from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 13 18:41:04 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? 8D44545F1443F86448A6ABB8" --------------8D44545F1443F86448A6ABB8 A days Dove shooting eh?.... ok. george M. Aldrich wrote: ----- Original Message -----From: george M. Aldrich PMSubject: Re: WD40..does it contain silicone?I've used WD-40, for over 35 years, and my machines have been coatedwith it so many times, a good wash with kerosene, would have themlooking like new. They are very well protected, as I can't stand ruston anything. A customer learned the hard way, you don't put it in anengine, as it will burn, and leave terrible varnish on the parts. I'vesprayed my over&unders with it, at the end of a days dove shooting,and they have never had any sign of rust. However, the carrier, whichis a kerosene type material, does evaporate, and the residue willreally gum up the inside of engines, or reels, stored with it on theinterior moving parts. I have several guns, that have been refinishedin Casey's Linseed Oil, and it has never affected the finish. Itcertainly doesn't bother spar varnish, epoxies, or urethaneseither. GMA ----- Original Message -----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 1:15 PMSubject: Re: WD40..does it contain silicone?Andy, that was wipeddown with WD40 after each trip. The finish finally came offand no amountof effort would get a varnish to hold on the cane again whenrefinishingwas attempted. Silicone or not - it does repel varnish. Whoknows aboutglues etc. I'd wipe my forms down with acetone or some typeof alcoholprior to planning just in case. Don At 10:12 AM 10/13/99 -0400, andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com wrote:Does anyone know what WD40 has in it? I used some on mysteel planing formsafter I finished my first rod last spring. What should Iuse to remove itbeforeplaning again? I guess what I am really wondering iswhether it contains thatevil substance: silicone.... Thanks, Andy --------------8D44545F1443F86448A6ABB8 A days Dove shooting eh?.... ok. george M. Aldrich wrote: ----- Original Message -----From: georgeM. Aldrich Wednesday, October 13, 1999 4:32 PMSubject: Re: WD40..does itcontainsilicone? coated with it so many times, a good wash with kerosene, would havethemlooking like new. They are very well protected, as I can't stand rust on in an engine, as it will burn, and leave terrible varnish on the parts.I've sprayed my over&unders with it, at the end of a days doveshooting, carrier,which is a kerosene type material, does evaporate, and the residue willreally gum up the inside of engines, or reels, stored with it on the interiormoving parts. I have several guns, that have been refinished in Casey'sLinseed Oil, and it has never affected the finish. It certainly doesn't ----- Original Message ----- From:Don& Sandy Andersen Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 19991:15 PM Subject: Re: WD40..does it containsilicone? wipeddown with WD40 after each trip. The finish finally came off and noamountof effort would get a varnish to hold on the cane again whenrefinishingwas attempted. Silicone or not - it does repel varnish. Who knowsabout alcoholprior to planning just in case. Don At 10:12 AM 10/13/99 -0400, andrew_harsanyi@ibi.comwrote:Does anyone know what WD40 has in it? I used some on my steelplaningformsafter I finished my first rod last spring. What should I use to removeitbeforeplaning again? I guess what I am really wondering is whether itcontainsthatevil substance: silicone.... Thanks, Andy --------------8D44545F1443F86448A6ABB8-- from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Oct 13 19:30:30 1999 Subject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted Chris,As I recall, McClane, an author who I greatly respect, railed againstbloated fly lines, like sausages, in the same book. When the standard wasonly diameter, it was unworkable, but when it went solely to weight,disregarding diameter, it became, IMHO, worse.J.A. Knight had a better suggestion which combined the factors ofsquarefootage presented to the wind and the weight.Best regards,Reed Chris Wohlford wrote: McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of fly linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod. AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of worms. --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from noblur@stic.net Wed Oct 13 19:41:08 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:41:02 -0500 Subject: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Subject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has an =ability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of this =amount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount =of distance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of =the substance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much =higher density, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal =diameter of the newer synthetics being used. There is less wind =resistance with the smaller diameter, so this then gives better =distance, for a given amount of weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more ="guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float far =better, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter the =return of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide =drag" problem ? GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 7:12 PMSubject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post =regardingwhether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk lines and I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. McClane's ThePractical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that finding =the"right" line for the "right" rod required a lot of research,experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised =printingof the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote 23 =yearsearlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of fly =linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod. =AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of =worms. Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com From:george M. =Aldrich Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each = an ability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of this = of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount of = involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of the substance, = material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higher density, a = diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter of the newer synthetics= used. There is less wind resistance with the smaller diameter, so this = tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, = more "guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float = better, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter the = of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider = drag" problem ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- Wohlford *=A1 = Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999= PMSubject: Silk Lines =RevistedSince I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my = regardingwhether older rod tapers were designed to be used for = andmight not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking = ThePractical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that = research,experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later = printingof the book includes his comments looking back at what he = yearsearlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics = linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a = AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is = latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of = Regards,Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 13 20:05:42 1999 Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:05:21 +0800 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted types="text/plain,text/html"; --=====================_8462277==_.ALT I've noticed what you mention here with modern lines. I've never cast asilkline so I can't comment here but I will say the last rod using the para 15taper I made had (gulp!) GC guides.I was using a Hardy line which I *think* are made by 3M, is quite soft andnormally works well on this taper and I would consider to be a nice lineallround. With the GC guides and stripper the rod was unhappy. The line felt=likeit was bunching at the stripper and slapping about in the snakes during=falsecasting and shooting.I tried a Cortland line that was given to my son by a shop owner for free=whosaid he may as well give it to a budding fly fisher (this was some time=back,Aaron now casts quite well, thank you) because the line was so hard and=memoryresilient he felt bad trying to sell it.This harder stiffer line once I stretched it cast a whole lot better and wasactually quite good.Matching the correct line type not just weight to the rod doesn't justapply tosilk lines.This *is not* a personal endorsement of Cortland lines. Tony Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has an=abilityto handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of this amount ofline,is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount of distance isinvolved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance,=ofthe material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higher density, asmaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter of the newersynthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with the smallerdiameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amount of=weight,past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float far=better,its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter the return ofthesilk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? GMA Subject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post regarding= might not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking for Practical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that finding the= experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised printing= of the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote 23years= earlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of fly lines= in 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod.As= I said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can ofworms. Regards, email: chris@artistree.com = /*************************************************************************/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It = /*************************************************************************/= --=====================_8462277==_.ALT I've noticed what you mention here with modern lines. I've never cast asilk line so I can't comment here but I will say the last rod using thepara 15 taper I made had (gulp!) GC guides.I was using a Hardy line which I *think* are made by 3M, is quite softand normally works well on this taper and I would consider to be a niceline all round. With the GC guides and stripper the rod was unhappy. Theline felt like it was bunching at the stripper and slapping about in thesnakes during false casting and shooting.I tried a Cortland line that was given to my son by a shop owner for free some time back, Aaron now casts quite well, thank you) because the linewas so hard and memory resilient he felt bad trying to sell it.This harder stiffer line once I stretched it cast a whole lot better andwas actually quite good.Matching the correct line type not just weight to the rod doesn't justapply to silk lines.This *is not* a personal endorsement of Cortland lines. Tony At 07:44 PM 10/13/99 -0500, george M. Aldrich wrote: ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has an=ability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of this=amount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amountof=distance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of the=substance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higher=density, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthe=newer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller=diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amount ofweight,=past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more="guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it mayfloat=far better, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter the=return of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the"guide=drag" problem ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Wohlford Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 7:12 PMSubject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post regardingwhether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk lines andmight not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking for one.= I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. McClane's ThePractical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that finding the"right" line for the "right" rod required a lot of=research,experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised printingof the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote 23yearsearlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics offly=linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod.AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of=worms. Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com /**********************************************************************=***/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_8462277==_.ALT-- from noblur@stic.net Wed Oct 13 20:18:54 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Somewhere, I have some old Ashaway nylon "bugging" lines stored away. =Often, when working a bit farther out, I've wished for the old lines =ability to shoot easier. I think this is due to the high drag factor of =these super slick lines. The older braids, were not encased in the slick =plastic, and thus had less surface to drag in the guides. Thinking back to Trueblood, and his shooting heads, and mono backing, =reminds me of how little drag there is, once the head is out past the =tip ! GMA Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:12 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted I've noticed what you mention here with modern lines. I've never cast =a silk line so I can't comment here but I will say the last rod using =the para 15 taper I made had (gulp!) GC guides.I was using a Hardy line which I *think* are made by 3M, is quite soft =and normally works well on this taper and I would consider to be a nice =line all round. With the GC guides and stripper the rod was unhappy. The =line felt like it was bunching at the stripper and slapping about in the =snakes during false casting and shooting.I tried a Cortland line that was given to my son by a shop owner for =free who said he may as well give it to a budding fly fisher (this was =some time back, Aaron now casts quite well, thank you) because the line =was so hard and memory resilient he felt bad trying to sell it.This harder stiffer line once I stretched it cast a whole lot better =and was actually quite good.Matching the correct line type not just weight to the rod doesn't just =apply to silk lines.This *is not* a personal endorsement of Cortland lines. Tony Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has an =ability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of this =amount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount =of distance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of =the substance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much =higher density, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal =diameter of the newer synthetics being used. There is less wind =resistance with the smaller diameter, so this then gives better =distance, for a given amount of weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much =more "guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float =far better, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter =the return of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide =drag" problem ? GMA Subject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post = whether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk lines = might not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking for = I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. McClane's = Practical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that = experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised = of the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote = earlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of = in 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly = I said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of =worms. Regards, email: chris@artistree.com =/************************************************************************=*/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It =/************************************************************************= Somewhere, I have some old Ashaway nylon "bugging" lines= ability to shoot easier. I think this is due to the high drag factor of = super slick lines. The older braids, were not encased in the slick = thus had less surface to drag in the guides. Thinking back to Trueblood, and his shooting heads, and = backing, reminds me of how little drag there is, once the head is out = tip ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- Young Cc: Rodmakers Sent: Wednesday, October 13, = PM RevistedI've noticed what you mention here with modern lines. = never cast a silk line so I can't comment here but I will say the last = using the para 15 taper I made had (gulp!) GC guides.I was using a = line which I *think* are made by 3M, is quite soft and normally works = this taper and I would consider to be a nice line all round. With the = guides and stripper the rod was unhappy. The line felt like it was = the stripper and slapping about in the snakes during false casting and = shooting.I tried a Cortland line that was given to my son by a = was some time back, Aaron now casts quite well, thank you) because the= was so hard and memory resilient he felt bad trying to sell = stiffer line once I stretched it cast a whole lot better and was = quite good.Matching the correct line type not just weight to the = doesn't just apply to silk lines.This *is not* a personal = Cortland lines.TonyAt 07:44 PM 10/13/99 -0500, = M. Aldrich wrote: From: george M. = Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 = Silk Lines RevistedAs I had it explained to me, way back = 1950's, each rod has an ability to handle just so much line, past = The weight of this amount of line, is the governing factor. I have = what the amount of distance is involved, when considering this = the weight of the substance, of the material used, is the key. Since = has a much higher density, a smaller diameter will weigh more than = diameter of the newer synthetics being used. There is less wind = with the smaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a = amount of weight, past the tip.As I see it, the super = finish of the new lines, creates much more "guide drag", as well was = resistance. Although it may float far better, its casting ability is = !Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to = "guide drag" problem ?GMA ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Wohlford Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 7:12 = Subject: Silk Lines RevistedSince I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original = whether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk = might not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking = one. I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. = Practical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that = "right" line for the "right" rod required a lot of research, = experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later = of the book includes his comments looking back at what he = earlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics = in 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a = I said then, the critical factor of weight is =missing."The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the = worms. Regards, email: chris@artistree.com =/*******************************************************************=******/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything.= =It/************************************************************= = from flyman35@home.com Wed Oct 13 20:36:57 1999 Subject: pinned ferrules what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt from dickay@alltel.net Thu Oct 14 07:02:25 1999 HAA18960 Subject: Test Sorry, but I don't seem to be getting messages Sorry, but I don't seem to be getting messages from Sean.Els@intl.bidlog.co.za Thu Oct 14 07:13:37 1999 Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:12:38 +0200 (SAST) Subject: TEST Hi Down here we are receiving you loud and clear.It just seems to be a slow day.Everybody else lucky enough to be fishing you think ? Sean ElsPretoria South AfricaCell : 082 497 6392Work : 012 529 6790Fax : 012 529 6888 from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 14 07:50:26 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: pinned ferrules I'll be interested in anyone's reply to this also ! All the pins I've =seen, only go it from one side. This precludes driving it out from the =opposite side. The only way I can see, is to chuck the rod in a vise, =and using a center cutting end mill, (in a milling machine, of course) =cut the pin out. Many pins are only .040" in diameter, so it will =require a 1/32" end mill, to do this. Anyone else have a way ? GMA Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: pinned ferrules what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt I'll be interested in anyone's reply to this also ! All the = I've seen, only go it from one side. This precludes driving it out from = opposite side. The only way I can see, is to chuck the rod in a vise, = a center cutting end mill, (in a milling machine, of course) cut the pin = Many pins are only .040" in diameter, so it will require a 1/32" end = this. Anyone else have a way ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- MATTHEW = Sent: Wednesday, October 13, = PMSubject: pinned ferruleswhat is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from= out?thanks-matt from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 09:04:10 1999 1999 07:15:22 PDT Subject: Re: pinned ferrules george, i know there's a way. i have a buddy thatsbeen rehabbing the "old stuff" for many years(and therare many others). he's talked about removing pins. iwill ask him but i am certain some one will respondbefore i will be able to get the info. i have anaffection for the bamboos from the other half of thecentury. whenever i get to fish with one i feel likei missed something. no matter how hard i try my rodsare new rods. i can't seem to make an old one. timothy --- "george M. Aldrich" wrote:I'll be interested in anyone's reply to this also !All the pins I've seen, only go it from one side.This precludes driving it out from the oppositeside. The only way I can see, is to chuck the rod ina vise, and using a center cutting end mill, (in amilling machine, of course) cut the pin out. Manypins are only .040" in diameter, so it will requirea 1/32" end mill, to do this. Anyone else have a way ? GMA----- Original Message ----- From: MATTHEW TROPP Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: pinned ferrules what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 14 09:52:11 1999 Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:50:46 -0700 Subject: Re: pinned ferrules Matthew,Drive the pin in just enough to allow the ferrule to pass over it andbe removed. After the ferrule is off, sometimes you can get the pin out,sometimes not. If not, then re-install the ferrule turned to a differentlocation, and insert a new pin. HarryMATTHEW TROPP wrote: what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 14 10:05:28 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: pinned ferrules There's the answer ! i had thought the pin was completely through to the =opposite wall of the ferrule ! Thanks, GMA Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:52 AMSubject: Re: pinned ferrules Matthew,Drive the pin in just enough to allow the ferrule to pass over it =andbe removed. After the ferrule is off, sometimes you can get the pin =out,sometimes not. If not, then re-install the ferrule turned to a =differentlocation, and insert a new pin. HarryMATTHEW TROPP wrote: what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is =thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt There's the answer ! i had thought the pin was completely = to the opposite wall of the ferrule ! Thanks, GMA ----- Original Message ----- Harry = Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 14, = AMSubject: Re: pinned =ferrules then re-install the ferrule turned to a differentlocation, and = what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is = thanks-matt from rmoon@ida.net Thu Oct 14 10:08:12 1999 0000 Subject: Re: pinned ferrules used dental drills can usually be had for the asking and a variety ofthose will usually find one that will drill out the pin. You must havea drill press with a 0 closure chuck.Ralph from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 14 11:04:52 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:03:44 -0500 Subject: Re: pinned ferrules I don't do any restoration work anymore unless I am just forced to (a =friend in need, ya know) but when I did, I just set the pinned ferrule =in a machine vice, put a wire guage drill bit of the proper size in my =press and very carefully, drilled the pin below the inner diameter of =the ferrule. After that, it's just like removing a normal ferrule. just my 2cents.Bob -----Original Message-----From: george M. Aldrich Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 7:55 AMSubject: Re: pinned ferrules I'll be interested in anyone's reply to this also ! All the pins =I've seen, only go it from one side. This precludes driving it out from =the opposite side. The only way I can see, is to chuck the rod in a =vise, and using a center cutting end mill, (in a milling machine, of =course) cut the pin out. Many pins are only .040" in diameter, so it =will require a 1/32" end mill, to do this. Anyone else have a way ? GMA Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: pinned ferrules what is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules from a rod? is =thereany way to knock the pin out?thanks-matt I don't do any restoration work = am just forced to (a friend in need, ya know) but when I did, I just set = pinned ferrule in a machine vice, put a wire guage drill bit of the = in my press and very carefully, drilled the pin below the inner diameter = ferrule. just my 2cents.Bob -----Original = flyman35@home.com rodmakers <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Thursday, October 14, 1999 7:55 AMSubject: Re: pinned= ferrulesI'll be interested in anyone's reply to this also ! All = pins I've seen, only go it from one side. This precludes driving it = the opposite side. The only way I can see, is to chuck the rod in a = and using a center cutting end mill, (in a milling machine, of = the pin out. Many pins are only .040" in diameter, so it will = 1/32" end mill, to do this. Anyone else have a way ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- = TROPP Sent: Wednesday, October = 8:40 PMSubject: pinned =ferruleswhat is the easiest way to remove pinned ferrules = out?thanks-matt from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 14 11:15:17 1999 11:13:27 -0500 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: [Fwd: October Book Review] Thought you would find this of interest...... F Shirley Fulton wrote: Hi Editors, Here is a book review by Bruce Harang, Editor of the Smoky Mountain FlyFishers ofNorth Carolina, for use in your newsletters. Many thanks to Bruce. Have a great day, ShirleyFFF ClubWire Editor -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Fundamentals of Building aBamboo Fly-Rod The Countryman PressWoodstock VT, 1998255 pages, hardboundillustrated, B/W photosSuggested Retail, $50.00 reviewed by Bruce Harang of the Smokey Mountain FlyFishers Surprisingly, in an otherwise literature rich sport, there have been fewqualityfly-rod-building books. The ones that come readily to mind are AMATEURRODMAKING, byPerry D. Frazer in 1914, A MASTER'S GUIDE TO BUILDING A BAMBOO FLYROD, by EverettGarrison in 1977. Thus, when a book on fly rod building is published, it isgreedilysnapped up. Usually, however, the new books turn out to be both poor inquality andshort on useful information. With the publication of the authors' book a new star has risen in thecraft of fly-rodbuilding. The book is clearly written with excellent editing and superblayout anddesign. The reader will gain the necessary information to successfullybuild bamboo flyrods. Moreover, he will thoroughly enjoy doing so because of the finewriting. Thephotographs clearly illustrate the text they accompany. If there is adownside to thisbook it is the average quality of the photograph reproduction. While thephotographs areclear enough for the reader to understand what is illustrated, they are notup to thesame standard as the rest of the book. What the authors have done is combine the years of experience of aprofessional bamboofly rod builder with the questioning insight of a beginner to provide a bookthatclearly teaches the reader how to successfully build a bamboo fly rod.Everything in theway of tools, materials, and procedures is here. Moreover, it is providedwith enoughdetail to allow success without unnecessary minutia to cause confusion. instead of dozens of rod tapers, the authors provide the reader with 18 rodtapers,which provide great fly rods while being straight forward enough to allowthe beginnerto find success from the start. At the same time the authors provide aclear and conciseexplanation of taper design to allow the reader to develop more involvedandpersonalized rod tapers as he gains in experience. The book contains a good list of suppliers of all of the tools andmaterials thebamboo rod builder requires. In addition, the book contains clear andconcisedescriptions and instructions for building the tools that are eitherunavailablecommercially, or as an alternative to expensive ready-made products. Alsoincluded is aglossary of technical terms used in the bamboo rod building craft. Thebook simply willnot let the beginning rod-builder flounder in the dark.Countryman Press must also take credit for a wonderfully designed andimplementedpublication. The binding, paper stock, dust jacket photograph, and overallprinting areall of the highest quality. These factors are not often appreciated, but go along waytoward making this book as easy to read. Overall, one of the finest instructional books you will find, and a musthave volume --Fred Bohls, Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17013(717) 732- 2448 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!! from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Oct 14 11:59:55 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted 1999) at 10/14/9911:54:06 AM I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich" Sent by: cc:owner-rodmakers@wugate Subject: Fw: Silk LinesRevisted.wustl.edu 10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblur ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount ofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post regardingwhether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk lines andmight not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking for one. I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. McClane's ThePractical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that finding the"right" line for the "right" rod required a lot of research,experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised printingof the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote 23 yearsearlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of fly linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod. AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of worms. --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 14 13:45:16 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:44:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted To a certain extent I agree, however, surface irregularities, such asthose found on braided lines, produce a much greater surface area to beexposed to the air in casting than is found on a PVC line's surface. Duringthe "cast", it would seem that the braided line would have a much greaterresistance to the air than a "slick" line of equal diamter solely because ithas much more effective surface area. Depending on the coarseness of thebraid, this exposed surface area, affecting the drag coefficient, could beas much as twice that of a PVC line the same diameter. If that is thecase,(and nope, I haven't checked it out) then a PVC line would have to,theoretically, be 1.55 times larger in diameter (working from memoryhere)than a braided line to have the same drag coefficient, but this of coursedoesn't take into account the differences in Mass of the two lines. Whenconsidering an aerodynamic problem which this obviously is, then totalsurface area must be taken into account, not just the area of half thecircumference of the object, the line, but the total area of all surfacesexposed to drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these surfacesand the mass of the objects. from an engineering standpoint, it would make sense that a braided line(assuming it was properly maintained and well finished) would have lessguide drag than an PVC surfaced line, simply because there is less linesurface contact with the guides at any given time. The entire area of thecontact patch is not in actual contact with the guides, only the high pointsof the braids. Think of it like a pair of racing slicks on an Indy car.Slicks (PVC lines) have more "traction" (line/guide resistance) becausethere is more surface area in contact with the ground (the guides) than isthe case with the treaded tire (braided silk line), thus producing morefriction and opposition to slipping.I guess my point here is that we are comparing apples and oranges. Myhumble opinion is that the silks and the PVC's each have their distinctadvantages. I prefer PVC's for two reasons... #1... a quality PVC line ismuch cheaper than a quality silk line, and #2, a PVC line requires muchlessmaintenance. In other words, I guess I am a lazy tightwad LOL. Bob -----Original Message-----I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich"10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblurAs I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount ofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 14 13:56:54 1999 Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:56:42 -0700 "rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ed,Why does a golf ball have dimples? Though I certainly don'tunderstand it all,I know it hasto do with better aerodynamics. When I was a college kid, I worked in agolf Pro shop.A Titleistrep came by with some new golf balls, and some demo golf balls with nodimples. Whenyou hit one ofthose slick golf balls, it just sort of died after about 125 yards. Unlessyou tried tohook or sliceit. Talk about a banana! I know this group doesn't really like weight forward lines, but I havea 2weight McKenzieGary Borger line that is rough as can be. Feels like an orange peel. Still,it's oneof the bestlines I ever used. Casts well, zips through the guides (for a 2 weightanyhow), andfloats well. Iown about 5 WF2F lines, and this is by far the best. It's better casting andfishingthan Orvis,Ultra 3, Cortland 444, and theWulff TT 2/3. I think it has to do with theroughness ofthe linemaking it drag much less while going through the guides.I'm not disputing what you said, rather confirming your statementsabout guide drag. Harry eestlow@srminc.com wrote: I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich" Sent by: cc:owner-rodmakers@wugate Subject: Fw: Silk LinesRevisted.wustl.edu 10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblur ----- Original Message -----From: george M. Aldrich Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:19 AMSubject: Re: Silk Lines Revisted As I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amountofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight ofthesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? GMA----- Original Message -----From: Chris Wohlford Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 7:12 PMSubject: Silk Lines Revisted Since I didn't receive much of a rebuttal to my original post regardingwhether older rod tapers were designed to be used for silk lines andmight not work as well with today's PVC lines I went looking for one. I went back and reread the fly line chapter in A.J. McClane's ThePractical Fly Fisherman. In short one gets the feeling that finding the"right" line for the "right" rod required a lot of research,experimentation and last but not least...luck! My later revised printingof the book includes his comments looking back at what he wrote 23 yearsearlier. McClane states, "When I look back on the semantics of fly linesin 1952 it was miraculous that anybody could match one to a fly rod. AsI said then, the critical factor of weight is missing." The latter statement regarding weight really opens up the can of worms. --Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Oct 14 14:25:49 1999 MAA04810; (5.5.2448.0) "'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'" Subject: RE: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited the rough surface breaks up the surface tension and creates a very thinlayer of disturbair allowing the great mass of air to pass over it with less resistance. Afriend mademe a canvas covered canoe and told me about this, and me being a doubtingThomas didn'tbelieve him so I painted the canvas and sanded it smooth. I t went throughthe waterokay but not nearly so effortlessly that the twin he made for his son. so Iadded acouple more coats of paint without sanding between layers or after thelast layer andthe difference was like between night and day. The rough outer layer brokeup thesurface tension and allowed the hull to go through the water much moreefficiently andwater is not much more than thick air. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ed,Why does a golf ball have dimples? Though I certainly don'tunderstand itall, I know it hasto do with better aerodynamics. When I was a college kid, I worked in agolf Proshop. A Titleistrep came by with some new golf balls, and some demo golf balls with nodimples. Whenyou hit one ofthose slick golf balls, it just sort of died after about 125 yards. Unlessyou triedto hook or sliceit. Talk about a banana! I know this group doesn't really like weight forward lines, but Ihave a 2weight McKenzieGary Borger line that is rough as can be. Feels like an orange peel. Still,it's oneof the bestlines I ever used. Casts well, zips through the guides (for a 2 weightanyhow), andfloats well. Iown about 5 WF2F lines, and this is by far the best. It's better castingand fishingthan Orvis,Ultra 3, Cortland 444, and theWulff TT 2/3. I think it has to do with theroughnessof the linemaking it drag much less while going through the guides.I'm not disputing what you said, rather confirming your statementsabout guidedrag. Harry from ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil Thu Oct 14 14:35:39 1999 eestlow@srminc.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,"'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'" Subject: RE: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited In aviation we call it Boundary Layer Control. But it has to be donejuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust right. -----Original Message-----From: Coffey, Patrick W Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 3:26 PM 'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'Subject: RE: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited the rough surface breaks up the surface tension and creates avery thin layer of disturb air allowing the great mass of air to pass overitwith less resistance. A friend made me a canvas covered canoe and toldme aboutthis, and me being a doubting Thomas didn't believe him so I painted thecanvasand sanded it smooth. I t went through the water okay but not nearly soeffortlessly that the twin he made for his son. so I added a couple morecoatsof paint without sanding between layers or after the last layer and thedifference was like between night and day. The rough outer layer broke upthesurface tension and allowed the hull to go through the water much moreefficiently and water is not much more than thick air. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ed,Why does a golf ball have dimples? Though I certainlydon't understand it all, I know it hasto do with better aerodynamics. When I was a college kid, Iworked in a golf Pro shop. A Titleistrep came by with some new golf balls, and some demo golfballswith no dimples. When you hit one ofthose slick golf balls, it just sort of died after about 125yards. Unless you tried to hook or sliceit. Talk about a banana! I know this group doesn't really like weight forwardlines, but I have a 2 weight McKenzieGary Borger line that is rough as can be. Feels like anorange peel. Still, it's one of the bestlines I ever used. Casts well, zips through the guides (for a2 weight anyhow), and floats well. Iown about 5 WF2F lines, and this is by far the best. It'sbetter casting and fishing than Orvis,Ultra 3, Cortland 444, and theWulff TT 2/3. I think it has todo with the roughness of the linemaking it drag much less while going through the guides.I'm not disputing what you said, rather confirming yourstatements about guide drag. Harry from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Oct 14 14:35:49 1999 Subject: RE: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited 1999) at 10/14/9902:30:00 PM Actually, no. The surface roughness has to do with boundary layerseparation. The boundary layer is the layer of air close to the surfacewith a velocity less than the free stream velocity. A rough surface makesthe boundary layer go turbulant and a turbulant BL stays attached longerthan a laminar one. There is less pressure drag (pressure behind vspressure in front) on the object in question with an attached BL. Thus,dimples on a golf ball. Without going into a whole lecture on fluidmechanics, this whole thing is related to how big the object is (a"characteristic length" is involved in the calculation - for our purposes,the diameter of the golf ball or fly line). A fly line being perhaps a 40ththe diameter of of a golf ball, I'm thinking that laminar vs. turbulant BLhas little to do with things. Bob has some interesting thoughts, but I'm curious as to where the factorof 1.55 came from. Bob, are you thinking of a silk fly line as followingthe laws of parachute aerodynamics? Best,-Ed "Coffey, Patrick W"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu,"'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'" 10/14/99 02:25 PM cc:Subject: RE: Fw: Silk LinesRevisited the rough surface breaks up the surface tension and creates a very thinlayer of disturb air allowing the great mass of air to pass over it withless resistance. A friend made me a canvas covered canoe and told meaboutthis, and me being a doubting Thomas didn't believe him so I painted thecanvas and sanded it smooth. I t went through the water okay but notnearlyso effortlessly that the twin he made for his son. so I added a couple morecoats of paint without sanding between layers or after the last layer andthe difference was like between night and day. The rough outer layer brokeup the surface tension and allowed the hull to go through the water muchmore efficiently and water is not much more than thick air. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ed,Why does a golf ball have dimples? Though I certainly don'tunderstand it all, I know it hasto do with better aerodynamics. When I was a college kid, I worked in agolf Pro shop. A Titleistrep came by with some new golf balls, and some demo golf balls with nodimples. When you hit one ofthose slick golf balls, it just sort of died after about 125 yards.Unless you tried to hook or sliceit. Talk about a banana! I know this group doesn't really like weight forward lines, but Ihave a 2 weight McKenzieGary Borger line that is rough as can be. Feels like an orange peel.Still, it's one of the bestlines I ever used. Casts well, zips through the guides (for a 2 weightanyhow), and floats well. Iown about 5 WF2F lines, and this is by far the best. It's better castingand fishing than Orvis,Ultra 3, Cortland 444, and theWulff TT 2/3. I think it has to do withthe roughness of the linemaking it drag much less while going through the guides.I'm not disputing what you said, rather confirming your statementsabout guide drag. Harry from eestlow@srminc.com Thu Oct 14 14:49:49 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted 1999) at 10/14/9902:44:01 PM An additional thought: Bob, a reminder, mass doesn't enter into drag coefficient. Nor does size.Drag coefficient is independent of either, being based solely on shape.Also, unless you're figuring that air is flowing through all the littlechannels between the braids, I would submit that drag coefficient ISbasedon the frontal area of the line. Therefore, surface area wouldn't come intoplay. I would think that all those little channels become stagnation areasand effectively take themselves out of the aerodynamic question. Andbuilding on what Harry said, unless the Reynolds number is sufficient forseparation to occur, it may well stay attached most of the way around aline, regardless of surface roughness. If so, a silk and a PVC would havethe same drag characteristics, the silk having less due only to its smallerdiameter. Hmmm....... pretty academic thread..... Best,-Ed "Bob Nunley" Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Silk LinesRevisted 10/14/99 01:43 PMPlease respond tocaneman To a certain extent I agree, however, surface irregularities, such asthose found on braided lines, produce a much greater surface area to beexposed to the air in casting than is found on a PVC line's surface.Duringthe "cast", it would seem that the braided line would have a much greaterresistance to the air than a "slick" line of equal diamter solely becauseithas much more effective surface area. Depending on the coarseness of thebraid, this exposed surface area, affecting the drag coefficient, could beas much as twice that of a PVC line the same diameter. If that is thecase,(and nope, I haven't checked it out) then a PVC line would have to,theoretically, be 1.55 times larger in diameter (working from memoryhere)than a braided line to have the same drag coefficient, but this of coursedoesn't take into account the differences in Mass of the two lines. Whenconsidering an aerodynamic problem which this obviously is, then totalsurface area must be taken into account, not just the area of half thecircumference of the object, the line, but the total area of all surfacesexposed to drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these surfacesand the mass of the objects. from an engineering standpoint, it would make sense that a braided line(assuming it was properly maintained and well finished) would have lessguide drag than an PVC surfaced line, simply because there is less linesurface contact with the guides at any given time. The entire area of thecontact patch is not in actual contact with the guides, only the highpointsof the braids. Think of it like a pair of racing slicks on an Indy car.Slicks (PVC lines) have more "traction" (line/guide resistance) becausethere is more surface area in contact with the ground (the guides) than isthe case with the treaded tire (braided silk line), thus producing morefriction and opposition to slipping.I guess my point here is that we are comparing apples and oranges. Myhumble opinion is that the silks and the PVC's each have their distinctadvantages. I prefer PVC's for two reasons... #1... a quality PVC line ismuch cheaper than a quality silk line, and #2, a PVC line requires muchlessmaintenance. In other words, I guess I am a lazy tightwad LOL. Bob -----Original Message-----I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich"10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblurAs I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount ofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 14 15:01:58 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited Amen to that.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Shuey, Ralph wrote: In aviation we call it Boundary Layer Control. But it has to be donejuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust right. -----Original Message-----From: Coffey, Patrick W Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 3:26 PM 'fbcwin@3g.quik.com'Subject: RE: Fw: Silk Lines Revisited the rough surface breaks up the surface tension and creates avery thin layer of disturb air allowing the great mass of air to pass overitwith less resistance. A friend made me a canvas covered canoe and toldme aboutthis, and me being a doubting Thomas didn't believe him so I painted thecanvasand sanded it smooth. I t went through the water okay but not nearly soeffortlessly that the twin he made for his son. so I added a couple morecoatsof paint without sanding between layers or after the last layer and thedifference was like between night and day. The rough outer layer brokeup thesurface tension and allowed the hull to go through the water much moreefficiently and water is not much more than thick air. Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ed,Why does a golf ball have dimples? Though I certainlydon't understand it all, I know it hasto do with better aerodynamics. When I was a college kid, Iworked in a golf Pro shop. A Titleistrep came by with some new golf balls, and some demo golfballswith no dimples. When you hit one ofthose slick golf balls, it just sort of died after about 125yards. Unless you tried to hook or sliceit. Talk about a banana! I know this group doesn't really like weight forwardlines, but I have a 2 weight McKenzieGary Borger line that is rough as can be. Feels like anorange peel. Still, it's one of the bestlines I ever used. Casts well, zips through the guides (for a2 weight anyhow), and floats well. Iown about 5 WF2F lines, and this is by far the best. It'sbetter casting and fishing than Orvis,Ultra 3, Cortland 444, and theWulff TT 2/3. I think it has todo with the roughness of the linemaking it drag much less while going through the guides.I'm not disputing what you said, rather confirming yourstatements about guide drag. Harry from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Oct 14 15:21:07 1999 Subject: TBBFR List,I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going. He saidthe new issue should be out here soon. I really want to see this magazine go over and I think it will. I understand about trying ti get a business up and running and I can see some of the problems first hand that he has encountered. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and give him somepositive feedback if you can. It will hurt noone but us if he gets discouraged and folds the operation. I know there are some of us who have paid in advance2 or 3 years and have only received one years worth of mags, but I also know there are some who have received one years worth of magazines whohaven't paid for even the first issue. If he is to succeed he needs to be current on his receivables here but I also know he needs to get up to date on his current issues. I remember when Gray's came out they had some problems couple of years and they made it, so I think Mark will make it here too. If I overstepped my bounds with some of you this is not personal just my.02 worth. Bret from ralph.shuey@redstone.army.mil Thu Oct 14 15:31:37 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: TBBFR AMEN!! Mark went out of his way to support the FFF Conclave in Gatlinburgand Ihad an opportunity to talk with him for a couple of days. He certainly doesnotstrike me as someone trying to fleece anyone. Mark is dedicated to thebamboorod and its history, and would appear to be doing his dead level best tomakethe magazine go forward. What he is doing may not be perfect, but by God;he isdoing it......we just talk about it. GO MARK!! -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: TBBFR List,I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going.He said the new issue should be out here soon. I really want to see thismagazine go over and I think it will. I understand about trying ti get abusiness up and running and I can see some of the problems first hand that hehas encountered. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and give himsome positive feedback if you can. It will hurt noone but us if he getsdiscouraged and folds the operation. I know there are some of us who have paidin advance 2 or 3 years and have only received one years worth of mags, but Ialso know there are some who have received one years worth of magazineswho haven't paid for even the first issue. If he is to succeed he needs tobe current on his receivables here but I also know he needs to get up to dateon his current issues. I remember when Gray's came out they had someproblems for a couple of years and they made it, so I think Mark will make ithere too. If I overstepped my bounds with some of you this is not personaljust my .02 worth. Bret from gholland@navsys.com Thu Oct 14 15:31:53 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: TBBFR Though I have no first hand knowledge, as you do, I agree that it is in thebest interest of all of us should Mark succeed. While there are few thingsmore aggravating than letting go of your hard earned money for somethingthat may or may not ever arrive, we will all eventually benefit from thismagazine. I hope he succeeds. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: TBBFR List,I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going. He saidthe new issue should be out here soon. I really want to see this magazine go over and I think it will. I understand about trying ti get a business upand running and I can see some of the problems first hand that he has encountered. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and give him somepositive feedback if you can. It will hurt noone but us if he gets discouraged and folds the operation. I know there are some of us who have paid in advance2 or 3 years and have only received one years worth of mags, but I also know there are some who have received one years worth of magazines whohaven't paid for even the first issue. If he is to succeed he needs to be currenton his receivables here but I also know he needs to get up to date on his current issues. I remember when Gray's came out they had some problems couple of years and they made it, so I think Mark will make it here too. If I overstepped my bounds with some of you this is not personal just my.02 worth. Bret from flytyr@southshore.com Thu Oct 14 16:27:59 1999 Subject: Re: TBBFR I was critical of Mark till I talked to him at Gatlinburg. I believe he issincerein getting the Magazine out. There are some glitches and I am saying thiswith aopen mind. I will stick with it and see what happens. Yes, I did pay for mysubscription.Ralph, I am with you on this.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com Shuey, Ralph wrote: AMEN!! Mark went out of his way to support the FFF Conclave inGatlinburg and Ihad an opportunity to talk with him for a couple of days. He certainlydoes notstrike me as someone trying to fleece anyone. Mark is dedicated to thebamboorod and its history, and would appear to be doing his dead level best tomakethe magazine go forward. What he is doing may not be perfect, but byGod; he isdoing it......we just talk about it. GO MARK!! -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:20 PM Subject: TBBFR List,I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things aregoing.He said thenew issue should be out here soon. I really want to see thismagazine goover and I think it will. I understand about trying ti get abusiness up andrunning and I can see some of the problems first hand that hehasencountered. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and give himsome positivefeedback if you can. It will hurt noone but us if he getsdiscouraged andfolds the operation. I know there are some of us who have paidin advance 2or 3 years and have only received one years worth of mags, butIalso knowthere are some who have received one years worth ofmagazineswho haven'tpaid for even the first issue. If he is to succeed he needs tobe current onhis receivables here but I also know he needs to get up to dateon hiscurrent issues. I remember when Gray's came out they hadsomeproblems for acouple of years and they made it, so I think Mark will make ithere too. If I overstepped my bounds with some of you this is notpersonaljust my .02worth. Bret from stpete@netten.net Thu Oct 14 16:39:50 1999 Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:44:56 -0500 Subject: Re: TBBFR Bret, I, too, want the magazine to succeed. I paid for one year and have yetto receive the last issue (is there one even out which fulfills thefirst years subscription?). When TBBFR sent me a nice renewal reminder,I had to decide whether I should pay for another year. I opted not to.I would gladly pay for next years subscription if I thought that TBBFRwas going to send magazines. I am not confident that they will. All Mr.Metcalf had to do was send a notice or letter slipped inside thesubscribers' copy explaining his situation. Is that so hard to do?Being in the communication business, I would have thought he wouldknowthe importance of it. Rick C. from fcfp@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 14 16:44:28 1999 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) Subject: Re: TBBFR AMEN !!!!!!! Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote: List,I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going. He saidthenew issue should be out here soon. I really want to see this magazine goover and I think it will. I understand about trying ti get a business upandrunning and I can see some of the problems first hand that he hasencountered. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and give him somepositivefeedback if you can. It will hurt noone but us if he gets discouraged andfolds the operation. I know there are some of us who have paid inadvance 2or 3 years and have only received one years worth of mags, but I alsoknowthere are some who have received one years worth of magazines whohaven'tpaid for even the first issue. If he is to succeed he needs to be currentonhis receivables here but I also know he needs to get up to date on hiscurrent issues. I remember when Gray's came out they had someproblems for acouple of years and they made it, so I think Mark will make it here too. If I overstepped my bounds with some of you this is not personal just my.02worth. Bret --Fred Bohls, Financial ServicesP. O. Box 3303Camp Hill, PA 17013(717) 732- 2448 MAKE IT A GREAT DAY !!! from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 14 16:46:04 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:45:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ok, got a question here... rarely have I fished silk lines, but when youpull one from the water all the little nooks and crannies in the braidedline are full of water... water laying on top of the surface of the flyline... false cast then cast, then is the line not relatively free of water(don't say the "whipping" of the line does it, cause we aren't supposed tocast like that LOL)... if a Boundary Layber (BL) applies to a silk line tothe extent that air does not flow over the fine braids of the line, thenwhat force removes the water from all surfaces of the line? Removal ofthewater, in a physics sense is work, and work cannot be done without someforce. The line is adhesive, the water is definitely adhesive, so there hasto be a force at work to remove the water from everywhere on the line. Ijust figured it was the air flow on, in and around the braids of the linethat did it. Not arguing here, just curious. I really don't know theanswer, but logic would seem to dictate, to me at least, that IF the air iscapable of removing the water from within the small nooks and cranniesofthe braid, then the BL may be so miniscule that it is nearly insignificant.The example of the canvas canoe was an excellent example for breakingthetension in water, however, fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are not thesamething, as air and water do not have the same basic characteristics (ie,compressability or lack of it). Two different classes and two differenttheories when I was in school.Now, the 1.55 was a flawed memory chip (mine... not the computers).That figure was what I THOUGHT I remembered as being a factor by whichtomultiply diamter to get the twice the cross seciontal area of a cylinder,but, put my calculator to work, and it is much closer to 1.4073. So, nowmycontention was that in order to have resistance to the air in the cast equalto the braided fly line (if the surface area of the braids were indeed twicethe surface area of a pvc line the same diameter), then, the pvc fly linewould have to be 1.4073 times larger (cross-sectional area) than thebraidedfly line. In other words, if you had a braided line that was .050" diameterthen the PVC line would have to be approx. .070" diameter to have thesameamount of surface area. Of course this is based on my assumption that theBL is so insignificant on a braided fly line that it is not worthconsidering, especially at the low velocities we are considering with a flyline, and that MAY or MAY NOT be a fair assumption.I also agree that mass does not enter into figuring drag coefficient,however, the mass is a very important part of the overall equation. Manythings do... density, the flexibility of the lines (one that will throw atighter loop will have less of the "overall" area of the line "cutting" 90degrees to the air at a given time), etc. This is what I was talking aboutwhen I referred to angles of deflection being an additional determiningfactor in castability. Items of different mass, density, area, flexibility,etc. react differently, in the overall formula, to like forces. I re-readmy post and it did sound like I was including mass as a part of the dragcoefficient... sorry, a syntax blunder on my part. I did mean to say thatit was an important factor to be considered in the overall scenario ofwhathappens to each line during casting, not to imply that drag was dependantupon mass.And Ed, you are right... I am beginning to have flashbacks toEngineering Physics here... LOL very academic thread! Hmmmmm... should Idrag out my old Thermodynamics text books and see how muchtemperature would... Never mind, just being a smart a%%. Later,Bob PS: Shouldn't we all be out in the shop flattening nodes!!! LOL -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted An additional thought: Bob, a reminder, mass doesn't enter into drag coefficient. Nor does size.Drag coefficient is independent of either, being based solely on shape.Also, unless you're figuring that air is flowing through all the littlechannels between the braids, I would submit that drag coefficient ISbasedon the frontal area of the line. Therefore, surface area wouldn't come intoplay. I would think that all those little channels become stagnation areasand effectively take themselves out of the aerodynamic question. Andbuilding on what Harry said, unless the Reynolds number is sufficient forseparation to occur, it may well stay attached most of the way around aline, regardless of surface roughness. If so, a silk and a PVC would havethe same drag characteristics, the silk having less due only to itssmallerdiameter. Hmmm....... pretty academic thread..... Best,-Ed "Bob Nunley" Serve"Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fw: SilkLines Revisted 10/14/99 01:43 PMPlease respond tocaneman To a certain extent I agree, however, surface irregularities, such asthose found on braided lines, produce a much greater surface area to beexposed to the air in casting than is found on a PVC line's surface.Duringthe "cast", it would seem that the braided line would have a much greaterresistance to the air than a "slick" line of equal diamter solely becauseithas much more effective surface area. Depending on the coarseness ofthebraid, this exposed surface area, affecting the drag coefficient, could beas much as twice that of a PVC line the same diameter. If that is thecase,(and nope, I haven't checked it out) then a PVC line would have to,theoretically, be 1.55 times larger in diameter (working from memoryhere)than a braided line to have the same drag coefficient, but this of coursedoesn't take into account the differences in Mass of the two lines. Whenconsidering an aerodynamic problem which this obviously is, then totalsurface area must be taken into account, not just the area of half thecircumference of the object, the line, but the total area of all surfacesexposed to drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these surfacesand the mass of the objects. from an engineering standpoint, it would make sense that a braidedline(assuming it was properly maintained and well finished) would have lessguide drag than an PVC surfaced line, simply because there is less linesurface contact with the guides at any given time. The entire area of thecontact patch is not in actual contact with the guides, only the highpointsof the braids. Think of it like a pair of racing slicks on an Indy car.Slicks (PVC lines) have more "traction" (line/guide resistance) becausethere is more surface area in contact with the ground (the guides) than isthe case with the treaded tire (braided silk line), thus producing morefriction and opposition to slipping.I guess my point here is that we are comparing apples and oranges. Myhumble opinion is that the silks and the PVC's each have their distinctadvantages. I prefer PVC's for two reasons... #1... a quality PVC line ismuch cheaper than a quality silk line, and #2, a PVC line requires muchlessmaintenance. In other words, I guess I am a lazy tightwad LOL. Bob -----Original Message-----I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich"10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblurAs I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amount ofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? from flyman35@home.com Thu Oct 14 17:46:25 1999 Subject: pinned ferrules thanks to all who responded to my post re: pinned ferrules. thedrilling method did the trick. now does anyone have a suggest as towhat material i should use as the pin?thanks to all-matt from brookie@frii.com Thu Oct 14 18:13:36 1999 Subject: Re: TBBFR my .03 worth on this : I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going. He said the new issue should be out here soon. I really want to see this magazine go over and I think it will. I have to smile at this 'issue' of the mag not getting out ontime. While I too have become accustomed to on-time oractually in the case of most mag subscriptions, months inadvance time delivery (you know, the magazine has Decemberissue printed on the outside, yet you receive it in October),remember that back in the olden days, these things took theirown sweet time. Fledgling postal service, pony express andworse :-) So I agree, we'll cut him some slack. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and givehim some positive feedback if you can. I know I could/should go upstairs and look up their emailaddress, but think it would serve wider purpose if someonewould post that email addy, then we can send the old boysome positive emails ! *S*suenorthern tier-annied part of coloradoWhere we ARE still happily fishing. from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Oct 14 18:34:03 1999 16:37:25 PDT Subject: RE: Pinned Ferrules Matt, You can get wire of Nickel Silver or Sterling Silver at a lapidary shop or the right jewelry store, usually sold by weight. If you will be using a lot of it, (in the future) you will be able to save money by ordering through Rio Grande's catalog. Don't remember their website, but if you doa search you will find them. If the ferrule is oxidized and the pin will show on the female (not under the ferrule wrap) then you will want nickel silver. If the pin is under a wrap or from a bright ferrule then sterling silver will work. Measure the diameter of the remaining wire, if you can get it out of the blank, to determine what size you will need to replace it. Or take the ferrule to the shop and find the wire diameter that will fit. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from rmoon@ida.net Thu Oct 14 18:45:13 1999 0000 Subject: Re: pinned ferrules Nickle Silver wireRalph from brookie@frii.com Thu Oct 14 19:27:42 1999 Subject: RE: TBBFR AMEN!! Mark went out of his way to support the FFF Conclave in Gatlinburg and I had anopportunity to talk with him for a couple of days. He certainly does not strike me as someone trying to fleece anyone. Mark isdedicated to the bamboo rod and its history, and would appear to be doing his dead level best to make the magazine go forward. What he is doing may not be perfect, but by God; he is doing it......we just talk about it. GO MARK!! I should have thought of this earlier, but didn't. Someonewho keeps the RodM. posts more than a day or two should forward on these great posts re Mark and the mag, to him !:-) suecolorado from rcurry@ttlc.net Thu Oct 14 19:34:50 1999 Subject: Re: Silk Lines Richard,Here is that French silk line maker. He sent me some line samples 5years agoand they were very good, but I was short on the cash necessary for a newsilkline. I may buy one of his someday soon. (rather than another rod).Jacky BoileauPeches Sportives11A - Georges DUMAS87000 - LIMOGESR.C.: A 320 023 121FranceTel: 55 34 29 83Fax: 55 32 29 17 Best regards,Reed Fallcreek9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/12/99 7:20:30 PM Central Daylight Time,rcurry@ttlc.netwrites: The other line maker is French and doesn't have a U.S. distributor, butyoucan order direct. I'll dig out his address later. BTW, he makes WFs aswellasDTs >> Thanks, Reed. RT from Canerods@aol.com Thu Oct 14 19:58:56 1999 Subject: Re: pinned ferrules All, Call Brownells (515-623-5401) and order their Starter Punch P/N 080-513- 039 @ about $6.08 (I have an old catalog) and replacement punch pins P/N 080-513-639 @ about (again) $6.45 x 6 pins. Needed only for replacementof the included one pin that comes with the punch. DON''T order the longer pin "gunsmith" punch, it'll bend/break if you wackit trying to push in single-sided pins. The punch can be used to drive out pins on double sided pins (Heddon and others) or push the pin in below the I.D. of the ferrule on single entry pins. (Montague etc) Then heat and remove the ferrule. Punch idea credit goes to Michael Sinclair from his "Bamboo RodRestoration Hanadbook" Don Burns PS - Brownell's is a gunsmithing company and they have many "goodies"that will be useful in restoration/rodmaking. I have no connection with them except as a customer. from mschaffer@mindspring.com Thu Oct 14 20:19:44 1999 Subject: Silk lines at SRG? I was just wondering if anyone intends to bring any rods to SRG whichhavesilk line on them, kinda, sorta for some of us rookies to cast maybe?(Hint,hint!) Never hurts to ask, Mike from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Oct 14 20:51:13 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Silk lines at SRG? YES - a #4 ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Silk lines at SRG? I was just wondering if anyone intends to bring any rods to SRG whichhavesilk line on them, kinda, sorta for some of us rookies to cast maybe?(Hint,hint!) Never hurts to ask, Mike from jhewitt@cmn.net Thu Oct 14 20:54:44 1999 Subject: Re: TBBFR To all...I'm glad to see there were so many that supported the first year ofavery new enterprise, (TBBFR) the cost, headaches, unforeseen problemsEtc. ofstarting a new business are huge. For me, the price of a subscription tohelp Markalong is small. If I had a business to advertise I would. The dollarsinvested nowwill be miniscule, and well worth the gamble if the magazine succeeds. Itwill besomething we will all want to read and contribute to on a regular basis. IfMarkdoesn't make it, we will all have lost a lot more than just a few bucks. Rick C. wrote: Bret, I, too, want the magazine to succeed. I paid for one year and haveyetto receive the last issue (is there one even out which fulfills thefirst years subscription?). When TBBFR sent me a nice renewalreminder,I had to decide whether I should pay for another year. I opted not to.I would gladly pay for next years subscription if I thought thatTBBFRwas going to send magazines. I am not confident that they will. All Mr.Metcalf had to do was send a notice or letter slipped inside thesubscribers' copy explaining his situation. Is that so hard to do?Being in the communication business, I would have thought he wouldknowthe importance of it. Rick C. from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 14 21:02:09 1999 Subject: medved beveller HI,Does anyone offer a Medved style beveler set up commercially? Al, are you out there?Thanks,Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Thu Oct 14 21:16:02 1999 Subject: Re: medved beveller Hey I got dibs on the next Medved Beveler that comes off the assemblyline. :)))) Joe ----- Original Message ----- Subject: medved beveller HI,Does anyone offer a Medved style beveler set up commercially? Al, areyouout there?Thanks,Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 14 22:08:21 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: TBBFR Can someone tell me where to subscribe, please ? I know what it's like =to start a new venture, and I'd love to see the mag. too ! GMA Cc: Grhghlndr@AOL.com ; rsgould@cmc.net ; Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 8:49 PMSubject: Re: TBBFR To all...I'm glad to see there were so many that supported the =first year of avery new enterprise, (TBBFR) the cost, headaches, unforeseen problems =Etc. ofstarting a new business are huge. For me, the price of a subscription =to help Markalong is small. If I had a business to advertise I would. The dollars =invested nowwill be miniscule, and well worth the gamble if the magazine succeeds. =It will besomething we will all want to read and contribute to on a regular =basis. If Markdoesn't make it, we will all have lost a lot more than just a few =bucks. Rick C. wrote: Bret, I, too, want the magazine to succeed. I paid for one year =and have yetto receive the last issue (is there one even out which fulfills thefirst years subscription?). When TBBFR sent me a nice renewal =reminder,I had to decide whether I should pay for another year. I opted not =to.I would gladly pay for next years subscription if I thought =that TBBFRwas going to send magazines. I am not confident that they will. All =Mr.Metcalf had to do was send a notice or letter slipped inside thesubscribers' copy explaining his situation. Is that so hard to do?Being in the communication business, I would have thought he =would knowthe importance of it. Rick C. Can someone tell me where to subscribe, please ? I know = like to start a new venture, and I'd love to see the mag. too =! GMA ----- Original Message ----- John =Hewitt Cc: Grhghlndr@AOL.com ; rsgould@cmc.net ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Thursday, October 14, = PMSubject: Re: TBBFR = I'm glad to see there were so many that supported the first year of = new enterprise, (TBBFR) the cost, headaches, unforeseen problems ofstarting a new business are huge. For me, the price of a = help Markalong is small. If I had a business to advertise I would. = dollars invested nowwill be miniscule, and well worth the gamble = magazine succeeds. It will besomething we will all want to read = contribute to on a regular basis. If Markdoesn't make it, we will = lost a lot more than just a few bucks.Rick C. = = to receive the last issue (is there one even out which fulfills = I opted not = would gladly pay for next years subscription if I thought that = = the = C. from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 14 22:26:18 1999 Subject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: CommanderCuttyhunk, Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 14 22:39:43 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted There are several things that are happening during the casting of a fly =line. Prefacing all this with the super slick new lines, that do drag =more in the guides. The reason they drag more, is not only are they =larger in diameter, but unless the guides are constantly lubricated, =they have more surface area that has more of a tendency to act as a =brake. With a silk, or even the early nylon lines, there was a rougher =surface, so less area actually touched the guide(s). As for the force(s) that aid in removing the water, when the line is =picked up, there are two majors; 1.) Movement; 2.) Gravity. As the line =moves, it is accelerating, and this starts the water off. We've all =false cast, more than once, to get even more off. There is one other factor, that we've all had, and that is the old lines =absorbing water. This not only increases the density, but it decreases a =given rod's ability, to maintain the distance achieved with a dry line ! It is a proven fact in aerodynamics, that often a slick wing, will not =lift as well as one that has even a matt finish. This is dealing with =Reynolds numbers far below full scale aircraft, and falls into the realm =of model aerodynamics ! And finally, the new lines certainly need larger guides, to pass the =line more freely. GMA Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:44 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted Ok, got a question here... rarely have I fished silk lines, but =when youpull one from the water all the little nooks and crannies in the =braidedline are full of water... water laying on top of the surface of the =flyline... false cast then cast, then is the line not relatively free of =water(don't say the "whipping" of the line does it, cause we aren't =supposed tocast like that LOL)... if a Boundary Layber (BL) applies to a silk =line tothe extent that air does not flow over the fine braids of the line, =thenwhat force removes the water from all surfaces of the line? Removal of=thewater, in a physics sense is work, and work cannot be done without =someforce. The line is adhesive, the water is definitely adhesive, so =there hasto be a force at work to remove the water from everywhere on the line. =Ijust figured it was the air flow on, in and around the braids of the =linethat did it. Not arguing here, just curious. I really don't know theanswer, but logic would seem to dictate, to me at least, that IF the =air iscapable of removing the water from within the small nooks and crannies=ofthe braid, then the BL may be so miniscule that it is nearly =insignificant.The example of the canvas canoe was an excellent example for breaking =thetension in water, however, fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are not =the samething, as air and water do not have the same basic characteristics =(ie,compressability or lack of it). Two different classes and two =differenttheories when I was in school.Now, the 1.55 was a flawed memory chip (mine... not the =computers).That figure was what I THOUGHT I remembered as being a factor by which=tomultiply diamter to get the twice the cross seciontal area of a =cylinder,but, put my calculator to work, and it is much closer to 1.4073. So, =now mycontention was that in order to have resistance to the air in the cast =equalto the braided fly line (if the surface area of the braids were indeed =twicethe surface area of a pvc line the same diameter), then, the pvc fly =linewould have to be 1.4073 times larger (cross-sectional area) than the =braidedfly line. In other words, if you had a braided line that was .050" =diameterthen the PVC line would have to be approx. .070" diameter to have the =sameamount of surface area. Of course this is based on my assumption that =theBL is so insignificant on a braided fly line that it is not worthconsidering, especially at the low velocities we are considering with =a flyline, and that MAY or MAY NOT be a fair assumption.I also agree that mass does not enter into figuring drag =coefficient,however, the mass is a very important part of the overall equation. =Manythings do... density, the flexibility of the lines (one that will =throw atighter loop will have less of the "overall" area of the line ="cutting" 90degrees to the air at a given time), etc. This is what I was talking =aboutwhen I referred to angles of deflection being an additional =determiningfactor in castability. Items of different mass, density, area, =flexibility,etc. react differently, in the overall formula, to like forces. I =re-readmy post and it did sound like I was including mass as a part of the =dragcoefficient... sorry, a syntax blunder on my part. I did mean to say =thatit was an important factor to be considered in the overall scenario of =whathappens to each line during casting, not to imply that drag was =dependantupon mass.And Ed, you are right... I am beginning to have flashbacks toEngineering Physics here... LOL very academic thread! Hmmmmm... =should Idrag out my old Thermodynamics text books and see how muchtemperature =would... Never mind, just being a smart a%%. Later,Bob PS: Shouldn't we all be out in the shop flattening nodes!!! LOL -----Original Message-----From: eestlow@srminc.com Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 2:51 PMSubject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted An additional thought: Bob, a reminder, mass doesn't enter into drag coefficient. Nor does =size.Drag coefficient is independent of either, being based solely on =shape.Also, unless you're figuring that air is flowing through all the =littlechannels between the braids, I would submit that drag coefficient IS =basedon the frontal area of the line. Therefore, surface area wouldn't =come intoplay. I would think that all those little channels become stagnation =areasand effectively take themselves out of the aerodynamic question. Andbuilding on what Harry said, unless the Reynolds number is sufficient =forseparation to occur, it may well stay attached most of the way around =aline, regardless of surface roughness. If so, a silk and a PVC would =havethe same drag characteristics, the silk having less due only to its =smallerdiameter. Hmmm....... pretty academic thread..... Best,-Ed "Bob Nunley" ListServe"Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: =Fw: SilkLines Revisted 10/14/99 01:43 PMPlease respond tocaneman To a certain extent I agree, however, surface irregularities, =such asthose found on braided lines, produce a much greater surface area to =beexposed to the air in casting than is found on a PVC line's surface.Duringthe "cast", it would seem that the braided line would have a much =greaterresistance to the air than a "slick" line of equal diamter solely =becauseithas much more effective surface area. Depending on the coarseness of =thebraid, this exposed surface area, affecting the drag coefficient, =could beas much as twice that of a PVC line the same diameter. If that is =thecase,(and nope, I haven't checked it out) then a PVC line would have to,theoretically, be 1.55 times larger in diameter (working from memory =here)than a braided line to have the same drag coefficient, but this of =coursedoesn't take into account the differences in Mass of the two lines. =Whenconsidering an aerodynamic problem which this obviously is, then =totalsurface area must be taken into account, not just the area of half =thecircumference of the object, the line, but the total area of all =surfacesexposed to drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these =surfacesand the mass of the objects. from an engineering standpoint, it would make sense that a =braided line(assuming it was properly maintained and well finished) would have =lessguide drag than an PVC surfaced line, simply because there is less =linesurface contact with the guides at any given time. The entire area of =thecontact patch is not in actual contact with the guides, only the highpointsof the braids. Think of it like a pair of racing slicks on an Indy =car.Slicks (PVC lines) have more "traction" (line/guide resistance) =becausethere is more surface area in contact with the ground (the guides) =than isthe case with the treaded tire (braided silk line), thus producing =morefriction and opposition to slipping.I guess my point here is that we are comparing apples and =oranges. Myhumble opinion is that the silks and the PVC's each have their =distinctadvantages. I prefer PVC's for two reasons... #1... a quality PVC =line ismuch cheaper than a quality silk line, and #2, a PVC line requires =muchlessmaintenance. In other words, I guess I am a lazy tightwad LOL. Bob -----Original Message-----I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all =thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a =rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass =timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through =theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich"10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblurAs I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the =amount ofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight =of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much =higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter =of thenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given =amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much =more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter =thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide =drag"problem ? There are several things that are happening during the = fly line. Prefacing all this with the super slick new lines, that do = in the guides. The reason they drag more, is not only are they larger in = diameter, but unless the guides are constantly lubricated, they have = surface area that has more of a tendency to act as a brake. With a silk, = the early nylon lines, there was a rougher surface, so less area = touched the guide(s). As for the force(s) that aid in removing the water, when = is picked up, there are two majors; 1.) Movement; 2.) Gravity. As the = moves, it is accelerating, and this starts the water off. We've all = more than once, to get even more off. There is one other factor, that we've all had, and that is = lines absorbing water. This not only increases the density, but it = ! It is a proven fact in aerodynamics, that often a slick = not lift as well as one that has even a matt finish. This is dealing = Reynolds numbers far below full scale aircraft, and falls into the realm = model aerodynamics ! And finally, the new lines certainly need larger guides, to = the line more freely. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Bob =Nunley Makers List Serve Sent: Thursday, October 14, = PM Revisted fished silk lines, but when youpull one from the water all the = nooks and crannies in the braidedline are full of water... water = the line not relatively free of water(don't say the "whipping" of = does it, cause we aren't supposed tocast like that LOL)... if a = Layber (BL) applies to a silk line tothe extent that air does not = over the fine braids of the line, thenwhat force removes the water = all surfaces of the line? Removal of thewater, in a physics sense = water is definitely adhesive, so there hasto be a force at work to = the water from everywhere on the line. Ijust figured it was the = seem to dictate, to me at least, that IF the air iscapable of = water from within the small nooks and crannies ofthe braid, then = may be so miniscule that it is nearly insignificant.The example of = canvas canoe was an excellent example for breaking thetension in = = 1.55 was a flawed memory chip (mine... not the computers).That = what I THOUGHT I remembered as being a factor by which tomultiply= to get the twice the cross seciontal area of a cylinder,but, put = mycontention was that in order to have resistance to the air in = equalto the braided fly line (if the surface area of the braids = indeed twicethe surface area of a pvc line the same diameter), = pvc fly linewould have to be 1.4073 times larger (cross-sectional = that was .050" diameterthen the PVC line would have to be approx. = based on my assumption that theBL is so insignificant on a braided = line that it is not worthconsidering, especially at the low = figuring drag coefficient,however, the mass is a very important = the overall equation. Manythings do... density, the flexibility of = lines (one that will throw atighter loop will have less of the = of deflection being an additional determiningfactor in = say thatit was an important factor to be considered in the overall = scenario of whathappens to each line during casting, not to imply = are = right... I am beginning to have flashbacks toEngineering Physics = = Thermodynamics text books and see how much temperature would... = Message-----From: eestlow@srminc.com Rodmakers@srminc.com reminder, mass doesn't enter into drag coefficient. Nor does = = = = Sent by:<rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= owner- = = = = = = = = = must be taken into account, not just the area of half = of the object, the line, but the total area of all = drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these = = with the guides at any given time. The entire area of = = = = = drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float = = from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 15 00:09:16 1999 00:08:30 -0500 ix1.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Re: medved beveller Bob, I am using a beveler made by JW Flyrods that is easy to use, works verywell, and costs a whole lot less. I'll be bringing it with me to thewestern gathering in Bishop, Ca october 30-31 if you would like to tryit out. Jeremy Gray bob maulucci wrote: HI,Does anyone offer a Medved style beveler set up commercially? Al, areyouout there?Thanks,Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 15 02:31:23 1999 Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:31:01 +0800 Subject: Re: TBBFR After reading all these posts that come out every expected issue about themag let me say as probably the only person to have so far gotten exactlywhat I've expected from this mag as I have not subscribed and have alsonotreceived any issues ;-) that Marks' actually not doing a bad job in makingthis thing not just go but continue, hell I can't even give an accurate ETAof a rod when I make it let alone put out a mag which I suspect is trickierthan assembling a few bits and pieces and ensuring a nice varnish.I have to admit to being a little disappointed in myself for notsubscribing in the first place but I'll fix that directly. Mark's on ourside and we should encourage him, though judging by the posts I seenobody's being critical which is nice to see.Sue's right, waiting for something is a bit of a novelty in this day andage, and it's nice to see something can actually exist outside the norm. Tony At 05:08 PM 10/14/99 -0600, SueK wrote: my .03 worth on this : I talked to Mark Metcalf today just to see how things are going. He said the new issue should be out here soon. I really want to see this magazine go over and I think it will. I have to smile at this 'issue' of the mag not getting out ontime. While I too have become accustomed to on-time oractually in the case of most mag subscriptions, months inadvance time delivery (you know, the magazine has Decemberissue printed on the outside, yet you receive it in October),remember that back in the olden days, these things took theirown sweet time. Fledgling postal service, pony express andworse :-) So I agree, we'll cut him some slack. Guys, ( and Girls) I encourage you to support him and givehim some positive feedback if you can. I know I could/should go upstairs and look up their emailaddress, but think it would serve wider purpose if someonewould post that email addy, then we can send the old boysome positive emails ! *S*suenorthern tier-annied part of coloradoWhere we ARE still happily fishing. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@rockclimbing.org Fri Oct 15 04:46:12 1999 Subject: Re: silk lines slight return I have a Sunset Line & Twine size F silk line. They are/were in SanFrancisco, CA my line is marked Oil-Tex. Also I have a Sunset 1947-48 catalog. The Cuttyhunk models appear to bemadeof linen and there are several models, none named Commander... sorry Ican'tbe more help... There are a couple of nylon lines in this catalog and so I guess it istransitioning into the "modern" era... Glad you brought up Sunset... gave me a chance to look at the interestingcatalog... lots of pics of the factory and stuff... maybe I'll post somepics on my board if people would be interested in seeing what you cancatchwith "obsolete" braided linen and silk lines... there are some pics of a810# bluefin tuna and a 745# mako shark... You should see the scaryreels...BIG! Can't make them out but they must be vom Hofe, Fin Nor or PennInternationals (if they made Penns that long ago) or the like... 10/0 orbigger! Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: CommanderCuttyhunk,Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com from mschaffer@mindspring.com Fri Oct 15 04:48:25 1999 Subject: Book wanted Hey guys, just wondering if anyone had an extra copy of Lambuth's book"TheAngler's Workshop" that they might want to let loose of.If so, please give me a buzz back privately, TIA. Mike from richjez@enteract.com Fri Oct 15 07:22:37 1999 Subject: Re: Book wanted Barnes & Nobel. com has a collectors edition for $195.Rich At 05:58 AM 10/15/99 -0400, Mike Shaffer wrote:Hey guys, just wondering if anyone had an extra copy of Lambuth's book"TheAngler's Workshop" that they might want to let loose of.If so, please give me a buzz back privately, TIA. Mike *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@ /||/______/_||_________________________________________||/\/ \ > > from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Fri Oct 15 08:49:21 1999 Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:49:14 -0700 Subject: Great event (was Re: Silk lines at SRG?) --------------D2B84F4DB057F610F60E5759 Mike Shaffer wrote: I was just wondering if anyone intends to bring any rods to SRG whichhavesilk line on them, kinda, sorta for some of us rookies to cast maybe?(Hint,hint!) Never hurts to ask, Mike Friends, Speaking of SRG 99, I don't miss many opportunities for promotion.You probably know that by now. This is shaping up quite nicely. I'vereceivedregistration fees from 43 different folks, from complete newbies toseasonedveterans to some of the best rodmakers in the world. We expect manymore"walk-ups", so we should have somewhere between 60-75 folks, from allcorners ofthe United States, and even one fellow from Norway (by way of Texas). SorryMorten!! Sounds like a congenial bunch.One of the highlights should be "The Cosmic Cast-Off". No this isn't aNasa sponsored casting contest. Instead, we're asking all who will tostring upa rod and place it on a rack. A description of the length, taper, line, and soon would be nice. Those who want will be afforded the opportunity tocome byand cast as many as 40-60 rods. Talk about a hands-on learningopportunity!I'll have pencil and paper available for those who want to steal tapers,guidemeasurements, etc.We'll begin on Thursday evening, October 28, with a program oncatchingfish in the White River System. At least two professional guides from theareawill be in attendance. Heck, one of them even taught me how to catch fishONDRY FLIES in the White River. So Wayne and you other purists, I've got anewtrick for you this year!!Friday night we've got a big fish fry- party planned. I'll provide thefish (catfish, not trout) and the rest of the meal. Sorry to all you non C&Rfolks, but I haven't eaten a salmonid in about 5 years now, though I keepsayingI'm going to. You provide any liquid you want. Are you listening, Mr.List-guy?We wrap up officially on Saturday afternoon, but most of us willeitherhang around and cast and tell lies, or fish if the water is right. Wish you could all join us, Harry --------------D2B84F4DB057F610F60E5759 Mike Shaffer wrote:I was just wondering if anyone intends to bringanyrods to SRG which havesilk line on them, kinda, sorta for some of us rookies to cast maybe?(Hint,hint!)Never hurts to ask,MikeFriends, 99, receivedregistration fees from 43 different folks, from complete newbies toseasoned manymore "walk-ups", so we should have somewhere between 60-75 folks,fromall corners of the United States, and even one fellow from Norway (by way bunch. should sponsored evening, October 28, with a program on catching fish in the White River I've got a new trick for you this year!! I haven't eaten a salmonid in about 5 years now, though I keep saying I'm Mr. List-guy? onSaturday afternoon, but most of us will either hang around and cast andtell lies, or fish if the water is right. us, --------------D2B84F4DB057F610F60E5759-- from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 11:13:53 1999 1999 09:26:06 PDT Subject: truncated ferrels gentlemen, i have an information deficit concerningtruncated ferrules. is there a rule-of-thumb as towhen to use them or is it personal preference or arethey used better on certain types of tapers? how muchdifference is there between a standard ferrule and ashorter one. i would appreciate any and all input. thanks! timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Oct 15 11:24:32 1999 Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:24:17 +0800 Subject: Re: truncated ferrels It's probably a good idea to keep to the regular size except for 3 piecerods and use thr truncated ferrile for the tip. Tony At 09:26 AM 10/15/99 -0700, timothy troester wrote:gentlemen, i have an information deficit concerningtruncated ferrules. is there a rule-of- thumb as towhen to use them or is it personal preference or arethey used better on certain types of tapers? how muchdifference is there between a standard ferrule and ashorter one. i would appreciate any and all input. thanks! timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from FISHWOOL@aol.com Fri Oct 15 11:48:51 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It tends to become a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, letalone fishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. from eestlow@srminc.com Fri Oct 15 12:21:46 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted 1999) at 10/15/9912:15:57 PM I suspect that inertia forces are responsible for ridding the line ofexcess water as the line goes through the loop. That's where I see a sprayin low- angle lighting conditions anyway, whether or not I'm buggy-whipping. Also, air doesn't become practically compressible until about Mach 0.3. (Onthe other hand, at certain points in the casting process, I suspect linespeed is above that. That's that cracking sound during the above mentionedbuggy-whipping - the tip of the line is breaking the sound barrier.)Therefore, the same fluid mechanics principles apply, whether the fluid isgaseous or liquid. Viscosity and density are the differences. For thatmatter, when you get water to thousands of PSI, it's quite compressible. All this is really interesting as an academic discussion, but the proof isin the testing - or fishing. Besides, the equations are too difficult. Best,-Ed "Bob Nunley" Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Silk LinesRevisted 10/14/99 04:44 PMPlease respond tocaneman Ok, got a question here... rarely have I fished silk lines, but whenyoupull one from the water all the little nooks and crannies in the braidedline are full of water... water laying on top of the surface of the flyline... false cast then cast, then is the line not relatively free ofwater(don't say the "whipping" of the line does it, cause we aren't supposed tocast like that LOL)... if a Boundary Layber (BL) applies to a silk line tothe extent that air does not flow over the fine braids of the line, thenwhat force removes the water from all surfaces of the line? Removal ofthewater, in a physics sense is work, and work cannot be done without someforce. The line is adhesive, the water is definitely adhesive, so therehasto be a force at work to remove the water from everywhere on the line. Ijust figured it was the air flow on, in and around the braids of the linethat did it. Not arguing here, just curious. I really don't know theanswer, but logic would seem to dictate, to me at least, that IF the air iscapable of removing the water from within the small nooks and cranniesofthe braid, then the BL may be so miniscule that it is nearly insignificant.The example of the canvas canoe was an excellent example for breakingthetension in water, however, fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are not thesamething, as air and water do not have the same basic characteristics (ie,compressability or lack of it). Two different classes and two differenttheories when I was in school.Now, the 1.55 was a flawed memory chip (mine... not the computers).That figure was what I THOUGHT I remembered as being a factor by whichtomultiply diamter to get the twice the cross seciontal area of a cylinder,but, put my calculator to work, and it is much closer to 1.4073. So, nowmycontention was that in order to have resistance to the air in the castequalto the braided fly line (if the surface area of the braids were indeedtwicethe surface area of a pvc line the same diameter), then, the pvc fly linewould have to be 1.4073 times larger (cross-sectional area) than thebraidedfly line. In other words, if you had a braided line that was .050"diameterthen the PVC line would have to be approx. .070" diameter to have thesameamount of surface area. Of course this is based on my assumption that theBL is so insignificant on a braided fly line that it is not worthconsidering, especially at the low velocities we are considering with a flyline, and that MAY or MAY NOT be a fair assumption.I also agree that mass does not enter into figuring drag coefficient,however, the mass is a very important part of the overall equation. Manythings do... density, the flexibility of the lines (one that will throw atighter loop will have less of the "overall" area of the line "cutting" 90degrees to the air at a given time), etc. This is what I was talkingaboutwhen I referred to angles of deflection being an additional determiningfactor in castability. Items of different mass, density, area, flexibility,etc. react differently, in the overall formula, to like forces. I re-readmy post and it did sound like I was including mass as a part of the dragcoefficient... sorry, a syntax blunder on my part. I did mean to say thatit was an important factor to be considered in the overall scenario ofwhathappens to each line during casting, not to imply that drag was dependantupon mass.And Ed, you are right... I am beginning to have flashbacks toEngineering Physics here... LOL very academic thread! Hmmmmm... should Idrag out my old Thermodynamics text books and see how muchtemperaturewould... Never mind, just being a smart a%%. Later,Bob PS: Shouldn't we all be out in the shop flattening nodes!!! LOL -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: Silk Lines Revisted An additional thought: Bob, a reminder, mass doesn't enter into drag coefficient. Nor does size.Drag coefficient is independent of either, being based solely on shape.Also, unless you're figuring that air is flowing through all the littlechannels between the braids, I would submit that drag coefficient ISbasedon the frontal area of the line. Therefore, surface area wouldn't comeintoplay. I would think that all those little channels become stagnation areasand effectively take themselves out of the aerodynamic question. Andbuilding on what Harry said, unless the Reynolds number is sufficient forseparation to occur, it may well stay attached most of the way around aline, regardless of surface roughness. If so, a silk and a PVC would havethe same drag characteristics, the silk having less due only to itssmallerdiameter. Hmmm....... pretty academic thread..... Best,-Ed "Bob Nunley" Serve"Sent by: owner-rodmakers@wugate cc:.