me to doso. They're damn fine rods and, yes, there's a lot of style in fishinga Payne or a Leonard or a Granger, the same style that some folks willperceive after you've died and turned to dust in fishing a great oldTerry Ackland.Cordially,Jack Dale,The Poseur TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: Jack,looking over these "cheap" rods, how was the cane work? I bet the theonly difference was in the quality of the cork, reel seat and generalfinish? After all cane is cane and I am sure that Heddon did not makea bad taper because the rod was "cheap", even then we can trainthemselves to cast with anything. I know a guy that can put out awhole DT line on a broomstick! (the loop was not too tight, if I hadthe dimensions of the broom the computer guys could run it throughHEXROD!)T&T started all this Glamrod crap which has nothing to do withperformance, which for a flyrod should be everything. Unless of courseyou are an equipment poseur.Terry Jack Dale wrote: Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you doeither. I just wanted to hear the arguments you both might make,especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal judgement and taste. I just went back and looked at myreply to Terry to see if it went out to the List as well as to Terryand it had not. Therefore, here it is: You make a good point. I've got rods made in the past by some ofthe great builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the"cheap" production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't choose"the best" among them if you held a gun to my head. However, eachone turned out to beworth exactly what I paid for it, by definition. Some of the"cheap" production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheapwhen I acquired them, but I can'tthink of one that I'd willingly part with. The new rods, however,cost me FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to paytheir cost. I guess Worth =Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you'vegot in your pocket at the time. Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to therod maker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod tosomeone you like and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have tofish. Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is enteringinto the "line of succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who hasalso made a rod you just have to fish. On the other hand, aperson's got to be a sucker forsomething and I can think of worse vices. Some folks are justbigger suckers than others and always have been. Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'msophisticated enough in my ability to judge the objective quality ofany given rod to be able to agree or disagree with your lastcomparative statement. However, old or new, I do know junk fromgems when I see them or cast them. Thanks for responding to myquestion.Cordially,Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Jack, Well, holy cow! Are Terry and I supposed to square off andcome out fighting, or something? But, here's what I believe. Weamateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the unprecedentedadvantages of: free time for hand-building and for any amount ofexperimentation superior glues superior and plentifulcomponents superior varnishes (finishes) more finely "tuned"planing forms, binders, bevelers and/or mills enabling us toobtain more precise tolerances an open forum (thanks to ThePlaning Form, regional gatherings, and this Listserve) forthe free exchange of ideas on design, materials and buildingtechniques. This last advantage is the greatest of all in that, wemakers are willing and able, for the first time in history, tocompare notes, to cast one another's rods, and thereby to continue"raising the ante" in craftsmanship, design, as well asaesthetics. There have never before been so many rod-makers as atpresent, and we have all been encouraging one another, for adecade, in our mutual pursuit to build better rods. As to evidenceor facts, I would suggest you gather that for yourself. Go to someof the rod-makers' gatherings, or go to some of the majorfly-fishing shows and just havea look at some of the stuff that'sout there. Sure, there are a lot of contemporary makers who aremaking junk (even nice looking junk), but we are concerned withexcellence, and the truly excellent rods of yesteryear were not asgood as the truly excellent rods of today. Just my opinion...cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Jack Dale Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net ;rafick@fwi.com ; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like tohear your arguments on both sides. Bill, can you backthis statement up with facts? Terry, how would youcounter Biull's argument and what facts would you offerin response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry,Everyone is entitled to his opinion, of course,but that does not mean that all opinions are valid. Inthis case, you appear clearly to be mistaken. Indeed,the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers,Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, September 12, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard & Maker's EthicsTapersare not the only criteria of a cane rod.There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ftlight salmon rods that are asstraight as when thaey were built 80 yearsago.I do not think that any contemporary rodbuilder could make a 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ftrod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today,sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just acrossthe flats in several spotson each section to get an idea of theaccuracy of their process, it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resembleno others, is that even possible?there are only so many numbers available no.of sections etc. I think that if onewere to look hard enough you wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new "design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------42FF2D0B2FC68DDFE43F5852 Terry,It's always fun to correspond with an instinctive counter- Of course, you're correct about the "cheap" rods being a matter of the work, "Glamrod crap," you've got the classic rough-gruff-honest-working- craftsman The worth (perception of value) of an older "glamrod" has something, but yes, there's a lot of style in fishing a Payne or a Leonard or a Granger,the same style that some folks will perceive after you've died and turnedto dust in fishing a great old Terry Ackland.Cordially,Jack Dale,The Poseur TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: looking over these "cheap" rods, how was the cane work? I bet the theonly difference was in the quality of the cork, reel seat and general After all cane is cane and I am sure that Heddon did not make a bad taperbecause the rod was "cheap", even then we can train themselves to castwith anything. I know a guy that can put out a whole DT line on abroomstick!(the loop was not too tight, if I had the dimensions of the broom thecomputerguys could run it through HEXROD!)T&T started all this Glamrod crap which has nothing to do withperformance, which for a flyrod should be everything. Unless of courseyou are an equipment poseur.Terry Jack Dale wrote:Bill,Naw, I don't care to take Terry on myself and I don't figure you do especially because my own opinion is that it comes down a matter ofpersonal Terry Therefore, here it is: of the great builders, working man's rods manufactured by some of the"cheap"production houses,and a few made by rod builders working today and I couldn't eachone turned out to be "cheap" production rods I own were nothing that even resembled cheapwhenI acquired them, but I can't however,cost me FAR more than any of the older ones and I was glad to pay their Materials + Labor + Perception of Value modified by how much you'vegot in your pocket at the time. Part of the perception of value in a new rod is a connection to therod maker, somebody you've actually met or who has sold a rod to someoneyou like and admirewho likes the rod, someone who makes a rod that you just have to Part of the perception of value in an "old" rod is entering into the "lineof succession" to aname that has become a part of the history of the sport, and who has got to be a sucker for bigger suckers than others and always have been. Bill, you also make some good points, but I don't think I'm sophisticatedenough in my ability to judge the objective quality of any given rod to However, old or new, I do know junk from gems when I see them or cast Thanks for responding to my question.Cordially,Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terryand I supposed to square off and come out fighting, orsomething?But, here's what I We amateurs today have enjoyed, for nearly a decade, the unprecedented bevelers and/or mills enabling us to The Planing Form, regional gatherings, and this techniques.This last advantage is thegreatest of all in that, we makers are willing and able, for the firsttime in history, to compare notes, to cast one another's rods, and therebyto continue "raising the ante" in craftsmanship, design, as well as There have never before been so manyrod-makers as at present, and we have all been encouraging one another, rods.As to evidence or facts, I makers'gatherings, or go to some of the major fly-fishing shows and just havealook at someof makers who are making junk (even nice looking junk), but we areconcernedwith excellence, and the truly excellentrods of yesteryear were not as good as the truly excellent rods oftoday.Just myopinion...cheers,Bill--- --OriginalMessage-----From: Jack Dale <jackdale@uswest.net> <HARMS1@prodigy.net>Cc: hexagon@odyssee.net<hexagon@odyssee.net>; rafick@fwi.com<rafick@fwi.com>; pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Wednesday,September15, 1999 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsGuys,I am prepared to be educated and therefore would like to hear your factswould you offer in response?Jack Dale WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: is entitled to his opinion, of course, but that does not mean that all Indeed, the best rods, BY FAR, are being built today.cheers,Bill----- OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <rafick@fwi.com>Cc: pmgoodwin@earthlink.net<pmgoodwin@earthlink.net>;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Sunday, September12,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Bastard &Maker's EthicsTapers are not the only criteria of a canerod. There are are processes thatalso "make" a rod . I have a couple of 14 ft light salmon rods thatare asstraight as when thaey were built 80 years ago. 14 ft rodbecause most could not not constuct an 8 ft rod that looks straight.The best rods are not being built today, sorry.Terry. "R.A.Fick" wrote: PMG No, I didn't measure the taper, just across the flats in severalspotson each section to get an idea of the accuracy of their process,it 's nobetter than many other production rods.As for designing new tapers that resemble no others, is that evenpossible?there are only so many numbers available for a given line wt. rodlength,no.of sections etc. I think that if one were to look hard enoughyou wouldfind tapers that resemble any " new " design.Maybe fifty years ago, not today. Rick R.A.Fick Bamboo Rod Co.The best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods/ --------------42FF2D0B2FC68DDFE43F5852-- from gholland@navsys.com Thu Sep 16 09:18:33 1999 HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Max, It isn't the taper page you can't get into.....it is the individual tapersthemselves. Give it a try; I'm curious to see if anyone can get it becauseI certainly can't either. Greg -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 16 09:24:10 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id JAA09313 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id JAA21710 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 Subject: Re: Roughing form 2 Noah, You will be pleased at how much easier this becomes after a few rods. If I have an angle that is off (lopsided) I place the strip in the form with the too-sharp ( There has GOT to be a better way to plane a 30 deg angle into bamboo.I keep having to adjust the plane from one extream to the other tipwise to get remotely a 30 deg angle. Sometimes when it is fullyadjusted and I have it leaning as far as possible I still end up withan off angle. So what are some other ways to do this? from saweiss@flash.net Thu Sep 16 09:24:58 1999 Subject: Re: Rodmakers' Taper archive Max,I can get into the web site but I cannot get any more than that. I can't getthe taper pages.Steve Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from dati@selway.umt.edu Thu Sep 16 09:30:27 1999 HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive I can't get into the individual tapers either. I haven't been able to Max, It isn't the taper page you can't get into.....it is the individual tapersthemselves. Give it a try; I'm curious to see if anyone can get it becauseI certainly can't either. Greg -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 3:07 AM Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 16 09:46:13 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id JAA01329 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id JAA01662 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 Subject: Re: Bastard & Maker's Ethics Terry may or maynot be right about the lost secrets of the professionalrodmakers but one thing that is certainly lost is the chance for someone to apprentice or work in a full-time production shop. Youwould get more experience in a year than I'll get in 30 years foolingaround in my basement. The chance to learn from the books and ThePlaning Form and the Internet and rodmakers gatherings is great butits a whole different thing.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote: There are secrets that the professional rodmakers practiced that havenotsurfaced on this list or are in the Garrison or other knock off books.The last gathering I attended bristled with contemporary rods and noneof themwas straight. The one exception was a used Bob Summers rod and he canhardly beclassed as a contemporary. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Sep 16 11:21:56 1999 JAA07620 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: strips Just my 2 cents on the straight strip thing. I have a few strips left fromsomepre-embargo tonkin cane that I got from D. Holbrook from a class I took inthe 60's thatwere alcohol lamp straightened and planed. These strips have been kept ina open endedPVC tube for just about 30 years and kept in the corner of my den(rodbuilding room). Idug them out last night and by god they are as straight today as they werewhen I putthem in the pipe. from my days as a luthier I know that wood or cellulosehas memory andwill try to return to it's original shape for ever but I think because werelax the bondwith heat between the power fibers that bamboo will not try to return. Ithink that,like wood, if it gets wet that some of the fibers will react differentlythan other andit will try to bend. I'm no expert but these are just some things that I haveobserved. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Sep 16 11:42:19 1999 "'rodmakers'" Subject: Re: strips I plane my strips down to about .015" oversize (more for the butt strips),then bind them together and heat treat. The strips come out very straight,but as soon as you start planing them to final size they start to take on acurve, ie , the planing releases the stress in the bamboo that heattreating induced, not unlike what happens when you machine cold rolledsteel. I've measured sample bamboo strips before and after heat treatingin my kitchen oven and found that the bamboo shrinks as much as 10%, iesomething stressfull is happening to the cane!!!! I've noticed also that whenever I have "kinks" in the rod blank aftergluing and curing, the "kinks" are always on or near a node.