from mschaffer@mindspring.com Fri Sep 24 14:05:55 1999 Subject: Care and feeding of a cane flyrod Well, I took the tomato stake to the water today and actually C & R'ed arainbow, 10" but still fun!Anyway, now that the rod has been 'christened' I could use some advice oncare after fishing. I realize that the rod should never be stored wet, sowhat I did was dry it off with a towel before putting it back in the bag andtube. Now that I'm back home I've got the pieces hanging up in the dryingbox to air dry further.The question is: is this the correct procedure or did I miss something? Andwhen I'm not at the house overnight, how should I air dry the rod--layingdown horizontal (ie..on a table to) or upright in a corner disassembled?Hope you guys don't mind the questions, but expiring minds want to know!!(G)Thanks, Mike from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Sep 24 14:42:20 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Bill,This is a late reply to your post on loop behavior vis-a-vis tip configuration. I have built 5 3wgt. forward , 71/2' rods with the tip starting @ .062",then at 5" .063, 10"-.083", 15" .100" then progressing at .014"/ 5" to .280" under the handle. The 3 I have sold have VERY happy owners. None of them throw tailing loops. Now, I have always thought thata concave profile rod taper would be terrible but I guess if its only in the tip we can get away with it. Just my $.02Regards,Hank. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Sep 24 17:45:33 1999 Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:45:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF06BC.8EF4F620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF06BC.8EF4F620 Hank, That's an interesting result from an unlikely scenario. I agree that a =concave profile at any point in a rod is generally a bad plan, but I =should have thought that nowhere would it have a greater adverse effect =than in the last 10-15 inches of the tip. Instead, I would have guessed =that if the concavity is only somewhere in the butt, we can "get away = If your customers are not getting tailing loops, that's great, but I =wonder what this same rod would feel like if you were to redesign the =last 20 inches or so to get rid of the concave profile. I'd bet you =would have a great deal more power to shoot line while still handling =short casts. Just a thought. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Bill, configuration. I have built 5 3wgt. forward , 71/2' rods with the = starting @ .062",then at 5" .063, 10"-.083", 15" .100" then = .014"/ 5" to .280" under the handle. The 3 I have sold have VERY = owners. None of them throw tailing loops. Now, I have always thought = concave profile rod taper would be terrible but I guess if its only = tip we can get away with it. Just my $.02Regards,Hank. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF06BC.8EF4F620 Hank, That's aninteresting = is generally a bad plan, but I should have thought that nowhere would it = I would have guessed that if the concavity is only somewhere in the = If your customersare = tailing loops, that's great, but I wonder what this same rod would feel = you were to redesign the last 20 inches or so to get rid of the = while still handling short casts. Just a thought. Bill -----Original = FISHWOOL@aol.com = RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu=<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, September 24, 1999 12:42 PMSubject: Re: Rodtaper = theories configuration. I have built 5 3wgt. forward , 71/2' rods with = starting @ .062",then at 5" .063, 10"-.083", = .280" under the handle. The 3 I have sold have VERY happy = concave profile rod taper would be terrible but I guess if its = Hank. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF06BC.8EF4F620-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Fri Sep 24 17:57:06 1999 16:09:08 PDT Subject: Double Postings Is anyone else getting double postings from several of the members of Rodmakers? Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Canerods@aol.com Fri Sep 24 17:59:39 1999 Subject: Re: Care and feeding of a cane flyrod When it's dry, wax it. Don Burns from saltwein@swbell.net Fri Sep 24 18:16:13 1999 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7)with ESMTP id for Subject: Cork Didn't seem to be much interest at 1.30. (I don't like the pricemyself). Has anyone bought cork from C&D? How would you describe theirtop grade? Regards, Steve from rmoon@ida.net Fri Sep 24 19:31:30 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but for what itis worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I think successfully) aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have had commentsranging from "No damned good" to "Wow!!! That's tremendous. My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long distance casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that less power inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the point on indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individual factor. Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will never feelcomportable with it. Others may feel the rhythm, but dislike it, andother slip it on like a glove. It does not mean that particular taperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS to all those who may have wished me well during my recent trials andtribulations. I may have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving. I finallyended up with a 5 way bypass. I am home and although still sore andweak, I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Sep 24 19:57:00 1999 RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Sv: Plane Blade Angle Q That is a stupid remark. Perhaps a re-read of Newbie Bill's posting wouldbe inorder.The best rod makers in the world somehow seem very lacking in theunderstanding ofthe cutting geometry of their most important tool. Very strange. Terry "scan.oest" wrote: Terry wrote:- Why would plane manufacturers make low and standard angle blockplanes, if, asyou say, it does not matter the angle of the blade in the body? The answer is simple: to sell You two planes instaed of just one :-) regards, Carsten from bruno@linkline.com Fri Sep 24 21:15:19 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id AF9626701EA; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:12:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Plane Blade Angle Thank You Tony Young wrote: snip based on a Japaneese plane but made so the iron could be reversed in aslotopposite the one used for planing for scraping splines. snip Tony Funny you should mention that...I'm grinding the blade on my 55* plane to35* : ) Bill from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sat Sep 25 01:36:30 1999 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Sv: Sv: Plane Blade Angle Q Terry from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Sep 25 07:29:55 1999 Sat, 25 Sep 1999 08:29:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Double Postings boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF072F.B85811A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF072F.B85811A0 Yeah, Whut up?-----Original Message-----From: CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 4:12 PMSubject: Double Postings Is anyone else getting double postings from several of the members = Rodmakers? Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF072F.B85811A0 up? -----Original = RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= PostingsIs anyone else getting double postings = several of the members of Rodmakers?ChrisMcDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF072F.B85811A0-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Sep 25 08:08:00 1999 Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:07:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF0735.086BB200" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF0735.086BB200 Ralph, Thanks so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct about tapers, =casting properties and "the individual factor." This latter issue is =usually neglected or ignored by us because there is little of applicable =use that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, "the =individual factor" may turn out to be one of the most important issues =in the whole equation. As you know, we try to design rods to their own =optimum performance ability, assuming "all other factors being equal." =But, as far as the individual casting factor is concerned, there is no ="equality" at all (and, importantly, the big differences are not even =those between "good" and "poor" casters). As to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar), my =guess would have predicted pretty much what you described--a rod that =does not handle distance well, but kicks out tight loops at close = as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seen the rod's =specs, of course, but I should think that concavity in the middle of the =rod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect right =where power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from the =stronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm not =surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded for =distance-casting. "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's innate =sense of muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is = Just a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) engineering =background. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but for what =itis worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I think =successfully) aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have had =commentsranging from "No damned good" to "Wow!!! That's tremendous. My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long distance =casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that less power =inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the point on indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individual factor. =Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will never feelcomportable with it. Others may feel the rhythm, but dislike it, =andother slip it on like a glove. It does not mean that particular =taperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS to all those who may have wished me well during my recent trials =andtribulations. I may have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving. I finallyended up with a 5 way bypass. I am home and although still sore andweak, I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF0735.086BB200 Ralph, or ignored by us because there is little of applicable use that we = turn out to be one of the most important issues in the whole = you know, we try to design rods to their own optimum performance = individual casting factor is concerned, there is no "equality" = "good" and "poor" casters). As to the = Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar), my guess would have = pretty much what you described--a rod that does not handle distance = kicks out tight loops at close range--that is, as we say,"all = I should think that concavity in the middle of the rod's taper, if it = significant, would create a hinge effect right where power would be = effect a smooth transition from the stronger butt section to the finer = rodseems = "fall apart" when loaded for =distance-casting. fishing, = caster is probably depending upon either the butt section or the tip = "do the rod's= (that is, depending upon the individual's innate sense of = rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is never quite able to work in = Just a theoretical= upon my vast (yeah, right) engineeringbackground. Bill -----Original = RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu=<RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, September 24, 1999 5:33 PMSubject: Re: Rod theories be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but for what = aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of = that concept, and I have had commentsranging from "No = ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long = casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that = power inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow.One thing = think a lot of guys are missing the point on indiscussing tapers = cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will never feelcomportable = have wished me well during my recent trials = have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail tothank all of you = weeks.Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF0735.086BB200-- from dpeaston@wzrd.com Sat Sep 25 09:08:38 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories At 09:04 AM 9/25/1999 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Comic Sans MSRalph, 0000,0000,8080 Comic Sans MSThankssomuch for the input. I'm sure you are correct about tapers, castingproperties and "the individual factor." This latter issue is usuallyneglected or ignored by us because there is little of applicable use thatwe really can say about it. Ironically, however, "the individual factor"may turn out to be one of the most important issues in the wholeequation. As you know, we try to design rods to their own optimumperformance ability, assuming "all other factors being equal." But, asfar as the individual casting factor is concerned, there is no "equality"at all (and, importantly, the big differences are not even those between"good" and "poor" casters). 0000,0000,8080 Comic Sans MSAs to the"CastleConnel Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar), my guess would havepredicted pretty much what you described--a rod that does not handledistance well, but kicks out tight loops at close range--that is, as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seen the rod'sspecs, of course, but I should think that concavity in the middle of therod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect rightwhere power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from thestronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm notsurprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded fordistance-casting. Comic Sans MSFor closerfishing, however, the caster is probably depending upon either the buttsection or the tip section to "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's innatesense of muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod isnever quite able to work in concert with itself. Comic Sans MSJust atheoreticalguess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) engineering background. Comic Sans MScheers, Bill 0000,0000,8080 Bill et al, 0000,0000,8080I am a bitconfused. Are we talking about avoiding the dread tailing loop or theopen loop? In my hands most rods give a fairly nice tight loop up toabout 30 ft. That is, as long as I don't make the common mistakes thatcause the loop to tail. For me the big distance robbing effect is thewidening of the loop as the amount of line increases beyond about 30 ft.Timing becomes critical and one does not want to force the rod intoexcessive deep bending. I would think that concavity near the middle ofthe rod would cause this sort of problem. I have two rods that behave inthis manner and I find that they are both very sensitive to the type ofline I use. Both of them work better with a triangle taper. This makesense to me since the mass of the line in the air increases very littleafter you get to the running line and the turnover of the front taper isvery smooth. I am a confirmed paraholic. The reason I like that sort of rod is that Iseem to be able to keep the loop tight at longer distances even at firlylow line speeds. I an not quite certain how that works but it works forme. I suspect that the Castle Connel Kick is a similar phenomenon. Regards, -Doug from TSmithwick@aol.com Sat Sep 25 09:50:59 1999 Subject: Re Hex v Penta v Quad In a message dated 9/24/99 5:58:04 PM, you wrote: Ed - You and Darryl have raised an issue worthy of long discussion. IMHOyou are correct in saying that using the section modulus numbers to convert from one geometry to another will get you closest in terms of overall rod performance, but not necessarily in terms of initial "feel" . I believe, however, that the modulus numbers are mathematical constructs thatassume a uniform cross section. Obviously, we don't have that in a cane rod. Thereare also arguments on the effect of the natural curvature of the cane on the finished section. Lots of other arguments too. In other words, it ain't so simple.I think the best way to go with a quad or penta is to build a rod based on the mathematical conversion either by area or by modulus, and use that asthe basis for future modification. I agree with Darryl that there is not much point in trying to get one geometry to cast like another, they each have their own feel, and will have their own fans based on casting/fishingstyle. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Sep 25 09:58:19 1999 Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:58:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF0744.6DCBB320" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF0744.6DCBB320 Doug, Actually, as I was responding to Ralph's recent email concerning the =Castle Connel Kick Taper, I wasn't really considering "loop-phenomenon" =at all (though Ralph did describe his resulting loop). I was only =speculating upon the likely effects of concavity in the middle area of a = It is true, of course, that the tailing loop is not the same as the open =loop, although both the rod and the caster might be responsible for =either. One doesn't want a tailing loop under any circumstances, I =shouldn't think, but if the rod is at fault, there's probably little one =can do about it. My guess has been that a rod designed with any =significant concavity along its length (but especially near the tip) =runs the risk of not being capable of holding the loop open at all (or =we might say, of holding the leader "up" when it needs to turn over). I =think that the final foot or so of a tip is largely responsible for =transmitting that last little bit of "kick" required to shoot the leader =into a clean turn-over (both on the final back-cast, and on the power =stroke). And a tip whose taper is concave near its end, may not be =capable of providing this effect. That said, however, there are still a =great number of other factors that enter in to any given rod's ability =to perform. And, too, we still have not considered the individual =caster's style of casting--the great "fudge-factor." The "open loop" is a different issue, however, and is used to great =advantage under certain circumstances. Somewhat slower castingrhythms =can create the open loop, but so can a "softer" rod taper--if that's is =one's preference. So, apart from my need to clarify what I had in mind, Doug, I can't see =that you are confused at all. I might add, too, that my own casting =ability seems to result in limitations similar to what you typically =experience. My rods wouldn't seem to be "at fault" in their capacity to =perform at longer distances, since all my friends can lay out 20% to 30% =more line with my rods than I can. So, there's that individual =casting-rhythm bugaboo again... cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Douglas P. Easton Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com ; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Saturday, September 25, 1999 7:09 AMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories At 09:04 AM 9/25/1999 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Ralph, Thanks so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct about =tapers, casting properties and "the individual factor." This latter =issue is usually neglected or ignored by us because there is little of =applicable use that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, ="the individual factor" may turn out to be one of the most important =issues in the whole equation. As you know, we try to design rods to =their own optimum performance ability, assuming "all other factors being=equal." But, as far as the individual casting factor is concerned, there =is no "equality" at all (and, importantly, the big differences are not =even those between "good" and "poor" casters). As to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not =familiar), my guess would have predicted pretty much what you =described--a rod that does not handle distance well, but kicks out tight = as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seen the =rod's specs, of course, but I should think that concavity in the middle =of the rod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect =right where power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from =the stronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm =not surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded for =distance-casting. "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's =innate sense of muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire = Just a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) =engineering background. cheers, Bill Bill et al, I am a bit confused. Are we talking about avoiding the dread tailing =loop or the open loop? In my hands most rods give a fairly nice tight =loop up to about 30 ft. That is, as long as I don't make the common =mistakes that cause the loop to tail. For me the big distance robbing =effect is the widening of the loop as the amount of line increases =beyond about 30 ft. Timing becomes critical and one does not want to =force the rod into excessive deep bending. I would think that concavity =near the middle of the rod would cause this sort of problem. I have two =rods that behave in this manner and I find that they are both very =sensitive to the type of line I use. Both of them work better with a =triangle taper. This make sense to me since the mass of the line in the =air increases very little after you get to the running line and the =turnover of the front taper is very smooth. I am a confirmed paraholic. The reason I like that sort of rod is =that I seem to be able to keep the loop tight at longer distances even =at firly low line speeds. I an not quite certain how that works but it =works for me. I suspect that the Castle Connel Kick is a similar =phenomenon. Regards,-Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF0744.6DCBB320 Doug, Actually, as I was= Ralph's recent email concerning the Castle Connel Kick Taper, I wasn't = considering "loop-phenomenon" at all (though Ralph did = ofcourse, = tailing loop is not the same as the open loop, although both the rod and = under any circumstances, I shouldn't think, but if the rod is at fault, = with any significant concavity along its length (but especially near the = runs the risk of not being capable of holding the loop open at all (or = say, of holding the leader "up" when it needs to turn = think that the final foot or so of a tip is largely responsible for = that last little bit of "kick" required to shoot the leader = clean turn-over (both on the final back-cast, and on the power = And a tip whose taper is concave near its end, may not be capable of = still have not considered the individual caster's style of casting--the = "fudge-factor." The "open = open = preference. So, apart from my= what I had in mind, Doug, I can't see that you are confused at = might add, too, that my own casting ability seems to result in = = "at fault" in their capacity to perform at longer distances, = my friends can lay out 20% to 30% more line with my rods than I = there's that individual casting-rhythm bugaboo =again... Bill -----Original = HARMS1@prodigy.net Ralph = = =RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Saturday, September 25, 1999 7:09 AMSubject: Re: Rod= theoriesAt 09:04 AM 9/25/1999 -0700,WILLIAM A = so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct about tapers, = properties and "the individual factor." This latter = usually neglected or ignored by us because there is little of = use that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, = individual factor" may turn out to be one of the most = issues in the whole equation. As you know, we try to design rods = their own optimum performance ability, assuming "all other = being equal." But, as far as the individual casting factor = concerned, there is no "equality" at all (and, = the big differences are not even those between "good" = to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not = described--a rod that does not handle distance well, but kicks = loops at close range--that is, as we say, "all other = being equal." I haven't seen the rod's specs, of course, = should think that concavity in the middle of the rod's taper, if = significant, would create a hinge effect right where power would = needed (to effect a smooth transition from the stronger butt = the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm not surprised to hear = =distance- closer fishing, however, the caster is probably depending upon = the butt section or the tip section to "do the rod's = muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is = able to work in concert with itself. = a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) = = et al,I = confused. Are we talking about avoiding the dread tailing loop or = loop? In my hands most rods give a fairly nice tight loop up to = That is, as long as I don't make the common mistakes that cause the = tail. For me the big distance robbing effect is the widening of the = the amount of line increases beyond about 30 ft. Timing becomes = one does not want to force the rod into excessive deep bending. I = think that concavity near the middle of the rod would cause this = problem. I