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Fw:SilkLines Revisted 10/14/99 01:43 PMPlease respond tocaneman To a certain extent I agree, however, surface irregularities, such asthose found on braided lines, produce a much greater surface area to beexposed to the air in casting than is found on a PVC line's surface.Duringthe "cast", it would seem that the braided line would have a much greaterresistance to the air than a "slick" line of equal diamter solely becauseithas much more effective surface area. Depending on the coarseness ofthebraid, this exposed surface area, affecting the drag coefficient, could beas much as twice that of a PVC line the same diameter. If that is thecase,(and nope, I haven't checked it out) then a PVC line would have to,theoretically, be 1.55 times larger in diameter (working from memoryhere)than a braided line to have the same drag coefficient, but this of coursedoesn't take into account the differences in Mass of the two lines. Whenconsidering an aerodynamic problem which this obviously is, then totalsurface area must be taken into account, not just the area of half thecircumference of the object, the line, but the total area of all surfacesexposed to drag & friction, the angles of deflection on all these surfacesand the mass of the objects. from an engineering standpoint, it would make sense that a braidedline(assuming it was properly maintained and well finished) would have lessguide drag than an PVC surfaced line, simply because there is less linesurface contact with the guides at any given time. The entire area of thecontact patch is not in actual contact with the guides, only the highpointsof the braids. Think of it like a pair of racing slicks on an Indy car.Slicks (PVC lines) have more "traction" (line/guide resistance) becausethere is more surface area in contact with the ground (the guides) than isthe case with the treaded tire (braided silk line), thus producing morefriction and opposition to slipping.I guess my point here is that we are comparing apples and oranges. Myhumble opinion is that the silks and the PVC's each have their distinctadvantages. I prefer PVC's for two reasons... #1... a quality PVC line ismuch cheaper than a quality silk line, and #2, a PVC line requires muchlessmaintenance. In other words, I guess I am a lazy tightwad LOL. Bob -----Original Message-----I thought guide drag was why the slick lines were developed. I can'timagine the line finish affecting the aerodynamics of the line all thatmuch. Reed is right - this is mostly an aerodynamics problem - a rightcircular cylinder's frontal area presented to the relative wind (airvelocity). The weight of the line enters into its momentum (mass timesvelocity). This in turn relates to the line's ability to push through theair. Best regards,-Ed Estlow "george M. Aldrich"10/13/99 07:44 PMPlease respond tonoblurAs I had it explained to me, way back in the 1950's, each rod has anability to handle just so much line, past the tip. The weight of thisamount of line, is the governing factor. I have no idea what the amountofdistance is involved, when considering this weight, but the weight of thesubstance, of the material used, is the key. Since silk has a much higherdensity, a smaller diameter will weigh more than an equal diameter ofthenewer synthetics being used. There is less wind resistance with thesmaller diameter, so this then gives better distance, for a given amountof weight, past the tip. As I see it, the super slick finish of the new lines, creates much more"guide drag", as well was wind resistance. Although it may float farbetter, its casting ability is hindered by these two factors. Enter thereturn of the silk line ! Perhaps it would pay the current line makers to consider the "guide drag"problem ? from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 15 17:27:26 1999 Subject: Fwd: From: bob maulucci Subject: Re: silk lines slight return At 02:45 AM 10/15/99 -0700, you wrote:I have a Sunset Line & Twine size F silk line. They are/were in SanFrancisco, CA my line is marked Oil-Tex. Also I have a Sunset 1947-48 catalog. The Cuttyhunk models appear tobe madeof linen and there are several models, none named Commander... sorry Ican'tbe more help... There are a couple of nylon lines in this catalog and so I guess it istransitioning into the "modern" era... Glad you brought up Sunset... gave me a chance to look at the interestingcatalog... lots of pics of the factory and stuff... maybe I'll post somepics on my board if people would be interested in seeing what you cancatchwith "obsolete" braided linen and silk lines... there are some pics of a810# bluefin tuna and a 745# mako shark... You should see the scaryreels...BIG! Can't make them out but they must be vom Hofe, Fin Nor or PennInternationals (if they made Penns that long ago) or the like... 10/0 orbigger! Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: bob maulucci Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 8:33 PMSubject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: CommanderCuttyhunk,Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com from bob@downandacross.com Fri Oct 15 17:41:28 1999 Subject: linen lines Thanks to Darrell for the info on Sunset silk lines. (Sorry for the double post)Is anyone familiar with linen lines? Are they to be avoided? Thanks,BobBob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from darrell@rockclimbing.org Fri Oct 15 18:35:17 1999 sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: GW Bishop Rodmakers Gathering 10/29-10/31 camping... BambooCulms I've ordered a couple of bales to be shipped to Bishop for the =gathering. I will be reserving some for myself and the rest will be =available for purchase by other participants if interested. If no one is =interested, I'll keep them. There will be a price savings for those =interested but the main advantage is that you can see and pick your =culms plus they will be in 12 ft lengths and you can cut them to =whatever size you want. If you rodmakers are planning on buying some =culms, please contact me OFF LIST so that I can get a rough idea as to =how many culms others want. If there is a larger demand, I can increase =my order so no one will be left wanting. I'm ordering a bale of butt cut =and one of middle cut. The middle cut has no growers marks are =straighter, less money and both bales are the premium 2-2.5" diameter =culms. If you are interested in purchasing some at the gathering, please =stipulate which type you want if you know... if everyone wants one type, =I can change my order on Monday but Demerest needs enough time to truck=it from the East Coast. The only stipulation is that you MUST notify me before Monday 10/18 NOON=so I can append the order if need be. To get the 12ft length, the culms =have to be trucked. If you are interested, please contact me off list =and I will be happy to discuss the options and prices available to us. =There's no obligation or upfront money required by me, but those who =RSVP will get to pick their cane in the order they RSVP to me how many =pieces they want. I plan on keeping a minimum of 15 culms and one lister =has indicated he may want 10 so that's 25 which leaves 15 still =available. So, RSVP NOW! Here's the URL that has the more detailed info for the gathering. =Limited free camping is available. See forum at... HTTP://server2.ezboard.com:8080/fanglerscollectiblescollectingfishingrodb=uildingannouncementseventscalendar See ya there... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com Regards, Darrell Lee I'veordered a = bales to be shipped to Bishop for the gathering. I will be reserving = myself and the rest will be available for purchase by other participants = interested. If no one is interested, I'll keep them. There will be a = savings for those interested but the main advantage is that you can see = your culms plus they will be in 12 ft lengths and you can cut them to = size you want. If you rodmakers are planning on buying some culms, = contact me OFF LIST so that I can get a rough idea as to how many culms = want. If there is a larger demand, I can increase my order so no one = left wanting. I'm ordering a bale of butt cut and one of middle cut. The = cut has no growers marks are straighter, less money and both bales are = premium 2-2.5" diameter culms. If you are interested in purchasing = the gathering, please stipulate which type you want if you know... if = wants one type, I can change my order on Monday but Demerest needs = to truck it from the East Coast. The only stipulation is that = notify me before Monday 10/18 NOON so I can append the order if need be.= the 12ft length, the culms have to be trucked. If you are interested, = contact me off list and I will be happy to discuss the options and = available to us. There's no obligation or upfront money required by me, = those who RSVP will get to pick their cane in the order they RSVP to me = pieces they want. I plan on keeping a minimum of 15 culms and one lister = NOW! Here's the URL that has the = at... HTTP://server2.ezboard.com:80=80/fanglerscollectiblescollectingfishingrodbuildingannouncementseventscal=endar See ya there... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com Regards, Darrell =Lee from HARMS1@prodigy.net Fri Oct 15 19:43:34 1999 Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:43:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Too true! Also, WD40 tends to "attract" dust and grit particles--thus, =in the long run, actually destroying the tolerances of finely mated =surfaces. It's great for certain applications, but "miracle stuff" it ain't. Take =care where you use it. cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It = become a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, = fishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. Too = Also, WD40 tends to "attract" dust and grit particles--thus, = surfaces. It's great for = use it. Bill -----Original = FISHWOOL@aol.com = <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, October 15, 1999 9:53 AMSubject: Re: Fw: = contain silicone? I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It tends to = become a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in = Hank. from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 15 22:36:08 1999 +0000 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Hank, I have used WD40 on my guns for quite a long time now on and off. In apinch it works pretty well. While I don't use it regularly, it makes agood cleaner and rust preventer. A good rinse with some 1, 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's not Prop 65friendly, but I still have 1/2 gallon of the stuff!). Just don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves handy! Dennis FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, letalonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 15 22:37:56 1999 +0000 Subject: Re: Great event (was Re: Silk lines at SRG?) Harry Boyd wrote: We wrap up officially on Saturday afternoon, but most of uswill either hang around and cast and tell lies, or fish if the wateris right. Wish you could all join us, Harry Me too, Harry! Sounds like a good time! Enjoy! Dennis-- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 15 22:46:31 1999 Sat, 16 Oct 1999 03:45:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Bill, Any oil will do that. Just take a look under your car! Any oil thathas leaked out onto your chassis or oil pan, etc., will be caked withdirt. The same holds true with a reel, gun, or anything that has oil onit and is exposed to dusty conditions. That's why it is so important tokeep your gear clean. I have to admit that I am not as conscientious asI used to be, but I used to wash my gear with warm soapy water aftereach use (then, a good rinse and dry, of course). I would thensparingly oil my reel(s) as it (they) seemed to need it. Just my 2 cents worth... Dennis WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Too true! Also, WD40 tends to "attract" dust and gritparticles--thus, in the long run, actually destroying the tolerancesof finely mated surfaces. It's great for certain applications, but "miracle stuff" it ain't.Take care where you use it. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: FISHWOOL@aol.com Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:53 AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no.It tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even inguns, let alonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from noblur@stic.net Fri Oct 15 23:43:57 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Above all, WD-40 is NOT a lubricant ! it does fine, when storing =something that could rust, but it's not for moving parts. In fishing the =salt, you must wash everything, each day, but a light spray of WD-40 =sure helps control corrosion, until you can wash it all off ! GMA Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com ; noblur@stic.net ; Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 1:47 AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Bill, Any oil will do that. Just take a look under your car! Any oil thathas leaked out onto your chassis or oil pan, etc., will be caked withdirt. The same holds true with a reel, gun, or anything that has oil =onit and is exposed to dusty conditions. That's why it is so important =tokeep your gear clean. I have to admit that I am not as conscientious =asI used to be, but I used to wash my gear with warm soapy water aftereach use (then, a good rinse and dry, of course). I would thensparingly oil my reel(s) as it (they) seemed to need it. Just my 2 cents worth... Dennis WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Too true! Also, WD40 tends to "attract" dust and gritparticles--thus, in the long run, actually destroying the tolerancesof finely mated surfaces. It's great for certain applications, but "miracle stuff" it ain't.Take care where you use it. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: FISHWOOL@aol.com Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:53 AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no.It tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even inguns, let alonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! Above all, WD-40 is NOT a lubricant ! it does fine, when = something that could rust, but it's not for moving parts. In fishing the = you must wash everything, each day, but a light spray of WD-40 sure = control corrosion, until you can wash it all off ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- Dennis Haftel Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com ; noblur@stic.net ; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Saturday, October 16, = AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it = silicone? or anything that has oil onit and is exposed to dusty = admit that I am not as conscientious asI used to be, but I used to = gear with warm soapy water aftereach use (then, a good rinse and = need it.Just my 2 cents = It's great for certain applications, but "miracle stuff" it = <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= = = = Hank.-- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that = from goingcrazy! from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sat Oct 16 06:02:08 1999 Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:20:09 +0800 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? The gunsmith I worked for while at school used CRC or WD40 but alwaysstored the guns barrel down.I also vaguely remember using a black spray can with orange writingcalledTriflon or Trifow. This was thought to be good stuff as it wasn't suposedto leave a deposit, as far as I know it didn't either. Don't know how itgoes as a fish attractant though.It can from the same people who did Silenco ear plugs that worked prettywell, or maybe they didn't and that's why I'm hard of hearing now. Tony At 11:37 PM 10/15/99 -0700, Dennis Haftel wrote:Hank, I have used WD40 on my guns for quite a long time now on and off. In apinch it works pretty well. While I don't use it regularly, it makes agood cleaner and rust preventer. A good rinse with some 1, 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's not Prop 65friendly, but I still have 1/2 gallon of the stuff!). Just don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves handy! Dennis FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, letalonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Oct 16 20:55:26 1999 Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:43:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Dennis, No, not every oil has the film-fouling properties of WD40. I'm sorry, =it just isn't true. Any competent gunsmith will confirm this. And the =caked-on oil and grit under our cars is not evidence that =oil-is-oil-is-oil. It just ain't so. cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Haftel Cc: FISHWOOL@aol.com ; noblur@stic.net =; RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu = Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 8:48 PMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Bill, Any oil will do that. Just take a look under your car! Any oil =thathas leaked out onto your chassis or oil pan, etc., will be caked =withdirt. The same holds true with a reel, gun, or anything that has =oil onit and is exposed to dusty conditions. That's why it is so =important tokeep your gear clean. I have to admit that I am not as =conscientious asI used to be, but I used to wash my gear with warm soapy water aftereach use (then, a good rinse and dry, of course). I would thensparingly oil my reel(s) as it (they) seemed to need it. Just my 2 cents worth... Dennis WILLIAM A HARMS wrote: Too true! Also, WD40 tends to "attract" dust and gritparticles--thus, in the long run, actually destroying the =tolerancesof finely mated surfaces. It's great for certain applications, but "miracle stuff" it ain't.Take care where you use it. cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: FISHWOOL@aol.com Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:53 AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no.It tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even inguns, let alonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! Dennis, No, not every oil has the film-fouling properties = Bill -----Original = Dennis Haftel <HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net= HARMS1@prodigy.net = <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, October 15, 1999 8:48 PMSubject: Re: Fw: = it contain silicone?Bill,Any oil will = as conscientious asI used to be, but I used to wash my gear with = soapy water aftereach use (then, a good rinse and dry, of = I would thensparingly oil my reel(s) as it (they) seemed to need = it.Just my 2 cents = = <RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu= I = = = = = Hank.-- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that = from goingcrazy! from HARMS1@prodigy.net Sat Oct 16 20:58:04 1999 Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:32:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All, Yes, WD40 is a great rust-preventer and a pretty good cleaner, but on = pinch." And then get rid of the stuff as soon as you can. There are = Trichloroethane has always been the very best de-greaser/cleaner, and =there is still no equal on the market. But 1-1-1 is no longer available = recommend using it even "with caution." cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Haftel Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Hank, I have used WD40 on my guns for quite a long time now on and off. =In apinch it works pretty well. While I don't use it regularly, it =makes agood cleaner and rust preventer. A good rinse with some 1, 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's not Prop =65friendly, but I still have 1/2 gallon of the stuff!). Just don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves handy! = Dennis FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It =tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, =let alonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. All, Yes, = great rust-preventer and a pretty good cleaner, but on critical, moving = And then get rid of the = always been the very best de-greaser/cleaner, and there is still = good reason--it is death-dealing stuff, and I would not recommend using = "with caution." Bill -----Original = Dennis Haftel <HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, October 15, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: Re: Fw: = it contain silicone?Hank,I have used = 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's = don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves = = Hank. from dpizza@access1.net Sat Oct 16 21:39:42 1999 Subject: test No messages this weekend?? No messages this =weekend?? from noblur@stic.net Sat Oct 16 21:40:56 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? MEK or acetone makes a good substitute for 1-1-1 though ! You are smack =on with this though ! GMA Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 11:29 AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? All, Yes, WD40 is a great rust-preventer and a pretty good cleaner, but on = pinch." And then get rid of the stuff as soon as you can. There are = Trichloroethane has always been the very best de-greaser/cleaner, and =there is still no equal on the market. But 1-1-1 is no longer available = recommend using it even "with caution." cheers, Bill-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Haftel Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Hank, I have used WD40 on my guns for quite a long time now on and off. =In apinch it works pretty well. While I don't use it regularly, it =makes agood cleaner and rust preventer. A good rinse with some 1, 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's not Prop =65friendly, but I still have 1/2 gallon of the stuff!). Just don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves handy! = Dennis FISHWOOL@aol.com wrote: All,I worked in a gun shop for 6 years and WD40 was a no-no. It =tends tobecome a varnish over time and gums up moving parts, even in guns, =let alonefishing reels, etc.Just my $.02,Hank. MEK or acetone makes a good substitute for 1-1-1 though != smack on with this though ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- HARMS ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Saturday, October 16, = AMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it = silicone? All, great rust-preventer and a pretty good cleaner, but on critical, = use it "only in a = then get rid of thestuff = has always been the very best de-greaser/cleaner, and there is still= good reason--it is death-dealing stuff, and I would not recommend = even "with caution." Bill -----Original = Dennis Haftel <HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, October 15, 1999 8:40 PMSubject: Re: Fw: = it contain silicone?Hank,I have used = 1,1-trichloroethane, and you're good as new (Yes, I know it's = don'tbreathe too often and keep a good supply of nitrile gloves = = Hank. from edriddle@mindspring.com Sat Oct 16 22:46:45 1999 Subject: TBBFR Several of you have expressed support of TBBFR and I'd like to do the mypart. What's the annual subscription rate? How many issues would thatgetme? What's the mailing address? I subscribe to the 3 largest flyfishingmags. plus TU and the last artcle relating to bamboo rods I recall seeingout of all this was in "American Angler", Jan/Feb '99 issue. If you'rehere, seems like you oughta be there too. Oh, if this info was recentlysupplied on this list, please resubmit. I've been knocked off this listagain.Just me talking.....usual disclaimers.Ed from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 23:13:06 1999 1999 21:16:45 PDT Subject: test test ===== __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from stpete@netten.net Sat Oct 16 23:50:54 1999 Subject: TBBFR Bret and List, I checked my Bamboo Fly Rod magazines the other day. Seems that I didreceive all issues. I was unaware that the last issue I got was a"double" covering vols. 5 and 6. I just wanted the list to know, that Iwas one of the subscribers who received all issues in a relativelytimely fashion (meaning I did not have to call or write to get anissue). So this means that I am going to renew my subscription. Rick C. from chris@artistree.com Sun Oct 17 02:22:38 1999 Subject: Re: TBBFR & Other Mags To all,The info is listed on my site http://www.artistree.com/SplitCaneLibrary/Click "Articles & Periodicals section." If you are into the general fly fishing mags you might also want tosubscribe to "The Angler's Journal." Quite frankly it's only one of twoI hold a subscription to as I don't care for the other "mass marketed"rags. The other one is "American Fly Fisher" which you receive for beinga member of the American Museum of Fly Fishing. Both are quarterlypublications but in my opinion contain better articles that a year'sworth of all the other mags put together. Just my opinion and I'll getoff that subject before I write something I'll regret. Regards,Chris Wohlford Ed Riddle wrote: Several of you have expressed support of TBBFR and I'd like to do the mypart. What's the annual subscription rate? How many issues would thatgetme? What's the mailing address? I subscribe to the 3 largest flyfishingmags. plus TU and the last artcle relating to bamboo rods I recall seeingout of all this was in "American Angler", Jan/Feb '99 issue. If you'rehere, seems like you oughta be there too. Oh, if this info was recentlysupplied on this list, please resubmit. I've been knocked off this listagain.Just me talking.....usual disclaimers.Ed from drinkr@voicenet.com Sun Oct 17 08:37:47 1999 0000 (207.103.93.55) Subject: Epon Resins I've been looking into the properties of Epon 828 and Epicure 3140 on theShell Chemical web page. The composition (resin / curing agent) I foundmost interesting was (100 parts/45 parts) cured for 16 hours at 25degrees Cfollowed by a post cure of 2 hours at 200 degrees C. The result is a resinwhich has a heat deflection of 94 degrees C. All other properties (tensile,compression, flexure, ect. ) are relatively improved as a result. I waswondering if or how many follow a post heat cure regimen with epon andisthe difference noteworthy. Thanks in advance, David Rinker from cmj@post11.tele.dk Sun Oct 17 12:53:52 1999 +0200 Subject: Binder - drawings. Hi all Due to a severe computer disaster I=B4ve lost the drawings can=B4t live without these drawings, as people keep asking mehow to build this device. Someone out there able to mail me the drawings?Please, PLEASE!!!! :-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen cmj@post11.tele.dk Hi all Due to a severe computer disaster I´ve lost = drawings = one,can´t live without these drawings, as people= mehow to build this device. Someone out there able to mail me the =drawings?Please, PLEASE!!!! :-)) regards, Carsten Jorgensen cmj@post11.tele.dk= from wgray@uidaho.edu Sun Oct 17 15:34:37 1999 NAA16983; Oct 1999 20:46:14 UT Subject: Re: TBBFR & Other Mags Chris, You are right on about the Angler's Journal. But what would you expect from an outfit in Livingston, with the Yellowsone river in their back yard? ;-) They also have a website at:http://www.anglersjournal.com/ Wilson Gray Date sent: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:31:51 +0000 Subject: Re: TBBFR & Other Mags To all,The info is listed on my sitehttp://www.artistree.com/SplitCaneLibrary/Click "Articles & Periodicals section." If you are into the general fly fishing mags you might also want tosubscribe to "The Angler's Journal." Quite frankly it's only one of two Ihold a subscription to as I don't care for the other "mass marketed" rags.The other one is "American Fly Fisher" which you receive for being amember of the American Museum of Fly Fishing. Both are quarterlypublications but in my opinion contain better articles that a year's worthof all the other mags put together. Just my opinion and I'll get off thatsubject before I write something I'll regret. Regards,Chris Wohlford Ed Riddle wrote: Several of you have expressed support of TBBFR and I'd like to do themypart. What's the annual subscription rate? How many issues wouldthatget me? What's the mailing address? I subscribe to the 3 largestflyfishing mags. plus TU and the last artcle relating to bamboo rods Irecall seeing out of all this was in "American Angler", Jan/Feb '99issue. If you're here, seems like you oughta be there too. Oh, if thisinfo was recently supplied on this list, please resubmit. I've beenknocked off this list again. Just me talking.....usual disclaimers. Ed from noblur@stic.net Sun Oct 17 16:08:35 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: silk lines slight return There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod, and even Cortland, perhaps ? GMA Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:22 AMSubject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: Commander = Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci= downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod, and even Cortland,= ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- maulucci = Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 = AMSubject: silk lines slight =returnAnyone familiar with silk line brand names? How Commander Cuttyhunk, Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any = = Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 = cellularbob@downandacross.com from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 17:47:58 1999 1999 15:52:10 PDT Subject: Silk Thread Sizing Experiment There has been quite a bit of discussion regarding therelative size of various brands of silk windingthread. The result was probably clear in the minds ofa few of the real pros, but it wasn't to to me. Itried a simplistic experiment to clear it up for me. Maybe it will help someone else.I marked about a 1/2" strip with pen marks on a scrapbamboo 1/4" strip. I then wrapped various threads tocover the area between the marks (unwinding each timeto re-use the same marked section). The results. Your mileage may vary. Pearsall 86 windsKinkame 52Tire 56KNK 72YLI 71Gudebrod "A" 51 ===== __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from bob@downandacross.com Sun Oct 17 17:55:51 1999 Subject: Re: silk lines slight return --=====================_1035356==_.ALT Thanks George,Which were the best ones?Bob At 04:07 PM 10/17/99 -0500, you wrote:There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod, and even Cortland, perhaps ? GMA----- Original Message -----From: bob maulucci Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:22 AMSubject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: CommanderCuttyhunk,Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com --=====================_1035356==_.ALT Thanks George,Which were the best ones?Bob At 04:07 PM 10/17/99 -0500, you wrote:There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod, andeven Cortland, perhaps ? GMA----- Original Message ----- From: bob maulucci Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:22 AMSubject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: CommanderCuttyhunk, Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com 218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular bob@downandacross.com --=====================_1035356==_.ALT-- from gjm80301@yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 17:57:19 1999 1999 16:07:00 PDT Subject: KNK Silk Thread Source? I have one roll of KNK in color 245 (almostchartreuse) that wraps well and reacts well toVarathane and spar varnish in terms of colorretention. Trouble is, I have had it for a while andhave no idea where I got it (unless Britex has some inaddition to Kinkame). Does anyone know where to get this? The roll has awhite label that says KNK in an almost undecipherablefont all the way around the outside and has a verysmall KNK in a box near the middle of the roll on theother side on a gold foil/red label with Japeneselettering, mostly. The thread is softer than YLI, butabout the same size. Thanks in advance. ===== __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from noblur@stic.net Sun Oct 17 18:03:19 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:03:10 -0500 Subject: Fw: silk lines slight return Subject: Re: silk lines slight return As I recall, Ashaway, was as good as you could get, in the local stores. =I lived in far South Texas then, near Brownsville. I didn't hear of =firms like Orvis until I was over 21 ! There must have been some special sources for those who lived in true =Trout Country ! Not to mention very high quality lines ! Still, I recall =ho much smaller my first Nylon "bugging line" (a GBF) was, compared to =today's high floaters ! GMA Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 8:51 PMSubject: Re: silk lines slight return Thanks George,Which were the best ones?Bob At 04:07 PM 10/17/99 -0500, you wrote: There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod, and even Cortland, perhaps ? GMA Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:22 AMSubject: silk lines slight return Anyone familiar with silk line brand names? How about: Commander = Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's Expert. Any help will be =appreciated.Bob Bob Maulucci= downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com Bob Maulucci= downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home bob@downandacross.com From:George M. =Aldrich Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 6:01 PMSubject: Re: silk lines slight return As I recall, Ashaway, was as good as you could get, in the = stores. I lived in far South Texas then, near Brownsville. I didn't hear = firms like Orvis until I was over 21 ! There must have been some special sources for those who = true Trout Country ! Not to mention very high quality lines ! Still, I = much smaller my first Nylon "bugging line" (a GBF) was, compared to = floaters ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- maulucci Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 = PM returnThanks George,Which were the best = 04:07 PM 10/17/99 -0500, you wrote:There was also Ashaway, and Gudebrod,= ----- Original Message ----- = bob maulucci = Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 1:22 = lines slight returnAnyone familiar with silk line brand = about: Commander Cuttyhunk, Sunset, Surf Chief and Newton's = = Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 = = audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 = bob@downandacross.com from Turbotrk@aol.com Sun Oct 17 18:08:05 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Bill carbon tet was the stuff Gods where made of. I saw a circuit boardthat had a good soaking in beer that was cleaned with the stuff. Ten yearslater, it is still working. stuart miller from LECLAIR123@aol.com Sun Oct 17 18:21:37 1999 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Working as a licensed Gunsmith for the past thirty years, I'veused them all. Carbon Tet and Trichloroethane III were thebest cleaners there ever was. Seems the best stuff for the job,always turns out to be bad for you. Most of the stuff on themarket today, just don't cut it. What ya gona do? PS. What Bill said about WD-40 used in guns is right. Inever used it to lubricate a firearm. I always used speciallubricants made for firearms. Dave LeClair from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 17 18:24:59 1999 Subject: Georgechat I have tried several times to post mail on uncle george's professionalrodmakers forum but get bounced off almost immediately. There are somejpegs and a review of a bastard in the codemarine website that can beaccessed through george's pageI mentioned that epoxy looks out of place on the silk wraps of a canerod and that the jpeg shows the cork handle to be "off center". Isuspect that uncle george deletes anything thatis not complementary.Colorado Soo seems to be able to push all the right buttons, so atpresent the professional rodmakers forum is just George and Soo.So if you think this list has been quite over the weekend.......Terry from hexagon@odyssee.net Sun Oct 17 18:35:10 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? I can think of a lot of fates worse than a "good soaking in beer". My fatherhasnagged me for years on my consumption of "the sparkling beverage". Lastmonth at82 he underwent a painful bout with a kidney stone that resulted in anoperation.The doctor said that his problem had been that he had never drank enoughover theyears!Terry Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Bill carbon tet was the stuff Gods where made of. I saw a circuit boardthathad a good soaking in beer that was cleaned with the stuff. Ten yearslater,it is still working. stuart miller from channer@hubwest.com Sun Oct 17 18:37:55 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat At 07:28 PM 10/17/1999 -0400, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote:I have tried several times to post mail on uncle george's professionalrodmakers forum but get bounced off almost immediately. There are somejpegs and a review of a bastard in the codemarine website that can beaccessed through george's pageI mentioned that epoxy looks out of place on the silk wraps of a canerod and that the jpeg shows the cork handle to be "off center". Isuspect that uncle george deletes anything thatis not complementary.Colorado Soo seems to be able to push all the right buttons, so atpresent the professional rodmakers forum is just George and Soo.So if you think this list has been quite over the weekend.......Terry Terry;I guess that's one old dog you can't teach any tricks to at all.John from channer@hubwest.com Sun Oct 17 18:44:18 1999 Subject: Re: Silk Thread Sizing Experiment At 03:52 PM 10/17/1999 -0700, Jerry Madigan wrote:There has been quite a bit of discussion regarding therelative size of various brands of silk windingthread. The result was probably clear in the minds ofa few of the real pros, but it wasn't to to me. Itried a simplistic experiment to clear it up for me. Maybe it will help someone else.I marked about a 1/2" strip with pen marks on a scrapbamboo 1/4" strip. I then wrapped various threads tocover the area between the marks (unwinding each timeto re-use the same marked section). The results. Your mileage may vary. Pearsall 86 windsKinkame 52Tire 56KNK 72YLI 71Gudebrod "A" 51 Jerry;How many times did you break the Gossamer before you got 86 turns ofthread? I have a hell of a time just getting a trim wrap done with it.Where do you get KNK and YLI brands. I really like #824 copper size 3/0 from Anglers. but they can't get it any more. Does anyone know ofsomewhereelse I get the same color, or close?John from avyoung@iinet.net.au Sun Oct 17 19:06:39 1999 Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:05:58 +0800 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I've forgotten, which English king drowned one of his brothers in wine?Quite a considerate if ruthless person if you ask me. Tony At 07:38 PM 10/17/99 -0400, TERENCE ACKLAND wrote:I can think of a lot of fates worse than a "good soaking in beer". Myfather hasnagged me for years on my consumption of "the sparkling beverage". Lastmonth at82 he underwent a painful bout with a kidney stone that resulted in anoperation.The doctor said that his problem had been that he had never drank enoughover theyears!Terry Turbotrk@aol.com wrote: Bill carbon tet was the stuff Gods where made of. I saw a circuit boardthathad a good soaking in beer that was cleaned with the stuff. Ten yearslater,it is still working. stuart miller /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@rockclimbing.org Sun Oct 17 20:16:29 1999 sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) Subject: I think everyone will be soaking in beer at the Bishop GWRodmakersGathering 10/29-10/31 Two or three people have volunteered to cook a vat of their chili and =we'll certainly need to soak in beer to cool our stomachs... Go to calendar/forums for current gathering directions, location =tenative agenda... URL below Darrell Lee www.bamboorods.homepage.com Two or three people have = cook a vat of their chili and we'll certainly need to soak in beer to = stomachs... Go to = below Darrell =Lee www.bamboorods.homepage.com from Fishnabug@aol.com Sun Oct 17 22:59:26 1999 Subject: Taper for 9' 2 piece for #4 Does anyone out there have a hex. taper for a 9' 2 or 3 piece for a #4 or 5 line? I'm looking at an old Montague taper, but I'd like a couple options. David M. from dmanders@telusplanet.net Mon Oct 18 07:28:37 1999 don") Mon, 18 Oct 1999 06:30:38 -0600 Subject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 08:02:18 1999 1999 06:16:44 PDT Subject: Re: If you had to take only one greetings! i fished all summer with a 8'5wt-6wt imade from a william warra taper. damn good rod! thisrod is a bit shorter than i prefer for bluegilling inillinois. i have fished with a walt powell 9'5wt iwould be willing to sacrifice body parts to own. alas! powell tapers seem to be hard to come by. timothy --- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote:Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the freshwater streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight wouldit be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mildpara taper. What do you think? Don ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from HARMS1@prodigy.net Mon Oct 18 08:03:45 1999 Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:03:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Well, yes, of course. But that stuff isn't available either--again, for =good reason.-----Original Message-----From: Turbotrk@aol.com HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net ; =rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 4:08 PMSubject: Re: Fw: WD40..does it contain silicone? Bill carbon tet was the stuff Gods where made of. I saw a circuit = had a good soaking in beer that was cleaned with the stuff. Ten = it is still working. stuart miller Well, = reason. -----Original = Turbotrk@aol.com =HARMS1@prodigy.net HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net= <HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net= rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Sunday, October 17, 1999 4:08 PMSubject: Re: Fw: = it contain silicone?Bill carbon tet was the = working.stuart miller from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Mon Oct 18 08:50:00 1999 +0200 Subject: Sv: If you had to take only one -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----Fra: Don & Sandy Andersen Til: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Emne: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don I'd opt for a PHY Para 15 with two tips, wet 'n dry. One rod - two actions.Nice touch, Yes? :-) regards,Carsten from caneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 18 08:56:34 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:55:00 -0500 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod I fishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long and short,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of line youneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from noblur@stic.net Mon Oct 18 09:15:13 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) "rod 'akers" Subject: Re: If you had to take only one In don't own a really fine "trout" rod, except for my Paul Young Midge =("Little Ike" for the one he gave the Pres.). but my Young #11 Parabolic =is such a pleasure, it would most likely be my choice ! GMA Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:16 AMSubject: Re: If you had to take only one greetings! i fished all summer with a 8'5wt-6wt imade from a william warra taper. damn good rod! thisrod is a bit shorter than i prefer for bluegilling inillinois. i have fished with a walt powell 9'5wt i --- Don & Sandy Andersen wrote:Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the freshwater streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight wouldit be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mildpara taper. What do you think? Don "Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com In don't own a really fine "trout" rod, except for my Paul = Midge ("Little Ike" for the one he gave the Pres.). but my Young #11 = is such a pleasure, it would most likely be my choice ! ----- Original Message ----- troester 'akers Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 = AMSubject: Re: If you had to take = one fished with a walt powell 9'5wt iwould be willing to sacrifice = bear"__________________________________________________Do Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Oct 18 09:25:09 1999 (5.5.2448.0) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: If you had to take only one A Dickerson 8013 8' #5 would be in my hand. It would be a little light forbass bugging and my occasional western trout fishing, but it would nicelycover the bulk of my fishing and it is a great taper. Bill Lamberson -----Original Message----- Subject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from jcollier@siu.edu Mon Oct 18 09:51:08 1999 Subject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? Also, Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planing forms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John from noblur@stic.net Mon Oct 18 10:06:20 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: contact point I assume you are speaking of a 60 deg. chamfer tool ? I can give you =many sizes and numbers form Travers Tool, but i don't even keep an Enco =catalog anymore. Their prices are too high ! GMA Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 11:47 AMSubject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? =Also, Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planing =forms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John I assume you are speaking of a 60 deg. chamfer tool ? I can= you many sizes and numbers form Travers Tool, but i don't even keep an = catalog anymore. Their prices are too high ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- John = = Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 = AMSubject: contact pointDoes anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip= help!John from gholland@navsys.com Mon Oct 18 10:22:00 1999 Subject: RE: contact point Enco may be reached at: 800-860-3400 If you are talking about the contact tip for your dial indicator tryStarrett at 508-249-3551 or www.qualitymag.com/starrett/offices No interest financially or otherwise....yada yada yada Greg -----Original Message----- Subject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? Also, Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planing forms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John from bills@nwlink.com Mon Oct 18 10:28:12 1999 Subject: Re: contact point John,I tried to purchase a 60 deg. point from ENCO but customer service couldnever produce a part number. DoAll Tools have 60 deg. contact points. Partnumber 608-101190. Price (1997) was $4.10. If there is not a DoAll storeinyour area, the Seattle phone number is 206-623-1191.Bill----- Original Message ----- Subject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? Also,Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planing forms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John from rmoon@ida.net Mon Oct 18 10:41:46 1999 0000 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one Don No question!! I would take my 7'6" 5 wt. Semi-parabolic. I have neverfound another rod that is as good. IMHHO. Ralph from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Oct 18 10:45:30 1999 sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) Subject: Re: Taper for 9' 2 piece for #4 Montague had a lot of different tapers... Even with the same model thereoften a trout wt and a bass wt... Do you know what model you are lookingfor? Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Taper for 9' 2 piece for #4 Does anyone out there have a hex. taper for a 9' 2 or 3 piece for a #4or5 line? I'm looking at an old Montague taper, but I'd like a coupleoptions. David M. from punky@integratedmillsystems.com Mon Oct 18 10:54:24 1999 10:53:42 -0500 ix3.ix.netcom.com viasmap (V1.3) Subject: Re: contact point -----Original Message----- Subject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? Also, Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planing forms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John Don't bother with ENCO. I don't think that they have one. I just orderedtheir 22 pc. point set in the hopes that there might be one, but no luck. The part we want is the Starrett # 6632/6. I emailed Starrett and they back the following recommendations: Contact your local Industrial Distributor or Home Center in your area thathandles Starrett products along with: W.W. Grainger - 800-CALL-WWGwww.grainger.com MSC - 800-645-7270www.mscdirect.com J & L Industrial - 800-521-9520www.jandlindustrial.com In checking the archives, I have seen folks offering to sell extra pointsthey have. If anyone currently has any spare points that they'd be willingto part with, I would be interested. Otherwise I will probably try one ofthe above sources. As far as planing forms, I'm currently building a set of forms from ThomasPenrose's excellent instructions. They are similar to the instructions inWayne Cattanach's book. Thomas' instructions can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/penr0295/forms.htm Hope this helps. Keith Brewster from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mon Oct 18 11:30:11 1999 9:34:56 PDT Subject: RE: Taper for 9' 2 piece for #4 A.J. Thramer has posted one of his tapers for a 9' 2pc. 4 wt. you can find it on the Rodmakers website at this address. http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/tapers/aj/thram94.html Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from jackdale@uswest.net Mon Oct 18 11:45:22 1999 (209.180.254.227) Subject: Re: If you had to take only one First, I'd find out who made such a dumb rule and show him/her why wegrow suchbigcottonwoods out west. Then I'd take my Mike Clark 8' 5wt. 3/2 and gofishing.Jack Dale Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from wbinn@michiana.org Mon Oct 18 12:34:52 1999 Subject: Re: contact point Try MSC. Get online through the link at Rodmakers and use their orderingprocess by specifying 60* contact points and their catalog part#86429800.They cost $3.45 each. The points are made by Starrett but ordering throughMSC is easy and they deliver fast. I ordered 4 of them two weeks ago on aMonday and had them by Friday.The usual disclaimer applies.Winston Binney from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Oct 18 12:36:07 1999 sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) Subject: 60* point Jon L. has them on his site too... the Starrett point... http://www.munrorodco.com No interest, blah, blah... Regards, Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com Jon L. has= too... the Starrett point... http://www.munrorodco.com No interest, blah, =blah... Regards, Darrell =Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com from rsgould@cmc.net Mon Oct 18 13:17:13 1999 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one Hi Don, from a guy who usually takes 5 or 6 rods with him that's trulyrestrictive.However, I'd take my 8ft 2 piece x 6/7 wt since where I fish in NorthAmerica the fish are almost as big as the lies told about them afterwards.