----------From: Coffey, Patrick W Subject: stripsDate: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:20 PM Just my 2 cents on the straight strip thing. I have a few strips left from some pre-embargo tonkin cane that I got from D. Holbrook from aclassI took in the 60's that were alcohol lamp straightened and planed. Thesestrips have been kept in a open ended PVC tube for just about 30 years andkept in the corner of my den (rodbuilding room). I dug them out last nightand by god they are as straight today as they were when I put them in thepipe. from my days as a luthier I know that wood or cellulose has memoryand will try to return to it's original shape for ever but I think becausewe relax the bond with heat between the power fibers that bamboo willnottry to return. I think that, like wood, if it gets wet that some of thefibers will react differently than other and it will try to bend. I'm noexpert but these are just some things that I have observed. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 16 11:49:58 1999 9:59:24 PDT Subject: RE: D. Holbrook (was strips) Patrick, Is D. Holbrook Dawn Holbrook. My gunsmith brought out a Dawn Holbrook rod he bought new in the 50's from a sporting goods store in the Salem, Oregon area. It is a 9' two piece 5 wt. Just curious about the history of Dawn Holbrook. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from weehughie@home.com Thu Sep 16 11:51:05 1999 (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with SMTP 0700 Subject: Fly Swap A little off the list's topic, but I am hosting an Internet fly swap, andthought some here on the list might want to take part inbetween buildingrods and thinking about Gerhke. :) There is a link to the information from the main page athttp://flyfishing.about.com/ As well, I Gerhke gave me an interview to discuss his cane project. If youare interested, you can take a look at that as well. It would be great ifsome of you that have more expertise and/or experience with Gerhke andhisnew rods would post to the bulletin board at the site in the discussionthatis going on about whether you would buy a bastard rod. Thanks, Ian Scott from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Sep 16 12:02:39 1999 KAA26672; (5.5.2448.0) "'mcdowellc@lanecc.edu'" Subject: RE: D. Holbrook (was strips) Yes this is the same Holbrook. He was a professional rod maker that livedin Seattle andmade rods for about 30 some years. I have his instruction book loaded in afile and ifanybody is interested email me and I will send it. It's pretty interestingreading andhas pages of tapers for steelhead and salmon rods that he made for thewaters aroundhere. He belonged to the the flyfishing local club up here and for $25.00 hesuppliedthe cane from his stash, wood planing form and hands on instruction in hisshop and youcame away with a finished rod. There is a lot of guys in the "GREAT" NWthat learned rodmaking from him. He was the originator of the Milward four head binderonly his was hugein comparison to what we have now. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL[SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 9:55 AM Subject: RE: D. Holbrook (was strips) Patrick, Is D. Holbrook Dawn Holbrook. My gunsmith brought out a Dawn Holbrook rod he bought new in the 50's from a sporting goods store in the Salem, Oregon area. It is a 9' two piece 5 wt. Just curious about the history of Dawn Holbrook. Thanks. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Sep 16 12:52:09 1999 HAA01136; (5.5.2448.0) "'maxs@geocities.co.jp'" Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive tried this web location just now and get the taper archive but when tryingto open aparticular makers taper archive I get crosswind error message and notapers. I have beenhaving this problem for over a week now and it seems like I'm not the onlyone. Is theresomething we are doing wrong or is there something wrong with the site? Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Maxrodcraft[SMTP:maxs@geocities.co.jp] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 2:06 AM Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from joseus@lacapitalnet.com.ar Thu Sep 16 13:02:36 1999 0300 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?mi_primer_ca=F1a.?= boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF0030.3CA15720" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF0030.3CA15720 1: Amigos de la lista. yo he terminado la seccion de punta de mi primer =ca=F1a. ya esta encolada. hace 2 dias esta colgada con un peso abajo. yo =he utilizado el metodo nodeles. =BF como debo lijar el enamel, para =aplicarle el barniz ?. yo ahora comenzare a construir la seccion de =abajo. La ca=F1a es una Garriso 209 7 ft 6 in trout, 13/64 ferrule # =4,5 tip top. yo aceptare sugerencias para poder terminar mi primer =ca=F1a. yo no he utilizado bambo de tonquin. En argentina es muy dificil =de conseguir. mas adelante yo comprare bambu en EEUU. Estimados amigos, =les saludo afectuosamente. yo escribo mediante traductor de mi PC. pido =disculpas por ello. Alberto.1: Friends of the list. I have finished the section of tip of my first =cane. already this glued. 2 days ago this hung below with a weight. I =have used the method nodeles. as I should sand the enamel, to apply him =the varnish? . I now will begin to build the section of below. The cane =is a Garriso 209 7 ft 6 in trout, 13/64 ferrule #4,5 tip top. I will =accept suggestions to be able to finish my first cane. I have not used =tonquin bambo. In Argentinean it is very difficult of getting. but I =advance I will buy bamboo in USA. Dear friends, I greet them =affectionately. I write by means of translator of my PC. I apologize for = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF0030.3CA15720 1: Amigos de la lista. yo he terminado= de punta de mi primer ca=F1a. ya esta encolada. hace 2 dias esta colgada = peso abajo. yo he utilizado el metodo nodeles. =BF como debo lijar el = ferrule # 4,5 tip top. yo aceptare sugerencias para poder terminar mi = ca=F1a. yo no he utilizado bambo de tonquin. En argentina es muy dificil = conseguir. mas adelante yo comprare bambu en EEUU. Estimados amigos , = afectuosamente. yo escribo mediante traductor de mi PC. pido disculpas = Alberto.1: Friends of the list. I have finished the section of tip = first cane. already this glued. 2 days ago this hung below with a = used the method nodeles. as I should sand the enamel, to apply him the = . I now will begin to build the section of below. The cane is a Garriso = 6 in trout, 13/64 ferrule #4,5 tip top. I will accept suggestions to be = finish my first cane. I have not used tonquin bambo. In Argentinean it = difficult of getting. but I advance I will buy bamboo in USA. Dear = greet them affectionately. I write by means of translator of my PC. I = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF0030.3CA15720-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Sep 16 13:14:47 1999 Subject: Re: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Has anyone been in contact with Jerry Foster to see what is wrong here?Bret from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Sep 16 13:31:54 1999 Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive 1999) at 09/16/9901:26:12 PM I sent him an e-mail when I discovered the problem a week or two ago. Ihaven't heard back.-Ed Grhghlndr@aol.com owner-rodmakers@wugate maxs@geocities.co.jp,.wustl.edu HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.educc:09/16/99 01:13 PM Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taperarchive Please respond toGrhghlndr Has anyone been in contact with Jerry Foster to see what is wrong here?Bret from saweiss@flash.net Thu Sep 16 13:50:25 1999 Subject: Re: Rodmakers' Taper archive yes,Steve Has anyone been in contact with Jerry Foster to see what is wrong here?Bret from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 16 13:52:25 1999 with ESMTP id ;Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:51:49 +0000 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Rodmakers' Taper archive Bret, I sent him a message last night. Dennis Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: Has anyone been in contact with Jerry Foster to see what is wrong here?Bret -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 16 14:57:07 1999 with ESMTP id ;Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:56:34 +0000 Subject: Re: strips So... I'm not the only one who has a "plush workshop"! I do myrodmaking in the comfort of my living room. My coffee table makes agreat workbench! I have the added benefit of a nice stereo to providemusic to work by. Planing to Prokofiev! Life is good... Dennis Coffey, Patrick W wrote: Just my 2 cents on the straight strip thing. I have a few strips left fromsomepre-embargo tonkin cane that I got from D. Holbrook from a class I took inthe 60's thatwere alcohol lamp straightened and planed. These strips have been kept ina open endedPVC tube for just about 30 years and kept in the corner of my den(rodbuilding room). Idug them out last night and by god they are as straight today as they werewhen I putthem in the pipe. from my days as a luthier I know that wood or cellulosehas memory andwill try to return to it's original shape for ever but I think because werelax the bondwith heat between the power fibers that bamboo will not try to return. Ithink that,like wood, if it gets wet that some of the fibers will react differentlythan other andit will try to bend. I'm no expert but these are just some things that I haveobserved. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from sniderja@email.uc.edu Thu Sep 16 15:38:31 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,"'maxs@geocities.co.jp'" Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive I, too, have suffered this problem of access to the taper archive, over thepast few days and also just a few minutes ago. I get sent to the Crosswindwhatever.J. Snider. At 07:00 AM 9/16/1999 -0700, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:tried this web location just now and get the taper archive but whentrying to open a particular makers taper archive I get crosswind error messageand no tapers. I have been having this problem for over a week now and itseems like I'm not the only one. Is there something we are doing wrong or isthere something wrong with the site? Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Maxrodcraft[SMTP:maxs@geocities.co.jp] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 2:06 AM Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Dennis, Are you trying this URL for taper archive? I tried it now and have noproblem to get in.http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/tapers.html Max Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod All, I have noticed it's now impossible to get to the taper archive on theRodmakers' page. I also know I'm not the first to experience this. Hasanyone heard any new developments on this? Dennis from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 16 16:19:41 1999 14:29:12 PDT Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Many of you already know this, but for those who might not, if you hit the "Software" Icon from the Rodmakers website, and then click on "Thanks to Frank Stetzer", and then "Classic Rod Tapers" there is a pretty good list of classic tapers. Some of the same ones from the taper archive plussome contributed by this list. I remember someone was looking for the Para 15 taper and it is listed here. This might prevent the DT's until the site is fixed. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from abeged@townsqr.com Thu Sep 16 16:31:42 1999 www1.townsqr.com(Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.5) with SMTP idfor;Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:35:04 -0500 Subject: Fw: Puzzling Rod Here is a FWD of my correspondence with Mr. Summers. Thanks to HarryBoyd,and esp. RMargiotta for the information. Gary ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: Bob Summers Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:37 AM Dear Mr. Plowick, Looks like you have a para, 16. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Re: Puzzling RodDate: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:45 PM Dear Mr. Summers, I don't own a micrometer, but I borrowed a calipers today and these arethemeasurements I got, measuring back from the tip approximately everysixinches. I hope these make some sense and you can help me to identifymyrod. Tip #1: (.75)(1.04)(1.37)(1.50)(1.71)(2.01)(2.12)(2.31)(2.35)~ferrule~(2.41)(2.68)(2 .88)(2.95(3.06)(3.42)(3.55) Tip#2: (.80)(1.01)(1.33)(1.55)(1.81)(2.00)(2.10)(2.25)(2.35)~ferrule~ The length of the entire rod is, indeed, 8 1/2 feet. The cork handlemeasures 8 13/16" from the cap to the start of the visible bamboo. The marking on the rod is,Line 1: 8 1/2' 4.59 oz. HCH - HCFLine 2: Fer 15/64 tip top 5/64 Bamboo wt. 3.44 oz. I hope these measurements make sense, and thank you again for yourkindassistance in helping me. Sincerely,Gary Plowick ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Summers Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:10 PMSubject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: rsummers@gtii.com Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:01 PM Dear Gary, The writing is Paul H. Young's. The first serial number were about1955.As far as the light color heat treat. We used some of these blanks upintothe 1960"s there are probably still some of these in the shop. Withthesuper z ferrule I would guess this rod was built about 1952. Yourphotolooks like the length is 8 1/2'?? If so this may be a one and only oroneof a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a early parabolic 16 that hadtheearly stepped ferrule and was referruled with the super z. If I haddimension taken ever 6 inches I could tell more. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Puzzling RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:02 AM Dear Mr. Summers, Could you please help me to identify the rod in the attached photos?Itisan unnamed and unnumbered Paul H. Young piece. Is the fine work ontheguides and the handwriting yours? Unfortunately I don't have the original tube, only the satin bag. Thelight cane and no name/number seems to indicate pre-1946, but theSuperZferrules and beautiful work on the guides seems to indicate post-1950. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely,Gary Plowick from dellc@nextdim.com Thu Sep 16 16:36:26 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A00140110100; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:24:17 PST Subject: Re: Roughing form 2 Noah, it is very important to have no twists in the strip so that it willstay in the form at the right attitude thru-out the form.Dell in digest land.Dell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the Quilterhttp://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e- mail dellc@nextdim.comflyfisher@nextdim.com----- Original Message ----- Subject: Roughing form 2 There has GOT to be a better way to plane a 30 deg angle into bamboo.I keep having to adjust the plane from one extream to the other tipwise to get remotely a 30 deg angle. Sometimes when it is fullyadjusted and I have it leaning as far as possible I still end up withan off angle. So what are some other ways to do this? from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Thu Sep 16 17:09:09 1999 with ESMTP id ;Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:08:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Rodmakers' Taper archive Thanx, Chris! Dennis CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Many of you already know this, but for those who might not, if you hitthe"Software" Icon from the Rodmakers website, and then click on "ThankstoFrank Stetzer", and then "Classic Rod Tapers" there is a pretty good listof classic tapers. Some of the same ones from the taper archive plussomecontributed by this list. I remember someone was looking for the Para15taper and it is listed here. This might prevent the DT's until the siteis fixed. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from bokstrom@axionet.com Thu Sep 16 20:52:55 1999 Subject: Re: D. Holbrook's Binder ----------From: Coffey, Patrick W He (Dawn Holbrook) was the originator of the Milward four head binderonlyhis was huge in comparison to what we have now. Several years ago in Marysville, Tony Maslan, E.C. Powell's son-in-law,told me how E.C. and his blacksmith/machinist friend sat on a curb anddrewup the plans for a four string binder in the dust. This may have happenedaround 1919 when E.C. began commercial building so it is possible that hisbinder pre- dates Holbrook's. Does anyone on the list have more informationon the relevant dates so we can find out who actually was first?I've seen E.C.'s and Max Yerxa's binders, each even larger and heavier thanHolbrook's. John Bokstrom from jik@foxinternet.net Thu Sep 16 23:28:51 1999 Subject: Fly Swap Ian Scott writes:A little off the list's topic, but I am hosting an Internet fly swap, andthought some here on the list might want to take part inbetweenbuildingrods and thinking about Gerhke. :) There is a link to the information from the main page athttp://flyfishing.about.com/ As well, I Gerhke gave me an interview to discuss his cane project. Ifyouare interested, you can take a look at that as well. It would be great ifsome of you that have more expertise and/or experience with Gerhke andhisnew rods would post to the bulletin board at the site in the discussionthatis going on about whether you would buy a bastard rod. Thanks, Ian Scott There is a website and email list devoted to fly swaps...you should be able to find numerouse opertunities here and having done it...its very fun. www.virtualflybox.com from jik@foxinternet.net Thu Sep 16 23:30:33 1999 Subject: RE: Rodmakers' Taper archive Grhghlndr@aol.com writes:Has anyone been in contact with Jerry Foster to see what is wronghere?Bret I seem to have been the first to notice this about a week ago and he the archive. He never said what the problem is though, but it isdefinately down. All the taper files have been removed from the host site. from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Fri Sep 17 08:34:56 1999 GAA10078 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: holbrook to everybody I sent the Holbrook file to, if you have trouble reading it (40pages) itis because it is a scanned file in acrobat which has a free acrobat read ontheinternet. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 from TSmithwick@aol.com Fri Sep 17 10:38:44 1999 Subject: Re: holbrook rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Pat - Thanks for the file, It looks like an interesting addition to the library. Has anyone cast any of the tapers? version of Adobe Acrobat Reader. It is available at Adobe.com. from KlingB@health.missouri.edu Fri Sep 17 10:56:28 1999 Patrick.Coffey@pss.boeing.com,owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: holbrook Barry Kling -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:37 AM owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: holbrook Pat - Thanks for the file, It looks like an interestingaddition to the library. Has anyone cast any of the tapers? appropiate version of Adobe Acrobat Reader. It is available at Adobe.com. from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 17 11:01:33 1999 10:02:46 -0500 ix10.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Western Rod Gathering I haven't heard much on the Western Rodmakers Gathering scheduled forthe last weekend in October in Bishop, CA. How many are planning onattending and what are people bring to show etc.? I am planning onattending and am bringing JW's beveler and fluting jig for making hollowrods. Anyone know how Hot Creek, the Owens, and East Walker are fishingand what we can expect? I look forward to seeing everyone. Jeremy Gray from dellc@nextdim.com Fri Sep 17 15:21:11 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AFBB30B5008A; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:08:27 PST , Subject: Re: holbrook I have made and fished several of Dawn's tapers. My first insruction came from Ring Torgeson who was taught by Dawn. Most of his tapers are on theheavy side and primarily designed for steelhead and salmon.Dell in digest land.Dell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the Quilterhttp://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail dellc@nextdim.comflyfisher@nextdim.com----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: holbrook Pat - Thanks for the file, It looks like an interesting addition to thelibrary. Has anyone cast any of the tapers? versionof Adobe Acrobat Reader. It is available at Adobe.com. from darrelll@earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 15:49:53 1999 Subject: Re: "Windsor" bamboo flyrodDate: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 04:40:19 - 0700 You might want to post it on the "Name That Rod Forum"www.bamboorods.homepage.com You can post photos on the board andperhapssomeone can help you identify it... Perhaps your rod says Winchester and the decal is damaged? It sounds likeaWinchester decal if it is missing the last letters? Darrell Lee -----Original Message----- Subject: "Windsor" bamboo flyrod Subject: "Windsor" bamboo flyrod Can you help me with maker, approx. date, correct guides and wrapcolors?It prob. won't cast or fish, but I'd like to refinish to wall-hanger. I'dlike to put wraps and guides back to original. Looks Montague but noMontague decal. Does have a 7/8" long rectangular gold decal on #1 flatoutlined in black with black written "Windsor". Butt is 36". Mid down 13/4" (only 2 guides), tip shorter than butt by 7 3/4" and likely fromanother rod. Bag Forest Green w/ multi-colored designs. 6" mild Wellsgrip, 4" reelseat, NPB, 1" wide knurled locking band, sliding band hasreelfoot hood and is connected to locking band (post WWIIMontagueTitelock?). Agate stripping guide, someone has put both EnglishandAmerican guides on mid and tip. Ferrules are plated brass. Wraps greentipped gold with green/gold signature wraps and green/missingintermediates( colors may change after removal). Any help appreciated.Ed from darrelll@earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 17:11:43 1999 Subject: Re: Western Rod Gathering Howdy, I'm on the east coast right now, but will be attending the GW gathering.Just toured the T&T factory. Great shop! They have the old Montague Millandbeveler. Met the rod maker there... will give a detailed report if anyone isinterested... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Western Rod Gathering I haven't heard much on the Western Rodmakers Gathering scheduled forthe last weekend in October in Bishop, CA. How many are planning onattending and what are people bring to show etc.? I am planning onattending and am bringing JW's beveler and fluting jig for making hollowrods. Anyone know how Hot Creek, the Owens, and East Walker are fishingand what we can expect? I look forward to seeing everyone. Jeremy Gray from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Sep 17 17:41:44 1999 Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:41:21 -0400 , "Shuey, Ralph" ,,"Rodmakers Listserv" Subject: Re: Bastard & Ethics boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF013B.D7E26560" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF013B.D7E26560 Ralph, A good question. But I don't know that anyone really has an answer to =it. To make a valid comparison, one would need a representative =sampling (what would that be?) of both impregnated and unimpregnated =rods. And all the rods from both groups would need to have been =subjected to identical moisture conditions over their lifetimes. Just =possibly, someone may be in such a position to do the comparison, but =then, that person would also need to know that the rods in the two =groups used the same glues and varnishes, that the culms used in =building were identical, that the same care in initial =heat-straightening had been taken, and that all rods had been fished = Otherwise, we can just go by what we would surmise--that impregnated = be less subject to moisture infiltration, and further, that this factor ="should" matter somewhat. Now, whether or not it actually does matter, =we still don't really know. Back to square one... . cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Shuey, Ralph ; KlingB@health.missouri.edu = Cc: Lamberson, William R. ; Shuey, Ralph =; scan.oest@post.tele.dk =; Rodmakers Listserv = Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 5:57 AMSubject: RE: Bastard & Ethics A question: Do Impregnated rods have any less incedence of =setting?? If not,then the humidity question may be a moot point............. =Especially if thereis little or no difference between early (higher grade cane) rods =ala Orvis andlater rods, in the set department. Just an engineer's input. Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF013B.D7E26560 Ralph, A good = need a representative sampling (what would that be?) of both impregnated= been subjected to identical moisture conditions over their = possibly, someone may be in such a position to do the comparison, but = person would also need to know= in the two groups used the same glues and varnishes, that the culms used= building were identical, that the same care in initial = been taken, and that all rods had been fished = Otherwise, wecan = be less subject to= know. Back to squareone... = . Bill -----Original = Shuey, Ralph <ralph.shuey@redstone.army.m= hexagon@odyssee.net KlingB@health.missouri.edu= <KlingB@health.missouri.edu= Shuey, Ralph <ralph.shuey@redstone.army.m= scan.oest@post.tele.dk = Rodmakers Listserv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, September 16, 1999 5:57 AMSubject: RE: = may be a moot point............. Especially if thereis little or = difference between early (higher grade cane) rods ala Orvis = input.Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF013B.D7E26560-- from bob@downandacross.com Fri Sep 17 18:53:55 1999 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Hi everyone,Is anyone on the list currently rough planing strips using a router tableand a 30 degree bit? (If you made a pass on each side with the enamel sideup, the result would be three 60 degree angles? That would work, right?) Anyway, about how many strips could you cut with a normal quality bitbefore it dulled and needed to be replaced? At $30 a pop for bits, I waswondering if this was more feasible than using a straight bit angled tomake the proper cut.Thanks.Please advise, Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com from CAdams46@compuserve.com Fri Sep 17 21:21:40 1999 Subject: Dial indicator Does anyone know where I can purchase a dial indicator and base and tipother than Munro. Was planning on buying it from Munro but can't seem toget a hold of him. Looking for one mederatly priced. Would appreciate anyadvice. ThanksSincerely,C.R. Adams from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Fri Sep 17 22:02:12 1999 with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.8.5.0g.R) Subject: Re: Dial indicator Contact Russ Gooding at Goldenwitch Technologies. His website iswww.goldenwitch.com . Russ is great to deal with and stands behind hisproducts 100%. Standard disclaimers apply....not financial interest, yadda yaddayadda...Just a satisfied Goldenwitch customer. Joe Byrd ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Dial indicator Does anyone know where I can purchase a dial indicator and base and tipother than Munro. Was planning on buying it from Munro but can't seem toget a hold of him. Looking for one mederatly priced. Would appreciateanyadvice. ThanksSincerely,C.R. Adams from Canerods@aol.com Fri Sep 17 23:15:33 1999 Subject: "Amateur Rodmaking" book by Frazer All, Does anyone know the value of "Amateur Rodmaking" by Perry D. Frazer, published by MacMillan 1924? Copyright date is 1914. I just picked up a copy on eBay and want to see how badly I got taken. Don Burns from EM11EM22@aol.com Sat Sep 18 01:06:10 1999 Subject: Western Gathering If work projects don't conflict on that weekend, I will be there. (And am a willing volunteer) Here are a couple of area fish reports.Regards,Ed Miller East Carson River 9/11 Fair Below Hangman's Bridge on Hwy 4. Waters are clear and flows are normal this time of year. Best patterns are: Bead Head nymphs, Stimulators,Hoppers, Beetles, BWO's, Callibaetis nymphs, emergers (brown and olive), Yellowstone flies,Serendipity (brown, green, olive)October Caddis pupa. Leaders with7X tippets. East Walker Calif. 9/11 Fair to good East Walker: Reports are saying "some" fish are being picked up. Shouldfish better when flows reach the 290 cfs. rate. Indicator fishing in the pockets seems to be best approach using BH nymphs, stoneflies. When the wind isup switch to small size hoppers. The East Walker is fishing well. The quality of the fishing on the Walker is predicated mainly by the flows out of Bridgeport Reservoir. Recently the flows have been hovering between 200-250cfs. Flows under 200cfs make most pleasant fishing condidtions, though higher flows don't necessarily diminish your catch rate. Typical nymphing methods are always productiveon the Walker. A pair of attractor nymphs such as the Prince or A.P. under an indicator should work well. The larger browns can be susceptable tostreamers on sink-tip lines. Pulsating Caddis 14-16Prince 12-16Black A.P. 12-16B.H. Hare's Ear 12-14Brassie Minnow 8Matuka 8Muddler Minnow 8 Heenan Lake Very good 9/11 Good fishing has been reported from the opener. Dark colored streamersusing a stripping retrieve, wooley buggers, mini leeches on a sinking line. Best times is early morning and late afternoon to dark. Indicator nymphing.Large scuds(10's)in brownish grey, orange or olive scuds (14's to 16's) Best approach is in a float tube. Lake is open from Friday's to Sunday's from Labor Day through October. Hot Creek 9/11 Good Fishing is good. A good PMD, baetis and midge hatch from mid morning toearly afternoon. Later in the day try a Caddis emerger or small may flies.Dropper nymphing is good all day. A dry caddis with a emerger suspended under ithas been producing very well. Trout are rising everywhere. For those of youwho have never fished this pristine water, Do Not Wade! This stream can't tolerate it. Please fish from the banks. from rp43640@online-club.de Sat Sep 18 15:16:56 1999 Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:16:47 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: Fw: Puzzling Rod Gary, would there be chance to see also the butt measurements? Christian Gary Plowick schrieb: Here is a FWD of my correspondence with Mr. Summers. Thanks to HarryBoyd,and esp. RMargiotta for the information. Gary ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Summers Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: Bob Summers Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:37 AM Dear Mr. Plowick, Looks like you have a para, 16. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Re: Puzzling RodDate: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:45 PM Dear Mr. Summers, I don't own a micrometer, but I borrowed a calipers today and thesearethemeasurements I got, measuring back from the tip approximately every sixinches. I hope these make some sense and you can help me to identifymyrod. Tip #1: (.75)(1.04)(1.37)(1.50)(1.71)(2.01)(2.12)(2.31)(2.35)~ferrule~(2.41)(2.68)(2 .88)(2.95(3.06)(3.42)(3.55) Tip#2: (.80)(1.01)(1.33)(1.55)(1.81)(2.00)(2.10)(2.25)(2.35)~ferrule~ The length of the entire rod is, indeed, 8 1/2 feet. The cork handlemeasures 8 13/16" from the cap to the start of the visible bamboo. The marking on the rod is,Line 1: 8 1/2' 4.59 oz. HCH - HCFLine 2: Fer 15/64 tip top 5/64 Bamboo wt. 3.44 oz. I hope these measurements make sense, and thank you again for yourkindassistance in helping me. Sincerely,Gary Plowick ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Summers Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:10 PMSubject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: rsummers@gtii.com Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:01 PM Dear Gary, The writing is Paul H. Young's. The first serial number were about1955.As far as the light color heat treat. We used some of these blanksupintothe 1960"s there are probably still some of these in the shop. Withthesuper z ferrule I would guess this rod was built about 1952. Yourphotolooks like the length is 8 1/2'?? If so this may be a one and only oroneof a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a early parabolic 16 that hadtheearly stepped ferrule and was referruled with the super z. If I haddimension taken ever 6 inches I could tell more. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Puzzling RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:02 AM Dear Mr. Summers, Could you please help me to identify the rod in the attached photos?Itisan unnamed and unnumbered Paul H. Young piece. Is the fine work ontheguides and the handwriting yours? Unfortunately I don't have the original tube, only the satin bag. Thelight cane and no name/number seems to indicate pre-1946, but theSuperZferrules and beautiful work on the guides seems to indicate post-1950. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely,Gary Plowick from rp43640@online-club.de Sat Sep 18 15:20:42 1999 Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:20:38 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: Fw: Puzzling Rod Gary, excuse me didn't see there where the butt measurements.No need to send them again. Christian Gary Plowick schrieb: Here is a FWD of my correspondence with Mr. Summers. Thanks to HarryBoyd,and esp. RMargiotta for the information. Gary ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Summers Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:40 AMSubject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: Bob Summers Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Thursday, September 16, 1999 8:37 AM Dear Mr. Plowick, Looks like you have a para, 16. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Re: Puzzling RodDate: Monday, September 13, 1999 11:45 PM Dear Mr. Summers, I don't own a micrometer, but I borrowed a calipers today and thesearethemeasurements I got, measuring back from the tip approximately every sixinches. I hope these make some sense and you can help me to identifymyrod. Tip #1: (.75)(1.04)(1.37)(1.50)(1.71)(2.01)(2.12)(2.31)(2.35)~ferrule~(2.41)(2.68)(2 .88)(2.95(3.06)(3.42)(3.55) Tip#2: (.80)(1.01)(1.33)(1.55)(1.81)(2.00)(2.10)(2.25)(2.35)~ferrule~ The length of the entire rod is, indeed, 8 1/2 feet. The cork handlemeasures 8 13/16" from the cap to the start of the visible bamboo. The marking on the rod is,Line 1: 8 1/2' 4.59 oz. HCH - HCFLine 2: Fer 15/64 tip top 5/64 Bamboo wt. 3.44 oz. I hope these measurements make sense, and thank you again for yourkindassistance in helping me. Sincerely,Gary Plowick ----- Original Message -----From: Bob Summers Sent: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:10 PMSubject: Re: Puzzling Rod From: rsummers@gtii.com Subject: Paul H. Young RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 10:01 PM Dear Gary, The writing is Paul H. Young's. The first serial number were about1955.As far as the light color heat treat. We used some of these blanksupintothe 1960"s there are probably still some of these in the shop. Withthesuper z ferrule I would guess this rod was built about 1952. Yourphotolooks like the length is 8 1/2'?? If so this may be a one and only oroneof a couple. If it is 8 1/2' it may be a early parabolic 16 that hadtheearly stepped ferrule and was referruled with the super z. If I haddimension taken ever 6 inches I could tell more. Bob Summers ----------From: Gary Plowick Subject: Puzzling RodDate: Sunday, September 12, 1999 9:02 AM Dear Mr. Summers, Could you please help me to identify the rod in the attached photos?Itisan unnamed and unnumbered Paul H. Young piece. Is the fine work ontheguides and the handwriting yours? Unfortunately I don't have the original tube, only the satin bag. Thelight cane and no name/number seems to indicate pre-1946, but theSuperZferrules and beautiful work on the guides seems to indicate post-1950. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely,Gary Plowick from SalarFly@aol.com Sat Sep 18 22:30:33 1999 Subject: 5 ft. One piece Taper This is a highly specialized taper. Small creeks with brush choked banks and overhanging branches is what it was made for. Castingrange is only 30 feet, but it can roll cast 30 ft. It was made forcasting with only a couple feet of fly line out past the tip top. Lineweight is around a 4 wt., but with only a foot or so fly line out itdoesn't matter what you use. 0 0.0685 0.07610 0.08615 0.10520 0.12525 0.14030 0.15635 0.17240 0.18445 0.18450 0.21555 0.23560 0.235 from maxs@geocities.co.jp Sat Sep 18 23:15:21 1999 bysv01.geocities.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id NAA28700; Sun, 19Sep 1999 13:15:17+0900 (JST) mail.geocities.co.jp(1.3G-GeocitiesJ-3.3) with SMTP id NAA07434; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 13:15:16+0900 (JST) Subject: RE: 5 ft. One piece Taper Darryl san, We have many of such places in the rivers here in Japan.I respect you for your openminded present of tapers and for your insightwhich most of us, flymen, would need such kind of a rod. Thank you for opening your taper. I'd like to make one in this rod makingseason. Max This is a highly specialized taper. Small creeks with brush chokedbanks and overhanging branches is what it was made for. Castingrange is only 30 feet, but it can roll cast 30 ft. It was made forcasting with only a couple feet of fly line out past the tip top. Lineweight is around a 4 wt., but with only a foot or so fly line out itdoesn't matter what you use. 0 0.0685 0.07610 0.08615 0.10520 0.12525 0.14030 0.15635 0.17240 0.18445 0.18450 0.21555 0.23560 0.235 Max Rod Craft, an oriental rod crafteremail: maxs@geocities.co.jpHome Page:http://members.tripod.com/maxrod from CAdams46@compuserve.com Sat Sep 18 23:27:32 1999 Subject: Dial Indicator Thanks to all you who responded on the dial indicator request. Willprobally order from Lon Blauvelt, goldenwitch is a little too pricey forme. ThanksC.R. Adams from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Sun Sep 19 06:03:35 1999 Subject: Re: Dial Indicator I just got a dial indicator,base,standard from JD. Wagner it was only80.00 bucks and seems to perform very wellno financial interest,yada,yadaJoseph A Perrigo II from TSmithwick@aol.com Sun Sep 19 11:30:25 1999 Subject: nodeless tip Instead of using a plane to cut away most of the waste when cuttingsplices, use a chisel. Wear gloves so you don't bang your knuckles on the splicing block. Hold the chisel blade parallel to the block with the flat side down. With a little practice you can get off most of the waste with a few heavy cuts. Then finish cut with the plane or a file. I think you will find this a time saver. I use a 3/4" chisel and keep it well sharpened. Since the grain of the cane is pointing upward in the block, the chisel has no tendency to dig in. from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Sep 19 21:07:26 1999 Subject: Drain tube Will the person that contacted me of list about"what a drain tube was and low ceilings" get back to me. My finger was too fast on the D key. I havethe photos now.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Mon Sep 20 00:57:37 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id RAA26345 for ;Mon, 20 Sep 199917:58:05 +1200 Subject: Great southern rodmakers gathering I thought the following quotation from that famous person , well knownforalways speaking precise and accurate words , President Bill Clinton , maybeof interest to those who may still be contemplating a trip down here fortheGathering . President Clinton , during his recent visit here said the following : " I think every person ...dreams of finding an enchanted place withbeautiful mountains and breathtaking coastlines and clear lakes andamazingwildlife but most people give up on it , because they have never been toNew Zealand" It is not to late to register for the Great Southern Gathering in NewZealand on the 5th and 6th of November. :)) Ian Kearney from mschaffer@mindspring.com Mon Sep 20 08:41:49 1999 Subject: Drying box question Well, is everyone ready for another of my unending questions?Over this past weekend I built a drying box (approx. 12" x 12" x 54" tall)of the same type as I used to use when I did lacquered gunstocks. If I use a40 watt bulb I will achieve an internal temp of 75-80 degreesF, using a 60watt bulb I get 100 degrees--both are very stable temps. I built this tousein the house where humidity control is easier than in my shop.Now, here's the question: I'm using spar varnish for my rod finish. Whichtemperature should I keep the box at? I use the varnish, let it set up for awhile (usually about 4 hours then will be moving it to the drying box tohang until dry/cured.)---so what temp should I use? Any help will bemuchoappreciated! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from saweiss@flash.net Mon Sep 20 08:51:36 1999 Subject: Re: Drying box question Mike,I use a cabinet with a two-bulb 4-foot fluorescent. The cabinet gets toabout 100 degrees. My dipping tank is next to the cabinet and I transferafter about 2 hours hanging in the dipping cabinet.Works fine with M 'O W spar.Steve Weiss Well, is everyone ready for another of my unending questions?Over this past weekend I built a drying box (approx. 12" x 12" x 54" tall)of the same type as I used to use when I did lacquered gunstocks. If I usea40 watt bulb I will achieve an internal temp of 75-80 degreesF, using a60watt bulb I get 100 degrees--both are very stable temps. I built this tousein the house where humidity control is easier than in my shop.Now, here's the question: I'm using spar varnish for my rod finish. Whichtemperature should I keep the box at? I use the varnish, let it set up forawhile (usually about 4 hours then will be moving it to the drying box tohang until dry/cured.)---so what temp should I use? Any help will bemuchoappreciated! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from Sean.Els@intl.bidlog.co.za Mon Sep 20 09:14:20 1999 (SAST) Subject: Test No mail for five days now.Was I bumped or has everyone gone fishing ? Sean ElsWork : +2712 529 6790Fax : +2712 529 6888 from gholland@navsys.com Mon Sep 20 10:39:52 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Great southern rodmakers gathering Well known for what?????!!!!!! Don't worry, we all think New Zealand is unbelievable even if you can'tbelieve a thing the guy says. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: Great southern rodmakers gathering I thought the following quotation from that famous person , well knownforalways speaking precise and accurate words , President Bill Clinton , maybeof interest to those who may still be contemplating a trip down here fortheGathering . President Clinton , during his recent visit here said the following : " I think every person ...dreams of finding an enchanted place withbeautiful mountains and breathtaking coastlines and clear lakes andamazingwildlife but most people give up on it , because they have never been toNew Zealand" It is not to late to register for the Great Southern Gathering in NewZealand on the 5th and 6th of November. :)) Ian Kearney from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Sep 20 11:12:27 1999 Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:11:43 +0800 Subject: RE: Great southern rodmakers gathering RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu I wonder what Bill though of all those sheep? There's an interesting storyin Dr Hunter S Thompson's latest piece of gonzo journalism that may beilluminating.Bill is right though. It's hard to imagine such a sportsmans' paradise asNZ still exists. To make it all the harder to believe most of the bestparts are in public land, either Forrest land or National Parks andfishermen and hunters are *encouraged* to do what comes naturaly.My advise to you all is check the current exchange rate, buy a ticket toNZ, get a Steinlarger and congratulate yourself on making one shrewdmove. Tony At 09:44 AM 9/20/99 -0600, Greg Holland wrote:Well known for what?????!!!!!! Don't worry, we all think New Zealand is unbelievable even if you can'tbelieve a thing the guy says. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 11:58 PM Subject: Great southern rodmakers gathering I thought the following quotation from that famous person , well knownforalways speaking precise and accurate words , President Bill Clinton , maybeof interest to those who may still be contemplating a trip down here fortheGathering . President Clinton , during his recent visit here said the following : " I think every person ...dreams of finding an enchanted place withbeautiful mountains and breathtaking coastlines and clear lakes andamazingwildlife but most people give up on it , because they have never been toNew Zealand" It is not to late to register for the Great Southern Gathering in NewZealand on the 5th and 6th of November. :)) Ian Kearney /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html /*************************************************************************/ from anglport@con2.com Mon Sep 20 12:19:16 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC762D300EE; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:18:46 -0400 Subject: Whew! All,I've been off-line from you guys for about 10 days and finally got myISPto fix whatever-the-h- -l it was, so if anyone was wondering why Isnubbedthem, please resend your messages.GLAD TO BE BACK!!!!!Art from sniderja@email.uc.edu Mon Sep 20 12:31:38 1999 Subject: 8' 5 wt 2 pc I have a friend who is, perhaps, an average caster. He insists that I buildhim an 8' 2 pc. 5 wt rod. I have now built a dozen or so rods, including 3of the Sir Darryl 4 wts. However, most of my rods are short, one piecemodels, what most of you would consider specialty rods. Indeed, TomSmithwick's 5'6" 5 wt (one piece) and the Orvis 6' 6wt (one piece, built Since we apparently are unable to access the taper archives on theRodmakers web site at the moment, what tapers might you folksrecommend forsuch a rod? TIA Jerry Snider from Jmadigan@smithbreeden.com Mon Sep 20 13:26:30 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:25:07 -0400 Subject: Taper library I am a new subscriber (2 weeks). I don't have time for a full intro rightnow, but Ithought that I would offer what help I can on the tapers. Since I just recently got back in gear to make rods, I recently visited thetaperlibrary and I think that I printed out about all of them. This is the mostintriguingpart of the process to me. If folks post specific tapers they need, I'll try to post them or e-mail them. I'm not sure what the most efficient way to do this wouldbe. Obviously,if it's just a few, I could just type them out. I know that I can scan themin and geta bitmap file of about 1 MB which could be E-mailed. We are getting thefull AdobeAcrobat in our office this week, so I probably can figure out how to put itin a PDFfile to save bits. I will try to put up as many 7-9 to 8-6 5 weights as possible to answerJerry Snider'squestion. I will be interested in discussion on this size as I am thinkingof a 7-9 5wtor 8' 6wt to use on drift boat trips (3 of us share a Hyde). I know thatMike Clark's7-9 5wt is very nice, but I don't have the taper. I will be able to post some tapers tomorrow, as the copies are at home (Ihope). Jerry MadiganBoulder, CO. from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Mon Sep 20 13:42:34 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id GAA03570 for ;Tue, 21 Sep 199906:43:01 +1200 Subject: Re: Test Sean, You may have figured out by now that the list server has this habbit ofbumping people every few months. It tends to happen 2-2 times over acoupleof weeks , then you are ok for up to 12 months. To get back on it is necessary to unsubscribe and then subscribe again tothe group. If I do not get a message for 24 hours I tend to do thisautomatically. There has been mail over the last few day , not particually busy , but afewmessages each day . regards Ian Kearney At 04:13 PM 20/09/99 +0200, Sean Els wrote: No mail for five days now.Was I bumped or has everyone gone fishing ? Sean ElsWork : +2712 529 6790Fax : +2712 529 6888 from Jmadigan@smithbreeden.com Mon Sep 20 14:31:01 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:29:44 -0400 Subject: Re: RE: Taper library I do not have any of his tapers and I'm not sure I could (in good conscience)publishthem if I did. I did cast his 7-9 5 wt that he used as the basis for his"Geirachspecial" a few years back and really liked it. It has a slight hinge, butseemsslightly faster than a Cattanach 7.5 4wt, for instance. It is possible toskim a flyless than a foot off the surface on a 35 foot cast and yet can present thefly verygently. My casting experience was enhanced when Geirach saw us in thepark in Lyons andstopped by to cast another rod Mike was working on. If you run into one of his rods, it would be a good idea to cast it. I'm surethat manyfolks here have various opinions about finishing, but I don't think that youcan arguetoo much with the effectiveness of some of Mike's tapers. "Grombacher, Alan" 09/20/99 01:17PM Jerry, Do you have any of Clark's tapers? I have two of his rods. An 8ft 6wght 2pc with heavy tips, and a 8 1/2ft6wght(more a 7 actually) 3pc Gierach/Best taper with normal tips. Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Subject: Taper library I am a new subscriber (2 weeks). I don't have time for a full intro rightnow, but I thought that I would offer what help I can on the tapers. Since I just recently got back in gear to make rods, I recently visited thetaper library and I think that I printed out about all of them. This is themost intriguing part of the process to me. If folks post specific tapers they need, I'll try to post them or e-mail them. I'm not sure what the most efficient way to do this wouldbe.Obviously, if it's just a few, I could just type them out. I know that Ican scan them in and get a bitmap file of about 1 MB which could beE-mailed. We are getting the full Adobe Acrobat in our office this week,soI probably can figure out how to put it in a PDF file to save bits. I will try to put up as many 7-9 to 8-6 5 weights as possible to answerJerry Snider's question. I will be interested in discussion on this size asI am thinking of a 7-9 5wt or 8' 6wt to use on drift boat trips (3 of usshare a Hyde). I know that Mike Clark's 7-9 5wt is very nice, but I don'thave the taper. I will be able to post some tapers tomorrow, as the copies are at home (Ihope). Jerry MadiganBoulder, CO. ! ! from saweiss@flash.net Mon Sep 20 15:01:34 1999 Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc Jerry,Try this site:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.htmlSteve Weiss I have a friend who is, perhaps, an average caster. He insists that Ibuildhim an 8' 2 pc. 5 wt rod. I have now built a dozen or so rods, including3of the Sir Darryl 4 wts. However, most of my rods are short, one piecemodels, what most of you would consider specialty rods. Indeed, TomSmithwick's 5'6" 5 wt (one piece) and the Orvis 6' 6wt (one piece, built Since we apparently are unable to access the taper archives on theRodmakers web site at the moment, what tapers might you folksrecommendforsuch a rod?TIA Jerry Snider from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Mon Sep 20 15:26:52 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:26:36 -0500 Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc Jerry,I fish big waters quite a bit, and the "Mystery Rod" taper posted byDennis Higham is quickly becoming my favorite rod. It's an 8' 5 weight. Imade it as a three piece, but the two piece original is really nice. Let meknow if you're interested, and I'll post the taper. Harry BoydJerry Snider wrote: I have a friend who is, perhaps, an average caster. He insists that I buildhim an 8' 2 pc. 5 wt rod. I have now built a dozen or so rods, including 3of the Sir Darryl 4 wts. However, most of my rods are short, one piecemodels, what most of you would consider specialty rods. Indeed, TomSmithwick's 5'6" 5 wt (one piece) and the Orvis 6' 6wt (one piece, built Since we apparently are unable to access the taper archives on theRodmakers web site at the moment, what tapers might you folksrecommend forsuch a rod?TIA Jerry Snider from flytyr@southshore.com Mon Sep 20 19:35:37 1999 Subject: Silk Hi list,I was tying at the Dealers Convention last weekand was offered some silk thread for rod wrapping.When I started to wrap with it today I noticed thecolors I chose were 6/0. Wrapped a couple ofguides, stripper and a # 4 snake. It took a lot ofextra wraps but came out nice and smooth. What Iwas wondering about, before I wrap any moreguides, is the 6/0 too weak. Will it give me aproblem in use. I have some 0 thread but not thecolors I want.Thanks in advance,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com from jaquin@netsync.net Mon Sep 20 21:38:17 1999 quartz.netsync.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25826 Subject: netcraft anybody have the url for netcraft fishing supplies? tia jerry from Nodewrrior@aol.com Mon Sep 20 22:39:18 1999 Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc I think there's a Payne 102 in the Stetzer archive thanks to Dennis that is supposed to be an excellent 8/5 2pc Rob Hoffhines from bruno@linkline.com Mon Sep 20 23:05:54 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A39026D023A; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:03:28 -0700 Subject: Plane Blade Angle Q Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from jfoster@gte.net Tue Sep 21 01:09:41 1999 Subject: Re: Stress Chris Do you still have room and is the offer still good yes everyone i know the taper archive is screwed up.. regards jerry from chris@artistree.com Tue Sep 21 03:53:17 1999 Subject: Re: netcraft http://www.jannsnetcraft.com/-- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Jaquin wrote: anybody have the url for netcraft fishing supplies? tia jerry from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Tue Sep 21 04:57:45 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id VAA28378; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:57:59 +1200 Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc Jerry , You might also consider the Hardy cc de France. The 8 foot weight 5 wasposted a few months ago ( I think I have a hard copy of the postingsomewhere in my paper files as I do not totally trust these new fangledcomputor things) . I also have the 9' weight 5 which is a magnificent rod ifyou wish to consider that. regards Ian Kearney At 03:28 PM 20/09/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote: Jerry,I fish big waters quite a bit, and the "Mystery Rod" taper posted byDennis Higham is quickly becoming my favorite rod. It's an 8' 5 weight. Imade it as a three piece, but the two piece original is really nice. Let meknow if you're interested, and I'll post the taper. Harry BoydJerry Snider wrote: I have a friend who is, perhaps, an average caster. He insists that Ibuildhim an 8' 2 pc. 5 wt rod. I have now built a dozen or so rods, including 3of the Sir Darryl 4 wts. However, most of my rods are short, one piecemodels, what most of you would consider specialty rods. Indeed, TomSmithwick's 5'6" 5 wt (one piece) and the Orvis 6' 6wt (one piece, built Since we apparently are unable to access the taper archives on theRodmakers web site at the moment, what tapers might you folksrecommend forsuch a rod?TIA Jerry Snider from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Sep 21 07:08:19 1999 Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:08:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Silk boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF0408.0B83CDE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF0408.0B83CDE0 I think there's no way to predict this, but my guess is that actually =very little is required as far as the strength of each individual guide =is concerned. In a big steelhead or salmon rod, the story is perhaps =different, but for most trout rods of average size, the casting stresses =upon each individual guide can't be much, since these stresses are = You probably will have more than a 150 winds on the two feet of a guide =(with thread so fine), and the cumulative strength of so many winds is =going to be far greater than you might imagine. Moreover, the multiple =coats of varnish, when cured, act as a powerful adhesive, bonding the =silk together (and to the cane). I don't think I would worry about the =strength factor. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Tony Spezio Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 5:42 PMSubject: Silk Hi list,I was tying at the Dealers Convention last weekand was offered some silk thread for rod wrapping.When I started to wrap with it today I noticed thecolors I chose were 6/0. Wrapped a couple ofguides, stripper and a # 4 snake. It took a lot ofextra wraps but came out nice and smooth. What Iwas wondering about, before I wrap any moreguides, is the 6/0 too weak. Will it give me aproblem in use. I have some 0 thread but not thecolors I want.Thanks in advance,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF0408.0B83CDE0 Tony, = I = no way to predict this, but my guess is that actually very little is = steelhead or salmon rod, the story is perhaps different, but for most = of average size, the casting stresses upon each individual guide can't = since these stresses are shared and dissipated by all the other = You probably will= a 150 winds on the two feet of a guide (with thread so fine), and the = worry about the strength factor. Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= SilkHi list,I was tying at the wrapping.When I started to wrap with it today I noticed = chose were 6/0. Wrapped a couple ofguides, stripper and a # 4 = took a lot ofextra wraps but came out nice and smooth. What = wondering about, before I wrap any moreguides, is the 6/0 too = it give me aproblem in use. I have some 0 thread but not = ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF0408.0B83CDE0-- from miler257@gateway.net Tue Sep 21 07:41:42 1999 Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc I think there's a Payne 102 in the Stetzer archive thanks to Dennis that issupposed to be an excellent 8/5 2pc Rob HoffhinesI built the Payne 102 this year. Taper is in George Maurer's book. Verynice 5 wt. Ed Miller.> from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Sep 21 08:24:08 1999 Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:24:01 -0400 Subject: RE: 8' 5 wt 2 pc Harry -I'm looking for a good medium-to-big water rod, especially fornymphs and wet flies - it's a caddis fly river - and I've been thinking thepara 15 would be the right one to build (or maybe the para 16). How dothese compare to your "Mystery Rod" taper? - Seth Steinzor -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd [SMTP:fbcwin@fsbnet.com]Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 4:28 PM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: 8' 5 wt 2 pc Jerry,I fish big waters quite a bit, and the "Mystery Rod" taper postedbyDennis Higham is quickly becoming my favorite rod. It's an 8' 5 weight.Imade it as a three piece, but the two piece original is really nice. Letmeknow if you're interested, and I'll post the taper. Harry BoydJerry Snider wrote: I have a friend who is, perhaps, an average caster. He insists that Ibuildhim an 8' 2 pc. 5 wt rod. I have now built a dozen or so rods,including 3of the Sir Darryl 4 wts. However, most of my rods are short, one piecemodels, what most of you would consider specialty rods. Indeed, TomSmithwick's 5'6" 5 wt (one piece) and the Orvis 6' 6wt (one piece, built Since we apparently are unable to access the taper archives on theRodmakers web site at the moment, what tapers might you folksrecommendforsuch a rod?TIA Jerry Snider from abeged@townsqr.com Tue Sep 21 08:52:56 1999 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.5) with SMTP id;Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:57:08 -0500 Subject: Mystery Rod boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF040E.A5E27C00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF040E.A5E27C00 Hi, Harry I mismeasured the taper that I sent for the suspected Para 16 of mine. =It runs out into the handle at .350, starting about 4 inches abouve the =handle. (The "standard" para 16 is .305) It's still a mystery to me, =though, because while the weight and lenght are perfect for a para 16, I =measure the male end on the Super Z ferrule to be 17/64. The hexrod = I inherited the rod with a 30's-era Pflueger Success reel, so what I =suspect is that the rod is an experimental taper from the 30's that was =referruled in the early 50's with a 17/64 ferrule for some reason. Regards,Gary ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF040E.A5E27C00 Hi, Harry I mismeasured the taper that I lenght are perfect for a para 16, I measure the male end on the Super Z = I inherited the rod with a 30's-era Pflueger Success= what I suspect is that the rod is an experimental taper from the 30's = referruled in the early 50's with a 17/64 ferrule for some =reason. Regards,Gary ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF040E.A5E27C00-- from mschaffer@mindspring.com Tue Sep 21 10:19:00 1999 Subject: Straightening after finishing Just a hypothetical question for the gang!Now, of course none of us know anyone who would need this help but....justsupposing that someone has put the final coats of varnish on his rod (orhers) and sees an area where a little tweeking may make it evenstraighter.Hypothetically, of course, what would be his safest course of action??Andupon straightening, would he have to go back and revarnish the rod for theumteenth time?? Just posing a question for discussion, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Sep 21 10:27:01 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:26:44 -0500 Don Laurenza , Jerry Snider,Seth Steinzor ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: 8' 5wt Guys,I'll post the original Mystery Rod Taper as soon as I can find it. Forthosewho areinterested, here's the three piece version. It's a powerful 5 weight whichwill cast awhole linein the right hands. Not at all parabolic, much "faster" action. Fished withitextensively thispast weekend, and found that the very soft tip (.051) helps me preventbreaking off the7x tippet Ifound necessary for spooky fish. Again, thanks to Dennis Higham for sharing this taper with me!! Harry Line Weight: 5Pieces: 3Line Fished: 55 ftTip Factor: 2.528Ferrule Type: StandardFerrule #1: Size 10/64; Wt 0.162 oz.; Rod Dim 10.31/64 @ 32 inFerrule #2: Size 16/64; Wt 0.415 oz.; Rod Dim 16.18/64 @ 64 in ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inches Dimension Stress1 0.051 1589065 0.073 27458410 0.098 23197215 0.110 25274520 0.125 23678425 0.140 21799430 0.154 20409935 0.172 18125040 0.193 15795745 0.202 16487050 0.209 17459955 0.222 17141260 0.238 16060165 0.257 14779270 0.281 13286275 0.292 13687680 0.313 12752785 0.348 10666486 0.348 109389 Jerry Madigan wrote: Harry, I had no problem opening the files, bu they were identical 3 piece specs. Sorry forthe hassle. from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Sep 21 10:36:49 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:36:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Newbie Bill,As a seasoned wood-worker, and not just sawdust thrower, maybeyoucan enlighten us a little. We had a discussion on this some time ago, and Iknow Jack Howell recommends an included angle of 40-45 degrees. I'vegoneto about 35* as a compromise between ease of cutting and less of atendencyto tear fibers out. I really think that if your plane is sharp enough, andyour touch is light enough, tearing fibers becomes almost a moot point. Harry Coopers wrote: Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Sep 21 10:57:18 1999 Tue, 21 Sep 1999 