have two rods that behave in this manner and I find that = both very sensitive to the type of line I use. Both of them work = a triangle taper. This make sense to me since the mass of the line = air increases very little after you get to the running line and the = of the front taper is very smooth.I am a confirmed = reason I like that sort of rod is that I seem to be able to keep the = tight at longer distances even at firly low line speeds. I an not = certain how that works but it works for me. I suspect that the = phenomenon.Regards,-Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BF0744.6DCBB320-- from stpete@netten.net Sat Sep 25 11:06:18 1999 Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:08:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Plane Blade Angle Q I am glad Carsten has a sense of humor and I am relieved to see that hehas a sense of proportion and level headedness about him that makes thisforum work. This is not a place for those who are thin-skinned or whohave poor sense of self-confidence. Again, perhaps this is a good time to remind people that not all of whatis said should be taken literally. This mode of communication doesn'teffectively show the intentions of the author nor the context in whichsome statements are meant to be communicated. It's best to give theauthor the benefit of the doubt. Additionally, much is learned fromthose who venture forth with new ideas and extreme comments. There isalways a better way and there may be an inadequate understanding of whatis currently accepted. Perhaps we could remember one simple rule, though: Good manners arenever out of line or unwelcome. Let's think a little bit before we makeremarks which have little to do with what we really want to say. Thanks for listening,Rick C. Terry - it's called having a sense of humour. You Should try aquiring one,would makeyour daysmore pleasant. As for mentioning me amongst "the best rodmakers in theworld" isratheroverdoing it. I am flattered, though. It IS a strange world. regards, Carsten from anglport@con2.com Sat Sep 25 11:14:16 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4AA4F60166; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:13:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Re Hex v Penta v Quad Tom and Darrell, I think the only reason one would have for converting would be if hehadonly one type of form and desired the action of another geometry.Nowadays,there seem to be fewer of us who are bound by this restriction (though Iamcertainly one of them). I would dearly like to be able to create some ofBill Fink's quads on my hex forms!BTW Tom, and you can answer off-list, why aren't you at the LL? Iwasgoing to bring that Lambuth form to have you look at it. If I hadn't gottensick, I'd be standing around asking, "Where's Tom?" *G*. Hope the guys arehaving fun. A friend just called and said the Floyd waters ran ABOVE therocks at top of the Kiddie Pool (!) and the stream is chock-a-block withhuge fish (probably from the hatchery being overrun).See ya,Art At 10:50 AM 09/25/1999 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/24/99 5:58:04 PM, you wrote: one of my theories about rods with equivalent section moduli giving Ed - You and Darryl have raised an issue worthy of long discussion. IMHOyou are correct in saying that using the section modulus numbers to convert from one geometry to another will get you closest in terms of overall rod performance, but not necessarily in terms of initial "feel" . I believe, however, that the modulus numbers are mathematical constructs thatassume a uniform cross section. Obviously, we don't have that in a cane rod. Thereare also arguments on the effect of the natural curvature of the cane on the finished section. Lots of other arguments too. In other words, it ain't so simple.I think the best way to go with a quad or penta is to build a rod based on the mathematical conversion either by area or by modulus, and use thatasthe basis for future modification. I agree with Darryl that there is not much point in trying to get one geometry to cast like another, they each have their own feel, and will have their own fans based on casting/fishingstyle. from darrelll@earthlink.net Sat Sep 25 12:21:21 1999 Subject: Re: Re Hex v Penta v Quad Hi Art, Nice to meet you at the gathering in PA... but you are perhaps confusing mewith the other Darryl's who have been chatting on this thread... my otherbrother's.... groan... hey, everyone does it to me so turnabout is fairplay... BTW I just got home yesterday after 2 1/2 weeks on the east coast... I hadagrand time... spend a few grand too on some rods at Brimfields... Good to beback... now to attend to my laundry and other pressing matters... Hey, manyEast Coast drivers are WORSE than us Californians!!! I didn't think that waspossible... I was cut off a few times by nice looking elderly grandmothersand was in too much shock to get upset... I don't often see 90 year oldsdriving like Mario Andretti... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Re Hex v Penta v Quad Tom and Darrell,I think the only reason one would have for converting would be if he hadonly one type of form and desired the action of another geometry.Nowadays,there seem to be fewer of us who are bound by this restriction (though Iamcertainly one of them). I would dearly like to be able to create some ofBill Fink's quads on my hex forms!BTW Tom, and you can answer off-list, why aren't you at the LL? I wasgoing to bring that Lambuth form to have you look at it. If I hadn't gottensick, I'd be standing around asking, "Where's Tom?" *G*. Hope the guys arehaving fun. A friend just called and said the Floyd waters ran ABOVE therocks at top of the Kiddie Pool (!) and the stream is chock-a-block withhuge fish (probably from the hatchery being overrun).See ya,Art At 10:50 AM 09/25/1999 EDT, TSmithwick@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/24/99 5:58:04 PM, you wrote: one of my theories about rods with equivalent section moduli giving Ed - You and Darryl have raised an issue worthy of long discussion. IMHOyouare correct in saying that using the section modulus numbers to convertfromone geometry to another will get you closest in terms of overall rodperformance, but not necessarily in terms of initial "feel" . I believe,however, that the modulus numbers are mathematical constructs thatassumeauniform cross section. Obviously, we don't have that in a cane rod. Therearealso arguments on the effect of the natural curvature of the cane on thefinished section. Lots of other arguments too. In other words, it ain't sosimple.I think the best way to go with a quad or penta is to build a rod based onthe mathematical conversion either by area or by modulus, and use thatasthebasis for future modification. I agree with Darryl that there is not muchpoint in trying to get one geometry to cast like another, they each havetheir own feel, and will have their own fans based on casting/fishingstyle. from DNHayashi@aol.com Sat Sep 25 12:35:52 1999 Subject: Making a Quad or Penta I have been inundated with questions about making a quad or penta rod.Basically you need two forms since the spline is not an equilateraltriangle.You plane one side of the spline on one form, and the other side on theother form. Since a quad has 90 deg. corners and the glue line goesfromcorner to corner, the angle between the enamel side and the planed side is 45 degrees. It is impossible to make a form that willplane 45 degrees one way and flip the spline over to plane the other side.The same holds true for penta rods, only the angle is 36 degrees betweenthe enamel and planed side. If anybody is wondering how I do it, I've got a Morgan hand mill, and all Ido to change from making a hex or penta or quad is change a cutterassembly. Takes less than a minute, and before I get the emails forthat, it costs around $2000 depending on what accessories you get. Darryl (not Darrell) from DNHayashi@aol.com Sat Sep 25 12:42:53 1999 Subject: Re: Double Postings Is anyone else getting double postings from several of the members of Rodmakers? Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu You are getting double postings because the Listmeister set an optionso that you have to click on Reply All to get the List in the return address.If you click on just Reply it goes to the originator only. When you clickon Reply All everyone who had participated in the thread gets a copy,and it also goes to the List, and you get that one too. Darryl from brookside.rod@juno.com Sat Sep 25 12:48:58 1999 13:48:46 EDT Subject: Care and feeding of a cane fly rod article Mike; I while back I wrote a short article which discussed cane rod care. Youcould find a copy on my site athttp://home.onestop.net/brookside/usecare.htm . Good luck! Gary On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:14:08 -0400 "Mike Shaffer"writes: Well, I took the tomato stake to the water today and actually C & R'eda rainbow, 10" but still fun! .............>Hope you guys don't mindthe questions, but expiring minds want to >know!!>(G) Thanks, Mike ___________________________________________________________________Get the Internet just the way you want it.Free software, free e- mail, and free Internet access for a month!Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. from rmoon@ida.net Sat Sep 25 12:52:37 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Double Postings Thanks Sir DRalph from hartzell@easystreet.com Sat Sep 25 13:10:19 1999 Subject: Wax Don Burns suggested waxing rods after drying in order to protect them.My experience indicates that wax is extremely hard to get rid of andgives the restorer many headaches. Johnson's PRIDE is the main culpritsince it is full of silocones. It is best to dry the rod (and case andbag) and put it all back in the closet without adding any waxes or otherfinishes. The wax won't keep the rod from gaining moisture content ifyou live in a humid environment.. Ed Hartzell from DNHayashi@aol.com Sat Sep 25 13:29:38 1999 Subject: Re: Wax In a message dated 9/25/99 11:11:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hartzell@easystreet.com writes: Don Burns suggested waxing rods after drying in order to protect them.My experience indicates that wax is extremely hard to get rid of andgives the restorer many headaches. Johnson's PRIDE is the main culpritsince it is full of silocones. It is best to dry the rod (and case andbag) and put it all back in the closet without adding any waxes or otherfinishes. The wax won't keep the rod from gaining moisture content ifyou live in a humid environment.. If you use a high quality carnuba wax, the fish slime, water spots, etc.practically slide right off. The wax does the same thing for your rod as it does for your car. Would you tell people not to wax their car because someone in the future might try and restore it and the wax will interfere with a repaint?I wax all my rods.Darryl from CAdams46@compuserve.com Sat Sep 25 13:57:25 1999 Subject: Splices Just thought I'd say thanks to whoever posted using a sharp wood chisel razer sharp chisel and that really makes short work of cutting splices. Ithink I spliced up about 4 sections last night in half the time. Turnedout to be some darn near invisible splices.Sincerely,C.R. Adams from anglport@con2.com Sat Sep 25 17:48:20 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A109E7101B0; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:47:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Double Postings Darryl,Is it really everone in the thread? I thought it was only the one youclicked to respond to and the list in general.Art At 01:42 PM 09/25/1999 EDT, DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: Is anyone else getting double postings from several of the membersof Rodmakers? Chris McDowellmcdowellc@lanecc.edu You are getting double postings because the Listmeister set an optionso that you have to click on Reply All to get the List in the returnaddress.If you click on just Reply it goes to the originator only. When you clickon Reply All everyone who had participated in the thread gets a copy,and it also goes to the List, and you get that one too. Darryl from DNHayashi@aol.com Sun Sep 26 00:55:08 1999 Subject: Re: Double Postings In a message dated 9/25/99 3:48:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, anglport@con2.com writes: Darryl,Is it really everone in the thread? I thought it was only the one youclicked to respond to and the list in general.Art out and just leave the Rodmakers address.Darryl from DNHayashi@aol.com Sun Sep 26 00:59:48 1999 Subject: Re: Wax Okay, don't wax your rods, or your cars. Makes no difference to me.I'll continue to do what I do because I get good results. Darryl from dmanders@telusplanet.net Sun Sep 26 07:36:51 1999 don") bysmtp2.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Sep 199906:38:38 - 0600 Subject: Re: Wax At 02:29 PM 9/25/99 EDT, DNHayashi@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 9/25/99 11:11:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hartzell@easystreet.com writes: Don Burns suggested waxing rods after drying in order to protect them.My experience indicates that wax is extremely hard to get rid of andgives the restorer many headaches. Johnson's PRIDE is the main culpritsince it is full of silocones. It is best to dry the rod (and case andbag) and put it all back in the closet without adding any waxes or otherfinishes. The wax won't keep the rod from gaining moisture content ifyou live in a humid environment.. If you use a high quality carnuba wax, the fish slime, water spots, etc.practically slide right off. The wax does the same thing for your rod as it does for your car. Would you tell people not to wax their car because someone in the future might try and restore it and the wax will interfere with a repaint?I wax all my rods.Darryl Darryl, Waxes with silicones can and do get into cracks and openings in the rodfinish making the recoating of a rod near impossible. Listen to what Edsaid and chose your coatings with care. Don from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 08:02:25 1999 Subject: Bastard Tapers Hi, Last night George Gehrke posted one of his tapers onrec.outdoors.fishing.fly DO NOT OPEN THE FILE. It is a MS Word Document and is packed with Macros. I was lazy and didn'tscan it first. I'll extract the data and send it out later as a plain oldvanilla text file. Probably tonight after I restore my system. Paul from leroyt@involved.com Sun Sep 26 08:38:15 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61049U4500L450S0V35)with SMTP id com; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 06:36:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Wax boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF07EA.9FAB2B40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF07EA.9FAB2B40 Wax, Used to paint cars and we had the same problem that Ed talked =about, silicones craters. We got around the problem by washing the =surface with soap and water, a pre-paint wash thinner, sanding the =surface, and again with the prepaint wash the thinner before painting.If you take a wall through an automotive paint store you will find that =most of the polishes that are used today are what they call paintable, =in other words you can use these and paint over the top of them with out =any adverse effect.Leroy........ ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF07EA.9FAB2B40 =FF=FE=00==0D=00=0A==00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00W=00a=00x=00,=00=00U=00s=00e=00d=00 ==00t=00o=00 =00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00 =00c=00a=00r=00s=00=00a=00n=00d=00 ==00w=00e=00 =00h=00a=00d=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00s=00a=00m=00e=00 =00p=00r=00o=00b=00l=00e=00m=00=00t=00h=00a=00t=00 ==00E=00d=00 =00t=00a=00l=00k=00e=00d=00=00a=00b=00o=00u=00t=00,=00 ==00s=00i=00l=00i=00c=00o=00n=00e=00s=00 ==00c=00r=00a=00t=00e=00r=00s=00.=00 =00W=00e=00 =00g=00o=00t=00==00a=00r=00o=00u=00n=00d=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00p=00r=00o=00b=00l=00e=00m=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00b=00y=00 =00w=00a=00s=00h=00i=00n=00g=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00s=00u=00r=00f=00a=00c=00e=00 =00w=00i=00t=00h=00=00s=00o=00a=00p=00 ==00a=00n=00d=00 =00w=00a=00t=00e=00r=00,=00 =00a=00 ==00p=00r=00e=00- =00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00 =00w=00a=00s=00h=00 ==00t=00h=00i=00n=00n=00e=00r=00,=00=00s=00a=00n=00d=00i=00n=00g=00 ==00=0D=00=0A==00t=00h=00e=00 =00s=00u=00r=00f=00a=00c=00e=00,=00=00a=00n=00d=00 ==00a=00g=00a=00i=00n=00 =00w=00i=00t=00h=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00p=00r=00e=00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00 ==00w=00a=00s=00h=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00t=00h=00i=00n=00n=00e=00r=00 =00b=00e=00f=00o=00r=00e=00=00=0D=00=0A==00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00i=00n=00g=00.=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00I=00f=00 =00y=00o=00u=00 ==00t=00a=00k=00e=00 =00a=00 =00w=00a=00l=00l=00 ==00t=00h=00r=00o=00u=00g=00h=00 =00a=00n=00 ==00a=00u=00t=00o=00m=00o=00t=00i=00v=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00 =00s=00t=00o=00r=00e=00 =00y=00o=00u=00==00w=00i=00l=00l=00 =00f=00i=00n=00d=00 =00t=00h=00a=00t=00 ==00m=00o=00s=00t=00 =00o=00f=00 =00t=00h=00e=00 ==00p=00o=00l=00i=00s=00h=00e=00s=00&=00n=00b=00s=00p=00;=00t=00h=00a=00t=00==00a=00r=00e=00 =00u=00s=00e=00d=00 =00t=00o=00d=00a=00y=00 ==00a=00r=00e=00 =00=0D=00=0A==00w=00h=00a=00t=00 =00t=00h=00e=00y=00 =00c=00a=00l=00l=00 ==00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00a=00b=00l=00e=00,=00 =00i=00n=00 ==00o=00t=00h=00e=00r=00 =00w=00o=00r=00d=00s=00 =00y=00o=00u=00==00c=00a=00n=00 =00u=00s=00e=00 =00t=00h=00e=00s=00e=00=00a=00n=00d=00 ==00p=00a=00i=00n=00t=00 =00o=00v=00e=00r=00 =00t=00h=00e=00=00=0D=00=0A==00t=00o=00p=00 =00o=00f=00 =00t=00h=00e=00m=00=00w=00i=00t=00h=00 ==00o=00u=00t=00 =00a=00n=00y=00 =00a=00d=00v=00e=00r=00s=00e=00==00e=00f=00f=00e=00c=00t=00.=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00=00=00L=00e=00r=00o=00y=00.=00.=00.=00.=00.=00=.=00.=00.=00=00=00=00=00=0D=00=0A==00------ =_NextPart_000_0025_01BF07EA.9FAB2B40-- from mschaffer@mindspring.com Sun Sep 26 08:48:36 1999 Subject: Propane torch for flaming Since a number of you guys have mentioned that I did my first rod the hardway (blond), well, I've decided to give flamed cane a shot. On Waynementions using a specific torch, I was wondering if the torch sold byharborfreight for melting ice off the sidewalks would work The ad mentions atrigger for max. temps over 4500 degrees F, 6' 8 1/2" hose, etc. If anyonehas used this I would appreciate a buzz back, since I only haveoxy- acetylene torches in the shop, although my forge is propane, so I canrig up a propane torch.Thanks again, as usual---now off to the water!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from Canerods@aol.com Sun Sep 26 09:17:58 1999 Subject: Re: Wax All, Good grief! I answered a fellow's question about how to maintain his rodand WWIII breaks out. I should have included that I use "Citrus Shield" wax that I buy at Home Depot - NO silicones! It's used to protect antique furniture. Don Burns from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Sep 26 11:42:51 1999 Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Plane Blade Angle Q I did not know the remark was supposed to be humorous, I knew it to beerroneous. Theangle of 'attack' of a plane is quite important. You may not find itso in rodmaking where only a fraction of the blade is is cutting but acabinet maker orcarpenter who uses the whole blade width would.The best rodmakers was a generalization. I have read countless times onthe list thatthe best rods ever are being produced today.Just trying to keep it honest!Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry Terry - it's called having a sense of humour. You Should try aquiring one,would makeyour daysmore pleasant. As for mentioning me amongst "the best rodmakers in theworld" isratheroverdoing it. I am flattered, though. It IS a strange world. regards, Carsten from DNHayashi@aol.com Sun Sep 26 12:52:12 1999 Subject: Re: Wax The only problem is that if you are using a plastic fly line - ie. not silk,and you care for your line as the directions say, you are getting silicone all over your rod every time you cast. All the flyline dressings I know ofhave silicone in them. Darryl from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sun Sep 26 12:58:03 1999 Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:57:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Propane torch for flaming boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF0826.B34CD680" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF0826.B34CD680 Mike, Well, I don't know about the other fellows, but I just use my cheep-o =propane torch from Home Depot. It has a sort of fan-shaped attachment = away, making a sort of barber-pole pattern darker than the rest of the =surface. I don't know that you need to get very fancy with the =equipment--instead, just concentrate on technique. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: michael w. shaffer Date: Sunday, September 26, 1999 6:55 AMSubject: Propane torch for flaming Since a number of you guys have mentioned that I did my first rod =the hardway (blond), well, I've decided to give flamed cane a shot. On Waynementions using a specific torch, I was wondering if the torch sold = freight for melting ice off the sidewalks would work The ad =mentions atrigger for max. temps over 4500 degrees F, 6' 8 1/2" hose, etc. If =anyonehas used this I would appreciate a buzz back, since I only haveoxy- acetylene torches in the shop, although my forge is propane, so =I canrig up a propane torch.Thanks again, as usual---now off to the water!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF0826.B34CD680 Mike, Well, I don't know= other fellows, but I just use my cheep-o propane torch from Home = has a sort of fan-shaped attachment for the flame, and seems to to a = technique. Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sunday, September 26, 1999 6:55 AMSubject: Propane = flamingSince a number of you guys have = did my first rod the hardway (blond), well, I've decided to give = cane a shot. On Waynementions using a specific torch, I was = the torch sold by harborfreight for melting ice off the = 6' 8 1/2" hose, etc. If anyonehas used this I would = buzz back, since I only haveoxy-acetylene torches in the shop, = my forge is propane, so I canrig up a propane torch.Thanks = Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF0826.B34CD680-- from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Sep 26 13:38:46 1999 Subject: Re: RE: Heddon #17 Black Beauty 3/2 2f RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu List,I have a 9' #17 if anyone wants the taper. Throws a 5 weight real nice. I use it for nymphing.Bret from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Sep 26 13:49:19 1999 Subject: Re: Wax List,I have waxed my rods for over 30+ years now and I have refinished some of these in the interim. Never had a problem with fisheye because of wax. The best wax you ask, good old butchers wax.Bret from mrj@aa.net Sun Sep 26 14:00:31 1999 Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:00:26 -0700 Subject: RE: Bastard Tapers Are you saying that the file contained a virus? Or just Macros. I'mwondering why you would need a lot of macros in a posting of a rod taper.You should have an option to open up the file with macros disabled. If notyou can set Word for this option. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Bastard Tapers Hi, Last night George Gehrke posted one of his tapers onrec.outdoors.fishing.fly DO NOT OPEN THE FILE. It is a MS Word Document and is packed with Macros. I was lazy and didn'tscan it first. I'll extract the data and send it out later as a plain oldvanilla text file. Probably tonight after I restore my system. Paul from mrj@aa.net Sun Sep 26 14:05:35 1999 Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:05:31 -0700 Subject: RE: Propane torch for flaming I made a torch head by punching out the ball in a zerk fitting. I connect itto a propane tank and it works really well. I could probably scan thepictures of it if you are interested. I used a Oxe-acetylene torch with a"rosebud" attachment before I made me propane torch head. It works but itwas really touchy. I think that it is too hot. It was too easy to reallyburn the bamboo. It worked fine after I got used to it, but the propanesetup is a lot easier to work with. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- shaffer Subject: Propane torch for flaming Since a number of you guys have mentioned that I did my first rod the hardway (blond), well, I've decided to give flamed cane a shot. On Waynementions using a specific torch, I was wondering if the torch sold byharborfreight for melting ice off the sidewalks would work The ad mentions atrigger for max. temps over 4500 degrees F, 6' 8 1/2" hose, etc. If anyonehas used this I would appreciate a buzz back, since I only haveoxy- acetylene torches in the shop, although my forge is propane, so I canrig up a propane torch.Thanks again, as usual---now off to the water!! Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 14:31:56 1999 Subject: Re: Bastard Tapers malicous macros fall under the definition of a virus. They attachthemselvesto the default "normal.dot" file. Then every word file you open picks up themacros from normal.dot. Every file you distribute takes the macros withit. George replied to my note inquiring why he used word on ROFF for thetapers.This is "Classic George". He appears to be blaming someone else for this -who is "Fick" - and he is innocent. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Bastard Tapers Are you saying that the file contained a virus? Or just Macros. I'mwondering why you would need a lot of macros in a posting of a rodtaper.You should have an option to open up the file with macros disabled. If notyou can set Word for this option. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: September 26, 1999 6:00 AM Subject: Bastard Tapers Hi, Last night George Gehrke posted one of his tapers onrec.outdoors.fishing.fly DO NOT OPEN THE FILE. It is a MS Word Document and is packed with Macros. I was lazy anddidn'tscan it first. I'll extract the data and send it out later as a plain oldvanilla text file. Probably tonight after I restore my system. Paul from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Sep 26 14:45:57 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 03:45:27 +0800 Subject: Re: Bastard Tapers Has anybody ever met this George person? Tony At 03:29 PM 9/26/99 -0400, PMG wrote:malicous macros fall under the definition of a virus. They attachthemselvesto the default "normal.dot" file. Then every word file you open picks upthemacros from normal.dot. Every file you distribute takes the macros withit. George replied to my note inquiring why he used word on ROFF for thetapers.This is "Classic George". He appears to be blaming someone else for this -who is "Fick" - and he is innocent. Paul ----- Original Message -----From: Martin Jensen Sent: Sunday, September 26, 1999 2:59 PMSubject: RE: Bastard Tapers Are you saying that the file contained a virus? Or just Macros. I'mwondering why you would need a lot of macros in a posting of a rodtaper.You should have an option to open up the file with macros disabled. Ifnotyou can set Word for this option. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: September 26, 1999 6:00 AM Subject: Bastard Tapers Hi, Last night George Gehrke posted one of his tapers onrec.outdoors.fishing.fly DO NOT OPEN THE FILE. It is a MS Word Document and is packed with Macros. I was lazy anddidn'tscan it first. I'll extract the data and send it out later as a plain oldvanilla text file. Probably tonight after I restore my system. Paul /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from flytyr@southshore.com Sun Sep 26 14:47:15 1999 Subject: Re: Wax How long should a person wait to wax after varnish is dry, "days, weeks ormonths."Thanks,Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,I have waxed my rods for over 30+ years now and I have refinished someofthese in the interim. Never had a problem with fisheye because of wax. Thebest wax you ask, good old butchers wax.Bret from djk762@hotmail.com Sun Sep 26 15:40:15 1999 Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:39:42 PDT Subject: Meisselback Catucci Rodmakers, Anyone know the line capacity for a Meisselback Catucci reel?Anyone comments on their quality?Thanks, David KashubaFair Oaks CA ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from Grhghlndr@aol.com Sun Sep 26 19:37:35 1999 Subject: 9' Heddon Black Beauty #17 To all on list,I will post this to the list since there is such a desire for it from so many.Bret from drinkr@voicenet.com Sun Sep 26 20:24:42 1999 0000 (207.103.136.184) Subject: Scraper Planes I have begun using an Lie Nielsen scraper for my final dimensioning. I waswondering if anyone has any insight into preferred angles and using a burrwith the blade or not. I am using an angle of 45 degrees and a slight burrwhich is recommended for more conventional woods other then bamboo. Thanksin advance David Rinker from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 21:00:10 1999 Subject: text version of the bastard taper Hi all, Here is the text only version of the bastard tapers. Paul BAMBOO BUILDERS WHO HAVE A NEED TO KNOW:The following mathematics, developed by myself that produces the crispcasting actionof the "Happy Hooker" Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Series, is presented for yourtaper files. BAMBOO FLY ROD DESIGN By George Gehrke Developed and programmed by Gink SoftwareSwelled Butt Number: 2754 Date: 09-26-1999Length in inches: 90Rod action value: .301Line weight value: .068Triangle Angle: 62Design for a 6 Sided Rod. Station, inches Diameter, inches Half dia., inches Halfdia. @ 62 0 .0646 .0323 .03101 .0666 .0333 .03202 .0688 .0344 .03303 .0712 .0356 .03424 .0741 .0370 .03565 .0774 .0387 .03726 .0811 .0405 .03897 .0853 .0426 .04108 .0902 .0451 .04339 .0951 .0475 .045710 .0998 .0499 .047911 .1039 .0520 .049912 .1077 .0538 .051713 .1114 .0557 .053514 .1149 .0574 .055215 .1183 .0591 .056816 .1215 .0607 .058417 .1247 .0623 .059918 .1277 .0639 .061419 .1306 .0653 .062820 .1336 .0668 .064221 .1365 .0682 .065622 .1395 .0697 .067023 .1424 .0712 .068424 .1452 .0726 .069825 .1481 .0741 .071226 .1510 .0755 .072627 .1540 .0770 .074028 .1568 .0784 .075329 .1596 .0798 .076730 .1625 .0812 .078131 .1653 .0827 .079432 .1682 .0841 .080833 .1710 .0855 .082134 .1738 .0869 .083535 .1766 .0883 .084836 .1794 .0897 .086237 .1821 .0911 .087538 .1848 .0924 .088839 .1876 .0938 .090140 .1904 .0952 .091541 .1932 .0966 .092842 .1962 .0981 .094343 .1989 .0994 .095644 .2018 .1009 .097045 .2046 .1023 .098346 .2075 .1038 .099747 .2104 .1052 .101148 .2133 .1067 .102549 .2161 .1081 .103850 .2190 .1095 .105251 .2219 .1109 .106652 .2248 .1124 .108053 .2276 .1138 .109354 .2305 .1153 .110855 .2334 .1167 .112256 .2363 .1182 .113557 .2391 .1196 .114958 .2421 .1210 .116359 .2449 .1224 .117760 .2477 .1239 .119061 .2506 .1253 .120462 .2539 .1269 .122063 .2569 .1285 .123464 .2599 .1300 .124965 .2629 .1314 .126366 .2658 .1329 .127767 .2688 .1344 .129268 .2719 .1359 .130669 .2750 .1375 .132170 .2773 .1387 .133271 .2815 .1408 .135372 .2854 .1427 .137173 .2896 .1448 .139174 .2943 .1472 .141475 .2995 .1498 .143976 .3051 .1525 .146677 .3109 .1555 .149478 .3170 .1585 .152379 .3233 .1617 .155380 .3280 .1640 .157681 .3287 .1644 .157982 .3289 .1644 .158083 .3290 .1645 .158184 .3292 .1646 .158185 .3293 .1646 .158286 .3294 .1647 .158387 .3295 .1648 .158388 .3296 .1648 .158389 .3297 .1648 .158490 .3298 .1649 .1585 Culm # Matched Butt split: 2/2/2 Tip splits: 2/2/2 Temper: Barred Hand FlamedGlue: Urac-185Ferrule: Bailey WoodsTip Top: Hopkins & HollowayStripping guide: Whitehead AgatineReel seat: Al BellingerVarnish: SecretCoats: 4Wraps: Black w/Red BandsCompleted: from rcurry@ttlc.net Sun Sep 26 21:35:12 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8C139A70062; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:38:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Wax If you do use wax, you won't need to restore the varnish often. And waxdoeshave a very high resistance to moisture penetration; better than varnish.I wax my rods, once or twice a season. (with Butcher's wax). If I need toput on another varnish coat, I wipe down the rod several times with a ragsoaked in turps; this gets all the wax off.I treat my rods with care, wiping all water off before throwing them inthetrunk for another week. Despite the heat of summer, I have never had a rodwhich was cased properly, delaminate. And many of these rods were builtwithhide glue. Go figure. : )Best regards,Reed. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/25/99 11:11:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,hartzell@easystreet.com writes: Don Burns suggested waxing rods after drying in order to protect them.My experience indicates that wax is extremely hard to get rid of andgives the restorer many headaches. Johnson's PRIDE is the mainculpritsince it is full of silocones. It is best to dry the rod (and case andbag) and put it all back in the closet without adding any waxes orotherfinishes. The wax won't keep the rod from gaining moisture content ifyou live in a humid environment.. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Sep 26 22:39:41 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:39:06 +0800 Subject: Re: Scraper Planes I think sticking to the original angle is a good idea. remember you use theLN scraper with the bevel facing you and you can adjust the tilt angle ofthe iron to fine tune it. Tony At 09:17 PM 9/26/99 -0400, David K. Rinker wrote:I have begun using an Lie Nielsen scraper for my final dimensioning. Iwaswondering if anyone has any insight into preferred angles and using a burrwith the blade or not. I am using an angle of 45 degrees and a slight burrwhich is recommended for more conventional woods other then bamboo. Thanksin advance David Rinker /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Sep 26 22:43:13 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:42:56 +0800 Subject: Re: text version of the bastard taper Just goes to show you can make a sows ear from silk ingrediants ;-) Tony Hi all, Here is the text only version of the bastard tapers. Paul BAMBOO BUILDERS WHO HAVE A NEED TO KNOW:The following mathematics, developed by myself that produces the crispcasting actionof the "Happy Hooker" Bastard Bamboo Fly Rod Series, is presented foryourtaper files. /**** Tapers deleted ******/ Culm # Matched Butt split: 2/2/2 Tip splits: 2/2/2 Temper: Barred Hand FlamedGlue: Urac-185Ferrule: Bailey WoodsTip Top: Hopkins & HollowayStripping guide: Whitehead AgatineReel seat: Al BellingerVarnish: SecretCoats: 4Wraps: Black w/Red BandsCompleted: /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from mschaffer@mindspring.com Mon Sep 27 05:39:38 1999 Subject: Tempering oven temp range Listers,I heard last night from a friend who is making a tempering oven, that theoven he's made will hold a steady temp of 325 degrees F. Because I'm notpositive of the correct answer, I'm posing it to the list. Should he use anadditional mica stip heater to get the temp to 350-375 degrees, or will325degrees do it for a tempering oven? And if he needs another strip, couldsomeone please send the address which I had, but can't find even though ithas been on the list recently?Thanks for the help, Mike from mrmac@tcimet.net Mon Sep 27 09:43:38 1999 Subject: Re: Tempering oven temp range Mike, if you go to http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml, one ofthelinks on that page is to a fairly detailed quantitative analysis of thetime/temperature effects of heat treating. Rather than just the article, Iposted the link for the main page due to the many other cane rod relatedpagesit references, for those who haven't discovered it yet. Hope you find it helpful - mac Mike Shaffer wrote: Listers,I heard last night from a friend who is making a tempering oven, that theoven he's made will hold a steady temp of 325 degrees F. Because I'm notpositive of the correct answer, I'm posing it to the list. Should he use anadditional mica stip heater to get the temp to 350-375 degrees, or will325degrees do it for a tempering oven? And if he needs another strip, couldsomeone please send the address which I had, but can't find even thoughithas been on the list recently?Thanks for the help, Mike from TBUTLER@HEWM.COM Mon Sep 27 10:30:26 1999 [206.189.208.11] (may beforged)) by mail01-oak.pilot.net with SMTP id IAA05794 for; (WorldSecureServer SMTP Relay(WSS) v3.6.2); Mon, 27 Sep 99 08:28:29 - 0700Archiverodmakers, file log9909.Part 1/1 (subpart 19/24), total size 1521924 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:29:36 -0700 "Ralph W Moon" RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Rod taper theories boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF08FD.1AD8ABFE" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does notunderstandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF08FD.1AD8ABFE After reading many messages which discuss the "hinge effect" I'll justjumpin with my question, since I am somewhat of a neophyte, just what is the"hinge effect" and (if bad) what do you do to cure it and (if good) what doyou do to encourage it, and why should I care if I am just a basic, averageflycaster? -----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS [SMTP:HARMS1@prodigy.net]Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 9:05 AM Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu;RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Ralph, Thanks so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct about tapers,casting properties and "the individual factor." This latter issue isusually neglected or ignored by us because there is little of applicableuse that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, "the individualfactor" may turn out to be one of the most important issues in the wholeequation. As you know, we try to design rods to their own optimumperformance ability, assuming "all other factors being equal." But, asfar as the individual casting factor is concerned, there is no "equality"at all (and, importantly, the big differences are not even those between"good" and "poor" casters). As to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar), myguess would have predicted pretty much what you described--a rod thatdoesnot handle distance well, but kicks out tight loops at close range--thatis, as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seen the rod'sspecs, of course, but I should think that concavity in the middle of therod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect rightwhere power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from thestronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm notsurprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded fordistance-casting. the butt section or the tip section to "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's innate senseof muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is neverquite able to work in concert with itself. Just a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) engineeringbackground. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon > Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com >; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 5:33 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but for whatitis worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I thinksuccessfully) aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have hadcommentsranging from "No damned good" to "Wow!!! That's tremendous. My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long distancecasting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that less powerinputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the point on indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individual factor.Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will never feelcomportable with it. Others may feel the rhythm, but dislike it,andother slip it on like a glove. It does not mean that particulartaperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS to all those who may have wished me well during my recenttrialsandtribulations. I may have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving. I finallyended up with a 5 way bypass. I am home and although still sore andweak, I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF08FD.1AD8ABFE RE: Rod taper theories After readingmany =messages which discuss the "hinge effect" I'll just jump in =with my question, since I am somewhat of a neophyte, just what is the = and (if good) what do you do to encourage it, and why should I care if =I am just a basic, average flycaster? -----Original Message----- WILLIAM A HARMS =[SMTP:HARMS1@prodigy.net] Saturday, September 25, 1999 9:05 AM RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Re: Rod taper theories Ralph,=A0Thanks =so much for the input.=A0 I'm sure you are correct about tapers, =casting properties and "the individual factor."=A0 This =latter issue is usually neglected or ignored by us because there is =little of applicable use that we really can say about it.=A0 =Ironically, however, "the individual factor" may turn out to =be one of the most important issues in the whole equation.=A0 As you =know, we try to design rods to their own optimum performance ability, =assuming "all other factors being equal."=A0 But, as far as =the individual casting factor is concerned, there is no ="equality" at all (and, importantly, the big differences are =not even those between "good" and "poor" =casters). =A0As to the "Castle =Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar), my guess would =have predicted pretty much what you described-- a rod that does not =handle distance well, but kicks out tight loops at close range--that =is, as we say, "all other=factors being equal."=A0 I haven't seen the rod's specs, of =course, but I should think that concavity in the middle of the rod's =taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect right where =power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from the stronger =butt section to the finer tip areas).=A0 With the hinge, I'm not =surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when =loaded for distance-casting. =A0 however, the caster is probably depending upon either the butt section = "do the rod's =work" (that is, depending upon the individual's innate sense of =muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is never =quite able to work in concert with itself.=A0 =A0Just a theoretical guess,=based upon my vast (yeah, right) engineering background.=A0cheers, Bill=A0=A0-----Original =Message----- HARMS1@prodigy.net= Cc: =FISHWOOL@aol.com < mcdowellc@lanecc.edu = Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 5:33 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but for what =itis worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I think successfully) =aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have had =commentsranging from "No damned good"=A0 to "Wow!!! That's =tremendous.=A0 My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long distance =casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that less power =inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the point on indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individual factor.=A0 =Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will never =feelcomportable with it.=A0 Others may feel the rhythm, but dislike it,=A0 =andother slip it on like a glove.=A0 It does not mean that particular =taperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS=A0 to all those who may have wished me well during my recent trials =andtribulations.=A0 I may have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail =tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving.=A0 I =finallyended up with a 5 way bypass.=A0 I am home and although still sore =andweak,=A0 I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF08FD.1AD8ABFE-- from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Sep 27 12:13:07 1999 (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP +0200 Subject: Fly Line Cleaner & wax boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF091C.D6922720" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF091C.D6922720 To all: Teeny Nymph Co, informs me that their fly line cleaner & linedresser does not contain silicone. Usual disclaimer yadda, yadda. regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF091C.D6922720 To all: Teeny Nymph Co, informs me that= cleaner & linedresserdoes = silicone. Usual disclaimer yadda, yadda. regards, Carsten Jorgensen ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF091C.D6922720-- from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Mon Sep 27 12:29:42 1999 KAA02516; (5.5.2448.0) "'cmj@post11.tele.dk'" Subject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucks thatnot onlydresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's what gink is. The tubis aboutthe size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Carsten J> orgensen[SMTP:cmj@post11.tele.dk] Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 10:16 AM Subject: Fly Line Cleaner & wax To all: Teeny Nymph Co, informs me that their fly line cleaner & linedresser does not contain silicone. Usual disclaimer yadda, yadda. regards, Carsten Jorgensen from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Sep 27 14:53:57 1999 Subject: Spamming Chris how can I stop this guy Chris and his bloody corks from spamming me? Ido not open his mail but it still bugs me.Terry from lars32@gateway.net Mon Sep 27 15:18:57 1999 Subject: nyatex glue boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01BF08FB.A8B968C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BF08FB.A8B968C0 nyophite here, 6th rod in the string glue drying. Went to nyatex with =wayne's promise of long pot life. nyatex info states that if you double =part B it increases the flexibility.Anyone have any thoughts on this? Do =we need mor flex? anyone in the Minneapolis area reading this?Dave N. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BF08FB.A8B968C0 nyophite here, 6th rod in thestring = drying. Went to nyatex with wayne's promise of long pot life. nyatex = that if you double part B it increases the flexibility.Anyone have any = on this? Do we need mor flex? anyone in the Minneapolis area reading = N. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BF08FB.A8B968C0-- from jackdale@uswest.net Mon Sep 27 16:02:26 1999 (209.180.254.227) "'cmj@post11.tele.dk'" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax . . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time. It'sgreat stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not onlydresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's what gink is. The tubis aboutthe size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Carsten J> orgensen[SMTP:cmj@post11.tele.dk] Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 10:16 AM Subject: Fly Line Cleaner & wax To all: Teeny Nymph Co, informs me that their fly line cleaner & linedresser does not contain silicone. Usual disclaimer yadda, yadda. regards, Carsten Jorgensen from hartzell@easystreet.com Mon Sep 27 16:09:58 1999 Subject: (no subject)wax Sorry to have caused such a hassle over wax. Sorry if I have offendedanyone. Glad that those of you who use wax like it so much. Glad youhave found waxes that do not affect revarnishing. Sorry my opinions arenot shared by anyone else. Enough?Ed Hartzell from fquinchat@locl.net Mon Sep 27 17:30:53 1999 corsair.locl.net(8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07898 for ;Mon, 27 Sep 1999 Subject: 9 foot taper boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF090E.BB84D4E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF090E.BB84D4E0 Ralph, Please post the 9 ft taper. Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF090E.BB84D4E0 Ralph, Please post the 9 ft taper. Dennis ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF090E.BB84D4E0-- from bkelley@columbus.rr.com Mon Sep 27 19:33:15 1999 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's it locatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com from briancreek@crosswinds.net Mon Sep 27 19:40:08 1999 (envelope- from briancreek@crosswinds.net) Subject: Re: Wax Me too. I wax my rods each winter after cleaning them with a dampdiaper and letting them dry overnight. I've used light briwax andWayne's lemon oil wax with equal success. Brian from stpete@netten.net Mon Sep 27 20:21:09 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:25:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Wax I shouldn't even touch this one, but I somehow had the impression thatBrian was not so young, nor so old as to have these lying around. Brian D. Creek wrote: ...I wax my rods each winter after cleaning them with a dampdiaper and letting them dry overnight...Brian Apologies, RC from darrelll@earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 20:50:57 1999 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif. andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there in PA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's it locatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com from channer@hubwest.com Mon Sep 27 21:03:09 1999 (SMTPD32-4.06) id A2344B0A0130; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 20:04:36 MST Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 06:50 PM 09/27/1999 -0700, Darrell Lee wrote:You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif. andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there in PA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.comGuys;Look in the handcream area of most any chain drugstore. Rite-Aid here inDurango has it, you ought to be able to get it anywhere if it is availablehere, hell, sometimes they even have to special order TP in this town.John from mrj@aa.net Mon Sep 27 21:05:30 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:05:19 -0700 Subject: RE: Spamming Chris depending on the e-mail application that you use you might be able to setupa filter or a "kill" file to automatically send it to the trash can. I useOutlook 98 and I don't think I can do this but I am sure that some otherprograms can. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- ACKLAND Subject: Spamming Chris how can I stop this guy Chris and his bloody corks from spamming me? Ido not open his mail but it still bugs me.Terry from jwilcox@netsync.net Mon Sep 27 21:22:17 1999 Subject: test boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF0936.E332BB60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF0936.E332BB60 just a test to see if i'm still connected. jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF0936.E332BB60 just a test to see if i'm still = jim wilcox ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BF0936.E332BB60-- from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 21:23:15 1999 Subject: Re: Spamming Chris In outlook it's TOOLS - Message rules - blocked sender list. Paul----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Spamming Chris depending on the e-mail application that you use you might be able to setupa filter or a "kill" file to automatically send it to the trash can. I useOutlook 98 and I don't think I can do this but I am sure that some otherprograms can. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu ACKLANDSent: September 27, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Spamming Chris how can I stop this guy Chris and his bloody corks from spamming me? Ido not open his mail but it still bugs me.Terry from mrj@aa.net Mon Sep 27 21:54:29 1999 Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:54:24 -0700 Subject: RE: Spamming Chris thanks. I learned something today! Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Spamming Chris In outlook it's TOOLS - Message rules - blocked sender list. Paul----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Spamming Chris depending on the e-mail application that you use you might be able to setupa filter or a "kill" file to automatically send it to the trash can. I useOutlook 98 and I don't think I can do this but I am sure that some otherprograms can. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu ACKLANDSent: September 27, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: Spamming Chris how can I stop this guy Chris and his bloody corks from spamming me? Ido not open his mail but it still bugs me.Terry from cattanac@wmis.net Tue Sep 28 00:04:48 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Wax Brian -I would point out that the lemon oil is a cleaner - perhaps to removethe 'trout' from the rod - I suspect that the wax would work fine for youthough : ) Wayne ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wax Me too. I wax my rods each winter after cleaning them with a dampdiaper and letting them dry overnight. I've used light briwax andWayne's lemon oil wax with equal success. Brian from dickay@alltel.net Tue Sep 28 06:06:21 1999 GAA13203 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Guys: I found my tub at Osco. Its in the ladies hand cream / face creamsection. A new Walgreen's just opened here but I haven't checked there tosee if they have it. My tub is still full. It was on a low shelf. It isalmost like Vaseline. I think that it has a lot of petroleum jelly in it.Try the big chain drug stores.Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net from mschaffer@mindspring.com Tue Sep 28 07:54:07 1999 Subject: Info on Albolene As promised earlier this morning, here's the poop on the albolene: Phone: (215) 441-6500Fax: (2150 441-6576 12 oz. unscented--order no. 000380 $9.99 ea. 6oz. unscented--order no.000384 $6.19 ea. I don't remember if they had a minimum order, postage costs, etc. but givethem a call.Hope this helps, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Tue Sep 28 08:04:32 1999 GAA18444; (5.5.2448.0) "'bkelley@columbus.rr.com'" Subject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax ask your druggist for it. mine had to order it for me, it's scentless facecleaner (makeup) for women. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Brendan W. Kelley[SMTP:bkelley@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:33 AM Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com from trout_eejit@hotmail.com Tue Sep 28 08:52:51 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:52:09 PDT Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax In the US, you can buy it online from: http://cdesb.com/albolene.html From: "Darrell Lee" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & waxDate: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:50:36 -0700 You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif. andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there in PA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Brendan W. Kelley Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's it locatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from lars32@gateway.net Tue Sep 28 10:52:35 1999 Subject: groove in plane boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF099F.A9453B80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF099F.A9453B80 I can't understand how a groove in the sole of a plane can help =planning. How does keeping the sole of a plane away from the bamboo =help. It would seem to me thatthe pressure of the sole would help.Neophite here from Minneapolis ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF099F.A9453B80 = can help planning. How does keeping the sole of a plane away from the = help. It would seem to me thatthe pressure of the sole would help.Neophite here from =Minneapolis ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF099F.A9453B80-- from tripp@olywa.net Tue Sep 28 11:07:17 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-56662U5000L500S0V35)with SMTP id net for ;Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:39:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Info on Albolene I found a couple of places on the web that it can be ordered from. C.D. Enterprises.http://cdesb.com/albolene.html714.563.9595 and Title Boxinghttp://st14.yahoo.net/titleboxing/alb-sm.html1.800.999.1213 Does anyone know for sure, that this is the same stuff as Gink? I havethisvision of G. G. buying 50 gallon drums of the stuff, pouring it into 1 oz.squirt bottles and laughing with every check that shows up! Mark ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Info on Albolene As promised earlier this morning, here's the poop on the albolene: Phone: (215) 441-6500Fax: (2150 441-6576 12 oz. unscented--order no. 000380 $9.99 ea. 6oz. unscented--order no.000384 $6.19 ea. I don't remember if they had a minimum order, postage costs, etc. butgivethem a call.Hope this helps, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 28 13:15:03 1999 13:14:16 -0500 ix3.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Resorcinol white? John Zimny mentions in the FAQs section on adhesives on the Rodmakerssite a way to make a white Resorciol and it references page 94 of "thebook" which I assume is Garrisson and Carmichael's book. I currentlydon't have access to the book. Anyone out there know how to do this??? ThanksJeremy from mevans@acxiom.com Tue Sep 28 13:55:42 1999 (router,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 28 Sep 1999 13:58:18 -0500 (204.107.111.23::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V3.2); Tue, 28 Sep1999 13:58:18-0500 popmail.conway.acxiom.com ; Tue Sep28 13:58:17 1999 -0500 (5.5.2650.10) Subject: Source for Pulley's I'm having trouble finding affordable metal pulley's for a Garrison binder. Would a few folks mind sending me some sources? TIA from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Sep 28 13:57:55 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:57:37 +0800 Subject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax "'bkelley@columbus.rr.com'" Boy, if I wondered about in town looking for a "drugist" I'd be arrested,shades of Fear & Loathing in LA ;-) But let me get this straight. GG buys hand cream presumably by the 44 galeconomy size, repackages it and sells it as floatant. He's even got theBrits fooled, my son saw it advertised in John Norris's catalogue andaskedif there was more than one Gink. Not likely I think.What old GG lacks in good form he more than makes up for with soft hands;-) At 06:04 AM 9/28/99 -0700, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:ask your druggist for it. mine had to order it for me, it's scentless facecleaner (make up) for women. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Brendan W. Kelley[SMTP:bkelley@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:33 AM Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about sixbucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Sep 28 14:01:34 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:01:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01BF09C1.E1714C20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BF09C1.E1714C20 Tim, Other folks may have different descriptions of the "hinge effect," but =basically it is a relatively weak area that has been created somewhere =along the length of a fly rod. This affects adversely the rod's overall =ability to resist the forces of bending (i.e.., casting), and to deliver =its potential punch to the line itself. Under ideal circumstances a fly =rod ought to be capable of transferring its power evenly upward from the =butt to the tip-top, just as a spring would unwind. But a rod with a ="hinge" is likely not to perform optimally when pressed, since there is =a built-in weak spot somewhere along its length that interrupts this =transfer of stored energy (i.e.., a power stroke). Some rods are =afflicted with this design problem, while others are not. And again, =some casters are more likely to notice the flaw than others. So, in any =case, the "hinge-effect" is a highly relative term. As you probably know, rod tapers (when viewed in profile on graph paper) =do not run straight from butt-to-ferrule-to-tip. Instead, most tapers =step-down here and there, narrowing in a progression of stages. A ="hinge" can be created in a taper's design by narrowing too much and too =soon at a certain point (that is, relative to the cross-sectional mass =accumulated just behind or just ahead (or both) of the "problem area"). =A designer can "hide" this kind of problem either by avoiding altogether =any spot of convexity along the profile of the taper, or by compensating = =to be convex areas. "Juggling" these factors (and many others, too) is what results in a =rod's relative action and success. Having said that, there are some =rods ("parabolics", for instance) that creatively make use of the hinge =effect in their casting potential. So, we ought to be careful thinking =that all hinges are necessarily "bad." As a builder, you can either =select tapers that seem to minimize the hinge effect, or you can design =your own tapers. As a caster, you can't do much to overcome a rod with =a hinge (if it is bugging you), except just be satisfied with shorter =casts or more open loops. Other folks will want to jump in here, because there's a lot more to be =said on the topic, pro and con. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Butler, Timothy H. Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com ; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 8:32 AMSubject: RE: Rod taper theories After reading many messages which discuss the "hinge effect" I'll =just jump in with my question, since I am somewhat of a neophyte, just =what is the "hinge effect" and (if bad) what do you do to cure it and =(if good) what do you do to encourage it, and why should I care if I am =just a basic, average flycaster? Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu; = Thanks so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct about =tapers, casting properties and "the individual factor." This latter =issue is usually neglected or ignored by us because there is little of =applicable use that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, ="the individual factor" may turn out to be one of the most important =issues in the whole equation. As you know, we try to design rods to =their own optimum performance ability, assuming "all other factors being=equal." But, as far as the individual casting factor is concerned, =there is no "equality" at all (and, importantly, the big differences are =not even those between "good" and "poor" casters). As to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not =familiar), my guess would have predicted pretty much what you =described--a rod that does not handle distance well, but kicks out tight = as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seen the =rod's specs, of course, but I should think that concavity in the middle =of the rod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect =right where power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from =the stronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge, I'm =not surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded for =distance-casting. "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's =innate sense of muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire = Just a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right) = -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon > Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com >; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 5:33 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but = is worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I think =successfully) aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have had =commentsranging from "No damned good" to "Wow!!! That's tremendous. =My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to long =distance casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that less =power inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the point =on indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individual =factor. Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and will =never feelcomportable with it. Others may feel the rhythm, but =dislike it, andother slip it on like a glove. It does not mean that =particular taperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS to all those who may have wished me well during my =recent trials andtribulations. I may have missed a lot of messages, and if I =fail tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving. I =finallyended up with a 5 way bypass. I am home and although still =sore andweak, I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BF09C1.E1714C20 RE: Rod tapertheories Tim, Other folks mayhave = descriptions of the "hinge effect," but basically it is a = weak area that has been created somewhere along the length of a fly = This affects adversely the rod's overall ability to resist the forces of = (i.e.., casting), and to deliver its potential punch to the line = Under ideal circumstances a fly rod ought to be capable of transferring = power evenly upward from the butt to the tip-top, just as a spring would = optimally when pressed, since there is a built-in weak spot somewhere = term. As you probablyknow, = in a taper's design by narrowing too much and too soon at a certain = is, relative to the cross-sectional mass accumulated just behind or just = "hide" this kind of problem either by avoiding altogether any = convexity along the profile of the taper, or by compensating by = areas. "Juggling" = factors (and many others, too) is what results in a rod's relative = that seem to minimize the hinge effect, or you can design your own = As a caster, you can't do much to overcome a rod with a hinge (if it is = loops. Other folks willwant = con. Bill -----Original = Ralph = = =RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Monday, September 27, 1999 8:32 AMSubject: RE: Rod = theoriesAfter reading many= discuss the "hinge effect" I'll just jump in with my = do you do to encourage it, and why should I care if I am just a = average flycaster? -----Original Message-----= =WILLIAM A HARMS = =Saturday, September 25, 1999 9:05 = Re: Rod taper theories ignored by us because there is little of applicable use that we = factor" may turn out to be one of the most important issues = optimum performance ability, assuming "all other factors = concerned, there is no "equality" at all (and, = the big differences are not even those between "good" = "poor" casters). not familiar), my guess would have predicted pretty much what = described--a rod that does not handle distance well, but kicks = loops at close range--that is, as we say, "all= course, but I should think that concavity in the middle of the = taper, if it were significant, would create a hinge effect right = power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from the = surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" = loaded for distance-casting. "do the rod's = muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod is = cheers, = Ralph W Moon < = Re: Rod taper =theories BillFar be it for me to get in the = this argument, but for what itis worth the Castle Connel = taper used (and I think successfully) aconcav taper = about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that = I have had commentsranging from "No damned = that it is noat a taper coducive to long distance = strange as it may seems creates the impression that less = inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow.One thing = think a lot of guys are missing the point on = Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and = wished me well during my recent trials = may have missed a lot of messages, and if I fail tothank = =weeks.Ralph ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BF09C1.E1714C20-- from anglport@con2.com Tue Sep 28 14:07:31 1999 (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1D732000DC; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:07:03 -0400 "Rod Makers" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax All, and anyone,If you're in the NYC metropolitan area, Genovese Drugs carries it. It'safacial cleaner and it's a lifetime supply of Gink or a week's supply ofcream for a teenager. If I recall correctly, it's competing with Noxema.Tell your druggist what it's NORMALLY used for and they'll probably be ableto locate it for you. Mention flyrodding and you're outta luck!!! I know;I tried to locate it several times in the past and was unsuccesssful. WhenI knew how to categorize it, I got results.After seeing the way Gherke uses his keyboard, I was doubly glad Ifound away to short-circuit his golden goose!Art You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif. andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there in PA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Brendan W. Kelley Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Sep 28 14:10:01 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id OAA05239 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id OAA03852 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 Subject: Re: Resorcinol white? Jeremy, Its in the archives at http://www.uwm.edu/cgi-bin/stetzer/search2.pl/rm9512.113 but the followup report was that the lightening effect fades andafter awhile you are back to the purple glue lines.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Jeremy Gray wrote: John Zimny mentions in the FAQs section on adhesives on the Rodmakerssite a way to make a white Resorciol and it references page 94 of "thebook" which I assume is Garrisson and Carmichael's book. I currentlydon't have access to the book. Anyone out there know how to do this??? ThanksJeremy from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Sep 28 14:14:59 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:14:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009D_01BF09C3.C631FA20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BF09C3.C631FA20 All, A few months ago I had a most unhappy series of exchanges with Mr. =Gherke (what else would one expect?), and upon asking him why one should=buy "Gink" when the same thing is marketed at a fraction of the cost as ="Albolene," he flew into a rage at my ignorance of basic chemistry, =insisting that the two products are not at all the same. Albolene, he =explained, contains chemicals that are extremely toxic to trout habitat, =and that one shouldn't get within a mile of a quality stream with the = Any comments? cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc: Rod Makers ; ='bkelley@columbus.rr.com' Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 12:05 PMSubject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Boy, if I wondered about in town looking for a "drugist" I'd be =arrested, ;-) But let me get this straight. GG buys hand cream presumably by the =44 galeconomy size, repackages it and sells it as floatant. He's even got =theBrits fooled, my son saw it advertised in John Norris's catalogue =and askedif there was more than one Gink. Not likely I think.What old GG lacks in good form he more than makes up for with soft =hands ;-) At 06:04 AM 9/28/99 -0700, Coffey, Patrick W wrote:ask your druggist for it. mine had to order it for me, it's =scentless facecleaner (make up) for women. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ----------From: Brendan W. Kelley[SMTP:bkelley@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:33 AM Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long =time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about =six bucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, =it's whatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese =container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's =it locatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and =Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com =/************************************************************************=*/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It =/************************************************************************=*/ ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BF09C3.C631FA20 All, A few months agoI = unhappy series of exchanges with Mr. Gherke (what else would one = upon asking him why one should buy "Gink" when the same thing= marketed at a fraction of the cost as "Albolene," he flew into = at my ignorance of basic chemistry, insisting that the two products are = amile of = stream with the stuff. comments? Bill -----Original = Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.c= <Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.c= Rod Makers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, September 28, 1999 12:05 PMSubject: RE: Fly= Cleaner & waxBoy, if I wondered about in = looking for a "drugist" I'd be arrested,shades of Fear = Loathing in LA ;-)But let me get this straight. GG buys = cream presumably by the 44 galeconomy size, repackages it and = as floatant. He's even got theBrits fooled, my son saw it = John Norris's catalogue and askedif there was more than one = likely I think.What old GG lacks in good form he more than makes = with soft hands ;-)At 06:04 AM 9/28/99 -0700, Coffey, = scentless facecleaner (make up) for = = = Kelley[SMTP:bkelley@columbus.rr.com= = one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long = "albolene" from the drug store for about six = that not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, = =/********************************************************************= Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~a= this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, = running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in = =It/**************************************************************=***********/ ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BF09C3.C631FA20-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Sep 28 14:29:36 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 03:29:08 +0800 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax "Rod Makers" , types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_8317124==_.ALT" --=====================_8317124==_.ALT GG just never say's die does he. At 03:11 PM 9/28/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: All, A few months ago I had a most unhappy series of exchanges with Mr.Gherke(what else would one expect?), and upon asking him why one should buy"Gink"when the same thing is marketed at a fraction of the cost as "Albolene,"heflew into a rage at my ignorance of basic chemistry, insisting that thetwoproducts are not at all the same. Albolene, he explained, containschemicalsthat are extremely toxic to trout habitat, and that one shouldn't getwithina mile of a quality stream with the stuff. Any comments? cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Tony Young avyoung@iinet.net.au> Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com> Cc: Rod Makersrodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>'bkelley@columbus.rr.com'bkelley@columbus.rr.com> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 12:05 PM Subject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Boy, if I wondered about in town looking for a "drugist" I'd be arrested, shades of Fear & Loathing in LA ;-) But let me get this straight. GG buys hand cream presumably by the 44gal economy size, repackages it and sells it as floatant. He's even got the Brits fooled, my son saw it advertised in John Norris's catalogue andasked if there was more than one Gink. Not likely I think. What old GG lacks in good form he more than makes up for with softhands;-) At 06:04 AM 9/28/99 -0700, Coffey, Patrick W wrote: ask your druggist for it. mine had to order it for me, it's scentlessface cleaner (make up) for women. Patrick W. Coffey AOG Incident Repair Planning Phone: 425-234-2901 Fax: 425-237-0083 M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- From: Brendan W. Kelley[SMTP:bkelley@columbus.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:33 AM Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote: . . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time. It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about sixbucks that not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it'swhat gink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocated in the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and I couldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelley bkelley@columbus.rr.com /*************************************************************************/ AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt, Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks, Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_8317124==_.ALT GG just never say's die does he. At 03:11 PM 9/28/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: All, A few months ago I had amostunhappy series of exchanges with Mr. Gherke (what else would oneexpect?), and upon asking him why one should buy "Gink" whenthe same thing is marketed at a fraction of the cost as"Albolene," he flew into a rage at my ignorance of basic Albolene, he explained, contains chemicals that are extremely toxic totrout habitat, and that one shouldn't get within a mile of a qualitystream with the stuff. Any comments? cheers,Bill -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Cc: Rod Makers 'bkelley@columbus.rr.com' Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 12:05 PMSubject: RE: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Boy, if I wondered about in town looking for a "drugist" I'dbe arrested,shades of Fear & Loathing in LA ;-) But let me get this straight. GG buys hand cream presumably by the 44galeconomy size, repackages it and sells it as floatant. He's even got theBrits fooled, my son saw it advertised in John Norris's catalogue andaskedif there was more than one Gink. Not likely I think.What old GG lacks in good form he more than makes up for with softhands ;-) At 06:04 AM 9/28/99 -0700, Coffey, Patrick W wrote: facecleaner (make up) for women. 61-79 long time. drug store forabout six bucks it's what container. for/where's it located and I /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_8317124==_.ALT-- from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Tue Sep 28 14:29:50 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id OAA10580; Tue, 28 Sep1999 14:29:46 -0500 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with Subject: Re: Source for Pulley's American Science & Surplus has metal and nylon pulleys in severalsizes for $1-$4. I got 6 inch pulleys for my Milward-style binder http://www.sciplus.combut you have to be lucky to find any particular thing. Better offgetting a paper catalog. They have a store near me, which is a goodplace to kill an hour.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, mevans - Mark Evans wrote: I'm having trouble finding affordable metal pulley's for a Garrison binder. Would a few folks mind sending me some sources? TIA from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Tue Sep 28 14:30:16 1999 0400 Subject: RE: Rod taper theories Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rod willnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? -----Original Message-----From: WILLIAM A HARMS [SMTP:HARMS1@prodigy.net]Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:58 PM Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu;RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Tim, Other folks may have different descriptions of the "hinge effect," butbasically it is a relatively weak area that has been created somewherealong the length of a fly rod. This affects adversely the rod's overallability to resist the forces of bending (i.e.., casting), and to deliverits potential punch to the line itself. Under ideal circumstances a flyrod ought to be capable of transferring its power evenly upward from thebutt to the tip-top, just as a spring would unwind. But a rod with a"hinge" is likely not to perform optimally when pressed, since there is abuilt- in weak spot somewhere along its length that interrupts thistransfer of stored energy (i.e.., a power stroke). Some rods areafflicted with this design problem, while others are not. And again,somecasters are more likely to notice the flaw than others. So, in any case,the "hinge-effect" is a highly relative term. As you probably know, rod tapers (when viewed in profile on graph paper)do not run straight from butt-to-ferrule-to-tip. Instead, most tapersstep-down here and there, narrowing in a progression of stages. A"hinge"can be created in a taper's design by narrowing too much and too soon atacertain point (that is, relative to the cross-sectional mass accumulatedjust behind or just ahead (or both) of the "problem area"). A designercan "hide" this kind of problem either by avoiding altogether any spot ofconvexity along the profile of the taper, or by compensating by designingslightly greater cross-sectional mass where there are going to beconvexareas. "Juggling" these factors (and many others, too) is what results in a rod'srelative action and success. Having said that, there are some rods("parabolics", for instance) that creatively make use of the hinge effectin their casting potential. So, we ought to be careful thinking that allhinges are necessarily "bad." As a builder, you can either select tapersthat seem to minimize the hinge effect, or you can design your owntapers.As a caster, you can't do much to overcome a rod with a hinge (if it isbugging you), except just be satisfied with shorter casts or more openloops. Other folks will want to jump in here, because there's a lot more to besaid on the topic, pro and con. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Butler, Timothy H. > Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com >; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 8:32 AMSubject: RE: Rod taper theories After reading many messages which discuss the "hinge effect" I'lljust jump in with my question, since I am somewhat of a neophyte, justwhat is the "hinge effect" and (if bad) what do you do to cure it and (ifgood) what do you do to encourage it, and why should I care if I am just abasic, average flycaster? -----Original Message----- From: WILLIAM A HARMS [SMTP:HARMS1@prodigy.net] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 9:05 AM Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu;RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Ralph, Thanks so much for the input. I'm sure you are correct abouttapers, casting properties and "the individual factor." This latter issueis usually neglected or ignored by us because there is little ofapplicable use that we really can say about it. Ironically, however, "theindividual factor" may turn out to be one of the most important issues inthe whole equation. As you know, we try to design rods to their ownoptimum performance ability, assuming "all other factors being equal."But, as far as the individual casting factor is concerned, there is no"equality" at all (and, importantly, the big differences are not eventhose between "good" and "poor" casters). As to the "Castle Connel Kick Taper" (with which I am not familiar),my guess would have predicted pretty much what you described--a rodthatdoes not handle distance well, but kicks out tight loops at closerange--that is, as we say, "all other factors being equal." I haven't seenthe rod's specs, of course, but I should think that concavity in themiddle of the rod's taper, if it were significant, would create a hingeeffect right where power would be needed (to effect a smooth transition from the stronger butt section to the finer tip areas). With the hinge,I'm not surprised to hear that the rod seems to "fall apart" when loaded either the butt section or the tip section to "do the rod's work" (that is, depending upon the individual's innatesense of muscle-movement and rhythm), but probably, the entire rod isnever quite able to work in concert with itself. Just a theoretical guess, based upon my vast (yeah, right)engineering background. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Ralph W Moon >> Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com > >>; mcdowellc@lanecc.edu > >>; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu > >>Date: Friday, September 24, 1999 5:33 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories BillFar be it for me to get in the middle of this argument, but is worth the Castle Connel Kick taper used (and I thinksuccessfully) aconcav taper section about mid way.I buildt a couple of rods using that concept, and I have hadcommentsranging from "No damned good" to "Wow!!! That's tremendous.My ownperception is that it is noat a taper coducive to longdistance casting,but strange as it may seems creates the impression that lesspower inputresults in a faster, narrower,bow. One thing that I think a lot of guys are missing the pointon indiscussing tapers and casting properties is the individualfactor. Somecasters simply cannot feel the rhythm of the rod and willnever feelcomportable with it. Others may feel the rhythm, butdislike it, andother slip it on like a glove. It does not mean thatparticular taperis good, bad or indifferent. Ralph PS to all those who may have wished me well during myrecent trials andtribulations. I may have missed a lot of messages, and if Ifail tothank all of you for thinking of me please be forgiving. Ifinallyended up with a 5 way bypass. I am home and although stillsore andweak, I should be planing again in a few more weeks. Ralph from DNHayashi@aol.com Tue Sep 28 15:06:03 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rod will notroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl from HALLOWELLMA@atgl.spear.navy.mil Tue Sep 28 15:09:39 1999 (5.5.2232.9) "\"michael w. shaffer\" " Subject: RE: Info on Albolene I came in during the end of these e mails. Does this dress the flyline as well or just clean it? Mark Hallowell ______________________________ Reply Separator_________________________________Subject: Info on AlboleneAuthor: "michael w. shaffer" [SMTP:mschaffer@mindspring.com] atATGLANT As promised earlier this morning, here's the poop on the albolene: Phone: (215) 441-6500Fax: (2150 441-6576 12 oz. unscented--order no. 000380 $9.99 ea. 6oz. unscented--order no.000384 $6.19 ea. I don't remember if they had a minimum order, postage costs, etc. but give them a call.Hope this helps, Mike Doc (Mike Shaffer)(mschaffer@mindspring.com) from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Sep 28 15:54:55 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:54:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF09D1.BF08C0E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF09D1.BF08C0E0 All, Mostly, we should be talking about what effect the hinge in question has =on a particular rod, where it is located, and the purpose the designer =meant for it to have. There are reasons for building a certain kind of =hinge into a rod (if it is managed properly), though, usually, a hinge =has the effect of a basic design flaw upon typical "dry-fly action." cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: DNHayashi@aol.com Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 1:16 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain =hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a =properly executed"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the = notroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answer =ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer =or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF09D1.BF08C0E0 All, Mostly, we shouldbe = about what effect the hinge in question has on a particular rod, where = are reasons for building a = hinge into a rod (if it is managed properly), though, usually, a hinge = action." Bill -----Original = DNHayashi@aol.com = Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, September 28, 1999 1:16 PMSubject: Re: Rod = theoriesIn a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24PM = "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without = and when it is not. Short answer ison a short fast rod it is = helpful in roll casting. On a longer or slowerrod it's not = you don't roll cast, you don't need =it.Darryl ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF09D1.BF08C0E0-- from Ivankatt@aol.com Tue Sep 28 16:00:34 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories how do i get off this list? from tom@cet-inc.com Tue Sep 28 16:21:26 1999 0000 Subject: RE: Source for Pulley's Mark,Look in the door hardware section of your local hardware store. I usedinexpensive brass ball bearing pulleys that are intended for sliding doors Ithink. It's been a while since I purchased them so not sure of the costexactly.Tom -----Original Message----- Evans Subject: Source for Pulley's I'm having trouble finding affordable metal pulley's for a Garrison binder.Would a few folks mind sending me some sources? TIA from Bambull@webtv.net Tue Sep 28 19:14:54 1999 1.iap.bryant.webtv.net 162.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with 162.iap.bryant.webtv.net(8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id RAA21407; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 17:14:50 -0700 ETAuAhUAsef2S3tpFEckWrQcm+2Z73TpK4oCFQDNK382KUNb0qTpBM7Mlr/4loX6qQ== Subject: Richard WesterfieldMessage-ID: All, Just a note to let everyone know that fellow rodmaker, RichardWesterfield suffered a stroke on Sunday, 9/26. He is presentlyrecovering in Hackensack University Medical Center. The phone numberis 201/996-4667. Richard's home address is: 70 Hoffman StreetSouth Hackensack, NJ 07606-1419Phone: 201/343- 8526 I am sure Richard would like to hear from his friends. Al and Carole from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 28 19:34:56 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be be fast,and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwillnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Sep 28 19:36:30 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories It might be crap but don't you find it entertaining crap? Ivankatt@aol.com wrote: how do i get off this list? from stpete@netten.net Tue Sep 28 20:19:29 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:23:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Source for Pulley's Mark, Try getting some sliding glass door replacement wheels at the localhardware store. Left over shoulder bolts and some nylon spacers (alsoavailable at the hardware store) should do the trick. Knowing what I know now, I could make a binder in an afternoon - notrouble at all. Problem for most folks is, they've never seen a binderso building one is like feeling your way around in the dark - even ifyou have the drawings to go by. Next time you're in Memphis, call meand take a look at my Jon Lintvet/Munro Rod Co. binder. Very simple.Works like a charm. Rick C. mevans - Mark Evans wrote: I'm having trouble finding affordable metal pulley's for a Garrison binder.Would a few folks mind sending me some sources? TIA from BambooRods@aol.com Tue Sep 28 20:24:04 1999 Subject: Re: Dan Seals?? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Yes, You might want to Check with Wayne, they are friends. from stpete@netten.net Tue Sep 28 20:30:31 1999 Tue, 28 Sep 1999 20:34:23 -0500 Rod Makers , bkelley@columbus.rr.comSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax I am familiar enough with George Gherke's commentary style and dearth ofknowledge to know that I would count on the "Albolene" as beingharmless. GG doesn't seem to spend much time researching information -and how could he? He spends every waking moment calling other peoplefoul names. Rick C. WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: All, A few months ago I had a most unhappy series of exchanges with Mr.Gherke (what else would one expect?), and upon asking him why oneshould buy "Gink" when the same thing is marketed at a fraction of thecost as "Albolene," he flew into a rage at my ignorance of basicchemistry, insisting that the two products are not at all the same.Albolene, he explained, contains chemicals that are extremely toxic totrout habitat, and that one shouldn't get within a mile of a qualitystream with the stuff. Any comments? cheers, Bill from flyh2o@worldnet.att.net Tue Sep 28 21:20:27 1999 mtiwmhc05.worldnet.att.net(InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:19:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Excellent....A lot of people should be familiar with, as an example, an 81/2 ft Granger....do these little puppies have a hinge? I am a neophyte....have fished cane for close to 30 years...have spent last2 mos figuring out how to sharpen a plane blade and making toothpicks outof scrap cane. fish spey rods(not cane) and single handers and want tobuild an 8 1/2 to 9 ft light(7/8wt) steelhead rod that I can singlespey(roll cast) a mile with. I have a 9ft 8wt Granger that will carry aton of line in the air and pick up more off the water than I can handle.but for me it doesn't roll cst well...my perception(faulty though it maybe) is that the tip is a little too soft to roll cast well... At 04:51 PM 9/28/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote:All, Mostly, we should be talking about what effect the hinge in question hason a particular rod, where it is located, and the purpose the designermeant for it to have. Mike Leitheiser "When the trout are lost, smash the state."Tom McGuane from DNHayashi@aol.com Tue Sep 28 23:16:58 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Re:HingeCheck the archives or ask Wayne Cattanach.Hasta la whatever from seanmcs@ar.com.au Wed Sep 29 02:48:44 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 17:45:21 +1000 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Bob: Thanks for the reference to the Albolene internet dealer. It iseasy to order and they ship worldwide, take credit cards, so useful ifyou are in Sydney, OZ.Incidentally, if it contains petroleum products I suppose those usingsilk lines would want to beware and use it only on their flies. Anyonegot a similar substitute for Mucilin - the non-silicone version? Sean Bob Holdness wrote: In the US, you can buy it online from: http://cdesb.com/albolene.html From: "Darrell Lee" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & waxDate: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:50:36 -0700 You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif.andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there inPA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Brendan W. Kelley Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about sixbucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it'swhatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Sep 29 03:41:22 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:40:42 +0800 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Whoa, another Aussie! One more step towards world domination.Sean, try John Norris of Penrith. www.JohnNorris.co.ukThey have red label mucilin. Tony At 05:48 PM 9/29/99 +1000, Sean McSharry wrote:Bob: Thanks for the reference to the Albolene internet dealer. It iseasy to order and they ship worldwide, take credit cards, so useful ifyou are in Sydney, OZ.Incidentally, if it contains petroleum products I suppose those usingsilk lines would want to beware and use it only on their flies. Anyonegot a similar substitute for Mucilin - the non-silicone version? Sean Bob Holdness wrote: In the US, you can buy it online from: http://cdesb.com/albolene.html From: "Darrell Lee" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & waxDate: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:50:36 -0700 You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif.andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there inPA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Brendan W. Kelley Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about sixbucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it'swhatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheese container. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Wed Sep 29 05:49:14 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id WAA06252; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:34 +1200 Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax Tony , Sean is coming over to Nelson for the gathering. Ian k At 04:47 PM 29/09/99 +0800, Tony Young wrote:Whoa, another Aussie! One more step towards world domination.Sean, try John Norris of Penrith. www.JohnNorris.co.ukThey have red label mucilin. Tony At 05:48 PM 9/29/99 +1000, Sean McSharry wrote:Bob: Thanks for the reference to the Albolene internet dealer. It iseasy to order and they ship worldwide, take credit cards, so useful ifyou are in Sydney, OZ.Incidentally, if it contains petroleum products I suppose those usingsilk lines would want to beware and use it only on their flies. Anyonegot a similar substitute for Mucilin - the non-silicone version? Sean Bob Holdness wrote: In the US, you can buy it online from: http://cdesb.com/albolene.html From: "Darrell Lee" Subject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & waxDate: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:50:36 -0700 You're not alone Brendan, I've been looking for the stuff for months... Can't find it in So Calif.andwhen I was on the East Coast for 16 days, I couldn't find any there inPA,VT, NH, NY, NJ, CT but then again, I only tried one or two stores perstate... Can anyone tell us specifically where they bought it within thelast 6 months? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Brendan W. Kelley Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Fly Line Cleaner & wax At 03:03 PM 9/27/99 -0600, you wrote:. . . and one of those twelve dollar tubs will last a very long time.It's great stuff. Coffey, Patrick W wrote: you can get a tub of "albolene" from the drug store for about sixbucksthat not only dresses silk fly lines but is a great fly floatent, it'swhatgink is. The tub is about the size of a small cottage cheesecontainer. Patrick W. Coffey I'll ask the obvious newbie question: what's it sold for/where's itlocatedin the drug store? They hadn't heard of it at my local store, and Icouldn't help them. Brendan W. Kelleybkelley@columbus.rr.com ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Wed Sep 29 05:49:15 1999 sage.ts.co.nz with SMTP id WAA06265; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:49:40 +1200 Subject: Re: Wax Reed, Nice to see you back again . I trust life is becoming a little lessstressfull. best wishes Ian Kearney At 10:37 PM 26/09/99 -0400, Reed Curry wrote:If you do use wax, you won't need to restore the varnish often. And waxdoeshave a very high resistance to moisture penetration; better than varnish.I wax my rods, once or twice a season. (with Butcher's wax). If I needtoput on another varnish coat, I wipe down the rod several times with a ragsoaked in turps; this gets all the wax off.I treat my rods with care, wiping all water off before throwing themin thetrunk for another week. Despite the heat of summer, I have never had arodwhich was cased properly, delaminate. And many of these rods were builtwithhide glue. Go figure. : )Best regards,Reed. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/25/99 11:11:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,hartzell@easystreet.com writes: Don Burns suggested waxing rods after drying in order to protectthem.My experience indicates that wax is extremely hard to get rid of andgives the restorer many headaches. Johnson's PRIDE is the mainculpritsince it is full of silocones. It is best to dry the rod (and case andbag) and put it all back in the closet without adding any waxes orotherfinishes. The wax won't keep the rod from gaining moisture contentifyou live in a humid environment.. from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Sep 29 07:11:30 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:11:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF0A51.CB3F1140" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF0A51.CB3F1140 Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to agree with =your assessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call the =parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in =its action. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he was after. I =guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't =have much use for the critters in my little kennel of cane. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be be =fast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us =to believe thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain =hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a =properly executed"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the =rod willnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short =answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a =longer or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF0A51.CB3F1140 Terry, "Off the = this very public place, I would have to agree with your assessment of = "paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't = much use for the critters in my little kennel of =cane. Bill -----Original = DNHayashi@aol.com = Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Rod = theoriesAdding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and = would no longer be be fast, and whothe hell would buy a short = and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a = modern rodbuilding.DNHayashi@aol.com = Darryl ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF0A51.CB3F1140-- from dickfuhrman@rheemote.com Wed Sep 29 08:02:00 1999 Subject: groove in plane Neophyte,The approximately 3/4" wide X .005" deep groove lengthwise in the soleof a plane allows the plane blade to be set so that it doesn't come intocontact with the planing form. The blade is set to the depth of thegroove so that it is just flush with the remainder of the sole. Thissaves on sharpening of the blade and dressing of the forms. Also, you don't want to put a lot of pressure on the plane whileplaning. If you have to put pressure on the plane, your blade is dull.These blades are exceptionally sharp. They cut by themselves. Veryfine shavings. Remember, we are trying to hold precise measurementshere. There are six strips that have to be made the same for eachsection of a hex shaped rod. Check the archives and some of the books, they explain this better thanI do.Hope this helpsDick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net LA>I can't understand how a groove in the sole of a plane can helpplanning. HLA>the pressure of the sole would help.LA>Neophite here from Minneapolis from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Sep 29 08:55:38 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:55:19 +0800 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_40565176==_.ALT" --=====================_40565176==_.ALT Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what a parais. TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to agree with yourassessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call the parabolic roda"paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in its action. Butnymphing and roll-casting was not what he was after. I guess theparabolicrod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't have much use forthecritters in my little kennel of cane. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: TERENCE ACKLANDhexagon@odyssee.net> DNHayashi@aol.com> Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be be fast,and who the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it? The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve that advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. from previous posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwill not roll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answeris on a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer orslower rod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_40565176==_.ALT Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it'sthe strength of what a para is.TY Terry, "Off the record"inthis very public place, I would have to agree with your assessment of the "paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in its them--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennel ofcane. cheers,Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND DNHayashi@aol.com Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.comwrote: SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.uswrites: making my brain that a properlyexecuted because withoutit the rod will thing? answer is slower /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_40565176==_.ALT-- from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 29 10:03:17 1999 1999 11:02:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Rod taper theories Question: Is a "hinge" a high stress point or a low stress point. Theparabolic has athicker middle than a straight taper so it is low stress in the middle. Ithought the"hinge" was a place in the rod that had been made thinner than would beexpected toproduce a high stress point. Did I miss something? Would have researched the archives but I can't get to either the archivesor taperslately. Regardsa,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comavyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it'sthe strength of what a para is. TY Terry, "Off the record" inthis very public place, I would have to agree with your assessment of the"hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call the parabolic rod a"paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in itsaction. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he wasafter. I guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks likethem--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennel ofcane. cheers,Bill -----Original Message----- hexagon@odyssee.net> DNHayashi@aol.comDNHayashi@aol.com> Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.uswrites: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwillnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Wed Sep 29 11:02:50 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id LAA10763 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id LAA00969 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories wugate.wustl.edu id LAA15744 The way I've come to understand the term, a parabolic rod has a large region of relatively high stress in the Butt section.Example: Paul Young Para15: http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/Graphs/py15la.gif A hinge expressly for roll-casting can be put in an otherwise fasttaper rod. It is a narrow region of relatively high stress just above the grip. Example:Wayne Cattanch 7ft 4wt: http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/Graphs/cat724.gif I hope this helps.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote: Question: Is a "hinge" a high stress point or a low stress point. Theparabolic hasa thicker middle than a straight taper so it is low stress in the middle. Ithought the"hinge" was a place in the rod that had been made thinner than would beexpect ed to produce a high stress point. Did I miss something? Would have researched the archives but I can't get to either the archivesor taperslately. Regardsa,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.comavyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it'sthe strength of what a para is. TY Terry, "Off the record" inthis very public place, I would have to agree with your assessment of the"hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call the parabolic rod a"paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in itsaction. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he wasafter. I guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks likethem--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennel ofcane. cheers,Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLANDhexagon@odyssee.net> DNHayashi@aol.comDNHayashi@aol.com>Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.uswrites: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwillnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer orslowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from fiveside@net-gate.com Wed Sep 29 16:08:57 1999 ns1.net-gate.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27318 for; Subject: Tung Oil Finish To the List The moisture numbers are pretty convincing. Think I'll try a Tung or otherrubbed finish with wax this winter. Believe Sir D and others had inputs onthis subject which I lost. How would products marketed for gun stockswork?Any problems with using Tung Oil on a previously-varnished rod afterstripping? Would appreciate words of wisdom from experiencedpractioners onthe process and also about how to manage the guide wraps, inscribing etc.Perhaps others would also. Thanks in advance. Bill from bob@downandacross.com Wed Sep 29 17:32:53 1999 (envelope- from bob@downandacross.com) Subject: fly lines boundary="=====================_6285538==_.ALT" --=====================_6285538==_.ALT Has anyone tried the Payne lines advertised from their website. http://www.efpayne.com They are supposed to be for "fine bamboo rods."At only $36.95 I wonder if they are better than the average line when used on a bamboo rod.Thanks,Bob Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com --=====================_6285538==_.ALT Has anyone tried the Payne lines advertised from their website. http://www.efpayne.comThey are supposed to be for "fine bamboo rods." At only $36.95 Iwonder ifthey are better than the average line when used on a bamboo rod. Thanks,Bob Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com --=====================_6285538==_.ALT-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Sep 29 18:00:21 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 07:00:02 +0800 Subject: Re: fly lines types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_73255930==_.ALT" --=====================_73255930==_.ALT Aren't they the ones with the claim to fame that they're colour co- ordinated? Tony At 06:29 PM 9/29/99 -0700, bob maulucci wrote: Has anyone tried the Payne lines advertised from their website.http://www.efpayne.com They are supposed to be for "fine bamboo rods."Atonly$36.95 I wonder if they are better than the average line when used on abamboo rod. Thanks,Bob Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_73255930==_.ALT Aren't they the ones with the claim to fame that they're colourco-ordinated? Tony At 06:29 PM 9/29/99 -0700, bob maulucci wrote: Has anyone tried the Payne lines advertised from their website. http://www.efpayne.comThey are supposed to be for "fine bamboo rods." At only $36.95 Iwonder ifthey are better than the average line when used on a bamboo rod. Thanks,Bob Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_73255930==_.ALT-- from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Wed Sep 29 19:49:31 1999 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Rod taper theories Hi Tony,I'm back from the annual Pemberton pilgrimige where I finallygot to give the "Perfectionist" a cast on the water. Alas I didn't manageto hook a fish but even the graphite boys were impressed with the rod...andthat was after they'd cast it. There's just no telling with some people isthere? Regards Mike Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what a parais. TY from seanmcs@ar.com.au Wed Sep 29 20:14:13 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:10:16 +1000 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Regarding this question of the hinge, I looked at the Para 15 taper andfail to see any concavity in the butt or any other area. Moreimportantly, in casting a Para 15 (made by Todd Young) in the last threeyears, I could not imagine the word weak having any application. It is asupple and relatively powerful rod. Could someone explain how the wordweak is being used? Sean "Roberts, Michael" wrote: Hi Tony,I'm back from the annual Pemberton pilgrimige where I finallygot to give the "Perfectionist" a cast on the water. Alas I didn't manageto hook a fish but even the graphite boys were impressed with therod...andthat was after they'd cast it. There's just no telling with some people isthere? Regards Mike Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what a parais. TY from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Sep 29 20:40:28 1999 with ESMTP id ;Thu, 30 Sep 1999 01:39:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Finish Bill, I did a tung oil finish on a South Bend Mod. 59 that I refinished waybefore I started making my Sir D. It originally had a thick varnish jobthat was checking badly so I stripped it off. I put three coats of oilon it and rubbed it in so it got warm to the touch. I think the oilfinish looks really good and as long as I keep it waxed it seems to keepthe moisture out. For the wraps and the ferrules I just brushed on theold Man O' War after the tung oil set up. I had it with me at the"mini" but never took it out. I didn't think anyone would beinterested... Next time we meet I'll show it to you. Birchwood Casey makes a product called Tru Oil that looks good onstocks. I redid a rifle with it but I've never tried it on a rod. Iused Behr's (Home Depot) Tung oil finish on my South Bend, which I thinkis a mixture of tung oil and varnish (as is the BC product, I believe). I had quite a bit left over after a furniture refinishing project andtook a gamble. I'm happy with the results. Bottom line... Give it a try and see what you think. Good luck, Dennis Bill Fink wrote: To the ListThe moisture numbers are pretty convincing. Think I'll try a Tung orotherrubbed finish with wax this winter. Believe Sir D and others had inputsonthis subject which I lost. How would products marketed for gun stockswork?Any problems with using Tung Oil on a previously-varnished rod afterstripping? Would appreciate words of wisdom from experiencedpractioners onthe process and also about how to manage the guide wraps, inscribingetc.Perhaps others would also. Thanks in advance. Bill -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from lpiccoli@us.ibm.com Wed Sep 29 21:32:16 1999 0400 WAA162770 0400 1999)) id852567FC.000DEB6A ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:32:02 -0400 Subject: Help with Finishing Hello, I would like to thank this group for the quick responces I got to thelast question I asked, you guy's and gals are GREAT! Now for the next question, what is the best way to apply the finish to anewlywrapped bamboo flyrod? I purchased an old Horrocks Ibbotson flyrod andstrippedit down to the bare bamboo, I then rewrapped all the guides, as well as allofthe decorative wraps. I am now at the stage where I need to apply thefinish.What type should I use, and how do I apply it?With a brush while the rod is rotating? ThanksThe Amatuer Rod BuilderLou from dmanders@telusplanet.net Wed Sep 29 21:44:43 1999 don") bysmtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id ; Wed, 29 Sep 199920:44:08 - 0600 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Onis, If you graph the rod, you will find that the rate of change of the tapervaries in a couple of places. from the tip to 35" the rate of change isapprox. 0.017"/5" of rod travel. At 35" the rate drops to 0.012"/5" of rodtravel. A further drop in taper exists @ 55" where the taper is now @0.008"/5" of rod travel.These drops would be higher stress areas or areas where the cane shouldbend more for a given load.I've built 2 Para 15's. They cast strongly and landed fish easily. They areno wimps. A friend used his on # 2 weighted Wooly Buggers on the BowRiver.He was surprised at how easy it cast these large flies. Both the rod I ownand his has landed rainbows exceeding 7 lbs. A hinge is simply an length of the rod where the rate is change is lessthan the area above it viewed from the tip. While "hinge" may describe theaction, truly its a droop. It is certainly not a limp inch in the middle. Don At 11:02 AM 9/29/99 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Question: Is a "hinge" a high stress point or a low stress point. Theparabolic has a thicker middle than a straight taper so it is low stress inthe middle. I thought the "hinge" was a place in the rod that had beenmade thinner than would be expected to produce a high stress point. Did Imiss something? Would have researched the archives but I can't get to either the archivesor tapers lately. Regardsa,Onis from irish-george@pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 22:01:14 1999 Subject: Lathe parts, lathes, and tooling... boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF0AB5.7D58E780" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF0AB5.7D58E780 I hope this isn't out of place on the listserver, but I think I had =previously suggested Al Babin (MBabin@snet.net) on eBay as a potential =source of parts for South Bend Lathes...especially the flat belts. If I =did, I retract any recommendation as I filed USPS form 8165 (mail fraud)=on two eBay transactions with Al...the problem was non-delivery (12 wk. =have elapsed) in one instance and wrong part (8 wk.) with no attempt to =correct in ensuing month in the other instance. If you do choose to =deal with him, or his other eBay ID (ToolZone@snet.net), be careful. George ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF0AB5.7D58E780 I hope this isn't out of place on = listserver, but I think I had previously suggested Al Babin (MBabin@snet.net) on eBay as a = retract any recommendation as I filed USPS form 8165 (mail fraud) on two= transactions with Al...the problem was non-delivery (12 wk. have = instance and wrong part (8 wk.) with no attempt to correct in ensuing = careful. George ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF0AB5.7D58E780-- from BambooRods@aol.com Wed Sep 29 22:36:58 1999 Subject: Re: impregnation weight gain Date: Sat Jun 20 5:05:01 1998 Subject: Re: Re:Impregnation FYI Years ago, I used Deks Olje on teak trim on boats. I quit using itbecause it tended to darken considerably after 6 months or so in the sun. Arod would not, of course, get this kind of exposure, and it's more thanpossible that the formula has changed from 15 years ago. The stuff DIDgivea good, hard finish. I'll be interested to hear about long-term use.Please keep us posted. BTW, I've also used Epiphanes varnish on boats, andit's pretty good stuff. Hank Holland I used Deks Olje #2. It is my understanding that this finishing methodwasaccidentally revealed to the list and I have been asked not to specifydetails on a general posting to the list. The original description is inthe archives if you choose to look it up. from mrj@aa.net Wed Sep 29 23:35:05 1999 Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:05:56 -0700 Subject: RE: Resorcinol white? I did this. You don't (or at least I didn't) end up with white glue butrather pink glue. For a blond rod it might be OK. I was experimenting and Ipicked a flamed rod to try it on. I guess I did not really think that onethrough. I don't think I will try it again as my glue lines are gettingbetter with each rod and my last rod is really acceptable (in regards tovisible glue lines). To be honest I kind of like the dark tone of the glue.The formula out of the Garrison book is as follows:"add a tip of ateaspoon's worth of titanium dioxide to the pot of mixed glue. Then addapprox. 1/4 teaspoon of inert mustard colored powder and mix thoroughly"Iam guessing that he is talking about a pot of glue enough for a 2 tip rodbut it is really anyones guess. These components can be found in Artstores. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: Resorcinol white? John Zimny mentions in the FAQs section on adhesives on the Rodmakerssite a way to make a white Resorciol and it references page 94 of "thebook" which I assume is Garrisson and Carmichael's book. I currentlydon't have access to the book. Anyone out there know how to do this??? ThanksJeremy from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 09:17:45 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:17:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Help with Finishing boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF0B2C.92EAEF40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF0B2C.92EAEF40 Lou, I am assuming you don't have a dip-tank (or you wouldn't be asking the =question), so brushing is the way to go.The procedure is simpler than you might imagine. I have used the =technique for a bunch o' years, now, and have no plans to change. The =results can be every bit as good as dipping. Here's what you do: Buy a selection of small, round, red-sable, artists' brushes (no larger =than #5). You'll use the smaller brush to apply 6-8 coats to each of =the wraps, and then to finish the tip section. The larger brush will be =used to apply finish to the mid and butt sections. Use a single-edge =razor blade on the larger brush and slice slightly more than an 1/8" off =its tip. You want to remove the very soft point to create a "chisel =edge." This will help you to "pull" the varnish down more efficiently =when applying finish to the larger sections of the rod. Buy a pint (if you can) of some high quality polyurethane, "high-gloss" =finish. The brand doesn't matter a great deal. Although there are some =differences among poly finishes, these aren't significant enough to =matter much in terms of your practical needs. (I imagine you'll hear =some other folks become excited about this last statement.) Pour a small amount of varnish into a little plastic container, and thin =slightly with mineral spirits. This will be used only for the first two =coats on the wraps, and the first coat on the cane. Apply the thinned =varnish to the wraps using the small brush by rotating the section with =your left hand while holding the brush steady in your right. Try to =avoid allowing the varnish to run off the wraps onto the cane (a small =amount won't matter, though you don't want this to begin building up =very much). Upon completing each coat on the wraps, you want to hold =the section parallel with the floor and rotate about a quarter of a turn =every 15 seconds or so until the varnish has taken a set. This won't =take long. Then, hang the section until the varnish dries and is ready = There will be small particles of dust (as well as fuzz from the wraps =themselves) that will begin to show almost at once. Do not attempt to =remove these messy little areas until you have applied at least 4-5 more =coats of full-strength finish and allowed the section to cure for =several days. Then, you can use your single-edge razor blade to slice =off the offending particles cleanly. Take care doing this (obviously), =and then sand lightly with a very small piece of 600 grit wet-or-dry =sandpaper. Use mineral spirits as the lubricant. You'll now need =perhaps only 2 more coats of finish on the wraps, and, again, a light =sanding. Now, begins the only part of the process that differs from dip-tank =procedures. When brush-finishing a rod, you want to remember that you =are only focusing your attention upon one small area at a time--moving =sequentially, from guide-to-guide, down the rod. Prepare the surface of =the cane by wiping it down with mineral spirits and carefully blowing =the dust out of each of the snake guides. Although you want to do =everything you can to keep the surfaces dust-free, some dust is bound to =find its way into your work. Do not worry about this too much, because =you will be sanding lightly between coats, as well as buffing and =polishing the final coat anyway. (The same would be true with dip-tank =procedures.) Lastly, before beginning, wash your hands and blow-dry to =remove dust from your fingers. Now, take the small round brush and use the thinned varnish to apply a = rod at maybe a 45 degree angle with your left hand (I assume), changing =your grip as the varnishing area moves down the rod, and begin stroking =downward toward the first snake guide from the tip-top. Stroke =longitudinally only, turning the section as you cover each of the flats. =Watch closely, to see that you cover the surfaces completely, while =also pulling the finish down toward the guide below. Do not allow any =drips or runs. Proper viscosity of the varnish and proper "loading" of =the brush will determine your results. Obviously, a little =trial-and-error is necessary, but not much. The learning-curve is =pretty steep. As you get to each of the guides, be sure to pull the =varnish down over the wraps (as well as under the guide itself). Take =special care not to create drips in these little "corner" areas. =Consider each guide and its wraps as its own little area to finish. =Then, re-load your brush, and "re-group" your attention to the next =section of cane, pulling downward toward the next guide. As the space between the guides (as well as the diameter of the rod =itself) increases, you will not be able to cover the whole area between =guides with a single loading of the brush. Apply only as much varnish =all around the rod as will provide a uniform thickness (while avoiding =runs), and do not attempt to pull the varnish down so far that it thins =out the film. This will only cause problems when you start in again =with a freshly loaded brush. The technique for picking-up again with =the re-loaded brush is to apply the first strokes (brushing with the =usual motion down toward the guide below) a few inches below where you=just left off. Then, begin blending upward into the area where you left =off, with long and very light strokes. Take care not to leave "globs" =at the ends of these upward strokes, as these will create runs after a =moment or two. Again, you will learn very quickly how to control this. =Now, begin the downward strokes again, pulling the finish again into the =guide below. And so on, and so on, until you reach the ferrule. =Overall, the more you learn how to work quickly, the better will be your =ability to obtain a uniform thickness in the film. Apply the one =thinned coat, and then two only slightly-thinned finish coats. (The =first of these finish coats should be applied within 24 hours or so, and =the second, only after the rod has begun to cure for perhaps 4 or 5 =days, and been sanded.) You'll find that slightly-thinned varnish pulls =out more easily, leaving you with fewer runs. The "downside" here, =however, is that you may be tempted to pull the varnish out too far with =each brush load, and create an area that quickly becomes too "dry" for =effective blending of the nest brush load. You'll soon find the best =balance between viscosity and technique. The only area that may create headaches is the last section from the =stripping-guide to the cork handle, and the reason is that, because of =the larger diameter and the greater length, your attention is focused on =an area that seems unlike what you've been dealing with. And it is =different. You will be using your larger brush (the one with the ="chisel edge"), but even so, you also will be loading it more =frequently, and blending upward more frequently. Overall, the "problem" =is that obtaining a smooth and uniform film becomes somewhat more =difficult. Fear not. Everything looks much better upon drying, and =too, you will be sanding between the last coats (as well as buffing out =the final coat). Occasionally, you may see spots somewhere along the =length of the rod that really need to be refinished. If so, then =refinish the entire area between the two guides above and below the =trouble spot, sanding appropriately and applying the varnish just as you =had done before. In these cases, take care as you start and stop at = Lastly, the only piece in the procedure I have left out is what to do =with a section once you have reached the ferrule (or grip). Hold the =section parallel to the floor, gripping the ferrule with the fingers of =your left hand, and rotate the rod 1/4 turn every 15 seconds or so until =the varnish has begun to set somewhat--perhaps 5-8 minutes. Then, if a =tip section, hang it on a nail from its tip-top. If a mid or butt =section, stand it nearly upright against a wall. Allow the first coat =to dry for something less that 24 hours before re-coating. I usually do =not sand the varnish at all until after the first finish coat has begun =to cure (4 or 5 days), and even then, I worry only about the areas where =I can see dust or runs. Use a very small square of 1200 grit wet-or-dry =paper (dipping in mineral spirits for the lubricant), and take care to =sand only the flats. After this last coat has cured for ten days to two weeks, you can buff =and polish to whatever gloss you prefer. Here and there, you may find =some dust particles embedded in the varnish, but you need only sand =these out gently with 1200 grit paper and then proceed to the buffing. Please forgive me if, in an effort to be as complete as I could be, I =may have created the impression that brushing on a nice finish is a BIG =DEAL. I assure you, it is not. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Help with Finishing Hello, I would like to thank this group for the quick responces I =got to thelast question I asked, you guy's and gals are GREAT! Now for the next question, what is the best way to apply the finish =to a newlywrapped bamboo flyrod? I purchased an old Horrocks Ibbotson flyrod =and strippedit down to the bare bamboo, I then rewrapped all the guides, as well =as all ofthe decorative wraps. I am now at the stage where I need to apply =the finish.What type should I use, and how do I apply it?With a brush while the rod is rotating? ThanksThe Amatuer Rod BuilderLou ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF0B2C.92EAEF40 Lou, I am assuming you don't have a dip-tank= go.The procedure is simpler than you Here's what you do: Buy a selection of= brush to apply 6-8 coats to each of the wraps, and then to finish the = "pull" the varnish down more efficiently when applying finish = larger sections of the rod. Buy a pint (if you= poly finishes, these aren't significant enough to matter much in terms = about this last statement.) Pour a smallamount = into a little plastic container, and thin slightly with mineral = This will be used only for the first two coats on the wraps, and the = the cane (a small amount won't matter, though you don't want this to = to hold the section parallel with the floor and rotate about a quarter = another coat. There = particles of dust (as well as fuzz from the wraps themselves) that will = until you have applied at least 4-5 more coats of full-strength finish = single-edge razor blade to slice off the offending particles = care doing this (obviously), and then sand lightly with a very small = You'll now need perhaps only 2 more coats of finish on the wraps, and, = light sanding. Now, begins theonly = you want to remember that you are only focusing your attention upon one = area at a time--moving sequentially, from guide-to-guide, down the = Prepare the surface of the cane by wiping it down with mineral spirits = want to do everything you can to keep the surfaces dust-free, some dust = you will be sanding lightly between coats, as well as buffing and = remove dust from your fingers. Now, take thesmall = and use the thinned varnish to apply a first coat to the tip = the rod at maybe a 45= with your left hand (I assume), changing your grip as the varnishing = down the rod, and begin stroking downward toward the first snake guide = only, turning the section as you cover = special care not to create drips in these little "corner" = your attention to the next section of cane, pulling downward toward the = guide. As the spacebetween = (as well as the diameter of the rod itself) increases, you will not be = cover the whole area between guides with a single loading of the = thickness (while avoiding runs), and do not attempt to pull the varnish = again with the re-loaded brush is to apply the first strokes (brushing = blending upward into the area = "globs" at the ends of these upward strokes, as these will = Overall, the more you learn how to work quickly, the better will be your = then two only slightly-thinned finish coats. (The first of these finish = should be applied within 24 hours or so, and the second, only after the = to pull the varnish out too far with each brush load, and create an area = quickly becomes too "dry" for effective blending of the nest = technique. The only area that= headaches is the last section from the stripping-guide to the cork = the reason is that, because of the larger diameter and the greater = brush (the one with the "chisel edge"), but even so, you also = the "problem" is that obtaining a smooth and uniform film = drying, and too, you will be sanding between the last coats (as well as = the entire area between the two= and below the trouble spot, sanding appropriately and applying the = Lastly, the only = procedure I have left out is what to do with a section once you have = ferrule with the fingers of your left hand, and rotate the rod 1/4 turn = seconds or so until the varnish has begun to set somewhat--perhaps 5- the first coat to dry for something less that 24 hours before = I usually do not sand the varnish at all until after the first finish coat = to cure (4 or 5 days), and even then, I worry only = a very small square of 1200 grit = (dipping in mineral spirits for the lubricant), and take care to sand = flats. After this lastcoat = varnish, but you need only sand these out gently with 1200 grit paper = proceed to the buffing. Please forgive meif, = effort to be as complete as I could be, I may have created the = brushing on a nice finish is a BIG = not. Bill -----Original = lpiccoli@us.ibm.com = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu=<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:44 PMSubject: Help Finishing thelast question I asked, you guy's and gals are = newlywrapped bamboo flyrod? I purchased an old Horrocks Ibbotson= and strippedit down to the bare bamboo, I then rewrapped all the = as well as all ofthe decorative wraps. I am now at the stage = need to apply the finish.What type should I use, and how do I = it?With a brush while the rod is rotating?ThanksThe = Rod BuilderLou ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF0B2C.92EAEF40-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 09:33:24 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:33:12 -0400 Subject: Re: impregnation weight gain boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF0B2E.C5B77900" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF0B2E.C5B77900 Hank, I haven't tried it, but I'd bet that Deks Olje #1 would be a great =impregnating material. The stuff fairly reeks with phenols, and its =viscosity is about like that of water. As to the darkening you =mentioned, I found (on boats) that if you apply Deks Olje #2 as a top =coat over the #1, you get a really tough finish with nice gloss and =almost no darkening. (Course, most boat folks don't like the gloss =effect on their teak). I suppose there must be some UV filters in the = The only "downside" with the #2 is that there's something weird about =its leveling characteristics. That is, it doesn't set-up quickly, but =instead, it levels, and levels, and levels until you're left with a very =fine film. This is generally good, but it does create something of a =problem on vertical surfaces. One might need to do something to adjust =the withdrawal rate on a dipping tank. What, I wouldn't know, since I =don't dip my rods. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: impregnation weight gain FYI Years ago, I used Deks Olje on teak trim on boats. I quit =using itbecause it tended to darken considerably after 6 months or so in the = Arod would not, of course, get this kind of exposure, and it's more =thanpossible that the formula has changed from 15 years ago. The stuff =DIDgivea good, hard finish. I'll be interested to hear about long-term =use.Please keep us posted. BTW, I've also used Epiphanes varnish on =boats, andit's pretty good stuff. Hank Holland I used Deks Olje #2. It is my understanding that this finishing =method wasaccidentally revealed to the list and I have been asked not to =specifydetails on a general posting to the list. The original description =is inthe archives if you choose to look it up. Hank, I haven't tried it,= the darkening you mentioned, I found (on boats) that if you apply Deks = as a top coat over the #1, you get a really tough finish with nice gloss = The only = levels, and levels, and levels until you're left with a very fine = This is generally good, but it does create something of a problem on = = rods. Bill -----Original = BambooRods@aol.com rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu=<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 29, 1999 8:46 PMSubject: Re: = weight gain to darken considerably after 6 months or so in the sun. Arod = not, of course, get this kind of exposure, and it's more = that this finishing method wasaccidentally revealed to the list = have been asked not to specifydetails on a general posting to = Hall ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF0B2E.C5B77900-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 09:41:19 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 10:41:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF0B2F.DEBD9C80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF0B2F.DEBD9C80 Tony, Depending entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes indeed. =Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any rod. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02 AMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of =what a para is. TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to =agree with your assessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call =the parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designed =weakness in its action. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he =was after. I guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks like =them--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennel of =cane. cheers, Bill Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no = the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll = The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' = advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific = Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is = previous posts by Sir D among others I had assumed = "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because = roll cast well. Are you talking about the same = You have to know when it is helpful and when it is = on a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll = rod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't = Darryl =/************************************************************************=*/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It =/************************************************************************= ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF0B2F.DEBD9C80 Tony, Dependingentirely = any rod. Bill -----Original = HARMS1@prodigy.net = Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02 AMSubject: Re:Rod = theoriesTake it easy, the hinge isn't a weak = it's the strength of what a para =is.TY record" in this very public place, I would have to agree = the parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of = place--some folks like them--but I don't have much use for the = in my little kennel of cane.cheers, Bill Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 = theoriesAdding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would = the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to = The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for = advances have been made in modern =rodbuilding. wrote: =/*******************************************************************=******/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything.= =It/************************************************************= = ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF0B2F.DEBD9C80-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Sep 30 10:20:11 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:19:51 +0800 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_22555011==_.ALT" --=====================_22555011==_.ALT Bill, Actually the more I think about it the more I'm sure the term "hinge" is abitof a misnomer. Then the term para is as well so why be fussy now? :-)Hinge sort of indicates some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where ascorrectlyplaced it's more of a modification of the action in a localised area. I guessthe term is coined due to how the stresses look on paper but it's not muchof aterm in the field IMHO.The term must scare hell out of people coming across it for the first time.Ido remember somebody asking if it was a mechanical fixture on the is listawhile back. Sorry who ever it was but it's a good example of what I mean. Tony At 10:38 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony, Depending entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes indeed. Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any rod. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Tony Young avyoung@iinet.net.au> HARMS1@prodigy.net> Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what aparais. TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to agree withyourassessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call the parabolicrod a"paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in its action. Butnymphing and roll-casting was not what he was after. I guess theparabolicrod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't have much use forthecritters in my little kennel of cane. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: TERENCE ACKLANDhexagon@odyssee.net> DNHayashi@aol.com> Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast,and who the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it? The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve that advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brain hurt. from previous posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that a properlyexecuted "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwill not roll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answeris on a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer orslower rod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_22555011==_.ALT Bill, general. Actually the more I think about it the more I'm sure the term"hinge" is a bit of a misnomer. Then the term para is as wellso why be fussy now? :-)Hinge sort of indicates some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where ascorrectly placed it's more of a modification of the action in a localisedarea. I guess the term is coined due to how the stresses look on paperbut it's not much of a term in the field IMHO.The term must scare hell out of people coming across it for the firsttime. I do remember somebody asking if it was a mechanical fixture on theis list a while back. Sorry who ever it was but it's a good example ofwhat I mean. Tony At 10:38 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony, Depending entirely upon how downfall of any rod. cheers,Bill -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young HARMS1@prodigy.net Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02AMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what apara is.TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to Marinaroused to call the parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because has its place--some folks like them--but I don't have much use for thecritters in my little kennel of cane. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast, and who the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it? The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve that advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.comwrote: writes: making my brain that a properlyexecuted because withoutit the rod will thing? answer is slower /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_22555011==_.ALT-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 10:28:17 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:27:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0059_01BF0B36.66D77900" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BF0B36.66D77900 Sean, Certainly, in all cases when one uses the word "weak," the term is =relative. When using the word "weak" to describe the effect of a hinge =in a rod, we mean only that some particular area along the length of the =rod in question is weaker than that same area would have been, had the =hinge not been there. A hinge necessarily creates this effect. =Certainly too, in absolute terms, nobody would describe a "Para 15" as a =weak rod. And that's not what I meant to imply either. But just =speculate upon the action of a "Para 15" if no hinge had been designed =into its taper at all. Probably, such a rod would become all but ="un-castable." So, a hinge can be designed into a rod for a reason (depending upon how = if a hinge is designed into a rod inadvertently (as frequently happens, = commonly described by the usual series of "step-downs"), this effect can=only create corresponding areas of relative weakness. Each of these =steps will create a little "pocket" in the profile of the taper, as each =step becomes a hinge (whether large or small). It follows that each =area of concavity will become relatively weaker than would have been the=case without such a step-down. Depending upon a several other features =of the rod's design, this could matter a lot, a little (or, with luck, =perhaps not at all). In all, I believe one should work to AVOID all hinges, unless one means =to create a particular casting effect. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- ; Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Regarding this question of the hinge, I looked at the Para 15 taper =andfail to see any concavity in the butt or any other area. Moreimportantly, in casting a Para 15 (made by Todd Young) in the last =threeyears, I could not imagine the word weak having any application. It =is asupple and relatively powerful rod. Could someone explain how the =wordweak is being used? Sean "Roberts, Michael" wrote: I'm back from the annual Pemberton pilgrimige where I =finallygot to give the "Perfectionist" a cast on the water. Alas I =didn't manageto hook a fish but even the graphite boys were impressed with the =rod...andthat was after they'd cast it. There's just no telling with some =people isthere? Regards Mike Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of =what a parais. TY ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BF0B36.66D77900 Sean, Certainly, in all = "weak" to describe the effect of a hinge in a rod, we mean = some particular area along the length of the rod in question is weaker than that same areawould = had the hinge not been = = "un-castable." So, a hinge can be= if a hinge is = inadvertently (as frequently happens, in hundreds of rods, the= "step-downs"), this =effect can only create corresponding areas= of these steps will create a little "pocket" in the profile of = that each area of concavity will become relatively weaker than would = = of the rod's design, this could matter a lot, a little (or, with luck, = not at all). In all, I believeone = to AVOID all hinges, unless one meansto = particular casting effect. Bill -----Original = Michael.Roberts@health.w= <Michael.Roberts@health.w= 'avyoung@iinet.net.au' = <Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 29, 1999 6:26 PMSubject: Re: Rod = theories this question of the hinge, I looked at the Para 15 taper = any concavity in the butt or any other area. Moreimportantly, in = a Para 15 (made by Todd Young) in the last threeyears, I could = relatively powerful rod. Could someone explain how the wordweak = = I'm back from the annual Pemberton pilgrimige where I = TY ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01BF0B36.66D77900-- from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 10:37:17 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:37:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Finish boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF0B37.B01F2080" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF0B37.B01F2080 Bill, Gun stock finishes are generally excellent for fly rod applications. =Although these are usually meant to be rubbed onto (into) a stock, I =don't see why they couldn't as easily be used in the dip-tank. I would =avoid tung oil, however, unless the product is "polymerized" (contains =polyurethane or other resins). Pure tung oil (as is the case with pure =linseed oil) is excellent for many purposes, but it provides almost no =protection against moisture. On the other hand, couple good coats of =carnuba wax can solve this problem. (I know, I know. We just went =through all this about wax.) cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Bill Fink Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:38 PMSubject: Tung Oil Finish The moisture numbers are pretty convincing. Think I'll try a Tung =or otherrubbed finish with wax this winter. Believe Sir D and others had =inputs onthis subject which I lost. How would products marketed for gun =stocks work?Any problems with using Tung Oil on a previously-varnished rod afterstripping? Would appreciate words of wisdom from experienced =practioners onthe process and also about how to manage the guide wraps, inscribing =etc. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF0B37.B01F2080 Bill, Gun stockfinishes = rubbed onto (into) a stock, I don't see why they couldn't as easily be = oil (as is the case with pure linseed oil) is excellent for many = wax.) Bill -----Original = Bill Fink <fiveside@net- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:38 PMSubject: Tung = = or otherrubbed finish with wax this winter. Believe Sir D and = inputs onthis subject which I lost. How would products marketed = stocks work?Any problems with using Tung Oil on a = rod afterstripping? Would appreciate words of wisdom from = practioners onthe process and also about how to manage the guide = inscribing etc.Perhaps others would also. Thanks in = ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BF0B37.B01F2080-- from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Sep 30 10:37:19 1999 batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id KAA14675 for (8.8.4/8.6.8) withSMTP id KAA10717 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 Subject: Re: Help with Finishing Lou, Well I'm the last person to be giving rod finishing advise but here goes. Since you have already wrapped the guides, you really can't brush ona thick finish because you will get runs and drips at the guides.Your choices are to either dip the rod, or apply several coats of a thin finish like a tung oil/varnish blend, that you can apply with your finger or a clean rag. In either case, first seal the wraps with some thinned spar varnish (several coats.) I made a dip tube out of a 1/2 inch copper pipe (capped of course) that I hammered into a oval shape to admit the guides. It only takesa pint of varnish to fill it. You can use either a spar or polyurethanevarnish. Remember, polyurethane varnish sticks to most things, butfew things stick to poly, so it has to go on last. Others on the list(eg. Darryl Hayashida) have built drain tubes that don't need the overheadroom to draw the rod sections out. You can find this stuff in the archives if you are persistent:http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/rma/rmsearch.htmlDarryl goes ahead and tries things that others say can't work and I'mglad he's back on the list! If you want to rub on thin coats, lots of people like Birchwood CaseyTruOil gunstock finish. There are lots of ways to do this and I'm sure someone will have betterand more detailed advise.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot- warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 lpiccoli@us.ibm.com wrote: Hello, I would like to thank this group for the quick responces I got tothelast question I asked, you guy's and gals are GREAT! Now for the next question, what is the best way to apply the finish to anewlywrapped bamboo flyrod? I purchased an old Horrocks Ibbotson flyrod andstrippedit down to the bare bamboo, I then rewrapped all the guides, as well asall ofthe decorative wraps. I am now at the stage where I need to apply thefinish.What type should I use, and how do I apply it?With a brush while the rod is rotating? ThanksThe Amatuer Rod BuilderLou from HARMS1@prodigy.net Thu Sep 30 10:59:19 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:59:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF0B3A.C51416A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF0B3A.C51416A0 Tony, You're surely right about all this. The term, "hinge" is a can o' = do with taper design. You suggest that perhaps the term really is only =a figure of speech, describing how certain areas of a given taper might =look when plotted on paper. I think this would be a pretty fair =application of the term, soas not to scare off the wannabe builder. At the same time, I have cast a goodly number of rods whose "hinged =actions" are no figure of speech. These rods seem to want to give-up =the potential to do their jobs long before need be, and one can actually =feel the "wishy-washy, floppy" action you speak of along certain areas =in the taper. Some have truly weak areas in the butt, some in the =mid-section, and some in the tip. Now, admittedly, not all weaknesses =are the result of an actual hinge. But, apart from the figurative =language of design-theory jargon, hinges can also be real. Now, I think I'm more than all played-out on this topic. I've carried =on too long already. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc: avyoung@iinet.net.au ; =Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:28 AMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Bill, general. Actually the more I think about it the more I'm sure the term ="hinge" is a bit of a misnomer. Then the term para is as well so why be =fussy now? :-)Hinge sort of indicates some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where as =correctly placed it's more of a modification of the action in a =localised area. I guess the term is coined due to how the stresses look =on paper but it's not much of a term in the field IMHO.The term must scare hell out of people coming across it for the =first time. I do remember somebody asking if it was a mechanical fixture=on the is list a while back. Sorry who ever it was but it's a good =example of what I mean. Tony Tony, Depending entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes =indeed. Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any rod. cheers, Bill Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the =strength of what a para is.TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would =have to agree with your assessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used =to call the parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designed =weakness in its action. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he =was after. I guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks like =them--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennel of =cane. Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would = the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to = The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for = advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific = Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is = previous posts by Sir D among others I had = "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod = roll cast well. Are you talking about the same = You have to know when it is helpful and when it is = on a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll = rod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you = =/************************************************************************=*/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It =/************************************************************************= =/************************************************************************=*/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It =/************************************************************************= ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF0B3A.C51416A0 Tony, You're surelyright = nearly everything else to do with taper = suggest that perhaps the term really is only a figure of speech, = this would be a pretty fair application of the term, soas not to scare = wannabe builder. At the same time,I = goodly number of rods whose the potential to do their jobs long before need be, and one can actually = the "wishy-washy, floppy" action you speak of along certain = design-theory jargon, hinges can also be real. Now, I think I'mmore = already. Bill -----Original = Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:28 AMSubject: Re: Rod= theoriesBill,for sure but I'm assuming a = taper and not just the term in general. Actually the more I think = the more I'm sure the term "hinge" is a bit of a misnomer. = the term para is as well so why be fussy now? :-)Hinge sort of = some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where as correctly placed it's = modification of the action in a localised area. I guess the term is = due to how the stresses look on paper but it's not much of a term in = field IMHO.The term must scare hell out of people coming across = the first time. I do remember somebody asking if it was a mechanical = on the is list a while back. Sorry who ever it was but it's a good = of what I mean.TonyAt 10:38 AM 9/30/99 = WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes = Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any = Bill Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Wednesday, September 29, = theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's = strength of what a para is.TY Terry,"Off the record" in this very public = parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly = parabolic rod has its place--some folks like = don't have much use for the critters in my little = cane.cheers, Bill = Subject: Re: Rod taper =theoriesAdding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod = the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect = The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for = advances have been made in modern =rodbuilding. wrote: =/***************************************************************= Young Visit my web site = this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in = = =It/**************************************************************= =/*******************************************************************=******/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything.= =It/************************************************************= = ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF0B3A.C51416A0-- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au Thu Sep 30 12:02:26 1999 Fri, 1 Oct 1999 01:05:04 +0800 (WST)(envelope- from tyoung@perth.dialix.com.au) Subject: Re: Rod taper theories You'd get the impression paras are the somehow "wild cats" with no realuse they way they seem to be beaten like a red haired orphan in the lastfew days. I'm not the only one who rabbits on about the wonders of theDriggs,the outstanding charistics of the Para 15 the pocket rocketness of the PHY Midge, the exquisit delights of the Perfectionist. Hell, I'm gettingall figity just thinking about them.These are all great dry fly rods, as well as being excellent nymphers.What's not to like? I've made two Driggs with GS guides as well as a fewmore with the conventional hardware and recently a Para 15 with GSguidesas well. There's something nice about the whisper the line makes as itshoots through these guides that makes a person go all gooey in the legs. The world needs more "hinges" I say. Tony On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Onis, If you graph the rod, you will find that the rate of change of the tapervaries in a couple of places. from the tip to 35" the rate of change isapprox. 0.017"/5" of rod travel. At 35" the rate drops to 0.012"/5" of rodtravel. A further drop in taper exists @ 55" where the taper is now @0.008"/5" of rod travel.These drops would be higher stress areas or areas where the cane shouldbend more for a given load.I've built 2 Para 15's. They cast strongly and landed fish easily. They areno wimps. A friend used his on # 2 weighted Wooly Buggers on the BowRiver.He was surprised at how easy it cast these large flies. Both the rod Iownand his has landed rainbows exceeding 7 lbs. A hinge is simply an length of the rod where the rate is change is lessthan the area above it viewed from the tip. While "hinge" may describetheaction, truly its a droop. It is certainly not a limp inch in the middle. Don At 11:02 AM 9/29/99 -0400, k5vkq@ix.netcom.com wrote:Question: Is a "hinge" a high stress point or a low stress point. Theparabolic has a thicker middle than a straight taper so it is low stressinthe middle. I thought the "hinge" was a place in the rod that had beenmade thinner than would be expected to produce a high stress point. DidImiss something? Would have researched the archives but I can't get to either thearchivesor tapers lately. Regardsa,Onis /***********************************************************************/ Q. How many Microsoft personel does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They change the new standard to "Darkness" Tony Younghttp://www.iinet.net.au/~mainpeak/flyrod.html /***********************************************************************/ from deholton@iafrica.com Thu Sep 30 13:26:40 1999 Subject: List What happened to the list - did I somehow get unsubscribed? from gwbarnes@gwi.net Thu Sep 30 14:15:32 1999 Subject: Power Backup Only remotely connected to rodmaking, but has anyone used CyberPowerfora power backup unit on their computer and what kind of success was foundwith the software? from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Sep 30 14:32:46 1999 Fri, 1 Oct 1999 03:32:26 +0800 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories types="text/plain,text/html";boundary="=====================_37708000==_.ALT" --=====================_37708000==_.ALT Agreed. Tony At 11:56 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony, You're surely right about all this. The term, "hinge" is a can o' worms. But then, so is nearly everything else to do with taper design. You suggest that perhaps the term really is only afigure of speech, describing how certain areas of a given taper mightlookwhen plotted on paper. I think this would be a pretty fair application ofthe term, soas not to scare off the wannabe builder. At the same time, I have cast a goodly number of rods whose "hingedactions"are no figure of speech. These rods seem to want to give-up thepotential todo their jobs long before need be, and one can actually feel the"wishy-washy, floppy" action you speak of along certain areas in thetaper. Some have truly weak areas in the butt, some in the mid-section, andsome inthe tip. Now, admittedly, not all weaknesses are the result of an actualhinge. But, apart from the figurative language of design-theory jargon,hinges can also be real. Now, I think I'm more than all played-out on this topic. I've carried ontoolong already. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Tony Young avyoung@iinet.net.au> HARMS1@prodigy.net> Cc: avyoung@iinet.net.auavyoung@iinet.net.au>Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:28 AM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Bill, general.Actually the more I think about it the more I'm sure the term "hinge" isabit of a misnomer. Then the term para is as well so why be fussy now?:-) Hinge sort of indicates some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where ascorrectly placed it's more of a modification of the action in a localisedarea. I guess the term is coined due to how the stresses look on paperbutit's not much of a term in the field IMHO. The term must scare hell out of people coming across it for the firsttime.I do remember somebody asking if it was a mechanical fixture on the islista while back. Sorry who ever it was but it's a good example of what Imean. Tony At 10:38 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony, Depending entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes indeed. Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any rod. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Tony Young avyoung@iinet.net.au> HARMS1@prodigy.net> Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what aparais. TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have to agree withyour assessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used to call theparabolicrod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in itsaction. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what he was after. Iguessthe parabolic rod has its place--some folks like them--but I don'thavemuch use for the critters in my little kennel of cane. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- From: TERENCE ACKLANDhexagon@odyssee.net> DNHayashi@aol.com> Cc:Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduRodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu> Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast,and who the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it? The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve that advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is making my brainhurt. from previous posts by Sir D among others I had assumed that aproperlyexecuted "hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod because without it the rodwill not roll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answeris on a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longer orslower rod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_37708000==_.ALT Agreed. Tony At 11:56 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony, You're surely right about all then, so is nearly everything else to term really is only a figure of speech, describing how certain areas of a a pretty fair application of the term, soas not to scare off the wannabebuilder. At the same time, I havecasta goodly number of rods rods seem to want to give-up the potential to do their jobs long beforeneed be, and one can actually feel the "wishy-washy, floppy" truly weak areas in the butt, some in the mid-section, and some in the design-theory jargon, hinges can also be real. Now, I think I'm more than all played-out on this cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Tony Young Cc:avyoung@iinet.net.au Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:28 AMSubject: Re: Rod taper theories Bill, general. Actuallythe more I think about it the more I'm sure the term "hinge" is abit of amisnomer. Then the term para is as well so why be fussy now? :-)Hinge sort of indicates some kind of wishwashy flopy thing where ascorrectly placedit's more of a modification of the action in a localised area. I guess theterm iscoined due to how the stresses look on paper but it's not much of a term inthe fieldIMHO.The term must scare hell out of people coming across it for the firsttime. I doremember somebody asking if it was a mechanical fixture on the is list awhile back.Sorry who ever it was but it's a good example of what I mean. Tony At 10:38 AM 9/30/99 -0700, WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Tony,Depending entirely upon how it is managed in a given rod, yes Otherwise, it can be the downfall of any rod.cheers, Bill -----Original Message- ---- Date: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Take it easy, the hinge isn't a weak spot it's the strength of what aparais.TY Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have toagree with call theparabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designedweakness in its parabolic rod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't have muchuse for thecritters in my little kennel of cane.cheers, Bill -----Original Message---- - Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Rod taper theories Adding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would no longer be befast, and who the hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it? The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading us tobelieve that advances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.comwrote: writes: making my brain that a properlyexecuted because withoutit the rod will thing? answer is slower /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_37708000==_.ALT-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Sep 30 15:39:59 1999 Fri, 1 Oct 1999 04:39:20 +0800 Subject: Re: Power Backup Could anybody replyingdo so on list or send me a CC please. Tony At 03:14 PM 9/30/99 -0400, George Barnes wrote:Only remotely connected to rodmaking, but has anyone used CyberPowerfora power backup unit on their computer and what kind of success wasfoundwith the software? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from brewer@teleport.com Thu Sep 30 15:50:07 1999 "hamachi"via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0QCIp6; Thu Sep 3013:50:03 1999 0700 Subject: my $.02 about so-called "hinges" After casting one of A. J. Thramer's parabolics, I would suggest that folks who think parabolics are for the birds don't know what they're missing. I have never seen such a small rod deliver a fly so far. Takes a slower casting stroke and different timing, though. You can't cast 'em like graphite! But then again, who would want to? Randy Brewer from stpete@netten.net Thu Sep 30 16:37:56 1999 Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:41:08 -0500 Subject: Re: List Darrel and any new listers: If you don't recieve a message from the list for a day or so, you canassume that a) your server is down OR b) you have been 'bumped' fromthe list (more likely) Do not take offense. It seems to be a regular occurence. Theproscribed cure is to go to the rodmakers page and click on the 'join'box. from there you will get instructions on how to subscribe and 1st, unsubscribe THEN2nd, subscribe You're back in business, but will have lost all messages until they arearchived. BTW, most if not all that transpires here has been discussed before. Ifyou have some time and you want to learn more about rodmaking, I suggestyou read through the archives. It seems quite daunting, but oncedownloaded, you can move through it fairly fast. Cures that rodmakinginformation jones for a while at any rate. Rick C. DARREL HOLTON wrote: What happened to the list - did I somehow get unsubscribed? from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Sep 30 16:45:59 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF0B6C.4237F440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF0B6C.4237F440 Interesting reading - as Bill's observations are very correct - I =have used the term 'hinge' for lack of a better word - a blip on a =plotted stress graph - which when the rods were case - seemed to allow = think is at issue here. Each has a particular character of rod that they = My preference - and that is what it is - not to be dictated to =others - is a rod that will perform it's magic on tight brushy streams - =roll casting a far share of time - and I deem a rod with the hinge =better than one without - again a decision of mine and not to be =dictated to others - because that is where I prefer to chase trout. Away = from that situation my rod of choice may not be the most ideal - however=because of the intimacy with the rod I stick with it versus switching to=a more appropriate rod that I have less hours on the stream with.Listen to what we say here - but question authority - do the tests =your self - an ideal situation is a gathering - where there is a wide =variety of rods to sample - then emulate the conditions that you cast or =want the rod to cast at it's best - I have always been amazed at the =flyfishing shows - distance is king - a p.... thing - well if distance =is important fine - but if that isn't the situation the rod will =eventually be used at then you are getting a false sense of the =performance needed.It's interesting for me - or rather humbling - when I trek from the =petite streams I fish here to the vast expanse of the White in Arkansas =- I have caught fish there but a little 6' 3 " rods is admittedly a bit =out of place and the tactic of fishing the little rivulets that flow off =the shelf behind Dale Fulton's house isn't the common one - this example =is to illustrate the gained knowledge that a maker should acquire - =There is a vast arsenal of fine tapers available to today's rod maker =and each is designed for a certain personality - stream condition - =chose wisely and enjoy the chase Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF0B6C.4237F440 observations are very correct - I have used the term 'hinge' for lack of = better word - a blip on a plotted stress graph - which when the rods = seemed to allow for better roll casting - a feature which I prefer - and = what I think is at issue here. Each has a particular character of rod = what = not to be dictated to others - is a rod that will perform it's magic on = brushy streams - roll casting a far share of time - and I deem a rod = hinge better than one without - again a decision of mine and not to be = to others - because that is where I prefer to chase trout. Away from = situation my rod of choice may not be the most ideal - however because = intimacy with the rod I stick with it versus switching to a more = that I have less hours on the stream with. but = authority - do the tests your self - an ideal situation is a gathering - = there is a wide variety of rods to sample - then emulate the conditions = cast or want the rod to cast at it's best - I have always been amazed at = flyfishing shows - distance is king - a p.... thing - well if distance = important fine - but if that isn't the situation the rod will eventually = at then you are getting a false sense of the performance =needed. expanse of the White in Arkansas - I have caught fish there but a little = rods is admittedly a bit out of place and the tactic of fishing the = rivulets that flow off the shelf behind Dale Fulton's house isn't the = - this example is to illustrate the gained knowledge that a maker should = - There is a vast arsenal of fine tapers available to today's rod maker = is designed for a certain personality - stream condition - chose wisely = enjoy the chase Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF0B6C.4237F440-- from sats@gte.net Thu Sep 30 16:51:59 1999 Subject: Re: Tung Oil Finish I did a tung oil finish on a South Bend Mod. 59 that I refinished waybefore I started making my Sir D. It originally had a thick varnish jobthat was checking badly so I stripped it off. I put three coats of oilon it and rubbed it in so it got warm to the touch. I think the oilfinish looks really good and as long as I keep it waxed it seems to keepthe moisture out. Three coats is a minimum. When I've used it, I've tried 5 coats. Mostpeoplewould say seven. Three the first day, Two the second and then one everyother Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Fl.(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.net from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Sep 30 17:57:47 1999 Subject: Re: Rod taper theories boundary="------------D809BF83C50140DF5BA304E4" --------------D809BF83C50140DF5BA304E4 Bill,a fast rod with (inverted fingers) a hinge is just a Garrisonsemi-parabolic right? An out and out Parabolic like a para 15 is acompletely different animal.Its all been done before, you take your standard dryfly taper, whittlesome off the butt or add some to the tip and whittle some off the butt,computer not necessary.TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Terry, "Off the record" in this very public place, I would have toagree with your assessment of the "hinge." Vince Marinaro used tocall the parabolic rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designedweakness in its action. But nymphing and roll-casting was not what hewas after. I guess the parabolic rod has its place--some folks likethem--but I don't have much use for the critters in my little kennelof cane. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Rod taper theoriesAdding a 'hinge' to short fast rod and the rod would nolonger be be fast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll castwith it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic'leading us to believe thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding. DNHayashi@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific DaylightTime,SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us writes: Uh oh. This is creating some confusion. It is makingmy brain hurt. Fromprevious posts by Sir D among others I had assumed thata properly executed"hinge" was a sine qua non of a good rod becausewithout it the rod willnotroll cast well. Are you talking about the same thing? You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not.Short answer ison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. Ona longer or slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don'tneed it. Darryl --------------D809BF83C50140DF5BA304E4 Bill,a fast rod with (inverted fingers) a hinge is just a Garrison semi- parabolicright? An out and out Parabolic like a para 15 is a completely differentanimal.Its all been done before, you take your standard dryfly taper, whittlesome off the butt or add some to the tip and whittle some off the butt,computer not necessary.TerryWILLIAM A HARMS wrote: the record" in this very public place, I would have to agree with your rod a "paregoric," exactly because of the designed weakness in its the parabolic rod has its place--some folks like them--but I don't havemuch use for the critters in my little kennel of Bill-----OriginalMessage-----From: TERENCE ACKLAND<hexagon@odyssee.net> <DNHayashi@aol.com>Cc: Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu<Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Tuesday, September 28,1999 5:39 PMSubject: Re: Rod tapertheories be be fast, and whothe hell would buy a short fast rod and expect to roll cast with it?The word 'hinge' is a contemporary term for 'parabolic' leading usto believe thatadvances have been made in modern rodbuilding.DNHayashi@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 9/28/99 12:36:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.uswrites: properly executed it the rod willnot You have to know when it is helpful and when it is not. Short answerison a short fast rod it is real helpful in roll casting. On a longeror slowerrod it's not needed. If you don't roll cast, you don't need it. Darryl --------------D809BF83C50140DF5BA304E4-- from rvenneri@ulster.net Thu Sep 30 18:47:24 1999 Subject: looking for Vernon Speer Hey guys,Does any one have an email adress or a phone Number of Vernon Speer. Iwould like to contact him. ThanksBob VVenneri's21 Chuck Hill RdSaugerties NY 12477914 246 5882http://www.ulster.net/~rvenneri/index.html from MLand02045@aol.com Thu Sep 30 20:45:36 1999 Subject: Unsubscribe How do I unsubscribe from the list? from djfinch@sprintmail.com Thu Sep 30 22:53:13 1999 UAA18662; Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Why would you want to unsubscribe from this great list ? MLand02045@aol.com wrote: How do I unsubscribe from the list?