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: If you had to take only one First, I'd find out who made such a dumb rule and show him/her why wegrowsuchbigcottonwoods out west. Then I'd take my Mike Clark 8' 5wt. 3/2 and gofishing.Jack Dale Don & Sandy Andersen wrote: Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 18 14:11:57 1999 Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:11:51 -0700 Subject: Re: 60* point --------------80223D9B4A9FF1ECF4F91678 Is Jon still in business? Haven't heard much from him lately. Harry Darrell Lee wrote: Jon L. has them on his site too... the Starrettpoint... http://www.munrorodco.com No interest, blah,blah... Regards, Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com --------------80223D9B4A9FF1ECF4F91678 Darrell Lee wrote: L. has them on his site too... the Starrett --------------80223D9B4A9FF1ECF4F91678-- from anglport@con2.com Mon Oct 18 14:26:13 1999 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long and short,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of line youneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Oct 18 14:41:49 1999 sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) Subject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to the best 25rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of line youneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from LambersonW@missouri.edu Mon Oct 18 14:55:56 1999 (5.5.2448.0) anglport@con2.com,caneman@clnk.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: 25 best tapers The list of best tapers, along with the names of individuals thatnominatedthem as best I could find, appears below. Bill Lamberson Young Driggs Tony Young Dell CoppockYoung Para 15 Tony Young Tom SmithwickYoung Midge Tony Young Davy RiggsYoung Perfectionist Carsten JorgensenSir D Tony Young Steve TrauthweinGarrison l93 AlexGarrison 212E Tom Smithwick John ZimnyGarrison 221Garrison 201E Rob HoffhinesLeonard 50 Rob HoffhinesLeonard 38H 7' #4 AnonymousLeonard model 50 1/2, 8 1/2ft 3pc 5wghtPayne 98 Rob HoffhinesPayne 200 Rob Hoffhines Max SatohGranger Special Steve ( from Tom Maxwell)Cross Bataviakill Davy RiggsCross Sylph Dell CoppockF. E. Thomas Browntone Light Trout Davy RiggsFE Thomas 71/2 4wt Rob HoffhinesOrvis Flea AnonymousHardy C. C. deFrance or Tarantino Davy RiggsKretchman 6' 6" #3 Reed CurryHeddon 9' 2 * F 3 pc # 7/8 Don BurnsFarlow made Norm Thompson 6' 2 *" 2 pc # 4/5 Don BurnsDawn Holbrook 8.5' tapers for a #7 or #8 lines Rob NielsenThramer 6' 472Dx Chris McDowellA.J. Thamer's 8' Dx John ChannerWinston Little FellerWinston 8' #7 Dell CoppockDickerson 8013 John Channer Bill Lamberson Hardy Perfection Carsten JorgensenMerritt Hawes 9ft 3pc 6wght Alan GrombacherMike Clark 8ft 2pc 6wght Alan GrombacherJohn Zimny Model 98 7 ft quad Bill Fink Reed CurryP&M Ritz Parabolic PPP Colorado 7'7" #5 Morten LovstadChris Bogart's Shenandoah Supreme #4 Max Satoh -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to thebest 25 rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of line youneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 18 15:13:12 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:12:42 +0800 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to thebest 25 rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... I'd like to see the final list if there was one... Tony At 12:39 PM 10/18/99 -0700, Darrell Lee wrote:It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Art Port rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:33 PMSubject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of lineyouneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Mon Oct 18 16:17:45 1999 Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:17:30 -0700 anglport@con2.com,caneman@clnk.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: 25 best tapers Wow,This reminds me of some names of contributors we haven't heard fromin quitea while. At least one of whom has some of my money! Well, actually heHAD someof my money. I suspect it's long gone by now. Harry "Lamberson, William R." wrote: The list of best tapers, along with the names of individuals thatnominatedthem as best I could find, appears below. Bill Lamberson Young Driggs Tony Young Dell CoppockYoung Para 15 Tony Young Tom SmithwickYoung Midge Tony Young Davy RiggsYoung Perfectionist Carsten JorgensenSir D Tony Young Steve TrauthweinGarrison l93 AlexGarrison 212E Tom Smithwick John ZimnyGarrison 221Garrison 201E Rob HoffhinesLeonard 50 Rob HoffhinesLeonard 38H 7' #4 AnonymousLeonard model 50 1/2, 8 1/2ft 3pc 5wghtPayne 98 Rob HoffhinesPayne 200 Rob Hoffhines Max SatohGranger Special Steve ( from Tom Maxwell)Cross Bataviakill Davy RiggsCross Sylph Dell CoppockF. E. Thomas Browntone Light Trout Davy RiggsFE Thomas 71/2 4wt Rob HoffhinesOrvis Flea AnonymousHardy C. C. deFrance or Tarantino Davy RiggsKretchman 6' 6" #3 Reed CurryHeddon 9' 2 * F 3 pc # 7/8 Don BurnsFarlow made Norm Thompson 6' 2 *" 2 pc # 4/5 Don BurnsDawn Holbrook 8.5' tapers for a #7 or #8 lines Rob NielsenThramer 6' 472Dx Chris McDowellA.J. Thamer's 8' Dx John ChannerWinston Little FellerWinston 8' #7 Dell CoppockDickerson 8013 John Channer Bill LambersonHardy Perfection Carsten JorgensenMerritt Hawes 9ft 3pc 6wght Alan GrombacherMike Clark 8ft 2pc 6wght Alan GrombacherJohn Zimny Model 98 7 ft quad Bill Fink Reed CurryP&M Ritz Parabolic PPP Colorado 7'7" #5 Morten LovstadChris Bogart's Shenandoah Supreme #4 Max Satoh -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to thebest 25 rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Art Port rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:33 PMSubject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of lineyouneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from dellc@nextdim.com Mon Oct 18 16:27:42 1999 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one I will second that choice don. You gave me one of your tapers 10 or 12yearsago at Corbett Lake. With a little tweaking it will make a very good 4 wt.too.DellDell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the Quilterhttp://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail dellc@nextdim.comflyfisher@nextdim.com----- Original Message ----- Subject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and riversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Oct 18 16:54:41 1999 +0200 Subject: Sv: 25 best tapers - from pmgoodwin@earthlink.net Mon Oct 18 17:40:21 1999 PAA27233; ,, Subject: Re: 25 best tapers Hmmmm, I don't see the Bs*tard Taper on the list. ----- Original Message ----- ; Subject: 25 best tapers The list of best tapers, along with the names of individuals thatnominatedthem as best I could find, appears below. Bill Lamberson Young Driggs Tony Young Dell CoppockYoung Para 15 Tony Young Tom SmithwickYoung Midge Tony Young Davy RiggsYoung Perfectionist Carsten JorgensenSir D Tony Young Steve TrauthweinGarrison l93 AlexGarrison 212E Tom Smithwick John ZimnyGarrison 221Garrison 201E Rob HoffhinesLeonard 50 Rob HoffhinesLeonard 38H 7' #4 AnonymousLeonard model 50 1/2, 8 1/2ft 3pc 5wghtPayne 98 Rob HoffhinesPayne 200 Rob Hoffhines Max SatohGranger Special Steve ( from Tom Maxwell)Cross Bataviakill Davy RiggsCross Sylph Dell CoppockF. E. Thomas Browntone Light Trout Davy RiggsFE Thomas 71/2 4wt Rob HoffhinesOrvis Flea AnonymousHardy C. C. deFrance or Tarantino Davy RiggsKretchman 6' 6" #3 Reed CurryHeddon 9' 2 * F 3 pc # 7/8 Don BurnsFarlow made Norm Thompson 6' 2 *" 2 pc # 4/5 Don BurnsDawn Holbrook 8.5' tapers for a #7 or #8 lines Rob NielsenThramer 6' 472Dx Chris McDowellA.J. Thamer's 8' Dx John ChannerWinston Little FellerWinston 8' #7 Dell CoppockDickerson 8013 John Channer Bill LambersonHardy Perfection Carsten JorgensenMerritt Hawes 9ft 3pc 6wght Alan GrombacherMike Clark 8ft 2pc 6wght Alan GrombacherJohn Zimny Model 98 7 ft quad Bill Fink Reed CurryP&M Ritz Parabolic PPP Colorado 7'7" #5 Morten LovstadChris Bogart's Shenandoah Supreme #4 Max Satoh -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to thebest 25 rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Art Port rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:33 PMSubject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makesagreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of lineyouneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams andriversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don from gwbarnes@gwi.net Mon Oct 18 17:50:09 1999 Subject: (no subject) Does anyone have John Zimney's current e-mail address? I'd appreciateit. George Barnes from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Mon Oct 18 18:04:03 1999 VirusWall NT);Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:02:25 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Taper question Hi I am thinking about building this Rod as my first Rod I got the taper from George Mauerers book andI was wondering where the tip section and but section are split? Do I count the stations from the first 5" and than divide by 2? i.e 18stations from 5 to 90 / 2 would be 9 somy split would be 0 to 45 for tip and 50 to 90 for Butt? Rod Size: 7' 6" (Payne 100. Measurements were taken from an unvarnished rod. This is agoodrodtaper for the novice rod maker.) Line Weight: 4 Interval Rod * Rod (Tip = 0 ) Diameter Diameter 0 .064 .032 5 .070 .035 10 .086 .043 15 .101 .050 20 .116 .058 25 .131 .065 30 .143 .071 35 .155 .077 40 .167 .083 45 .180 .090 50 .191 .095 55 .203 .101 60 .218 .109 65 .231 .115 70 .244 .122 75 .268 .134 80 .300 .150 85 .300 .150 90 .300 .150 Thanks,Kirk D Brownlee from rmoon@ida.net Mon Oct 18 18:57:35 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Taper question KirkBoth sections would be equal. Your method will leave you with a rodonly84". The ferrule point will fall at 45"Ralph from caneman@clnk.com Mon Oct 18 19:07:11 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: contact point hmmmmm... once upon a time I had a 60 deg contact point from Enco... onlyproblem is it was closer to 58 deg or so. I ditched it and went withstarrett!Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: contact point John,I tried to purchase a 60 deg. point from ENCO but customer service couldnever produce a part number. DoAll Tools have 60 deg. contact points.Partnumber 608-101190. Price (1997) was $4.10. If there is not a DoAll storeinyour area, the Seattle phone number is 206-623-1191.Bill----- Original Message -----From: John Collier Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 9:47 AMSubject: contact point Does anyone know the product number for a 60 degree tip from ENCO? Also,Iwould like to know the best method for making final metal planingforms(primarily the taper). Thanks for your help! John from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Oct 18 19:14:12 1999 0000 (209.176.193.203) , Subject: Directions....Guidance...Dry Flies : ) Harry -Miles and I WILL be there (the SRG) but to save face in case of anymidpoint navigational corrections we are not revealing our time ofarrivial.Looking forward to a great time - RIGHT - dry fly fishing - ha ha ha -THIS - I will have to see first hand - perhaps there should be a HostessTwinkie at stake here to spice the chilli of life or some such matterAnd If you even think that I won't be captured on film - lest it be usedas poster child material - think again - Wayne from Fishnabug@aol.com Mon Oct 18 20:45:32 1999 Subject: Taper for a 9' # 3 or 4 two piece D.The one I'm looking at is a 9' #3. It look farily light and further comments state that one can easily fish this rod all day without tiring.Any suggestions?David from channer@hubwest.com Mon Oct 18 21:16:22 1999 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one At 06:29 AM 10/18/1999 -0600, Don & Sandy Andersen wrote:Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams and rivers inNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don Don;I'm real fond of my Perfectionist(7'6" 4 wt.),I use it on the San Juan andsmall mountains streams.It can do short casts/small fish and longcasts/bigfish just as well.John from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Oct 18 21:27:11 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finally looked at hisweb site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quit worrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him and what he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret from Fishnabug@aol.com Mon Oct 18 21:57:31 1999 Subject: Taper for an Orvis "Flea"? Does any one ot there have a taper on an Orvis "Flea" that you may pass on?David M from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Oct 18 23:55:57 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:55:11 +0800 Subject: Re: 25 best tapers "'darrell@rockclimbing.org'" ,anglport@con2.com, caneman@clnk.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu That was a very strange event and completely unexpected too. The moneything that is. Tony At 04:19 PM 10/18/99 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Wow,This reminds me of some names of contributors we haven't heard frominquitea while. At least one of whom has some of my money! Well, actually heHAD someof my money. I suspect it's long gone by now. Harry "Lamberson, William R." wrote: The list of best tapers, along with the names of individuals thatnominatedthem as best I could find, appears below. Bill Lamberson Young Driggs Tony Young Dell CoppockYoung Para 15 Tony Young Tom SmithwickYoung Midge Tony Young Davy Riggs>> Young Perfectionist Carsten JorgensenSir D Tony Young Steve TrauthweinGarrison l93 AlexGarrison 212E Tom Smithwick John ZimnyGarrison 221Garrison 201E Rob HoffhinesLeonard 50 Rob HoffhinesLeonard 38H 7' #4 AnonymousLeonard model 50 1/2, 8 1/2ft 3pc 5wghtPayne 98 Rob HoffhinesPayne 200 Rob Hoffhines Max SatohGranger Special Steve ( from Tom Maxwell)Cross Bataviakill Davy RiggsCross Sylph Dell CoppockF. E. Thomas Browntone Light Trout Davy RiggsFE Thomas 71/2 4wt Rob HoffhinesOrvis Flea AnonymousHardy C. C. deFrance or Tarantino Davy RiggsKretchman 6' 6" #3 Reed CurryHeddon 9' 2 * F 3 pc # 7/8 Don BurnsFarlow made Norm Thompson 6' 2 *" 2 pc # 4/5 Don BurnsDawn Holbrook 8.5' tapers for a #7 or #8 lines Rob NielsenThramer 6' 472Dx Chris McDowellA.J. Thamer's 8' Dx John ChannerWinston Little FellerWinston 8' #7 Dell CoppockDickerson 8013 John Channer Bill LambersonHardy Perfection Carsten JorgensenMerritt Hawes 9ft 3pc 6wght Alan GrombacherMike Clark 8ft 2pc 6wght Alan GrombacherJohn Zimny Model 98 7 ft quad Bill Fink Reed CurryP&M Ritz Parabolic PPP Colorado 7'7" #5 Morten LovstadChris Bogart's Shenandoah Supreme #4 Max Satoh -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 2:40 PM rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: If you had to take only one... Whatever happened to thebest 25 rods... I don't recall a final list being tabulated... It's been awhile since the best 25... If I missed the final list, I'd surelike someone to send it again... Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com -----Original Message-----From: Art Port rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 12:33 PMSubject: Re: If you had to take only one All,Sounds kinda like we're back to "The 25 Best-in-the-worlds" again!Makes agreat starting place for the newbies and gives those of us who areobsessive/compulsive builders a new place to start...Art At 08:54 AM 10/18/1999 -0500, Bob Nunley wrote:Well, sounds kinda self centered, but I would have to go with the rod Ifishall the time. It is a 7'6" 5 weight of my design. It casts long andshort,delicate or strong, depending on the situation and the amount of lineyouneed to cast... and yes, it is of a parabolic nature. Bob -----Original Message-----From: Don & Sandy Andersen Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 7:34 AMSubject: If you had to take only one Guys/Gals. If you had only one rod to fish all the fresh water streams andriversinNorth America, what rod taper and line weight would it be? My vote is for a 7'9">8' rod in a 5 wt. with a mild para taper. What do you think? Don /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from utzerath@execpc.com Tue Oct 19 06:26:15 1999 Subject: Improving accuracy Can anyone give a beginner some direction? I have completed my first =blanks, and I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips in =relation to the form depth. What do you think are the most important things to do to improve? I did a nodeless blank that tended to finish oversize a few mil; but =another conventional blank tended be undersize. I am using maple forms, =leaving the enamel on, otherwise going by the Book. Thanks in advance; gotta split. P.S. I designed an interesting vertical "lathe" attachment for a floor =model drill press that I built for about $150. Anyone interested in a =print? Can anyone give a beginner some = I have completed my first blanks, and I am not very satisfied with the = of the strips in relation to the form depth. What do you think are the most = to do to improve? I did a nodeless blank that tended= oversize a few mil; but another conventional blank tended be = Book. Thanks in advance; gotta =split. interesting = "lathe" attachment for a floor model drill press that I built = print? from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 07:49:37 1999 1999 05:53:48 PDT Subject: muddy waters or cherry wine? greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from brookie@frii.com Tue Oct 19 08:27:51 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat At 10:26 PM 10/18/1999 EDT, you wrote:Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finally looked at his web site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quitworrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him and what he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret mmmm, sounds like someone here might under the age of 30.either that or ? come on now, these listservs are for just abouteveryone, if you start deciding who can and cannot be 'on'them, who you should keep and not keep, what's the point ofthe forum ? remember, everyone, at all ends of the spectrum provide everyoneelse with a benchmark, something to gauge against (pun intended,*S*). You gotta have the extremes. If nothing else it lets themiddle grounders know where they stand. no offense meant here, but if you're going to suggest the RodMakersnot KEEP George (who i don't know from Adam), then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now....suecoloradonorthern tier-annist from JAQFOLL@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 19 08:36:00 1999 mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:35:27 +0000 Subject: Re: contact point Mitutoyo 60* points #101190 can be ordered from MSC, 100 MSC Drive,Jonestown, PA 17038. The only catch is that you order $25 worth and @$4.10ea. that would be 7. They are very good steel, stay sharp, and worth theprice. Jack from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 19 09:07:06 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:06:49 +0800 Subject: Re: Georgechat Sue, I don't think George the person is actually ON the list, just the GG thesubject.A lot of good bandwidth has been used on GG the subject and it all came tonaught in the end because for all GG's crowing the result was/issomethingless than worth speaking of let alone the wear and tear on anybody'skeyboard. Agreed the extremists are needed because somewhere in between is thetruepath but old GG's comments seem to be intentionally flammable. If GGwantedto join, great but there are now rules of engagement that are in place asmuch for the lists' survival as the individuals' enjoyment and input. Tony At 07:24 AM 10/19/99 -0600, Sue K. wrote:At 10:26 PM 10/18/1999 EDT, you wrote:Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finally looked at his web site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quitworrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him and what he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret mmmm, sounds like someone here might under the age of 30.either that or ? come on now, these listservs are for just abouteveryone, if you start deciding who can and cannot be 'on'them, who you should keep and not keep, what's the point ofthe forum ? remember, everyone, at all ends of the spectrum provide everyoneelse with a benchmark, something to gauge against (pun intended,*S*). You gotta have the extremes. If nothing else it lets themiddle grounders know where they stand. no offense meant here, but if you're going to suggest the RodMakersnot KEEP George (who i don't know from Adam), then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now....suecoloradonorthern tier-annist /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from noblur@stic.net Tue Oct 19 09:19:06 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the state stocks =in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut crammed =shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the =river bank with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53 AM greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not all "Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the = stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut = shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the = with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- troester 'akers Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry= twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes = dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has = a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery = = actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no = use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other = we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning = = morning = bear"__________________________________________________Do Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from brookie@frii.com Tue Oct 19 09:19:25 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat tony said : Sue, I don't think George the person is actually ON the list, just the GG the subject. A lot of good bandwidth has been used on GG the subject and it all came to naught in the end because worth speaking of let alone the wear and tear on anybody'skeyboard. well there ya have it, insert foot into mouth (not easy at my age)and get yourself into hot water again *VVVBG*. that IS the problem when you read posts out of context, and youall know how easy it is to spot-read and not follow the entirethread. to the person I snapped at (name escapes), apologies sir ... Agreed the extremists are needed because somewhere in between is the true path but old GG's comments seem to be intentionally flammable. If GG wanted to join, great but there are now rules ofengagement that are in place as much for the lists' survival as the individuals' enjoyment and input. Agree. I am on a couple other listservs and there are unwritten rulesthat keep the listserv happy, well fed and continuing. Trust thisone is one ; as a newbie over last year, it appears the volume of traffichas increased, and the banter is thoroughly engaging. I might add, on a happy note that I rec'd word last night from a canebuilding friend in another state, the he DID get offered a job inColorado, close to where I live, and he and wife will be moving upyet this calendar year. You know what this means ? *VVBG* I shallsomeday in the next year or so, cajole myself into apprenticeship. Atleast to build a one and only cane for myself ! *G*prepare yourselves RodMakers Listcolorado from gholland@navsys.com Tue Oct 19 09:24:58 1999 Subject: RE: Georgechat Sue, I think you misunderstood the suggestion......what the "GreenHighlander"wassuggesting is to quit talking about him, not ban him from posting to thelist. I'm fairly certain he's over 30. This is a great time to make areminder to not have "knee jerk" reactions and to carefully word ourposts...I get in trouble sometimes because I think I'm communicating whatIreally want to say and I don't. Written communication is a skill that veryfew people really excel at (including me) so lets be thoughtful when weright and ask questions when we think something sounds funny. I appreciate that this list is mostly about bamboo and other related funstuff; not flaming. Sincerely, Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Georgechat At 10:26 PM 10/18/1999 EDT, you wrote:Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finally looked at his web site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quitworrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him and what he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret mmmm, sounds like someone here might under the age of 30.either that or ? come on now, these listservs are for just abouteveryone, if you start deciding who can and cannot be 'on'them, who you should keep and not keep, what's the point ofthe forum ? remember, everyone, at all ends of the spectrum provide everyoneelse with a benchmark, something to gauge against (pun intended,*S*). You gotta have the extremes. If nothing else it lets themiddle grounders know where they stand. no offense meant here, but if you're going to suggest the RodMakersnot KEEP George (who i don't know from Adam), then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now....suecoloradonorthern tier-annist from gwbarnes@gwi.net Tue Oct 19 10:08:05 1999 Subject: (no subject) Thanks to everyone who sent John Z's address. My problem is I just can'tspell and the spell checker didn't know John. Had sent him pictures fromthe Harpswell Rodmakers Fiasco, which he attended, and they came back. George from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Oct 19 10:57:16 1999 0500 Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? F3D913D722F56443FA2D6FF7" --------------F3D913D722F56443FA2D6FF7 George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on atrout river and am sick of seeing dead gorgedtrout. The cans are in the river and they leavewith a ice chest full of trout. That leaves thelocal people to clean up. I had better get back toplaning, got three more strips to do.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial !Here, where the state stocks in the spring,we've picked up small dying trout, with theirgut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On topof that, these Klutz's litter the river bankwith empty, canned corn cans ! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend inillinois wasopening trout season. in illinois thestate imports'bows twice a year from missouri andplants them invarious lakes throughout the state.the object is tocatch the fish before they choke todeath on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. notonly can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but ihave a friendthan has developed a series of flypatterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fishfood. the bestof these are the pellet fly and thecorn kernel.actually i support thisprogram even tho'to me it seems to be no more thanexpensive groceries.catch and release is an issue thatseems to be forother states, the ones with troutstreams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle topromote catch andrelease for other species and we'verecently had somediscussion about fishing spawningbeds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"_________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free athttp://auctions.yahoo.com --------------F3D913D722F56443FA2D6FF7 George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and amsick of seeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leavewith a ice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up.I had better get back to planing, got three more strips to do. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitationsare artificial ! Here, where the state stocks in the spring, we've pickedup small dying trout, with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the river bank with empty, canned ----- Original Message ----- From:timothytroester 'akers Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53AM Subject: muddy waters or cherrywine? 'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them in catch the fish before they choke to death on the crud. tasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns that of these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel. actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries. able to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had some ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com --------------F3D913D722F56443FA2D6FF7-- from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 19 11:13:31 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:13:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Improving accuracy --------------0112EEC0E8B180981A301B8C Jim,Sounds like you need to be sure that your forms are set correctly,and your strips are measured accurately. It is VERY easy to crush theapex of a bamboo strip when measuring it. Doing so usually results inoversized rod sections.There are two solutions to inaccurate measurements that I am awareof:First, learn to measure more carefully. That's not easy. Use alight touch, and perhaps the very lightly set ratchet-clutch mechanismthingy on a good micrometer.Second, get an attachment for the jaws of your dial caliper whichallows the jaws to close without crushing the apex of the triangle. Theonly source I know of for such a gizmo is:John Long16231 Appleby LaneNorthville, MI 48167 Forms can be set very accurately using the drill rod methoddescribed on Chris Bogart's web page,http://www.shentel.net/canerod/ It can be a pain to figure the firsttime, but it is worthwhile. Once you have an accurate reading for yourdepth gauge, you then use it to set the other stations.Don't let this little problem set you back too far. Most of us havesimilar problems from time to time. Solving problems is one thing thatkeeps rodmaking interesting. Harry Boyd Jim Utzerath wrote: Can anyone give a beginner some direction? I have completed my firstblanks, and I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips inrelation to the form depth. What do you think are the most importantthings to do to improve? I did a nodeless blank that tended to finishoversize a few mil; but another conventional blank tended beundersize. I am using maple forms, leaving the enamel on, otherwisegoing by the Book. Thanks in advance; gotta split. P.S. I designed aninteresting vertical "lathe" attachment for a floor model drill pressthat I built for about $150. Anyone interested in a print? --------------0112EEC0E8B180981A301B8C Jim, Doing so usually results in oversized rod sections. measurementsthat I am aware of: That's clutchmechanism thingy on a good micrometer. dialcaliper which allows the jaws to close without crushing the apex of the Once you have an accurate reading for your depth gauge, you then use itto set the other stations. problemsis one thing that keeps rodmaking interesting. Jim Utzerath wrote: anyone and I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips in relation do you think are the most important things to do to did a nodeless blank that tended to finish oversize a few mil; but another leaving I designed an interesting vertical "lathe" attachment for a floor model print? --------------0112EEC0E8B180981A301B8C-- from noblur@stic.net Tue Oct 19 11:14:39 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:14:33 -0500 Subject: Fw: muddy waters or cherry wine? Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? I happened to luck out, and found a wife who loves to fish, although she =doesn't care much for fly type. Still, she fills a garbage bag on each =of our trips, as we sure don't like to have this crap on such a pretty =setting. I even pick up every shot gun shell, on my dove lease. When a =kid, we had 15 thousand acres, plus, we could hunt and fish on, without =having to ask permission. You could never tell we had been there, when =we left ! That never goes away ! GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 10:55 AMSubject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am =sick of seeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they =leave with a ice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to =clean up. I had better get back to planing, got three more strips to do. = At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the state =stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut =crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter = ----- Original Message -----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53 AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry wine? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From:George M. =Aldrich Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:13 AMSubject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? I happened to luck out, and found a wife who loves to fish, = although she doesn't care much for fly type. Still, she fills a garbage = each of our trips, as we sure don't like to have this crap on such a = setting. I even pick up every shot gun shell, on my dove lease. When a = had 15 thousand acres, plus, we could hunt and fish on, without having = permission. You could never tell we had been there, when we left ! That = goes away ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- Spezio 'akers Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= AMSubject: Re: muddy waters or = wine?George, You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live = trout river and am sick of seeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in = and they leave with a ice chest full of trout. That leaves the local = clean up. I had better get back to planing, got three more strips to = At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the state = in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut = shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the = ----- Original Message ----- troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, = AMSubject: muddy waters or = 'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them in = have a friend than has developed a series of fly patterns that = = actually i support this program even tho' to me it seems to be = seems to be for other states, the ones with trout = been able to use this as a vehicle to promote catch and = __________________________________________________Do You = from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Tue Oct 19 11:22:07 1999 VirusWall NT);Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:20:20 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: muddy waters or cherry wine? understandthis format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Here in the west corn is considered chumming and is very illegal is thisnotthe case in Illinois? And I would not think that hatcheries would use corn either being that a fishwill gorge itself to death on it. Now pellet food I can see. I had a friend who new the hatchery truckschedule and had a fly tied out ofspun deer hair cut down to look like one of these pellets, he would pick upgravel and through it over thewater and the plunking sound of the gravel would attract the fish thinkingit was pellets and he would cast his pellet fly out and knock them dead. I did not say he was a good friend! Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? George, You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am sick ofseeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with aice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I hadbetter get back to planing, got three more strips to do. Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the state stocks inthe spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut crammed shutwith kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the river bankwith empty, canned corn cans ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- Subject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend in illinois was opening trout season. in illinois the state imports 'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them in various lakes throughout the state. the object is to catch the fish before they choke to death on the crud. rod builders are amazing people. not only can we do tasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friend than has developed a series of fly patterns that imitate various types of hatchery fish food. the best of these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel. actually i support this program even tho' to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries. catch and release is an issue that seems to be for other states, the ones with trout streams. we've been able to use this as a vehicle to promote catch and release for other species and we've recently had some discussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not all muddy waters in illinois. timothy ===== "Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com Here in the west corn is considered chumming and is very illegal is this not thecase I would not think that hatcheries would use corn either being that a fishwill gorge itself to death on it. Now schedule and had a fly tied out ofspun gravel and through it over thewater it was pellets and he would cast his pellet fly out and knock them dead. I did not say he was a good friend! Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com or Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Message-----From: Tony Spezio 1999 9:55 cherry wine?George, You just rubbed a sore spot with me. Ilive on a trout river and am sick of seeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with a ice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I had better get back to planing, got three more stripsto George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the statestocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the river ----- Original Message -----From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 19997:53 AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry illinois 'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them in variouslakes but i have a friend than has developed a series of fly patterns that these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel. actually i support this program even tho' to me it seems to be nomore we've been able to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease fishing ===== "Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from eestlow@srminc.com Tue Oct 19 11:25:36 1999 Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? 1999) at 10/19/9911:19:46 AM the fish out with worms, spinners, and multiple rod setups and leave theirtrash - cans, styrofoam, light bulbs(!?!) - for us visitors to clean up andpack out. To boot, they post to keep visitors out. Talk about messing one'sown nest.... Best,-Ed Tony Spezio cc:Sent by: Subject: Re: muddy waters orcherry wine? owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu 10/19/99 10:55 AMPlease respond toflytyr George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am sick ofseeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with aice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I hadbetter get back to planing, got three more strips to do.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial ! Here,where the state stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout,with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, theseKlutz's litter the river bank with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA----- Original Message ----- Subject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 19 11:57:23 1999 Subject: Node question Friends,After having built a few rods, I have finally figured out that oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building is that not every nodelooks identical in the finished rod. Some are darker, some lighter.Some even have a little enamel at the corners. I can deal with thoseproblems through taking a little more care in filing the nodes beforeflaming.One thing that becomes evident on really looking at the nodes isthat even after flattening and straightening with heat, the surface ofthe enamel just before and just after some nodes is irregularly shaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I could show you in just a fewseconds. Just above and below the node, there seems to be morecurvature to the enamel side of the strip, from side to side, not fromtip to butt. This ascii picture might help | || | from FISHWOOL@aol.com Tue Oct 19 12:24:17 1999 Subject: Re: If you had to take only one I, too, have used a 7 1/2' for a wf5f line all over this country for the last 6 years. It is a straight taper that I made 7 years ago and works fine in close and far out, on small mountain streams and big rivers like the Yellowstone.Regards,Hank W. from rmoon@ida.net Tue Oct 19 12:24:22 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Node question HarryAre you pressing the nodes? It might helpRalph from rperry@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Oct 19 13:01:38 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Sue K. wrote: SNIP then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now.... Ok, you twisted my arm... I second the motion And will also like to nominate the other extreeeemist, Shimmerboo, forlifetime Rodmaker membership. Ouch..ooch..yikes... getting whipped with an old Constable really smarts.. ok sis, I'm sorry, please don't whack my noggin again. Regards, Bob from jkcerise@rof.net Tue Oct 19 13:18:29 1999 Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? I don't know how you put up with those types. out here in CO, we'd use 'em I fished in WV and I found the scenery to be unbearable, what with allthelitter and especially the milk jugs found on all the lakes. What the hellis wrong with these people? And then people wonder why us native Coloradans hate to see some of theeasterners move out here!!! God, some of them take a lot of retraining.We have found it's best if we usually start with a lobotomy and workinward from there. Now if 'that' doesn't generate some mail!!! Really, we are so very lucky here in the West, we do need to appreciate itmore that almost all of the folks here who use the public lands respectthem and leave them in good shape. We work hard at the education of ourhunters and fishers and peer pressure helps a lot here. I have seen (Froma really close view!!! LOL) landowners literally chase down a guy whotossed a beer can out of a vehicle on a county road and reminded him thathe ought to go back a couple miles and pick it up!! The guy was happy todo so too, I might add! Keep fighting the good fight, it is appreciated by all real sportsmen andwomen!! Thanks from the West. John At 04:33 PM 10/19/99 GMT, you wrote: the fish out with worms, spinners, and multiple rod setups and leavetheirtrash - cans, styrofoam, light bulbs(!?!) - for us visitors to clean up andpack out. To boot, they post to keep visitors out. Talk about messing one'sown nest.... Best,-Ed Tony Spezio cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: muddywaters or cherry wine? owner-rodmakers@wugate .wustl.edu 10/19/99 10:55 AM Please respond to flytyr George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am sick ofseeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with aice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I hadbetter get back to planing, got three more strips to do.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial ! Here,where the state stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout,with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, theseKlutz's litter the river bank with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA----- Original Message ----- From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53 AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com With a View from the Western Side of Things Kid Cerise from canebuilder@webtv.net Tue Oct 19 13:33:20 1999 137.iap.bryant.webtv.net 137.iap.bryant.webtv.net(8.8.8-wtv-d/mt.gso.26Feb98) id LAA23417; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:33:16 - ETAtAhQegQh3nBp4tNH1zam6rVu1mcTeogIVAKIbcvsYDkeYsfDsCYpKLrIa4bxO Subject: Orvis serial numbers Has anyone ever seen a listing of Orvis serial numbers by year. I havelooked everywhere that I can think of, with no sucess. Thanks, cane builder from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Oct 19 14:21:57 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:21:44 -0700 Subject: Re: Node question Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let's saythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest of thestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in the centerand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Ralph W Moon wrote: HarryAre you pressing the nodes? It might helpRalph from rmoon@ida.net Tue Oct 19 15:40:56 1999 0000 Subject: Re: Node question 76108C279BEBA4EBC5557AFF" --------------76108C279BEBA4EBC5557AFF I know what you are saying and I have run into it as well, but I didn'tworry to much about it. The length of the node removal area, seems lessimportant to me than the removal of too much material resulting in adepression at the node. Realizing that the removal of material from theenamel side of the cane is a judgmental action, you may have to acceptthe fact that not all Tonkin is suitable for rod making, and if you havea culm with excessive "distortion below and above the node, you may haveto bite the bullet and reject the cane. If however, you can level thenode area and not leave any discernible depression by doing so, I don'tthink you should feel bad even though the nodes are not all identical. I guess it really boils down to how picky you want to be. I cancertainly show you some "historic" rods that would have you screaming.I guess Harry that within your own standards, you need to determine howclose to perfect you want to be. I am sorry that I can't come up with asolution. Also sorry to question your technique by reading only what Iwanted to see. You did say that you flattened the nodes. ( Sue wasjust railing against such as I who read and don't comprehend )Ralph --------------76108C279BEBA4EBC5557AFF seems less important to me than the removal of too much materialresultingin a depression at the node. Realizing that the removal of material fromthe enamel side of the cane is a judgmental action, you may have to acceptthe fact that not all Tonkin is suitable for rod making, and if you havea culm with excessive "distortion below and above the node, you may have the node area and not leave any discernible depression by doing so, I don't certainly show you some "historic" rods that would have you I guess Harry that within your own standards, you need to determine how don't comprehend )Ralph --------------76108C279BEBA4EBC5557AFF-- from chris@artistree.com Tue Oct 19 16:05:59 1999 Subject: Muddy waters or cherry wine? All this talk of garbage and general lack of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience I hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in the mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the mood hitme. After much searching and inquiries with the local DFG, I was ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millions ofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream, roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in the earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and moved south to Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate these hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finally started to do. Thetraffic was picking up on the road that follows the stream. I knewthere would be family outings at the pullouts upstream and downstream from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the least amountof access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this section aswell. At first it was subtle enough with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came the flood. Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but was thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all afternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. The laststraw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoor fornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them. Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash and a look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless to say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes think they'veadopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fish Icatch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Tue Oct 19 16:12:49 1999 14:18:04 PDT Subject: RE: Orvis serial numbers Cane, I've not found anything on the web, but I've called the Orvis rod shop and was able to get the date of completion based on the serial number of the rod I had. I no longer have the phone number I called, but you should be able to get help if you can contact the Orvis company. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from RMargiotta@aol.com Tue Oct 19 16:27:53 1999 Subject: Orvis Serial Numbers I have started to compile a list (see below). It is very incomplete, but if you plot the numbers you can get a rough idea of the year. It really needs some post-1980 observations as well as some very low serial numbers. But it's a start. --Rich 1964 349711945 11831957 233261960 330231956 2035211/27/56 1956 204661957 232717/12/76 1976 790501970 606271966 388921975 763111952 123802/21/52 1952 126152/18/54 1954 154761959 296101978 814441950 87351968 506401948 8394May-58 1958 247007/11/55 1955 175841948 67841956 193781995 885391961 311129/9/65 1965 411661970 592591947 487412/10/65 1965 42092 from noblur@stic.net Tue Oct 19 17:25:07 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Node question This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning form, or a =fixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I have never made a rod, =but am seriously gathering data about doing so. I have been under the =impression that the nodes were worked down, before splitting to a piece =that was ready for planning. GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:58 AMSubject: Node question Friends,After having built a few rods, I have finally figured out that oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building is that not every nodelooks identical in the finished rod. Some are darker, some lighter.Some even have a little enamel at the corners. I can deal with thoseproblems through taking a little more care in filing the nodes beforeflaming.One thing that becomes evident on really looking at the nodes isthat even after flattening and straightening with heat, the surface ofthe enamel just before and just after some nodes is irregularly =shaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I could show you in just a fewseconds. Just above and below the node, there seems to be morecurvature to the enamel side of the strip, from side to side, not fromtip to butt. This ascii picture might help | || | This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning = fixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I have never made a rod, = seriously gathering data about doing so. I have been under the = the nodes were worked down, before splitting to a piece that was ready = planning. GMA ----- Original Message ----- Harry = = Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= AMSubject: Node question = have finally figured out that oneof the trouble spots in the rods = building is that not every nodelooks identical in the finished = Some are darker, some lighter.Some even have a little enamel at = care in filing the nodes = One thing that becomes evident on really looking at the nodes = after flattening and straightening with heat, the surface ofthe = just before and just after some nodes is irregularly shaped.This = to describe in words, but I could show you in just a = Just above and below the node, there seems to be morecurvature to = enamel side of the strip, from side to side, not fromtip to = straight, or flat, but inorder to get the bamboo level from side = I seem to have to sandaway quite a bit of the power fibers at the = makes the node looknot one inch long, but more like one and = to reject those strips, but I can't see the problem until I getall = through the process to the point of removing enamel justbefore = Harry from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Oct 19 17:56:14 1999 Subject: Re: Node question Hi Harry,Here's an idea to help you with the node problem. It's one common to us all.If a node has a dip in the cane on one side or both sides of the node trytry this. Heat the area ( from the pith side) on the side of the node wherethe dip occurs. Then press (upwards) the bow out of that area even if thistends to slightly bow the whole strip. Then file press and file the nodearea flat and finally straighten the whole strip. If the culm isparticularly flagrant in having big dips beside the nodes you might be bestoff using well staggered spiral node positions when gluing up the rod.