23:56:47 +0800 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Bill,I'm very interested in the results of the 55 degree plane, also what areyou using for the iron?I would suggest a brass sole, the bamboo will open the throat on a woodensole very quickly. Tony At 10:38 AM 9/21/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Newbie Bill,As a seasoned wood-worker, and not just sawdust thrower, maybeyoucan enlighten us a little. We had a discussion on this some time ago, andIknow Jack Howell recommends an included angle of 40-45 degrees. I'vegoneto about 35* as a compromise between ease of cutting and less of atendencyto tear fibers out. I really think that if your plane is sharp enough, andyour touch is light enough, tearing fibers becomes almost a moot point. Harry Coopers wrote: Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@fsbnet.com Tue Sep 21 11:01:29 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) 0500 Subject: Dan Seals?? Friends,Do any of you know how to get in touch with Dan Seals.Apparently he lives in Nashville, writes and sings songs, and builds afine bamboo rod. Thanks,Harry from jfoster@gte.net Tue Sep 21 11:03:55 1999 Subject: myst rod Here are the orig. measurements for the leonard Mystery rod thanks Dennis 1-1/8 057-057-056 2" 059-059-061 (could notdo1-1/8)5 079-078-081 080-080-08010 100-105-104 098-100-09915 116-120-116 120-118-11920 131-131-128 129-133-13125 147-146-145 142-143-14429-1/2 158-159-158 156-156-15731-1/8 163-165-167 166-165-16435 177-177-178 187-179-17640 197-195-196 189-191-19245 204-206-195 201-201-19846-1/8 205-206-203 201-201-200 Butt 51 216-213-21155 221-225-22560 243-242- 24265 258-263-26170 283-273-29075 288- 293-29980 313-313-28481 319-321-32282 328-325-32583 330-328-33084 332-334-33685 343-346-348 Guide Spacing : Tips 6-3/8, 14, 10-3/8, 30-1/4, 38-9/16,Butt 50, 58- 1/4, 67-11/16 Varnish Estimate: 003 to 004 per flat; 006 to 008 total across flats from Jmadigan@smithbreeden.com Tue Sep 21 11:29:38 1999 with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:28:17 -0400 Subject: For Jerry Snider I tried to send you a bunch of PDF files with 5 wgt. tapers, but gotrejected - "accessdenied". I tried again without the attachments and got the same result. Ican'tguarantee that it is on your end, but this is the only problem I have hadrecently. Is there another address I can try? from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Sep 21 12:16:03 1999 Subject: Re: Dan Seals?? Harry,Saw him on TNN one night with a splintered rod tip. It seems that he has aplace on his bus that he uses to work on them. I forgot what the wholestory was on that tip section.I like his music, it tells a story and is down to earth.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Friends,Do any of you know how to get in touch with Dan Seals.Apparently he lives in Nashville, writes and sings songs, and builds afine bamboo rod. Thanks,Harry from anglport@con2.com Tue Sep 21 13:40:26 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A10436C00A6; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:40:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Bill,Don't know what your def of a low-angle is but I'm using the Stanley9 1/2with a blade sharpened to a 37 deg bevel. I tried lower awhile back (stillwith the 9 1/2) and this arrangement has it all over that.Sounds like that should fit your hypothesis of high angle for figuredwood, The cane is a piece of cake from node to node. It's dem dere nodesthat are the killers! Replace burl with node and you'll come out fine everytime.Good luck, Art At 09:04 PM 09/20/1999 -0700, Coopers wrote:Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 21 13:57:22 1999 13:56:32 -0500 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Low Angle Plane I just received a new Lee catalog which features a 'new' Veritas low-angle blockplane. It looks good but I would like to hear comments from others moreknowledgeablethan me. $'s more than Record or Stanley but less than Lie-Nielsen. Art Port wrote: Bill,Don't know what your def of a low-angle is but I'm using theStanley 9 1/2with a blade sharpened to a 37 deg bevel. I tried lower awhile back (stillwith the 9 1/2) and this arrangement has it all over that.Sounds like that should fit your hypothesis of high angle for figuredwood, The cane is a piece of cake from node to node. It's dem dere nodesthat are the killers! Replace burl with node and you'll come out fineeverytime.Good luck,Art At 09:04 PM 09/20/1999 -0700, Coopers wrote:Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from anglport@con2.com Tue Sep 21 14:02:12 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A61E26800FA; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:01:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Straightening after finishing Mike,I've used that electric heater I've talked to death here on varnished(even freshly-varnished rods and had no deterioration in the finish. It'sgentle and the varnish seems not to interfere with the process.After all, what's the alternative, strip the rod BEFORE you straightenit?Heck, you can do that AFTER you do the job if it doesn't work out! Anyelectric stovetop should do the trick.Art At 11:17 AM 09/21/1999 -0400, michael w. shaffer wrote:Just a hypothetical question for the gang!Now, of course none of us know anyone who would need this helpbut....justsupposing that someone has put the final coats of varnish on his rod (orhers) and sees an area where a little tweeking may make it evenstraighter.Hypothetically, of course, what would be his safest course of action??Andupon straightening, would he have to go back and revarnish the rod for theumteenth time?? Just posing a question for discussion, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from anglport@con2.com Tue Sep 21 14:04:37 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A69F41800A6; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:03:59 -0400 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Dan Seals?? Tony,Is this the Seals of Seals and Croft?Art At 11:22 AM 09/21/1999 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:Harry,Saw him on TNN one night with a splintered rod tip. It seems that he hasaplace on his bus that he uses to work on them. I forgot what the wholestory was on that tip section.I like his music, it tells a story and is down to earth.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Friends,Do any of you know how to get in touch with Dan Seals.Apparently he lives in Nashville, writes and sings songs, and builds afine bamboo rod. Thanks,Harry from thramer@presys.com Tue Sep 21 14:26:58 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Dan Seals?? Art Port wrote: Tony,Is this the Seals of Seals and Croft?Art At 11:22 AM 09/21/1999 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:Harry,Saw him on TNN one night with a splintered rod tip. It seems that he hasaplace on his bus that he uses to work on them. I forgot what the wholestory was on that tip section.I like his music, it tells a story and is down to earth.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Harry Boyd wrote: Friends,Do any of you know how to get in touch with Dan Seals.Apparently he lives in Nashville, writes and sings songs, and builds afine bamboo rod. Thanks,Harry No dma as Seals and Crofts was his brother, he was England Dan & JohnFord Coley to start with prior to the solo career. The last time Italked with him his brother was ranching coconuts or some such inanother country.A.J.Thramer from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 21 15:40:41 1999 Subject: Re: Straightening after finishing That does not sound right, your rods must have far too much moisture inthem if youcan straighten them without ruining the varnish! The section should needto heated tojust below scorching before the cane starts to feel soft. The cane willthen staystraight.Terry Art Port wrote: Mike,I've used that electric heater I've talked to death here on varnished(even freshly-varnished rods and had no deterioration in the finish. It'sgentle and the varnish seems not to interfere with the process.After all, what's the alternative, strip the rod BEFORE youstraighten it?Heck, you can do that AFTER you do the job if it doesn't work out! Anyelectric stovetop should do the trick.Art At 11:17 AM 09/21/1999 -0400, michael w. shaffer wrote:Just a hypothetical question for the gang!Now, of course none of us know anyone who would need this helpbut....justsupposing that someone has put the final coats of varnish on his rod (orhers) and sees an area where a little tweeking may make it evenstraighter.Hypothetically, of course, what would be his safest course of action??Andupon straightening, would he have to go back and revarnish the rod fortheumteenth time??Just posing a question for discussion, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 21 15:50:02 1999 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Bill,go with what you know and don't get confused. Pick over advice verycarefully!Terry, ( a crusty old metalworker) Coopers wrote: Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from channer@hubwest.com Tue Sep 21 18:56:56 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id ABBE1D040148; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:58:54 MST Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane At 02:54 PM 09/21/1999 -0400, FREDERICK W BOHLS, CFP wrote:I just received a new Lee catalog which features a 'new' Veritas low- angleblockplane. It looks good but I would like to hear comments from others moreknowledgeablethan me. $'s more than Record or Stanley but less than Lie-Nielsen. Fred;Low angle block planes may work for some folks, but they are notoriousfortearing out grain, unless you want to do all your planing only taking off.001 at a time, then stick with the regular 9 1/2 with the bevel sharpenedto a steeper than 30d angle, you will chip nodes a lot less. The low angleplane was designed for planing end grain, at that angle is shears acrosswood fibers, but on edge grain it is so low that will will tend to getunderneath them and lift, causing a tear out.John from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Sep 21 20:55:01 1999 Subject: happy hooker Hi guys,I just received my George Gerkhe what a complete piece of shit you can't tell if it casts well because the ferrule is so loose the tip would fall off, the finish has runs all over, and the wraps are not the samelength and are globbed with flex coat. And that's not to mention the niceBellinger slide band that is destroyed with a7.5" full wells grip full of glue.Just thought you all would want to knowThanks Joe from KDLoup@aol.com Tue Sep 21 22:38:16 1999 Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane Correct me if I am wrong. If you sharpened the bevel on the blade in the12 degree low angle plane to 43 degrees, you will accomplish the same thingas sharpening the 20 degree bed angle plane's blade to 35 degrees. I know someone doing this with the LN low angle plane. Kurt Loup from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Sep 21 23:08:43 1999 Subject: Terry Ackland Will someone please send me Terry's email address. Thanks in advance. from mrj@aa.net Tue Sep 21 23:19:49 1999 Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:19:44 -0700 Subject: RE: happy hooker So, are you going to send it back? He must have a satisfaction guaranteedpolicy I would think. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Eastkoyfly@aol.com Subject: happy hooker Hi guys,I just received my George Gerkhe what a complete piece of shit youcan't tell if it casts well because the ferrule is so loose the tip wouldfall off, the finish has runs all over, and the wraps are not the samelengthand are globbed with flex coat. And that's not to mention the niceBellingerslide band that is destroyed with a7.5" full wells grip full of glue.Just thought you all would want to knowThanks Joe from trout_eejit@hotmail.com Wed Sep 22 02:25:10 1999 Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:24:37 PDT Subject: Re: happy hooker Well, according to Mr. Gehrke on ROFF, all the problems with his rod are caused by the fact that UPS trucks are dark brown! Bob From: Eastkoyfly@aol.com Subject: happy hookerDate: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:54:26 EDT Hi guys,I just received my George Gerkhe what a complete piece of shit youcan't tell if it casts well because the ferrule is so loose the tip wouldfall off, the finish has runs all over, and the wraps are not the same lengthand are globbed with flex coat. And that's not to mention the nice Bellingerslide band that is destroyed with a7.5" full wells grip full of glue.Just thought you all would want to knowThanks Joe ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from channer@hubwest.com Wed Sep 22 06:35:23 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id AF77273500EE; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 05:37:27 MST Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane At 11:37 PM 09/21/1999 EDT, you wrote:Correct me if I am wrong. If you sharpened the bevel on the blade in the12 degree low angle plane to 43 degrees, you will accomplish the same thingas sharpening the 20 degree bed angle plane's blade to 35 degrees. I know someone doing this with the LN low angle plane. Kurt Loup Kurt;I guess that hadn't occured to me. The one thing I can say in favor of thelow angle plane, you can get them in most hardware stores and the 9 1/2isharder to find. Whatever works.John from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Sep 22 13:37:11 1999 Subject: Re: Silk rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you add wrapsthe strength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry about breaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand on silkk and wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have thestrength yourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide. Arnold himself can not break this.Bret from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 22 13:52:57 1999 ix1.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) "virtualflybox@mLists.net" Subject: Any Flyshop Owners Out There? I have a couple questions I would like to ask offlist about running aflyshop. Please contact me offlist if you might be of help. Thanks. Jeremy Grayjf_gray@ix.netcom.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Sep 22 15:31:22 1999 Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane There is an angle on top of the blade which can be altered and an anglethat isbuilt into the plane. They both have an effect on the cutting. You wouldhave toregrind the top angle and also grind an angle on the bottom of the blade togivea 20deg angle. KDLoup@aol.com wrote: Correct me if I am wrong. If you sharpened the bevel on the blade in the12degree low angle plane to 43 degrees, you will accomplish the samething assharpening the 20 degree bed angle plane's blade to 35 degrees. I knowsomeone doing this with the LN low angle plane. Kurt Loup from jerrymorton@email.msn.com Wed Sep 22 18:22:33 1999 SMTPSVC;Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:18:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Silk But how does the modulus of elasticity of silk compare to that ofsteel??? ----------From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SilkDate: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:35 AM Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you add wrapsthe strength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry about breaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand onsilkk and wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have thestrength yourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide. Arnold himself can not break this.Bret from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 22 19:57:25 1999 with ESMTP id +0000 Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane All, You can get both types of planes (and more) from the Garrett Wadecompany in New York. I think their URL is www.gatterrwade.com orsomething like that. They might not have the lowest price, but theyhave lots of planes. They also have Hock blades for them at areasonable price. No interest... Blah, blah... Dennis channer wrote: At 11:37 PM 09/21/1999 EDT, you wrote:Correct me if I am wrong. If you sharpened the bevel on the blade in the12degree low angle plane to 43 degrees, you will accomplish the samething assharpening the 20 degree bed angle plane's blade to 35 degrees. I knowsomeone doing this with the LN low angle plane. Kurt Loup Kurt;I guess that hadn't occured to me. The one thing I can say in favor of thelow angle plane, you can get them in most hardware stores and the 9 1/2isharder to find. Whatever works.John -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from jaquin@netsync.net Wed Sep 22 19:59:29 1999 0400 Subject: messages is the sever down again? little or no messages for several days! from seanmcs@ar.com.au Wed Sep 22 20:19:08 1999 +1000 Subject: No subject was specified. I am trying in vain to ensure that my depth gauge is set right, and havetried several checks with unuseful results. The math worked out asfollows: Trial 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Depth Ind read .070 .070 .070 .070 .089 .089 .089 .089 form thickness .