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Node question Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let's saythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest of thestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Ralph W Moon wrote: HarryAre you pressing the nodes? It might helpRalph from smartorelli@infovia.com.ar Tue Oct 19 18:49:29 1999 #940375509.079010003;Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:25:09 -0300 "Tony Young" ,"Gustavo Yivoff" ,"Steven Weiss" ,"ListBot Verifier" ,"valerio" ,"Alberto Jose Usman" ,, "Tito" ,"leroy teeple" ,"=?iso-8859- 1?Q?Mat=EDas_A._Sulpis?=","Frank Stetzer" ,"Seth Steinzor" ,"Tony Spezio" ,=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ra=FAl_Sommariva?= ,"Jerry Snider" ,"Shuey, Ralph" ,=?iso-8859-1?Q?Angler=B4s_Aventuras_Fly_Shop?=,"michael w. shaffer" ,Subject: RV: Microsoft ----- Mensaje original -----De: jorge martorelli Para: sergio martorelli Enviado: Martes, 19 de Octubre de 1999 06:41 p.m. ----- Mensaje original -----De: pensa Para: Enviado: Martes, 19 de Octubre de 1999 08:28 a.m. -----Mensaje original-----De: martorelliEnviado el: Martes 19 de Octubre de 1999 7:09 AMPara: pensa Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original-----De: giacomozziEnviado el: Lunes 18 de Octubre de 1999 15:26Para: messi; martorelli; pensa; herrera Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original-----De: palermoEnviado el: viernes 15 de octubre de 1999 19:31Para: canterino; delgado; giacomozzi; leonardo; mgarcia; oldano;pfeifer; spatula; urlandiCC: mantovani; zapata; tolosa; gutierrez; jsuarez Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original-----De: sanzEnviado el: Viernes 15 de Octubre de 1999 6:07 PMPara: rizzolo; fanucci; temperini; signorelli; yzaguirre; gamulin;aguirre; saldutti; perez; gonzalez; palermo; nistal; zelaya; mdevicCC: BRUMATTI (Correo electrõnico); BRUMATTI (Correo electrõnico 2);CARGILL (Correo electrõnico); DONA (Correo electrõnico); Gabriel(Correo electrõnico); GERMAN (Correo electrõnico); MARIANO RICOVELLI(Correo electrõnico) Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original----- Enviado el: Viernes 15 de Octubre de 1999 3:38 PM Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original-----De: Pinelli LucianoEnviado el: Viernes 15 de Octubre de 1999 4:15 PM Importancia: Alta -----Mensaje original-----De: Inter - Consum S.R.L.Enviado el: Viernes 15 de Octubre de 1999 4:07 PMPara: Enrique Toya e Hijos SA; GLENCORE (Pergamino) FranciscoVernengo; Ignacio Valvasoni; Laurita Font (Babette); Nari CerealesS.R.L.; Sergio Fratocchi; Soc.Gremial de Acopiadores; Vania Gauli;WEIHMULLER Y CIA.S.C.C.; AAPRESID; AAPRESID (Ambrogio M.);AAPRESID(Celina T.); AAPRESID (Geary H.); AAPRESID (Lorenzatti); AAPRESID(Natalia); AAPRESID (Nerina); AAPRESID (V. 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Importancia: Alta ----- Mensaje original -----[Creo que con hacer la prueba no perdemos nada... Les enviamos copia de un e-mail que recibimos de un amigodeUshuaia.Se los transcribimos textualmente: ALIANZA ENTRE MICROSOFT Y AOL ( AMERICAN ON LINE )Estamos enviando esto, porque la persona que me lo envioesunbuen amigo y no me esta jugando una broma.Microsoft y AOL ahora son la compa¯a mas grande deinternetyen un esfuerzo porque el Microsoft Internet Explorer semantengacomoel programa mas usado, Microsoft y AOL estn haciendo una prueba -encuesta.Cuando usted env¯e este mensaje a sus amigos, Microsoftharunseguimiento (monitoreo) durante dos semanas ( si usted es usuariodeMicrosoft WindowsPor cada persona a la que usted le env¯e este mensajeMicrosoft le enviar U$245; por cada persona a la que seleenv¯eelmensajey que continúe divulgando el test, Microsoft le enviarU$243y porcada tercera persona que lo reciba usted ganar U$241.DentrodedossemanasMicrosoft lo contactar a su direcciõn y le enviar uncheque. YopensÄen >un momento que esto ser¯a una estafa pero dos semanas despuÄsdehaberrecibido el E-Mail y enviarlo, Microsoft me contactõ y me enviõunchequepor U$24.800 SaludosGustavo VogetFederal Trade SRL ____ Natalia G. CutroAsistencia a UsuariosNeuralsoft E-mail: natalia@neuralsoft.com.arweb: www.neuralsoft.com.ar Tel. 54 0341 4490008Fax: 54 0341 42142383 de Febrero 589(2000) Rosario from HARMS1@prodigy.net Tue Oct 19 19:29:07 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:28:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Chris, Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just where is this stream with ="naked bodies running through streamside vegetation." Hey, is this a =private stretch, or can anyone fish the stream? I don't go in much for =veggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor fornication"? I mean, come = Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds more =like the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella = cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Chris Wohlford Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy waters or cherry wine? All this talk of garbage and general lack of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience I =hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in the =mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the mood =hitme. After much searching and inquiries with the local DFG, I was =ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millions =ofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream, =roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in the earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and moved south to =Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. =Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate these =hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finally started to do. =Thetraffic was picking up on the road that follows the stream. I knewthere would be family outings at the pullouts upstream and =downstream from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the least =amountof access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this section =as well. At first it was subtle enough with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came the = Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but was =thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all =afternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. The =laststraw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoor =fornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them. Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash and a look on my =facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless to say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I =haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons =thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes think =they'veadopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fish =Icatch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford Chris, Ok, now's thetime = = Or, maybe those = bodies at all; actually, it sounds more like the usual late-May spinner = the "ephemerella Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= *¡ <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy = cherry wine?All this talk of garbage and = of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a = memorable experience I hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my = is done in the mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout = with the local DFG, I was ableto locate a small stream for just = purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a = of miles from millions ofpeople. It even has a little bit of = history. The stream, roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in = earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop = moved south to Hollywood.One of the first times I fished it = Memorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been = to educate these hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they = finally started to do. Thetraffic was picking up on the road = pullouts upstream and downstream from me and I had waded intothe = of stream with the least amountof access. For some reason the = to also fancy this section as well.At first it was subtle = with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with = occasional can. Then came the flood. Styrofoam plates, more = wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. = soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating = had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to = disgust but was thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept = streamside vegetation. The laststraw was when I waded around a = into some outdoor fornication.Now, I've never seen another = this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight = Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash = look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless = left thestream in disgust.I still occasionally go back = stream on weekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing = with me. I sometimes think they'veadopted me and are trying to = something because all the fish Icatch seem to get away and the = Wohlford from noblur@stic.net Tue Oct 19 19:44:18 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? There's one in every crowd ! We have a lake near here, where you can =pull into a cove, and it's full of university co-eds, sitting in the sun =! NOT A STITCH ! Sure messes up your concentration ! GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 10:25 PMSubject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Chris, Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just where is this stream =with "naked bodies running through streamside vegetation." Hey, is this =a private stretch, or can anyone fish the stream? I don't go in much = Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds more =like the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella = cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Chris Wohlford Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy waters or cherry wine? All this talk of garbage and general lack of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience I =hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in the =mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the mood =hitme. After much searching and inquiries with the local DFG, I was =ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millions =ofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream, =roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in the earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and moved south to =Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. =Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate these =hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finally started to do. =Thetraffic was picking up on the road that follows the stream. I knewthere would be family outings at the pullouts upstream and =downstream from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the least =amountof access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this section =as well. At first it was subtle enough with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came the = Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but was =thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all =afternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. The =laststraw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoor =fornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them. Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash and a look on my =facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless to say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I =haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons =thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes think =they'veadopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fish =Icatch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford There's one in every crowd ! We have a lake near here, = can pull into a cove, and it's full of university co-eds, sitting in the = NOT A STITCH ! Sure messes up your concentration ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- HARMS = Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= PMSubject: Re: Muddy waters or = wine? Chris, Ok, now's thetime = = = on, just how disgusted are we= Or, maybe those= bodies at all; actually, it sounds more like the usual late-May = Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy = cherry wine?All this talk of garbage and = of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a = memorable experience I hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my = is done in the mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout = with the local DFG, I was ableto locate a small stream for just = purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a = of miles from millions ofpeople. It even has a little bit of = history. The stream, roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in = earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop = moved south to Hollywood.One of the first times I fished it = Memorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been = to educate these hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they = finally started to do. Thetraffic was picking up on the road = pullouts upstream and downstream from me and I had waded intothe = of stream with the least amountof access. For some reason the = to also fancy this section as well.At first it was subtle = with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with = occasional can. Then came the flood. Styrofoam plates, more = wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. = soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating = had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to = disgust but was thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept = streamside vegetation. The laststraw was when I waded around a = into some outdoor fornication.Now, I've never seen another = this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight = Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash = look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless = left thestream in disgust.I still occasionally go back = stream on weekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing = with me. I sometimes think they'veadopted me and are trying to = something because all the fish Icatch seem to get away and the = Wohlford from saltwein@swbell.net Tue Oct 19 20:06:37 1999 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: Re: Node question Harry, I know exactly what you are talking about. I had a lot of problems withthese areas before I started soaking and straightening. Now I cangenerally work these kinks out with a little creative bending and heat. Iwill work on these areas right up to final planing. Let me say this about nodes though. I really kind of like the way they lookon a rod. I believe they give it a lot of character. It draws it away froma plastic look to more the look of the real world. I want people to knowthat the rod is bamboo and not a laminate that looks like it. Of course the foregoing is just my opinion. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 19 20:12:33 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:11:51 +0000 Subject: Re: Georgechat Sue, As that commercial says so eloquently, "Just DO it"! You won't regretit. I'm on rod #2, a Thramer 444. This is the first of a possible tworod experiment, the first is a one piece and the second will have aferrule. It isn't a hobby anymore, rather an addiction. Enjoy, Dennis Sue K. wrote: I might add, on a happy note that I rec'd word last night from a canebuilding friend in another state, the he DID get offered a job inColorado, close to where I live, and he and wife will be moving upyet this calendar year. You know what this means ? *VVBG* I shallsomeday in the next year or so, cajole myself into apprenticeship. Atleast to build a one and only cane for myself ! *G*prepare yourselves RodMakers Listcolorado -- I know I'm insane, but it's the only thing that keeps me from goingcrazy! from chris@artistree.com Tue Oct 19 20:38:36 1999 Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Bill,Let's just say these sparsely dressed mating patterns were pretty uglyand I doubt any self respecting trout would rise to them. Best Regards,Chris Chris,Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just where is this stream with"naked bodies running through streamside vegetation." Hey, is this aprivate stretch, or can anyone fish the stream? I don't go in much forveggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor fornication"? I mean, comeon, just how disgusted are we going to be, here? Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds morelike the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerellahornystudentus"! cheers, Bill from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 19 21:18:33 1999 Subject: Re: Georgechat George scares the list.At the moment he is making junk and he knows bugger all, but.... Sue K. wrote: At 10:26 PM 10/18/1999 EDT, you wrote:Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finallylooked at his web site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quitworrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him andwhat he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret mmmm, sounds like someone here might under the age of 30.either that or ? come on now, these listservs are for just abouteveryone, if you start deciding who can and cannot be 'on'them, who you should keep and not keep, what's the point ofthe forum ? remember, everyone, at all ends of the spectrum provide everyoneelse with a benchmark, something to gauge against (pun intended,*S*). You gotta have the extremes. If nothing else it lets themiddle grounders know where they stand. no offense meant here, but if you're going to suggest the RodMakersnot KEEP George (who i don't know from Adam), then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now....suecoloradonorthern tier-annist from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 19 21:31:25 1999 Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? Cowboy hats and achey breaky hearts, you are so lucky mon ami! John K. Cerise wrote: I don't know how you put up with those types. out here in CO, we'd use'em I fished in WV and I found the scenery to be unbearable, what withall thelitter and especially the milk jugs found on all the lakes. What the hellis wrong with these people? And then people wonder why us native Coloradans hate to see some oftheeasterners move out here!!! God, some of them take a lot of retraining.We have found it's best if we usually start with a lobotomy and workinward from there. Now if 'that' doesn't generate some mail!!! Really, we are so very lucky here in the West, we do need to appreciateitmore that almost all of the folks here who use the public lands respectthem and leave them in good shape. We work hard at the education of ourhunters and fishers and peer pressure helps a lot here. I have seen (Froma really close view!!! LOL) landowners literally chase down a guy whotossed a beer can out of a vehicle on a county road and reminded him thathe ought to go back a couple miles and pick it up!! The guy was happy todo so too, I might add! Keep fighting the good fight, it is appreciated by all real sportsmen andwomen!! Thanks from the West. John At 04:33 PM 10/19/99 GMT, you wrote: allthe fish out with worms, spinners, and multiple rod setups and leavetheirtrash - cans, styrofoam, light bulbs(!?!) - for us visitors to clean up andpack out. To boot, they post to keep visitors out. Talk about messingone'sown nest.... Best,-Ed Tony Spezio cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: muddywaters or cherry wine?owner- rodmakers@wugate .wustl.edu 10/19/99 10:55 AM Please respond to flytyr George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am sickofseeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with aice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I hadbetter get back to planing, got three more strips to do.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote: At least these imitations are artificial ! Here,where the state stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout,with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, theseKlutz's litter the river bank with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA----- Original Message ----- From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53 AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com With a View from the Western Side of Things Kid Cerise from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Oct 19 21:34:55 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? 3CB8F535D99040773AF860FD" --------------3CB8F535D99040773AF860FD are you sure this is what you are seeing? you told us last week you hadcataracts! George M. Aldrich wrote: There's one in every crowd ! We have a lake near here, where you canpull into a cove, and it's full of university co-eds, sitting in thesun ! NOT A STITCH ! Sure messes up your concentration ! GMA ----- Original Message -----From: WILLIAM A HARMS Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 10:25 PMSubject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine?Chris, Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just whereis this stream with "naked bodies running through streamsidevegetation." Hey, is this a private stretch, or can anyonefish the stream? I don't go in much for veggies andwatermelon rinds--but "outdoor fornication"? I mean, comeon, just how disgusted are we going to be, here? Or, maybethose weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds morelike the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerellahornystudentus"! cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Chris Wohlford Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy waters or cherry wine?All this talkof garbage and general lack of respect of the landandstreams we cherish brought back a recent andmemorable experience I hadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing isdone in the mountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fishwhenever the mood hitme. After much searching and inquiries with thelocal DFG, I was ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes.This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple ofmiles from millions ofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywoodhistory. The stream, roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in theearliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and movedsouth to Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on aMemorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying toeducate these hatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finallystarted to do. Thetraffic was picking up on the road that followsthe stream. I knewthere would be family outings at the pulloutsupstream and downstream from me and I had waded into the section of streamwith the least amountof access. For some reason the trout seem to alsofancy this section as well. At first it was subtle enough with a floatingplastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can.Then came the flood.Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chipbags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I wasaiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I hadworked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave indisgust but was thankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming allafternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamsidevegetation. The laststraw was when I waded around a bend and into someoutdoor fornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on thisstream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them.Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trashand a look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needlessto say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream onweekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pairof Blue Herons thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. Isometimes think they'veadopted me and are trying to teach me somethingbecause all the fish Icatch seem to get away and the only thing I leavewith is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford --------------3CB8F535D99040773AF860FD are you sure this is what you are seeing? you told us last week you hadcataracts! George M. Aldrich wrote: There's one in every crowd! We have a lake near here, where you can pull into a cove, and it's fullof university co-eds, sitting in the sun ! NOT A STITCH ! Sure messes up ----- Original Message ----- From:WILLIAMA HARMS ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 199910:25PM Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherrywine? this stream with "naked bodies running through streamside don't go in much for veggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor I mean, come on,just how disgusted are we going to be, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds more likethe usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella -----OriginalMessage-----From: Chris Wohlford<chris@artistree.com> *¡ <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu>Date: Tuesday, October 19,1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy waters orcherrywine?All this talk of garbage and general lack of respectof the land andstreams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience Ihadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in themountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the moodhit was ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millionsofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream,roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in the earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and moved south to Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate thesehatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finally started to do. The knewthere would be family outings at the pullouts upstream anddownstream from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the leastamountof access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this sectionas well. At first it was subtle enough with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came theflood.Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but wasthankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all afternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. Thelaststraw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoorfornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them. Bamboo rod in onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash and a look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless to say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes thinkthey'veadopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fishIcatch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford --------------3CB8F535D99040773AF860FD-- from srosenc@together.net Tue Oct 19 21:35:50 1999 22:35:43 -0400 EDT Subject: Re: Orvis serial numbers cane builder wrote: Has anyone ever seen a listing of Orvis serial numbers by year. I havelooked everywhere that I can think of, with no sucess. Thanks, cane builder Try calling Orvis at 1-800-778-4778 or (802)362-3900. You might ask Greg Comar since his is knowledgeable about bamboo. Steve from channer@hubwest.com Tue Oct 19 21:38:17 1999 Subject: Re: Improving accuracy At 11:14 AM 10/19/1999 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Jim, Doing so usually results in oversized rod sections. There are two solutions to inaccurate measurements that I am awareof: Use a light touch, and perhaps the very lightly set ratchet-clutchmechanism thingy on a good micrometer. The only source I know of for such a gizmo is: John Long 16231 Appleby Lane Northville, MI 48167 http://www.shentel.net/canerod/ Once youhave an accurate reading for your depth gauge, you then use it to set theother stations. Solving problems is one thing that keeps rodmaking interesting. Harry Boyd Jim Utzerath wrote: I have completed my first blanks, and Iam not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips in relation to theform depth. What do you think are the most important things to do toimprove? I am using maple forms, leaving the enamel on, otherwisegoing print? Jim and Harry;I don't even measure from enamel side to pith apex any more, measure theother 2 sides instead. Also, i find it more accurate to sand the enamel offthe strips before final planing. Works for meJohn from channer@hubwest.com Tue Oct 19 21:38:19 1999 Subject: Re: Node question At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 -0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let's saythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest of thestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in the centerand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the vise enamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while you heatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helps ifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node area thesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straight andflat.John from brookie@frii.com Tue Oct 19 21:40:42 1999 Subject: Naming rod tapers Dennis had written today, re my comment that I will soon,perhaps in 2000 build my first cane : Sue, As that commercial says so eloquently, "Just DO it"! You won't regret it. I'm on rod #2, a Thramer 444.This is the first of a possible two rod experiment, the first is a one piece and the second will have aferrule. It isn't a hobby anymore, rather an addiction. Well, I have to wait for the cane building friend to show upin Colorado. I can't afford any of the building equipment,and will be using his ! Question for the group, it appears that if you follow anotherrod maker's taper, you call the rod after that person, e.g.,Thramer... If I take a taper that I like of another builder, slightlymodify it, could I reasonably expect to call it then a"Kreutzer taper" or ? Not being facitious (sp?) here, honest question... suecoloradonorthern sector from EESweet@aol.com Tue Oct 19 21:43:49 1999 Subject: Fast 8' #6 taper? Hi all, Well, after lurking for many months I'm about ready to start on my firstrod. I had planned on going with the Sir D everyone speaks so highly of, but I've been given the opportunity to head to New Zealand in November and thought that a #6 might be more appropriate. I prefer fairly fast rods, which the Sir D is said to be, and a 3 piece would be easier for travel...given all this does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks in advance for any help! Eric from brookie@frii.com Tue Oct 19 21:49:49 1999 Subject: The guy who gets all the press Terry wrote : George scares the list.At the moment he is making junk and he knows bugger all, but.... Well not being around this RodM. list long, I have read enoughposts re Mr. G and his rods and I do NOT pick up 'scared' atall. I would say instead perhaps "rankled" or "annoyed", butnot scared. I don't know ANY scared flyfishermen, and that would transferover to cane builders. Respectively disagree on the scared part. I will say this, Mr. G. surely does get alot of press. On allnet fronts. Right now the general flyfishing listserv, FLYFISH@is talking about him and his rods. A well known flyfisher outof Idaho, Dave Engerbretson has had occasion to cast his rod andposted a rather nice 'review' of it. Dave of course has builtcane in his day too :-) Whether the press for Mr. G's rods is good or bad, he IS gettingit. All Americans know this too well, ANY press is in fact 'good'if you are trying to sell a product. If any of you that are not on the FLYFISH@ want to see Dave E'sreview, let me know and I'll forward in private email. cheers,sue from richjez@enteract.com Tue Oct 19 21:55:54 1999 Subject: Re: muddy waters or cherry wine? These Illinois trout have their stomachs filled with plastic bait. Catch and release is done by jerking the hook out of their mouths while trying to set it. No cans, just Berkley et. al. wrappers on the bank. Timothy, where are you in IL? Rich Jezioro At 10:55 AM 10/19/99 -0500, Tony Spezio wrote:George,You just rubbed a sore spot with me. I live on a trout river and am sick of seeing dead gorged trout. The cans are in the river and they leave with a ice chest full of trout. That leaves the local people to clean up. I had better get back to planing, got three more strips to do.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. George M. Aldrich wrote:At least these imitations are artificial ! Here, where the state stocks in the spring, we've picked up small dying trout, with their gut crammed shut with kernels of corn ! On top of that, these Klutz's litter the river bank with empty, canned corn cans ! GMA----- Original Message ----- From: timothy troester Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 7:53 AMSubject: muddy waters or cherry wine?greetings! this passed weekend in illinois wasopening trout season. in illinois the state imports'bows twice a year from missouri and plants them invarious lakes throughout the state. the object is tocatch the fish before they choke to death on the crud.rod builders are amazing people. not only can we dotasks with glue on our fingers but i have a friendthan has developed a series of fly patterns thatimitate various types of hatchery fish food. the bestof these are the pellet fly and the corn kernel.actually i support this program even tho'to me it seems to be no more than expensive groceries.catch and release is an issue that seems to be forother states, the ones with trout streams. we've beenable to use this as a vehicle to promote catch andrelease for other species and we've recently had somediscussion about fishing spawning beds. it's not allmuddy waters in illinois. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@ /||/______/_||_________________________________________||/\/ \ > > from rsgould@cmc.net Tue Oct 19 22:16:23 1999 Subject: Re: Naming rod tapers Hi Sue,As far as I'm concerned if you modify a taper you can name it whateverpleases you. The subtlety and particular nuance of a taper is what gives ita distinctive character.And incidentally it's spelled "facetious".Ray ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Naming rod tapers Dennis had written today, re my comment that I will soon,perhaps in 2000 build my first cane : Sue, As that commercial says so eloquently, "Just DO it"!You won't regret it. I'm on rod #2, a Thramer 444.This is the first of a possible two rod experiment,the first is a one piece and the second will have aferrule. It isn't a hobby anymore, rather anaddiction. Well, I have to wait for the cane building friend to show upin Colorado. I can't afford any of the building equipment,and will be using his ! Question for the group, it appears that if you follow anotherrod maker's taper, you call the rod after that person, e.g.,Thramer... If I take a taper that I like of another builder, slightlymodify it, could I reasonably expect to call it then a"Kreutzer taper" or ? Not being facitious (sp?) here, honest question... suecoloradonorthern sector from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 19 22:46:16 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:45:41 +0800 Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? types="text/plain,text/html"; --=====================_1434726==_.ALT I used to bass fish in streams in a place called Nimbin in Northern New=SouthWales. It's the original and now only hippy retreat here in Aust. There wassometime about happening across stoned naked people while fishing thatadded=awhole new dimension to this fishing trip.... man.And you'r right, it does put you off your fishing. Tony There's one in every crowd ! We have a lake near here, where you can pullinto a cove, and it's full of university co-eds, sitting in the sun ! NOT=ASTITCH ! Sure messes up your concentration ! GMA Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just where is this stream with"naked bodies running through streamside vegetation." Hey, is this aprivate stretch, or can anyone fish the stream? I don't go in much forveggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor fornication"? I mean,come=on, Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds more=likethe usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella hornystudentus"! From: Chris Wohlford *=A1 Subject: Muddy waters or cherry wine? streams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience Ihad= recently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in the mountains= but I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the mood hit= me. After much searching and inquiries with the local DFG, I was within a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millions people. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream, road= films before the studios closed up shop and moved south to Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. day started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate thesehatchery= there would be family outings at the pullouts upstream and from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the leastamount= of access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this section aswell. there. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came the Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, between all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to this stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but wasthankful= I had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all afternoon...including= a few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. The straw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoorfornication.= stream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I have= yet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons always seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes thinkthey've= adopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fish catch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Chris Wohlford /*************************************************************************/ Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/= --=====================_1434726==_.ALT I used to bass fish in streams in a place called Nimbin in Northern NewSouth Wales. It's the original and now only hippy retreat here in Aust.There was sometime about happening across stoned naked people whilefishing that added a whole new dimension to this fishing trip....man.And you'r right, it does put you off your fishing. Tony At 07:43 PM 10/19/99 -0500, George M. Aldrich wrote: There's one in every crowd ! We have alakenear here, where you can pull into a cove, and it's full of universityco-eds, sitting in the sun ! NOT A STITCH ! Sure messes up yourconcentration ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- From:WILLIAM A=HARMS Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 10:25 PMSubject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Chris, is this streamwith= Hey,= in much for veggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor= going= Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds more=like the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella= cheers, Bill -----Original Message----- Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:13 PMSubject: Muddy waters or cherry wine? All this talk of garbage and general lack of respect of the land andstreams we cherish brought back a recent and memorable experience Ihadrecently on a local stream. Most of my fishing is done in themountainsbut I wanted to find a local trout stream to fish whenever the moodhit was=ableto locate a small stream for just these purposes. This stream flowswithin a rural county park set just a couple of miles from millions ofpeople. It even has a little bit of hollywood history. The stream, roadand railroad tracks can all be seen in the earliest Charlie Chaplinfilms before the studios closed up shop and moved south to=Hollywood. One of the first times I fished it was on a Memorial day weekend. Theday started out calm enough. I had been trying to educate thesehatcheryrainbows to take a dry fly which they were finally started to do. The knewthere would be family outings at the pullouts upstream anddownstream from me and I had waded into the section of stream with the leastamountof access. For some reason the trout seem to also fancy this sectionas=well. At first it was subtle enough with a floating plastic cup here andthere. Then a few more with and a occasional can. Then came theflood.= Styrofoam plates, more cups, candy wrappers, chip bags, watermelonrinds, even a couple of coolers. Pretty soon I was aiming my castsbetween all the trash floating downstream. I had worked hard to findthis stream and was determined not to leave in disgust but wasthankfulI had worn my hipboats. The trash kept coming all afternoon...includinga few naked bodies running through the streamside vegetation. Thelaststraw was when I waded around a bend and into some outdoorfornication.Now, I've never seen another fisherman on this stream and in allfairness I must have been quite the sight to them. Bamboo rod in=onehand, hip boots on, fly vest bulging with trash and a look on my facethat would make an irish minister weep. Needless to say I left thestream in disgust. I still occasionally go back to this stream on weekday evenings. I haveyet to see anyone else fishing except for the pair of Blue Herons thatalways seem to share my favorite run with me. I sometimes thinkthey'veadopted me and are trying to teach me something because all the fish Icatch seem to get away and the only thing I leave with is garbage. Best Regards,Chris Wohlford /**********************************************************************=***/AV Young And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. /*************************************************************************/ --=====================_1434726==_.ALT-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Oct 19 23:06:19 1999 Subject: microsoft rubbish To anybody on the list that received some Microsoft rubbish from me.I got this emailed to me but didn't delete it but kept it to read later. Assoon as I sent a message I meant to send the MS related email launcheditself and started sending itself off to everybody on the cc list.I killed it off like a mad dog as soon as I saw this happening but somepeople will have had it sent to them. Sorry.Delete it on sight with extreme prejudice. Tony/*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from Nodewrrior@aol.com Tue Oct 19 23:09:34 1999 Subject: Re: Fast 8' #6 taper? Eric,May I recommend the PHY Boat Rod taper that posted that should still bein the Stetzer/online hexrod taper archive. Anybody who saw what this rodcan do at Grayrock last June would agree it's a formidable 6wt, made for pickingup lots of line and shooting it out from a moving boat. The only prob is that it's a 2pc, not the three you want to take on the friendly skies... Rob Hoffhines from mrj@aa.net Wed Oct 20 01:50:26 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:50:08 -0700 Subject: RE: Improving accuracy You are planing the enamel off at some point aren't you? I don't think youcan get an accurate measurement if you don't.regarding crushing the apex of the triangle. I use a dial caliper or morecorrectly a digital caliper, not a Micrometer and I find it extremely hardto crush the apex without knowing it. In my last profession (Marine DieselMechanic) I used a mic all the time so maybe I know how to use one, but Iwas really impressed with how hard the bamboo was and that no matterhowhard I wanted to "get" a certain reading I wasn't able to.I think that for me, the more rods I built, the better my tolerancesbecame.It's that simple. There are no magic formulas that allow a novice or firsttime rod builder to obtain real close tolerances. If your measurements arewithin a few thousands the first time out, I'd pat my self on the back.That's a hell of a lot better than I've ever done!Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: October 19, 1999 9:15 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Improving accuracy Jim,Sounds like you need to be sure that your forms are set correctly, andyour strips are measured accurately. It is VERY easy to crush the apex ofabamboo strip when measuring it. Doing so usually results in oversized rodsections.There are two solutions to inaccurate measurements that I am awareof:First, learn to measure more carefully. That's not easy. Use a lighttouch, and perhaps the very lightly set ratchet-clutch mechanism thingyon agood micrometer.Second, get an attachment for the jaws of your dial caliper whichallows the jaws to close without crushing the apex of the triangle. Theonly source I know of for such a gizmo is:John Long16231 Appleby LaneNorthville, MI 48167Forms can be set very accurately using the drill rod method describedon Chris Bogart's web page, http://www.shentel.net/canerod/ It can beapain to figure the first time, but it is worthwhile. Once you have anaccurate reading for your depth gauge, you then use it to set the otherstations.Don't let this little problem set you back too far. Most of us havesimilar problems from time to time. Solving problems is one thing thatkeeps rodmaking interesting. Harry Boyd Jim Utzerath wrote: Can anyone give a beginner some direction? I have completed my firstblanks, and I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips inrelation to the form depth. What do you think are the most importantthingsto do to improve? I did a nodeless blank that tended to finish oversize afew mil; but another conventional blank tended be undersize. I am usingmaple forms, leaving the enamel on, otherwise going by the Book. Thanksinadvance; gotta split. P.S. I designed an interesting vertical "lathe"attachment for a floor model drill press that I built for about $150.Anyone interested in a print? are planing the enamel off at some point aren't you? I don't think you = an accurate measurement if you don't. regarding crushing the apex of thetriangle. = profession (Marine Diesel Mechanic) I used a mic all the time so maybe I = = was and that no matter how hard I wanted to "get" a certain reading I = able to. think that for me, the more rods I built, the better my tolerances = that simple. There are no magic formulas that allow a novice or first = builder to obtain real close tolerances. If your measurements are within = thousands the first time out, I'd pat my self on the back. That's a hell = lot better than I've ever done!Martin Jensen = to be sure that your forms are set correctly, and your strips are = very lightly set ratchet-clutch mechanism thingy on a good micrometer.= caliper which allows the jaws to close without crushing the apex of = Appleby = you have an accurate reading for your depth gauge, you then use it to = I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips in relation = nodeless blank that tended to finish oversize a few mil; but another = leaving the enamel on, otherwise going by the = designed an interesting vertical "lathe" attachment for a floor = print? from mrj@aa.net Wed Oct 20 01:50:29 1999 Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:50:11 -0700 Subject: RE: Georgechat Hey Terry,Just after you wrote that you were bumped off his rodmakers list I took alook and saw one of your messages posted! About the off center handlesandepoxy. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- ACKLAND Subject: Re: Georgechat George scares the list.At the moment he is making junk and he knows bugger all, but.... Sue K. wrote: At 10:26 PM 10/18/1999 EDT, you wrote:Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finallylooked at his web site and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quitworrying about him and lets keep him off the list as him andwhat he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret mmmm, sounds like someone here might under the age of 30.either that or ? come on now, these listservs are for just abouteveryone, if you start deciding who can and cannot be 'on'them, who you should keep and not keep, what's the point ofthe forum ? remember, everyone, at all ends of the spectrum provide everyoneelse with a benchmark, something to gauge against (pun intended,*S*). You gotta have the extremes. If nothing else it lets themiddle grounders know where they stand. no offense meant here, but if you're going to suggest the RodMakersnot KEEP George (who i don't know from Adam), then you think itwould be a good idea also not to keep a talkative inquisitive no-nothing (YET) cane building female ? come on now....suecoloradonorthern tier-annist from EbayDealer13@aol.com Wed Oct 20 03:04:22 1999 Subject: 50 Cents an hour to surf the web!!! An honest 50 cents an hour to do something you already do! You'll get paid for your friends being on too!Quick,Painless sign up,only takes 5 minutes! NO PORN!Click hereto sign up! from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Wed Oct 20 03:23:33 1999 Subject: Re: Fast 8' #6 taper? Eric, As I live in New Zealand I can offer some opinions here. I have a Wayne C.7'6" which the Sir D is based on . It is the ideal rod for the smallerstreams in New Zealand. I use it a lot for mountain amd bush streams. I also have a Dickerson 8015 ( from page 48 of "the lovely reed " by JackHowell) which is a very powerful, 8 foot, weight 7 rod. One of the bestknow guides in New Zealand has tried it and described it as the perfect rod rivers in the top of the South Island , not quite as big as the Taupo riversbut a fair size. Local fishing tackle retailers tell me that weight 7 is the largest sellingweight in NZ , with 6 following close behind. NZ is actually a very windycountry , it sits on the "roaring forties" trade route , and when theprevailing winds are not blowing the closeness to the sea sets up seabreezes which affect most rivers by midday in the summer months. Assuch arod with enough power to punch into the wind is pretty handy. I guess myrecommendation would be to have two rods , one weight 5 and the other aweight 7. The Sir D would be ideal as the weight 5 and I would suggest youconsider the Dickerson 8015 as the #7. If you do decide on the Dickersonyouneed to modify the taper from Howells book to allow for a 15 ferrule asthetaper provides for a stepdown ferrule. Incidently we are having a Southern rodmakers meeting in the firstweekendof November in NZ if you are around then. Otherwise if you need any help ,or are visiting the top of the South Island please do not hesitate tocontact me. My phone number here is 03 5445556 which is a Nelsonnumber. regards Ian Kearney PM 19/10/99 EDT, EESweet@aol.com wrote:Hi all, Well, after lurking for many months I'm about ready to start on my firstrod. I had planned on going with the Sir D everyone speaks so highly of, butI've been given the opportunity to head to New Zealand in November andthought that a #6 might be more appropriate. I prefer fairly fast rods, which the Sir D is said to be, and a 3 piece would be easier for travel...given all this does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks in advance for any help! Eric from jackdale@uswest.net Wed Oct 20 07:28:01 1999 (209.180.254.227) Subject: Re: microsoft rubbish Tony,That sounds mighty like a virus. Did you check it out?Jack Dale Tony Young wrote: To anybody on the list that received some Microsoft rubbish from me.I got this emailed to me but didn't delete it but kept it to read later. Assoon as I sent a message I meant to send the MS related email launcheditself and started sending itself off to everybody on the cc list.I killed it off like a mad dog as soon as I saw this happening but somepeople will have had it sent to them. Sorry.Delete it on sight with extreme prejudice. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from HARMS1@prodigy.net Wed Oct 20 08:03:50 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:03:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Chris, So, in the toss-up, you're going for the watermelon rind, I take it? =This is not a pretty sight... . cheers, Bill -----Original Message-----From: Chris Wohlford Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 6:39 PMSubject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? Bill,Let's just say these sparsely dressed mating patterns were pretty =uglyand I doubt any self respecting trout would rise to them. Best Regards,Chris Chris,Ok, now's the time for "fish and tell." Just where is this stream =with"naked bodies running through streamside vegetation." Hey, is this =aprivate stretch, or can anyone fish the stream? I don't go in much =forveggies and watermelon rinds--but "outdoor fornication"? I mean, =come Or, maybe those weren't naked bodies at all; actually, it sounds =morelike the usual late-May spinner fall of the "ephemerella cheers, Bill Chris, So, in the toss-up, = . Bill -----Original = rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, October 19, 1999 6:39 PMSubject: Re: Muddy = cherry wine?Bill,Let's just say these = dressed mating patterns were pretty uglyand I doubt any self = Regards,ChrisChris,Ok, now's the time for = actually, it sounds morelike the usual late-May spinner fall of = Bill from cathcreek@hotmail.com Wed Oct 20 08:49:58 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 06:49:22 PDT Subject: fishing in Coeurdelene, ID Sorry if off topic. I will be in the Courdelene, ID area at the end of the month and was hoping to get some fishing in. Any suggestions? Respond off list if you prefer. Thanks, Robert Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.com "sorry, gys, can't make it to Bishop, but I will be thinking of you" ______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Wed Oct 20 09:18:02 1999 VirusWall NT);Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:16:28 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Georgechat Who is this George? are we talking about G. Maurer? I was thinking abouttaking his rod building classis it worth doing so? Thanks,Kirk from noblur@stic.net Wed Oct 20 09:27:24 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: PHY Parabolic #11 O.K., here are the dimensions for the Paul H, Young #11 parabolic 3 - =pc. rod, at 9'-4". Measurements are taken from the bare cane at the tip =top, in the noted measurements. Note that from the 35" mark, to the 37" =mark, this is the distance from 35", to the edge of the tip male ferrule =serration. I gave this dimension, because it's where the cane enters the =ferrule. However, the 41.5" mark is taken from the 35" mark, in a 6.5' =jump. this is due to the whole ferrule, and a guide preventing a =measurement at 5" increments. *** Note: This dimension bothers me, and I will re-check. I checked =again this morning, and they are accurate ! GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 8:41 PMSubject: Re: PHY Parabolic #11 George,I have a few questions on the data. First, I thought Young named his =rods mid-rodthe dimension suggests a 16/64 diameter. Is there some other reason =forreferring to it as a No.11?Also, the increments and totals (on length) seem to be at odds when =youget to around 30": 2" after 30 you call it 37", then 6.5" later, it's =41.5.Thereafter they seem to fit again. Did you omit typing a station orsomething? Otherwise the thing looks about right to me. I'm sure if =you putit on the list others will think of suggestions beyond mine, but I =can'tsee any reason to wait after you check out the few possible mid-rod =anomalies.Thanks,Art At 08:18 PM 10/19/1999 -0500, you wrote:Hi Art, I did allot of measuring today, and checking in a number =ofplaces, I find the varnish accounts for .0035". This is checking a =newtip, with no varnish, against one that has been done, since 1953. =Here'sthe dimensions taken from the tip top ferrule, with the amount of =spacingbetween measurements. I skipped from 5" to 6", or 6.5", when guides =orferrules, or wrappings were in the way. Take a look, and if you think =they .0914 (5") 5" (41.5") 3.5" (105.5") Theactual length, is 112", or 9'-4", and the grip/reel seat is 10.75 " =fromfront cork, to base or rod/reel seat. There is no winding check, as =withall PHY rods, I know of. I've double checked these dimensions, but =I'mold enough to NEVER say never ! If you see anything that looks =weird, letme know and I'll measure again. Best, GMA ----- Original =Message George,Sounds like you were very fortunate. I have only been lucky enough =to knowHoagie Carmichael, none of the old-time greats. While Hoagie is a =greatguy, he ain't a Payne or a Gillum!I don't know if any of those rods are available on the open =market, but IDO know that when products of the masters become available the =cheapestareusually the longest and heaviest. People seem to covet the trout =rods mostof all. The General should fit that inexpensive category, no?I don't know where you are but you might be able to find someone =with aplaning form near you who uses it only intermittently. If you'reconstructing model ANYTHINGS you have the talent to make cane =rods.Diligence and attention to detail are the most necessary =qualities, Ithink.I've built the Driggs, Cattanach's version of the Para 15 (The =Force), andthe Perfectionist. I think the Driggs is the nicest to cast, but =the ForceREALLY punches out a line!I have the taper for the Martha Marie and the General, but I've =beentrying lots of tapers to see what I like the best and have already =donemore than my share of PHYs. I'm beginning to see that if the =letters P-H-Yare on the butt I'll like the taper.I tried your URL and am getting a 404-File not found (?). Any = Let me know if you start building and I can be of any help.Art At 11:25 PM 10/18/1999 -0500, you wrote:of took me under his wing. II had known how tohim. My #11other two.done had left us ! I never forget a kindness, like Paulbuilding my own rod, then the first would be ahad to sell them, when times were tough.Marie, as he spoke of it so often to?I'm semi retired now, at 67, but still run a little machine = Nice to hear, and I'll let all have the----- OriginalSent: George,picked up a calipersickness". Now, oneobsessive/compulsive enough *BSEG*?an Excel format. If you find thatlet me know and if I have it,it's"List of 25" (15 of them),that thehaven't gotten a dog out of thosesuggestions yet!Art 07:55 PM 10/18/1999 -0500, you wrote: stations , but I'd like to know myself anyway.Since Ithe.0001", so willIt's certainly wellI've never built a rod, and it's onlyhave the time to devote to it. Whether I decidetoso this II'll layout a dimension Sent: Monday, October 18, George,is up to the user.withstation is obscured by a guidethen we interpolate. I hopeyou'vedifficult to assess anotherthe anvils of your micrometeravoidtake on the job: it'scustomarythemtwo which are closest to"wild" one (if there is one). Usually weestimateSWAG.muchunderstand.Art allover the list.) 10/18/1999 -0500, you wrote:eachstations along the finishedrod, if noblur@stic.net Re: George,orto*BSEG*.Thanks,Art wrote:Midge ----- dmanders@telusplanet.net 1999 ithisinpowell 9'5wt i &wrote:Guys/Gals. freshinwouldit be? mildtaper. think? Don bear"__________________________________________________Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com O.K., here are the dimensions for the Paul H, Young #11 = - pc. rod, at 9'-4". Measurements are taken from the bare cane at the = in the noted measurements. Note that from the 35" mark, to the 37" mark,= the distance from 35", to the edge of the tip male ferrule serration. I = this dimension, because it's where the cane enters the ferrule. However, = 41.5" mark is taken from the 35" mark, in a 6.5' jump. this is due to = ferrule, and a guide preventing a measurement at 5" =increments. ferrule)**** *** Note: This dimension bothers me, and I will re-check. I= again this morning, and they are accurate ! GMA ----- Original Message ----- Art =Port Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= PMSubject: Re: PHY Parabolic =#11George,I have a few questions on the data. First, I = Young named his rodsby the ferrule-size. I expected this to have = ferrule! At mid-rodthe dimension suggests a 16/64 diameter. Is = other reason forreferring to it as a No.11?Also, the = totals (on length) seem to be at odds when youget to around 30": = 30 you call it 37", then 6.5" later, it's 41.5.Thereafter they = again. Did you omit typing a station orsomething? Otherwise the = looks about right to me. I'm sure if you putit on the list others = think of suggestions beyond mine, but I can'tsee any reason to = anomalies.Thanks,ArtAt 08:18 PM 10/19/1999 -0500, = = have = my share of PHYs. I'm beginning to see that if the letters = = semi retired now, at 67, but still run a little = = let all have = = = = = = = = = we = = the = = are = = = = = stations = = = = = = = = = = = =----- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = from noblur@stic.net Wed Oct 20 09:34:03 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:33:57 -0500 Subject: PHY Parabolic #11 I forgot to add that the grip to end of the reel seat is 10.75" long, =and there is no winding check. GMA I forgot to add that the grip to end of the reel seat is = long, and there is no winding check. GMA from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 20 09:46:54 1999 0700 Subject: Re: Node question Steve,Like you, I think the nodes add something to the aesthetic of a bamboorod. I just with that I could make every one of them look the same, ratherthan having one seem perfect and the next have cut power fibers.I'll show you what I'm talking about next week at SRG. Harry Steve Trauthwein wrote: Harry, I know exactly what you are talking about. I had a lot of problems withthese areas before I started soaking and straightening. Now I cangenerally work these kinks out with a little creative bending and heat. Iwill work on these areas right up to final planing. Let me say this about nodes though. I really kind of like the way theylookon a rod. I believe they give it a lot of character. It draws it away froma plastic look to more the look of the real world. I want people to knowthat the rod is bamboo and not a laminate that looks like it. Of course the foregoing is just my opinion. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 20 09:53:54 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:53:28 +0800 Subject: Re: microsoft rubbish Yes, I checked it. It's not a virus in the scence it doesdamage behind thescenes, this one self replicates before your eyes and is more a nuciencethan anything. Much like the bogus virus alarms that come out every onceina while. Tony At 06:28 AM 10/20/99 -0600, Jack Dale wrote:Tony,That sounds mighty like a virus. Did you check it out?Jack Dale Tony Young wrote: To anybody on the list that received some Microsoft rubbish from me.I got this emailed to me but didn't delete it but kept it to read later. Assoon as I sent a message I meant to send the MS related email launcheditself and started sending itself off to everybody on the cc list.I killed it off like a mad dog as soon as I saw this happening but somepeople will have had it sent to them. Sorry.Delete it on sight with extreme prejudice. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 20 10:05:50 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:05:11 +0800 Subject: Re: Georgechat Certainly NOT, this is the one and only George Gerke Tony At 08:16 AM 10/20/99 -0600, Brownlee, Kirk wrote:Who is this George? are we talking about G. Maurer? I was thinkingabouttaking his rod building classis it worth doing so? Thanks,Kirk /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from dati@selway.umt.edu Wed Oct 20 10:06:21 1999 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Improving accuracy I am new to the site and bamboo rod building. I just purchased amicrometer and want to know how fragile are they? I mean, if I droppedit on the carpet, which I did this morning, would it loose calibation.It is a lower end ENCO micrometer. Also, when measuring bamboo strips,how fine do I set the ratchet so as not to crush the apex of thetriangle. It is odd how little questions one has prior to starting a rodbut during the process a multitude of questions arise. ThanksDL On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Martin Jensen wrote: You are planing the enamel off at some point aren't you? I don't think youcan get an accurate measurement if you don't.regarding crushing the apex of the triangle. I use a dial caliper or morecorrectly a digital caliper, not a Micrometer and I find it extremely hardto crush the apex without knowing it. In my last profession (MarineDieselMechanic) I used a mic all the time so maybe I know how to use one, butIwas really impressed with how hard the bamboo was and that no matterhowhard I wanted to "get" a certain reading I wasn't able to.I think that for me, the more rods I built, the better my tolerancesbecame.It's that simple. There are no magic formulas that allow a novice or firsttime rod builder to obtain real close tolerances. If your measurementsarewithin a few thousands the first time out, I'd pat my self on the back.That's a hell of a lot better than I've ever done!Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: October 19, 1999 9:15 AM Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Improving accuracy Jim,Sounds like you need to be sure that your forms are set correctly,andyour strips are measured accurately. It is VERY easy to crush the apexof abamboo strip when measuring it. Doing so usually results in oversizedrodsections.There are two solutions to inaccurate measurements that I am awareof:First, learn to measure more carefully. That's not easy. Use a lighttouch, and perhaps the very lightly set ratchet-clutch mechanism thingyon agood micrometer.Second, get an attachment for the jaws of your dial caliper whichallows the jaws to close without crushing the apex of the triangle. Theonly source I know of for such a gizmo is:John Long16231 Appleby LaneNorthville, MI 48167Forms can be set very accurately using the drill rod methoddescribedon Chris Bogart's web page, http://www.shentel.net/canerod/ It canbe apain to figure the first time, but it is worthwhile. Once you have anaccurate reading for your depth gauge, you then use it to set the otherstations.Don't let this little problem set you back too far. Most of us havesimilar problems from time to time. Solving problems is one thing thatkeeps rodmaking interesting. Harry Boyd Jim Utzerath wrote: Can anyone give a beginner some direction? I have completed myfirstblanks, and I am not very satisfied with the accuracy of the strips inrelation to the form depth. What do you think are the most importantthingsto do to improve? I did a nodeless blank that tended to finish oversize afew mil; but another conventional blank tended be undersize. I am usingmaple forms, leaving the enamel on, otherwise going by the Book. Thanksinadvance; gotta split. P.S. I designed an interesting vertical "lathe"attachment for a floor model drill press that I built for about $150.Anyone interested in a print? from dhaftel@att.com Wed Oct 20 10:10:30 1999 LAA04223 (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1sol2) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: 50 Cents an hour to surf the web!!! No porn, but lots of SPAM! How did this slip onto the list??? -----Original Message----- Subject: 50 Cents an hour to surf the web!!! An honest 50 cents an hour to do something you already do! You'll get paid for your friends being on too!Quick,Painless sign up,only takes 5 minutes! NO PORN!Click hereto sign up! from jcollier@siu.edu Wed Oct 20 10:14:37 1999 0500 0500 Subject: Rough Planning Forms Thanks to all for the input on the final planning forms. I'm new to rodbuilding and trying to get all my equipment set up. What is the bestmethod bestmaterial, but what is the best construction method? Thank Again John Collier from deholton@iafrica.com Wed Oct 20 10:16:43 1999 Subject: Fw: Georgechat Greetings,I must have missed something. Who is GG and what is he doing that haseverybody riled up. Darrel Holtondeholton@iafrica.com-----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Georgechat Terry and list,Why do you guys even bother with GG? I went in and finally looked at hiswebsite and I must say I wasn't impressed. Quit worrying about him and letskeep him off the list as him and what he is doing isn't worth the trouble.Bret from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 20 10:18:28 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:18:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Georgechat Kirk,Definitely a different "george". George Maurer is on the side of the goodguys. Give him a shot.Harry Boyd "Brownlee, Kirk" wrote: Who is this George? are we talking about G. Maurer? I was thinkingabouttaking his rod building classis it worth doing so? Thanks,Kirk from dickay@alltel.net Wed Oct 20 10:20:36 1999 KAA14867; Subject: Re: Georgechat Kirk,We are talking about George Gehrke. George has repackaged Albolene andcalls it "Gink" and sells it as a dry fly dressing. He has "invented" othergreat stuff for outdoorsmen and sells it as the "World's GreatestWhatever".To find out about Uncle George go to www.gink.com. Look up "Bastard FlyRods" and read all about it. No connection yadda, yadda, yadda.....Dick Fuhrmandickay@alltel.net from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 20 10:20:42 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:20:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Node question --------------37223C5CAC09CF8CE9CF0223 George,Pressing is done in a vise. Cane is heated, then pressed tostraighten, and/or flatten. Most of the modern rodmaking books -Cattanach - Howells - Maurer - Gould - have good discussions. Ratherthan go into depth here, you might get a good introduction by looking atone or more of those. Harry "George M. Aldrich" wrote: This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning form, or afixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I have never made arod, but am seriously gathering data about doing so. I have been underthe impression that the nodes were worked down, before splitting to apiece that was ready for planning. GMA ----- Original Message -----From: Harry Boyd Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:58 AMSubject: Node questionFriends,After having built a few rods, I have finally figuredout that oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building is that notevery node> looks identical in the finished rod. Some are darker,somelighter.Some even have a little enamel at the corners. I can dealwith thoseproblems through taking a little more care in filing thenodes beforeflaming.One thing that becomes evident on really looking atthe nodes isthat even after flattening and straightening with heat, thesurface ofthe enamel just before and just after some nodes isirregularly shaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I could show you injust a fewseconds. Just above and below the node, there seems to bemorecurvature to the enamel side of the strip, from side toside, not fromtip to butt. This ascii picture might help | || | |||||||| ( Node)||||| | | | I don't have any trouble getting the node straight, orflat, but inorder to get the bamboo level from side to side, I seem tohave to sandaway quite a bit of the power fibers at the node and in thecenter ofthe strip just above and below the node. Doing so makes thenode looknot one inch long, but more like one and three- quarters ofan inch. Got any suggestions? (Other than going nodeless)My immediate until I getall the way through the process to the point of removingenamel justbefore final planing. thanks in advance, Harry --------------37223C5CAC09CF8CE9CF0223 George, rodmakingbooks - Cattanach - Howells - Maurer - Gould - have good Rather than go into depth here, you might get a good introduction bylookingat one or more of those. "George M. Aldrich" wrote: This pressing is interesting.Is it done in a planning form, or a fixture ? Is it already planned, orraw stock ? I have never made a rod, but am seriously gathering data aboutdoing so. I have been under the impression that the nodes were workeddown,before splitting to a piece that was ready for ----- Original Message ----- From:HarryBoyd Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 199911:58AM Subject: Node question figuredout that oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building is that not every node lighter. thoseproblems through taking a little more care in filing the nodes beforeflaming. reallylooking at the nodes isthat even after flattening and straightening with heat, the surfaceofthe enamel just before and just after some nodes is irregularlyshaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I could show you in just a few curvature to the enamel side of the strip, from side to side, not from here....|||| |||| or flat, but inorder to get the bamboo level from side to side, I seem to have tosandaway quite a bit of the power fibers at the node and in the centerof nodelooknot one inch long, but more like one and three-quarters of an inch. getall the way through the process to the point of removing enamel justbefore final planing. --------------37223C5CAC09CF8CE9CF0223-- from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 11:15:59 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:21:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Rough Planning Forms John, You can make your roughing forms out of any decent wood (includingpine!). Of course the better the wood, the more durable they will beand the longer they will last, but you shouldn't really plane down tothe surface of the form so they don't have to be really 'hard'. Theroughing form is simply used to hold the cane strip at the appropriateangle so that when you plane flat (parallel to the top of the form) youwill end up with a 60/60/60 triangle cross sectional strip. In order to accomplish this I use two forms. One has a 90 degree groovein it. The other has a 60 degree groove in it. Wayne Cattanachspecifies an 87 degree form which is theoretically more accurate basedon the average diameter of a culm of cane and split to 12 even strips. But I find 90 degrees quite close enough. To make the forms simply takea few four foot sections of 1x2 or any scrap wood and cut angles them tomake the following: (I hope my ASCII art comes out well on this NetscapeMail format) 1. cut a 30* angle about 3/16 to 1/4 inch deep on one board2. cut a 60* angle about 3/16 to 1/4 inch deep on the other board. Youhave to orient the strip differently when you run it on the table saw,but you can use the same 30* blade angle set up. Now fasten the two boards together to look something like the drawingbelow. Of course, the one angle is 30* and the other is 60* to make a90*. But the 90* angle should not be symetrical - do not make with a45/45 angle cut!! The angle should be tilted to one side more than theother. __ __|30\ /60|| | / | |___| |___| Now fasten the two together This form is to be used for only ONE SIDE of the strip and is used tomake the initial 60* angle for one side of the strip. Place the enamelside against the 60* cut side so that the pith side of the strip isexposed more to the plane. Cut the strip in this position only. DO NOTFLIP the strip in this form. 3. Make the 60* roughing form the same way only cut two 30* angles tomake the symetrical 60*. Place the strip so that the enamel side and the side you just cut in the90* form is down in the groove as well. This will expose the uncut sideup. Plane the strip parallel to the form to make the other 60* cut. You can flip the strip a few times and plane paralell to the form toensure a good 60* rough, untapered strip. Do not make the forms to deep. I don't think you should go more than1/4" and 3/16" would be better. If you do make the forms a little toodeep you can always shave some off the top of the completed forms. Also, you don't have to make a perfect point on the pith side. If yourforms are too deep to plane down to a perfect point on the pith side,just establish true 60* sides and you can reduce them on the final form. Is this more than you wanted to know? Rick C.John Collier wrote: Thanks to all for the input on the final planning forms. I'm new to rodbuilding and trying to get all my equipment set up. What is the bestmethod bestmaterial, but what is the best construction method? Thank Again John Collier from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 20 11:24:09 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:22:35 +0800 Subject: Re: microsoft rubbish I just got the latest download from AVP and ran a scan, nothing. Tony At 06:28 AM 10/20/99 -0600, Jack Dale wrote:Tony,That sounds mighty like a virus. Did you check it out?Jack Dale Tony Young wrote: To anybody on the list that received some Microsoft rubbish from me.I got this emailed to me but didn't delete it but kept it to read later. Assoon as I sent a message I meant to send the MS related email launcheditself and started sending itself off to everybody on the cc list.I killed it off like a mad dog as soon as I saw this happening but somepeople will have had it sent to them. Sorry.Delete it on sight with extreme prejudice. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Wed Oct 20 11:34:21 1999 9:39:51 PDT Subject: RE: Improving accuracy Darin, If you locate an object of a known diameter and measure it with your micrometer, that would determine whether you damaged it when it was dropped. Also, find someone with an un-dropped micormeter and take a reading on the same object and compare measurements. I dropped a dial caliper on a concrete floor, and it definitely ruined it. The jaws closed fine and the instrument looked fine, but the reading was altered by about .020". Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 11:38:00 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:43:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Improving accuracy Aren't these calibrate-able? If it is off a consistent .020, you couldjust reset the dial, right? Rick C. CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Darin, If you locate an object of a known diameter and measure it with yourmicrometer, that would determine whether you damaged it when it wasdropped. Also, find someone with an un-dropped micormeter and take areading on the same object and compare measurements. I dropped a dialcaliper on a concrete floor, and it definitely ruined it. The jaws closedfine and the instrument looked fine, but the reading was altered by about.020". Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from chris@artistree.com Wed Oct 20 13:22:03 1999 [205.134.240.71] (may beforged)) Subject: Re: Muddy waters or cherry wine? It pains me to admit it but with the amount of trash in that stream Iwouldn't be surprised if the watermelon rind worked quite well.-- Regards, Chris Wohlfordemail: chris@artistree.com Chris, So, in the toss-up, you're going for the watermelon rind, I take it? This is not a pretty sight... . cheers, Bill from amcsmith@nlis.net Wed Oct 20 14:06:36 1999 0400 Subject: rough forms rick,to do 87 degree forms would you ajust the 60 degree orthe 30 degree angle chris smith ps great post! from anglport@con2.com Wed Oct 20 14:53:18 1999 Subject: Re: Node question Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried to flattencanebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw- up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with the rindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way to avoidtroublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let's saythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest of thestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the vise enamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while you heatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helps ifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node area thesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straight andflat.John from ballard@orion.wes.army.mil Wed Oct 20 15:12:20 1999 (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Node question Now I'm confused (it happens more often than I'd like to admit),I thought Harry's original post was: (summarized)How does one get all the finished nodes to look identical?This meaning appearance and actual length. -Jerry Ballard from dellc@nextdim.com Wed Oct 20 15:59:02 1999 Subject: Re: Node question I have found that if the pith is left on as a cushion when pressing the =nodes that the result is a much flatter surface at the nodes.DellDell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the Quilterhttp://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail dellc@nextdim.comflyfisher@nextdim.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:24 PMSubject: Re: Node question This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning form, or a =fixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I have never made a rod, =but am seriously gathering data about doing so. I have been under the =impression that the nodes were worked down, before splitting to a piece =that was ready for planning. GMA Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:58 AMSubject: Node question Friends,After having built a few rods, I have finally figured out that =oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building is that not every nodelooks identical in the finished rod. Some are darker, some lighter.Some even have a little enamel at the corners. I can deal with =thoseproblems through taking a little more care in filing the nodes =beforeflaming.One thing that becomes evident on really looking at the nodes =isthat even after flattening and straightening with heat, the surface =ofthe enamel just before and just after some nodes is irregularly =shaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I could show you in just a =fewseconds. Just above and below the node, there seems to be morecurvature to the enamel side of the strip, from side to side, not =fromtip to butt. This ascii picture might help | || | I have found that if the pith is left on as a = nodes.DellDell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the flyfisher@nextdim.com ----- Original Message ----- George M. = = Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999= PMSubject: Re: Node =question This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning = fixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I have never made a = am seriously gathering data about doing so. I have been under the = that the nodes were worked down, before splitting to a piece that was = GMA ----- Original Message ----- = Sent: Tuesday, October 19, = AMSubject: Node question I have finally figured out that oneof the trouble spots in the = = evident on really looking at the nodes isthat even after = straightening with heat, the surface ofthe enamel just before = after some nodes is irregularly shaped.This is hard to describe = below the node, there seems to be morecurvature to the enamel = straight, or flat, but inorder to get the bamboo level from side = side, I seem to have to sandaway quite a bit of the power fibers = node and in the center ofthe strip just above and below the = Doing so makes the node looknot one inch long, but more like one = three-quarters of an = immediateidea is to reject those strips, but I can't see the = until I getall the way through the process to the point of = Harry from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 16:09:27 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:15:04 -0500 Subject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms Yes, Chris, you would just make the 60* cut into a 57* cut. NOTE: I made a misstatement on the original post. You place the enamelside on the 30* cut of the first roughing form NOT the 60* side. Onceyou make the forms and start to rough a strip out, you will soon findout the difference. Rick C. chris & annmarie smith wrote: rick,to do 87 degree forms would you ajust the 60 degree orthe 30 degree angle chris smith ps great post! from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 20 16:47:51 1999 Subject: Re: Improving accuracy there is a small window on the underside of a dial caliper and is visiblewhenyou remove the dial locking screw. You can stick a small rod into thisaperture and lock the dial on any zero up the scale and then close the jaws.That is if you have a Mitutoyo CHRISTOPHER C MCDOWELL wrote: Darin, If you locate an object of a known diameter and measure it with yourmicrometer, that would determine whether you damaged it when it wasdropped. Also, find someone with an un-dropped micormeter and take areading on the same object and compare measurements. I dropped a dialcaliper on a concrete floor, and it definitely ruined it. The jaws closedfine and the instrument looked fine, but the reading was altered by about.020". Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Oct 20 17:19:59 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:19:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do. Nowthat youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried to flattencanebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw- up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with the rindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way to avoidtroublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let's saythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest ofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while youheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helps ifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node areathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straight andflat.John from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Oct 20 18:34:57 1999 Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press George has upset many rodmakers with his attacks on the high price ofcustom cane rods and his rhetoric about how he will revolutionizerodmaking.All the rodmakers I know started off making rods and honing their skillsin a very private way. It was dealers or tackle shops that advised theamateur that his rods were good enough to sell. George on the other handdid the opposite, he was selling rods before he could even split a culm.I am not scared, but it is scary, lets face it. Remember that thepunters that will buy his rods will be newbies to cane and looking attheir first cane rod. A dyed in the wool cane fisherman would not acceptglobbed epoxy on their wraps and loose ferrules.There are a couple of e-mail kicking around this list from guys that hadpurchased bastards and their reviews of the rods.Cane rods have to look good, it is part of the tradition. In factcosmetics are more important to many anglers. If pure performance wasthe object of the game then most anglers, if they were honest,wouldpurchase a gray one!Do rodmakers need press? most established rodmakers have more thanenough work and are back ordered. In a telephone conversation with a guyduring the summer he mentioned that J. Zimny was quoting an 18 monthwait for a rod. I do not think John needs to to be any more famous doyou?Mr. Gehrke is selling rods that really should be given away or stuck ina corner to be looked at in amusement at a later date. We all do that.A few months back when I first got to follow George's daily trials andtribulations I really supported him against most of the list. I havechanged my mind since stories from those who worked for nothing in theearly days to help with a concept and their subsequent treatment whengeorge discovered rodmaking was not that easy.I have a little surprise for George, all tubed up and ready to go- afinished milled strip 3ft 8 in long, machined (not planed) to .032 thecomplete strip! including 3 nodes that went under the cutters. No burrsor digs, very accurate and made from a sawed strip. I have been foolingaround with a beveller for the last couple of years with a fair amountof success but I felt there could be improvements. The tiny strip wasthe acid test and if I could make it then a taper from .1 to .032 wouldbe easy. Most bevellers cannot handle fine tips, even for the last 6 ins I know George is struggling with his beveller so it will give himsomething to think about.George will certainly get better with every rod he makes and he willthen be able to charge more, but of course he will not because he isdedicated to bringing rods to the working man! The average working manmust be earning more per hour than George and his rodmaking endeavors.Terry SueK wrote: Terry wrote : George scares the list.At the moment he is making junk and he knows bugger all, but.... Well not being around this RodM. list long, I have read enoughposts re Mr. G and his rods and I do NOT pick up 'scared' atall. I would say instead perhaps "rankled" or "annoyed", butnot scared. I don't know ANY scared flyfishermen, and that would transferover to cane builders. Respectively disagree on the scared part. I will say this, Mr. G. surely does get alot of press. On allnet fronts. Right now the general flyfishing listserv, FLYFISH@is talking about him and his rods. A well known flyfisher outof Idaho, Dave Engerbretson has had occasion to cast his rod andposted a rather nice 'review' of it. Dave of course has builtcane in his day too :-) Whether the press for Mr. G's rods is good or bad, he IS gettingit. All Americans know this too well, ANY press is in fact 'good'if you are trying to sell a product. If any of you that are not on the FLYFISH@ want to see Dave E'sreview, let me know and I'll forward in private email. cheers,sue from jf_gray@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 20 19:08:56 1999 Subject: Had enough of the GG shpeel already. It sounds to me like George is trying to be the new Montague. Producingan affordable cane rod with quality that matches the price. Good forhim. I don't want to hear any more about it. I am more interested inlearning the old school methods, not buying a cheap production. Postsabout him belong somewhere else (where he can get the publicity ofpeople interested in buying his products, not on a list for makers ofrods. I subscribed to this list to learn more about how to build themthe right way, not to exchange barbs (I prefer my barbs smashed). from Grhghlndr@aol.com Wed Oct 20 19:16:11 1999 Subject: Re: Had enough of the GG shpeel already. THE NEXT PERSON WHO BRINGS GG UP ON THE LIST I AM GOING TO SHOOT INTHE HEAD. ENOUGH ALREADY QUIT WORRYING ABOUT HIM. AND YES I AM YELLING. BRET from darrell@rockclimbing.org Wed Oct 20 19:20:22 1999 sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press... new topic... T&T tour During my visit to T&T, I had the pleasure to meet the rodbuilder ToryJaques, a very nice young man who has worked there for about 8 years. Ialsomet all the people there... A fine group of people one and all. Tom Dorseywas not there but I met his daughter Erika. I was introduced to all thepeople working there including the rod wrappers, the head rodwrapper whoalso does all the lettering, the finishing crew, the shippers and Tory and Iwas fortunate to chat with Tory for a couple hours... (don't tell theboss...) Anyway, he gave me the deluxe tour and showed me the operationsandworkshop... he first uses the old Montague beveler to cut the rough stripsand then uses Montague mill for the finished strips... in eight years, he'snever used a planing form. He's able to rough and finish 200 stips in a day!He also hand makes his own reel seats and the hardware for the seats. Ididn't inquire about the ferrules so I don't know whether he makes themtoo... They are on a 18 month waiting list and even with all that machinery, Torysays he's happy if he can finish 50-60 rods per year. He doesn't do thewrapping or varnishing... he basically builds the blank, makes or sets theferrules, builds the reelseat and grip and then it goes to the otherdepartments for the rest of the work. Tom Dorsey is the rod designer...dictating the rod taper, length and specifications and Tory builds it. They are just about out of the pre-embargo cane and had just gotten abatchof cane so they will be using the same stuff as everyone... Dorsey isworking on a new mill (so far over 2 years) but it's not operational yet.The only request they denied was they wouldn't let me take any pics of theworkshop or equipment... DRATS! It was very professional, organized andSPACIOUS!!! Droooooll. I found the everyon in company to be super friendly and helpful... I hadbeen dragging around with me about 12-14 rods on my rodbuying trip andtheyeven offered to ship them for me (to myself) for no charge excepting thecost of shipping... I wasn't finished looking for rods at that time so Ideclined the kind offer but it goes to show what terrific people they are. Imean, I walked in off the street without an appointment or any notice andIknew nobody there and by the time I left, it felt as though I was sayinggoodbye to friends... They are planning to relocate shortly but the buildingthey currently occupy is really neat! BTW, their rods start at about $1,500 and I saw one rod that was beingbuiltand the cost was about $2,500... and it was the fifth rod of a five rodorder for one customer... Amazing! Their location is in Turner Falls but I thought it was Montague City... Iknow their address is Turner Falls so I was a bit confused... All in all a worthwhile diversion to escape the rain from Hurricane Lloyd... Cheers, Darrell Leewww.bamboorods.homepage.com I mention this experience as to the mill and the 18 months waiting list...sorry for the thesis... -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press George has upset many rodmakers with his attacks on the high price ofcustom cane rods and his rhetoric about how he will revolutionizerodmaking.All the rodmakers I know started off making rods and honing their skillsin a very private way. It was dealers or tackle shops that advised theamateur that his rods were good enough to sell. George on the other handdid the opposite, he was selling rods before he could even split a culm.I am not scared, but it is scary, lets face it. Remember that thepunters that will buy his rods will be newbies to cane and looking attheir first cane rod. A dyed in the wool cane fisherman would not acceptglobbed epoxy on their wraps and loose ferrules.There are a couple of e-mail kicking around this list from guys that hadpurchased bastards and their reviews of the rods.Cane rods have to look good, it is part of the tradition. In factcosmetics are more important to many anglers. If pure performance wasthe object of the game then most anglers, if they were honest,wouldpurchase a gray one!Do rodmakers need press? most established rodmakers have more thanenough work and are back ordered. In a telephone conversation with a guyduring the summer he mentioned that J. Zimny was quoting an 18 monthwait for a rod. I do not think John needs to to be any more famous doyou?Mr. Gehrke is selling rods that really should be given away or stuck ina corner to be looked at in amusement at a later date. We all do that.A few months back when I first got to follow George's daily trials andtribulations I really supported him against most of the list. I havechanged my mind since stories from those who worked for nothing in theearly days to help with a concept and their subsequent treatment whengeorge discovered rodmaking was not that easy.I have a little surprise for George, all tubed up and ready to go- afinished milled strip 3ft 8 in long, machined (not planed) to .032 thecomplete strip! including 3 nodes that went under the cutters. No burrsor digs, very accurate and made from a sawed strip. I have been foolingaround with a beveller for the last couple of years with a fair amountof success but I felt there could be improvements. The tiny strip wasthe acid test and if I could make it then a taper from .1 to .032 wouldbe easy. Most bevellers cannot handle fine tips, even for the last 6 ins I know George is struggling with his beveller so it will give himsomething to think about.George will certainly get better with every rod he makes and he willthen be able to charge more, but of course he will not because he isdedicated to bringing rods to the working man! The average working manmust be earning more per hour than George and his rodmaking endeavors.Terry SueK wrote: Terry wrote : George scares the list.At the moment he is making junk and he knows bugger all, but.... Well not being around this RodM. list long, I have read enoughposts re Mr. G and his rods and I do NOT pick up 'scared' atall. I would say instead perhaps "rankled" or "annoyed", butnot scared. I don't know ANY scared flyfishermen, and that would transferover to cane builders. Respectively disagree on the scared part. I will say this, Mr. G. surely does get alot of press. On allnet fronts. Right now the general flyfishing listserv, FLYFISH@is talking about him and his rods. A well known flyfisher outof Idaho, Dave Engerbretson has had occasion to cast his rod andposted a rather nice 'review' of it. Dave of course has builtcane in his day too :-) Whether the press for Mr. G's rods is good or bad, he IS gettingit. All Americans know this too well, ANY press is in fact 'good'if you are trying to sell a product. If any of you that are not on the FLYFISH@ want to see Dave E'sreview, let me know and I'll forward in private email. cheers,sue from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 20 19:27:06 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:26:00 -0500 Subject: Thanks Bret and Jeremy Thank you Bret and Jeremy... I don't know George from Adam, andpersonallydon't give a rats A$$ what he is building or what he is saying. Lets get onwith more constructive exchange and drop the criticizm of this guy. OK, we have a discussion going on about straightening and flattening nodeonhere... Lots of good questions... i think I'll re-read them and see if I cancome up with some good answers... Bob Bret wrote: THE NEXT PERSON WHO BRINGS GG UP ON THE LIST I AM GOING TO SHOOT INTHEHEAD. ENOUGH ALREADY QUIT WORRYING ABOUT HIM. AND YES I AM YELLING. BRET Jeremy Wrote: It sounds to me like George is trying to be the new Montague. Producingan affordable cane rod with quality that matches the price. Good forhim. I don't want to hear any more about it. I am more interested inlearning the old school methods, not buying a cheap production. Postsabout him belong somewhere else (where he can get the publicity ofpeople interested in buying his products, not on a list for makers ofrods. I subscribed to this list to learn more about how to build themthe right way, not to exchange barbs (I prefer my barbs smashed). from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 19:40:44 1999 Subject: All the GG stuff. Hey guys, from all I've heard about those rods, it sounds like I made'em!! Mike the chopstick maker from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 20 19:41:16 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:40:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Node question Harry, That is one thing I always do is undercut, or file a slightdepression on the pith side of the node, However, before I do the nodeflattening, I re-file the enamel side of the splits... OK... I didn't evenunderstand what I wrote so let me rephrase... I file the nodes slightlybefore I do anything to the whole culm. Just enough to "smoothe out" theridge on the node a bit. Then I do my splits and straighten all thesplits... after straightening, I file a slight dip opposite the node, butonly a VERY slight one, then I flatten... sometimes I straighten and flattena strip twice or even three times before I am convinced that it belongs inmy forms. Sure it is time consuming, but it takes me anywhere from 40hoursand up of hand work to complete a rod anyways... so why worry about a fewmore minutes (hours).Another thing I tried, that works well is wetting the strips forstraightening, but I had a hard time getting them as dry as I wanted themlater. As I am sure we all know, a strip can gain a lot of weight inmoisture it gets out of the air alone, and I was never satisfied that I wasgetting all the moisture from "soaking" the strips, back out of them. Iknow a lot of people do this and it is an accepted practice, but it is justeasier for me to work them dry. Either that or I am just too stubborn tochange my ways! LOLAny of you out there that use a "wet" method? Post your procedure andtell us the benefits and reasoning. It would be very interesting to know! Bob Nunley -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do.Now that youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried toflatten canebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw-up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with therindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way toavoid troublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let'ssaythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest ofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while youheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helpsifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node areathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straightandflat.John from mschaffer@mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 19:50:49 1999 Subject: A for real question about flaming rods Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rod approach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into strips comparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 20 19:51:45 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:50:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Node question Another little trick, I guess most already do this... I use softrefrigerator magnet material cut into small pieces in my machinists vice. Iput one piece where the enamel side of the node will contact the vice, andtwo pieces on either side of the node where the pith side of the strip willcontact the vice face. Basically, when I straighten and flatten, I tend togo a little past "straight and flat" and let the strip "relax" back to thestraight position. It takes a few trial runs to get this method down andknow how far to go, but it really does work well... Later,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Node question Harry, That is one thing I always do is undercut, or file a slightdepression on the pith side of the node, However, before I do the nodeflattening, I re-file the enamel side of the splits... OK... I didn't evenunderstand what I wrote so let me rephrase... I file the nodes slightlybefore I do anything to the whole culm. Just enough to "smoothe out" theridge on the node a bit. Then I do my splits and straighten all thesplits... after straightening, I file a slight dip opposite the node, butonly a VERY slight one, then I flatten... sometimes I straighten andflattena strip twice or even three times before I am convinced that it belongs inmy forms. Sure it is time consuming, but it takes me anywhere from 40hoursand up of hand work to complete a rod anyways... so why worry about afewmore minutes (hours).Another thing I tried, that works well is wetting the strips forstraightening, but I had a hard time getting them as dry as I wanted themlater. As I am sure we all know, a strip can gain a lot of weight inmoisture it gets out of the air alone, and I was never satisfied that I wasgetting all the moisture from "soaking" the strips, back out of them. Iknow a lot of people do this and it is an accepted practice, but it is justeasier for me to work them dry. Either that or I am just too stubborn tochange my ways! LOLAny of you out there that use a "wet" method? Post your procedure andtell us the benefits and reasoning. It would be very interesting to know! Bob Nunley -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 5:24 PMSubject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do.Now that youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried toflatten canebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw-up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with therind>>> side. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll neverhappenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way toavoid troublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let'ssaythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest ofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press themstraight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while youheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helpsifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node areathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straightandflat.John from HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 20 20:01:06 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:00:31 +0000 Subject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms I don't mean to stir up the mud, but... Didn't Tom Smithwick havesomething to say about first angle forms and that they are almostunnecessary? Am I all wet on this? I'd like to hear more. If Iremember correctly he said to go with the regular 60Ÿ roughing form andthat it saves a lot of time. Tom, are you out there?? If I gouge them up I just draw file them until they're flat again. Dennis Rick C. wrote: Yes, Chris, you would just make the 60* cut into a 57* cut. NOTE: I made a misstatement on the original post. You place the enamelside on the 30* cut of the first roughing form NOT the 60* side. Onceyou make the forms and start to rough a strip out, you will soon findout the difference. Rick C. chris & annmarie smith wrote: rick,to do 87 degree forms would you ajust the 60 degree orthe 30 degree angle chris smith ps great post! from rmoon@ida.net Wed Oct 20 20:29:16 1999 0000 Subject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms Dennis I have never felt the need for a special form for rough planing. Once Iget the strip cleaned up and straight I go directly to a 60 degreeform. admittedly my first form has a much deeper groove (adjustable)than my finishing forms, but I find that all that is necessary is to geta rough approximation of an equilateral triangle, then start taking longshaving off each side. I usually rotate after two passes with the planeuntil I am nearing the top of the form then it is turn the strip aftereach pass Needless to say you have to look at the strip and makeadjustments. I think you are right that Tom S does the same thing and I am sure thatthere are a lot of others out there who do not use a special roughingform. Ralph from d_price@global2000.net Wed Oct 20 20:43:55 1999 VAA02041; amcsmith@nlis.net,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms Ralph W Moon wrote: Dennis I have never felt the need for a special form for rough planing. Once Iget the strip cleaned up and straight I go directly to a 60 degreeform. admittedly my first form has a much deeper groove (adjustable)than my finishing forms, but I find that all that is necessary is to geta rough approximation of an equilateral triangle, then start taking longshaving off each side. I usually rotate after two passes with the planeuntil I am nearing the top of the form then it is turn the strip aftereach pass Needless to say you have to look at the strip and makeadjustments. I think you are right that Tom S does the same thing and I am sure thatthere are a lot of others out there who do not use a special roughingform. RalphRight on Ralph, Has my vote( I alternate every pass and use thefinishing forms,starting at the bottom and finishing at the top endwhere my taper is set)Vern from ROBERT.KOPE@prodigy.net Wed Oct 20 20:49:58 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:49:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Node question before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplish this Iuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knocking thediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run the strips overthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of wood that Iclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inch diametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. Then I pullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum and theenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side of thenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do.Now that youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried toflatten canebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw-up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with therindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way toavoid troublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let'ssaythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest ofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while youheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helpsifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node areathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straightandflat.John from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Oct 20 21:11:36 1999 Subject: Re: Node question I plane the pith side flat before I straighten and press nodes and I don't have problems, but this is only my second rod from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:18:04 1999 0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Node question] --------------28FF5BE67ABD This was meant to go out to the entire list. Sorry Dell. Rick C. --------------28FF5BE67ABD Subject: Re: Node question I wish I could remember who to credit the following idea to (it came from this list). AFTER filing the nodes a reasonable amount, splittingand straightening, when I have a strip with serious dip(s) on eitherside of the node, I sand the pith to an even thickness measured fromenamel to pith. I put a rough textured Black & Decker round sanding bit(5/8" I think) in my drill press and clamp a 3/4"x4"x4" board with a3/16" steel dowel pin in it on to the drill press table. Then I adjustthe pin so that it is, say, 1/4" or 3/16" from the outside surface ofthe sanding bit. Then I push the strip, enamel side to the dowel pininto the bit/dowel pin and grind the pith down to fit through the gap. The enamel surface follows the pin and this gives me an even thicknessthroughout the strip. Flattening is now much more even and easier tomake the strip come out actually FLAT. Rick C. Dell wrote: I have found that if the pith is left on as a cushion when pressingthe nodes that the result is a much flatter surface at the nodes.DellDell & Marie CoppockThe Flyfisher& the Quilterhttp://www.trwebsites.com/dell/e-mail dellc@nextdim.comflyfisher@nextdim.com ----- Original Message -----From: George M. Aldrich Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:24 PMSubject: Re: Node question This pressing is interesting. Is it done in a planning form,or a fixture ? Is it already planned, or raw stock ? I havenever made a rod, but am seriously gathering data aboutdoing so. I have been under the impression that the nodeswere worked down, before splitting to a piece that was ready GMA ----- Original Message -----From: Harry Boyd Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 11:58 AMSubject: Node question Friends,After having built a few rods, I have finallyfigured out that oneof the trouble spots in the rods I'm building isthat not every nodelooks identical in the finished rod. Some aredarker, some lighter.Some even have a little enamel at the corners. Ican deal with thoseproblems through taking a little more care infiling the nodes beforeflaming.One thing that becomes evident on reallylooking at the nodes isthat even after flattening and straightening withheat, the surface ofthe enamel just before and just after some nodesis irregularly shaped.This is hard to describe in words, but I couldshow you in just a fewseconds. Just above and below the node, thereseems to be morecurvature to the enamel side of the strip, fromside to side, not fromtip to butt. This ascii picture might help | || | here....|||||||| ( Node)||||| | | | I don't have any trouble getting the nodestraight, or flat, but inorder to get the bamboo level from side to side, Iseem to have to sandaway quite a bit of the power fibers at the nodeand in the center ofthe strip just above and below the node. Doing somakes the node looknot one inch long, but more like one andthree- quarters of an inch. Got any suggestions? (Other than goingnodeless) My immediate the problem until I getall the way through the process to the point ofremoving enamel justbefore final planing. thanks in advance, Harry --------------28FF5BE67ABD-- from channer@hubwest.com Wed Oct 20 21:20:31 1999 Subject: Re: Node question At 06:46 PM 10/20/1999 -0700, ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplish this Iuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knocking thediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run the stripsoverthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of wood that Iclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inch diametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. Then Ipullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum and theenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side of thenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope Robert;Geez, and here I thought that i invented this technique. I guess thereis nothing new under the sun after all. John from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Oct 20 21:22:12 1999 Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press Terry,You are right, the average working man will get a very bad taste in his mouth for bamboo if these were his or her first cane rod. He should have waited until he could produce a fairly good product from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:29:07 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Node question Robert, I'm glad you chimed in. I'm sure I got my set up from your suggestionmonths ago. I will attest to the fact that this works. It is a bit oftrouble to do all strips though, so I only use it on culms that haveparticularly troublesome dips on one side of the node or other. A word of caution. I PUSH my strips through the jig set up. And onewould be well advised to wear leather gloves especially if pulling thestrip through. If the sanding drum grabs the strip, the sliding stripcan cut your fingers like a razor. Rick C.ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplish this Iuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knocking thediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run the stripsoverthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of wood thatIclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inchdiametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. Then Ipullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum and theenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side of thenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:27 PMSubject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do.Now that youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried toflatten canebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw-up! Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with therindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way toavoid troublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let'ssaythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessively curved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the rest ofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws while youheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helpsifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the node areathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straightandflat.John from mrj@aa.net Wed Oct 20 21:35:31 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:30:24 -0700 Subject: RE: A for real question about flaming rods Is the pith side of the culm darker? If it is then you could have overflamed it. from the sounds of it though, it doesn't sound like it. While Iflame my culm I really am tempering the bamboo. I run it over the flamefor10 minutes or so and it gradually turns darker. When I flame for themottledappearance I flame with just a hand held propane torch and I flame to achocolate brown. It really flames this dark quickly. When you are doneplaning you will remove some of the color as you plane just the surface ofthe rind off. This will lighten the color so you want to flame a little toodark to start with. Pretty much I think that you have to try a piece and seehow it turns out and adjust accordingly. You know, there are just somethings that you need to try out in order to see how it works. Martin Jensen -----Original Message----- Subject: A for real question about flaming rods Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rod approach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into strips comparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:36:03 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:41:36 -0500 Subject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms Dennis et.al., I have used only the final forms to get the sixty degree angles when Ihave split a strip so close to final that it was too shallow to use onmy roughing forms. You can do a fine job just by flipping the strip. However, for speed and for ease, the roughing form is the way to go. You can hog off cane without all the flipping and get extremely close ifnot dead on 60/60/60 strips. And afterall, the roughing forms are soeasy to make and cheap to boot, that not having a set seems like morehassle than making them. Plus, it looks good to the uninitiated to haveall these different forms and tools. They would be less impressed ifyou told them you could make a fine cane rod with a knife, a planingform and a single plane. The rest is extraneous. Rick Rick C. Dennis Haftel wrote: I don't mean to stir up the mud, but... Didn't Tom Smithwick havesomething to say about first angle forms and that they are almostunnecessary? Am I all wet on this? I'd like to hear more. If Iremember correctly he said to go with the regular 60Ÿ roughing form andthat it saves a lot of time. Tom, are you out there?? If I gouge them up I just draw file them until they're flat again. Dennis Rick C. wrote: Yes, Chris, you would just make the 60* cut into a 57* cut. NOTE: I made a misstatement on the original post. You place theenamelside on the 30* cut of the first roughing form NOT the 60* side. Onceyou make the forms and start to rough a strip out, you will soon findout the difference. Rick C. chris & annmarie smith wrote: rick,to do 87 degree forms would you ajust the 60 degree orthe 30 degree angle chris smith ps great post! from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Oct 20 21:36:17 1999 Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu I am sorry the message was meant for Terry only.On the other hand if you don't want to read it hit the key that has delete written on itThanksJoe from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:38:16 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:43:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Node question That's the way to approach rodmaking!! You will come across problemssoon enough without worrying about those you don't have or don't KNOWyou have! The fish don't care. Rick Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: I plane the pith side flat before I straighten and press nodes and I don'thave problems, but this is only my second rod from richjez@enteract.com Wed Oct 20 21:40:21 1999 Subject: Re: 60 deg rough router Al,I am making a copy of your beveler. How deep is the V grove in the wood that the cane rides in? I have 5/8" and that seems way too deep.ThanksRich Jezioro At 10:38 PM 7/16/98 -0400, you wrote:To those interested in my beveler, I am currently drawing updated plans.I will send them to Chris to be posted as soon as possible. In themeantime, if you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Iwill be willing to help anyone that I can. Chris, please feel free to post whatever pictures you have. Good luckAl *________________________________)// Rich Jezioro@ /||/______/_||_________________________________________||/\/ \ > > from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:42:46 1999 Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:48:27 -0500 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Sounds good to me. My first rod was DARK! But not as dark as some Isaw later at the SRG. I would test an extra strip or cut off piece justto be sure, but I bet it is OK. I think overcooking in the oven is morelikely to damage the cane, since flaming the cane is so quick comparedto leaving the cane in the oven. My darkly flamed 4 wt. Sir D handled amighty huge fish two weekends ago. (Even a blind pig can find an acornif he snoots around long enough!) Rick C. Mike Shaffer wrote: Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rodapproach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into strips comparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike from noblur@stic.net Wed Oct 20 21:42:47 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:42:41 -0500 Subject: Fw: The guy who gets all the press Subject: Re: The guy who gets all the press Paul Young, once told me that he had one son, who had, "bamboo in his =blood" ! Not all of us will ever approach being a master at such things. =Still, that doesn't detract from the pleasure, and the striving to make =the best rod we can ! Who can ask for anything more, than doing the best =than one can ? GMA Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:20 PMSubject: Re: The guy who gets all the press Terry,You are right, the average working man will get a very bad taste = mouth for bamboo if these were his or her first cane rod. He should = waited until he could produce a fairly good product From:George M. =Aldrich Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:41 PMSubject: Re: The guy who gets all the press Paul Young, once told me that he had one son, who had, = his blood" ! Not all of us will ever approach being a master at such = Still, that doesn't detract from the pleasure, and the striving to make = rod we can ! Who can ask for anything more, than doing the best than one = ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- Eastkoyfly@aol.com = Sent: Wednesday, October 20, = PMSubject: Re: The guy who gets = press right, = average working man will get a very bad taste in his mouth for = these were his or her first cane rod. He should have waited until = produce a fairly good product from stpete@netten.net Wed Oct 20 21:59:08 1999 0500 Subject: Straight rods List, my apologies for so many recent posts. I have been very busyand/or traveling for the last few months. Seems I'm making up lost timetoday. One last post for awhile and then I'll shut up. I just cannot seem to make a straight rod. I've fastened the rodsections on the planing form after gluing, I've rolled, I've slapped,I've hung with 5 lb weights. Nothing seems to work well. I use Epon. The sections come out of the binder looking straight andpretty. I seem to mess them up handling them afterwards. Anyone haveanything to say about how I might best use any of the above techniques.What works for you? The rods fish great, but I'm frustrated. I've hita plateau here. Beware SRG99 attendees! This will be my big question. That andoperating a small lathe. Onis, I hope you can chat about ferrule makinga while on the 7x10 minilathe. Rick from bob@downandacross.com Wed Oct 20 22:07:31 1999 Subject: nodeless rods Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e., What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping, and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that it wasa good idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to split them into 24 pieces. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked on each piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged in the culm? 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have to admit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and rough shaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems to make the nodeless technique very appealing. Sorry, too many questions. Thanks in advance, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Wed Oct 20 22:30:19 1999 Subject: Re: Node question Rick,Why, should I not be planing the pith side flat? I don't want rod failure down the road !!!!! from caneman@clnk.com Wed Oct 20 22:50:34 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:49:29 -0500 Subject: Re: nodeless rods Bob,Nodeless isn't exactly my forte, but I have built a few of them. Let meanswer these ?'s one at a time.. 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e.,What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping,and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that itwas agood idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to splitthem into 24 pieces. If you are going to flame, flame before you split... I also heattreated the smallsections before I split them. I then split the culm sections,planed them allto identical dimensions (width and thickness), then worked themover inmy splicing block and glued them up. Many now are binding thesplices,but I use the hardware clamps (similar to clothespins) and nobindingand have never had any problem. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked oneach piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged inthe culm? Yes, I always marked the butt end of my pieces... actually, Imark both... buttend brown and tip white. I don't know that it would matter thatmuch sincepower fiber density is pretty consistent between nodes, but Ifigured it didn'thurt to do it just to be safe. As far as whether they should bespliced asoriginally arranged in the culm, in my opinion, if you aretalking about using thestrips from the butt end first, the second section second, andso forth, thenyes, I think they should be spliced in the same position theywould be in ifthey still had the nodes attaching them. I know one maker whogoes so far assplit a single long strip, say six feet, cut the nodes out, andmark the strips sothat he is using essentially, the exact same strip, just minusthe nodes. I don'tknow that this is necessary, since the fiber density will besimilar in almost anyacceptable for use strip from a given section of the culm, but Iwould stick withinsuring that I used all the butt section strips for the firstpiece of each strip...all the second section strips for the second section, and soforth. 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have toadmit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and roughshaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems tomake the nodeless technique very appealing. Bob, I think we are all nuts for building these things to beginwith, but so what!If it weren't for us nuts, the world would be pretty boring!*S* Beware, thenodeless rod is not an easy undertaking.. what time youwouldhave spentstraightening and flattening, will be consumed trying to makegood evenjoints in your splice, yet the nodeless does have an appeal allit's own... thefirst one I built, was just a "practice" run... one of mycustomers bought it,because he knew that nobody else in his group of "canies" hadone, andhe would be the first. Well, I hope that helps. and good luck! Try the binding though on thestrips. I can see where this would be a little easier than just usingclamps like I did. Bob-----Original Message----- Subject: nodeless rods Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e.,What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping,and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that itwas agood idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to splitthem into 24 pieces. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked oneach piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged inthe culm? 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have toadmit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and roughshaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems tomake the nodeless technique very appealing. Sorry, too many questions. Thanks in advance, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 20 23:18:59 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:18:30 +0800 Subject: Re: Had enough of the GG shpeel already. Brett, that pretty direct ;-) Tony At 08:15 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Grhghlndr@aol.com wrote:THE NEXT PERSON WHO BRINGS GG UP ON THE LIST I AM GOING TO SHOOT INTHE HEAD. ENOUGH ALREADY QUIT WORRYING ABOUT HIM. AND YES I AM YELLING. BRET /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from hsilver@pyx.net Wed Oct 20 23:19:53 1999 Subject: Advice sought. Goodevening,I am new to this list and bamboo flyrod making. In fact, I've never madea flyrod in my life. I'm considering two differing approaches to buildinga split bamboo flyrod. So I was wondering if other list members might advise me on the two approaches to this; EITHER;I know people who make and own split bamboo flyrods, and even thoughI'venever watched the full process, I figure simply knowing others who havedone it is sufficient knowledge to do things myself. Sorta like a spouseof a professional that claims to know all about that profession becausethey sleep with a professional. After all, big companies used to makebamboo rods on production lines. I figure I could knock out the bestbamboo flyrod around pretty fast. Maybe a couple of weeks. After all,bamboo schmamboo. I know machinery and metal shop work and I figure Icould build my own production line. You know, knock out fifty or a hundredof those bamboo puppies every six hours. Have a plant running 24 hours aday in say, three shifts. Start up a complete line of bamboo rods allmanufactured by robots so they'd be perfect. These bamboo flyrods wouldbethe best sons of bitches in the flyrod world. Hey wait ! That's it ! I'd call my line of flyrods, Son's Of Bitches. It wouldn't even matter if I didn't know a culm of Tonkin cane from aspruce two by four. After all that's what the public wants, right ?Knocked out bamboo rods at say, 250 bux apiece cold hard cash. I'd be richin no time. What the hell does the public know about a flyrod anyways andbesides, epoxy covers anything. No one would notice. I could make the bestrods in the world at that price and maybe even spam and get publicity from any and everything and get my name around. Good will and all thatauthentic handmade craftmanship of yesteryear is pure crap for loosers.What the hell did those old dead guys know anyways ? Who needs it?Thereare profits to be had today ! And its the bottom line that counts, right?Now one would know the difference. I could probably take over the bamboorod building world in six months. ! Why, my Son's Of Bitches would makeme famous! OR AS AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH Carefully listen, ask questions, read and do my very best to take this onestep at a time. Understand what it is I am trying to accomplish beforestarting and not simply make it up as I go along. Attempt to build oneflyrod that I will be pleased with. Perhaps consider after finishing and using my first flyrod, building a second flyrod down the road some timewhere I will be able to further master methods and techniques of splitbamboo flyrod building. But first and foremost, master the basics first, Understand I will be working with a natural material (ArundinariaAmabilus) that takes several years to get to a state before I can evenhandle it to start the process of flyrod building. At least attempt tounderstand the nature of this material and why it is the way it is. Aspecialized material of incredible natural strength that is never uniform,has varying tone and can behave quite differently when two seeminglyindentical pieces of it are placed in front of me. Learn to be fullycomfortable with my own tools and fully understand the methods beforeworking and above all, not to rush things. I don't rush while at a troutstream so I would rush while building a flyrod ? Being careful and beingpatient always pays off. The more time I spend carefully crafting a flyrodto suit myself from clear instructions that I fully understand along withsome knowledgable hands to guide and help me get over the rough spotsandusing proven techniques, the more likely I'll end up with a flyrod Ipersonally will be pleased with. A flyrod, that although is my first andmight well have some blemishes, will have given me a learningopportunityand pleasure in its making. It will have given me introduction into acraft I may wish to persue further with enjoyment being my primemotivator. Along the way, if I learn something that I can pass along toothers in my endevors, perhaps I can build goodwill and friendships thatwill help me when I need it. Which would you advise me to choose ? Rainbow trout mousse anyone ? :) Regards, Harley SilverVictus, libertas et possessio. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Wed Oct 20 23:23:19 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:22:39 +0800 Subject: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms I think it depends a bit on what shape the strip you're starting with is.If it's reasonably shapely you can dispense with the other forms and goright to the final form but if it's badly skewed on one side it's best togo throught the process of the initial forms. IMHO. Tony At 09:02 PM 10/20/99 -0700, Dennis Haftel wrote:I don't mean to stir up the mud, but... Didn't Tom Smithwick havesomething to say about first angle forms and that they are almostunnecessary? Am I all wet on this? I'd like to hear more. If Iremember correctly he said to go with the regular 60Ÿ roughing form andthat it saves a lot of time. Tom, are you out there?? If I gouge them up I just draw file them until they're flat again. Dennis Rick C. wrote: Yes, Chris, you would just make the 60* cut into a 57* cut. NOTE: I made a misstatement on the original post. You place the enamelside on the 30* cut of the first roughing form NOT the 60* side. Onceyou make the forms and start to rough a strip out, you will soon findout the difference. Rick C. chris & annmarie smith wrote: rick,to do 87 degree forms would you ajust the 60 degree orthe 30 degree angle chris smith ps great post! /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from darrell@rockclimbing.org Thu Oct 21 00:56:59 1999 sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: Re: Advice sought. Go for door number one... George did...-----Original Message----- Subject: Advice sought. Goodevening,I am new to this list and bamboo flyrod making. In fact, I've never madea flyrod in my life. I'm considering two differing approaches to buildinga split bamboo flyrod. So I was wondering if other list members might advise me on the two approaches to this; EITHER;I know people who make and own split bamboo flyrods, and even thoughI'venever watched the full process, I figure simply knowing others who havedone it is sufficient knowledge to do things myself. Sorta like a spouseof a professional that claims to know all about that profession becausethey sleep with a professional. After all, big companies used to makebamboo rods on production lines. I figure I could knock out the bestbamboo flyrod around pretty fast. Maybe a couple of weeks. After all,bamboo schmamboo. I know machinery and metal shop work and I figure Icould build my own production line. You know, knock out fifty or a hundredof those bamboo puppies every six hours. Have a plant running 24 hours aday in say, three shifts. Start up a complete line of bamboo rods allmanufactured by robots so they'd be perfect. These bamboo flyrods wouldbethe best sons of bitches in the flyrod world. Hey wait ! That's it ! I'd call my line of flyrods, Son's Of Bitches. It wouldn't even matter if I didn't know a culm of Tonkin cane from aspruce two by four. After all that's what the public wants, right ?Knocked out bamboo rods at say, 250 bux apiece cold hard cash. I'd be richin no time. What the hell does the public know about a flyrod anyways andbesides, epoxy covers anything. No one would notice. I could make thebestrods in the world at that price and maybe even spam and get publicity from any and everything and get my name around. Good will and all thatauthentic handmade craftmanship of yesteryear is pure crap for loosers.What the hell did those old dead guys know anyways ? Who needs it?Thereare profits to be had today ! And its the bottom line that counts, right?Now one would know the difference. I could probably take over thebamboorod building world in six months. ! Why, my Son's Of Bitches would makeme famous! OR AS AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH Carefully listen, ask questions, read and do my very best to take thisone>step at a time. Understand what it is I am trying to accomplish beforestarting and not simply make it up as I go along. Attempt to build oneflyrod that I will be pleased with. Perhaps consider after finishing and using my first flyrod, building a second flyrod down the road some timewhere I will be able to further master methods and techniques of splitbamboo flyrod building. But first and foremost, master the basics first, Understand I will be working with a natural material (ArundinariaAmabilus) that takes several years to get to a state before I can evenhandle it to start the process of flyrod building. At least attempt tounderstand the nature of this material and why it is the way it is. Aspecialized material of incredible natural strength that is never uniform,has varying tone and can behave quite differently when two seeminglyindentical pieces of it are placed in front of me. Learn to be fullycomfortable with my own tools and fully understand the methods beforeworking and above all, not to rush things. I don't rush while at a troutstream so I would rush while building a flyrod ? Being careful and beingpatient always pays off. The more time I spend carefully crafting a flyrodto suit myself from clear instructions that I fully understand along withsome knowledgable hands to guide and help me get over the rough spotsandusing proven techniques, the more likely I'll end up with a flyrod Ipersonally will be pleased with. A flyrod, that although is my first andmight well have some blemishes, will have given me a learningopportunityand pleasure in its making. It will have given me introduction into acraft I may wish to persue further with enjoyment being my primemotivator. Along the way, if I learn something that I can pass along toothers in my endevors, perhaps I can build goodwill and friendships thatwill help me when I need it. Which would you advise me to choose ? Rainbow trout mousse anyone ? :) Regards, Harley SilverVictus, libertas et possessio. from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Thu Oct 21 03:00:00 1999 (5.5.2448.0) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: nodeless rods Hi Bob,Welcome to the "dark side". I'll just start off by saying thatI've only made two rods so far (Sir D & Perfectionist ) so I'm no expert,but they both turned out just fine.I haven't tried flaming but would assume that this would be thefirst cab off the rank. from that point onward my order of tasks would be;remove and discard nodes, split, heat treat, splice, rough shape then planeto taper. You could heat treat before you split but I don't think it matterseither way. Do whatever turns you on.You MUST mark the butt ends of your "chopsticks" or you'll forgetwhich end is which as soon as you turn your back on your workbench. Asfaras their arrangement in the rod goes, there are two options. The first oneis to arrange them as they were in the culm. I did my Sir D in this styleand have no complaints. The second option is to begin laying out the strips section. When they run out start using your second lowest culm sectionandso on. Assuming that each butt section strip is made up of, say, sevenspliced pieces, you could have the bottom four pieces in each striporiginating from the same culm section. You can vary this to suit yourowntaste with things such as taper steepness and number of flawed"chopsticks"influencing your decisions. My Perfectionist was made this way and it'sjust fine. If you don't believe me, ask Tony Young what he thinks of it.As this will be your first rod I think nodeless is a wise choice.Splitting is a piece of cake and you don't have to deal with the problem ofbuying or making an oven long enough to heat treat rather lengthy bits ofbamboo. Some people will probably tell you that all the splicing will takeyou forever to finish but, on the other hand, node flattening andstraightening doesn't sound like a five minute job either.Best of luck and make sure to keep us all posted on your progress.If I managed to make one of these damned things, anybody can. Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- Subject: nodeless rods Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e., What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping, and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that it wasa good idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to split them into 24 pieces. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked on each piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged in the culm? 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have to admit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and rough shaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems to make the nodeless technique very appealing. Sorry, too many questions. Thanks in advance, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Oct 21 06:09:33 1999 Subject: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) Thanks for the super response to my inquiry about improving accuracy. =Most of you have suggested that the enamel is part of the problem. When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before final planing or = The RM archives suggest that removal of enamel before gluing leads to =damage to the sacred power fibers or finish defects from residual glue. =I imagine that the epoxy or urethane glues would be the worst in this =regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, without flattening leaves a "crown" (like =in a road) plus irregular surface scabs and lumps. If you calculate the =crown height for a butt spline, it come out to almost 6 mils. This is =in addition to the 2 to 3 mils enamel thickness. The crown error =rapidly becomes insignificant toward the tip, and you could correct the = spline and they averaged out to a similar range on the glued blank. I =re- measured using a three-flute, mill-bit mic that can't crush the apex. =My angles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment print, etc. later =today by e-mail, off-list. The picture will be in an attached bmp file =that should pose no virus threat. I haven't used it yet to fit ferrules ='cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. Thanks for the super response tomy = part of the problem. When should the enamel side The RM archives suggest thatremoval = before gluing leads to damage to the sacred power fibers or finish = worst in this regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, = flattening leaves a "crown" (like in a road) plus irregular = = on the spline and they averaged out to a similar range on the glued = My angles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the =apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment= ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Oct 21 06:16:34 1999 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: Re: Node question Rick and All, I soak my strips prior to planing and working nodes. The rough areasbeneath thenodes and the pith in general planes flat in seconds, the proverbial hotknifethrough butter. No dust, don't leave the work bench were I amstraightening, nodrills or drill presses, just the zing of the plane and the jazz station inthebackground. Thank you Richard Tyree, for suggesting soaking to the list. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "Rick C." wrote: Robert, I'm glad you chimed in. I'm sure I got my set up from your suggestionmonths ago. I will attest to the fact that this works. It is a bit oftrouble to do all strips though, so I only use it on culms that haveparticularly troublesome dips on one side of the node or other. A word of caution. I PUSH my strips through the jig set up. And onewould be well advised to wear leather gloves especially if pulling thestrip through. If the sanding drum grabs the strip, the sliding stripcan cut your fingers like a razor. Rick C.ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplish this Iuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knocking thediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run the stripsoverthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of woodthat Iclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inchdiametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. Then Ipullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum and theenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side of thenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope -----Original Message-----From: Harry Boyd Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:27 PMSubject: Re: Node question Art,Are you asking if I remove the nodal diaphragm? Of course I do.Now that youmention it though, I do remember someone telling me that a slight dipshould be filedin the pith side of the node before flattening in order to give thecompressed enamelside somewhere to go. That's not something I normally do. Harry Art Port wrote: Harry,I just saw John's post and recalled that one time I tried toflatten canebefore I removed the inner portions of the nodes. What a screw- up!Thecushion on the inner face allowed for all sorts of problems with therindside. I don't remember what caused me to do it, but it'll never happenagain!If that's what you've been doing you have a real easy way toavoid troublein the future.Art At 08:40 PM 10/19/1999 -0600, channer wrote:At 02:23 PM 10/19/1999 - 0500, Harry Boyd wrote:Ralph,Yes, I press the nodes flat. Let me try to describe thisanother way. A culm of bamboo is basically round, or close to it.Let's say that the circumference of the node is approximately 7.5"(2.5" diameter times pi). The problem areas seems to have asignificantly smaller circumference. Though I'm overstating, let'ssaythe problem area has a circumference of 6".When sanding, I can get the enamel off the center of the stripwith no trouble, but the edges of the strip seem excessivelycurved.The raised part of the node is level with the rest of the strip. Thedips above and below the node have been raised even with the restofthestrip. Flattening much more would crush the strip.Not only do I press the nodes flat, I also press them straight.Maybe I'm pressing too much and the strips squeeze upwards in thecenterand down on the sides. Many this is hard to explain..... Sorry for all the confusion,y'all. Harry Harry;Straighten first, flatten second. Heat the strip, put it in the viseenamelside up for 5 seconds, then flip to enamel side to the jaws whileyouheatthe next node, that way you get it all done with one heating. It helpsifyou file the bump off the pith side as well, try to make the nodeareathesame thickness as the surrounding cane, it should come out straightandflat.John from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 21 07:43:47 1999 Subject: Re: Re: CORRECTION ON rough forms HomeyDKlown@worldnet.att.net In a message dated 10/21/99 4:28:24 AM, avyoung@iinet.net.au wrote: Tony - You are probably right here, but I always start with the wooden V groves. I think the untapered groove is easier to use at this stage. If I get a strip with a skewed edge, I hold it on it's side and plane a few passes. I think a roughly square strip is the easiest starting point. None of this is really all thet critical, If you are getting the angles right, your technique must be OK.Incidently, these V groove forms are easily made with a router table and a 60* bit. from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Thu Oct 21 08:06:38 1999 Subject: Re: Node question Rick,And also I didn't mean to say I'm not having any problems because god knows there are plenty to haveThanksJoe from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Oct 21 09:31:37 1999 (8.8.4/8.6.8) with Subject: Re: nodeless rods Bob, Nodeless construction adds some steps to the process but you get toskip some things that cause problems even for experienced builders,let alone us beginners. Here are a couple things others haven'tmentioned. I've got an art marker with a fine point on one end and a wide pointon the other. I mark the cane sections with stripes across the pithside: 1 thin mark for the section closest to the tip, 2 for the next,a wide mark counts for 5. On place where nodeless builders don't agree is whether to use clampsor binding cord for the splices. I use 3 Jorgensen 1 inch springclamps at each splice. It is critical to keep the enamel flush on thetwo strips being mated. Other than that there isn't much to go wrong. You can find a lot in the archives about nodeless building.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, bob maulucci wrote: Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique... from stpete@netten.net Thu Oct 21 09:39:04 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:51:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Node question Steve, You may have missed the point that Robert Kope and I were trying tomake. In those instances (which do not occur with every culm) wherethere are troublesome dips near the node (on the enamel side of thestrip), you can make flattening easier by using the drum/jig to keep thepith side PARALLEL to the enamel side. Doing this means that you arenot crushing lots of pith in order to flatten the enamel side. Doesthat make sense? Rick C. Steve Trauthwein wrote: Rick and All, I soak my strips prior to planing and working nodes. The rough areasbeneath thenodes and the pith in general planes flat in seconds, the proverbial hotknifethrough butter. No dust, don't leave the work bench were I amstraightening, nodrills or drill presses, just the zing of the plane and the jazz station inthebackground. Thank you Richard Tyree, for suggesting soaking to the list. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "Rick C." wrote: Robert, I'm glad you chimed in. I'm sure I got my set up from your suggestionmonths ago. I will attest to the fact that this works. It is a bit oftrouble to do all strips though, so I only use it on culms that haveparticularly troublesome dips on one side of the node or other. A word of caution. I PUSH my strips through the jig set up. And onewould be well advised to wear leather gloves especially if pulling thestrip through. If the sanding drum grabs the strip, the sliding stripcan cut your fingers like a razor. Rick C.ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplish thisIuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knocking thediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run the stripsoverthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of woodthat Iclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inchdiametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. Then Ipullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum and theenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side of thenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Oct 21 10:05:15 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:04:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) --------------B95F18073F5151A739B5AECD Jim,Thoughtful questions and well thought out responses. That'swhat makes this list too valuable to waste time on off the wallsubjects.On my first few rods, I removed only the outer coating of enamelbefore final planing. I left a considerable "enamel haze" to give me alittle margin of error when removing the glue and glue soaked string.But I had problems with oversized strips, and like you decided that theenamel might be part of the problem.Because I have refined my techniques in gluing, for the lastseveral rods I have been removing about 95% of the enamel before finalplaning. I lightly run a scraper over the enamel for a pass or two,then make a consistent number of passes with a fine grit Supr-Sandr (seeJerry's Rodmakers page), then about 10 passes with 400 grit sandpaper.Trouble spots are very lightly filed with a 6" mill bastard file, andre-sandedI've been using Nyatex epoxy to glue, then binding, then wipingaway the majority of the excess glue with a vinegar soaked rag. Thefollowing morning, I remove the string, and wipe down with vinegaragain. Only tiny traces of glue are left. Then I re-bind the stripsand heat set the Nyatex epoxy. After heat setting, a very few carefulstrokes with a file remove any traces of glue. A couple of passes with1000 grit sandpaper leaves me ready to wrap guides. I have to admit that I made quite a few changes to my techniqueall at the same time. I'm not really sure which of them made thedifference, but my measurements are a lot closer now than at first. Whoknows, my technique may have even improved a little. Harry Jim Utzerath wrote: Thanks for the super response to my inquiry about improvingaccuracy. Most of you have suggested that the enamel is part of theproblem. When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before finalplaning or after gluing? The RM archives suggest that removal ofenamel before gluing leads to damage to the sacred power fibers orfinish defects from residual glue. I imagine that the epoxy orurethane glues would be the worst in this regard (I am using URAC185). The enamel, on the other hand, without flattening leaves a"crown" (like in a road) plus irregular surface scabs and lumps. Ifyou calculate the crown height for a butt spline, it come out toalmost 6 mils. This is in addition to the 2 to 3 mils enamelthickness. The crown error rapidly becomes insignificant toward thetip, and you could correct the form settings with some difficulty.(Anyone do this?) For the record, my errors ranged from +.003 to -.005depending on the spline and they averaged out to a similar range onthe glued blank. I re-measured using a three-flute, mill-bit micthat can't crush the apex. My angles tended to be a degree or less(acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the LatheAttachment print, etc. later today by e-mail, off-list. The picturewill be in an attached bmp file that should pose no virus threat. Ihaven't used it yet to fit ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tightlines all. --------------B95F18073F5151A739B5AECD Jim, and valuableto waste time on off the wall subjects. left a considerable "enamel haze" to give me a little margin of error when oversized strips, and like you decided that the enamel might be part ofthe problem. mytechniques in gluing, for the last several rods I have been removing about passeswith a fine grit Supr-Sandr (see Jerry's Rodmakers page), then about 10 with a 6" mill bastard file, and re-sanded epoxyto glue, then binding, then wiping away the majority of the excess glue string, setting, a very few careful strokes with a file remove any traces of A couple of passes with 1000 grit sandpaper leaves me ready to wrapguides. made really sure which of them made the difference, but my measurements are even improved a little.HarryJim Utzerath wrote: of you have suggested that the enamel is part of the archivessuggest that removal of enamel before gluing leads to damage to thesacred the epoxy or urethane glues would be the worst in this regard (I am using enamel,on the other hand, without flattening leaves a "crown" (like in a road) rapidlybecomes insignificant toward the tip, and you could correct the formsettings the record, my errors ranged from +.003 to -.005 depending on the spline re-measured using a three-flute, mill-bit mic that can't crush the apex.My angles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment print, etc. later today --------------B95F18073F5151A739B5AECD-- from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 21 10:13:37 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:12:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) First, I always remove the enamel after the section is glued up, =straightened and cured. When planing my strips, I set my form depth =.002 larger than I want each finished strip to be, so that when removing =the enamel, I have .002" to work on each flat. In other words, my =entire section, butt to tip will be oversized 0.004" before I use my =scraper to remove the enamel. As for irregular surface scaps and lumps, =there should really be none except at the nodes, on an acceptable strip, =and those at that stage have already been flattened.Jim, would like to see your Lathe attachment .bmp... please send it to =me.. Thanks,Nunley Jim Wrote:::When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before final planing or = The RM archives suggest that removal of enamel before gluing leads =to damage to the sacred power fibers or finish defects from residual =glue. I imagine that the epoxy or urethane glues would be the worst in =this regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, without flattening leaves a "crown" =(like in a road) plus irregular surface scabs and lumps. If you =calculate the crown height for a butt spline, it come out to almost 6 =mils. This is in addition to the 2 to 3 mils enamel thickness. The =crown error rapidly becomes insignificant toward the tip, and you could = the spline and they averaged out to a similar range on the glued blank. =I re- measured using a three-flute, mill-bit mic that can't crush the =apex. My angles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment print, etc. =later today by e-mail, off-list. The picture will be in an attached bmp =file that should pose no virus threat. I haven't used it yet to fit =ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. First, I always remove the enamel after the section= .002 larger than I want each finished strip to be, so that when removing = section, butt to tip will be oversized 0.004" before I use my = = really be none except at the nodes, on an acceptable strip, and those at = stage have already been flattened.Jim, would like to see your Lathe attachment .bmp...