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750drill dia (rod) .062 .110 .171 .219 .062 .110 .171 .219f + d .768 .839 .910 .958 .751 .822 .900 .952 drill x 1.5 .093 .165 .2565 .3285 .093 .165 .2565 .3285f + d- f .018 .089 .160 .208 .001 .072 .150 .202difference .075 .076 .0965 .1205 .092 .093 .1065 .1265 The depth gauge point is a new Starrett. The form groove looks like a 60degree angle as checked by a Starrett 60 degree check. The depthindicator was set with a "standard" from George Maurer. I am wonderingif there is some mathematical reason that increasing sizes of drill(rod) diameter begin to throw up ever increasing discrepancies? Or haveI got the math wrong. Any insights, anyone? Thanks. Sean from saltwein@swbell.net Wed Sep 22 20:24:25 1999 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7)with ESMTP id for Subject: Cork Order All, I am contemplating a cork order. I have ordered from this company beforeand received decent stuff at 699.00. They're top grade cork is 1250.00per 1000 pieces.These are shipped in bags of 100. I am proposing making the initial purchase and parcelling these outunopened in bags of 100 for 130.00 per bag and I will pay shipping. Ifany one is interested contact me privately. Let me know what you mightwant or if you have any suggestions. I hope this doesn't violate the shameful commerce division. Regards, Steve from seanmcs@ar.com.au Wed Sep 22 20:34:00 1999 forged)) +1000 Subject: No subject was specified. I am trying in vain to ensure that my depth gauge is set right, and havetried several checks with unuseful results. The math worked out asfollows: Trial 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Depth Ind read .070 .070 .070 .070 .089 .089 .089 .089 form thickness .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750 .750drill dia (rod).062 .110 .171 .219 .062 .110 .171 .219f + d .768 .839 .910 .958 .75 .822 .900 .952 drill x 1.5 .093 .165 .2565 .3285 .093 .165 .256 .3285f + d- f .018 .089 .160 .208 .001 .072 .15 .202difference .075 .076 .0965 .1205 .092 .093 .1065 .1265 The depth gauge point is a new Starrett. The form groove looks like a 60degree angle as checked by a Starrett 60 degree check. The depthindicator was set with a "standard" from George Maurer. I am wonderingif there is some mathematical reason that increasing sizes of drill(rod) diameter begin to throw up ever increasing discrepancies? Or haveI got the math wrong. Any insights, anyone? Thanks. Sean from bruno@linkline.com Wed Sep 22 22:33:08 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEDF13E90130; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:30:39 -0700 Subject: Plane Blade Angle Thank You Thanks to all for taking the time to reply to my little inquiry...Since my first post to this group received such a warm response, I'lltry andsend one back to you all. To all who offered advise, thank you. To allwho had questions, here goes: I'm making a true traditional wood plane, and it will sport a lignumvitae sole.It's something I've wanted to do for some time, esp. for workingdifficult woods.The mouth will be fixed, but very tight for those light passes. Iconsidered contriving an adjustable mouth, but I have to keep remindingmyself I'm making a traditional plane...If it works, perhaps I'll try my hand at a dovetailed metal plane(brass/metal & wood infill). As far as the blade goes, I picked up agood "looking" piece of steel from a crusty old metal worker at the swapmeet : )The spark patterns look right on the grinder, and the metal has a nice"feel" to it. It's 3/16" thickand should temper up nicely if needed. In terms of blade angles and "enlightenment", I can only tell you whatmost of you already know: difficult woods = high angle.The problem is that it is very difficult to find a bevel down plane withan angle higher than 45*. The old single iron planes employed by pre-production woodworkers wereoften bevel down affairs, and planes with low angles were known assoftwod planes, while high angles were known as hardwood planes. Amongthose, a blade angle of 50* may have been called a "York" plane, while55* planes might have been called "middle pitch" planes. Mouldingplanes may have had angles as high as 60*, and all of the above weredesigned to prevent tear-out. Production planes makers settled on 45*as a compromise for the masses, and inso doing, possibly began thedumbing down of the highly skilled craftsman who made special tools forspecial purposes.And that brought me to my question regarding plane angles and cane. Thanks againBill from ROBERT.KOPE@prodigy.net Wed Sep 22 22:38:50 1999 Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:38:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Most higher angle planes put the bevel on the back side of the blade, blockplanes put the bevel on the front of the blade. What matters is not theangle at which the blade is set in the body of the plane, but the angle thecutting edge makes with the wood. I've settled on sharpening all mybladesto 45 degrees and use a 6 1/2 for roughing and a 9 1/2 for final planing.That equates to about a 57 degree angle for roughing and 66 degrees forfinal planing. -- just my $.02, Robert Kope-----Original Message----- Subject: Plane Blade Angle Q Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from dhaftel@att.com Thu Sep 23 07:46:09 1999 IAA25405; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1sol2) (5.5.2448.0) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Low Angle Plane Uh... That's http://www.garrettwade.com/ Sorry for the typos. Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Low Angle Plane All, You can get both types of planes (and more) from the Garrett Wadecompany in New York. I think their URL is www.gatterrwade.com orsomething like that. They might not have the lowest price, but theyhave lots of planes. They also have Hock blades for them at areasonable price. No interest... Blah, blah... Dennis channer wrote: At 11:37 PM 09/21/1999 EDT, you wrote:Correct me if I am wrong. If you sharpened the bevel on the blade in the12degree low angle plane to 43 degrees, you will accomplish the samethingassharpening the 20 degree bed angle plane's blade to 35 degrees. I knowsomeone doing this with the LN low angle plane. Kurt Loup Kurt;I guess that hadn't occured to me. The one thing I can say in favor of thelow angle plane, you can get them in most hardware stores and the 9 1/2isharder to find. Whatever works.John -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Sep 23 07:58:51 1999 Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:04:21 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Silk Why would it matter? I'd imagine the average winding of silk will holdmore than anybody (Arnie included) could lift. Tony On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Jerry Morton wrote: But how does the modulus of elasticity of silk compare to that ofsteel??? ----------From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SilkDate: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:35 AM Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you addwrapsthe strength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry about breaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand onsilkk and wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have thestrength yourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide. Arnold himself can not break this.Bret /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Sep 23 09:01:02 1999 Subject: Re: Silk 1999) at 09/23/9908:55:19 AM Not sure why the question is being asked. Modulus of elasticity has nothingto do with strength - it only appears in the equations to calculatedeflection. It's defined experimentally as stress divided by strain(elongation) and has units of lbs./sq.in (psi). It's irrelevant here,unless one is trying to determine how much the silk is stretching to letthe guide lift off the rod. I'd also question that silk has a higher ultimate tensile strength thansteel. Could be, but steel is anywhere from 30,000psi to 350,000psi,depending on the grade. (Just a note: modulus of elasticity of steel isaround 29,000,000psi.). Remember, in working with bamboo, we oftenconvertlbs/sq.in to oz/sq.in. - osi, if you will, which is a factor of 16difference from psi (16 oz per lb) - just to keep the numbers visible (forreasons of resolution and precision). Best regards,-Ed Estlow "Jerry Morton",.com> ,, Sent by: owner- rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Silk 09/22/99 08:17 PMPlease respond tojerrymorton But how does the modulus of elasticity of silk compare to that ofsteel??? ----------From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SilkDate: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:35 AM Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you add wrapsthestrength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry aboutbreaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand onsilkkand wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have thestrengthyourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide.Arnoldhimself can not break this.Bret from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Sep 23 09:42:00 1999 Subject: Re: Silk 1999) at 09/23/9909:36:16 AM the time I hit SEND, I decided I should have put that in my postexplicitly. My appologies for any misunderstandings or presumption on my part. Best,-Ed Estlow Tony Youngcc: Rodmakers@srminc.comSubject: Re: Silk09/23/9909:43 AM Well, it's still strong enough. Tony At 02:08 PM 9/23/99 +0000, eestlow@srminc.com wrote: Not sure why the question is being asked. Modulus of elasticity hasnothingto do with strength - it only appears in the equations to calculatedeflection. It's defined experimentally as stress divided by strain(elongation) and has units of lbs./sq.in (psi). It's irrelevant here,unless one is trying to determine how much the silk is stretching to letthe guide lift off the rod. I'd also question that silk has a higher ultimate tensile strength thansteel. Could be, but steel is anywhere from 30,000psi to 350,000psi,depending on the grade. (Just a note: modulus of elasticity of steel isaround 29,000,000psi.). Remember, in working with bamboo, we oftenconvertlbs/sq.in to oz/sq.in. - osi, if you will, which is a factor of 16difference from psi (16 oz per lb) - just to keep the numbers visible (forreasons of resolution and precision). Best regards,-Ed Estlow "Jerry Morton" ,.com> ,,Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc: .wustl.edu Subject: Re: Silk 09/22/99 08:17 PM Please respond to jerrymorton But how does the modulus of elasticity of silk compare to that ofsteel??? ----------From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SilkDate: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:35 AM Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you addwrapsthestrength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry aboutbreaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand onsilkkand wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have thestrengthyourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide.Arnoldhimself can not break this.Bret /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html /*************************************************************************/ from CAIrvinerods@aol.com Thu Sep 23 10:09:25 1999 Subject: Bishop Gathering To All, Sorry to be off line so long but am finally back and wondering if anything has happened about the Bishop Gathering in late Oct. Do not have your add Darrell. I am still interested in having the event and will do much of the foot work here in Bishop. Please note that I have a new add. CAIrvinerods@aol.com Tight Lines, Chuck from DNHayashi@aol.com Thu Sep 23 11:12:52 1999 Subject: Quad, Penta, and Hex comparison. I was finally able to go fishing for a day after starting a new joband having to get up to speed on the project I was assigned to. Thiswas my year of the lost fishing season. So I go to the river with a quiver of bamboo rods I made during thesummer. I had a 5 ft. one piece, a 7 ft. Sir D in a 3 piece quad, a 7 ft. Sir D in a two piece penta, and of course my old stand by, the two piece Sir D in a hex. The 5 ft. one piece I just recently wrote about. Comparing the quad, penta and hex was interesting. The sir D hex hasbeen written about on this list many times before, so I won't go overit again. The quad I wrote about before, but it has a unique action.With short casts it feels wimpy. At 20 feet it feels like the rod won'tcast much line more than that 20 feet. At 30 feet something in the rodwakes up, at 40 feet I can still feel the rod has more to give, and since I'm not that great of a caster 65 to 70 feet is all I can castthis rod. I think a good caster should be able to manage at least 80feet. The penta (finally finished it!) has a personality of it's own. It'sthe Sage RPL of bamboo rods. Sanding it presented problems - to sanda flat you have to balance it on the opposite apex. Difficult whenyou get close to the tip. The penta has a quick action all the waythrough. Nothing subtle about this rod, in fact I'm thinking of sandingin more of a Cattanach Hinge. Roll casting is a little bit of a challenge.A penta lets you know it's a distance caster from the start. 70 to 80 foot casts were no problem for me, but short casts tended to slap theline into the water. Of course that can be taken care of with bettercasting technique, but I didn't have that problem with the other rods. Now remember this was the same taper in all three configurations. Allthe differences can be taken care of by adjusting the taper, but whywould anybody want to? Might as well take advantage of what each configuration does. A quad and a penta has to be made thinner than a hex to handle the same line weight. They will be lighter, but not by a lot. The quad is now my favorite rod, the penta I would take if wind or distance would be a problem. The hex goes on the shelf. Darryl from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 23 11:36:54 1999 9:48:23 PDT Subject: 7'3" EC Powell Baitcasting Rod This is a 7'3" EC Powell steelhead lure/baitcasting rod found at a fly shop in Joseph, Oregon. The six guides were all NS framed agate, and these are the measurements I took from it. It is a two piece rod of equal length sections. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1" .0885" .11610" .12915" .15120" .16825" .18130" .20135" .22340" .24242" .248Ferrule46" .25650" .27255" .29460" .30865" .34270" .36075" .375 from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 23 11:46:59 1999 9:58:30 PDT Subject: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 8 1/2' 3/2 2f These are the measurements taken from a Heddon 3/2 #17 Black Beauty in8 1/2' length and a size 2f ferrule. Designated for line HDH or E which is a 6DT and whatever "E" is. I subtracted .004" for varnish. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1" .0785" .09410" .10615" .12220" .13725" .14630" .159Ferrule36" .17440" .18945" .20450" .21755" .23060" .25065" .264Ferrule70" .28675" .29980" .31085" .324Swell begins at about 89" (.346)90" .395 from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 23 12:01:05 1999 10:12:42 PDT Subject: Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/2 5 wt. These measurements were taken from a Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/2 5 wt. Impregnated rod. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1" .066,.074,.072 .070,.070,.0725" .088,.088,.083 .085,.086,.08710" .103,.103,guide .109,.109,guide15" .126,.126,.127 .126,.126,.12920" .138,.139,.139 .138,.139,.14025" .143,.145,guide .146,.148,guide30" .159,.159,.160 .162,.165,.16535" .181,.182,.182 .177,.180,.18240" .184,.185,.188 .184,.185,.18643 1/4" .186,.187,guide .183,.183,guideFerrule47" .193,.198,.20050" .205,.206,.21055" .225,.228,.23560" .252,.252,.25665" .271,.271,.27370" .284,.285,.28775" .298,.298,.30678" .312,.314,.31679" .318,.320,.320Cork from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Sep 23 12:30:50 1999 Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:30:30 -0400 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/2 5 wt. Chris - Thank you for sharing these tapers. I wonder if you could give abrief description of what these rods are like to cast? -----Original Message----- From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL [SMTP:mcdowellc@lanecc.edu]Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 12:59 PM Subject: Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/2 5 wt. These measurements were taken from a Phillipson Peerless 7 1/2' 2/2 5 wt. Impregnated rod. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1" .066,.074,.072 .070,.070,.0725" .088,.088,.083 .085,.086,.08710" .103,.103,guide .109,.109,guide15" .126,.126,.127 .126,.126,.12920" .138,.139,.139 .138,.139,.14025" .143,.145,guide .146,.148,guide30" .159,.159,.160 .162,.165,.16535" .181,.182,.182 .177,.180,.18240" .184,.185,.188 .184,.185,.18643 1/4" .186,.187,guide .183,.183,guideFerrule47" .193,.198,.20050" .205,.206,.21055" .225,.228,.23560" .252,.252,.25665" .271,.271,.27370" .284,.285,.28775" .298,.298,.30678" .312,.314,.31679" .318,.320,.320Cork from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Sep 23 12:50:49 1999 11:02:28 PDT Subject: Casting the Phillipson, Powell, and Heddon It's been too long since I cast the Phillipson but it was definitely semi para or para in action and flexed fully with a medium action. I had this rod for a quick repair and didn't take any notes on lines or distances of cast. I can cast the Heddon tonight and give a report. I've cast many Heddons in various ferrule and length configurations, but can't remember anything remarkable about this length/ferrule taper. The EC Powell was mainly for anyone interested in that type of taper. I honestly wouldn't even know what weight lure to test it with. It seems pretty stout with most of the action in the top third of the rod. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 23 16:06:29 1999 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Why would plane manufacturers make low and standard angle blockplanes, if, asyou say, it does not matter the angle of the blade in the body? ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: Most higher angle planes put the bevel on the back side of the blade,blockplanes put the bevel on the front of the blade. What matters is not theangle at which the blade is set in the body of the plane, but the angle thecutting edge makes with the wood. I've settled on sharpening all mybladesto 45 degrees and use a 6 1/2 for roughing and a 9 1/2 for final planing.That equates to about a 57 degree angle for roughing and 66 degrees forfinal planing. -- just my $.02, Robert Kope-----Original Message-----From: Coopers Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 9:09 PMSubject: Plane Blade Angle Q Hello All... Newbie Bill here. Quik question regarding plane blade angles. As a crusty ol' woodworker, I realize that high blade angles (50*, ormore) are well intended if youplane "difficlult" woods such as curly/crotch figured hard woods. Ialso see that most everyone buildingrods uses a low angle block planes to work cane.Hmmm.The cane I practiced on (sacrificial culm) does seemvery difficult and tenacious with the block plane....Have any of you all tried a high angle plane on the cane yet?Any sucess in doing so, particularly in the area of the nodes?I've tried roughing cane with my block planes, my old Baileys, and evenan old rebate (which workedbeautifully-thick blade?).I realize that rodmakers have been using block style planes longer thanI've been alive,but I am just a little curious about this one aspect.ThanksBillp.s. I am making a 55* wooden plane right now, hopefully. I'll let yaall know if it's a total wash or a keeper. from teekay35@interlynx.net Thu Sep 23 16:43:24 1999 Subject: Re: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 8 1/2' 3/2 2f "E" would be a level 5 weight line ----------From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL Subject: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 8 1/2' 3/2 2f Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 12:48 PM These are the measurements taken from a Heddon 3/2 #17 Black Beautyin 8 1/2' length and a size 2f ferrule. Designated for line HDH or E whichis a 6DT and whatever "E" is. I subtracted .004" for varnish. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu 1" .0785" .09410" .10615" .12220" .13725" .14630" .159Ferrule36" .17440" .18945" .20450" .21755" .23060" .25065" .264Ferrule70" .28675" .29980" .31085" .324Swell begins at about 89" (.346)90" .395 from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 23 19:33:19 1999 Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:32:59 -0400 , Subject: Re: Silk boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF0602.6C2182E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF0602.6C2182E0 My engineering background tells me it must be inversely proportional to =the analog of the reciprocal coefficients.cheers, Bill-----Original Message----- From: Jerry Morton ; flytyr@southshore.com ; =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 4:22 PMSubject: Re: Silk But how does the modulus of elasticity of silk compare to that of =steel??? ----------From: Grhghlndr@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: SilkDate: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 11:35 AM Silk actually has a higher tensile strength than steel. As you =add wraps strength applied to that guide is very strong. You need not worry = breaking the silk from pressure applied on a guide. Take a strand =on and wrap it numerous times around your hands and see if you have =the yourself to break it, do as many wraps as you would do on a guide. = himself can not break this.Bret ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF0602.6C2182E0 My = background tells me it must be inversely proportional to the analog of = reciprocal coefficients. Bill -----Original = Jerry Morton <jerrymorton@email.msn.com&g= Grhghlndr@aol.com = flytyr@southshore.com = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= SilkBut how does the modulus of elasticity of = =HARMS1@prodigy.net; flytyr@southshore.com;rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Bret ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01BF0602.6C2182E0-- from KDLoup@aol.com Thu Sep 23 22:52:26 1999 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Q Terry,I suspect that there is an optimal angle for the bevel which will maximize it's durability and it's ability to remain sharp. Too shallow ofan angle weakens the edge leading to chipping. Different bed angles allowthe blade to be sharpened within the optimal range and achieve the planing characteristics desired. I'm not sure of an advantage for the bevel facing one way or the other. However, planes with the bevel backwards aretypically fitted with a chip breaker. Since the low angle planes do not have a chip breaker, maybe the bevel acts as a chip breaker. Kurt Loup from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Fri Sep 24 01:57:30 1999 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Silk boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF066A.EC8FA480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF066A.EC8FA480 -Bill wrote: My engineering background tells me it must be inversely proportional =to the analog of the reciprocal coefficients.cheers, BillBill Is this a quote from the new episode of Star Wars? :-) regards, Carsten ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF066A.EC8FA480 -Bill =wrote: background tells me it must be inversely proportional to the analog = reciprocal coefficients. Bill Bill Is this a quote from the new= Star Wars? :-) regards, Carsten ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF066A.EC8FA480-- from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Fri Sep 24 01:57:33 1999 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:57:30 +0200 Subject: Sv: Plane Blade Angle Q Terry wrote:- Why would plane manufacturers make low and standard angle blockplanes, if, asyou say, it does not matter the angle of the blade in the body? The answer is simple: to sell You two planes instaed of just one :-) regards, Carsten from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Sep 24 04:10:51 1999 Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:10:36 +0800 Subject: Re: Sv: Silk types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_310465==_.ALT" --=====================_310465==_.ALT :-))))))) Tony At 08:58 AM 9/24/99 +0200, scan.oest wrote: -Bill wrote: My engineering background tells me it must be inversely proportional totheanalog of the reciprocal coefficients. cheers, Bill Bill Is this a quote from the new episode of Star Wars? :-) regards, Carsten /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_310465==_.ALT :-))))))) Tony At 08:58 AM 9/24/99 +0200, scan.oest wrote: -Bill wrote:My engineering background tells me it must be inversely proportionalto the analog of the reciprocal coefficients.cheers, BillBill Is this a quote from the new episode of Star Wars?:-) regards, Carsten /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_310465==_.ALT-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Sep 24 10:39:28 1999 8:51:25 PDT Subject: RE: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 3/2 2f Seth, I cast the #17 last night with a 6DT Cortland 333 line on a 3 1/4" Perfect style J.W. Young reel, so it was a good balance to the 5 3/4 oz. weight of the rod. At 15' the rod was fast of course and the line would have been hitting the water pretty hard. Once it was out in the 40'-70' range the rod slowed down and loaded nicely. A medium action rod in this range. With a good haul and the right timing the rod will throw a lot of line, 75+', in a single cast, and that's pretty good considering the size 6? or so original stripper guide. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil Fri Sep 24 12:32:09 1999 1.redstone.army.mil RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 3/2 2f It would be interesting to re-accomplish the test using silk line andcomparethe results. Some of the big kids inform me that many of the older rodsperformed much better with silk, especially in the 3-4 wt arena. Anychancethat you might have a silk line Chris?????? -----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 11:30 AM Subject: RE: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 3/2 2f Seth, I cast the #17 last night with a 6DT Cortland 333 line on a 31/4" Perfect style J.W. Young reel, so it was a good balance to the 5 3/4 oz.weight of the rod. At 15' the rod was fast of course and the line wouldhave been hitting the water pretty hard. Once it was out in the 40'-70'range the rod slowed down and loaded nicely. A medium action rod in thisrange. With a good haul and the right timing the rod will throw a lotof line, 75+', in a single cast, and that's pretty good considering thesize 6? or so original stripper guide. Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Sep 24 12:36:25 1999 10:48:20 PDT Subject: RE: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 3/2 2f Ralph, I'll try out the silk this weekend with the #17 and let you know if it changes anything for me. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 24 12:37:51 1999 12:37:07 -0500 ix3.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Western Bamboo Rodmakers Gathering OCT 30-31 Anyone interested in attending the Western Bamboo Rodmakers gatheringinBishop, CA the weekend of Cot 30-31 should drop an email to Chuck atCAIrvinerods@AOL.com We are trying to get a count and organize the programs. Anyoneinterested in presenting or helping out should let Chuck know. It should be a fun weekend with great fishing on the Owens, Hot creek,Crowley, and the East Walker. from eestlow@srminc.com Fri Sep 24 12:54:55 1999 Subject: Re: Quad, Penta, and Hex comparison. 1999) at 09/24/9912:49:11 PM Darryl, First of all, thanks much for your continuing commentary on these rods.Most interesting, and I feel they reflect the true spirit of this list. You may have said once, but I can't remember. Did you match crosssectionalarea, or section modulus/ moment of inertia to generate the equivalentquadand penta taper dimensions? The performance differences you note dispellone of my theories about rods with equivalent section moduli giving frequency of the rod? Have you done any tests along these lines? Cyclespersecond of a rod flexed and then released, that sort of thing? Thanks in advance! Best regards,-Ed Estlow DNHayashi@aol.com owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Quad, Penta, and Hexcomparison. 09/23/99 11:12 AMPlease respond toDNHayashi I was finally able to go fishing for a day after starting a new joband having to get up to speed on the project I was assigned to. Thiswas my year of the lost fishing season. So I go to the river with a quiver of bamboo rods I made during thesummer. I had a 5 ft. one piece, a 7 ft. Sir D in a 3 piece quad, a7 ft. Sir D in a two piece penta, and of course my old stand by, thetwo piece Sir D in a hex. The 5 ft. one piece I just recently wrote about. Comparing the quad, penta and hex was interesting. The sir D hex hasbeen written about on this list many times before, so I won't go overit again. The quad I wrote about before, but it has a unique action.With short casts it feels wimpy. At 20 feet it feels like the rod won'tcast much line more than that 20 feet. At 30 feet something in the rodwakes up, at 40 feet I can still feel the rod has more to give, andsince I'm not that great of a caster 65 to 70 feet is all I can castthis rod. I think a good caster should be able to manage at least 80feet. The penta (finally finished it!) has a personality of it's own. It'sthe Sage RPL of bamboo rods. Sanding it presented problems - to sanda flat you have to balance it on the opposite apex. Difficult whenyou get close to the tip. The penta has a quick action all the waythrough. Nothing subtle about this rod, in fact I'm thinking of sandingin more of a Cattanach Hinge. Roll casting is a little bit of a challenge.A penta lets you know it's a distance caster from the start. 70 to 80foot casts were no problem for me, but short casts tended to slap theline into the water. Of course that can be taken care of with bettercasting technique, but I didn't have that problem with the other rods. Now remember this was the same taper in all three configurations. Allthe differences can be taken care of by adjusting the taper, but whywould anybody want to? Might as well take advantage of what eachconfiguration does. A quad and a penta has to be made thinner than a hex to handle the sameline weight. They will be lighter, but not by a lot. The quad is now my favorite rod, the penta I would take if wind ordistance would be a problem. The hex goes on the shelf. Darryl