= send it to me.. Thanks,Nunley Jim =Wrote:::When should the enamel side The RM archives suggest that = enamel before gluing leads to damage to the sacred power fibers or = would be the worst in this regard (I am using URAC =185). The enamel, on the other hand,= flattening leaves a "crown" (like in a road) plus = depending on the spline and they averaged out to a similar range on = that can't crush the apex. My angles tended to be a degree or less = at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe = yet to fit ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. from TSmithwick@aol.com Thu Oct 21 10:52:25 1999 Subject: Quick quad taper What follows is the taper to the two strip quad I glued up as a demo at the Carlisle, PA meeting last month. I was going for a quicker rod than the version that I was passing around. I got my wish. I built this one a bit fancier and even used a ferrule instead of the taped splice. Not that the taped splice didn't work well, it's just that it seemed to provoke a lot of jealousy from my fellow rodmakers. Oh sure, they tried to disguise it with laughter, but I wasn't fooled. Not for a minute.Anyway, I used an oversized ferrule, padding the gaps with slips of woodand turning down to size. I just lightly broke the corners of the quad section. This rod is nodeless, with the splices glued with resourcinal. Asmentioned in the presentation, Titebond does not seem strong enough for splices intwo strip construction. The rod is actually a bit quicker than I expected. It may have something to do with the very dense leftover butt section pieces Iused midge I measured a long time ago. 6'3" 4 weight, but may like a 5 better in close.0 -.0615 -.07110-.08915-.10420-.11625-.13230-.14235-.16140- .17445-.19250-.19655-.21260-.21965-.22970-.23875-.250 from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 11:15:13 1999 1999 09:15:16 PDT Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed. ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Thu Oct 21 11:25:52 1999 VirusWall NT);Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:23:38 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane The Stanley 9 1/2 is back but it is not the same quality that the Pre1982??I think that was the date anything before 82 was a much finer plane. Thanks,Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message----- Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed. ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 11:37:32 1999 1999 09:38:24 PDT Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane kirk, record has a 9 1/2 in production also. howdoes it compare to the old stanley? ...or anyoneelse? timothy --- "Brownlee, Kirk" wrote: The Stanley 9 1/2 is back but it is not the samequality that the Pre 1982??I think that was the date anything before 82 was amuch finer plane. Thanks,Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed. ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Thu Oct 21 11:51:52 1999 VirusWall NT);Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:49:12 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane from what I have read and heard from others is dig up an old Stanley 91/2because the Record and New Stanley lack the fine tuning of the old Stanley91/2 I don't know how fine of cute they are talking about I have a Record 9 1/2that I use kdbrownlee@msn.com or kirk_brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane kirk, record has a 9 1/2 in production also. howdoes it compare to the old stanley? ...or anyoneelse? timothy --- "Brownlee, Kirk" wrote: The Stanley 9 1/2 is back but it is not the samequality that the Pre 1982??I think that was the date anything before 82 was amuch finer plane. Thanks,Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed. ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from bhoy@inmind.com Thu Oct 21 11:53:42 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:47:49 -0400 Subject: RE: A for real question about flaming rods What kind of torch is best for flaming? I have an idea that your basic $14bernzomatic has a too-hot and concentrated flame. I've tried sears andlowe's, but I haven't seen anything that might allow you to output a broadyellow flame. Any specific suggestions? Thanks. Bill Hoy At 07:28 PM 10/20/1999 -0700, Martin Jensen wrote:Is the pith side of the culm darker? If it is then you could have overflamed it. from the sounds of it though, it doesn't sound like it. While Iflame my culm I really am tempering the bamboo. I run it over the flamefor10 minutes or so and it gradually turns darker. When I flame for themottledappearance I flame with just a hand held propane torch and I flame to achocolate brown. It really flames this dark quickly. When you are doneplaning you will remove some of the color as you plane just the surfaceofthe rind off. This will lighten the color so you want to flame a little toodark to start with. Pretty much I think that you have to try a piece andseehow it turns out and adjust accordingly. You know, there are just somethings that you need to try out in order to see how it works. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: October 20, 1999 6:01 PM Subject: A for real question about flaming rods Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rodapproach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into strips comparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bill HoyBedford County Webmeister/PIOVA USAw.hoy@co.bedford.va.us(bhoy@inmind.com) from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Oct 21 12:33:17 1999 Fri, 22 Oct 1999 01:32:54 +0800 Subject: Re: nodeless rods looks like the subject's about covered. I will add a couple of points though.The easiest way to keep track of the base end of the chopsticks is to drawa line around the circumference about 1' above the node. Cut the littledevil out then split the cylinder. Becasue you've drawn the line beforesplitting you have already indexed the chopsticks.I lay all my chopsticks on a tray enamel down and heat treat. It could beenamel up, it dosn't matter but in the search for accuracy I always keepthe time/temp/orientation the same.I bind my scarfs with thread and use Shell Epon for the scarfs and splines.My scarf angle is 22:1Mike Robert's Perfectionist casts like a dream. Tony At 11:03 PM 10/20/99 -0700, bob maulucci wrote:Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e., What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping, and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that itwas a good idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to split them into 24 pieces. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked on each piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged in the culm? 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have to admit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and rough shaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems to make the nodeless technique very appealing. Sorry, too many questions. Thanks in advance, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And this our life, exempt from public haunt,Finds tongues in trees, books in running brooks,Sermons in stones, and good in everything. William Shakespeare, As You Like It /*************************************************************************/ from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Oct 21 12:34:01 1999 KAA23057 (5.5.2448.0) Subject: RE: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) Jim I would like you to send me that lathe attachment also, thank you!! Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 ---------- Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) First, I always remove the enamel after the section is glued up,straightened andcured. When planing my strips, I set my form depth .002 larger than Iwant eachfinished strip to be, so that when removing the enamel, I have .002" towork on eachflat. In other words, my entire section, butt to tip will be oversized0.004" before Iuse my scraper to remove the enamel. As for irregular surface scaps andlumps, thereshould really be none except at the nodes, on an acceptable strip, andthose at thatstage have already been flattened.Jim, would like to see your Lathe attachment .bmp... please send it tome.. Thanks,Nunley Jim Wrote:::When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before final planing oraftergluing? The RM archives suggest that removal of enamel before gluing leadsto damage tothe sacred power fibers or finish defects from residual glue. I imaginethat the epoxyor urethane glues would be the worst in this regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, without flattening leaves a "crown"(like in aroad) plus irregular surface scabs and lumps. If you calculate the crownheight for abutt spline, it come out to almost 6 mils. This is in addition to the 2 to 3milsenamel thickness. The crown error rapidly becomes insignificant towardthe tip, and youcould correct the form settings with some difficulty. (Anyone do this?) the spline andthey averaged out to a similar range on the glued blank. I re- measuredusing athree-flute, mill-bit mic that can't crush the apex. My angles tended to bea degree orless (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment print, etc. latertoday bye-mail, off-list. The picture will be in an attached bmp file that shouldpose no virusthreat. I haven't used it yet to fit ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. from iank@nelson.planet.org.nz Thu Oct 21 12:44:16 1999 Subject: Re: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) Jim, There appear to be two views on this , before or after glueing . I used todo it after glueing but now prefer to remove it before final planning. Isand them off with 400 sand paper with the splines held upright in theplanning form . I have found this has assisted in the consistancy of thefinal blanks , particually in the node area as any slight rise orinconsistancy is sanded out prior to the final taper being planned. Ian Kearney At 06:09 AM 21/10/99 -0500, Jim Utzerath wrote:Thanks for the super response to my inquiry about improving accuracy. Mostof you have suggested that the enamel is part of the problem. When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before final planing oraftergluing? The RM archives suggest that removal of enamel before gluing leads todamage to the sacred power fibers or finish defects from residual glue. Iimagine that the epoxy or urethane glues would be the worst in this regard(I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, without flattening leaves a "crown" (likeina road) plus irregular surface scabs and lumps. If you calculate the crownheight for a butt spline, it come out to almost 6 mils. This is in additionto the 2 to 3 mils enamel thickness. The crown error rapidly becomesinsignificant toward the tip, and you could correct the form settings withsome difficulty. (Anyone do this?) spline and they averaged out to a similar range on the glued blank. Ire- measured using a three-flute, mill-bit mic that can't crush the apex.Myangles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachment print, etc. latertoday should pose no virus threat. I haven't used it yet to fit ferrules 'cause Ijust ordered them. Tight lines all. Thanks for the super response to myinquiry enamel is part of the problem. When should the enamel side be The RM archives suggest that removalof enamel before gluing leads to damage to the sacred power fibers or finishdefects from the worst in this regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand,without flattening leaves a "crown" (like in a road) plus irregularsurface spline, it enamel the tip, (Anyone do depending on the spline and they averaged out to a similar range on the glued theapex. My angles tended to be a degree or less (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the Lathe Attachmentprint, attached fit ferrules 'cause I just ordered them. Tight lines all. from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Oct 21 12:55:30 1999 Subject: Re: Advice sought. Hi Harley,This post is going to stir up the troops to wax eloquent!Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: Advice sought. Goodevening,I am new to this list and bamboo flyrod making. In fact, I've never madea flyrod in my life. I'm considering two differing approaches to buildinga split bamboo flyrod. So I was wondering if other list members mightadvise me on the two approaches to this; EITHER;I know people who make and own split bamboo flyrods, and even thoughI'venever watched the full process, I figure simply knowing others who havedone it is sufficient knowledge to do things myself. Sorta like a spouseof a professional that claims to know all about that profession becausethey sleep with a professional. After all, big companies used to makebamboo rods on production lines. I figure I could knock out the bestbamboo flyrod around pretty fast. Maybe a couple of weeks. After all,bamboo schmamboo. I know machinery and metal shop work and I figure Icould build my own production line. You know, knock out fifty or ahundredof those bamboo puppies every six hours. Have a plant running 24 hours aday in say, three shifts. Start up a complete line of bamboo rods allmanufactured by robots so they'd be perfect. These bamboo flyrods wouldbethe best sons of bitches in the flyrod world. Hey wait ! That's it ! I'd call my line of flyrods, Son's Of Bitches. It wouldn't even matter if I didn't know a culm of Tonkin cane from aspruce two by four. After all that's what the public wants, right ?Knocked out bamboo rods at say, 250 bux apiece cold hard cash. I'd berichin no time. What the hell does the public know about a flyrod anywaysandbesides, epoxy covers anything. No one would notice. I could make thebestrods in the world at that price and maybe even spam and get publicity from any and everything and get my name around. Good will and all thatauthentic handmade craftmanship of yesteryear is pure crap for loosers.What the hell did those old dead guys know anyways ? Who needs it?Thereare profits to be had today ! And its the bottom line that counts, right?Now one would know the difference. I could probably take over thebamboorod building world in six months. ! Why, my Son's Of Bitches would makeme famous! OR AS AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH Carefully listen, ask questions, read and do my very best to take this onestep at a time. Understand what it is I am trying to accomplish beforestarting and not simply make it up as I go along. Attempt to build oneflyrod that I will be pleased with. Perhaps consider after finishing andusing my first flyrod, building a second flyrod down the road some timewhere I will be able to further master methods and techniques of splitbamboo flyrod building. But first and foremost, master the basics first, Understand I will be working with a natural material (ArundinariaAmabilus) that takes several years to get to a state before I can evenhandle it to start the process of flyrod building. At least attempt tounderstand the nature of this material and why it is the way it is. Aspecialized material of incredible natural strength that is neveruniform,has varying tone and can behave quite differently when two seeminglyindentical pieces of it are placed in front of me. Learn to be fullycomfortable with my own tools and fully understand the methods beforeworking and above all, not to rush things. I don't rush while at a troutstream so I would rush while building a flyrod ? Being careful and beingpatient always pays off. The more time I spend carefully crafting aflyrodto suit myself from clear instructions that I fully understand along withsome knowledgable hands to guide and help me get over the rough spotsandusing proven techniques, the more likely I'll end up with a flyrod Ipersonally will be pleased with. A flyrod, that although is my first andmight well have some blemishes, will have given me a learningopportunityand pleasure in its making. It will have given me introduction into acraft I may wish to persue further with enjoyment being my primemotivator. Along the way, if I learn something that I can pass along toothers in my endevors, perhaps I can build goodwill and friendships thatwill help me when I need it. Which would you advise me to choose ? Rainbow trout mousse anyone ? :) Regards, Harley SilverVictus, libertas et possessio. from rsgould@cmc.net Thu Oct 21 13:16:10 1999 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Hi Mike,You pose an excellent question. It seems to me that if this hasn't alreadybeen analyzed and some objectivity applied to it via testing formechanicalproperties, it ought to be done. Surely a strip can be over- flamed orover-cooked, but the question is how does one know? Perhaps thedeflectiontest would be revealing. On the rods I have flamed I usually try to "tone"the rods lightly and not overdo it. My reaction to learning about the enamelpopping off is that the treatment may have been too severe in that area.It'll be interesting to read other responses in this regard.Ray----- Original Message ----- Subject: A for real question about flaming rods Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rodapproach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into strips comparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 13:25:28 1999 1999 11:26:26 PDT Subject: Re: Conclusion to Improving Accuracy (Another question) just goes to show ya... i set my forms -.001" tocompensate for glue, remove glue with 2nd cutfilefollowed by finer file on spots then 22ogritlightly, 0000 steel wool then 4oogrit sandpaper thenmaybe 600grit. (at least i think that's what i do. i'd have to turn on my rod music to be certain.) timothy --- Bob Nunley wrote:First, I always remove the enamel after the sectionis glued up, straightened and cured. When planingmy strips, I set my form depth .002 larger than Iwant each finished strip to be, so that whenremoving the enamel, I have .002" to work on eachflat. In other words, my entire section, butt totip will be oversized 0.004" before I use my scraperto remove the enamel. As for irregular surfacescaps and lumps, there should really be none exceptat the nodes, on an acceptable strip, and those atthat stage have already been flattened.Jim, would like to see your Lathe attachment .bmp...please send it to me.. Thanks,Nunley Jim Wrote:::When should the enamel side be flattened??? Before final planing or after gluing? The RM archives suggest that removal of enamelbefore gluing leads to damage to the sacred powerfibers or finish defects from residual glue. Iimagine that the epoxy or urethane glues would bethe worst in this regard (I am using URAC 185). The enamel, on the other hand, withoutflattening leaves a "crown" (like in a road) plusirregular surface scabs and lumps. If you calculatethe crown height for a butt spline, it come out toalmost 6 mils. This is in addition to the 2 to 3mils enamel thickness. The crown error rapidlybecomes insignificant toward the tip, and you couldcorrect the form settings with some difficulty. (Anyone do this?) -.005 depending on the spline and they averaged outto a similar range on the glued blank. I re-measured using a three-flute, mill-bit mic thatcan't crush the apex. My angles tended to be adegree or less (acute) at the apex. I will respond to requests for the LatheAttachment print, etc. later today by e-mail,off-list. The picture will be in an attached bmpfile that should pose no virus threat. I haven'tused it yet to fit ferrules 'cause I just orderedthem. Tight lines all. ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from caneman@clnk.com Thu Oct 21 13:33:15 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:32:07 -0500 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods When I flame a rod it is purely for cosmetic purpose (I just like thatmottled, flamed look) and do not let that replace my heat treating process.I have been told by many that I am going a step too far, and that flamingtempers the cane properly, but my heat treating process is very defined asfar as temperature, (and evenness of temp throughout my oven) and theamountof time I temper the cane. I may be wrong, but to me, flaming is not anaccurate process and cannot replace heat treating in my oven. Anythoughts? Nunley -----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Hi Mike,You pose an excellent question. It seems to me that if this hasn't alreadybeen analyzed and some objectivity applied to it via testing formechanicalproperties, it ought to be done. Surely a strip can be over- flamed orover-cooked, but the question is how does one know? Perhaps thedeflectiontest would be revealing. On the rods I have flamed I usually try to "tone"the rods lightly and not overdo it. My reaction to learning about theenamelpopping off is that the treatment may have been too severe in that area.It'll be interesting to read other responses in this regard.Ray----- Original Message -----From: Mike Shaffer Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 6:00 PMSubject: A for real question about flaming rods Guys,Having finished my blond rod (#1) I decided to try the flamed rodapproach.Well, I got the old trusty propane torch out and did the flaming. Now,maybe belatedly, I was wondering how to tell if I over-flamed the culm.Some, but not all of the enamel did pop up (I don't know how to describeit), and I never heated it to the point of burning.Does this sound like I'm at least in the ball park? I had to use mybernzomatic torch because it was all I had available.I did find though that the culm was a dream to split into stripscomparedtothe blond rod! : ^)) Mike from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 13:40:59 1999 1999 11:42:00 PDT Subject: Re: stanley 9 1/2 plane "rod 'akers" darrell, i wish i knew. when i started making rods itdidn't take me long to figure out i was wrong. i hadto decide to live with it or not make rods. i lovemaking bamboo flyrods. there's always critics. ilike flyrod builders but i'm kind of stuck off bymyself. maybe that saves me from being wrong so much,i don't know. ...so, i wish i knew for sure about oldverses new. i've not seen the newest 9 1/2's but i'llbelieve what i've been told today. if i had a planethat was over 50 years old i'd try to use it. i'veeven found a job for my grandad's old beatup blockplane because it makes me happy to use it. truth is idon't use a 9 1/2. i haven't found one i didn't haveto screw with any more than what i've got. i'll getone sometime because i want one. i have good luckwith what i have, tho' some days it works better thanothers(or maybe i work better some days than otherdays.) timothy troester --- Darrell Lee wrote:I just bought a early Stanley 9 1/2... The planeiron is marked Stanley Rule& Level Co. and it has several pre-1900 patent datesso I assume that datesit before 1910... I have several later ones and itlooks almost the same...my question is that most of my 9 1/2's are 50+ yearsold and the patina ofthe irons leads me to believe that they are like oldknives and are lesscorrosion resistant but should hold an edge sharperlonger? I'm I wrong? Darrellwww.bamboorods.homepage.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from gholland@navsys.com Thu Oct 21 13:47:38 1999 "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane I'll jump in on this, though my comments are what I've heard...notexperience. I'm still in the equipment gathering stage and my impressionisthat the Record 9 1/2 is kind of the equivalent of the older Stanleys and,according to Howell in "The Lovely Reed", are the best thing being maderight now (without spending your life savings for a plane). After all ofthe input I've gotten from this list, reading, etc.... I'm going with theRecord 9 1/2. Greg Holland -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane from what I have read and heard from others is dig up an old Stanley 91/2because the Record and New Stanley lack the fine tuning of the old Stanley91/2 I don't know how fine of cute they are talking about I have a Record 9 1/2that I use kdbrownlee@msn.com or kirk_brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane kirk, record has a 9 1/2 in production also. howdoes it compare to the old stanley? ...or anyoneelse? timothy --- "Brownlee, Kirk" wrote: The Stanley 9 1/2 is back but it is not the samequality that the Pre 1982??I think that was the date anything before 82 was amuch finer plane. Thanks,Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed. ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Oct 21 13:49:27 1999 0000 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Flaming is a very popular thing among rod makers - an estimated 75% ofrods are flamed.A word of caution though - the single flamed tourch - that $15 kit - cancause some problems though. It's heat output is low and the result can bethat if you attempt to flam too darkly with the torch you can do damage tothe inner fibers. A crude example would be that of seering a steak - on lowheat (low available energy) by the time the surface is brown the meat iscooked inside - however if you seer a steak on high heat (large amount ofavailable energy) you can have a brown surface and a pink middle - sameapplies to bamboo.A good observation about the splitting - after flaming the culm splitscrisper - because of removed moisture - BUT - I would still heat treat atany of the recognized time - temperature rates as if it weren't flamed. Wayne from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Oct 21 13:57:05 1999 12:02:51 PDT Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods There have been discussions in the past covering the movement ofmoisture in and out of bamboo cells. We discussed that altering the cell structure in theory would prevent moisture from coming back into the cells, at least to some degree. from this it would make sense that whichever heat treatment you use, oven or flaming, would be most effective at the point where the cell structure is altered. If the oven or torch only dries the bamboo cells out but doesn't alter the cell structure by melting the internal bonding material then it would seem that this would not temperthe cane, but only dry it out until the moisture has had time to move back into the cane. If the oven or torch is used to the point that it alters the cell structure and blocks movement of moisture, at least to a degree, then you have accomplished some level of tempering. So in application aperson would need to decide what degree of heat treating alters the cell structures. Darkness of a rod is at least a visual indicator to the cells being altered. Also important is the environment you are working in, how long your "tempered" strips wait until they are glued up and a finish is applied, followed by wax? (parafin wax being the best block to moisture per prior postings). I'm no scientist, but this theory at least makes sense to me. Somebody please feel free to fill in the blanks for me. Thanks. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from Patrick.Coffey@PSS.Boeing.com Thu Oct 21 14:28:06 1999 MAA07979; (5.5.2448.0) "rod 'akers","'tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com'" Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane Old Stanley blades were made out of Swedish steel and hold an edge betterthan the newones. In those days they were made for people that made a living usingthem and had tohold and edge. Time spent at the sharpening stone was time lost. The newones are made and don't holdand edge worth beans. My boss at the violin shop that I worked at told methis and ofcourse I didn't believe that and had to find out the hard way. He wouldsearch outgarage sales and flea markets just to find old Stanley blades to makefinger planeblades and carving knives and it was amazing the difference in edgeholding ability. Ashe put "easy to sharpen, easy to dull". A good example of this is searschisels, good Patrick W. CoffeyAOG Incident Repair PlanningPhone: 425-234-2901Fax: 425-237-0083M-2112 M/C 61-79 --- Darrell Lee wrote:I just bought a early Stanley 9 1/2... The planeiron is marked Stanley Rule& Level Co. and it has several pre-1900 patent datesso I assume that datesit before 1910... I have several later ones and itlooks almost the same...my question is that most of my 9 1/2's are 50+ yearsold and the patina ofthe irons leads me to believe that they are like oldknives and are lesscorrosion resistant but should hold an edge sharperlonger? I'm I wrong? Darrellwww.bamboorods.homepage.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 14:41:53 1999 1999 12:42:55 PDT Subject: RE: Stanley 9 1/2 plane "rod 'akers" --- "Coffey, Patrick W"wrote:Old Stanley blades were made out of Swedish steeland hold an edge better than the new ones. In those you know i do use hock blades. they do hold up betterthan the stanleys i've used. timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from anglport@con2.com Thu Oct 21 16:04:48 1999 Subject: Re: Advice sought. Harley,Go with the "Either". There'll be only you and George Gherke out thereconflicting with each other! (Great parody!)ArtSeriously, if you already have the metalworking skills, I'd suggest doing afairly cheap graphite blank first to hone the abilities that'll make agreat piece of cane look ordinary if you don't have some practice underyour belt.The metalworking will work with the cane (really) but you needpatience and experience with the finishing to make it look GOOD. 'Courseyou could always strip the finish off and try again if it's not to yourliking.Art At 12:19 AM 10/21/1999 -0400, hsilver@pyx.net wrote: Goodevening,I am new to this list and bamboo flyrod making. In fact, I've never madea flyrod in my life. I'm considering two differing approaches to buildinga split bamboo flyrod. So I was wondering if other list members might advise me on the two approaches to this; EITHER;I know people who make and own split bamboo flyrods, and even thoughI'venever watched the full process, I figure simply knowing others who havedone it is sufficient knowledge to do things myself. Sorta like a spouseof a professional that claims to know all about that profession becausethey sleep with a professional. After all, big companies used to makebamboo rods on production lines. I figure I could knock out the bestbamboo flyrod around pretty fast. Maybe a couple of weeks. After all,bamboo schmamboo. I know machinery and metal shop work and I figure Icould build my own production line. You know, knock out fifty or a hundredof those bamboo puppies every six hours. Have a plant running 24 hours aday in say, three shifts. Start up a complete line of bamboo rods allmanufactured by robots so they'd be perfect. These bamboo flyrods wouldbethe best sons of bitches in the flyrod world. Hey wait ! That's it ! I'd call my line of flyrods, Son's Of Bitches. It wouldn't even matter if I didn't know a culm of Tonkin cane from aspruce two by four. After all that's what the public wants, right ?Knocked out bamboo rods at say, 250 bux apiece cold hard cash. I'd be richin no time. What the hell does the public know about a flyrod anyways andbesides, epoxy covers anything. No one would notice. I could make thebestrods in the world at that price and maybe even spam and get publicity from any and everything and get my name around. Good will and all thatauthentic handmade craftmanship of yesteryear is pure crap for loosers.What the hell did those old dead guys know anyways ? Who needs it?Thereare profits to be had today ! And its the bottom line that counts, right?Now one would know the difference. I could probably take over thebamboorod building world in six months. ! Why, my Son's Of Bitches would makeme famous! OR AS AN ALTERNATIVE APPROACH Carefully listen, ask questions, read and do my very best to take this onestep at a time. Understand what it is I am trying to accomplish beforestarting and not simply make it up as I go along. Attempt to build oneflyrod that I will be pleased with. Perhaps consider after finishing and using my first flyrod, building a second flyrod down the road some timewhere I will be able to further master methods and techniques of splitbamboo flyrod building. But first and foremost, master the basics first, Understand I will be working with a natural material (ArundinariaAmabilus) that takes several years to get to a state before I can evenhandle it to start the process of flyrod building. At least attempt tounderstand the nature of this material and why it is the way it is. Aspecialized material of incredible natural strength that is never uniform,has varying tone and can behave quite differently when two seeminglyindentical pieces of it are placed in front of me. Learn to be fullycomfortable with my own tools and fully understand the methods beforeworking and above all, not to rush things. I don't rush while at a troutstream so I would rush while building a flyrod ? Being careful and beingpatient always pays off. The more time I spend carefully crafting a flyrodto suit myself from clear instructions that I fully understand along withsome knowledgable hands to guide and help me get over the rough spotsandusing proven techniques, the more likely I'll end up with a flyrod Ipersonally will be pleased with. A flyrod, that although is my first andmight well have some blemishes, will have given me a learningopportunityand pleasure in its making. It will have given me introduction into acraft I may wish to persue further with enjoyment being my primemotivator. Along the way, if I learn something that I can pass along toothers in my endevors, perhaps I can build goodwill and friendships thatwill help me when I need it. Which would you advise me to choose ? Rainbow trout mousse anyone ? :) Regards, Harley SilverVictus, libertas et possessio. from anglport@con2.com Thu Oct 21 16:07:38 1999 "'bob@downandacross.com'" ,rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: nodeless rods Mike,If you have a heat gun and soak, a 6' strip can be done in UNDER 5mins(believe it or not!).Art At 04:06 PM 10/21/1999 +0800, Roberts, Michael wrote:Hi Bob,Welcome to the "dark side". I'll just start off by saying thatI've only made two rods so far (Sir D & Perfectionist ) so I'm no expert,but they both turned out just fine.I haven't tried flaming but would assume that this would be thefirst cab off the rank. from that point onward my order of tasks wouldbe;remove and discard nodes, split, heat treat, splice, rough shape thenplaneto taper. You could heat treat before you split but I don't think it matterseither way. Do whatever turns you on.You MUST mark the butt ends of your "chopsticks" or you'll forgetwhich end is which as soon as you turn your back on your workbench. Asfaras their arrangement in the rod goes, there are two options. The first oneis to arrange them as they were in the culm. I did my Sir D in this styleand have no complaints. The second option is to begin laying out thestrips section. When they run out start using your second lowest culm sectionandso on. Assuming that each butt section strip is made up of, say, sevenspliced pieces, you could have the bottom four pieces in each striporiginating from the same culm section. You can vary this to suit yourowntaste with things such as taper steepness and number of flawed"chopsticks"influencing your decisions. My Perfectionist was made this way and it'sjust fine. If you don't believe me, ask Tony Young what he thinks of it.As this will be your first rod I think nodeless is a wise choice.Splitting is a piece of cake and you don't have to deal with the problem ofbuying or making an oven long enough to heat treat rather lengthy bits ofbamboo. Some people will probably tell you that all the splicing willtakeyou forever to finish but, on the other hand, node flattening andstraightening doesn't sound like a five minute job either.Best of luck and make sure to keep us all posted on your progress.If I managed to make one of these damned things, anybody can. Best regards Mike -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, 21 October 1999 14:04 Subject: nodeless rods Help O nodeless ones, 1. Could someone give me a run down of steps for nodeless technique. i.e., What order does splitting, flaming, heat treating, splicing, rough shaping, and primary tapering come in? I remember reading somewhere that itwas a good idea to heat treat the small node free sections before trying to split them into 24 pieces. 2. Also, when going nodeless, do you always keep the butt ends marked on each piece? Do they need to be spliced as they were originally arranged in the culm? 3. If this is my first rod, am I nuts (for attempting this)? I have to admit that all my practicing (splitting, sharpening, flaming, and rough shaping) and reading about flattening and working out the bends seems to make the nodeless technique very appealing. Sorry, too many questions. Thanks in advance, Bob Mauluccibob@downandacross.com from Kirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com Thu Oct 21 16:22:49 1999 VirusWall NT);Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:21:16 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) (5.5.2448.0) Subject: Sir D? Ok I keep hearing about this Sir D Rod on the list... So what is it? Whats the length, Taper, Line wieght.... and I also saw a couple comments about nodeless can it be built with nodes? Thanks, Kirk kdbrownlee@msn.com or kirk_brownlee@jdedwards.com from hsilver@pyx.net Thu Oct 21 16:45:09 1999 Subject: Re: Advice sought. On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Art Port wrote: Harley,Go with the "Either". There'll be only you and George Gherke out thereconflicting with each other! (Great parody!)Art Danke. But alas, me thinks I'll go with Door Number Two. Quick fame andcash by climbing and stomping over others doesn't seem to be a great wayto last very long and seems a road straight to alienation. Many of us maydelight in fishing and hiking alone for extended periods but usuallyreturn to civilization once in a while. There's no sense in having peopleyou left wishing you wouldn't come back and that is easily avoidable. Mostwould sit quietly and marvel at the craftmanship of a fine split bamboorod and yet, for at least one other, there this great the headlong rush tocrank out as many of those bamboo puppies in as short a time possible.Odd. Very odd indeed. Seriously, if you already have the metalworking skills, I'd suggest doingafairly cheap graphite blank first to hone the abilities that'll make agreat piece of cane look ordinary if you don't have some practice underyour belt.The metalworking will work with the cane (really) but you needpatience and experience with the finishing to make it look GOOD. 'Courseyou could always strip the finish off and try again if it's not to yourliking.Art Too late. :)I already have one bamboo culm cut, split and the staves for the buttsection sanded and ready for planing in my forms. My great fortuneis a teacher who is patient to a fault with great hulking and clumbsy brutes like myself and I'm in no hurry. I have all winter after all tobuild my first split bamboo flyrod that will make _me_ happy. Enjoyment in working, accuracy, functionality and performance are my first concernswill be foremost. Looks will be of concern but secondary on this firstone. However, before getting out that old taper stick for setting up myforms, I still have build a new workbench in the area downstairs my wifehas most graciously donated for my mischief. Kindest Regards, Harley SilverVictus, libertas et possessio. Its really not any more complicated. from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Oct 21 16:54:53 1999 15:00:26 PDT Subject: RE: Sir D? Kirk, The taper is at this website http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.html#cattanach It is a 7' 2pc. 4 wt. which adds .002" to the 5,10,and15 inch stations of Wayne Cattanachs taper. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from stpete@netten.net Thu Oct 21 17:01:37 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Stanley 9 1/2 plane Tim and Kirk, I have a Record 9-1/2, and several older Stanleys. I find that I likeeach one for different reasons. I have seen and planed a few stripswith the new Stanleys and kinda like their adjustment mechanism better.I would have told you a year ago that I prefer my Record since it isheavier and was easier for me to keep level. Today, I'd have to saythat as my touch has improved, so has my affinity for the olderStanleys. Either plane makes a fine tool to make a rod with. I don't recommend them for making the entire rod, but if you want toshave the final .001" off the spline for the finishing touches, aStanley 60-1/2 with a sharp blade is like cutting butter with a hotknife. This plane is very pleasant to use if you are taking very finelight cuts. There are many on this list who would disagree so don't takethis as a reason to order one. But if you get a chance, try one out. It's almost a poor man's 212 scraper. Rick C. timothy troester wrote: kirk, record has a 9 1/2 in production also. howdoes it compare to the old stanley? ...or anyoneelse? timothy --- "Brownlee, Kirk" wrote: The Stanley 9 1/2 is back but it is not the samequality that the Pre 1982??I think that was the date anything before 82 was amuch finer plane. Thanks,Kirk Brownlee kdbrownlee@msn.com orKirk_Brownlee@jdedwards.com -----Original Message-----From: timothy troester Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: stanley 9 1/2 plane greetings! i recieved my new garrett wade catalogyesterday and there was a stanley 9 1/2 listed withthe planes. it was around $50. it's been myunderstanding that the 9 1/2 was taken out ofproduction in the 60's, or sometime in the passed.ifthat is the case, stanley has the plane back inproduction. does this make us happy? timothy ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ====="Gooda' morning mister bear"__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com from stpete@netten.net Thu Oct 21 17:05:41 1999 Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:11:22 -0500 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Bob and list, I, too, always heat treat my splines in addition to flaming. I usuallyflame inside and out just to make the splitting easier. Then I heattreat to the Powell method in a forced air oven. Rick C. Bob Nunley wrote: When I flame a rod it is purely for cosmetic purpose (I just like thatmottled, flamed look) and do not let that replace my heat treatingprocess.I have been told by many that I am going a step too far, and that flamingtempers the cane properly, but my heat treating process is very definedasfar as temperature, (and evenness of temp throughout my oven) and theamountof time I temper the cane. I may be wrong, but to me, flaming is not anaccurate process and cannot replace heat treating in my oven. Anythoughts? Nunley from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Oct 21 17:12:08 1999 Subject: Re: Had enough of the GG shpeel already. you learn rodmaking by doing so get off your ass and and get busy. Youcouldread all the crap on this list for the next decade and still not be able tomake a rod Jeremy Gray wrote: It sounds to me like George is trying to be the new Montague. Producingan affordable cane rod with quality that matches the price. Good forhim. I don't want to hear any more about it. I am more interested inlearning the old school methods, not buying a cheap production. Postsabout him belong somewhere else (where he can get the publicity ofpeople interested in buying his products, not on a list for makers ofrods. I subscribed to this list to learn more about how to build themthe right way, not to exchange barbs (I prefer my barbs smashed). from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 21 17:17:24 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Sir D? Mention of the taper archive web site, sent me to it immediately. I =looked for the PHY Texas General, and I find it listed as a 9" rod. I =had two of these, in 1954, and they were both 8-6" ! It's quite possible =the 9' version came along later, as I was away from this action for =several years. Does any one know anything about this ? GMA Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 4:58 PMSubject: RE: Sir D? Kirk, http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod-archive.html#cattanach It is a 7' 2pc. 4 wt. which adds .002" to the 5,10,and15 inch = Wayne Cattanachs taper. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu Mention of the taper archive web site, sent me to it = looked for the PHY Texas General, and I find it listed as a 9" rod. I = these, in 1954, and they were both 8-6" ! It's quite possible the 9' = came along later, as I was away from this action for several years. Does = know anything about this ? GMA ----- Original Message ----- MCDOWELL = Sent: Thursday, October 21, = PMSubject: RE: Sir D? http://www.uwm.edu/~stetzer/Tapers/hexrod- archive.html#cattanach&nbs= stations of Wayne Cattanachs taper.Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hsilver@pyx.net Thu Oct 21 17:27:19 1999 Subject: Re: Had enough of the GG shpeel already. Jeremy Gray wrote: ... I subscribed to this list to learn more about how to build themthe right way, not to exchange barbs (I prefer my barbs smashed). Really ?I prefer my Barbs sober, buxom, blonde, not overly exchanged andgood conversationalists. (Just kidding of course.) Oops! Requisite smiley. :) Regards, Harley SilverVictus, Libetas et possessio. Its really not any more complicated. from jcollier@siu.edu Thu Oct 21 18:36:58 1999 Subject: Lathe Which lathe is the best for turning cork & ferrules? Is the Sherline 3" bigenough? I'm on a limited budget (college student) so your help is GREATLYappreciated! John Collier from bob@downandacross.com Thu Oct 21 18:40:18 1999 Subject: nodeless replies Thanks to everyone for their help on my nodeless quest. So far, so good.Two quickies though:1. What happened to Munro? John L. doesn't respond to inquiries from his site anymore. Is he in the moving stage?2. What angles are you using for making your splicing blocks? Bob Maulucci==================================================downandacross.com productionswebsite, audio, and print designhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellularbob@downandacross.com from Turbotrk@aol.com Thu Oct 21 18:59:51 1999 Subject: Re: Node question How much pressure is too much? I have node problems also. I waswondering if a hydrolic press would be too much. Has anyone tried this? Just a thought. I have worn out one vise after three rods. stuart from saltwein@swbell.net Thu Oct 21 19:18:03 1999 (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) Subject: Re: Node question Rick, I got the point. I was just stating the way I get the pith side paralell totheenamel. I did not intend to disparage the way any one else does it. Toomany ways toskin the cat in this game. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "Rick C." wrote: Steve, You may have missed the point that Robert Kope and I were trying tomake. In those instances (which do not occur with every culm) wherethere are troublesome dips near the node (on the enamel side of thestrip), you can make flattening easier by using the drum/jig to keep thepith side PARALLEL to the enamel side. Doing this means that you arenot crushing lots of pith in order to flatten the enamel side. Doesthat make sense? Rick C. Steve Trauthwein wrote: Rick and All, I soak my strips prior to planing and working nodes. The rough areasbeneath thenodes and the pith in general planes flat in seconds, the proverbial hotknifethrough butter. No dust, don't leave the work bench were I amstraightening, nodrills or drill presses, just the zing of the plane and the jazz station inthebackground. Thank you Richard Tyree, for suggesting soaking to the list. Regards, SteveIndependence, MO "Rick C." wrote: Robert, I'm glad you chimed in. I'm sure I got my set up from your suggestionmonths ago. I will attest to the fact that this works. It is a bit oftrouble to do all strips though, so I only use it on culms that haveparticularly troublesome dips on one side of the node or other. A word of caution. I PUSH my strips through the jig set up. And onewould be well advised to wear leather gloves especially if pulling thestrip through. If the sanding drum grabs the strip, the sliding stripcan cut your fingers like a razor. Rick C.ROBT-MARY KOPE wrote: before you press it in a vise to flatten the nodes. To accomplishthis Iuse a simple jig with a small sanding drum in my drill press. After filing the ridges from the outside of the nodes and knockingthediaphragms from the inside, I split into strips and then run thestrips overthe sanding drum. My jig is simply a wood screw in a block of woodthat Iclamp to the drill press table just a little further from a 1 inchdiametersanding drum than the thickness of the strip in between nodes. ThenI pullthe strips through with the pith side against the sanding drum andtheenamel against the wood screw. This sands the surface of the pithperfectlyparallel to the enamel side for a couple of inches on either side ofthenodes, and only takes a few seconds per strip. It sure beats filing the pith and makes flattening nodes a snap. Just my $.02 Robert Kope from cattanac@wmis.net Thu Oct 21 19:22:00 1999 0000 Subject: Re: A for real question about flaming rods Mike - There are two torches that I use to flame bamboo with - one is a turbotorch system that many pro plumber use and is available from mostwholesaleplumbing supply houses - About $125 and then an LP tank on top of that.Thesecond and equally as good is The BernzOmatic model TS4000 - this torchisself igniting anf screws onto the standard 14 oz LPG tank - The last Ibought was from the local hardware - at one time Builders Square hadthembut they are history now. The cost was $45 or so.As I cautioned earlier I feel that if the single flame inexpensive toechis used that one could be flirting with danger.Another interesting sidenote - The Ts 4000 allows for use of either LPGor MAPP gas - this is a slight difference in the brown hue of the differentgases - To be exactly correct on restoration or reproductions - both Youngand Payne used gases for flaming that are no longer available - seen oftenin localized gas suppliers in earlier days. Hope this helps - fire anotherquestion if you like Wayne from noblur@stic.net Thu Oct 21 19:25:16 1999 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60503U15500L11000S0V35) Subject: Re: Lathe I started with a Unimat lathe/mill set up, in 1960. Shortly after, I =found a 10" Atlas, that had come out of a school, for $280 ! I could do =a thousand times more with the Atlas, for about the same money ! Watch =the papers, and garage sales, as you never know what you can find ! GMA Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:37 PMSubject: Lathe